<h2>Why not write in <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Written_Cantonese" rel="nofollow noreferrer">written Cantonese</a>?</h2>

<p>Cantonese speakers are not unwilling to write their own language. Nowadays, written Cantonese is often used in lyrics, instant messaging, social network, advertisements and billboards. It is also gaining public attention as the Government of China wants to ban it. </p>

<p>There is a <a href="https://zh-yue.wikipedia.org/" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Yue Wikipedia site</a> containing 40,000+ articles written in Cantonese. However, written Cantonese is almost always used only in informal writings.</p>

<p>For formal writings, standard written Chinese is being used. It is taught in school to write in standard written Chinese (i.e. written Mandarin). It is because Mandarin was chosen as the basis for standard written Chinese as they had the largest number of speakers during the language reform. </p>

<blockquote>
  <p>No matter which dialect one spoke, one still wrote in standardised Mandarin for everyday writing. However, Cantonese is unique amongst the non-Mandarin varieties in having a widely used written form. (<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Written_Cantonese#History" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Wikipedia</a>)</p>
</blockquote>

<p>Standard written Chinese is understood by speakers of all varieties of Chinese. Even so, there are some variations in vocabularies in different countries (<a href="https://chinese.stackexchange.com/a/17680/3511">see example</a>). </p>

<p>Standard written Chinese can be spoken in Cantonese.</p>

<p>(It is interesting to know that, historically, written Cantonese has been used in Hong Kong for legal proceedings in order to write down the exact spoken testimony of a witness, instead of paraphrasing spoken Cantonese into standard written Chinese.)</p>

<hr>

<h2>Side reading: Language policy of Hong Kong</h2>

<p>The language policy of Hong Kong is  <a href="https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%85%A9%E6%96%87%E4%B8%89%E8%AA%9E" rel="nofollow noreferrer">兩文三語</a> (Bi-literacy and Tri-lingualism), which includes:</p>

<ul>
<li>Written: Chinese &amp; English</li>
<li>Spoken: Cantonese, Mandarin &amp; English</li>
</ul>

<p>Standard written Chinese is normally referred as "Chinese" (中文) or "written Chinese" (書面語) instead of "Mandarin Chinese".</p>

<p>For spoken Chinese (口語), <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantonese" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Cantonese</a> (<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yue_Chinese" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Yue Chinese</a>, namely 廣東話 / 粵語) is the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Hong_Kong#Cantonese" rel="nofollow noreferrer">de facto official spoken variety of Chinese</a> in Hong Kong &amp; Macau. It is influential in Guangdong province, and is widely spoken among overseas communities.</p>

<p>On the other hand, <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_Chinese" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Mandarin Chinese</a> (namely 普通話 / 國語 / 華語) is the official language of China &amp; Taiwan, and one of the four official languages of Singapore.</p>

<hr>

<h2><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Written_Cantonese#History" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Further reading</a></h2>

<blockquote>
  <p>Before the 20th century, the standard written language of China was Classical Chinese, which has grammar and vocabulary based on the Chinese used in ancient China, Old Chinese. However, while this written standard remained essentially static for over two thousand years, the actual spoken language diverged further and further away. Some writings based on local vernacular speech did exist but these were rare. <strong>In the early 20th century, Chinese reformers like Hu Shi saw the need for language reform and championed the development of a vernacular that allowed modern Chinese to write the language the same way they speak</strong>. The vernacular language movement took hold, and the written language was standardised as Vernacular Chinese. <strong>Because they had the largest number of speakers, Mandarin was chosen as the basis for the new standard</strong>.</p>
  
  <p><strong>The standardisation and adoption of written Mandarin pre-empted the development and standardisation of vernaculars based on other varieties of Chinese. No matter which dialect one spoke, one still wrote in standardised Mandarin for everyday writing.</strong> However, Cantonese is unique amongst the non-Mandarin varieties in having a widely used written form. Cantonese-speaking Hong Kong was a British colony isolated from mainland China, so most HK citizens do not speak Mandarin. <strong>Written Cantonese was developed as a means of informal communication. Still, Cantonese speakers must use standard written Chinese, or even literary Chinese, in most formal written communications, since written Cantonese may be unintelligible to speakers of other varieties of Chinese.</strong></p>
  
  <p>Historically, written Cantonese has been used in Hong Kong for legal proceedings in order to write down the exact spoken testimony of a witness, instead of paraphrasing spoken Cantonese into standard written Chinese. However, its popularity and usage has been rising in the last two decades, the late Wong Jim being one of the pioneers of its use as an effective written language. <strong>Written Cantonese has become quite popular in certain tabloids, online chat rooms, instant messaging, and even social networking websites</strong>; this would be even more evident since the rise of Localism in Hong Kong from the 2010s, where the articles written by those Localists media are written in Cantonese. Although most foreign movies and TV shows are subtitled in Standard Chinese, some, such as The Simpsons, are subtitled using written Cantonese. Newspapers have the news section written in Standard Chinese, but they may have <strong>editorials or columns</strong> that contain Cantonese discourses, and Cantonese characters are increasing in popularity on <strong>advertisements and billboards</strong>.</p>
  
  <p>Written Cantonese advertising banner in Mainland China
  It has been stated that Written Cantonese remains limited outside Hong Kong, including other Cantonese-speaking areas in Guangdong Province; e.g., (Snow, 2004). However, colloquial Cantonese advertisements are sometimes seen in Guangdong, suggesting that written Cantonese is widely understood and is regarded favourably, at least in some contexts.</p>
  
  <p>Some sources will use only colloquial Cantonese forms, resulting in text similar to natural speech. However, it is more common to use a mixture of colloquial forms and Standard Chinese forms, some of which are alien to natural speech. Thus the resulting "hybrid" text lies on a continuum between two norms: Standard Chinese, and colloquial Cantonese as spoken.</p>
</blockquote>

<hr>

<h2><a href="https://www.ilc.cuhk.edu.hk/chinese/downloads/Cantonese_make_easy.pdf" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Some Cantonese Learning Resources</a></h2>

<ul>
<li>Cantonese Basic Course: <a href="https://fsi-languages.yojik.eu/languages/FSI/fsi-cantonese.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://fsi-languages.yojik.eu/languages/FSI/fsi-cantonese.html</a></li>
<li>粵語審音配詞字庫
<a href="http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/" rel="nofollow noreferrer">http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/</a></li>
<li>《粵語音韻集成》電子版 <a href="http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Canton2/" rel="nofollow noreferrer">http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Canton2/</a></li>
<li>粵語空中課堂 <a href="http://www.chiculture.net/0604/html/b05/0604b05.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">http://www.chiculture.net/0604/html/b05/0604b05.html</a></li>
<li>粵語網路課堂 <a href="http://www.ilc.cuhk.edu.hk/Chinese/pthprog1/index_flash.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">http://www.ilc.cuhk.edu.hk/Chinese/pthprog1/index_flash.html</a></li>
<li>粵語學習中心 <a href="http://www.clc.com.hk/" rel="nofollow noreferrer">http://www.clc.com.hk/</a></li>
<li>俗語趣談 <a href="http://www.rthk.org.hk/elearning/lautinchi/index.htm" rel="nofollow noreferrer">http://www.rthk.org.hk/elearning/lautinchi/index.htm</a></li>
<li>妙趣廣州話 <a href="http://ifiles.tvb.com/ifiles/fun/fun39.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">http://ifiles.tvb.com/ifiles/fun/fun39.html</a></li>
<li>粵普字詞配對 <a href="http://www.chiculture.net/0603/html/d03/0603d03.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">http://www.chiculture.net/0603/html/d03/0603d03.html</a></li>
<li>樂在詞中 <a href="http://www.dragonwise.hku.hk/dragonwise_main/index.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">http://www.dragonwise.hku.hk/dragonwise_main/index.html</a></li>
</ul>

<hr>

<h2>Other References</h2>

<ul>
<li><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_language" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_language</a></li>
<li><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilingualism_in_Hong_Kong" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilingualism_in_Hong_Kong</a></li>
<li><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Written_Chinese" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Written_Chinese</a></li>
<li><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Cantonese" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Cantonese</a></li>
</ul>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-21T13:52:01.397Z
Thanks for the informative answer!  It's interesting to see that the reason Chinese gave up 文言 was to use "a vernacular that allowed modern Chinese to write the language the same way they speak".  The ironic thing is if Cantonese write in 文言, then they do not write the same way they speak and if they write in 白話 , then they **still** do not write the same way they speak!  It truly sucks to be a Cantonese!
oceanus
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-22T12:19:25.830Z
@oceanus I disagree with the opinion you're putting forth. No, it doesn't suck to be Cantonese, and no, Cantonese speakers aren't "ashamed" to write the way they speak. Many users of this forum have provided you with excellent answers to your question as written. However, the way I've read your replies, it doesn't look like you are ready to accept any of these responses. It sounds like you firmly believe your perception, and you aren't ready to be convinced by anyone else. In that case, there isn't anything more anyone here can say to change your mind.
judester
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-22T12:28:29.193Z
The original question as posted is inflammatory, in my opinion. A more respectful way to rephrase the question: why is written Chinese in Cantonese speaking regions NOT the same as common speech Cantonese. IMO, the answer is straightforward, and less eloquent than what others have already put forth: because the audience matters. I wouldn't write the way I speak for an essay I'm handing in, or for an external-facing email to a third party business associate. To reach a broader group of audience: one would write clearly in a way that is understandable by all intended readers.
judester
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-22T12:40:09.027Z
For the essay and email correspondence examples, I meant in English. It should have read: In English, I wouldn't write the way I speak for an essay I'm handing in, or for an external-facing email to a third party business associate. @wilson, apologies for the long commentary. I really liked your informative answer. +1 !
judester
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-24T15:58:20.860Z
@judester Thanks for joining the discussion :).  Ok you may be right that the wording in the question is less than perfect.  Instead of ashamed I should have written "Why don't Cantonese want to write in their own language?".  Unlike what a lot of other commenters seem to think, I 100% understand the distinction between written standard Chinese and Cantonese.  What I don't understand is why wouldn't Cantonese people want to write in their own language.
oceanus
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-24T15:58:26.847Z
Like you said audience size does matter, but consider that the population of Cantonese speakers is ~60 million.  That is a huge audience!  This is on a similar scale as Italian, French, Vietnamese, Korean, and Urdu.  All of these languages have their own literature.
oceanus
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-24T15:58:32.173Z
One more thing, your comparison: "I wouldn't write the way I speak for an essay I'm handing in, or for an external-facing email to a third party business associate." is not correct because Mandarin and Cantonese are completely different (but related) languages.  It's not comparable to writing in a formal tone or word usage differences.  They are different languages.  In fact the only reason Cantonese people understand written standard Chinese at all is because they learn that as a 2nd language in school.
oceanus
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-24T15:58:56.817Z
This is called diglossia.  It is similar to how in England in the past formal writing was done in the "educated" languages of Latin and French.  However there was still literature written in Anglo-Saxon and now English is the language of the world.  As a thought experiment consider if every English speaker were taught Portuguese in school and all books, TV programmes, and radio broadcasts were only in Portuguese.  English speakers would write in Portuguese for the audience size, but obviously they are not writing in their own language.
oceanus
CC BY-SA 4.0
2016-04-21T08:40:38.623Z
2019-02-11T04:19:20.263Z
2019-02-11T04:19:20.263Z
wilson
<p>It's not really that Cantonese people are unwilling to write the language; It's simply because the language is very oral-oriented where many slangs are involves mainly for effectiveness purpose.  </p>

<p>It's similar to English when people use phase like "What ya'll doing?", which you won't see on most learning material for English or CNN news.  In fact, written cantonese is commonly used in instant messaging tools, like what Mathaholic wrote in the comment.  </p>

<p>Here's some learning material from another post:<br>
<a href="https://fsi-languages.yojik.eu/languages/FSI/fsi-cantonese.html" rel="nofollow">https://fsi-languages.yojik.eu/languages/FSI/fsi-cantonese.html</a>.  </p>

<p>As for being defensive of the language, it's because there are signs with chances of the language being...extinct.  Just imagine when you speak English and your next generations are only lectured in French, whereas in a 100 years no one will speak English on Earth.  It is a little exaggerating but it gives you an idea.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-20T01:44:28.327Z
I understand what you're saying, but I really don't believe it because every language in the world has slang and that doesn't stop people from creating literature.  How does a language having slang words mean that you can't write books in that language?  There are many many American books with the word y'all in them.
oceanus
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-20T01:46:14.787Z
As far as the defensiveness, I understand why they are that way.  The Chinese government seems to really want to kill the language.  My point though is that if you are actually defensive and actually want to preserve your language, then you should use it in more environments like literature but the Cantonese actively REFUSE to use their language in literature at the SAME TIME want to preserve it.  Sounds impossible to me.
oceanus
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-20T01:50:11.433Z
Before Chinese started writing in 白話, they wrote in 文言.  So does that mean in the past 白話 was only slang words and wrong to write and only 文言 was correct to write and then magically somehow 白話 became a "proper" language.  I really don't believe this at all.
oceanus
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-20T14:15:00.033Z
@oceanus there are many books / comic books that are written in Cantonese.  It's not people can't write it, it's just more books are wrote in...written form.  As you've mentioned a couple times where people REFUSE to use the language, I really don't recall seeing anyone doing so.
Alex
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-21T02:38:05.523Z
It is true that China government wants to kill Cantonese. While, people of Cantonese-speaking regions (Hong Kong & Guangdong) are fighting for Cantonese instead of refusing it.
wilson
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-21T02:38:53.530Z
@Alex Ok so maybe refuse is too strong a word.  But clearly there is a strong bias among Cantonese people to write in Mandarin only.  I don't see that as a workable method to language preservation.
oceanus
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-21T14:29:12.017Z
@oceanus oh you're talking about traditional Chinese and simplified Chinese. It's a different thing. Both Cantonese and Mandarin can be written in Traditional and Simplified Chinese, it's the wording used to distinguish the differences. Refuse, then, is the right word.  IMO, Simplified Chinese are like, if you're familiar the shorten words in English, something = sth, i don't know = idk, etc.  While the word's meaning remains, its origin / history are lost.
Alex
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-21T18:02:34.873Z
@Alex No I am not referring to traditional and simplified scripts.  I am saying that standard written Chinese (白話) is a standardised form of Mandarin speaking.  Cantonese and all Chinese use 白話 as the standard written form which is different from the Cantonese language itself (粵語).  For example in Mandarin you would write 我們 and in Cantonese you would write 我哋 to mean "we".  My point is, how on earth can you hope to preserve the Cantonese language when you choose to write in Mandarin instead of the language you want to preserve?  I think it is a road to failure.
oceanus
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-21T21:15:21.460Z
@oceanus I would say if it's a failure then we wouldn't be discussing about it today (i.e. long gone).  It exists / preserves for a reason.  Like i mentioned, 粵語 is written in lots of place - movie / books /etc.  The argument from other people still holds.   Also, take your example, 我們, it can be say in Cantonese too!  When we "read" a book loud, we can say 白話 with 粵語, and it is considered Cantonese, not Mandarin.  It's just for daily usage, 我哋 sounds more natural between Cantonese (people).
Alex
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-21T21:22:12.160Z
@Alex If you consider pronouncing 我們 as ngo5 mun4 makes it Cantonese, then would you say that pronouncing it as ngã môn turns it into Vietnamese?  I wouldn't agree with that statement because yes the sound is Cantonese or Vietnamese, but clearly the text is in the Mandarin language.
oceanus
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-21T21:25:11.000Z
@oceanus I think this is where the confusion comes in.  我們 - a written form, is not Mandarin Language.  It's a written form that's usable in both language.  I would suggest you take some times to study if you're really interested.
Alex
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-21T21:31:36.473Z
@Alex And the written form 白話 is based on what language again?  我們 didn't come out of thin air.  It comes from the way people speak in Beijing.
oceanus
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-21T21:38:06.633Z
@oceanus It comes from the way people speak in Hong Kong too.  Ask a elementary student and he/she'll say it for you.  There's no 'based on what language' here, it is shared.  Also it's strange that you're on one hand asking for material for learning Cantonese, and admit it as a non effective language on the other hand.
Alex
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-21T21:48:04.797Z
@Alex They do that because of diglossia not because it is native Cantonese.  What did I say to suggest to you I think it is a non-effective language?
oceanus
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-21T22:09:46.053Z
@oceanus Diglossia will be more properly used in area such as Quebec, where English and French are both used - And that they're 2 different set of language.  Here's a little different - the written form CAN be used for both language.  I understand it is confusing, and if you really wants to master the language, you need to learn its written form either way. As for the 2nd point, just read all your own comments
Alex
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-21T22:12:57.073Z
@oceanus also I think we're getting off topic here... I do believe my answer is providing what you're asking for.  If you want a discussion on the topic we discuss in the comment, feel free to start a new post
Alex
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-19T17:11:29.907Z
2016-09-29T16:48:31.190Z
2016-09-29T16:48:31.190Z
Alex
<p>The modern written Chinese (白話文) is based on Mandarin, by the way of 我手寫我口 (I write what I say, 講乜寫乜).</p>
<p>Imagine a dialog:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>we'll go for shopping, then have buffet, will you join?</p>
<p>no, my iPhone is dead, but i don't have money for repair, what can i do?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>What do we say actually in Cantonese (講乜), if I write it down (寫乜):</p>
<blockquote>
<p>我哋一陣去 shopping, 然後食 buffet, 你嚟唔嚟?</p>
<p>唔去啦, 部 iPhone 瓜咗, 又冇錢整, 點算?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Do you accept the above 2 lines as &quot;written Cantonese&quot;?</p>
<p>Then, is this an &quot;English&quot; sentence :-)</p>
<blockquote>
<p>माफ गनुस्, why we need to pay for this haute-costume, cui bono?</p>
</blockquote>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-20T03:44:21.773Z
Yes that is written Cantonese.  I've seen this kind of writing casually.  My question is why not write literature this way?  Without doing this how can you preserve your language or teach it to foreigners?
oceanus
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-20T04:15:27.087Z
cantonese is a chinese language, which assume that the written form should be in chinese characters only. that's the reason why "written cantonese" is not used in any formal, official documentations.

personally, i write in literary chinese, "written cantonese" for SMS & email.
水巷孑蠻
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-20T04:51:24.893Z
You said that the reason why written Cantonese is not used formally is because being a Chinese language it must be written in Chinese characters.  Sorry but that statement lacks logic.  You yourself demonstrated above Cantonese written in Chinese characters.  Your reasoning is either wrong or you did not state it clearly.
oceanus
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-20T04:57:23.453Z
By the way you could say exactly the same thing about Mandarin.  Before Chinese started writing in 白話, they wrote in 文言.  Mandarin is a Chinese language and therefore must be written in Chinese characters, therefore Mandarin is not used in formal documents.  Do you see how illogical that sounds?  By the way I'm sure you know that in the time of 文言, Mandarin was not used in formal documents because Chinese characters were invented to write 文言 not Mandarin.  There were many characters that were invented or repurposed in order to write Mandarin such as 那 (which actually is a name of a kingdom).
oceanus
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-20T10:52:13.957Z
ok, i skip several steps. let me try again.


1. according to the collins cobuild english language dictionary, language is "a system of communication which consists of a set of sounds and written symbols which are used by the people of a particular country or region for talking or writing in".

2. han (漢), and some ethnic groups; using the same set of written symbols, chinese characters(中文字) roughly (there're some chinese characters used by cantonese only). At the same time, each ethnic group has it own set of sounds. e.g.: cantonese (廣東話), min (閩南話).
水巷孑蠻
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-20T10:55:25.133Z
3. latin alphabet (a-z) is not in the set of written symbol of chinese (中文字).

4. the "written cantonese" uses 2 sets of written symbols: chinese characters (中文字) & latin alphabets (a-z).

5. the writers, and the audience must understand both the set of sounds of cantonese and english (well, i guess it's, most of the time), and the sets of written symbols of chinese characters and latin alphabet; in order to write, understand "written cantonese".

6. anyone who only understand one set of symbol (either chinese, or, english), such "written cantonese" is incomprehensible.
水巷孑蠻
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-20T10:58:23.760Z
7. for SMS and email, i write "written cantonese", cause i'm sure my friend understand it.

8. for formal, official documentations, when the audience is unknown, and one want to reach all people concerned; the proper way is to write in one set of written symbol only. so, write in modern written chinese (白話文), or english, would be the choice, cause there're significantly more people can understand modern written chinese, or english, than the number of people understand "written cantonese".
水巷孑蠻
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-20T11:00:50.523Z
9. about the aim of preserve the language, literatures in "written cantonese" do exist in hong kong, clearly, the audience is limited.

10. well, to teach "written cantonese" to foreigner; it means to teach 2 sets of sounds and 2 sets of written symbols at the same time, when these 2 sets are so diverse from each other. i can't imagine how to teach a non-english specking foreigner (e.g. hindi, bengali speaking indian), omg :(

a long discussion. :)
水巷孑蠻
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-21T02:58:46.103Z
Thanks for the full explanation :).  I fully understand.  What you are describing is called diglossia.  I take issue only with the concept of what is "proper".  In the past only 文言 was proper and every argument that has been brought up on this question are of the kinds of arguments that people had against writing in 白話文 when it was being standardised.  Chinese characters were invented to write 文言 not 白話文 therefore I will say that all 白話文 writing is "improper" and I am just as correct as you are.
oceanus
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-21T02:59:22.667Z
How can it be that in the past 白話 was only slang words and wrong to write and only 文言 was correct to write and then magically somehow 白話 became a "proper" language?
oceanus
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-21T04:02:41.523Z
well, for me, the description of "chinese characters were invented to write 文言 not 白話文" is weird, would you elaborate it, thanks :)
水巷孑蠻
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-21T04:53:03.943Z
Sure, my understanding is that 文言 (Classical Chinese) was the written form of Old Chinese which was the language of China from 春秋時代 (771 to 476 BC) until the end of 漢朝 (220 AD).  After that until the 20th century writing in this style was the standard form of many Asian countries (China, Vietnam, Japan, Korea).  The Chinese characters were created during that time to write a language that today is extinct.  Mandarin is a descendent of that language and was used to create a new written standard, but to do so they had to repurpose many old Chinese characters with new meanings.
oceanus
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-21T05:59:11.053Z
if you follow wiki, the next statement is important: "Classical Chinese is a traditional style of written Chinese that evolved from the classical language, making it different from any modern spoken form of Chinese."
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Chinese>

文言文 is a written form of chinese only, it's not for speaking. no matter what do you speak, mandarin, cantonese or english; if you follow it's rules, the writing is 文言文.
水巷孑蠻
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-21T06:04:17.923Z
before 1919:
characters used in mandarin speaking are not equal to the characters used in 文言文
characters used in cantonese speaking are not equal to the characters used in 文言文

aft-1919:
characters used in mandarin speaking are equal to the characters used in 白話文
characters used in cantonese speaking are not equal to the characters used in 白話文

btw, 文言文 is not yet extinct, have a look of this:

<https://sufferingsgoneby.tumblr.com/post/138638639511/literary-chinese-poem-hongkong-anthem-booing>


it talks about hong kong, in 文言文 :)
水巷孑蠻
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-21T13:38:36.430Z
Nice link!  When I said extinct I meant that the spoken language of Old Chinese is now extinct.
oceanus
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-22T02:20:34.237Z
great, what do you think of the vertical writing,or in general, the layout? any comments?

btw, is it difficult to comprehend the meaning?
水巷孑蠻
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-24T15:39:34.650Z
I don't have much of an opinion on the writing direction.  The nice thing about Chinese is that each character is a square so orientation is easy to switch.  I guess I prefer left to right just because it is easier to put English and Chinese together.
oceanus
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-20T03:17:02.093Z
2016-04-25T11:53:19.367Z
2020-06-17T09:50:11.587Z
水巷孑蠻
<p>I'm a born Cantonese and I live in Hong Kong.</p>

<p>The simple answer for not writing in Cantonese is because: <strong>it is not as useful as writing in Written Vernacular Chinese.</strong></p>

<h2>The Brief History</h2>

<p>It has been a custom to write in Literary Chinese in the ancient times as you know, and people used to speaking in their own dialects. Because written records were so well kept, Literary Chinese never changed much. While the most of the people, who didn't know how to read and write, changed the form of their spoken languages. The difference gap was originally small, but as time passed, illiterate people began to not be able to understand Literary Chinese. <strong>But Literary Chinese was still used, why? Because knowing it gained you social status and because it was the universal language which all dialects can use to communicate.</strong></p>

<p>Eventually, Written Vernacular Chinese was used because the people wanted to use it, <strong>as they thought it was easier to use and to comprehend than Literary Chinese</strong>.</p>

<h2>The Conclusion</h2>

<p>Why not use written Cantonese?</p>

<ul>
<li>Because writing in and comprehending Written Vernacular Chinese is not that frustrating. The contrast of Cantonese and Written Vernacular Chinese is not as much as the latter and Literary Chinese.</li>
<li>It has been a tradition to write in Written Vernacular Chinese and culture and politics say it is informal to write in Cantonese.</li>
<li>Written Vernacular Chinese has become the standard of communication, just like English in European countries.</li>
<li>Cantonese is oral-orientated, it might be harder to write when one is not trained to write it.</li>
</ul>

<hr>

<p>P.S. Even as a born Cantonese, because I learned to read in Written Vernacular Chinese, it takes more time for me to understand written Cantonese. On the other hand, I can instantly read out Cantonese from Written Vernacular Chinese.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-26T08:33:15.617Z
2016-04-26T08:33:15.617Z
Daniel Cheung
<p>I don't understand why you said Cantonese is not used in writing literature. You do understand that all written Chinese can be read using Cantonese orally?</p>

<p>If you are talking about historical literature, if you use Cantonese to read it, the poems would rhyme, but when you use Mandarin to read it, the poem for the most part will not rhyme.</p>

<p>Cantonese has a longer history in China than the current Mandarin taught in Mainland China.</p>

<p>With such limited time and if one were to learn how to read, it is better to write in proper Chinese characters with the correct grammar rather than using the Cantonese Oral to write, since you will need to know how to read the newspapers, and other official documents.  This is similar to when you had to take English Literature in school, you would not read a book with no proper grammar and spelling in a English Literature class.</p>

<p>Jin Yong - the author who wrote the famous wuxia stories, he wrote it in Hong Kong for the Cantonese readers. However, as a novel, I would expect it to have correct grammar and poetic sentences and not a "Ya'll" or a "wussup" or a "betcha" in there.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-12-13T00:11:15.880Z
You are confusing a couple issues here.  Being able to read written Chinese in Cantonese pronunciation does not mean that what you are reading is Cantonese language.  That is actually an instance of an acrolect.  If I read a Chinese sentence in Japanaese pronuciation does it magically become Japanese language?  No it doesn't.
oceanus
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-12-13T00:11:20.653Z
For example if I read "你今天会做什么？" in Vietnamese pronuciation as "nể kim thiên hội tố thậm ma?" is this sentence magically transformed into Vietnamese language?  No it is still Chinese.  A Vietnamese person would not understand this at all because it is a different language.
oceanus
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-12-13T00:11:25.483Z
Your answer has an assumption that Cantonese does not have "correct" grammar.  This depends on what you mean by "correct" because before the May Fourth Movement (1919) 白話 was incorrect grammar and only 文言文 was correct grammar.
oceanus
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-12-13T00:11:49.270Z
If you really think that Cantonese has incorrect grammar you must ask yourself the obvious question which is why do Cantonese people speak incorrectly?  Why don't they just speak with correct grammar?  This is obviously a silly question because the answer is that Cantonese and Mandarin are different languages.  That's why they have different grammar.
oceanus
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-12-11T22:29:56.983Z
2019-12-11T22:29:56.983Z
passerby
<p>I think the Beijing dialect of Haney uses slangs that sound like slurs; it is very hard to understand if you don't speak that dialect even for Mandarin speakers.</p>

<p>I think with Hanyu(the Chinese language) you can read, write, and speak it. But there is a huge problem with the reading and writing since most of the Chinese in the old days say 500 to 2000 years ago did not go to school--they were illiterate. They use slangs to talk to others; slang words were invented or borrowed from others. Hek, these slangs are still widely used in Cantonese which makes perfect since to a Cantonese person, but hard to understand for non-Cantonese person.</p>

<p>Slangs are not standard Hanyu (Chinese) that is why it is not used in writing; it is  used only in a local area for speaking.</p>

<p>So what is Standard Hanyu? I would say these are the words found in the Hanyu or Chinese Mandarin or Cantonese dictionary. The Hanyu words has not changed in thousands of years; the meanings and usage has remained the same; but the pronunciations some are similar and some are different. Some people may think this pronunciation is a big issue; Since the writing words in both Cantonese and Mandarin are still the same and its meaning remain the same, I tink in the long run it is not an issue.</p>

<p>if I may add:
In English, 1 + 1 + 1 = 3;
In Cantonese 1 + 1 + 1 = 3;
In Mandarin 1 + 1 + 1 still equal to 3.</p>

<p>the math meaning and concept has not changed. Each group of speaker can understand it. So the math language is still the same. Like wise, Hanyu (the standard Chinese language over the past couple thousand of years is still the same notwithstanding the slangs of course) is like this math, it just sounds a bit different when it is read out by each group.</p>

<p>Slangs was created because the older generation of people were working in the farms, they did not go to school, and most of them were wen mang.  Yes, Cantonese people love to speak in slangs, which are passed down for generation to generation. I think the Chinese does not like people speaking in slangs because they don't understand it.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-10-10T16:55:47.483Z
Actually what you are describing is not called slang, it is development of vernacular language.  And in fact this statement is incorrect: "The Hanyu words has not changed in thousands of years; the meanings and usage has remained the same".  The modern written Chinese used now is not the same as thousands of years ago.
oceanus
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-10-10T16:55:51.270Z
For example the word 那 actually is the name of a city, that's why it has a 邑(阝) in it.  If you were using the real Chinese language of thousands of years ago you would say 彼 instead of 那, 汝 instead of 你, 何 instead of 為什麼, etc.  So actually according to what you said using 那, 你, and 為什麼 to mean "that", "you", and "why" are all "slang" terms.  If you speak Mandarin 白話文 is 我手寫我口, if you speak Cantonese 白話文 is 我手寫我口不講.
oceanus
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-10-08T18:50:09.103Z
2017-10-08T18:50:09.103Z
Wayne Ho
<p>For me the most difficult thing about learning Cantonese has been that there are very few learning materials for foreigners (and I assume even for Chinese people). And even the materials that exist are all only regarding basic conversational topics. There is basically no Cantonese literature at all.
When I learned French it was very helpful to be able to follow audiobooks of stories from writers like Voltaire. The closest thing is watching Hong Kong movies, but they speak quickly and the subtitles are in Mandarin not Cantonese.</p>

<p>Are there any Cantonese literature or audiobooks out there?</p>

<p>A question for those Cantonese of you out there: Why does it seem that Cantonese people are so unwilling the write their own language? I understand that if you write Cantonese then other Chinese will not be able to understand, but so what? That sounds like their problem.</p>

<p>For the Vietnamese we used to write everything in Classical Chinese (文言). Since then we've switched to writing in our own language. We like it and are not ashamed of it. I don't see why the Cantonese shouldn't do similarly.</p>

<p>I don't understand why Cantonese are fiercely defensive of their language and at the same time refuse to write it down.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-19T16:44:26.797Z
我寫廣東話, 你睇唔睇得明? :)
velut luna
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-19T18:34:08.047Z
提倡書寫廣東話口語不太可行。文言文又過於艱深。個人比較喜歡古典白話文（如四大名著）。閣下可試以廣東話讀四大名著，會感覺非常自然流暢。反之，以廣東話念近代白話文總覺"有點兒別扭"。蓋因白話文本系北京方言。國初提倡白話文，固因西風東漸，亦不否認有普及教育之利。權宜之計而已。今國人文化程度日高，教育漸趨普及，恢復古典白話文，此其時也。可提倡於正式寫作，官方文件，重要演講等使用古典白話文。如此，一則可提高中文之國際形象，二則可賦各方言以同等地位，消弭正統之爭。一舉兩得。

I wrote the above paragraph with Cantonese in my mind. I will be happy enough to write Cantonese like this.

My English is not good. Can someone help translate it into English? Thanks!
velut luna
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-20T01:41:50.140Z
我睇得明! 我識講小小廣東話 :)
oceanus
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-20T03:18:36.690Z
@Mathaholic 此言差异,白话文非北语之专属,凡有四种,京白,苏白,粤白,韵白.
Lucius Hu
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-20T07:46:49.383Z
You need to understand that (1) the status of the different Chinese "dialects" is different from that of the languages within a branch of e.g. the Indo-European languages, Cantonese and Mandarin are not comparable to Portuguese and Spanish, etc. (2) Historically, the written language was Classical Chinese, with some works in vernacular languages, but Classical Chinese dominated until the early 1900s. (3) Politically, Cantonese speaking areas were dominated by Beijing in a way Spain has never dominated Portugal.
imrek
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-20T07:52:08.533Z
(4) The writing system is pretty much pronunciation agnostic and helped the acceptance of a single written std. language throughout China in a way, French could never have replaced any other Romance lang. in Europe. The only comparable situation was Norway where Danish (East Scandinavian) was introduced as the written standard in the Middle Ages, even though the original Norw. dialects belong(ed) to the Western branch. To this day, there are two written varieties of Norwegian (bokmål & nynorsk) reflecting the language policy of the Danish rulers of Norway, analogue to Cantonese & Mandarin.
imrek
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-21T02:39:23.093Z
@DrunkenMaster The situation you are describing is called diglossia.  I understand that Chinese people are used to this dual language environment.  All I'm saying is that I don't understand why Cantonese people are so happy to have their own language as a second class citizen that is literally going extinct and their method of protecting it is by **not** writing it and instead writing only in Mandarin.
oceanus
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-21T05:46:50.533Z
Ask a Bavarian/Occitan/Gallego if they are literate in their own dialect. Most likely not, and they won't really care. The concept you have to understand is that there is a difference in std. language that facilitates cross regional social/economic exchange, and home dialects that are restricted to people only who grew up in a certain area and it makes no sense to 99% of the pop. to be literate in their regional languages because it does not add anything to their social well-being. There is no point in attacking people why they don't want to write a language that is perceived less prestigious.
imrek
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-21T13:44:51.683Z
Fair enough.  The key in your argument is the word **perception**.  This perception was not always there.  I can legitimately have the perception that 文言 is correct and 白話 is improper.  This is the perception many people had in the beginning of the 20th century.  白話  did not magically become a "proper" language out of thin air.  And for the record I am not attacking anyone.  I am just very confused about why people are willing to degrade their own language and want to preserve it by not preserving it.  It's a totally weird position to take.
oceanus
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-21T14:37:58.203Z
OP, just to clarify, when you're talking about written Cantonese / Mandarin, you're not talking about Traditional Chinese / Simplified Chinese right?
Alex
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-21T18:06:12.330Z
@Alex I am not talking about traditional and simplified.  I am talking about the grammar and word usage.  我哋 vs 我們, 唔 vs 不, 食 vs 吃 for example.
oceanus
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-21T21:21:00.490Z
@oceanus gotcha.  我們, 不, 吃 - these words can be used in both Mandarin and Cantonese.
Alex
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-23T23:35:34.213Z
This is a valid question but it needs to be edited to make it less offensive. For the way it is written at the time of writing this comment (04/23/2016) I will flag it as being rude.
Cosmos Gu
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-25T04:12:34.353Z
I tried to keep the core question while removing assumptions about how Cantonese feel about their language.
Don Kirkby
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-04-26T08:11:08.243Z
I'm a born Cantonese and I have no problem of Written Vernacular Chinese. We still speak in Cantonese, so Written Vernacular Chinese is like the English in European countries.
Daniel Cheung
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-09-30T01:38:08.023Z
@DanielCheung Written Vernacular Chinese is definitely not like English in European countries. If you go to countries such as Spain, France or Poland you will see that the written language is more or less the same as the spoken language of the country, and a lot of people cannot read or write English at all. Even in Scandinavia, where basically everyone can speak English, it isn't generally used for written communication.
米好 '-'
<cantonese>
Why don't Cantonese speakers write their own language?
# Why don't Cantonese speakers write their own language?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2016-04-19)

For me the most difficult thing about learning Cantonese has been that there are very few learning materials for foreigners (and I assume even for Chinese people). And even the materials that exist are all only regarding basic conversational topics. There is basically no Cantonese literature at all.
When I learned French it was very helpful to be able to follow audiobooks of stories from writers like Voltaire. The closest thing is watching Hong Kong movies, but they speak quickly and the subtitles are in Mandarin not Cantonese.

Are there any Cantonese literature or audiobooks out there?

A question for those Cantonese of you out there: Why does it seem that Cantonese people are so unwilling the write their own language? I understand that if you write Cantonese then other Chinese will not be able to understand, but so what? That sounds like their problem.

For the Vietnamese we used to write everything in Classical Chinese (文言). Since then we've switched to writing in our own language. We like it and are not ashamed of it. I don't see why the Cantonese shouldn't do similarly.

I don't understand why Cantonese are fiercely defensive of their language and at the same time refuse to write it down.

**Tags:** cantonese

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: 我寫廣東話, 你睇唔睇得明? :)  
> **username_1**: 提倡書寫廣東話口語不太可行。文言文又過於艱深。個人比較喜歡古典白話文（如四大名著）。閣下可試以廣東話讀四大名著，會感覺非常自然流暢。反之，以廣東話念近代白話文總覺"有點兒別扭"。蓋因白話文本系北京方言。國初提倡白話文，固因西風東漸，亦不否認有普及教育之利。權宜之計而已。今國人文化程度日高，教育漸趨普及，恢復古典白話文，此其時也。可提倡於正式寫作，官方文件，重要演講等使用古典白話文。如此，一則可提高中文之國際形象，二則可賦各方言以同等地位，消弭正統之爭。一舉兩得。  I wrote the above paragraph with Cantonese in my mind. I will be happy enough to write Cantonese like this.  My English is not good. Can someone help translate it into English? Thanks!  
> **username_0**: 我睇得明! 我識講小小廣東話 :)  
> **username_2**: @Mathaholic 此言差异,白话文非北语之专属,凡有四种,京白,苏白,粤白,韵白.  
> **username_3**: You need to understand that (1) the status of the different Chinese "dialects" is different from that of the languages within a branch of e.g. the Indo-European languages, Cantonese and Mandarin are not comparable to Portuguese and Spanish, etc. (2) Historically, the written language was Classical Chinese, with some works in vernacular languages, but Classical Chinese dominated until the early 1900s. (3) Politically, Cantonese speaking areas were dominated by Beijing in a way Spain has never dominated Portugal.  
> **username_3**: (4) The writing system is pretty much pronunciation agnostic and helped the acceptance of a single written std. language throughout China in a way, French could never have replaced any other Romance lang. in Europe. The only comparable situation was Norway where Danish (East Scandinavian) was introduced as the written standard in the Middle Ages, even though the original Norw. dialects belong(ed) to the Western branch. To this day, there are two written varieties of Norwegian (bokmål & nynorsk) reflecting the language policy of the Danish rulers of Norway, analogue to Cantonese & Mandarin.  
> **username_0**: @DrunkenMaster The situation you are describing is called diglossia.  I understand that Chinese people are used to this dual language environment.  All I'm saying is that I don't understand why Cantonese people are so happy to have their own language as a second class citizen that is literally going extinct and their method of protecting it is by **not** writing it and instead writing only in Mandarin.  
> **username_3**: Ask a Bavarian/Occitan/Gallego if they are literate in their own dialect. Most likely not, and they won't really care. The concept you have to understand is that there is a difference in std. language that facilitates cross regional social/economic exchange, and home dialects that are restricted to people only who grew up in a certain area and it makes no sense to 99% of the pop. to be literate in their regional languages because it does not add anything to their social well-being. There is no point in attacking people why they don't want to write a language that is perceived less prestigious.  
> **username_0**: Fair enough.  The key in your argument is the word **perception**.  This perception was not always there.  I can legitimately have the perception that 文言 is correct and 白話 is improper.  This is the perception many people had in the beginning of the 20th century.  白話  did not magically become a "proper" language out of thin air.  And for the record I am not attacking anyone.  I am just very confused about why people are willing to degrade their own language and want to preserve it by not preserving it.  It's a totally weird position to take.  
> **username_4**: OP, just to clarify, when you're talking about written Cantonese / Mandarin, you're not talking about Traditional Chinese / Simplified Chinese right?  
> **username_0**: @username_4 I am not talking about traditional and simplified.  I am talking about the grammar and word usage.  我哋 vs 我們, 唔 vs 不, 食 vs 吃 for example.  
> **username_4**: @username_0 gotcha.  我們, 不, 吃 - these words can be used in both Mandarin and Cantonese.  
> **username_5**: This is a valid question but it needs to be edited to make it less offensive. For the way it is written at the time of writing this comment (04/23/2016) I will flag it as being rude.  
> **username_6**: I tried to keep the core question while removing assumptions about how Cantonese feel about their language.  
> **username_7**: I'm a born Cantonese and I have no problem of Written Vernacular Chinese. We still speak in Cantonese, so Written Vernacular Chinese is like the English in European countries.  
> **username_8**: @username_7 Written Vernacular Chinese is definitely not like English in European countries. If you go to countries such as Spain, France or Poland you will see that the written language is more or less the same as the spoken language of the country, and a lot of people cannot read or write English at all. Even in Scandinavia, where basically everyone can speak English, it isn't generally used for written communication.  

---

## 6 answers

### Answer by username_9 on 2016-04-21. Score: 15

## Why not write in [written Cantonese](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Written_Cantonese)?

Cantonese speakers are not unwilling to write their own language. Nowadays, written Cantonese is often used in lyrics, instant messaging, social network, advertisements and billboards. It is also gaining public attention as the Government of China wants to ban it.

There is a [Yue Wikipedia site](https://zh-yue.wikipedia.org/) containing 40,000+ articles written in Cantonese. However, written Cantonese is almost always used only in informal writings.

For formal writings, standard written Chinese is being used. It is taught in school to write in standard written Chinese (i.e. written Mandarin). It is because Mandarin was chosen as the basis for standard written Chinese as they had the largest number of speakers during the language reform.

> No matter which dialect one spoke, one still wrote in standardised Mandarin for everyday writing. However, Cantonese is unique amongst the non-Mandarin varieties in having a widely used written form. ([Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Written_Cantonese#History))

Standard written Chinese is understood by speakers of all varieties of Chinese. Even so, there are some variations in vocabularies in different countries ([see example](https://chinese.stackexchange.com/a/17680/3511)).

Standard written Chinese can be spoken in Cantonese.

(It is interesting to know that, historically, written Cantonese has been used in Hong Kong for legal proceedings in order to write down the exact spoken testimony of a witness, instead of paraphrasing spoken Cantonese into standard written Chinese.)

---

## Side reading: Language policy of Hong Kong

The language policy of Hong Kong is [兩文三語](https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%85%A9%E6%96%87%E4%B8%89%E8%AA%9E) (Bi-literacy and Tri-lingualism), which includes:

* Written: Chinese & English
* Spoken: Cantonese, Mandarin & English

Standard written Chinese is normally referred as "Chinese" (中文) or "written Chinese" (書面語) instead of "Mandarin Chinese".

For spoken Chinese (口語), [Cantonese](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantonese) ([Yue Chinese](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yue_Chinese), namely 廣東話 / 粵語) is the [de facto official spoken variety of Chinese](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Hong_Kong#Cantonese) in Hong Kong & Macau. It is influential in Guangdong province, and is widely spoken among overseas communities.

On the other hand, [Mandarin Chinese](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_Chinese) (namely 普通話 / 國語 / 華語) is the official language of China & Taiwan, and one of the four official languages of Singapore.

---

## [Further reading](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Written_Cantonese#History)

> Before the 20th century, the standard written language of China was Classical Chinese, which has grammar and vocabulary based on the Chinese used in ancient China, Old Chinese. However, while this written standard remained essentially static for over two thousand years, the actual spoken language diverged further and further away. Some writings based on local vernacular speech did exist but these were rare. **In the early 20th century, Chinese reformers like Hu Shi saw the need for language reform and championed the development of a vernacular that allowed modern Chinese to write the language the same way they speak**. The vernacular language movement took hold, and the written language was standardised as Vernacular Chinese. **Because they had the largest number of speakers, Mandarin was chosen as the basis for the new standard**.
>
> **The standardisation and adoption of written Mandarin pre-empted the development and standardisation of vernaculars based on other varieties of Chinese. No matter which dialect one spoke, one still wrote in standardised Mandarin for everyday writing.** However, Cantonese is unique amongst the non-Mandarin varieties in having a widely used written form. Cantonese-speaking Hong Kong was a British colony isolated from mainland China, so most HK citizens do not speak Mandarin. **Written Cantonese was developed as a means of informal communication. Still, Cantonese speakers must use standard written Chinese, or even literary Chinese, in most formal written communications, since written Cantonese may be unintelligible to speakers of other varieties of Chinese.**
>
> Historically, written Cantonese has been used in Hong Kong for legal proceedings in order to write down the exact spoken testimony of a witness, instead of paraphrasing spoken Cantonese into standard written Chinese. However, its popularity and usage has been rising in the last two decades, the late Wong Jim being one of the pioneers of its use as an effective written language. **Written Cantonese has become quite popular in certain tabloids, online chat rooms, instant messaging, and even social networking websites**; this would be even more evident since the rise of Localism in Hong Kong from the 2010s, where the articles written by those Localists media are written in Cantonese. Although most foreign movies and TV shows are subtitled in Standard Chinese, some, such as The Simpsons, are subtitled using written Cantonese. Newspapers have the news section written in Standard Chinese, but they may have **editorials or columns** that contain Cantonese discourses, and Cantonese characters are increasing in popularity on **advertisements and billboards**.
>
> Written Cantonese advertising banner in Mainland China
> It has been stated that Written Cantonese remains limited outside Hong Kong, including other Cantonese-speaking areas in Guangdong Province; e.g., (Snow, 2004). However, colloquial Cantonese advertisements are sometimes seen in Guangdong, suggesting that written Cantonese is widely understood and is regarded favourably, at least in some contexts.
>
> Some sources will use only colloquial Cantonese forms, resulting in text similar to natural speech. However, it is more common to use a mixture of colloquial forms and Standard Chinese forms, some of which are alien to natural speech. Thus the resulting "hybrid" text lies on a continuum between two norms: Standard Chinese, and colloquial Cantonese as spoken.

---

## [Some Cantonese Learning Resources](https://www.ilc.cuhk.edu.hk/chinese/downloads/Cantonese_make_easy.pdf)

* Cantonese Basic Course: <https://fsi-languages.yojik.eu/languages/FSI/fsi-cantonese.html>
* 粵語審音配詞字庫
  <http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/>
* 《粵語音韻集成》電子版 <http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Canton2/>
* 粵語空中課堂 <http://www.chiculture.net/0604/html/b05/0604b05.html>
* 粵語網路課堂 <http://www.ilc.cuhk.edu.hk/Chinese/pthprog1/index_flash.html>
* 粵語學習中心 <http://www.clc.com.hk/>
* 俗語趣談 <http://www.rthk.org.hk/elearning/lautinchi/index.htm>
* 妙趣廣州話 <http://ifiles.tvb.com/ifiles/fun/fun39.html>
* 粵普字詞配對 <http://www.chiculture.net/0603/html/d03/0603d03.html>
* 樂在詞中 <http://www.dragonwise.hku.hk/dragonwise_main/index.html>

---

## Other References

* <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_language>
* <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilingualism_in_Hong_Kong>
* <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Written_Chinese>
* <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Cantonese>

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Thanks for the informative answer!  It's interesting to see that the reason Chinese gave up 文言 was to use "a vernacular that allowed modern Chinese to write the language the same way they speak".  The ironic thing is if Cantonese write in 文言, then they do not write the same way they speak and if they write in 白話 , then they **still** do not write the same way they speak!  It truly sucks to be a Cantonese!  
> **username_10**: @username_0 I disagree with the opinion you're putting forth. No, it doesn't suck to be Cantonese, and no, Cantonese speakers aren't "ashamed" to write the way they speak. Many users of this forum have provided you with excellent answers to your question as written. However, the way I've read your replies, it doesn't look like you are ready to accept any of these responses. It sounds like you firmly believe your perception, and you aren't ready to be convinced by anyone else. In that case, there isn't anything more anyone here can say to change your mind.  
> **username_10**: The original question as posted is inflammatory, in my opinion. A more respectful way to rephrase the question: why is written Chinese in Cantonese speaking regions NOT the same as common speech Cantonese. IMO, the answer is straightforward, and less eloquent than what others have already put forth: because the audience matters. I wouldn't write the way I speak for an essay I'm handing in, or for an external-facing email to a third party business associate. To reach a broader group of audience: one would write clearly in a way that is understandable by all intended readers.  
> **username_10**: For the essay and email correspondence examples, I meant in English. It should have read: In English, I wouldn't write the way I speak for an essay I'm handing in, or for an external-facing email to a third party business associate. @username_9, apologies for the long commentary. I really liked your informative answer. +1 !  
> **username_0**: @username_10 Thanks for joining the discussion :).  Ok you may be right that the wording in the question is less than perfect.  Instead of ashamed I should have written "Why don't Cantonese want to write in their own language?".  Unlike what a lot of other commenters seem to think, I 100% understand the distinction between written standard Chinese and Cantonese.  What I don't understand is why wouldn't Cantonese people want to write in their own language.  
> **username_0**: Like you said audience size does matter, but consider that the population of Cantonese speakers is ~60 million.  That is a huge audience!  This is on a similar scale as Italian, French, Vietnamese, Korean, and Urdu.  All of these languages have their own literature.  
> **username_0**: One more thing, your comparison: "I wouldn't write the way I speak for an essay I'm handing in, or for an external-facing email to a third party business associate." is not correct because Mandarin and Cantonese are completely different (but related) languages.  It's not comparable to writing in a formal tone or word usage differences.  They are different languages.  In fact the only reason Cantonese people understand written standard Chinese at all is because they learn that as a 2nd language in school.  
> **username_0**: This is called diglossia.  It is similar to how in England in the past formal writing was done in the "educated" languages of Latin and French.  However there was still literature written in Anglo-Saxon and now English is the language of the world.  As a thought experiment consider if every English speaker were taught Portuguese in school and all books, TV programmes, and radio broadcasts were only in Portuguese.  English speakers would write in Portuguese for the audience size, but obviously they are not writing in their own language.  

---

### Answer by username_4 on 2016-04-19. Score: 8

It's not really that Cantonese people are unwilling to write the language; It's simply because the language is very oral-oriented where many slangs are involves mainly for effectiveness purpose.

It's similar to English when people use phase like "What ya'll doing?", which you won't see on most learning material for English or CNN news. In fact, written cantonese is commonly used in instant messaging tools, like what Mathaholic wrote in the comment.

Here's some learning material from another post:  
<https://fsi-languages.yojik.eu/languages/FSI/fsi-cantonese.html>.

As for being defensive of the language, it's because there are signs with chances of the language being...extinct. Just imagine when you speak English and your next generations are only lectured in French, whereas in a 100 years no one will speak English on Earth. It is a little exaggerating but it gives you an idea.

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: I understand what you're saying, but I really don't believe it because every language in the world has slang and that doesn't stop people from creating literature.  How does a language having slang words mean that you can't write books in that language?  There are many many American books with the word y'all in them.  
> **username_0**: As far as the defensiveness, I understand why they are that way.  The Chinese government seems to really want to kill the language.  My point though is that if you are actually defensive and actually want to preserve your language, then you should use it in more environments like literature but the Cantonese actively REFUSE to use their language in literature at the SAME TIME want to preserve it.  Sounds impossible to me.  
> **username_0**: Before Chinese started writing in 白話, they wrote in 文言.  So does that mean in the past 白話 was only slang words and wrong to write and only 文言 was correct to write and then magically somehow 白話 became a "proper" language.  I really don't believe this at all.  
> **username_4**: @username_0 there are many books / comic books that are written in Cantonese.  It's not people can't write it, it's just more books are wrote in...written form.  As you've mentioned a couple times where people REFUSE to use the language, I really don't recall seeing anyone doing so.  
> **username_9**: It is true that China government wants to kill Cantonese. While, people of Cantonese-speaking regions (Hong Kong & Guangdong) are fighting for Cantonese instead of refusing it.  
> **username_0**: @username_4 Ok so maybe refuse is too strong a word.  But clearly there is a strong bias among Cantonese people to write in Mandarin only.  I don't see that as a workable method to language preservation.  
> **username_4**: @username_0 oh you're talking about traditional Chinese and simplified Chinese. It's a different thing. Both Cantonese and Mandarin can be written in Traditional and Simplified Chinese, it's the wording used to distinguish the differences. Refuse, then, is the right word.  IMO, Simplified Chinese are like, if you're familiar the shorten words in English, something = sth, i don't know = idk, etc.  While the word's meaning remains, its origin / history are lost.  
> **username_0**: @username_4 No I am not referring to traditional and simplified scripts.  I am saying that standard written Chinese (白話) is a standardised form of Mandarin speaking.  Cantonese and all Chinese use 白話 as the standard written form which is different from the Cantonese language itself (粵語).  For example in Mandarin you would write 我們 and in Cantonese you would write 我哋 to mean "we".  My point is, how on earth can you hope to preserve the Cantonese language when you choose to write in Mandarin instead of the language you want to preserve?  I think it is a road to failure.  
> **username_4**: @username_0 I would say if it's a failure then we wouldn't be discussing about it today (i.e. long gone).  It exists / preserves for a reason.  Like i mentioned, 粵語 is written in lots of place - movie / books /etc.  The argument from other people still holds.   Also, take your example, 我們, it can be say in Cantonese too!  When we "read" a book loud, we can say 白話 with 粵語, and it is considered Cantonese, not Mandarin.  It's just for daily usage, 我哋 sounds more natural between Cantonese (people).  
> **username_0**: @username_4 If you consider pronouncing 我們 as ngo5 mun4 makes it Cantonese, then would you say that pronouncing it as ngã môn turns it into Vietnamese?  I wouldn't agree with that statement because yes the sound is Cantonese or Vietnamese, but clearly the text is in the Mandarin language.  
> **username_4**: @username_0 I think this is where the confusion comes in.  我們 - a written form, is not Mandarin Language.  It's a written form that's usable in both language.  I would suggest you take some times to study if you're really interested.  
> **username_0**: @username_4 And the written form 白話 is based on what language again?  我們 didn't come out of thin air.  It comes from the way people speak in Beijing.  
> **username_4**: @username_0 It comes from the way people speak in Hong Kong too.  Ask a elementary student and he/she'll say it for you.  There's no 'based on what language' here, it is shared.  Also it's strange that you're on one hand asking for material for learning Cantonese, and admit it as a non effective language on the other hand.  
> **username_0**: @username_4 They do that because of diglossia not because it is native Cantonese.  What did I say to suggest to you I think it is a non-effective language?  
> **username_4**: @username_0 Diglossia will be more properly used in area such as Quebec, where English and French are both used - And that they're 2 different set of language.  Here's a little different - the written form CAN be used for both language.  I understand it is confusing, and if you really wants to master the language, you need to learn its written form either way. As for the 2nd point, just read all your own comments  
> **username_4**: @username_0 also I think we're getting off topic here... I do believe my answer is providing what you're asking for.  If you want a discussion on the topic we discuss in the comment, feel free to start a new post  

---

### Answer by username_11 on 2016-04-20. Score: 3

The modern written Chinese (白話文) is based on Mandarin, by the way of 我手寫我口 (I write what I say, 講乜寫乜).

Imagine a dialog:

> we'll go for shopping, then have buffet, will you join?
>
> no, my iPhone is dead, but i don't have money for repair, what can i do?

What do we say actually in Cantonese (講乜), if I write it down (寫乜):

> 我哋一陣去 shopping, 然後食 buffet, 你嚟唔嚟?
>
> 唔去啦, 部 iPhone 瓜咗, 又冇錢整, 點算?

Do you accept the above 2 lines as "written Cantonese"?

Then, is this an "English" sentence :-)

> माफ गनुस्, why we need to pay for this haute-costume, cui bono?

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Yes that is written Cantonese.  I've seen this kind of writing casually.  My question is why not write literature this way?  Without doing this how can you preserve your language or teach it to foreigners?  
> **username_11**: cantonese is a chinese language, which assume that the written form should be in chinese characters only. that's the reason why "written cantonese" is not used in any formal, official documentations.  personally, i write in literary chinese, "written cantonese" for SMS & email.  
> **username_0**: You said that the reason why written Cantonese is not used formally is because being a Chinese language it must be written in Chinese characters.  Sorry but that statement lacks logic.  You yourself demonstrated above Cantonese written in Chinese characters.  Your reasoning is either wrong or you did not state it clearly.  
> **username_0**: By the way you could say exactly the same thing about Mandarin.  Before Chinese started writing in 白話, they wrote in 文言.  Mandarin is a Chinese language and therefore must be written in Chinese characters, therefore Mandarin is not used in formal documents.  Do you see how illogical that sounds?  By the way I'm sure you know that in the time of 文言, Mandarin was not used in formal documents because Chinese characters were invented to write 文言 not Mandarin.  There were many characters that were invented or repurposed in order to write Mandarin such as 那 (which actually is a name of a kingdom).  
> **username_11**: ok, i skip several steps. let me try again.   1. according to the collins cobuild english language dictionary, language is "a system of communication which consists of a set of sounds and written symbols which are used by the people of a particular country or region for talking or writing in".  2. han (漢), and some ethnic groups; using the same set of written symbols, chinese characters(中文字) roughly (there're some chinese characters used by cantonese only). At the same time, each ethnic group has it own set of sounds. e.g.: cantonese (廣東話), min (閩南話).  
> **username_11**: 3. latin alphabet (a-z) is not in the set of written symbol of chinese (中文字).  4. the "written cantonese" uses 2 sets of written symbols: chinese characters (中文字) & latin alphabets (a-z).  5. the writers, and the audience must understand both the set of sounds of cantonese and english (well, i guess it's, most of the time), and the sets of written symbols of chinese characters and latin alphabet; in order to write, understand "written cantonese".  6. anyone who only understand one set of symbol (either chinese, or, english), such "written cantonese" is incomprehensible.  
> **username_11**: 7. for SMS and email, i write "written cantonese", cause i'm sure my friend understand it.  8. for formal, official documentations, when the audience is unknown, and one want to reach all people concerned; the proper way is to write in one set of written symbol only. so, write in modern written chinese (白話文), or english, would be the choice, cause there're significantly more people can understand modern written chinese, or english, than the number of people understand "written cantonese".  
> **username_11**: 9. about the aim of preserve the language, literatures in "written cantonese" do exist in hong kong, clearly, the audience is limited.  10. well, to teach "written cantonese" to foreigner; it means to teach 2 sets of sounds and 2 sets of written symbols at the same time, when these 2 sets are so diverse from each other. i can't imagine how to teach a non-english specking foreigner (e.g. hindi, bengali speaking indian), omg :(  a long discussion. :)  
> **username_0**: Thanks for the full explanation :).  I fully understand.  What you are describing is called diglossia.  I take issue only with the concept of what is "proper".  In the past only 文言 was proper and every argument that has been brought up on this question are of the kinds of arguments that people had against writing in 白話文 when it was being standardised.  Chinese characters were invented to write 文言 not 白話文 therefore I will say that all 白話文 writing is "improper" and I am just as correct as you are.  
> **username_0**: How can it be that in the past 白話 was only slang words and wrong to write and only 文言 was correct to write and then magically somehow 白話 became a "proper" language?  
> **username_11**: well, for me, the description of "chinese characters were invented to write 文言 not 白話文" is weird, would you elaborate it, thanks :)  
> **username_0**: Sure, my understanding is that 文言 (Classical Chinese) was the written form of Old Chinese which was the language of China from 春秋時代 (771 to 476 BC) until the end of 漢朝 (220 AD).  After that until the 20th century writing in this style was the standard form of many Asian countries (China, Vietnam, Japan, Korea).  The Chinese characters were created during that time to write a language that today is extinct.  Mandarin is a descendent of that language and was used to create a new written standard, but to do so they had to repurpose many old Chinese characters with new meanings.  
> **username_11**: if you follow wiki, the next statement is important: "Classical Chinese is a traditional style of written Chinese that evolved from the classical language, making it different from any modern spoken form of Chinese." <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Chinese>  文言文 is a written form of chinese only, it's not for speaking. no matter what do you speak, mandarin, cantonese or english; if you follow it's rules, the writing is 文言文.  
> **username_11**: before 1919: characters used in mandarin speaking are not equal to the characters used in 文言文 characters used in cantonese speaking are not equal to the characters used in 文言文  aft-1919: characters used in mandarin speaking are equal to the characters used in 白話文 characters used in cantonese speaking are not equal to the characters used in 白話文  btw, 文言文 is not yet extinct, have a look of this:  <https://sufferingsgoneby.tumblr.com/post/138638639511/literary-chinese-poem-hongkong-anthem-booing>   it talks about hong kong, in 文言文 :)  
> **username_0**: Nice link!  When I said extinct I meant that the spoken language of Old Chinese is now extinct.  
> **username_11**: great, what do you think of the vertical writing,or in general, the layout? any comments?  btw, is it difficult to comprehend the meaning?  
> **username_0**: I don't have much of an opinion on the writing direction.  The nice thing about Chinese is that each character is a square so orientation is easy to switch.  I guess I prefer left to right just because it is easier to put English and Chinese together.  

---

### Answer by username_7 on 2016-04-26. Score: 3

I'm a born Cantonese and I live in Hong Kong.

The simple answer for not writing in Cantonese is because: **it is not as useful as writing in Written Vernacular Chinese.**

## The Brief History

It has been a custom to write in Literary Chinese in the ancient times as you know, and people used to speaking in their own dialects. Because written records were so well kept, Literary Chinese never changed much. While the most of the people, who didn't know how to read and write, changed the form of their spoken languages. The difference gap was originally small, but as time passed, illiterate people began to not be able to understand Literary Chinese. **But Literary Chinese was still used, why? Because knowing it gained you social status and because it was the universal language which all dialects can use to communicate.**

Eventually, Written Vernacular Chinese was used because the people wanted to use it, **as they thought it was easier to use and to comprehend than Literary Chinese**.

## The Conclusion

Why not use written Cantonese?

* Because writing in and comprehending Written Vernacular Chinese is not that frustrating. The contrast of Cantonese and Written Vernacular Chinese is not as much as the latter and Literary Chinese.
* It has been a tradition to write in Written Vernacular Chinese and culture and politics say it is informal to write in Cantonese.
* Written Vernacular Chinese has become the standard of communication, just like English in European countries.
* Cantonese is oral-orientated, it might be harder to write when one is not trained to write it.

---

P.S. Even as a born Cantonese, because I learned to read in Written Vernacular Chinese, it takes more time for me to understand written Cantonese. On the other hand, I can instantly read out Cantonese from Written Vernacular Chinese.


---

### Answer by username_12 on 2019-12-11. Score: 2

I don't understand why you said Cantonese is not used in writing literature. You do understand that all written Chinese can be read using Cantonese orally?

If you are talking about historical literature, if you use Cantonese to read it, the poems would rhyme, but when you use Mandarin to read it, the poem for the most part will not rhyme.

Cantonese has a longer history in China than the current Mandarin taught in Mainland China.

With such limited time and if one were to learn how to read, it is better to write in proper Chinese characters with the correct grammar rather than using the Cantonese Oral to write, since you will need to know how to read the newspapers, and other official documents. This is similar to when you had to take English Literature in school, you would not read a book with no proper grammar and spelling in a English Literature class.

Jin Yong - the author who wrote the famous wuxia stories, he wrote it in Hong Kong for the Cantonese readers. However, as a novel, I would expect it to have correct grammar and poetic sentences and not a "Ya'll" or a "wussup" or a "betcha" in there.

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: You are confusing a couple issues here.  Being able to read written Chinese in Cantonese pronunciation does not mean that what you are reading is Cantonese language.  That is actually an instance of an acrolect.  If I read a Chinese sentence in Japanaese pronuciation does it magically become Japanese language?  No it doesn't.  
> **username_0**: For example if I read "你今天会做什么？" in Vietnamese pronuciation as "nể kim thiên hội tố thậm ma?" is this sentence magically transformed into Vietnamese language?  No it is still Chinese.  A Vietnamese person would not understand this at all because it is a different language.  
> **username_0**: Your answer has an assumption that Cantonese does not have "correct" grammar.  This depends on what you mean by "correct" because before the May Fourth Movement (1919) 白話 was incorrect grammar and only 文言文 was correct grammar.  
> **username_0**: If you really think that Cantonese has incorrect grammar you must ask yourself the obvious question which is why do Cantonese people speak incorrectly?  Why don't they just speak with correct grammar?  This is obviously a silly question because the answer is that Cantonese and Mandarin are different languages.  That's why they have different grammar.  

---

### Answer by username_13 on 2017-10-08. Score: 0

I think the Beijing dialect of Haney uses slangs that sound like slurs; it is very hard to understand if you don't speak that dialect even for Mandarin speakers.

I think with Hanyu(the Chinese language) you can read, write, and speak it. But there is a huge problem with the reading and writing since most of the Chinese in the old days say 500 to 2000 years ago did not go to school--they were illiterate. They use slangs to talk to others; slang words were invented or borrowed from others. Hek, these slangs are still widely used in Cantonese which makes perfect since to a Cantonese person, but hard to understand for non-Cantonese person.

Slangs are not standard Hanyu (Chinese) that is why it is not used in writing; it is used only in a local area for speaking.

So what is Standard Hanyu? I would say these are the words found in the Hanyu or Chinese Mandarin or Cantonese dictionary. The Hanyu words has not changed in thousands of years; the meanings and usage has remained the same; but the pronunciations some are similar and some are different. Some people may think this pronunciation is a big issue; Since the writing words in both Cantonese and Mandarin are still the same and its meaning remain the same, I tink in the long run it is not an issue.

if I may add:
In English, 1 + 1 + 1 = 3;
In Cantonese 1 + 1 + 1 = 3;
In Mandarin 1 + 1 + 1 still equal to 3.

the math meaning and concept has not changed. Each group of speaker can understand it. So the math language is still the same. Like wise, Hanyu (the standard Chinese language over the past couple thousand of years is still the same notwithstanding the slangs of course) is like this math, it just sounds a bit different when it is read out by each group.

Slangs was created because the older generation of people were working in the farms, they did not go to school, and most of them were wen mang. Yes, Cantonese people love to speak in slangs, which are passed down for generation to generation. I think the Chinese does not like people speaking in slangs because they don't understand it.

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Actually what you are describing is not called slang, it is development of vernacular language.  And in fact this statement is incorrect: "The Hanyu words has not changed in thousands of years; the meanings and usage has remained the same".  The modern written Chinese used now is not the same as thousands of years ago.  
> **username_0**: For example the word 那 actually is the name of a city, that's why it has a 邑(阝) in it.  If you were using the real Chinese language of thousands of years ago you would say 彼 instead of 那, 汝 instead of 你, 何 instead of 為什麼, etc.  So actually according to what you said using 那, 你, and 為什麼 to mean "that", "you", and "why" are all "slang" terms.  If you speak Mandarin 白話文 is 我手寫我口, if you speak Cantonese 白話文 is 我手寫我口不講.  

---

