<p>You say:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Go to start menu, and...</p>
</blockquote>
<p>One thing I've noticed is that using the Microsoft Start menu is a bit odd. There is the Search box, but I always switch that off because it takes up space and isn't needed. You can and should literally click the icon then just start typing 'excel' or whatever. Yes, even though it looks like there is no place to type. This makes people's eyes cross and usually they refuse to do it.</p>
<p>I basically don't use desktop shortcuts / icons anymore, I just type. I don't use menus or try to find anything in the system screens. So learning to type letters on nothing is unintuitive, but it's the Way.</p>
<p>Similarly I gave up keeping bookmarks / favorites in the browser. I type a few letters and browser history shows it. In my workplace directory, 3 letters of someone's last name finds them.</p>
<p>I gave in to the Microsoft default folder names long ago. I still don't like the Library concept though.</p>
<p>So I just wonder if you lost your students at hello, er... Start?</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-19T23:55:24.123Z
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been [moved to chat](https://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/134285/discussion-on-answer-by-scott-rowe-problems-with-students-stuck-in-web-browser-a).
Ben I.
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-17T10:44:49.613Z
2022-02-17T10:44:49.613Z
Scott Rowe
<p>I think your students may have <a href="https://www.npr.org/2019/10/31/774838891/its-a-smartphone-life-more-than-half-of-u-s-children-now-have-one" rel="noreferrer">more experience</a> with <em>smartphones</em> than with computers. So if you can explain it in cell phone terms, it may make more sense to them. The Start Menu is like the app drawer. The desktop is like the home screen. The taskbar is like swapping apps. Win+D is a shortcut to get to the desktop, like tapping the Home icon/dot/button on a phone.</p>
<p>And if you can reduce steps, that will help as well. I suggest a permanent icon on the desktop, so this can be two steps: 1) Use Win+D to get to the Desktop (home screen). 2) Double click on the icon to launch the application.</p>
<p>This doesn't solve the long term issues of having no idea how computers work, but exposure over time will at least help with that.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-17T17:51:43.983Z
2022-02-17T17:51:43.983Z
user3067860
<p>As for your purpose - teaching to write programs, I would say, switch to a web based dev environment like <a href="https://replit.com/" rel="nofollow noreferrer">repl.it</a>.  This will allow your students to start making programs and learning your curriculum.  This should solve the immediate issue at hand.</p>
<p>On to the &quot;browser mindset,&quot; and a long term fix, it sounds like there has been a major missing piece of instruction leading up your class.  I would guess there was no instruction on how to use a general purpose computer, (or at the very least, how to use Windows.)  Coving this topic would allow the children to understand that computers are used for more than just accessing the internet to consume content - something a few adults I know need help with.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-24T14:52:41.067Z
2022-02-24T14:52:41.067Z
AllenKll
<blockquote>
<p>When I try to teach programming on the computer: using programs that are on the local computer. They find it difficult.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Then don't! I mean, knowing how to use programs on the local computer is certainly worthwhile, but if you're teaching them programming and they're &quot;stuck&quot; in a web browser, teach them how to code within a web browser.</p>
<p>I find <a href="http://gitpod.io" rel="nofollow noreferrer">http://gitpod.io</a> (which is available for free) immensely useful (don't worry, you don't actually need to know git to get started with it). It provides the student, within a few seconds, with a pre-built coding environment (which you, as the teacher, can customize using <code>.gitpod.yml</code>), without making any assumptions about what kind of computer they have or what software is installed on it, other than &quot;a reasonably modern browser&quot;. It's a wonderful teaching tool - it allows students to spend less time on getting their environment set up just right (what if a subset of your students use a mac? linux? a chromebook? an older version of Windows? a Windows computer set up with an alternative shell, meaning there is no start menu?) and drops them right into, effectively, VS Code set up just-as-the-teacher-intended.</p>
<p>You can have completely separate classes on &quot;how to use a local computer&quot;, which, amusingly, is also best accomplished using a virtual environment in the browser, to neutralize the differences between their computers.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-24T12:24:19.827Z
I had a look. It looks like every student will have to sign up to github (or other service). This will lead to safeguarding problems. Am I correct about this, or is it possible to easily use in anonymously?
ctrl-alt-delor
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-24T16:09:33.713Z
Standard gitpod does require signing into a service. If you're willing to host a service for your students, you can use this: https://www.gitpod.io/blog/openvscode-server-launch - it doesn't require any authentication whatsoever.
lutzky
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-24T11:09:06.397Z
2022-02-24T11:09:06.397Z
lutzky
<p>The server and client world are getting ever more indistinguishable. Some programming languages pull dynamically libraries from the web during build. At the tender age of your students maybe not bother them with distinctions that are pretty vague. Meaning: let them use online programming tools.</p>
<p>I know, not quite the answer you wanted.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-18T11:39:13.240Z
I was reading about log4j, which was *designed* to be able to yank and run arbitrary remote code automatically gotten from anywhere else on the web, with no validation, and invoke it from deep within a supposedly secure area, perhaps not even directly accessible from the internet at large. You can't make this stuff up! I conclude that it was designed that way deliberately as a back door to be exploited later. There is no other good explanation. Strange world.
Scott Rowe
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-20T01:01:49.820Z
@Evi1M4chine Perhaps we should have a procedure to keep that from happening? Some kind of company, that would control what went in to the software, and could be held responsible for it?
Scott Rowe
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-16T23:48:29.743Z
2022-02-16T23:48:29.743Z
Victor Eijkhout
<p>Depending on your classroom hardware, the most straightforward way it to get them coding in VS Code on a small Unity project.</p>
<p>This demonstrates two things:</p>
<ul>
<li>File structure of a project</li>
<li>Command line to build/debug the project</li>
</ul>
<p>You could use &quot;Hello World&quot; from the command line, but Unity will hook them b/c it's very visual and a game engine they recognize.</p>
<p>Check out <a href="http://coffeebreakcodes.com/sample-projects-unity/" rel="nofollow noreferrer">http://coffeebreakcodes.com/sample-projects-unity/</a></p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-23T21:56:15.643Z
I've never seen anyone use a CLI to build a unity project, especially not beginners. Usually, we just use the "play" button to get things going in the editor, and use namespaces to make sure it doesn't take too long to compile.
Ben I.
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-23T21:56:49.430Z
Also, welcome to cseducators!  It's a nice first post, and I hope we hear more from you!
Ben I.
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-23T13:28:14.590Z
2022-02-23T13:28:14.590Z
Brian Austin
<p>One has to see the current state of the art; eg <a href="https://consumer.huawei.com/sa-en/offer/huawei-super-device" rel="nofollow noreferrer">super device</a>, which are connected or even foldable desktops. The actual difference is the file-system being used; unless they would understand the difference in between eg. a local <code>file://</code> or <code>content://</code> URI and a remote <code>https://</code> URI, this all might be difficult to understand. A SSD and a local HTTP server could be used to demonstrate the difference. Then one can also show removal USB storage, etc. Offline mode also demonstrates the difference. One may have to teach the very basics, in terms of a) physical hardware and b) remote services. The behavior might stem from being used to eg. a Chromebook. See <a href="https://www.oreilly.com/content/3-strategies-to-change-user-behavior/" rel="nofollow noreferrer">3 strategies to change user behavior</a>. And the idea is not even completely wrong; <a href="https://aws.amazon.com/cloud9" rel="nofollow noreferrer">AWS Cloud9</a> might be an option. Or how about running a ChromeOS device in an Android emulator, just to show what it is?</p>
<p>Directly letting them compare a local IDE with a cloud IDE would show the possibilities and limitations of each of the environments. I mean, one just would have to develop a teaching program which both kinds of students can apply; eg. instead of saying &quot;open your local shell prompt&quot; this would be &quot;open your <code>gcloud ssh</code> shell prompt&quot; (in a browser window). Alike this, nobody would have to feel &quot;wrong&quot; for simply not knowing it any better and they could compare. Then one can start teasing them, eg. with commands that may work locally but not remotely, or the other way around (always two students, who can compare).</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-20T02:03:05.980Z
Meanwhile there's two ways of doing things (computing) and neither is necessarily wrong, they're just different - and assuming they may have eg. the same Linux distribution locally and remote, this should be comparable.
Martin Zeitler
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-19T19:58:41.893Z
2022-02-20T02:00:46.390Z
2022-02-20T02:00:46.390Z
Martin Zeitler
<p>A comment to my other Answer suggested that this would be useful information, but I felt it was tangential to that answer so here is another one.</p>
<p>Consider that voice is becoming the default way to tell a computing device something, and for it to respond. Office 365 has Dictation built in, and it works well. Even children can now accidentally get their invisible pal to order things.</p>
<p>In this situation, how would anyone know what is on their device, and why would they care? Perhaps we need to advance teaching beyond what we do now, to what people will be doing very soon?</p>
<p>Humans have used primarily voice to interact with other beings since long before Cuneiform became the killer app 5000 years ago. It seems vastly the easiest way, and can be used while doing other things.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-17T19:04:14.593Z
No dictation was used in the making of this Answer.
Scott Rowe
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-17T23:12:38.253Z
I very much doubt that typing will disappear. Sure maybe some people will interact with computers only through voice commands, just as some people only use GUIs. But the command line is still alive and well and will always be preferred by power users for some tasks due to its expressiveness and precision. Also, good typists can type faster than they can speak. Some years ago people argued that typing commands would be completely replaced by GUIs, yet recently I've seen a reverse trend: many people have moved from plotting data with GUI tools to plotting with Python packages.
WaterMolecule
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-18T11:15:35.350Z
@WaterMolecule I can still: ride a horse, drive a manual (less common in the US), sail a boat, use a darkroom and entirely manual camera, fix old radios, etc... But these things are in schools less and less, and in homes rarer still. If people don't need them, they have no concept, like the many people under 20 who have no idea that files and folders exist. Google it. Where do we start then, if college students can't locate their work, let alone turn it in? A Bridge Too Far.
Scott Rowe
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-18T15:12:21.420Z
@ScottRowe I thought about this more and changed my mind. I can see keyboards getting mostly replaced by another technology. +1
WaterMolecule
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-18T16:52:25.867Z
Because it turns out that natural language is hard and understanding (any kind of understanding) is impossible for computers as we know them (at best a computer can fake understanding, but there's simply not one ounce of understanding happening there). Otherwise there would already be software to turn a business analyst's design into more software without actual programmers being needed--but instead, we can (notoriously) not even turn a design into perfect software even with a whole team of developers, actually the BA can't even create a perfect design from a customer description!
user3067860
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-18T17:19:40.757Z
@user3067860 Right, understanding is hard, but you can get surprisingly far with good guessing, just ask a dog. They often know what we are feeling or are about to do before we realize it ourselves! I think that computers could write much better software than humans, but they should leave art, music and comedy to us. If it can be automated though it will.
Scott Rowe
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-18T17:28:18.237Z
One thing I often do is what I call "Car Talk". That's when I explain to my car when it beeps at me for straying past the lane markers or getting too close to that car ahead that is turning, *why* I did that. I know it isn't listening now, but soon it will, and will tell its billion buddies. Then things are going to change fast. "*If I'd asked people what they* wanted, *they would have said, 'smarter cars'*"
Scott Rowe
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-18T18:10:54.027Z
@ScottRowe You're reminding me of the professor who assigned "computer vision" as a summer project to a grad student in the 1960s. If a computer replaces my job anytime in my lifetime I will be extremely happy because 1) there will have been huge advances to medical technology in order to extend my lifespan that long, 2) I will be enjoying learning about it on Mars, and that's cool.
user3067860
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-18T20:10:44.673Z
@user3067860 I hear that a computer beat the best Go player in the world. How did it get to Carnegie Hall? You don't have to outrun the bear, you just have to run faster than me.
Scott Rowe
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-18T20:37:46.233Z
@ScottRowe You sweet summer child. Go has a handful of rules which can be fully and completely written down in a single page of text. Tell me how many pages of text you are going to need to describe all of the "rules" of, say, a word processor...and don't leave _even a single one_ out.
user3067860
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-18T22:03:34.410Z
@user3067860 have the Go computer analyze word processor usage, and it will probably come up with useful rules no one even thought of. The bear can run pretty fast.
Scott Rowe
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-08-10T22:16:50.040Z
Voice is essentially imprecise, compared to writing, which runs into a wall with highly-precise and low-redundancy languages like math and computing. Voice doesn't seem like a good idea anyplace where other people are around: in a workplace, mass transit, a home with a relaxing family member, etc. (consider how much cross-talk there would be in a standard cube farm)...
Daniel R. Collins
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-08-10T22:17:55.780Z
Fred Brooks was predicting the takeover of voice by 1995 (_Mythical Man Month After 20 Years_, "... speech is surely the right way to express the verbs. Tools such as Voice Navigator for the Mac and Dragon for the PC already provide this capability..."), and here we are ~30 years later and still waiting for that predicted takeover.
Daniel R. Collins
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-08-16T10:26:19.510Z
@DanielR.Collins Maybe voice languages (or, just have one?) should be precise and low redundancy? Maybe cube farms are a bad idea? It took a while to get Microsoft dictation to work well, but we wound up with the "two way wrist TV" long before I thought it would happen. Sometimes the software is ahead of the current hardware and sometimes it's the other way. Always, the humans are behind where they should be. Don't blame technology for what can adequately be explained by ignorance.
Scott Rowe
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-17T19:01:53.403Z
2022-02-20T13:50:23.567Z
2022-02-20T13:50:23.567Z
Scott Rowe
<p>In terms of instruction, especially at the beginning, I find it helpful to ask my students why I'm doing something at every step while demonstrating:</p>
<ol>
<li>I'm going to open the start menu, why am I going to do that?</li>
<li>I'm going to click xyz program, why am I going to do that?</li>
</ol>
<p>Sometimes that leads down a rabbit hole of explanation, but ultimately it serves several purposes:</p>
<ul>
<li>if nobody knows the answer as to why I'm doing it then I know it's something that requires more explanation</li>
<li>if somebody knows the &quot;wrong&quot; information then it's a chance to correct it</li>
<li>if somebody knows the correct answer it gets said out loud for all the other students to hear</li>
</ul>
<p>This approach has really helped me to address problems that I wouldn't have otherwise discovered, as it forces me to slow down on a task that I could normally just fly through, and I get immediate feedback every step of the way.</p>
<hr />
<p>I also like to use categorisation exercises. The students I work with are older, but with that group I find that many of my students <em>do</em> use desktop applications in their personal computer usage. I also find that 99% of the desktop applications they use are video games, but for a simple prompt like:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>&quot;What do you do on your computer?&quot;</p>
</blockquote>
<p>with hypothetical answers like:</p>
<ul>
<li>&quot;Watch YouTube/Netflix&quot;</li>
<li>&quot;Play League of Legends&quot;</li>
<li>&quot;Play VALORANT&quot;</li>
<li>&quot;TikTok/Instagram&quot;</li>
</ul>
<p>Could be put into categories like:</p>
<div class="s-table-container">
<table class="s-table">
<thead>
<tr>
<th style="text-align: center;">Web Applications</th>
<th style="text-align: center;">Mobile Applications</th>
<th style="text-align: center;">Desktop Application</th>
</tr>
</thead>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="text-align: center;">YouTube</td>
<td style="text-align: center;">TikTok</td>
<td style="text-align: center;">League of Legends</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="text-align: center;">Netflix</td>
<td style="text-align: center;">Instagram</td>
<td style="text-align: center;">VALORANT</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
<p>Now, not everything can be categorised 100% neatly, but this type of activity can help to provide a frame of reference built upon the things they already use/are familiar with. Then you can put any future Desktop Applications that you're going to use in class into the &quot;Desktop Application&quot; column. This can help to solidify <em>why</em> the desktop application is not online even if the understanding is limited to &quot;because it's the same way I open X game&quot;.</p>
<hr />
<p>In terms of prevention, it can be very helpful to determine the initial source of misunderstanding or misinformation.</p>
<p>People who interact with computers for a living often use (and talk about) computers differently than the &quot;average&quot; person. I have found many schools choose to move to a singular technology (because software is expensive). The potential exists that a lot of these students are learning how to interact with these programs from instructors who also don't understand the differences themselves.</p>
<p>For example, we moved from the desktop application versions of the Microsoft Suite (like Microsoft Word) to Microsoft Office 365 several years ago. However, many of the non-computer faculty are still telling students &quot;Open up Microsoft Word&quot; by which they currently mean:</p>
<ol>
<li>Open up a web browser</li>
<li>Log into your Student Account</li>
<li>Go to the Microsoft Office 365 Link</li>
<li>Choose Word from the list of Virtual Applications</li>
<li>Create a new document</li>
</ol>
<p>Beyond this, many of these courses <em>are</em> entirely contained within a web browser (read: there is no reason to open any other desktop application to complete all of the work for the course). This sometimes results in faculty telling their students things along the lines of &quot;You never need to open anything other than Chrome&quot; (the web browser that is default on the student machines).</p>
<p>Our student work stations are configured to empty various folders on log out. So students need to have their work saved to their cloud storage <em>not</em> on the device itself. Because of this, many of my students are initially uncomfortable having files local to the machine (even temporarily) because they've been repeatedly taught that anything they save to the computer will be lost if it's not in cloud storage.</p>
<p>I say all of this, not to push the issue onto other departments/teachers, but rather that it <em>is</em> useful to know what misinformation the students have. It's good to know if there are students in the classroom who:</p>
<ul>
<li>believe they are going to get in trouble for exploring other parts of the computer than the web browser</li>
<li>believe that opening the Office365 Word web application through their browser is what it means to open a desktop application</li>
<li>believe that they should never save something to the computer itself for fear of losing it</li>
</ul>
<p>If you can determine exactly why opening the web browser is the default action for your students you will have an easier time in correcting the behaviour. In my experience, for some students it has been as simple as saying, &quot;I know this is different than most of your classes, but in here you're allowed to do x, y, and z. If you break it we'll figure out how to fix it.&quot;</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-17T01:54:41.167Z
Thank you, this is really informative. I hadn't thought of these things. Long ago I used PCs that wiped themselves after I logged off, so in some ways this is similar. But I never worried about breaking anything. The PCs failed often and could take my disk with them, and the shared machines were tanks and basically unbreakable. So the fear of breaking something is hard for me to relate to.
Scott Rowe
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-17T16:24:58.980Z
If you can't mess up a computer at school, where can you?
Scott Rowe
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-18T11:02:30.727Z
@nelson. Breaking a miss-configured MS-Windows machine, is an IT-support problem. If you school can fix it in under 30 seconds, then like where I work, they need to get their act together. see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8Co37GO2Fc
ctrl-alt-delor
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-25T06:06:16.327Z
Wow, this answer perfectly describes the computer situation for all of the computers in the grade schools in my county, at least while I was in grade school. Seeing it all laid out like this... really makes it clear how the logistical concerns behind these policies and configurations clashes with what students (and maybe faculty?) ought to be learning about computers and how they work, or at least the order in which they learn that.
Sarah
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-03-04T14:08:06.777Z
"believe they are going to get in trouble for exploring other parts of the computer than the web browser" is absolutely a real concern. I recall getting called into the office and banned from the school computer lab back in ~2008 because they thought that switching users was hacking. I hope CS educators are up front about what students are allowed to do and establish that they're not as incompetent as the average teacher.
Navin
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-17T00:50:42.080Z
2022-02-17T14:24:09.160Z
2022-02-17T14:24:09.160Z
Henry Ecker
<p>I (thankfully) haven't had the problem you mention quite to the degree that you are having it, but I am seeing more and more of this issue with my students generally.</p>
<p>My focus in this answer is practical: what you might actually do with your students.</p>
<p>Instructionally, you've already found the weakness: they are unaware of where their computer ends, where the internet begins, and how an individual computer is partitioned and organized into &quot;files&quot; and &quot;directories&quot;.</p>
<p>So, my explanation to students would begin exactly there:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Hey folks, I know that all of our computers are connected to the internet, and we use apps, and some of them are on the internet, and some of them are on our computer, and some of them are some kind of mix.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p>The problem is that it's really hard to tell <em>where</em> things are.  Today, we're going to focus on that, and in particular, we're going to talk about how the computer in front of you is organized.  It's actually a pretty simple system, but you're forgiven for not knowing.  Our modern computer ecosystem, with everything on the cloud, and phones organized into some kind of &quot;apps&quot; view, can make it very hard to see.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p>So, the first thing I'm going to do is ask you to <em>disconnect from the wifi</em>.  Get off the internet.  It feels funny, right?  Don't worry, you won't get hurt, and we'll all go back on in a few minutes.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p>Is everyone off?  Excellent.  Now, you're looking at your computer, all by itself.  Are there still files on there?  Of course there are.  Let's take a bit of a look ...</p>
</blockquote>
<p>What follows is a bit of a guided lesson on the idea of a root directory, sub directories, files, and the organizing principle that directories allow us to group things together, and sub-directories allow us to group together sub-groups of that stuff, and sub-sub-directories allow us ... and so on and so forth, fractally.</p>
<p>Depending on the level of your students, I might steer clear of a command prompt for the first few minutes, or even for the first day.  Let them get used to finding things using the mouse and the system GUI before entering into a CLI.  The GUI allows them to <em>see</em>, and that is a big advantage right now.</p>
<p>Also, emphasize the <em>why</em> of it all at every step.  <em>Why</em> are things in directories?  <em>Why</em> are some directories in other directories?  How does this help to organize the computer internally?  How does this help organize the student on the computer?</p>
<p>After you've done directories and files, and come back around to the CLI equivalents, I'd connect back to the internet and talk briefly about the idea of a URL as something that answered the central problem at the beginning of the internet: <em>how can a computer find something that's NOT in its own directories?</em>  The internet was built around getting to files, just like our directory structure!</p>
<p>I wouldn't dwell here, explore it in any real depth, or expand on it much.  My goal, having already talked about directory heirarchies, would be to make Very Firm the distinction between <em>here</em> and <em>elsewhere</em>, and to make clear that all of it comes down to files, and how we can organize files so that they can be found.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-17T18:17:33.443Z
Explaining URLs... I well remember when I read that TCP was originally created to provide remote procedure calls *on a single machine*. Like designing a car just so you could drive down to your mailbox.
Scott Rowe
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-18T11:10:31.280Z
Dolphin is a good tool. I suspect it will help with the transition from navigating local files using the GUI, to using the command line (But not tested with students). It has integration of the two: changing directory in one, also changes it in the other (Clicking a directory X, types `cd X`. And clicking back types `cd ..`).
ctrl-alt-delor
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-17T17:28:09.683Z
2022-02-17T18:31:40.540Z
2022-02-17T18:31:40.540Z
Ben I.
<p>My students have been trained to use tools in the web-browser: cloud word-processors, web-sites, etc.</p>
<p>When I try to teach programming on the computer: using programs that are on the local computer. They find it difficult.</p>
<p>I do a demo. I then show the class one step at a time, what to do.</p>
<ul>
<li>Close web-browser.</li>
<li>Go to start menu, and open xyz program.</li>
</ul>
<p>As I look around the room, one or two students at this step re-open the web-browser, and start attempting to follow the instructions there.</p>
<p>What can I do about this? In terms of:</p>
<ul>
<li>Mitigation: what can I do to improve my instruction?</li>
<li>Prevention: what can I do in the years leading up to this? Will it help?</li>
</ul>
<hr />
<p>Age: Key-stage 3 — Year 7 to 9 — age 11 → 14.
I am encountering the problem in Year 9.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-16T19:39:41.463Z
You ask "what can I do in the years leading up to this?"  What access do you have to the students in the years leading up to this?
Ben I.
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-16T21:10:59.603Z
I feel your pain. My students have to ssh to a machine for some assignments. They try to enter the machine name in the browser. "Hey, it has something-dot-something, it must be a URL".
Victor Eijkhout
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-18T22:06:23.007Z
@VictorEijkhout That sounds like a good DNS (and URL protocol) teaching opportunity, if most of them are doing it.
wizzwizz4
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-24T14:44:37.190Z
I feel that there has been a missed step in the education system on how to use a general purpose computer.  Perhaps that needs to be more addressed?
AllenKll
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-02-27T20:20:15.630Z
@ScottRowe I have voted on most. Purely based on whether they answer the question (not even whether I agree). There are some that have good information, but don't answer the question. They belong somewhere but not here. I voted them down. (the criteria is "did they answer the question"). I will vote on the remainder latter, and may even choose a winner.
ctrl-alt-delor
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-06-01T08:25:45.580Z
This has been asked in 2016 and has no accepted answer. Seems like I now have to teach those kids in university...
JC_CL
<programming><best-practice>
Problems with students stuck in web-browser and what to do about it
# Problems with students stuck in web-browser and what to do about it

(Asked by: username_0 on 2022-02-16)

My students have been trained to use tools in the web-browser: cloud word-processors, web-sites, etc.

When I try to teach programming on the computer: using programs that are on the local computer. They find it difficult.

I do a demo. I then show the class one step at a time, what to do.

* Close web-browser.
* Go to start menu, and open xyz program.

As I look around the room, one or two students at this step re-open the web-browser, and start attempting to follow the instructions there.

What can I do about this? In terms of:

* Mitigation: what can I do to improve my instruction?
* Prevention: what can I do in the years leading up to this? Will it help?

---

Age: Key-stage 3 — Year 7 to 9 — age 11 → 14.
I am encountering the problem in Year 9.

**Tags:** programming, best-practice

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: You ask "what can I do in the years leading up to this?"  What access do you have to the students in the years leading up to this?  
> **username_2**: I feel your pain. My students have to ssh to a machine for some assignments. They try to enter the machine name in the browser. "Hey, it has something-dot-something, it must be a URL".  
> **username_3**: @VictorEijkhout That sounds like a good DNS (and URL protocol) teaching opportunity, if most of them are doing it.  
> **username_4**: I feel that there has been a missed step in the education system on how to use a general purpose computer.  Perhaps that needs to be more addressed?  
> **username_0**: @ScottRowe I have voted on most. Purely based on whether they answer the question (not even whether I agree). There are some that have good information, but don't answer the question. They belong somewhere but not here. I voted them down. (the criteria is "did they answer the question"). I will vote on the remainder latter, and may even choose a winner.  
> **username_5**: This has been asked in 2016 and has no accepted answer. Seems like I now have to teach those kids in university...  

---

## 10 answers

### Answer by username_13 on 2022-02-17. Score: 50

In terms of instruction, especially at the beginning, I find it helpful to ask my students why I'm doing something at every step while demonstrating:

1. I'm going to open the start menu, why am I going to do that?
2. I'm going to click xyz program, why am I going to do that?

Sometimes that leads down a rabbit hole of explanation, but ultimately it serves several purposes:

* if nobody knows the answer as to why I'm doing it then I know it's something that requires more explanation
* if somebody knows the "wrong" information then it's a chance to correct it
* if somebody knows the correct answer it gets said out loud for all the other students to hear

This approach has really helped me to address problems that I wouldn't have otherwise discovered, as it forces me to slow down on a task that I could normally just fly through, and I get immediate feedback every step of the way.

---

I also like to use categorisation exercises. The students I work with are older, but with that group I find that many of my students *do* use desktop applications in their personal computer usage. I also find that 99% of the desktop applications they use are video games, but for a simple prompt like:

> "What do you do on your computer?"

with hypothetical answers like:

* "Watch YouTube/Netflix"
* "Play League of Legends"
* "Play VALORANT"
* "TikTok/Instagram"

Could be put into categories like:

| Web Applications | Mobile Applications | Desktop Application |
| --- | --- | --- |
| YouTube | TikTok | League of Legends |
| Netflix | Instagram | VALORANT |

Now, not everything can be categorised 100% neatly, but this type of activity can help to provide a frame of reference built upon the things they already use/are familiar with. Then you can put any future Desktop Applications that you're going to use in class into the "Desktop Application" column. This can help to solidify *why* the desktop application is not online even if the understanding is limited to "because it's the same way I open X game".

---

In terms of prevention, it can be very helpful to determine the initial source of misunderstanding or misinformation.

People who interact with computers for a living often use (and talk about) computers differently than the "average" person. I have found many schools choose to move to a singular technology (because software is expensive). The potential exists that a lot of these students are learning how to interact with these programs from instructors who also don't understand the differences themselves.

For example, we moved from the desktop application versions of the Microsoft Suite (like Microsoft Word) to Microsoft Office 365 several years ago. However, many of the non-computer faculty are still telling students "Open up Microsoft Word" by which they currently mean:

1. Open up a web browser
2. Log into your Student Account
3. Go to the Microsoft Office 365 Link
4. Choose Word from the list of Virtual Applications
5. Create a new document

Beyond this, many of these courses *are* entirely contained within a web browser (read: there is no reason to open any other desktop application to complete all of the work for the course). This sometimes results in faculty telling their students things along the lines of "You never need to open anything other than Chrome" (the web browser that is default on the student machines).

Our student work stations are configured to empty various folders on log out. So students need to have their work saved to their cloud storage *not* on the device itself. Because of this, many of my students are initially uncomfortable having files local to the machine (even temporarily) because they've been repeatedly taught that anything they save to the computer will be lost if it's not in cloud storage.

I say all of this, not to push the issue onto other departments/teachers, but rather that it *is* useful to know what misinformation the students have. It's good to know if there are students in the classroom who:

* believe they are going to get in trouble for exploring other parts of the computer than the web browser
* believe that opening the Office365 Word web application through their browser is what it means to open a desktop application
* believe that they should never save something to the computer itself for fear of losing it

If you can determine exactly why opening the web browser is the default action for your students you will have an easier time in correcting the behaviour. In my experience, for some students it has been as simple as saying, "I know this is different than most of your classes, but in here you're allowed to do x, y, and z. If you break it we'll figure out how to fix it."

> **Comments:**
> **username_6**: Thank you, this is really informative. I hadn't thought of these things. Long ago I used PCs that wiped themselves after I logged off, so in some ways this is similar. But I never worried about breaking anything. The PCs failed often and could take my disk with them, and the shared machines were tanks and basically unbreakable. So the fear of breaking something is hard for me to relate to.  
> **username_6**: If you can't mess up a computer at school, where can you?  
> **username_0**: @nelson. Breaking a miss-configured MS-Windows machine, is an IT-support problem. If you school can fix it in under 30 seconds, then like where I work, they need to get their act together. see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8Co37GO2Fc  
> **username_14**: Wow, this answer perfectly describes the computer situation for all of the computers in the grade schools in my county, at least while I was in grade school. Seeing it all laid out like this... really makes it clear how the logistical concerns behind these policies and configurations clashes with what students (and maybe faculty?) ought to be learning about computers and how they work, or at least the order in which they learn that.  
> **username_15**: "believe they are going to get in trouble for exploring other parts of the computer than the web browser" is absolutely a real concern. I recall getting called into the office and banned from the school computer lab back in ~2008 because they thought that switching users was hacking. I hope CS educators are up front about what students are allowed to do and establish that they're not as incompetent as the average teacher.  

---

### Answer by username_1 on 2022-02-17. Score: 19

I (thankfully) haven't had the problem you mention quite to the degree that you are having it, but I am seeing more and more of this issue with my students generally.

My focus in this answer is practical: what you might actually do with your students.

Instructionally, you've already found the weakness: they are unaware of where their computer ends, where the internet begins, and how an individual computer is partitioned and organized into "files" and "directories".

So, my explanation to students would begin exactly there:

> Hey folks, I know that all of our computers are connected to the internet, and we use apps, and some of them are on the internet, and some of them are on our computer, and some of them are some kind of mix.

> The problem is that it's really hard to tell *where* things are. Today, we're going to focus on that, and in particular, we're going to talk about how the computer in front of you is organized. It's actually a pretty simple system, but you're forgiven for not knowing. Our modern computer ecosystem, with everything on the cloud, and phones organized into some kind of "apps" view, can make it very hard to see.

> So, the first thing I'm going to do is ask you to *disconnect from the wifi*. Get off the internet. It feels funny, right? Don't worry, you won't get hurt, and we'll all go back on in a few minutes.

> Is everyone off? Excellent. Now, you're looking at your computer, all by itself. Are there still files on there? Of course there are. Let's take a bit of a look ...

What follows is a bit of a guided lesson on the idea of a root directory, sub directories, files, and the organizing principle that directories allow us to group things together, and sub-directories allow us to group together sub-groups of that stuff, and sub-sub-directories allow us ... and so on and so forth, fractally.

Depending on the level of your students, I might steer clear of a command prompt for the first few minutes, or even for the first day. Let them get used to finding things using the mouse and the system GUI before entering into a CLI. The GUI allows them to *see*, and that is a big advantage right now.

Also, emphasize the *why* of it all at every step. *Why* are things in directories? *Why* are some directories in other directories? How does this help to organize the computer internally? How does this help organize the student on the computer?

After you've done directories and files, and come back around to the CLI equivalents, I'd connect back to the internet and talk briefly about the idea of a URL as something that answered the central problem at the beginning of the internet: *how can a computer find something that's NOT in its own directories?* The internet was built around getting to files, just like our directory structure!

I wouldn't dwell here, explore it in any real depth, or expand on it much. My goal, having already talked about directory heirarchies, would be to make Very Firm the distinction between *here* and *elsewhere*, and to make clear that all of it comes down to files, and how we can organize files so that they can be found.

> **Comments:**
> **username_6**: Explaining URLs... I well remember when I read that TCP was originally created to provide remote procedure calls *on a single machine*. Like designing a car just so you could drive down to your mailbox.  
> **username_0**: Dolphin is a good tool. I suspect it will help with the transition from navigating local files using the GUI, to using the command line (But not tested with students). It has integration of the two: changing directory in one, also changes it in the other (Clicking a directory X, types `cd X`. And clicking back types `cd ..`).  

---

### Answer by username_7 on 2022-02-17. Score: 8

I think your students may have [more experience](https://www.npr.org/2019/10/31/774838891/its-a-smartphone-life-more-than-half-of-u-s-children-now-have-one) with *smartphones* than with computers. So if you can explain it in cell phone terms, it may make more sense to them. The Start Menu is like the app drawer. The desktop is like the home screen. The taskbar is like swapping apps. Win+D is a shortcut to get to the desktop, like tapping the Home icon/dot/button on a phone.

And if you can reduce steps, that will help as well. I suggest a permanent icon on the desktop, so this can be two steps: 1) Use Win+D to get to the Desktop (home screen). 2) Double click on the icon to launch the application.

This doesn't solve the long term issues of having no idea how computers work, but exposure over time will at least help with that.


---

### Answer by username_6 on 2022-02-17. Score: 6

You say:

> Go to start menu, and...

One thing I've noticed is that using the Microsoft Start menu is a bit odd. There is the Search box, but I always switch that off because it takes up space and isn't needed. You can and should literally click the icon then just start typing 'excel' or whatever. Yes, even though it looks like there is no place to type. This makes people's eyes cross and usually they refuse to do it.

I basically don't use desktop shortcuts / icons anymore, I just type. I don't use menus or try to find anything in the system screens. So learning to type letters on nothing is unintuitive, but it's the Way.

Similarly I gave up keeping bookmarks / favorites in the browser. I type a few letters and browser history shows it. In my workplace directory, 3 letters of someone's last name finds them.

I gave in to the Microsoft default folder names long ago. I still don't like the Library concept though.

So I just wonder if you lost your students at hello, er... Start?

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been [moved to chat](https://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/134285/discussion-on-answer-by-scott-rowe-problems-with-students-stuck-in-web-browser-a).  

---

### Answer by username_4 on 2022-02-24. Score: 3

As for your purpose - teaching to write programs, I would say, switch to a web based dev environment like [repl.it](https://replit.com/). This will allow your students to start making programs and learning your curriculum. This should solve the immediate issue at hand.

On to the "browser mindset," and a long term fix, it sounds like there has been a major missing piece of instruction leading up your class. I would guess there was no instruction on how to use a general purpose computer, (or at the very least, how to use Windows.) Coving this topic would allow the children to understand that computers are used for more than just accessing the internet to consume content - something a few adults I know need help with.


---

### Answer by username_8 on 2022-02-24. Score: 2

> When I try to teach programming on the computer: using programs that are on the local computer. They find it difficult.

Then don't! I mean, knowing how to use programs on the local computer is certainly worthwhile, but if you're teaching them programming and they're "stuck" in a web browser, teach them how to code within a web browser.

I find <http://gitpod.io> (which is available for free) immensely useful (don't worry, you don't actually need to know git to get started with it). It provides the student, within a few seconds, with a pre-built coding environment (which you, as the teacher, can customize using `.gitpod.yml`), without making any assumptions about what kind of computer they have or what software is installed on it, other than "a reasonably modern browser". It's a wonderful teaching tool - it allows students to spend less time on getting their environment set up just right (what if a subset of your students use a mac? linux? a chromebook? an older version of Windows? a Windows computer set up with an alternative shell, meaning there is no start menu?) and drops them right into, effectively, VS Code set up just-as-the-teacher-intended.

You can have completely separate classes on "how to use a local computer", which, amusingly, is also best accomplished using a virtual environment in the browser, to neutralize the differences between their computers.

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: I had a look. It looks like every student will have to sign up to github (or other service). This will lead to safeguarding problems. Am I correct about this, or is it possible to easily use in anonymously?  
> **username_8**: Standard gitpod does require signing into a service. If you're willing to host a service for your students, you can use this: https://www.gitpod.io/blog/openvscode-server-launch - it doesn't require any authentication whatsoever.  

---

### Answer by username_2 on 2022-02-16. Score: 0

The server and client world are getting ever more indistinguishable. Some programming languages pull dynamically libraries from the web during build. At the tender age of your students maybe not bother them with distinctions that are pretty vague. Meaning: let them use online programming tools.

I know, not quite the answer you wanted.

> **Comments:**
> **username_6**: I was reading about log4j, which was *designed* to be able to yank and run arbitrary remote code automatically gotten from anywhere else on the web, with no validation, and invoke it from deep within a supposedly secure area, perhaps not even directly accessible from the internet at large. You can't make this stuff up! I conclude that it was designed that way deliberately as a back door to be exploited later. There is no other good explanation. Strange world.  
> **username_6**: @Evi1M4chine Perhaps we should have a procedure to keep that from happening? Some kind of company, that would control what went in to the software, and could be held responsible for it?  

---

### Answer by username_9 on 2022-02-23. Score: 0

Depending on your classroom hardware, the most straightforward way it to get them coding in VS Code on a small Unity project.

This demonstrates two things:

* File structure of a project
* Command line to build/debug the project

You could use "Hello World" from the command line, but Unity will hook them b/c it's very visual and a game engine they recognize.

Check out <http://coffeebreakcodes.com/sample-projects-unity/>

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: I've never seen anyone use a CLI to build a unity project, especially not beginners. Usually, we just use the "play" button to get things going in the editor, and use namespaces to make sure it doesn't take too long to compile.  
> **username_1**: Also, welcome to cseducators!  It's a nice first post, and I hope we hear more from you!  

---

### Answer by username_10 on 2022-02-19. Score: 0

One has to see the current state of the art; eg [super device](https://consumer.huawei.com/sa-en/offer/huawei-super-device), which are connected or even foldable desktops. The actual difference is the file-system being used; unless they would understand the difference in between eg. a local `file://` or `content://` URI and a remote `https://` URI, this all might be difficult to understand. A SSD and a local HTTP server could be used to demonstrate the difference. Then one can also show removal USB storage, etc. Offline mode also demonstrates the difference. One may have to teach the very basics, in terms of a) physical hardware and b) remote services. The behavior might stem from being used to eg. a Chromebook. See [3 strategies to change user behavior](https://www.oreilly.com/content/3-strategies-to-change-user-behavior/). And the idea is not even completely wrong; [AWS Cloud9](https://aws.amazon.com/cloud9) might be an option. Or how about running a ChromeOS device in an Android emulator, just to show what it is?

Directly letting them compare a local IDE with a cloud IDE would show the possibilities and limitations of each of the environments. I mean, one just would have to develop a teaching program which both kinds of students can apply; eg. instead of saying "open your local shell prompt" this would be "open your `gcloud ssh` shell prompt" (in a browser window). Alike this, nobody would have to feel "wrong" for simply not knowing it any better and they could compare. Then one can start teasing them, eg. with commands that may work locally but not remotely, or the other way around (always two students, who can compare).

> **Comments:**
> **username_10**: Meanwhile there's two ways of doing things (computing) and neither is necessarily wrong, they're just different - and assuming they may have eg. the same Linux distribution locally and remote, this should be comparable.  

---

### Answer by username_6 on 2022-02-17. Score: -1

A comment to my other Answer suggested that this would be useful information, but I felt it was tangential to that answer so here is another one.

Consider that voice is becoming the default way to tell a computing device something, and for it to respond. Office 365 has Dictation built in, and it works well. Even children can now accidentally get their invisible pal to order things.

In this situation, how would anyone know what is on their device, and why would they care? Perhaps we need to advance teaching beyond what we do now, to what people will be doing very soon?

Humans have used primarily voice to interact with other beings since long before Cuneiform became the killer app 5000 years ago. It seems vastly the easiest way, and can be used while doing other things.

> **Comments:**
> **username_6**: No dictation was used in the making of this Answer.  
> **username_11**: I very much doubt that typing will disappear. Sure maybe some people will interact with computers only through voice commands, just as some people only use GUIs. But the command line is still alive and well and will always be preferred by power users for some tasks due to its expressiveness and precision. Also, good typists can type faster than they can speak. Some years ago people argued that typing commands would be completely replaced by GUIs, yet recently I've seen a reverse trend: many people have moved from plotting data with GUI tools to plotting with Python packages.  
> **username_6**: @username_11 I can still: ride a horse, drive a manual (less common in the US), sail a boat, use a darkroom and entirely manual camera, fix old radios, etc... But these things are in schools less and less, and in homes rarer still. If people don't need them, they have no concept, like the many people under 20 who have no idea that files and folders exist. Google it. Where do we start then, if college students can't locate their work, let alone turn it in? A Bridge Too Far.  
> **username_11**: @ScottRowe I thought about this more and changed my mind. I can see keyboards getting mostly replaced by another technology. +1  
> **username_7**: Because it turns out that natural language is hard and understanding (any kind of understanding) is impossible for computers as we know them (at best a computer can fake understanding, but there's simply not one ounce of understanding happening there). Otherwise there would already be software to turn a business analyst's design into more software without actual programmers being needed--but instead, we can (notoriously) not even turn a design into perfect software even with a whole team of developers, actually the BA can't even create a perfect design from a customer description!  
> **username_6**: @username_7 Right, understanding is hard, but you can get surprisingly far with good guessing, just ask a dog. They often know what we are feeling or are about to do before we realize it ourselves! I think that computers could write much better software than humans, but they should leave art, music and comedy to us. If it can be automated though it will.  
> **username_6**: One thing I often do is what I call "Car Talk". That's when I explain to my car when it beeps at me for straying past the lane markers or getting too close to that car ahead that is turning, *why* I did that. I know it isn't listening now, but soon it will, and will tell its billion buddies. Then things are going to change fast. "*If I'd asked people what they* wanted, *they would have said, 'smarter cars'*"  
> **username_7**: @ScottRowe You're reminding me of the professor who assigned "computer vision" as a summer project to a grad student in the 1960s. If a computer replaces my job anytime in my lifetime I will be extremely happy because 1) there will have been huge advances to medical technology in order to extend my lifespan that long, 2) I will be enjoying learning about it on Mars, and that's cool.  
> **username_6**: @username_7 I hear that a computer beat the best Go player in the world. How did it get to Carnegie Hall? You don't have to outrun the bear, you just have to run faster than me.  
> **username_7**: @ScottRowe You sweet summer child. Go has a handful of rules which can be fully and completely written down in a single page of text. Tell me how many pages of text you are going to need to describe all of the "rules" of, say, a word processor...and don't leave _even a single one_ out.  
> **username_6**: @username_7 have the Go computer analyze word processor usage, and it will probably come up with useful rules no one even thought of. The bear can run pretty fast.  
> **username_12**: Voice is essentially imprecise, compared to writing, which runs into a wall with highly-precise and low-redundancy languages like math and computing. Voice doesn't seem like a good idea anyplace where other people are around: in a workplace, mass transit, a home with a relaxing family member, etc. (consider how much cross-talk there would be in a standard cube farm)...  
> **username_12**: Fred Brooks was predicting the takeover of voice by 1995 (_Mythical Man Month After 20 Years_, "... speech is surely the right way to express the verbs. Tools such as Voice Navigator for the Mac and Dragon for the PC already provide this capability..."), and here we are ~30 years later and still waiting for that predicted takeover.  
> **username_6**: @DanielR.Collins Maybe voice languages (or, just have one?) should be precise and low redundancy? Maybe cube farms are a bad idea? It took a while to get Microsoft dictation to work well, but we wound up with the "two way wrist TV" long before I thought it would happen. Sometimes the software is ahead of the current hardware and sometimes it's the other way. Always, the humans are behind where they should be. Don't blame technology for what can adequately be explained by ignorance.  

---

