<p>Have a look <a href="https://www.birdnet.cn/thread-3121900-1-1.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">here</a></p>
<p>This interested me too a while back.</p>
<p>“分析风头鸊鷉的资料感觉，雎鸠是风头鸊鷉的可能性大些。”</p>
<p>关关雎鸠 should be 关关风头鸊鷉???</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-03-08T00:21:01.020Z
Is it 凤头鸊鷉 or 风头鸊鷉?  風頭鸊鷉 sounds like the bird has a lot of publicity. 鳳頭鸊鷉 (Crested Grebe)  makes more sense
Tang Ho
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-03-08T00:55:16.093Z
Sorry, I am not a bird expert. Follow the link for more info.
Pedroski
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-03-08T01:08:50.773Z
It looks like a typo from the original text
Tang Ho
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-03-07T22:49:33.643Z
2021-03-07T22:49:33.643Z
Pedroski
<p>“關雎” is an ancient poem, isn’t it?</p>
<p>I mean, we might treat it as a metaphor fuzzily, to save our life &amp; time </p>
<p>btw, there was a book named “毛詩品物圖攷”, written by a Japanese, in late 18 century; quite interesting:</p>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/DLvr2.jpg" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/DLvr2.jpg" alt="enter image description here" /></a></p>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/YJoqj.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/YJoqj.png" alt="enter image description here" /></a></p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-03-08T16:55:06.103Z
Certainly it is a metaphor.  But LY 17:8 specifies one reason you should study the *Shijing* is to learn the names of birds.
Colin McLarty
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-03-09T00:50:13.213Z
well, mr 莊 did say “吾生也有涯・而知也无涯・以有涯隨无涯・殆已”  life is short 
水巷孑蠻
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-03-08T13:42:04.890Z
2022-07-11T12:10:51.550Z
2022-07-11T12:10:51.550Z
水巷孑蠻
<p>In short, the evidence is conjectural, all clear identifications of the birds are eastern Han or later, and all sources known to say anything specific about what 雎鳩 are, descend from the Shijing.</p>
<p>All the different interpretations cited in the question go back to the explanation of  雎鳩  in the Mao commentary <a href="https://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=en&amp;chapter=560736" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Paragraph 4</a>:</p>
<p>關關，和聲也。雎鳩，王雎也，鳥摯而有別。水中可居者曰洲。</p>
<p>This just seems to say they are water birds monogamous for life.  This could well be exactly correct to the original intent, but even this seems not based on other texts than the song itself.  Rather it seems based the obvious river context of the song, plus the song using these birds as metaphor for a suitable match for a prince.
Some people, not including Zhu Xi for example, think a  王雎 is an eagle.</p>
<p>The  <a href="https://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E9%B8%B3%E9%B8%AF" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Chinese Text Project</a> has a few Warring States and Western Han sources using 雎鳩 with no apparent connection to the Shijing or Analects, but none says anything identifying. I find no really comprehensible references to  雎鳩 from any date that do not derive from the Analects or directly from this first song in the Shijing.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-03-08T08:51:08.713Z
2022-07-11T03:58:12.300Z
2022-07-11T03:58:12.300Z
Colin McLarty
<p>Legge used &quot;Ospreys&quot; to name the first poem in the <em>Shijing</em>.  Karlgren often cites it that way, but his own translation leaves it as &quot;ts'u - kiu  bird.&quot; (Book of Odes, Museum of Far Eastern Antiquities, 1950).  </p>
<p>Apparently  Zheng Qiao (1104--1162) said the birds were Mallard Ducks, which makes sense though I have not seen the source. Zhu Xi agreed with this, see his commentary on the Shijing, paragraph 2 of <a href="https://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&amp;chapter=104064" rel="nofollow noreferrer">this</a>.</p>
<p>According to <a href="https://new.qq.com/omn/20191111/20191111A0G4NZ00.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">this</a>, a somewhat obscure line of the Mao commentary was taken to mean the birds are some kind of hawk (like Ospreys), while Lu Ji 陸機 (261–303) believed the birds were Cormorants, while Guo Pu (郭璞; AD 276–324) believed they were fish hawks (such as Ospreys).</p>

<classical-chinese>
What is the evidence that "Ospreys" are the birds in the first poem in the Shijing?
# What is the evidence that "Ospreys" are the birds in the first poem in the Shijing?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2021-03-07)

Legge used "Ospreys" to name the first poem in the *Shijing*. Karlgren often cites it that way, but his own translation leaves it as "ts'u - kiu  bird." (Book of Odes, Museum of Far Eastern Antiquities, 1950).

Apparently  Zheng Qiao (1104--1162) said the birds were Mallard Ducks, which makes sense though I have not seen the source. Zhu Xi agreed with this, see his commentary on the Shijing, paragraph 2 of [this](https://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&chapter=104064).

According to [this](https://new.qq.com/omn/20191111/20191111A0G4NZ00.html), a somewhat obscure line of the Mao commentary was taken to mean the birds are some kind of hawk (like Ospreys), while Lu Ji 陸機 (261–303) believed the birds were Cormorants, while Guo Pu (郭璞; AD 276–324) believed they were fish hawks (such as Ospreys).

**Tags:** classical-chinese


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## 3 answers

### Answer by username_1 on 2021-03-07. Score: 1

Have a look [here](https://www.birdnet.cn/thread-3121900-1-1.html)

This interested me too a while back.

“分析风头鸊鷉的资料感觉，雎鸠是风头鸊鷉的可能性大些。”

关关雎鸠 should be 关关风头鸊鷉???

> **Comments:**
> **username_2**: Is it 凤头鸊鷉 or 风头鸊鷉?  風頭鸊鷉 sounds like the bird has a lot of publicity. 鳳頭鸊鷉 (Crested Grebe)  makes more sense  
> **username_1**: Sorry, I am not a bird expert. Follow the link for more info.  
> **username_2**: It looks like a typo from the original text  

---

### Answer by username_3 on 2021-03-08. Score: 1

“關雎” is an ancient poem, isn’t it?

I mean, we might treat it as a metaphor fuzzily, to save our life & time

btw, there was a book named “毛詩品物圖攷”, written by a Japanese, in late 18 century; quite interesting:

[![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/DLvr2.jpg)](https://i.sstatic.net/DLvr2.jpg)

[![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/YJoqj.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/YJoqj.png)

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Certainly it is a metaphor.  But LY 17:8 specifies one reason you should study the *Shijing* is to learn the names of birds.  
> **username_3**: well, mr 莊 did say “吾生也有涯・而知也无涯・以有涯隨无涯・殆已”  life is short   

---

### Answer by username_0 on 2021-03-08. Score: 0

In short, the evidence is conjectural, all clear identifications of the birds are eastern Han or later, and all sources known to say anything specific about what 雎鳩 are, descend from the Shijing.

All the different interpretations cited in the question go back to the explanation of 雎鳩 in the Mao commentary [Paragraph 4](https://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=en&chapter=560736):

關關，和聲也。雎鳩，王雎也，鳥摯而有別。水中可居者曰洲。

This just seems to say they are water birds monogamous for life. This could well be exactly correct to the original intent, but even this seems not based on other texts than the song itself. Rather it seems based the obvious river context of the song, plus the song using these birds as metaphor for a suitable match for a prince.
Some people, not including Zhu Xi for example, think a 王雎 is an eagle.

The [Chinese Text Project](https://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E9%B8%B3%E9%B8%AF) has a few Warring States and Western Han sources using 雎鳩 with no apparent connection to the Shijing or Analects, but none says anything identifying. I find no really comprehensible references to 雎鳩 from any date that do not derive from the Analects or directly from this first song in the Shijing.


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