<p>The <em>phonotactics</em> of a language, what you have described, is the silent partner of phonology. The analogy I like to use is that a language's phonology is its periodic table (with individual phonemes as individual elements), while its phonotactics are the entire rest of its chemistry. Higher level stuff, like morphology, semantics, pragmatics, are things like biology, psychology, sociology.</p>
<p><strong>Just like every language has its own phonology, every language has its own phonotactics.</strong>  There are languages that can put /ŋ/ in onset (for example, Vietnamese) or /h/ in coda (Arabic). There are languages that can't make /s/ clusters, or any clusters for that matter (Hawaiian).</p>
<p>The IPA is the &quot;Grand Unified Periodic Table of Linguistics&quot;; it's stated purpose is to label every sound used in a human language, and does not restrict their arrangement in anyway. There is no &quot;Grand Unified Chemistry of Linguistics&quot;; phonotactic laws are usually described in plain language, although there is a notation to succinctly describe allophonic variation (that is, how phonemes are realized as phones in different environments) and phonemic evolution (how a language's phonemes evolve over time).</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-05-10T10:32:03.667Z
Indeed -- the IPA attempts to DESCRIBE sounds, not PRESCRIBE anything. There are no IPA rules that prohibit anything.
Oliver Mason
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-07-26T09:59:40.080Z
in fact, restriction of /ŋ/ to coda position only is sometimes considered an Indo-Europeanism as most other languages with it as a distinct phoneme are perfectly happy including it in the onset (although many Sinitic languages either have or are in the process of losing it in onset position too)
Tristan
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-12-09T00:52:28.123Z
@Tristan And of course there are plenty of (modern) Indo-European languages that are fine with initial /ŋ/ as well.
Janus Bahs Jacquet
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-12-09T10:07:57.803Z
@JanusBahsJacquet I didn't know that! Do you have any examples?
Tristan
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-12-09T11:05:00.657Z
@Tristan Well, I say ‘plenty’ – there are _some_, at least. Albanian does (_nga_ ‘at, from, to’, also pronounced as [ŋɡ]), and some of the remnant Celtic languages have [ŋ] as the result of /g/ with nasal mutation (Welsh _fy ngorsaf_ ‘my station’, Irish _i ngairdín_ ‘in a garden’, Manx _cha ngowee_ ‘will not go’). I seem to recall something about some Indic or Iranian language(s) also having it, but I don’t know anything about modern Indo-Iranian, so I have no idea which one(s) it was. I thought it might have been Kalasha, but it doesn’t seem like it.
Janus Bahs Jacquet
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-12-09T14:35:50.567Z
ah, Albanian is definitely a good example. In the Celtic languages are those nasals genuinely onsets?
Tristan
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-30T21:44:50.987Z
@Tristan I just randomly saw your comment here now, nearly two years late. You could argue that things like possessive determiners, prepositions and negators are essentially proclitics and /ŋ/ thus not true onsets; but there are other words that cause nasalisation that would be harder to consider proclitic; e.g., Irish _seacht/ocht/naoi/deich ngairdín_ ‘seven/eight/nine/ten gardens’, _cá ngabhfaidh tú?_ ‘where will you go?’ In older Irish, adjectives after the gen.pl. were also nasalised (_na ngealaí ngeala_ ‘of the bright moons’), but not anymore.
Janus Bahs Jacquet
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-05-09T15:39:13.120Z
2021-05-23T12:55:29.963Z
2021-05-23T12:55:29.963Z
No Name
<p>When creating syllables we basically require an <em>onset</em>, <em>nucleus</em>, and a <em>coda</em>. Now, usually, all language have an onset, and the coda is fairly optional. Before creating a phonetic system, we first decide the word order, and rules about what sounds are allowed in the onset, nucleus and coda positions.</p>
<p>My question is focused on the 2nd part. For example, in <em>English</em>, the sound [ŋ] isn’t allowed to begin a word, but it can begin a syllable; and in <em>Dothraki</em>, the consonants [ɡ], [q], and [w] can’t end a word.</p>
<p>So these restrictions, do they arrive because of some IPA rule? Or is it the developer that creates these rules?</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-06-09T18:50:34.090Z
"In English, the sound [ŋ] ... can begin a syllable." Do you have any examples of this?
OpenAI was the last straw
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-06-13T16:40:47.383Z
It's from the book, "The art of language creation."
Momobear
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-07-12T23:10:16.117Z
I couldn't find the passage you quote, else I'd insert your mystery symbol for you. Do you see it here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet_chart
Anton Sherwood
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-07-13T10:55:41.013Z
@AntonSherwood yes I can, thanks a lot, buddy.
Momobear
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-07-13T10:57:49.267Z
@AntonSherwood the passage is from the book which is written by David Peterson
Momobear
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-07-14T00:21:27.903Z
I looked in the most obvious places in the book which is written by David Peterson, or at least *a* book which is written by David Peterson, and didn't find it.  How about a page number or something?
Anton Sherwood
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-07-14T04:00:10.573Z
@AntonSherwood I have an e-book, so the pages might be few pages back or forth. In the phonotactics section, page 58. Below the chart.
Momobear
<conlang-creation><phonology><vocabulary><morphology>
Syllabic restriction/word boundaries set by IPA? Or it is decided by language creator
# Syllabic restriction/word boundaries set by IPA? Or it is decided by language creator

(Asked by: username_0 on 2021-05-07)

When creating syllables we basically require an *onset*, *nucleus*, and a *coda*. Now, usually, all language have an onset, and the coda is fairly optional. Before creating a phonetic system, we first decide the word order, and rules about what sounds are allowed in the onset, nucleus and coda positions.

My question is focused on the 2nd part. For example, in *English*, the sound [ŋ] isn’t allowed to begin a word, but it can begin a syllable; and in *Dothraki*, the consonants [ɡ], [q], and [w] can’t end a word.

So these restrictions, do they arrive because of some IPA rule? Or is it the developer that creates these rules?

**Tags:** conlang-creation, phonology, vocabulary, morphology

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: "In English, the sound [ŋ] ... can begin a syllable." Do you have any examples of this?  
> **username_0**: It's from the book, "The art of language creation."  
> **username_2**: I couldn't find the passage you quote, else I'd insert your mystery symbol for you. Do you see it here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet_chart  
> **username_0**: @AntonSherwood yes I can, thanks a lot, buddy.  
> **username_0**: @AntonSherwood the passage is from the book which is written by David Peterson  
> **username_2**: I looked in the most obvious places in the book which is written by David Peterson, or at least *a* book which is written by David Peterson, and didn't find it.  How about a page number or something?  
> **username_0**: @AntonSherwood I have an e-book, so the pages might be few pages back or forth. In the phonotactics section, page 58. Below the chart.  

---

## 1 answers

### Answer by username_3 on 2021-05-09. Score: 7

The *phonotactics* of a language, what you have described, is the silent partner of phonology. The analogy I like to use is that a language's phonology is its periodic table (with individual phonemes as individual elements), while its phonotactics are the entire rest of its chemistry. Higher level stuff, like morphology, semantics, pragmatics, are things like biology, psychology, sociology.

**Just like every language has its own phonology, every language has its own phonotactics.** There are languages that can put /ŋ/ in onset (for example, Vietnamese) or /h/ in coda (Arabic). There are languages that can't make /s/ clusters, or any clusters for that matter (Hawaiian).

The IPA is the "Grand Unified Periodic Table of Linguistics"; it's stated purpose is to label every sound used in a human language, and does not restrict their arrangement in anyway. There is no "Grand Unified Chemistry of Linguistics"; phonotactic laws are usually described in plain language, although there is a notation to succinctly describe allophonic variation (that is, how phonemes are realized as phones in different environments) and phonemic evolution (how a language's phonemes evolve over time).

> **Comments:**
> **username_4**: Indeed -- the IPA attempts to DESCRIBE sounds, not PRESCRIBE anything. There are no IPA rules that prohibit anything.  
> **username_5**: in fact, restriction of /ŋ/ to coda position only is sometimes considered an Indo-Europeanism as most other languages with it as a distinct phoneme are perfectly happy including it in the onset (although many Sinitic languages either have or are in the process of losing it in onset position too)  
> **username_6**: @username_5 And of course there are plenty of (modern) Indo-European languages that are fine with initial /ŋ/ as well.  
> **username_5**: @JanusBahsJacquet I didn't know that! Do you have any examples?  
> **username_6**: @username_5 Well, I say ‘plenty’ – there are _some_, at least. Albanian does (_nga_ ‘at, from, to’, also pronounced as [ŋɡ]), and some of the remnant Celtic languages have [ŋ] as the result of /g/ with nasal mutation (Welsh _fy ngorsaf_ ‘my station’, Irish _i ngairdín_ ‘in a garden’, Manx _cha ngowee_ ‘will not go’). I seem to recall something about some Indic or Iranian language(s) also having it, but I don’t know anything about modern Indo-Iranian, so I have no idea which one(s) it was. I thought it might have been Kalasha, but it doesn’t seem like it.  
> **username_5**: ah, Albanian is definitely a good example. In the Celtic languages are those nasals genuinely onsets?  
> **username_6**: @username_5 I just randomly saw your comment here now, nearly two years late. You could argue that things like possessive determiners, prepositions and negators are essentially proclitics and /ŋ/ thus not true onsets; but there are other words that cause nasalisation that would be harder to consider proclitic; e.g., Irish _seacht/ocht/naoi/deich ngairdín_ ‘seven/eight/nine/ten gardens’, _cá ngabhfaidh tú?_ ‘where will you go?’ In older Irish, adjectives after the gen.pl. were also nasalised (_na ngealaí ngeala_ ‘of the bright moons’), but not anymore.  

---

