<p>in the book “天工開物” by 宋應星, published in 明 dynasty; volume 卷中, chapter <a href="https://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&amp;chapter=532275#%E5%A4%A9%E5%B7%A5%E9%96%8B%E7%89%A9%E5%8D%B7%E4%B8%AD%E9%99%B6%E5%9F%8F%E7%AC%AC%E4%B8%83" rel="nofollow noreferrer">陶埏第七 白瓷、附靑瓷</a> mentioned:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>白土・白堊土</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p>. . . 皆饒郡浮梁景德鎭之產也・此鎭從古及今為燒器地・然不產白土・土出婺源・祁門・兩山一名高梁山・出粳米土・其性堅硬・一名開化山・出糯米土・其性粢軟・兩土和合・瓷器方成</p>
</blockquote>
<p>most likely, “高嶺土” referred to the clay from “高梁山”</p>
<blockquote>
<p>what is the way Chinese actually historically and presently talks about</p>
</blockquote>
<p>so, the options are</p>
<ul>
<li>白土</li>
<li>白堊土</li>
<li>粳米土</li>
<li>糯米土</li>
</ul>
<p>have fun :)</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-06-23T12:04:03.120Z
Thanks so much for your reply and the great source! That's definitely one historic account of the process. It does cover some things that should be added to the Jingdezhen porcelain article: presumably JDZ was _never_ a source of the earth and became the center of production for other reasons (good airflow for the kilns, better access to water & wood, &c.). Right now, it doesn't fully answer the question since—unless they're really different in Gan—none of those options cover where the European term came from... although it's always possible it was just some local slang that never got written.
lly
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-06-23T12:13:37.450Z
It could also be improved a bit by taking some of the options out of the list. At least in that source, it seems like 白土 and probably (?) 白堊土 are talking about kaolin which looks more like powder but makes the hard core of the porcelain under heat. Both 糯米土 (nuòmǐtǔ, sticky-rice dirt) and 粳米土 (jīngmǐtǔ, short-grain-rice dirt) do look like names for the stonier-looking but softer-in-practice feldspar rocks, though, at least for Song Yingxing and his scholarly Ming audience.
lly
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-06-23T08:44:29.443Z
2024-06-23T08:44:29.443Z
水巷孑蠻
<p>Have you ever noticed that the Chinese are very frugal with words? For example, in England, we have towns like: Clacton on Sea, Southend on Sea.</p>
<p>Not so the Chinese, they just have the nameless: on Sea: 上海!</p>
<p>If you go walking in the sierra in Spain, well, nowadays, people don't look at the breathtaking scenery, they just stare at the screen of their mobile phone. In the past, before the advent of mobiles, that was not so.</p>
<p>How did you know where you were going back then? Well, locals often make little piles of stones, look for them. Often there will be a little, long, narrow stone on top, pointing the way. They tell you: this is a path to somewhere.</p>
<p>That is what “十里墩”、“白墩” are: path or road markers along the way. Piles of stones. People began to build villages near the 墩子, and often the village might just take, for reasons of frugality, the name of the 墩子.</p>
<p>五河县城东、淮河北岸有村名“十里墩”，<br />
(In) East 五河 county, on the north bank of the river 淮 there is a village called “十里墩” (5 mile village)<br />
在双忠庙镇、104国道边旧有“白墩乡”，<br />
in 双忠庙 town, near the national highway 104 is an old village called “白墩乡” (white pile village)<br />
根据史志推断，地名由来已久.<br />
according to historical records, these names are very old.</p>
<p>There are probably many 白墩子 and many 白墩乡 in China.</p>
<p>In this case,  白墩子 has become the name of a whole region!</p>
<p>白墩子，湖盐产地。<br />
白墩子，a lake salt producing area.<br />
位于甘肃红水、靖远两县境内，<br />
located within the borders of 甘肃红水 and 靖远<br />
距省城四百七十里，<br />
470 li from the capital city,<br />
东至红水县的宽沟五十余里，<br />
extending more than 50 li to宽沟 the east of 红水县<br />
南至一条山七十里，<br />
70 li to the south reaching the 一条山 mountain range (a very frugal name!)<br />
东南至靖远县城三百六十里，<br />
360 li southeast to 靖远县,<br />
北至蒙古界十余里。<br />
and more than 10 li to the Mongolian border in the north.<br />
盐池东西长约五里，<br />
the salt lake is about 5 li from east west,<br />
南北宽十余里。所产盐含有硝质，多用作制造红丝水烟的原料。<br />
from north to south the lake is more than 10 li.<br />
所产盐含有硝质，<br />
The salt which is produced there contains saltpeter (potassium nitrate)<br />
多用作制造红丝水烟的原料<br />
which is useful in the manufacture of red silk hookahs (water pipes).</p>
<p>And, presumably, porcelain!</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-06-23T11:52:06.907Z
Thanks for the reply but, yep, you should add sources. Nope, the nitrate-laden salt in the wrong region of the country with no porcelain production definitely has nothing to do with millennia of constant porcelain production. Beyond that, it's also both unusual for Chinese names to be as prosaic as Shanghai is (they're generally poetic once things grow beyond village level) and _kinda_ untrue that Shanghai is _just_ On-the-Sea. It's always been 上海縣, 上海市, etc. with the level carrying some of the meaning the same way English says Kingston, Clacton, Sussex, &c. and not just King's, Clac, Sus, &c.
lly
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-06-23T12:23:18.463Z
Oh, someone upvoted the initial comment so I shouldn't just replace it. I can't edit it now either, but, in fairness, I should say that the "definitely" above really should've been "almost certainly" instead. It's _pooossible_ there _is_ a source out there making the connection.
lly
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-06-23T15:49:44.983Z
Sussex:  Suþ Seaxe "(land of the) South Saxons" Never heard of Sussex upon Sea, presumably because it is a county, but I do know Kingston upon Thames. The suffix -ton would correspond with 镇. If you call 上海 上海市,   you still have no name, neither poetic nor prosaic,  just on Sea market! Where do the Chinese store all these words they save? Where is the Word Bank?
Pedroski
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-06-23T16:36:46.683Z
That & there's no landlocked Sussex to distinguish it from. Point was the second word was part of the name and translating South on its own would be bizarre and unhelpful. -ton would correspond with 邑, 州, 郡, 府, 市, 縣, 鎮, &c. at different times. Precisely my point: you're treating common names and top-line dictionary results as accurate summations of the full meanings of the full names... which, no, doesn't work. Really far in the weeds now, but Market-by-the-Sea is _precisely_ what Shanghai was, although it got the name when it was a 鎮 (which covers counties _and_ their seats &c.).
lly
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-06-23T16:43:02.803Z
And, as far as where the Chinese store the words they save, eh, they just consider it civilized to aim for terse eloquence. If that's really so uncomfortable, you probably wanna stay well clear of literary Chinese. The Chinese translations are always the lightest at the UN tables. Literary Chinese would fit on postcards... & sometimes did when kids were aiming to cheat on the provincial exams by cramming all of Confucius onto the inside of a shirt. There's a museum at Jiading's Confucian Temple that has some examples.
lly
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-06-23T18:08:49.033Z
Napoleonic type meets Chinese man selling 白墩子的湖盐. Napoleonic type: Comment appelle-t-on ce genre de sel ? 法国人: 这种盐叫什么名字？ 中国人: 这种盐叫白墩子的湖盐. 法国人: Comment? p dune se de 'u yen?? Nous l’appellerons p dune se, c'est bon! Vive La France!
Pedroski
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-06-24T12:21:11.653Z
Again, still has nothing to do with salt. The point is the Baike Baidu article is about something entirely different and the term is extremely uncommon in modern Chinese. The guys who replaced Needham actually claim it used to be extremely common but I have my doubts.
lly
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-06-24T13:30:39.093Z
There are many salt trails across the Sahara desert, which is only slightly smaller than China. Brave and incredibly tough people still transport conical shaped salt "pillars" across  the desert on camels to remote oases guided only by their instincts. A much harsher place than China! The word salary derives from salt: part of the pay of Roman legionnaires was salt. You should not denigrate salt!  I did find this as an explanation for Petuntse: 白墩子（一种精炼的白瓷土，做成墩状以便运输）；做成墩状: pillars of 白瓷土 So what do they need the 高嶺土 for? Jesuits never did anything except cause trouble!
Pedroski
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-07-01T08:00:06.220Z
Fwiw, _Salt: A World History_ is a fun book + salt was especially vital in China because of its importance in taxation and funding various major cities (particularly Yangzhou). Similarly, the Jesuits were helpful in modernizing China (Xu Guangqi translated Euclid primarily for the obvious benefit it provided to Chinese cannon) before they got kneecapped by jealous Franciscans and Dominicans.  Absolutely none of that has anything whatsoever to do with Jingdezhen or its porcelain, however.
lly
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-07-01T08:00:37.817Z
Anyway, at least the last quote was on topic and, yeah, that does seem to be the right form according to Needham & co. If you wanted to edit your answer to remove the salt bits and focus on that, I'll change my vote for one.
lly
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-06-23T09:15:18.143Z
2024-06-23T09:15:18.143Z
Pedroski
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/KnSXz46G.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/KnSXz46G.png" alt="http://www.chinatoday.com.cn/english/culture/2016-05/12/content_720530.htm" /></a></p>
<p>Good china is made with kaolin, clay with an ample amount of kaolinite. Wiki's pretty clear that “<a href="https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kaolin" rel="nofollow noreferrer">kaolin</a>” derives—via 18th-century French Jesuit mangling of <em>gāolǐngtǔ</em> (高嶺土)—from the village of Gaoling in Fuliang County near Jingdezhen in Jiangxi.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaolinite" rel="nofollow noreferrer">¹</a><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingdezhen" rel="nofollow noreferrer">²</a>*</p>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/BMcl6Yzu.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/BMcl6Yzu.png" alt="kaolin" /></a></p>
<p>From its first appearance in English in 1727, though, it was paired with a second ingredient variously transcribed as <em>petunse</em>,<a href="https://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/petunse" rel="nofollow noreferrer">³</a> <em>pih-tun-tsze</em>,<a href="https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Encyclop%C3%A6dia_Britannica,_Ninth_Edition/King-tih_Chin" rel="nofollow noreferrer">⁴</a> <em>pai-tun-tsze</em>,<a href="https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1911_Encyclop%C3%A6dia_Britannica/King-t%C3%AA_Ch%C3%AAn" rel="nofollow noreferrer">⁵</a> <em>petuntse</em>,<a href="https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-botanic-garden-part-ii/" rel="nofollow noreferrer">⁶</a> &amp;c.</p>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/QStVA1En.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/QStVA1En.png" alt="w0t" /></a></p>
<p>Wiki does have an article on that, too,<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petuntse" rel="nofollow noreferrer">⁷</a> but it's nonsensically sourced &amp; can't link to a Chinese article or back up its claim that the actual Chinese term is <em>báidūnzì</em> (白墩子).<sup><sup>[citation needed]</sup></sup>† Instead, most English sources just repeat different variations of old <em>Encyclopaedia Britannica</em> articles repeating updated forms of what the Jesuit called the stuff.</p>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/F0CoE57V.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/F0CoE57V.png" alt="Extraction du Kaolin (left) et du petuntse (right), 19th century French illustration" /></a></p>
<p>Meanwhile, 白墩子 doesn't appear at all on the actual Chinese Wiki and it only shows up on the shanzhai Chinese wiki as some Mongolian nitrate-laden salt.<a href="https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E7%99%BD%E5%A2%A9%E5%AD%90" rel="nofollow noreferrer">⁸</a> The Chinese Wiki article on hard-paste porcelain—the process they used at Jingdezhen—just says it involves <em>gāolǐngtǔ</em> and <em>chángshí</em> (長石).<a href="https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%A1%AC%E8%B4%A8%E7%93%B7" rel="nofollow noreferrer">⁹</a> The Hong Kong Maritime Museum<a href="https://www.hkmaritimemuseum.org/post/china-porcelain-production" rel="nofollow noreferrer">¹⁰</a> and a handful of other sites do mention the porcelain stone <em>petunse</em> but say it's a transcription of <em>báidūncí</em> (白墩瓷) instead. Under the heading <em>pĭh tun tsze</em>, Robert Morrison's 1819 <em>Dictionary of the Chinese Language</em> gives 白墪子 but with a 敢 and 子 in the top half of the central character instead of 敦... and with the note that &quot;the characters are doubtful.&quot;<a href="https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=tbstS37c_uwC&amp;pg=PA667" rel="nofollow noreferrer">¹¹</a></p>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/TpnQwCWJ.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/TpnQwCWJ.png" alt="1809 illustration of Petuntse in British Mineralogy, Vol. III" /></a></p>
<p>I assume the basic chemistry is right and a feldspar-rich stone was used to create Jingdezhen porcelain, but <strong>what is the way Chinese actually historically and presently talks about that stuff?</strong> &amp; <strong>does anyone have any firm source for what term <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Xavier_d%27Entrecolles" rel="nofollow noreferrer">François Xavier d'Entrecolles</a> was trying to transcribe?</strong></p>
<hr />
<p><sup><sup>* Although strangely enough, the article on &quot;<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingdezhen_pottery" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Jingdezhen pottery</a>&quot; itself has absolutely no mention of the materials used to create it and seems focused on establishing the exact provenance and chronological order of the pieces in the British Museum collection. Go figure.</sup></sup><br>
<sup><sup>† Naturally, the page's <a href="https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q7179426&amp;oldid=2180117329" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Wikidata entry</a> not only doesn't include any Chinese, it exclusively includes the atonal pinyin romanization <em>baiduncai</em> in its English list. Since that's the <strong>only</strong> appearance of &quot;white lump vegetable&quot; on the internet, though, it's obviously unintentional vandalism by someone misunderstanding the Jesuit <em>ts</em> as a modern pinyin <em>c</em> and is easy enough to fix. [Done.]</sup></sup></p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-06-23T12:51:53.893Z
I'm an idiot. _Of course_ Needham covered this at some point. I just found it in [_Science & Civilization in China_, Vol. V, Pt. 12](https://books.google.fr/books?id=mabcHwmAD5oC), p. 225. Rather than add it in myself, though, I'll leave a few days for @Petroski and/or
lly
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-06-23T12:52:01.247Z
@水巷孑蠻 add it into their answers below or let another editor add it as a new answer. If no one does, I can put it up myself later.
lly
<character-identification><word-requests><history><technology><art>
So... what the heck was petunse / pih-tun-tsze / pai-tun-tsze / petuntse / patootie?
# So... what the heck was petunse / pih-tun-tsze / pai-tun-tsze / petuntse / patootie?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2024-06-23)

[![http://www.chinatoday.com.cn/english/culture/2016-05/12/content_720530.htm](https://i.sstatic.net/KnSXz46G.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/KnSXz46G.png)

Good china is made with kaolin, clay with an ample amount of kaolinite. Wiki's pretty clear that “[kaolin](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kaolin)” derives—via 18th-century French Jesuit mangling of *gāolǐngtǔ* (高嶺土)—from the village of Gaoling in Fuliang County near Jingdezhen in Jiangxi.[¹](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaolinite)[²](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingdezhen)\*

[![kaolin](https://i.sstatic.net/BMcl6Yzu.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/BMcl6Yzu.png)

From its first appearance in English in 1727, though, it was paired with a second ingredient variously transcribed as *petunse*,[³](https://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/petunse) *pih-tun-tsze*,[⁴](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Encyclop%C3%A6dia_Britannica,_Ninth_Edition/King-tih_Chin) *pai-tun-tsze*,[⁵](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1911_Encyclop%C3%A6dia_Britannica/King-t%C3%AA_Ch%C3%AAn) *petuntse*,[⁶](https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-botanic-garden-part-ii/) &c.

[![w0t](https://i.sstatic.net/QStVA1En.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/QStVA1En.png)

Wiki does have an article on that, too,[⁷](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petuntse) but it's nonsensicausername_0 sourced & can't link to a Chinese article or back up its claim that the actual Chinese term is *báidūnzì* (白墩子).[citation needed]† Instead, most English sources just repeat different variations of old *Encyclopaedia Britannica* articles repeating updated forms of what the Jesuit called the stuff.

[![Extraction du Kaolin (left) et du petuntse (right), 19th century French illustration](https://i.sstatic.net/F0CoE57V.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/F0CoE57V.png)

Meanwhile, 白墩子 doesn't appear at all on the actual Chinese Wiki and it only shows up on the shanzhai Chinese wiki as some Mongolian nitrate-laden salt.[⁸](https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E7%99%BD%E5%A2%A9%E5%AD%90) The Chinese Wiki article on hard-paste porcelain—the process they used at Jingdezhen—just says it involves *gāolǐngtǔ* and *chángshí* (長石).[⁹](https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%A1%AC%E8%B4%A8%E7%93%B7) The Hong Kong Maritime Museum[¹⁰](https://www.hkmaritimemuseum.org/post/china-porcelain-production) and a handful of other sites do mention the porcelain stone *petunse* but say it's a transcription of *báidūncí* (白墩瓷) instead. Under the heading *pĭh tun tsze*, Robert Morrison's 1819 *Dictionary of the Chinese Language* gives 白墪子 but with a 敢 and 子 in the top half of the central character instead of 敦... and with the note that "the characters are doubtful."[¹¹](https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=tbstS37c_uwC&pg=PA667)

[![1809 illustration of Petuntse in British Mineralogy, Vol. III](https://i.sstatic.net/TpnQwCWJ.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/TpnQwCWJ.png)

I assume the basic chemistry is right and a feldspar-rich stone was used to create Jingdezhen porcelain, but **what is the way Chinese actuausername_0 historicausername_0 and presently talks about that stuff?** & **does anyone have any firm source for what term [François Xavier d'Entrecolles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Xavier_d%27Entrecolles) was trying to transcribe?**

---

\* Although strangely enough, the article on "[Jingdezhen pottery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingdezhen_pottery)" itself has absolutely no mention of the materials used to create it and seems focused on establishing the exact provenance and chronological order of the pieces in the British Museum collection. Go figure.  
† Naturausername_0, the page's [Wikidata entry](https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q7179426&oldid=2180117329) not only doesn't include any Chinese, it exclusively includes the atonal pinyin romanization *baiduncai* in its English list. Since that's the **only** appearance of "white lump vegetable" on the internet, though, it's obviously unintentional vandalism by someone misunderstanding the Jesuit *ts* as a modern pinyin *c* and is easy enough to fix. [Done.]

**Tags:** character-identification, word-requests, history, technology, art

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: I'm an idiot. _Of course_ Needham covered this at some point. I just found it in [_Science & Civilization in China_, Vol. V, Pt. 12](https://books.google.fr/books?id=mabcHwmAD5oC), p. 225. Rather than add it in myself, though, I'll leave a few days for @Petroski and/or  
> **username_0**: @username_1 add it into their answers below or let another editor add it as a new answer. If no one does, I can put it up myself later.  

---

## 2 answers

### Answer by username_1 on 2024-06-23. Score: 1

in the book “天工開物” by 宋應星, published in 明 dynasty; volume 卷中, chapter [陶埏第七 白瓷、附靑瓷](https://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&chapter=532275#%E5%A4%A9%E5%B7%A5%E9%96%8B%E7%89%A9%E5%8D%B7%E4%B8%AD%E9%99%B6%E5%9F%8F%E7%AC%AC%E4%B8%83) mentioned:

> 白土・白堊土

> . . . 皆饒郡浮梁景德鎭之產也・此鎭從古及今為燒器地・然不產白土・土出婺源・祁門・兩山一名高梁山・出粳米土・其性堅硬・一名開化山・出糯米土・其性粢軟・兩土和合・瓷器方成

most likely, “高嶺土” referred to the clay from “高梁山”

> what is the way Chinese actuausername_0 historicausername_0 and presently talks about

so, the options are

* 白土
* 白堊土
* 粳米土
* 糯米土

have fun :)

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Thanks so much for your reply and the great source! That's definitely one historic account of the process. It does cover some things that should be added to the Jingdezhen porcelain article: presumably JDZ was _never_ a source of the earth and became the center of production for other reasons (good airflow for the kilns, better access to water & wood, &c.). Right now, it doesn't fuusername_0 answer the question since—unless they're reausername_0 different in Gan—none of those options cover where the European term came from... although it's always possible it was just some local slang that never got written.  
> **username_0**: It could also be improved a bit by taking some of the options out of the list. At least in that source, it seems like 白土 and probably (?) 白堊土 are talking about kaolin which looks more like powder but makes the hard core of the porcelain under heat. Both 糯米土 (nuòmǐtǔ, sticky-rice dirt) and 粳米土 (jīngmǐtǔ, short-grain-rice dirt) do look like names for the stonier-looking but softer-in-practice feldspar rocks, though, at least for Song Yingxing and his scholarly Ming audience.  

---

### Answer by username_2 on 2024-06-23. Score: -1

Have you ever noticed that the Chinese are very frugal with words? For example, in England, we have towns like: Clacton on Sea, Southend on Sea.

Not so the Chinese, they just have the nameless: on Sea: 上海!

If you go walking in the sierra in Spain, well, nowadays, people don't look at the breathtaking scenery, they just stare at the screen of their mobile phone. In the past, before the advent of mobiles, that was not so.

How did you know where you were going back then? Well, locals often make little piles of stones, look for them. Often there will be a little, long, narrow stone on top, pointing the way. They tell you: this is a path to somewhere.

That is what “十里墩”、“白墩” are: path or road markers along the way. Piles of stones. People began to build villages near the 墩子, and often the village might just take, for reasons of frugality, the name of the 墩子.

五河县城东、淮河北岸有村名“十里墩”，  
(In) East 五河 county, on the north bank of the river 淮 there is a village called “十里墩” (5 mile village)  
在双忠庙镇、104国道边旧有“白墩乡”，  
in 双忠庙 town, near the national highway 104 is an old village called “白墩乡” (white pile village)  
根据史志推断，地名由来已久.  
according to historical records, these names are very old.

There are probably many 白墩子 and many 白墩乡 in China.

In this case, 白墩子 has become the name of a whole region!

白墩子，湖盐产地。  
白墩子，a lake salt producing area.  
位于甘肃红水、靖远两县境内，  
located within the borders of 甘肃红水 and 靖远  
距省城四百七十里，  
470 li from the capital city,  
东至红水县的宽沟五十余里，  
extending more than 50 li to宽沟 the east of 红水县  
南至一条山七十里，  
70 li to the south reaching the 一条山 mountain range (a very frugal name!)  
东南至靖远县城三百六十里，  
360 li southeast to 靖远县,  
北至蒙古界十余里。  
and more than 10 li to the Mongolian border in the north.  
盐池东西长约五里，  
the salt lake is about 5 li from east west,  
南北宽十余里。所产盐含有硝质，多用作制造红丝水烟的原料。  
from north to south the lake is more than 10 li.  
所产盐含有硝质，  
The salt which is produced there contains saltpeter (potassium nitrate)  
多用作制造红丝水烟的原料  
which is useful in the manufacture of red silk hookahs (water pipes).

And, presumably, porcelain!

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Thanks for the reply but, yep, you should add sources. Nope, the nitrate-laden salt in the wrong region of the country with no porcelain production definitely has nothing to do with millennia of constant porcelain production. Beyond that, it's also both unusual for Chinese names to be as prosaic as Shanghai is (they're generausername_0 poetic once things grow beyond village level) and _kinda_ untrue that Shanghai is _just_ On-the-Sea. It's always been 上海縣, 上海市, etc. with the level carrying some of the meaning the same way English says Kingston, Clacton, Sussex, &c. and not just King's, Clac, Sus, &c.  
> **username_0**: Oh, someone upvoted the initial comment so I shouldn't just replace it. I can't edit it now either, but, in fairness, I should say that the "definitely" above reausername_0 should've been "almost certainly" instead. It's _pooossible_ there _is_ a source out there making the connection.  
> **username_2**: Sussex:  Suþ Seaxe "(land of the) South Saxons" Never heard of Sussex upon Sea, presumably because it is a county, but I do know Kingston upon Thames. The suffix -ton would correspond with 镇. If you call 上海 上海市,   you still have no name, neither poetic nor prosaic,  just on Sea market! Where do the Chinese store all these words they save? Where is the Word Bank?  
> **username_0**: That & there's no landlocked Sussex to distinguish it from. Point was the second word was part of the name and translating South on its own would be bizarre and unhelpful. -ton would correspond with 邑, 州, 郡, 府, 市, 縣, 鎮, &c. at different times. Precisely my point: you're treating common names and top-line dictionary results as accurate summations of the full meanings of the full names... which, no, doesn't work. Reausername_0 far in the weeds now, but Market-by-the-Sea is _precisely_ what Shanghai was, although it got the name when it was a 鎮 (which covers counties _and_ their seats &c.).  
> **username_0**: And, as far as where the Chinese store the words they save, eh, they just consider it civilized to aim for terse eloquence. If that's reausername_0 so uncomfortable, you probably wanna stay well clear of literary Chinese. The Chinese translations are always the lightest at the UN tables. Literary Chinese would fit on postcards... & sometimes did when kids were aiming to cheat on the provincial exams by cramming all of Confucius onto the inside of a shirt. There's a museum at Jiading's Confucian Temple that has some examples.  
> **username_2**: Napoleonic type meets Chinese man selling 白墩子的湖盐. Napoleonic type: Comment appelle-t-on ce genre de sel ? 法国人: 这种盐叫什么名字？ 中国人: 这种盐叫白墩子的湖盐. 法国人: Comment? p dune se de 'u yen?? Nous l’appellerons p dune se, c'est bon! Vive La France!  
> **username_0**: Again, still has nothing to do with salt. The point is the Baike Baidu article is about something entirely different and the term is extremely uncommon in modern Chinese. The guys who replaced Needham actuausername_0 claim it used to be extremely common but I have my doubts.  
> **username_2**: There are many salt trails across the Sahara desert, which is only slightly smaller than China. Brave and incredibly tough people still transport conical shaped salt "pillars" across  the desert on camels to remote oases guided only by their instincts. A much harsher place than China! The word salary derives from salt: part of the pay of Roman legionnaires was salt. You should not denigrate salt!  I did find this as an explanation for Petuntse: 白墩子（一种精炼的白瓷土，做成墩状以便运输）；做成墩状: pillars of 白瓷土 So what do they need the 高嶺土 for? Jesuits never did anything except cause trouble!  
> **username_0**: Fwiw, _Salt: A World History_ is a fun book + salt was especiausername_0 vital in China because of its importance in taxation and funding various major cities (particularly Yangzhou). Similarly, the Jesuits were helpful in modernizing China (Xu Guangqi translated Euclid primarily for the obvious benefit it provided to Chinese cannon) before they got kneecapped by jealous Franciscans and Dominicans.  Absolutely none of that has anything whatsoever to do with Jingdezhen or its porcelain, however.  
> **username_0**: Anyway, at least the last quote was on topic and, yeah, that does seem to be the right form according to Needham & co. If you wanted to edit your answer to remove the salt bits and focus on that, I'll change my vote for one.  

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