<p>Interesting, the ancient text had no punctuation marks, it must have been added by someone later to divide 天 and 及殷民.</p>
<p>If it was a mistake to add a comma, then 告纣之罪于天及殷民 means &quot;announce Zhou's sin to the heaven and Yin's people</p>
<p>If it is not a mistake, &quot;及&quot; in &quot;告纣之罪于天, 及殷民&quot; would mean &quot;reach&quot;</p>
<p>&quot;告纣之罪于天, <strong>及</strong>殷民&quot; -- &quot;Reported Zhou's sin to the heaven, and this announcement <strong>reached</strong> all the Yin's people&quot;</p>

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2022-10-21T08:30:08.960Z
Wow, great explanation! With your translation, I think inserting a comma is more logical. 祭祀 itself only communicates with God/Heaven, but then the sin of Zhou is spread out to the people of Yin. It also reads more beautifully this way.
lilysirius
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2022-10-21T12:20:24.233Z
＠lilysirius "Sin of Zhou"??? Sin of Yin.
joehua
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2022-10-21T20:45:10.297Z
@joehua it’s lost in the translation, meant to be 纣, not 周
lilysirius
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2022-10-21T08:25:07.523Z
2022-10-21T08:33:38.677Z
2022-10-21T08:33:38.677Z
Tang Ho
<p>I think there is a discrepancy between the scholars. Here is an article claims the original text as (without comma):</p>
<p>周公旦者，周武王弟也。自文王在时，旦为子孝，笃仁，异于群子。及武王即位，旦常辅翼武王，用事居多。武王九年，东伐至盟津，周公辅行。十一年，伐纣，至牧野，周公佐武王，作《牧誓》。破殷，入商宫。已杀纣，周公把大钺，召公把小钺，以夹武王，衅社，<strong>告纣之罪于天及殷民</strong>。遍封功臣同姓戚者，封周公旦于少昊之虚曲阜，是为鲁公。周公不就封，留佐武王。</p>
<p>And the explanation,</p>
<p>周公旦，是周武王之弟。从文王还在世时，旦作为儿子非常孝顺，忠厚仁爱，胜过其他兄弟。到武王即位，旦经常佐助辅弼武王，处理很多政务。武王九年，武王亲自东征至盟津，周公随军辅助。十一年，周军讨伐殷纣，军至牧野，周公佐助武王，发布了动员战斗的《牧誓》。周军攻破殷都，进入殷王宫。杀殷纣以后，周公手持大钺，召公手持小钺，左右夹辅武王，举行衅社之礼，<strong>向上天与殷民昭布纣之罪状</strong>。遍封功臣、同姓及亲戚。封周公于少昊故墟曲阜，这就是鲁公。但周公没有去自己的封国，而是留在朝延辅佐武王。</p>
<p>In this context, 于天及殷民 means 向上天与殷民. Note that 殷民 means 殷商的百姓﹐亦指殷代遗民。(汉典)</p>
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2022-10-21T20:06:30.960Z
2022-10-21T20:06:30.960Z
r13
<p>well, read the preceding verses together as:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>周公把大鉞・召公把小鉞・以夾武王・釁社・告紂之罪于天・及殷民</p>
</blockquote>
<p>roughly, mr 周 was holding a big battle-axe, mr 召 was holding a smaller battle-axe, 武王 was standing in between (周公把大鉞・召公把小鉞・以夾武王). “釁社“ means sacrifice animals, taking their blood as an offering to god (殺牲取血以祭社神); informing the god what’re the offences of the king 紂 (告紂之罪于天)</p>
<p><strong>it’s a ceremony, only selected vv important people are allowed to attend</strong></p>
<p>afterwards, [mr 周] informed the people of the former dynasty [that their ruler was dead, and they’ve a new ruler (武王) now; in order to stabilise the situation] (“及殷民”)</p>
<blockquote>
<p>What is the consideration here?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>the speech, or info for offering a sacrifice to god, and informing laymen are completely difference, that’s why mostly likely, if not all, one would chop the verse before “及”</p>
<p>secondly, these two events happened in different time, and, most likely, in different places.</p>
<p>have fun :)</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-10-21T08:56:51.033Z
2022-10-21T08:56:51.033Z
水巷孑蠻
<p>&quot;(衅社，)告纣之罪于天,及殷民&quot; This is from 《史记·鲁周公世家》.</p>
<p>There's a comma in this sentence in 中华书局点校本二十四史修订本. I also googled &quot;告纣之罪于天及殷民&quot;, most of the results come back with a comma.</p>
<p>What is the consideration here? <em>(Sacrifice to the God of Earth,) Tell Zhou's sin to God and the people of Yin</em>. 及 is understood as a conjunction and no comma is needed. If a comma is inserted, I tend to interpret 及 as a verb, but what meaning does it have then? Interpreted as [extend to] doesn't make sense.</p>

<classical-chinese><literary-chinese><punctuation>
Why put a comma in 告纣之罪于天,及殷民?
# Why put a comma in 告纣之罪于天,及殷民?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2022-10-21)

"(衅社，)告纣之罪于天,及殷民" This is from 《史记·鲁周公世家》.

There's a comma in this sentence in 中华书局点校本二十四史修订本. I also googled "告纣之罪于天及殷民", most of the results come back with a comma.

What is the consideration here? *(Sacrifice to the God of Earth,) Tell Zhou's sin to God and the people of Yin*. 及 is understood as a conjunction and no comma is needed. If a comma is inserted, I tend to interpret 及 as a verb, but what meaning does it have then? Interpreted as [extend to] doesn't make sense.

**Tags:** classical-chinese, literary-chinese, punctuation


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## 3 answers

### Answer by username_4 on 2022-10-21. Score: 3 | Accepted answer

well, read the preceding verses together as:

> 周公把大鉞・召公把小鉞・以夾武王・釁社・告紂之罪于天・及殷民

roughly, mr 周 was holding a big battle-axe, mr 召 was holding a smaller battle-axe, 武王 was standing in between (周公把大鉞・召公把小鉞・以夾武王). “釁社“ means sacrifice animals, taking their blood as an offering to god (殺牲取血以祭社神); informing the god what’re the offences of the king 紂 (告紂之罪于天)

**it’s a ceremony, only selected vv important people are allowed to attend**

afterwards, [mr 周] informed the people of the former dynasty [that their ruler was dead, and they’ve a new ruler (武王) now; in order to stabilise the situation] (“及殷民”)

> What is the consideration here?

the speech, or info for offering a sacrifice to god, and informing laymen are completely difference, that’s why mostly likely, if not all, one would chop the verse before “及”

secondly, these two events happened in different time, and, most likely, in different places.

have fun :)


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### Answer by username_1 on 2022-10-21. Score: 1

Interesting, the ancient text had no punctuation marks, it must have been added by someone later to divide 天 and 及殷民.

If it was a mistake to add a comma, then 告纣之罪于天及殷民 means "announce Zhou's sin to the heaven and Yin's people

If it is not a mistake, "及" in "告纣之罪于天, 及殷民" would mean "reach"

"告纣之罪于天, **及**殷民" -- "Reported Zhou's sin to the heaven, and this announcement **reached** all the Yin's people"

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Wow, great explanation! With your translation, I think inserting a comma is more logical. 祭祀 itself only communicates with God/Heaven, but then the sin of Zhou is spread out to the people of Yin. It also reads more beautifully this way.  
> **username_2**: ＠username_0 "Sin of Zhou"??? Sin of Yin.  
> **username_0**: @username_2 it’s lost in the translation, meant to be 纣, not 周  

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### Answer by username_3 on 2022-10-21. Score: 0

I think there is a discrepancy between the scholars. Here is an article claims the original text as (without comma):

周公旦者，周武王弟也。自文王在时，旦为子孝，笃仁，异于群子。及武王即位，旦常辅翼武王，用事居多。武王九年，东伐至盟津，周公辅行。十一年，伐纣，至牧野，周公佐武王，作《牧誓》。破殷，入商宫。已杀纣，周公把大钺，召公把小钺，以夹武王，衅社，**告纣之罪于天及殷民**。遍封功臣同姓戚者，封周公旦于少昊之虚曲阜，是为鲁公。周公不就封，留佐武王。

And the explanation,

周公旦，是周武王之弟。从文王还在世时，旦作为儿子非常孝顺，忠厚仁爱，胜过其他兄弟。到武王即位，旦经常佐助辅弼武王，处理很多政务。武王九年，武王亲自东征至盟津，周公随军辅助。十一年，周军讨伐殷纣，军至牧野，周公佐助武王，发布了动员战斗的《牧誓》。周军攻破殷都，进入殷王宫。杀殷纣以后，周公手持大钺，召公手持小钺，左右夹辅武王，举行衅社之礼，**向上天与殷民昭布纣之罪状**。遍封功臣、同姓及亲戚。封周公于少昊故墟曲阜，这就是鲁公。但周公没有去自己的封国，而是留在朝延辅佐武王。

In this context, 于天及殷民 means 向上天与殷民. Note that 殷民 means 殷商的百姓﹐亦指殷代遗民。(汉典)

<http://wyw.5156edu.com/html/z8174m7753j4872.html>


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