<p>This is not a “postposition + 的”, this is a “place + 的”, 爐子裡 is just a place that is “the place inside the stove”. 裡 and 的 are not on the same “layer”.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-04-06T06:29:58.217Z
What are the tests used to decide that 爐子裡 is a place noun?
Starckman
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-04-06T07:19:04.487Z
I do not have tests, but such interpretation makes 的 come after a noun…
user30951
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-04-06T06:20:47.733Z
2022-04-06T06:20:47.733Z
user30951
<p>Not sure why you, or Meneer W. Paul, find this kind of sentence in any way unusual. Probably because Linguists like to confound!</p>
<p>炉子里的煤球很多。<br />
There are many briquettes in the stove.</p>
<p>房子后面的人特别吵。<br />
The people [who live behind our flat] are very noisy.</p>
<p>Prepositions in Western languages always carried &quot;case&quot; with them, be it accusative, dative, genitive or whatever. This precluded the direct use of prepositional phrases as adjectives, like: &quot;The in the stove briquettes&quot; because &quot;the briquettes&quot; will have their own case, dependent on their role in the sentence.</p>
<p>In Chinese, these are perfectly normal:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>(The) in the stove briquettes (are) many.<br />
(In German this kind of &quot;in&quot; requires Dative Case &quot;im Ofen&quot;, but briquettes would be Nominative.)</p>
</li>
<li><p>The live behind our flat people (are) very noisy.</p>
</li>
</ol>
<p>(Again, this &quot;behind&quot; in German requires Dative case &quot;hinter unserer Wohnung&quot;, we can't use the Prepositional Phrase directly as an adjective because 'the people' is Nominative Case. Chinese has no qualms about this.)</p>
<p>In English, 2. requires a Relative Clause.</p>
<p>Personally, I find Chinese more rational.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-04-05T00:22:14.017Z
2022-04-05T00:22:14.017Z
Pedroski
<p>爐子裡的煤球很多 (there is plenty of coal inside the stove) is a complete sentence, without 的, it becomes two consecutive phrases - 爐子裡 煤球很多 (inside of the stove, there are many coals), which posses grammatical problem and does not sound good though acceptable.</p>
<p>This sentence really does not deviate from the norm - an object is possessed/contained by the primary subject in the sentence:</p>
<ul>
<li><p>鄰居的 房子 很漂亮.</p>
</li>
<li><p>我的 手機 沒電了.</p>
</li>
<li><p>爐子裡的 煤球 很多.</p>
</li>
<li><p>房子後(面)的 人 特別吵.</p>
</li>
</ul>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-05-06T17:47:58.180Z
2022-05-06T17:47:58.180Z
r13
<p>I do not know much about the book you are referencing, but I will just answer your question from the understanding of a native speaker. Firstly, the two sentences you mentioned, the first one &quot;爐子裡的煤球很多&quot; is correct, but the second one, like someone mentioned in the comment, is not. The correct sentence should be &quot;房子後<strong>面</strong>的人特別吵&quot;. This is because when saying &quot;behind&quot;, we like to say &quot;後面&quot; or in some cases &quot;後方&quot;, instead of just &quot;後&quot;.</p>
<p>When it comes to the grammar of this, I can't say with authority regarding the grammatical concepts, but essentially in Chinese when you want to describe a noun with a location, in addition to positions like &quot;裡&quot; or &quot;後面&quot;, you need to add &quot;的&quot;.</p>
<ul>
<li>天上的鳥 Birds in the sky (&quot;above the sky&quot; literally, &quot;天裡&quot; is incorrect)</li>
<li>水裡的魚 Fish in the water</li>
</ul>
<p>However, if you are using it as an independent thing then 的 is not necessary.</p>
<ul>
<li>我在房子裡 I am in the house</li>
</ul>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-04-04T12:10:33.013Z
2022-04-04T12:10:33.013Z
Leo Liang
<p>According to Paul (2015: 95), 裡 <em>lǐ</em>, 後 <em>hòu</em>, etc. are postpositions.</p>
<p>But in that case, how come do we have the subordinator 的 <em>de</em> just after a postposition, in sentences like 爐子裡的煤球很多 or 房子後的人特別吵 ?</p>
<p>Normally, 的 comes after a noun/pronoun (鄰居的房子, 我的手機), an adjective (嚴重的問題), or a clause (他們寫的不是詩).</p>
<p><strong>References</strong></p>
<p>Paul, W. (2015). <em>New perspectives on Chinese syntax</em>. De Gruyter Mouton.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-04-04T07:20:57.150Z
炉子里的煤球很多 still stands as a correct sentence if you remove 的, but 房子后的人特别吵 is not.
Lily White
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-04-04T09:26:22.640Z
Maybe (although I am not sure every native speaker would agree), but this is not really my question.
Starckman
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-04-04T12:01:24.160Z
What do you think postpositions mean? Or, why do you think 的 shouldn't be allowed after a postposition? After all, a *post*position forms a phrase with the *preceding* word, few restrictions are placed on what comes after. 炉子里的煤球很多 = The coal briquettes in the oven are numerous. vs. 炉子里煤球很多 = In the oven, (there are) many coal briquettes. A slight semantic difference, but the point is 的 turns the preceding phrase into a modifier for the following noun. Without 的, it modifies the whole sentence (in this case).
xngtng
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-04-04T12:24:25.110Z
@xngtng Thank you, yes, I agree with the semantic difference. I am considering asking this question on SE Linguistics (to make clear the linguistic aspect you mention at the beginning of your comment, and which is really the point of my question)
Starckman
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-04-04T19:54:03.763Z
I've just seen the title of your post on SE Linguistics, that is "Postposition + Subordinator + Noun", and maybe I understood what you are missing. In the sentences you mentioned there is not such a structure as Postposition+Subordinator+Noun (using your terms). The Postposition is not connected to the particle 的, but to the preceding noun, which I see you omitted in your title. The stucture is "(Noun+Postposition)+的+Noun".
Joe at wearyourchinesename.com
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-04-05T00:35:12.437Z
@GiuseppeRomanazzi Thank you for your answer. The postposition is linked to the the preceding noun, I do agree. If the head of the phrase Noun+Postposition is the postposition (which it normally is, since adpositions are heads of adpositional phrases), this means that, then, it is the postposition that is directly linked to 的. This is what I found weird, and what motivated me to ask this question.
Starckman
<grammar>
How to analyze phrases like 爐子裡的煤球很多 : postposition + 的
# How to analyze phrases like 爐子裡的煤球很多 : postposition + 的

(Asked by: username_0 on 2022-04-04)

According to Paul (2015: 95), 裡 *lǐ*, 後 *hòu*, etc. are postpositions.

But in that case, how come do we have the subordinator 的 *de* just after a postposition, in sentences like 爐子裡的煤球很多 or 房子後的人特別吵 ?

Normally, 的 comes after a noun/pronoun (鄰居的房子, 我的手機), an adjective (嚴重的問題), or a clause (他們寫的不是詩).

**References**

Paul, W. (2015). *New perspectives on Chinese syntax*. De Gruyter Mouton.

**Tags:** grammar

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: 炉子里的煤球很多 still stands as a correct sentence if you remove 的, but 房子后的人特别吵 is not.  
> **username_0**: Maybe (although I am not sure every native speaker would agree), but this is not really my question.  
> **username_2**: What do you think postpositions mean? Or, why do you think 的 shouldn't be allowed after a postposition? After all, a *post*position forms a phrase with the *preceding* word, few restrictions are placed on what comes after. 炉子里的煤球很多 = The coal briquettes in the oven are numerous. vs. 炉子里煤球很多 = In the oven, (there are) many coal briquettes. A slight semantic difference, but the point is 的 turns the preceding phrase into a modifier for the following noun. Without 的, it modifies the whole sentence (in this case).  
> **username_0**: @username_2 Thank you, yes, I agree with the semantic difference. I am considering asking this question on SE Linguistics (to make clear the linguistic aspect you mention at the beginning of your comment, and which is really the point of my question)  
> **username_3**: I've just seen the title of your post on SE Linguistics, that is "Postposition + Subordinator + Noun", and maybe I understood what you are missing. In the sentences you mentioned there is not such a structure as Postposition+Subordinator+Noun (using your terms). The Postposition is not connected to the particle 的, but to the preceding noun, which I see you omitted in your title. The stucture is "(Noun+Postposition)+的+Noun".  
> **username_0**: @GiuseppeRomanazzi Thank you for your answer. The postposition is linked to the the preceding noun, I do agree. If the head of the phrase Noun+Postposition is the postposition (which it normally is, since adpositions are heads of adpositional phrases), this means that, then, it is the postposition that is directly linked to 的. This is what I found weird, and what motivated me to ask this question.  

---

## 4 answers

### Answer by username_4 on 2022-04-06. Score: 1

This is not a “postposition + 的”, this is a “place + 的”, 爐子裡 is just a place that is “the place inside the stove”. 裡 and 的 are not on the same “layer”.

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: What are the tests used to decide that 爐子裡 is a place noun?  
> **username_4**: I do not have tests, but such interpretation makes 的 come after a noun…  

---

### Answer by username_5 on 2022-04-05. Score: 0

Not sure why you, or Meneer W. Paul, find this kind of sentence in any way unusual. Probably because Linguists like to confound!

炉子里的煤球很多。  
There are many briquettes in the stove.

房子后面的人特别吵。  
The people [who live behind our flat] are very noisy.

Prepositions in Western languages always carried "case" with them, be it accusative, dative, genitive or whatever. This precluded the direct use of prepositional phrases as adjectives, like: "The in the stove briquettes" because "the briquettes" will have their own case, dependent on their role in the sentence.

In Chinese, these are perfectly normal:

1. (The) in the stove briquettes (are) many.  
   (In German this kind of "in" requires Dative Case "im Ofen", but briquettes would be Nominative.)
2. The live behind our flat people (are) very noisy.

(Again, this "behind" in German requires Dative case "hinter unserer Wohnung", we can't use the Prepositional Phrase directly as an adjective because 'the people' is Nominative Case. Chinese has no qualms about this.)

In English, 2. requires a Relative Clause.

Personally, I find Chinese more rational.


---

### Answer by username_6 on 2022-05-06. Score: 0

爐子裡的煤球很多 (there is plenty of coal inside the stove) is a complete sentence, without 的, it becomes two consecutive phrases - 爐子裡 煤球很多 (inside of the stove, there are many coals), which posses grammatical problem and does not sound good though acceptable.

This sentence really does not deviate from the norm - an object is possessed/contained by the primary subject in the sentence:

* 鄰居的 房子 很漂亮.
* 我的 手機 沒電了.
* 爐子裡的 煤球 很多.
* 房子後(面)的 人 特別吵.


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### Answer by username_7 on 2022-04-04. Score: 0

I do not know much about the book you are referencing, but I will just answer your question from the understanding of a native speaker. Firstly, the two sentences you mentioned, the first one "爐子裡的煤球很多" is correct, but the second one, like someone mentioned in the comment, is not. The correct sentence should be "房子後**面**的人特別吵". This is because when saying "behind", we like to say "後面" or in some cases "後方", instead of just "後".

When it comes to the grammar of this, I can't say with authority regarding the grammatical concepts, but essentially in Chinese when you want to describe a noun with a location, in addition to positions like "裡" or "後面", you need to add "的".

* 天上的鳥 Birds in the sky ("above the sky" literally, "天裡" is incorrect)
* 水裡的魚 Fish in the water

However, if you are using it as an independent thing then 的 is not necessary.

* 我在房子裡 I am in the house


---

