<p>骰子 tóu zǐ：骨制的赌具，正方形，用手抛，看落下后最上面的点数。俗称“色（shǎi）子”。</p>
<p>色 shǎi：</p>
<p>色子(即骰子) [dice]。赌具，小立方体，一般用骨头制成，六面分刻一、二、三、四、五、六点。</p>
<p>I don't think 骰 has a pronunciation shǎi, that would be 色. So I suppose some people have confused the terms as they both refer to the same thing.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-21T14:50:16.790Z
Interesting. Guifan also has a note that says: `注意 “骰”统读tóu, 不读gǔ。` It's funny that `gǔ` would also be a common misreading, while we're busy here considering `shǎi`. But of course it is, as it has part of `骨` in it. Yet, even more fascinating as "bones" (`gǔ`) is slang for dice in English. I guess dice all used to be made from animal bones?
Mou某
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-21T17:04:05.240Z
I have to say I have never heard anyone say bones for dice, but: "As a colloquial way to say "dice," it is attested from late 14c. (dice anciently were made from the knucklebones of animals)."
Pedroski
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-21T19:22:20.657Z
@Mou某 The interesting thing is "汉典" lists 股(gǔ) as the 异体字 of 骰(tóu), the reverse is true too. https://www.zdic.net/hans/%E8%82%A1
r13
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-21T20:26:26.047Z
@r13 that’s not correct. 異體字 do not cause different pronunciations, they’re variant characters representing a single underlying word or morpheme. It is only pronounced **gǔ** (Under the kangxi entry: 又【集韻】果五切，音古。股或作骰。).
dROOOze
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-21T21:42:48.780Z
@dROOOze Yes, that's why I said it (lists two words with different pronunciations as 异体字 to each other) is interesting to note. Please check the linked page.
r13
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-21T23:03:50.557Z
@r13 I don't think you understood the linked page. 股(**gǔ**) is not 異體字 of 骰(**tóu**). Two different pronunciations cannot result in 異體字. You mean, 骰(**gǔ**) may be 異體字 of 股(**gǔ**). You can see that there is no reverse relationship; 股 is never pronounced **tóu**, which strongly indicates that 骰(**tóu**) and 骰(**gǔ**) are 同形異字.
dROOOze
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-21T23:56:15.627Z
@dROOOze I understand and agree with what you have said, but in the dictionary, 股 is listed under the [異體字] block/column of 骰, as well as 骰 is listed under the [異體字] block/column of 股. I found it is quite amusing then. Note in nowhere it says 同形異字
r13
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-22T10:29:20.457Z
骰 pronounced shae / shǎi is Taiwan usage (國語 rather than 普通話). When it means "dice", 色 can also be pronounced shae / shǎi. The graphics in my answer provide excerpts from the most massive, authoritative ROC dictionary.
Robert MATTHEWS 馬學進
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-22T14:07:34.590Z
I wonder if there is a principle at work here: how do / did characters get different pronunciations??
Pedroski
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-21T12:55:49.320Z
2024-12-21T12:55:49.320Z
Pedroski
<p>Explanation from <a href="https://www.zdic.net/hans/%E9%AA%B0" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><strong>汉典</strong></a> (zdic.net/dict.cn)</p>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/9QCNMIqK.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/9QCNMIqK.png" alt="enter image description here" /></a></p>
<p><strong>ADD:</strong> Now seems the right time to reveal an odd notice in the dictionary. In the image below, see the word listed under &quot;异体字&quot;:</p>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/fnlBxN6t.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/fnlBxN6t.png" alt="enter image description here" /></a></p>
<p>Also, in reverse:</p>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/Te9588Jj.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/Te9588Jj.png" alt="enter image description here" /></a></p>
<p>Did I misunderstand something? Please feel free to comment. Thanks.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-23T16:13:01.883Z
If you check [異體字字典](https://dict.variants.moe.edu.tw/dictView.jsp?ID=51622) published by the Ministry of Education of ROC, you don't find the 骰股 combination though in 康熙字典, it does say 「又【集韻】果五切，音古。股或作骰」.
joehua
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-23T17:30:26.847Z
@joehua Does that mean that 骰=股 both in pronunciation and meaning in the ancient time?
r13
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-23T17:54:41.103Z
@joehua Also note that under the entry for 骰(tóu), 股(gǔ) is listed as its 异体字. Is that correct?
r13
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-24T12:21:32.500Z
I agree with dROOOze that to be qualified as 異體字, the pronunciation and meaning must be same in every case. This article, in 漢典, [古今字，異體字，繁簡字](https://www.zdic.net/ts/han/2019/11/829.html) says "有些字通用是有條件的，更不能認爲是異體字。例如"亡"和"無"相通，《論語·雍也》："今也則亡"（如今就沒有了）。但並不是所有用"無"的地方都可以換成"亡"。" Obviously, when 漢典 says 骰股 are 異體字, it doesn't really follow the above article.
joehua
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-24T12:29:55.293Z
"Does that mean that 骰=股 both in pronunciation and meaning in the ancient time?" I'm not sure but probably not. 骰 probably didn't exist before the Song dynasty.
joehua
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-24T17:44:12.963Z
@joehua I don't disagree with dROOOze but he didn't get my intention to bring this matter up - to confirm the correctness of 漢典's treating "骰"和"股"互為異體字. I feel the same as you - "I'm not sure but probably not."
r13
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-26T06:44:19.220Z
I don't understand the confusion here. As I said in the other post, 異體字 are variant characters representing the same underlying word. 骰(gǔ) is 異體字 of 股(gǔ), because they represent the same word (gǔ, *thigh*). 骰(tóu) is **not** 異體字 of 股(gǔ), because they **do not** represent the same word; tóu (*dice*) is not the same word as gǔ (*thigh*). When 漢典 lists 骰 as 異體字 of 股, it really is trying to say, "when 骰 is pronounced as gǔ and it means *thigh*, it is 異體字 of 股".
dROOOze
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-26T19:36:24.957Z
@dROOOze None of the entries under "股" says that it has the same meaning/uses as "骰". If they don't have the same meaning but the same pronunciation, should they be considered 異體字 to each other? Or, do you mean per 【集韻】, they were once have the same meaning and same pronunciation (gǔ)? Sorry, to drag out this topic, but I am still confused. What does "骰 ...**音古。股或作骰**" mean?
r13
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-26T19:55:47.197Z
https://www.zdic.net/hans/%E8%82%A1 says 股：【集韻】...亦作骰。 It means that 集韻 records the word written as 股 may sometimes be written as 骰. So, when you read a text which is written around the time of 集韻, and you see 骰, you should be aware of the possibility that it represents the word meaning *thigh* pronounced as 古. *Should they be considered 異體字?* - I don't understand this question; they are 異體字 when you read a text, see 骰, and realise that you should read it the same as 股. If you read a text, see 骰, and realise that it means *dice*, then it is not a 異體字 of 股. What issues do you have with this?
dROOOze
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-26T20:23:46.380Z
@dROOOze Thanks, my fault, missed the entry  "股【集韻】或作。亦作骰。"
r13
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-22T04:18:32.437Z
2024-12-22T18:43:52.740Z
2024-12-22T18:43:52.740Z
r13
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/DrYY74EZ.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/DrYY74EZ.png" alt="Annotated screenshot from MOE dictionary entry for 骰子 &quot;dice&quot;" /></a>
In old-fashioned Taiwan Mandarin (國語), sha<em>e</em>tz / shǎizi is the everyday spoken pronunciation of 骰子 &quot;dice&quot;（could also be written as 色子). In PRC Mandarin (普通話), the pronunciation sha<em>e</em>tz / shǎizi is now standardized as 色子。In PRC dictionaries, 骰子 is now only pronounced as tou<em>r</em>tz / tóuzi.</p>
<p>Two romanizations are provided: GR Tonal Spelling 拼調式國語羅馬字 (1928) / Hanyu Pinyin (1958). Italicized letters are tone markers.
<a href="https://tinyurl.com/shaetz-MOE-dictionary" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://tinyurl.com/shaetz-MOE-dictionary</a></p>
<p><strong>Parenthetical Remark</strong>
Osteomancy, the practice of divination by inspecting bones, may have given rise to the use of bones as dice for gambling.</p>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/AJKgMd78.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/AJKgMd78.png" alt="重編國語辭典, p. 4072-4073" /></a></p>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/3qchYSlD.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/3qchYSlD.png" alt="enter image description here" /></a></p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-21T15:48:05.530Z
Strange: carefully designed image is missing from final post!
Robert MATTHEWS 馬學進
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-22T15:32:50.167Z
I am really surprised to see that the 重 in 重編 is transcribed as ㄓㄨㄥˋ, zhòng. Shouldn't it be ㄔㄨㄥˊ, chóng as it means again, repeat, and not heavy?
joehua
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-23T08:25:53.670Z
Oops! I used 32-bit PhotoScape software to create the title and forgot to proofread. Alternate glyphs often kick in automatically using Affinity Publisher 2.5.7. Otherwise, I can easily select the appropriate form. Thanks for catching the typo.
Robert MATTHEWS 馬學進
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-23T19:20:55.930Z
Haven't seen GR in a hot minute. Can't say I've missed it.
Mou某
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-24T03:09:40.607Z
GR is still a useful tool for people with open minds who use visual mnemonics to consolidate their memories. Nobody is forced to use it.
Robert MATTHEWS 馬學進
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-21T15:44:59.870Z
2024-12-24T08:56:11.397Z
2024-12-24T08:56:11.397Z
Robert MATTHEWS 馬學進
<p>When I refer to a Chinese dictionary, I notice that the word “<strong>骰子</strong>” is pronounced as &quot;<strong>shăi zi</strong>&quot;, but when I ask one old Chinese professor about this, he said that the right pronunciation should be “<strong>tóu zi</strong>”. Therefore, I am quite confused which pronunciation is right. Can somebody help me check it? Thanks!</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-22T15:18:11.947Z
康熙字典 lists two pronunciations: 頭 and 骨. When I was young, I pronounced it as 骨子. As I grew up, I changed it to 色子. Now, it is 頭子.
joehua
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-22T20:27:47.443Z
In Taiwan, it's always pronounced as shăi zi. People wouldn't understand you if you said tóu zi.
palapapa
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-23T13:13:53.387Z
The Mandarin spoken in Taiwan (國語) was standardized about one century ago. After the CCP took over, they tinkered with the pronunciation of certain morphemes, especially 入聲字, and came up with a new standard called 普通話 that sounds odd to Taiwan ears. Words such as 發酵 fajiaw / fājiào (PRC) instead of fashiaw / fāxiào (ROC) and expressions such as 早上好 for "Good morning!" instead of 早安 (Taiwan usage). The two ways to say 骰子 are just one more example of such oddities.
Robert MATTHEWS 馬學進
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-23T13:28:16.207Z
Another oddity is 所有人 instead of 人人，大家
joehua
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-23T13:34:58.607Z
＠palapapa If you check 國語辭典 compiled by the Ministry of Education, if has only one standardized pronunciation tóu zi. However, it also says 「此詞常混同「色子」一詞之音，讀為ㄕㄞˇ．ㄗ。也作「色子」、「色數兒」。」 Frankly, I don't know what it means. What does 「混同」mean?
joehua
<pronunciation>
Is 骰子 pronounced "shăi zi" or "tóu zi"?
# Is 骰子 pronounced "shăi zi" or "tóu zi"?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2024-12-21)

When I refer to a Chinese dictionary, I notice that the word “**骰子**” is pronounced as "**shăi zi**", but when I ask one old Chinese professor about this, he said that the right pronunciation should be “**tóu zi**”. Therefore, I am quite confused which pronunciation is right. Can somebody help me check it? Thanks!

**Tags:** pronunciation

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: 康熙字典 lists two pronunciations: 頭 and 骨. When I was young, I pronounced it as 骨子. As I grew up, I changed it to 色子. Now, it is 頭子.  
> **username_2**: In Taiwan, it's always pronounced as shăi zi. People wouldn't understand you if you said tóu zi.  
> **username_3**: The Mandarin spoken in Taiwan (國語) was standardized about one century ago. After the CCP took over, they tinkered with the pronunciation of certain morphemes, especially 入聲字, and came up with a new standard called 普通話 that sounds odd to Taiwan ears. Words such as 發酵 fajiaw / fājiào (PRC) instead of fashiaw / fāxiào (ROC) and expressions such as 早上好 for "Good morning!" instead of 早安 (Taiwan usage). The two ways to say 骰子 are just one more example of such oddities.  
> **username_1**: Another oddity is 所有人 instead of 人人，大家  
> **username_1**: ＠username_2 If you check 國語辭典 compiled by the Ministry of Education, if has only one standardized pronunciation tóu zi. However, it also says 「此詞常混同「色子」一詞之音，讀為ㄕㄞˇ．ㄗ。也作「色子」、「色數兒」。」 Frankly, I don't know what it means. What does 「混同」mean?  

---

## 3 answers

### Answer by username_3 on 2024-12-21. Score: 6 | Accepted answer

[![Annotated screenshot from MOE dictionary entry for 骰子 "dice"](https://i.sstatic.net/DrYY74EZ.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/DrYY74EZ.png)
In old-fashioned Taiwan Mandarin (國語), sha*e*tz / shǎizi is the everyday spoken pronunciation of 骰子 "dice"（could also be written as 色子). In PRC Mandarin (普通話), the pronunciation sha*e*tz / shǎizi is now standardized as 色子。In PRC dictionaries, 骰子 is now only pronounced as tou*r*tz / tóuzi.

Two romanizations are provided: GR Tonal Spelling 拼調式國語羅馬字 (1928) / Hanyu Pinyin (1958). Italicized letters are tone markers.
<https://tinyurl.com/shaetz-MOE-dictionary>

**Parenthetical Remark**
Osteomancy, the practice of divination by inspecting bones, may have given rise to the use of bones as dice for gambling.

[![重編國語辭典, p. 4072-4073](https://i.sstatic.net/AJKgMd78.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/AJKgMd78.png)

[![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/3qchYSlD.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/3qchYSlD.png)

> **Comments:**
> **username_3**: Strange: carefully designed image is missing from final post!  
> **username_1**: I am really surprised to see that the 重 in 重編 is transcribed as ㄓㄨㄥˋ, zhòng. Shouldn't it be ㄔㄨㄥˊ, chóng as it means again, repeat, and not heavy?  
> **username_3**: Oops! I used 32-bit PhotoScape software to create the title and forgot to proofread. Alternate glyphs often kick in automatically using Affinity Publisher 2.5.7. Otherwise, I can easily select the appropriate form. Thanks for catching the typo.  
> **username_5**: Haven't seen GR in a hot minute. Can't say I've missed it.  
> **username_3**: GR is still a useful tool for people with open minds who use visual mnemonics to consolidate their memories. Nobody is forced to use it.  

---

### Answer by username_4 on 2024-12-21. Score: 2

骰子 tóu zǐ：骨制的赌具，正方形，用手抛，看落下后最上面的点数。俗称“色（shǎi）子”。

色 shǎi：

色子(即骰子) [dice]。赌具，小立方体，一般用骨头制成，六面分刻一、二、三、四、五、六点。

I don't think 骰 has a pronunciation shǎi, that would be 色. So I suppose some people have confused the terms as they both refer to the same thing.

> **Comments:**
> **username_5**: Interesting. Guifan also has a note that says: `注意 “骰”统读tóu, 不读gǔ。` It's funny that `gǔ` would also be a common misreading, while we're busy here considering `shǎi`. But of course it is, as it has part of `骨` in it. Yet, even more fascinating as "bones" (`gǔ`) is slang for dice in English. I guess dice all used to be made from animal bones?  
> **username_4**: I have to say I have never heard anyone say bones for dice, but: "As a colloquial way to say "dice," it is attested from late 14c. (dice anciently were made from the knucklebones of animals)."  
> **username_6**: @username_5 The interesting thing is "汉典" lists 股(gǔ) as the 异体字 of 骰(tóu), the reverse is true too. https://www.zdic.net/hans/%E8%82%A1  
> **username_7**: @username_6 that’s not correct. 異體字 do not cause different pronunciations, they’re variant characters representing a single underlying word or morpheme. It is only pronounced **gǔ** (Under the kangxi entry: 又【集韻】果五切，音古。股或作骰。).  
> **username_6**: @username_7 Yes, that's why I said it (lists two words with different pronunciations as 异体字 to each other) is interesting to note. Please check the linked page.  
> **username_7**: @username_6 I don't think you understood the linked page. 股(**gǔ**) is not 異體字 of 骰(**tóu**). Two different pronunciations cannot result in 異體字. You mean, 骰(**gǔ**) may be 異體字 of 股(**gǔ**). You can see that there is no reverse relationship; 股 is never pronounced **tóu**, which strongly indicates that 骰(**tóu**) and 骰(**gǔ**) are 同形異字.  
> **username_6**: @username_7 I understand and agree with what you have said, but in the dictionary, 股 is listed under the [異體字] block/column of 骰, as well as 骰 is listed under the [異體字] block/column of 股. I found it is quite amusing then. Note in nowhere it says 同形異字  
> **username_3**: 骰 pronounced shae / shǎi is Taiwan usage (國語 rather than 普通話). When it means "dice", 色 can also be pronounced shae / shǎi. The graphics in my answer provide excerpts from the most massive, authoritative ROC dictionary.  
> **username_4**: I wonder if there is a principle at work here: how do / did characters get different pronunciations??  

---

### Answer by username_6 on 2024-12-22. Score: 1

Explanation from [**汉典**](https://www.zdic.net/hans/%E9%AA%B0) (zdic.net/dict.cn)

[![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/9QCNMIqK.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/9QCNMIqK.png)

**ADD:** Now seems the right time to reveal an odd notice in the dictionary. In the image below, see the word listed under "异体字":

[![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/fnlBxN6t.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/fnlBxN6t.png)

Also, in reverse:

[![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/Te9588Jj.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/Te9588Jj.png)

Did I misunderstand something? Please feel free to comment. Thanks.

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: If you check [異體字字典](https://dict.variants.moe.edu.tw/dictView.jsp?ID=51622) published by the Ministry of Education of ROC, you don't find the 骰股 combination though in 康熙字典, it does say 「又【集韻】果五切，音古。股或作骰」.  
> **username_6**: @username_1 Does that mean that 骰=股 both in pronunciation and meaning in the ancient time?  
> **username_6**: @username_1 Also note that under the entry for 骰(tóu), 股(gǔ) is listed as its 异体字. Is that correct?  
> **username_1**: I agree with username_7 that to be qualified as 異體字, the pronunciation and meaning must be same in every case. This article, in 漢典, [古今字，異體字，繁簡字](https://www.zdic.net/ts/han/2019/11/829.html) says "有些字通用是有條件的，更不能認爲是異體字。例如"亡"和"無"相通，《論語·雍也》："今也則亡"（如今就沒有了）。但並不是所有用"無"的地方都可以換成"亡"。" Obviously, when 漢典 says 骰股 are 異體字, it doesn't really follow the above article.  
> **username_1**: "Does that mean that 骰=股 both in pronunciation and meaning in the ancient time?" I'm not sure but probably not. 骰 probably didn't exist before the Song dynasty.  
> **username_6**: @username_1 I don't disagree with username_7 but he didn't get my intention to bring this matter up - to confirm the correctness of 漢典's treating "骰"和"股"互為異體字. I feel the same as you - "I'm not sure but probably not."  
> **username_7**: I don't understand the confusion here. As I said in the other post, 異體字 are variant characters representing the same underlying word. 骰(gǔ) is 異體字 of 股(gǔ), because they represent the same word (gǔ, *thigh*). 骰(tóu) is **not** 異體字 of 股(gǔ), because they **do not** represent the same word; tóu (*dice*) is not the same word as gǔ (*thigh*). When 漢典 lists 骰 as 異體字 of 股, it really is trying to say, "when 骰 is pronounced as gǔ and it means *thigh*, it is 異體字 of 股".  
> **username_6**: @username_7 None of the entries under "股" says that it has the same meaning/uses as "骰". If they don't have the same meaning but the same pronunciation, should they be considered 異體字 to each other? Or, do you mean per 【集韻】, they were once have the same meaning and same pronunciation (gǔ)? Sorry, to drag out this topic, but I am still confused. What does "骰 ...**音古。股或作骰**" mean?  
> **username_7**: https://www.zdic.net/hans/%E8%82%A1 says 股：【集韻】...亦作骰。 It means that 集韻 records the word written as 股 may sometimes be written as 骰. So, when you read a text which is written around the time of 集韻, and you see 骰, you should be aware of the possibility that it represents the word meaning *thigh* pronounced as 古. *Should they be considered 異體字?* - I don't understand this question; they are 異體字 when you read a text, see 骰, and realise that you should read it the same as 股. If you read a text, see 骰, and realise that it means *dice*, then it is not a 異體字 of 股. What issues do you have with this?  
> **username_6**: @username_7 Thanks, my fault, missed the entry  "股【集韻】或作。亦作骰。"  

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