<p>I have reservations about the categorisation of</p>

<p><kbd>商<br>甲<br><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/lEnID.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/lEnID.png" alt="enter image description here"></a><br>後2.16.4<br>合集17103</kbd></p>

<p>as 「烕」 as given by 中華語文知識庫 - that is a reading given directly by 《甲骨文合集》. The right hand side component of the character is 「殳」 , as given by other oracle bone characters with those components:</p>

<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/ZaEVK.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/ZaEVK.png" alt="enter image description here"></a></p>

<p>The evidence for reading 「炈」 as 「烕」 for 合集17103 is very minimal; it is not really possible to gain any idea of meaning from this fragment.</p>

<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/Jd6fkm.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/Jd6fkm.png" alt="enter image description here"></a></p>

<p><em>The previous character is probably</em> 鼎 (貞).</p>

<hr>

<p>Pending on more evidence, I would suggest treating 「烕」 (<strong>/*m̥et/</strong>) rather than 「炈」 as the original form, and 「戌」 (<strong>/*s.mi[t]/</strong>) as just a phonetic component. Reading 「戌」 as semantic forces an interpretation like <em>destruction by military</em>, definitely excluding an original meaning like <em>extinguishing a fire</em>, and you'll have to go through the original texts on bronzes to see if that interpretation matches the text. </p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-05-27T01:36:28.237Z
2020-05-27T01:36:28.237Z
dROOOze
<p>The original meaning of 滅 is often said to be <em>to extinguish a fire</em>.</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>《易·大過》過涉滅頂。<strong>又火熄也。</strong></p>
</blockquote>

<p>And if the original form of 滅 is 烕, then the reason 水 was added to 烕 seems fairly straightforward. To me, the confusion arises from the role of the component that resembles 戌. The oracle bone form of 烕 looks like 火 + 戉, rather than 火 + 戌, so my guess is that sources that say 戉 was later corrupted into 戌 are correct. I'm hoping that someone with a more conclusive answer can explain, but from the research I've done so far, some explanations I've seen for 戉's role in 烕 are:</p>

<ol>
<li>戉 is phonetic. My knowledge of phonetics is rather limited, but looking at the OC reconstructions of 戉 and 烕, they don't appear similar enough to convince me 戉 is phonetic (hopefully someone can provide more details on this). 烕 also has the pronunciation that corresponds to <em>xue</em> in Mandarin, but I don't know if that is related or not.</li>
<li>戉 is semantic (not mutually exclusive with 1.). This is usually explained as using some kind of tool to extinguish a fire.</li>
<li>戉 was phoneticized into 戌. At a glance, the OC reconstruction of 戌 looks closer to 烕, but again, my knowledge of phonetics is too limited to make any meaningful conclusions.</li>
<li>戉 was replaced with an similar or equivalent semantic component 戌 (not mutually exclusive with 2. or 3.).</li>
</ol>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-05-26T12:18:46.490Z
May I ask where you got an oracle bone form of 烕? I can't seem to find one.
dROOOze
CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-05-26T15:05:12.183Z
I see two forms of 烕 on [中華語文知識庫](http://chinese-linguipedia.org/search_source_inner.html?word=%E6%BB%85) (後下18.9(合集1937) and
後下16.4(合集17103), the second of which has an additional 又). Hanziyuan also has a sample (despite the inaccurate explanations, the image samples from that site seem pretty high quality). I wasn't able to find a sample on 小學堂.
wang_xiao_ming
CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-05-26T23:34:08.197Z
I cannot see that character in [合集1937](http://www.guoxuedashi.com/jgwhj/?bhfl=1&bh=1937&jgwfl=). As for 合集17103, 小學堂's sources [categorise it as 炈](http://xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.tw/jiaguwen?kaiOrder=36019&ZiOrder=1211).
dROOOze
CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-05-27T02:38:07.287Z
Thanks for clarifying, I should've known the right-hand side of 合集17103 is 殳.
wang_xiao_ming
<glyph-origin>
Glyph origin of 滅
# Glyph origin of 滅

(Asked by: username_0 on 2020-05-25)

The original meaning of 滅 is often said to be *to extinguish a fire*.

> 《易·大過》過涉滅頂。**又火熄也。**

And if the original form of 滅 is 烕, then the reason 水 was added to 烕 seems fairly straightforward. To me, the confusion arises from the role of the component that resembles 戌. The oracle bone form of 烕 looks like 火 + 戉, rather than 火 + 戌, so my guess is that sources that say 戉 was later corrupted into 戌 are correct. I'm hoping that someone with a more conclusive answer can explain, but from the research I've done so far, some explanations I've seen for 戉's role in 烕 are:

1. 戉 is phonetic. My knowledge of phonetics is rather limited, but looking at the OC reconstructions of 戉 and 烕, they don't appear similar enough to convince me 戉 is phonetic (hopefully someone can provide more details on this). 烕 also has the pronunciation that corresponds to *xue* in Mandarin, but I don't know if that is related or not.
2. 戉 is semantic (not mutually exclusive with 1.). This is usually explained as using some kind of tool to extinguish a fire.
3. 戉 was phoneticized into 戌. At a glance, the OC reconstruction of 戌 looks closer to 烕, but again, my knowledge of phonetics is too limited to make any meaningful conclusions.
4. 戉 was replaced with an similar or equivalent semantic component 戌 (not mutually exclusive with 2. or 3.).

**Tags:** glyph-origin

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: May I ask where you got an oracle bone form of 烕? I can't seem to find one.  
> **username_0**: I see two forms of 烕 on [中華語文知識庫](http://chinese-linguipedia.org/search_source_inner.html?word=%E6%BB%85) (後下18.9(合集1937) and 後下16.4(合集17103), the second of which has an additional 又). Hanziyuan also has a sample (despite the inaccurate explanations, the image samples from that site seem pretty high quality). I wasn't able to find a sample on 小學堂.  
> **username_1**: I cannot see that character in [合集1937](http://www.guoxuedashi.com/jgwhj/?bhfl=1&bh=1937&jgwfl=). As for 合集17103, 小學堂's sources [categorise it as 炈](http://xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.tw/jiaguwen?kaiOrder=36019&ZiOrder=1211).  
> **username_0**: Thanks for clarifying, I should've known the right-hand side of 合集17103 is 殳.  

---

## 1 answers

### Answer by username_1 on 2020-05-27. Score: 2 | Accepted answer

I have reservations about the categorisation of

`商  
甲  
![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/lEnID.png)  
後2.16.4  
合集17103`

as 「烕」 as given by 中華語文知識庫 - that is a reading given directly by 《甲骨文合集》. The right hand side component of the character is 「殳」 , as given by other oracle bone characters with those components:

[![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/ZaEVK.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/ZaEVK.png)

The evidence for reading 「炈」 as 「烕」 for 合集17103 is very minimal; it is not really possible to gain any idea of meaning from this fragment.

[![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/Jd6fkm.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/Jd6fkm.png)

*The previous character is probably* 鼎 (貞).

---

Pending on more evidence, I would suggest treating 「烕」 (**/\*m̥et/**) rather than 「炈」 as the original form, and 「戌」 (**/\*s.mi[t]/**) as just a phonetic component. Reading 「戌」 as semantic forces an interpretation like *destruction by military*, definitely excluding an original meaning like *extinguishing a fire*, and you'll have to go through the original texts on bronzes to see if that interpretation matches the text.


---

