<p>聞之曰 in most cases means a quote is following. But for ancient works like Zhuangzi, it maybe not. Sometimes ancient authors talk with the beginning of 'I heard from others that...' just a style, and the following 'quote' is not from some resource, but just the author's personal opinion, or maybe it is really quote, but the originals has already lost during the long history. As you should know, Zhuangzi is as old as about 2500 years ago, and the quote should be at least 2500 years also, which is a age without paper, pen, very few educated people, and documentation was very hard, so that the lost of the original of a quote is reasonable. Also, in ancient Chinese, there is no quotation mark, even Chinese never used any punctuation marks in writing. Ancient educated people are trained to read the articles without punctuations, and the punctuations are add by modern people. So, please, as a reader of ancient Chinese, never pay that much attention to quotation marks. After all, no matter where the sayings are from, they are always reasonable and worthy to learn.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-11-16T05:18:13.740Z
2015-11-17T05:06:40.480Z
2015-11-17T05:06:40.480Z
gcd0318
<p>Honestly, it doesn't matter. The "quote" is mostly made up in such context to emphasize the 2nd phrase. </p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-11-15T14:35:02.547Z
Since the sentence begins with a 聞之曰, it's obviously a citation. So there must be a quote somewhere. And since I'm doing a translation, I will have to decide what is the probable right place. So it does matter, I guess.
Rodrigo
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-11-15T17:12:11.140Z
In these classical Chinese text, "聞之" is more made up sentences than actual citation.
Siyi Deng
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-11-15T19:10:08.117Z
Oh yes, I forgot that. So it's more a matter of opinion. I can change the quote position and see what people think. Thanks for your help.
Rodrigo
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-11-15T01:49:42.323Z
2015-11-15T01:49:42.323Z
Siyi Deng
<p>In <a href="http://ctext.org/zhuangzi/seal-of-virtue-complete" rel="nofollow">Zhuang Zi 5.2</a> we read:</p>

<p>聞之曰：『鑑明則塵垢不止，止則不明也。久與賢人處，則無過。』</p>

<p><a href="http://terebess.hu/english/chuang.html" rel="nofollow">Lin Yutang translation</a>: "Now I have heard that if a mirror is perfectly bright, dust will not collect on it, and that if it does, the mirror is no longer bright. He who associates for long with the wise should be without fault." (Notice in the link above how Yutang avoids the quotes.)</p>

<p>I wonder if the saying is both phrases,</p>

<p>『鑑明則塵垢不止，止則不明也。久與賢人處，則無過。』</p>

<p>or only the first one (being the end quote misplaced somewhere in the copy chain).</p>

<p>『鑑明則塵垢不止，止則不明也。』</p>

<p>Looks to me like both phrases make more sense in the context of this book. In some places it is referred in the shorter version, like <a href="https://books.google.com.br/books?id=CDJnAwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA45&amp;lpg=PA45&amp;dq=%E9%91%91%E6%98%8E%E5%89%87%E5%A1%B5%E5%9E%A2%E4%B8%8D%E6%AD%A2%EF%BC%8C%E6%AD%A2%E5%89%87%E4%B8%8D%E6%98%8E%E4%B9%9F%E3%80%82&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=9LOrYdfDlU&amp;sig=iMBRRj3xq9bAbN1YD27pGFJ78ow&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0CEkQ6AEwCGoVChMIgJSwqaeQyQIVBCKQCh1DjQE3#v=onepage&amp;q=%E9%91%91%E6%98%8E%E5%89%87%E5%A1%B5%E5%9E%A2%E4%B8%8D%E6%AD%A2%EF%BC%8C%E6%AD%A2%E5%89%87%E4%B8%8D%E6%98%8E%E4%B9%9F%E3%80%82&amp;f=false" rel="nofollow">here</a> and <a href="https://books.google.com.br/books?id=5Jsjj52AqpwC&amp;pg=PT62&amp;lpg=PT62&amp;dq=%E9%91%91%E6%98%8E%E5%89%87%E5%A1%B5%E5%9E%A2%E4%B8%8D%E6%AD%A2%EF%BC%8C%E6%AD%A2%E5%89%87%E4%B8%8D%E6%98%8E%E4%B9%9F%E3%80%82&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=Nd07ew2FD4&amp;sig=BlLNV7xwSJEo3B-acWoSGyowIuA&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=0CEUQ6AEwB2oVChMIgJSwqaeQyQIVBCKQCh1DjQE3#v=onepage&amp;q=%E9%91%91%E6%98%8E%E5%89%87%E5%A1%B5%E5%9E%A2%E4%B8%8D%E6%AD%A2%EF%BC%8C%E6%AD%A2%E5%89%87%E4%B8%8D%E6%98%8E%E4%B9%9F%E3%80%82&amp;f=false" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>

<chengyu><saying>
What is the correct saying?
# What is the correct saying?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2015-11-14)

In [Zhuang Zi 5.2](http://ctext.org/zhuangzi/seal-of-virtue-complete) we read:

聞之曰：『鑑明則塵垢不止，止則不明也。久與賢人處，則無過。』

[Lin Yutang translation](http://terebess.hu/english/chuang.html): "Now I have heard that if a mirror is perfectly bright, dust will not collect on it, and that if it does, the mirror is no longer bright. He who associates for long with the wise should be without fault." (Notice in the link above how Yutang avoids the quotes.)

I wonder if the saying is both phrases,

『鑑明則塵垢不止，止則不明也。久與賢人處，則無過。』

or only the first one (being the end quote misplaced somewhere in the copy chain).

『鑑明則塵垢不止，止則不明也。』

Looks to me like both phrases make more sense in the context of this book. In some places it is referred in the shorter version, like [here](https://books.google.com.br/books?id=CDJnAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&dq=%E9%91%91%E6%98%8E%E5%89%87%E5%A1%B5%E5%9E%A2%E4%B8%8D%E6%AD%A2%EF%BC%8C%E6%AD%A2%E5%89%87%E4%B8%8D%E6%98%8E%E4%B9%9F%E3%80%82&source=bl&ots=9LOrYdfDlU&sig=iMBRRj3xq9bAbN1YD27pGFJ78ow&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEkQ6AEwCGoVChMIgJSwqaeQyQIVBCKQCh1DjQE3#v=onepage&q=%E9%91%91%E6%98%8E%E5%89%87%E5%A1%B5%E5%9E%A2%E4%B8%8D%E6%AD%A2%EF%BC%8C%E6%AD%A2%E5%89%87%E4%B8%8D%E6%98%8E%E4%B9%9F%E3%80%82&f=false) and [here](https://books.google.com.br/books?id=5Jsjj52AqpwC&pg=PT62&lpg=PT62&dq=%E9%91%91%E6%98%8E%E5%89%87%E5%A1%B5%E5%9E%A2%E4%B8%8D%E6%AD%A2%EF%BC%8C%E6%AD%A2%E5%89%87%E4%B8%8D%E6%98%8E%E4%B9%9F%E3%80%82&source=bl&ots=Nd07ew2FD4&sig=BlLNV7xwSJEo3B-acWoSGyowIuA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEUQ6AEwB2oVChMIgJSwqaeQyQIVBCKQCh1DjQE3#v=onepage&q=%E9%91%91%E6%98%8E%E5%89%87%E5%A1%B5%E5%9E%A2%E4%B8%8D%E6%AD%A2%EF%BC%8C%E6%AD%A2%E5%89%87%E4%B8%8D%E6%98%8E%E4%B9%9F%E3%80%82&f=false).

**Tags:** chengyu, saying


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## 2 answers

### Answer by username_1 on 2015-11-16. Score: 1 | Accepted answer

聞之曰 in most cases means a quote is following. But for ancient works like Zhuangzi, it maybe not. Sometimes ancient authors talk with the beginning of 'I heard from others that...' just a style, and the following 'quote' is not from some resource, but just the author's personal opinion, or maybe it is really quote, but the originals has already lost during the long history. As you should know, Zhuangzi is as old as about 2500 years ago, and the quote should be at least 2500 years also, which is a age without paper, pen, very few educated people, and documentation was very hard, so that the lost of the original of a quote is reasonable. Also, in ancient Chinese, there is no quotation mark, even Chinese never used any punctuation marks in writing. Ancient educated people are trained to read the articles without punctuations, and the punctuations are add by modern people. So, please, as a reader of ancient Chinese, never pay that much attention to quotation marks. After all, no matter where the sayings are from, they are always reasonable and worthy to learn.


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### Answer by username_2 on 2015-11-15. Score: 1

Honestly, it doesn't matter. The "quote" is mostly made up in such context to emphasize the 2nd phrase.

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Since the sentence begins with a 聞之曰, it's obviously a citation. So there must be a quote somewhere. And since I'm doing a translation, I will have to decide what is the probable right place. So it does matter, I guess.  
> **username_2**: In these classical Chinese text, "聞之" is more made up sentences than actual citation.  
> **username_0**: Oh yes, I forgot that. So it's more a matter of opinion. I can change the quote position and see what people think. Thanks for your help.  

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