<p>As I said in <a href="https://chinese.stackexchange.com/a/593/16">another answer</a>, I think pinyin was actually developed to help Russian speakers learn Mandarin. It may be that "iu" in Russian is pronounced with an added "o" sound. That question has some other answers with interesting information about the development of pinyin.</p>

<p>In spite of its quirks, I've found pinyin a lot easier to use than <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bopomofo" rel="nofollow noreferrer">zhuyin fuhao</a>. It's a phonetic system that uses symbols instead of letters, often called bopomofo.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-03-13T03:39:50.553Z
I find Zhuyin Fuhao much easier. But I was already used to and already enjoyed learning new writing systems. It's no harder than learning Cyrillic and just as consistent. Most people seem to have an aversion to learning alphabets, even many who want to learn a language. I don't think learning a new symbol is harder than learning a new sports statistic or piece of celebrity trivia (-;
hippietrail
CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-07-14T00:05:31.417Z
Bopomofo doesn't have the "irregularity" of shortening iou to iu, etc.
joehua
CC BY-SA 3.0
2012-01-20T09:46:14.977Z
Russian, as far as I know, has two ways to represent "iu": иу and ю. The first has the stress on the "i", the second on the "u". But both are "ee-oo"... I don't remember an "o" sound like the one in "jiu" or "liu" for pinyin. If some russian native speaker passes by, I'd like to have more insight on this. :)
Alenanno
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2012-01-20T21:01:44.537Z
I agree with @Alenanno based on my little knowledge of Russian.
Petruza
CC BY-SA 3.0
2012-01-20T05:58:59.300Z
2012-01-20T05:58:59.300Z
2017-04-13T12:48:06.093Z
Don Kirkby
<p>In addition, if you write <code>jiou</code> it will be <code>ji'ou</code>(奇偶) rather than 就(jiu) and <code>*iu</code> disambiguates that. </p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-04-22T15:00:44.867Z
Yeah, it does serve that purpose too, maybe accidentally, but your answer, as well as many other romanizations (e.g. Japan's Romaji) do handle that ambiguity better IMO, with the apostrophe.
Petruza
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-04-21T04:39:36.130Z
2019-04-21T04:39:36.130Z
imkzh
<p>Because liu is actually pronounced that way in the first tone and second tone. This applies to -ui and -un.</p>

<p>But in the third tone you have a longer syllable where a schwa is inserted so it sounds like -iou, -uei, -uen</p>

<p>Actually the fourth tone is the shortest, but it goes the other way. 对 dui4 actually sounds like due, the diphthong doesn't finish since it's the shortest tone</p>

<p>Spelling them all differently based on tone doesn't make sense. The shorter spelling is more economical.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-03-13T03:46:30.810Z
Very interesting! I'll be keeping my ears tuned looking for this ...
hippietrail
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2019-03-13T11:43:53.793Z
That's an original answer I hadn't read before, and makes a lot of sense too.
Petruza
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-03-13T01:40:33.563Z
2019-03-13T01:40:33.563Z
iopq
<p>I think, although pinyin is super helpful, it has serious issues inherent in design. There are many confusing elements there, and this disappearing of "o" sound is only one of them. There are other ones, such as "i" pronounced so differently in "qi, ci, chi", and how come "an" sounds so different in "wan" and "yan", etc.</p>

<p>Pinyin and Mandarin pronunciation are two different things. Pinyin must be bent and manipulated numerous times to be able to fit to natural speech pattern, which exited long before the invention of pinyin.</p>

<p>If interested, read more here: The gulf between pinyin and Mandarin Chinese pronunciation   <a href="https://mslmaster.com/index.php/teaching-learning-resources/10-resources/54-the-gulf-between-pinyin-and-mandarin-chinese-pronunciation" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://mslmaster.com/index.php/teaching-learning-resources/10-resources/54-the-gulf-between-pinyin-and-mandarin-chinese-pronunciation</a></p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-04-13T11:01:57.890Z
2019-04-13T11:01:57.890Z
Xuehong Zhang
<p>There do exist "o" in the vowel "<em>iu</em>", which is originally "<em>iou</em>".</p>

<p>However, for the convenience of daily using, they omitted the "<em>o</em>".
(also, <em>uei --> ui</em>)</p>

<ul>
<li>pinyin: <em>-iou --> -iu</em> </li>
<li>zhuyin(注音): 一(<em>i</em>)ㄡ(<em>ou</em>)</li>
</ul>

<p>now we have:</p>

<ol>
<li>ㄌ(<em>l</em>)<strong>ㄧㄡ(<em>iou</em>)</strong> or <em>l+iou=l<strong>iu</em></strong>: 溜流柳六</li>
<li>ㄐ(<em>j</em>)<strong>ㄧㄡ(<em>iou</em>)</strong> or <em>j+iou=j<strong>iu</em></strong>: 糾(no second tone)久就</li>
<li>ㄋ(<em>n</em>)<strong>ㄧㄡ(<em>iou</em>)</strong> or <em>n+iou=n<strong>iu</em></strong>: 妞牛紐拗</li>
</ol>

<p>But for the case the vowel "<em>iou</em>" appears alone, they replace "<em>i</em>" with "<em>y</em>" (insisting every sound should be <em>a consonant</em> + <em>a vowel</em>), which is </p>

<ol start="4">
<li><strong>一ㄡ(<em>iou</em>)</strong> or <em>y+iou=<strong>you</em></strong>: 悠由友又</li>
</ol>

<hr>

<p>Here's a good tutorial on pinyin (by Chicago North Chinese School):
<a href="http://www.svcs-us.org/docs/academics/2012-2013/HanYuPinYin.pdf" rel="nofollow noreferrer">http://www.svcs-us.org/docs/academics/2012-2013/HanYuPinYin.pdf</a></p>

<p>It explains almost every detail (but made a few mistakes).  </p>

<p>Btw, zhuyin is written in the upside-down form.
Except for that, both systems are merely the same.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2018-11-19T08:57:38.667Z
2018-11-19T08:57:38.667Z
Kara
<p>Because pinyin wasn't created by Westerners; it was created by the Chinese government.
Also transliteration systems, by nature, aren't perfect analogues to the mother tongue, and you're just setting yourself up for heartbreak if you expect them to be. Relevant: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwoyeu_Romatzyh" rel="nofollow">Gwoyeu Romatzyh</a></p>

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2012-01-20T21:01:21.100Z
I don't expect Pinyin to be anything, I just study it. And this doesn't answer my question.
Petruza
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2012-05-19T07:00:23.693Z
Pinyin is not a transliteration in any other language.
gb.
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2013-10-09T01:42:41.473Z
Petruza, the posters are trying to tell you that pinyin doesn't work perfectly, especially for someone who learned to use the alphabet to pronounce a different language, i.e. English. Even in English a lot of spellings are not purely phonetic, but a lot of it
grayQuant
CC BY-SA 3.0
2013-10-09T01:44:42.830Z
Petruza, your question is unanswerable, pinyin doesn't work perfectly even for native speakers. For someone who learned the alphabet for a different language i.e. English, pinyin makes even less sense. It's just a guide to pronunciation, but Chinese can't be learned entirely through it.
grayQuant
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-06-20T19:18:04.350Z
I know Pinyin is not perfect, if such a concept can be defined in linguistics. It's not a question of perfection or even quality of Pinyin, it's about a double standard for *you* and *liu*, for example. Both have the same exact vowel pronunciation in chinese but have different spellings in pinyin. You could argue that they may not have the same *exact* pronunciation, but the difference in spelling certainly doesn't reflect that, anyway.
Petruza
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-06-21T06:28:16.687Z
There's no double standard, you're just looking at the spelling from the perspective of a non-native Chinese speaker. Frankly, I think many Chinese would be rather offended by your insinuation that they somehow didn't know what they were doing when they set up a romanization system for their own language. I mean, really. Where do you get off asking a question like this? I'd probably be quite pissed if I were Chinese.
StormShadow
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-03-13T03:43:54.733Z
Pinyin is a thousand times more phonetic than English but it is less phonetic than Spanish. It's even less phonetic than French. Pinyin has a 1:1 mapping from initials and finals to spelling. It does not have a 1:1 mapping from phonemes to spelling, or from letters or even letter pairs to phonemes.
hippietrail
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2019-03-13T03:45:22.250Z
@StormShadow: It may surprise you to find out that you might not be pissed off about it if you were Taiwanese though.
hippietrail
CC BY-SA 3.0
2012-01-20T01:51:09.227Z
2012-01-20T01:51:09.227Z
StormShadow
<p>The same happens with other characters with the same "finals":</p>

<p>就 - Jiù<br>
扭 - Niǔ<br>
etc...</p>

<p>From <a href="http://chinesepod.com/tools/pronunciation/section/8" rel="noreferrer">this page</a> of Chinesepod.com:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p><em><strong>Mandarin's iu sound</strong> can confuse you because what is written <strong>is actually an abbreviated form of "iou,"</strong> a straightforward combination of the vowel sounds i and ou. Thus the iu syllable sounds similar to the "yo" of the English word "yo-yo," with a bit more "oo" sound on the end. It is written as you when it stands alone, and as iu when it is preceded by a consonant (for example, diu, niu, liu).</em></p>
</blockquote>

<p>Emphasis and bold are mine.</p>

<hr>

<p><strong>Edit</strong>: I think that the reason why we have "you" and "liu" is due to some important facts:</p>

<p>Chinese syllables are all made of <a href="http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Chinese_%28Mandarin%29/Pronunciation_of_Initials" rel="noreferrer">initials</a> + <a href="http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Chinese_%28Mandarin%29/Pronunciation_of_Finals" rel="noreferrer">finals</a>. Unlike other languages, not all sounds in Chinese can be both initials and finals. For example the [s] sound never occurs at the end of a syllable in Chinese, but it does at the beginning, etc.</p>

<p>For this reason, we cannot have a stand-alone final<sup>1</sup>. Finals that stand by themselves need an initial anyway, and, apart from "iou-you", this happens to other finals as well:</p>

<ul>
<li>iou —> you</li>
<li>uen —> wen</li>
<li>iao —> yao</li>
<li>u —> wu</li>
<li>etc...</li>
</ul>

<p>At this point we could write "liou", but like it has been mentioned, this could have been done for a reason of "economizing/saving space". This doesn't happen symmetrically to all syllables, but considering Pinyin is an "artificial" system for romanizations, many choices could be just arbitrary. In any case, if I find some other claim that explains more in depth, I'll make sure to add it. </p>

<hr>

<p><sup>1: This is not true for all the finals. Check the link for "<a href="http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Chinese_%28Mandarin%29/Pronunciation_of_Finals" rel="noreferrer">finals</a>" to see which ones can stand by themselves, under the column <strong>Final-only form</strong>. </sup></p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-06-19T03:14:34.677Z
@Petruza you asked _"Why liu, jiu, niu and not yu instead of you?"_ but it doesn't seem you got an answer? The most obvious thing to me is that, because there is no "liu" sound, only "liou" sound, it was able to be made into shorthand. However, there are both "you" (like 油, yóu, oil) and "yu" (like 鱼, yú, fish) sounds, so it cannot be shortened down. Now then, if it was able to be shortened down, why did they, then making the lettering inconsistent? That could be another [carry-over from the old 注音符号 system](http://chinese.stackexchange.com/a/6290/3561), possibly.
Ming
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-03-13T03:34:19.640Z
I believe that other Romanization systems were invented to assist foreigners with consistent ways to write each distinct sound whereas Pinyin was invented to supplement Hanzi and eventually replace it for use by native speakers who already knew all the distinct sounds. Everybody knew what sounds do and don't exist in Mandarin so they could economize on number of letters needed per sound. Basically, Pinyin is not for foreign learners, it's for native speakers. You need to learn Pinyin spelling just as you'd learn French spelling. It's consistent but not obvious without an introduction.
hippietrail
CC BY-SA 3.0
2012-01-19T23:16:19.660Z
By the way, I forgot to mention that I was mislead too at first eheheh... :D
Alenanno
CC BY-SA 3.0
2012-01-20T21:03:14.503Z
Ok, this says it happens, but *why* or *what for* is the question. Why *liu*, *jiu*, *niu* and not *yu* instead of *you*?
Petruza
CC BY-SA 3.0
2012-01-20T21:09:04.800Z
It's written in the last sentence: *"It is written as you when it stands alone, and as iu when it is preceded by a consonant (for example, diu, niu, liu)."*
Alenanno
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2012-01-20T21:10:54.473Z
I know, it says how it's written. What I ask is *why*.
Petruza
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2012-01-20T21:32:18.673Z
Yeah, I guess there's no simple answer to this.
Petruza
CC BY-SA 3.0
2012-01-20T22:44:13.113Z
I don't think it's "certainly related to the phonologic evolution", given that Pinyin was devised in the past century.  Most other romanization schemes (e.g., Wade-Giles, Yale, Gwoyeu Romatzyh, etc.) retain the 'o' in the romanization.  The answer may simply be for reducing redundancy and increasing conciseness in spelling (i.e., since the -iu sound doesn't exist in Mandarin, it's safe to use it to represent the -iou sound).  Other cases where this happens is with -uei -> -ui, -uen -> un,  ü -> u after j/q/x, and -uo -> -o after b/p/m/f.
Claw
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2012-01-20T23:10:59.013Z
@Claw You're correct, it can't be to that, I just realized that... I subconsciously felt like it was another alphabet and forgot that it was actually something very recent. My bad. :P I deleted the comment because it was simply wrong. By the way, thanks for the summary, but is it a guess you're making or can we find some documentation on that?
Alenanno
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2012-01-21T00:09:55.843Z
@Petruza Tomorrow I'll try to look for some references if I find any and update the answer in case.
Alenanno
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2012-01-21T00:51:39.050Z
@Alenanno: It's just my guess; that's why I said "The answer *may* simply be..."  I can't find any documentation otherwise.
Claw
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2012-01-21T00:59:01.037Z
@Claw your comment looks like a possible answer.
Petruza
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2012-01-22T14:57:14.753Z
@Petruza I added some other details; not sure if they answer completely, but hope they help further. :)
Alenanno
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2012-01-22T18:53:59.100Z
Ok, I get the impression that it was just letter ecnomization and no other specific reason. About that there can't be a syllable without initial, what about 阿 *a*? I regard *you*, *wu* as simply not having initial, but whatever.
Petruza
CC BY-SA 3.0
2012-01-22T19:08:06.350Z
Well, if you think about it, "you" and "wu" do have initials which are "y" and "w" respectively. About 阿, I kind of forgot to mention that some finals can stand by themselves. I'll edit this... You can check that link I provided to see which ones can stand alone.
Alenanno
CC BY-SA 3.0
2012-01-19T23:13:57.160Z
2012-01-22T19:09:29.157Z
2012-01-22T19:09:29.157Z
Alenanno
<p>Does anybody know <em><strong>why</strong></em> this decision was made in pinyin, about not writing any hint of the sound <code>/o/</code> in <em>liu</em>, instead of writing something like <em>liou</em> or <em>liow</em> ?</p>
<p>The first reaction of any newcomer to Chinese, and also, non-Chinese speakers, is to say <em>lee-oo</em> instead of <em>lee-ow</em>.</p>
<p>Edit: some arbitrary decision seems to have been made by choosing <em>you</em> instead of <em>yu</em>, but with other initials, the choice was: <em>liu</em>, <em>niu</em>, <em>jiu</em>, etc. when the phoneme <code>/ou/</code> in all cases is the same and one could reasonably expect them to be written the same, or at least to be a good reason as to why it isn't the case.</p>
<p>Edit2:
Happens something similar to the final <em>-ui</em> which is pronounced <em>-uei</em></p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-06-20T19:27:06.570Z
Ok the best answer I've read is that choosing *liu* instead of *liou* was just to save one letter. And that this couldn't be done with *you* -> *yu* (or *iu*) because there's already a *yu* syllable and that would be ambiguous.
Petruza
CC BY-SA 4.0
2018-11-19T14:56:06.853Z
It's basically a history problem, not language problem. I don't even believe there are any text record of such thing. You can see the design result from any copy of 新华字典, but can't find the reason behind this design. 新华字典 Just tell you it's for saving letters, while I highly doubt that.
炸鱼薯条德里克
CC BY-SA 4.0
2018-11-19T17:59:43.367Z
There are other cases where finals are abbreviated differently. I recommend finding a full initial/final table (it fits on one screen) and marking it up with your own observations and pronunciation notes.  For example, the final "uei" is never written out, it's "wei" and "dui".
Ben Jackson
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-03-13T03:26:24.947Z
There are many such gotchas in Pinyin. Most Chinese believe Pinyin is a 1 letter:1 sound system and tell foreigners learners that. Some foreigners never realize this and just assume they can't pronounce Chinese or nobody understands them when they're pronouncing it properly. You know you have a good Chinese teacher if they start teaching you this right at the beginning because many untrained teachers just assume Pinyin is a no-brainer. This is probably why most Taiwanese don't know Pinyin. Zhuyin Fuhao, in contrast, only has one single gotcha and is 1:1 otherwise.
hippietrail
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2020-07-12T06:55:47.910Z
@hippietrail I wonder what the gotcha is in bopomofo. I have never noticed it.
joehua
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2020-07-12T08:52:40.463Z
@joehua: I always forget what it is when I haven't used Bopomofo for ages and it's been over a year now since I last left Taiwan. If it comes back to me I'll leave you a comment.
hippietrail
<pronunciation><pinyin><spelling>
Why is it written LIU in Pinyin, when there's clearly an O sound?
# Why is it written LIU in Pinyin, when there's clearly an O sound?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2012-01-19)

Does anybody know ***why*** this decision was made in pinyin, about not writing any hint of the sound `/o/` in *liu*, instead of writing something like *liou* or *liow* ?

The first reaction of any newcomer to Chinese, and also, non-Chinese speakers, is to say *lee-oo* instead of *lee-ow*.

Edit: some arbitrary decision seems to have been made by choosing *you* instead of *yu*, but with other initials, the choice was: *liu*, *niu*, *jiu*, etc. when the phoneme `/ou/` in all cases is the same and one could reasonably expect them to be written the same, or at least to be a good reason as to why it isn't the case.

Edit2:
Happens something similar to the final *-ui* which is pronounced *-uei*

**Tags:** pronunciation, pinyin, spelling

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Ok the best answer I've read is that choosing *liu* instead of *liou* was just to save one letter. And that this couldn't be done with *you* -> *yu* (or *iu*) because there's already a *yu* syllable and that would be ambiguous.  
> **username_1**: It's basically a history problem, not language problem. I don't even believe there are any text record of such thing. You can see the design result from any copy of 新华字典, but can't find the reason behind this design. 新华字典 Just tell you it's for saving letters, while I highly doubt that.  
> **username_2**: There are other cases where finals are abbreviated differently. I recommend finding a full initial/final table (it fits on one screen) and marking it up with your own observations and pronunciation notes.  For example, the final "uei" is never written out, it's "wei" and "dui".  
> **username_3**: There are many such gotchas in Pinyin. Most Chinese believe Pinyin is a 1 letter:1 sound system and tell foreigners learners that. Some foreigners never realize this and just assume they can't pronounce Chinese or nobody understands them when they're pronouncing it properly. You know you have a good Chinese teacher if they start teaching you this right at the beginning because many untrained teachers just assume Pinyin is a no-brainer. This is probably why most Taiwanese don't know Pinyin. Zhuyin Fuhao, in contrast, only has one single gotcha and is 1:1 otherwise.  
> **username_4**: @username_3 I wonder what the gotcha is in bopomofo. I have never noticed it.  
> **username_3**: @username_4: I always forget what it is when I haven't used Bopomofo for ages and it's been over a year now since I last left Taiwan. If it comes back to me I'll leave you a comment.  

---

## 7 answers

### Answer by username_6 on 2012-01-19. Score: 18 | Accepted answer

The same happens with other characters with the same "finals":

就 - Jiù  
扭 - Niǔ  
etc...

From [this page](http://chinesepod.com/tools/pronunciation/section/8) of Chinesepod.com:

> ***Mandarin's iu sound** can confuse you because what is written **is actually an abbreviated form of "iou,"** a straightforward combination of the vowel sounds i and ou. Thus the iu syllable sounds similar to the "yo" of the English word "yo-yo," with a bit more "oo" sound on the end. It is written as you when it stands alone, and as iu when it is preceded by a consonant (for example, diu, niu, liu).*

Emphasis and bold are mine.

---

**Edit**: I think that the reason why we have "you" and "liu" is due to some important facts:

Chinese syllables are all made of [initials](http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Chinese_%28Mandarin%29/Pronunciation_of_Initials) + [finals](http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Chinese_%28Mandarin%29/Pronunciation_of_Finals). Unlike other languages, not all sounds in Chinese can be both initials and finals. For example the [s] sound never occurs at the end of a syllable in Chinese, but it does at the beginning, etc.

For this reason, we cannot have a stand-alone final1. Finals that stand by themselves need an initial anyway, and, apart from "iou-you", this happens to other finals as well:

* iou —> you
* uen —> wen
* iao —> yao
* u —> wu
* etc...

At this point we could write "liou", but like it has been mentioned, this could have been done for a reason of "economizing/saving space". This doesn't happen symmetrically to all syllables, but considering Pinyin is an "artificial" system for romanizations, many choices could be just arbitrary. In any case, if I find some other claim that explains more in depth, I'll make sure to add it.

---

1: This is not true for all the finals. Check the link for "[finals](http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Chinese_%28Mandarin%29/Pronunciation_of_Finals)" to see which ones can stand by themselves, under the column **Final-only form**.

> **Comments:**
> **username_6**: By the way, I forgot to mention that I was mislead too at first eheheh... :D  
> **username_0**: Ok, this says it happens, but *why* or *what for* is the question. Why *liu*, *jiu*, *niu* and not *yu* instead of *you*?  
> **username_6**: It's written in the last sentence: *"It is written as you when it stands alone, and as iu when it is preceded by a consonant (for example, diu, niu, liu)."*  
> **username_0**: I know, it says how it's written. What I ask is *why*.  
> **username_0**: Yeah, I guess there's no simple answer to this.  
> **username_15**: I don't think it's "certainly related to the phonologic evolution", given that Pinyin was devised in the past century.  Most other romanization schemes (e.g., Wade-Giles, Yale, Gwoyeu Romatzyh, etc.) retain the 'o' in the romanization.  The answer may simply be for reducing redundancy and increasing conciseness in spelling (i.e., since the -iu sound doesn't exist in Mandarin, it's safe to use it to represent the -iou sound).  Other cases where this happens is with -uei -> -ui, -uen -> un,  ü -> u after j/q/x, and -uo -> -o after b/p/m/f.  
> **username_6**: @username_15 You're correct, it can't be to that, I just realized that... I subconsciously felt like it was another alphabet and forgot that it was actually something very recent. My bad. :P I deleted the comment because it was simply wrong. By the way, thanks for the summary, but is it a guess you're making or can we find some documentation on that?  
> **username_6**: @username_0 Tomorrow I'll try to look for some references if I find any and update the answer in case.  
> **username_15**: @username_6: It's just my guess; that's why I said "The answer *may* simply be..."  I can't find any documentation otherwise.  
> **username_0**: @username_15 your comment looks like a possible answer.  
> **username_6**: @username_0 I added some other details; not sure if they answer completely, but hope they help further. :)  
> **username_0**: Ok, I get the impression that it was just letter ecnomization and no other specific reason. About that there can't be a syllable without initial, what about 阿 *a*? I regard *you*, *wu* as simply not having initial, but whatever.  
> **username_6**: Well, if you think about it, "you" and "wu" do have initials which are "y" and "w" respectively. About 阿, I kind of forgot to mention that some finals can stand by themselves. I'll edit this... You can check that link I provided to see which ones can stand alone.  
> **username_14**: @username_0 you asked _"Why liu, jiu, niu and not yu instead of you?"_ but it doesn't seem you got an answer? The most obvious thing to me is that, because there is no "liu" sound, only "liou" sound, it was able to be made into shorthand. However, there are both "you" (like 油, yóu, oil) and "yu" (like 鱼, yú, fish) sounds, so it cannot be shortened down. Now then, if it was able to be shortened down, why did they, then making the lettering inconsistent? That could be another [carry-over from the old 注音符号 system](http://chinese.stackexchange.com/a/6290/3561), possibly.  
> **username_3**: I believe that other Romanization systems were invented to assist foreigners with consistent ways to write each distinct sound whereas Pinyin was invented to supplement Hanzi and eventually replace it for use by native speakers who already knew all the distinct sounds. Everybody knew what sounds do and don't exist in Mandarin so they could economize on number of letters needed per sound. Basically, Pinyin is not for foreign learners, it's for native speakers. You need to learn Pinyin spelling just as you'd learn French spelling. It's consistent but not obvious without an introduction.  

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### Answer by username_5 on 2012-01-20. Score: 5

As I said in [another answer](https://chinese.stackexchange.com/a/593/16), I think pinyin was actually developed to help Russian speakers learn Mandarin. It may be that "iu" in Russian is pronounced with an added "o" sound. That question has some other answers with interesting information about the development of pinyin.

In spite of its quirks, I've found pinyin a lot easier to use than [zhuyin fuhao](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bopomofo). It's a phonetic system that uses symbols instead of letters, often called bopomofo.

> **Comments:**
> **username_6**: Russian, as far as I know, has two ways to represent "iu": иу and ю. The first has the stress on the "i", the second on the "u". But both are "ee-oo"... I don't remember an "o" sound like the one in "jiu" or "liu" for pinyin. If some russian native speaker passes by, I'd like to have more insight on this. :)  
> **username_0**: I agree with @username_6 based on my little knowledge of Russian.  
> **username_3**: I find Zhuyin Fuhao much easier. But I was already used to and already enjoyed learning new writing systems. It's no harder than learning Cyrillic and just as consistent. Most people seem to have an aversion to learning alphabets, even many who want to learn a language. I don't think learning a new symbol is harder than learning a new sports statistic or piece of celebrity trivia (-;  
> **username_4**: Bopomofo doesn't have the "irregularity" of shortening iou to iu, etc.  

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### Answer by username_7 on 2019-04-21. Score: 2

In addition, if you write `jiou` it will be `ji'ou`(奇偶) rather than 就(jiu) and `*iu` disambiguates that.

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Yeah, it does serve that purpose too, maybe accidentally, but your answer, as well as many other romanizations (e.g. Japan's Romaji) do handle that ambiguity better IMO, with the apostrophe.  

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### Answer by username_8 on 2019-03-13. Score: 2

Because liu is actually pronounced that way in the first tone and second tone. This applies to -ui and -un.

But in the third tone you have a longer syllable where a schwa is inserted so it sounds like -iou, -uei, -uen

Actually the fourth tone is the shortest, but it goes the other way. 对 dui4 actually sounds like due, the diphthong doesn't finish since it's the shortest tone

Spelling them all differently based on tone doesn't make sense. The shorter spelling is more economical.

> **Comments:**
> **username_3**: Very interesting! I'll be keeping my ears tuned looking for this ...  
> **username_0**: That's an original answer I hadn't read before, and makes a lot of sense too.  

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### Answer by username_9 on 2019-04-13. Score: 2

I think, although pinyin is super helpful, it has serious issues inherent in design. There are many confusing elements there, and this disappearing of "o" sound is only one of them. There are other ones, such as "i" pronounced so differently in "qi, ci, chi", and how come "an" sounds so different in "wan" and "yan", etc.

Pinyin and Mandarin pronunciation are two different things. Pinyin must be bent and manipulated numerous times to be able to fit to natural speech pattern, which exited long before the invention of pinyin.

If interested, read more here: The gulf between pinyin and Mandarin Chinese pronunciation <https://mslmaster.com/index.php/teaching-learning-resources/10-resources/54-the-gulf-between-pinyin-and-mandarin-chinese-pronunciation>


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### Answer by username_10 on 2018-11-19. Score: 2

There do exist "o" in the vowel "*iu*", which is originally "*iou*".

However, for the convenience of daily using, they omitted the "*o*".
(also, *uei --> ui*)

* pinyin: *-iou --> -iu*
* zhuyin(注音): 一(*i*)ㄡ(*ou*)

now we have:

1. ㄌ(*l*)**ㄧㄡ(*iou*)** or *l+iou=l**iu***: 溜流柳六
2. ㄐ(*j*)**ㄧㄡ(*iou*)** or *j+iou=j**iu***: 糾(no second tone)久就
3. ㄋ(*n*)**ㄧㄡ(*iou*)** or *n+iou=n**iu***: 妞牛紐拗

But for the case the vowel "*iou*" appears alone, they replace "*i*" with "*y*" (insisting every sound should be *a consonant* + *a vowel*), which is

4. **一ㄡ(*iou*)** or *y+iou=**you***: 悠由友又

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Here's a good tutorial on pinyin (by Chicago North Chinese School):
<http://www.svcs-us.org/docs/academics/2012-2013/HanYuPinYin.pdf>

It explains almost every detail (but made a few mistakes).

Btw, zhuyin is written in the upside-down form.
Except for that, both systems are merely the same.


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### Answer by username_11 on 2012-01-20. Score: 2

Because pinyin wasn't created by Westerners; it was created by the Chinese government.
Also transliteration systems, by nature, aren't perfect analogues to the mother tongue, and you're just setting yourself up for heartbreak if you expect them to be. Relevant: [Gwoyeu Romatzyh](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwoyeu_Romatzyh)

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: I don't expect Pinyin to be anything, I just study it. And this doesn't answer my question.  
> **username_12**: Pinyin is not a transliteration in any other language.  
> **username_13**: username_0, the posters are trying to tell you that pinyin doesn't work perfectly, especially for someone who learned to use the alphabet to pronounce a different language, i.e. English. Even in English a lot of spellings are not purely phonetic, but a lot of it  
> **username_13**: username_0, your question is unanswerable, pinyin doesn't work perfectly even for native speakers. For someone who learned the alphabet for a different language i.e. English, pinyin makes even less sense. It's just a guide to pronunciation, but Chinese can't be learned entirely through it.  
> **username_0**: I know Pinyin is not perfect, if such a concept can be defined in linguistics. It's not a question of perfection or even quality of Pinyin, it's about a double standard for *you* and *liu*, for example. Both have the same exact vowel pronunciation in chinese but have different spellings in pinyin. You could argue that they may not have the same *exact* pronunciation, but the difference in spelling certainly doesn't reflect that, anyway.  
> **username_11**: There's no double standard, you're just looking at the spelling from the perspective of a non-native Chinese speaker. Frankly, I think many Chinese would be rather offended by your insinuation that they somehow didn't know what they were doing when they set up a romanization system for their own language. I mean, really. Where do you get off asking a question like this? I'd probably be quite pissed if I were Chinese.  
> **username_3**: Pinyin is a thousand times more phonetic than English but it is less phonetic than Spanish. It's even less phonetic than French. Pinyin has a 1:1 mapping from initials and finals to spelling. It does not have a 1:1 mapping from phonemes to spelling, or from letters or even letter pairs to phonemes.  
> **username_3**: @username_11: It may surprise you to find out that you might not be pissed off about it if you were Taiwanese though.  

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