<p>&quot;對稱&quot;, &quot;比喻&quot; and &quot;联想&quot; are technics commonly used in poems or poetries.</p>
<p>We know there is no flower named &quot;鶯花&quot;, thus, it must represent 鶯(oriole) and 花(flower). Now, through &quot;對稱&quot;, it is obvious how to associate 鶯 and 花 with the respective words 啼(twitter/chirp) and 笑(laugh) - &quot;鶯啼&quot; and &quot;花笑&quot;. Note that flower is often used to describe young lady, such as &quot;花容&quot; describes the young woman's facial figure (using 比喻), which is capable of laughing and smiling (through 联想).</p>
<p>IMO, this poem can be rewritten and interpreted as:</p>
<p><strong>鶯</strong>啼<strong>花</strong>又笑, 畢竟<strong>誰</strong>是春. - (Outdoor), the oriole is twittering/chirping, and the flower is blooming, after all, who (鶯 and 花) is winning out in representing the coming of spring?</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-01-08T19:34:17.830Z
Thanks for the explanation! So, you are saying that through parallelism and due to the verbs and the things they associate with, we would understand "Orioles flowers caw and laugh" as (orioles caw) and (flowers laugh), due to their parallel structure. Are there any situations where you wouldn't do this? For example, are there any contexts where

鶯花啼又笑

*would* mean "(orioles and flowers) cry and laugh", but the context of the poem here makes it not a valid reading?
Persimmon_Leaves
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-01-08T20:14:47.033Z
"orioles and flowers cry and laugh" - 鶯**與**花啼又笑, but it violates the style of the poem. Also, due to the fact that a bird can't laugh/smile, you would still understand it as 鶯啼**與**花笑. Why 花笑 then? Because 花 is traditionally humanized as the young woman and possesses the same traits - laugh and beauty. Here "association(联想)" is at work :)
r13
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-01-08T21:27:24.680Z
I think the sentence "鶯花**齊**啼笑" can mean "orioles and flowers cry and laugh (together)", but it is not a sentence that makes sense as a bird can't laugh and flower won't caw.
r13
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-01-06T19:58:58.910Z
2023-01-07T03:21:29.727Z
2023-01-07T03:21:29.727Z
r13
<blockquote>
<p>The orioles quaver / The flowers laugh</p>
</blockquote>
<p>this translation is very good </p>
<blockquote>
<p>風露澹清晨・簾間<strong>獨</strong>起人・鶯花啼又笑・畢竟是誰<strong>春</strong></p>
</blockquote>
<p>considering the characters “獨” &amp; “春”; i would, read the verse as:</p>
<p>[i saw that there’re] oriole<strong>s</strong> chirp [amongst those] blossoming flower<strong>s</strong></p>
<p>the author woke up alone (獨起人), in a morning in spring, found that all living beings did their best for mating. so, he exclaimed that “after all, this spring is for whom? (畢竟是誰春)[while i’m alone!]</p>
<p>have fun :)</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-01-07T01:34:46.640Z
2023-01-07T01:34:46.640Z
水巷孑蠻
<p>&quot;The orioles quaver / The flowers laugh&quot; is a good translation, though I would put it as &quot;The orioles crow (amid) The flowers' laughter&quot; because the passage, I believe, is to create the poetic imagery of orioles alighting on tree branches loaded with Spring blossoms broadly blooming as though in a chorus of laughter, and burst out in songs.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-01-07T03:03:27.377Z
2023-01-07T06:08:49.297Z
2023-01-07T06:08:49.297Z
Wayne Cheah
<p>The full poem is as follows:</p>
<p>早起</p>
<p>風露澹清晨</p>
<p>簾間獨起人</p>
<p>鶯花啼又笑</p>
<p>畢竟是誰春</p>
<p>I was discussing this with a friend who speaks Chinese, and they translated this line:</p>
<p>鶯花啼又笑</p>
<p>as &quot;Birds and flowers cry and laugh&quot;. Their father translated it as something like &quot;Birds laugh and cry&quot;, saying that 鶯花 refers to just a bird, a kind of hummingbird based on what he said. My friend noted that 又, in modern Chinese, makes it likely that the action(s) is/are being ascribed either collectively to two things (birds and flowers) or to one thing (hummingbirds).</p>
<p>However, Chloe Garcia Roberts, in her book of translations of Li Shangyin, translates the line as:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>The orioles quaver /
The flowers laugh</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Without getting into the lexical choices here, on what basis does she ascribe 啼 to the bird and 笑 to the flowers? Is this a type of construction specific to poetic voice, to the Tang era, or something else? Or is it just a poetic interpretive choice on the basis of conceptual parallelism: (noun1 noun2 verb1 verb2)=(noun1 verb1)(noun2 verb2). Li Shangyin lived from 813–858, so I assume there has been a lot of time for things to change or have specific uses.</p>
<p>Any insight helps even if it isn't a full answer. Thanks!</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-01-06T21:45:30.263Z
Unless there is evidence of a huge change in the ecology of China (or indeed Li Shangyin's travels) since the late Tang, 鶯 cannot refer to the hummingbird of the biological family _Trochilidae_. In modern Chinese, it refers to various Old world passerines, e.g. orioles, nightingales, typical warblers.
Michaelyus
<classical-chinese><verbs><history><poetry>
Interpreting a line from Li Shangyin -- 鶯花啼又笑
# Interpreting a line from Li Shangyin -- 鶯花啼又笑

(Asked by: username_0 on 2023-01-06)

The full poem is as follows:

早起

風露澹清晨

簾間獨起人

鶯花啼又笑

畢竟是誰春

I was discussing this with a friend who speaks Chinese, and they translated this line:

鶯花啼又笑

as "Birds and flowers cry and laugh". Their father translated it as something like "Birds laugh and cry", saying that 鶯花 refers to just a bird, a kind of hummingbird based on what he said. My friend noted that 又, in modern Chinese, makes it likely that the action(s) is/are being ascribed either collectively to two things (birds and flowers) or to one thing (hummingbirds).

However, Chloe Garcia Roberts, in her book of translations of Li Shangyin, translates the line as:

> The orioles quaver /
> The flowers laugh

Without getting into the lexical choices here, on what basis does she ascribe 啼 to the bird and 笑 to the flowers? Is this a type of construction specific to poetic voice, to the Tang era, or something else? Or is it just a poetic interpretive choice on the basis of conceptual parallelism: (noun1 noun2 verb1 verb2)=(noun1 verb1)(noun2 verb2). Li Shangyin lived from 813–858, so I assume there has been a lot of time for things to change or have specific uses.

Any insight helps even if it isn't a full answer. Thanks!

**Tags:** classical-chinese, verbs, history, poetry

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: Unless there is evidence of a huge change in the ecology of China (or indeed Li Shangyin's travels) since the late Tang, 鶯 cannot refer to the hummingbird of the biological family _Trochilidae_. In modern Chinese, it refers to various Old world passerines, e.g. orioles, nightingales, typical warblers.  

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## 3 answers

### Answer by username_2 on 2023-01-06. Score: 2

"對稱", "比喻" and "联想" are technics commonly used in poems or poetries.

We know there is no flower named "鶯花", thus, it must represent 鶯(oriole) and 花(flower). Now, through "對稱", it is obvious how to associate 鶯 and 花 with the respective words 啼(twitter/chirp) and 笑(laugh) - "鶯啼" and "花笑". Note that flower is often used to describe young lady, such as "花容" describes the young woman's facial figure (using 比喻), which is capable of laughing and smiling (through 联想).

IMO, this poem can be rewritten and interpreted as:

**鶯**啼**花**又笑, 畢竟**誰**是春. - (Outdoor), the oriole is twittering/chirping, and the flower is blooming, after all, who (鶯 and 花) is winning out in representing the coming of spring?

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Thanks for the explanation! So, you are saying that through parallelism and due to the verbs and the things they associate with, we would understand "Orioles flowers caw and laugh" as (orioles caw) and (flowers laugh), due to their parallel structure. Are there any situations where you wouldn't do this? For example, are there any contexts where  鶯花啼又笑  *would* mean "(orioles and flowers) cry and laugh", but the context of the poem here makes it not a valid reading?  
> **username_2**: "orioles and flowers cry and laugh" - 鶯**與**花啼又笑, but it violates the style of the poem. Also, due to the fact that a bird can't laugh/smile, you would still understand it as 鶯啼**與**花笑. Why 花笑 then? Because 花 is traditionally humanized as the young woman and possesses the same traits - laugh and beauty. Here "association(联想)" is at work :)  
> **username_2**: I think the sentence "鶯花**齊**啼笑" can mean "orioles and flowers cry and laugh (together)", but it is not a sentence that makes sense as a bird can't laugh and flower won't caw.  

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### Answer by username_3 on 2023-01-07. Score: 0

> The orioles quaver / The flowers laugh

this translation is very good

> 風露澹清晨・簾間**獨**起人・鶯花啼又笑・畢竟是誰**春**

considering the characters “獨” & “春”; i would, read the verse as:

[i saw that there’re] oriole**s** chirp [amongst those] blossoming flower**s**

the author woke up alone (獨起人), in a morning in spring, found that all living beings did their best for mating. so, he exclaimed that “after all, this spring is for whom? (畢竟是誰春)[while i’m alone!]

have fun :)


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### Answer by username_4 on 2023-01-07. Score: 0

"The orioles quaver / The flowers laugh" is a good translation, though I would put it as "The orioles crow (amid) The flowers' laughter" because the passage, I believe, is to create the poetic imagery of orioles alighting on tree branches loaded with Spring blossoms broadly blooming as though in a chorus of laughter, and burst out in songs.


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