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La Croix: Did Brother Roger ever formally convert to Catholicism, as Yves Chiron, the historian, has just affirmed? Brother Alois: No. Brother Roger never “converted” formally to Catholicism. If he had, he would have said so; for he never hid anything about the path he was following. All through his books, often written in the form of a journal, he explained as he went along what he was discovering and what he was living. What exactly happened in 1972, in the chapel of the bishop’s house in Autun? In 1972, the then Bishop of Autun, Mgr Armand Le Bourgeois, simply gave him communion for the first time, without requiring any other profession of faith from him besides the Creed recited during the Eucharist, and which is held in common by all Christians. Several witnesses were present, three of my brothers, a couple who are friends of ours; they can attest to this. Why at that precise moment? That date was chosen because Brother Roger was preparing to receive the life commitment of the first Catholic brother of the community and it was unthinkable not to receive communion at the same Eucharistic table. Several months later, Mgr Le Bourgeois came to Taizé and, in the same way, gave communion to all the brothers of the community. Did Brother Roger himself testify explicitly to that development? He understood very early in his life that in order to pass on the Gospel to young people a reconciliation of Christians was necessary. After John XXIII and the Second Vatican Council, he considered that the time for reconciliation had come. He often told how, during his last meeting with John XXIII, in 1963, he was eager to hear a spiritual testament from the pope and he asked him about the place of Taizé in the Church. John XXIII replied, making circular gestures with his hands, “The Catholic Church is made of concentric circles that are always bigger and bigger.” The pope did not specify in which circle he saw Taizé but Brother Roger understood that the pope wanted to say to him: you are already within, continue simply on this path. And that is what he did. You were close to him for many years; he even designated you as his successor, what was really at issue for Brother Roger in this way that he followed? The way that he followed led him more and more to discover and bring to light the fullness of the tradition of the Church. He was not interested in an individual solution for reconciliation but, through many tentative steps, he sought which way could be accessible for others. Of Protestant origin, he accomplished something that was without precedent since the Reformation. In 1980, during a European young adult meeting in Rome, he expressed this publicly in the following terms in Saint Peter’s Basilica, in presence of Pope John Paul II, “I have found my own identity as a Christian by reconciling within myself the faith of my origins with the mystery of the Catholic faith, without breaking fellowship with anyone.” Receiving an Orthodox delegation one day, John Paul II later spoke of a communion that is “neither absorption, nor fusion, but a meeting in truth and in love”. Why was there so much discretion around something he wanted to be a testimony? Since his approach was progressive and completely new, it was difficult to express and to understand. It was easy to misinterpret it. Thus, to speak in terms of “conversion” is not to understand the originality of what Brother Roger was seeking. The word “conversion” is weighed down with history; “conversion” implies a break with your origins. Brother Roger accepted that for some an individual conversion might be a way, but for himself and for our community he preferred to speak of communion. For him, entering progressively into a full communion with the Catholic Church was given concrete expression in two points he never kept secret: receiving the Eucharist and recognizing the necessity of a ministry of unity exercised by the Bishop of Rome. Even at the price of still being misunderstood? Brother Roger’s aims have not been understood by everyone, but they have been welcomed by many; by Pope John Paul II, by Catholic bishops and theologians who have come to celebrate the Eucharist at Taizé, and also by leaders of Protestant and Orthodox Churches with whom Brother Roger patiently built up trust in the course of many years. Interview by Jean-Marie GUENOIS
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La Croix: Je li se brat Roger ikada formalno preobratio na katoličanstvo, kako to tvrdi povjesničar Yves Chiron? brat Alois: Ne. Brat Roger nikada se nije formalno «preobratio» a katoličanstvo. Da jest, on bi to rekao; budući da nikada nije skrivao ništa o putu koji je slijedio. U svojim knjigama, često pisanima u dnevničkoj formi, objasnio je što je na svom putu otkrivao i što je živio. Što se točno dogodilo 1972., u kapeli biskupove kuće u Autunu? Mu je tadašnji biskup Autuna, Mgr Armand Le Bourgeois, jednostavno prvi put dao pričest, ne tražeći nikakav drugi dokaz vjere od njega, osim Vjerovanja koje se molilo tijekom Euharistije, a koje je zajedničko svim kršćanima. Tome je prisustvovalo više svjedoka, trojica moje braće, nekoliko naših prijatelja i oni to mogu potvrditi. Zašto baš u tom trenutku? Taj je datum izabran jer se brat Roger pripremao primiti doživotne zavjete prvog katoličkoga brata u Zajednici i bilo je nezamislivo ne primiti pričest za istim euharistijskim stolom. Nekoliko mjeseci kasnije, Mgr Le Bourgeois došao je u Taizé i na isti način dao pričest svoj braći Zajednice. Je li se brat Roger osobno izjasnio o ovom razvoju? On je vrlo rano shvatio da je, kako bi se mladima prenosilo Evanđelje, nužno pomirenje kršćana. Nakon Ivana XXIII. i Drugog vatikanskog koncila, smatrao je da je vrijeme za pomirenje došlo. Često je pričao kako je, tijekom svog posljednjeg susreta s Ivanom XXIII.1963. godine, željno iščekivao papino duhovno svjedočanstvo i pitao ga je o mjestu Taizéa u Crkvi. Ivan XXIII. mu je odgovorio, kružno gestikulirajući rukama: «Katolička se Crkva sastoji od koncentričnih krugova koji su sve veći i veći». Papa nije precizirao u kojem je krugu vidio Taizé, no brat Roger je shvatio kako mu papa želi reći: vi ste već unutra, jednostavno nastavite tim putem. A to je i činio. Bili ste puno godina bliski s njim; čak vas je imenovao svojim nasljednikom, što je bratu Rogeru bilo doista važno na putu koji je slijedio? Put koji je slijedio vodio ga je sve više otkrivanju i rasvjetljavanju punoće tradicije Crkve. Nije ga zanimalo individualno rješenje pomirenja, nego je u puno pokušaja tragao za načinom na koji bi ono moglo postati prihvatljivo i drugima. Protestantskog porijekla, postigao je nešto što je bilo bez presedana od reformacije. 1980. je godine, tijekom Europskog susreta mladih u Rimu, to javno izjavio u Bazilici svetoga Petra, u nazočnosti pape Ivana Pavla II. sljedećim riječima: «Pronašao sam svoj identitet kao kršćanin pomirivši u sebi vjeru svojih korijena s otajstvom katoličke vjere, ne raskidajući vezu ni s jednom od njih». Primivši pravoslavnu delegaciju jednom je prilikom kasnije Ivan Pavao II. govorio o zajedništvu koje nije «ni preuzimanje, ni pripajanje nego susret u istini i ljubavi». Čemu toliko tajnovitosti oko nečega što je želio učiniti svjedočanstvom? Kako je njegov pristup bio napredan i potpuno nov, bilo ga je teško izraziti i razumjeti. Bilo ga je lako krivo protumačiti. Tako, govorenje o pojmu «obraćenje» znači ne razumjeti originalnost koju je tražio brat Roger. Težina riječi «obraćenje» kroz povijest je umanjena; obraćenje podrazumijeva prekid sa svojim korijenima. Brat Roger je prihvaćao da bi za neke pojedinačno obraćenje mogao biti put, no za sebe i našu zajednicu radije je govorio o zajedništvu. Za njega, postupno ulaženje u puno zajedništvo s Katoličkom Crkvom dobivalo je konkretan izraz u dvije točke koje nikada nije tajio: primanje Euharistije i prepoznavanje potrebe za službom zajedništva koju obnaša rimski biskup. Čak i pod cijenu da će još biti krivo shvaćen? Ciljeve brata Rogera nisu razumjeli svi, no mnogi su ih prihvaćali; papa Ivan Pavao II, katolički biskupi i teolozi koji su dolazili slaviti Euharistiju u Taizé, a također i vođe protestantskih i pravoslavnih Crkava s kojima je brat Roger strpljivo gradio povjerenje kroz mnoge godine. Intervju: Jean-Marie GUENOIS