<blockquote>
<p>Did 瑞 used to be pronounced suì in 官話?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>It was pronounced far closer to <strong>suì</strong> than today’s <strong>ruì</strong>, and more than enough to warrant the use of 瑞 as a transcription for <em>Switzerland</em> or <em>Sweden</em>.</p>
<blockquote>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/VOGbf.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/VOGbf.png" alt="enter image description here" /></a></p>
<p>Excerpt from
元・周德清<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhongyuan_Yinyun" rel="nofollow noreferrer">《中原音韻》</a>,
detailing the phonology of 13th Century Central Plains speech, a.k.a.
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Mandarin" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Old Mandarin</a>. The
characters 睡, 稅, 說, and 瑞 are pronounced identically. The expected
Mandarin reflex of 瑞 is <strong>shuì</strong>.</p>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/IIZ1I.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/IIZ1I.png" alt="enter image description here" /></a></p>
<p>Excerpt from the Ming Dynasty publication 《洪武正韻》, which details the speech of <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_(late_imperial_lingua_franca)" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Ming-era Mandarin</a>. The dictionary gives the <em>Fanqie</em> of 瑞 as 殊偽切.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Whatever changed the pronunciation to <strong>r-</strong> must have happened relatively recently...</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-08-22T06:18:27.740Z
Any idea where the Chinese translations for Switzerland and Sweden came from?
Mou某
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-08-22T08:39:59.817Z
@user3306356 the name of Sweden supposedly was made up during the Qing Dynasty (see http://www.kina.cc/ac/history/sweden.htm). Of course, I don't know where the webmaster got the source from, so I can't confirm. However, [Draft History of Qing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_History_of_Qing) says the same thing \(see [清史稿](https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E6%B8%85%E5%8F%B2%E7%A8%BF/%E5%8D%B7159)\)
dROOOze
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-08-21T15:18:06.317Z
2019-08-22T01:04:57.547Z
2020-06-17T09:50:11.587Z
dROOOze
<p>So, my real question is: did 瑞 used to be pronounced <em>suì</em> in 官话?</p>

<p>My roundabout way at getting to this is from the transliteration of Switzerland.</p>

<hr>

<p>Let's look at Chengduese.《现代汉语方言音库 • 成都话音档》records 瑞 with two pronunciations. One being:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>zuei²¹³</p>
</blockquote>

<p>which could be roughly written in faux-"pinyin" as <em>rui</em>; which approximately (details aside) matches most MSM pronunciations.</p>

<p>and:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>suei²¹³</p>
</blockquote>

<p>which is essentially (for our purposes here) <em>sui</em>.</p>

<hr>

<p>Now, the rule of thumb for 老派 Chengduese is that names and places are read <em>sui</em> and not <em>rui</em>. Which would make the pronunciation of 瑞士 something more akin to <em>sui si</em> - which sounds much closer to the actual pronunciation of Switzerland. What makes for an even better case for this pronunciation is a comparison to Japanese. The Japanese pronunciation of Switzerland is Suisu (スイス) and it's Ateji (当て字) is <strong>瑞西</strong>.</p>

<hr>

<p>How was Switzerland transliterated into Chinese? Was it through some topolect -or- did 瑞 originally carry the pronunciation <em>sui</em>?</p>

<p>edit: I supposed 瑞典 (Sweden) might also be an interesting case to look into - with similar <em>sui/swe</em> sounds.</p>

<p>edit #2: Looking at <a href="https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E7%91%9E" rel="noreferrer">wiktionary</a> Min nan/Hakka/Cantonese all seem to be much closer to <em>sui</em> than <em>rui</em> also.</p>

<p>edit #3: Wiktionary’s entry for 瑞士 does confirm some things:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>From French Suisse, borrowed through a southern Chinese dialect (where 瑞 is pronounced with an s- initial). See also 瑞典 (Ruìdiǎn).</p>
</blockquote>

<p>But it’s sorely lacking specifics.</p>

<p>edit #4: <a href="http://blueiris4.lofter.com/post/2e6b70_59a85f1" rel="noreferrer">apparently</a> 山东 topolect also reads 瑞 as sui.</p>

<p>edit #5: Grand Ricci also gives the pronunciation: shuì.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-08-21T10:42:49.847Z
zdic has for 瑞:  [海陆腔] sui5 sui5 [客语拼音字汇] sui4 [陆丰腔] sui6 [东莞腔] sui3 [台湾四县腔] sui5 [客英字典] sui5 sui5 [宝安腔] sui5 [梅县腔] shui5 [沙头角腔] sui5
Pedroski
<pronunciation>
How was Switzerland transliterated into Chinese?
# How was Switzerland transliterated into Chinese?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2019-08-21)

So, my real question is: did 瑞 used to be pronounced *suì* in 官话?

My roundabout way at getting to this is from the transliteration of Switzerland.

---

Let's look at Chengduese.《现代汉语方言音库 • 成都话音档》records 瑞 with two pronunciations. One being:

> zuei²¹³

which could be roughly written in faux-"pinyin" as *rui*; which approximately (details aside) matches most MSM pronunciations.

and:

> suei²¹³

which is essentially (for our purposes here) *sui*.

---

Now, the rule of thumb for 老派 Chengduese is that names and places are read *sui* and not *rui*. Which would make the pronunciation of 瑞士 something more akin to *sui si* - which sounds much closer to the actual pronunciation of Switzerland. What makes for an even better case for this pronunciation is a comparison to Japanese. The Japanese pronunciation of Switzerland is Suisu (スイス) and it's Ateji (当て字) is **瑞西**.

---

How was Switzerland transliterated into Chinese? Was it through some topolect -or- did 瑞 originally carry the pronunciation *sui*?

edit: I supposed 瑞典 (Sweden) might also be an interesting case to look into - with similar *sui/swe* sounds.

edit #2: Looking at [wiktionary](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E7%91%9E) Min nan/Hakka/Cantonese all seem to be much closer to *sui* than *rui* also.

edit #3: Wiktionary’s entry for 瑞士 does confirm some things:

> From French Suisse, borrowed through a southern Chinese dialect (where 瑞 is pronounced with an s- initial). See also 瑞典 (Ruìdiǎn).

But it’s sorely lacking specifics.

edit #4: [apparently](http://blueiris4.lofter.com/post/2e6b70_59a85f1) 山东 topolect also reads 瑞 as sui.

edit #5: Grand Ricci also gives the pronunciation: shuì.

**Tags:** pronunciation

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: zdic has for 瑞:  [海陆腔] sui5 sui5 [客语拼音字汇] sui4 [陆丰腔] sui6 [东莞腔] sui3 [台湾四县腔] sui5 [客英字典] sui5 sui5 [宝安腔] sui5 [梅县腔] shui5 [沙头角腔] sui5  

---

## 1 answers

### Answer by username_2 on 2019-08-21. Score: 10 | Accepted answer

> Did 瑞 used to be pronounced suì in 官話?

It was pronounced far closer to **suì** than today’s **ruì**, and more than enough to warrant the use of 瑞 as a transcription for *Switzerland* or *Sweden*.

> [![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/VOGbf.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/VOGbf.png)
>
> Excerpt from
> 元・周德清[《中原音韻》](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhongyuan_Yinyun),
> detailing the phonology of 13th Century Central Plains speech, a.k.a.
> [Old Mandarin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Mandarin). The
> characters 睡, 稅, 說, and 瑞 are pronounced identically. The expected
> Mandarin reflex of 瑞 is **shuì**.
>
> [![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/IIZ1I.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/IIZ1I.png)
>
> Excerpt from the Ming Dynasty publication 《洪武正韻》, which details the speech of [Ming-era Mandarin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_(late_imperial_lingua_franca)). The dictionary gives the *Fanqie* of 瑞 as 殊偽切.

Whatever changed the pronunciation to **r-** must have happened relatively recently...

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Any idea where the Chinese translations for Switzerland and Sweden came from?  
> **username_2**: @user3306356 the name of Sweden supposedly was made up during the Qing Dynasty (see http://www.kina.cc/ac/history/sweden.htm). Of course, I don't know where the webmaster got the source from, so I can't confirm. However, [Draft History of Qing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_History_of_Qing) says the same thing \(see [清史稿](https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E6%B8%85%E5%8F%B2%E7%A8%BF/%E5%8D%B7159)\)  

---

