<p>Updates. I made some revisions since this answer is accepted, however the former version is not very precise and comprehensive.</p>
<p>Firstly, what &quot;兹&quot; refers to was not precise enough in the former version. A more reasonable interpretation is (極)其言兹 + 若人之儔, where &quot;兹&quot; indicates 言, the words 黔婁之妻 say. The copula, &quot;is/isn't&quot;, is ommited. As a result, 兹 goes to 言, 若 goes to 人, there's no repetition. Credits to answers by @水巷孑蠻 @TheSilhouette and @Pedroski.</p>
<p>Secondly, I recognize that the original interpretation from the OP is <strong>also</strong> reasonable, thanks to @r13. By splitting under &quot;極其言+兹若人之儔+乎&quot; rather than &quot;極其言兹+若人之儔&quot;, the translation comes to</p>
<blockquote>
<p>a.極其言+b.<em>兹</em><strong>若人</strong>之儔+c.乎？</p>
<p>a.Examing this (quote of 黔婁's wife), +</p>
<p>b.(isn't) <em>this person</em> the same kind of <strong>such person</strong> +</p>
<p><em>(↑which refers to 五柳先生 now)</em>, <strong>(↑which refers to 黔婁, whom the quote describes)</strong></p>
<p>c.&lt;ending particle&gt;?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>There seems to be a cognitive bias in the article among regions. From what I was taught in <a href="https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E4%BA%94%E6%9F%B3%E5%85%88%E7%94%9F%E4%BC%A0/9503604?fr=ge_ala" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Simplified Chinese</a>, &quot;其言兹若人之俦乎&quot;, not a single verb appears, &quot;其言兹+若人之俦&quot; is more reasonable. From what the OP provided, there is a verb 極 at the first. I suppose what I found in <a href="https://drive.google.com/file/d/1F4jShV4yTMoSIluXW7UQAh2rEbXPr8c0/view" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Traditional Chinese</a> from <a href="https://www.crealife.us/jyreading/junior" rel="nofollow noreferrer">this website</a>  is another commonly accepted version. The material splits under &quot;極其言,兹若人之儔乎&quot;.</p>
<hr />
<blockquote>
<p>其言+兹+若人之儔+乎？</p>
<p>Perhaps talks about + this + kind of such person (which is 五柳先生) + &lt;ending particle&gt;?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>What not clear is that 兹 seems repeated to 若. But its 文言文 so 兹若人 might be acceptable hundreds of years ago? I remembered this article from my high school class, but not 100% sure about the specific translation.
After looking around in Chinese website, I prefer the translation above.</p>
<p>However I do NOT think &quot;茲 = 五柳先生 若 = 像 人 = person, specifically pointing to 黔婁&quot; is proper. Note that 五柳先生=陶淵明, which is the writer <strong>himself</strong>.</p>
<p>Following your interpretation, 兹 = this (若人之儔) and 若人 = such person. A proper translation for &quot;兹若人之儔&quot; might be &quot;such kind of person&quot; for clarity, just as I found:
<a href="https://www.arteducation.com.tw/shiwenv_1d296ceb44c3.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">1.這話大概說的是五柳先生這一類的人吧？</a> a modern translation in a Traditional Chinese website. Similar translation could be found in this <a href="https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Qy4y1c7FJ/?share_source=copy_web&amp;vd_source=374353de7a58f8f9cc7077cfc744dee2&amp;t=670" rel="nofollow noreferrer">2.video material</a>, which speaks Chinese.
<a href="https://ruqintravel.com/chinese/ruqinenglish/man-of-five-willows/" rel="nofollow noreferrer">3.Is this a fitting epithet for a man like him (五柳先生)？</a> not a wory-by-word translation, from a travel agency maybe?</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-20T21:30:28.837Z
陶淵明(the writer)自誇: "這話大概說的是五柳先生(陶淵明)這一類的人吧?"? 陶淵明指的是"類似黔婁(道家隱士)一般的人吧!".
r13
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-21T04:47:40.860Z
@r13 I've updated my post, thanks for your comment ^w^.
zrsammy
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-20T02:41:25.037Z
2024-12-21T04:46:43.060Z
2024-12-21T04:46:43.060Z
zrsammy
<p>edited. i found that the legend / folklore of 黔婁 is quoted from <a href="https://ctext.org/lie-nv-zhuan/lu-qian-lou-qi/zh?searchu=%E4%B8%8D%E6%88%9A%E6%88%9A%E6%96%BC%E8%B2%A7%E8%B3%A4%E4%B8%8D&amp;searchmode=showall#result" rel="nofollow noreferrer">列女傳 魯黔婁妻</a></p>
<p>first of all, the text of the provided wiki link is different from <a href="https://archive.org/details/06050930.cn" rel="nofollow noreferrer">四庫全書 陶淵明集 卷五</a>, page 66-67 of the pdf file</p>
<blockquote>
<p>黔婁有言・不戚戚於貧賤・不汲汲於富貴・其言茲・若人之儔乎・酬觴賦詩・以樂其志・無懷氏之民歟・葛天氏之民歟</p>
</blockquote>
<p>[the legned] of 黔婁 had the saying (有言): “不戚戚於貧賤・不汲汲於富貴”</p>
<p>the saying [of 列女傳 魯黔婁] (其言) [about] these (茲) [two behaviours]</p>
<p>[doesn’t mr 五柳] like (若) a companion of him? (人之儔) [人 refer to 黔婁] [乎 is an ending particle, indicating an query]</p>
<blockquote>
<p>how do you make the connection between 這個 and 五柳先生? Just like in English its very hard to say &quot;this/that&quot; means a person</p>
</blockquote>
<p>think it in steps, even using the wiki version:</p>
<ul>
<li>茲 refer to these two behaviour (不戚戚於貧賤・不汲汲於富貴)</li>
<li>人之儔 read as “a companion of a person”, first, one find out who is the person (黔婁 here)</li>
<li>若人之儔, 若 means like, the subject is omitted</li>
</ul>
<p>however, one can only conclude the subject is mr 五柳, following the text</p>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/tCxxxgfy.jpg" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/tCxxxgfy.jpg" alt="enter image description here" /></a></p>
<p>have fun :)</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-20T17:45:27.777Z
Can I understand this as: "黔婁説過. 不戚戚於貧賤・不汲汲於富貴, 他説的這些(其言茲)就像(若)他自己的翻版(人之儔)啊"?
r13
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-21T07:15:18.187Z
@r13, precisely, read it as: [the legned] of 黔婁 had the saying (有言): “不戚戚於貧賤・不汲汲於富貴”, that, the saying [of 列女傳 魯黔婁] (其言) [about] these (茲) [two behaviours]
水巷孑蠻
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-20T02:09:47.783Z
2024-12-21T07:09:45.977Z
2024-12-21T07:09:45.977Z
水巷孑蠻
<p>It is quite normal in English to refer to a person using <em>this</em> or <em>that</em>:</p>
<p>This is my wife, that is my sister.</p>
<p>黔婁之妻有言：「不戚戚於貧賤，不汲汲於富貴。」極其言，茲若人之儔乎？酣觴賦詩，以樂其志。無懷氏之民歟！葛天氏之民歟！</p>
<p>俦：who 表示疑问，相当于“谁”</p>
<p>極其言，茲若人之儔乎？<br />
finally it says, this kind of people who are they?</p>
<p>黔婁之妻有言：<br />
黔娄的妻子曾经说过：<br />
黔娄's wife once said:</p>
<p>不戚戚於貧賤，<br />
“不为贫贱而忧愁，<br />
&quot;Not worried about being poor and lowly,</p>
<p>不汲汲於富貴。<br />
不热衷于发财做官。<br />
not obsessed with getting rich or becoming an official.</p>
<p>極其言，茲若人之儔乎？<br />
这话大概说的是五柳先生这一类的人吧？<br />
Don't these words describe people like 五柳先生?</p>
<p>酣觴賦詩，<br />
一边喝酒一边作诗，因为自己抱定的志向而感到无比的快乐。<br />
On the one hand drinking wine, on the other hand writing poetry,</p>
<p>以樂其志。<br />
因为自己抱定的志向而感到无比的快乐。<br />
because (such people) hold fast to their aspirations they feel incomparably happy.</p>
<p>無懷氏之民歟！<br />
不知道他是无怀氏时代的人呢？<br />
I am not sure if he (五柳先生) was from the 无怀 people's era,</p>
<p>葛天氏之民歟！<br />
还是葛天氏时代的人呢？<br />
Maybe (he was) 葛天 people's era.&quot;</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-20T05:56:34.153Z
2024-12-20T05:56:34.153Z
Pedroski
<p>To add even more confusion, the phrase 若人 actually means &quot;this person&quot;, but not &quot;similar to person&quot;. The word 若 means &quot;this&quot;. For example, in the Analects:</p>
<p>子謂子賤，「君子哉若人！魯無君子者，斯焉取斯？」
若人 means 子賤</p>
<p>and another example from the same book:</p>
<p>...夫子不答，南宮适出。子曰：「君子哉若人！尚德哉若人！」</p>
<p>so 若人 means 南宮适.</p>
<p>In 五柳先生傳, 若人 means 黔婁.</p>
<p>So do we have two &quot;this&quot;? In this case, I will interpret (this is just my interpretation) 茲 as a connective that means like &quot;by this&quot;. The sentence becomes:</p>
<p>by this (the account of 黔婁's wife), (isn't 五柳先生) the same kind of people as 黔婁?</p>
<p>Most translation I see just do not translate 茲, which baffles me a lot.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-20T02:14:08.320Z
2024-12-20T02:15:16.740Z
2024-12-20T02:15:16.740Z
TheSilhouette
<p>Source of text (五柳先生傳):</p>
<p><a href="https://zh.wikisource.org/zh-hant/%E4%BA%94%E6%9F%B3%E5%85%88%E7%94%9F%E5%82%B3" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://zh.wikisource.org/zh-hant/%E4%BA%94%E6%9F%B3%E5%85%88%E7%94%9F%E5%82%B3</a></p>
<p>My question is about this particular line: 茲若人之儔乎？ near the end of the text.</p>
<p>From looking around, the explanation is the following.</p>
<p>茲 = 五柳先生
若 = 像
人 = person, specifically pointing to 黔婁
之儔 = 的同類
乎 = ending particle</p>
<p>I'm confused about 茲. Many dictionaries say it is a pronoun meaning 此 or 這個. Now I can see the sentence meaning 這個/此 像黔婁的同類吧, but how do you make the connection between 這個 and 五柳先生? Just like in English its very hard to say &quot;this/that&quot; means a person. Thanks for the help.</p>

<meaning>
Question about sentence in 五柳先生傳
# Question about sentence in 五柳先生傳

(Asked by: username_0 on 2024-12-19)

Source of text (五柳先生傳):

<https://zh.wikisource.org/zh-hant/%E4%BA%94%E6%9F%B3%E5%85%88%E7%94%9F%E5%82%B3>

My question is about this particular line: 茲若人之儔乎？ near the end of the text.

From looking around, the explanation is the following.

茲 = 五柳先生
若 = 像
人 = person, specifically pointing to 黔婁
之儔 = 的同類
乎 = ending particle

I'm confused about 茲. Many dictionaries say it is a pronoun meaning 此 or 這個. Now I can see the sentence meaning 這個/此 像黔婁的同類吧, but how do you make the connection between 這個 and 五柳先生? Just like in English its very hard to say "this/that" means a person. Thanks for the help.

**Tags:** meaning


---

## 4 answers

### Answer by username_1 on 2024-12-20. Score: 1 | Accepted answer

Updates. I made some revisions since this answer is accepted, however the former version is not very precise and comprehensive.

Firstly, what "兹" refers to was not precise enough in the former version. A more reasonable interpretation is (極)其言兹 + 若人之儔, where "兹" indicates 言, the words 黔婁之妻 say. The copula, "is/isn't", is ommited. As a result, 兹 goes to 言, 若 goes to 人, there's no repetition. Credits to answers by @username_3 @username_5 and @username_4.

Secondly, I recognize that the original interpretation from the OP is **also** reasonable, thanks to @username_2. By splitting under "極其言+兹若人之儔+乎" rather than "極其言兹+若人之儔", the translation comes to

> a.極其言+b.*兹***若人**之儔+c.乎？
>
> a.Examing this (quote of 黔婁's wife), +
>
> b.(isn't) *this person* the same kind of **such person** +
>
> *(↑which refers to 五柳先生 now)*, **(↑which refers to 黔婁, whom the quote describes)**
>
> c.<ending particle>?

There seems to be a cognitive bias in the article among regions. From what I was taught in [Simplified Chinese](https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E4%BA%94%E6%9F%B3%E5%85%88%E7%94%9F%E4%BC%A0/9503604?fr=ge_ala), "其言兹若人之俦乎", not a single verb appears, "其言兹+若人之俦" is more reasonable. From what the OP provided, there is a verb 極 at the first. I suppose what I found in [Traditional Chinese](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1F4jShV4yTMoSIluXW7UQAh2rEbXPr8c0/view) from [this website](https://www.crealife.us/jyreading/junior) is another commonly accepted version. The material splits under "極其言,兹若人之儔乎".

---

> 其言+兹+若人之儔+乎？
>
> Perhaps talks about + this + kind of such person (which is 五柳先生) + <ending particle>?

What not clear is that 兹 seems repeated to 若. But its 文言文 so 兹若人 might be acceptable hundreds of years ago? I remembered this article from my high school class, but not 100% sure about the specific translation.
After looking around in Chinese website, I prefer the translation above.

However I do NOT think "茲 = 五柳先生 若 = 像 人 = person, specifically pointing to 黔婁" is proper. Note that 五柳先生=陶淵明, which is the writer **himself**.

Following your interpretation, 兹 = this (若人之儔) and 若人 = such person. A proper translation for "兹若人之儔" might be "such kind of person" for clarity, just as I found:
[1.這話大概說的是五柳先生這一類的人吧？](https://www.arteducation.com.tw/shiwenv_1d296ceb44c3.html) a modern translation in a Traditional Chinese website. Similar translation could be found in this [2.video material](https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Qy4y1c7FJ/?share_source=copy_web&vd_source=374353de7a58f8f9cc7077cfc744dee2&t=670), which speaks Chinese.
[3.Is this a fitting epithet for a man like him (五柳先生)？](https://ruqintravel.com/chinese/ruqinenglish/man-of-five-willows/) not a wory-by-word translation, from a travel agency maybe?

> **Comments:**
> **username_2**: 陶淵明(the writer)自誇: "這話大概說的是五柳先生(陶淵明)這一類的人吧?"? 陶淵明指的是"類似黔婁(道家隱士)一般的人吧!".  
> **username_1**: @username_2 I've updated my post, thanks for your comment ^w^.  

---

### Answer by username_3 on 2024-12-20. Score: 2

edited. i found that the legend / folklore of 黔婁 is quoted from [列女傳 魯黔婁妻](https://ctext.org/lie-nv-zhuan/lu-qian-lou-qi/zh?searchu=%E4%B8%8D%E6%88%9A%E6%88%9A%E6%96%BC%E8%B2%A7%E8%B3%A4%E4%B8%8D&searchmode=showall#result)

first of all, the text of the provided wiki link is different from [四庫全書 陶淵明集 卷五](https://archive.org/details/06050930.cn), page 66-67 of the pdf file

> 黔婁有言・不戚戚於貧賤・不汲汲於富貴・其言茲・若人之儔乎・酬觴賦詩・以樂其志・無懷氏之民歟・葛天氏之民歟

[the legned] of 黔婁 had the saying (有言): “不戚戚於貧賤・不汲汲於富貴”

the saying [of 列女傳 魯黔婁] (其言) [about] these (茲) [two behaviours]

[doesn’t mr 五柳] like (若) a companion of him? (人之儔) [人 refer to 黔婁] [乎 is an ending particle, indicating an query]

> how do you make the connection between 這個 and 五柳先生? Just like in English its very hard to say "this/that" means a person

think it in steps, even using the wiki version:

* 茲 refer to these two behaviour (不戚戚於貧賤・不汲汲於富貴)
* 人之儔 read as “a companion of a person”, first, one find out who is the person (黔婁 here)
* 若人之儔, 若 means like, the subject is omitted

however, one can only conclude the subject is mr 五柳, following the text

[![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/tCxxxgfy.jpg)](https://i.sstatic.net/tCxxxgfy.jpg)

have fun :)

> **Comments:**
> **username_2**: Can I understand this as: "黔婁説過. 不戚戚於貧賤・不汲汲於富貴, 他説的這些(其言茲)就像(若)他自己的翻版(人之儔)啊"?  
> **username_3**: @username_2, precisely, read it as: [the legned] of 黔婁 had the saying (有言): “不戚戚於貧賤・不汲汲於富貴”, that, the saying [of 列女傳 魯黔婁] (其言) [about] these (茲) [two behaviours]  

---

### Answer by username_4 on 2024-12-20. Score: 0

It is quite normal in English to refer to a person using *this* or *that*:

This is my wife, that is my sister.

黔婁之妻有言：「不戚戚於貧賤，不汲汲於富貴。」極其言，茲若人之儔乎？酣觴賦詩，以樂其志。無懷氏之民歟！葛天氏之民歟！

俦：who 表示疑问，相当于“谁”

極其言，茲若人之儔乎？  
finally it says, this kind of people who are they?

黔婁之妻有言：  
黔娄的妻子曾经说过：  
黔娄's wife once said:

不戚戚於貧賤，  
“不为贫贱而忧愁，  
"Not worried about being poor and lowly,

不汲汲於富貴。  
不热衷于发财做官。  
not obsessed with getting rich or becoming an official.

極其言，茲若人之儔乎？  
这话大概说的是五柳先生这一类的人吧？  
Don't these words describe people like 五柳先生?

酣觴賦詩，  
一边喝酒一边作诗，因为自己抱定的志向而感到无比的快乐。  
On the one hand drinking wine, on the other hand writing poetry,

以樂其志。  
因为自己抱定的志向而感到无比的快乐。  
because (such people) hold fast to their aspirations they feel incomparably happy.

無懷氏之民歟！  
不知道他是无怀氏时代的人呢？  
I am not sure if he (五柳先生) was from the 无怀 people's era,

葛天氏之民歟！  
还是葛天氏时代的人呢？  
Maybe (he was) 葛天 people's era."


---

### Answer by username_5 on 2024-12-20. Score: 0

To add even more confusion, the phrase 若人 actually means "this person", but not "similar to person". The word 若 means "this". For example, in the Analects:

子謂子賤，「君子哉若人！魯無君子者，斯焉取斯？」
若人 means 子賤

and another example from the same book:

...夫子不答，南宮适出。子曰：「君子哉若人！尚德哉若人！」

so 若人 means 南宮适.

In 五柳先生傳, 若人 means 黔婁.

So do we have two "this"? In this case, I will interpret (this is just my interpretation) 茲 as a connective that means like "by this". The sentence becomes:

by this (the account of 黔婁's wife), (isn't 五柳先生) the same kind of people as 黔婁?

Most translation I see just do not translate 茲, which baffles me a lot.


---

