<p>弟 is a 通假字, it should be 悌 nowadays.</p>

<p>In ancient, the number of characters is less than today. These people sometimes have to borrow the meaning from another character.   </p>

<p>孝: be good to your parents
悌: be good to your brothers and sisters</p>

<p>If one be good to your parents, brothers and sisters, the one probably would not against higher,  if he never against higher, he would not rise in rebellion.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-08-07T05:33:53.917Z
2017-08-07T05:33:53.917Z
sfy
<p>孝弟= 孝悌 (filial piety and brotherly)</p>
<p>孝悌 was originally written as 孝弟 in ancient time. The ' 心 (heart)' radical was added  later around the Eastern Han Dynasty period.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Reference: <a href="https://www.zhihu.com/question/24303512" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://www.zhihu.com/question/24303512</a></p>
</blockquote>
<p>Being 'filial piety and fraternal' was the hallmark of an 'upstanding, decent person' in traditional Chinese culture (a Confucian philosophy). Therefore, translate 孝弟 as &quot;being a good citizen&quot; is within reason in this context.</p>
<blockquote>
<p><a href="http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/dictionary/characters/8835/" rel="nofollow noreferrer">悌</a>: <em>brotherly, respectful</em></p>
<p><a href="https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E5%AD%9D%E6%82%8C" rel="nofollow noreferrer">孝悌</a> <em>孝，指对父母还报的爱; 悌，指兄弟姊妹的友爱</em></p>
<p><em>(孝 refers to filial piety; 悌 refers to the fraternity of brothers and sisters)</em></p>
</blockquote>

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2017-08-07T05:10:33.703Z
2017-08-07T05:21:38.887Z
2020-06-17T09:50:11.587Z
Tang Ho
<p>in short, 弟 is fraternal; translated as "a good citizen" is, imo, <strong>incorrect</strong>.</p>

<p>in long, i would inteprete the sentence:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>有子曰﹒其為人也﹒孝弟而好犯上者﹒鮮矣﹒不好犯上而好作亂者﹒未之有也</p>
</blockquote>

<p>as a human being (其為人也), someone (者) who is filial (孝), fraternal (弟), and (而) prefer (好) against authority (犯上), it's rare (鮮矣). </p>

<p>that, 孝 (filial), is 善事父母 (performing one's duty as a son), while 弟 (fraternal) is 善事兄長 (performing one's duty as a younger sibling; and to perform well.</p>

<p>therefore, a children would internalise a submissive attitude, which would be obedient toward parents, older siblings in family; afterward, they would conform to the authorities in society.</p>

<p>that's the norm of confucian.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-08-07T10:11:01.593Z
Why do you think it got translated as “a good citizen” then?
Mou某
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-08-07T10:38:22.527Z
well, in the preface of mr gu's book, it's stated "to take away as much as possible the sense of strangeness and peculiarity for the English readers, we have, whenever it is possible to do so, eliminated all Chinese proper names." 　 such translation is for english readers without knowledge of chinese, nor confucian.
水巷孑蠻
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-08-07T12:48:46.507Z
Yeah, I get that - i just figured he must have his reasons for such an **extended** meaning.
Mou某
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-08-07T12:53:47.153Z
another example of "to translate is to betray" :-)
水巷孑蠻
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2017-08-07T18:59:18.140Z
@水巷孑蠻 Ironically, that's a translation of an Italian saying :-p
Stumpy Joe Pete
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2017-08-07T19:17:38.953Z
bien sûr lah, traduttore traditore :)
水巷孑蠻
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2017-08-07T10:00:00.803Z
2017-08-07T10:00:00.803Z
水巷孑蠻
<p>Chapter two of <a href="https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E5%AD%A6%E8%80%8C/6708208?fr=aladdin" rel="nofollow noreferrer">學而</a>:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>有子曰：「其為人也孝弟，而好犯上者，鮮矣；不好犯上，而好作亂者，未之有也。君子務本，本立而道生。孝弟也者，其為仁之本與！」</p>
</blockquote>

<p>弟 <a href="https://archive.org/stream/TheDiscoursesAndSayingsOfConfucius/The_Discourses_and_Sayings_of_Confucius_djvu.txt" rel="nofollow noreferrer">is translated by Gu Hongming</a> as:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>a good citizen</p>
</blockquote>

<p>the footnote translates it back into Chinese as:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>做一個好公民</p>
</blockquote>

<p><a href="http://ctext.org/analects/xue-er" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Legg's translation</a> of 弟 is:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>fraternal</p>
</blockquote>

<p>Is it just an extension of this <em>fraternal</em> duty that Gu takes to mean "a good citizen"? or what?</p>

<translation>
Why does Gu Hongming translate 弟 as "be a good citizen" (做个好公民)?
# Why does Gu Hongming translate 弟 as "be a good citizen" (做个好公民)?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2017-08-07)

Chapter two of [學而](https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E5%AD%A6%E8%80%8C/6708208?fr=aladdin):

> 有子曰：「其為人也孝弟，而好犯上者，鮮矣；不好犯上，而好作亂者，未之有也。君子務本，本立而道生。孝弟也者，其為仁之本與！」

弟 [is translated by Gu Hongming](https://archive.org/stream/TheDiscoursesAndSayingsOfConfucius/The_Discourses_and_Sayings_of_Confucius_djvu.txt) as:

> a good citizen

the footnote translates it back into Chinese as:

> 做一個好公民

[Legg's translation](http://ctext.org/analects/xue-er) of 弟 is:

> fraternal

Is it just an extension of this *fraternal* duty that Gu takes to mean "a good citizen"? or what?

**Tags:** translation


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## 3 answers

### Answer by username_1 on 2017-08-07. Score: 1 | Accepted answer

弟 is a 通假字, it should be 悌 nowadays.

In ancient, the number of characters is less than today. These people sometimes have to borrow the meaning from another character.

孝: be good to your parents
悌: be good to your brothers and sisters

If one be good to your parents, brothers and sisters, the one probably would not against higher, if he never against higher, he would not rise in rebellion.


---

### Answer by username_2 on 2017-08-07. Score: 0

孝弟= 孝悌 (filial piety and brotherly)

孝悌 was originally written as 孝弟 in ancient time. The ' 心 (heart)' radical was added later around the Eastern Han Dynasty period.

> Reference: <https://www.zhihu.com/question/24303512>

Being 'filial piety and fraternal' was the hallmark of an 'upstanding, decent person' in traditional Chinese culture (a Confucian philosophy). Therefore, translate 孝弟 as "being a good citizen" is within reason in this context.

> [悌](http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/dictionary/characters/8835/): *brotherly, respectful*
>
> [孝悌](https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E5%AD%9D%E6%82%8C) *孝，指对父母还报的爱; 悌，指兄弟姊妹的友爱*
>
> *(孝 refers to filial piety; 悌 refers to the fraternity of brothers and sisters)*


---

### Answer by username_3 on 2017-08-07. Score: 0

in short, 弟 is fraternal; translated as "a good citizen" is, imo, **incorrect**.

in long, i would inteprete the sentence:

> 有子曰﹒其為人也﹒孝弟而好犯上者﹒鮮矣﹒不好犯上而好作亂者﹒未之有也

as a human being (其為人也), someone (者) who is filial (孝), fraternal (弟), and (而) prefer (好) against authority (犯上), it's rare (鮮矣).

that, 孝 (filial), is 善事父母 (performing one's duty as a son), while 弟 (fraternal) is 善事兄長 (performing one's duty as a younger sibling; and to perform well.

therefore, a children would internalise a submissive attitude, which would be obedient toward parents, older siblings in family; afterward, they would conform to the authorities in society.

that's the norm of confucian.

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Why do you think it got translated as “a good citizen” then?  
> **username_3**: well, in the preface of mr gu's book, it's stated "to take away as much as possible the sense of strangeness and peculiarity for the English readers, we have, whenever it is possible to do so, eliminated all Chinese proper names." 　 such translation is for english readers without knowledge of chinese, nor confucian.  
> **username_0**: Yeah, I get that - i just figured he must have his reasons for such an **extended** meaning.  
> **username_3**: another example of "to translate is to betray" :-)  
> **username_4**: @username_3 Ironically, that's a translation of an Italian saying :-p  
> **username_3**: bien sûr lah, traduttore traditore :)  

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