<p>Comparing the strength of characters in DBS is quite difficult because the writing is inconsistent and the plot is full of holes, but we can try. First, let's use DBZ, which has pretty consistent scaling pre-cell saga and generally good scaling from then on.</p>
<p>First let's establish the basic facts: in the opening sagas of Z, you can literally compare characters using the scouter. We now know that the scouter in normal usage had issues when Vegeta had powered up to fight in the beginning of the Namek saga (and we also know that the Saiyan transformation multiplies by 10, so the scouter should have no problem reading values from about Vegeta's Saiyan Saga level to 10 times that amount). This is the baseline that we should be using to stablish the general strength of fighters in Frieza's army. We also know that Frieza's technology division had recently made newer scouters (which the Ginyu force had delivered to replace the destroyed scouters, which could read Goku's power level when he fought the Ginyu force). What also know is that first form Frieza does not cause issues with the scouters. We can then make some estimates of the relative power levels of characters, no one (even first form Frieza), being so far out of reach of the others comparing Vegeta and Goku mid-Namek saga, members of the Ginyu force, and Frieza.</p>
<p>The most important detail here is that the Kais feared Frieza's power, which implies that generally speaking, they are weaker than his first form. The Ginyu force is likely close to the power of the first form of Frieza due to the above and seeing as Frieza was literally the most powerful person in a war torn universe, it's likely this is the power level that the Pride Troopers (Universe 11's version of the Galactic Police, which appropriately is weaker than Frieza's first form), namely Dyspo, are. You have to remember that many members of the tournament of power were fighting Krillin and Master Roshi. They generally are around Namek Saga power levels.</p>
<p>Frieza of course becomes stronger (we can't measure how much stronger however since they stopped using absolute measures like scouters) when he transforms. We do know that eventually, he becomes stronger than Goku (literally, as shown from the Saiyan saga) multiplying his power with Kaioken, this Goku being mush stronger than the version that fought the Ginyu force (which we must note, used the Kaioken to defeat, but likely was around the level of Vegeta). Super Saiyan Goku was stronger than Frieza in his final form, which is stronger than Goku (circa Ginyu force level) multiplying his power with Kaioken. Therefore we can infer that an ordinary Super Saiyan transformation is far stronger than the level of the Ginyu force, and similarly the level of the Pride Troopers.</p>
<p>The Cell Saga messes with logic a bit, cyborgs and robots able to become stronger than Frieza (by proxy, defeating a Super Saiyan Vegeta, who was likely around or stronger than Goku when he fought Frieza or Trunks when he fought Frieza). This is the level of Number 17 and 18, who also fought in the tournament of power, stronger than Super Saiyan (and therefore the Pride Troopers). We also know that 17 and 18 were weaker than first form Cell. We can infer by Piccolo's fights that second form Cell is stronger than first form Cell (I mean, logically, right?). We can infer from Vegeta's fights that Perfect Cell is stronger than second form Cell (again, probably could have guessed that). We also know from the fights Super Saiyan Goku and Gohan were about weaker than Perfect Cell. And SSJ2 Gohan was stronger than Perfect Cell (and therefore Super Saiyans, and by extension the Pride Troopers).</p>
<p>So far we have SSJ2 Gohan &gt; Perfect Cell &gt; Super Vegeta &gt; 2nd form Cell &gt; Piccolo &gt;= 1st form Cell &gt; 17 ~ 18 &gt; SSJ Vegeta ~ SSJ Goku &gt; Final form Frieza &gt; 1st form Frieza &gt; Ginyu Force ~ Pride Troopers</p>
<p>Things get a bit messy in the Buu Saga but we can still work out most of the math. The Supreme Kai (well, the west one, named Shin) was much weaker than Dabura. Dabura is about the level of SSJ2 Gohan. All of the Supreme Kais were weaker than Kid Buu. Kid Buu is stronger than Majin Buu (fat Buu). Dabura is weaker than Majin Buu. Super Buu combines Kid Buu and Majin Buu, and therefore is stronger than Majin Buu. Kid Buu is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Gohan (power unleashed) is stronger than Super Buu.</p>
<p>So we get Gohan (power unleashed) &gt; Super Buu &gt; Kid Buu &gt; SSJ3 Goku ~ Majin Buu &gt; Dabura ~ SSJ2 Gohan &gt; Shin.</p>
<p>Now we can link the two, but it's not clear the relation between Buu saga Gohan and Cell Saga Gohan, but it's likely comparable. We know that Shin is weaker than that, but not clear how much weaker since the only other supreme kai we see fight (and this is where things start getting messy) is the one who trains to fight (Zamasu). And I cannot stress this enough, Zamasu, i.e. the most fighter-like of the Supreme Kais (we can probably imply that he was the strongest) while <em>immortal</em> still could not beat a SSJ2 Trunks... We also see Zamasu lose to Goku earlier in Super (hence the motivation to steal his body) so I doubt the Kai's are actually much stronger than Namek Saga Frieza (although the comments of Kibito etc. in the Buu Saga suggest that they are at least stronger that Frieza).</p>
<p>Next, Goku while SSJ3 is weaker than Beerus. Goku while SSG is uh... somewhat more comparable to Beerus. Beerus is stronger than Namek Saga Frieza (courtesy of flashbacks). This we could have implied, but that's why the power scaling makes little sense here. Namek Saga Frieza reclaimed his pre-Trunks body and trains it to transform in to Golden Frieza. But we don't see Golden Frieza win any fights so we don't know if it's the power of Cell, Majin Buu, SSG, etc. We know that SSGSS is stronger than SSG thanks to to the exhibition matches against Hit. Hit may or may not be around the power of SSG (again, we don't see Hit win against one). We do know that Hit is weaker than Champa, which is probably comparable to Beerus. We also know from the manga that even a regular SSJ Goku is able to overpower Hit (in the same way Super Trunks can over power Perfect Cell).</p>
<p>In the tournament of power we can see the Pride Troopers fight. Dyspo is literally Burter (very fast, but around Ginyu Force level). The fact that Gohan was struggling against Dyspo while Goku in the Namek Saga (using Kaioken, which is less than SSJ, thanks to comparisons with Frieza) easily defeated Burter is largely inconsistent. It would even be the case if Gohan was just SSJ. Toppo and Jiren are the odd men out in the Pride Troopers. Toppo, while using the power of the God of Destruction, can be implied to be around the strength of a God of Destruction (maybe? This is unclear due to the training fights with Beerus and Whis that Goku and Vegeta regularly have). It's unclear whether one can even compare Toppo to Beerus because of how he fairs against Goku pretournament of power and Vegeta during the tournament of power. Toppo does claim that he's much weaker than Jiren and that Jiren is stronger than universe 11's God of Destruction (likely comparable to Beerus).</p>
<p>It should also be worth noting the general power level of the fighters in other universes are around the level of the Ginyu Force. The Saiyans in universe 6 couldn't even turn SSJ (likely because there was never a need to, the average power level was much weaker). Frost is likely around the level of final form Frieza. Hit was weaker in power than SSJ Goku. The 2 Namekians of Universe 6 literally absorbed the rest of their races to be comparable to Piccolo (around Cyborg power level, which is stronger than SSJ). We literally can't gauge the strength of characters like Gohan and Frieza because either the opponents they win against are too weak or the ones they lose against are too strong so it's unclear where in the middle they lie.</p>
<p>Finally, in Dragon Ball Super Heroes, we only really see Piccolo and Gohan fight, so there's no one else with a known level of power in DBS that we can compare them or even Cell too. We know that Orange Piccolo is stronger than Piccolo, but Piccolo is around the level of Cyborg 17. For a lot of reasons, comparing the level of 17 in the tournament of power leads to nonsense, so we don't have a clear way to gauge Orange Piccolo. We do know that it is stronger than Gohan in the tournament of power, but it's unclear how Gohan compares to the DBS transformations because he doesn't really fight 1 on 1 with an opponent at SSG level and upwards and win his fight.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-10-30T02:50:33.390Z
2024-11-29T16:45:33.640Z
2024-11-29T16:45:33.640Z
uberhaxed
<blockquote class="spoiler">
<p> In Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero, Piccolo gets a second transformation called Orange Piccolo. Supposedly his first transformation was unlocking his potential such as they did with Gohan, and for the performance he did it's said he could be around Gohan former to last's transformation, power unleashed Gohan. Now, power unleashed Gohan gave some fight to Goku Super Saiyan Blue, also, in the tournament of power he fought against Toppo and Dyspo alongside Freezer, who supposedly was at the level of Goku Super Saiyan Blue, so Gohan couldnt be so far of a super saiyan blue with his unleashed power form, which seems to be close to Piccolo's former to last transformation. Then, how about Piccolo's last transformation, Orange Piccolo?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Does Orange Piccolo surpass Super Saiyan Blue?</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-10-28T18:06:38.363Z
Just a note, Frieza's golden transformation is not comparable to SSGSS. In the fight between Frieza and Goku, Goku was clearly just messing around (Goku and Vegeta were literally playing games to decide who gets to play with Frieza first) so Goku was not intending to defeat Frieza so Vegeta can get a "turn". Vegeta was clearly not messing around when he fought Frieza and the power difference made Frieza realize his only chance at victory was to destroy earth because the Saiyans cannot survive in space. So gauging Gohan by comparing to Frieza is not good for comparing to SSGSS.
uberhaxed
<dragon-ball-series>
Does Orange Piccolo surpass Super Saiyan Blue?
# Does Orange Piccolo surpass Super Saiyan Blue?
Posted by: username_0 on 2022-06-24
> In Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero, Piccolo gets a second transformation called Orange Piccolo. Supposedly his first transformation was unlocking his potential such as they did with Gohan, and for the performance he did it's said he could be around Gohan former to last's transformation, power unleashed Gohan. Now, power unleashed Gohan gave some fight to Goku Super Saiyan Blue, also, in the tournament of power he fought against Toppo and Dyspo alongside Freezer, who supposedly was at the level of Goku Super Saiyan Blue, so Gohan couldnt be so far of a super saiyan blue with his unleashed power form, which seems to be close to Piccolo's former to last transformation. Then, how about Piccolo's last transformation, Orange Piccolo?

Does Orange Piccolo surpass Super Saiyan Blue?
**Tags:** dragon-ball-series
> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: Just a note, Frieza's golden transformation is not comparable to SSGSS. In the fight between Frieza and Goku, Goku was clearly just messing around (Goku and Vegeta were literally playing games to decide who gets to play with Frieza first) so Goku was not intending to defeat Frieza so Vegeta can get a "turn". Vegeta was clearly not messing around when he fought Frieza and the power difference made Frieza realize his only chance at victory was to destroy earth because the Saiyans cannot survive in space. So gauging Gohan by comparing to Frieza is not good for comparing to SSGSS.  
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## 1 answers
### Answer by username_1 on 2024-10-30. Score: 0
Comparing the strength of characters in DBS is quite difficult because the writing is inconsistent and the plot is full of holes, but we can try. First, let's use DBZ, which has pretty consistent scaling pre-cell saga and generally good scaling from then on.

First let's establish the basic facts: in the opening sagas of Z, you can literally compare characters using the scouter. We now know that the scouter in normal usage had issues when Vegeta had powered up to fight in the beginning of the Namek saga (and we also know that the Saiyan transformation multiplies by 10, so the scouter should have no problem reading values from about Vegeta's Saiyan Saga level to 10 times that amount). This is the baseline that we should be using to stablish the general strength of fighters in Frieza's army. We also know that Frieza's technology division had recently made newer scouters (which the Ginyu force had delivered to replace the destroyed scouters, which could read Goku's power level when he fought the Ginyu force). What also know is that first form Frieza does not cause issues with the scouters. We can then make some estimates of the relative power levels of characters, no one (even first form Frieza), being so far out of reach of the others comparing Vegeta and Goku mid-Namek saga, members of the Ginyu force, and Frieza.

The most important detail here is that the Kais feared Frieza's power, which implies that generally speaking, they are weaker than his first form. The Ginyu force is likely close to the power of the first form of Frieza due to the above and seeing as Frieza was literally the most powerful person in a war torn universe, it's likely this is the power level that the Pride Troopers (Universe 11's version of the Galactic Police, which appropriately is weaker than Frieza's first form), namely Dyspo, are. You have to remember that many members of the tournament of power were fighting Krillin and Master Roshi. They generally are around Namek Saga power levels.

Frieza of course becomes stronger (we can't measure how much stronger however since they stopped using absolute measures like scouters) when he transforms. We do know that eventually, he becomes stronger than Goku (literally, as shown from the Saiyan saga) multiplying his power with Kaioken, this Goku being mush stronger than the version that fought the Ginyu force (which we must note, used the Kaioken to defeat, but likely was around the level of Vegeta). Super Saiyan Goku was stronger than Frieza in his final form, which is stronger than Goku (circa Ginyu force level) multiplying his power with Kaioken. Therefore we can infer that an ordinary Super Saiyan transformation is far stronger than the level of the Ginyu force, and similarly the level of the Pride Troopers.

The Cell Saga messes with logic a bit, cyborgs and robots able to become stronger than Frieza (by proxy, defeating a Super Saiyan Vegeta, who was likely around or stronger than Goku when he fought Frieza or Trunks when he fought Frieza). This is the level of Number 17 and 18, who also fought in the tournament of power, stronger than Super Saiyan (and therefore the Pride Troopers). We also know that 17 and 18 were weaker than first form Cell. We can infer by Piccolo's fights that second form Cell is stronger than first form Cell (I mean, logically, right?). We can infer from Vegeta's fights that Perfect Cell is stronger than second form Cell (again, probably could have guessed that). We also know from the fights Super Saiyan Goku and Gohan were about weaker than Perfect Cell. And SSJ2 Gohan was stronger than Perfect Cell (and therefore Super Saiyans, and by extension the Pride Troopers).

So far we have SSJ2 Gohan > Perfect Cell > Super Vegeta > 2nd form Cell > Piccolo >= 1st form Cell > 17 ~ 18 > SSJ Vegeta ~ SSJ Goku > Final form Frieza > 1st form Frieza > Ginyu Force ~ Pride Troopers

Things get a bit messy in the Buu Saga but we can still work out most of the math. The Supreme Kai (well, the west one, named Shin) was much weaker than Dabura. Dabura is about the level of SSJ2 Gohan. All of the Supreme Kais were weaker than Kid Buu. Kid Buu is stronger than Majin Buu (fat Buu). Dabura is weaker than Majin Buu. Super Buu combines Kid Buu and Majin Buu, and therefore is stronger than Majin Buu. Kid Buu is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Gohan (power unleashed) is stronger than Super Buu.

So we get Gohan (power unleashed) > Super Buu > Kid Buu > SSJ3 Goku ~ Majin Buu > Dabura ~ SSJ2 Gohan > Shin.

Now we can link the two, but it's not clear the relation between Buu saga Gohan and Cell Saga Gohan, but it's likely comparable. We know that Shin is weaker than that, but not clear how much weaker since the only other supreme kai we see fight (and this is where things start getting messy) is the one who trains to fight (Zamasu). And I cannot stress this enough, Zamasu, i.e. the most fighter-like of the Supreme Kais (we can probably imply that he was the strongest) while *immortal* still could not beat a SSJ2 Trunks... We also see Zamasu lose to Goku earlier in Super (hence the motivation to steal his body) so I doubt the Kai's are actually much stronger than Namek Saga Frieza (although the comments of Kibito etc. in the Buu Saga suggest that they are at least stronger that Frieza).

Next, Goku while SSJ3 is weaker than Beerus. Goku while SSG is uh... somewhat more comparable to Beerus. Beerus is stronger than Namek Saga Frieza (courtesy of flashbacks). This we could have implied, but that's why the power scaling makes little sense here. Namek Saga Frieza reclaimed his pre-Trunks body and trains it to transform in to Golden Frieza. But we don't see Golden Frieza win any fights so we don't know if it's the power of Cell, Majin Buu, SSG, etc. We know that SSGSS is stronger than SSG thanks to to the exhibition matches against Hit. Hit may or may not be around the power of SSG (again, we don't see Hit win against one). We do know that Hit is weaker than Champa, which is probably comparable to Beerus. We also know from the manga that even a regular SSJ Goku is able to overpower Hit (in the same way Super Trunks can over power Perfect Cell).

In the tournament of power we can see the Pride Troopers fight. Dyspo is literally Burter (very fast, but around Ginyu Force level). The fact that Gohan was struggling against Dyspo while Goku in the Namek Saga (using Kaioken, which is less than SSJ, thanks to comparisons with Frieza) easily defeated Burter is largely inconsistent. It would even be the case if Gohan was just SSJ. Toppo and Jiren are the odd men out in the Pride Troopers. Toppo, while using the power of the God of Destruction, can be implied to be around the strength of a God of Destruction (maybe? This is unclear due to the training fights with Beerus and Whis that Goku and Vegeta regularly have). It's unclear whether one can even compare Toppo to Beerus because of how he fairs against Goku pretournament of power and Vegeta during the tournament of power. Toppo does claim that he's much weaker than Jiren and that Jiren is stronger than universe 11's God of Destruction (likely comparable to Beerus).

It should also be worth noting the general power level of the fighters in other universes are around the level of the Ginyu Force. The Saiyans in universe 6 couldn't even turn SSJ (likely because there was never a need to, the average power level was much weaker). Frost is likely around the level of final form Frieza. Hit was weaker in power than SSJ Goku. The 2 Namekians of Universe 6 literally absorbed the rest of their races to be comparable to Piccolo (around Cyborg power level, which is stronger than SSJ). We literally can't gauge the strength of characters like Gohan and Frieza because either the opponents they win against are too weak or the ones they lose against are too strong so it's unclear where in the middle they lie.

Finally, in Dragon Ball Super Heroes, we only really see Piccolo and Gohan fight, so there's no one else with a known level of power in DBS that we can compare them or even Cell too. We know that Orange Piccolo is stronger than Piccolo, but Piccolo is around the level of Cyborg 17. For a lot of reasons, comparing the level of 17 in the tournament of power leads to nonsense, so we don't have a clear way to gauge Orange Piccolo. We do know that it is stronger than Gohan in the tournament of power, but it's unclear how Gohan compares to the DBS transformations because he doesn't really fight 1 on 1 with an opponent at SSG level and upwards and win his fight.
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