<blockquote>
<p>China is partitioned in 1857, with Southern China coming under a Cantonese-speaking monarchy, and the north remaining under the Qing. They are reunified in the 1930s, and thus would require an official language and lingua franca. China is limited to China proper. Taiwan was successfully colonized by the Dutch</p>
</blockquote>
<p>an interesting alternate world </p>
<p>my suggestions:</p>
<p>set the base of this sino-language to <a href="http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-mf/initialTable.php" rel="nofollow noreferrer">19 initials</a>, and <a href="http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-mf/finalTable.php" rel="nofollow noreferrer">56 finals</a>, and 9 tones.</p>
<p><strong>if cantonese is more influential</strong>, adding a few more, emphasise the entering tone. if mandarin is more influential, subtract all 18 stop coda </p>
<p>to make it more exotic, adding retroflex, according to dutch language </p>
<blockquote>
<p>table of consonants</p>
</blockquote>
<p>to persuade others that you’re talking about a sino-language; you need to compose a table of initials (聲母表), a table of finals (韻母表), indicating how many tones used (聲調).</p>
<p>then, compose a table of syllables, something like these:</p>
<p><a href="http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-mf/syllables.php" rel="nofollow noreferrer">cantonese syllables</a></p>
<p><a href="http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-mf/mandarin_syllables.php" rel="nofollow noreferrer">mandarin syllables</a></p>
<p>have fun :)</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-10-03T05:00:36.007Z
Thank you for your help! A few questions, if I want to make it more like Nanjing Mandarin, what would be the best way to do that? I was thinking:

- Add [ʂ]/[ʃ] & [ʐ] initials
- Adding medials to the finals chart (ia, iao, ian, iang, ie, iou, iong, ua, uai, uan, uang, uei, uen, ueng). 
- If medials are added, how would that change the rest of the finals chart? Would it make sense to remove some Cantonese finals/vowels. If so, which?

Thank you again!
Omar 
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-10-03T07:44:28.540Z
@Omar, well, first of all, do you want to keep entering tone (finals ends with -p, -t, or -k), if not, chop them; the result would be “less-cantonese”. secondly, if you add medials, the table of finals would larger, to keep it reasonable, chop some finals. maybe, you compose the table of finals first, ask again, i’ll adjust it accordingly. btw, how serious do you need? a “sino-language” withstand linguists’ criticise, or, fantasy?
水巷孑蠻
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-10-03T08:45:31.743Z
[Here](https://wiki.rosestulipsandliberty.com/wiki/Talk:Mandarin#Cantonese-influenced_ONP) is the link to the page with the initials, finals, and some ideas.

Ideally the language should be accurate and believable to your average Chinese speaker, can be written/romanized fairly easily. Any insight from a linguist/language expert like yourself is greatly appreciated! :) @水巷孑蠻
Omar 
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-10-04T13:02:08.973Z
@Omar, i read, and thought about the chart, some points you need to clarify: 1 why “亞” (glottal x stop-plain) 2 the cuhk site has alveolar & post-alveolar, why these two are merged together in the chart? (知，雌，思) 3 羅 is approximant x alveolar; while in cuhk site, it’s lateral x alveolar?
水巷孑蠻
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-10-09T08:09:11.007Z
1) put 亞 there just in case I got rid of entering tone, 2) for simplicity, I'll add post when it's complete, 3) that was a mistake, I'll change it. 

What do you think of removing the retroflex 書 & 肉 sounds and the entering tone? Maybe merge 書 into [s] completely, remove 肉, & -p, -t, -k all become glottal stops?

For the finals chart - does it make sense & how to improve it? Would it be better to start with the Mandarin final chart instead and modify it from there, since many of these final sounds would be new for Mandarin speakers? @水巷孑蠻
Omar 
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-10-09T08:45:56.213Z
@Omar, “Would it be better to start with the Mandarin final chart”, of course **no** lah  it’s against the supposed partitioned-china setting. if a cantonese-speaking monarchy ruled the southern region between 1857-1930s, one should assume the strong influence of cantonese. that, during the unified period (1930s - today), it might not be the most influential, cantonese would be the second one.
水巷孑蠻
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-10-09T08:55:44.760Z
@Omar, “since many of these final sounds would be new for Mandarin speakers” well, new for **living** mandarin speakers. cantonese (and some other southern languages) preserved entering tones, which make it more correlated to middle, and/or old chinese. rhyme books of yore are still valid in cantonese, and, un-useable in mandarin. come on, be inventive, throw away the mandarin, in the alternate world 
水巷孑蠻
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-10-17T14:07:45.353Z
You're right! 

Here's a Reddit thread I made about the language, what do you think about the answers? [Link](https://www.reddit.com/r/ChineseLanguage/comments/xzh07v/would_love_input_on_making_an_alternate_history/).
Omar 
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-10-18T02:45:26.077Z
@Omar, “the two are reunified by the south”, “China does not have Manchuria, Inner Mongolia, Xinjiang, or Tibet in this world” & “The new Chinese Republic is chauvinist”. well, with such settings, here’re my suggestions: 1. **stick to current cantonese initials & finals**, equal to “king’s english”. less-educated, laymen from various regions would speak a mandarin infiltrated cantonese, equal to regional accented english in uk.
水巷孑蠻
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-10-18T02:49:25.023Z
@Omar, it would be easier to describe the sino-language development, than composing charts of initials and finals to reflect what would be actually spoken. so,  the “china” is unified by the south, cantonese is still the most influential. and, the republic aft unification is chauvinist, that the ministry of education emphasised cantonese is more correlated to the middle, old chinese; that mandarin is **inferior** in reading poems, and rhymed texts. so, to educate all people to become more “han-chinese”, more traditional, cantonese is the official language used.
水巷孑蠻
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-10-18T02:50:57.280Z
@Omar, meanwhile, mandarin infiltrated cantonese is acceptable, just being subtlety prejudiced by pure cantonese speakers. in short, emphasise the entering tone (入聲) in the supposed sino-language, those who can speak it is in top-strata, those who can’t is in lower one; the more mandarin spoken, the lower strata one is in.
水巷孑蠻
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-10-18T03:16:11.957Z
@Omar, last, providing this anecdote: students sit exams for composing poems weekly, since early childhood  civil servants who passed similar examination would have additional increment in salary  citizens passed similar examination would have lower tax rate  the rationale of these policies is: to testify poems, one  need a rhyme book, and such rhyme book is derived from 平水韻. that, any southern languages (cantonese, hakka, hokkien, . . . etc) whose has entering tone, their speakers would have advantages in such exams. a subtle ways to promote cantonese by the government 
水巷孑蠻
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-10-01T05:25:33.020Z
2022-10-01T05:25:33.020Z
水巷孑蠻
<p>I need advice/help on creating a system similar to the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_National_Pronunciation" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Old National Pronunciation</a> system/language for a worldbuilding project called <a href="https://rtl.miraheze.org/wiki/Main_Page" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Roses, Tulips, and Liberty</a>.</p>
<p>Some background: Imagines, it's a world in which China is partitioned in 1857, with Southern China coming under a Cantonese-speaking monarchy, and the north remaining under the Qing. They are reunified in the 1930s, and thus would require an official language and lingua franca. China is limited to China proper. Taiwan was successfully colonized by the Dutch.</p>
<p>This new language would ideally combine the phonologies of Mandarin dialects and Cantonese, or a good compromise. I attached an image of an in-progress table of consonants below. Does it look like the phonology of an actual Chinese dialect? What changes would you make? Do you have any recommendations on how to further develop this (including tones, vowels, endings, romanization, etc)?</p>
<p>Thank you!</p>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/jD23p.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/jD23p.png" alt="." /></a></p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-10-06T02:26:37.103Z
Where do you define Southern China? Southern China is riddled with mountain ranges and as a result have vastly different dialects. I don't think it is possible for a monarchy, even an authoritarian, to impose Cantonese on all of them.
Lily White
<cantonese><topolect><history><phonology><ipa>
A Cantonese-influenced Old National Pronunciation (老國音) system
# A Cantonese-influenced Old National Pronunciation (老國音) system

(Asked by: username_0 on 2022-10-01)

I need advice/help on creating a system similar to the [Old National Pronunciation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_National_Pronunciation) system/language for a worldbuilding project called [Roses, Tulips, and Liberty](https://rtl.miraheze.org/wiki/Main_Page).

Some background: Imagines, it's a world in which China is partitioned in 1857, with Southern China coming under a Cantonese-speaking monarchy, and the north remaining under the Qing. They are reunified in the 1930s, and thus would require an official language and lingua franca. China is limited to China proper. Taiwan was successfully colonized by the Dutch.

This new language would ideally combine the phonologies of Mandarin dialects and Cantonese, or a good compromise. I attached an image of an in-progress table of consonants below. Does it look like the phonology of an actual Chinese dialect? What changes would you make? Do you have any recommendations on how to further develop this (including tones, vowels, endings, romanization, etc)?

Thank you!

[![.](https://i.sstatic.net/jD23p.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/jD23p.png)

**Tags:** cantonese, topolect, history, phonology, ipa

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: Where do you define Southern China? Southern China is riddled with mountain ranges and as a result have vastly different dialects. I don't think it is possible for a monarchy, even an authoritarian, to impose Cantonese on all of them.  

---

## 1 answers

### Answer by username_2 on 2022-10-01. Score: 2

> China is partitioned in 1857, with Southern China coming under a Cantonese-speaking monarchy, and the north remaining under the Qing. They are reunified in the 1930s, and thus would require an official language and lingua franca. China is limited to China proper. Taiwan was successfully colonized by the Dutch

an interesting alternate world

my suggestions:

set the base of this sino-language to [19 initials](http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-mf/initialTable.php), and [56 finals](http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-mf/finalTable.php), and 9 tones.

**if cantonese is more influential**, adding a few more, emphasise the entering tone. if mandarin is more influential, subtract all 18 stop coda

to make it more exotic, adding retroflex, according to dutch language

> table of consonants

to persuade others that you’re talking about a sino-language; you need to compose a table of initials (聲母表), a table of finals (韻母表), indicating how many tones used (聲調).

then, compose a table of syllables, something like these:

[cantonese syllables](http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-mf/syllables.php)

[mandarin syllables](http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-mf/mandarin_syllables.php)

have fun :)

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Thank you for your help! A few questions, if I want to make it more like Nanjing Mandarin, what would be the best way to do that? I was thinking:  - Add [ʂ]/[ʃ] & [ʐ] initials - Adding medials to the finals chart (ia, iao, ian, iang, ie, iou, iong, ua, uai, uan, uang, uei, uen, ueng).  - If medials are added, how would that change the rest of the finals chart? Would it make sense to remove some Cantonese finals/vowels. If so, which?  Thank you again!  
> **username_2**: @username_0, well, first of all, do you want to keep entering tone (finals ends with -p, -t, or -k), if not, chop them; the result would be “less-cantonese”. secondly, if you add medials, the table of finals would larger, to keep it reasonable, chop some finals. maybe, you compose the table of finals first, ask again, i’ll adjust it accordingly. btw, how serious do you need? a “sino-language” withstand linguists’ criticise, or, fantasy?  
> **username_0**: [Here](https://wiki.rosestulipsandliberty.com/wiki/Talk:Mandarin#Cantonese-influenced_ONP) is the link to the page with the initials, finals, and some ideas.  Ideally the language should be accurate and believable to your average Chinese speaker, can be written/romanized fairly easily. Any insight from a linguist/language expert like yourself is greatly appreciated! :) @username_2  
> **username_2**: @username_0, i read, and thought about the chart, some points you need to clarify: 1 why “亞” (glottal x stop-plain) 2 the cuhk site has alveolar & post-alveolar, why these two are merged together in the chart? (知，雌，思) 3 羅 is approximant x alveolar; while in cuhk site, it’s lateral x alveolar?  
> **username_0**: 1) put 亞 there just in case I got rid of entering tone, 2) for simplicity, I'll add post when it's complete, 3) that was a mistake, I'll change it.   What do you think of removing the retroflex 書 & 肉 sounds and the entering tone? Maybe merge 書 into [s] completely, remove 肉, & -p, -t, -k all become glottal stops?  For the finals chart - does it make sense & how to improve it? Would it be better to start with the Mandarin final chart instead and modify it from there, since many of these final sounds would be new for Mandarin speakers? @username_2  
> **username_2**: @username_0, “Would it be better to start with the Mandarin final chart”, of course **no** lah  it’s against the supposed partitioned-china setting. if a cantonese-speaking monarchy ruled the southern region between 1857-1930s, one should assume the strong influence of cantonese. that, during the unified period (1930s - today), it might not be the most influential, cantonese would be the second one.  
> **username_2**: @username_0, “since many of these final sounds would be new for Mandarin speakers” well, new for **living** mandarin speakers. cantonese (and some other southern languages) preserved entering tones, which make it more correlated to middle, and/or old chinese. rhyme books of yore are still valid in cantonese, and, un-useable in mandarin. come on, be inventive, throw away the mandarin, in the alternate world   
> **username_0**: You're right!   Here's a Reddit thread I made about the language, what do you think about the answers? [Link](https://www.reddit.com/r/ChineseLanguage/comments/xzh07v/would_love_input_on_making_an_alternate_history/).  
> **username_2**: @username_0, “the two are reunified by the south”, “China does not have Manchuria, Inner Mongolia, Xinjiang, or Tibet in this world” & “The new Chinese Republic is chauvinist”. well, with such settings, here’re my suggestions: 1. **stick to current cantonese initials & finals**, equal to “king’s english”. less-educated, laymen from various regions would speak a mandarin infiltrated cantonese, equal to regional accented english in uk.  
> **username_2**: @username_0, it would be easier to describe the sino-language development, than composing charts of initials and finals to reflect what would be actually spoken. so,  the “china” is unified by the south, cantonese is still the most influential. and, the republic aft unification is chauvinist, that the ministry of education emphasised cantonese is more correlated to the middle, old chinese; that mandarin is **inferior** in reading poems, and rhymed texts. so, to educate all people to become more “han-chinese”, more traditional, cantonese is the official language used.  
> **username_2**: @username_0, meanwhile, mandarin infiltrated cantonese is acceptable, just being subtlety prejudiced by pure cantonese speakers. in short, emphasise the entering tone (入聲) in the supposed sino-language, those who can speak it is in top-strata, those who can’t is in lower one; the more mandarin spoken, the lower strata one is in.  
> **username_2**: @username_0, last, providing this anecdote: students sit exams for composing poems weekly, since early childhood  civil servants who passed similar examination would have additional increment in salary  citizens passed similar examination would have lower tax rate  the rationale of these policies is: to testify poems, one  need a rhyme book, and such rhyme book is derived from 平水韻. that, any southern languages (cantonese, hakka, hokkien, . . . etc) whose has entering tone, their speakers would have advantages in such exams. a subtle ways to promote cantonese by the government   

---

