<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/56B6B.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/56B6B.png" alt="visual etymology" /></a>
<strong>臤</strong> (<em>qiān</em>; to gouge the eyes) (<strong>Zhengzhang OC</strong>: /*kʰaːn/, /*kʰriːn/, or /*kʰins/) depicts a hand (又) gouging out an eye turned sideways (臣), indicating the original meaning <em>&quot;to gouge the eyes&quot;</em>.</p>
<hr />
<p>As for the connection between it's other meanings &quot;hard, firm, solid&quot; (when pronounced <strong>qiān</strong>) and &quot;wise, virtuous&quot; (when pronounced <strong>xián</strong>), I am certainly unsure how those came to be associated with this component, but my guess is that 臤 is likely used as a variant of 堅 (when pronounced <strong>qiān</strong>) and 賢 (when pronounced <strong>xián</strong>). Otherwise though, the meanings &quot;firm, solid; wise&quot; are probably phonetic loan meanings since I can't really think of a connection between &quot;to gouge the eyes&quot; and &quot;firm, solid; wise&quot;.</p>
<hr />
<p><strong>Sources used:</strong></p>
<ul>
<li>Wiktionary</li>
<li>zi.tools</li>
<li>季旭昇 《說文新證》p.223-224</li>
<li>小學堂</li>
<li>漢語多功能字庫</li>
</ul>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-14T18:21:35.213Z
2023-10-16T05:10:27.167Z
2023-10-16T05:10:27.167Z
prismcool
<p>臤 does exist in oracle bone script, so it is not a derivative of another character in that sense and is an &quot;original&quot; chinese character.</p>
<p>However is it not very common in the earliest oracle bone incriptions, with only around six known occurances.  Its seems clear it was just beginning to form.  One translated oracle bone sentence with it has an oracle bone form of  <a href="https://i.sstatic.net/lol2I.jpg" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/lol2I.jpg" alt="enter image description here" /></a></p>
<p>and is considered an early version of</p>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/JBtra.jpg" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/JBtra.jpg" alt="enter image description here" /></a></p>
<p>meaning drag/lead forward (掔 today).  So this can be considered as one of the earliest definitions of this character.</p>
<p>Also use of similar glyphs identified as prototype 臤 had use through warring states period as a version of modern day 堅.  I am guessing that is where your hard and firm are coming from.  So this is also one of its earliest meanings.</p>
<p>When it comes to language, especially super early languages, things are not always lineal A to B and B to C.  It can be B is an alternate of C but then someone uses it for A cause they sound similar and then someone else uses it for D cause it looks similar and then someone else uses it for C only again and then no one uses til five hundred years later someone discovers a new animal and decides to use that character to name it.  You get the idea, language is messy, and we probably can't say exactly what the first meaning was, especially so long ago with so few oracle bones defined.  But with my hobbyist level knowledge I think these two meanings can be identified.</p>
<p>Hope it helps ( ´ ▽ ` )ﾉ</p>
<hr />
<p>References:</p>
<p>甲骨字形庫、金文字形庫、the oracle bone inscriptions from huayuanzhuang east (A. Schwartz, pg. 102)</p>
<hr />
<p>EDIT:  as pointed out these images from the textbook are very pixelated, here are drawing renditions of them that are less pixelated (I could not find better images of the exact ones in the textbook free online)  Leaving the original pixelated ones for the accuracy to source.</p>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/Ojj0d.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/Ojj0d.png" alt="enter image description here" /></a></p>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/Uh6yo.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/Uh6yo.png" alt="enter image description here" /></a></p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-15T12:19:54.900Z
Those images are horribly pixelated – in the second one in particular, it’s virtually impossible to make out anything useful at all. Is it possible to get higher-quality versions? Where did you get them, the book you cite at the end?
Janus Bahs Jacquet
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-15T17:16:09.910Z
@JanusBahsJacquet yes they are from the book hence they are so pixelated when blown up.  I will see of I can find a bigger version of the image so it isn't so pixelated and edit my post (◐‿◑)
zagrycha
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-15T20:07:28.580Z
@JanusBahsJacquet  I wasn't able to find the exact  images in the textbook free online in higher quality.  However I have added two drawings of the glyphs for additional clarity of what they are supposed to be （╹◡╹）
zagrycha
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-14T21:46:11.897Z
2023-10-15T20:06:28.960Z
2023-10-15T20:06:28.960Z
zagrycha
<p>This character  臤 is an obsolete word, so I can't seem to figure out what this character is supposed to mean. To me it seems like an extension of the original 臣 with hand 又 added on to emphasize on the administer/watch on subject meaning of 臣. But some sources I've checked say that 臤 is supposed to mean firm or solid, like the origin of 堅, though I cannot see how is is originally meant for that; while others say it's the origin of 賢, i.e. someone wise to watch over money? Which character did 臤 originally mean?</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-14T21:03:03.467Z
「臤」 is just a phonetic component, no? I think there's a lot of nuances lost in the literature when reading scholarly interpretation of characters. Phrasing like "「臤」，「X」的古文" or "「臤」本讀「X」" just means "the first or earliest occurrences of 「臤」 in <some text> should be interpreted as 「X」 [in that text's particular context]". When you read something but you can't find a paper trail for a glyph explanation, then there is no glyph explanation there; you'll just have to dig somewhere else.
dROOOze
<glyph-origin>
Glyph origin and meaning of 臤
# Glyph origin and meaning of 臤

(Asked by: username_0 on 2023-10-14)

This character 臤 is an obsolete word, so I can't seem to figure out what this character is supposed to mean. To me it seems like an extension of the original 臣 with hand 又 added on to emphasize on the administer/watch on subject meaning of 臣. But some sources I've checked say that 臤 is supposed to mean firm or solid, like the origin of 堅, though I cannot see how is is originally meant for that; while others say it's the origin of 賢, i.e. someone wise to watch over money? Which character did 臤 originally mean?

**Tags:** glyph-origin

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: 「臤」 is just a phonetic component, no? I think there's a lot of nuances lost in the literature when reading scholarly interpretation of characters. Phrasing like "「臤」，「X」的古文" or "「臤」本讀「X」" just means "the first or earliest occurrences of 「臤」 in <some text> should be interpreted as 「X」 [in that text's particular context]". When you read something but you can't find a paper trail for a glyph explanation, then there is no glyph explanation there; you'll just have to dig somewhere else.  

---

## 2 answers

### Answer by username_2 on 2023-10-14. Score: 3 | Accepted answer

[![visual etymology](https://i.sstatic.net/56B6B.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/56B6B.png)
**臤** (*qiān*; to gouge the eyes) (**Zhengzhang OC**: /\*kʰaːn/, /\*kʰriːn/, or /\*kʰins/) depicts a hand (又) gouging out an eye turned sideways (臣), indicating the original meaning *"to gouge the eyes"*.

---

As for the connection between it's other meanings "hard, firm, solid" (when pronounced **qiān**) and "wise, virtuous" (when pronounced **xián**), I am certainly unsure how those came to be associated with this component, but my guess is that 臤 is likely used as a variant of 堅 (when pronounced **qiān**) and 賢 (when pronounced **xián**). Otherwise though, the meanings "firm, solid; wise" are probably phonetic loan meanings since I can't really think of a connection between "to gouge the eyes" and "firm, solid; wise".

---

**Sources used:**

* Wiktionary
* zi.tools
* 季旭昇 《說文新證》p.223-224
* 小學堂
* 漢語多功能字庫


---

### Answer by username_3 on 2023-10-14. Score: 2

臤 does exist in oracle bone script, so it is not a derivative of another character in that sense and is an "original" chinese character.

However is it not very common in the earliest oracle bone incriptions, with only around six known occurances. Its seems clear it was just beginning to form. One translated oracle bone sentence with it has an oracle bone form of [![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/lol2I.jpg)](https://i.sstatic.net/lol2I.jpg)

and is considered an early version of

[![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/JBtra.jpg)](https://i.sstatic.net/JBtra.jpg)

meaning drag/lead forward (掔 today). So this can be considered as one of the earliest definitions of this character.

Also use of similar glyphs identified as prototype 臤 had use through warring states period as a version of modern day 堅. I am guessing that is where your hard and firm are coming from. So this is also one of its earliest meanings.

When it comes to language, especially super early languages, things are not always lineal A to B and B to C. It can be B is an alternate of C but then someone uses it for A cause they sound similar and then someone else uses it for D cause it looks similar and then someone else uses it for C only again and then no one uses til five hundred years later someone discovers a new animal and decides to use that character to name it. You get the idea, language is messy, and we probably can't say exactly what the first meaning was, especially so long ago with so few oracle bones defined. But with my hobbyist level knowledge I think these two meanings can be identified.

Hope it helps ( ´ ▽ ` )ﾉ

---

References:

甲骨字形庫、金文字形庫、the oracle bone inscriptions from huayuanzhuang east (A. Schwartz, pg. 102)

---

EDIT: as pointed out these images from the textbook are very pixelated, here are drawing renditions of them that are less pixelated (I could not find better images of the exact ones in the textbook free online) Leaving the original pixelated ones for the accuracy to source.

[![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/Ojj0d.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/Ojj0d.png)

[![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/Uh6yo.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/Uh6yo.png)

> **Comments:**
> **username_4**: Those images are horribly pixelated – in the second one in particular, it’s virtually impossible to make out anything useful at all. Is it possible to get higher-quality versions? Where did you get them, the book you cite at the end?  
> **username_3**: @JanusBahsJacquet yes they are from the book hence they are so pixelated when blown up.  I will see of I can find a bigger version of the image so it isn't so pixelated and edit my post (◐‿◑)  
> **username_3**: @JanusBahsJacquet  I wasn't able to find the exact  images in the textbook free online in higher quality.  However I have added two drawings of the glyphs for additional clarity of what they are supposed to be （╹◡╹）  

---

