<p>Baron-Cohen has conducted studies [1,2] investigating whether autism spectrum conditions (ASCs) are related to mathematical or scientific ability. These have, however, focused mostly on (Cambridge) undergraduates or winners of the UK Mathematics Olympiad.</p>

<p>Interestingly, Baron-Cohen found in [2] that Olympiad winners scored the highest in the AQ test (<span class="math-container">$\mathrm{AQ}\colon 24.5,\mathrm{ SD}\colon 5.7$</span>), with the second highest scoring group being the mathematics students (<span class="math-container">$\mathrm{AQ}\colon 21.5,\mathrm{ SD}\colon 6.4$</span>).<span class="math-container">$^1$</span> This leads one to conjecture that autistic traits may be more prominent among individuals with higher mathematical ability.</p>

<p>While investigations on the relationship between autism and mathematical ability have been carried out [3,4], mostly of these focused on students at the undergraduate level or below. Furthermore, these studies may be focused on a completely different skill set than the one required for the practice of research mathematics.</p>

<p>Is there evidence for the distinction between undergraduate and postgraduate skills and studies especially from a biological or psychometric point of view?</p>

<p>Is the level of mathematics as done by undergraduates different from graduate students or professional mathematicians? There are very distinct skills required at various levels for example, a set of skills<span class="math-container">$^2$</span>, such as good writing, abstract thinking, endurance<span class="math-container">$^3$</span>, creativity, and problem solving for a research project. Is technical ability such as [4] "mathematical ability" through arithmetic problems, which focuses only on problem solving, a distinct set of skills that has been shown to be distinct in other studies?</p>

<hr>

<p><strong>Disclaimer</strong>: This question has been split from <a href="https://psychology.stackexchange.com/questions/23896/are-mathematicians-more-autistic-than-mathematics-student">this one</a>. </p>

<p><span class="math-container">$^1$</span>Note however that the sample is small: <span class="math-container">$n=16$</span> for UK Olympiad winners, <span class="math-container">$n=85$</span> for mathematics students.</p>

<p><span class="math-container">$^2$</span>Of course, there are also skills which individuals with ASCs may have trouble with, such as socialisation (mathematics is often described as an activity with a large social component by its practitioners).</p>

<p><span class="math-container">$^3$</span>In the sense of obsessing, possibly for <em>years</em>, with a research problem to solve it.</p>

<p><strong>References</strong></p>

<blockquote>
  <p>[1] Baron-Cohen, Simon, Sally Wheelwright, Amy Burtenshaw, and Esther Hobson. "Mathematical talent is linked to autism." Human nature 18, no. 2 (2007): 125-131.</p>
  
  <p>[2] Baron-Cohen, Simon, Sally Wheelwright, Richard Skinner, Joanne Martin, and Emma Clubley. "The autism-spectrum quotient (AQ): Evidence from Asperger syndrome/high-functioning autism, males and females, scientists and mathematicians." Journal of autism and developmental disorders 31, no. 1 (2001): 5-17.</p>
  
  <p>[3] Chiang, Hsu-Min, and Yueh-Hsien Lin. "Mathematical ability of students with Asperger syndrome and high-functioning autism: A review of literature." Autism 11, no. 6 (2007): 547-556.</p>
  
  <p>[4] Bressan, Paola. "Systemisers are better at maths." Scientific reports 8, no. 1 (2018): 11636.</p>
</blockquote>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-08-23T22:38:49.503Z
Possible duplicate of [Have there been studies on whether mathematicians have more autistic traits than mathematics students?](https://psychology.stackexchange.com/questions/23896/have-there-been-studies-on-whether-mathematicians-have-more-autistic-traits-than)
Bryan Krause
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-08-24T01:38:08.443Z
Maybe the title should also mention autism so as to not be misleading?
Tim Wright
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-08-24T01:54:02.953Z
I am not sure how to include autism. My feeling is to leave it broad to discuss the distinction between undergrad and postgrad maths. This should be the main focus. Then the inferences and debate about how autism fits into that framework can be a secondary issue.
Poidah
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-08-24T01:56:56.113Z
Your new posts looks at autism and maths specifically. Maybe another question in a couple of months when the theories are fleshed out would be appropriate. Right now the distinctions and theories are too vague for the question to be answered well - https://psychology.stackexchange.com/questions/23914/what-theories-might-explain-the-link-between-mathematical-ability-and-autism
Poidah
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-08-24T02:07:42.163Z
There is another interesting discussion happening in Academia SE that you might be interested in - https://academia.stackexchange.com/questions/135086/handling-disruptive-student-on-the-autistic-spectrum/135093#135093
Poidah
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-08-24T02:24:02.623Z
@Poidah I think this distinction is clearer in mathematics and physics, because of the way they are structured (each subject completely on top of each other, making prerequisites completely inevitable, and most current research inaccessible for undergraduates) With the skill set required being so different (especially in creativity/obsession), wouldn't it make sense to ask in which ways the link between autism and mathematics ability is different in the postgrad level?
Tim Wright
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-08-24T02:24:17.837Z
I do think however that part of this discussion applies more broadly to other STEM fields, in particular creativity, good writing, and endurance. That said, there may be other parts exclusive to specific fields within STEM (e.g. abstract thinking in mathematics, physics, and theoretical computer science)
Tim Wright
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-08-24T02:25:06.733Z
Thanks for the link to the discussion in Academia.SE! It seems pretty interesting (especially your answer!).
Tim Wright
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-08-24T02:29:09.710Z
I think the question still does respect your Maths distinction. I just don't want the evidence from another field to be suppressed. There are other professions where the dropout rate is high at a professional level, for example in the health/education professions, where nurses/teachers/social workers etc drop out at 5 years at a rate of about 50%... That issue might be relevant here too. Empathisizing may be toxic to such work environment potentially? Maybe the dropouts have less systematising required at a postgrad level?
Poidah
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-08-24T02:40:15.493Z
I agree completely: It's a good idea to not suppress evidence from other fields. Regarding the title, shouldn't it mention autism, such as to reflect the question's subject? Say "Is there evidence for different performance of autistic individuals in undergrad compared to postgrad mathematics?" or "Is there evidence for different performance of autistic individuals in undergrad compared to postgrad education?" or something along those lines.
Tim Wright
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-08-24T06:25:26.533Z
I think the body of the question is enough. If someone finds compelling evidence from another field, the autism word may put them off. I was also keen to remove the word mathematics from the title, but that may make it too broad...
Poidah
<autism><mathematical-ability><aspergers>
Is there any evidence for the distinction between undergrad and postgrad mathematics?
Tim Wright
# Is there any evidence for the distinction between undergrad and postgrad mathematics?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2019-08-23)

Baron-Cohen has conducted studies [1,2] investigating whether autism spectrum conditions (ASCs) are related to mathematical or scientific ability. These have, however, focused mostly on (Cambridge) undergraduates or winners of the UK Mathematics Olympiad.

Interestingly, Baron-Cohen found in [2] that Olympiad winners scored the highest in the AQ test ($\mathrm{AQ}\colon 24.5,\mathrm{ SD}\colon 5.7$), with the second highest scoring group being the mathematics students ($\mathrm{AQ}\colon 21.5,\mathrm{ SD}\colon 6.4$).$^1$ This leads one to conjecture that autistic traits may be more prominent among individuals with higher mathematical ability.

While investigations on the relationship between autism and mathematical ability have been carried out [3,4], mostly of these focused on students at the undergraduate level or below. Furthermore, these studies may be focused on a completely different skill set than the one required for the practice of research mathematics.

Is there evidence for the distinction between undergraduate and postgraduate skills and studies especially from a biological or psychometric point of view?

Is the level of mathematics as done by undergraduates different from graduate students or professional mathematicians? There are very distinct skills required at various levels for example, a set of skills$^2$, such as good writing, abstract thinking, endurance$^3$, creativity, and problem solving for a research project. Is technical ability such as [4] "mathematical ability" through arithmetic problems, which focuses only on problem solving, a distinct set of skills that has been shown to be distinct in other studies?

---

**Disclaimer**: This question has been split from [this one](https://psychology.stackexchange.com/questions/23896/are-mathematicians-more-autistic-than-mathematics-student).

$^1$Note however that the sample is small: $n=16$ for UK Olympiad winners, $n=85$ for mathematics students.

$^2$Of course, there are also skills which individuals with ASCs may have trouble with, such as socialisation (mathematics is often described as an activity with a large social component by its practitioners).

$^3$In the sense of obsessing, possibly for *years*, with a research problem to solve it.

**References**

> [1] Baron-Cohen, Simon, Sally Wheelwright, Amy Burtenshaw, and Esther Hobson. "Mathematical talent is linked to autism." Human nature 18, no. 2 (2007): 125-131.
>
> [2] Baron-Cohen, Simon, Sally Wheelwright, Richard Skinner, Joanne Martin, and Emma Clubley. "The autism-spectrum quotient (AQ): Evidence from Asperger syndrome/high-functioning autism, males and females, scientists and mathematicians." Journal of autism and developmental disorders 31, no. 1 (2001): 5-17.
>
> [3] Chiang, Hsu-Min, and Yueh-Hsien Lin. "Mathematical ability of students with Asperger syndrome and high-functioning autism: A review of literature." Autism 11, no. 6 (2007): 547-556.
>
> [4] Bressan, Paola. "Systemisers are better at maths." Scientific reports 8, no. 1 (2018): 11636.

**Tags:** autism, mathematical-ability, aspergers

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: Possible duplicate of [Have there been studies on whether mathematicians have more autistic traits than mathematics students?](https://psychology.stackexchange.com/questions/23896/have-there-been-studies-on-whether-mathematicians-have-more-autistic-traits-than)  
> **username_0**: Maybe the title should also mention autism so as to not be misleading?  
> **username_2**: I am not sure how to include autism. My feeling is to leave it broad to discuss the distinction between undergrad and postgrad maths. This should be the main focus. Then the inferences and debate about how autism fits into that framework can be a secondary issue.  
> **username_2**: Your new posts looks at autism and maths specifically. Maybe another question in a couple of months when the theories are fleshed out would be appropriate. Right now the distinctions and theories are too vague for the question to be answered well - https://psychology.stackexchange.com/questions/23914/what-theories-might-explain-the-link-between-mathematical-ability-and-autism  
> **username_2**: There is another interesting discussion happening in Academia SE that you might be interested in - https://academia.stackexchange.com/questions/135086/handling-disruptive-student-on-the-autistic-spectrum/135093#135093  
> **username_0**: @username_2 I think this distinction is clearer in mathematics and physics, because of the way they are structured (each subject completely on top of each other, making prerequisites completely inevitable, and most current research inaccessible for undergraduates) With the skill set required being so different (especially in creativity/obsession), wouldn't it make sense to ask in which ways the link between autism and mathematics ability is different in the postgrad level?  
> **username_0**: I do think however that part of this discussion applies more broadly to other STEM fields, in particular creativity, good writing, and endurance. That said, there may be other parts exclusive to specific fields within STEM (e.g. abstract thinking in mathematics, physics, and theoretical computer science)  
> **username_0**: Thanks for the link to the discussion in Academia.SE! It seems pretty interesting (especially your answer!).  
> **username_2**: I think the question still does respect your Maths distinction. I just don't want the evidence from another field to be suppressed. There are other professions where the dropout rate is high at a professional level, for example in the health/education professions, where nurses/teachers/social workers etc drop out at 5 years at a rate of about 50%... That issue might be relevant here too. Empathisizing may be toxic to such work environment potentially? Maybe the dropouts have less systematising required at a postgrad level?  
> **username_0**: I agree completely: It's a good idea to not suppress evidence from other fields. Regarding the title, shouldn't it mention autism, such as to reflect the question's subject? Say "Is there evidence for different performance of autistic individuals in undergrad compared to postgrad mathematics?" or "Is there evidence for different performance of autistic individuals in undergrad compared to postgrad education?" or something along those lines.  
> **username_2**: I think the body of the question is enough. If someone finds compelling evidence from another field, the autism word may put them off. I was also keen to remove the word mathematics from the title, but that may make it too broad...  

---

## 0 answers

