<p>Most words with Mandarin initial zh, ch, sh, or r had a medial -i- in Middle Chinese.  (If you know about 等 "division," modern zh, ch, sh, r come from divisions II and III, with III being more common.)</p>

<p>So, if you read the old dictionaries naively, you will expect to see "shiao" "zhiang" "rin" and so forth.  The -i- was lost on the way to Modern Chinese.  </p>

<p>It seems that there were sounds like "chiao" in the Zhongyuan Yinyun (from 1324).  For instance there was a difference between 抄 (chao) and 超 (chiao).  (You can look up ZYYY and more on zdic.net -- but realize that the romanizations are the work of modern scholars.)</p>

<p>You can also see evidence of the -i- in Cantonese, where for example 张 is pronounced the same as 将.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-04-09T07:47:39.377Z
2017-04-09T07:47:39.377Z
Brian
<p>You have to specify what you mean.</p>

<p>If you mean the actual sound -- yes, it happens to have existed.</p>

<p>If you mean whether the sound existed in the history of Mandarin, not Middle Chinese -- yes, it happens to.</p>

<p>If you mean whether at some point the character 䄝 was pronounced like Modern Standard Mandarin <code>chiang</code>, uh probably not.</p>

<p>To go through some Middle Chinese reconstruction details, 丑 has onset 徹 in MC, reconstructed as *[ʈʰ], and 江 belongs to the final group 江, reconstructed as *[ɰɑwŋ], and has the "Level" tone. So in (my version of) the MC reconstruction, 䄝 was pronounced something like *[ʈʰɰɑwŋ] in some stage of (early) MC. </p>

<p>Now, this syllable eventually became MSM <code>chuang1</code> through sound changes. But if you are wondering what happened to something close to *[tʂʰiɑŋ], the medial [-i-] became [-u-] in that particular position and became MSM <code>chuang</code> as well.</p>

<p>You might wonder what the heck happened so that you get superficially in MSM <code>ch + iang = chuang</code> in this case. </p>

<p>The onset 徹, reconstructed as a stop in Early MC, entirely became an affricate *[tʂʰ] at some point (and merged with the existing retroflex affricates). This is why you don't see this sound change superficially.</p>

<p>The final 江 developed differently depending on the conditions. In any case it was completely merged with the final set of 阳 *[ɑŋ]. The medial *[-ɰ-] disappeared in most cases, but turned into a [-u-] after retroflexes in Mandarin, and, distinctively, developed into an [-i-] after dorsals (i.e. velars, and glottals if your reconstruction has them) in historical Northern Mandarin dialects. Now, the character 江 happens to have a dorsal onset 见 *[k-] (velar), so the medial *[-ɰ-] there turned into [-i-], which, by the way is how you've got the palatalized onset <code>j</code>.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-04-16T00:12:11.480Z
2017-04-16T00:12:11.480Z
Rethliopuks
<p>The 反切 in 廣韻 use Middle Chinese pronunciation, so one cannot take the modern readings of the 反切 上下字 as a guide to how a word might be pronounced.<br></p>

<p>In this case, you are looking at words in the 江 rhyme category. These words have developed a -j- medial in Mandarin (when there is a velar initial) that was not present in Middle Chinese. Other dialects have not. Compare, for instance, the Cantonese pronunciation of 江 "gong".</p>

<p>Although  is not a "living" character, words which are in the same initial and rhyme categories are still around, such as 撞 zhuang. This is the regular development. </p>

<p>Mandarin has never had retroflex initials followed by medial -j-; in fact, this would seem to be a very unlikely combination in any language.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-03-10T13:48:34.317Z
2017-03-10T13:48:34.317Z
wpt
<p>Came across this today:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>《廣韻·平·江》：“，短敞衣也，丑江切。”</p>
</blockquote>

<p> has MSM pronunciation chuāng but if we take 丑江切 that means we have ch + iang = chiang.</p>

<p>Other characters with 丑江切 seem to include:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.zdic.net/z/13/kx/468E.htm" rel="nofollow noreferrer">䚎</a> (MSM: also chuāng)</p>

<p><a href="http://www.zdic.net/z/19/kx/6183.htm" rel="nofollow noreferrer">憃</a> (MSM: chōng)</p>

<p>广韵 isn't exactly modern and 丑江切 seems to come out differently in different cases today.</p>

<p>What I'm mainly curious about here though is:</p>

<p>Did (modern) Mandarin Pinyin <code>chiang</code> used to exist?</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-03-10T11:38:20.723Z
What does "Msm" mean?
Ludi
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-03-10T13:02:04.030Z
Modern Standard Mandarin
Mou某
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-03-10T17:36:58.973Z
Useful things: Can you look up what the middle chinese initial and final are? The rhymes are kind of useful, but the specific categories are a less roundabout way of specifying this.
Stumpy Joe Pete
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-03-10T18:55:26.330Z
This is the problem with using Modern Standard Mandarin with the Middle Chinese Guangyun. Even a more straightforward case like 江 itself, which is 古雙切, but is definitely not *guāng in 普通话 nowadays. Yet 江 I believe is a regular development of its Middle Chinese version.
Michaelyus
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-03-10T19:00:10.037Z
@StumpyJoePete 徹江切 which would be /ʈʰaɨwŋ/ by Pulleyblank.
Michaelyus
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-04-18T09:27:35.907Z
古代的并不是完全和现代普通话相同，有些发音是逐渐废弃的，只在方言中有些保留。
Daniel Yang
<pronunciation>
Did Mandarin Pinyin `chiang` used to exist?
# Did Mandarin Pinyin `chiang` used to exist?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2017-03-10)

Came across this today:

> 《廣韻·平·江》：“，短敞衣也，丑江切。”

has MSM pronunciation chuāng but if we take 丑江切 that means we have ch + iang = chiang.

Other characters with 丑江切 seem to include:

[䚎](http://www.zdic.net/z/13/kx/468E.htm) (MSM: also chuāng)

[憃](http://www.zdic.net/z/19/kx/6183.htm) (MSM: chōng)

广韵 isn't exactly modern and 丑江切 seems to come out differently in different cases today.

What I'm mainly curious about here though is:

Did (modern) Mandarin Pinyin `chiang` used to exist?

**Tags:** pronunciation

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: What does "Msm" mean?  
> **username_0**: Modern Standard Mandarin  
> **username_2**: Useful things: Can you look up what the middle chinese initial and final are? The rhymes are kind of useful, but the specific categories are a less roundabout way of specifying this.  
> **username_3**: This is the problem with using Modern Standard Mandarin with the Middle Chinese Guangyun. Even a more straightforward case like 江 itself, which is 古雙切, but is definitely not *guāng in 普通话 nowadays. Yet 江 I believe is a regular development of its Middle Chinese version.  
> **username_3**: @StumpyJoePete 徹江切 which would be /ʈʰaɨwŋ/ by Pulleyblank.  
> **username_4**: 古代的并不是完全和现代普通话相同，有些发音是逐渐废弃的，只在方言中有些保留。  

---

## 3 answers

### Answer by username_7 on 2017-03-10. Score: 6 | Accepted answer

The 反切 in 廣韻 use Middle Chinese pronunciation, so one cannot take the modern readings of the 反切 上下字 as a guide to how a word might be pronounced.

In this case, you are looking at words in the 江 rhyme category. These words have developed a -j- medial in Mandarin (when there is a velar initial) that was not present in Middle Chinese. Other dialects have not. Compare, for instance, the Cantonese pronunciation of 江 "gong".

Although is not a "living" character, words which are in the same initial and rhyme categories are still around, such as 撞 zhuang. This is the regular development.

Mandarin has never had retroflex initials followed by medial -j-; in fact, this would seem to be a very unlikely combination in any language.


---

### Answer by username_5 on 2017-04-09. Score: 0

Most words with Mandarin initial zh, ch, sh, or r had a medial -i- in Middle Chinese. (If you know about 等 "division," modern zh, ch, sh, r come from divisions II and III, with III being more common.)

So, if you read the old dictionaries naively, you will expect to see "shiao" "zhiang" "rin" and so forth. The -i- was lost on the way to Modern Chinese.

It seems that there were sounds like "chiao" in the Zhongyuan Yinyun (from 1324). For instance there was a difference between 抄 (chao) and 超 (chiao). (You can look up ZYYY and more on zdic.net -- but realize that the romanizations are the work of modern scholars.)

You can also see evidence of the -i- in Cantonese, where for example 张 is pronounced the same as 将.


---

### Answer by username_6 on 2017-04-16. Score: 0

You have to specify what you mean.

If you mean the actual sound -- yes, it happens to have existed.

If you mean whether the sound existed in the history of Mandarin, not Middle Chinese -- yes, it happens to.

If you mean whether at some point the character 䄝 was pronounced like Modern Standard Mandarin `chiang`, uh probably not.

To go through some Middle Chinese reconstruction details, 丑 has onset 徹 in MC, reconstructed as \*[ʈʰ], and 江 belongs to the final group 江, reconstructed as \*[ɰɑwŋ], and has the "Level" tone. So in (my version of) the MC reconstruction, 䄝 was pronounced something like \*[ʈʰɰɑwŋ] in some stage of (early) MC.

Now, this syllable eventually became MSM `chuang1` through sound changes. But if you are wondering what happened to something close to \*[tʂʰiɑŋ], the medial [-i-] became [-u-] in that particular position and became MSM `chuang` as well.

You might wonder what the heck happened so that you get superficially in MSM `ch + iang = chuang` in this case.

The onset 徹, reconstructed as a stop in Early MC, entirely became an affricate \*[tʂʰ] at some point (and merged with the existing retroflex affricates). This is why you don't see this sound change superficially.

The final 江 developed differently depending on the conditions. In any case it was completely merged with the final set of 阳 \*[ɑŋ]. The medial \*[-ɰ-] disappeared in most cases, but turned into a [-u-] after retroflexes in Mandarin, and, distinctively, developed into an [-i-] after dorsals (i.e. velars, and glottals if your reconstruction has them) in historical Northern Mandarin dialects. Now, the character 江 happens to have a dorsal onset 见 \*[k-] (velar), so the medial \*[-ɰ-] there turned into [-i-], which, by the way is how you've got the palatalized onset `j`.


---

