<p>I think you can translate <strong>就</strong> as &quot;<strong>and</strong>&quot; or &quot;<strong>and (then)</strong>&quot; in this case:</p>
<ul>
<li>架子倒下了花瓶<strong>就</strong>碎了 - The shelf fell over <strong>and (then)</strong> the vase shattered.</li>
</ul>
<p>The translation of <strong>&quot;如果 A，就 B&quot;</strong> should be <strong>&quot;if A then B&quot;</strong></p>
<ul>
<li><strong>如果</strong>他去我<strong>就</strong>不去 - <strong>If</strong> he goes <strong>then</strong> I won't go.</li>
</ul>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-07-20T22:03:14.660Z
So the sentence merely reports a sequence of two events? It conveys nothing about the vase’s breaking having **resulted from** the shelf’s falling?
Paul Tanenbaum
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-07-20T22:10:35.367Z
The sentence can be structured as "and then, as a result,...", but unnecessary.
r13
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-07-21T00:07:27.690Z
But what I am asking is, (1) is the sentence, as I proposed it, syntactically valid, and (2) does it convey any whiff of causality… that the vase would not have broken if the shelf hadn’t fallen?
Paul Tanenbaum
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-07-21T01:30:03.923Z
Your sentence is acceptable, but I would modify it to "花架子瞬間倒了下來**然後**花瓶就摔碎了". "然後" clearly indicates the sequence of events, and "就" identifies the effect (shattered vase) of the cause (fall of the shelf).
r13
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-07-21T01:50:58.003Z
Note if you want to show the sense of causation clearly, you can say " 花架子瞬間倒了下來, **結果**花瓶就摔碎了".
r13
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-07-20T21:53:22.100Z
2024-07-21T01:30:41.170Z
2024-07-21T01:30:41.170Z
r13
<p>This sentence, 架子倒下了花瓶就碎了, could be puzzling. As @r13 said, there would be two situations to use the word 就, (1) time sequences relationship; and (2) cause and effect relationship. For example,</p>
<p>(1) 我刚刚回到家，就开始下暴雨。- The thunderstorm started right after I got home.</p>
<p>(2) 如果花架子倒了的话，花瓶就会掉到地上摔碎。- If the shelf falls, then the vase would crash into the ground and break.</p>
<p>My understanding of the sentence, 架子倒下了花瓶就碎了, is more of the second case. Because of the shelf's falling, the vase breaks. AS if you are reading a book on Sherlock Holmes.</p>
<p>What if I say, 我刚睡着，就听见花瓶摔碎的声音。</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-07-21T03:24:48.513Z
2024-07-21T03:32:37.057Z
2024-07-21T03:32:37.057Z
PdotWang
<h3>就 is an acceptable translation of &quot;and so&quot;, but it doesn't mean &quot;and so&quot;</h3>
<p>First, I want to make clear that &quot;and&quot; is not used to <em>show</em> causation, but to <em>imply</em> causation. That's a big difference: When you say &quot;The shelf collapsed and the vase shattered&quot; people are inclined to think there is causation, but it could also be that the vase was not even near your shelf when your flat was struck by an earthquake. &quot;And&quot; does so by not denying causation, as words like &quot;then&quot;, &quot;after that&quot;, &quot;afterwards&quot; do. &quot;Then shelf collapsed, (and) then the vase shattered&quot; has its focus much more on temporal order than on causation.</p>
<p>就 in this position can have a lot of meanings, emphasis (&quot;just&quot;), temporal meanings (&quot;immediately then&quot;) to conditional (&quot;if ... then ...&quot;). Without much more context, all of them could be interpreted in your sentence.</p>
<p>(I bought a new vase, but) The shelf collapsed and the vase <em>just</em> broke.<br/>
The shelf collapsed <em>and then</em> the vase was broken.<br/>
(Secure your shelf!) <em>If</em> the shelf collapses, the vase will shatter.</p>
<p>If you just wanted &quot;and&quot;, you could just join without 就: 架子倒下了，花瓶碎了。All in all, 就 would in many contexts convey the meaning of &quot;and so&quot;, without actually meaning &quot;and so&quot;. &quot;And so&quot; itself has no direct Chinese translation, words like 所以 are much close to &quot;so&quot; in meaning.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-07-21T14:47:37.297Z
I completely agree about the vagueness of *and* with regard to causality. It even reminds me of a closely related logical fallacy that goes by the Latin name *post hoc, ergo propter hoc*. The literal translation is “after this, therefore because of this,” and the meaning is that just because *A* preceded *B* doesn’t mean *A* caused *B*.
Paul Tanenbaum
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-07-21T14:48:52.723Z
So would you say that the Wiktionary translation is wrong?
Paul Tanenbaum
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-07-21T23:08:23.007Z
@PaulTanenbaum No, I think the translation is fine. 就 is a perfectly normal way to translate "and so" if you don't really care about making sure the listeners don't misunderstand if there was causality. You can't expect single-word translations to carry nuances across.
Dodezv
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-07-21T14:30:21.537Z
2024-07-21T14:30:21.537Z
Dodezv
<p>Nothing wrong with your sentence:</p>
<p>架子倒下了花瓶就碎了.</p>
<p>Could say it like this:</p>
<p>架子上的花瓶随着倒下的架子摔倒地上碎了.<br />
When the shelf collapsed the vase on it shattered.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>“就”在文言文中具有多种含义。<br />
“就”in classical Chinese has how many meanings?<br />
• 接近、靠近：例如，“金就砺则利”意味着通过接近磨刀石变得锋利。<br />
• approach, get close: For example, “金就砺则利” means by getting close to the grindstone (gold) will become sharp.<br />
• 完成、达到：如“以就懿德”表示达到完美的德行。<br />
• accomplish, achieve: as in  “以就懿德” expresses the achievement of perfect morality.<br />
• 登上：如“于是荆轲就车而去”中的“就车”表示登上马车。<br />
• climb on or over: as in  “于是荆轲就车而去”“就车” means mount the chariot.<br />
• 就职、赴任：如“遂携亲友命驾就观”表示带着亲友前往观看，这里指就职或赴任。<br />
• Take office, assume a post: as in “遂携亲友命驾就观” expresses taking    friends and family to watch travel (somewhere) to assume a position.<br />
• 承受、接受：如“就菊花”表示承受或接受邀请去看菊花。<br />
• bear, acquiesce: as in “就菊花” expresses bear or accept an invitation  to see the crysanthemum.<br />
• 参加、参与：如“指物作诗立就”表示立即创作诗歌，即参加文学创作。<br />
• take part, participate: as in “指物作诗立就” expresses spontaneously create poetry, namely participate in literary creation.<br />
• 效法、择取：如“还来就菊花”中的“就菊花”表示效法或选择去看菊花。
• imitate, choose: as in “还来就菊花” “就菊花”expresses feign or choose to view the chrysanthemum
• 成就、成功：如“功成名就”表示成就功名。<br />
• achievement, success: as in “功成名就”expresses achieve success and recognition.<br />
• 看、观赏：如“遂携亲友命驾就观”中的“就观”表示观看。<br />
• look at, watch: as in “遂携亲友命驾就观”“就观” expresses watch.</p>
<p>这些含义展示了“就”在文言文中的丰富用法和深刻内涵，
These (subtle) meanings of “就”reveal the
rich and profound variations of the word in Classical Chinese<br />
反映了古代汉语的多样性和复杂性。<br />
reflecting the diversity and complexity of Ancient Chinese.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I think “就菊花”is Tang poet's slang for getting drunk!  (孟浩然的《过故人庄》)</p>
<p>就 is a complicated word, hard to get a handle on. I think of 就 as &quot;then&quot; and &quot;then&quot; as &quot;that when&quot;, a point in time:</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-07-21T06:50:56.983Z
2024-07-21T06:50:56.983Z
Pedroski
<p>My take is the use of 就 is largely optional. For example,</p>
<p>架子倒下花瓶碎了</p>
<p>works just as well in Chinese. Perhaps it is even better because the sentence is simpler.</p>
<p>如果 A，就 B can also be simplified to 如果 A，B</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-07-24T01:45:27.673Z
2024-07-24T01:45:27.673Z
fat penguin
<p>Wiktionary gives among <a href="https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/and/translations#Conjunction" rel="noreferrer">its translations for English <em>and</em></a> the word 就 in contexts where <em>and</em> is &quot;used to show causation.'' So does that mean that</p>
<blockquote>
<p>架子倒下了花瓶就碎了</p>
</blockquote>
<p>is  a correct sentence to mean ''The shelf collapsed <strong>and</strong> [so] the vase shattered''?</p>
<p>I hasten to add that the Wiktionary entry for 就 makes no mention of such usage.
(I hate it when Wiktionary's entries are not mutually corroborating.
It makes me suspicious.) I've also done a fair amount of Googling for things like '就 &quot;and&quot; result,'
but found essentially no mention of it.</p>
<p>The hypothesis (that my proposed sentence above is okay) seems reasonable to me given for instance the construction</p>
<blockquote>
<p>如果 <em>A</em>，<strong>就</strong> <em>B</em>.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>(Of course, if my proposed sentence is wrong for some other reason, I'd appreciate learning about that too.)</p>

<translation><word>
Is 就 acceptable (even best) for "and so"?
# Is 就 acceptable (even best) for "and so"?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2024-07-20)

Wiktionary gives among [its translations for English *and*](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/and/translations#Conjunction) the word 就 in contexts where *and* is "used to show causation.'' So does that mean that

> 架子倒下了花瓶就碎了

is a correct sentence to mean ''The shelf collapsed **and** [so] the vase shattered''?

I hasten to add that the Wiktionary entry for 就 makes no mention of such usage.
(I hate it when Wiktionary's entries are not mutually corroborating.
It makes me suspicious.) I've also done a fair amount of Googling for things like '就 "and" result,'
but found essentially no mention of it.

The hypothesis (that my proposed sentence above is okay) seems reasonable to me given for instance the construction

> 如果 *A*，**就** *B*.

(Of course, if my proposed sentence is wrong for some other reason, I'd appreciate learning about that too.)

**Tags:** translation, word


---

## 5 answers

### Answer by username_1 on 2024-07-20. Score: 3

I think you can translate **就** as "**and**" or "**and (then)**" in this case:

* 架子倒下了花瓶**就**碎了 - The shelf fell over **and (then)** the vase shattered.

The translation of **"如果 A，就 B"** should be **"if A then B"**

* **如果**他去我**就**不去 - **If** he goes **then** I won't go.

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: So the sentence merely reports a sequence of two events? It conveys nothing about the vase’s breaking having **resulted from** the shelf’s falling?  
> **username_1**: The sentence can be structured as "and then, as a result,...", but unnecessary.  
> **username_0**: But what I am asking is, (1) is the sentence, as I proposed it, syntactically valid, and (2) does it convey any whiff of causality… that the vase would not have broken if the shelf hadn’t fallen?  
> **username_1**: Your sentence is acceptable, but I would modify it to "花架子瞬間倒了下來**然後**花瓶就摔碎了". "然後" clearly indicates the sequence of events, and "就" identifies the effect (shattered vase) of the cause (fall of the shelf).  
> **username_1**: Note if you want to show the sense of causation clearly, you can say " 花架子瞬間倒了下來, **結果**花瓶就摔碎了".  

---

### Answer by username_2 on 2024-07-21. Score: 1

This sentence, 架子倒下了花瓶就碎了, could be puzzling. As @username_1 said, there would be two situations to use the word 就, (1) time sequences relationship; and (2) cause and effect relationship. For example,

(1) 我刚刚回到家，就开始下暴雨。- The thunderstorm started right after I got home.

(2) 如果花架子倒了的话，花瓶就会掉到地上摔碎。- If the shelf falls, then the vase would crash into the ground and break.

My understanding of the sentence, 架子倒下了花瓶就碎了, is more of the second case. Because of the shelf's falling, the vase breaks. AS if you are reading a book on Sherlock Holmes.

What if I say, 我刚睡着，就听见花瓶摔碎的声音。


---

### Answer by username_3 on 2024-07-21. Score: 0

### 就 is an acceptable translation of "and so", but it doesn't mean "and so"

First, I want to make clear that "and" is not used to *show* causation, but to *imply* causation. That's a big difference: When you say "The shelf collapsed and the vase shattered" people are inclined to think there is causation, but it could also be that the vase was not even near your shelf when your flat was struck by an earthquake. "And" does so by not denying causation, as words like "then", "after that", "afterwards" do. "Then shelf collapsed, (and) then the vase shattered" has its focus much more on temporal order than on causation.

就 in this position can have a lot of meanings, emphasis ("just"), temporal meanings ("immediately then") to conditional ("if ... then ..."). Without much more context, all of them could be interpreted in your sentence.

(I bought a new vase, but) The shelf collapsed and the vase *just* broke.  
The shelf collapsed *and then* the vase was broken.  
(Secure your shelf!) *If* the shelf collapses, the vase will shatter.

If you just wanted "and", you could just join without 就: 架子倒下了，花瓶碎了。All in all, 就 would in many contexts convey the meaning of "and so", without actually meaning "and so". "And so" itself has no direct Chinese translation, words like 所以 are much close to "so" in meaning.

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: I completely agree about the vagueness of *and* with regard to causality. It even reminds me of a closely related logical fallacy that goes by the Latin name *post hoc, ergo propter hoc*. The literal translation is “after this, therefore because of this,” and the meaning is that just because *A* preceded *B* doesn’t mean *A* caused *B*.  
> **username_0**: So would you say that the Wiktionary translation is wrong?  
> **username_3**: @PaulTanenbaum No, I think the translation is fine. 就 is a perfectly normal way to translate "and so" if you don't really care about making sure the listeners don't misunderstand if there was causality. You can't expect single-word translations to carry nuances across.  

---

### Answer by username_4 on 2024-07-21. Score: 0

Nothing wrong with your sentence:

架子倒下了花瓶就碎了.

Could say it like this:

架子上的花瓶随着倒下的架子摔倒地上碎了.  
When the shelf collapsed the vase on it shattered.

> “就”在文言文中具有多种含义。  
> “就”in classical Chinese has how many meanings?  
> • 接近、靠近：例如，“金就砺则利”意味着通过接近磨刀石变得锋利。  
> • approach, get close: For example, “金就砺则利” means by getting close to the grindstone (gold) will become sharp.  
> • 完成、达到：如“以就懿德”表示达到完美的德行。  
> • accomplish, achieve: as in “以就懿德” expresses the achievement of perfect morality.  
> • 登上：如“于是荆轲就车而去”中的“就车”表示登上马车。  
> • climb on or over: as in “于是荆轲就车而去”“就车” means mount the chariot.  
> • 就职、赴任：如“遂携亲友命驾就观”表示带着亲友前往观看，这里指就职或赴任。  
> • Take office, assume a post: as in “遂携亲友命驾就观” expresses taking friends and family to watch travel (somewhere) to assume a position.  
> • 承受、接受：如“就菊花”表示承受或接受邀请去看菊花。  
> • bear, acquiesce: as in “就菊花” expresses bear or accept an invitation to see the crysanthemum.  
> • 参加、参与：如“指物作诗立就”表示立即创作诗歌，即参加文学创作。  
> • take part, participate: as in “指物作诗立就” expresses spontaneously create poetry, namely participate in literary creation.  
> • 效法、择取：如“还来就菊花”中的“就菊花”表示效法或选择去看菊花。
> • imitate, choose: as in “还来就菊花” “就菊花”expresses feign or choose to view the chrysanthemum
> • 成就、成功：如“功成名就”表示成就功名。  
> • achievement, success: as in “功成名就”expresses achieve success and recognition.  
> • 看、观赏：如“遂携亲友命驾就观”中的“就观”表示观看。  
> • look at, watch: as in “遂携亲友命驾就观”“就观” expresses watch.
>
> 这些含义展示了“就”在文言文中的丰富用法和深刻内涵，
> These (subtle) meanings of “就”reveal the
> rich and profound variations of the word in Classical Chinese  
> 反映了古代汉语的多样性和复杂性。  
> reflecting the diversity and complexity of Ancient Chinese.

I think “就菊花”is Tang poet's slang for getting drunk! (孟浩然的《过故人庄》)

就 is a complicated word, hard to get a handle on. I think of 就 as "then" and "then" as "that when", a point in time:


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### Answer by username_5 on 2024-07-24. Score: 0

My take is the use of 就 is largely optional. For example,

架子倒下花瓶碎了

works just as well in Chinese. Perhaps it is even better because the sentence is simpler.

如果 A，就 B can also be simplified to 如果 A，B


---

