<p>It's just the pinyin of a dialect for 大學.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-01-23T16:11:20.147Z
If you read the comments, you'll see that that's pretty unlikely.
Stumpy Joe Pete
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-01-24T07:08:28.690Z
@StumpyJoePete It's a romanization/pinyin of *ancient* Chinese, possibly some regional dialect.
phoeagon
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-01-24T16:24:09.630Z
@phoeagon If by "ancient dialect", you mean "probably court Mandarin, probably quite modern", then yes. The transcription was given in a modern book, using translation resources that can't be more than a few hundred years old (and furthermore, are definitely based on court Mandarin of some type).
Stumpy Joe Pete
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-01-23T15:26:27.500Z
2014-01-23T15:26:27.500Z
Mike Manilone
<p>It's Mandarin transliteration by Portuguese Jesuit Fr. Inácio da Costa (17th century).</p>

<p>Partial text:</p>

<p>“大学之道，在明明德，在亲民，在止于至善”</p>

<p>Ta hio chi dao, cai min min te, cai cin min, cai chi yu chi xen</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-01-28T23:55:00.213Z
Can you link some sources? This seems like the right answer!
Stumpy Joe Pete
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-01-29T00:18:11.963Z
PDF alert! http://www.sinologybeijing.net/file/2013/5/3/21/59/OQNIkoae9KEv.pdf
amateur
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-01-29T00:19:39.267Z
Prospero Intorcetta (殷铎泽) and Inácio da Costa (郭纳爵). You can find the first guy in Wikipedia.
amateur
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-01-29T00:23:39.130Z
Another PDF http://www.cuhk.edu.hk/ics/journal/articles/v49p413.pdf
amateur
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-01-28T23:19:36.810Z
2014-01-29T00:22:33.423Z
2014-01-29T00:22:33.423Z
amateur
<p>In many books about Confucius' Analects, 大學 is transliterated as Ta-Hio.</p>

<p>Why is this? 大學 is <code>dàxué</code> in Pinyin, <code>da hsüeh</code> in Wade-Giles, <code>da sywe</code> in Yale, and <code>daai hok</code> in Cantonese, so where does this transliteration come from?</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2013-10-07T17:51:28.297Z
Legge transcription?
user58955
CC BY-SA 3.0
2013-10-07T18:29:39.687Z
Based on the transcription alone, my guess is that it's from a northern dialect (due to the absence of the final `-k` in 學). The initial `h-` in 學 indicates that it's either from a time before the palatalization of Mandarin initial consonants (roughly 200-400 years ago, `hi-` and `hü-` became modern Mandarin `xi-` and `xu-`), or from a dialect that wasn't affected by palatalization (with which I'm not familiar). However, a Google search for "Ta Hio" seems to result in many citations of Ezra Pound, who is a relatively modern author. I don't know whether the term predates Pound though.
Claw
CC BY-SA 3.0
2013-10-07T20:43:29.613Z
@user58955 [Legge appears to have transliterated it as `Ta Hëŏ`](http://archive.org/stream/chineseclassics02legggoog#page/n22/mode/2up), which is close.
Claw
CC BY-SA 3.0
2013-10-07T20:44:57.110Z
Could be court mandarin or the contemporary standard pronunciation... The mandarin spoken in the Qing court experienced less palatalization despite the ongoing process in vernacular Beijing accent, that's why 北京 and 南京 were called Peking and Nanking, and 福建 was transcribed as Fukien. Not sure if h->x happened in the court pronunciation though.
user58955
CC BY-SA 3.0
2013-10-07T20:48:27.987Z
@Claw Great source, thanks. Now we can see that his transcription systematically distinguishes h- and s- for today's x-, such as Heaou King for 孝经 and Heen Yang for 咸阳
user58955
CC BY-SA 3.0
2013-10-08T16:17:48.180Z
@user58955 and Claw What (and when) was the Legge transcription based on? Beijing court mandarin? Nanjing court mandarin? That's totally answer material you guys have got!
Stumpy Joe Pete
CC BY-SA 3.0
2013-10-08T19:33:55.183Z
I have no proof, but my speculation is Beijing court mandarin. Nanking mandarin kept 入声, so I don't think this is Nanking mandarin.
user58955
CC BY-SA 3.0
2013-10-09T18:57:26.540Z
@StumpyJoePete I was considering writing up what we have here as an answer, wanted to research a few more pieces before doing so. One missing link is how modern Mandarin ended up with `xué` as the pronunciation for 學. From what I've been able to find so far, the expected pronunciation should be `xiao`, which would also match the expected evolution of "hio", and indeed I have found some sources indicating that `xiáo` is an alternative pronunciation for 學. This may be related to the fact that the etymologically-related word 覺 has two readings: `jué` and `jiào`.
Claw
CC BY-SA 3.0
2013-10-09T19:23:31.503Z
@Claw (Using Baxter's Middle Chinese notation) It seems lots of [jqx]ue and [jqx]iao words started with -æwk endings in MC. Baxter doesn't make any notes that one is regular or irregular though, so I expect it's a 白/文 distinction. [This info + chart](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literary_and_colloquial_readings_of_Chinese_characters#Mandarin) implies that -iao is regular Mandarin and -ue is literary (Beijingified Nanjing chinese?). Perhaps xiao~hio was the normal pronunciation in Beijing a long time ago?
Stumpy Joe Pete
CC BY-SA 3.0
2013-10-10T16:32:11.833Z
Thank you Claw for the Legge's link, but on reading the same Legge's book, perhaps, in another edition, I read there «Tâ Hsio», not «Ta Hëŏ.»
On the other hand I know that 大學 on the EFEO transliteration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EFEO_Chinese_transcription) is «Ta Hiue», which is also close to «Ta-Hio.»
Luo Kaisa
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-01-23T17:38:23.550Z
@Claw xiáo is 中原官話, while xué is the Beijing 文讀.
Mike Manilone
<pinyin><transliteration>
About Confucius' Ta-Hio
# About Confucius' Ta-Hio

(Asked by: username_0 on 2013-10-07)

In many books about Confucius' Analects, 大學 is transliterated as Ta-Hio.

Why is this? 大學 is `dàxué` in Pinyin, `da hsüeh` in Wade-Giles, `da sywe` in Yale, and `daai hok` in Cantonese, so where does this transliteration come from?

**Tags:** pinyin, transliteration

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: Legge transcription?  
> **username_2**: Based on the transcription alone, my guess is that it's from a northern dialect (due to the absence of the final `-k` in 學). The initial `h-` in 學 indicates that it's either from a time before the palatalization of Mandarin initial consonants (roughly 200-400 years ago, `hi-` and `hü-` became modern Mandarin `xi-` and `xu-`), or from a dialect that wasn't affected by palatalization (with which I'm not familiar). However, a Google search for "Ta Hio" seems to result in many citations of Ezra Pound, who is a relatively modern author. I don't know whether the term predates Pound though.  
> **username_2**: @username_1 [Legge appears to have transliterated it as `Ta Hëŏ`](http://archive.org/stream/chineseclassics02legggoog#page/n22/mode/2up), which is close.  
> **username_1**: Could be court mandarin or the contemporary standard pronunciation... The mandarin spoken in the Qing court experienced less palatalization despite the ongoing process in vernacular Beijing accent, that's why 北京 and 南京 were called Peking and Nanking, and 福建 was transcribed as Fukien. Not sure if h->x happened in the court pronunciation though.  
> **username_1**: @username_2 Great source, thanks. Now we can see that his transcription systematically distinguishes h- and s- for today's x-, such as Heaou King for 孝经 and Heen Yang for 咸阳  
> **username_3**: @username_1 and username_2 What (and when) was the Legge transcription based on? Beijing court mandarin? Nanjing court mandarin? That's totally answer material you guys have got!  
> **username_1**: I have no proof, but my speculation is Beijing court mandarin. Nanking mandarin kept 入声, so I don't think this is Nanking mandarin.  
> **username_2**: @StumpyJoePete I was considering writing up what we have here as an answer, wanted to research a few more pieces before doing so. One missing link is how modern Mandarin ended up with `xué` as the pronunciation for 學. From what I've been able to find so far, the expected pronunciation should be `xiao`, which would also match the expected evolution of "hio", and indeed I have found some sources indicating that `xiáo` is an alternative pronunciation for 學. This may be related to the fact that the etymologically-related word 覺 has two readings: `jué` and `jiào`.  
> **username_3**: @username_2 (Using Baxter's Middle Chinese notation) It seems lots of [jqx]ue and [jqx]iao words started with -æwk endings in MC. Baxter doesn't make any notes that one is regular or irregular though, so I expect it's a 白/文 distinction. [This info + chart](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literary_and_colloquial_readings_of_Chinese_characters#Mandarin) implies that -iao is regular Mandarin and -ue is literary (Beijingified Nanjing chinese?). Perhaps xiao~hio was the normal pronunciation in Beijing a long time ago?  
> **username_0**: Thank you username_2 for the Legge's link, but on reading the same Legge's book, perhaps, in another edition, I read there «Tâ Hsio», not «Ta Hëŏ.» On the other hand I know that 大學 on the EFEO transliteration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EFEO_Chinese_transcription) is «Ta Hiue», which is also close to «Ta-Hio.»  
> **username_4**: @username_2 xiáo is 中原官話, while xué is the Beijing 文讀.  

---

## 2 answers

### Answer by username_6 on 2014-01-28. Score: 6 | Accepted answer

It's Mandarin transliteration by Portuguese Jesuit Fr. Inácio da Costa (17th century).

Partial text:

“大学之道，在明明德，在亲民，在止于至善”

Ta hio chi dao, cai min min te, cai cin min, cai chi yu chi xen

> **Comments:**
> **username_3**: Can you link some sources? This seems like the right answer!  
> **username_6**: PDF alert! http://www.sinologybeijing.net/file/2013/5/3/21/59/OQNIkoae9KEv.pdf  
> **username_6**: Prospero Intorcetta (殷铎泽) and Inácio da Costa (郭纳爵). You can find the first guy in Wikipedia.  
> **username_6**: Another PDF http://www.cuhk.edu.hk/ics/journal/articles/v49p413.pdf  

---

### Answer by username_4 on 2014-01-23. Score: -1

It's just the pinyin of a dialect for 大學.

> **Comments:**
> **username_3**: If you read the comments, you'll see that that's pretty unlikely.  
> **username_5**: @StumpyJoePete It's a romanization/pinyin of *ancient* Chinese, possibly some regional dialect.  
> **username_3**: @username_5 If by "ancient dialect", you mean "probably court Mandarin, probably quite modern", then yes. The transcription was given in a modern book, using translation resources that can't be more than a few hundred years old (and furthermore, are definitely based on court Mandarin of some type).  

---

