<p>In the earliest times, 荤菜 means 5 kinds of vegetables with a pungent flavor: garlic, leeks..., Buddhism prohibits eating them.</p>
<p>Later, Buddhism in China forbids eating meat. 荤菜 beginning to include meat.</p>
<p>Now, 荤菜 refers to meat.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-07-21T09:45:22.227Z
2023-07-21T09:45:22.227Z
sfy
<blockquote>
<p>why isn't it called 肉菜?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>This isn't the right way to think about it. Rather, there is a word 「葷菜」 which can take on the meaning of <em>meat dishes</em> in some contexts, if you need to translate it into English. In other contexts, 「葷菜」 may just mean dishes which have a potent smell or flavour, which is probably its original meaning.</p>
<hr />
<p>「葷」 (<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstructions_of_Old_Chinese#Baxter%E2%80%93Sagart_(2014)" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Baxter-Sagart OC</a>: <strong>/*qʰu[n]/</strong>, <em>strong-smelling vegetable</em> &gt; <em>strong-smelling dishes</em>) is a standard semanto-phonetic character, comprised of semantic 「艸」 (<em>vegetation</em>) and phonetic 「軍」 (<strong>/*[k]ʷər/</strong>).</p>
<p>Note that <strong>/*qʰu[n]/</strong> is also the reconstruction of 「熏」 (<em>smoke</em>). This indicates that 「葷」 and 「熏」 are <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognate" rel="nofollow noreferrer">cognate</a>, and the original meaning of 「葷」 was something to do with a strong smell. See the <a href="https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Sino-Tibetan/k%C9%99w-n/t#Descendants" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Proto-Sino-Tibetan reconstructions</a> for other cognates and modern descendants.</p>
<p>「葷菜」 sometimes taking on the meaning of <em>meat dishes</em> is just a semantic extension, likely a deliberate contrast to lighter-flavoured or blander dishes, of which vegetarian dishes (「素食」) are commonly associated with.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-06-25T21:41:47.830Z
When I looked up the etymology it said 荤 was originally garlic. Is that right?
Pedroski
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-06-25T07:22:16.937Z
2023-06-25T07:22:16.937Z
dROOOze
<p>荤菜的原料可以是肉，也可以是动物油脂，内脏，血液，也可以是蛋、奶。对于部分极端素食主义者，葱姜蒜也算是“荤”。</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-06-25T15:10:33.840Z
2023-06-25T15:10:33.840Z
Sam Zhang
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/eEC4A.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/eEC4A.png" alt="Visual etymology" /></a></p>
<p><strong>荤</strong> (T.: <strong>葷</strong>) is a phonosemantic character composed of two components:</p>
<ul>
<li><p><strong>艹</strong>, which is an abbreviation form of component 艸, is a depiction of two grass plants meaning &quot;grass&quot;. Here, <strong>艹</strong> (grass) is used as a meaning component.</p>
</li>
<li><p><strong>军</strong> (or <strong>軍</strong> in traditional) was originally composed of sound component 匀 yún (here abbreviated to 冖 in the modern form) and meaning component 车 &quot;chariot&quot;, originally meaning &quot;military unit&quot;. Here, <strong>军/軍</strong> (jūn) is used a sound component.</p>
</li>
</ul>
<p>The original meaning of this character is <em>&quot;strong-smelling vegetable&quot;</em> which later the meaning extended to <em>&quot;non-vegetarian food&quot;</em> and <em>&quot;meat diet&quot;</em>.</p>
<p>I hope this explanation helped you out on the etymology for 荤. :)</p>
<p>Sources used:</p>
<ul>
<li>ccamc.org (古今文字集成)</li>
<li>Dong Chinese</li>
<li>Outlier Dictionary of Chinese Characters</li>
<li>漢語多功能字庫</li>
<li>說文解字</li>
</ul>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-07-21T04:09:29.737Z
2023-07-21T04:20:25.070Z
2023-07-21T04:20:25.070Z
prismcool
<p>“荤”这个字和“肉”在含义上有很多不同的地方：</p>
<ul>
<li>点菜时，所谓“肉类”大家往往默认指猪牛羊和鸡鸭等的肉。鱼虾贝等水产品或猪肝等动物内脏一般不会算作“肉类”。但他们属于荤菜。</li>
<li>有时候“肉”这个字特指“猪肉”。例如“鱼香肉丝”正常情况下是猪肉，如果是鸡肉一般餐厅会将其写作“鱼香鸡丝”。（仅限不是回教的餐厅）</li>
<li>有些售卖快餐盒饭的店铺，荤菜指与素菜相对的所有菜。店家会根据几个荤菜几个素菜来计算价格。在这种场合下，一般根据原材料的成本，素菜指没有动物制品的餐食，当然很多时候鸡蛋或者血豆腐也算作素菜。有些店铺甚至会将“肉末豆腐”这类肉含量较少的菜也按素菜计算价格。</li>
<li>对于一些佛教信众，大蒜（或者其他一些葱亚科下的植物）属于荤，是宗教忌口的。</li>
<li>无论你对素的定义是佛教素还是蛋奶素，都不影响荤是与素对应的概念，即所有不是素菜的菜人们统称荤菜。但肉和素没有这种对应关系。</li>
</ul>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/YrmzX.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/YrmzX.png" alt="某外卖软件上餐厅菜单的截图" /></a></p>
<p>例如从上面这个餐厅菜单的截图上来看，韭菜和鸡蛋在这家餐厅都算作素菜。</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-07-12T04:25:45.227Z
2023-07-13T07:21:47.047Z
2023-07-13T07:21:47.047Z
tsh
<p>Other than meat, 荤 includes some vegetables that have a strong stinky/acrid smell such as onion, ginger, leek...etc.</p>
<ul>
<li><p>荤，<strong>臭菜</strong>也。——《说文》</p>
</li>
<li><p>荤，<strong>辛菜</strong>也。——《苍颉篇》</p>
</li>
<li><p>膳荤。——《仪礼·士相见礼》。注:“<strong>辛物，葱韭之属</strong>。”</p>
</li>
</ul>
<p><strong>素菜</strong> - All vegetable dishes except those having the characteristics of 荤菜.</p>
<p><a href="https://www.zdic.net/hans/%E8%8D%A4" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://www.zdic.net/hans/%E8%8D%A4</a></p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-06-25T05:27:34.917Z
Quote:- "...vegetables that have a strong stinky/acrid smell such as onion, ginger, leek...etc." Yes, strictly speaking, when cooking "Chinese Vegetarian dishes, (素菜), no garlic should be used as vegetarianism means not only abstinence from meat, but "strong, potent" flavors as well because it is believed that these flavors, (especially "animalistic" odor and flavor of meat), when ingested into the human body would somehow imbue it with the same animalistic characteristics, with a tendency to quick anger. Years ago I went vegetarian for a while, and I felt nauseous from the odor of meat.
Wayne Cheah
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-06-25T05:45:35.233Z
Also, as far as possible, to eat vegetables that are white in color, or have a lot of white. Actually the word 素 also means "white" So, it seems that the color white being a color representative of "purity, sinlessness, innocence" is universally applicable.
Wayne Cheah
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-06-25T03:50:49.053Z
2023-06-25T03:56:14.583Z
2023-06-25T03:56:14.583Z
r13
<p>My understanding is that 荤菜 means &quot;meat dish&quot; in Chinese. But I don't understand why.</p>
<p>I read there is a saying &quot;荤素搭配&quot;, which draws similarities to Yin and Yang.</p>
<p>If someone knows and can further explain the origin of the 荤 character it would be much appreciated. Thanks.</p>

<translation><meaning><glyph-origin>
What does 荤菜 mean and why isn't it called 肉菜?
# What does 荤菜 mean and why isn't it called 肉菜?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2023-06-25)

My understanding is that 荤菜 means "meat dish" in Chinese. But I don't understand why.

I read there is a saying "荤素搭配", which draws similarities to Yin and Yang.

If someone knows and can further explain the origin of the 荤 character it would be much appreciated. Thanks.

**Tags:** translation, meaning, glyph-origin


---

## 6 answers

### Answer by username_1 on 2023-07-21. Score: 2

In the earliest times, 荤菜 means 5 kinds of vegetables with a pungent flavor: garlic, leeks..., Buddhism prohibits eating them.

Later, Buddhism in China forbids eating meat. 荤菜 beginning to include meat.

Now, 荤菜 refers to meat.


---

### Answer by username_2 on 2023-06-25. Score: 2

> why isn't it called 肉菜?

This isn't the right way to think about it. Rather, there is a word 「葷菜」 which can take on the meaning of *meat dishes* in some contexts, if you need to translate it into English. In other contexts, 「葷菜」 may just mean dishes which have a potent smell or flavour, which is probably its original meaning.

---

「葷」 ([Baxter-Sagart OC](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstructions_of_Old_Chinese#Baxter%E2%80%93Sagart_(2014)): **/\*qʰu[n]/**, *strong-smelling vegetable* > *strong-smelling dishes*) is a standard semanto-phonetic character, comprised of semantic 「艸」 (*vegetation*) and phonetic 「軍」 (**/\*[k]ʷər/**).

Note that **/\*qʰu[n]/** is also the reconstruction of 「熏」 (*smoke*). This indicates that 「葷」 and 「熏」 are [cognate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognate), and the original meaning of 「葷」 was something to do with a strong smell. See the [Proto-Sino-Tibetan reconstructions](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Sino-Tibetan/k%C9%99w-n/t#Descendants) for other cognates and modern descendants.

「葷菜」 sometimes taking on the meaning of *meat dishes* is just a semantic extension, likely a deliberate contrast to lighter-flavoured or blander dishes, of which vegetarian dishes (「素食」) are commonly associated with.

> **Comments:**
> **username_3**: When I looked up the etymology it said 荤 was originally garlic. Is that right?  

---

### Answer by username_4 on 2023-06-25. Score: 1

荤菜的原料可以是肉，也可以是动物油脂，内脏，血液，也可以是蛋、奶。对于部分极端素食主义者，葱姜蒜也算是“荤”。


---

### Answer by username_5 on 2023-07-21. Score: 1

[![Visual etymology](https://i.sstatic.net/eEC4A.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/eEC4A.png)

**荤** (T.: **葷**) is a phonosemantic character composed of two components:

* **艹**, which is an abbreviation form of component 艸, is a depiction of two grass plants meaning "grass". Here, **艹** (grass) is used as a meaning component.
* **军** (or **軍** in traditional) was originally composed of sound component 匀 yún (here abbreviated to 冖 in the modern form) and meaning component 车 "chariot", originally meaning "military unit". Here, **军/軍** (jūn) is used a sound component.

The original meaning of this character is *"strong-smelling vegetable"* which later the meaning extended to *"non-vegetarian food"* and *"meat diet"*.

I hope this explanation helped you out on the etymology for 荤. :)

Sources used:

* ccamc.org (古今文字集成)
* Dong Chinese
* Outlier Dictionary of Chinese Characters
* 漢語多功能字庫
* 說文解字


---

### Answer by username_6 on 2023-07-12. Score: 1

“荤”这个字和“肉”在含义上有很多不同的地方：

* 点菜时，所谓“肉类”大家往往默认指猪牛羊和鸡鸭等的肉。鱼虾贝等水产品或猪肝等动物内脏一般不会算作“肉类”。但他们属于荤菜。
* 有时候“肉”这个字特指“猪肉”。例如“鱼香肉丝”正常情况下是猪肉，如果是鸡肉一般餐厅会将其写作“鱼香鸡丝”。（仅限不是回教的餐厅）
* 有些售卖快餐盒饭的店铺，荤菜指与素菜相对的所有菜。店家会根据几个荤菜几个素菜来计算价格。在这种场合下，一般根据原材料的成本，素菜指没有动物制品的餐食，当然很多时候鸡蛋或者血豆腐也算作素菜。有些店铺甚至会将“肉末豆腐”这类肉含量较少的菜也按素菜计算价格。
* 对于一些佛教信众，大蒜（或者其他一些葱亚科下的植物）属于荤，是宗教忌口的。
* 无论你对素的定义是佛教素还是蛋奶素，都不影响荤是与素对应的概念，即所有不是素菜的菜人们统称荤菜。但肉和素没有这种对应关系。

[![某外卖软件上餐厅菜单的截图](https://i.sstatic.net/YrmzX.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/YrmzX.png)

例如从上面这个餐厅菜单的截图上来看，韭菜和鸡蛋在这家餐厅都算作素菜。


---

### Answer by username_7 on 2023-06-25. Score: 0

Other than meat, 荤 includes some vegetables that have a strong stinky/acrid smell such as onion, ginger, leek...etc.

* 荤，**臭菜**也。——《说文》
* 荤，**辛菜**也。——《苍颉篇》
* 膳荤。——《仪礼·士相见礼》。注:“**辛物，葱韭之属**。”

**素菜** - All vegetable dishes except those having the characteristics of 荤菜.

<https://www.zdic.net/hans/%E8%8D%A4>

> **Comments:**
> **username_8**: Quote:- "...vegetables that have a strong stinky/acrid smell such as onion, ginger, leek...etc." Yes, strictly speaking, when cooking "Chinese Vegetarian dishes, (素菜), no garlic should be used as vegetarianism means not only abstinence from meat, but "strong, potent" flavors as well because it is believed that these flavors, (especially "animalistic" odor and flavor of meat), when ingested into the human body would somehow imbue it with the same animalistic characteristics, with a tendency to quick anger. Years ago I went vegetarian for a while, and I felt nauseous from the odor of meat.  
> **username_8**: Also, as far as possible, to eat vegetables that are white in color, or have a lot of white. Actually the word 素 also means "white" So, it seems that the color white being a color representative of "purity, sinlessness, innocence" is universally applicable.  

---

