<p>The duplicate <a href="https://chinese.stackexchange.com/questions/38424/why-is-the-pinyin-for-%E6%B3%A2-bo1-not-buo1-and-why-is-%E5%A4%9A-duo1-instead-of-do1">question</a> has a correct explanation, but it wasn't explained clear enough.</p>
<p>The final sounds (韵母) of Chinese characters are divided into <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_hu" rel="noreferrer">four types</a>, called 开口呼, 齐齿呼, 合口呼, 撮口呼. The classification is based on the initial shape of your mouth, when you are beginning to pronounce that sound.</p>
<p>The final sounds <code>a, o, e</code> belong to 开口呼, because you simply open your mouth to pronounce these sounds. On the other hand, <code>uo</code> belongs to 合口呼, which means to pronounce this sound you initially close your mouth to pronounce the <code>u</code> sound.</p>
<p>When the initial sound is <code>b, p, m, f</code> and the central vowel is <code>o</code>, theoretically there can be two different sounds:</p>
<ol>
<li>After closing your mouth to pronounce <code>b</code>, you immediately open your mouth to pronounce <code>o</code> (开口呼);</li>
<li>You keep your mouth closed a little longer, and then open your mouth to pronounce <code>o</code> (合口呼).</li>
</ol>
<p>If there were a phonemic contrast between the two sounds, the first sound would be considered <code>bo</code>, and the second one would be considered <code>buo</code>. However, this contrast does not exist in the standard variant of Mandarin since 20th century. Therefore, only one of the two transliterations <code>bo</code> and <code>buo</code> can be considered standard.</p>
<p>In 1920 a decision was made to make <code>bo</code> the standard spelling instead of <code>buo</code>. The reason was that &quot;when you pronounce <code>b</code> you already closed your mouth, so there is no need for an extra <code>u</code> marker, even though most people pronounce it in the 合口呼 way. Note that this decision was made in the context of a <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bopomofo" rel="noreferrer">transliteration system</a> much older than the Pinyin system. When the Pinyin system was designed (in 1958) it inherited many design decisions in older systems, including the decision to drop the <code>u</code> marker when the initial sound is <code>b, p, m, f</code>.</p>
<p>Summary:</p>
<ol>
<li>The correct way to pronounce <code>bo, po, mo, fo</code> is <code>buo, puo, muo, fuo</code>;</li>
<li>Because there is no phonemic contrast between <code>bo</code> and <code>buo</code>, it was decided that <code>buo</code> would be simply written as <code>bo</code>, dropping the <code>u</code> marker.</li>
</ol>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-05T10:04:53.613Z
The _true_ phonemic contrast from a historical perspective is between _de-duo, te-tuo, se-suo_; but there is no _*be, *pe, *me, *fe_ in the standard (although you may hear this accent sometimes). This merged _*be-*buo_ is represented as _bo_.
Michaelyus
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-05T02:52:17.547Z
2023-10-05T02:52:17.547Z
user2249675
<p>No error, they are indeed not the same sound.  It is possible that you fail to hear the difference from not having quite enough practice yet, or you are listening to an accent/speaker that doesn't differenciate.</p>
<p>The difference is there though.  To me the difference is just as clear as hun vs huan or han vs hang :)</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-05T02:29:39.840Z
it is easy to notice the difference between z and zh, c and ch, s and sh, but the difference you mention is really beyond me and many others, native Mandarin speakers included, to be honest.
NanningYouth
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-05T22:26:06.263Z
@NanningYouth its true there are definitely differences even natives don't recognize, all depending on accent.  Just like some natives also don't differentiate the three you just mentioned well, or don't differentiate n and l, or don't differentiate whichever other things.  Objectively the difference is there in standard mandarin, so thats why its in pinyin :)
zagrycha
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-11T18:23:54.630Z
They are the same sound in standard mandarin. It's a spelling convention, as there's no need to distinguish bou vs buo (only the latter exists), while there is a need to distinguish gou vs guo (both exist).
Stumpy Joe Pete
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-13T04:01:15.777Z
@StumpyJoePete I still think there is a firm difference in sound, between the "o" in  窩 and the "uo" in 郭  etc.  Obviously varies by accent, but in standard mandarin such as newcasters I hear it for sure.
zagrycha
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-04T15:30:17.323Z
2023-10-04T15:30:17.323Z
zagrycha
<p>These sounds are different, &quot;zhùyīn&quot; clearly shows when/why &quot;o&quot; or &quot;uo&quot; is to be used.</p>
<p>莫(mò, ㄇ<strong>ㄛˋ</strong>), 我(wǒ, ㄨ<strong>ㄛˇ</strong>), 坡(pō, ㄆ<strong>ㄛˉ</strong>),波(bō, ㄅ<strong>ㄛ</strong>)</p>
<p>国(guó, ㄍ<strong>ㄨㄛˊ</strong>), 洛(luò, ㄌ<strong>ㄨㄛˋ</strong>), 错(cuò, ㄘ<strong>ㄨㄛˋ</strong>)</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-05T02:38:45.480Z
Are you using the Japanese system?
NanningYouth
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-05T03:09:45.533Z
@NanningYouth This is not Japanese. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bopomofo

The Bopomofo characters were created by Zhang Binglin, taken mainly from "regularized" forms of ancient Chinese characters, the modern readings of which contain the sound that each letter represents.
user2249675
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-04T14:56:48.657Z
2023-10-04T16:22:35.833Z
2023-10-04T16:22:35.833Z
r13
<p>The most striking cases are:</p>
<p>莫 (mo), 我(wo), 坡(po),波(bo),</p>
<p>but</p>
<p>国(guo), 洛(luo), 错(cuo), etc, with one &quot;u&quot; added, which is unnecessary.</p>
<p>To my ears, they are the same, aren't they?</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-04T08:37:34.457Z
I must say you're right, this is inconsistent. (hence +1). My guess is that if you use (go) for "国", no one will get it right. Same for (lo) and (co).
Nobody
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-04T09:27:16.000Z
No, they are not the same.
fat penguin
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-04T11:08:08.480Z
Possible duplicate of: [Why is the Pinyin for 波 bo1 not buo1? And why is 多 duo1 instead of do1?](https://chinese.stackexchange.com/questions/38424/why-is-the-pinyin-for-%E6%B3%A2-bo1-not-buo1-and-why-is-%E5%A4%9A-duo1-instead-of-do1)
Michaelyus
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-05T02:26:50.890Z
@Michaelyus Thanks. But during my preparation of the question, there is no clue or tip or whatever telling me that somebody has asked the same question, that's why I thought I was so smart and creative...LOL.
NanningYouth
<pinyin>
Is the Pinyin made for some Chinese characters in double standard?
# Is the Pinyin made for some Chinese characters in double standard?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2023-10-04)

The most striking cases are:

莫 (mo), 我(wo), 坡(po),波(bo),

but

国(guo), 洛(luo), 错(cuo), etc, with one "u" added, which is unnecessary.

To my ears, they are the same, aren't they?

**Tags:** pinyin

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: I must say you're right, this is inconsistent. (hence +1). My guess is that if you use (go) for "国", no one will get it right. Same for (lo) and (co).  
> **username_2**: No, they are not the same.  
> **username_3**: Possible duplicate of: [Why is the Pinyin for 波 bo1 not buo1? And why is 多 duo1 instead of do1?](https://chinese.stackexchange.com/questions/38424/why-is-the-pinyin-for-%E6%B3%A2-bo1-not-buo1-and-why-is-%E5%A4%9A-duo1-instead-of-do1)  
> **username_0**: @username_3 Thanks. But during my preparation of the question, there is no clue or tip or whatever telling me that somebody has asked the same question, that's why I thought I was so smart and creative...LOL.  

---

## 3 answers

### Answer by username_4 on 2023-10-05. Score: 5

The duplicate [question](https://chinese.stackexchange.com/questions/38424/why-is-the-pinyin-for-%E6%B3%A2-bo1-not-buo1-and-why-is-%E5%A4%9A-duo1-instead-of-do1) has a correct explanation, but it wasn't explained clear enough.

The final sounds (韵母) of Chinese characters are divided into [four types](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_hu), called 开口呼, 齐齿呼, 合口呼, 撮口呼. The classification is based on the initial shape of your mouth, when you are beginning to pronounce that sound.

The final sounds `a, o, e` belong to 开口呼, because you simply open your mouth to pronounce these sounds. On the other hand, `uo` belongs to 合口呼, which means to pronounce this sound you initially close your mouth to pronounce the `u` sound.

When the initial sound is `b, p, m, f` and the central vowel is `o`, theoretically there can be two different sounds:

1. After closing your mouth to pronounce `b`, you immediately open your mouth to pronounce `o` (开口呼);
2. You keep your mouth closed a little longer, and then open your mouth to pronounce `o` (合口呼).

If there were a phonemic contrast between the two sounds, the first sound would be considered `bo`, and the second one would be considered `buo`. However, this contrast does not exist in the standard variant of Mandarin since 20th century. Therefore, only one of the two transliterations `bo` and `buo` can be considered standard.

In 1920 a decision was made to make `bo` the standard spelling instead of `buo`. The reason was that "when you pronounce `b` you already closed your mouth, so there is no need for an extra `u` marker, even though most people pronounce it in the 合口呼 way. Note that this decision was made in the context of a [transliteration system](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bopomofo) much older than the Pinyin system. When the Pinyin system was designed (in 1958) it inherited many design decisions in older systems, including the decision to drop the `u` marker when the initial sound is `b, p, m, f`.

Summary:

1. The correct way to pronounce `bo, po, mo, fo` is `buo, puo, muo, fuo`;
2. Because there is no phonemic contrast between `bo` and `buo`, it was decided that `buo` would be simply written as `bo`, dropping the `u` marker.

> **Comments:**
> **username_3**: The _true_ phonemic contrast from a historical perspective is between _de-duo, te-tuo, se-suo_; but there is no _*be, *pe, *me, *fe_ in the standard (although you may hear this accent sometimes). This merged _*be-*buo_ is represented as _bo_.  

---

### Answer by username_5 on 2023-10-04. Score: 0

No error, they are indeed not the same sound. It is possible that you fail to hear the difference from not having quite enough practice yet, or you are listening to an accent/speaker that doesn't differenciate.

The difference is there though. To me the difference is just as clear as hun vs huan or han vs hang :)

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: it is easy to notice the difference between z and zh, c and ch, s and sh, but the difference you mention is really beyond me and many others, native Mandarin speakers included, to be honest.  
> **username_5**: @username_0 its true there are definitely differences even natives don't recognize, all depending on accent.  Just like some natives also don't differentiate the three you just mentioned well, or don't differentiate n and l, or don't differentiate whichever other things.  Objectively the difference is there in standard mandarin, so thats why its in pinyin :)  
> **username_6**: They are the same sound in standard mandarin. It's a spelling convention, as there's no need to distinguish bou vs buo (only the latter exists), while there is a need to distinguish gou vs guo (both exist).  
> **username_5**: @StumpyJoePete I still think there is a firm difference in sound, between the "o" in  窩 and the "uo" in 郭  etc.  Obviously varies by accent, but in standard mandarin such as newcasters I hear it for sure.  

---

### Answer by username_7 on 2023-10-04. Score: -1

These sounds are different, "zhùyīn" clearly shows when/why "o" or "uo" is to be used.

莫(mò, ㄇ**ㄛˋ**), 我(wǒ, ㄨ**ㄛˇ**), 坡(pō, ㄆ**ㄛˉ**),波(bō, ㄅ**ㄛ**)

国(guó, ㄍ**ㄨㄛˊ**), 洛(luò, ㄌ**ㄨㄛˋ**), 错(cuò, ㄘ**ㄨㄛˋ**)

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Are you using the Japanese system?  
> **username_4**: @username_0 This is not Japanese. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bopomofo  The Bopomofo characters were created by Zhang Binglin, taken mainly from "regularized" forms of ancient Chinese characters, the modern readings of which contain the sound that each letter represents.  

---

