<p>After changes as suggested by @user7660047 and inversion.</p>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/XJTb8.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/XJTb8.png" alt="enter image description here" /></a></p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-02-05T08:39:49.627Z
Looks a lot better now. The pure greys (R = G = B) have a tendency to not fit in with the other colors, but at least they don't seem completely misplaced.
Elmy
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-08-18T21:58:37.597Z
"After changes suggested by @user7660047" - that is you, right? Can you please edit in what you're referring to, and how the image reflects the changes, and how it answers the question?
Joachim
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-02-05T01:08:33.217Z
2021-02-05T01:08:33.217Z
user7660047
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/K8ikg.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/K8ikg.png" alt="enter image description here" /></a></p>
<p>This is a link to get the PDF
<a href="https://paste.c-net.org/LoweringWorkup" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://paste.c-net.org/LoweringWorkup</a></p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-08-18T17:41:19.780Z
Could this not be edited into your previous post?
agarza
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-08-18T21:59:58.217Z
I agree: how does this differ from your other answer, and why? Is this your own image, or did you find it online? Can you add in information of how this answers your question, and what we perhaps can infer from it?
Joachim
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-08-20T03:20:44.167Z
I agree with the other comments.  But what I take away from this is that they're saying that white, black, greys, and some other colors don't fit the scheme for inclusion in the color wheel (listed on the page border).
fixer1234
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-08-18T17:34:34.670Z
2021-08-18T17:34:34.670Z
user7660047
<p>You have 3 different variables: Hue, Value (aka Lightnes or Brighness) and Saturation (aka Chroma).</p>
<p>You have limited your graphical representation to 2 of those variables and get some unintuitive results. If you want to make the result seem more natural / intuitive, you need to represent all 3 variables in 3 dimensions.</p>
<p>Two examples of 3-dimensional color representations can be found in the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSL_and_HSV" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Wikipedia page &quot;HSL and HSV&quot;</a>:</p>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/O1h30.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/O1h30.png" alt="enter image description here" /></a><br />
Representation of HSL (Hue, Saturation / Chroma, Lightness)</p>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/UflGy.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/UflGy.png" alt="enter image description here" /></a><br />
Representation of HSL (Hue, Saturation / Chroma, Value)</p>
<p>That would put darker greys at the bottom of the figure and lighter greys at the top. Some of your very light greys (like 271) seem to be misplaced to me because they have a lower saturation <em>and</em> brighness than their position in your graphic indicates. I'm not sure how that happened, maybe you need to adapt the algorithm that placed them there.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-02-04T00:04:03.360Z
Thank you, that's embarrassing, I don't know how I did not manage to google it. The Wikipedia page has the exact examples with all the math.
user7660047
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-02-04T06:48:36.167Z
@user7660047 Don't worry. If I hadn't learned about different color spaces in analog and digital video transmission in my everyday job, I wouldn't have been able to goole it either. And I think that's what this site is for: not doing your homework for you, but at least pointing you in the right direction if you don't know where to start.
Elmy
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-02-04T06:56:57.680Z
@user7660047 I think you could squeeze your values into a 2-dimensional color wheel if you calculate the radius from the sum of R+G+B. That pulls very dark greys into the center and pushes very light greys to the edge, while keeping medium colors in the middle. I don't know how you calculated the radius in your current plot, but even 102, 103 and 132 seem to be misplaced.
Elmy
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-02-05T01:07:36.880Z
Thanks got much more intuitive result with that and inversion.
user7660047
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-02-03T08:09:14.367Z
2021-02-03T08:09:14.367Z
Elmy
<p>Question of art and science. I've sampled, scanned all Polychromos pencils (and yes others have pointed the folly of such attempt in terms of color veracity, I still found it and interesting experiment).</p>
<p>Result is below. Mathematically it's correct for hue and saturation. Value element isn't included which results in some interesting artefacts in placement of cold/warm greys. Any thoughts where/how you'd place them?</p>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/iipMq.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/iipMq.png" alt="enter image description here" /></a></p>
<pre><code>101 White (RGB): #f5f7fb
102 Creat (RGB): #f2f3b9
103 Ivort (RGB): #f2f4e6
104 Light Yellow Glaze (RGB): #feff5b
105 Light Cadmium Yellow (RGB): #fefd5c
106 Light Chrome Yellow (RGB): #fdf861
107 Cadmium Yellow (RGB): #fef638
108 Dark Cadmium Yellow (RGB): #f2b821
109 Dark Chrome Yellow (RGB): #e9a041
110 Phthalo Blue (RGB): #128de4
111 Cadmium Orange (RGB): #e7884c
112 Leaf Green (RGB): #17c743
113 Orange Glaze (RGB): #ea5749
115 Dark Cadmium Orange (RGB): #ea584a
117 Light Cadmium red (RGB): #eb4e57
118 Scarlet Red (RGB): #e03d5b
119 Light Magenta (RGB): #df9ce4
120 Ultramarine (RGB): #5d81ee
121 Pale Geranium Lake (RGB): #e4335a
123 Fuchsia (RGB): #db439f
124 Rose Carmine (RGB): #e25c8a
125 Middle Purple Pink (RGB): #d13da6
126 Permanent Carmine (RGB): #d42758
127 Pink Carmine (RGB): #dd4584
128 Light Purple Pink (RGB): #e05bb1
129 Pink Madder Lake (RGB): #e37ec2
130 Dark Flesh (RGB): #e684a5
131 Medium Flesh (RGB): #dd7b89
132 Light Flesh (RGB): #e5bbb2
133 Magenta (RGB): #aa4069
134 Crimson (RGB): #b85bba
135 Light Red-Violet (RGB): #a358a9
136 Purple Violet (RGB): #7f4cc6
137 Blue Violet (RGB): #6345c5
138 Violet (RGB): #9f6dd8
140 Light Ultramarine (RGB): #86adf8
141 Delft Blue (RGB): #4835aa
142 Madder (RGB): #ce4f77
143 Cobalt Blue (RGB): #0a7dd5
144 Cobalt Blue-Greenish (RGB): #0b70cb
145 Light Phthalo Blue (RGB): #68bcf8
146 Smalt Blue (RGB): #87b1f8
149 Bluish Turquoise (RGB): #077dc0
151 Helioblue-Reddish (RGB): #2579d4
152 Middle Phthalo Blue (RGB): #0a91e7
153 Cobalt Turquoise (RGB): #078eb0
154 Light Cobalt Turquoise (RGB): #69d1e9
155 Helio Turquoise (RGB): #0d7f92
156 Cobalt Green (RGB): #23bdc9
157 Dark Indigo (RGB): #3c4b65
158 Deep Cobalt Green (RGB): #177f71
159 Hooker's Green (RGB): #2c9d68
160 Manganese Violet (RGB): #9954b8
161 Phthalo Green (RGB): #01ae8b
162 Light Phthalo Green (RGB): #1ad396
163 Emerald Green (RGB): #0cc98b
165 Juniper Green (RGB): #43865f
166 Grass Green (RGB): #6ad94e
167 Permanent Green Olive (RGB): #67983b
168 Earth Green Yellowish (RGB): #a6c565
169 Caput Mortuum (RGB): #8c5156
170 May Green (RGB): #bedb62
171 Light Green (RGB): #9fe56a
172 Earth Green (RGB): #879f85
173 Olive Green Yellowish (RGB): #71724a
174 Chrome Green Opaque (RGB): #738454
175 Sepia (RGB): #5d5556
176 Van Dyck Brown (RGB): #765e5b
177 Walnut Brown (RGB): #655051
178 Nougat (RGB): #947362
179 Bistre (RGB): #8f6745
180 Raw Umber (RGB): #a1713f
181 Payne's Gray (RGB): #5f6168
182 Brown Ochre (RGB): #af7a42
183 Light Yellow Ochre (RGB): #e0b536
184 Dark Naples Ochre (RGB): #f9e065
185 Naples Yellow (RGB): #fdee5e
186 Terracotta (RGB): #d69f6a
187 Burnt Ochre (RGB): #c6864f
188 Sanguine (RGB): #c55948
189 Cinnamon (RGB): #d59992
190 Venetian Red (RGB): #cb6361
191 Pompeian Red (RGB): #d35e70
192 Indian Red (RGB): #a54851
193 Burnt Carmine (RGB): #a24e6b
194 Red-Violet (RGB): #904a6a
199 Black (RGB): #4d4c51
205 Cadmium Yellow Lemon (RGB): #f6fe4c
217 Middle Cadmium Red (RGB): #c14149
219 Deep Scarlet Red (RGB): #d92c56
223 Deep Red (RGB): #de4f64
225 Dark Red (RGB): #b03d4c
226 Alizarin Crimson (RGB): #d42e64
230 Cold Gray I (RGB): #d4dbe5
231 Cold Gray II (RGB): #c8cfd8
232 Cold Gray III (RGB): #a0a8b2
233 Cold Gray IV (RGB): #97989d
234 Cold Gray U (RGB): #8d8f95
235 Cold Gray VI (RGB): #5d5e62
246 Prussian Blue (RGB): #216da6
247 Indanthrene Blue (RGB): #354491
249 Mauve (RGB): #6f49c2
250 Gold (RGB): #aba99f
251 Silver (RGB): #b4bbc9
252 Copper (RGB): #9e968f
263 Caput Mortuum Violet (RGB): #83515a
264 Dark Phthalo Green (RGB): #06a474
266 Permanent Green (RGB): #0b9a3c
267 Pine Green (RGB): #286d40
268 Green Gold (RGB): #c7a539
270 Warm Gray I (RGB): #d3d4d6
271 Warm Gray II (RGB): #c7c7c7
272 Warm Gray III (RGB): #a9a8a8
273 Warm Gray IV (RGB): #7d7b7c
274 Warm Gray V (RGB): #5c5a5d
275 Warm Gray VI (RGB): #444346
276 Chrome Oxide Green Fiery (RGB): #01a07c
278 Chrome Oxide Green (RGB): #395d43
280 Burnt Umber (RGB): #75554a
283 Burnt Sienna (RGB): #8d6356
</code></pre>

<colored-pencils>
Where to place grays on Polychromos color wheel?
user7660047
# Where to place grays on Polychromos color wheel?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2021-02-03)

Question of art and science. I've sampled, scanned all Polychromos pencils (and yes others have pointed the folly of such attempt in terms of color veracity, I still found it and interesting experiment).

Result is below. Mathematically it's correct for hue and saturation. Value element isn't included which results in some interesting artefacts in placement of cold/warm greys. Any thoughts where/how you'd place them?

[![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/iipMq.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/iipMq.png)

```
101 White (RGB): #f5f7fb
102 Creat (RGB): #f2f3b9
103 Ivort (RGB): #f2f4e6
104 Light Yellow Glaze (RGB): #feff5b
105 Light Cadmium Yellow (RGB): #fefd5c
106 Light Chrome Yellow (RGB): #fdf861
107 Cadmium Yellow (RGB): #fef638
108 Dark Cadmium Yellow (RGB): #f2b821
109 Dark Chrome Yellow (RGB): #e9a041
110 Phthalo Blue (RGB): #128de4
111 Cadmium Orange (RGB): #e7884c
112 Leaf Green (RGB): #17c743
113 Orange Glaze (RGB): #ea5749
115 Dark Cadmium Orange (RGB): #ea584a
117 Light Cadmium red (RGB): #eb4e57
118 Scarlet Red (RGB): #e03d5b
119 Light Magenta (RGB): #df9ce4
120 Ultramarine (RGB): #5d81ee
121 Pale Geranium Lake (RGB): #e4335a
123 Fuchsia (RGB): #db439f
124 Rose Carmine (RGB): #e25c8a
125 Middle Purple Pink (RGB): #d13da6
126 Permanent Carmine (RGB): #d42758
127 Pink Carmine (RGB): #dd4584
128 Light Purple Pink (RGB): #e05bb1
129 Pink Madder Lake (RGB): #e37ec2
130 Dark Flesh (RGB): #e684a5
131 Medium Flesh (RGB): #dd7b89
132 Light Flesh (RGB): #e5bbb2
133 Magenta (RGB): #aa4069
134 Crimson (RGB): #b85bba
135 Light Red-Violet (RGB): #a358a9
136 Purple Violet (RGB): #7f4cc6
137 Blue Violet (RGB): #6345c5
138 Violet (RGB): #9f6dd8
140 Light Ultramarine (RGB): #86adf8
141 Delft Blue (RGB): #4835aa
142 Madder (RGB): #ce4f77
143 Cobalt Blue (RGB): #0a7dd5
144 Cobalt Blue-Greenish (RGB): #0b70cb
145 Light Phthalo Blue (RGB): #68bcf8
146 Smalt Blue (RGB): #87b1f8
149 Bluish Turquoise (RGB): #077dc0
151 Helioblue-Reddish (RGB): #2579d4
152 Middle Phthalo Blue (RGB): #0a91e7
153 Cobalt Turquoise (RGB): #078eb0
154 Light Cobalt Turquoise (RGB): #69d1e9
155 Helio Turquoise (RGB): #0d7f92
156 Cobalt Green (RGB): #23bdc9
157 Dark Indigo (RGB): #3c4b65
158 Deep Cobalt Green (RGB): #177f71
159 Hooker's Green (RGB): #2c9d68
160 Manganese Violet (RGB): #9954b8
161 Phthalo Green (RGB): #01ae8b
162 Light Phthalo Green (RGB): #1ad396
163 Emerald Green (RGB): #0cc98b
165 Juniper Green (RGB): #43865f
166 Grass Green (RGB): #6ad94e
167 Permanent Green Olive (RGB): #67983b
168 Earth Green Yellowish (RGB): #a6c565
169 Caput Mortuum (RGB): #8c5156
170 May Green (RGB): #bedb62
171 Light Green (RGB): #9fe56a
172 Earth Green (RGB): #879f85
173 Olive Green Yellowish (RGB): #71724a
174 Chrome Green Opaque (RGB): #738454
175 Sepia (RGB): #5d5556
176 Van Dyck Brown (RGB): #765e5b
177 Walnut Brown (RGB): #655051
178 Nougat (RGB): #947362
179 Bistre (RGB): #8f6745
180 Raw Umber (RGB): #a1713f
181 Payne's Gray (RGB): #5f6168
182 Brown Ochre (RGB): #af7a42
183 Light Yellow Ochre (RGB): #e0b536
184 Dark Naples Ochre (RGB): #f9e065
185 Naples Yellow (RGB): #fdee5e
186 Terracotta (RGB): #d69f6a
187 Burnt Ochre (RGB): #c6864f
188 Sanguine (RGB): #c55948
189 Cinnamon (RGB): #d59992
190 Venetian Red (RGB): #cb6361
191 Pompeian Red (RGB): #d35e70
192 Indian Red (RGB): #a54851
193 Burnt Carmine (RGB): #a24e6b
194 Red-Violet (RGB): #904a6a
199 Black (RGB): #4d4c51
205 Cadmium Yellow Lemon (RGB): #f6fe4c
217 Middle Cadmium Red (RGB): #c14149
219 Deep Scarlet Red (RGB): #d92c56
223 Deep Red (RGB): #de4f64
225 Dark Red (RGB): #b03d4c
226 Alizarin Crimson (RGB): #d42e64
230 Cold Gray I (RGB): #d4dbe5
231 Cold Gray II (RGB): #c8cfd8
232 Cold Gray III (RGB): #a0a8b2
233 Cold Gray IV (RGB): #97989d
234 Cold Gray U (RGB): #8d8f95
235 Cold Gray VI (RGB): #5d5e62
246 Prussian Blue (RGB): #216da6
247 Indanthrene Blue (RGB): #354491
249 Mauve (RGB): #6f49c2
250 Gold (RGB): #aba99f
251 Silver (RGB): #b4bbc9
252 Copper (RGB): #9e968f
263 Caput Mortuum Violet (RGB): #83515a
264 Dark Phthalo Green (RGB): #06a474
266 Permanent Green (RGB): #0b9a3c
267 Pine Green (RGB): #286d40
268 Green Gold (RGB): #c7a539
270 Warm Gray I (RGB): #d3d4d6
271 Warm Gray II (RGB): #c7c7c7
272 Warm Gray III (RGB): #a9a8a8
273 Warm Gray IV (RGB): #7d7b7c
274 Warm Gray V (RGB): #5c5a5d
275 Warm Gray VI (RGB): #444346
276 Chrome Oxide Green Fiery (RGB): #01a07c
278 Chrome Oxide Green (RGB): #395d43
280 Burnt Umber (RGB): #75554a
283 Burnt Sienna (RGB): #8d6356

```

**Tags:** colored-pencils


---

## 3 answers

### Answer by username_1 on 2021-02-03. Score: 4 | Accepted answer

You have 3 different variables: Hue, Value (aka Lightnes or Brighness) and Saturation (aka Chroma).

You have limited your graphical representation to 2 of those variables and get some unintuitive results. If you want to make the result seem more natural / intuitive, you need to represent all 3 variables in 3 dimensions.

Two examples of 3-dimensional color representations can be found in the [Wikipedia page "HSL and HSV"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSL_and_HSV):

[![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/O1h30.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/O1h30.png)  
Representation of HSL (Hue, Saturation / Chroma, Lightness)

[![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/UflGy.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/UflGy.png)  
Representation of HSL (Hue, Saturation / Chroma, Value)

That would put darker greys at the bottom of the figure and lighter greys at the top. Some of your very light greys (like 271) seem to be misplaced to me because they have a lower saturation *and* brighness than their position in your graphic indicates. I'm not sure how that happened, maybe you need to adapt the algorithm that placed them there.

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Thank you, that's embarrassing, I don't know how I did not manage to google it. The Wikipedia page has the exact examples with all the math.  
> **username_1**: @username_0 Don't worry. If I hadn't learned about different color spaces in analog and digital video transmission in my everyday job, I wouldn't have been able to goole it either. And I think that's what this site is for: not doing your homework for you, but at least pointing you in the right direction if you don't know where to start.  
> **username_1**: @username_0 I think you could squeeze your values into a 2-dimensional color wheel if you calculate the radius from the sum of R+G+B. That pulls very dark greys into the center and pushes very light greys to the edge, while keeping medium colors in the middle. I don't know how you calculated the radius in your current plot, but even 102, 103 and 132 seem to be misplaced.  
> **username_0**: Thanks got much more intuitive result with that and inversion.  

---

### Answer by username_0 on 2021-02-05. Score: 0

After changes as suggested by @username_0 and inversion.

[![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/XJTb8.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/XJTb8.png)

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: Looks a lot better now. The pure greys (R = G = B) have a tendency to not fit in with the other colors, but at least they don't seem completely misplaced.  
> **username_2**: "After changes suggested by @username_0" - that is you, right? Can you please edit in what you're referring to, and how the image reflects the changes, and how it answers the question?  

---

### Answer by username_0 on 2021-08-18. Score: 0

[![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/K8ikg.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/K8ikg.png)

This is a link to get the PDF
<https://paste.c-net.org/LoweringWorkup>

> **Comments:**
> **username_3**: Could this not be edited into your previous post?  
> **username_2**: I agree: how does this differ from your other answer, and why? Is this your own image, or did you find it online? Can you add in information of how this answers your question, and what we perhaps can infer from it?  
> **username_4**: I agree with the other comments.  But what I take away from this is that they're saying that white, black, greys, and some other colors don't fit the scheme for inclusion in the color wheel (listed on the page border).  

---

