<p>in the book <a href="https://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&amp;chapter=980624" rel="nofollow noreferrer">“御批資治通鑑綱目”, volume 卷五十下 has an annotation (no. 190)</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>王府率率與帥通音所類反王府之率掌兵仗羽衛之政令總諸曹之事</p>
</blockquote>
<p>王府率・率與帥通音・所類反・王府之率・掌兵仗羽衛之政令・總諸曹之事</p>
<p>率與帥通音: the characters “率” and “帥” share the same syllable</p>
<p>所類反: 所 <strong>s</strong>oh2 + 類 l<strong>ui</strong>6 —&gt; <strong>sui</strong>3</p>
<p>王府之率: the commander of a prince’s mansion</p>
<p>掌兵仗羽衛之政令: superintends the orders of security personnel, guard of honour</p>
<p>總諸曹之事: chief of staffs affairs</p>
<p>so, “王府率”, might be interpreted  as “<strong>prince’s mansion chamberlain</strong>“  imo</p>
<p>have fun </p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-06-21T02:05:43.190Z
2024-06-21T03:46:41.500Z
2024-06-21T03:46:41.500Z
水巷孑蠻
<p>I cannot find too much information about the official title 王府率, mentioned in the <a href="https://zh.wikisource.org/zh-hant/%E8%88%8A%E5%94%90%E6%9B%B8/%E5%8D%B7177#%E6%9B%B9%E7%A2%BA" rel="noreferrer">舊唐書‧曹确傳</a> :</p>
<blockquote>
<p>確精儒術，器識謹重，動循法度。懿宗以伶官李可及為威衛將軍，確執奏曰：「臣覽貞觀故事，太宗初定官品令，文武官共六百四十三員，顧謂房玄齡曰：『朕設此官員，以待賢士。工商雜色之流，假令術逾儕類，止可厚給財物，必不可超授官秩，與朝賢君子比肩而立，同坐而食。』太和中，文宗欲以樂官尉遲璋為<strong>王府率</strong>，拾遺竇洵直極諫，乃改授光州長史。伏乞以兩朝故事，別授可及之官。」帝不之聽。</p>
</blockquote>
<p>There is another occurrence of 王府率 in the <a href="https://zh.wikisource.org/zh-hant/%E8%88%8A%E5%94%90%E6%9B%B8/%E5%8D%B7173#%E9%99%B3%E5%A4%B7%E8%A1%8C" rel="noreferrer">舊唐書‧陳夷行傳</a>, suggesting that it is of the 六品 rank :</p>
<blockquote>
<p>仙韶院樂官尉遲璋授王府率，右拾遺竇洵直當衙論曰：「伶人自有本色官，不合授之清秩。」鄭覃曰：「此小事，何足當衙論列！<strong>王府率</strong>是六品雜官，謂之清秩，與洵直得否？此近名也。」嗣復曰：「嘗聞洵直幽，今當衙論一樂官，幽則有之，亦不足怪。」夷行曰：「諫官當衙，只合論宰相得失，不合論樂官。然業已陳論，須與處置。今後樂人每七八年與轉一官，不然，則加手力課三數人。」帝曰：「別與一官。」乃授光州長史，賜洵直絹百疋。夷行尋轉門下侍郎。</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Finally, a comment from 胡三省 in <a href="https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E8%B3%87%E6%B2%BB%E9%80%9A%E9%91%92_(%E8%83%A1%E4%B8%89%E7%9C%81%E9%9F%B3%E6%B3%A8)/%E5%8D%B7250" rel="noreferrer">資治通鑒‧卷二百五十</a> :</p>
<blockquote>
<p>⑤樂工李可及善爲新聲，三月，上以可及爲左威衞將軍，曹確諫曰︰「太宗定文武官六百餘員，謂房玄齡曰︰『朕以待天下賢士，工商雜流，不可處也。』〈處，昌呂翻。〉大和中，文宗欲以樂工尉遲璋爲王府率，〈尉，孿勿翻。<strong>東宮有十率，諸王有府率</strong>。〉拾遺竇洵直諫，卽改光州長史。乞以兩朝故事，別除可及官。」不從。</p>
</blockquote>
<p>What would be an adequate translation of the official title 王府率 ? In the texts above, the emperor 文宗 wanted to assign this title to the musician 尉遲璋, so I doubt that it has a military nature like 東宮十率.</p>
<p>[Edit] : 尉遲璋 is actually a 伶官. The musician 李可及 in the aforementioned texts has got the title 威衛將軍, so it's likely that 王府率 has also a military nature.</p>
<p><em>The Dictionary of Official Titles in Imperial China</em> (Charles O. Hucker) was not helpful on the matter.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-06-21T01:29:42.677Z
one meaning of "率[shuài]" is "leader - 领导者，统帅，首领". I think 王府率 is a supervising position in the prince's residence (王府) in charge of miscellaneous works of the residence (王府琐碎事务).
r13
<translation><classical-chinese><history>
Translation of the official title 王府率 (Tang dynasty)
# Translation of the official title 王府率 (Tang dynasty)

(Asked by: username_0 on 2024-06-20)

I cannot find too much information about the official title 王府率, mentioned in the [舊唐書‧曹确傳](https://zh.wikisource.org/zh-hant/%E8%88%8A%E5%94%90%E6%9B%B8/%E5%8D%B7177#%E6%9B%B9%E7%A2%BA) :

> 確精儒術，器識謹重，動循法度。懿宗以伶官李可及為威衛將軍，確執奏曰：「臣覽貞觀故事，太宗初定官品令，文武官共六百四十三員，顧謂房玄齡曰：『朕設此官員，以待賢士。工商雜色之流，假令術逾儕類，止可厚給財物，必不可超授官秩，與朝賢君子比肩而立，同坐而食。』太和中，文宗欲以樂官尉遲璋為**王府率**，拾遺竇洵直極諫，乃改授光州長史。伏乞以兩朝故事，別授可及之官。」帝不之聽。

There is another occurrence of 王府率 in the [舊唐書‧陳夷行傳](https://zh.wikisource.org/zh-hant/%E8%88%8A%E5%94%90%E6%9B%B8/%E5%8D%B7173#%E9%99%B3%E5%A4%B7%E8%A1%8C), suggesting that it is of the 六品 rank :

> 仙韶院樂官尉遲璋授王府率，右拾遺竇洵直當衙論曰：「伶人自有本色官，不合授之清秩。」鄭覃曰：「此小事，何足當衙論列！**王府率**是六品雜官，謂之清秩，與洵直得否？此近名也。」嗣復曰：「嘗聞洵直幽，今當衙論一樂官，幽則有之，亦不足怪。」夷行曰：「諫官當衙，只合論宰相得失，不合論樂官。然業已陳論，須與處置。今後樂人每七八年與轉一官，不然，則加手力課三數人。」帝曰：「別與一官。」乃授光州長史，賜洵直絹百疋。夷行尋轉門下侍郎。

Finally, a comment from 胡三省 in [資治通鑒‧卷二百五十](https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E8%B3%87%E6%B2%BB%E9%80%9A%E9%91%92_(%E8%83%A1%E4%B8%89%E7%9C%81%E9%9F%B3%E6%B3%A8)/%E5%8D%B7250) :

> ⑤樂工李可及善爲新聲，三月，上以可及爲左威衞將軍，曹確諫曰︰「太宗定文武官六百餘員，謂房玄齡曰︰『朕以待天下賢士，工商雜流，不可處也。』〈處，昌呂翻。〉大和中，文宗欲以樂工尉遲璋爲王府率，〈尉，孿勿翻。**東宮有十率，諸王有府率**。〉拾遺竇洵直諫，卽改光州長史。乞以兩朝故事，別除可及官。」不從。

What would be an adequate translation of the official title 王府率 ? In the texts above, the emperor 文宗 wanted to assign this title to the musician 尉遲璋, so I doubt that it has a military nature like 東宮十率.

[Edit] : 尉遲璋 is actually a 伶官. The musician 李可及 in the aforementioned texts has got the title 威衛將軍, so it's likely that 王府率 has also a military nature.

*The Dictionary of Official Titles in Imperial China* (Charles O. Hucker) was not helpful on the matter.

**Tags:** translation, classical-chinese, history

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: one meaning of "率[shuài]" is "leader - 领导者，统帅，首领". I think 王府率 is a supervising position in the prince's residence (王府) in charge of miscellaneous works of the residence (王府琐碎事务).  

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## 1 answers

### Answer by username_2 on 2024-06-21. Score: 3 | Accepted answer

in the book [“御批資治通鑑綱目”, volume 卷五十下 has an annotation (no. 190)](https://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&chapter=980624):

> 王府率率與帥通音所類反王府之率掌兵仗羽衛之政令總諸曹之事

王府率・率與帥通音・所類反・王府之率・掌兵仗羽衛之政令・總諸曹之事

率與帥通音: the characters “率” and “帥” share the same syllable

所類反: 所 **s**oh2 + 類 l**ui**6 —> **sui**3

王府之率: the commander of a prince’s mansion

掌兵仗羽衛之政令: superintends the orders of security personnel, guard of honour

總諸曹之事: chief of staffs affairs

so, “王府率”, might be interpreted as “**prince’s mansion chamberlain**“ imo

have fun


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