<p>I think the answer to "Why don't scientists use fire entry suits to study volcanoes?" is that this is a question of professional ethics rather than of technology. For some institution to support, condone, or fund such a proposal, it would first have to conduct some sort of a safety review.  At a significant cost, this approach would encourage risky behavior, put personnel into greater danger, and for small gains that could be obtained by safer alternatives. I expect most university, research or governmental agencies would decide this would be unethical to support because it may encourage greater risk-taking and injury to their technicians. </p>

<p>Although firefighters may use such protective suits, their objective is to save the lives of others. Although manned space flight is also a highly risky project, the payoff is potentially much higher and there may be no practical alternatives. There are safer ways to obtain a sample of fresh lava - a long pole or a robot. </p>

<p>It's very sad that there have been some fatal accidents of persons observing volcanos. To my knowledge however, the sort of 'protective' wear you suggest would not have saved lives in these cases, the circumstances were devastatingly powerful, explosive, and catastrophic and not the sort of risk technicians experience in industry. Examples of 'acceptable-risk' in this would be something comparable to what a worker in a steel foundry or glass-blowing shop might experience. Do these workers use such suits? Volcanologists should at least take the same level of precaution as comparable industrial workers.</p>

<p>So my answer is that the question is not entirely technical, once lives are involved there are ethical questions as well.       </p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-01-03T03:11:44.270Z
2015-01-03T17:49:59.750Z
2015-01-03T17:49:59.750Z
Mark Rovetta
<p>Main danger to life near a volcano is not heat from the lava but volcanic gases.  Volcanic gases are typically very acidic, poisonous gases and can displace breathable air near lava flows.</p>

<p><a href="http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/hazards/gas/" rel="nofollow">http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/hazards/gas/</a>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_gas" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_gas</a></p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-01-04T07:24:21.090Z
Given that fire entry suits almost always have built-in air supply (SCBA), this isn't really the answer that I am looking for.
football-fsj
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-01-03T20:34:38.563Z
2015-01-03T20:34:38.563Z
Earth Science Expatriate
<p>I'm a volcanologist and I have worked on erupting volcanoes. First of all, volcanologists almost never actually wear those suits. Heat is almost never the hazard that matters in the situations in which we work. The hazards are usually the chance of being hit by ballistics, or getting gassed. The reason you see those suits so often is that they look really cool on TV.</p>

<p>I do know that Katia and Maurice Krafft wore them commonly, but their goal was to get as close to explosive eruptions as possible, as frequently as possible, for as long as possible. This strategy leads to death. It was a tragedy when the Kraffts (and 41 others) were killed at Unzen, but not entirely a surprising one, in retrospect. Modern volcanologists tend to be far more cautious and you might say that the heroic age of volcanology is over.</p>

<p>When you're working on an erupting volcano, some major things you can do to reduce risk are:</p>

<ol>
<li>Wear a helmet. This would have saved lives at Galeras.</li>
<li>Reduce the amount of time you spend in the hazard zone. This means you need to work quickly, which often means carry less and don't wear silly protective gear like heat suits.</li>
<li>Wear a gas mask, usually with SO<sub>2</sub> scrubber cartridge. Ever try to jog up a hill in one of these? It becomes hard to breathe, and the mask quickly fills up with condensation from your breath. Communication through a radio or otherwise is hindered. Everything takes longer, so sometimes the masks are left off in the interest of #2.</li>
<li>Increase your situational awareness. Maintain communications with someone who is watching data from instruments such as seismometers and tiltmeters. Also, make sure you have unobstructed vision so that you can potentially step out of the way of lava bombs which are falling towards you. Again, PPE such as a heat suit or even a gas mask can work against this.</li>
</ol>

<p>As for the idea of "picking up" lava with your hands, remember that lava is extremely viscous, so it takes quite a lot of force to pull a sample out of a flow. The colder lavas to which you refer are even more viscous than hotter lavas. Anyway, I doubt there are any gloves that can deal with prolonged contact with a 650C fluid. (Remember that fluids and solids are far more conductive than a gas and will transfer far more heat.) I think trying to sample lava with hands would be far more "awkward" than using a pole, which is really quite a simple, easy way to do it.</p>

<p>Edit: I just thought of another reason volcanologists can't dress like firefighters. Expense. Volcanologists have an extremely hard time getting sufficient funding. I actually asked for an SCBA for my work in the fumarolic ice caves of Mt Erebus, where CO<sub>2</sub> is high. We couldn't afford it on our grant. Instead, I just carefully monitor gas levels and there are caves which I cannot enter because we read dangerous levels of gas at the entrances.</p>

<p>Edit: I highly recommend that anyone interested in this subject read No Apparent Danger and Volcano Cowboys.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-01-30T00:50:13.897Z
@Jean-Marie Prival woah, thanks for the edit. What a weird mistake I made! I had other Kraffts on the brain...
foobarbecue
CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-01-30T09:16:51.007Z
You're welcome! While I'm here, I have to say I disagree with the " not entirely surprising tragedy" part. PDCs were not well understood at the time (they still aren't fully understood today). They had witnessed several PDCs from the same viewpoint previously: all of them were kept channelized in the valley. They had no way to guess that one could eventually overflow. They were bold but not suicidal, if they had thought it could be deadly to be there they wouldn't have done it. Great answer otherwise!
Jean-Marie Prival
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-07-07T13:01:56.970Z
Why do you need to constantly monitor co2?
Harrychink
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-03-06T04:42:46.217Z
For scientific purposes, I've spent time at Erebus, Sakurajima, Villarrica, Yellowstone, and most of the major volcanoes in Ecuador. I've seen some lava in HI too and climbed Mt Rainier, but those were "off-duty"!
foobarbecue
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-03-06T04:47:42.523Z
I'm not sure about the "solid is far more conductive than gas" part
Gimelist
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-03-06T04:52:07.407Z
Far more conductive to heat. Air is a good insulator. A better way to say this might be that conduction is a more efficient heat transfer mechanism than convection. I dunno what sort of gloves the OP had in mind, though, so I'm not even sure if this is relevant.
foobarbecue
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-03-23T02:45:36.763Z
@foobarbecue I meant these [gloves](http://www.newtex.com/nxp/gloves-mitts/zetexplus-200-series) They claim to have an "operating temp" of 815 degrees celsius and a maximum temp of over 1,000 degrees celsius. Would it be possible to pick up the colder erupting lava in those?
football-fsj
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-03-23T03:56:10.360Z
Hm... I dunno! They sure are rated to high temps; I guess maybe you could use those to stick your hand in a flow and scoop some out, but I'm not volunteering! You could ask the manufacturer if they're rated for immersion in liquid... or just straight up ask them if you can use them to scoop lava. Let me know if you get a response!
foobarbecue
CC BY-SA 4.0
2015-03-06T03:02:05.307Z
2020-01-29T14:24:55.823Z
2020-01-29T14:24:55.823Z
foobarbecue
<p>It seems like the only personal protective equipment
(PPE) that volcanologists use are aluminized suits that don't provide any protection from direct contact with lava, making an unexpected splash lethal. There are suits that firefighters use to go directly into fires for prolonged periods of time, and they are able to resist temperatures exceeding 1100 °C (~2000 °F) for up to 15 minutes at a time. Most lava is around this temperature threshold, with the coolest lava erupting at a mere 650 °C (~1200 °F).</p>

<p>Why don't volcanologists use these suits to study volcanoes? Instead of using those awkward long metal rods to pick out the right piece of lava to study, couldn't they use their gloved hands to pick it up (perhaps on the colder erupting lavas like the ones that does so at 650 °C)?</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-12-31T17:08:13.820Z
Are you talking about [something like this](http://youtu.be/egEGaBXG3Kg)?
Gimelist
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-12-31T18:15:08.587Z
Yes, I'm referring to a situation like that one. The suit that the scientist uses in the video is similar to this one: [link](http://www.lakeland.com/our-products/heat-protective-clothing/500-series-approach-suits.html). He is using a fire-approach suit that has can resist high radiant heat, but only 93 deg. C for direct contact, meaning that any lava that splashed directly on him would burn right through his suit in seconds. The other scientist in the video even mentions that the suit will offer no protection, so what he is doing is very dangerous.
football-fsj
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-12-31T18:22:19.850Z
My question is why scientists don't use suits which can resist direct contact with lava-like temperatures for an extended duration. Meaning, according to the manufacturers specifications, a person in this suit should be able to grab some of the colder-erupting lavas in their gloved hands without issue. Furthermore, the person inside should also come by no harm if sudden volcanic activity were to cover his suit with lava.
football-fsj
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-01-01T00:54:38.613Z
It is probably due to the 15 minute restriction you mention for firefighters at 1100 C.  Getting into position and taking samples may take longer than that. Aluminum has a low heat capacity and is reflective so it is a good choice to minimize absorption and quickly radiate heat away making longer exposure possible at the expense of not allowing direct contact
casey
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-01-01T02:06:43.157Z
@Casey - Well, with the entry suit that prep time would basically be gone. Instead of having to find a safe spot to reach the lava with a metal pole, a person in the entry suit should (according to the manufacturer's specifications) be able to walk right up to the lava and grab some with his/her hand, especially if it's relatively cool lava. He/she simply wouldn't have to spend a lot of time near the lava to try to find a safe spot to get a sample because he/she wouldn't need to worry about accidentally making direct contact with the lava.
football-fsj
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-01-01T02:51:28.233Z
Scientists walk up to lava all the time and pick it up with no protective gear.  I'm sure for a video they can't do it without a suit for liability reasons.  Perhaps the lesser suit costs less as well but fits the liability parameters.
f.thorpe
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-01-01T06:35:59.090Z
I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that insulating layers were worn under the aluminized suits to protect from conductive heat but that radiant heat is the greatest issue for them. So it may be a case of balancing mobility with protection. Low temperature lava like the flows in Hawaii, further from the vent can be sampled by walking up to them in regular clothes and sticking a rock-hammer into the lava. In other places you may not be able to get close enough safely and there may be much more heat. There are heat-transfer issues - the suits may work for hot air but not so well for stuck-on lava.
haresfur
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-01-09T15:52:04.670Z
I think the only issue perhaps they would have would be that the PPE worn by firefighters - including SCBA - adds a LOT of weight to their gear.
L.B.
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-03-06T18:42:45.443Z
@haresfur, why do you refer to Hawaiian flows as "low temperature"?
foobarbecue
<volcanology><geothermal-heat><volcanic-hazard><magmatism>
Why don't scientists use fire entry suits to study volcanoes?
football-fsj
# Why don't scientists use fire entry suits to study volcanoes?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2014-12-31)

It seems like the only personal protective equipment
(PPE) that volcanologists use are aluminized suits that don't provide any protection from direct contact with lava, making an unexpected splash lethal. There are suits that firefighters use to go directly into fires for prolonged periods of time, and they are able to resist temperatures exceeding 1100 °C (~2000 °F) for up to 15 minutes at a time. Most lava is around this temperature threshold, with the coolest lava erupting at a mere 650 °C (~1200 °F).

Why don't volcanologists use these suits to study volcanoes? Instead of using those awkward long metal rods to pick out the right piece of lava to study, couldn't they use their gloved hands to pick it up (perhaps on the colder erupting lavas like the ones that does so at 650 °C)?

**Tags:** volcanology, geothermal-heat, volcanic-hazard, magmatism

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: Are you talking about [something like this](http://youtu.be/egEGaBXG3Kg)?  
> **username_0**: Yes, I'm referring to a situation like that one. The suit that the scientist uses in the video is similar to this one: [link](http://www.lakeland.com/our-products/heat-protective-clothing/500-series-approach-suits.html). He is using a fire-approach suit that has can resist high radiant heat, but only 93 deg. C for direct contact, meaning that any lava that splashed directly on him would burn right through his suit in seconds. The other scientist in the video even mentions that the suit will offer no protection, so what he is doing is very dangerous.  
> **username_0**: My question is why scientists don't use suits which can resist direct contact with lava-like temperatures for an extended duration. Meaning, according to the manufacturers specifications, a person in this suit should be able to grab some of the colder-erupting lavas in their gloved hands without issue. Furthermore, the person inside should also come by no harm if sudden volcanic activity were to cover his suit with lava.  
> **username_2**: It is probably due to the 15 minute restriction you mention for firefighters at 1100 C.  Getting into position and taking samples may take longer than that. Aluminum has a low heat capacity and is reflective so it is a good choice to minimize absorption and quickly radiate heat away making longer exposure possible at the expense of not allowing direct contact  
> **username_0**: @username_2 - Well, with the entry suit that prep time would basically be gone. Instead of having to find a safe spot to reach the lava with a metal pole, a person in the entry suit should (according to the manufacturer's specifications) be able to walk right up to the lava and grab some with his/her hand, especially if it's relatively cool lava. He/she simply wouldn't have to spend a lot of time near the lava to try to find a safe spot to get a sample because he/she wouldn't need to worry about accidentally making direct contact with the lava.  
> **username_3**: Scientists walk up to lava all the time and pick it up with no protective gear.  I'm sure for a video they can't do it without a suit for liability reasons.  Perhaps the lesser suit costs less as well but fits the liability parameters.  
> **username_4**: I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that insulating layers were worn under the aluminized suits to protect from conductive heat but that radiant heat is the greatest issue for them. So it may be a case of balancing mobility with protection. Low temperature lava like the flows in Hawaii, further from the vent can be sampled by walking up to them in regular clothes and sticking a rock-hammer into the lava. In other places you may not be able to get close enough safely and there may be much more heat. There are heat-transfer issues - the suits may work for hot air but not so well for stuck-on lava.  
> **username_5**: I think the only issue perhaps they would have would be that the PPE worn by firefighters - including SCBA - adds a LOT of weight to their gear.  
> **username_6**: @username_4, why do you refer to Hawaiian flows as "low temperature"?  

---

## 3 answers

### Answer by username_6 on 2015-03-06. Score: 27 | Accepted answer

I'm a volcanologist and I have worked on erupting volcanoes. First of all, volcanologists almost never actually wear those suits. Heat is almost never the hazard that matters in the situations in which we work. The hazards are usually the chance of being hit by ballistics, or getting gassed. The reason you see those suits so often is that they look really cool on TV.

I do know that Katia and Maurice Krafft wore them commonly, but their goal was to get as close to explosive eruptions as possible, as frequently as possible, for as long as possible. This strategy leads to death. It was a tragedy when the Kraffts (and 41 others) were killed at Unzen, but not entirely a surprising one, in retrospect. Modern volcanologists tend to be far more cautious and you might say that the heroic age of volcanology is over.

When you're working on an erupting volcano, some major things you can do to reduce risk are:

1. Wear a helmet. This would have saved lives at Galeras.
2. Reduce the amount of time you spend in the hazard zone. This means you need to work quickly, which often means carry less and don't wear silly protective gear like heat suits.
3. Wear a gas mask, usually with SO2 scrubber cartridge. Ever try to jog up a hill in one of these? It becomes hard to breathe, and the mask quickly fills up with condensation from your breath. Communication through a radio or otherwise is hindered. Everything takes longer, so sometimes the masks are left off in the interest of #2.
4. Increase your situational awareness. Maintain communications with someone who is watching data from instruments such as seismometers and tiltmeters. Also, make sure you have unobstructed vision so that you can potentially step out of the way of lava bombs which are falling towards you. Again, PPE such as a heat suit or even a gas mask can work against this.

As for the idea of "picking up" lava with your hands, remember that lava is extremely viscous, so it takes quite a lot of force to pull a sample out of a flow. The colder lavas to which you refer are even more viscous than hotter lavas. Anyway, I doubt there are any gloves that can deal with prolonged contact with a 650C fluid. (Remember that fluids and solids are far more conductive than a gas and will transfer far more heat.) I think trying to sample lava with hands would be far more "awkward" than using a pole, which is really quite a simple, easy way to do it.

Edit: I just thought of another reason volcanologists can't dress like firefighters. Expense. Volcanologists have an extremely hard time getting sufficient funding. I actually asked for an SCBA for my work in the fumarolic ice caves of Mt Erebus, where CO2 is high. We couldn't afford it on our grant. Instead, I just carefully monitor gas levels and there are caves which I cannot enter because we read dangerous levels of gas at the entrances.

Edit: I highly recommend that anyone interested in this subject read No Apparent Danger and Volcano Cowboys.

> **Comments:**
> **username_6**: For scientific purposes, I've spent time at Erebus, Sakurajima, Villarrica, Yellowstone, and most of the major volcanoes in Ecuador. I've seen some lava in HI too and climbed Mt Rainier, but those were "off-duty"!  
> **username_1**: I'm not sure about the "solid is far more conductive than gas" part  
> **username_6**: Far more conductive to heat. Air is a good insulator. A better way to say this might be that conduction is a more efficient heat transfer mechanism than convection. I dunno what sort of gloves the OP had in mind, though, so I'm not even sure if this is relevant.  
> **username_0**: @username_6 I meant these [gloves](http://www.newtex.com/nxp/gloves-mitts/zetexplus-200-series) They claim to have an "operating temp" of 815 degrees celsius and a maximum temp of over 1,000 degrees celsius. Would it be possible to pick up the colder erupting lava in those?  
> **username_6**: Hm... I dunno! They sure are rated to high temps; I guess maybe you could use those to stick your hand in a flow and scoop some out, but I'm not volunteering! You could ask the manufacturer if they're rated for immersion in liquid... or just straight up ask them if you can use them to scoop lava. Let me know if you get a response!  
> **username_6**: @username_9 woah, thanks for the edit. What a weird mistake I made! I had other Kraffts on the brain...  
> **username_9**: You're welcome! While I'm here, I have to say I disagree with the " not entirely surprising tragedy" part. PDCs were not well understood at the time (they still aren't fully understood today). They had witnessed several PDCs from the same viewpoint previously: all of them were kept channelized in the valley. They had no way to guess that one could eventually overflow. They were bold but not suicidal, if they had thought it could be deadly to be there they wouldn't have done it. Great answer otherwise!  
> **username_10**: Why do you need to constantly monitor co2?  

---

### Answer by username_7 on 2015-01-03. Score: 11

I think the answer to "Why don't scientists use fire entry suits to study volcanoes?" is that this is a question of professional ethics rather than of technology. For some institution to support, condone, or fund such a proposal, it would first have to conduct some sort of a safety review. At a significant cost, this approach would encourage risky behavior, put personnel into greater danger, and for small gains that could be obtained by safer alternatives. I expect most university, research or governmental agencies would decide this would be unethical to support because it may encourage greater risk-taking and injury to their technicians.

Although firefighters may use such protective suits, their objective is to save the lives of others. Although manned space flight is also a highly risky project, the payoff is potentially much higher and there may be no practical alternatives. There are safer ways to obtain a sample of fresh lava - a long pole or a robot.

It's very sad that there have been some fatal accidents of persons observing volcanos. To my knowledge however, the sort of 'protective' wear you suggest would not have saved lives in these cases, the circumstances were devastatingly powerful, explosive, and catastrophic and not the sort of risk technicians experience in industry. Examples of 'acceptable-risk' in this would be something comparable to what a worker in a steel foundry or glass-blowing shop might experience. Do these workers use such suits? Volcanologists should at least take the same level of precaution as comparable industrial workers.

So my answer is that the question is not entirely technical, once lives are involved there are ethical questions as well.


---

### Answer by username_8 on 2015-01-03. Score: 3

Main danger to life near a volcano is not heat from the lava but volcanic gases. Volcanic gases are typically very acidic, poisonous gases and can displace breathable air near lava flows.

<http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/hazards/gas/>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_gas>

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Given that fire entry suits almost always have built-in air supply (SCBA), this isn't really the answer that I am looking for.  

---

