<p>Tolkien did work out the history of his languages both forward and backward, that is:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>construct a pseudo-historical background and deduce the form you have
actually decided on from an antecedent and different form (conceived
in outline); or you can posit certain tendencies of development and
see what sort of form this will produce. <em>- A Secret Vice</em></p>
</blockquote>
<p>But AFAIK, these two languages have always been related from the earliest materials so far published (<em>Qenya Lexicon, Gnomish Lexicon, The Books of Lost Tales</em> …), just as their speakers in the Legendarium.</p>
<p>I'm not aware of any material regarding even earlier stages of them.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>The ‘Sindarin’, a Grey-elven language, is in fact constructed deliberately to resemble Welsh phonologically and to have a relation to High-elven similar to that existing between British (properly so-called, sc. the Celtic languages spoken in this island at the time of the Roman Invasion) and Latin. - <em>Letter #165</em></p>
</blockquote>
<p>I can't say whether Tolkien had Gnomish in mind, or which idea came to him first: to resemble Welsh phonologically, or to have a relation to Quenya.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-05-18T13:09:31.683Z
2022-05-18T13:09:31.683Z
Eugene
<p>I have the impression that Tolkien, for whom pinning anything down permanently was Not The Point, worked his philology forward and backward almost equally.</p>
<p>Is it known whether or not Qenya and Goldogrin (early versions of what became Quenya and Sindarin) were <em>initially</em> conceived as related?  Or did Tolkien begin them independent of each other (though perhaps with many loanwords) and later think “oh, they ought to be related” and adapt them to fit each other?</p>

<tolkien-elvish>
Did the Elvish languages converge before they diverged?
# Did the Elvish languages converge before they diverged?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2022-04-25)

I have the impression that Tolkien, for whom pinning anything down permanently was Not The Point, worked his philology forward and backward almost equally.

Is it known whether or not Qenya and Goldogrin (early versions of what became Quenya and Sindarin) were *initially* conceived as related? Or did Tolkien begin them independent of each other (though perhaps with many loanwords) and later think “oh, they ought to be related” and adapt them to fit each other?

**Tags:** tolkien-elvish


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## 1 answers

### Answer by username_1 on 2022-05-18. Score: 6 | Accepted answer

Tolkien did work out the history of his languages both forward and backward, that is:

> construct a pseudo-historical background and deduce the form you have
> actually decided on from an antecedent and different form (conceived
> in outline); or you can posit certain tendencies of development and
> see what sort of form this will produce. *- A Secret Vice*

But AFAIK, these two languages have always been related from the earliest materials so far published (*Qenya Lexicon, Gnomish Lexicon, The Books of Lost Tales* …), just as their speakers in the Legendarium.

I'm not aware of any material regarding even earlier stages of them.

> The ‘Sindarin’, a Grey-elven language, is in fact constructed deliberately to resemble Welsh phonologically and to have a relation to High-elven similar to that existing between British (properly so-called, sc. the Celtic languages spoken in this island at the time of the Roman Invasion) and Latin. - *Letter #165*

I can't say whether Tolkien had Gnomish in mind, or which idea came to him first: to resemble Welsh phonologically, or to have a relation to Quenya.


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