<p>I'm doing a school project on cosmic rays (using data from the HiSPARC database), and we need to be able to calculate the average temperature of the atmosphere above specific cities on a specific date to input into the Ideal Gas Equation (PV=nRT). We are trying to find an estimate for the number of molecules between the detectors and space, which is where the proton emitted breaks down into the parts which are detected, so that we can create a mathematical model which can calculate an estimate for the number of cosmic rays detected by a detector in a day. I've looked around, but nowhere tells me a way to do it, including other questions on this site. We've decided to do one effect at a time, so there may be more questions like this in the future. Can anyone help me?</p>

<p>Good news - thanks to those that gave answers I have values for the number of molecules. This question is answered! (Watch me for others soon: possibly clouds and such)</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-11-03T11:18:07.167Z
Did you have specific height/altitude in mind? The trouble with the Earth's atmosphere is that is not uniform. There are 4 layers, each with their own temperature & density characteristics. In the troposphere, temperature decreases with altitude, whereas in the stratosphere it increases with altitude.
Fred
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-11-03T12:15:52.063Z
Indeed, as Fred said, this may be a complicated problem.  Not only does T vary, but so do P.  Plus, what type of average would you do (height averaged, mass weighted, pressure weighted, etc).  Likewise, there are issues with what you call the top of the atmosphere.
JeopardyTempest
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-11-03T12:21:24.223Z
Wonder if just maybe a better starting point would be that atmospheric pressure is force/area.  And the force is the weight of the molecules above.  You'd still have trouble due to the fact gas compositions vary by height.  So you couldn't just turn the mass determined into the number of molecules.  And although a majority of mass in the atmosphere is in the troposphere, where it is quite homogeneous (EXCEPT FOR WATER VAPOR!), I'd think the stratified layers of lighter gases very high in the atmosphere may still contribute greatly to molecule count.  Oye.
JeopardyTempest
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-11-03T12:25:18.293Z
But this still seems to have less assumptions needed than trying to use variable P/T profiles... or assuming a V for the atmosphere.  And I don't know that there will be any regular data for full-atmosphere on these values (we take tropospheric soundings, but like I said, there's still quite a bit of gas above where we measure meteorologically that could have important impacts). Perhaps the people to look towards are actually astronomers, as you'd think they'd need such data for telescopes and things like the Lunar Laser Ranging Experiment (or alternatively, can derive such values from it?)???
JeopardyTempest
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-11-07T06:54:36.030Z
Look up lapse rate.   While it varies with circulation and watervapor, it gives a rough calculation for how temperature drops above sea level and that can be used for temperature above cities.    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapse_rate   The lapse rate ends at the tropopause where the atmosphere basically settles, and begins to warm, lighter air stays on top, heavier stays on the bottom.   That sounds like a fun project.  lots of math.   You can also calculate mass above by air pressure, they are closely related.   14.4 psi means a square inch column of air weights 14.4 lbs.
userLTK
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-11-08T12:26:40.617Z
Great help everyone thank you for answering
H. Clutterbuck
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-11-08T12:28:03.920Z
userLTK What do you mean about the 14.4 psi? How tall is that column? That could be the most helpful thing I have found so far. Also, great idea JeopardyTempest. I can't believe we didn't think of that.
H. Clutterbuck
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-11-08T20:47:25.050Z
@H.Clutterbuck technically all the way up, but the atmosphere only goes up about 300 miles.   Nearly all the mass is well below that, so you don't need to go that high.    I was just saying you can use air pressure as an estimate to know what percentage of the atmosphere is below you and what percentage is above.
userLTK
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-11-08T22:46:04.307Z
I see the question is marked as answered, but in any case I feel it may be useful to others to include a reference to the International Standard Atmosphere ISA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Atmosphere) which is what is used in aviation to model standard atmospheric parameters. The lapse rate mentioned above is one component of the ISA.
Cpt Reynolds
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-11-09T04:24:12.163Z
H, suggest you would post what answer you got and how you got it, so people with similar issues in the future can see what you got.  You could also update on how valid it was (if you get independent on cosmic rays you can benchmark against)
JeopardyTempest
<meteorology><atmosphere><climate><temperature><gas>
How do we calculate an average temperature for the air above a specific point from weather data?
H. Clutterbuck
# How do we calculate an average temperature for the air above a specific point from weather data?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2017-11-03)

I'm doing a school project on cosmic rays (using data from the HiSPARC database), and we need to be able to calculate the average temperature of the atmosphere above specific cities on a specific date to input into the Ideal Gas Equation (PV=nRT). We are trying to find an estimate for the number of molecules between the detectors and space, which is where the proton emitted breaks down into the parts which are detected, so that we can create a mathematical model which can calculate an estimate for the number of cosmic rays detected by a detector in a day. I've looked around, but nowhere tells me a way to do it, including other questions on this site. We've decided to do one effect at a time, so there may be more questions like this in the future. Can anyone help me?

Good news - thanks to those that gave answers I have values for the number of molecules. This question is answered! (Watch me for others soon: possibly clouds and such)

**Tags:** meteorology, atmosphere, climate, temperature, gas

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: Did you have specific height/altitude in mind? The trouble with the Earth's atmosphere is that is not uniform. There are 4 layers, each with their own temperature & density characteristics. In the troposphere, temperature decreases with altitude, whereas in the stratosphere it increases with altitude.  
> **username_2**: Indeed, as username_1 said, this may be a complicated problem.  Not only does T vary, but so do P.  Plus, what type of average would you do (height averaged, mass weighted, pressure weighted, etc).  Likewise, there are issues with what you call the top of the atmosphere.  
> **username_2**: Wonder if just maybe a better starting point would be that atmospheric pressure is force/area.  And the force is the weight of the molecules above.  You'd still have trouble due to the fact gas compositions vary by height.  So you couldn't just turn the mass determined into the number of molecules.  And although a majority of mass in the atmosphere is in the troposphere, where it is quite homogeneous (EXCEPT FOR WATER VAPOR!), I'd think the stratified layers of lighter gases very high in the atmosphere may still contribute greatly to molecule count.  Oye.  
> **username_2**: But this still seems to have less assumptions needed than trying to use variable P/T profiles... or assuming a V for the atmosphere.  And I don't know that there will be any regular data for full-atmosphere on these values (we take tropospheric soundings, but like I said, there's still quite a bit of gas above where we measure meteorologically that could have important impacts). Perhaps the people to look towards are actually astronomers, as you'd think they'd need such data for telescopes and things like the Lunar Laser Ranging Experiment (or alternatively, can derive such values from it?)???  
> **username_3**: Look up lapse rate.   While it varies with circulation and watervapor, it gives a rough calculation for how temperature drops above sea level and that can be used for temperature above cities.    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapse_rate   The lapse rate ends at the tropopause where the atmosphere basically settles, and begins to warm, lighter air stays on top, heavier stays on the bottom.   That sounds like a fun project.  lots of math.   You can also calculate mass above by air pressure, they are closely related.   14.4 psi means a square inch column of air weights 14.4 lbs.  
> **username_0**: Great help everyone thank you for answering  
> **username_0**: username_3 What do you mean about the 14.4 psi? How tall is that column? That could be the most helpful thing I have found so far. Also, great idea username_2. I can't believe we didn't think of that.  
> **username_3**: @username_0 technically all the way up, but the atmosphere only goes up about 300 miles.   Nearly all the mass is well below that, so you don't need to go that high.    I was just saying you can use air pressure as an estimate to know what percentage of the atmosphere is below you and what percentage is above.  
> **username_4**: I see the question is marked as answered, but in any case I feel it may be useful to others to include a reference to the International Standard Atmosphere ISA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Atmosphere) which is what is used in aviation to model standard atmospheric parameters. The lapse rate mentioned above is one component of the ISA.  
> **username_2**: H, suggest you would post what answer you got and how you got it, so people with similar issues in the future can see what you got.  You could also update on how valid it was (if you get independent on cosmic rays you can benchmark against)  

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## 0 answers

