<blockquote>
  <p>君臣不得不尊﹒父子不得不親﹒兄弟不得不順﹒夫婦不得不驩﹒少者以長﹒老者以養﹒故天地生之﹒聖人成之</p>
</blockquote>

<p>i think that there's severe misinterpretation.</p>

<h3>the text is to emphasise the importance of saint's etiquette (聖人之禮法)</h3>

<p>the scanned copy in internet archive: <a href="https://archive.org/stream/06072285.cn#page/n45/mode/1up" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://archive.org/stream/06072285.cn#page/n45/mode/1up</a></p>

<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/VlXcI.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/VlXcI.png" alt="enter image description here"></a>
there's a remark <strong>"不得謂不得聖人之禮法"</strong> and <strong>"驩與歡同"</strong> after the verse "老者以養"</p>

<p>the orthodox way of interpretation should be:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>君臣不得不尊</p>
</blockquote>

<p>--> 君臣﹒不得聖人之禮法﹒不尊</p>

<p>[in the relationship of] a ruler (君) and his minister (臣), [if] saint's etiquette (聖人之禮法) is not (不) learnt (得), the minister would not (不) respect (尊) the ruler.</p>

<p>in this type of relationship, respect (尊) is one way only, a proper behaviour performed by a minister (臣, aka the lower strata one) to his ruler (君, aka the upper strata one).</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>夫婦不得不驩</p>
</blockquote>

<p>--> 夫婦﹒不得聖人之禮法﹒不驩</p>

<p>[in the relationship of] a husband (夫) and wife (婦), [if] saint's etiquette (聖人之禮法) is not (不) learnt (得), the  wife (婦) would not (不) please (驩) her husband (夫).</p>

<p>in this type of relationship, please (驩) is one way only, a proper behaviour performed by a wife (婦, aka the lower strata one) to her husband (夫 aka the upper strata one).</p>

<p>the remark stated 驩 (u+9a69) is equal to 歡 (u+6b61). i would interpret it to "please", as a verb.</p>

<p>about how can a wife "please" her husband, you may imagine it freely :)</p>

<p>have fun 　</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-08-18T03:32:02.380Z
I up voted your post because  you provided  the remark that's not in the OP's post. That clear thing a lot. But I disagree the one way street  interpretation about 父子, 兄弟 and 夫婦. In saint's etiquette, both 父 and 子 need to love the other; both older and younger brother need to be agreeable to each other. And it is as much a  husband's responsibility to please his wife as a wife's  responsibility to please her husband. As for 君臣, it is possible that the demand of respect is on the retainers only.
Tang Ho
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-08-18T08:53:17.780Z
well, in ancient patriarchy society, it's very unlikely that, a male would be advised to please his wife :( further, in a autocracy society, people would be "conditioned" to have an obedient attitude; such socialisation is started in family, when they're young, as a son (子), or younger brother (弟), then later, when they gained the post of government official (臣). that's the rationale why i think that the four proper behaviour (尊, 親, 順 and 驩) suggested by saint's etiquette, are one way only. these're not mutual.
水巷孑蠻
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-08-18T08:57:57.203Z
well, i must declare that, i think these are prejudices, or stereotypes; an negative side of the culture. but, at the same time, using nowadays liberal, free mindset to interpret ancient text; would miss, or distort the original underlying assumptions. have fun 　
水巷孑蠻
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-08-18T10:06:12.487Z
I understand in practice, people of higher status tend to demand to be respected, loved, followed and pleased  by the people in the lower status, but that is corrupted interpretation of the saint's words by the people in power. Saints taught rulers to be respectful, father to be loving, older brother to be agreeable with younger brother and husband to treat his wife well too, However, the power was in the hands of the ruler, the father, older brother and husband. Saint's lessons were there for their convenience.
Tang Ho
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-08-18T10:08:54.003Z
Just like bible told us that we are the care taker of the world. But people just conveniently interpreted it as "we own the world and can do whatever we please to all living things in it."
Tang Ho
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-08-28T12:34:05.353Z
Thank you very much. That took me quite a while to understand...
Ludi
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-08-28T12:41:55.817Z
the grammar / logic of classical chinese is very difficult. then, my english is not adequate to translate the original meanings :(
水巷孑蠻
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-08-18T02:31:52.837Z
2017-08-18T02:31:52.837Z
水巷孑蠻
<p>水巷孑蠻 wrote:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>there's a remark &quot;不得謂不得聖人之禮法&quot; and &quot;驩與歡同&quot; after the verse &quot;老者以養&quot;</p>
</blockquote>
<p><strong>Edit</strong>:</p>
<p>聖人之禮法 saint's etiquette</p>
<p>君臣不得不尊，without it, retainer  would not respect the ruler</p>
<p>父子不得不親，without it, father and son would not love each other</p>
<p>兄弟不得不順，without it, brothers would not be agreeable to each other</p>
<p>夫婦不得不驩(<strong>歡</strong>)，without it, husband and wife would not <strong>please</strong> each other</p>
<p><em>In saint's etiquette, both 父 and 子 need to love each other; both older and younger brother need to be agreeable to each other. And it is as much a husband's responsibility to please his wife as a wife's responsibility to please her husband. As for 君臣, it is possible that the demand to respect is on the retainers only.</em></p>
<p>My original post before knowing there's a remark:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>君臣不得不尊，ruler and retainer must respect each other</p>
<p>父子不得不親，father and son must love each other</p>
<p>兄弟不得不順，brothers must be agreeable to each other</p>
<p>夫婦不得不驩(<strong>歡</strong>)，husband and wife must <strong>please</strong> each other</p>
<p>少者以長，grow the young</p>
<p>老者以養。take care of the old</p>
<p>故天地生之，that's how the world is formed</p>
<p>聖人成之。saint is created</p>
<p><em>荀子's words mentioned 'mutually respect, love, follow and please' ; but in practice, a retainer is expected to respect his ruler, a son is expected to love his father, a younger brother is expected to follow his older brother and <strong>a wife is expected to please her husband</strong>. The expectation on the other end is more often, treated like a suggestion.</em></p>
</blockquote>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-08-17T12:44:49.430Z
2017-08-18T07:52:38.090Z
2020-06-17T09:50:11.587Z
Tang Ho
<p><strong>说文解字:</strong></p>

<blockquote>
  <p>(歡) 喜樂也。从欠。雚聲。呼官切。十四部。孟子借驩爲歡。</p>
</blockquote>

<p>Just means 'happy'</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-08-17T11:41:02.140Z
2017-08-17T11:41:02.140Z
sfy
<p><a href="http://www.zdic.net/z/1c/js/6B22.htm" rel="nofollow noreferrer">http://www.zdic.net/z/1c/js/6B22.htm</a></p>

<p>(2) 欢： 欢爱。指男女交合之事</p>

<p>Maybe it means 'husband and wife must have sexual relations'. Seems odd to say 'husband and wife must be happy'. You can't force happiness! 'Please' on the other hand could mean 'sexually please each other'</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-08-17T23:19:33.680Z
2017-08-17T23:19:33.680Z
Pedroski
<p>In the 大略 荀子 requires：</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>君臣不得不尊，父子不得不親，兄弟不得不順，夫婦不得不驩，少者以長，老者以養。故天地生之，聖人成之。</p>
</blockquote>

<p>My dictionary says this word 驩 is </p>

<ol>
<li>a term for horse breeding</li>
<li>A form of 歡</li>
</ol>

<p>I am thinking, it must be the second meaning implied above. But 歡, too, carries so many meanings! There is:</p>

<ol>
<li>Happy, merry </li>
<li>Sweetheart, love, as in 另覓新歡</li>
</ol>

<p>And some dialect meanings are listed as well. I was tempted to think 荀子 means husband and wife must be sweethearts, but it sounds very extroverted for ancient Chinese; I am probably missing the real meaning.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-08-18T02:34:37.580Z
ludi, 驩 is not a relationship, it's a verb. have a look of my answer :)
水巷孑蠻
<classical-chinese>
What is the relationship 驩 required by the 大略 between husband and wife?
# What is the relationship 驩 required by the 大略 between husband and wife?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2017-08-17)

In the 大略 荀子 requires：

> 君臣不得不尊，父子不得不親，兄弟不得不順，夫婦不得不驩，少者以長，老者以養。故天地生之，聖人成之。

My dictionary says this word 驩 is

1. a term for horse breeding
2. A form of 歡

I am thinking, it must be the second meaning implied above. But 歡, too, carries so many meanings! There is:

1. Happy, merry
2. Sweetheart, love, as in 另覓新歡

And some dialect meanings are listed as well. I was tempted to think 荀子 means husband and wife must be sweethearts, but it sounds very extroverted for ancient Chinese; I am probably missing the real meaning.

**Tags:** classical-chinese

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: username_0, 驩 is not a relationship, it's a verb. have a look of my answer :)  

---

## 4 answers

### Answer by username_1 on 2017-08-18. Score: 2 | Accepted answer

> 君臣不得不尊﹒父子不得不親﹒兄弟不得不順﹒夫婦不得不驩﹒少者以長﹒老者以養﹒故天地生之﹒聖人成之

i think that there's severe misinterpretation.

### the text is to emphasise the importance of saint's etiquette (聖人之禮法)

the scanned copy in internet archive: <https://archive.org/stream/06072285.cn#page/n45/mode/1up>

[![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/VlXcI.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/VlXcI.png)
there's a remark **"不得謂不得聖人之禮法"** and **"驩與歡同"** after the verse "老者以養"

the orthodox way of interpretation should be:

> 君臣不得不尊

--> 君臣﹒不得聖人之禮法﹒不尊

[in the relationship of] a ruler (君) and his minister (臣), [if] saint's etiquette (聖人之禮法) is not (不) learnt (得), the minister would not (不) respect (尊) the ruler.

in this type of relationship, respect (尊) is one way only, a proper behaviour performed by a minister (臣, aka the lower strata one) to his ruler (君, aka the upper strata one).

> 夫婦不得不驩

--> 夫婦﹒不得聖人之禮法﹒不驩

[in the relationship of] a husband (夫) and wife (婦), [if] saint's etiquette (聖人之禮法) is not (不) learnt (得), the wife (婦) would not (不) please (驩) her husband (夫).

in this type of relationship, please (驩) is one way only, a proper behaviour performed by a wife (婦, aka the lower strata one) to her husband (夫 aka the upper strata one).

the remark stated 驩 (u+9a69) is equal to 歡 (u+6b61). i would interpret it to "please", as a verb.

about how can a wife "please" her husband, you may imagine it freely :)

have fun

> **Comments:**
> **username_2**: I up voted your post because  you provided  the remark that's not in the OP's post. That clear thing a lot. But I disagree the one way street  interpretation about 父子, 兄弟 and 夫婦. In saint's etiquette, both 父 and 子 need to love the other; both older and younger brother need to be agreeable to each other. And it is as much a  husband's responsibility to please his wife as a wife's  responsibility to please her husband. As for 君臣, it is possible that the demand of respect is on the retainers only.  
> **username_1**: well, in ancient patriarchy society, it's very unlikely that, a male would be advised to please his wife :( further, in a autocracy society, people would be "conditioned" to have an obedient attitude; such socialisation is started in family, when they're young, as a son (子), or younger brother (弟), then later, when they gained the post of government official (臣). that's the rationale why i think that the four proper behaviour (尊, 親, 順 and 驩) suggested by saint's etiquette, are one way only. these're not mutual.  
> **username_1**: well, i must declare that, i think these are prejudices, or stereotypes; an negative side of the culture. but, at the same time, using nowadays liberal, free mindset to interpret ancient text; would miss, or distort the original underlying assumptions. have fun 　  
> **username_2**: I understand in practice, people of higher status tend to demand to be respected, loved, followed and pleased  by the people in the lower status, but that is corrupted interpretation of the saint's words by the people in power. Saints taught rulers to be respectful, father to be loving, older brother to be agreeable with younger brother and husband to treat his wife well too, However, the power was in the hands of the ruler, the father, older brother and husband. Saint's lessons were there for their convenience.  
> **username_2**: Just like bible told us that we are the care taker of the world. But people just conveniently interpreted it as "we own the world and can do whatever we please to all living things in it."  
> **username_0**: Thank you very much. That took me quite a while to understand...  
> **username_1**: the grammar / logic of classical chinese is very difficult. then, my english is not adequate to translate the original meanings :(  

---

### Answer by username_2 on 2017-08-17. Score: 3

username_1 wrote:

> there's a remark "不得謂不得聖人之禮法" and "驩與歡同" after the verse "老者以養"

**Edit**:

聖人之禮法 saint's etiquette

君臣不得不尊，without it, retainer would not respect the ruler

父子不得不親，without it, father and son would not love each other

兄弟不得不順，without it, brothers would not be agreeable to each other

夫婦不得不驩(**歡**)，without it, husband and wife would not **please** each other

*In saint's etiquette, both 父 and 子 need to love each other; both older and younger brother need to be agreeable to each other. And it is as much a husband's responsibility to please his wife as a wife's responsibility to please her husband. As for 君臣, it is possible that the demand to respect is on the retainers only.*

My original post before knowing there's a remark:

> 君臣不得不尊，ruler and retainer must respect each other
>
> 父子不得不親，father and son must love each other
>
> 兄弟不得不順，brothers must be agreeable to each other
>
> 夫婦不得不驩(**歡**)，husband and wife must **please** each other
>
> 少者以長，grow the young
>
> 老者以養。take care of the old
>
> 故天地生之，that's how the world is formed
>
> 聖人成之。saint is created
>
> *荀子's words mentioned 'mutually respect, love, follow and please' ; but in practice, a retainer is expected to respect his ruler, a son is expected to love his father, a younger brother is expected to follow his older brother and **a wife is expected to please her husband**. The expectation on the other end is more often, treated like a suggestion.*


---

### Answer by username_3 on 2017-08-17. Score: 0

**说文解字:**

> (歡) 喜樂也。从欠。雚聲。呼官切。十四部。孟子借驩爲歡。

Just means 'happy'


---

### Answer by username_4 on 2017-08-17. Score: 0

<http://www.zdic.net/z/1c/js/6B22.htm>

(2) 欢： 欢爱。指男女交合之事

Maybe it means 'husband and wife must have sexual relations'. Seems odd to say 'husband and wife must be happy'. You can't force happiness! 'Please' on the other hand could mean 'sexually please each other'


---

