<p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yale_romanization_of_Cantonese" rel="nofollow">Yale romanization</a> analyzes Cantonese syllables in terms of an optional initial and an obligatory final (e.g., <code>cheung</code> = <code>ch</code> + <code>eung</code>). The tone mark is always placed over the first letter of the final (e.g., <code>chèung</code>). As you mentioned, <code>h</code> is used after the vowel (more accurately the <em>syllable nucleus</em>) in syllables to denote tones 4, 5, and 6 (e.g., <code>chèuhng</code>).</p>

<p>While <code>m</code> and <code>ng</code> in most other cases are considered syllable initials, in these specific cases, <code>m</code> and <code>ng</code> are analyzed as syllable finals; they are also the nuclei of these finals. Following the convention with placing the tone mark over the first letter of the final, the marks would thus be placed over the <code>m</code> and <code>n</code>, respectively. In the case of <code>hng</code>, <code>h</code> is considered the initial and <code>ng</code> is the final, so the tone mark would also occur over the <code>n</code> in this case.</p>

<p>You noted that syllables with <code>m</code> and <code>ng</code> seem to always exist in tones 4, 5, and 6, so the nuclear <code>h</code> may seem redundant, but it is still specified in proper Yale romanization. There are a few cases where such syllables can occur with tone 2 (e.g., <a href="http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%CB%ED" rel="nofollow">呣</a> and <a href="http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%B6%E2" rel="nofollow">嗯</a>), so in these cases, the <code>h</code> can make a useful distinction (<code>ḿ</code> and <code>ńg</code> vs. <code>ḿh</code> and <code>ńgh</code>, where the latter two are possible pronunciations of 五).</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-07-27T03:00:29.893Z
How about `hm`? Presumably, like with `hng` where the `h` is considered the initial and the `m` the final. In which case, for example, would the 6th tone be `hmh`?
Mark
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-07-28T22:19:34.743Z
@Mark Yes, that would be the case.
Claw
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-07-24T18:31:04.427Z
2014-07-24T18:31:04.427Z
Claw
<p>For tone-marked Yale, the tone mark goes over the first vowel and then (for tones 4,5,6) an 'h' is placed after the last vowel.</p>

<p>But what about the syllables without any vowels: hm, hng, m, ng ?</p>

<p>I'm guessing place the tone mark over the n and m?</p>

<p>But how about the low-level 'h'? For 'm' there is only one place. But for the others, should it go after the 'n' or after the 'g'?  After the 'g' certainly looks better.</p>

<p>Alternatively, maybe because those four syllables only seem to ever exist in tones 4,5 and 6, that we don't need the 'h' at all (because it can be implied).</p>

<cantonese><tones><yale-romanization>
Yale tone marks and low-level 'h' for vowel-less syllables
# Yale tone marks and low-level 'h' for vowel-less syllables

(Asked by: username_0 on 2014-07-24)

For tone-marked Yale, the tone mark goes over the first vowel and then (for tones 4,5,6) an 'h' is placed after the last vowel.

But what about the syllables without any vowels: hm, hng, m, ng ?

I'm guessing place the tone mark over the n and m?

But how about the low-level 'h'? For 'm' there is only one place. But for the others, should it go after the 'n' or after the 'g'? After the 'g' certainly looks better.

Alternatively, maybe because those four syllables only seem to ever exist in tones 4,5 and 6, that we don't need the 'h' at all (because it can be implied).

**Tags:** cantonese, tones, yale-romanization


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## 1 answers

### Answer by username_1 on 2014-07-24. Score: 3 | Accepted answer

[Yale romanization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yale_romanization_of_Cantonese) analyzes Cantonese syllables in terms of an optional initial and an obligatory final (e.g., `cheung` = `ch` + `eung`). The tone mark is always placed over the first letter of the final (e.g., `chèung`). As you mentioned, `h` is used after the vowel (more accurately the *syllable nucleus*) in syllables to denote tones 4, 5, and 6 (e.g., `chèuhng`).

While `m` and `ng` in most other cases are considered syllable initials, in these specific cases, `m` and `ng` are analyzed as syllable finals; they are also the nuclei of these finals. Following the convention with placing the tone mark over the first letter of the final, the marks would thus be placed over the `m` and `n`, respectively. In the case of `hng`, `h` is considered the initial and `ng` is the final, so the tone mark would also occur over the `n` in this case.

You noted that syllables with `m` and `ng` seem to always exist in tones 4, 5, and 6, so the nuclear `h` may seem redundant, but it is still specified in proper Yale romanization. There are a few cases where such syllables can occur with tone 2 (e.g., [呣](http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%CB%ED) and [嗯](http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%B6%E2)), so in these cases, the `h` can make a useful distinction (`ḿ` and `ńg` vs. `ḿh` and `ńgh`, where the latter two are possible pronunciations of 五).

> **Comments:**
> **username_2**: How about `hm`? Presumably, like with `hng` where the `h` is considered the initial and the `m` the final. In which case, for example, would the 6th tone be `hmh`?  
> **username_1**: @username_2 Yes, that would be the case.  

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