<p>This is probably not the answer you're looking for, but both「秘」and「泌」underwent the same kinds of shifts (b &gt; m) in certain topolects, so I would just treat it as a simple phonological shift within the labial consonant group (rather than something more &quot;exciting&quot;). I do not believe that the comments on it being a &quot;Mandarin thing&quot; are correct.</p>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/FqZ84.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/FqZ84.png" alt="enter image description here" /></a></p>
<blockquote>
<p>Although &quot;time&quot; seems like a cop-out, I would point to similar shifts over &quot;time&quot; like</p>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/mNnwI.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/mNnwI.png" alt="enter image description here" /></a></p>
</blockquote>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-11-22T08:42:20.927Z
2019-11-22T08:50:06.943Z
2020-06-17T09:50:11.587Z
dROOOze
<p>I came across this comment just now:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>“秘”声符是“必”没问题，但是并不是说“秘”和“必”一定同音，“秘”这个字是北京话读错了，其实应该读bi，“秘鲁”一词还残存bi的读音</p>
</blockquote>

<p>Which got me thinking.</p>

<hr>

<p>秘 is still read "bi" in:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>surnames</p></li>
<li><p>transcriptions (e.g.: Peru)</p></li>
</ul>

<hr>

<p><a href="http://cccanto.org/search.php?q=%E7%A7%98" rel="noreferrer">Cantonese</a> carries the pronunciation:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>bei3</p>
</blockquote>

<hr>

<p><a href="https://www.tiaodengyedu.com/html/348/348599/111232651.html" rel="noreferrer">Sichuanese</a> also has 秘 as "bei" in certain instances:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>秘密 beimi 秘，读“背”。成都人通常称有所隐蔽，不让人知道的话及事情：～档案│～活动。又为“背密”。</p>
</blockquote>

<hr>

<p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathews%27_Chinese%E2%80%93English_Dictionary" rel="noreferrer">Matthews'</a> also has it listed under "bi":</p>

<blockquote>
  <p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/hGXwY.png" rel="noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/hGXwY.png" alt="enter image description here"></a></p>
</blockquote>

<hr>

<p><a href="https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E7%A7%98" rel="noreferrer">Middle Chinese</a> pronunciations also seem to be way close to "bi" than "mi."</p>

<p>So what gives? Where did "mi" come from?</p>

<p>edit: I'm thinking maybe 秘 sounded like 屄, and it was changed purposely because of taboos. (<a href="http://www.sohu.com/a/219931086_413427" rel="noreferrer">http://www.sohu.com/a/219931086_413427</a>) "山东方言对女性的某个器官的发音为“比”，因此，为了避免与比字同音，凡是在读笔字时都要读成北，于是，便有了钢北，毛北，圆柱北。"</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-08-26T05:02:36.483Z
I think someone confused 秘密(bi mi)  with 密密(mi mi). the former means "secret " the latter means "secretly";  and for some reason people start reading 秘 as mi too. As the reference stated, it was Beijing dialect read it wrong. Cantonese doesn't have this problem
Tang Ho
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-08-26T05:22:11.010Z
The problem with 秘 sounded like 屄 can be fixed by a tone change, no need to change the pinyin itself
Tang Ho
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-08-26T05:33:10.953Z
@TangHo The tones are different to begin with, but sometimes these types of evolution do take place.
Mou某
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-08-26T06:53:43.437Z
Language evolves over time, and usually in a gradual way. Consider that the lip-placement of "m" and "b" is actually the same, lips pressed together in front. It's not hard to imagine how these pronunciations can diverge over time.
Marko
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-08-26T07:14:17.390Z
yes, b and m are both labial consonants.
dROOOze
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-08-26T08:01:04.777Z
You see there's a similar unanswered question here: http://c.tieba.baidu.com/p/6226368666
Mou某
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-08-26T12:16:41.327Z
The right form of **secret** is **祕密**, I think that due to the radical **礻** was written to **示** at first (without the bottom hook in the middle vertical stoke), it is so similar to **禾**, so some ordinary people wrote **祕** as **秘** by mistake, and also read **秘密** as **祕密** by mistake.
xenophōn
<mandarin><pronunciation>
How did 秘 "bi" become "mi"?
# How did 秘 "bi" become "mi"?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2019-08-26)

I came across this comment just now:

> “秘”声符是“必”没问题，但是并不是说“秘”和“必”一定同音，“秘”这个字是北京话读错了，其实应该读bi，“秘鲁”一词还残存bi的读音

Which got me thinking.

---

秘 is still read "bi" in:

* surnames
* transcriptions (e.g.: Peru)

---

[Cantonese](http://cccanto.org/search.php?q=%E7%A7%98) carries the pronunciation:

> bei3

---

[Sichuanese](https://www.tiaodengyedu.com/html/348/348599/111232651.html) also has 秘 as "bei" in certain instances:

> 秘密 beimi 秘，读“背”。成都人通常称有所隐蔽，不让人知道的话及事情：～档案│～活动。又为“背密”。

---

[Matthews'](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathews%27_Chinese%E2%80%93English_Dictionary) also has it listed under "bi":

> [![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/hGXwY.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/hGXwY.png)

---

[Middle Chinese](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E7%A7%98) pronunciations also seem to be way close to "bi" than "mi."

So what gives? Where did "mi" come from?

edit: I'm thinking maybe 秘 sounded like 屄, and it was changed purposely because of taboos. (<http://www.sohu.com/a/219931086_413427>) "山东方言对女性的某个器官的发音为“比”，因此，为了避免与比字同音，凡是在读笔字时都要读成北，于是，便有了钢北，毛北，圆柱北。"

**Tags:** mandarin, pronunciation

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: I think someone confused 秘密(bi mi)  with 密密(mi mi). the former means "secret " the latter means "secretly";  and for some reason people start reading 秘 as mi too. As the reference stated, it was Beijing dialect read it wrong. Cantonese doesn't have this problem  
> **username_1**: The problem with 秘 sounded like 屄 can be fixed by a tone change, no need to change the pinyin itself  
> **username_0**: @username_1 The tones are different to begin with, but sometimes these types of evolution do take place.  
> **username_2**: Language evolves over time, and usually in a gradual way. Consider that the lip-placement of "m" and "b" is actually the same, lips pressed together in front. It's not hard to imagine how these pronunciations can diverge over time.  
> **username_3**: yes, b and m are both labial consonants.  
> **username_0**: You see there's a similar unanswered question here: http://c.tieba.baidu.com/p/6226368666  
> **username_4**: The right form of **secret** is **祕密**, I think that due to the radical **礻** was written to **示** at first (without the bottom hook in the middle vertical stoke), it is so similar to **禾**, so some ordinary people wrote **祕** as **秘** by mistake, and also read **秘密** as **祕密** by mistake.  

---

## 1 answers

### Answer by username_3 on 2019-11-22. Score: 2

This is probably not the answer you're looking for, but both「秘」and「泌」underwent the same kinds of shifts (b > m) in certain topolects, so I would just treat it as a simple phonological shift within the labial consonant group (rather than something more "exciting"). I do not believe that the comments on it being a "Mandarin thing" are correct.

[![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/FqZ84.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/FqZ84.png)

> Although "time" seems like a cop-out, I would point to similar shifts over "time" like
>
> [![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/mNnwI.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/mNnwI.png)


---

