<blockquote>
<p>It is said that Logia typed Devil Fruit Users cannot be hit without Haki.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Luffy using water to hit Crocodile shows that Logia typed Devil Fruit's weakness can be used to hit without using Haki. So to harm a Logia is to exploit the element itself, using its properties to solidify the user and rendering them vulnerable to damage.</p>
<p><a href="http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Logia#Weaknesses" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Source</a></p>
<blockquote>
<p>Despite the fearsome power of Logia users, they are far from truly being invincible. Sneak attacks are more likely to work, as the user will not be ready to avoid them. However, with training, most Logia users learn to transform by reflex, eliminating the ability to strike them by conventional means. For example, Enel's ability has been trained to the point that he could reflexively change form while partially asleep using Mantra to predict his enemy's actions.</p>
<p>Inexperienced Logia users also tend to become seemingly overconfident, as they are unaccustomed to physically dodging attacks or receiving attacks, due to their powers. Thus, if their advantage is neutralized by some means, they then have to rely on their physical ability to dodge, a skill which they may or may not be proficient at.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Very high skill and training required to dodge any sudden attack. Physical contact is required to hit Logia user, so a well trained user can avoid  Haki-imbued attacks by changing the state.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Does this mean Logia users can &quot;solidify&quot; themselves or maybe only parts of themselves, kind of like coating with Haki?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Yes they can solidify and turn there part of body as they want. Crocodile hand turn into sand while he was holding Vivi. Aokiji using ice leg in One Piece Film: Z.</p>
<p>So it is clear that default form is human state and change according to requirement. And can be hit without using Haki.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-08-27T08:08:55.850Z
2014-10-13T09:28:21.047Z
2020-06-17T09:17:53.303Z
mirroroftruth
<p>Logia users have full control over which state they are in, and have been shown to be able to have parts of their body in different states. </p>

<p>There are some activities where literally being fire is very impractical, such as when eating or drinking. Logia users spend the majority of their time in their human forms of flesh and blood, but many have trained to the point where when something or someone unexpectedly makes contact with them they reflexively turn the point of contact and surrounding area into their element. For more powerful users, this is augmented by Kenbonshoku haki. </p>

<p>But logia users are still just humans. When Luffy hit both Ace and Smoker by mistake, Ace was eating, and I think Smoker was caught off guard because he was concentrating on Ace as the only threat at the time. It's also worth mentioning that despite Smoker being very strong, he is one of the weaker logias shown thus far and at that time did not appear to posess haki.</p>

<p>I think the default form for any human with a devil fruit is their original form, from what we have seen of all Logias and Zoans, with the exception of Chopper, but he throws up all kinds of exceptions, and is also not human.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-10-13T20:31:51.123Z
So if Luffy would have been holding a knife, he would have accidentally stabbed and possible killed Smoker? Why I have a hard time believing this, is because of the power a Logia user holds. I always thought you couldn't hurt Logia users unless you'd have Haki, but if that was true, you could kill them in various ways, like take them by surprise, should them from afar, kill them in their sleep, etc?
Peter Raeves
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-10-14T10:18:33.747Z
It's not automatic unless the user trains themselves to do it. If Smoker had felt a knife going into his back he might have reacted faster. The point about Logias is that most of them have trained to reflexively react to attacks by transforming, like a martial artist training himself to always protect himself when he falls or is thrown.  They're just humans and not invincible. Another example would be if a Smoker had Tashigi behind him and Luffy had attacked with a knife he might have chosen not to become smoke to take the hit. His default form is flesh, not Smoke.
Qiri
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-10-14T10:56:39.020Z
Ok thanks. That makes sense. Although it makes you wonder what Trebol must have looked like as a human though since he always looks like he's in slime form, but it makes sense. Especially compared with Paramecia, who can't turn it off and are always their element (like Magellan who can't touch anyone without poisoning them)
Peter Raeves
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-10-13T19:29:09.647Z
2014-10-13T19:29:09.647Z
Qiri
<p>Logia users can transform themselves into their elements at their own will. I think when Logia users are casually doing their work or just sitting around they tend to be in their normal form and so they can be hit by normal attacks. But even if they are hit they can be shattered and dispersed but come back together. So the only way to really hurt them would be with Haki, Kairoseki, or under a special circumstance like Luffy's rubber disabling Enel's electricity.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-06-10T19:37:02.423Z
Wouldn't they be killed by almost every surprise attack then?
Peter Raeves
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-06-11T18:09:21.937Z
Depends of how well trained they are apparently.  Supposedly Crocodile reflexively turns his body to sand while others can apparently be taken by surprise.
kaine
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-06-10T19:34:27.197Z
2014-06-27T21:19:28.827Z
2014-06-27T21:19:28.827Z
abkds
<p>Well topic a bit exhausted, but i will give one addiction, we dont really know much logia types, we know the 'strong' ones, but they all(?) can use observation haki, so they know when to use it (so they can't be killed in distraction). Maybe Ace and Smoker couldn't use it... We don't really know 'weak ones' to try understanding logia type (if they were unhittable, it would be overpowered)!</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-10-14T09:02:06.863Z
If with 'weak ones', you mean lack of Haki, then you have quite a lot of examples. Pre-timeskip you'd have Smoker, Crocodile and Ace. Post-timeskip you'd have Caribou, Caesar, Monet and Trebol. None which are seen using Haki.
Peter Raeves
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-10-14T09:02:56.137Z
all, [Caribou](http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Caribou) can't or has not.
mirroroftruth
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-10-14T09:22:24.370Z
By 'weak' i mean without **observation haki**. Crocodile was good example for @mirroroftruth answer. So we assume logia type can be countered by no-haki users. Monet shows that if logia user is terrified they can loss their ability to use their powers (for sometime ofc.)... Maybe you are right and they dont have observation haki ;) or maybe have but very bad one, maybe more like 'fighing experience'.
Buzka91
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-10-14T08:23:44.400Z
2014-10-14T08:23:44.400Z
Buzka91
<p>PS: Warning, not sure whether parts should be considered spoiler.</p>

<p>It is said that Logia typed Devil Fruit Users cannot be hit without Haki. Yet while re-watching the Alabasta Arc, Ace was touched twice by Luffy. The first time when he flew inside the restaurant, Luffy hit Smoker and threw him up against Ace, both making a huge hole in the next couple of buildings. The second time was when Luffy was arm wrestling Ace, although this scene might not be canon though. So my question is, how was Luffy able to push back both Smoker and Ace when flying inside the restaurant, since he shouldn't be able to. Does this mean Logia users can "solidify" themselves or maybe only parts of themselves, kind of like coating with Haki? Also what would be the default form for a Logia user?</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-12-02T04:29:00.267Z
I always thought that Luffy hit Smoker's jitte not Smoker himself and since his jitte is made by seastone (at least part of it) Smoker couldn't turn into smoke
Darjeeling
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-12-02T05:00:40.853Z
@OshinoShinobu, as I've known only the tip of Smoker's jitte is made of seastone, the other parts are not.
maseru
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-12-02T05:07:23.613Z
@maseru yes, but when Smoker turn into smoke, his whole jitte didn't turn into smoke either, not only the seastone part. So I guess his jitte still affect him
Darjeeling
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-12-02T13:11:39.010Z
@OshinoShinobu That still doesn't explain why Ace couldn't turn into flames either.
Peter Raeves
<one-piece>
How do Logia powers work?
# How do Logia powers work?
Posted by: username_0 on 2014-06-10
PS: Warning, not sure whether parts should be considered spoiler.

It is said that Logia typed Devil Fruit Users cannot be hit without Haki. Yet while re-watching the Alabasta Arc, Ace was touched twice by Luffy. The first time when he flew inside the restaurant, Luffy hit Smoker and threw him up against Ace, both making a huge hole in the next couple of buildings. The second time was when Luffy was arm wrestling Ace, although this scene might not be canon though. So my question is, how was Luffy able to push back both Smoker and Ace when flying inside the restaurant, since he shouldn't be able to. Does this mean Logia users can "solidify" themselves or maybe only parts of themselves, kind of like coating with Haki? Also what would be the default form for a Logia user?
**Tags:** one-piece
> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: I always thought that Luffy hit Smoker's jitte not Smoker himself and since his jitte is made by seastone (at least part of it) Smoker couldn't turn into smoke  
> **username_2**: @OshinoShinobu, as I've known only the tip of Smoker's jitte is made of seastone, the other parts are not.  
> **username_1**: @maseru yes, but when Smoker turn into smoke, his whole jitte didn't turn into smoke either, not only the seastone part. So I guess his jitte still affect him  
> **username_0**: @OshinoShinobu That still doesn't explain why Ace couldn't turn into flames either.  
---
## 4 answers
### Answer by username_3 on 2014-08-27. Score: 2
> It is said that Logia typed Devil Fruit Users cannot be hit without Haki.

Luffy using water to hit Crocodile shows that Logia typed Devil Fruit's weakness can be used to hit without using Haki. So to harm a Logia is to exploit the element itself, using its properties to solidify the user and rendering them vulnerable to damage.

[Source](http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Logia#Weaknesses)

> Despite the fearsome power of Logia users, they are far from truly being invincible. Sneak attacks are more likely to work, as the user will not be ready to avoid them. However, with training, most Logia users learn to transform by reflex, eliminating the ability to strike them by conventional means. For example, Enel's ability has been trained to the point that he could reflexively change form while partially asleep using Mantra to predict his enemy's actions.
>
> Inexperienced Logia users also tend to become seemingly overconfident, as they are unaccustomed to physically dodging attacks or receiving attacks, due to their powers. Thus, if their advantage is neutralized by some means, they then have to rely on their physical ability to dodge, a skill which they may or may not be proficient at.

Very high skill and training required to dodge any sudden attack. Physical contact is required to hit Logia user, so a well trained user can avoid Haki-imbued attacks by changing the state.

> Does this mean Logia users can "solidify" themselves or maybe only parts of themselves, kind of like coating with Haki?

Yes they can solidify and turn there part of body as they want. Crocodile hand turn into sand while he was holding Vivi. Aokiji using ice leg in One Piece Film: Z.

So it is clear that default form is human state and change according to requirement. And can be hit without using Haki.
---
### Answer by username_4 on 2014-10-13. Score: 2
Logia users have full control over which state they are in, and have been shown to be able to have parts of their body in different states.

There are some activities where literally being fire is very impractical, such as when eating or drinking. Logia users spend the majority of their time in their human forms of flesh and blood, but many have trained to the point where when something or someone unexpectedly makes contact with them they reflexively turn the point of contact and surrounding area into their element. For more powerful users, this is augmented by Kenbonshoku haki.

But logia users are still just humans. When Luffy hit both Ace and Smoker by mistake, Ace was eating, and I think Smoker was caught off guard because he was concentrating on Ace as the only threat at the time. It's also worth mentioning that despite Smoker being very strong, he is one of the weaker logias shown thus far and at that time did not appear to posess haki.

I think the default form for any human with a devil fruit is their original form, from what we have seen of all Logias and Zoans, with the exception of Chopper, but he throws up all kinds of exceptions, and is also not human.
> **Comments:**
> **username_0** (2014-10-13): So if Luffy would have been holding a knife, he would have accidentally stabbed and possible killed Smoker? Why I have a hard time believing this, is because of the power a Logia user holds. I always thought you couldn't hurt Logia users unless you'd have Haki, but if that was true, you could kill them in various ways, like take them by surprise, should them from afar, kill them in their sleep, etc?  
> **username_4** (2014-10-14): It's not automatic unless the user trains themselves to do it. If Smoker had felt a knife going into his back he might have reacted faster. The point about Logias is that most of them have trained to reflexively react to attacks by transforming, like a martial artist training himself to always protect himself when he falls or is thrown.  They're just humans and not invincible. Another example would be if a Smoker had Tashigi behind him and Luffy had attacked with a knife he might have chosen not to become smoke to take the hit. His default form is flesh, not Smoke.  
> **username_0** (2014-10-14): Ok thanks. That makes sense. Although it makes you wonder what Trebol must have looked like as a human though since he always looks like he's in slime form, but it makes sense. Especially compared with Paramecia, who can't turn it off and are always their element (like Magellan who can't touch anyone without poisoning them)  
---
### Answer by username_5 on 2014-06-10. Score: 1
Logia users can transform themselves into their elements at their own will. I think when Logia users are casually doing their work or just sitting around they tend to be in their normal form and so they can be hit by normal attacks. But even if they are hit they can be shattered and dispersed but come back together. So the only way to really hurt them would be with Haki, Kairoseki, or under a special circumstance like Luffy's rubber disabling Enel's electricity.
> **Comments:**
> **username_0** (2014-06-10): Wouldn't they be killed by almost every surprise attack then?  
> **username_6** (2014-06-11): Depends of how well trained they are apparently.  Supposedly Crocodile reflexively turns his body to sand while others can apparently be taken by surprise.  
---
### Answer by username_7 on 2014-10-14. Score: 0
Well topic a bit exhausted, but i will give one addiction, we dont really know much logia types, we know the 'strong' ones, but they all(?) can use observation haki, so they know when to use it (so they can't be killed in distraction). Maybe Ace and Smoker couldn't use it... We don't really know 'weak ones' to try understanding logia type (if they were unhittable, it would be overpowered)!
> **Comments:**
> **username_0** (2014-10-14): If with 'weak ones', you mean lack of Haki, then you have quite a lot of examples. Pre-timeskip you'd have Smoker, Crocodile and Ace. Post-timeskip you'd have Caribou, Caesar, Monet and Trebol. None which are seen using Haki.  
> **username_3** (2014-10-14): all, [Caribou](http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Caribou) can't or has not.  
> **username_7** (2014-10-14): By 'weak' i mean without **observation haki**. Crocodile was good example for @mirroroftruth answer. So we assume logia type can be countered by no-haki users. Monet shows that if logia user is terrified they can loss their ability to use their powers (for sometime ofc.)... Maybe you are right and they dont have observation haki ;) or maybe have but very bad one, maybe more like 'fighing experience'.  
---
