<p>Revived or not, they're still not the real deal. The Third was not fighting against the real Shodai and Nidaime. That would have been perhaps a completely different fight. </p>

<p>Besides, the fact that Orochimaru's Edo Tensei might not have been that perfect and powerful (perhaps less perfect than Kabuto's), makes me (and not just me) think he used it for the sentimental effect it would have had on the Third, i.e. fighting against your predecessors, rather than actual relying on their (weakened) power only.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2012-12-15T16:07:50.223Z
Only when Madara was revived, he was fully powered, and even more than that
Madara's Ghost
CC BY-SA 3.0
2012-12-15T16:09:21.280Z
@MadaraUchiha You were revived by someone else, though, weren't you? I've seen around the theory according to which Orochimaru weakened them on purpose to control them better. The one who revived you was much stronger.
Alenanno
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2012-12-15T16:34:44.247Z
@Alenanno: In terms of raw strength I don't think Kabuto is much stronger if he *is* stronger than Orochimaru, but Kabuto did mention that he had perfected Edo Tensei. But it's interesting how Kabuto could "value-add" on Madara...
Arturia Pendragon
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2012-12-15T16:42:03.273Z
@ArturiaPendragon Yes, I meant it that way. Kabuto would lose in a 1on1 fight against Orochimaru in open terrain. When they were preparing Konoha's attack, I remember Kabuto's face was terrified. Nevertheless, even if Orochimaru has great knowledge, Kabuto is really really really expert in things like "intellectual jutsu", if you get what I mean. After all, he was the one who cured and took care of Orochimaru in not-normal situations. You need to be skilled for that.
Alenanno
CC BY-SA 3.0
2012-12-15T16:06:57.767Z
2012-12-15T16:06:57.767Z
Alenanno
<p>I think they didn't fight at their full powers because Orochimaru controlled them.</p>

<blockquote class="spoiler">
  <p> Other than Kabuto, who lets the ninjas fight themselves (more or less).</p>
</blockquote>

<p>Because he really controls them, they can't fight better than Orochimaru allowed them to do.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2012-12-15T16:02:16.330Z
I don't think he explicitly controlled them. He let them fight, only they were mindless. Orochimaru can't use Wood element or Water element, he relied on them to do it for him.
Madara's Ghost
CC BY-SA 3.0
2012-12-15T16:05:02.477Z
@MadaraUchiha: Other then Kabuto, Orochimaru suppresses the personality of the victims. They still can use their abilities, but they're dumb shells.
looper
CC BY-SA 3.0
2012-12-15T16:18:39.423Z
@looper: The first and second still conversed with the third and apologized for having to fight him, so their personalities were not suppressed.
Arturia Pendragon
CC BY-SA 3.0
2012-12-15T16:24:19.997Z
@ArturiaPendragon: You should read chapter 118 and 119: In 118, they apologize, in chapter 119, their souls are suppressed (the moment when Orochimaru puts his kunai in their head).
looper
CC BY-SA 3.0
2012-12-15T15:59:02.033Z
2015-04-21T09:52:31.233Z
2015-04-21T09:52:31.233Z
looper
<p>It's actually because the author (Kishimoto) did not plan out the entire story at that point. They used to describe the Third as the strongest Hokage, but this all changed when we got to Shippuuden. Don't bother trying to explain it within the Naruto universe - it's simply an inconsistency in the story, even if Kishimoto writes in some details to patch this error up later on. It's not a knock on the Naruto series though, as this show has been going on for over a decade.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2013-12-30T03:27:35.843Z
2015-05-24T16:50:34.307Z
2015-05-24T16:50:34.307Z
Jmbo
<p>I can think of two (2) theories about that:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>They could've kept some "free will" to avoid using full force against a friendly, even though they were being controlled into. Perhaps their strength was enough to counter Orochimaru's control somewhat (but not enough to properly "release" themselves from his control). You see that, when summoned, one of the first things they did was "ask for forgiveness" from Sarutobi, because they had to fight.</p></li>
<li><p>It might be linked to the "sacrificial bodies" Orochimaru used to summon them: By law of conservation, the "package" cannot be forced to contain something that goes beyond their capacity, and thus limited the strength of First and Second. It was not a hard limit (the ninjas used were <em>far inferior</em>), but Orochimaru might be using THEIR full strength (but still be constraining First and Second's strength altogether).</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Suspension of Disbelief aside, it might be the reason "why" they fought below their grade. That, or Sarutobi could manage both of them at once, but that's even more farfetched.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2013-02-28T21:08:58.263Z
Well, by the law of conservation, infinite chakra is impossible. And yet, Edo Tensei'd ninja do not get tired, nor do they ever run out of chakra.
Madara's Ghost
CC BY-SA 3.0
2013-02-28T21:12:39.107Z
Do they? For it to last "forever", they must be involved in an "non-stopping fight", and since dead people cannot feel pain, they might just be using all the chakra of the body, squeezing the muscles and bones out, until there is no more drop of it and, eventually, fall down, not because they are tired, but just because they cannot get any more chakra from the body (and begin "draining" the summoner instead). It might take a lot of time, but perhaps if the fight drew longer, it could've happened.
Ricardo Segovia
CC BY-SA 3.0
2013-02-28T21:15:12.760Z
I'm not sure about how well versed you are in the Manga. But Madara did things which were beyond human scale, a *lot* of things, and he wasn't even breathing hard. Also, based on latest episodes, it seems as though the jutsu itself has something to do with it (As the Second stated that the technique was improved from last time, and that this time they were resurrected at nearly full power)
Madara's Ghost
CC BY-SA 3.0
2013-03-01T11:33:04.117Z
Well, we are not measuring things within the "human" scale, but rather a more lax one, but i can see your point about it, it might be more related to the technique (and therefore, the user's chakra) than the old body's.
Ricardo Segovia
CC BY-SA 3.0
2013-02-28T20:56:53.743Z
2013-02-28T21:07:29.590Z
2013-02-28T21:07:29.590Z
Ricardo Segovia
<p>Towards the end of the manga, when Orochimaru summons all four dead Hokage with Edo Tensei after releasing their souls from the Death Reaper's stomach, it is stated that the first time around, all those years ago, when Orochimaru attacked the Hidden Leaf Village (Konohagakure) and failed, Orochimaru had purposely summoned the first and second Hokage without their full power, knowing full well that if he did so, he would not be able to control them.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-12-03T02:20:10.760Z
2015-05-24T17:06:25.370Z
2015-05-24T17:06:25.370Z
kakren2
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muriFb2rmeU" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muriFb2rmeU</a></p>

<p>Infinite chakra needs to be put into context ... Like the first and second Hokage  had infinite chakra when they fought the third Hokage but still lost and the reason for that was simple .</p>

<p>Having an infinite amount of chakra does not mean  necessarily having an ability to raise your chakra levels indefinitely as in going from a particular energy capacity to raising it infinitely but like a battery which has a set power capacity being able to recharge or maintain that set power or chakra capacity to full indefinitely (my same argument on superman as he is  dependent on the suns power and since the suns output and life span including the amount of suns that exist are limited therefore his power to become stronger and stronger coincides with that limit like a rechargeable  battery with a limited recharger)</p>

<p>SO AN EDO-TENSEI CHAKRA DOES NOT GO ABOVE ITS NATURAL LEVEL FROM WHEN THE PERSON WAS ALIVE (UNLESS CHAKRA CAPACITY WAS IMPROVED BY CASTER) BUT RATHER REGENERATES THE SAME WAY A DAMAGE BODY DOES WHICH MEANS BECOMING A ZOMBIE SIMPLY PUTS YOU INTO A CONSTANT STAGNANT STATE OF FIXED EXISTENCE SO IF YOU'RE A LEVEL 9 THEN YOU CONSTANTLY REGENERATE AND  RECUPERATE  BACK TO LEVEL 9 REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOUR OPPONENT DOES TO YOU OR HOW MUCH  CHAKRA YOU USE UP PER JUTSU .</p>

<p>THE PROBLEM IS WHETHER MADARA WAS  RESURRECTED AT FULL STRENGTH BECAUSE IT SEEMED AS IF HE WAS AND IMPROVED TO BOOT AND EVEN IF HE WAS NOT , DOES HE HAVE JUTSUS WHICH REQUIRE GREATER CHAKRA CAPACITY LEVELS THAN HIS EDO BODY AND IS THAT REALLY BETTER THAN HAVING THE ABILITY TO RECHARGE HIS CHAKRA AND USE KAMIKAZE  MANEUVERS ?  </p>

<p>From what I remember the first and second Hokage are only at 70% of their power in ZOMBIE form currently. while I do suspect it may be a good trade off for the second Hokage as his techniques seem to be based on talent for execution rather than power level, the first is like Gaara and Kisame in that their abilities become bigger and more powerful like a DBZ character by just using higher amounts of chakra  pumped into it although you would think they can just add more and more chakra to an already executed jutsu as time goes on but whatever .﻿</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2013-11-29T18:10:21.797Z
2013-11-29T18:10:21.797Z
BLACK MAN IS KING
<p>In the later part of the manga, the Second Hokage (Nidaime) thanked Orochimaru for making his jutsu <strong>more perfect</strong> because they were revived at their peak powers.<br>
During the first time, Orochimaru's Edo Tensei was not perfect, due to which Sarutobi was able to seal them inside the Shinigami's belly.</p>

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2014-05-08T21:01:30.813Z
And what episode it was when hokage were ressurected first time?
Johnny_D
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2014-11-09T14:45:47.660Z
@Johnny_D it's episode 71 in the anime (the original, non-shippuden version), or chapters 118 and 119 in the manga
user2813274
CC BY-SA 3.0
2013-02-28T02:32:52.680Z
2015-04-21T10:39:15.633Z
2015-04-21T10:39:15.633Z
janbert
<p>When revived by Orochimaru, the First and Second were sent to fight the Third, however, we know today that:</p>

<blockquote class="spoiler">
  <p> The First beat one of the most powerful ninjas in history (me), could heal himself without activating any special jutsu, could summon a freaking chakra sucking tree dragon.</p>
</blockquote>

<p>Moreover!</p>

<blockquote class="spoiler">
  <p> The Second had known (invented!!) Edo Tensei (meaning he could have broken free of Orochimaru's control), he also knew space-time ninjutsu.</p>
</blockquote>

<p>With those abilities, plus immortality, they couldn't have <em>possibly</em> lost against the Third at their full power.</p>

<p>So in that case, why didn't they use their full power against the Third? Their emotions should have been completely erased, and made into a strict killing machine, and nothing more.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2012-12-15T15:53:24.133Z
Are you sure this isn't just a plothole?
Arturia Pendragon
CC BY-SA 3.0
2012-12-15T16:00:06.913Z
Perhaps Kishi still hadn't thought very much about all of Edo Tensei's possibilities.
JNat
CC BY-SA 3.0
2012-12-15T16:30:10.883Z
Do you really belief that the third would survive me one Minute? Not to mention that Nidaime was with me.
Hashirama Senju
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-05-08T21:00:38.163Z
What episode is it? Or it is still only in manga?
Johnny_D
<naruto>
Why didn't the First and Second Hokage's fight with full power against the Third?
# Why didn't the First and Second Hokage's fight with full power against the Third?
Posted by: username_0 on 2012-12-15
When revived by Orochimaru, the First and Second were sent to fight the Third, however, we know today that:

> The First beat one of the most powerful ninjas in history (me), could heal himself without activating any special jutsu, could summon a freaking chakra sucking tree dragon.

Moreover!

> The Second had known (invented!!) Edo Tensei (meaning he could have broken free of Orochimaru's control), he also knew space-time ninjutsu.

With those abilities, plus immortality, they couldn't have *possibly* lost against the Third at their full power.

So in that case, why didn't they use their full power against the Third? Their emotions should have been completely erased, and made into a strict killing machine, and nothing more.
**Tags:** naruto
> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: Are you sure this isn't just a plothole?  
> **username_2**: Perhaps Kishi still hadn't thought very much about all of Edo Tensei's possibilities.  
> **username_3**: Do you really belief that the third would survive me one Minute? Not to mention that Nidaime was with me.  
> **username_4**: What episode is it? Or it is still only in manga?  
---
## 7 answers
### Answer by username_11 on 2013-02-28. Score: 7 | Accepted answer
In the later part of the manga, the Second Hokage (Nidaime) thanked Orochimaru for making his jutsu **more perfect** because they were revived at their peak powers.  
During the first time, Orochimaru's Edo Tensei was not perfect, due to which Sarutobi was able to seal them inside the Shinigami's belly.
> **Comments:**
> **username_4** (2014-05-08): And what episode it was when hokage were ressurected first time?  
> **username_12** (2014-11-09): @Johnny_D it's episode 71 in the anime (the original, non-shippuden version), or chapters 118 and 119 in the manga  
---
### Answer by username_5 on 2012-12-15. Score: 7
Revived or not, they're still not the real deal. The Third was not fighting against the real Shodai and Nidaime. That would have been perhaps a completely different fight.

Besides, the fact that Orochimaru's Edo Tensei might not have been that perfect and powerful (perhaps less perfect than Kabuto's), makes me (and not just me) think he used it for the sentimental effect it would have had on the Third, i.e. fighting against your predecessors, rather than actual relying on their (weakened) power only.
> **Comments:**
> **username_0** (2012-12-15): Only when Madara was revived, he was fully powered, and even more than that  
> **username_5** (2012-12-15): @MadaraUchiha You were revived by someone else, though, weren't you? I've seen around the theory according to which Orochimaru weakened them on purpose to control them better. The one who revived you was much stronger.  
> **username_1** (2012-12-15): @Alenanno: In terms of raw strength I don't think Kabuto is much stronger if he *is* stronger than Orochimaru, but Kabuto did mention that he had perfected Edo Tensei. But it's interesting how Kabuto could "value-add" on Madara...  
> **username_5** (2012-12-15): @ArturiaPendragon Yes, I meant it that way. Kabuto would lose in a 1on1 fight against Orochimaru in open terrain. When they were preparing Konoha's attack, I remember Kabuto's face was terrified. Nevertheless, even if Orochimaru has great knowledge, Kabuto is really really really expert in things like "intellectual jutsu", if you get what I mean. After all, he was the one who cured and took care of Orochimaru in not-normal situations. You need to be skilled for that.  
---
### Answer by username_6 on 2012-12-15. Score: 3
I think they didn't fight at their full powers because Orochimaru controlled them.

> Other than Kabuto, who lets the ninjas fight themselves (more or less).

Because he really controls them, they can't fight better than Orochimaru allowed them to do.
> **Comments:**
> **username_0** (2012-12-15): I don't think he explicitly controlled them. He let them fight, only they were mindless. Orochimaru can't use Wood element or Water element, he relied on them to do it for him.  
> **username_6** (2012-12-15): @MadaraUchiha: Other then Kabuto, Orochimaru suppresses the personality of the victims. They still can use their abilities, but they're dumb shells.  
> **username_1** (2012-12-15): @looper: The first and second still conversed with the third and apologized for having to fight him, so their personalities were not suppressed.  
> **username_6** (2012-12-15): @ArturiaPendragon: You should read chapter 118 and 119: In 118, they apologize, in chapter 119, their souls are suppressed (the moment when Orochimaru puts his kunai in their head).  
---
### Answer by username_7 on 2013-12-30. Score: 1
It's actually because the author (Kishimoto) did not plan out the entire story at that point. They used to describe the Third as the strongest Hokage, but this all changed when we got to Shippuuden. Don't bother trying to explain it within the Naruto universe - it's simply an inconsistency in the story, even if Kishimoto writes in some details to patch this error up later on. It's not a knock on the Naruto series though, as this show has been going on for over a decade.
---
### Answer by username_8 on 2013-02-28. Score: 0
I can think of two (2) theories about that:

1. They could've kept some "free will" to avoid using full force against a friendly, even though they were being controlled into. Perhaps their strength was enough to counter Orochimaru's control somewhat (but not enough to properly "release" themselves from his control). You see that, when summoned, one of the first things they did was "ask for forgiveness" from Sarutobi, because they had to fight.
2. It might be linked to the "sacrificial bodies" Orochimaru used to summon them: By law of conservation, the "package" cannot be forced to contain something that goes beyond their capacity, and thus limited the strength of First and Second. It was not a hard limit (the ninjas used were *far inferior*), but Orochimaru might be using THEIR full strength (but still be constraining First and Second's strength altogether).

Suspension of Disbelief aside, it might be the reason "why" they fought below their grade. That, or Sarutobi could manage both of them at once, but that's even more farfetched.
> **Comments:**
> **username_0** (2013-02-28): Well, by the law of conservation, infinite chakra is impossible. And yet, Edo Tensei'd ninja do not get tired, nor do they ever run out of chakra.  
> **username_8** (2013-02-28): Do they? For it to last "forever", they must be involved in an "non-stopping fight", and since dead people cannot feel pain, they might just be using all the chakra of the body, squeezing the muscles and bones out, until there is no more drop of it and, eventually, fall down, not because they are tired, but just because they cannot get any more chakra from the body (and begin "draining" the summoner instead). It might take a lot of time, but perhaps if the fight drew longer, it could've happened.  
> **username_0** (2013-02-28): I'm not sure about how well versed you are in the Manga. But Madara did things which were beyond human scale, a *lot* of things, and he wasn't even breathing hard. Also, based on latest episodes, it seems as though the jutsu itself has something to do with it (As the Second stated that the technique was improved from last time, and that this time they were resurrected at nearly full power)  
> **username_8** (2013-03-01): Well, we are not measuring things within the "human" scale, but rather a more lax one, but i can see your point about it, it might be more related to the technique (and therefore, the user's chakra) than the old body's.  
---
### Answer by username_9 on 2014-12-03. Score: 0
Towards the end of the manga, when Orochimaru summons all four dead Hokage with Edo Tensei after releasing their souls from the Death Reaper's stomach, it is stated that the first time around, all those years ago, when Orochimaru attacked the Hidden Leaf Village (Konohagakure) and failed, Orochimaru had purposely summoned the first and second Hokage without their full power, knowing full well that if he did so, he would not be able to control them.
---
### Answer by username_10 on 2013-11-29. Score: -1
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muriFb2rmeU>

Infinite chakra needs to be put into context ... Like the first and second Hokage had infinite chakra when they fought the third Hokage but still lost and the reason for that was simple .

Having an infinite amount of chakra does not mean necessarily having an ability to raise your chakra levels indefinitely as in going from a particular energy capacity to raising it infinitely but like a battery which has a set power capacity being able to recharge or maintain that set power or chakra capacity to full indefinitely (my same argument on superman as he is dependent on the suns power and since the suns output and life span including the amount of suns that exist are limited therefore his power to become stronger and stronger coincides with that limit like a rechargeable battery with a limited recharger)

SO AN EDO-TENSEI CHAKRA DOES NOT GO ABOVE ITS NATURAL LEVEL FROM WHEN THE PERSON WAS ALIVE (UNLESS CHAKRA CAPACITY WAS IMPROVED BY CASTER) BUT RATHER REGENERATES THE SAME WAY A DAMAGE BODY DOES WHICH MEANS BECOMING A ZOMBIE SIMPLY PUTS YOU INTO A CONSTANT STAGNANT STATE OF FIXED EXISTENCE SO IF YOU'RE A LEVEL 9 THEN YOU CONSTANTLY REGENERATE AND RECUPERATE BACK TO LEVEL 9 REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOUR OPPONENT DOES TO YOU OR HOW MUCH CHAKRA YOU USE UP PER JUTSU .

THE PROBLEM IS WHETHER MADARA WAS RESURRECTED AT FULL STRENGTH BECAUSE IT SEEMED AS IF HE WAS AND IMPROVED TO BOOT AND EVEN IF HE WAS NOT , DOES HE HAVE JUTSUS WHICH REQUIRE GREATER CHAKRA CAPACITY LEVELS THAN HIS EDO BODY AND IS THAT REALLY BETTER THAN HAVING THE ABILITY TO RECHARGE HIS CHAKRA AND USE KAMIKAZE MANEUVERS ?

From what I remember the first and second Hokage are only at 70% of their power in ZOMBIE form currently. while I do suspect it may be a good trade off for the second Hokage as his techniques seem to be based on talent for execution rather than power level, the first is like Gaara and Kisame in that their abilities become bigger and more powerful like a DBZ character by just using higher amounts of chakra pumped into it although you would think they can just add more and more chakra to an already executed jutsu as time goes on but whatever .﻿
---
