<p>One speculation: If 四 in 泗 wasn't solely chosen for its sound, then it might also refer to four rivers. It is easy to imagine switching 四水 to 泗. but I can't find any references online</p>
<p>Other note:</p>
<p>&quot;All&quot; is an implied meaning of 四  which is extended from 4 in number</p>
<p>Since there are four main directions: East, West South, and North, 四 took on the meaning of &quot;All&quot;</p>
<p>For example:</p>
<p>四方 = All lands (in four directions)</p>
<p>四海  = All seas (in four directions)</p>
<p>In Cantonese 四 in <a href="https://words.hk/zidin/%E5%9B%9B%E6%AD%A3" rel="nofollow noreferrer">四正</a> (neat) doesn't mean &quot;four&quot; but &quot;overall&quot;</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-03-24T06:57:21.390Z
That could be a possibility there, I personally think that the meaning "mucous" probably had came first before it was used as the name of a river in Shandong, unless if that's not the case.
prismcool
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-03-24T07:03:46.547Z
Taking a look at the character's usage on Chinese Text Project though, I'm seeing that it's mostly used for the name of the river itself and occasionally used to mean "mucous".
prismcool
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-03-24T06:40:38.173Z
2024-03-24T06:40:38.173Z
Tang Ho
<p>I think the wiki note below provides the clear link between 四 and 泗 you are looking for - ...a dispersal of breath (四) with mucus (氵) --&gt; snivel(泗).</p>
<p><a href="https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%9B%9B" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/四</a></p>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/xbDJ4.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/xbDJ4.png" alt="enter image description here" /></a></p>
<p>*<strong>The bronzeware style of the character featured a repositioning of those four lines inside 口 (kǒu); this later evolved into the combination used today of 口 (kǒu, “mouth”) and 八 (bā, “divide”) which meant a dispersal of breath. It could thus be said that four is a borrowed meaning for this character. The original sense is preserved in 呬 (OC <em>hrids), by adding an extra 口.</em></strong></p>
<p><a href="https://xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.tw/yanbian" rel="nofollow noreferrer">小學堂 - 四</a></p>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/d4FCh.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/d4FCh.png" alt="enter image description here" /></a></p>
<p><a href="https://xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.tw/yanbian" rel="nofollow noreferrer">小學堂 - 泗</a></p>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/SDZae.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/SDZae.png" alt="enter image description here" /></a></p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-03-25T21:53:12.127Z
2024-03-25T21:53:12.127Z
r13
<p>Recently, I've been thinking about this but after figuring out later written forms of 四 (sì; <em>four</em>) in bronze scripts (see below chart from 小學堂 for reference) depict a nose breathing out air and was the original form of 呬 (sì; <em>to rest; to breathe, to gasp</em>) (according to 說文新證, 漢語多功能字庫, 文源, etc.), I've been wondering if 四 is used in 泗 (sì; <em>mucous; nasal flow; sniffle; river in Shandong</em>) as some sort of form component besides it's usage for sound.</p>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/2ilp5.jpg" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/2ilp5.jpg" alt="enter image description here" /></a></p>
<p>I've did came across a few sources (and a question here) that claimed 四 also being the original form of 泗, but further digging into this, I couldn't determine whether or not 四 was being directly used as a picture of a nose in 泗 since not many sources talk about this and I thought it made sort of sense for 泗 to be a depiction of a nose (四) with mucus (氵) running out from the nose or just a simple phonosemantic character with 四 happening to also be a form component.</p>
<p>Just to clear things up here on my question, did 四 had another purpose in 泗 besides being used as a sound component? Was 四 even the original form of 泗? How can I be sure if this is actually true since I'm not entirely sure yet? I know I probably overthinking this but it probably either has to be a coincidence or it's true.</p>
<p>Would be much appreciated for answers on this question of mine! :)</p>
<p>Note: I am aware that 四 started off in the oracle bone script as a pictograph of four lines to represent four. I'm discussing about the more later interpretations of 四 when it changed it's shape.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-03-25T04:53:06.860Z
If you can establish that 泗 was consistently used for the meaning *nasal mucous* in pre-Qin texts, then maybe 四 could more than just a phonetic component in 泗. I haven't found anything suggesting this, however; AFAIK (1) the sole pre-Qin appearance of 泗 meaning *nasal mucous* is from a received text (傳世文獻) version of 詩經 in the word 涕泗, and this word was more often written as 涕洟 in other places; (2) the sole pre-Qin excavated text appearance of 泗 is in a Chu-era text referencing the name 泗尹 (now written [伊尹](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_Yin)). Interestingly, 伊 is also the name of a river.
dROOOze
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-03-25T04:58:19.070Z
See also the 3rd and 4th discussion points (其三、其四) in [**《詩經》“涕泗滂沱”之“泗”新證**](http://journal.hanja.asia/journal/article.php?code=72915). I'm not convinced by any of the arguments for the main conclusion in this article (they claim that 泗 is a variant of 益), but it's an interesting read nonetheless.
dROOOze
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-03-25T05:27:50.430Z
@dROOOze Just read the article and there's definitely some points in it that I've pointed out already in my question (such as 泗 being a depiction of water running from the nose, which has already proven to be false) and some that I'm pretty skeptical of. Looks like 洟 it's more commonly used to refer to nasal mucous. If I had to guess, 泗 was probably created as some sort of variant character.
prismcool
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-03-25T05:29:11.483Z
Also since from the many pre-Qin texts I've read, 泗 seems to be referring to the name of a person. So my best guess here is that the character was maybe borrowed to mean "mucous", which in this case may be pretty unlikely.
prismcool
<characters><glyph-origin>
What other role does 四 provide in 泗 besides being used as a sound component?
# What other role does 四 provide in 泗 besides being used as a sound component?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2024-03-24)

Recently, I've been thinking about this but after figuring out later written forms of 四 (sì; *four*) in bronze scripts (see below chart from 小學堂 for reference) depict a nose breathing out air and was the original form of 呬 (sì; *to rest; to breathe, to gasp*) (according to 說文新證, 漢語多功能字庫, 文源, etc.), I've been wondering if 四 is used in 泗 (sì; *mucous; nasal flow; sniffle; river in Shandong*) as some sort of form component besides it's usage for sound.

[![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/2ilp5.jpg)](https://i.sstatic.net/2ilp5.jpg)

I've did came across a few sources (and a question here) that claimed 四 also being the original form of 泗, but further digging into this, I couldn't determine whether or not 四 was being directly used as a picture of a nose in 泗 since not many sources talk about this and I thought it made sort of sense for 泗 to be a depiction of a nose (四) with mucus (氵) running out from the nose or just a simple phonosemantic character with 四 happening to also be a form component.

Just to clear things up here on my question, did 四 had another purpose in 泗 besides being used as a sound component? Was 四 even the original form of 泗? How can I be sure if this is actually true since I'm not entirely sure yet? I know I probably overthinking this but it probably either has to be a coincidence or it's true.

Would be much appreciated for answers on this question of mine! :)

Note: I am aware that 四 started off in the oracle bone script as a pictograph of four lines to represent four. I'm discussing about the more later interpretations of 四 when it changed it's shape.

**Tags:** characters, glyph-origin

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: If you can establish that 泗 was consistently used for the meaning *nasal mucous* in pre-Qin texts, then maybe 四 could more than just a phonetic component in 泗. I haven't found anything suggesting this, however; AFAIK (1) the sole pre-Qin appearance of 泗 meaning *nasal mucous* is from a received text (傳世文獻) version of 詩經 in the word 涕泗, and this word was more often written as 涕洟 in other places; (2) the sole pre-Qin excavated text appearance of 泗 is in a Chu-era text referencing the name 泗尹 (now written [伊尹](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_Yin)). Interestingly, 伊 is also the name of a river.  
> **username_1**: See also the 3rd and 4th discussion points (其三、其四) in [**《詩經》“涕泗滂沱”之“泗”新證**](http://journal.hanja.asia/journal/article.php?code=72915). I'm not convinced by any of the arguments for the main conclusion in this article (they claim that 泗 is a variant of 益), but it's an interesting read nonetheless.  
> **username_0**: @username_1 Just read the article and there's definitely some points in it that I've pointed out already in my question (such as 泗 being a depiction of water running from the nose, which has already proven to be false) and some that I'm pretty skeptical of. Looks like 洟 it's more commonly used to refer to nasal mucous. If I had to guess, 泗 was probably created as some sort of variant character.  
> **username_0**: Also since from the many pre-Qin texts I've read, 泗 seems to be referring to the name of a person. So my best guess here is that the character was maybe borrowed to mean "mucous", which in this case may be pretty unlikely.  

---

## 2 answers

### Answer by username_2 on 2024-03-24. Score: 1

One speculation: If 四 in 泗 wasn't solely chosen for its sound, then it might also refer to four rivers. It is easy to imagine switching 四水 to 泗. but I can't find any references online

Other note:

"All" is an implied meaning of 四 which is extended from 4 in number

Since there are four main directions: East, West South, and North, 四 took on the meaning of "All"

For example:

四方 = All lands (in four directions)

四海 = All seas (in four directions)

In Cantonese 四 in [四正](https://words.hk/zidin/%E5%9B%9B%E6%AD%A3) (neat) doesn't mean "four" but "overall"

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: That could be a possibility there, I personally think that the meaning "mucous" probably had came first before it was used as the name of a river in Shandong, unless if that's not the case.  
> **username_0**: Taking a look at the character's usage on Chinese Text Project though, I'm seeing that it's mostly used for the name of the river itself and occasionally used to mean "mucous".  

---

### Answer by username_3 on 2024-03-25. Score: 1

I think the wiki note below provides the clear link between 四 and 泗 you are looking for - ...a dispersal of breath (四) with mucus (氵) --> snivel(泗).

[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/四](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%9B%9B)

[![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/xbDJ4.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/xbDJ4.png)

\***The bronzeware style of the character featured a repositioning of those four lines inside 口 (kǒu); this later evolved into the combination used today of 口 (kǒu, “mouth”) and 八 (bā, “divide”) which meant a dispersal of breath. It could thus be said that four is a borrowed meaning for this character. The original sense is preserved in 呬 (OC *hrids), by adding an extra 口.***

[小學堂 - 四](https://xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.tw/yanbian)

[![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/d4FCh.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/d4FCh.png)

[小學堂 - 泗](https://xiaoxue.iis.sinica.edu.tw/yanbian)

[![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/SDZae.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/SDZae.png)


---

