<p>I don't believe so, no. The idea of writing equations with symbols like that is actually a very recent invention, historically speaking; ways of representing numbers go back to the very beginnings of writing, but the equals sign wasn't invented until the 1500s! So it's not surprising that the elves didn't have such a thing (or at least that Tolkien never mentioned it in the existing sources).</p>

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2023-08-02T15:39:53.730Z
no, I think it's a mistake of Tolkien. He juste dont think about this... Babylonian (-1700 JC) already resolve equation. So your beliefs are incorrect.
Matrix
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2023-08-02T15:45:53.677Z
@Matrix The Babylonians were doing math, but they didn't have an equivalent of +, ×, =, etc. The idea of writing an equation out like "a²+b²=c²" is a very modern thing.
Draconis
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2023-08-03T12:43:30.083Z
I dont talk about square or ², just 1 +1 it's basic
Matrix
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2023-08-03T12:44:08.723Z
@Matrix to elaborate on Draconis' point a little, Newton's Second Law is commonly expressed as F=ma today, but in Newton's time it was written out in words something like "the force is proportional to the product of the mass and the acceleration". Writing things out in words was the norm until very recently. There was no dedicated mathematical notation, people did algebra (or arithmetic or whatever maths they were doing) on expressions written out in words
Tristan
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2023-08-03T12:44:54.367Z
so for 1+1 this would historically have been written "the sum of one and one" or "the sum of two ones" or similar. Having a specific notation for maths was not seen as necessary historically, and likely wouldn't have been by Tolkien
Tristan
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-08-06T02:22:36.490Z
https://taruithornmiruvor.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/part-2-figure-1-tif-copy-2000x1070.jpg the duration of age, if you take historic's Earth like reference, it's very very very long in comparaison, so mathematical symbol must be spawn at this time... BREF... I have my answer thx ;)
Matrix
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-08-22T16:31:57.873Z
Apparently, the Egyptians did have a sort of ideogram for “plus” and for “minus,” which were Gardiner D54  and D55 , respectively. You could tell which was which by telling whether the legs were pointing towards the beginning or the end of the line. But I guess that would have been closer to a scribal abbreviation (like our modern &) than mathematical notation, _per se._
Wtrmute
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2023-08-26T01:18:19.203Z
Age from Tolkien are > to 1500 years needed on our Earth to create this symbol. It's not realistic to think with (at leat) twice as long, there is nobody to abstract mathematics ;)
Matrix
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-08-26T02:10:31.557Z
@Matrix But were the people in Middle Earth doing the sort of mathematics that would make it useful?
Draconis
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2023-08-27T19:14:05.657Z
waw, what level do you have in science to say that? XD
Matrix
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2023-08-27T19:18:31.207Z
@Matrix I'm saying, to the best of my knowledge, we don't know whether anyone in Middle Earth invented algebra. I'm not aware of anything in Tolkien's writings about it.
Draconis
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2023-08-27T22:51:37.560Z
yes but it's not realistic,i think it's a mistake from the author, not intradiegetic
Matrix
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2023-09-21T11:55:39.873Z
@Matrix You can go on to argue that it's a mistake of Tolkien not to have Atom Bombs and jets by the End of Third Age, because the Elves, for example, had tens of thousands of years since their Iron Age.
Eugene
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2023-09-21T12:16:34.617Z
@Matrix Also, how is it Tolkien's mistake not to include any mathematical equations in his books? Do you honestly think that a novel must contain manuscripts with math equations? He never even mentioned any toilet, bacteria, or diarrhea in Middle-earth either. Also a mistake?! Seriously mathematical notations aren't the only thing, nor the usual thing you would come across in any real life text, literary or otherwise. When was the last you saw +-*/? In a Math class? Physics discussion?
Eugene
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-07-31T16:50:06.970Z
2023-07-31T16:50:06.970Z
Draconis
<p>I found many sites where Quenya numerical system was explain, but nothing about mathematical opperation like :</p>
<p><code>+ - / *</code> (I don't speak about advanced notion like x² or square), but there is nothing written by tolkien about basic equation ?!?</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-08-06T02:24:09.193Z
Tolkien never think avout this, and don't create mathematical symbol, he as philologist, not mathematician.
Matrix
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2023-09-21T12:29:25.640Z
Tolkien never even had to invent the Tengwar numerals (not Quenya, which is a language, not a writing system). Hell, Tolkien never had to invent the Elvish languages and scripts for Middle-earth (he had to for his own pleasure though). I agree with Draconis that symbols for +-*/= likely didn't exist in the Third Age, and I don't think Tolkien needed to include them in the books even if he had them in mind.
Eugene
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-09-21T12:32:30.390Z
Also know that we know of the Tengwar numerals because Christopher Tolkien found some notes and published them years after Tolkien's death. It's not like Tolkien wrote a book telling the readers: see the Elvish had numeric symbols but no +-*/=. George R.R. Martin never even designed an alphabet for Westeros. Is that also a mistake of him?
Eugene
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-09-22T23:34:24.030Z
@Eugene GRR is not a linguist, its a mistake of curse, but it's not his job to create languages^^
It's not a question of pleasure (if you are linguist of sunday maybe), but profesional linguist must think about reel evolution of langages ;) It's impossible with so much time, there is no mathematical symbol. But it's not my question, or a debate, I just would be sure there is nothing about this in all work of Tolkien. Question closed. you can interpret that however you want now...
Matrix
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-09-23T10:29:52.863Z
It wasn't Tolkien's job either when he was writing a novel as a novelist. Let's put aside whether it's plausible that they didn't invent such symbols in Ages. You are mistaken! Tolkien never said there weren't such symbols. What if Christopher Tolkien never found his father's notes on Tengwar numbers or never made them public? I guess you would then claim it was a mistake of Tolkien not to have invented any numbers? If so, I assure you there are a lot more than numbers that are lacking in Tolkien's languages. We don't even have a complete pronoun table of Sindarin.
Eugene
<tolkien-elvish><number>
Mathematical Quenya Symbol?
# Mathematical Quenya Symbol?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2023-07-31)

I found many sites where Quenya numerical system was explain, but nothing about mathematical opperation like :

`+ - / *` (I don't speak about advanced notion like x² or square), but there is nothing written by tolkien about basic equation ?!?

**Tags:** tolkien-elvish, number

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Tolkien never think avout this, and don't create mathematical symbol, he as philologist, not mathematician.  
> **username_1**: Tolkien never even had to invent the Tengwar numerals (not Quenya, which is a language, not a writing system). Hell, Tolkien never had to invent the Elvish languages and scripts for Middle-earth (he had to for his own pleasure though). I agree with username_2 that symbols for +-*/= likely didn't exist in the Third Age, and I don't think Tolkien needed to include them in the books even if he had them in mind.  
> **username_1**: Also know that we know of the Tengwar numerals because Christopher Tolkien found some notes and published them years after Tolkien's death. It's not like Tolkien wrote a book telling the readers: see the Elvish had numeric symbols but no +-*/=. George R.R. Martin never even designed an alphabet for Westeros. Is that also a mistake of him?  
> **username_0**: @username_1 GRR is not a linguist, its a mistake of curse, but it's not his job to create languages^^ It's not a question of pleasure (if you are linguist of sunday maybe), but profesional linguist must think about reel evolution of langages ;) It's impossible with so much time, there is no mathematical symbol. But it's not my question, or a debate, I just would be sure there is nothing about this in all work of Tolkien. Question closed. you can interpret that however you want now...  
> **username_1**: It wasn't Tolkien's job either when he was writing a novel as a novelist. Let's put aside whether it's plausible that they didn't invent such symbols in Ages. You are mistaken! Tolkien never said there weren't such symbols. What if Christopher Tolkien never found his father's notes on Tengwar numbers or never made them public? I guess you would then claim it was a mistake of Tolkien not to have invented any numbers? If so, I assure you there are a lot more than numbers that are lacking in Tolkien's languages. We don't even have a complete pronoun table of Sindarin.  

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## 1 answers

### Answer by username_2 on 2023-07-31. Score: 4

I don't believe so, no. The idea of writing equations with symbols like that is actually a very recent invention, historically speaking; ways of representing numbers go back to the very beginnings of writing, but the equals sign wasn't invented until the 1500s! So it's not surprising that the elves didn't have such a thing (or at least that Tolkien never mentioned it in the existing sources).

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: no, I think it's a mistake of Tolkien. He juste dont think about this... Babylonian (-1700 JC) already resolve equation. So your beliefs are incorrect.  
> **username_2**: @username_0 The Babylonians were doing math, but they didn't have an equivalent of +, ×, =, etc. The idea of writing an equation out like "a²+b²=c²" is a very modern thing.  
> **username_0**: I dont talk about square or ², just 1 +1 it's basic  
> **username_3**: @username_0 to elaborate on username_2' point a little, Newton's Second Law is commonly expressed as F=ma today, but in Newton's time it was written out in words something like "the force is proportional to the product of the mass and the acceleration". Writing things out in words was the norm until very recently. There was no dedicated mathematical notation, people did algebra (or arithmetic or whatever maths they were doing) on expressions written out in words  
> **username_3**: so for 1+1 this would historically have been written "the sum of one and one" or "the sum of two ones" or similar. Having a specific notation for maths was not seen as necessary historically, and likely wouldn't have been by Tolkien  
> **username_0**: https://taruithornmiruvor.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/part-2-figure-1-tif-copy-2000x1070.jpg the duration of age, if you take historic's Earth like reference, it's very very very long in comparaison, so mathematical symbol must be spawn at this time... BREF... I have my answer thx ;)  
> **username_4**: Apparently, the Egyptians did have a sort of ideogram for “plus” and for “minus,” which were Gardiner D54  and D55 , respectively. You could tell which was which by telling whether the legs were pointing towards the beginning or the end of the line. But I guess that would have been closer to a scribal abbreviation (like our modern &) than mathematical notation, _per se._  
> **username_0**: Age from Tolkien are > to 1500 years needed on our Earth to create this symbol. It's not realistic to think with (at leat) twice as long, there is nobody to abstract mathematics ;)  
> **username_2**: @username_0 But were the people in Middle Earth doing the sort of mathematics that would make it useful?  
> **username_0**: waw, what level do you have in science to say that? XD  
> **username_2**: @username_0 I'm saying, to the best of my knowledge, we don't know whether anyone in Middle Earth invented algebra. I'm not aware of anything in Tolkien's writings about it.  
> **username_0**: yes but it's not realistic,i think it's a mistake from the author, not intradiegetic  
> **username_1**: @username_0 You can go on to argue that it's a mistake of Tolkien not to have Atom Bombs and jets by the End of Third Age, because the Elves, for example, had tens of thousands of years since their Iron Age.  
> **username_1**: @username_0 Also, how is it Tolkien's mistake not to include any mathematical equations in his books? Do you honestly think that a novel must contain manuscripts with math equations? He never even mentioned any toilet, bacteria, or diarrhea in Middle-earth either. Also a mistake?! Seriously mathematical notations aren't the only thing, nor the usual thing you would come across in any real life text, literary or otherwise. When was the last you saw +-*/? In a Math class? Physics discussion?  

---

