<p>Chinese has many different types of idioms, I think five different types off the top of my head.  The type that is commonly ((but not always)) four characters long are called chengyu.  Chengyu are always said the same way, and should be treated similarly to english short idioms, like skeleton key ((you can't just say skeleton or just say key, or say key skeleton)). That said, some chengyu have extremely similar alternatives.</p>
<p>As an example of a chinese idiom that isn't a chengyu, look at 有錢難買後悔藥 there is no medicine for regret that you can just go buy with some money ((similar tone to too little too late in english)) or 人望幸福，樹望春 humans look forward to happiness just like trees look forward to springtime ((aka seeking happiness is natural thing)). That last mentioned example is a type of idiom that is very commonly shortened to only say the first part and imply the second half ((like in english &quot;well you can lead a horse to water...&quot; and everyone knows the rest)).</p>
<p>Hope this helps （＾ν＾）</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-03-22T17:23:03.707Z
您说的三种，是不是指；成语，谚语，歇后语。
PdotWang
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-04-06T22:45:16.377Z
@PdotWang 諺語 、成語 、歇後語、名言、俗話were the five off the top of my head then, although they may overlap with each other sometimes :)
zagrycha
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-03-20T18:29:46.383Z
2024-03-20T18:29:46.383Z
zagrycha
<p>Most idiomatic expressions are fixed in both languages.</p>
<p>It's true that, semantically, chengyus are occasionally equivalent to stand-alone, sentence-long proverbs in English, which might allow for different variations and inflections. Grammatically, however, they are almost always used the way we use metaphorical or idiomatic expressions, such as &quot;skeleton in the closet&quot;, &quot;road to Damascus&quot;, &quot;throw a spanner in the works&quot;, &quot;be a fish out of water&quot;, etc. In that sense, except for the fact that we need to allow for verb inflection whenever verbs are involved (eg throw, throws, thrown, etc), English idioms are just as fixed as Chinese chengyus are.</p>
<p>Back to your examples, the chengyu &quot;<strong>井底之蛙</strong>&quot; is just as fixed as the idiom &quot;<strong>the cat [is] out of the bag</strong>&quot;: in both cases, those 4~6 words are invariable and (near-)inseparable.</p>
<p>To illustrate, well-formed variations on the English idiom would be:</p>
<ul>
<li>Well, now + <strong>the cat [is] out of the bag</strong></li>
<li>Don't let + <strong>the cat out of the bag</strong></li>
<li>You'll end up letting + <strong>the cat out of the bag</strong></li>
</ul>
<p>Similarly, well-formed usage patterns of that Chinese chengyu would be:</p>
<ul>
<li>这真是 + <strong>井底之蛙</strong></li>
<li>我很像 + <strong>井底之蛙</strong></li>
<li>你最好不要 + <strong>井底之蛙</strong></li>
</ul>
<p>Can variations ever be made <em>inside</em> of those fixed 4~6-word-short idioms, whether English or Chinese? They wouldn't be <em>well formed</em>, but may at times work for rhetorical effect, if only in contexts where the intended word-play is understandable. You really need to have a good command of the language to know what can be changed and how (indeed, your proposed variations on &quot;the cat [is] out of the bag&quot; do not work). Plus, many Chinese chengyu are of the &quot;road to Damascus&quot; type, in the sense that they contain proper names or archaic monosyllables that cannot be modified or cannot be understood outside of a certain word order, so variations may work on some chengyus more than others.</p>
<p>To force an example, in familiar company, as you're all watching a dog being particularly obtuse, you could potentially joke that the dog is being a &quot;井底之<strong>狗</strong>&quot;. Similarly, in English you might playfully warn someone not to &quot;let the cat out of <em><strong>that big</strong></em> bag <em><strong>of yours</strong></em>&quot; (to imply they have a big mouth). However, it's honestly touch and go whether such ill-formed play on words ever works and, where it does, it tends to work better in writing to avoid ambiguities.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-03-22T14:06:33.487Z
2024-03-22T14:58:58.257Z
2024-03-22T14:58:58.257Z
Sanchuan
<p>Rule of thumbs:</p>
<ol>
<li>Don't modify the Chinese idioms as it can completely change the meaning.</li>
<li>In 99% percentage of time in using Chinese idioms, I say all the characters (4 chars in general, a few have more characters).</li>
<li>Interestingly, in your example &quot;井底之蛙&quot;, you may say someone is &quot;井底蛙&quot; and others should know what you mean.</li>
</ol>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-03-26T04:50:00.507Z
2024-03-26T10:41:02.383Z
2024-03-26T10:41:02.383Z
mhcpan
<blockquote>
<p>How freely can you modify the idiom, what are the rules (if any)?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Usually we try not to modify, unless we think it’s necessary. If we can say 他正在对牛弹琴, then why 他对牛正在弹琴?</p>
<blockquote>
<p>If you can't modify it, why not?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>It’s unnecessary and it sounds weird. Imagine “good luck and break both legs”.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>And what happens if you did anyways?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Usually it’s weird. 一尘不染 -&gt; 他的房间一尘<strong>也</strong>不染。</p>
<p>Sometimes it’s clear. 借刀杀人 -&gt; 为了消灭另一个毒贩，他选择借<strong>警察的</strong>刀杀人。</p>
<p>Sometimes it fits better. 一石二鸟 -&gt; 这是一石<strong>三</strong>鸟之计。</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-03-26T08:56:08.490Z
2024-03-26T08:56:08.490Z
kyc
<p>When using idioms that are based on historical allusion, we usually don't modify any word, For example,  <a href="https://cantoneseplus.com/word/26870" rel="nofollow noreferrer">煮豆燃萁</a> (taken from an actual poem) and <a href="https://cantoneseplus.com/word/217676" rel="nofollow noreferrer">一時瑜亮</a> (refers to two famous historical figures). Exceptions are rare.</p>
<p>Some common expressions may have a few variants</p>
<p>Example:  <a href="http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/dictionary/words/60794/" rel="nofollow noreferrer">長年累月</a>，</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Variants: 成年累月, 經年累月, 積年累月, 常年累月, 終年累月, 窮年累月, 窮年累世, 經旬累月. <a href="http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/phorum/read.php?1,130968" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Details</a></p>
</blockquote>
<p>We are allowed to rearrange the order in idioms that contain two independent but similar parts for literary effect</p>
<p>Example:</p>
<p>窮追猛究 --&gt; 猛究窮追</p>
<p>窮追猛打 --&gt; 猛打窮追</p>
<p>斷袖分桃 --&gt; 分桃斷袖</p>
<p>驚天動地 --&gt; 動地驚天</p>
<p>人強馬壯 --&gt; 馬壯人強</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-03-20T17:18:21.163Z
2024-03-20T17:35:23.107Z
2024-03-20T17:35:23.107Z
Tang Ho
<p>I got some idioms from ChatGPT, like 井底之蛙 (jǐng dǐ zhī wā): &quot;frog in the bottom of the well&quot;. Here we have:</p>
<p>他从未离开过家乡，真是一个井底之蛙。</p>
<p>Literal Gloss:</p>
<ul>
<li>他 (tā): He</li>
<li>从未 (cóng wèi): never</li>
<li>离开 (lí kāi): leave</li>
<li>过 (guò): (particle indicating past experience)</li>
<li>家乡 (jiā xiāng): hometown</li>
<li>真是 (zhēn shì): truly is</li>
<li>一个 (yí gè): one</li>
<li>井底之蛙 (jǐng dǐ zhī wā): frog at the bottom of the well</li>
</ul>
<p>Translation: He has never left his hometown; he truly is a frog at the bottom of the well. (From ChatGPT, sorry if it's incorrect, it at least provides me the gist).</p>
<p>Another one is 对牛弹琴 (duì niú tán qín) (play the lute to a cow).</p>
<p>My question is, do you always say these 4 characters when pronouncing idioms (or however many characters there are)? Or can you modify the idiom in some ways, like you do in English?</p>
<p>For example, in English, we have &quot;let the cat out of the bag&quot;. You can modify the exact words by saying:</p>
<ul>
<li>You keep on &quot;<strong>letting</strong> the <strong>cats</strong> out of the bag!&quot; (slight modification of words)</li>
<li>You want to &quot;have cats coming out of the bag?&quot; (total modification of words)</li>
<li>Cats keep on flowing out of the bag. (Keeps the key things, cat and bag, but changes everything else.).</li>
<li>Cats come out of the box (this doesn't keep the meaning now...).</li>
</ul>
<p>Or in Chinese, would you literally need to say those 7 words, <code>let the cat out of the bag</code> exactly, to make sure the idiom is known?</p>
<p>Basically, how freely can you modify the idiom, what are the rules (if any)? If you can't modify it, why not? And what happens if you did anyways?</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-03-20T18:33:51.057Z
quote: "他从未离开过家乡，真是一个井底之蛙" 諸葛亮不出山也沒人敢說他是井底蛙
Tang Ho
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-03-21T11:14:35.043Z
For what it's worth, I don't think any of your English modifications work, except *maybe* the first one.
AAM111
<idioms>
Do you *always* say Chinese idioms the exact same way (unlike English)?
# Do you *always* say Chinese idioms the exact same way (unlike English)?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2024-03-20)

I got some idioms from ChatGPT, like 井底之蛙 (jǐng dǐ zhī wā): "frog in the bottom of the well". Here we have:

他从未离开过家乡，真是一个井底之蛙。

Literal Gloss:

* 他 (tā): He
* 从未 (cóng wèi): never
* 离开 (lí kāi): leave
* 过 (guò): (particle indicating past experience)
* 家乡 (jiā xiāng): hometown
* 真是 (zhēn shì): truly is
* 一个 (yí gè): one
* 井底之蛙 (jǐng dǐ zhī wā): frog at the bottom of the well

Translation: He has never left his hometown; he truly is a frog at the bottom of the well. (From ChatGPT, sorry if it's incorrect, it at least provides me the gist).

Another one is 对牛弹琴 (duì niú tán qín) (play the lute to a cow).

My question is, do you always say these 4 characters when pronouncing idioms (or however many characters there are)? Or can you modify the idiom in some ways, like you do in English?

For example, in English, we have "let the cat out of the bag". You can modify the exact words by saying:

* You keep on "**letting** the **cats** out of the bag!" (slight modification of words)
* You want to "have cats coming out of the bag?" (total modification of words)
* Cats keep on flowing out of the bag. (Keeps the key things, cat and bag, but changes everything else.).
* Cats come out of the box (this doesn't keep the meaning now...).

Or in Chinese, would you literally need to say those 7 words, `let the cat out of the bag` exactly, to make sure the idiom is known?

Basically, how freely can you modify the idiom, what are the rules (if any)? If you can't modify it, why not? And what happens if you did anyways?

**Tags:** idioms

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: quote: "他从未离开过家乡，真是一个井底之蛙" 諸葛亮不出山也沒人敢說他是井底蛙  
> **username_2**: For what it's worth, I don't think any of your English modifications work, except *maybe* the first one.  

---

## 5 answers

### Answer by username_3 on 2024-03-20. Score: 3

Chinese has many different types of idioms, I think five different types off the top of my head. The type that is commonly ((but not always)) four characters long are called chengyu. Chengyu are always said the same way, and should be treated similarly to english short idioms, like skeleton key ((you can't just say skeleton or just say key, or say key skeleton)). That said, some chengyu have extremely similar alternatives.

As an example of a chinese idiom that isn't a chengyu, look at 有錢難買後悔藥 there is no medicine for regret that you can just go buy with some money ((similar tone to too little too late in english)) or 人望幸福，樹望春 humans look forward to happiness just like trees look forward to springtime ((aka seeking happiness is natural thing)). That last mentioned example is a type of idiom that is very commonly shortened to only say the first part and imply the second half ((like in english "well you can lead a horse to water..." and everyone knows the rest)).

Hope this helps （＾ν＾）

> **Comments:**
> **username_4**: 您说的三种，是不是指；成语，谚语，歇后语。  
> **username_3**: @username_4 諺語 、成語 、歇後語、名言、俗話were the five off the top of my head then, although they may overlap with each other sometimes :)  

---

### Answer by username_5 on 2024-03-22. Score: 2

Most idiomatic expressions are fixed in both languages.

It's true that, semantically, chengyus are occasionally equivalent to stand-alone, sentence-long proverbs in English, which might allow for different variations and inflections. Grammatically, however, they are almost always used the way we use metaphorical or idiomatic expressions, such as "skeleton in the closet", "road to Damascus", "throw a spanner in the works", "be a fish out of water", etc. In that sense, except for the fact that we need to allow for verb inflection whenever verbs are involved (eg throw, throws, thrown, etc), English idioms are just as fixed as Chinese chengyus are.

Back to your examples, the chengyu "**井底之蛙**" is just as fixed as the idiom "**the cat [is] out of the bag**": in both cases, those 4~6 words are invariable and (near-)inseparable.

To illustrate, well-formed variations on the English idiom would be:

* Well, now + **the cat [is] out of the bag**
* Don't let + **the cat out of the bag**
* You'll end up letting + **the cat out of the bag**

Similarly, well-formed usage patterns of that Chinese chengyu would be:

* 这真是 + **井底之蛙**
* 我很像 + **井底之蛙**
* 你最好不要 + **井底之蛙**

Can variations ever be made *inside* of those fixed 4~6-word-short idioms, whether English or Chinese? They wouldn't be *well formed*, but may at times work for rhetorical effect, if only in contexts where the intended word-play is understandable. You really need to have a good command of the language to know what can be changed and how (indeed, your proposed variations on "the cat [is] out of the bag" do not work). Plus, many Chinese chengyu are of the "road to Damascus" type, in the sense that they contain proper names or archaic monosyllables that cannot be modified or cannot be understood outside of a certain word order, so variations may work on some chengyus more than others.

To force an example, in familiar company, as you're all watching a dog being particularly obtuse, you could potentially joke that the dog is being a "井底之**狗**". Similarly, in English you might playfully warn someone not to "let the cat out of ***that big*** bag ***of yours***" (to imply they have a big mouth). However, it's honestly touch and go whether such ill-formed play on words ever works and, where it does, it tends to work better in writing to avoid ambiguities.


---

### Answer by username_6 on 2024-03-26. Score: 2

Rule of thumbs:

1. Don't modify the Chinese idioms as it can completely change the meaning.
2. In 99% percentage of time in using Chinese idioms, I say all the characters (4 chars in general, a few have more characters).
3. Interestingly, in your example "井底之蛙", you may say someone is "井底蛙" and others should know what you mean.


---

### Answer by username_7 on 2024-03-26. Score: 1

> How freely can you modify the idiom, what are the rules (if any)?

Usually we try not to modify, unless we think it’s necessary. If we can say 他正在对牛弹琴, then why 他对牛正在弹琴?

> If you can't modify it, why not?

It’s unnecessary and it sounds weird. Imagine “good luck and break both legs”.

> And what happens if you did anyways?

Usually it’s weird. 一尘不染 -> 他的房间一尘**也**不染。

Sometimes it’s clear. 借刀杀人 -> 为了消灭另一个毒贩，他选择借**警察的**刀杀人。

Sometimes it fits better. 一石二鸟 -> 这是一石**三**鸟之计。


---

### Answer by username_1 on 2024-03-20. Score: 1

When using idioms that are based on historical allusion, we usually don't modify any word, For example, [煮豆燃萁](https://cantoneseplus.com/word/26870) (taken from an actual poem) and [一時瑜亮](https://cantoneseplus.com/word/217676) (refers to two famous historical figures). Exceptions are rare.

Some common expressions may have a few variants

Example: [長年累月](http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/dictionary/words/60794/)，

> Variants: 成年累月, 經年累月, 積年累月, 常年累月, 終年累月, 窮年累月, 窮年累世, 經旬累月. [Details](http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/phorum/read.php?1,130968)

We are allowed to rearrange the order in idioms that contain two independent but similar parts for literary effect

Example:

窮追猛究 --> 猛究窮追

窮追猛打 --> 猛打窮追

斷袖分桃 --> 分桃斷袖

驚天動地 --> 動地驚天

人強馬壯 --> 馬壯人強


---

