<p><em>I am hardly an expert on this topic. I know basically nothing about Cantonese-influenced Mandarin</em> <strong>per se</strong>, <em>but I'll offer an answer of the variety that I think hippietrail is looking for. Hopefully other people will be like &quot;I now understand what a good answer to this question is supposed to look like, and furthermore, I know more than that idiot Stumpy Joe Pete! I'll answer it!&quot;.</em></p>
<p>As I mentioned in <a href="https://chinese.stackexchange.com/a/2244/788">an answer to a similar question</a>, most southern Mandarin has the characteristic of merging <code>zh</code> <code>ch</code> <code>sh</code> into the <code>z</code> <code>c</code> <code>s</code> series (e.g., &quot;zhi&quot; pronounced as &quot;zi&quot;). Cantonese does this, so I expect HK Mandarin accents to do so.</p>
<p>In Cantonese (among the many many other differences in pronunciation) the <code>g</code> and <code>k</code> are preserved in places where, in Mandarin, they have been palatalized into <code>j</code> and <code>q</code>. For example, 北京 is pronounced &quot;bak1 ging1&quot;. (Aside: this helps to explain the outdated Western spellings of &quot;Beijing&quot; as &quot;Peking&quot; and &quot;Chongqing&quot; as &quot;Chungking&quot;--the <code>q</code>s and <code>j</code>s were originally velar! As for the p/b k/g thing... blame the Europeans.) Sometimes this shows through in people's Mandarin. For instance, some HK classmates of mine mistakenly guessed the pronunciation of 季节 as &quot;gui4jie2&quot; (instead of &quot;ji4jie2&quot;).</p>
<p>It's not only <code>k</code>s and <code>g</code>s that became <code>j</code> and <code>q</code>. There were also fricatives and affricates that palatalized in similar circumstances (before [i]/[j]). See <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Chinese_phonology#From_Late_Middle_Chinese_to_Standard_Mandarin" rel="noreferrer">here</a> and look for the /tɕ/ /tɕʰ/ /ɕ/ parts.</p>
<p>Possibly related to that: I once had a very young student with a rather hilarious Mandarin accent (I don't know if she was a Canto speaker). In at least some circumstances, <code>zhi</code> would become <code>ji</code>, <code>chi</code> would become <code>qi</code>, and <code>shi</code> would become <code>xi</code>. This culminated in her yelling about a spider:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>老师，老师，有蜘蛛啊！</p>
<p>Standard: lao3shi1, lao3shi1, you3 zhi1zhu1 a!</p>
<p>Her: lao3xi1, lao3xi1, you3 ji1zhu1 a!</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I say that it's possibly related, because in Cantonese, 师 = si1 and 蜘 = zi1 (where the i's are actual [i]s! Not like Mandarin!). By analogy to Cantonese words pronounced sik and zik, you would expect the Mandarin to be xi and ji. So, like I said, possibly related.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-07T02:00:30.137Z
I see. Good post! Similar phenomenon with Hokkien speakers (also southern Chinese like Cantonese speakers). They don't distinguish zh/ch/sh from z/c/s. It all sounds like the latter. I don't know if it's out of habit or laziness.
amateur
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-07T02:29:10.003Z
@amateur It's from influence from their native 方言--if the language you grow up speaking doesn't have a particular sound, chances are you'll have trouble producing it when learning another language (or 方言). For example, most English-language learners have trouble with "th" ([ð] and [θ]) so they merge that sound with something else. E.g., [z] and [s], as in, "I sink zis is it", or [d] and [f], as in "I fink dis is it". It's not a personality trait like laziness or something.
Stumpy Joe Pete
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-07T02:39:33.583Z
Forgot to say Taiwan as an example, they already study Mandarin in school but still don't bother to pronounce zh/ch/sh when talking to each other. I say lazy because ex. 什么 becomes "so mo". Also "sheng" becomes "sen" (no h sound, and no g). Oh! And a popular one is 十 and 四 both sound "si" so 十四 and 四十 are "si si" (no idea if 14 or 40!)
amateur
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-07T02:46:55.447Z
Even if they don't speak Hokkien, this is how Taiwan Mandarin is generally spoken from my observation. Maybe Hokkien influenced the way Mandarin is spoken in a informal setting even among non-Hokkien speakers.
amateur
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-07T19:51:52.567Z
@amateur You're saying that if you learn a language in school, and your pronunciation is not perfectly standard, then you're lazy? Should I tell my Chinese coworkers how lazy they are for not pronouncing "th"s as [ð] and [θ]? Maybe I should tell all Americans what lazy bums they are for speaking English with a weird, non-British accent! ...but seriously, I think "lazy" is really, really bad choice of words to describe the phonology of a particular accent or dialect.
Stumpy Joe Pete
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-07T23:38:02.977Z
Cantonese merges the initial consonants of some q- and ch- characters in mandarin, for instance, 窗 and 枪 are homophones in Cantonese. There is a joke saying that a Cantonese was on a train in mainland China. He felt hot and wanted to open the window, so he asked the passenger besides him: "你动不动? 不动我就开枪了". (He meant to say 你冻不冻, 不冻我就开窗了)
user58955
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-08T01:00:41.627Z
@user58955 Great! That's useful information, and it's also a funny joke :)
Stumpy Joe Pete
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-08T01:43:45.977Z
@StumpyJoePete: "the `q`s and `j`s were originally palatal!" -- you mean they were originally velar.
Claw
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-08T04:52:06.200Z
@Claw Good catch. FYI, for things like that, you can directly edit answers.
Stumpy Joe Pete
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-26T09:36:02.763Z
Regarding laziness, I think "relaxed" is a better word when talking about pronunciation. :)
Olle Linge
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-06T18:13:20.597Z
2014-02-08T04:51:37.823Z
2020-06-17T09:50:11.587Z
Stumpy Joe Pete
<p>In Cantonese, N and L are often mutually mixable.  For example, nian2 年 could be like nien or lien.  So when a Canto speakers tries to say it, it could be like nlian2.
Another classic example is 你 which may be nei or lei.<br>
Even more classic is when someone is from 湖南 and we hear they are from 荷兰 but perhaps linguistically HuNan Hua and Canto are similar mixing their Ns and Ls.  </p>

<p>Some cheats for tones like Second tone in Mandarin nearly always is 4th tone (lowest) in Cantonese like 平 or 层. But of course there are tone sandhis like for 楼 (I read that in a <a href="http://rads.stackoverflow.com/amzn/click/962279260X" rel="nofollow">book by Kataoka and Lee</a>).</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-01-30T08:08:34.830Z
2015-01-30T12:48:43.070Z
2015-01-30T12:48:43.070Z
Alex Quan
<p>With Mandarin making more and more in-roads into Cantonese speaking Hong Kong, I'm wondering what characteristics set it apart from Standard Mandarin or other regional Mandarin dialects and/or accents.</p>

<p>I'm not asking so much about native Mandarin speakers that have relocated to Hong Kong. But about Hong Kongers whose first language is Cantonese but also speak fluent Mandarin.</p>

<p>When a Mandarin speaker visits Hong Kong what stands out most?</p>

<p>Other areas where Mandarin is spoken with identifiable regional differences have Wikipedia articles, but Hong Kong does not. Compare the articles on Mandarin in <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singaporean_Mandarin" rel="nofollow">Singapore</a> and <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwanese_Mandarin" rel="nofollow">Taiwan</a> for instance.</p>

<p>(If it is felt that this question would fit in better at linguistics.SE I am not opposed to migrating it there.)</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-06T17:30:19.300Z
I don't know how anyone can answer this question. Hong Kong people speak Mandarin with a Cantonese accent. Easier if you can hear it for yourself. Too troublesome to describe in writing though examples can be given with an idea of how they would pronounce it differently from the standard pronunciation.
amateur
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-06T17:34:20.427Z
I don't know anyone who can answer most of the questions on this site. But thanks to Stack Exchange there are sites where many experts who I do not know congregate and some of those have the answers to questions I am pondering. For easy questions I do not need such a site.
hippietrail
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-06T17:34:25.960Z
Canadian comedian Russell Peters gives a good example of how Mandarin vs. Cantonese sounds. This is also a good example of what you can expect Mandarin to sound like when spoken by a Cantonese native. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL8hV-zjJ_4
amateur
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-06T17:35:51.810Z
@hungerartist: You seem to assume anyone wondering about Hong Kong Mandarin must be familiar with the Mandarin of other Cantonese speakers. I can amend the question to cover all Cantonese speakers but I'm not sure it would be better that way.
hippietrail
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-06T17:44:24.150Z
@hungerartist: Sorry, I've just noticed what seems to be an odd trend on the site of contributors to make posts along the lines of "I'm not interested in your question." / "Your curiosity is misplaced, just be satisfied with Standard Mandarin.", etc type things. I hope it's not a real trend.
hippietrail
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-06T17:51:23.793Z
Pang Ho-cheung speaking Mandarin http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZXo-b9e-f0
amateur
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-06T17:53:04.317Z
Rather than migrate this question to linguistics.SE I'm going to ask it there too. Here's a link in case anybody here is interested in how the responses compare: [What qualities does Hong Kong Mandarin have?](http://linguistics.stackexchange.com/questions/6556)
hippietrail
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-06T17:58:07.860Z
OK, thanks. Will keep an eye on that. I can learn from how they answer it.
amateur
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-10T05:22:56.573Z
We call it 港台腔. by the way.
Joseph S WU
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-10T08:30:32.763Z
@user3685: Really? I can see the first two characters are like "HKTW" but what is "腔" (qiāng, ㄑㄧㄤ)?
hippietrail
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-10T08:36:53.357Z
Since nobody has taken any interest in the question on linguistics.SE I've gone ahead and reworded it to focus on Hong Kong Mandarin vs southern Mandarin generally.
hippietrail
<mandarin><topolect><hong-kong>
What qualities does Hong Kong Mandarin have?
# What qualities does Hong Kong Mandarin have?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2014-02-06)

With Mandarin making more and more in-roads into Cantonese speaking Hong Kong, I'm wondering what characteristics set it apart from Standard Mandarin or other regional Mandarin dialects and/or accents.

I'm not asking so much about native Mandarin speakers that have relocated to Hong Kong. But about Hong Kongers whose first language is Cantonese but also speak fluent Mandarin.

When a Mandarin speaker visits Hong Kong what stands out most?

Other areas where Mandarin is spoken with identifiable regional differences have Wikipedia articles, but Hong Kong does not. Compare the articles on Mandarin in [Singapore](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singaporean_Mandarin) and [Taiwan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwanese_Mandarin) for instance.

(If it is felt that this question would fit in better at linguistics.SE I am not opposed to migrating it there.)

**Tags:** mandarin, topolect, hong-kong

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: I don't know how anyone can answer this question. Hong Kong people speak Mandarin with a Cantonese accent. Easier if you can hear it for yourself. Too troublesome to describe in writing though examples can be given with an idea of how they would pronounce it differently from the standard pronunciation.  
> **username_0**: I don't know anyone who can answer most of the questions on this site. But thanks to Stack Exchange there are sites where many experts who I do not know congregate and some of those have the answers to questions I am pondering. For easy questions I do not need such a site.  
> **username_1**: Canadian comedian Russell Peters gives a good example of how Mandarin vs. Cantonese sounds. This is also a good example of what you can expect Mandarin to sound like when spoken by a Cantonese native. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL8hV-zjJ_4  
> **username_0**: @hungerartist: You seem to assume anyone wondering about Hong Kong Mandarin must be familiar with the Mandarin of other Cantonese speakers. I can amend the question to cover all Cantonese speakers but I'm not sure it would be better that way.  
> **username_0**: @hungerartist: Sorry, I've just noticed what seems to be an odd trend on the site of contributors to make posts along the lines of "I'm not interested in your question." / "Your curiosity is misplaced, just be satisfied with Standard Mandarin.", etc type things. I hope it's not a real trend.  
> **username_1**: Pang Ho-cheung speaking Mandarin http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZXo-b9e-f0  
> **username_0**: Rather than migrate this question to linguistics.SE I'm going to ask it there too. Here's a link in case anybody here is interested in how the responses compare: [What qualities does Hong Kong Mandarin have?](http://linguistics.stackexchange.com/questions/6556)  
> **username_1**: OK, thanks. Will keep an eye on that. I can learn from how they answer it.  
> **username_2**: We call it 港台腔. by the way.  
> **username_0**: @user3685: Really? I can see the first two characters are like "HKTW" but what is "腔" (qiāng, ㄑㄧㄤ)?  
> **username_0**: Since nobody has taken any interest in the question on linguistics.SE I've gone ahead and reworded it to focus on Hong Kong Mandarin vs southern Mandarin generally.  

---

## 2 answers

### Answer by username_3 on 2014-02-06. Score: 10

*I am hardly an expert on this topic. I know basically nothing about Cantonese-influenced Mandarin* **per se**, *but I'll offer an answer of the variety that I think username_0 is looking for. Hopefully other people will be like "I now understand what a good answer to this question is supposed to look like, and furthermore, I know more than that idiot username_3 Joe username_3! I'll answer it!".*

As I mentioned in [an answer to a similar question](https://chinese.stackexchange.com/a/2244/788), most southern Mandarin has the characteristic of merging `zh` `ch` `sh` into the `z` `c` `s` series (e.g., "zhi" pronounced as "zi"). Cantonese does this, so I expect HK Mandarin accents to do so.

In Cantonese (among the many many other differences in pronunciation) the `g` and `k` are preserved in places where, in Mandarin, they have been palatalized into `j` and `q`. For example, 北京 is pronounced "bak1 ging1". (Aside: this helps to explain the outdated Western spellings of "Beijing" as "Peking" and "Chongqing" as "Chungking"--the `q`s and `j`s were originally velar! As for the p/b k/g thing... blame the Europeans.) Sometimes this shows through in people's Mandarin. For instance, some HK classmates of mine mistakenly guessed the pronunciation of 季节 as "gui4jie2" (instead of "ji4jie2").

It's not only `k`s and `g`s that became `j` and `q`. There were also fricatives and affricates that palatalized in similar circumstances (before [i]/[j]). See [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Chinese_phonology#From_Late_Middle_Chinese_to_Standard_Mandarin) and look for the /tɕ/ /tɕʰ/ /ɕ/ parts.

Possibly related to that: I once had a very young student with a rather hilarious Mandarin accent (I don't know if she was a Canto speaker). In at least some circumstances, `zhi` would become `ji`, `chi` would become `qi`, and `shi` would become `xi`. This culminated in her yelling about a spider:

> 老师，老师，有蜘蛛啊！
>
> Standard: lao3shi1, lao3shi1, you3 zhi1zhu1 a!
>
> Her: lao3xi1, lao3xi1, you3 ji1zhu1 a!

I say that it's possibly related, because in Cantonese, 师 = si1 and 蜘 = zi1 (where the i's are actual [i]s! Not like Mandarin!). By analogy to Cantonese words pronounced sik and zik, you would expect the Mandarin to be xi and ji. So, like I said, possibly related.

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: I see. Good post! Similar phenomenon with Hokkien speakers (also southern Chinese like Cantonese speakers). They don't distinguish zh/ch/sh from z/c/s. It all sounds like the latter. I don't know if it's out of habit or laziness.  
> **username_3**: @username_1 It's from influence from their native 方言--if the language you grow up speaking doesn't have a particular sound, chances are you'll have trouble producing it when learning another language (or 方言). For example, most English-language learners have trouble with "th" ([ð] and [θ]) so they merge that sound with something else. E.g., [z] and [s], as in, "I sink zis is it", or [d] and [f], as in "I fink dis is it". It's not a personality trait like laziness or something.  
> **username_1**: Forgot to say Taiwan as an example, they already study Mandarin in school but still don't bother to pronounce zh/ch/sh when talking to each other. I say lazy because ex. 什么 becomes "so mo". Also "sheng" becomes "sen" (no h sound, and no g). Oh! And a popular one is 十 and 四 both sound "si" so 十四 and 四十 are "si si" (no idea if 14 or 40!)  
> **username_1**: Even if they don't speak Hokkien, this is how Taiwan Mandarin is generally spoken from my observation. Maybe Hokkien influenced the way Mandarin is spoken in a informal setting even among non-Hokkien speakers.  
> **username_3**: @username_1 You're saying that if you learn a language in school, and your pronunciation is not perfectly standard, then you're lazy? Should I tell my Chinese coworkers how lazy they are for not pronouncing "th"s as [ð] and [θ]? Maybe I should tell all Americans what lazy bums they are for speaking English with a weird, non-British accent! ...but seriously, I think "lazy" is really, really bad choice of words to describe the phonology of a particular accent or dialect.  
> **username_4**: Cantonese merges the initial consonants of some q- and ch- characters in mandarin, for instance, 窗 and 枪 are homophones in Cantonese. There is a joke saying that a Cantonese was on a train in mainland China. He felt hot and wanted to open the window, so he asked the passenger besides him: "你动不动? 不动我就开枪了". (He meant to say 你冻不冻, 不冻我就开窗了)  
> **username_3**: @username_4 Great! That's useful information, and it's also a funny joke :)  
> **username_5**: @username_3: "the `q`s and `j`s were originally palatal!" -- you mean they were originally velar.  
> **username_3**: @username_5 Good catch. FYI, for things like that, you can directly edit answers.  
> **username_6**: Regarding laziness, I think "relaxed" is a better word when talking about pronunciation. :)  

---

### Answer by username_7 on 2015-01-30. Score: 3

In Cantonese, N and L are often mutually mixable. For example, nian2 年 could be like nien or lien. So when a Canto speakers tries to say it, it could be like nlian2.
Another classic example is 你 which may be nei or lei.  
Even more classic is when someone is from 湖南 and we hear they are from 荷兰 but perhaps linguistically HuNan Hua and Canto are similar mixing their Ns and Ls.

Some cheats for tones like Second tone in Mandarin nearly always is 4th tone (lowest) in Cantonese like 平 or 层. But of course there are tone sandhis like for 楼 (I read that in a [book by Kataoka and Lee](http://rads.stackoverflow.com/amzn/click/962279260X)).


---

