<p>魏 is referring to 北魏。北魏 is the government which 苏轼 was referring to as 北魏 successfully reestablished 中央集权 （外轻内重） and mimicked the 儒法 system employed by 秦。</p>
<p>I do want to note however, any 魏 which fulfills the 外轻而内重 quality can suffice as an example for modern studies of &quot;feudal system&quot; and &quot;county-prefecture system&quot;. This quote is made more famous by the fact that the last 科举 in 1904 asked an identical open-ended question &quot;周唐外重内轻，秦魏外轻内重，各有得论” 。I've copied a portion of that year's winner's response as follows; &quot;魏文帝侵削诸侯、有同幽絷设防、辅监国之官以伺察之、其势固莫能为乱也。然再传而后微弱益甚、司马氏父子遂攘其臂而夺之&quot;。The 魏 referred here is 曹魏。</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-02-21T16:09:56.737Z
So, although the 科舉 obviously alluded to Su Shi (who, you say meant 北魏）the 狀元 nevertheless talked about 曹魏? Correct? Things of this kind are exactly why I asked! I have been translating some exams. Some answers only make sense for 北魏、others only for 曹魏。How do we know Su Shi meant 北魏？
Ludi
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-02-21T18:45:42.173Z
@Ludi Strictly speaking, 曹魏 is too short and never the only power of its time; the majority of 曹魏 is overlapped with the Three Warring Kingdoms. Note that 东吴 was not officially defeated until 晋 which occurred post 曹魏。The 内重 of 曹魏 is more the result of the need of wartime and less about deliberate choice to do so during a more "peaceful era". 北魏 is particularly noted for its deliberate choice to utilize certain 秦 policies which is why it is mentioned along with 秦 here.
summer7
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-02-20T20:35:17.550Z
2024-02-20T20:35:17.550Z
summer7
<blockquote>
<p>如魏，則外輕而內重。 內重之弊，必有奸臣指鹿之患</p>
</blockquote>
<p>it referred to 北魏、東魏、西魏 collectively; briefly</p>
<blockquote>
<p>北魏（386－535）是北朝時期的第一個朝代，由拓跋珪所建立</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p>高歡 . . . 另立孝文帝曾孫元善見為帝，建都鄴城（今河北臨漳），史稱「東魏」</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p>西魏（535－557）. . . 由宇文泰擁立孝文帝孫子元寶炬為帝，與高歡所掌控的東魏對立</p>
</blockquote>
<p>the dismiss of 北魏 is due to a general 高歡 “selected” a royal family member (元善見) to ascend the throne, another general 宇文泰 ”found” another royal family member (元寶炬) as the emperor; that the début of 東魏 &amp; 西魏</p>
<blockquote>
<p>東魏（534－550）. . . 孝靜帝 . . . 被高澄之弟高洋所廢</p>
</blockquote>
<p>the emperor 孝靜帝 of 東魏 was “dethroned” by 高洋 (son of 高歡)</p>
<blockquote>
<p>西魏（535－557）. . . 宇文泰之侄宇文護迫西魏恭帝禪讓</p>
</blockquote>
<p>the emperor 恭帝 of 西魏 was forced to abdicate, let 宇文護 (nephew of 宇文泰 ) to be the emperor</p>
<p><a href="https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-hk/%E5%8C%97%E9%AD%8F" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-hk/北魏</a></p>
<p><a href="https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-hk/%E4%B8%9C%E9%AD%8F" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-hk/东魏</a></p>
<p><a href="https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-hk/%E8%A5%BF%E9%AD%8F" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-hk/西魏</a></p>
<p>clear, 高歡、宇文泰、高洋 &amp; 宇文護 could be viewed as treacherous officials (奸臣)</p>
<blockquote>
<p>古者建國，使內外相制，輕重相權。 如周如唐，則外重而內輕。如秦如魏，則外輕而內重。 內重之弊，必有奸臣指鹿之患。外重之弊，必有大國問鼎之憂。</p>
</blockquote>
<p>your translation is good  well, i would annotate further:</p>
<p>[when] the ancient people (古者) establish a country (建國)</p>
<p>made (使) [the system that] the central administration (內) [and] the regional administrations (外) [were] mutually restrained (相制), slight and important (輕重) [were] mutually measured [相權]</p>
<p>for example (如), [the dynasty of] 周 (1046 bc – 256 bc) and [the dynasty of] 唐 (618 to 907); the fiefdoms were so strong (則外重) and (而) the central governments was weak (內輕)</p>
<p>for example (如), [the dynasty of] 秦 (221 bc - 207 bc) and [the dynasties of] 魏 {北魏（386－535）、東魏（534－550）、西魏（535－557）} ，the local governments were weak (則外輕) and (而) the central government was so weighty (內重)</p>
<p>the disadvantage of a weighty central government (內重之弊), surely, there would be threats caused by treacherous statesman [like 趙高 pointing a deer] (必有奸臣指鹿之患)</p>
<p>the disadvantage of strong fiefdoms (外重之弊)，surely, there would be worrisome that great fiefdom seeking for the throne (必有大國問鼎之憂)</p>
<p>have fun :)</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-02-21T16:11:20.480Z
How do we conclude that Su Shi meant 北魏 (which has also been my assumption)?
Ludi
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-02-21T16:40:16.287Z
My own reason for the assumption was that I have seen (but sadly not yet obtained) a book titled « 二重奏：北魏前期政治制度». So, I made that connection.
Ludi
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-02-22T10:44:06.813Z
@ludi, well, the legend of 指鹿爲馬 implied  the "treacherous statesman" (奸臣) had absolute power in court, without rivals. in 曹魏（220－266）, 司馬懿 had resistences (the clan of mr 曹 & the clan of mr 夏侯), and several regional generals’ uprisings “駐守揚州的地方軍事長官王凌（司馬懿時期）、毌丘儉（司馬師時期）、諸葛誕（司馬昭時期）先後起兵反抗” https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-hk/曹魏
水巷孑蠻
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-02-22T10:48:15.600Z
@ludi, that, i prefer to interpret 魏 as 北魏 and/or 東魏、西魏. cause 高歡、宇文泰 did whatever they want, without any hassles  imo
水巷孑蠻
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-02-21T03:50:36.433Z
2024-02-21T03:50:36.433Z
水巷孑蠻
<h2>Text</h2>
<p>In his <a href="https://zh.wikisource.org/zh-hant/%E4%B8%8A%E7%A5%9E%E5%AE%97%E7%9A%87%E5%B8%9D%E6%9B%B8_(%E8%98%87%E8%BB%BE)" rel="nofollow noreferrer">上神宗皇帝書</a> Su Shi opines on a permanent problem of Chinese governmental philosophy: the power distribution between centre and periphery or intra-capital and extra-capital officials. He comes up with his ideal strategy of having the two mutually constrain. That is crystallised in the following lines:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>古者建國，使內外相制，輕重相權。
如周如唐，則外重而內輕。如秦如魏，則外輕而內重。
內重之弊，必有奸臣指鹿之患。外重之弊，必有大國問鼎之憂。</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I tentatively translate:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>The Ancients, when establishing a country, used inner and outer (officials) to control each other, thus holding the weak and strong in mutual balance!
The Zhou and Tang (dynasties) had strong outer and weak inner officialdom; Qin and Wei had weak outer and strong inner officials.
The blight of a strong inner officialdom is that there are necessarily treacherous officials <a href="https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E6%8C%87%E9%B9%BF%E4%B8%BA%E9%A9%AC/239153" rel="nofollow noreferrer">passing a deer for a horse (like Zhao Gao, who doomed Qin)</a>. The ailment of strong outer officials lies in strong countries <a href="https://baike.baidu.hk/item/%E5%95%8F%E9%BC%8E/84430" rel="nofollow noreferrer">inquiring after the symbols of state power (with a mind to usurp it).</a></p>
</blockquote>
<h2>Problem</h2>
<p>My problem is that 魏 is mentioned just this once and I have no sure way of knowing, whether it is 北魏、曹魏, or any of <a href="https://www.zhihu.com/question/623922282" rel="nofollow noreferrer">about a dozen less prominent 魏。</a></p>
<p>Su Shi‘s dictum became extremely prominent in the context of discussing 封建制 and 郡縣制 （loosely translated as <em>feudal system</em> and <em>county-prefecture system</em> respectively). I tried to look up that literature to assess which 魏 fits the bill. <a href="http://economy.guoxue.com/?p=2649" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Wang Keyao‘s article</a> on these systems of government states that all of the 魏晋南北朝 featured a weak monarchical power (which does not completely imply 內輕）。</p>
<p><strong>So, is there a way to be reasonably sure, which 魏 Su Shi meant?</strong></p>
<p>Or can we at least find out, which 魏 other literati of imperial China understood him to mean?</p>

<meaning-in-context><literary-chinese>
Which 魏 did 蘇軾 mean in 上神宗皇帝書?
# Which 魏 did 蘇軾 mean in 上神宗皇帝書?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2024-02-20)

## Text

In his [上神宗皇帝書](https://zh.wikisource.org/zh-hant/%E4%B8%8A%E7%A5%9E%E5%AE%97%E7%9A%87%E5%B8%9D%E6%9B%B8_(%E8%98%87%E8%BB%BE)) Su Shi opines on a permanent problem of Chinese governmental philosophy: the power distribution between centre and periphery or intra-capital and extra-capital officials. He comes up with his ideal strategy of having the two mutually constrain. That is crystallised in the following lines:

> 古者建國，使內外相制，輕重相權。
> 如周如唐，則外重而內輕。如秦如魏，則外輕而內重。
> 內重之弊，必有奸臣指鹿之患。外重之弊，必有大國問鼎之憂。

I tentatively translate:

> The Ancients, when establishing a country, used inner and outer (officials) to control each other, thus holding the weak and strong in mutual balance!
> The Zhou and Tang (dynasties) had strong outer and weak inner officialdom; Qin and Wei had weak outer and strong inner officials.
> The blight of a strong inner officialdom is that there are necessarily treacherous officials [passing a deer for a horse (like Zhao Gao, who doomed Qin)](https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E6%8C%87%E9%B9%BF%E4%B8%BA%E9%A9%AC/239153). The ailment of strong outer officials lies in strong countries [inquiring after the symbols of state power (with a mind to usurp it).](https://baike.baidu.hk/item/%E5%95%8F%E9%BC%8E/84430)

## Problem

My problem is that 魏 is mentioned just this once and I have no sure way of knowing, whether it is 北魏、曹魏, or any of [about a dozen less prominent 魏。](https://www.zhihu.com/question/623922282)

Su Shi‘s dictum became extremely prominent in the context of discussing 封建制 and 郡縣制 （loosely translated as *feudal system* and *county-prefecture system* respectively). I tried to look up that literature to assess which 魏 fits the bill. [Wang Keyao‘s article](http://economy.guoxue.com/?p=2649) on these systems of government states that all of the 魏晋南北朝 featured a weak monarchical power (which does not completely imply 內輕）。

**So, is there a way to be reasonably sure, which 魏 Su Shi meant?**

Or can we at least find out, which 魏 other literati of imperial China understood him to mean?

**Tags:** meaning-in-context, literary-chinese


---

## 2 answers

### Answer by username_1 on 2024-02-20. Score: 1

魏 is referring to 北魏。北魏 is the government which 苏轼 was referring to as 北魏 successfully reestablished 中央集权 （外轻内重） and mimicked the 儒法 system employed by 秦。

I do want to note however, any 魏 which fulfills the 外轻而内重 quality can suffice as an example for modern studies of "feudal system" and "county-prefecture system". This quote is made more famous by the fact that the last 科举 in 1904 asked an identical open-ended question "周唐外重内轻，秦魏外轻内重，各有得论” 。I've copied a portion of that year's winner's response as follows; "魏文帝侵削诸侯、有同幽絷设防、辅监国之官以伺察之、其势固莫能为乱也。然再传而后微弱益甚、司马氏父子遂攘其臂而夺之"。The 魏 referred here is 曹魏。

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: So, although the 科舉 obviously alluded to Su Shi (who, you say meant 北魏）the 狀元 nevertheless talked about 曹魏? Correct? Things of this kind are exactly why I asked! I have been translating some exams. Some answers only make sense for 北魏、others only for 曹魏。How do we know Su Shi meant 北魏？  
> **username_1**: @username_0 Strictly speaking, 曹魏 is too short and never the only power of its time; the majority of 曹魏 is overlapped with the Three Warring Kingdoms. Note that 东吴 was not officially defeated until 晋 which occurred post 曹魏。The 内重 of 曹魏 is more the result of the need of wartime and less about deliberate choice to do so during a more "peaceful era". 北魏 is particularly noted for its deliberate choice to utilize certain 秦 policies which is why it is mentioned along with 秦 here.  

---

### Answer by username_2 on 2024-02-21. Score: 1

> 如魏，則外輕而內重。 內重之弊，必有奸臣指鹿之患

it referred to 北魏、東魏、西魏 collectively; briefly

> 北魏（386－535）是北朝時期的第一個朝代，由拓跋珪所建立

> 高歡 . . . 另立孝文帝曾孫元善見為帝，建都鄴城（今河北臨漳），史稱「東魏」

> 西魏（535－557）. . . 由宇文泰擁立孝文帝孫子元寶炬為帝，與高歡所掌控的東魏對立

the dismiss of 北魏 is due to a general 高歡 “selected” a royal family member (元善見) to ascend the throne, another general 宇文泰 ”found” another royal family member (元寶炬) as the emperor; that the début of 東魏 & 西魏

> 東魏（534－550）. . . 孝靜帝 . . . 被高澄之弟高洋所廢

the emperor 孝靜帝 of 東魏 was “dethroned” by 高洋 (son of 高歡)

> 西魏（535－557）. . . 宇文泰之侄宇文護迫西魏恭帝禪讓

the emperor 恭帝 of 西魏 was forced to abdicate, let 宇文護 (nephew of 宇文泰 ) to be the emperor

[https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-hk/北魏](https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-hk/%E5%8C%97%E9%AD%8F)

[https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-hk/东魏](https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-hk/%E4%B8%9C%E9%AD%8F)

[https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-hk/西魏](https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-hk/%E8%A5%BF%E9%AD%8F)

clear, 高歡、宇文泰、高洋 & 宇文護 could be viewed as treacherous officials (奸臣)

> 古者建國，使內外相制，輕重相權。 如周如唐，則外重而內輕。如秦如魏，則外輕而內重。 內重之弊，必有奸臣指鹿之患。外重之弊，必有大國問鼎之憂。

your translation is good well, i would annotate further:

[when] the ancient people (古者) establish a country (建國)

made (使) [the system that] the central administration (內) [and] the regional administrations (外) [were] mutually restrained (相制), slight and important (輕重) [were] mutually measured [相權]

for example (如), [the dynasty of] 周 (1046 bc – 256 bc) and [the dynasty of] 唐 (618 to 907); the fiefdoms were so strong (則外重) and (而) the central governments was weak (內輕)

for example (如), [the dynasty of] 秦 (221 bc - 207 bc) and [the dynasties of] 魏 {北魏（386－535）、東魏（534－550）、西魏（535－557）} ，the local governments were weak (則外輕) and (而) the central government was so weighty (內重)

the disadvantage of a weighty central government (內重之弊), surely, there would be threats caused by treacherous statesman [like 趙高 pointing a deer] (必有奸臣指鹿之患)

the disadvantage of strong fiefdoms (外重之弊)，surely, there would be worrisome that great fiefdom seeking for the throne (必有大國問鼎之憂)

have fun :)

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: How do we conclude that Su Shi meant 北魏 (which has also been my assumption)?  
> **username_0**: My own reason for the assumption was that I have seen (but sadly not yet obtained) a book titled « 二重奏：北魏前期政治制度». So, I made that connection.  
> **username_2**: @username_0, well, the legend of 指鹿爲馬 implied  the "treacherous statesman" (奸臣) had absolute power in court, without rivals. in 曹魏（220－266）, 司馬懿 had resistences (the clan of mr 曹 & the clan of mr 夏侯), and several regional generals’ uprisings “駐守揚州的地方軍事長官王凌（司馬懿時期）、毌丘儉（司馬師時期）、諸葛誕（司馬昭時期）先後起兵反抗” https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-hk/曹魏  
> **username_2**: @username_0, that, i prefer to interpret 魏 as 北魏 and/or 東魏、西魏. cause 高歡、宇文泰 did whatever they want, without any hassles  imo  

---

