<p>canton, as a province, is big, that there’re regional subtle varieties. in the past, the spoken language (廣府話) of the the old city area of canton (廣州市老城區) is considered the purest, most prestige cantonese.</p>
<p>there was a book named <a href="https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%88%86%E9%9F%BB%E6%92%AE%E8%A6%81" rel="nofollow noreferrer">分韻撮要</a> indictaed that “柯” without a k initials</p>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/bynVU.jpg" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/bynVU.jpg" alt="enter image description here" /></a></p>
<p>some argued that the author used a regional dialect (南海順德的方音), not the purest cantonese (廣府話)</p>
<p>or, it reflected the change of pronunciation started at least in 17th century</p>
<p>have fun :)</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-12-16T02:49:09.527Z
Thanks for the image from 分韻撮要, but I only see the definition there, and it's under the section for 科, which in Cantonese has a f- initial. So does the source show somehow that it has a null initial?
jogloran
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-12-16T03:18:02.470Z
@jogloran, the 分韻撮要 does not use 反切, it just grouped together characters with the same syllable (小韻); by comparing the grouped characters, one can find that  “柯” has  a null initials. about “科”, well, all sections need a character to represent the  finals, don’t fixate on the initial of  the character of each section  
水巷孑蠻
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-12-16T03:42:47.297Z
Ohhh, of course. It’s indexed by the finals.
jogloran
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-12-16T02:40:18.583Z
2023-12-16T02:40:18.583Z
水巷孑蠻
<p>廣東話 has many many many differences from middle chinese, and this is just one small one.</p>
<p>I don't know if there is any evidence to suggest 柯 ever had a k initial in 廣東話.  If it did, it was probably lost before the 18th century-- in this time since then you pretty much only see k initial addressed as merging with kw initial.  I have never seen any discussion of k initial dropping off (including a search I just did). In fact a study done in 1999 《香港粤语中声母及韵尾辅音之变化与变异》specifically points out how k initial has been resistant to change (along with others) before diving into a study of those percieved to be changing (such as kw, ng, etc etc etc).</p>
<p>Of course, that doesn't mean it hasn't happened.  But like everything historical you mostly have records to go off of, or its a wild goose chase.  水巷子蠻 posts another really good example of it very possibly always being absent in cantonese as we know it. Again if it was at one point present we have no strong evidence of it currently.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-12-16T15:40:41.673Z
2023-12-16T15:40:41.673Z
zagrycha
<p>The problem with Middle Chinese reconstructions is you don't actually know how various characters were pronounced. It's not exactly like they had tape recordings.</p>
<p>To me it's just varying degree of wild guesses.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-12-21T03:32:44.163Z
Hmm, I didn't downvote you, but your answer suggests you don't know too much about how reconstruction actually works. The whole point is to determine rules, which when played back in reverse from multiple known languages, result in the same original forms. The alternative to doing this (admittedly theoretical) work is to throw up your hands in ignorance and say we will never know anything at all.
jogloran
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-12-21T10:36:11.537Z
I understand how it works, but it doesn't actually work. At least with regards to how the characters were pronounced at various stages of history. You can look at, say, 廣韻 or 集韻, and not get very far. For example, when you look at "東：涷：瀧涷沾漬。《說文》曰：水出發鳩山入於河。又都貢切" it does tell you how to pronounce the character 東 in terms of other characters. It'd helpful if you already knew how to pronounce all those characters, but not helpful otherwise.
fat penguin
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-12-21T01:45:05.930Z
2023-12-21T01:45:05.930Z
fat penguin
<p>The Cantonese reflex for 柯 is o1 (IPA [o˥]). Middle Chinese reconstructions, and in many other topolects, all have a k- initial for this, so what happened in Cantonese?</p>
<p>I'm not aware of any systematic sound change or environment in Cantonese which might condition a sound change like this one.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-12-16T15:55:08.097Z
Isn't it just /ŋ/ ---> /∅/?
Mou某
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-12-17T00:02:48.377Z
I don’t think so. Do you know of any other words with /k/->/ŋ/ initially? If so, please educate us.
jogloran
<linguistics>
Why did the Cantonese 柯 lose its k- initial?
# Why did the Cantonese 柯 lose its k- initial?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2023-12-16)

The Cantonese reflex for 柯 is o1 (IPA [o˥]). Middle Chinese reconstructions, and in many other topolects, all have a k- initial for this, so what happened in Cantonese?

I'm not aware of any systematic sound change or environment in Cantonese which might condition a sound change like this one.

**Tags:** linguistics

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: Isn't it just /ŋ/ ---> /∅/?  
> **username_0**: I don’t think so. Do you know of any other words with /k/->/ŋ/ initially? If so, please educate us.  

---

## 3 answers

### Answer by username_2 on 2023-12-16. Score: 1

canton, as a province, is big, that there’re regional subtle varieties. in the past, the spoken language (廣府話) of the the old city area of canton (廣州市老城區) is considered the purest, most prestige cantonese.

there was a book named [分韻撮要](https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%88%86%E9%9F%BB%E6%92%AE%E8%A6%81) indictaed that “柯” without a k initials

[![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/bynVU.jpg)](https://i.sstatic.net/bynVU.jpg)

some argued that the author used a regional dialect (南海順德的方音), not the purest cantonese (廣府話)

or, it reflected the change of pronunciation started at least in 17th century

have fun :)

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Thanks for the image from 分韻撮要, but I only see the definition there, and it's under the section for 科, which in Cantonese has a f- initial. So does the source show somehow that it has a null initial?  
> **username_2**: @username_0, the 分韻撮要 does not use 反切, it just grouped together characters with the same syllable (小韻); by comparing the grouped characters, one can find that  “柯” has  a null initials. about “科”, well, all sections need a character to represent the  finals, don’t fixate on the initial of  the character of each section    
> **username_0**: Ohhh, of course. It’s indexed by the finals.  

---

### Answer by username_3 on 2023-12-16. Score: 0

廣東話 has many many many differences from middle chinese, and this is just one small one.

I don't know if there is any evidence to suggest 柯 ever had a k initial in 廣東話. If it did, it was probably lost before the 18th century-- in this time since then you pretty much only see k initial addressed as merging with kw initial. I have never seen any discussion of k initial dropping off (including a search I just did). In fact a study done in 1999 《香港粤语中声母及韵尾辅音之变化与变异》specifically points out how k initial has been resistant to change (along with others) before diving into a study of those percieved to be changing (such as kw, ng, etc etc etc).

Of course, that doesn't mean it hasn't happened. But like everything historical you mostly have records to go off of, or its a wild goose chase. 水巷子蠻 posts another really good example of it very possibly always being absent in cantonese as we know it. Again if it was at one point present we have no strong evidence of it currently.


---

### Answer by username_4 on 2023-12-21. Score: -2

The problem with Middle Chinese reconstructions is you don't actually know how various characters were pronounced. It's not exactly like they had tape recordings.

To me it's just varying degree of wild guesses.

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Hmm, I didn't downvote you, but your answer suggests you don't know too much about how reconstruction actually works. The whole point is to determine rules, which when played back in reverse from multiple known languages, result in the same original forms. The alternative to doing this (admittedly theoretical) work is to throw up your hands in ignorance and say we will never know anything at all.  
> **username_4**: I understand how it works, but it doesn't actually work. At least with regards to how the characters were pronounced at various stages of history. You can look at, say, 廣韻 or 集韻, and not get very far. For example, when you look at "東：涷：瀧涷沾漬。《說文》曰：水出發鳩山入於河。又都貢切" it does tell you how to pronounce the character 東 in terms of other characters. It'd helpful if you already knew how to pronounce all those characters, but not helpful otherwise.  

---

