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Subtitles and Transcript Transcribed by Timothy Covell Reviewed by Morton Bast 0:11 This story starts: I was at a friend's house, and she had on her shelf a copy of the DSM manual, which is the manual of mental disorders. It lists every known mental disorder. And it used to be, back in the '50s, a very slim pamphlet. And then it got bigger and bigger and bigger, and now it's 886 pages long. And it lists currently 374 mental disorders. 0:37 So I was leafing through it, wondering if I had any mental disorders, and it turns out I've got 12. (Laughter) I've got generalized anxiety disorder, which is a given. I've got nightmare disorder, which is categorized if you have recurrent dreams of being pursued or declared a failure -- and all my dreams involve people chasing me down the street going, "You're a failure." (Laughter) I've got parent-child relational problems, which I blame my parents for. (Laughter) I'm kidding. I'm not kidding. I'm kidding. And I've got malingering. And I think it's actually quite rare to have both malingering and generalized anxiety disorder, because malingering tends to make me feel very anxious. 1:24 Anyway I was looking through this book, wondering if I was much crazier than I thought I was, or maybe it's not a good idea to diagnose yourself with a mental disorder if you're not a trained professional, or maybe the psychiatry profession has a strange desire to label what's essentially normal human behavior as a mental disorder. I didn't know which of these things was true, but I thought it was kind of interesting. And I thought maybe I should meet a critic of psychiatry to get their view. Which is how I ended up having lunch with the Scientologists. 1:56 It was a man called Brian who runs a crack team of Scientologists who are determined to destroy psychiatry wherever it lies. They're called the CCHR. And I said to him, "Can you prove to me that psychiatry is a pseudo-science that can't be trusted?" And he said, "Yes, we can prove it to you." And I said, "How?" And he said, "We're going to introduce you to Tony." And I said, "Who's Tony?" And he said, "Tony's in Broadmoor." Now Broadmoor is Broadmoor Hospital. It used to be known as the Broadmoor Asylum for the Criminally Insane. It's where they send the serial killers and the people who can't help themselves. And I said to Brian, "What did Tony do?" And he said, "Hardly anything. He beat someone up or something, and he decided to fake madness to get out of a prison sentence. But he faked it too well, and now he's stuck in Broadmoor and nobody will believe he's sane. Do you want us to try and get you into Broadmoor to meet Tony?" So I said, "Yes, please." 3:05 So I got the train to Broadmoor. I began to yawn uncontrollably around Kempton Park, which apparently is what dogs also do when anxious -- they yawn uncontrollably. And we got to Broadmoor. And I got taken through gate after gate after gate after gate into the wellness center, which is where you get to meet the patients. It looks like a giant Hampton Inn. It's all peach and pine and calming colors. And the only bold colors are the reds of the panic buttons. And the patients started drifting in. And they were quite overweight and wearing sweatpants and quite docile looking. And Brian the Scientologist whispered to me, "They're medicated," which to the Scientologists is like the worst evil in the world, but I'm thinking it's probably a good idea. (Laughter) 4:00 And then Brian said, "Here's Tony." And a man was walking in. And he wasn't overweight, he was in very good physical shape. And he wasn't wearing sweatpants, he was wearing a pinstriped suit. And he had his arm outstretched like someone out of The Apprentice. He looked like a man who wanted to wear an outfit that would convince me that he was very sane. 4:25 And he sat down. And I said, "So is it true that you faked your way in here?" And he said, "Yep. Yep. Absolutely. I beat someone up when I was 17. And I was in prison awaiting trial, and my cellmate said to me, 'You know what you have to do? Fake madness. Tell them you're mad. You'll get sent to some cushy hospital. Nurses will bring you pizzas. You'll have your own Playstation.'" So I said, "Well how did you do it?" He said, "I asked to see the prison psychiatrist. And I'd just seen a film called 'Crash' in which people get sexual pleasure from crashing cars into walls. So I said to the psychiatrist, 'I get sexual pleasure from crashing cars into walls.'" And I said, "What else?" He said, "Oh, yeah. I told the psychiatrist that I wanted to watch women as they died because it would make me feel more normal." And I said, "Where'd you get that from?" He said, "Oh, from a biography of Ted Bundy that they had at the prison library." 5:20 Anyway he faked madness too well, he said. And they didn't send him to some cushy hospital. They sent him to Broadmoor. And the minute he got there, he said he took one look at the place, asked to see the psychiatrist, said, "There's been a terrible misunderstanding. I'm not mentally ill." I said, "How long have you been here for?" He said, "Well, if I'd just done my time in prison for the original crime, I'd have got five years. I've been in Broadmoor for 12 years." 5:51 Tony said that it's a lot harder to convince people you're sane than it is to convince them you're crazy. He said, "I thought the best way to seem normal would be to talk to people normally about normal things like football or what's on TV. I subscribe to New Scientist, and recently it had an article about how the U.S. Army was training bumblebees to sniff out explosives. So I said to a nurse, 'Did you know that the U.S. army is training bumblebees to sniff out explosives?' When I read my medical notes, I saw they'd written: 'Believes bees can sniff out explosives.'" He said, "You know, they're always looking out for non-verbal clues to my mental state. But how do you sit in a sane way? How do you cross your legs in a sane way? It's just impossible." And when Tony said that to me, I thought to myself, "Am I sitting like a journalist? Am I crossing my legs like a journalist?" 6:46 He said, "You know, I've got the Stockwell Strangler on one side of me and I've got the 'Tiptoe Through the Tulips' rapist on the other side of me. So I tend to stay in my room a lot because I find them quite frightening. And they take that as a sign of madness. They say it proves that I'm aloof and grandiose." So only in Broadmoor would not wanting to hang out with serial killers be a sign of madness. Anyway he seemed completely normal to me -- but what did I know? 7:14 And when I got home I emailed his clinician, Anthony Maden. I said, "What's the story?" And he said, "Yep. We accept that Tony faked madness to get out of a prison sentence because his hallucinations that had seemed quite cliché to begin with just vanished the minute he got to Broadmoor. However, we have assessed him. And we have determined that what he is is a psychopath." And in fact, faking madness is exactly the kind of cunning and manipulative act of a psychopath. It's on the checklist: cunning and manipulative. So faking your brain going wrong is evidence that your brain has gone wrong. And I spoke to other experts, and they said the pinstriped suit -- classic psychopath. Speaks to items one and two on the checklist -- glibness, superficial charm and grandiose sense of self-worth. And I said, "Well, what, he didn't want to hang out with the other patients?" Classic psychopath -- it speaks to grandiosity and also lack of empathy. So all the things that had seemed most normal about Tony was evidence, according to his clinician, that he was mad in this new way. He was a psychopath. 8:21 And his clinician said to me, "If you want to know more about psychopaths, you can go on a psychopath spotting course run by Robert Hare who invented the psychopath checklist." So I did. I went on a psychopath spotting course, and I am now a certified -- and I have to say, extremely adept -- psychopath spotter. 8:43 So here's the statistics: One in a hundred regular people is a psychopath. So there's 1,500 people in his room. Fifteen of you are psychopaths. Although that figure rises to four percent of CEO's and business leaders. So I think there's a very good chance there's about 30 or 40 psychopaths in this room. It could be carnage by the end of the night. 9:16 (Laughter) (Laughs) 9:19 Hare said the reason why is because capitalism at its most ruthless rewards psychopathic behavior -- the lack of empathy, the glibness, cunning, manipulative. In fact, capitalism, perhaps at its most remorseless, is a physical manifestation of psychopathy. It's like a form of psychopathy that's come down to affect us all. And Hare said to me, "You know what? Forget about some guy at Broadmoor who may or may not have faked madness. Who cares? That's not a big story. The big story," he said, "is corporate psychopathy. You want to go and interview yourself some corporate psychopaths." 10:01 So I gave it a try. I wrote to the Enron people. I said, "Could I come and interview you in prison to find out it you're psychopaths?" And they didn't reply. So I changed tack. I emailed "Chainsaw Al" Dunlap, the asset stripper from the 1990s. He would come into failing businesses and close down 30 percent of the workforce, just turn American towns into ghost towns. And I emailed him and I said, "I believe you may have a very special brain anomaly that makes you special and interested in the predatory spirit and fearless. Can I come and interview you about your special brain anomaly?" And he said, "Come on over." 10:47 So I went to Al Dunlap's grand Florida mansion that was filled with sculptures of predatory animals. There were lions and tigers. He was taking me through the garden. There were falcons and eagles. He was saying to me, "Over there you've got sharks." He was saying this in a less effeminate way. "You've got more sharks and you've got tigers." It was like Narnia. 11:13 (Laughter) 11:17 And then we went into his kitchen. Now Al Dunlap would be brought in to save failing companies. He'd close down 30 percent of the workforce. And he'd quite often fire people with a joke. For instance, one famous story about him, somebody came up to him and said, "I've just bought myself a new car." And he said, "You may have a new car, but I'll tell you what you don't have, a job." 11:42 So in his kitchen -- he was standing there with his wife, Judy, and his bodyguard Sean -- and I said, "You know how I said in my email that you might have a special brain anomaly that makes you special?" He said, "Yeah, it's an amazing theory. It's like Star Trek. You're going where no man has gone before." And I said, "Well, some psychologists might say that this makes you ... " (Mumbles) (Laughter) And he said, "What?" And I said, "A psychopath." And I said, "I've got a list of psychopathic traits in my pocket. Can I go through them with you?" 12:19 And he looked intrigued despite himself, and he said, "Okay, go on." And I said, "Okay. Grandiose sense of self-worth." Which, I have to say, would have been hard for him to deny because he was standing underneath a giant oil painting of himself. (Laughter) He said, "Well, you've got to believe in you!" And I said, "Manipulative." He said, "That's leadership." And I said, "Shallow affect: an inability to experience a range of emotions." He said, "Who wants to be weighed down by some nonsense emotions?" So he was going down the psychopathic checklist, basically turning it into "Who Moved My Cheese?" 13:00 (Laughter) 13:04 But I did notice something happening to me the day I was with Al Dunlap. Whenever he said anything to me that was kind of normal -- like he said no to juvenile delinquency. He said he got accepted into West Point, and they don't let delinquents in West Point. He said no to many short-term marital relationships. He's only ever been married twice. Admittedly, his first wife cited in her divorce papers that he once threatened her with a knife and said he always wondered what human flesh tasted like, but people say stupid things to each other in bad marriages in the heat of an argument and his second marriage has lasted 41 years. So whenever he said anything to me that just seemed kind of non-psychopathic, I thought to myself, well I'm not going to put that in my book. And then I realized that becoming a psychopath spotter had turned me a little bit psychopathic. Because I was desperate to shove him in a box marked psychopath. I was desperate to define him by his maddest edges. 14:01 And I realized, oh my God. This is what I've been doing for 20 years. It's what all journalists do. We travel across the world with our notepads in our hands, and we wait for the gems. And the gems are always the outermost aspects of our interviewee's personality. And we stitch them together like medieval monks. And we leave the normal stuff on the floor. And this is a country that over-diagnoses certain mental disorders hugely. Childhood bipolar -- children as young as four are being labeled bipolar because they have temper tantrums, which scores them high on their bipolar checklist. 14:44 When I got back to London, Tony phoned me. He said, "Why haven't you been returning my calls?" I said, "Well they say that you're a psychopath." And he said, "I'm not a psychopath." He said, "You know what, one of the items on the checklist is lack of remorse, but another item on the checklist is cunning, manipulative. So when you say you feel remorse for your crime, they say, 'Typical of the psychopath to cunningly say he feels remorse when he doesn't.' It's like witchcraft. They turn everything upside-down." He said, "I've got a tribunal coming up. Will you come to it?" So I said okay. 15:21 So I went to his tribunal. And after 14 years in Broadmoor, they let him go. They decided that he shouldn't be held indefinitely because he scores high on a checklist that might mean that he would have a greater than average chance of recidivism. So they let him go. And outside in the corridor he said to me, "You know what, Jon? Everyone's a bit psychopathic." He said, "You are. I am. Well obviously I am." I said, "What are you going to do now?" He said, "I'm going to go to Belgium because there's a woman there that I fancy. But she's married, so I'm going to have to get her split up from her husband." 16:02 (Laughter) 16:06 Anyway, that was two years ago, and that's where my book ended. And for the last 20 months everything was fine. Nothing bad happened. He was living with a girl outside London. He was, according to Brian the Scientologist, making up for lost time -- which I know sounds ominous, but isn't necessarily ominous. Unfortunately, after 20 months, he did go back to jail for a month. He got into a fracas in a bar, he called it -- ended up going to jail for a month, which I know is bad, but at least a month implies that whatever the fracas was, it wasn't too bad. 16:45 And then he phoned me. And you know what, I think it's right that Tony is out. Because you shouldn't define people by their maddest edges. And what Tony is, is he's a semi-psychopath. He's a gray area in a world that doesn't like gray areas. But the gray areas are where you find the complexity, it's where you find the humanity and it's where you find the truth. And Tony said to me, "Jon, could I buy you a drink in a bar? I just want to thank you for everything you've done for me." And I didn't go. What would you have done? 17:31 Thank you. 17:32 (Applause)
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Subtitles and Transcript Translated by Barbara Dolenčić Reviewed by Suzana Barić 0:11 Priča ovako počinje: bio sam kod prijateljice i ona je na polici imala DSM priručnik -- priručnik o mentalnim poremećajima. To je popis svih poznatih mentalnih poremećaja. U 50- ima je to bio veoma tanka knjižica. I onda je postajao sve veći i veći, pa sad ima 886 stranica. Trenutno broji 374 mentalna poremećaja. 0:37 Listao sam priručnik pitajući se imam li ja koji mentalni poremećaj i ispalo je da ih imam 12. (Smijeh) Imam opći anksiozni poremećaj, to se podrazumijeva. Imam poremećaj spavanja s noćnim morama, što je kategorizirano kao stalno sanjanje progonjenja ili nekog neuspjeha -- i svi moji snovi uključuju ljude koji me love po ulici pritom govoreći: ''Ti si neuspjeh.'' (Smijeh) Imam problem s odnosom roditelj-dijete, za što krivim svoje roditelje. (Smijeh) Šalim se. Ne šalim se. Ma, šalim se. Još sam i simulant. I mislim da je zapravo jako rijetko da je netko i simulant i da boluje i od općeg anksioznog poremećaja, zato što me simuliranje čini jako tjeskobnim. 1:24 I tako sam listao ovu knjigu, pitajući se jesam li sam luđi nego što sam mislio da jesam, ili možda nije dobra ideja dijagnosticirati sam sebi mentalne poremećaje ako niste obrazovani stručnjak, ili možda psihijatrijska profesija ima neobičnu želju etiketirati normalno ljudsko ponašanje kao mentalni poremećaj. Nisam znao što je od toga točno, ali sam mislio da je zanimljivo. I pomislio sam da bih se trebao susresti s kritičarem psihijatarije kako bih shvatio njihov pogled. Tako sam završio na ručku sa Scijentolozima. 1:56 To je bio Brian, čovjek koji vodi odličan tim Scijentologa koji su odlučni uništiti psihijatriju. Zovu se CCHR. Pitao sam ga: ''Možete li mi dokazati da je psihijatrija kvazi-znanost kojoj se ne može vjerovati?'' A on je rekao: ''Da, možemo ti to dokazati.'' Upitao sam: ''Kako?'' Odgovorio je: ''Upoznat ćemo te s Tonyjem.'' Ja sam pitao: ''Tko je Tony?'' A on je rekao: ''Tony je u Broadmooru." Broadmoor je bolnica. Prije je bila poznata kao Broadmoor azil za mentalno bolesne kriminalce. To je mjesto gdje šalju serijske ubojice i ljude koji ne mogu pomoći sami sebi. Pitao sam Briana: ''Što je Tony učinio?'' A on je rekao: ''Gotovo ništa.' Pretukao je nekoga ili tako nešto i odlučio je odglumiti da je lud kako bi izbjegao zatvorsku kaznu. Ali predobro je odglumio i sad je zapeo u Broadmooru i nitko ne želi povjerovati da je zdrav. Želiš da te pokušamo ubaciti u Broadmoor da upoznaš Tonyja? Rekao sam: ''Da, molim te.'' 3:05 Ušao sam na vlak za Broadmoor. Počeo sam nekontrolirano zijevati negdje kod Kempton Parka, što navodno čine i psi kad su nervozni -- nekontrolirano zijevaju. I stigli smo u Broadmoor. Vodili su me kroz niz vrata, jedna za drugima, do wellness centra gdje možete upoznati pacijente. Izgleda kao veliki hotel Hampton Inn. Posvuda su boja breskve, borova i ostale umirujuće boje. I jedine žarke boje su crveni gumbi za uzbunu. Pacijenti su počeli dolaziti. Svi su bili prilično debeli i obučeni u trenirke i izgledi su pitomo. Scijentolog Brian šapnuo mi je: ''Pod lijekovima su'', što je za scijentologe najveće zlo na svijetu, ali ja sam mislio da je to vjerojatno dobra ideja. (Smijeh) 4:00 Tad je Brain rekao: ''Evo Tonya.'' Ušao je čovjek koji nije bio debeo, bio je u vrlo dobroj fizičkoj formi. I nije bio obučen u trenirku, već je nosio odijelo na prugice. Ispružio je ruku poput nekog iz emisije Pripravnik. Izgledao je kao čovjek koji želi nositi odijelo kako bi me uvjerio da je potpuno zdrav. 4:25 Sjeo je. Pitao sam ga: ''Je li istina da si odglumio kako bi došao ovdje?'' Odgovorio je: ''Da. Zbilja. Pretukao sam nekoga kad mi je bilo 17. U zatvoru sam čekao suđenje kad mi je moj cimer iz ćelije rekao: ''Znaš li što moraš napraviti'? Glumiti da si lud. Reci im da si lud. Poslat će te u neku udobnu bolnicu. Sestre će ti donositi pizze. Imat ćeš svoj Playstation.'' Pa sam ga pitao: ''I, kako si to učinio?'' Odgovorio je: ''Javio sam se zatvorskom psihijatru. A baš sam bio pogledao film ''Fatalna nesreća" u kojem ljude seksualno uzbuđuje zalijetanje autom u zid. Pa sam rekao psihijatru: ''Seksualno me uzbuđuje zalijetanje autom u zid.'' Pitao sam ga: ''Što još?'' On je rekao: ''O, da. Rekao sam psihijatru da želim gledati žene kako umiru zato što se onda osjećam normalnijim.'' Zatim sam pitao: ''Otkud ti ta ideja?'' I on je odgovorio: ''Iz biografije Teda Bundyja koja je bila u zatvorskoj knjižnici.'' 5:20 Rekao mi je da je predobro odglumio ludost. I nisu ga poslali u neku udobnu bolnicu. Poslali su ga u Broadmoor. Istog trena kad je stigao, pogledao je to mjesto, zatražio razgovor sa psihijatrom i rekao: ''Došlo je velikog nesporazuma. Ja nisam mentalno bolestan." Pitao sam: ''Koliko dugo si ovdje?'' Odgovorio je: ''Da sam u zatvoru služio kaznu za svoj zločin, dobio bih pet godina. U Broadmooru sam 12 godina." 5:51 Tony je rekao da je mnogo teže uvjeriti ljude da si normalan, nego uvjeriti ih da si lud. Rekao je: ''Mislio sam da je najbolji način da izgledam normalno da razgovaram s ljudima na normalan način o normalnim stvarima poput nogometa ili o televizijskom programu.¸ Pretplaćen sam na New Scientist i nedavno su objavili članak o tome kako američka vojska trenira bumbare da nanjuše eksploziv. Rekao sam sestri: ''Znaš li da američka vojska trenira bumbare da nanjuše ekspoloziv?'' Kad sam čitao svoje nalaze, vidio sam da su napisali: ''Vjeruje da bumbari mogu nanjušiti eksploziv.'' Rekao je: ''Znaš, uvijek traže neverbalne tragove mog mentalnog stanja. Ali kako sjediti na normalan način? Kako prekrižiti noge na normalan način? To je jednostavno nemoguće.'' Kad mi je to Tony rekao, pomislio sam: ''Sjedim li kao novinar? Jesam li prekrižio noge kao novinar?'' 6:46 Rekao je: ''Znaš, s jedne mi je strane davitelj, a s druge strane silovatelj. Bojim ih se pa zato često ostajem u svojoj sobi. A oni to vide kao znak ludosti. Kažu da to dokazuje da sam ravnodušan i da patim od osjećaja grandioznosti.'' Samo je u Broadmooru znak ludosti to što se ne želite družiti sa serijskim ubojicama. Meni se činilo potpuno normalnim -- ali, što sam ja znao? 7:14 Kad sam došao doma, poslao sam e-mail njegovu liječniku, Anthonyju Madenu. Pitao sam ga: "Što je na stvari?" Odgovorio je: "Prihvaćamo da je Tony glumio da je lud kako bi izbjegao zatvorsku kaznu zato što su njegove halucinacije koje su se činile klišejem jednostavno nestale istog trena kad je stigao u Broadmoor. No, prošao je našu procjenu i zaključili smo da je on psihopat.'' U biti, glumljenje ludosti je upravo podmukao i manipulativan čin psihopata. To je na listi: podmukao i manipulativan. Dakle, glumljenje da ste ludi dokaz je da je vaš mozak otišao k vragu. Razgovarao sam i s drugim stručnjacima i rekli su: "Prugasto odijelo -- klasični psihopat. Doprinosi prvoj i drugoj stvari na popisu -- rječitost, površan šarm i grandiozan osjećaj samovrijednosti. Rekao sam: ''Pa što ako se nije družio s ostalim zatvorenicima?'' Klasični psihopat -- objašnjava osjećaj grandioznosti i nedostatak empatije. Sve stvari koje su se činile najnormalnijima u vezi Tonyja bile su dokaz, prema njegovim liječnicima, da je on lud. On je psihopat. 8:21 Njegovi liječnici rekli su mi: ''Ako želiš znati više o psihopatima, možeš ići na tečaj uočavanja psihopata koji vodi Robert Hare koji je smislio listu obilježja psihopata." Pa sam to i učinio. Otišao sam na tečaj uočavanja psihopata, i sad sam potvrđeni -- i moram reći, iznimno vješt -- uočavatelj psihopata. 8:43 Evo statistike: Jedan od sto normalnih ljudi je psihopat. U ovoj prostoriji je 1,500 ljudi. Petnaest od vas su psihopati. Taj iznos raste do četiri posto među menadžerima i šefovima. Zato mislim da je velika vjerojatnost da je u ovoj prostoriji 30 ili 40 psihopata. Moglo bi doći do pokolja do kraja večeri. 9:16 (Smijeh) (Smije se) 9:19 Hare kaže da je to zato što nemilosrdni kapitalizam nagrađuje psihopatsko ponašanje-- nedostatak empatije, rječitost, prepredenost, manipulativnost. U biti, kapitalizam je, u svom najnemilosrdnijem obliku, fizička manifestacija psihopatije. To je oblik psihopatije koji će imati utjecaja na sve nas. Hare mi je rekao: ''Znaš što? Zaboravi na tog tipa u Broadmooru koji možda jest ili možda nije glumio da je lud. Koga briga? To nije velika priča." Rekao je: "Velika priča je korporativna psihopatija. Trebaš intervjuirati korporativne psihopate.'' 10:01 Pa sam pokušao. Pisao sam ljudima u Enronu. Pitao sam: ''Mogu li doći i intervjuirati vas u zatvoru da saznam jeste li psihopati?'' Nisu mi odgovorili. Pa sam promijenio taktiku. Poslao sam e-mail "Chainsaw Al" Dunlapu koji je rasprodavao imovinu 1990-ih. Preuzeo bi propadajuće tvrtke i zatvorio 30 posto proizvodnje, pretvorio bi američke gradove u gradove duhova. Poslao sam mu e-mail i rekao: ''Vjerujem da imate vrlo posebnu anomaliju mozga koja Vas čini posebnim i zato Vas zanima predatorski duh i neustrašivost. Mogu li doći i intervjuirati Vas o Vašoj posebnoj anomaliji mozga?'' A on je rekao: ''Dođi.'' 10:47 I tako sam otišao u veliku vilu Ala Dunlapa na Floridi koja je bila puna skulptura grabežljivih životinja. Ondje su bili lavovi i tigrovi. Vodio me kroz vrt. Ondje su bili sokoli i orlovi. Rekao mi je: ''Ondje su morski psi.'' To je govorio na nešto manje otmjen način. ''Ondje ima još morskih pasa i tigrova.'' Bilo je kao u Narniji. 11:17 Onda smo otišli u njegovu kuhinju. Ala Dunlapa pozvali bi kako bi spasio propadajuće tvrtke. A on bi zatvorio 30 posto proizvodnje. I vrlo često bi otpustio ljude uz šalu. Na primjer, zna se da mu je netko prišao i rekao: ''Upravo sam si kupio novi auto.'' I on bi mu rekao: ''Možda imaš novi auto, ali reći ću ti što nemaš, posao.'' 11:42 Dakle, u kuhinji-- stajao je tamo sa svojom ženom, Judy, i tjelohraniteljem Seanom. Rekao sam: ''Znate kako sam u svom e-mailu rekao da Vi možda imate posebnu anomaliju mozga koja Vas čini posebnim?'' Odgovorio je: ''Da, to je nevjerojatna teorija. Kao u Zvjezdanim stazama. Idete tamo gdje ni jedan čovjek prije nije išao." Ja sam rekao: ''Pa, neki psiholozi bi mogli reći da Vas to čini...'' (Mrmljanje) (Smijeh) Rekao je: ''Što?'' Odgovorio sam: ''Psihopatom.'' Dodao sam: ''Imam popis psihopatskih karakteristika u svom džepu. Mogu li s Vama proći kroz njih?'' 12:19 Izgledao je zaintrigirano i rekao: ''U redu, nastavite.'' Krenuo sam: ''U redu. Grandiozan osjećaj samovrijednosti.'' To bi mu bilo teško zanijekati zato što je stajao ispod ogromne slike samoga sebe. (Smijeh) Rekao je: ''Pa, moraš vjerovati u sebe!'' Nastavio sam: ''Manipulativnost.'' On je rekao: ''To je vodstvo.'' A ja sam rekao: ''Površnost: nesposobnost osjećati široki spektar emocija.'' On je rekao: ''Tko želi da ga sputavaju besmislene emocije?'' I tako je prolazio kroz popis obilježja psihopata, i zapravo je sve postalo slično čitanju motivacijske knjige. 13:04 No, primjetio sam da mi se nešto dogodilo tog dana koji sam proveo s Alom Dunlopom. Kad god bi mi rekao bilo što što je donekle normalno -- kao što je govorio protiv maloljetničke delikvencije. Pričao je da su ga primili u West Point, i delikvente ne primaju u West Point. Ne slaže se s kratkotrajnim brakovima. On se ženio samo dva puta. Njegova prva žena navela je u papirima za razvod da joj je jedanput prijetio nožem i rekao da ga je oduvijek zanimalo kakvog je okusa ljudsko meso, ali ljudi si kažu gluposti u lošim brakovima u žaru svađe. Njegov drugi brak trajao je 41 godinu. Kad god bi mi rekao nešto što mi se nije činilo psihopatskim, pomislio sam kako to neću napisati u svojoj knjizi. I onda sam shvatio da me činjenica da sam postao uočavatelj psihopata i samog pomalo pretvorila u psihopata. Zato što sam očajnički htio prikazati ga kao psihopata. Očajnički sam želio definirati ga samo njegovim najluđim crtama. 14:01 I shvatio sam da je to ono što radim već 20 godina. To je ono što svi novinari rade. Putujemo svijetom s našim notesima u rukama i čekamo bisere. A biseri su uvijek najdalji aspekti osobnosti onoga koga intervjuiramo. Mi ih šivamo kao srednjovjekovni redovnici. I ostavljamo normalne stvari na podu. A ovo je zemlja koja dijagnosticira previše mentalnih poremećaja. Bipolarna djeca -- već i četverogodišnjoj djeci dijagnosticira se bipolarni poremećaj zato što imaju napadaje bijesa, što ih pozicionira visoko na listi bipolarnih obilježja. 14:44 Kad sam se vratio u London, Tony me nazvao. Rekao je: ''Zašto mi ne odgovoraš na pozive?'' Rekao sam: ''Pa, kažu da si psihopat.'' Odgovorio je: ''Nisam psihopat.'' Nastavio je, ''Znaš što, jedno od obilježja na popisu jest nedostatak žaljenja, ali druga je karakteristika prepredenost, manipulativnost. Pa kad kažeš da osjećaš žaljenje zbog svog zločina, oni kažu: ''Tipično za psihopata da tako prepredeno kaže da osjeća žaljenje kad to ne osjeća.'' To je poput vračanja. Sve izokrenu. Rekao je: ''Imam saslušanje uskoro. Hoćeš li doći?'' Rekao sam da hoću. 15:21 Otišao sam na njegovo saslušanje. Nakon 14 godina u Broadmooru, pustili su ga. Odlučili su da ne bi trebao vječno ostati ondje jer ima veliki broj bodova na popisu što bi moglo značiti da su šanse za recidiv veće od prosjeka. Pa su ga pustili. Na hodniku mi je rekao: ''Znaš što, Jon?' Svatko je barem malo psihopat." Rekao je: "Ti jesi. Ja jesam. Ja očito jesam.'' Pitao sam ga: ''Što ćeš sad učiniti?'' Odgovorio je: ''Idem u Belgiju zato što je tamo žena koja mi se sviđa. Ali udana je pa ću je morati razdvojiti od muža." 16:06 To se dogodilo prije dvije godine i tu je moja knjiga završila. I u posljednjih 20 mjeseci sve je bilo dobro. Ništa loše se nije dogodilo. On je živio s djevojkom u predgrađu Londona. Pokušavao je, prema scijentologu Brianu, nadoknaditi propušteno vrijeme-- što znam da zvuči zloslutno, ali nije nužno tako. Na žalost, nakon 20 mjeseci, vratio se u zatvor na mjesec dana. Upao je u gungulu, kako je on to nazvao -- završio u zatvoru na mjesec dana, što znam da je loše, ali barem tih mjesec dana označava da kakva god to gungula bila, da nije bilo tako strašno. 16:45 I onda me nazvao. Mislim da je ispravno što je Tony na slobodi. Zato što ne bismo smjeli definirati ljude prema njihovim najluđim obilježjima. A Tony je polu-psihopat. On je sredina u svijetu koji ne voli sredinu. Ali u sredini nalazimo kompleksnost, ondje nalazimo ljudskost i tamo nalazimo istinu. Tony me pitao: ''Jon, mogu li te počastiti pićem u kafiću? Želim ti se zahvaliti za sve što si učinio za mene.'' Ali nisam otišao. Što biste vi učinili? 17:31 Hvala vam.