<p>This is a difficult problem to address, because 等等 apparently fits one of the criteria for neutral tone, but at the same time there is tone sandhi for two conjoint third-tone words. The following attempts to resolve the conflict between the two rules:</p>
<p><strong>The pronunciation of <code>33</code> words</strong></p>
<ol start="0">
<li><p>In my explanation below, I use <code>1</code> through <code>4</code> to indicate the first to fourth tones respectively, <code>0</code> to indicate the fifth or neutral tone, <code>X &gt; Y</code> to indicate an alteration in tone from pattern <code>X</code> to <code>Y</code>, and tone letters <code>˩ ˨ ˧ ˦ ˥</code>, five-levelled, arranged from lowest to highest here, to describe the pitch change within a particular tone.</p>
</li>
<li><p>If the second third-tone character is <em>justified</em> to be pronounced in the neutral tone, then the first third-tone character remains pronounced in the third-tone, i.e. <code>33 &gt; 30</code>. Justifications for neutral tone may be of one of the following types:</p>
</li>
</ol>
<ul>
<li>寶寶, 姐姐: they are words formed by reduplication (重疊).</li>
<li>椅子, 法子, 影子: they are formed by the suffix (詞綴) ～子, which is arguably diminutive and duly reflected in its pronunciation.</li>
<li>打點: to contrast polysemy, especially in mainland Mandarin. <code>dǎ dian</code> means to organise things or to get ready, but <code>dǎ diǎn &gt; dá diǎn</code> literally means the clock strikes a certain time. In general, <em>figurative</em> meanings are marked by a neutral tone, but not so in <em>literal</em> meanings.</li>
<li>耳朵, 馬虎: by convention, including Taiwanese Mandarin (which is akin to <code>33 &gt; 31</code> instead of <code>33 &gt; 30</code>).</li>
</ul>
<ol start="2">
<li>Notable exceptions (i.e. those that still follow tone sandhi <code>33 &gt; 23</code> despite apparently fitting the listed criteria for neutral tone)</li>
</ol>
<ul>
<li>裊裊 <code>niǎo niǎo</code>, 緊緊, 等等: reduplicated words that are adverbial or adjectival.</li>
<li>每每 (every time), 秒秒 (every second), 種種 (every kind): words that mean 'every sth.' (equivalent to 每～, as in 每秒, 每種). In these words, there is something more than mere character redundancy.</li>
<li>汩汩 <code>gǔ gǔ</code>: reduplicated words that are onomatopoeic.</li>
<li>孔子, 老子: 子 here is not a diminutive suffix but a meaningful character in itself (an honorary title for the philosophical greats).</li>
<li>嘴裏, 手裏: directional complements such as ～裏 are usually a good justification to be pronounced in the neutral tone (e.g., 心裏 <code>xīn lǐ &gt; xīn li</code>, 海上 <code>hǎi shàng &gt; hǎi shang</code>). However, it seems more natural to pronounce <code>33</code> ～裏 words as <code>23</code> or <code>20</code> instead of <code>30</code>.</li>
<li>Most words in 1., but read in Taiwanese Mandarin.</li>
</ul>
<ol start="3">
<li><p>Saying <code>33 &gt; 23</code> words are pronounced like <code>33 &gt; 23 &gt; 20</code> is a dangerous metaphor. That is because the second third-tone is not tone<em>less</em> (<code>0</code>) per se (unless it is well justified, as in 1.; 等等 is not). Besides, this analogy complicates things. At most, we can only say the 'tail' of the pitch <code>˨ ˩ ˦</code> in the third tone is discarded, becoming <code>˨ ˩</code>, and that is not limited to conjoint third-tone words. Even a word as simple as 我 <code>wǒ ˨ ˩ ˦ &gt; ˨ ˩</code> can behave like that in a spoken sentence.</p>
</li>
<li><p>A simple explanation of the pitch of the neutral tone is given by the syllabus of Putonghua Proficiency Test (普通話水平測試實施綱要) (p. 35):</p>
</li>
</ol>
<ul>
<li><p>When the neutral tone follows the third tone, it takes on a slightly <em>higher</em> pitch. (The pitch of the third tone is low enough; one then raises the pitch of the neutral tone that follows to differentiate between the two.)</p>
</li>
<li><p>This is in contrast to the neutral tone's taking on a slightly <em>lower</em> pitch when it follows the first (e.g. 媽媽), second (e.g. 玩啊), or fourth tone (e.g. 去吧).</p>
</li>
</ul>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-03-16T10:01:55.880Z
Lots of useful information here! Just a few small comments however. A) in #1, it seems that the 5 folllowing bullet points list some different possible "justifications". Is this an exhaustive list? Rather than "for example", maybe you could put "Justifications may be of one of the following types:", or "Justifications must be of …". B) Point #5 is perhaps a little bit off topic, but for me at least it's a handy reminder. I think it's a better explanation than the other one on SE: https://chinese.stackexchange.com/questions/21395/generalize-consecutive-third-tones-change-rule
goPlayerJuggler
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-03-16T11:16:44.693Z
1. Zhang Bennan & Yang Ruowei (2007). [普通話連讀音變]. Hong Kong: Commercial Press. 2. Lu Yunzhong (1995). [普通話的輕聲和兒化]. Hong Kong: Commercial Press.
L Parker
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-03-16T11:26:07.893Z
A): My list is not absolutely exhaustive. For example: 裁縫 as a noun (tailor) is pronounced `cái feng` but `cái féng` as a verb (to sew). Zhang and Yang (2007:86) argues when the verb 避諱 (to taboo) is intransitive, it is pronounced as `bì hui`, but `bì huǐ` when transitive. These are not polysemous but are still distinguished by the neutral tone. `33` examples of this category may exist. My approach was instead first referencing the works of Lu (1995:24-28) (cited in section 3.2 of this report: https://bit.ly/3vtYv0S) - reasonably authoritative - then coming up with just `33` examples.
L Parker
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-03-16T13:50:05.987Z
Two more comments. 1) it's not clear to me why the section #5 is hidden in a "spoiler" section. 2) the tone letters "merge" on my PC but not on my Android phone. But when a space is added between them I seem them as distinct symbols. Eg here I see 3 symbols:  ˩ ˨ ˧, where here I see one symbol  ˩˨˧, a bit like a "y" upside down. Maybe it would improve your answer to add spaces in between these characters. (I could do that for you as an edit, if you like, it should be fairly easy for me via a regular expression search/replace. Let me know...)
goPlayerJuggler
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-03-16T14:07:51.147Z
Thanks for your suggestions; I've edited them myself. (I think the tone letters are supposed to merge, but to be consistent I've followed your advice and added spaces in between)
L Parker
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-03-16T14:14:51.220Z
Thanks for your detailed, high quality answer! // Just in case, I would like to point you to another question I asked 6 years ago, that never got a good answer. I've more or less found out my own answer(s) to this topic but I never yet got round to writing them up. (In any case my answers to this question are likely never going to be authoritative.) Perhaps you may have some time to look at it? Thanks. https://chinese.stackexchange.com/questions/14826/words-where-it-is-important-to-distinguish-between-the-neutral-tone-and-the-cita
goPlayerJuggler
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-03-16T19:30:56.567Z
Let us [continue this discussion in chat](https://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/120929/discussion-between-goplayerjuggler-and-l-parker).
goPlayerJuggler
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-03-16T01:04:42.337Z
2021-03-16T14:08:29.017Z
2021-03-16T14:08:29.017Z
L Parker
<p>It's pronounced</p>
<blockquote>
<p>deng2deng<strong>3</strong></p>
</blockquote>
<p>as in the typical tonal sandhi of two consecutive 3rd tones, like 老板 (lao2ban3).</p>
<p>However I wouldn't outright exclude your first suggestion <em>deng2deng0</em>, as it might be pronounced like that in fast speech, or in the middle of a sentence.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-03-15T15:01:06.463Z
So if it's pronounced deng2deng3, then deng2 is higher than deng3, but if it's said like deng2 deng0, is deng2 still higher than deng0? Another good example is 宝宝 I always thought it was bao2bao3 but I always hear it spoken like bao3bao0 (bao3 being lower than bao0)
MuchAppreciated25
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-03-15T15:18:42.917Z
@MuchAppreciated25 to understand the pitch of the fifth tone you can search "tone contours" graphics. A full explanation is kind of long for a comment. Anyway, yes deng2 is higher than deng0
blackgreen
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-03-14T21:34:40.327Z
2021-03-14T21:34:40.327Z
blackgreen
<p>Is 等等 pronounced:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>deng2deng0 (2nd tone and neutral) like 老子、孔子</p>
</blockquote>
<p>OR</p>
<blockquote>
<p>deng3 deng0 (3rd tone and neutral) like 椅子、法子</p>
</blockquote>

<pronunciation><tones><sandhi>
What is the proper pronunciation of 等等？
# What is the proper pronunciation of 等等？

(Asked by: username_0 on 2021-03-14)

Is 等等 pronounced:

> deng2deng0 (2nd tone and neutral) like 老子、孔子

OR

> deng3 deng0 (3rd tone and neutral) like 椅子、法子

**Tags:** pronunciation, tones, sandhi


---

## 2 answers

### Answer by username_3 on 2021-03-14. Score: 3 | Accepted answer

It's pronounced

> deng2deng**3**

as in the typical tonal sandhi of two consecutive 3rd tones, like 老板 (lao2ban3).

However I wouldn't outright exclude your first suggestion *deng2deng0*, as it might be pronounced like that in fast speech, or in the middle of a sentence.

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: So if it's pronounced deng2deng3, then deng2 is higher than deng3, but if it's said like deng2 deng0, is deng2 still higher than deng0? Another good example is 宝宝 I always thought it was bao2bao3 but I always hear it spoken like bao3bao0 (bao3 being lower than bao0)  
> **username_3**: @username_0 to understand the pitch of the fifth tone you can search "tone contours" graphics. A full explanation is kind of long for a comment. Anyway, yes deng2 is higher than deng0  

---

### Answer by username_1 on 2021-03-16. Score: 4

This is a difficult problem to address, because 等等 apparently fits one of the criteria for neutral tone, but at the same time there is tone sandhi for two conjoint third-tone words. The following attempts to resolve the conflict between the two rules:

**The pronunciation of `33` words**

0. In my explanation below, I use `1` through `4` to indicate the first to fourth tones respectively, `0` to indicate the fifth or neutral tone, `X > Y` to indicate an alteration in tone from pattern `X` to `Y`, and tone letters `˩ ˨ ˧ ˦ ˥`, five-levelled, arranged from lowest to highest here, to describe the pitch change within a particular tone.
1. If the second third-tone character is *justified* to be pronounced in the neutral tone, then the first third-tone character remains pronounced in the third-tone, i.e. `33 > 30`. Justifications for neutral tone may be of one of the following types:

* 寶寶, 姐姐: they are words formed by reduplication (重疊).
* 椅子, 法子, 影子: they are formed by the suffix (詞綴) ～子, which is arguably diminutive and duly reflected in its pronunciation.
* 打點: to contrast polysemy, especially in mainland Mandarin. `dǎ dian` means to organise things or to get ready, but `dǎ diǎn > dá diǎn` literally means the clock strikes a certain time. In general, *figurative* meanings are marked by a neutral tone, but not so in *literal* meanings.
* 耳朵, 馬虎: by convention, including Taiwanese Mandarin (which is akin to `33 > 31` instead of `33 > 30`).

2. Notable exceptions (i.e. those that still follow tone sandhi `33 > 23` despite apparently fitting the listed criteria for neutral tone)

* 裊裊 `niǎo niǎo`, 緊緊, 等等: reduplicated words that are adverbial or adjectival.
* 每每 (every time), 秒秒 (every second), 種種 (every kind): words that mean 'every sth.' (equivalent to 每～, as in 每秒, 每種). In these words, there is something more than mere character redundancy.
* 汩汩 `gǔ gǔ`: reduplicated words that are onomatopoeic.
* 孔子, 老子: 子 here is not a diminutive suffix but a meaningful character in itself (an honorary title for the philosophical greats).
* 嘴裏, 手裏: directional complements such as ～裏 are usually a good justification to be pronounced in the neutral tone (e.g., 心裏 `xīn lǐ > xīn li`, 海上 `hǎi shàng > hǎi shang`). However, it seems more natural to pronounce `33` ～裏 words as `23` or `20` instead of `30`.
* Most words in 1., but read in Taiwanese Mandarin.

3. Saying `33 > 23` words are pronounced like `33 > 23 > 20` is a dangerous metaphor. That is because the second third-tone is not tone*less* (`0`) per se (unless it is well justified, as in 1.; 等等 is not). Besides, this analogy complicates things. At most, we can only say the 'tail' of the pitch `˨ ˩ ˦` in the third tone is discarded, becoming `˨ ˩`, and that is not limited to conjoint third-tone words. Even a word as simple as 我 `wǒ ˨ ˩ ˦ > ˨ ˩` can behave like that in a spoken sentence.
4. A simple explanation of the pitch of the neutral tone is given by the syllabus of Putonghua Proficiency Test (普通話水平測試實施綱要) (p. 35):

* When the neutral tone follows the third tone, it takes on a slightly *higher* pitch. (The pitch of the third tone is low enough; one then raises the pitch of the neutral tone that follows to differentiate between the two.)
* This is in contrast to the neutral tone's taking on a slightly *lower* pitch when it follows the first (e.g. 媽媽), second (e.g. 玩啊), or fourth tone (e.g. 去吧).

> **Comments:**
> **username_2**: Lots of useful information here! Just a few small comments however. A) in #1, it seems that the 5 folllowing bullet points list some different possible "justifications". Is this an exhaustive list? Rather than "for example", maybe you could put "Justifications may be of one of the following types:", or "Justifications must be of …". B) Point #5 is perhaps a little bit off topic, but for me at least it's a handy reminder. I think it's a better explanation than the other one on SE: https://chinese.stackexchange.com/questions/21395/generalize-consecutive-third-tones-change-rule  
> **username_1**: 1. Zhang Bennan & Yang Ruowei (2007). [普通話連讀音變]. Hong Kong: Commercial Press. 2. Lu Yunzhong (1995). [普通話的輕聲和兒化]. Hong Kong: Commercial Press.  
> **username_1**: A): My list is not absolutely exhaustive. For example: 裁縫 as a noun (tailor) is pronounced `cái feng` but `cái féng` as a verb (to sew). Zhang and Yang (2007:86) argues when the verb 避諱 (to taboo) is intransitive, it is pronounced as `bì hui`, but `bì huǐ` when transitive. These are not polysemous but are still distinguished by the neutral tone. `33` examples of this category may exist. My approach was instead first referencing the works of Lu (1995:24-28) (cited in section 3.2 of this report: https://bit.ly/3vtYv0S) - reasonably authoritative - then coming up with just `33` examples.  
> **username_2**: Two more comments. 1) it's not clear to me why the section #5 is hidden in a "spoiler" section. 2) the tone letters "merge" on my PC but not on my Android phone. But when a space is added between them I seem them as distinct symbols. Eg here I see 3 symbols:  ˩ ˨ ˧, where here I see one symbol  ˩˨˧, a bit like a "y" upside down. Maybe it would improve your answer to add spaces in between these characters. (I could do that for you as an edit, if you like, it should be fairly easy for me via a regular expression search/replace. Let me know...)  
> **username_1**: Thanks for your suggestions; I've edited them myself. (I think the tone letters are supposed to merge, but to be consistent I've followed your advice and added spaces in between)  
> **username_2**: Thanks for your detailed, high quality answer! // Just in case, I would like to point you to another question I asked 6 years ago, that never got a good answer. I've more or less found out my own answer(s) to this topic but I never yet got round to writing them up. (In any case my answers to this question are likely never going to be authoritative.) Perhaps you may have some time to look at it? Thanks. https://chinese.stackexchange.com/questions/14826/words-where-it-is-important-to-distinguish-between-the-neutral-tone-and-the-cita  
> **username_2**: Let us [continue this discussion in chat](https://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/120929/discussion-between-username_2-and-username_1).  

---

