<p>对 implies you have a clearer target, picturing a <em>face to face</em>.</p>
<p>With 向, the target is bit vague, picturing you say something <em><strong>towards</strong></em> someone.</p>
<p>So, 傷痛向誰說 sounds more <em>helpless</em> because there isn't any clue for you to find anyone to speak about the pain.  傷痛对誰說 sounds that you can not find a target to talk with about the pain, implying who should be responsible for listening to me.</p>
<p>With all that said, 傷痛說向誰 can be valid but meaning <em><strong>literally</strong></em> as if saying <em>I have pains.  Towards whom should I shoot them</em>. 傷痛說对誰 is simply wrong. It's because 向 can be used as the <em>complement</em> of the verb 说, whilst 对 can not be a complement of a verb.  E. g.  we say 打向他，撞向他, but not 打对他，撞对他.</p>
<p>Using topic-comment theory, topic: 傷痛.  comment: 向誰說/說向誰.  This might not be relevant to your issue(distinction between 对 and 向).  It's just an FYI.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-08-19T00:47:21.530Z
2020-08-19T00:53:54.647Z
2020-08-19T00:53:54.647Z
dan
<p>'誰' in &quot;誰說傷痛?&quot; is equal to the pronoun &quot;who&quot; in English.</p>
<p>誰 is the <strong>S</strong>ubject, 說 is the <strong>V</strong>erb and 傷痛 is the <strong>O</strong>bject. (It is an <strong>SVO</strong> sentence)</p>
<p>~</p>
<p>'誰' in &quot;傷痛向誰說?&quot; is part of a complement introduced by 向, so it can be translated as the pronoun &quot;whom&quot; in English.</p>
<p>The sentence follows the [<strong>topic</strong> + <strong>comment</strong>] structure: 傷痛 is the <strong>topic</strong>,  向誰說 is the <strong>comment</strong>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Topic: 傷痛 = pain</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p>Comment: 向誰說 = whom I should say to</p>
</blockquote>
<p>The comment itself is an SVO sentence with the subject omitted</p>
<p>You can have a different comment, e.g. 傷痛(topic) + 我受不了 (comment)</p>
<blockquote>
<p><em>In <code> 向谁说</code>, does <code>向</code> play the same role / have the same meaning as <code>对</code>?</em></p>
</blockquote>
<p>說傷痛 = say pain</p>
<p>[SVO] (向谁)说傷痛 = (to whom) I say pain?</p>
<p>[topic + comment] - 傷痛(向谁)说 = pain, I say (to whom)?</p>
<p>向 sounds more proactive and 对 sounds more interactive</p>
<blockquote>
<p><em>And is 傷痛說向誰 wrong?</em></p>
</blockquote>
<p>傷痛說向誰 is wrong. It is an SVO sentence, the object 傷痛 should not be placed before the verb 說</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-08-18T16:39:25.020Z
@blackgreen You mean in  '向公司投訴', and '向獵物射擊',  公司 and 獵物 are not the objects?
Tang Ho
CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-08-18T17:01:00.597Z
@blackgreen how is it after the edit?
Tang Ho
CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-08-18T17:12:10.650Z
@blackgreen I stated 傷痛 as the object in SVO form, I should have thought of it is still the object in  [comment + topic] form --> 傷痛, (向谁)说(傷痛)?
Tang Ho
CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-08-18T17:13:56.817Z
Yes, the topic-comment structure doesn’t alter the grammatical role of the elements of the sentence. A direct object is still a direct object, an omitted subject is still an omitted subject
blackgreen
CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-08-18T17:50:00.473Z
Regarding your comment on "proactive" (向) versus "interactive" (对), am I understanding the nuances correctly if I think of it this way: 'On a scale of "say at" - "say to" - "speak with", 向A说 covers "say at A" and "say to A", while 对A说 covers "say to A" and "speak with A." ' Thanks :)
2ndQuantized
CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-08-18T18:26:10.783Z
I agree with your assessment.  e.g. 向人推銷 sounds more proactive than  对人推銷
Tang Ho
CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-08-18T22:18:19.273Z
Whatever in between preposition ... verb phrases is the object. That is the point of the structure -- to change word order away from SVO, potentially add emphasis or other connotations while designating the object. From the sound of it, @blackgreen prefers to consider the preposition + noun (向谁) part as a preposition phrase the same way preposition phrases are in English. Falling out of that, prepositional phrase in front of verb in an SVO language is not the object in English linguistics. And in that case there is no object. I think that's forcing English linguistics onto Chinese. (cont next)
Argyll
CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-08-18T22:20:01.257Z
It is less productive than considering Chinese as having special sentence order altering structures because without doing so, the prepositional phrase idea ignores how 谁 is indeed intended as the object the verb 说 acts upon. Plus, prepositional phrase in front of verb does happen in Chinese.
Argyll
CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-08-18T22:39:49.393Z
@Argyll the term "object" in informal (non-academic) discussion, which is the environment most language learners operate in, identifies the direct object. So stating that "*Whatever in between preposition ... verb phrases is the object*" is inaccurate and misleading. Call it *oblique object*, if you must, to avoid ambiguity
blackgreen
CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-08-18T22:45:44.593Z
@blackgreen: I commented in the same thread before this comment because I wrote it before this.. Anyway, I do take back about the statement re preposition ... verb in Chinese. Need more thinking there. But... I am not sure if what you say about "object" meaning exclusively "direct object" is true. How do you classify "you" in "I speak to you"? Is it common that people don't speak of "you" in that case as object?
Argyll
CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-08-19T08:39:19.907Z
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been [moved to chat](https://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/111951/discussion-on-answer-by-tang-ho-in--does--play-the-same-role-have-th).
Tang Ho
CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-08-18T16:02:33.860Z
2020-08-18T17:23:56.180Z
2020-08-18T17:23:56.180Z
Tang Ho
<p>As for the question in your title, yes, they are the same. Sometimes it's just a fancy way to express the same thing. 向 is a little bit fancier, or poetic, while 对 is widely used in plain texts or conversations. In some dialects 跟 can also be used, they are all the same.</p>
<p>It's like when you write a poem in English, you just need a different word than daily conversations. And 傷痛向誰說 feels like a sentence from a song's lyrics or modern poem, because 傷痛 is rarely used in daily conversations.</p>
<p>As for 傷痛說向誰, @dan's answer is pretty clear. Just to add a little bit, 傷痛說向誰 is valid and meaningful in poetics, and is even more 'poetic' then 傷痛向誰說.
For example, the following ancient poem use similar grammar:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>馨香唯有蝶先知 漫吐芳心说向谁</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Many times poems and song lyrics simply don't follow the 'daily' grammar strictly because they need to rhyme， simple as that. Also, the ancient Chinese had a different 'convention' than the current one, and in poems it's pretty common to mix them. Some of the 'ancient' grammar are still in use but only in limited circumstances. Things can get even more complicated regarding dialects, They vary so much that you can call them different languages.</p>
<p>If you listen to Chinese pop songs you'll find some lyrics that look really weird in grammar, sometimes the artists do it deliberately to express an idea or a feeling, most of the time they just mess with the order of the words to rhyme. And occasionally, if the writer is sub-par, they just write meaningless sentences and call it art. It's subtle, but keep reading and writing and you'll feel the difference.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-08-19T02:28:20.677Z
2020-08-19T02:45:16.237Z
2020-08-19T02:45:16.237Z
X. Sun
<p>I've read an article and found this sentence <code>傷痛向誰說</code> where <code>說</code> is right after an object.</p>
<p>For example: 我对你说, due to <code>对</code>, the word <code>说</code> needs to be right after the object <code>你</code>.</p>
<p>Is it due to <code>向</code> that <code>說</code> needs to be right after <code>誰</code>? e.g. <code>[向 + object] + verb</code> is a must?</p>
<p>And is <code>傷痛說向誰</code> wrong?</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-08-19T08:43:07.520Z
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been [moved to chat](https://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/111952/discussion-on-question-by-o-connor-in--does--play-the-same-role-have).
Tang Ho
<sentence-structure>
In ` 向谁说`, does `向` play the same role / have the same meaning as `对`?
# In ` 向谁说`, does `向` play the same role / have the same meaning as `对`?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2020-08-18)

I've read an article and found this sentence `傷痛向誰說` where `說` is right after an object.

For example: 我对你说, due to `对`, the word `说` needs to be right after the object `你`.

Is it due to `向` that `說` needs to be right after `誰`? e.g. `[向 + object] + verb` is a must?

And is `傷痛說向誰` wrong?

**Tags:** sentence-structure

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been [moved to chat](https://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/111952/discussion-on-question-by-o-connor-in--does--play-the-same-role-have).  

---

## 3 answers

### Answer by username_2 on 2020-08-19. Score: 3 | Accepted answer

对 implies you have a clearer target, picturing a *face to face*.

With 向, the target is bit vague, picturing you say something ***towards*** someone.

So, 傷痛向誰說 sounds more *helpless* because there isn't any clue for you to find anyone to speak about the pain. 傷痛对誰說 sounds that you can not find a target to talk with about the pain, implying who should be responsible for listening to me.

With all that said, 傷痛說向誰 can be valid but meaning ***literally*** as if saying *I have pains. Towards whom should I shoot them*. 傷痛說对誰 is simply wrong. It's because 向 can be used as the *complement* of the verb 说, whilst 对 can not be a complement of a verb. E. g. we say 打向他，撞向他, but not 打对他，撞对他.

Using topic-comment theory, topic: 傷痛. comment: 向誰說/說向誰. This might not be relevant to your issue(distinction between 对 and 向). It's just an FYI.


---

### Answer by username_1 on 2020-08-18. Score: 4

'誰' in "誰說傷痛?" is equal to the pronoun "who" in English.

誰 is the **S**ubject, 說 is the **V**erb and 傷痛 is the **O**bject. (It is an **SVO** sentence)

~

'誰' in "傷痛向誰說?" is part of a complement introduced by 向, so it can be translated as the pronoun "whom" in English.

The sentence follows the [**topic** + **comment**] structure: 傷痛 is the **topic**, 向誰說 is the **comment**:

> Topic: 傷痛 = pain

> Comment: 向誰說 = whom I should say to

The comment itself is an SVO sentence with the subject omitted

You can have a different comment, e.g. 傷痛(topic) + 我受不了 (comment)

> *In  `向谁说`, does `向` play the same role / have the same meaning as `对`?*

說傷痛 = say pain

[SVO] (向谁)说傷痛 = (to whom) I say pain?

[topic + comment] - 傷痛(向谁)说 = pain, I say (to whom)?

向 sounds more proactive and 对 sounds more interactive

> *And is 傷痛說向誰 wrong?*

傷痛說向誰 is wrong. It is an SVO sentence, the object 傷痛 should not be placed before the verb 說

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: @username_3 You mean in  '向公司投訴', and '向獵物射擊',  公司 and 獵物 are not the objects?  
> **username_1**: @username_3 how is it after the edit?  
> **username_1**: @username_3 I stated 傷痛 as the object in SVO form, I should have thought of it is still the object in  [comment + topic] form --> 傷痛, (向谁)说(傷痛)?  
> **username_3**: Yes, the topic-comment structure doesn’t alter the grammatical role of the elements of the sentence. A direct object is still a direct object, an omitted subject is still an omitted subject  
> **username_4**: Regarding your comment on "proactive" (向) versus "interactive" (对), am I understanding the nuances correctly if I think of it this way: 'On a scale of "say at" - "say to" - "speak with", 向A说 covers "say at A" and "say to A", while 对A说 covers "say to A" and "speak with A." ' Thanks :)  
> **username_1**: I agree with your assessment.  e.g. 向人推銷 sounds more proactive than  对人推銷  
> **username_5**: Whatever in between preposition ... verb phrases is the object. That is the point of the structure -- to change word order away from SVO, potentially add emphasis or other connotations while designating the object. From the sound of it, @username_3 prefers to consider the preposition + noun (向谁) part as a preposition phrase the same way preposition phrases are in English. Falling out of that, prepositional phrase in front of verb in an SVO language is not the object in English linguistics. And in that case there is no object. I think that's forcing English linguistics onto Chinese. (cont next)  
> **username_5**: It is less productive than considering Chinese as having special sentence order altering structures because without doing so, the prepositional phrase idea ignores how 谁 is indeed intended as the object the verb 说 acts upon. Plus, prepositional phrase in front of verb does happen in Chinese.  
> **username_3**: @username_5 the term "object" in informal (non-academic) discussion, which is the environment most language learners operate in, identifies the direct object. So stating that "*Whatever in between preposition ... verb phrases is the object*" is inaccurate and misleading. Call it *oblique object*, if you must, to avoid ambiguity  
> **username_5**: @username_3: I commented in the same thread before this comment because I wrote it before this.. Anyway, I do take back about the statement re preposition ... verb in Chinese. Need more thinking there. But... I am not sure if what you say about "object" meaning exclusively "direct object" is true. How do you classify "you" in "I speak to you"? Is it common that people don't speak of "you" in that case as object?  
> **username_1**: Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been [moved to chat](https://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/111951/discussion-on-answer-by-tang-ho-in--does--play-the-same-role-have-th).  

---

### Answer by username_6 on 2020-08-19. Score: 2

As for the question in your title, yes, they are the same. Sometimes it's just a fancy way to express the same thing. 向 is a little bit fancier, or poetic, while 对 is widely used in plain texts or conversations. In some dialects 跟 can also be used, they are all the same.

It's like when you write a poem in English, you just need a different word than daily conversations. And 傷痛向誰說 feels like a sentence from a song's lyrics or modern poem, because 傷痛 is rarely used in daily conversations.

As for 傷痛說向誰, @username_2's answer is pretty clear. Just to add a little bit, 傷痛說向誰 is valid and meaningful in poetics, and is even more 'poetic' then 傷痛向誰說.
For example, the following ancient poem use similar grammar:

> 馨香唯有蝶先知 漫吐芳心说向谁

Many times poems and song lyrics simply don't follow the 'daily' grammar strictly because they need to rhyme， simple as that. Also, the ancient Chinese had a different 'convention' than the current one, and in poems it's pretty common to mix them. Some of the 'ancient' grammar are still in use but only in limited circumstances. Things can get even more complicated regarding dialects, They vary so much that you can call them different languages.

If you listen to Chinese pop songs you'll find some lyrics that look really weird in grammar, sometimes the artists do it deliberately to express an idea or a feeling, most of the time they just mess with the order of the words to rhyme. And occasionally, if the writer is sub-par, they just write meaningless sentences and call it art. It's subtle, but keep reading and writing and you'll feel the difference.


---

