<ol>
<li><p>There has never been an attempt in reconstructing Proto-Sino-Tibetan (PST, <em>Chin.</em> 漢藏語) for <em>eight</em>. What is shown in the link is perhaps a mislabel for another reconstruction, or an unreferenced, dubious attempt in PST reconstruction.</p>
</li>
<li><p>There were only five referenced Proto-Tibeto-Burman (PTB, <em>Chin.</em> 藏緬語) <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20201207042522/http://stedt.berkeley.edu/%7Estedt-cgi/rootcanal.pl/etymon/2259" rel="noreferrer">reconstructions</a>. PTB for <em>eight</em> is <code>*b-r-gyat ⪤ *b-g-ryat</code>. They are recognised as cognates.</p>
</li>
<li><p>The difference between PTB and PST is that Sinitic languages are excluded in the reconstruction of PTB. That does not mean, however, that there is no comparability between PTB and Chinese, as shown below.</p>
</li>
<li><p>From Wiktionary: 'This is a doubly prefixed root, justified mainly by Written Tibetan, Jingpho and Rgyalrong forms. As expected, this root was particularly prone to metathesis and preemption. The Chinese form, for example, shows preemption of the rest of the initial cluster by the labial prefix, resulting in a <code>*pr- &gt; p-</code> initial.' (As in <code>pˤret &gt; peat</code> from Old to Middle Chinese.)</p>
</li>
</ol>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-03-15T01:01:38.810Z
2021-03-15T01:01:38.810Z
L Parker
<p>Going on a hunch, the only database (that I knew of) which provided lots of conjectures on long-range etymology was <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Starostin" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Sergei Starostin</a>'s <a href="https://starling.rinet.ru/babel.php?lan=en" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><em>Tower of Babel</em></a> <a href="https://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/main.cgi?flags=eygtnnl" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><em>Etymology Databases</em></a>. One can quickly check in their <a href="https://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/query.cgi?root=config&amp;morpho=0&amp;basename=%5Cdata%5Csintib%5Cstibet" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Sino-Tibetan etymology database</a> (STED) that many of the columns in Wikipedia's <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_numbers_in_various_languages#Sino-Tibetan_languages" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Proto-Sino-Tibetan (Proto-ST) row</a> in the table seem to correspond to Proto-<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuki-Chin_languages" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Kuki-Chin</a> (Proto-KC).</p>
<p>The following is a list of reconstructions, taken from STED, for Proto-ST and Proto-KC:</p>
<div class="s-table-container">
<table class="s-table">
<thead>
<tr>
<th style="text-align: center;">Meaning</th>
<th style="text-align: center;">Proto-ST (Starostin<sup>1,3</sup>)</th>
<th style="text-align: center;">Proto-KC (Shafer<sup>2,3</sup>)</th>
<th style="text-align: center;">Proto-ST (Wikipedia)</th>
</tr>
</thead>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&amp;basename=%2Fdata%2Fsintib%2Fstibet&amp;text_number=%20580&amp;root=config" rel="nofollow noreferrer">two</a></td>
<td style="text-align: center;">*(k-)nĭj(-s, -ks)</td>
<td style="text-align: center;">*k-hnis</td>
<td style="text-align: center;">*k-nyis</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&amp;morpho=0&amp;basename=%5Cdata%5Csintib%5Cstibet&amp;first=1&amp;off=&amp;text_proto=&amp;method_proto=substring&amp;ic_proto=on&amp;text_meaning=three&amp;method_meaning=substring&amp;ic_meaning=on&amp;text_chin=&amp;method_chin=substring&amp;ic_chin=on&amp;text_tib=&amp;method_tib=substring&amp;ic_tib=on&amp;text_burm=&amp;method_burm=substring&amp;ic_burm=on&amp;text_kach=&amp;method_kach=substring&amp;ic_kach=on&amp;text_lush=&amp;method_lush=substring&amp;ic_lush=on&amp;text_lepcha=&amp;method_lepcha=substring&amp;ic_lepcha=on&amp;text_kir=&amp;method_kir=substring&amp;ic_kir=on&amp;text_comments=&amp;method_comments=substring&amp;ic_comments=on&amp;text_any=&amp;method_any=substring&amp;sort=proto&amp;ic_any=on" rel="nofollow noreferrer">three</a></td>
<td style="text-align: center;">*sɨ̄m</td>
<td style="text-align: center;">*k-in-thum</td>
<td style="text-align: center;">*k-t'um</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&amp;morpho=0&amp;basename=%5Cdata%5Csintib%5Cstibet&amp;first=1&amp;off=&amp;text_proto=&amp;method_proto=substring&amp;ic_proto=on&amp;text_meaning=four&amp;method_meaning=substring&amp;ic_meaning=on&amp;text_chin=&amp;method_chin=substring&amp;ic_chin=on&amp;text_tib=&amp;method_tib=substring&amp;ic_tib=on&amp;text_burm=&amp;method_burm=substring&amp;ic_burm=on&amp;text_kach=&amp;method_kach=substring&amp;ic_kach=on&amp;text_lush=&amp;method_lush=substring&amp;ic_lush=on&amp;text_lepcha=&amp;method_lepcha=substring&amp;ic_lepcha=on&amp;text_kir=&amp;method_kir=substring&amp;ic_kir=on&amp;text_comments=&amp;method_comments=substring&amp;ic_comments=on&amp;text_any=&amp;method_any=substring&amp;sort=proto&amp;ic_any=on" rel="nofollow noreferrer">four</a></td>
<td style="text-align: center;">*(p-)lĭj</td>
<td style="text-align: center;">*b-n-d'-li</td>
<td style="text-align: center;">*p-li</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&amp;morpho=0&amp;basename=%5Cdata%5Csintib%5Cstibet&amp;first=1&amp;off=&amp;text_proto=&amp;method_proto=substring&amp;ic_proto=on&amp;text_meaning=six&amp;method_meaning=substring&amp;ic_meaning=on&amp;text_chin=&amp;method_chin=substring&amp;ic_chin=on&amp;text_tib=&amp;method_tib=substring&amp;ic_tib=on&amp;text_burm=&amp;method_burm=substring&amp;ic_burm=on&amp;text_kach=&amp;method_kach=substring&amp;ic_kach=on&amp;text_lush=&amp;method_lush=substring&amp;ic_lush=on&amp;text_lepcha=&amp;method_lepcha=substring&amp;ic_lepcha=on&amp;text_kir=&amp;method_kir=substring&amp;ic_kir=on&amp;text_comments=&amp;method_comments=substring&amp;ic_comments=on&amp;text_any=&amp;method_any=substring&amp;sort=proto&amp;ic_any=on" rel="nofollow noreferrer">six</a></td>
<td style="text-align: center;">*rŭk</td>
<td style="text-align: center;">*t-r<sup>1</sup>uk</td>
<td style="text-align: center;">*(t-, k-)r'uk</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&amp;morpho=0&amp;basename=%5Cdata%5Csintib%5Cstibet&amp;first=1&amp;off=&amp;text_proto=&amp;method_proto=substring&amp;ic_proto=on&amp;text_meaning=seven&amp;method_meaning=substring&amp;ic_meaning=on&amp;text_chin=&amp;method_chin=substring&amp;ic_chin=on&amp;text_tib=&amp;method_tib=substring&amp;ic_tib=on&amp;text_burm=&amp;method_burm=substring&amp;ic_burm=on&amp;text_kach=&amp;method_kach=substring&amp;ic_kach=on&amp;text_lush=&amp;method_lush=substring&amp;ic_lush=on&amp;text_lepcha=&amp;method_lepcha=substring&amp;ic_lepcha=on&amp;text_kir=&amp;method_kir=substring&amp;ic_kir=on&amp;text_comments=&amp;method_comments=substring&amp;ic_comments=on&amp;text_any=&amp;method_any=substring&amp;sort=proto&amp;ic_any=on" rel="nofollow noreferrer">seven</a></td>
<td style="text-align: center;">*(s-)nĭt</td>
<td style="text-align: center;">*s-Nis</td>
<td style="text-align: center;">*s.Nis</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&amp;basename=%2Fdata%2Fsintib%2Fstibet&amp;text_number=%20764&amp;root=config" rel="nofollow noreferrer">eight</a></td>
<td style="text-align: center;">*(p-)rjēt</td>
<td style="text-align: center;">*t-r<sup>1</sup>iat</td>
<td style="text-align: center;">*t-r'iat</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&amp;morpho=0&amp;basename=%5Cdata%5Csintib%5Cstibet&amp;first=1&amp;off=&amp;text_proto=&amp;method_proto=substring&amp;ic_proto=on&amp;text_meaning=nine&amp;method_meaning=substring&amp;ic_meaning=on&amp;text_chin=&amp;method_chin=substring&amp;ic_chin=on&amp;text_tib=&amp;method_tib=substring&amp;ic_tib=on&amp;text_burm=&amp;method_burm=substring&amp;ic_burm=on&amp;text_kach=&amp;method_kach=substring&amp;ic_kach=on&amp;text_lush=&amp;method_lush=substring&amp;ic_lush=on&amp;text_lepcha=&amp;method_lepcha=substring&amp;ic_lepcha=on&amp;text_kir=&amp;method_kir=substring&amp;ic_kir=on&amp;text_comments=&amp;method_comments=substring&amp;ic_comments=on&amp;text_any=&amp;method_any=substring&amp;sort=proto&amp;ic_any=on" rel="nofollow noreferrer">nine</a></td>
<td style="text-align: center;">*kʷɨ̆H</td>
<td style="text-align: center;">*tV-kua</td>
<td style="text-align: center;">*t-kua</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
<blockquote>
<p><sub><sup>1</sup> Proto-ST based on Starostin 1989 (Реконструкция древнекитайскойфонологической системы)</sub><br>
<sub><sup>2 </sup>Proto-KC based on Robert Shafer's reconstruction</sub><br>
<sub><sup>3 </sup>See <a href="https://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/bdescr.cgi?root=config&amp;morpho=0&amp;basename=%5Cdata%5Csintib%5Cstibet" rel="nofollow noreferrer">STED description</a> for details</sub></p>
</blockquote>
<p>You'll have to look into Shafer's publications to understand the notation fully, but I believe that Shafer did indeed reconstruct Proto-KC <em>eight</em> with an <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alveolar_stop" rel="nofollow noreferrer">alveolar stop</a> prefix. This corresponds nicely to <a href="https://stedt.berkeley.edu/%7Estedt-cgi/rootcanal.pl/etymon/2259" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Berkeley's STEDT</a> for <em>eight</em>, where, underneath the Northeastern Indian Areal Group, the Proto Kuki form was also reconstructed with an alveolar stop prefix (<strong>*d-ryat</strong>).</p>
<p>Anyway - I'm not sure if Wikipedia's Proto-ST entries are actually Proto-ST, you might get some answers, or some citations, if you raise an issue on that page's discussion.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-03-15T08:07:36.037Z
2021-03-15T10:10:19.407Z
2021-03-15T10:10:19.407Z
dROOOze
<p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_numbers_in_various_languages#Sino-Tibetan_languages" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Here</a> the Proto-Sino-Tibetan for <em>eight</em> is reconstructed as <code>*t-r'iat</code>, but no explanation is given as to why.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-03-14T21:10:11.477Z
a question perhaps better suited for the linguistics stackexchange
小奥利奥
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-03-14T21:40:07.843Z
I'm not sure what reconstruction they're giving - it doesn't seem to provide a reference? [Wiktionary](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Sino-Tibetan/b-r-gjat_~_b-g-rjat) shows something quite different, and are all referenced -  *b-r-gjat ~ b-g-rjat
dROOOze
<etymology>
Why is the Proto-Sino-Tibetan word for "eight" reconstructed as "triat", when in nearly all Sino-Tibetan languages it begins with either 'p' or 'b'?
# Why is the Proto-Sino-Tibetan word for "eight" reconstructed as "triat", when in nearly all Sino-Tibetan languages it begins with either 'p' or 'b'?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2021-03-14)

[Here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_numbers_in_various_languages#Sino-Tibetan_languages) the Proto-Sino-Tibetan for *eight* is reconstructed as `*t-r'iat`, but no explanation is given as to why.

**Tags:** etymology

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: a question perhaps better suited for the linguistics stackexchange  
> **username_2**: I'm not sure what reconstruction they're giving - it doesn't seem to provide a reference? [Wiktionary](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Sino-Tibetan/b-r-gjat_~_b-g-rjat) shows something quite different, and are all referenced -  *b-r-gjat ~ b-g-rjat  

---

## 2 answers

### Answer by username_2 on 2021-03-15. Score: 3 | Accepted answer

Going on a hunch, the only database (that I knew of) which provided lots of conjectures on long-range etymology was [Sergei Starostin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Starostin)'s [*Tower of Babel*](https://starling.rinet.ru/babel.php?lan=en) [*Etymology Databases*](https://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/main.cgi?flags=eygtnnl). One can quickly check in their [Sino-Tibetan etymology database](https://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/query.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=%5Cdata%5Csintib%5Cstibet) (STED) that many of the columns in Wikipedia's [Proto-Sino-Tibetan (Proto-ST) row](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_numbers_in_various_languages#Sino-Tibetan_languages) in the table seem to correspond to Proto-[Kuki-Chin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuki-Chin_languages) (Proto-KC).

The following is a list of reconstructions, taken from STED, for Proto-ST and Proto-KC:

| Meaning | Proto-ST (Starostin1,3) | Proto-KC (Shafer2,3) | Proto-ST (Wikipedia) |
| --- | --- | --- | --- |
| [two](https://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2Fdata%2Fsintib%2Fstibet&text_number=%20580&root=config) | \*(k-)nĭj(-s, -ks) | \*k-hnis | \*k-nyis |
| [three](https://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=%5Cdata%5Csintib%5Cstibet&first=1&off=&text_proto=&method_proto=substring&ic_proto=on&text_meaning=three&method_meaning=substring&ic_meaning=on&text_chin=&method_chin=substring&ic_chin=on&text_tib=&method_tib=substring&ic_tib=on&text_burm=&method_burm=substring&ic_burm=on&text_kach=&method_kach=substring&ic_kach=on&text_lush=&method_lush=substring&ic_lush=on&text_lepcha=&method_lepcha=substring&ic_lepcha=on&text_kir=&method_kir=substring&ic_kir=on&text_comments=&method_comments=substring&ic_comments=on&text_any=&method_any=substring&sort=proto&ic_any=on) | \*sɨ̄m | \*k-in-thum | \*k-t'um |
| [four](https://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=%5Cdata%5Csintib%5Cstibet&first=1&off=&text_proto=&method_proto=substring&ic_proto=on&text_meaning=four&method_meaning=substring&ic_meaning=on&text_chin=&method_chin=substring&ic_chin=on&text_tib=&method_tib=substring&ic_tib=on&text_burm=&method_burm=substring&ic_burm=on&text_kach=&method_kach=substring&ic_kach=on&text_lush=&method_lush=substring&ic_lush=on&text_lepcha=&method_lepcha=substring&ic_lepcha=on&text_kir=&method_kir=substring&ic_kir=on&text_comments=&method_comments=substring&ic_comments=on&text_any=&method_any=substring&sort=proto&ic_any=on) | \*(p-)lĭj | \*b-n-d'-li | \*p-li |
| [six](https://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=%5Cdata%5Csintib%5Cstibet&first=1&off=&text_proto=&method_proto=substring&ic_proto=on&text_meaning=six&method_meaning=substring&ic_meaning=on&text_chin=&method_chin=substring&ic_chin=on&text_tib=&method_tib=substring&ic_tib=on&text_burm=&method_burm=substring&ic_burm=on&text_kach=&method_kach=substring&ic_kach=on&text_lush=&method_lush=substring&ic_lush=on&text_lepcha=&method_lepcha=substring&ic_lepcha=on&text_kir=&method_kir=substring&ic_kir=on&text_comments=&method_comments=substring&ic_comments=on&text_any=&method_any=substring&sort=proto&ic_any=on) | \*rŭk | \*t-r1uk | \*(t-, k-)r'uk |
| [seven](https://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=%5Cdata%5Csintib%5Cstibet&first=1&off=&text_proto=&method_proto=substring&ic_proto=on&text_meaning=seven&method_meaning=substring&ic_meaning=on&text_chin=&method_chin=substring&ic_chin=on&text_tib=&method_tib=substring&ic_tib=on&text_burm=&method_burm=substring&ic_burm=on&text_kach=&method_kach=substring&ic_kach=on&text_lush=&method_lush=substring&ic_lush=on&text_lepcha=&method_lepcha=substring&ic_lepcha=on&text_kir=&method_kir=substring&ic_kir=on&text_comments=&method_comments=substring&ic_comments=on&text_any=&method_any=substring&sort=proto&ic_any=on) | \*(s-)nĭt | \*s-Nis | \*s.Nis |
| [eight](https://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2Fdata%2Fsintib%2Fstibet&text_number=%20764&root=config) | \*(p-)rjēt | \*t-r1iat | \*t-r'iat |
| [nine](https://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=%5Cdata%5Csintib%5Cstibet&first=1&off=&text_proto=&method_proto=substring&ic_proto=on&text_meaning=nine&method_meaning=substring&ic_meaning=on&text_chin=&method_chin=substring&ic_chin=on&text_tib=&method_tib=substring&ic_tib=on&text_burm=&method_burm=substring&ic_burm=on&text_kach=&method_kach=substring&ic_kach=on&text_lush=&method_lush=substring&ic_lush=on&text_lepcha=&method_lepcha=substring&ic_lepcha=on&text_kir=&method_kir=substring&ic_kir=on&text_comments=&method_comments=substring&ic_comments=on&text_any=&method_any=substring&sort=proto&ic_any=on) | \*kʷɨ̆H | \*tV-kua | \*t-kua |

> 1 Proto-ST based on Starostin 1989 (Реконструкция древнекитайскойфонологической системы)  
> 2 Proto-KC based on Robert Shafer's reconstruction  
> 3 See [STED description](https://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/bdescr.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=%5Cdata%5Csintib%5Cstibet) for details

You'll have to look into Shafer's publications to understand the notation fully, but I believe that Shafer did indeed reconstruct Proto-KC *eight* with an [alveolar stop](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alveolar_stop) prefix. This corresponds nicely to [Berkeley's STEDT](https://stedt.berkeley.edu/%7Estedt-cgi/rootcanal.pl/etymon/2259) for *eight*, where, underneath the Northeastern Indian Areal Group, the Proto Kuki form was also reconstructed with an alveolar stop prefix (**\*d-ryat**).

Anyway - I'm not sure if Wikipedia's Proto-ST entries are actually Proto-ST, you might get some answers, or some citations, if you raise an issue on that page's discussion.


---

### Answer by username_3 on 2021-03-15. Score: 5

1. There has never been an attempt in reconstructing Proto-Sino-Tibetan (PST, *Chin.* 漢藏語) for *eight*. What is shown in the link is perhaps a mislabel for another reconstruction, or an unreferenced, dubious attempt in PST reconstruction.
2. There were only five referenced Proto-Tibeto-Burman (PTB, *Chin.* 藏緬語) [reconstructions](http://web.archive.org/web/20201207042522/http://stedt.berkeley.edu/%7Estedt-cgi/rootcanal.pl/etymon/2259). PTB for *eight* is `*b-r-gyat ⪤ *b-g-ryat`. They are recognised as cognates.
3. The difference between PTB and PST is that Sinitic languages are excluded in the reconstruction of PTB. That does not mean, however, that there is no comparability between PTB and Chinese, as shown below.
4. From Wiktionary: 'This is a doubly prefixed root, justified mainly by Written Tibetan, Jingpho and Rgyalrong forms. As expected, this root was particularly prone to metathesis and preemption. The Chinese form, for example, shows preemption of the rest of the initial cluster by the labial prefix, resulting in a `*pr- > p-` initial.' (As in `pˤret > peat` from Old to Middle Chinese.)


---

