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Max Domej from Gebetsktion Wien spoke to Cardinal Christoph Schonborn, Archbishop of Vienna, during his visit to Međugorje. Your Eminence, Cardinal Christoph Schonborn, it is a pure delight to meet you here, can you please tell us what has made you come here to Međugorje? Both in Lourdes and Fatima the events first ceased and than Church had its decision about that. Its final decision. Sooner or later that will take place here as well, but in this case we let Mother of God with freedom of choice... I think that Medjugorje can continue well on their journey, with full trust that Church, Mother and Teacher, in this case, is going to continue to monitor their journey. I can not exactly explain how this happened. I know about Međugorje for many years, not personally because I have not been here before, but in out Diocese and even farer I experience fruits of Međugorje. I always use to say what Jesus has said in the Gospel: “You will recognise the tree by its fruits.” When I see the fruits of Medjugorje back at home I can only say that the tree is surely good. I will just mention two little examples. At Vienna Airport, Security Check point, one of the guards recognised me, looked at my ticket and asked me if I was flying to Zagreb. I confirmed, and added from Zagreb to Split and then to Međugorje. His face immediately changed and he said: “I was in Međugorje before!” and with excitement started to talk about that. One of the guards at the Security Check point talks about Međugorje and how people are climbing the Cross Mountain, and what kind of an atmosphere is there… Another example: Early in the morning I was standing at the local train station. The manager of the station recognised me and we started talking and he entrusted me his deep pain of loosing his wife from cancer, but he immediately added how his friends took him to Međugorje and that strengthened his faith even more. He was reflecting with such a joy… Those are just two little examples amongst many, many experiences I have about Međugorje. I will just repeat what I once said in one interview: if there was something wrong about Međugorje, we would have to dismiss half of our seminarians, since so many of our priestly vocations are both directly and indirectly related to Međugorje. How did it happen that I decided to come to Međugorje? I always use to hesitate, and being Cardinal I am very exposed person in Catholic Church, and since there are many controversies and I did not want to start additional discussions, and my opinion on Međugorje was already known. But, this summer I visited community Cenacolo in Saluzzo. I know Sister Elvira for the last couple of years, I love her and respect her as the extraordinary witness of risen Lord, and I am aware of deep relationship community Cenacolo has with Međugorje. In Saluzzo, I was able to experience very strong feeling of inner security: my time to go to Međugorje has come! I would say that was a kind of inner encouragement. I expressed desire that my visit remains confidential, I simply wanted to spend time in silence and prayer. I did not want to hide my intention to come, but also did not want that to be main subject of discussions. I just wanted to come to the place where Our Lady gives so many abundant graces. Besides that, Ivan Dragičević was in Vienna last year and I spoke with him, Marija Pavlovic Lunetti this year, they were both in Cathedral of St. Stephen and I gave my permission for those events. Both of those two encounters have impressed me so much, primarily because of modesty, simplicity, clarity and heart warmness of those two visionaries. That only strengthened my decision to quietly and simply come to Međugorje. You are Dominican priest, and Dominicans are famous in the history of spreading the prayer of Rosary. What is your opinion about Rosary? As Dominican, I am supposed to pray the Rosary every day and I am a little embarrassed to admit that I am not good Dominican in that sense, since I do not manage to pray the Rosary every day. There is one thing that I can say: Rosary for me was always the prayer of the poor ones. When it comes to me personally, there are always periods of major anxieties and in those circumstances Rosary is like a rescue cord. As much as we need cords when we climb the mountain, we also need Rosary. The priest through whom I was introduced to order of Dominicans was great teacher of scholastics, true thomist of the old style, new scholastic that has always fascinated me as intellectual, as theologian, but at the same time as eager promoter of the Rosary. That is what has brought me closer to the order of Dominicans. That is what moved me as a fourteen year old boy. On one side intelligence of somebody who is interested in philosophy and theology, and on the other side simple devotion. For me, that is the main characteristics of Dominican order, of St. Dominic: St. Thomas, his Summa and Rosary. In Parish Office where Franciscans received you yesterday, really cordially and joyfully, you said you wanted to get to know that pastoral work of our Blessed Mother. Can you explain that a little please? I was always fascinated how Mother of God has pretty peculiar pastoral method that differs in a way from pastoral-theological manuals or lectures. Ever since my youth I loved Lourdes and I still love do. This is how I imagine the events in Lourdes: bishop of Tarbes town probably had his own plans and his own opinions, and then Mother of God comes, without asking local parish priest or bishop, appears at completely impossible site, in a hole, on a rock, at the river where people where not even going to, and to a girl that is illiterate, that can not even explain what Holy Trinity is, because could not learn that at her religious education class. And Our Lady appears only to her, just like that, gives her precise instructions what to do, what to say to the priests, to come in processions, to build chapel. And then she orders her to grab a piece of soil, and water gushes out… Pastoral plan of Mother of God was very precise. She knew it all exactly. That was not foreseen in the pastoral plan of the Church but has determined and changed pastoral of France and whole world. In Vatican there is grotto of Lourdes in front of which Holy Father prays. Throughout the world there are grottos of Lourdes, and people are coming and praying, doing what Our Lady told them to do. And all of that through a little girl, Bernadette, visionary and Church has recognised that. I thought, I want to see how does that look like in Međugorje today, how does Mary lead us step by step, how people experienced those beginnings here in 1981? What did Mother of God have on her mind when she decided to appear on really rugged hill to the group of wild children and to start giving them practical life guidelines, and for so many years? That is so fascinating to me! We need to think about pastoral work as well; because I can simply state that throughout the whole world Mary has proven to be best pastoral theologian. In Latin America she organised whole missions through Guadalupe where she appeared to Indian, Indian! And told him what is that he should say to his bishop. She did not say that to bishop, but to Indian. There are similar experiences in every country and that is something theologians should think about. Many faithful are discouraged because of rejection’s attitude of local bishop, and use that as excuse, so they are cut off from pastoral of that kind. As whole South America is marked with apparitions in Guadalupe, I think that similar strength should be coming out of this place. Somehow, humble faithful should be protected from any kind of mockery… I think we should fear not in that sense at all. Mother of God is best diplomat even here. Already in Kana of Galilee she had organised everything in the best way, she knows how to handle difficulties, and she is beautifully doing it for centuries already. She tells us: “Do as He tells you to do!” It is obvious that she advices us to listen to the Church. Supreme authority in the Church is Holy See, Holy Father and his Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and that is the highest authority in all of the issues of faith and morality. Supreme authority of the Church gave us clear guidelines, not directly from Holy Father himself, but from Congregation on the Doctrine of the Faith that had clearly confirmed what once bishops from Yugoslavia said, and that doubtlessly is applicable in Međugorje. I have always repeated that, those texts are very much known, there are three elements that are valid still today, and I can place my visit to Međugorje within those guidelines. In that sense, my visit is not something that is unusual at all. Holy See, in accordance with the Statement of Bishops from 1991, says the following: First: Non constat de supernaturalitatae. That is the expression that is rarely used, and means that supernaturality of the events has not been confirmed, and that is classical formulation of the church doctrine. It is not said that supernaturality was excluded, but has not, or still is not finally confirmed, and all because of one simple reason that I fully support. I am the member of the Congregation on the Doctrine of the Faith, and it is understandable that I support that, if we were to discuss it. Namely, as long as the phenomenon is still ongoing, it is normal that final decision of the Church is not going to take place yet, because something like that was never done in the past before. Both in Lourdes and Fatima the events first ceased and than Church had its decision about that. Its final decision. Sooner or later that will take place here as well, but in this case we let Mother of God with freedom of choice. Second, no official pilgrimages are to be organised, which means that I can not organise pilgrimage of my diocese to Međugorje. That is logically related to what was mentioned in the previous point. So, there is no official recognition yet, but in that formulation it is also said that supernaturality is not excluded. Church has clearly said it is not excluded. It is not confirmed, but it is not excluded. Third thing that church doctrine clearly states is, also in accordance to statement of Yugoslavian Bishops, that the faithful journeying to Međugorje require attention and pastoral care. That means that indeed pastoral care of pilgrims needs to exist, and that is the matter that many are trying to serve, Gebesaktion Wien, amongst others, who take care of pilgrims, follow them and help them even after pilgrimages. I think that in that way, Međugorje can continue well on their journey, with full trust that Church, Mother and Teacher, in this case, is going to continue to monitor their journey. I would advise for patience. Mother of God is so patient with us that for nearly 29 years here, in a very direct way, she is showing her vicinity and care for parish of Međugorje and numerous pilgrims. We can peacefully wait and have patience! Twenty nine years is a long period of time for us, but not such a long period to our God! It is really incredible that visionaries will continue to have one apparition per year until the end of their lives. I believe that Our Lady is supreme and absolute. She is coming directly from the heart of our God, her intentions and desires are surely in accordance to Holy Trinity. If she would like to express her vicinity in this way, even for the lifetime, she must have good reasons for that. Already now we can say that in these 29 years Međugorje did not loose its strength, it did not pause. We could even say, just as Franciscans mentioned yesterday, even if there wouldn’t be more apparitions, even if supernatural phenomena of this kind would stop, people would still be coming because here they feel presence of Christ and Mother of God in strong way. Just as in Lourdes where apparitions stopped 150 years ago, but presence of Mother of God did not stop. How many people in Lourdes experience nearness of Mother of God that brings them such consolation! Recently I experienced the same again: when a man goes to grotto during the night and prays at the place where Bernadette had apparitions, he can simply say: She is there! And that will continue to be the case! It is true consolation to see what is that that reflects and radiates from this place through her blessing hands and heart.
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Prigodom boravka bečkoga nadbiskupa kardinala Christopha Schönborna u Međugorju, s njim je razgovarao Max Domej, Gebetsaktion Wien U Lurdu i Fatimi Crkva je donijela svoj sud, svoj konačni sud, tek nakon što su događaji bili okončani. Do toga će i u ovom slučaju prije ili kasnije doći, ali i tu ostavljamo Majci Božjoj slobodne ruke…. Mislim da Međugorje može mirno nastaviti ići svojim putem s povjerenjem da će Crkva, Majka i Učiteljica, ovdje doista dobro pratiti put kojim se ide. Preuzvišeni gospodine Kardinale Christoph Schönborn, velika nam je čast susresti Vas ovdje u Međugorju. Možete li nam reći što vas je potaknulo na dolazak? Ne bih mogao točno opisati kako je do toga došlo. Za Međugorje znam već mnogo godina, ne osobno jer još nikada nisam bio ovdje, ali u našoj biskupiji i mnogo šire od nje doživljavam plodove Međugorja. Uvijek sam govorio jedno te isto, ono što Isus kaže u Evanđelju: stablo se po plodovima prepoznaje. Kada kod nas vidim plodove Međugorja,mogu reći da je stablo sigurno dobro. Navesti ću samo dva mala primjera. U bečkoj zračnoj luci na sigurnosnoj provjeri jedan je čuvar na mojoj karti vidio da letim u Zagreb. Prepoznao me je i upitao: „Letite u Zagreb?“ „Da, a onda dalje za Split, pa u Međugorje.“ Lice mu zablista te odvrati: „Ja sam već bio u Međugorju!“, i poče s oduševljenjem o tome pričati. Jedan od zaštitara na sigurnosnoj provjeri priča kako se ljudi uspinju na Križevac i kakvo ozračje tamo vlada… Drugi primjer: Rano ujutro stajao sam na postaji gradskoga vlaka. Ravnatelj postaje me je prepoznao. Počeli smo razgovarati, i on mi je povjerio svoj veliki jad: žena mu je umrla od raka. I odmah nadodaje: „Ali prijatelji su me odveli u Međugorje“ i to ga je osnažilo u vjeri. Zračio je takvu radost… To su samo dva mala primjera među mnogim, mnogim iskustvima koje imam u svezi s Međugorjem. Ponovit ću ono što sam pred mnogo godina rekao u jednom intervjuu: kada Međugorje ne bi bilo u redu, morali bismo izbaciti polovicu naših bogoslova, budući da su tolika naša svećenička zvanja posredno ili neposredno povezana s Međugorjem. Kako je došlo do toga da sam se odlučio doći u Međugorje? Uvijek sam oklijevao, budući da sam u svojstvu kardinala vrlo izložena osoba u Crkvi, budući da postoje brojne kontroverze a ja ne želim dati povoda raspravama, a zna se i što o Međugorju mislim. No, ovoga sam ljeta bio u Saluzzu kod zajednice Cenacolo. Sestru Elviru poznajem već nekoliko godina, volim ju i cijenim kao izvanrednog svjedoka uskrsloga Gospodina, a znam i kako je duboko Cenacolo povezan s Međugorjem. U Saluzzu sam doživio vrlo snažnu unutarnju sigurnost: došlo je vrijeme da odem u Međugorje. Rekao bih da je to bio unutarnji poticaj. Izrazio sam želju da moj dolazak ostane povjerljiv, jednostavno sam želio provesti vrijeme u tišini i molitvi. Nisam želio skrivati svoj dolazak, ali sam želio da se o tome naveliko ne priča. Jednostavno sam želio doći na mjesto gdje Gospa dijeli tolike milosti. Osim toga, prošle je godine Ivan Dragićević bio u Beču, s njim sam razgovarao, a ove godine i Marija Pavlović-Lunetti, oboje u katedrali sv. Stjepana, za što sam dao i svoje dopuštenje. Oba susreta duboko su me se dojmila zbog skromnosti, jasnoće, srdačnosti i jednostavnosti tih dvoje vidjelaca. To me je utvrdilo u odluci da sasvim jednostavno i tiho dođem ovamo. Vi ste Dominikanac, a Dominikanci su poznati u povijesti širenja krunice. Ovamo dolazi Majka Božja i moli nas da molimo krunicu. Kako vi gledate na krunicu? Kao Dominikanac zapravo bih svakoga dana trebao moliti krunicu, i malo mi je neugodno što moram priznati da u tom smislu nisam dobar Dominikanac jer ne uspijevam svakoga dana moliti krunicu. Jedno ipak mogu reći: za mene je krunica uvijek bila molitva siromaha. Što se mene osobo tiče, uvijek postoje razdoblja većih tjeskoba ili vremenskih tjesnaca, i tada je krunica poput konopa spasa. Kao što kod planinarenja trebamo konop, tako trebamo i krunicu. Svećenik preko kojega sam upoznao Dominikance bio je veliki učitelj skolastike, pravi tomist staroga kova, novoskolastik koji me je fascinirao kao intelektualac, kao teolog, ali istovremeno i kao gorljivi štovatelj i promicatelj krunice. To me je privuklo Dominikancima. To me je dirnulo još kada sam bio četrnaestogodišnji dječak. S jedne strane inteligencija intelektualca koji se zanima za filozofiju i teologiju, a s druge ta jednostavna pobožnost. Za mene je to glavna karakteristika Dominikanaca, svetoga Dominika: sveti Toma, njegova Summa, i krunica. U Župnom uredu gdje su vas jučer fratri doista srdačno i radosno primili, rekli ste da želite upoznati taj pastoral Majke Božje. Možete li to malo objasniti? Uvijek me fasciniralo da Majka Božja ima sasvim osebujnu pastoralnu metodu koja se na neki način ne obazire na pastoralno-teološke priručnike ili predavanja. Od mladosti sam volio Lurd i još ga volim. Evo kako si ja zamišljam događaje: biskup grada Tarbesa sigurno je imao svoje pastoralne planove i svoja razmišljanja, i onda dolazi Majka Božja ne pitajući ni biskupa ni mjesnoga župnika, ukazuje se na potpuno nemogućem mjestu, u jednoj udubini u nekoj stijeni, na nekoj rijeci na koju ljudi zapravo uopće ne idu, i to djevojčici koja je nepismena, koja ne može objasniti što je to Presveto Trojstvo jer to nije uspjela naučiti na vjeronauku. Samo se njoj ukazuje, samo tako… i daje joj sasvim precizne upute što treba učiniti, što treba reći svećenicima: da treba dolaziti u procesijama, da treba sagraditi kapelicu. I onda joj naređuje da zagrabi zemlju - i izvire voda… Pastoralni plan Majke Božje bio je vrlo precizan. Ona je točno znala. To uopće nije bilo predviđeno u pastoralnom planu Crkve, ali je odredilo pastoral cijele Francuske i širom svijeta. I u Vatikanu postoji lurdska špilja pred kojom moli Papa. Širom svijeta postoje lurdske špilje, i iz cijeloga svijeta dolaze ljudi i čine ono što im je Majka Božja tamo predložila. I sve to preko jedne djevojčice, Bernardice, vidjelice, i Crkva je to priznala. Pomislio sam: želim vidjeti kako to zapravo izgleda u Međugorju danas, kako nas to Marija vodi korak po korak, kako su to ljudi ovdje doživjeli, te početke 1981. godine. Što to Majka Božja ima na umu da se ukaže na tom doista nemogućem brijegu skupini divlje djece i počne im davati praktične životne upute, i to tijekom tolikih godina? To mi izgleda doista fascinantno. Treba razmisliti i o pastoralu, jer mogu sasvim jednostavno ustvrditi da je širom svijeta Majka Božja očito najbolja pastoralna teologinja. U Latinskoj Americi je organizirala cjelokupne misije preko Guadalupe gdje se ukazala Indijancu, jednom Indijancu!, i rekla mu što da kaže biskupu. Nije to rekla biskupu, nego tom Indijancu. U svakoj zemlji postoje takva iskustva, i nad time bi se teolozi zapravo trebali jako dobro zamisliti. Zbog odbijajućeg držanja mjesnog biskupa, mnogi su vjernici obeshrabreni, a to im služi i kao isprika, pa bivaju isključeni iz toga pastorala. Kao što je cijela Južna Amerika obilježena Guadalupom, mislim da s ovoga mjesta zrači izvanredna snaga. Nekako bi trebalo zaštititi pobožne vjernike od izrugivanja… Mislim da se u tom smislu ne trebamo brinuti. Majka Božja je i ovdje najbolji diplomat. Već u Kani je sve organizirala na najbolji način, ona zna kako postupati u poteškoćama, i ona to prekrasno radi već stoljećima. Kaže nam: „Činite sve što vam kaže!“ Jasno je da nam savjetuje da slušamo Crkvu. Vrhovna instanca u Crkvi je Sveta Stolica, Sveti Otac i njegova Kongregacija za nauk vjere, koja je zapravo najviša instanca u svim pitanjima vjere i morala. Vrhovna uprava Crkve dala nam je jasne upute, ne od strane samoga Pape, nego od strane Kongregacije za nauk vjere koja je jasno potvrdila ono što su svojevremeno rekli jugoslavenski biskupi, i što nesumnjivo vrijedi kao norma za Međugorje. To sam uvijek ponavljao, ti su tekstovi poznati, postoje tri elementa koji i dan danas vrijede, pa u okviru tih uputa vidim i svoj posjet Međugorju. U tom smislu moj dolazak nije nešto neobično. Sveta Stolica kaže, sukladno izjavi jugoslavenskih biskupa iz 1991.: Prvo: Non constat de supernaturalitatae. To je izraz koji se rijetko koristi, a znači da nadnaravnost događaja nije utvrđena, ali je to klasična formulacija crkvenog naučiteljstva. Ne kaže se da je nadnaravnost isključena, nego da nije – ili još nije – konačno potvrđena, i to iz sasvim jednostavnog razloga koji ja potpuno podržavam. Ja sam član Kongregacije za nauk vjere, i podrazumijeva se da to podržavam kada bi došlo do razgovora o tome, naime: dokle god fenomeni traju sigurno ne će doći do konačnog suda Crkve, jer tako nešto još nikada nije bilo učinjeno. U Lurdu i Fatimi Crkva je donijela svoj sud, svoj konačni sud, tek nakon što su događaji bili okončani. Do toga će i u ovom slučaju prije ili kasnije doći, ali i tu ostavljamo Majci Božjoj slobodne ruke. Drugo: ne smiju se organizirati nikakva službena hodočašća, dakle ja ne mogu upriličiti biskupijsko hodočašće u Međugorje. To je u logičnoj vezi s onim što je rečeno u prvoj točki. Dakle: još nema službenoga priznanja, ali je tom formulacijom sasvim jasno rečeno da nadnaravnost nije isključena. Crkva je jasno rekla: nije isključeno. Nije utvrđeno, ali nije ni isključeno. Ono treće što crkveni nauk jasno kaže, isto tako sukladno jugoslavenskim biskupima, je da hodočasnike ovdje treba duhovno pratiti. To znači da doista treba postojati pastoral hodočasnika, i oko toga se mnogi trude, među ostalima i Gebetsaktion Wien koja se brine za hodočasnike, koja ih prati, koja ih slijedi i poslije hodočašća, itd. Mislim da na taj način Međugorje može mirno nastaviti ići svojim putem s povjerenjem da će Crkva, Majka i Učiteljica, ovdje doista dobro pratiti put kojim se ide. Savjetovao bih strpljenje. Majka Božja s nama ima toliko strpljenja da već skoro 29 godina ovdje na vrlo neposredan način pokazuje svoju blizinu i brigu za župu Međugorje i za tolike hodočasnike. Mirno možemo imati strpljenja! 29 godina je dugo razdoblje, ali pred Bogom i nije tako dugo! Doista je nevjerojatno da će vidioci imati jedno godišnje ukazanje tijekom cijeloga života… Vjerujem da je Gospa - nije uzaludno da ju tako zovemo: Gospodarica - jednostavno suverena. Ona dolazi direktno iz Božjega srca, njezini naumi i njezine želje su sigurno usklađeni s Presvetim Trojstvom. Ako želi da na ovaj način, možda doživotno, izrazi svoju blizinu, za to sigurno ima dobrih razloga. Već sada možemo reći da u ovih 29 godina Međugorje nije oslabilo, da se nije ukočilo. Moglo bi se čak reći, kao što su fratri jučer rekli, čak i kada više ne bi bilo ukazanja, kada više ne bi bilo nadnaravnih fenomena ove vrste, ljudi bi i dalje dolazili i ovdje iskusili blizinu Krista i Majke Božje na snažan način, slično kao u Lurdu gdje su ukazanja prestala prije 150 godina, ali nije prestala blizina Majke Božje. Koliko ljudi u Lurdu doživi blizinu Majke Božje koja donosi takvu utjehu! Nedavno sam opet doživio isto: kada čovjek noću pođe do špilje i moli na onom mjestu gdje je Bernardica imala ukazanja, jednostavno može reći: Ona je tu. I to će zasigurno tako biti i dalje. Prava je utjeha vidjeti što sve s ovoga mjesta zrači preko njezinih blagoslivljajućih ruku i srca.