<p>Yes, you're right. The phenomenon of 豆腐 dòufu is the result of tone sandhi (连续变调 liánxù biàndiào). IME does not support tone sandhi, so you're unable to search for it as a neutral tone. The only accepted tone entry for 腐 is 3rd tone fǔ.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-02T09:26:43.923Z
"IME does not support tone sandhi" that's a pretty bold statement
50-3
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-02T16:26:48.233Z
@50-3 Well, it's true - you need to type the dictionary reading of each character, regardless of the ones that come before or after.
neubau
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-02T21:19:48.583Z
I forgot to mention that IME will have heteronym (破音字 pò yīn zì). The standard accepted change in tones in certain words. It's interesting that sandhi and heteronym are similar (both concerning the change in tone of a character) yet are not regarded as the same thing.
amateur
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-02T21:21:17.853Z
Here's a link to a list of 100 common heteronyms http://www.chinesewaytogo.org/teachers_corner/phonetic/broke/brokepho.php
amateur
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-03T04:16:19.663Z
I think there's a chance I got a bad dictionary entry from Wiktionary. Their policy is that entries should have the dictionary tones but of course there are all kinds of errors. Personally I wish their entries would clearly indicate both the "before" and "after" sandhi tones. I want to check some more dictionaries...
hippietrail
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-03T04:19:34.230Z
@amateur: So is there a tone sandhi rule that `4 3` changes to `4 5`?
hippietrail
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-03T05:20:36.167Z
I don't know. That's too deep for me. I don't pay attention to sandhi. It's too technical and in the linguistics field, which I hope is beyond what most students are interested to read up on. That's like researching for a book already or writing some academic article.
amateur
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-03T05:31:58.403Z
I've posted a followup question to attempt to figure out what is and what is not tone sandhi: [Is there a tone sandhi rule that “4 3” changes to “4 0”?](http://chinese.stackexchange.com/questions/5750)
hippietrail
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-03T05:39:27.887Z
@amateur: I haven't done a survey so I can't claim to know what most students are interested in. I only know how I learn languages and I like to understand the terms and know if when they're used correctly. I'd hate to ban deep or technical questions because some proportion of people do vs don't avoid deep or technical aspects when learning languages.
hippietrail
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-03T05:51:40.627Z
Cool. There's a chat feature? :D Well, I imagine most students don't delve so deep into a language. More power to you for having so much interest in a language. I'm also interested to see if someone can explain more about sandhi rules.
amateur
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-03T06:45:44.550Z
@amateur: I've discovered that there is another feature of Chinese phonology that probably gets confused with tone sandhi and that confusion is not helped by inconsistent indication of tones in dictionaries. See Wikipedia on ["Standard Chinese phonology / Syllable reduction"])https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology#Syllable_reduction).
hippietrail
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-02T04:30:04.153Z
2014-02-02T04:30:04.153Z
amateur
<p>I'm teaching myself bopomofo/zhuyin keyboard while I'm in Taiwan. My Chinese level is raw beginner too.</p>

<p>I just came across the word for tofu:</p>

<ul>
<li>Hanzi: <code>豆腐</code></li>
<li>Pinyin: <code>dòufu</code></li>
<li>Zhuyin: <code>ㄉㄡˋㄈㄨ·</code> (or <code>ㄉㄡˋㄈㄨ˙</code>)</li>
</ul>

<p>We can see that the second syllable is tone 0 a.k.a. tone 5</p>

<p>But if I try to enter it using Microsoft Chinese Traditional New Phonetic IME this way the computer beeps and will not accept the final syllable.</p>

<p>When I look up just the last syllable on its own, it's actually tone 3:</p>

<ul>
<li>Hanzi <code>腐</code></li>
<li>Pinyin <code>fǔ</code></li>
<li>Zhuyin: <code>ㄈㄨˇ</code></li>
</ul>

<p>If I type the whole word as <code>ㄉㄡˋㄈㄨˇ</code> in the IME then indeed it does work.</p>

<p>So what's the explanation for this? Is it due to tone sandhi? Or is it a quirk of the IME? Or is it related to some other property of two syllable words and tone 0/5? Is there a name for this and where can I read more about it?</p>

<hr>

<p>The English Wiktionary and Google Translate both list <code>豆腐</code> as having tone 4 + no tone. But I can't be sure whether they are listing pre- or post- tone sandhi rules.</p>

<p>But Baidu dictionary and the book "Chinese for Everyday Scenarios" I've found here in Taiwan lists <code>豆腐</code> as having tone 4 + tone 3.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-01T12:08:52.053Z
Community, I made two tags for the same thing since some people call it zeroth tone and some call it tone five. Please choose whichever is best and make the other a tag synonym.
hippietrail
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-01T21:56:05.767Z
I think it's actually called a neutral tone aswell or 轻声 qīng shēng, literal meaning: "light tone".
50-3
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-02T02:16:41.630Z
I believe most IMEs work like this, whether using pinyin or zhuyin. This is also how you would look up a [word](http://www.zdic.net/c/6/28/60585.htm) in the dictionary based on the pinyin or zhuyin of individual characters.
杨以轩
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-03T03:55:09.423Z
@50-3: I consciously avoided calling it neutral tone because in pinyin tone 0/5 is not marked whereas in zhuyin it's tone 1 which is not marked and it seems logical that some people would equate a concept of a neutral tone with a tone that isn't written.
hippietrail
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-03T03:57:36.823Z
@QuestionOverflow: In the pinyin IMEs I've used it seems you never type the tone and the number key is used to select a candidate. With the zhuyin IMEs I've used it seems you must type the tone to get the correct candidate list and if you don't type a tone you will only see candidates that have the first tone, which is the default tone in zhuyin and doesn't have a mark so isn't typed. I was really surprised how different they are.
hippietrail
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-03T14:59:06.540Z
@hippietrail, it really depends on the IME you are using. Those that do not allow you to enter tones would need to have the predictive text ability turn on.
杨以轩
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-02-03T17:24:10.807Z
@QuestionOverflow: I've been asking locals which IME they use and how they use them. Also asking a question here so that I can try to use what most people use. But there is still a bit of language barrier between me and the locals when trying to discuss it so I don't get all the details.
hippietrail
<tones><input-methods><zhuyin-fuhao>
Zhuyin IME and tone 0/5 syllables
# Zhuyin IME and tone 0/5 syllables

(Asked by: username_0 on 2014-02-01)

I'm teaching myself bopomofo/zhuyin keyboard while I'm in Taiwan. My Chinese level is raw beginner too.

I just came across the word for tofu:

* Hanzi: `豆腐`
* Pinyin: `dòufu`
* Zhuyin: `ㄉㄡˋㄈㄨ·` (or `ㄉㄡˋㄈㄨ˙`)

We can see that the second syllable is tone 0 a.k.a. tone 5

But if I try to enter it using Microsoft Chinese Traditional New Phonetic IME this way the computer beeps and will not accept the final syllable.

When I look up just the last syllable on its own, it's actually tone 3:

* Hanzi `腐`
* Pinyin `fǔ`
* Zhuyin: `ㄈㄨˇ`

If I type the whole word as `ㄉㄡˋㄈㄨˇ` in the IME then indeed it does work.

So what's the explanation for this? Is it due to tone sandhi? Or is it a quirk of the IME? Or is it related to some other property of two syllable words and tone 0/5? Is there a name for this and where can I read more about it?

---

The English Wiktionary and Google Translate both list `豆腐` as having tone 4 + no tone. But I can't be sure whether they are listing pre- or post- tone sandhi rules.

But Baidu dictionary and the book "Chinese for Everyday Scenarios" I've found here in Taiwan lists `豆腐` as having tone 4 + tone 3.

**Tags:** tones, input-methods, zhuyin-fuhao

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Community, I made two tags for the same thing since some people call it zeroth tone and some call it tone five. Please choose whichever is best and make the other a tag synonym.  
> **username_1**: I think it's actually called a neutral tone aswell or 轻声 qīng shēng, literal meaning: "light tone".  
> **username_2**: I believe most IMEs work like this, whether using pinyin or zhuyin. This is also how you would look up a [word](http://www.zdic.net/c/6/28/60585.htm) in the dictionary based on the pinyin or zhuyin of individual characters.  
> **username_0**: @username_1: I consciously avoided calling it neutral tone because in pinyin tone 0/5 is not marked whereas in zhuyin it's tone 1 which is not marked and it seems logical that some people would equate a concept of a neutral tone with a tone that isn't written.  
> **username_0**: @QuestionOverflow: In the pinyin IMEs I've used it seems you never type the tone and the number key is used to select a candidate. With the zhuyin IMEs I've used it seems you must type the tone to get the correct candidate list and if you don't type a tone you will only see candidates that have the first tone, which is the default tone in zhuyin and doesn't have a mark so isn't typed. I was really surprised how different they are.  
> **username_2**: @username_0, it really depends on the IME you are using. Those that do not allow you to enter tones would need to have the predictive text ability turn on.  
> **username_0**: @QuestionOverflow: I've been asking locals which IME they use and how they use them. Also asking a question here so that I can try to use what most people use. But there is still a bit of language barrier between me and the locals when trying to discuss it so I don't get all the details.  

---

## 1 answers

### Answer by username_3 on 2014-02-02. Score: 4

Yes, you're right. The phenomenon of 豆腐 dòufu is the result of tone sandhi (连续变调 liánxù biàndiào). IME does not support tone sandhi, so you're unable to search for it as a neutral tone. The only accepted tone entry for 腐 is 3rd tone fǔ.

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: "IME does not support tone sandhi" that's a pretty bold statement  
> **username_4**: @username_1 Well, it's true - you need to type the dictionary reading of each character, regardless of the ones that come before or after.  
> **username_3**: I forgot to mention that IME will have heteronym (破音字 pò yīn zì). The standard accepted change in tones in certain words. It's interesting that sandhi and heteronym are similar (both concerning the change in tone of a character) yet are not regarded as the same thing.  
> **username_3**: Here's a link to a list of 100 common heteronyms http://www.chinesewaytogo.org/teachers_corner/phonetic/broke/brokepho.php  
> **username_0**: I think there's a chance I got a bad dictionary entry from Wiktionary. Their policy is that entries should have the dictionary tones but of course there are all kinds of errors. Personally I wish their entries would clearly indicate both the "before" and "after" sandhi tones. I want to check some more dictionaries...  
> **username_0**: @username_3: So is there a tone sandhi rule that `4 3` changes to `4 5`?  
> **username_3**: I don't know. That's too deep for me. I don't pay attention to sandhi. It's too technical and in the linguistics field, which I hope is beyond what most students are interested to read up on. That's like researching for a book already or writing some academic article.  
> **username_0**: I've posted a followup question to attempt to figure out what is and what is not tone sandhi: [Is there a tone sandhi rule that “4 3” changes to “4 0”?](http://chinese.stackexchange.com/questions/5750)  
> **username_0**: @username_3: I haven't done a survey so I can't claim to know what most students are interested in. I only know how I learn languages and I like to understand the terms and know if when they're used correctly. I'd hate to ban deep or technical questions because some proportion of people do vs don't avoid deep or technical aspects when learning languages.  
> **username_3**: Cool. There's a chat feature? :D Well, I imagine most students don't delve so deep into a language. More power to you for having so much interest in a language. I'm also interested to see if someone can explain more about sandhi rules.  
> **username_0**: @username_3: I've discovered that there is another feature of Chinese phonology that probably gets confused with tone sandhi and that confusion is not helped by inconsistent indication of tones in dictionaries. See Wikipedia on ["Standard Chinese phonology / Syllable reduction"])https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology#Syllable_reduction).  

---

