<blockquote>
<p>天下之患，莫大於不知其然而然，不知其然而然者，是拱手而待亂也</p>
</blockquote>
<p><a href="https://zh.wikisource.org/zh-hant/%E7%AD%96%E7%95%A5%E4%B8%80" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://zh.wikisource.org/zh-hant/策略一</a></p>
<p>i would read as:</p>
<p>[amongst] worrisomes of the [governance of the] dynasty (天下之患), none is more severe than (莫大於) not recognising (不知) the situation (其然) and (而) [behaving according to such] situation (然)</p>
<p>those who (者) not recognising the situation and behaving according to such situation (不知其然而然); [they] are (是) fold their hands (拱手) and await the peril (而待亂也)</p>
<p>have fun :)</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-12-16T07:46:23.837Z
Thank you! You are saying the second 然 should be understood verbally (act accordingly) in context. I think this improves the coherence of another text I am translating. I will mention your help gratefully. I will point to your username unless you wish otherwise.
Ludi
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-12-16T09:25:26.120Z
I think, support for your reading can be drawn from Xunzi: 「禮者、所以正身也，師者、所以正禮也。無禮何以正身？無師吾安知禮之為是也？禮然而然，則是情安禮也；師云而云，則是知若師也。」Here Hutton gives: ”Ritual is that by which to correct your person. The teacher is that by which to correct your practice of ritual. If you are without ritual, then how will you correct your person? If you are without a teacher, how will you know that your practice of ritual is right? *When ritual is so, and you are also so*, then this means your disposition accords with ritual.“ Now, the cursive, I believe, could also be read *When ritual is so, and you act accordingly*.
Ludi
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-12-16T09:31:32.440Z
I suppose, reading of 然 as 了然 could be discussed, but considering the 拱手而待 (a stance of inaction) your explanation is far more convincing. 
Ludi
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-12-16T12:23:51.717Z
@Ludi, well, i prefer anonymous, the current political situation is, . . . repressive in you-know-where  btw, would you read my profile & comment it  https://chinese.stackexchange.com/users/13199/水巷孑蠻?tab=profile
水巷孑蠻
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-12-16T12:32:41.957Z
@Ludi “禮然而然” —> “When ritual is so, and you act accordingly”; very good comprehension 
水巷孑蠻
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-12-17T16:07:29.940Z
I will give it a couple of attempts, so as to really understand it. I have tried before, without understanding enough, and tears came to my eyes 
Ludi
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-12-15T17:17:50.930Z
2023-12-15T17:17:50.930Z
水巷孑蠻
<p>At first glance, this appears to mean</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Not knowing （one‘s) being (in) such (a situation), but still being (in) such (a situation).</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I searched texts with translations and found <a href="https://so.gushiwen.cn/shiwenv_c7b200119450.aspx" rel="nofollow noreferrer">this one</a>, containing the sentence/translation:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>俄而物诱气随，外适内和。一宿体宁，再宿心恬，三宿后颓然嗒然，不知其然而然。/ 只要住一宿，身体就十分安宁，住两夜更感到心情平静安适，住三个晚上以后，心旷神怡，物我两忘，也不知是如何进入这种状态的。</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Clearly, the translator took 然而然 to mean something like 何故然、何以然⋯</p>
<p>But, since I don’t find a basis of interpreting 然而 alone in this way, I thought I’d better ask.</p>
<p>The combination also appears in Su Dongpo‘s 策略一, where,again , as far as I can tell, both readings lead to a coherent text:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>天下之患，莫大于不知其然而然，不知其然而然者，是拱手而待乱也。
Of the realm’s perilous states, there is none greater than its being so without people knowing it/why.
Those who are ignorant of the situation/cause
shall fold their hands and await the peril.</p>
</blockquote>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-12-15T16:55:55.553Z
I don't think 然 has a meaning of "cause".
user2249675
<translation><grammar><classical-chinese>
How to understand 不知其然而然?
# How to understand 不知其然而然?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2023-12-15)

At first glance, this appears to mean

> Not knowing （one‘s) being (in) such (a situation), but still being (in) such (a situation).

I searched texts with translations and found [this one](https://so.gushiwen.cn/shiwenv_c7b200119450.aspx), containing the sentence/translation:

> 俄而物诱气随，外适内和。一宿体宁，再宿心恬，三宿后颓然嗒然，不知其然而然。/ 只要住一宿，身体就十分安宁，住两夜更感到心情平静安适，住三个晚上以后，心旷神怡，物我两忘，也不知是如何进入这种状态的。

Clearly, the translator took 然而然 to mean something like 何故然、何以然⋯

But, since I don’t find a basis of interpreting 然而 alone in this way, I thought I’d better ask.

The combination also appears in Su Dongpo‘s 策略一, where,again , as far as I can tell, both readings lead to a coherent text:

> 天下之患，莫大于不知其然而然，不知其然而然者，是拱手而待乱也。
> Of the realm’s perilous states, there is none greater than its being so without people knowing it/why.
> Those who are ignorant of the situation/cause
> shall fold their hands and await the peril.

**Tags:** translation, grammar, classical-chinese

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: I don't think 然 has a meaning of "cause".  

---

## 1 answers

### Answer by username_2 on 2023-12-15. Score: 3 | Accepted answer

> 天下之患，莫大於不知其然而然，不知其然而然者，是拱手而待亂也

[https://zh.wikisource.org/zh-hant/策略一](https://zh.wikisource.org/zh-hant/%E7%AD%96%E7%95%A5%E4%B8%80)

i would read as:

[amongst] worrisomes of the [governance of the] dynasty (天下之患), none is more severe than (莫大於) not recognising (不知) the situation (其然) and (而) [behaving according to such] situation (然)

those who (者) not recognising the situation and behaving according to such situation (不知其然而然); [they] are (是) fold their hands (拱手) and await the peril (而待亂也)

have fun :)

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Thank you! You are saying the second 然 should be understood verbally (act accordingly) in context. I think this improves the coherence of another text I am translating. I will mention your help gratefully. I will point to your username unless you wish otherwise.  
> **username_0**: I think, support for your reading can be drawn from Xunzi: 「禮者、所以正身也，師者、所以正禮也。無禮何以正身？無師吾安知禮之為是也？禮然而然，則是情安禮也；師云而云，則是知若師也。」Here Hutton gives: ”Ritual is that by which to correct your person. The teacher is that by which to correct your practice of ritual. If you are without ritual, then how will you correct your person? If you are without a teacher, how will you know that your practice of ritual is right? *When ritual is so, and you are also so*, then this means your disposition accords with ritual.“ Now, the cursive, I believe, could also be read *When ritual is so, and you act accordingly*.  
> **username_0**: I suppose, reading of 然 as 了然 could be discussed, but considering the 拱手而待 (a stance of inaction) your explanation is far more convincing.   
> **username_2**: @username_0, well, i prefer anonymous, the current political situation is, . . . repressive in you-know-where  btw, would you read my profile & comment it  https://chinese.stackexchange.com/users/13199/username_2?tab=profile  
> **username_2**: @username_0 “禮然而然” —> “When ritual is so, and you act accordingly”; very good comprehension   
> **username_0**: I will give it a couple of attempts, so as to really understand it. I have tried before, without understanding enough, and tears came to my eyes   

---

