and right around this time, she's working on a long poem called in the mecca..mm-hmm (affirmative).which is set in a demolished apartment complex on the south side.

AH0-N D-R-AY1 T-ER0 AW1-N-D DH-IH1-S T-AY1-M SH-EH1 S-W-ER1 K-IH0 NG-AA1 N-AH0 L-AO1-NG P-OW1 AH0-M K-AO1-L D-IH0-N DH-AH0 M-EH1 K-AH0 M-IH0 TH-AH0 F-ER1 M-AH0 F-AH0 CH-AH0 W-IH0 CH-IH1-Z S-EH1 T-IH0 N-AH0 D-IH0 M-AA1 L-IH0-SH T-AH0 P-AA1-R T-M-AH0-N-T K-AA1-M P-L-EH0-K S-AA1-N DH-AH0 S-AW1-TH S-AY1-D


it's an incredible poem. but i think for many people..

IH1-T S-AE1 N-IH0-N K-R-EH1 D-AH0 B-AH0-L P-OW1 AH0-M B-AH1 T-AY1 TH-IH1-NG-K F-AO1-R M-EH1 N-IY0 P-IY1 P-AH0-L


this is the moment when she really becomes much more committed to political poetry.

DH-IH1 S-IH1-Z DH-AH0 M-OW1 M-AH0-N T-W-EH1-N SH-IY1 R-IH1 L-IY0 B-IH0 K-AH1-M Z-M-AH1 CH-M-AO1-R K-AH0 M-IH1 T-AH0-D T-UW1 P-AH0 L-IH1 T-AH0 K-AH0-L P-OW1 AH0 T-R-IY0


but when you see something like this letter, i think when you read..

B-AH1 T-W-EH1 N-Y-UW1 S-IY1 S-AH1-M TH-IH0 NG-L-AY1-K DH-IH1 S-L-EH1 T-ER0 AY1 TH-IH1-NG K-W-EH1 N-Y-UW1 R-EH1-D


very closely into her early work, at least to my mind, works is of course political from the start.

V-EH1 R-IY0 K-L-OW1 S-L-IY0 IH0-N T-UW1 HH-ER0 ER1 L-IY0 W-ER1 K-AE1 T-L-IY1-S-T T-UW1 M-AY1 M-AY1-N D-W-ER1-K S-IH1 Z-AH1-V K-AO1-R-S P-AH0 L-IH1 T-AH0 K-AH0-L F-R-AH1-M DH-AH0-S T-AA1-R-T


in 1945, she writes a poem about an abortion.

IH0-N N-AY1-N T-IY1-N F-AO1-R T-IY0 F-AY1-V SH-IY1 R-AY1-T S-AH0 P-OW1 AH0 M-AH0 B-AW1 T-AE1 N-AH0 B-AO1-R SH-AH0-N


mm-hmm (affirmative).it's an astonishing poem called the mother. and her first book, a street in bronzeville..

M-AH1 M-AH0 F-ER1 M-AH0 T-IH0-S T-IH0 D-AE1 N-AH0-S T-AA1 N-IH0 SH-IH0-NG P-OW1 AH0-M K-AO1-L-D DH-AH0 M-AH1 DH-ER0 AH0-N-D HH-ER0 F-ER1-S-T B-UH1 K-AH0-S T-R-IY1 T-IH0-N B-R-AA1-N Z-AH0 V-IH0-L


there are countless other poems that are deeply engaged with..

DH-EH1 R-AA1-R K-AW1-N T-L-AH0 S-AH1 DH-ER0 P-OW1 AH0-M-Z DH-AE1 T-AA1-R D-IY1 P-L-IY0 EH0-N G-EY1-JH D-W-IH1-DH


is essentially not the provision of democracy at home. this is throughout her work. so, again..

IH1 Z-IH0 S-EH1-N SH-AH0 L-IY0 N-AA1-T DH-AH0 P-R-AH0 V-IH1 ZH-AH0 N-AH1-V D-IH0 M-AA1 K-R-AH0 S-IY0 AE1-T HH-OW1-M DH-IH1 S-IH1-Z TH-R-UW0 AW1-T HH-ER0 W-ER1-K S-OW1 AH0 G-EH1-N


i don't want to pin everything on this recipe, but it is really interesting how close she is to a political radical, right?mm-hmm (affirmative).and this is 1961.

AY1 D-AA1-N T-W-AA1-N-T T-UW1 P-IH1 N-EH1 V-R-IY0 TH-IH2 NG-AA1-N DH-IH1 S-R-EH1 S-AH0 P-IY0 B-AH1 T-IH1 T-IH1 Z-R-IH1 L-IY0 IH1-N T-R-AH0-S T-IH0-NG HH-AW1 K-L-OW1-S SH-IY1 IH1-Z T-UW1 AH0 P-AH0 L-IH1 T-AH0 K-AH0-L R-AE1 D-AH0 K-AH0-L R-AY1 T-M-AH0 M-AE2 F-ER0 M-AH0 D-EH1-N T-IH0-K DH-IH1 S-IH1 Z-N-AY1-N T-IY1-N S-IH1-K-S T-IY0 W-AH1-N


and i have to give due credit here to the scholar, mary helen washington, who identifies this poem..

AH0-N D-AY1 HH-AE1-V T-UW1 G-IH1-V D-UW1 K-R-EH1 D-AH0-T HH-IY1-R T-UW1 DH-AH0-S K-AA1 L-ER0 M-EH1 R-IY0 HH-EH1 L-AH0 N-W-AA1 SH-IH0-NG T-AH0-N HH-UW1 AY0 D-EH1-N T-AH0 F-AY2-Z DH-IH1-S P-OW1 AH0-M


it's called jack. she identifies this poem as being about jack conroy.mm-hmm (affirmative)and that's in washington's book called the other black list.

IH1-T-S K-AO1-L-D JH-AE1-K SH-IY1 AY0 D-EH1-N T-AH0 F-AY2-Z DH-IH1-S P-OW1 AH0 M-AE1-Z B-IY1 IH0 NG-AH0 B-AW1-T JH-AE1-K K-AA1 N-R-AH0 HH-IH2 M-AE2 F-ER0 M-AH0 D-EH1-N T-IH0-K TH-AE1-T S-IH0 N-W-AA1 SH-IH0-NG T-AH0-N-Z B-UH1-K K-AO1-L-D DH-AH0 AH1 DH-ER0 B-L-AE1 K-L-IH1-S-T


it's a very short poem. it's just eight lines.

IH1-T S-AH0 V-EH1 R-IY0 SH-AO1-R-T P-OW1 AH0 M-IH1-T-S JH-AH1-S T-EY1 T-L-AY1-N-Z


it's from her 1960 volume called the bean eaters.

IH1-T-S F-R-AH1-M HH-ER0 N-AY1-N T-IY1-N S-IH1-K-S T-IY0 V-AA1 L-Y-UW0-M K-AO1-L-D DH-AH0 B-IY1 N-IY1 T-ER0-Z


it's a bit cryptic actually, for me. i read it a few times..

IH1-T S-AH0 B-IH1-T K-R-IH1-P T-IH0 K-AE1-K CH-AH0 W-AH0 L-IY0 F-AO1-R M-IY1 AY1 R-EH1 D-IH1 T-AH0 F-Y-UW1 T-AY1-M-Z


it almost seems a bit..

IH1 T-AO1-L M-OW2-S-T S-IY1-M Z-AH0 B-IH1-T


nursery rhyme- esque. jack and jill go up the hill.mm-hmm (affirmative)so it's called jack, and actually the title of the poem is really, in some ways, the first line of the poem.

N-ER1 S-ER0 IY0 R-AY1 M-EH1-S-K JH-AE1 K-AH0-N-D JH-IH1-L G-OW1 AH1-P DH-AH0 HH-IH1-L-M F-AE2 F-ER0 M-AH0-T S-IY1 F-IY0 IH1-T-S K-AO1-L-D JH-AE1 K-AH0-N D-AE1-K CH-AH0 W-AH0 L-IY0 DH-AH0 T-AY1 T-AH0 L-AH1-V DH-AH0 P-OW1 AH0 M-IH1 Z-R-IH1 L-IY0 IH0-N S-AH1 M-W-EY1-Z DH-AH0 F-ER1-S T-L-AY1 N-AH1-V DH-AH0 P-OW1 AH0-M


"jack is not spend thrift of faith."

JH-AE1 K-IH1 Z-N-AA1-T-S P-EH1-N-D TH-R-IH1-F T-AH1-V F-EY1-TH


"he has a skinny eye. he spins a wariness of faith.."

HH-IY1 HH-AE1 Z-AH0-S K-IH1 N-IY0 AY1 HH-IY1-S P-IH1-N Z-AH0 W-EH1 R-IY0 N-IH0 S-AH1-V F-EY1-TH


"and comes it up his faith bought true."

AH0-N-D K-AH1-M Z-IH1 T-AH1-P HH-IH1-Z F-EY1-TH B-AA1-T T-R-UW1


"he spends a little more and comes it up his faith bought false."

HH-IY1-S P-EH1-N-D Z-AH0 L-IH1 T-AH0-L M-AO1 R-AH0-N-D K-AH1-M Z-IH1 T-AH1-P HH-IH1-Z F-EY1-TH B-AA1-T F-AO1-L-S


so i don't even know how to read it.

S-OW1 AY1 D-AA1-N T-IY1 V-IH0-N N-OW1 HH-AW1 T-UW1 R-EH1 D-IH1-T


last line, almost kind of missing a beat.

L-AE1-S T-L-AY1 N-AO1-L M-OW2-S-T K-AY1-N D-AH1 V-M-IH1 S-IH0 NG-AH0 B-IY1-T


what can be bought? who has the money to buy faith?

W-AH1-T K-AE1-N B-IY1 B-AA1-T HH-UW1 HH-AE1-Z DH-AH0 M-AH1 N-IY0 T-UW1 B-AY1 F-EY1-TH


if jack is not a spendthrift of faith, is he not spending too much on faith?

IH1-F JH-AE1 K-IH1 Z-N-AA1 T-AH0-S P-EH1-N-D TH-R-IH2-F T-AH1-V F-EY1 TH-IH1-Z HH-IY1 N-AA1-T-S P-EH1-N D-IH0-NG T-UW1 M-AH1 CH-AA1-N F-EY1-TH


i mean, faith in some ways is another way to also think about a set of beliefs in what you know.mm-hmm (affirmative)which guide your life.

AY1 M-IY1-N F-EY1 TH-IH0-N S-AH1 M-W-EY1 Z-IH1 Z-AH0 N-AH1 DH-ER0 W-EY1 T-UW1 AO1-L S-OW0 TH-IH1-NG K-AH0 B-AW1 T-AH0 S-EH1 T-AH1-V B-IH0 L-IY1-F S-IH0 N-W-AH1 T-Y-UW1 N-AA1 M-AH0 N-AH0 F-ER1 M-AH0 F-AH0 CH-AH0 W-IH0-CH G-AY1 D-Y-AO1-R L-AY1-F


a kind of ideology, he's a communist, but nonetheless..

AH0 K-AY1-N D-AH1 V-AY2 D-IY0 AA1 L-AH0 JH-IY0 HH-IY1 Z-AH0 K-AA1 M-Y-AH0 N-AH0-S-T B-AH1 T-N-AH2-N DH-AH0 L-EH1-S


of imposing that upon others.

AH1 V-IH0-M P-OW1 Z-IH0-NG DH-AE1 T-AH0 P-AA1 N-AH1 DH-ER0-Z


and that there's a very tricky use of the word, "it"..

AH0-N-D DH-AE1-T DH-EH1-R Z-AH0 V-EH1 R-IY0 T-R-IH1 K-IY0 Y-UW1 S-AH1-V DH-AH0 W-ER1 D-IH1-T


is signifying in the second stanza [crosstalk 00:06:22] "and comes it up his faith bought true and comes it up his faith bought true."

IH1-Z S-IH1 G-N-AH0 F-AY2 IH0 NG-IH0-N DH-AH0 S-EH1 K-AH0-N-D-S T-AE1-N Z-AH0 K-R-AO1-S T-AO1-K Z-IH1 R-OW0 AW1 ER0-Z S-IH1-K S-M-IH1 N-AH0-T S-AH0-N-D T-W-EH1-N T-IY0 T-UW1 S-EH1 K-AH0-N-D Z-AH0-N-D K-AH1-M Z-IH1 T-AH1-P HH-IH1-Z F-EY1-TH B-AA1-T T-R-UW1 AH0-N-D K-AH1-M Z-IH1 T-AH1-P HH-IH1-Z F-EY1-TH B-AA1-T T-R-UW1


so i leave that out there for our listeners to parse, right? [crosstalk 00:06:35] from the bean eaters.

S-OW1 AY1 L-IY1-V DH-AE1 T-AW1-T DH-EH1-R F-AO1 R-AW1 ER0 L-IH1 S-AH0 N-ER0-Z T-UW1 P-AA1-R S-R-AY1-T K-R-AO1-S T-AO1-K Z-IH1 R-OW0 AW1 ER0-Z S-IH1-K S-M-IH1 N-AH0-T S-AH0-N-D TH-ER1 D-IY0 F-AY1-V S-EH1 K-AH0-N-D-Z F-R-AH1-M DH-AH0 B-IY1 N-IY1 T-ER0-Z


we're going to stick with brooks' writing, but i want to ask you..

W-ER0 G-OW1 IH0-NG T-UW1-S T-IH1 K-W-IH1-DH B-R-UH1-K S-R-AY1 T-IH0-NG B-AH1 T-AY1 W-AA1-N-T T-UW1 AE1-S K-Y-UW1


how did she address food in [crosstalk 00:06:45] her writing?mm-hmm (affirmative) right.

HH-AW1 D-IH1-D SH-IY1 AE1 D-R-EH2-S F-UW1 D-IH0-N K-R-AO1-S T-AO1-K Z-IH1 R-OW0 AW1 ER0-Z S-IH1-K S-M-IH1 N-AH0-T S-AH0-N-D F-AO1-R T-IY0 F-AY1-V S-EH1 K-AH0-N-D-Z HH-ER0 R-IH1 T-IH0-NG M-AH0-N D-AH0 F-ER1 M-AH0 T-IH0 V-R-AY1-T


well, i think for people who know brooks' work probably the moment that is..

W-EH1 L-AY1 TH-IH1-NG-K F-AO1-R P-IY1 P-AH0-L HH-UW1 N-OW1 B-R-UH1-K S-W-ER1-K P-R-AA1 B-AH0 B-L-IY0 DH-AH0 M-OW1 M-AH0-N-T DH-AE1 T-IH1-Z


most palpable as in, her only work of prose fiction called mod martha published in 1953.

M-OW1-S-T P-AE1-L P-AH0 B-AH0 L-AE1 Z-IH0-N HH-ER0 OW1 N-L-IY0 W-ER1 K-AH1-V P-R-OW1-Z F-IH1-K SH-AH0-N K-AO1-L D-M-AO1 D-M-AA1-R TH-AH0 P-AH1 B-L-IH0-SH T-IH0-N N-AY1-N T-IY1-N F-IH1-F T-IY0 TH-R-IY1


they have feathers, that's a good question. i can't remember from how she describes it, if there's..

DH-EY1 HH-AE1-V F-EH1 DH-ER0-Z TH-AE1-T S-AH0 G-UH1-D K-W-EH1-S CH-AH0 N-AY1 K-AE1-N T-R-IH0 M-EH1-M B-ER0 F-R-AH1-M HH-AW1 SH-IY1 D-IH0-S K-R-AY1-B Z-IH1 T-IH1-F DH-EH1-R-Z


still, i don't think so, but she's certainly hacking it away..oh boy.and pulling stuff out. it's very vivid. and it's this..

S-T-IH1 L-AY1 D-AA1-N-T TH-IH1-NG-K S-OW1 B-AH1-T SH-EH1-S S-ER1 T-AH0 N-L-IY0 HH-AE1 K-IH0 NG-IH1 T-AH0 W-EY1 HH-OW0 B-OY1 AH0-N-D P-UH1 L-IH0-NG-S T-AH1 F-AW1 T-IH1-T-S V-EH1 R-IY0 V-IH1 V-AH0 D-AH0-N D-IH1-T-S DH-IH1-S


it's a short little chapter called brotherly love, chapter 28 and..

IH1-T S-AH0 SH-AO1-R T-L-IH1 T-AH0-L CH-AE1-P T-ER0 K-AO1-L-D B-R-AH1 DH-ER0 L-IY0 L-AH1-V CH-AE1-P T-ER0 T-W-EH1-N T-IY0 EY1 T-AH0-N-D


strangely it's a reference too, to like how we empathize with others, how we empathize with our brothers and sisters, right?

S-T-R-EY1-N JH-L-IY0 IH1-T S-AH0 R-EH1 F-ER0 AH0-N-S T-UW1 T-UW1 L-AY1-K HH-AW1 W-IY1 EH1-M P-AH0 TH-AY2 Z-W-IH1 DH-AH1 DH-ER0-Z HH-AW1 W-IY1 EH1-M P-AH0 TH-AY2 Z-W-IH1 DH-AW1 ER0 B-R-AH1 DH-ER0 Z-AH0-N-D S-IH1-S T-ER0 Z-R-AY1-T


how we find a place to understand who they are, despite our differences and such, she..

HH-AW1 W-IY1 F-AY1-N D-AH0 P-L-EY1-S T-UW1 AH2-N D-ER0-S T-AE1-N-D HH-UW1 DH-EY1 AA1-R D-IH0-S P-AY1 T-AW1 ER0 D-IH1 F-ER0 AH0-N S-IH0 Z-AH0-N-D S-AH1-CH SH-IY1


brooks that is, kind of imposes this idea of brotherly love upon the chicken.

B-R-UH1-K-S DH-AE1 T-IH1-Z K-AY1-N D-AH1 V-IH0-M P-OW1 Z-AH0-Z DH-IH1 S-AY0 D-IY1 AH0 AH1-V B-R-AH1 DH-ER0 L-IY0 L-AH1 V-AH0 P-AA1-N DH-AH0 CH-IH1 K-AH0-N


how do i empathize with this chicken? you think it might be some sort of call for vegetarianism at the end. it's not at all because the..

HH-AW1 D-UW1 AY1 EH1-M P-AH0 TH-AY2 Z-W-IH1-DH DH-IH1-S CH-IH1 K-AH0 N-Y-UW1 TH-IH1-NG K-IH1 T-M-AY1-T B-IY1 S-AH1-M S-AO1-R T-AH1-V K-AO1-L F-AO1-R V-EH2 JH-AH0 T-EH1 R-IY0 AH0 N-IH0 Z-AH0 M-AE1-T DH-AH0 EH1-N D-IH1-T S-N-AA1 T-AE1 T-AO1-L B-IH0 K-AO1-Z DH-AH0


the chapter ends when the animal was ready for the oven..

DH-AH0 CH-AE1-P T-ER0 EH1-N-D Z-W-EH1-N DH-AH0 AE1 N-AH0 M-AH0 L-W-AA1 Z-R-EH1 D-IY0 F-AO1-R DH-AH0 AH1 V-AH0-N


so it's an ironizing [crosstalk 00:08:11] of the rhetoric around finding a kind of commonality with somebody who is unlike..

S-OW1 IH1-T S-AE1 N-AY1 ER0 N-AY2 Z-IH0-NG K-R-AO1-S T-AO1-K Z-IH1 R-OW0 AW1 ER0 Z-EY1 T-M-IH1 N-AH0-T S-AH0-N D-IH0 L-EH1 V-AH0-N S-EH1 K-AH0-N-D Z-AH1-V DH-AH0 R-EH1 T-ER0 IH0 K-ER0 AW1-N-D F-AY1-N D-IH0 NG-AH0 K-AY1-N D-AH1-V K-AA2 M-AH0 N-AE1 L-AH0 T-IY0 W-IH1-DH S-AH1-M B-AA2 D-IY0 HH-UW1 IH1 Z-AH0 N-L-AY1-K


unlike you. i mean, right before the end, brooks writes, "people could do this. people could cut a chicken open.."

AH0 N-L-AY1 K-Y-UW1 AY1 M-IY1 N-R-AY1-T B-IH0 F-AO1-R DH-AH0 EH1-N-D B-R-UH1-K S-R-AY1-T-S P-IY1 P-AH0-L K-UH1-D D-UW1 DH-IH1-S P-IY1 P-AH0-L K-UH1-D K-AH1 T-AH0 CH-IH1 K-AH0 N-OW1 P-AH0-N


"take out the mess with bare hands or a bread knife, pour water in, as in a bag.."

T-EY1 K-AW1-T DH-AH0 M-EH1 S-W-IH1-DH B-EH1-R HH-AE1-N-D Z-AO1 R-AH0 B-R-EH1 D-N-AY1-F P-AO1 R-W-AO1 T-ER0 IH0 N-AE1 Z-IH0 N-AH0 B-AE1-G


"pour water out, shake the corpse by neck or by legs.."

P-AO1 R-W-AO1 T-ER0 AW1-T SH-EY1-K DH-AH0 K-AO1-R-P-S B-AY1 N-EH1 K-AO1-R B-AY1 L-EH1-G-Z


and here's the part where brooks brings in..

AH0-N-D HH-IH1-R-Z DH-AH0 P-AA1-R T-W-EH1-R B-R-UH1-K-S B-R-IH1-NG Z-IH0-N


rhetoric that mod martha has perhaps been hearing..

R-EH1 T-ER0 IH0-K DH-AE1 T-M-AO1 D-M-AA1-R TH-AH0 HH-AE1-Z P-ER0 HH-AE1-P-S B-IH1-N HH-IY1 R-IH0-NG


what goes through somebody's head when they're alone in the kitchen, battling out with the chicken.

W-AH1-T G-OW1-Z TH-R-UW1 S-AH1-M B-AA2 D-IY0-Z HH-EH1 D-W-EH1-N TH-EH1 R-AH0 L-OW1 N-IH0-N DH-AH0 K-IH1 CH-AH0-N B-AE1 T-AH0 L-IH0 NG-AW1 T-W-IH1-DH DH-AH0 CH-IH1 K-AH0-N


and yet the chicken was a sort of person, a respectable individual with its own kind of dignity.

AH0-N D-Y-EH1-T DH-AH0 CH-IH1 K-AH0 N-W-AA1 Z-AH0 S-AO1-R T-AH1-V P-ER1 S-AH0 N-AH0 R-IH0-S P-EH1-K T-AH0 B-AH0 L-IH2-N D-AH0 V-IH1 JH-AH0 W-AH0 L-W-IH1 DH-IH1-T S-OW1-N K-AY1-N D-AH1-V D-IH1 G-N-AH0 T-IY0


the difference was in the knowing. what was unreal to you..

DH-AH0 D-IH1 F-ER0 AH0-N S-W-AA1 Z-IH0-N DH-AH0 N-OW1 IH0 NG-W-AH1 T-W-AA1 Z-AH0 N-R-IY1-L T-UW1 Y-UW1


you could deal with violently. if chickens were ever to be safe, people would have to live with them and know them..

Y-UW1 K-UH1-D D-IY1 L-W-IH1-DH V-AY1 AH0 L-AH0-N T-L-IY0 IH1-F CH-IH1 K-AH0-N Z-W-ER0 EH1 V-ER0 T-UW1 B-IY1 S-EY1-F P-IY1 P-AH0 L-W-UH1-D HH-AE1-V T-UW1 L-AY1 V-W-IH1-DH DH-EH1 M-AH0-N D-N-OW1 DH-EH1-M


see them loving their children, finishing the evening meal, arranging jealousy.

S-IY1 DH-EH1 M-L-AH1 V-IH0-NG DH-EH1-R CH-IH1-L D-R-AH0-N F-IH1 N-IH0 SH-IH0-NG DH-AH0 IY1 V-N-IH0-NG M-IY1 L-ER0 EY1-N JH-IH0-NG JH-EH1 L-AH0 S-IY0


right?mm-hmm (affirmative).about a chicken. but no, then the chapter ends..

R-AY1 T-M-AH0 M-AE2 F-ER0 M-AH0 B-EH1 T-AH0 M-AH0 T-AH0 CH-IH1 K-AH0-N B-AH1 T-N-OW1 DH-EH1-N DH-AH0 CH-AE1-P T-ER0 EH1-N-D-Z


the chicken's in the oven and mod martha smacking her lips.

DH-AH0 CH-IH1 K-AH0-N Z-IH0-N DH-AH0 AH1 V-AH0 N-AH0-N D-M-AO1 D-M-AA1-R TH-AH0 S-M-AE1 K-IH0-NG HH-ER0 L-IH1-P-S


so there's no move there to really get to know the chicken.right.it's supposed to be [crosstalk 00:09:47].but if we did..

S-OW1 T-IY1 HH-IY1 R-IH1 Z-N-OW1 M-UW1-V DH-EH1-R T-UW1 R-IH1 L-IY0 G-EH1-T T-UW1 N-OW1 DH-AH0 CH-IH1 K-AH0-N D-AA1 T-R-AY1-T D-AA1 T-IH1-T K-W-OW1 T-EH1-S S-AH0 P-OW1-Z-D T-UW1 B-IY1 K-R-AO1-S T-AO1-K Z-IH1 R-OW0 AW1 ER0 Z-N-AY1-N M-IH1 N-AH0-T S-AH0-N-D F-AO1-R T-IY0 S-EH1 V-AH0-N S-EH1 K-AH0-N-D-Z B-AH1 T-IH1 F-W-IY1 D-IH1-D


yeah. [crosstalk 00:09:48].but if one did..yeah. right. [crosstalk 00:09:53] so as i mentioned earlier in the introduction..

Y-AE1 K-R-AO1-S T-AO1-K Z-IH1 R-OW0 AW1 ER0 Z-N-AY1-N M-IH1 N-AH0-T S-AH0-N-D F-AO1-R T-IY0 EY1-T S-EH1 K-AH0-N-D-Z B-AH1 T-IH1 F-W-AH1-N D-IH0 D-IY1 AH0 R-AY1-T K-R-AO1-S T-AO1-K Z-IH1 R-OW0 AW1 ER0 Z-N-AY1-N M-IH1 N-AH0-T S-AH0-N-D F-IH1-F T-IY0 TH-R-IY1 S-EH1 K-AH0-N-D-Z S-OW1 AE1 Z-AY1 M-EH1-N SH-AH0-N D-ER1 L-IY0 ER0 IH0-N DH-AH0 IH2-N T-R-AH0 D-AH1-K SH-AH0-N


several of us got together and actually recreated this frozen fruit salad recipe that gwendolyn brooks sent to jack conroy.

S-EH1 V-R-AH0 L-AH1 V-AH1-S G-AA1-T T-AH0 G-EH1 DH-ER0 AH0-N D-AE1-K CH-AH0 W-AH0 L-IY0 R-EH1 K-R-IY0 EY2 T-IH0-D DH-IH1-S F-R-OW1 Z-AH0-N F-R-UW1-T S-AE1 L-AH0 D-R-EH1 S-AH0 P-IY0 DH-AE1-T G-W-EH1-N D-AH0 L-IH0-N B-R-UH1-K-S S-EH1-N-T T-UW1 JH-AE1-K K-AO1 N-R-OY0


so i want to know what inspired you to recreate this recipe.

S-OW1 AY1 W-AA1-N-T T-UW1 N-OW1 W-AH1 T-IH0-N-S P-AY1 ER0 D-Y-UW1 T-UW1 R-EH1 K-R-IY0 EY2-T DH-IH1 S-R-EH1 S-AH0 P-IY0


right, and why was this the one that we decided that we were really going to play out?

R-AY1 T-AH0-N D-W-AY1 W-AA1-Z DH-IH1-S DH-AH0 W-AH1-N DH-AE1 T-W-IY1 D-IH0 S-AY1 D-IH0-D DH-AE1 T-W-IY1 W-ER0 R-IH1 L-IY0 G-OW1 IH0-NG T-UW1 P-L-EY1 AW1-T


yes, so much whipping cream, cream cheese mixed with cut up canned fruit.

Y-EH1-S S-OW1 M-AH1 CH-W-IH1 P-IH0-NG K-R-IY1-M K-R-IY1-M CH-IY1 Z-M-IH1-K-S T-W-IH1-DH K-AH1 T-AH1-P K-AE1-N-D F-R-UW1-T


i think i was truly curious how this might taste.

AY1 TH-IH1-NG K-AY1 W-AA1-Z T-R-UW1 L-IY0 K-Y-UH1 R-IY0 AH0-S HH-AW1 DH-IH1 S-M-AY1-T T-EY1-S-T


garnished with some greens, some watercress.

G-AA1-R N-IH0-SH T-W-IH1-DH S-AH1-M G-R-IY1-N-Z S-AH1 M-W-AO1 T-ER0 K-R-EH2-S


how was it all going to come together? so the curiosity-

HH-AW1 W-AA1 Z-IH1 T-AO1-L G-OW1 IH0-NG T-UW1 K-AH1-M T-AH0 G-EH1 DH-ER0 S-OW1 DH-AH0 K-Y-UH2 R-IY0 AA1 S-AH0 T-IY0


so it seemed like the perfect opportunity, and as you may have already said, we-

S-OW1 IH1-T S-IY1-M D-L-AY1-K DH-AH0 P-ER1 F-IH2-K T-AA2 P-ER0 T-UW1 N-AH0 T-IY0 AH0-N D-AE1 Z-Y-UW1 M-EY1 HH-AE1 V-AO0-L R-EH1 D-IY0 S-EH1 D-W-IY1


we served this fruit salad at an event here at the newberry.

W-IY1 S-ER1-V-D DH-IH1-S F-R-UW1-T S-AE1 L-AH0 D-AE1 T-AE1 N-IH0 V-EH1-N-T HH-IY1 R-AE1-T DH-AH0 N-UW1 B-EH2 R-IY0


i went back to the silver tray and it had disappeared. it was a surprise to me because it's an unusual taste, certainly like nothing i'd ever tasted before.

AY1 W-EH1-N-T B-AE1-K T-UW1 DH-AH0 S-IH1-L V-ER0 T-R-EY1 AH0-N D-IH1-T HH-AE1-D D-IH2 S-AH0 P-IH1-R D-IH1 T-W-AA1 Z-AH0 S-ER0 P-R-AY1-Z T-UW1 M-IY1 B-IH0 K-AO1 Z-IH1-T S-AE1 N-AH0 N-Y-UW1 ZH-AH0 W-AH0-L T-EY1-S-T S-ER1 T-AH0 N-L-IY0 L-AY1 K-N-AH1 TH-IH0 NG-IH1 D-EH1 V-ER0 T-EY1-S T-AH0-D B-IH0 F-AO1-R


we also did serve some of this here at the newbury to staff members, and we got some of their reactions on tape, which we're going to play for you right now.

W-IY1 AO1-L S-OW0 D-IH1-D S-ER1-V S-AH1 M-AH1-V DH-IH1-S HH-IY1 R-AE1-T DH-AH0 N-UW1 B-EH2 R-IY0 T-UW1-S T-AE1 F-M-EH1-M B-ER0 Z-AH0-N D-W-IY1 G-AA1-T S-AH1 M-AH1-V DH-EH1-R R-IY0 AE1-K SH-AH0-N Z-AA1-N T-EY1 P-W-IH1 CH-W-ER0 G-OW1 IH0-NG T-UW1 P-L-EY1 F-AO1 R-Y-UW1 R-AY1 T-N-AW1


the moment of truth. what did you think of the fruit salad?

DH-AH0 M-OW1 M-AH0-N T-AH1-V T-R-UW1 TH-W-AH1-T D-IH1 D-Y-UW1 TH-IH1-NG K-AH1-V DH-AH0 F-R-UW1-T S-AE1 L-AH0-D


not delicious, but held my interest.

N-AA1-T D-IH0 L-IH1 SH-AH0-S B-AH1-T HH-EH1-L D-M-AY1 IH1-N T-R-AH0-S-T


i'll be honest. the best bites were the ones with the maraschino cherries.i agree.

IH1-L B-IY1 AA1 N-AH0-S-T DH-AH0 B-EH1-S-T B-AY1-T S-W-ER0 DH-AH0 W-AH1-N Z-W-IH1-DH DH-AH0 M-AE2 R-AH0-S K-IY1 N-OW0 CH-EH0 R-IY1 S-IY0 AH0 G-R-IY1


[inaudible 00:01:49] i was like, "aha. this is the taste."

IH0 N-AO1 D-AH0 B-AH0-L Z-IH1 R-OW0 AW1 ER0 Z-W-AH1-N M-IH1 N-AH0 T-AH0-N-D F-AO1-R T-IY0 N-AY1-N S-EH1 K-AH0-N-D Z-AY1 W-AA1 Z-L-AY1 K-AA2 HH-AA1 DH-IH1 S-IH1-Z DH-AH0 T-EY1-S-T


but-very cold, very crisp.an hour after it had been sitting on the tray, not so much.when you just mentioned-

B-AH1 T-ER0 IY0 K-OW1-L-D V-EH1 R-IY0 K-R-IH1-S P-AH0 N-AW1 ER0 AE1-F T-ER0 IH1-T HH-AE1-D B-IH1-N S-IH1 T-IH0 NG-AA1-N DH-AH0 T-R-EY1 N-AA1-T S-OW1 M-AH1 CH-W-AH0 N-Y-UW1 JH-AH1-S T-M-EH1-N SH-AH0-N-D


that by the end of this event that you attended it here at the newberry that you-

DH-AE1-T B-AY1 DH-AH0 EH1-N D-AH1-V DH-IH1 S-IH0 V-EH1-N-T DH-AE1 T-Y-UW1 AH0 T-EH1-N D-AH0 D-IH1-T HH-IY1 R-AE1-T DH-AH0 N-UW1 B-EH2 R-IY0 DH-AE1 T-Y-UW1


had gone, i was like "were some of those people really coming in at the end and like, 'oh,

HH-AE1-D G-AO1 N-AY1 W-AA1 Z-L-AY1 K-W-ER0 S-AH1 M-AH1-V DH-OW1-Z P-IY1 P-AH0-L R-IH1 L-IY0 K-AH1 M-IH0 NG-IH0 N-AE1-T DH-AH0 EH1-N D-AH0-N D-L-AY1 K-OW1


hey, it's like a room temperature, fruit salad made-

HH-EY1 IH1-T S-L-AY1 K-AH0 R-UW1-M T-EH1-M P-R-AH0 CH-ER0 F-R-UW1-T S-AE1 L-AH0 D-M-EY1-D


this is not a dessert that you eat without attention to it.

DH-IH1 S-IH1 Z-N-AA1 T-AH0 D-IH0 Z-ER1-T DH-AE1 T-Y-UW1 IY1 T-W-IH0 TH-AW1 T-AH0 T-EH1-N SH-AH0-N T-UW1 IH1-T


daughter, nora brooks blakely who's wonderful and i asked her about this fruit salad-

D-AO1 T-ER0 N-AO1 R-AH0 B-R-UH1-K-S B-L-EY1 K-L-IY0 HH-UW1 Z-W-AH1-N D-ER0 F-AH0 L-AH0-N D-AY1 AE1-S-K-T HH-ER0 AH0 B-AW1-T DH-IH1-S F-R-UW1-T S-AE1 L-AH0-D


recipe and she remembered it very well. it was something, it was a treat and she remembers it very fondly. and she said-

R-EH1 S-AH0 P-IY0 AH0-N-D SH-IY1 R-IH0 M-EH1-M B-ER0 D-IH1-T V-EH1 R-IY0 W-EH1 L-IH1 T-W-AA1-Z S-AH1-M TH-IH0 NG-IH1 T-W-AA1 Z-AH0 T-R-IY1 T-AH0-N-D SH-IY1 R-IH0 M-EH1-M B-ER0 Z-IH1-T V-EH1 R-IY0 F-AA1-N D-L-IY0 AH0-N-D SH-IY1 S-EH1-D


she said to me that the cooking in her family always had a kind of-

SH-IY1 S-EH1-D T-UW1 M-IY1 DH-AE1-T DH-AH0 K-UH1 K-IH0 NG-IH0-N HH-ER0 F-AE1 M-AH0 L-IY0 AO1 L-W-EY2-Z HH-AE1 D-AH0 K-AY1-N D-AH1-V


they cooked some classic dishes, but always added something kind of extra-

DH-EY1 K-UH1-K-T S-AH1-M K-L-AE1 S-IH0-K D-IH1 SH-AH0-Z B-AH1 T-AO1 L-W-EY2 Z-AE1 D-AH0-D S-AH1-M TH-IH0-NG K-AY1-N D-AH1 V-EH1-K-S T-R-AH0


special, she was talking about, was it a tuna casserole or chicken casserole? now i can't remember. but she remembers adding cornflakes to the casserole too, or potato chips. that's what it was. it was potato-

S-P-EH1 SH-AH0-L SH-IY1 W-AA1-Z T-AO1 K-IH0 NG-AH0 B-AW1 T-W-AA1 Z-IH1 T-AH0 T-UW1 N-AH0 K-AE1 S-ER0 OW2 L-AO1-R CH-IH1 K-AH0-N K-AE1 S-ER0 OW2-L N-AW1 AY1 K-AE1-N T-R-IH0 M-EH1-M B-ER0 B-AH1-T SH-IY1 R-IH0 M-EH1-M B-ER0 Z-AE1 D-IH0-NG K-AO1-R-N F-L-AE2-K-S T-UW1 DH-AH0 K-AE1 S-ER0 OW2-L T-UW1 AO1-R P-AH0 T-EY1 T-OW2 CH-IH1-P-S TH-AE1-T S-W-AH1 T-IH1 T-W-AA1 Z-IH1 T-W-AA1-Z P-AH0 T-EY1 T-OW2


chips, not corn flakes. so, you know, fossum-a little crunch.yeah, exactly., exactly.

CH-IH1-P S-N-AA1-T K-AO1-R-N F-L-EY1-K-S S-OW1 Y-UW1 N-OW1 F-OW0 S-UW1 M-AH0 L-IH1 T-AH0-L K-R-AH1-N CH-IY0 AH0 IH0-G Z-AE1-K T-L-IY0 IH0-G Z-AE1-K T-L-IY0


well, thank you so much for talking to us today about gwendolyn brooks-thank you.about your opinions of frozen fruit salad. okay, thanks.thank you.

W-EH1-L TH-AE1-NG K-Y-UW1 S-OW1 M-AH1-CH F-AO1-R T-AO1 K-IH0-NG T-UW1 AH1-S T-AH0 D-EY1 AH0 B-AW1-T G-W-EH1-N D-AH0 L-IH0-N B-R-UH1-K SH-AE2-NG K-Y-AW2 Y-UW1 B-AW2 T-Y-AO1 R-AH0 P-IH1 N-Y-AH0-N Z-AH1-V F-R-OW1 Z-AH0-N F-R-UW1-T S-AE1 L-AH0 D-OW2 K-EY1 TH-AE1-NG-K-S T-AE2 K-Y-UW1


blend where it gets used very differently and it does resemble in some ways english secretary hand, but can you talk now a little bit about how it-

B-L-EH1-N D-W-EH1 R-IH1-T G-EH1-T S-Y-UW1-Z-D V-EH1 R-IY0 D-IH1 F-R-AH0-N T-L-IY0 AH0-N D-IH1-T D-AH1 Z-R-IH0 Z-EH1-M B-AH0 L-IH0-N S-AH1 M-W-EY1 Z-IH1-NG G-L-IH0-SH S-EH1 K-R-AH0 T-EH2 R-IY0 HH-AE1-N-D B-AH1-T K-AE1 N-Y-UW1 T-AO1 K-N-AW1 AH0 L-IH1 T-AH0-L B-IH1 T-AH0 B-AW1-T HH-AW1 IH1-T


and for being here at the newberry this week?thank you very much-

AH0-N-D F-AO1-R B-IY1 IH0-NG HH-IY1 R-AE1-T DH-AH0 N-UW1 B-EH2 R-IY0 DH-IH1 S-W-IY1-K TH-AE2-NG K-Y-UW1 V-EH1 R-IY0 M-AH1-CH


his arguments in a way that would resonate with a larger audience.

HH-IH1 Z-AA1-R G-Y-AH0 M-AH0-N-T S-IH0 N-AH0 W-EY1 DH-AE1 T-W-UH1 D-R-EH1 Z-AH0 N-EY2 T-W-IH1 DH-AH0 L-AA1-R JH-ER0 AA1 D-IY0 AH0-N-S


they were so poignant and really drove home some things that would be important for him-

DH-EY1 W-ER0 S-OW1 P-OY1 N-Y-AH0-N T-AH0-N D-R-IH1 L-IY0 D-R-OW1-V HH-OW1-M S-AH1-M TH-IH1-NG-Z DH-AE1 T-W-UH1-D B-IY1 IH0-M P-AO1-R T-AH0-N-T F-AO1-R HH-IH1-M


later, such as the idea that it was impossible for people to merit salvation or that the pope was responsible for the practice of indulgences.

L-EY1 T-ER0 S-AH1 CH-AE1-Z DH-AH0 AY0 D-IY1 AH0 DH-AE1 T-IH1 T-W-AA1 Z-IH0-M P-AA1 S-AH0 B-AH0-L F-AO1-R P-IY1 P-AH0-L T-UW1 M-EH1 R-AH0-T S-AE0-L V-EY1 SH-AH0 N-AO1-R DH-AE1-T DH-AH0 P-OW1 P-W-AA1 Z-R-IY0-S P-AA1-N S-AH0 B-AH0-L F-AO1-R DH-AH0 P-R-AE1-K T-AH0 S-AH1 V-IH0-N D-AH1-L JH-AH0-N S-AH0-Z


it really sets up that later antagonism between himself and the papacy right away.

IH1 T-R-IH1 L-IY0 S-EH1-T S-AH1-P DH-AE1 T-L-EY1 T-ER0 AE0-N T-AE1 G-AH0 N-IH2 Z-AH0-M B-IH0 T-W-IY1-N HH-IH0-M S-EH1-L F-AH0-N-D DH-AH0 P-EY1 P-AH0 S-IY0 R-AY1 T-AH0 W-EY1


i think of the 95 theses directly referred to the pope and his power. so there are things that people would have really noticed about the-

AY1 TH-IH1-NG K-AH1-V DH-AH0 N-AY1-N T-IY0 F-AY1-V TH-IY1 S-IY0-Z D-ER0 EH1-K T-L-IY0 R-AH0 F-ER1-D T-UW1 DH-AH0 P-OW1 P-AH0-N-D HH-IH1-Z P-AW1 ER0 S-OW1 DH-EH1 R-AA1-R TH-IH1-NG-Z DH-AE1-T P-IY1 P-AH0 L-W-UH1-D HH-AE1 V-R-IH1 L-IY0 N-OW1 T-AH0-S T-AH0 B-AW1-T DH-AH0


this listicle, as you call them, so it was a fairly common practice in a fairly limited context-

DH-IH1 S-L-IH1-S T-IH0 K-AH0 L-AE1 Z-Y-UW1 K-AO1-L DH-EH1-M S-OW1 IH1 T-W-AA1 Z-AH0 F-EH1-R L-IY0 K-AA1 M-AH0-N P-R-AE1-K T-AH0 S-IH0 N-AH0 F-EH1-R L-IY0 L-IH1 M-AH0 T-AH0-D K-AA1-N T-EH0-K-S-T


but what luther did rather unwinningly was open it up to a much wider audience.

B-AH1 T-W-AH1 T-L-UW1 TH-ER0 D-IH1 D-R-AE1 DH-ER0 AH0 N-W-IH1-N JH-IH0 N-L-IY0 W-AA1 Z-OW1 P-AH0 N-IH1 T-AH1-P T-UW1 AH0 M-AH1 CH-W-AY1 D-ER0 AA1 D-IY0 AH0-N-S


and this is what we see happening as they started to circulate. even places that didn't have universities, were reprinting them and distributing them.

AH0-N-D DH-IH1 S-IH1 Z-W-AH1 T-W-IY1 S-IY1 HH-AE1 P-AH0 N-IH0 NG-AE1-Z DH-EY1-S T-AA1-R T-AH0-D T-UW1 S-ER1 K-Y-AH0 L-EY2 T-IY1 V-IH0-N P-L-EY1 S-AH0-Z DH-AE1-T D-IH1 D-AH0-N-T HH-AE1 V-Y-UW2 N-AH0 V-ER1 S-AH0 T-IY0 Z-W-ER0 R-IY0 P-R-IH1-N T-IH0-NG DH-EH1 M-AH0-N-D D-IH0-S T-R-IH1 B-Y-UW0 T-IH0-NG DH-EH1-M


yeah. i like the theses that are the particularly incendiary ones.

Y-AE1 AY1 L-AY1-K DH-AH0 TH-IY1 S-IY0-Z DH-AE1 T-AA1-R DH-AH0 P-AA2-R T-IH1 K-Y-AH0 L-ER0 L-IY0 IH0-N S-EH1-N D-IY0 EH0 R-IY0 W-AH1-N-Z


i mean, some of them are just sort of your basic academic point that you just sort of pass over.

AY1 M-IY1-N S-AH1 M-AH1-V DH-EH1 M-AA1-R JH-AH1-S-T S-AO1-R T-AH1 V-Y-AO1-R B-EY1 S-IH0 K-AE2 K-AH0 D-EH1 M-IH0-K P-OY1-N-T DH-AE1 T-Y-UW1 JH-AH1-S-T S-AO1-R T-AH1-V P-AE1 S-OW1 V-ER0


but some of them really get to the heart of what luther's concerns are. so for instance, thesis, number 32-

B-AH1-T S-AH1 M-AH1-V DH-EH1 M-R-IH1 L-IY0 G-EH1-T T-UW1 DH-AH0 HH-AA1-R T-AH1 V-W-AH1 T-L-AH1 DH-ER0-Z K-AH0-N S-ER1-N Z-AA1-R S-OW1 F-AO1 R-IH1-N-S T-AH0-N-S TH-IY1 S-AH0 S-N-AH1-M B-ER0 TH-ER1 D-IY0 T-UW1


which says "those who believe that they can be certain of their salvation because they have indulgence letters will be eternally damned together with their teachers." so right away-

W-IH1-CH S-EH1-Z DH-OW1-Z HH-UW1 B-IH0 L-IY1-V DH-AE1-T DH-EY1 K-AE1-N B-IY1 S-ER1 T-AH0 N-AH1-V DH-EH1-R S-AE0-L V-EY1 SH-AH0-N B-IH0 K-AO1-Z DH-EY1 HH-AE1 V-IH0-N D-AH1-L JH-AH0-N S-L-EH1 T-ER0 Z-W-IH1-L B-IY1 IH0 T-ER1 N-AH0 L-IY0 D-AE1-M-D T-AH0 G-EH1 DH-ER0 W-IH1-DH DH-EH1-R T-IY1 CH-ER0-Z S-OW1 R-AY1 T-AH0 W-EY1


you see luther really bringing out the stakes and in a way that you can't have a neutral position on that.

Y-UW1 S-IY1 L-UW1 TH-ER0 R-IH1 L-IY0 B-R-IH1 NG-IH0 NG-AW1-T DH-AH0-S T-EY1-K S-AH0-N D-IH0 N-AH0 W-EY1 DH-AE1 T-Y-UW1 K-AE1-N-T HH-AE1 V-AH0 N-UW1 T-R-AH0-L P-AH0 Z-IH1 SH-AH0 N-AA1-N DH-AE1-T


this is something that's going to elicit some sort of reaction from anybody who comes across it.

DH-IH1 S-IH1-Z S-AH1-M TH-IH0-NG TH-AE1-T-S G-OW1 IH0-NG T-UW1 IH0 L-IH1 S-IH0-T S-AH1-M S-AO1-R T-AH1 V-R-IY0 AE1-K SH-AH0-N F-R-AH1 M-EH1 N-IY0 B-AH0 D-IY0 HH-UW1 K-AH1-M Z-AH0 K-R-AO1 S-IH1-T


yeah. that's that seems quite inflammatory. it's saying not-

Y-AE1 TH-AE1-T-S DH-AE1-T S-IY1-M-Z K-W-AY1 T-IH0-N F-L-AE1 M-AH0 T-AO2 R-IY0 IH1-T-S S-EY1 IH0-NG N-AA1-T


he's surprised by the expansive reach that his ideas had because he just didn't think that his ideas could appeal to a large-

HH-IY1-Z S-ER0 P-R-AY1-Z-D B-AY1 DH-AH0 IH0-K-S P-AE1-N S-IH0 V-R-IY1-CH DH-AE1-T HH-IH1 Z-AY0 D-IY1 AH0-Z HH-AE1-D B-IH0 K-AO1-Z HH-IY1 JH-AH1-S-T D-IH1 D-AH0-N-T TH-IH1-NG-K DH-AE1-T HH-IH1 Z-AY0 D-IY1 AH0-Z K-UH1 D-AH0 P-IY1-L T-UW1 AH0 L-AA1-R-JH


anticipating a formal trial before some sort of church council, but before that actually happens-

AE0-N T-IH1 S-AH0 P-EY2 T-IH0 NG-AH0 F-AO1-R M-AH0-L T-R-AY1 AH0-L B-IH0 F-AO1-R S-AH1-M S-AO1-R T-AH1-V CH-ER1-CH K-AW1-N S-AH0-L B-AH1-T B-IH0 F-AO1-R DH-AE1 T-AE1-K CH-AH0 W-AH0 L-IY0 HH-AE1 P-AH0-N-Z


chris fletcher is the mellon major projects fellow at the newberry and a key contributor to our recently launched project, religious change 1450 to 1700.

K-R-IH1-S F-L-EH1 CH-ER0 IH1-Z DH-AH0 M-EH1 L-AH0-N M-EY1 JH-ER0 P-R-AA1 JH-EH0-K-T-S F-EH1 L-OW0 AE1-T DH-AH0 N-UW1 B-EH2 R-IY0 AH0-N D-AH0 K-IY1 K-AH0-N T-R-IH1 B-Y-AH0 T-ER0 T-UW1 AW1 ER0 R-IY1 S-AH0-N T-L-IY0 L-AO1-N-CH-T P-R-AA1 JH-EH0-K T-R-IH0 L-IH1 JH-AH0-S CH-EY1-N-JH F-AO1-R T-IY1-N F-IH1-F T-IY0 T-UW1 S-EH1 V-AH0-N T-IY1-N HH-AH1-N D-R-AH0-D


but most of the time when we tell stories about the past-

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so you're approaching the topic from a more radical museum studies perspective. so to start off our conversation-

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and the museum has just opened an exhibit, that'll be up through july. tell us about that.

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and i think so. i mean, historians, present company excluded,

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of course, have also been as guilty as museums of sort of not telling the complete-

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core of wonderful every day public housing residents, who've been trained in the ethics, the media technology of oral history.

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and they go out and get the oral histories for us.

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you know, both here in chicago and also around the country and people like [temile 00:06:54] black came in the legendary south side-

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of the museum is to of course ground our methods in the individual stories and to rely on empathy.

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but what we want to do is really be a catalyst for people to become engaged-

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citizens of this world, and to really feel like we actually have to rethink housing policy in our country.

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it's one of the most dire issues that we're facing as a people, and we can't just leave it to other people to do it.

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so all of the things, this conversation-

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that we've just been having is from laws on the wall to using these built spaces within the museum space-

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the museum that was once a public housing building to tell stories, and i'm curious, lisa, if you could just elaborate a little bit. earlier, you were talking about the museum as a catalyst for-

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citizens like taking interest about policy-making into their own hands.

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what other methodologies besides just exhibits are people coming to the museum? like how else-

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do you think that museums can do that maybe through bringing people together-

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using the physical space, but also creating communities kind of outside of that-

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great to be here at the newberry library, once beautiful place in the world.

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do you think that that's part of why it resonated so much is the identifiable character or the texture, or was it something bigger that you didn't really understand when you first saw it?

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or people share that opinion with you, lovable rogue, as some people refer to him. so you mentioned that it-

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hmm. interesting. so you think, so did campbell theory of the monomyth emerge before star wars?yes.the initial film?

HH-AH1 M-IH1-N T-R-AH0-S T-IH0-NG S-OW1 Y-UW1 TH-IH1-NG-K S-OW1 D-IH1-D K-AE1-M B-AH0-L TH-IH1 R-IY0 AH1-V DH-AH0 M-AA1 N-AH0 M-IH0 TH-IH0 M-ER1-JH B-IH0 F-AO1-R-S T-AA1 R-W-AO1-R S-IH0 SH-IH2 T-IH0 N-IH1 SH-AH0-L F-IH1-L-M


yeah. interesting. you also mentioned in the ... when we were just discussing-

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just campbell in general, the story of moses.

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sort of a relationship to truth and faith. and i think it's a really interesting way of thinking about mythology is-

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is like trust mythology and how much does it actually reveal about-

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the way we see the world and what is the nature of truth and myth? and so like with star wars, for example, a lot of people see it as-

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storytelling in general, as a way to reveal truths about the world.

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why do you think we should be taking it seriously? and why should we be thinking about it in terms of mythology and religion?yeah, that's-

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there'll be no smearing [crosstalk 00:09:42] of han solo's name on this podcast.

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is the one who was directing the battle at the death star-that's right.in episode 4, a new hope.

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it's very interesting. so, are there any other character parallels to the reformation and star wars?

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there's also a kind of alternative reading. we could suggest that-

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they have their own academy where they train young acolytes. they have the jedi archives-

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the jedi of run amok they're corrupt-

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... and i think that star wars is a great case study for charting the push and pull between governments-

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in the prequels, would you say palpatine is more of the catholic church or more luther?

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i think that one could make the argument that he's maybe more luther. i mean, it's counterintuitive...

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they renounced a lot of the pleasures of the world that were rough clothing...

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... right, yeah. and how do you think that star wars helps people today understand their place in the world?

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yeah, i think it goes back to this idea of storytelling-

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star wars, like all myth-making, speaks to the trials and tribulations of the human condition.

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i think, again, that's what makes it timeless and universal-

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it addresses the obstacles that we all face, you know, the journey of self-realization,-

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it's really a great...


a great guide, i think, to how one should...

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my first question today is what exactly is limp parchment? and what's so interesting about it?well,

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... very cool. so looking at the parchment binding means that we can-

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... maybe think about different ways that different people would be reading-

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... and make some educated guesses, like, is it french, italian, spanish? and so that gave me a clue that this was printed in lyon.

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so yeah, there's some little peculiarities that make it french. they do reinforce the spine of the book a little bit with an extra sheet of parchment. and i'm still-

S-OW1 Y-AE1 DH-EH1-R-Z S-AH1 M-L-IH1 T-AH0-L P-IH0 K-Y-UW2 L-IY0 EH1 R-AH0 T-IY0-Z DH-AE1 T-M-EY1 K-IH1-T F-R-EH1-N-CH DH-EY1 D-UW1 R-IY2 IH0-N F-AO1-R-S DH-AH0-S P-AY1 N-AH1-V DH-AH0 B-UH1 K-AH0 L-IH1 T-AH0-L B-IH1 T-W-IH1 DH-AE1 N-EH1-K-S T-R-AH0 SH-IY1 T-AH1-V P-AA1-R CH-M-AH0-N T-AH0-N D-IH1-M-S T-IH1-L


... the covers themselves are not stiffened by card or anything else. but inside was wonderful, because i opened it and i immediately recognized latin.

DH-AH0 K-AH1 V-ER0-Z DH-EH0-M S-EH1-L-V Z-AA1-R N-AA1-T-S T-IH1 F-AH0-N-D B-AY1 K-AA1-R D-AO1 R-EH1 N-IY0 TH-IH2 NG-EH1-L-S B-AH1 T-IH0-N S-AY1 D-W-AA1 Z-W-AH1-N D-ER0 F-AH0-L B-IH0 K-AO1 Z-AY1 OW1 P-AH0-N D-IH1 T-AH0-N D-AY1 IH0 M-IY1 D-IY0 AH0 T-L-IY0 R-EH1 K-AH0 G-N-AY2-Z D-L-AE1 T-AH0-N


... when you open the book, that's not printed on...

W-EH1 N-Y-UW1 OW1 P-AH0-N DH-AH0 B-UH1-K TH-AE1-T S-N-AA1-T P-R-IH1-N T-AH0 D-AA1-N


there are probably five or six different styles in handwriting, colors of ink...

DH-EH1 R-AA1-R P-R-AA1 B-AH0 B-L-IY0 F-AY1 V-AO1-R S-IH1-K-S D-IH1 F-ER0 AH0-N-T-S T-AY1-L Z-IH0-N HH-AE1-N D-R-AY2 T-IH0-NG K-AH1 L-ER0 Z-AH1 V-IH1-NG-K


and it was very exciting to read the names in this book. so this book has provided-

AH0-N D-IH1 T-W-AA1-Z V-EH1 R-IY0 IH0-K S-AY1 T-IH0-NG T-UW1 R-EH1-D DH-AH0 N-EY1-M Z-IH0-N DH-IH1-S B-UH1-K S-OW1 DH-IH1-S B-UH1-K HH-AE1-Z P-R-AH0 V-AY1 D-AH0-D


... some of its history. that there was a guy named jerome, who was the son of joseph...

S-AH1 M-AH1 V-IH1-T-S HH-IH1-S T-ER0 IY0 DH-AE1-T DH-EH1 R-W-AA1 Z-AH0 G-AY1 N-EY1-M-D JH-ER0 OW1-M HH-UW1 W-AA1-Z DH-AH0 S-AH1 N-AH1-V JH-OW1 S-AH0-F


he says, this is my book - hic liber est meus.

HH-IY1 S-EH1-Z DH-IH1 S-IH1 Z-M-AY1 B-UH1-K HH-IH1 K-L-AY1 B-ER0 AH0-S T-EY1 T-M-UW1-S


a bunch of notes in here that say [foreign language 00:07:26] which italian would be questo libro. if i was writing that in italian,-

AH0 B-AH1-N CH-AH1 V-N-OW1-T S-IH0-N HH-IY1-R DH-AE1-T S-EY1 F-AO1 R-AH0 N-L-AE1-NG G-W-AH0-JH Z-IH1 R-OW0 AW1 ER0-Z S-EH1 V-AH0-N M-IH1 N-AH0-T S-AH0-N-D T-W-EH1-N T-IY0 S-IH1-K-S S-EH1 K-AH0-N-D Z-W-IH1 CH-IH0 T-AE1 L-Y-AH0 N-W-UH1-D B-IY1 K-W-EH1-S T-OW0 L-AY1 B-R-OW0 IH1 F-AY1 W-AA1 Z-R-AY1 T-IH0-NG DH-AE1 T-IH0 N-IH0 T-AE1 L-Y-AH0-N


... i would say questo libro, this book is blah, blah, blah.

AY1 W-UH1-D S-EY1 K-W-EH1-S T-OW0 L-AY1 B-R-OW0 DH-IH1-S B-UH1 K-IH1-Z B-L-AA1 B-L-AA1 B-L-AA1


but this says questu, [inaudible 00:07:39] with a u at the end. and that is very southern italian.

B-AH1-T DH-IH1-S S-EH1-Z K-W-EH1-S T-UW0 IH0 N-AO1 D-AH0 B-AH0-L Z-IH1 R-OW0 AW1 ER0-Z S-EH1 V-AH0-N M-IH1 N-AH0-T S-AH0-N-D TH-ER1 D-IY0 N-AY1-N S-EH1 K-AH0-N-D Z-W-IH1 DH-AH0 Y-UW1 AE1-T DH-AH0 EH1-N D-AH0-N-D DH-AE1 T-IH1-Z V-EH1 R-IY0 S-AH1 DH-ER0 N-IH0 T-AE1 L-Y-AH0-N


... was being written in his possession-

W-AA1-Z B-IY1 IH0 NG-R-IH1 T-AH0 N-IH0-N HH-IH1-Z P-AH0 Z-EH1 SH-AH0-N


... notes that indicate who's owning this book over time.

N-OW1-T-S DH-AE1 T-IH1-N D-AH0 K-EY2-T HH-UW1 Z-OW1 N-IH0-NG DH-IH1-S B-UH1 K-OW1 V-ER0 T-AY1-M


that tells me that this book was printed in lyon and bound in lyon-

DH-AE1-T T-EH1-L Z-M-IY1 DH-AE1-T DH-IH1-S B-UH1 K-W-AA1-Z P-R-IH1-N T-AH0 D-IH0 N-L-AY1 AH0 N-AH0-N-D B-AW1-N D-IH0 N-L-AY1 AH0-N


... and made its way all the way to southern italy, which is pretty cool. and so,-

AH0-N D-M-EY1 D-IH1-T S-W-EY1 AO1-L DH-AH0 W-EY1 T-UW1 S-AH1 DH-ER0 N-IH1 T-AH0 L-IY0 W-IH1 CH-IH1-Z P-R-IH1 T-IY0 K-UW1 L-AH0-N-D S-OW1


... this was a great example. also looking at the contents of the book, which are...

DH-IH1 S-W-AA1 Z-AH0 G-R-EY1 T-IH0-G Z-AE1-M P-AH0 L-AO1-L S-OW0 L-UH1 K-IH0 NG-AE1-T DH-AH0 K-AA1-N T-EH0-N-T S-AH1-V DH-AH0 B-UH1 K-W-IH1 CH-AA1-R


this book is not used in a liturgical service,-

DH-IH1-S B-UH1 K-IH1 Z-N-AA1 T-Y-UW1-Z D-IH0 N-AH0 L-AH0 T-ER1 JH-IH0 K-AH0-L S-ER1 V-AH0-S


... it's a small, portable book. but it gives the stories of lazarus and his sisters,-

IH1-T S-AH0 S-M-AO1-L P-AO1-R T-AH0 B-AH0-L B-UH1-K B-AH1 T-IH1-T G-IH1-V-Z DH-AH0-S T-AO1 R-IY0 Z-AH1 V-L-AE1 Z-ER0 AH0 S-AH0-N-D HH-IH1-Z S-IH1-S T-ER0-Z


... martha and mary. and so i know that this is like a tiny devotional book, somebody that was interested in this, to read devotionally.

M-AA1-R TH-AH0 AH0-N D-M-EH1 R-IY0 AH0-N-D S-OW1 AY1 N-OW1 DH-AE1-T DH-IH1 S-IH1 Z-L-AY1 K-AH0 T-AY1 N-IY0 D-IH0 V-OW1 SH-AH0 N-AH0-L B-UH1-K S-AH1-M B-AA2 D-IY0 DH-AE1 T-W-AA1 Z-IH1-N T-R-AH0-S T-AH0 D-IH0-N DH-IH1-S T-UW1 R-EH1-D D-IH0 V-OW1 SH-AH0 N-AH0 L-IY0


and so jerome son of joseph, you know, wherever he is [inaudible 00:08:41] -

AH0-N-D S-OW1 JH-ER0 OW1-M S-AH1 N-AH1-V JH-OW1 S-AH0 F-Y-UW1 N-OW1 W-EH0 R-EH1 V-ER0 HH-IY1 IH1 Z-IH0 N-AO1 D-AH0 B-AH0-L Z-IH1 R-OW0 AW1 ER0 Z-EY1 T-M-IH1 N-AH0-T S-AH0-N-D F-AO1-R T-IY0 W-AH1-N S-EH1 K-AH0-N-D


... was reading this book and telling us, this is my book.

W-AA1 Z-R-EH1 D-IH0-NG DH-IH1-S B-UH1 K-AH0-N-D T-EH1 L-IH0 NG-AH1-S DH-IH1 S-IH1 Z-M-AY1 B-UH1-K


another cool inscription in here is the librarian, the 16th century librarian. he says...

AH0 N-AH1 DH-ER0 K-UW1 L-IH0-N-S K-R-IH1-P SH-AH0 N-IH0-N HH-IY1 R-IH1-Z DH-AH0 L-AY0 B-R-EH1 R-IY0 AH0-N DH-AH0 S-IH0-K-S T-IY1-N-TH S-EH1-N CH-ER0 IY0 L-AY0 B-R-EH1 R-IY0 AH0-N HH-IY1 S-EH1-Z


... yes, that's an italian. he says on the 9th of november-

Y-EH1-S TH-AE1-T S-AE1 N-IH0 T-AE1 L-Y-AH0-N HH-IY1 S-EH1 Z-AA1-N DH-AH0 N-AY1-N TH-AH1 V-N-OW0 V-EH1-M B-ER0


... that he wrote in this book, he marked it as we do in our library he names himself, loren...

DH-AE1-T HH-IY1 R-OW1 T-IH0-N DH-IH1-S B-UH1-K HH-IY1 M-AA1-R-K T-IH1 T-AE1 Z-W-IY1 D-UW1 IH0 N-AW1 ER0 L-AY1 B-R-EH2 R-IY0 HH-IY1 N-EY1-M-Z HH-IH0-M S-EH1-L F-L-AO1 R-AH0-N


he says, i'm lorenzo mcgauna and he names-

HH-IY1 S-EH1 Z-IH1 M-L-ER0 EH1-N Z-OW0 M-AH0 G-AA1 N-AH0 AH0-N-D HH-IY1 N-EY1-M-Z


... another person, a notary who's working with him. and we mark-

AH0 N-AH1 DH-ER0 P-ER1 S-AH0 N-AH0 N-OW1 T-ER0 IY0 HH-UW1 Z-W-ER1 K-IH0 NG-W-IH1-DH HH-IH1 M-AH0-N D-W-IY1 M-AA1-R-K


... this book as we do in our library with the [foreign language 00:09:22].

DH-IH1-S B-UH1 K-AE1 Z-W-IY1 D-UW1 IH0 N-AW1 ER0 L-AY1 B-R-EH2 R-IY0 W-IH1-DH DH-AH0 F-AO1 R-AH0 N-L-AE1-NG G-W-AH0-JH Z-IH1 R-OW0 AW1 ER0 Z-N-AY1-N M-IH1 N-AH0-T S-AH0-N-D T-W-EH1-N T-IY0 T-UW1 S-EH1 K-AH0-N-D-Z


... and i might even be able to extrapolate more information from that because-

AH0-N D-AY1 M-AY1 T-IY1 V-IH0-N B-IY1 EY1 B-AH0-L T-UW1 IH0-K-S T-R-AE1 P-AH0 L-EY2 T-M-AO1 R-IH2-N F-ER0 M-EY1 SH-AH0-N F-R-AH1-M DH-AE1-T B-IH0 K-AO1-Z


... shelf a in monastic libraries, that was the shelf that you would put all the books that you would need to read for your theological readings,-

SH-EH1-L F-AH0 IH0-N M-AH0 N-AE1-S T-IH0 K-L-AY1 B-R-EH2 R-IY0-Z DH-AE1 T-W-AA1-Z DH-AH0 SH-EH1-L-F DH-AE1 T-Y-UW1 W-UH1-D P-UH1 T-AO1-L DH-AH0 B-UH1-K-S DH-AE1 T-Y-UW1 W-UH1 D-N-IY1-D T-UW1 R-EH1-D F-AO1 R-Y-AO1-R TH-IY2 AH0 L-AA1 JH-IH0 K-AH0-L R-EH1 D-IH0-NG-Z


... you know, or your devotion reading. so today, that would...

Y-UW1 N-OW1 AO1 R-Y-AO1-R D-IH0 V-OW1 SH-AH0 N-R-EH1 D-IH0-NG S-OW1 T-AH0 D-EY1 DH-AE1 T-W-UH1-D


... and so that might give a clue. if i look more at the history of libraries, maybe this came from a monastic library.

AH0-N-D S-OW1 DH-AE1 T-M-AY1-T G-IH1 V-AH0 K-L-UW1 IH1 F-AY1 L-UH1 K-M-AO1 R-AE1-T DH-AH0 HH-IH1-S T-ER0 IY0 AH1 V-L-AY1 B-R-EH2 R-IY0 Z-M-EY1 B-IY0 DH-IH1-S K-EY1-M F-R-AH1 M-AH0 M-AH0 N-AE1-S T-IH0 K-L-AY1 B-R-EH2 R-IY0


we're a religious library. so, that would be really interesting as well.

W-ER0 AH0 R-IH0 L-IH1 JH-AH0 S-L-AY1 B-R-EH2 R-IY0 S-OW1 DH-AE1 T-W-UH1-D B-IY1 R-IH1 L-IY0 IH1-N T-R-AH0-S T-IH0 NG-AE1 Z-W-EH1-L


so, yeah, there's just, when i first look at a book and i first get it.

S-OW1 Y-AE1 DH-EH1-R-Z JH-AH1-S T-W-EH1 N-AY1 F-ER1-S T-L-UH1 K-AE1 T-AH0 B-UH1 K-AH0-N D-AY1 F-ER1-S-T G-EH1 T-IH1-T


i feel like i'm having a conversation with a 500 year old person.

AY1 F-IY1-L L-AY1 K-AY1 AE1-M HH-AE1 V-IH0 NG-AH0 K-AA2-N V-ER0 S-EY1 SH-AH0 N-W-IH1 DH-AH0 F-AY1-V HH-AH1-N D-R-AH0 D-Y-IH1 R-OW1-L-D P-ER1 S-AH0-N


and so my task is just to sit with it long enough and be informed enough about all these aspects of it, the text...

AH0-N-D S-OW1 M-AY1 T-AE1-S K-IH1-Z JH-AH1-S-T T-UW1 S-IH1 T-W-IH1 DH-IH1 T-L-AO1 NG-IH0 N-AH1 F-AH0-N-D B-IY1 IH0-N F-AO1-R-M D-IH0 N-AH1 F-AH0 B-AW1 T-AO1-L DH-IY1 Z-AE1-S P-EH2-K-T S-AH1 V-IH1-T DH-AH0 T-EH1-K-S-T


and the inscriptions and the binding and...

AH0-N-D DH-AH0 IH0-N-S K-R-IH1-P SH-AH0-N Z-AH0-N-D DH-AH0 B-AY1-N D-IH0 NG-AH0-N-D


the history of those places to really get it's full history...

DH-AH0 HH-IH1-S T-ER0 IY0 AH1-V DH-OW1-Z P-L-EY1 S-AH0-Z T-UW1 R-IH1 L-IY0 G-EH1 T-IH1-T-S F-UH1-L HH-IH1-S T-ER0 IY0


out of it. so the more things that are in the book, the more i can learn about them.yes.

AW1 T-AH1 V-IH1-T S-OW1 DH-AH0 M-AO1-R TH-IH1-NG-Z DH-AE1 T-AA1 R-IH0-N DH-AH0 B-UH1-K DH-AH0 M-AO1 R-AY1 K-AE1 N-L-ER1 N-AH0 B-AW1-T TH-EH1 M-IY0-Z


so this one has the various hands written in there?

S-OW1 DH-IH1 S-W-AH1-N HH-AE1-Z DH-AH0 V-EH1 R-IY0 AH0-S HH-AE1-N-D Z-R-IH1 T-AH0 N-IH0-N DH-EH1-R


you talked about with a classical scholar, so university,

Y-UW1 T-AO1-K T-AH0 B-AW1 T-W-IH1 DH-AH0 K-L-AE1 S-IH0 K-AH0-L-S K-AA1 L-ER0 S-OW1 Y-UW2 N-AH0 V-ER1 S-AH0 T-IY0


so all that would have not necessarily been totally separate in the time, but they're different kinds of books.

S-OW1 AO1-L DH-AE1 T-W-UH1-D HH-AE1 V-N-AA1 T-N-EH2 S-AH0 S-EH1 R-AH0 L-IY0 B-IH1-N T-OW1 T-AH0 L-IY0 S-EH1 P-ER0 IH0 T-IH0-N DH-AH0 T-AY1-M B-AH1-T TH-EH1-R D-IH1 F-ER0 AH0-N-T K-AY1-N-D Z-AH1-V B-UH1-K-S


so it's showing that lots of different kinds of books are getting printed in this...

S-OW1 IH1-T-S SH-OW1 IH0-NG DH-AE1 T-L-AA1-T S-AH1-V D-IH1 F-ER0 AH0-N-T K-AY1-N-D Z-AH1-V B-UH1-K S-AA1-R G-EH1 T-IH0-NG P-R-IH1-N T-AH0 D-IH0-N DH-IH1-S


kind of binding. right? is there anything that usually doesn't get printed in, that you haven't yet found in limp?like i [crosstalk 00:01:24] would,

K-AY1-N D-AH1-V B-AY1-N D-IH0 NG-R-AY1 T-IH1-Z DH-EH1 R-EH1 N-IY0 TH-IH2-NG DH-AE1 T-Y-UW1 ZH-AH0 W-AH0 L-IY0 D-OW1 S-AH0-N-T G-EH1-T P-R-IH1-N T-AH0 D-IH0-N DH-AE1 T-Y-UW1 HH-AE1 V-AH0-N T-Y-EH1-T F-AW1-N D-IH0 N-L-IH1-M P-L-AY2 K-AY1 K-R-AO1-S T-AO1-K Z-IH1 R-OW0 AW1 ER0 Z-W-AH1-N M-IH1 N-AH0 T-AH0-N-D T-W-EH1-N T-IY0 F-AO1-R S-EH1 K-AH0-N-D Z-W-UH1-D


is there one more book that you'd like to share with us this afternoon?

IH1-Z DH-EH1 R-W-AH1-N M-AO1-R B-UH1-K DH-AE1 T-Y-AH1 D-L-AY1-K T-UW1 SH-EH1 R-W-IH1 DH-AH1-S DH-IH1 S-AE2-F T-ER0 N-UW1-N


that's what looking at these books can tell you all kinds of information you didn't even know you were looking for. [crosstalk 00:01:36].

TH-AE1-T S-W-AH1 T-L-UH1 K-IH0 NG-AE1-T DH-IY1-Z B-UH1-K-S K-AE1-N T-EH1 L-Y-UW1 AO1-L K-AY1-N-D Z-AH1 V-IH2-N F-ER0 M-EY1 SH-AH0 N-Y-UW1 D-IH1 D-AH0-N T-IY1 V-IH0-N N-OW1 Y-UW1 W-ER0 L-UH1 K-IH0-NG F-AO1-R K-R-AO1-S T-AO1-K Z-IH1 R-OW0 AW1 ER0 Z-W-AH1-N M-IH1 N-AH0 T-AH0-N-D TH-ER1 D-IY0 S-IH1-K-S S-EH1 K-AH0-N-D-Z


if you know how to decode it.yeah.yeah.cool.well, thank you very much for talking with us.oh, thanks so much for [crosstalk 00:01:42] inviting me.completely fascinating.

IH1 F-Y-UW1 N-OW1 HH-AW1 T-UW1 D-IH0 K-OW1 D-AY2 T-IY0 OW0 V-AE1 CH-UW0 L-AH0 K-AH0-L TH-AE1-NG K-Y-UW1 V-EH1 R-IY0 M-AH1-CH F-AO1-R T-AO1 K-IH0 NG-W-IH1 DH-Y-UW1 S-OW0 TH-AE1-NG-K-S S-OW1 M-AH1-CH F-AO1-R K-R-AO1-S T-AO1-K Z-IH1 R-OW0 AW1 ER0 Z-W-AH1-N M-IH1 N-AH0 T-AH0-N-D F-AO1-R T-IY0 T-UW1 S-EH1 K-AH0-N-D Z-IH0-N V-AY1 T-IH0-NG M-IY1 D-AA1-T K-AA1-M P-L-IY1 T-AH0 L-IY0 F-AE1 S-AH0 N-EY2 T-IH0-NG


the united states.right. well, thanks.

DH-AH0 Y-UW0 N-AY1 T-AH0-D-S T-EY1-T S-R-IH0 T-W-EH1-L TH-AE1-NG-K-S


that's really exciting. and it is lovely to do it in this space.

TH-AE1-T S-R-IH1 L-IY0 IH0-K S-AY1 T-IH0 NG-AH0-N D-IH1 T-IH1 Z-L-AH1 V-L-IY0 T-UW1 D-UW1 IH1 T-IH0-N DH-IH1-S-S P-EY1-S


it's really got a great ambiance to it so...

IH1-T S-R-IH1 L-IY0 G-AA1 T-AH0 G-R-EY1 T-AE1-M B-IY0 AH0-N-S T-UW1 IH1-T S-OW1


so i want to acknowledge that we're here in the traditional territory of the potawatomi people...

S-OW1 AY1 W-AA1-N-T T-UW1 AE0 K-N-AA1 L-IH0-JH DH-AE1 T-W-ER0 HH-IY1 R-IH0-N DH-AH0 T-R-AH0 D-IH1 SH-AH0 N-AH0-L T-EH1 R-IH0 T-AO2 R-IY0 AH1-V DH-AH0 P-OW2 T-OW0 AE1-M T-W-AY1 AH0 P-IY1 P-AH0-L


the prevalence of american indian mascots in sports...

DH-AH0 P-R-EH1 V-AH0 L-AH0-N S-AH1 V-AH0 M-EH1 R-AH0 K-AH0 N-IH1-N D-IY0 AH0-N M-AE1-S K-AA2-T S-IH0-N-S P-AO1-R-T-S


is definitely a phenomenon.and it's one that we've become more self-conscious about more recently.

IH1-Z D-EH1 F-AH0 N-AH0 T-L-IY0 AH0 F-AH0 N-AA1 M-AH0 N-AH0 D-AH0-N T-IH1-T S-W-AH1-N DH-AE1 T-W-IY1-V B-IH0 K-AH1-M M-AO1-R S-AH0-L-F K-AH1-N-S K-IY0 Z-AH0 B-AW1 T-M-AO1-R R-IY1 S-AH0-N T-L-IY0


and, but i'd say that you really also need to think about the prevalence of american indian names in the military,

AH0-N-D B-AH1 T-IH1-D S-EY1 DH-AE1 T-Y-UW1 R-IH1 L-IY0 AO1-L S-OW0 N-IY1-D T-UW1 TH-IH1-NG K-AH0 B-AW1-T DH-AH0 P-R-EH1 V-AH0 L-AH0-N S-AH1 V-AH0 M-EH1 R-AH0 K-AH0 N-IH1-N D-IY0 AH0-N N-EY1-M Z-IH0-N DH-AH0 M-IH1 L-AH0 T-EH2 R-IY0


a military unit. i think a division that was called the blackhawks.

AH0 M-IH1 L-AH0 T-EH2 R-IY0 Y-UW1 N-AH0 T-AY1 TH-IH1-NG K-AH0 D-IH0 V-IH1 ZH-AH0-N DH-AE1 T-W-AA1-Z K-AO1-L-D DH-AH0 B-L-AE1-K HH-AO2-K-S


so, we not only embrace american indian individual names and tribal names for sports, but we also do it for military.

S-OW1 W-IY1 N-AA1 T-OW1 N-L-IY0 EH0-M B-R-EY1 S-AH0 M-EH1 R-AH0 K-AH0 N-IH1-N D-IY0 AH0 N-IH2-N D-AH0 V-IH1 JH-AH0 W-AH0-L N-EY1-M Z-AH0-N-D T-R-AY1 B-AH0-L N-EY1-M-Z F-AO1-R-S P-AO1-R-T-S B-AH1 T-W-IY1 AO1-L S-OW0 D-UW1 IH1-T F-AO1-R M-IH1 L-AH0 T-EH2 R-IY0


that's partly because in both instances,

TH-AE1-T-S P-AA1-R T-L-IY0 B-IH0 K-AO1 Z-IH0-N B-OW1 TH-IH1-N-S T-AH0-N S-AH0-Z


we're looking at battle, right? whether it's on the sports field or actually in the battle field,

W-ER0 L-UH1 K-IH0 NG-AE1-T B-AE1 T-AH0-L R-AY1 T-W-EH1 DH-ER0 IH1-T S-AA1-N DH-AH0-S P-AO1-R-T-S F-IY1-L D-AO1 R-AE1-K CH-AH0 W-AH0 L-IY0 IH0-N DH-AH0 B-AE1 T-AH0-L F-IY1-L-D


this important shift from being the scary savages.

DH-IH1 S-IH0-M P-AO1-R T-AH0-N-T SH-IH1-F-T F-R-AH1-M B-IY1 IH0-NG DH-AH0-S K-EH1 R-IY0 S-AE1 V-AH0 JH-AH0-Z


who are subhuman and trying to kill all of us, to being the noble savages,

HH-UW1 AA1-R S-AH2-B HH-Y-UW1 M-AH0 N-AH0-N-D T-R-AY1 IH0-NG T-UW1 K-IH1 L-AO1 L-AH1 V-AH1-S T-UW1 B-IY1 IH0-NG DH-AH0 N-OW1 B-AH0-L S-AE1 V-AH0 JH-AH0-Z


who are close to nature,

HH-UW1 AA1-R K-L-OW1-S T-UW1 N-EY1 CH-ER0


who are more pure than we are, who are,

HH-UW1 AA1-R M-AO1-R P-Y-UH1-R DH-AE1 N-W-IY1 AA1-R HH-UW1 AA1-R


who are yeah, natural environmentalist's for example, and who are known for being courageous,

HH-UW1 AA1 R-Y-AE1 N-AE1 CH-ER0 AH0 L-EH0-N V-AY1 R-AH0-N M-EH2-N T-AH0 L-IH0-S-T-S F-AO1 R-IH0-G Z-AE1-M P-AH0 L-AH0-N-D HH-UW1 AA1-R N-OW1-N F-AO1-R B-IY1 IH0-NG K-ER0 EY1 JH-AH0-S


and we'll even use the word brave and we'll say the braves. so, there really has been then a national shift that took...

AH0-N D-W-EH1 L-IY1 V-IH0 N-Y-UW1-Z DH-AH0 W-ER1-D B-R-EY1 V-AH0-N D-W-EH1-L S-EY1 DH-AH0 B-R-EY1-V-Z S-OW1 DH-EH1-R R-IH1 L-IY0 HH-AE1-Z B-IH1-N DH-EH1 N-AH0 N-AE1 SH-AH0 N-AH0-L SH-IH1-F-T DH-AE1-T T-UH1-K


are frozen in amber. right? they are the sepia toned people. i like...

AA1-R F-R-OW1 Z-AH0 N-IH0 N-AE1-M B-ER0 R-AY1-T DH-EY1 AA1-R DH-AH0 S-IY1 P-IY0 AH0 T-OW1-N-D P-IY1 P-AH0 L-AY1 L-AY1-K


to think of them as, because to this...

T-UW1 TH-IH1-NG K-AH1-V DH-EH1 M-AE1-Z B-IH0 K-AO1-Z T-UW1 DH-IH1-S


day you will have regular people in american...

D-EY1 Y-UW1 W-IH1-L HH-AE1 V-R-EH1 G-Y-AH0 L-ER0 P-IY1 P-AH0 L-IH0 N-AH0 M-EH1 R-AH0 K-AH0-N


on horseback. and that's like expecting...

AA1-N HH-AO1-R-S B-AE2 K-AH0-N-D TH-AE1-T S-L-AY1 K-IH0-K-S P-EH1-K T-IH0-NG


they don't see the disconnect there, because there's an understanding of the authenticity of american indians as being in the past.

DH-EY1 D-AA1-N-T S-IY1 DH-AH0 D-IH0-S K-AH0 N-EH1-K-T DH-EH1-R B-IH0 K-AO1-Z DH-EH1-R Z-AE1 N-AH2-N D-ER0-S T-AE1-N D-IH0 NG-AH1-V DH-AH0 AO2 TH-AH0-N T-IH1 S-IH0 T-IY0 AH1 V-AH0 M-EH1 R-AH0 K-AH0 N-IH1-N D-IY0 AH0-N Z-AE1-Z B-IY1 IH0 NG-IH0-N DH-AH0 P-AE1-S-T


that's the imagery that we get. when you see american indians in media-

TH-AE1-T-S DH-AH0 IH1 M-AH0 JH-R-IY0 DH-AE1 T-W-IY1 G-EH1 T-W-EH1 N-Y-UW1 S-IY1 AH0 M-EH1 R-AH0 K-AH0 N-IH1-N D-IY0 AH0-N Z-IH0-N M-IY1 D-IY0 AH0


they're typically in the past, so they are in period pieces.

TH-EH1-R T-IH1 P-IH0 K-L-IY0 IH0-N DH-AH0 P-AE1-S-T S-OW1 DH-EY1 AA1 R-IH0-N P-IH1 R-IY0 AH0-D P-IY1 S-AH0-Z


they are in movies, good and bad, in which they are in buckskins and riding on horses and living in teepees, so...

DH-EY1 AA1 R-IH0-N M-UW1 V-IY0-Z G-UH1 D-AH0-N-D B-AE1 D-IH0 N-W-IH1-CH DH-EY1 AA1 R-IH0-N B-AH1-K-S K-IH2-N Z-AH0-N D-R-AY1 D-IH0 NG-AA1-N HH-AO1-R S-AH0 Z-AH0-N D-L-IH1 V-IH0 NG-IH0-N T-IY1 P-IY2-Z S-OW1


so of course then, you have generations of americans who are raised thinking that-

S-OW1 AH1-V K-AO1-R-S DH-EH1 N-Y-UW1 HH-AE1-V JH-EH2 N-ER0 EY1 SH-AH0-N Z-AH1 V-AH0 M-EH1 R-AH0 K-AH0-N-Z HH-UW1 AA1-R R-EY1-Z-D TH-IH1-NG K-IH0-NG DH-AE1-T


so it's-


it's a person as a character; it's a culture as a caricature.

IH1-T S-AH0 P-ER1 S-AH0 N-AE1 Z-AH0 K-EH1 R-IH0-K T-ER0 IH1-T S-AH0 K-AH1-L CH-ER0 AE1 Z-AH0 K-EH1 R-AH0 K-AH0 CH-ER0


so-called american indians or people who go to festivals...

S-OW1 K-AA1-L D-AH0 M-EH1 R-AH0 K-AH0 N-IH1-N D-IY0 AH0-N Z-AO1-R P-IY1 P-AH0-L HH-UW1 G-OW1 T-UW1 F-EH1-S T-AH0 V-AH0-L-Z


... and wear big feather headdresses. it's cultural appropriation, and-

AH0-N D-W-EH1-R B-IH1-G F-EH1 DH-ER0 HH-EH1-D D-R-EH2 S-AH0 Z-IH1-T-S K-AH1-L CH-ER0 AH0 L-AH0 P-R-OW2 P-R-IY0 EY1 SH-AH0 N-AH0-N-D


it has become, in a lot of cases, big business. but when you get past, or if you can-

IH1-T HH-AE1-Z B-IH0 K-AH1 M-IH0 N-AH0 L-AA1 T-AH1-V K-EY1 S-AH0-Z B-IH1-G B-IH1 Z-N-AH0-S B-AH1 T-W-EH1 N-Y-UW1 G-EH1-T P-AE1-S T-AO1 R-IH1 F-Y-UW1 K-AE1-N


... just set aside the big business for a while-

JH-AH1-S-T S-EH1 T-AH0 S-AY1-D DH-AH0 B-IH1-G B-IH1 Z-N-AH0-S F-AO1 R-AH0 W-AY1-L


... it's impossible to ignore how wedded people, fans become-

IH1-T S-IH0-M P-AA1 S-AH0 B-AH0-L T-UW1 IH0 G-N-AO1-R HH-AW1 W-EH1 D-AH0-D P-IY1 P-AH0-L F-AE1-N-Z B-IH0 K-AH1-M


... to these images and to these representations. it becomes part of a shared sports culture-

T-UW1 DH-IY1 Z-IH1 M-AH0 JH-AH0 Z-AH0-N-D T-UW1 DH-IY1 Z-R-EH2 P-R-AH0 Z-AH0-N T-EY1 SH-AH0-N Z-IH1-T B-IH0 K-AH1-M-Z P-AA1-R T-AH1 V-AH0 SH-EH1-R-D-S P-AO1-R-T-S K-AH1-L CH-ER0


... shared sports traditions, shared sports rituals, right? and that could be for anything, right? they could be pretending to-

SH-EH1-R-D-S P-AO1-R-T-S T-R-AH0 D-IH1 SH-AH0-N-Z SH-EH1-R-D-S P-AO1-R-T S-R-IH1 CH-UW0 AH0-L Z-R-AY1 T-AH0-N-D DH-AE1-T K-UH1-D B-IY1 F-AO1 R-EH1 N-IY0 TH-IH2 NG-R-AY1-T DH-EY1 K-UH1-D B-IY1 P-R-IY0 T-EH1-N D-IH0-NG T-UW1


... be panthers or whatever, but instead-

B-IY1 P-AE1-N TH-ER0 Z-AO1 R-W-AH2 T-EH1 V-ER0 B-AH1 T-IH0-N-S T-EH1-D


... we have opinion on these issues.

W-IY1 HH-AE1 V-AH0 P-IH1 N-Y-AH0 N-AA1-N DH-IY1 Z-IH1 SH-UW0-Z


for example, even chief wahoo, as opposed-

F-AO1 R-IH0-G Z-AE1-M P-AH0 L-IY1 V-IH0-N CH-IY1 F-W-AH0 HH-UW1 AE1 Z-AH0 P-OW1-Z-D


to the chicago black-

T-UW1 DH-AH0 SH-AH0 K-AA1 G-OW2 B-L-AE1-K


...hawk, because they see blackhawk as an actual person and not a caricature.

HH-AO1-K B-IH0 K-AO1-Z DH-EY1 S-IY1 B-L-AE1-K HH-AO2 K-AE1 Z-AE1 N-AE1-K CH-AH0 W-AH0-L P-ER1 S-AH0 N-AH0-N D-N-AA1 T-AH0 K-EH1 R-AH0 K-AH0 CH-ER0


so from an indigenous perspective, what is the defense of a mascot like chief wahoo?

S-OW1 F-R-AH1 M-AE1 N-IH0-N D-IH1 JH-AH0 N-AH0-S P-ER0-S P-EH1-K T-IH0 V-W-AH1 T-IH1-Z DH-AH0 D-IH0 F-EH1-N S-AH1 V-AH0 M-AE1-S K-AH0 T-L-AY1-K CH-IY1 F-W-AH0 HH-UW1


... humanities and the humans behind them. i'm alex teller, director of editorial services at the newberry. in this episode, because-

HH-Y-UW0 M-AE1 N-IH0 T-IY0 Z-AH0-N-D DH-AH0 HH-Y-UW1 M-AH0-N-Z B-IH0 HH-AY1-N-D DH-EH1 M-IH1 M-AE1 L-AH0-K-S T-EH1 L-ER0 D-ER0 EH1-K T-ER0 AH1 V-EH2 D-AH0 T-AO1 R-IY0 AH0-L S-ER1 V-AH0 S-AH0 Z-AE1-T DH-AH0 N-UW1 B-EH2 R-IY0 IH0-N DH-IH1 S-EH1 P-AH0 S-OW2-D B-IH0 K-AO1-Z


what is an urbanologist and what does it mean to do urban studies?

W-AH1 T-IH1 Z-AE1 N-ER0 B-AE1 N-AH0 L-OY2 D-IH0-T S-AH0-N D-W-AH1-T D-AH1 Z-IH1 T-M-IY1-N T-UW1 D-UW1 ER1 B-AH0-N-S T-AH1 D-IY0-Z


okay. so when you're studying cities, what exactly does that... well, what's your aim? what are you trying to understand?

OW2 K-EY1 S-OW1 W-EH1 N-Y-UH1-R-S T-AH1 D-IY0 IH0-NG S-IH1 T-IY0 Z-W-AH1 T-IH0-G Z-AE1-K T-L-IY0 D-AH1-Z DH-AE1 T-W-EH1 L-W-AH0-T S-Y-AO1 R-EY1 M-W-AH1 T-AA1 R-Y-UW1 T-R-AY1 IH0-NG T-UW1 AH2-N D-ER0-S T-AE1-N-D


so it makes sense that you do a lot of walking tours. you walk around cities a lot, sort of logical. how does the archives come into what you do?

S-OW1 IH1 T-M-EY1-K-S S-EH1-N-S DH-AE1 T-Y-UW1 D-UW1 AH0 L-AA1 T-AH1 V-W-AO1 K-IH0-NG T-UH1-R Z-Y-UW1 W-AO1 K-ER0 AW1-N-D S-IH1 T-IY0 Z-AH0 L-AA1-T S-AO1-R T-AH1 V-L-AA1 JH-IH0 K-AH0-L HH-AW1 D-AH1-Z DH-AH0 AA1-R K-AY2-V-Z K-AH1 M-IH0-N T-UW1 W-AH1 T-Y-UW1 D-UW1


archives give that scholarly and academic rigor to-

AA1-R K-AY2-V-Z G-IH1-V DH-AE1-T-S K-AA1 L-ER0 L-IY0 AH0-N D-AE2 K-AH0 D-EH1 M-IH0 K-R-IH1 G-ER0 T-UW1


i was walking on north clark street, which is part of an upcoming project in mind-

AY1 W-AA1 Z-W-AO1 K-IH0 NG-AA1-N N-AO1-R-TH K-L-AA1-R-K-S T-R-IY1 T-W-IH1 CH-IH1-Z P-AA1-R T-AH1 V-AE1 N-AH1-P K-AH2 M-IH0-NG P-R-AA1 JH-EH0-K T-IH0-N M-AY1-N-D


in the near north community area, properly known as river north.

IH0-N DH-AH0 N-IH1-R N-AO1-R-TH K-AH0 M-Y-UW1 N-AH0 T-IY0 EH1 R-IY0 AH0 P-R-AA1 P-ER0 L-IY0 N-OW1 N-AE1 Z-R-IH1 V-ER0 N-AO1-R-TH


its their place, their architecture, the past inhabitants really brings... that's kind of how i get started. and i say, how can we flesh out this story?

IH1-T-S DH-EH1-R P-L-EY1-S DH-EH1 R-AA1-R K-AH0 T-EH2-K CH-ER0 DH-AH0 P-AE1-S T-IH0-N HH-AE1 B-AH0 T-AH0-N-T S-R-IH1 L-IY0 B-R-IH1-NG-Z TH-AE1-T-S K-AY1-N D-AH1-V HH-AW1 AY1 G-EH1-T-S T-AA1-R T-AH0 D-AH0-N D-AY1 S-EY1 HH-AW1 K-AE1 N-W-IY1 F-L-EH1 SH-AW1-T DH-IH1-S-S T-AO1 R-IY0


so i come back to the archives, and of course we're so lucky to have so much stuff digitized.

S-OW1 AY1 K-AH1-M B-AE1-K T-UW1 DH-AH0 AA1-R K-AY2-V Z-AH0-N D-AH1-V K-AO1-R S-W-ER0 S-OW1 L-AH1 K-IY0 T-UW1 HH-AE1-V S-OW1 M-AH1-CH-S T-AH1-F D-IH1 JH-AH0 T-AY2-Z-D


i'm old enough as a gen x-er to remember when you had no choice.

IH1 M-OW1-L D-IH0 N-AH1 F-AE1 Z-AH0 JH-EH1 N-ER0 AH0-L Z-EH1-R T-UW1 R-IH0 M-EH1-M B-ER0 W-EH1 N-Y-UW1 HH-AE1 D-N-OW1 CH-OY1-S


all right. what kind of contribution to civic life does that make? how does that interact with the whole urban environment?

AO1-L R-AY1 T-W-AH1-T K-AY1-N D-AH1-V K-AA2-N T-R-AH0 B-Y-UW1 SH-AH0-N T-UW1 S-IH1 V-IH0 K-L-AY1-F D-AH1-Z DH-AE1 T-M-EY1-K HH-AW1 D-AH1-Z DH-AE1 T-IH2-N T-ER0 AE1-K T-W-IH1-DH DH-AH0 HH-OW1 L-ER1 B-AH0 N-IH0-N V-AY1 R-AH0-N M-AH0-N-T


i think what the dill pickle club did for chicago, and there were predecessor art colonies as well, too, the art colony on 57th-

AY1 TH-IH1-NG K-W-AH1-T DH-AH0 D-IH1-L P-IH1 K-AH0-L K-L-AH1-B D-IH1-D F-AO1-R SH-AH0 K-AA1 G-OW2 AH0-N-D DH-EH1 R-W-ER0 P-R-EH1 D-AH0 S-EH2 S-ER0 AA1-R-T K-AA1 L-AH0 N-IY0 Z-AE1 Z-W-EH1-L T-UW1 DH-AH0 AA1-R-T K-AA1 L-AH0 N-IY0 AA1-N F-IH1-F T-IY0 S-EH1 V-AH0-N-TH


... street that was established. right around the talent, the columbian exposition was there for 65 years. old towe-

S-T-R-IY1-T DH-AE1 T-W-AA1 Z-IH0-S T-AE1 B-L-IH0-SH T-R-AY1 T-ER0 AW1-N-D DH-AH0 T-AE1 L-AH0-N-T DH-AH0 K-OW2 L-AH1-M B-IY0 AH0 N-EH2-K-S P-AH0 Z-IH1 SH-AH0 N-W-AA1-Z DH-EH1-R F-AO1-R S-IH1-K-S T-IY0 F-AY1 V-Y-IH1-R Z-OW1-L-D T-OW1


they give the city that kind of informal-

DH-EY1 G-IH1-V DH-AH0 S-IH1 T-IY0 DH-AE1-T K-AY1-N D-AH1 V-IH0-N F-AO1-R M-AH0-L


... place for not just socializing kind of conversation about arts and culture.

P-L-EY1-S F-AO1-R N-AA1-T JH-AH1-S-T S-OW1 SH-AH0 L-AY2 Z-IH0-NG K-AY1-N D-AH1-V K-AA2-N V-ER0 S-EY1 SH-AH0 N-AH0 B-AW1 T-AA1-R-T S-AH0-N-D K-AH1-L CH-ER0


it's great to go into a fancy, wonderful-

IH1-T-S G-R-EY1-T T-UW1 G-OW1 IH0-N T-UW1 AH0 F-AE1-N S-IY0 W-AH1-N D-ER0 F-AH0-L


... neoclassical building sanctioned by wealthy philanthropists and investors-

N-IY2 OW0 K-L-AE1 S-IH0 K-AH0-L B-IH1-L D-IH0-NG S-AE1-NG-K SH-AH0-N-D B-AY1 W-EH1-L TH-IY0 F-IH0 L-AE1-N TH-R-AH0 P-IH0-S-T S-AH0-N D-IH0-N V-EH1-S T-ER0-Z


... also that place for informal, less structured opportunity.

AO1-L S-OW0 DH-AE1-T P-L-EY1-S F-AO1 R-IH0-N F-AO1-R M-AH0-L L-EH1-S-S T-R-AH1-K CH-ER0 D-AA2 P-ER0 T-UW1 N-AH0 T-IY0


you walk, as they say, you step low and you'd come into the dill pickle club. and of course we have no radio recordings-

Y-UW1 W-AO1 K-AE1-Z DH-EY1 S-EY1 Y-UW1-S T-EH1 P-L-OW1 AH0-N D-Y-AH1-D K-AH1 M-IH0-N T-UW1 DH-AH0 D-IH1-L P-IH1 K-AH0-L K-L-AH1 B-AH0-N D-AH1-V K-AO1-R S-W-IY1 HH-AE1 V-N-OW1 R-EY1 D-IY0 OW2 R-IH0 K-AO1-R D-IH0-NG-Z


you could find a million groups like this, but it was quite novel, and almost nothing remains-

Y-UW1 K-UH1-D F-AY1-N D-AH0 M-IH1 L-Y-AH0-N G-R-UW1-P S-L-AY1-K DH-IH1-S B-AH1 T-IH1 T-W-AA1-Z K-W-AY1 T-N-AA1 V-AH0 L-AH0-N D-AO1-L M-OW2-S T-N-AH1 TH-IH0 NG-R-IH0 M-EY1-N-Z


it's all kind of upscale living, single room-

IH1-T S-AO1-L K-AY1-N D-AH1 V-AH1-P-S K-EY2-L L-IH1 V-IH0-NG S-IH1-NG G-AH0-L R-UW1-M


quincy hotels are gone. but the dill pickle really gave it that kind of sense of-

K-W-IH1-N S-IY0 HH-OW0 T-EH1-L Z-AA1-R G-AO1-N B-AH1-T DH-AH0 D-IH1-L P-IH1 K-AH0-L R-IH1 L-IY0 G-EY1 V-IH1-T DH-AE1-T K-AY1-N D-AH1-V S-EH1-N S-AH1-V


here's this kind of unsanctioned informal space. and as a result-

HH-IH1-R-Z DH-IH1-S K-AY1-N D-AH1 V-AH0-N S-AE1-NG-K SH-AH0-N D-IH0-N F-AO1-R M-AH0-L-S P-EY1 S-AH0-N D-AE1 Z-AH0 R-IH0 Z-AH1-L-T


... dill pickle club doesn't show up in the chicago tribune-

D-IH1-L P-IH1 K-AH0-L K-L-AH1-B D-OW1 S-AH0-N-T SH-OW1 AH1 P-IH0-N DH-AH0 SH-AH0 K-AA1 G-OW2 T-R-IH1 B-Y-UW0-N


... the chicago daily news, or the other papers of the period because it's on the fringes, which i think is really great.

DH-AH0 SH-AH0 K-AA1 G-OW2 D-EY1 L-IY0 N-UW1 Z-AO1-R DH-AH0 AH1 DH-ER0 P-EY1 P-ER0 Z-AH1-V DH-AH0 P-IH1 R-IY0 AH0-D B-IH0 K-AO1 Z-IH1-T S-AA1-N DH-AH0 F-R-IH1-N JH-IH0 Z-W-IH1 CH-AY1 TH-IH1-NG K-IH1 Z-R-IH1 L-IY0 G-R-EY1-T


we'll put some of these documents on the website when we upload the podcast, so if you are curious and want to see them, we'll have an image for you.

W-EH1-L P-UH1-T S-AH1 M-AH1-V DH-IY1-Z D-AA1 K-Y-AH0 M-AH0-N-T S-AA1-N DH-AH0 W-EH1-B S-AY2 T-W-EH1 N-W-IY1 AH1 P-L-OW2-D DH-AH0 P-OW1-D K-AE2-S-T S-OW1 IH1 F-Y-UW1 AA1-R K-Y-UH1 R-IY0 AH0 S-AH0-N D-W-AA1-N-T T-UW1 S-IY1 DH-EH1 M-W-EH1-L HH-AE1 V-AE1 N-IH1 M-AH0-JH F-AO1 R-Y-UW1


and one, that also is they weren't afraid of shying away from some of the more controversial political issues of the time as well.

AH0-N D-W-AH1-N DH-AE1 T-AO1-L S-OW0 IH1-Z DH-EY1 W-EH1 R-AH0-N T-AH0 F-R-EY1 D-AH1-V SH-AY1 IH0 NG-AH0 W-EY1 F-R-AH1-M S-AH1 M-AH1-V DH-AH0 M-AO1-R K-AA2-N T-R-AH0 V-ER1 SH-AH0-L P-AH0 L-IH1 T-AH0 K-AH0 L-IH1 SH-UW0 Z-AH1-V DH-AH0 T-AY1 M-AE1 Z-W-EH1-L


i have in my hand a announcement for a january 4th lecture from 1925 that promises elmer l. williams discussing, will chicago elector-

AY1 HH-AE1 V-IH0-N M-AY1 HH-AE1-N D-AH0 AH0 N-AW1-N S-M-AH0-N-T F-AO1 R-AH0 DH-AH0 F-AO1-R TH-AH1-V JH-AE1 N-Y-UW0 EH2 R-IY0 L-EH1-K CH-ER0 F-R-AH1-M N-AY1-N T-IY1-N T-W-EH1-N T-IY0 F-AY1-V DH-AE1-T P-R-AA1 M-AH0 S-AH0 Z-EH1-L M-ER0 EH1 L-W-IH1 L-Y-AH0-M-Z D-IH0-S K-AH1 S-IH0 NG-W-IH1-L SH-AH0 K-AA1 G-OW2 IH0 L-EH1-K T-ER0


racketeer mayor. with thompson barrett, lyle albert surmac-

R-AE2 K-IH0 T-IH1-R M-EY1 ER0 W-IH1-DH T-AA1-M-P S-AH0-N B-AE1 R-IH0 T-L-AY1 L-AE1-L B-ER0-T S-ER1 M-AE0-K


... the friends and enemies of these candidates will raise a route that no pineapple explosion could drown.

DH-AH0 F-R-EH1-N-D Z-AH0-N D-EH1 N-AH0 M-IY0 Z-AH1-V DH-IY1-Z K-AE1-N D-AH0 D-EY0-T S-W-IH1-L R-EY1 Z-AH0 R-UW1-T DH-AE1 T-N-OW1 P-AY1 N-AE2 P-AH0 L-IH0-K-S P-L-OW1 ZH-AH0-N K-UH1-D D-R-AW1-N


jack jones, first choice is al capone. second, thompson jack jones, being the president of the dill pickle club. and while you will know al capone-

JH-AE1-K JH-OW1-N-Z F-ER1-S-T CH-OY1 S-IH1 Z-AE1-L K-AH0 P-OW1-N S-EH1 K-AH0-N-D T-AA1-M-P S-AH0-N JH-AE1-K JH-OW1-N-Z B-IY1 IH0-NG DH-AH0 P-R-EH1 Z-AH0 D-EH2-N T-AH1-V DH-AH0 D-IH1-L P-IH1 K-AH0-L K-L-AH1 B-AH0-N D-W-AY1 L-Y-UW1 W-IH1-L N-OW1 AE1-L K-AH0 P-OW1-N


these times and kind of say... we say a free thinker. you'd come on out for one of their-

DH-IY1-Z T-AY1-M Z-AH0-N-D K-AY1-N D-AH1-V S-EY1 W-IY1 S-EY1 AH0 F-R-IY1 TH-IH1-NG K-ER0 Y-AH1-D K-AH1 M-AA1 N-AW1-T F-AO1 R-W-AH1 N-AH1-V DH-EH1-R


... lectures. and various times, they offered food.

L-EH1-K CH-ER0 Z-AH0-N-D V-EH1 R-IY0 AH0-S T-AY1-M-Z DH-EY1 AO1 F-ER0-D F-UW1-D


sometimes they use the euphemism tea room-

S-AH0-M T-AY1-M-Z DH-EY1 Y-UW1-Z DH-AH0 Y-UW1 F-AH0 M-IH2 Z-AH0-M T-IY1 R-UW1-M


... which of course is used during prohibition so that people can come and get alcohol. and by the early thirties, the dill pickle club had basically kind of run its course.

W-IH1 CH-AH1-V K-AO1-R S-IH1 Z-Y-UW1-Z-D D-UH1 R-IH0-NG P-R-OW2 AH0 B-IH1 SH-AH0-N S-OW1 DH-AE1-T P-IY1 P-AH0-L K-AE1-N K-AH1 M-AH0-N-D G-EH1 T-AE1-L K-AH0 HH-AA2 L-AH0-N-D B-AY1 DH-AH0 ER1 L-IY0 TH-ER1 T-IY0-Z DH-AH0 D-IH1-L P-IH1 K-AH0-L K-L-AH1-B HH-AE1-D B-EY1 S-IH0 K-L-IY0 K-AY1-N D-AH1 V-R-AH1 N-IH1-T-S K-AO1-R-S


i think that's the other kind of thinking about the ephemeral nature of cities as people have moved on to other things.

AY1 TH-IH1-NG-K TH-AE1-T-S DH-AH0 AH1 DH-ER0 K-AY1-N D-AH1-V TH-IH1-NG K-IH0 NG-AH0 B-AW1-T DH-AH0 IH0 F-EH1 M-ER0 AH0-L N-EY1 CH-ER0 AH1-V S-IH1 T-IY0 Z-AE1-Z P-IY1 P-AH0-L HH-AE1 V-M-UW1-V D-AA1-N T-UW1 AH1 DH-ER0 TH-IH1-NG-Z


some of the poets and other writers, and the moment had passed. so it was very-

S-AH1 M-AH1-V DH-AH0 P-OW1 AH0-T S-AH0-N D-AH1 DH-ER0 R-AY1 T-ER0 Z-AH0-N-D DH-AH0 M-OW1 M-AH0-N-T HH-AE1-D P-AE1-S-T S-OW1 IH1 T-W-AA1-Z V-EH1 R-IY0


15 years or so in the city's history-

F-IH0-F T-IY1 N-Y-IH1-R Z-AO1-R S-OW1 IH0-N DH-AH0 S-IH1 T-IY0-Z HH-IH1-S T-ER0 IY0


... but a pretty fruitful period and one we're so fortunate to have at the newberry. all these documents in hand-

B-AH1 T-AH0 P-R-IH1 T-IY0 F-R-UW1-T F-AH0-L P-IH1 R-IY0 AH0 D-AH0-N D-W-AH1 N-W-ER0 S-OW1 F-AO1-R CH-AH0 N-AH0-T T-UW1 HH-AE1 V-AE1-T DH-AH0 N-UW1 B-EH2 R-IY0 AO1-L DH-IY1-Z D-AA1 K-Y-AH0 M-AH0-N-T S-IH0-N HH-AE1-N-D


i personally would love to see a play or production-

AY1 P-ER1 S-AH0 N-AH0 L-IY0 W-UH1 D-L-AH1-V T-UW1 S-IY1 AH0 P-L-EY1 AO1-R P-R-AH0 D-AH1-K SH-AH0-N


... kind of speculative based on what would it be like, a night at the dill pickle club.

K-AY1-N D-AH1-V-S P-EH1 K-Y-AH0 L-AH0 T-IH0-V B-EY1-S T-AA1 N-W-AH1 T-W-UH1 D-IH1-T B-IY1 L-AY1 K-AH0 N-AY1 T-AE1-T DH-AH0 D-IH1-L P-IH1 K-AH0-L K-L-AH1-B


yeah, and it's very political inherently.

Y-AE1 AH0-N D-IH1-T-S V-EH1 R-IY0 P-AH0 L-IH1 T-AH0 K-AH0 L-IH0-N HH-IH1 R-AH0-N T-L-IY0


oh, so you have a lot of other things with you. what was the... what else was fascinating to you about the ethical [inaudible 00:07:21].

OW1 S-OW1 Y-UW1 HH-AE1 V-AH0 L-AA1 T-AH1 V-AH1 DH-ER0 TH-IH1-NG Z-W-IH1 DH-Y-UW1 W-AH1 T-W-AA1-Z DH-AH0 W-AH1 T-EH1-L S-W-AA1-Z F-AE1 S-AH0 N-EY2 T-IH0-NG T-UW1 Y-UW1 AH0 B-AW1-T DH-AH0 EH1 TH-AH0 K-AH0 L-IH0 N-AO1 D-AH0 B-AH0-L Z-IH1 R-OW0 AW1 ER0-Z S-EH1 V-AH0-N M-IH1 N-AH0-T S-AH0-N-D T-W-EH1-N T-IY0 W-AH1-N S-EH1 K-AH0-N-D


yeah. it's interesting that you're mentioning how ephemeral this kind of is, yet it's definitely has a continuation to today's sort of...

Y-AE1 IH1-T S-IH1-N T-R-AH0-S T-IH0-NG DH-AE1 T-Y-UH1-R M-EH1-N SH-AH0 N-IH0-NG HH-AW1 IH0 F-EH1 M-ER0 AH0-L DH-IH1-S K-AY1-N D-AH1 V-IH1 Z-Y-EH1 T-IH1-T-S D-EH1 F-AH0 N-AH0 T-L-IY0 HH-AE1 Z-AH0 K-AH0-N T-IH2 N-Y-UW0 EY1 SH-AH0-N T-UW1 T-AH0 D-EY1-Z S-AO1-R T-AH1-V


it was very well-worn. there are some concerns about its structural integrity.

IH1 T-W-AA1-Z V-EH1 R-IY0 W-EH1 L-W-ER0-N DH-EH1 R-AA1-R S-AH1-M K-AH0-N S-ER1-N Z-AH0 B-AW1 T-IH1-T-S-S T-R-AH1-K CH-ER0 AH0 L-IH0-N T-EH1 G-R-AH0 T-IY0


and if... the only thing that was really preserved-

AH0-N D-IH1-F DH-AH0 OW1 N-L-IY0 TH-IH1-NG DH-AE1 T-W-AA1 Z-R-IH1 L-IY0 P-R-AH0 Z-ER1-V-D


all right. it's a couple of internal memos. i'm looking at one right now-

AO1-L R-AY1 T-IH1-T S-AH0 K-AH1 P-AH0 L-AH1 V-IH0-N T-ER1 N-AH0-L M-EH1 M-OW0 Z-IH1 M-L-UH1 K-IH0 NG-AE1 T-W-AH1 N-R-AY1 T-N-AW1


this building includes a clock tower, having a tower clock-

DH-IH1-S B-IH1-L D-IH0 NG-IH0-N K-L-UW1-D Z-AH0 K-L-AA1-K T-AW1 ER0 HH-AE1 V-IH0 NG-AH0 T-AW1 ER0 K-L-AA1-K


i am interested in and study clocks-

AY1 AE1 M-IH1-N T-R-AH0-S T-AH0 D-IH0 N-AH0-N-D-S T-AH1 D-IY0 K-L-AA1-K-S


interesting that some of this stuff may have been repurposed, but you have this preserved as a memorial to what city used to be like?yeah, absolutely.

IH1-N T-R-AH0-S T-IH0-NG DH-AE1-T S-AH1 M-AH1-V DH-IH1-S-S T-AH1 F-M-EY1 HH-AE1-V B-IH1 N-R-IY0 P-ER1 S-AH0 P-AH0-S-T B-AH1 T-Y-UW1 HH-AE1-V DH-IH1-S P-R-AH0 Z-ER1-V D-AE1 Z-AH0 M-AH0 M-AO1 R-IY0 AH0-L T-UW1 W-AH1-T S-IH1 T-IY0 Y-UW1-Z-D T-UW1 B-IY1 L-AY2 K-IY1 AH0 AE2-B S-AH0 L-UW1 T-L-IY0


all the time.


well, thank you very much for talking about urbanology today.thank you.appreciate it.

W-EH1-L TH-AE1-NG K-Y-UW1 V-EH1 R-IY0 M-AH1-CH F-AO1-R T-AO1 K-IH0 NG-AH0 B-AW1 T-ER0 B-AE2 N-AH0 L-AO1 JH-IY0 T-AH0 D-EY1 SH-AH0-N K-Y-UW2 P-ER0 S-IH1 P-AH0 T-IY0 IH1-T


... is, she shot him dead. the criminalization-

IH1-Z SH-IY1 SH-AA1-T HH-IH1-M D-EH1-D DH-AH0 K-R-IH2 M-AH0 N-AH0 L-AH0 Z-EY1 SH-AH0-N


... what's it about, what did you find.

W-AH0-T S-IH1 T-AH0 B-AW1 T-W-AH1-T D-IH1 D-Y-UW1 F-AY1-N-D


people working in the stockyards, men drinking in saloons-

P-IY1 P-AH0 L-W-ER1 K-IH0 NG-IH0-N DH-AH0-S T-AA1 K-Y-AA2-R-D Z-M-EH1-N D-R-IH1-NG K-IH0 NG-IH0-N S-AH0 L-UW1-N-Z


yes, not in the streets, though.okay. kind of like a fight club thing?

Y-EH1 S-N-AA1 T-IH0-N DH-AH0-S T-R-IY1-T-S TH-OW0 HH-AW1 K-EY2 K-AY1-N D-AH1 V-L-AY1 K-AH0 F-AY1-T K-L-AH1-B TH-IH1-NG


essentially.okay.yes, not to simplify the very great work that people have done on this topic. yeah-

EH2 S-AH0-N SH-IY0 AE1 L-AH0 K-EY2 S-N-AA1-T T-UW1 S-IH1-M P-L-AH0 F-AY2 DH-AH0 V-EH1 R-IY0 G-R-EY1 T-W-ER1-K DH-AE1-T P-IY1 P-AH0-L HH-AE1-V D-AH1 N-AA1-N DH-IH1-S T-AA1 P-IH0 K-Y-AE1


so essentially my research questions-

S-OW1 IH0 S-EH1-N SH-AH0 L-IY0 M-AY1 R-IY0 S-ER1-CH K-W-EH1-S CH-AH0-N-Z


... where are the women in these sort of violent subcultures, and-

W-EH1 R-AA1-R DH-AH0 W-IH1 M-AH0 N-IH0-N DH-IY1-Z S-AO1-R T-AH1-V V-AY1 AH0 L-AH0-N-T S-AH1-B K-AH2-L CH-ER0 Z-AH0-N-D


... my research attempted to find out how women occupied space in industrializing chicago beyond kind of the women-

M-AY1 R-IY0 S-ER1 CH-AH0 T-EH1-M-P T-AH0-D T-UW1 F-AY1-N D-AW1-T HH-AW1 W-IH1 M-AH0 N-AA1 K-Y-AH0 P-AY2-D-S P-EY1 S-IH0 N-IH0-N D-AH1-S T-R-IY0 AH0 L-AY2 Z-IH0-NG SH-AH0 K-AA1 G-OW2 B-IH0 AA1-N-D K-AY1-N D-AH1-V DH-AH0 W-IH1 M-AH0-N


... we already know about, like the settlement workers like jane adams or prostitutes or factory workers.

W-IY1 AO0-L R-EH1 D-IY0 N-OW1 AH0 B-AW1 T-L-AY1-K DH-AH0 S-EH1 T-AH0-L M-AH0-N T-W-ER1 K-ER0 Z-L-AY1-K JH-EY1 N-AE1 D-AH0-M Z-AO1-R P-R-AA1-S T-AH0 T-UW2-T S-AO1-R F-AE1-K T-ER0 IY0 W-ER1 K-ER0-Z


my question was, what about women in saloons?

M-AY1 K-W-EH1-S CH-AH0 N-W-AA1 Z-W-AH1 T-AH0 B-AW1 T-W-IH1 M-AH0 N-IH0-N S-AH0 L-UW1-N-Z


what about women navigating the streets, not as settlement workers. who are these women? and so beyond that-

W-AH1 T-AH0 B-AW1 T-W-IH1 M-AH0-N N-AE1 V-AH0 G-EY2 T-IH0-NG DH-AH0-S T-R-IY1-T S-N-AA1 T-AE1-Z S-EH1 T-AH0-L M-AH0-N T-W-ER1 K-ER0-Z HH-UW1 AA1-R DH-IY1 Z-W-IH1 M-AH0 N-AH0-N-D S-OW1 B-IH0 AA1-N-D DH-AE1-T


one of the ways to find those women meant looking at homicide records, which then led to a whole different source of questions like...

W-AH1 N-AH1-V DH-AH0 W-EY1-Z T-UW1 F-AY1-N-D DH-OW1 Z-W-IH1 M-AH0-N M-EH1-N T-L-UH1 K-IH0 NG-AE1-T HH-AA1 M-AH0 S-AY2 D-R-EH1 K-ER0-D Z-W-IH1-CH DH-EH1 N-L-EH1-D T-UW1 AH0 HH-OW1-L D-IH1 F-ER0 AH0-N-T S-AO1-R S-AH1-V K-W-EH1-S CH-AH0-N Z-L-AY1-K


... when are women arrested for crime? when are they convicted for crime?

W-EH1 N-AA1 R-W-IH1 M-AH0 N-ER0 EH1-S T-AH0-D F-AO1-R K-R-AY1 M-W-EH1 N-AA1-R DH-EY1 K-AH0-N V-IH1-K T-AH0-D F-AO1-R K-R-AY1-M


when are they not held culpable? so to kind of turn into this broader project about studying...

W-EH1 N-AA1-R DH-EY1 N-AA1-T HH-EH1-L-D K-AH1-L P-AH0 B-AH0-L S-OW1 T-UW1 K-AY1-N D-AH1-V T-ER1 N-IH0-N T-UW1 DH-IH1-S B-R-AO1 D-ER0 P-R-AA1 JH-EH0-K T-AH0 B-AW1-T-S T-AH1 D-IY0 IH0-NG


... how certain women are considered criminal and certain aren't. and how that changes over time?

HH-AW1 S-ER1 T-AH0 N-W-IH1 M-AH0 N-AA1-R K-AH0-N S-IH1 D-ER0-D K-R-IH1 M-AH0 N-AH0 L-AH0-N-D S-ER1 T-AH0 N-AA1 R-AH0-N T-AH0-N-D HH-AW1 DH-AE1-T CH-EY1-N JH-AH0 Z-OW1 V-ER0 T-AY1-M


so you just mentioned consulting homicide records.

S-OW1 Y-UW1 JH-AH1-S T-M-EH1-N SH-AH0-N-D K-AH0-N S-AH1-L T-IH0-NG HH-AA1 M-AH0 S-AY2 D-R-EH1 K-ER0-D-Z


those records, and about other types of documents that you use to conduct this research.

DH-OW1 Z-R-EH1 K-ER0-D Z-AH0-N D-AH0 B-AW1 T-AH1 DH-ER0 T-AY1-P S-AH1-V D-AA1 K-Y-AH0 M-AH0-N-T-S DH-AE1 T-Y-UW1 Y-UW1-Z T-UW1 K-AA0-N D-AH1-K-T DH-IH1 S-R-IY0 S-ER1-CH


i mean the court records maybe... tell us a little bit more about that.

AY1 M-IY1-N DH-AH0 K-AO1-R T-R-EH1 K-ER0-D Z-M-EY1 B-IY0 T-EH1 L-AH1 S-AH0 L-IH1 T-AH0-L B-IH1 T-M-AO1 R-AH0 B-AW1-T DH-AE1-T


a lot of the women that i wanted to study did not leave behind records. there not a lot of journals or manuscript collections.

AH0 L-AA1 T-AH1-V DH-AH0 W-IH1 M-AH0-N DH-AE1 T-AY1 W-AA1-N T-AH0-D T-UW1-S T-AH1 D-IY0 D-IH1 D-N-AA1 T-L-IY1-V B-IH0 HH-AY1-N D-R-EH1 K-ER0-D-Z DH-EH1-R N-AA1 T-AH0 L-AA1 T-AH1-V JH-ER1 N-AH0-L Z-AO1-R M-AE1 N-Y-AH0-S K-R-IH2-P-T K-AH0 L-EH1-K SH-AH0-N-Z


and so northwestern university has digitized a really great collection of police records.

AH0-N-D S-OW1 N-AO2-R TH-W-EH1-S T-ER0 N-Y-UW2 N-AH0 V-ER1 S-AH0 T-IY0 HH-AE1-Z D-IH1 JH-AH0 T-AY2-Z D-AH0 R-IH1 L-IY0 G-R-EY1-T K-AH0 L-EH1-K SH-AH0 N-AH1-V P-AH0 L-IY1 S-R-EH1 K-ER0-D-Z


police arrest records during my time period and a little bit beyond. so i started by looking at police records.

P-AH0 L-IY1 S-ER0 EH1-S T-R-EH1 K-ER0-D-Z D-UH1 R-IH0-NG M-AY1 T-AY1-M P-IH1 R-IY0 AH0 D-AH0-N D-AH0 L-IH1 T-AH0-L B-IH1-T B-IH0 AA1-N-D S-OW1 AY1-S T-AA1-R T-AH0-D B-AY1 L-UH1 K-IH0 NG-AE1-T P-AH0 L-IY1 S-R-EH1 K-ER0-D-Z


i then headed over to the daley center and the circuit court...

AY1 DH-EH1-N HH-EH1 D-AH0 D-OW1 V-ER0 T-UW1 DH-AH0 D-EY1 L-IY0 S-EH1-N T-ER0 AH0-N-D DH-AH0 S-ER1 K-AH0-T K-AO1-R-T


... archives to look at the court records.

AA1-R K-AY2-V-Z T-UW1 L-UH1 K-AE1-T DH-AH0 K-AO1-R T-R-EH1 K-ER0-D-Z


so then i could cross list of these women who were arrested, who actually ended up in court and what happened thereafter.

S-OW1 DH-EH1 N-AY1 K-UH1-D K-R-AO1 S-L-IH1-S T-AH1-V DH-IY1 Z-W-IH1 M-AH0-N HH-UW1 W-ER0 ER0 EH1-S T-AH0-D HH-UW1 AE1-K CH-AH0 W-AH0 L-IY0 EH1-N D-AH0 D-AH1 P-IH0-N K-AO1-R T-AH0-N D-W-AH1-T HH-AE1 P-AH0-N-D DH-EH0 R-AE1-F T-ER0


a challenging aspect of that was that...

AH0 CH-AE1 L-AH0-N JH-IH0 NG-AE1-S P-EH2-K T-AH1-V DH-AE1 T-W-AA1-Z DH-AE1-T


... the court records there from about 1900 to 1924 have been destroyed.do you know why?

DH-AH0 K-AO1-R T-R-EH1 K-ER0-D-Z DH-EH1-R F-R-AH1 M-AH0 B-AW1 T-N-AY1-N T-IY1-N HH-AH1-N D-R-AH0-D T-UW1 N-AY1-N T-IY1-N T-W-EH1-N T-IY0 F-AO1-R HH-AE1-V B-IH1-N D-IH0-S T-R-OW0 D-EY1 T-OW0 Y-UW1 N-OW1 W-AY1


i believe...like, was it a fire? was it...

AY1 B-IH0 L-IY1 V-Y-IH0 K-IY0 W-AA1 Z-IH1 T-AH0 F-AY1 ER0 W-AA1 Z-IH1-T


they were purposely destroyed in the 1970s.

DH-EY1 W-ER0 P-ER1 P-AH0 S-L-IY0 D-IH0-S T-R-OY1 D-IH0-N DH-AH0 N-AY1-N T-IY1-N S-EH1 V-AH0-N T-IY0-Z


the argument is that or the explanation...

DH-AH0 AA1-R G-Y-AH0 M-AH0-N T-IH1-Z DH-AE1 T-AO1-R DH-AH0 EH2-K-S P-L-AH0 N-EY1 SH-AH0-N


... whose going to toss on.it is a real loss.

HH-UW1-Z G-OW1 IH0-NG T-UW1 T-AO1 S-OW0 N-IY1 T-AH0 T-IH1 Z-AH0 R-IY1-L L-AO1-S


they were clearly not archivally minded.no.

DH-EY1 W-ER0 K-L-IH1-R L-IY0 N-AA1 T-AA1-R K-AH0 V-AO2-L M-IH0 D-EH1-N D-IY0 N-OW0


did you decide on the period, or did you find this collection of materials that you realized was for this time period? and then you said...

D-IH1 D-Y-UW1 D-IH0 S-AY1 D-AA1-N DH-AH0 P-IH1 R-IY0 AH0 D-AO1-R D-IH1 D-Y-UW1 F-AY1-N-D DH-IH1-S K-AH0 L-EH1-K SH-AH0 N-AH1 V-M-AH0 T-IH1 R-IY0 AH0-L-Z DH-AE1 T-Y-UW1 R-IY1 L-AY2-Z D-W-AA1-Z F-AO1-R DH-IH1-S T-AY1-M P-IH1 R-IY0 AH0 D-AH0-N-D DH-EH1 N-Y-UW1 S-EH1-D


... "well, that's what i will look at." like did the archive define the project or did the project...

W-EH1-L TH-AE1-T S-W-AH1 T-AY1 W-IH1-L L-UH1 K-AE1 T-L-AY1-K D-IH1-D DH-AH0 AA1-R K-AY2-V D-IH0 F-AY1-N DH-AH0 P-R-AA1 JH-EH0-K T-AO1-R D-IH1-D DH-AH0 P-R-AA1 JH-EH0-K-T


... happened to coincide with an archive?that is a great question.

HH-AE1 P-AH0-N-D T-UW1 K-OW2 IH0-N S-AY1 D-W-IH1 DH-AE1 N-AA1-R K-AH0 TH-IY2 AH0 T-IH1 Z-AH0 G-R-EY1-T K-W-EH1-S CH-AH0-N


the time period, my periodization came first or my desire to study the 1870s through the 19 teens came first.

DH-AH0 T-AY1-M P-IH1 R-IY0 AH0 D-M-AY1 P-EH2 R-IY0 AH0 Z-AH0 D-EY1 SH-AH0-N K-EY1-M F-ER1-S T-AO1-R M-AY1 D-IH0 Z-AY1 ER0 T-UW1-S T-AH1 D-IY0 DH-AH0 EY0 T-IY1-N S-EH1 V-AH0-N T-IY0-Z TH-R-UW1 DH-AH0 N-AY1-N T-IY1-N T-IY1-N-Z K-EY1-M F-ER1-S-T


but i decided to try to start with 1871 because i knew there'd be more available. and plus...

B-AH1 T-AY1 D-IH0 S-AY1 D-IH0-D T-UW1 T-R-AY1 T-UW1-S T-AA1-R T-W-IH1 DH-EY0 T-IY1-N S-EH1 V-AH0-N T-IY0 W-AH1-N B-IH0 K-AO1 Z-AY1 N-UW1 DH-EH1-R-D B-IY1 M-AO1 R-AH0 V-EY1 L-AH0 B-AH0 L-AH0-N-D P-L-AH1-S


... how did we get to the 1920s? and as demonstrated by the limited court records...

HH-AW1 D-IH1 D-W-IY1 G-EH1-T T-UW1 DH-AH0 N-AY1-N T-IY1-N T-W-EH1-N T-IY0 Z-AH0-N D-AE1-Z D-EH1 M-AH0-N-S T-R-EY2 T-AH0-D B-AY1 DH-AH0 L-IH1 M-AH0 T-AH0-D K-AO1-R T-R-EH1 K-ER0-D-Z


... i could look at, and when i say limited, i still mean like 400 boxes.

AY1 K-UH1 D-L-UH1 K-AE1 T-AH0-N D-W-EH1 N-AY1 S-EY1 L-IH1 M-AH0 T-AH0 D-AY1-S T-IH1-L M-IY1 N-L-AY1-K F-AO1-R HH-AH1-N D-R-AH0-D B-AA1-K S-AH0-Z


maybe it's 200 boxes. i might be exaggerating. it felt like 400...

M-EY1 B-IY0 IH1-T-S T-UW1 HH-AH1-N D-R-AH0-D B-AA1-K S-AH0 Z-AY1 M-AY1-T B-IY1 IH0-G Z-AE1 JH-ER0 EY2 T-IH0 NG-IH1-T F-EH1-L T-L-AY1-K F-AO1-R HH-AH1-N D-R-AH0-D


... boxes all that. but that, because i ended at 1900, i didn't necessarily...

B-AA1-K S-AH0 Z-AO1-L DH-AE1-T B-AH1-T DH-AE1-T B-IH0 K-AO1 Z-AY1 EH1-N D-AH0 D-AE1 T-N-AY1-N T-IY1-N HH-AH1-N D-R-AH0 D-AY1 D-IH1 D-AH0-N T-N-EH2 S-AH0 S-EH1 R-AH0 L-IY0


... the archives didn't define that time period. like i still didn't have as much as i wanted.

DH-AH0 AA1-R K-AY2-V-Z D-IH1 D-AH0-N-T D-IH0 F-AY1-N DH-AE1-T T-AY1-M P-IH1 R-IY0 AH0 D-L-AY1 K-AY1-S T-IH1-L D-IH1 D-AH0-N-T HH-AE1 V-AE1 Z-M-AH1 CH-AE1 Z-AY1 W-AA1-N T-AH0-D


i see. let's talk about these 400 boxes worth of records.

AY1 S-IY1 L-EH1-T-S T-AO1 K-AH0 B-AW1-T DH-IY1-Z F-AO1-R HH-AH1-N D-R-AH0-D B-AA1-K S-AH0 Z-W-ER1 TH-AH1 V-R-EH1 K-ER0-D-Z


how many criminal cases?

HH-AW1 M-EH1 N-IY0 K-R-IH1 M-AH0 N-AH0-L K-EY1 S-AH0-Z


how did you manage that information in order to actually draw conclusions?so at first...

HH-AW1 D-IH1 D-Y-UW1 M-AE1 N-AH0-JH DH-AE1 T-IH2-N F-ER0 M-EY1 SH-AH0 N-IH0 N-AO1-R D-ER0 T-UW1 AE1-K CH-AH0 W-AH0 L-IY0 D-R-AO1 K-AH0-N K-L-UW1 S-IY0 OW0 N-OW0 S-AE1-T F-ER1-S-T


... i had to limit what i could look at, because again, we're talking 2-300...

AY1 HH-AE1-D T-UW1 L-IH1 M-AH0 T-W-AH1 T-AY1 K-UH1 D-L-UH1 K-AE1-T B-IH0 K-AO1 Z-AH0 G-EH1 N-W-ER0 T-AO1 K-IH0-NG T-UW1 T-UW1 TH-R-IY1 HH-AH1-N D-R-AH0-D


... boxes. and within each box which is unindexed, i might add, meaning that it's just a pile of...

B-AA1-K S-AH0 Z-AH0-N D-W-IH0 DH-IH1 N-IY1-CH B-AA1-K S-W-IH1 CH-IH1 Z-Y-UW1 N-IH0-N D-EH2-S-T S-AY1 M-AY1 T-AE1 D-M-IY1 N-IH0-NG DH-AE1 T-IH1-T-S JH-AH1-S T-AH0 P-AY1 L-AH1-V


... papers. pile of papers not in a date order.

P-EY1 P-ER0-Z P-AY1 L-AH1-V P-EY1 P-ER0 Z-N-AA1 T-IH0 N-AH0 D-EY1 T-AO1-R D-ER0


they couldn't, for example, just pull out all of the cases in which women were defendants.

DH-EY1 K-AW1-L D-AH0-N-T F-AO1 R-IH0-G Z-AE1-M P-AH0-L JH-AH1-S-T P-UH1 L-AW1 T-AO1 L-AH1-V DH-AH0 K-EY1 S-AH0 Z-IH0 N-W-IH1 CH-W-IH1 M-AH0 N-W-ER0 D-IH0 F-EH1-N D-AH0-N-T-S


i see.so i decided first to start with women defendants and i decided to...

AY1 S-IY1 S-OW0 AY1 D-IH0 S-AY1 D-IH0-D F-ER1-S-T T-UW1-S T-AA1-R T-W-IH1 DH-W-IH1 M-AH0-N D-IH0 F-EH1-N D-AH0-N-T S-AH0-N D-AY1 D-IH0 S-AY1 D-IH0-D T-UW1


... pull out all of the felonies.

P-UH1 L-AW1 T-AO1 L-AH1-V DH-AH0 F-EH1 L-AH0 N-IY0-Z


or murder, rather murder or manslaughter once it gets to the courts.

AO1-R M-ER1 D-ER0 R-AE1 DH-ER0 M-ER1 D-ER0 AO1-R M-AE1-N S-L-AO2 T-ER0 W-AH1-N S-IH1-T G-EH1-T-S T-UW1 DH-AH0 K-AO1-R-T-S


so i rigorously documented each of those. but then i also hear in there something caught my eye, like assault here.

S-OW1 AY1 R-IH1 G-ER0 AH0 S-L-IY0 D-AA1 K-Y-AH0 M-EH2-N T-AH0 D-IY1 CH-AH1-V DH-OW1-Z B-AH1-T DH-EH1 N-AY1 AO1-L S-OW0 HH-IY1 R-IH0-N DH-EH1-R S-AH1-M TH-IH0-NG K-AA1 T-M-AY1 AY1 L-AY1 K-AH0 S-AO1-L-T HH-IY1-R


riot there. mayhem, there are a couple of counts on mayhem.

R-AY1 AH0-T DH-EH1-R M-EY1 HH-EH2-M DH-EH1 R-AA1 R-AH0 K-AH1 P-AH0 L-AH1-V K-AW1-N-T S-AA1-N M-EY1 HH-EH2-M


yes.okay.yes. i would like to add that i did have a really wonderful...

Y-EH1 S-AH0 K-EY2-T S-AY1 W-UH1 D-L-AY1-K T-UW1 AE1-D DH-AE1 T-AY1 D-IH1-D HH-AE1 V-AH0 R-IH1 L-IY0 W-AH1-N D-ER0 F-AH0-L


... mentee. i was part of the research fellowship mentorship program...

M-EH1-N T-IY2 AY1 W-AA1-Z P-AA1-R T-AH1-V DH-AH0 R-IY0 S-ER1-CH F-EH1 L-OW0 SH-IH2 P-M-EH1-N T-ER0 SH-IH2-P P-R-OW1 G-R-AE2-M


... at loyola university. and so alice thompson, who is a phenomenal undergrad at loyola...

AE1 T-L-OY2 OW1 L-AH0 Y-UW2 N-AH0 V-ER1 S-AH0 T-IY0 AH0-N-D S-OW1 AE1 L-AH0-S T-AA1-M-P S-AH0-N HH-UW1 IH1 Z-AH0 F-AH0 N-AA1 M-AH0 N-AH0 L-AH1-N D-ER0 G-R-AE2 D-AE1 T-L-OY2 OW1 L-AH0


... helped me go through all of these boxes one summer, just because it was an incredible amount.

HH-EH1-L-P T-M-IY1 G-OW1 TH-R-UW1 AO1 L-AH1-V DH-IY1-Z B-AA1-K S-AH0 Z-W-AH1-N S-AH1 M-ER0 JH-AH1-S-T B-IH0 K-AO1 Z-IH1 T-W-AA1 Z-AE1 N-IH0-N K-R-EH1 D-AH0 B-AH0 L-AH0 M-AW1-N-T


so we took pictures of everything and then input it into a spreadsheet.wow, so every single item has a photo as well.yes.

S-OW1 W-IY1 T-UH1-K P-IH1-K CH-ER0 Z-AH1 V-EH1 V-R-IY0 TH-IH2 NG-AH0-N-D DH-EH1 N-IH1-N P-UH2 T-IH1 T-IH0-N T-UW1 AH0-S P-R-EH1-D SH-IY0 T-OW1 F-IY0 S-OW1 EH1 V-ER0 IY0 S-IH1-NG G-AH0 L-AY1 T-AH0-M HH-AE1 Z-AH0 F-OW1 T-OW2 AE1 Z-W-EH1 L-IY0-Z


so then, and i get spoiler alert.

S-OW1 DH-EH1 N-AH0-N D-AY1 G-EH1-T-S P-OY1 L-ER0 AH0 L-ER1-T


i already know how this ended up. so you then took all of that information and you ended up creating a digital map...

AY1 AO0-L R-EH1 D-IY0 N-OW1 HH-AW1 DH-IH1 S-EH1-N D-AH0 D-AH1-P S-OW1 Y-UW1 DH-EH1-N T-UH1 K-AO1 L-AH1-V DH-AE1 T-IH2-N F-ER0 M-EY1 SH-AH0 N-AH0-N D-Y-UW1 EH1-N D-AH0 D-AH1-P K-R-IY0 EY1 T-IH0 NG-AH0 D-IH1 JH-AH0 T-AH0-L M-AE1-P


... that plotted out each of these crimes...

DH-AE1-T P-L-AA1 T-AH0 D-AW1 T-IY1 CH-AH1-V DH-IY1-Z K-R-AY1-M-Z


... on a map, but then also kind of in time.

AA1 N-AH0 M-AE1-P B-AH1-T DH-EH1 N-AO1-L S-OW0 K-AY1-N D-AH1 V-IH0-N T-AY1-M


i could usually find an address of where the woman was arrested, courtesy of those police records.

AY1 K-UH1 D-Y-UW1 ZH-AH0 W-AH0 L-IY0 F-AY1-N D-AE1 N-AE1 D-R-EH2 S-AH1 V-W-EH1-R DH-AH0 W-UH1 M-AH0 N-W-AA1 Z-ER0 EH1-S T-AH0-D K-ER1 T-AH0 S-IY0 AH1-V DH-OW1-Z P-AH0 L-IY1 S-R-EH1 K-ER0-D-Z


and so for each case...


i then looked at old maps of chicago to plot each address in 1909.

AY1 DH-EH1 N-L-UH1-K T-AE1 T-OW1-L D-M-AE1-P S-AH1-V SH-AH0 K-AA1 G-OW2 T-UW1 P-L-AA1 T-IY1 CH-AE1 D-R-EH2 S-IH0-N N-AY1-N T-IY1 N-OW1 N-AY1-N


so i couldn't use contemporary maps to plot each address actually to go back and look at old fire insurance...

S-OW1 AY1 K-AW1-L D-AH0-N T-Y-UW1-S K-AH0-N T-EH1-M P-ER0 EH2 R-IY0 M-AE1-P-S T-UW1 P-L-AA1 T-IY1 CH-AE1 D-R-EH2 S-AE1-K CH-AH0 W-AH0 L-IY0 T-UW1 G-OW1 B-AE1 K-AH0-N D-L-UH1 K-AE1 T-OW1-L-D F-AY1 ER0 IH0-N SH-UH1 R-AH0-N-S


... maps to plot each address. and so from there...

M-AE1-P-S T-UW1 P-L-AA1 T-IY1 CH-AE1 D-R-EH2 S-AH0-N-D S-OW1 F-R-AH1-M DH-EH1-R


... i then coded or kind of attached metadata to each plot so that i could put on different filters...

AY1 DH-EH1-N K-OW1 D-IH0 D-AO1-R K-AY1-N D-AH1 V-AH0 T-AE1-CH T-M-EH2 T-AH0 D-EY1 T-AH0 T-UW1 IY1-CH P-L-AA1-T S-OW1 DH-AE1 T-AY1 K-UH1-D P-UH1 T-AA1-N D-IH1 F-ER0 AH0-N-T F-IH1-L T-ER0-Z


... on these plotted points and find out for example, how many of the homicides in this part of the city involved infanticide.

AA1-N DH-IY1-Z P-L-AA1 T-AH0-D P-OY1-N-T S-AH0-N-D F-AY1-N D-AW1-T F-AO1 R-IH0-G Z-AE1-M P-AH0-L HH-AW1 M-EH1 N-IY0 AH1-V DH-AH0 HH-AA1 M-AH0 S-AY2-D Z-IH0-N DH-IH1-S P-AA1-R T-AH1-V DH-AH0 S-IH1 T-IY0 IH0-N V-AA1-L-V D-IH0-N F-AE1-N T-AH0 S-AY2-D


how many involved language of domestic violence?

HH-AW1 M-EH1 N-IY0 IH0-N V-AA1-L-V D-L-AE1-NG G-W-AH0 JH-AH1-V D-AH0 M-EH1-S T-IH0-K V-AY1 AH0 L-AH0-N-S


how many involved multiple...

HH-AW1 M-EH1 N-IY0 IH0-N V-AA1-L-V D-M-AH1-L T-AH0 P-AH0-L


... victims?so it's sorting. it's a way to sort your data.spatially.spatially with a map.yes.and so in doing that...

V-IH0-K T-IH1-M S-OW0 IH1-T-S S-AO1-R T-IH0 NG-IH1-T S-AH0 W-EY1 T-UW1 S-AO1-R T-Y-AO1-R D-EY2-T-S P-AO2 L-AH0-T S-AY1 V-AH0 W-IH1 DH-AH0 M-EY1 P-IY0 Z-AE2-N-D S-OW1 IH0-N D-UW1 IH0-NG DH-AE1-T


... how did this enhance your research?

HH-AW1 D-IH1-D DH-IH1 S-EH0-N HH-AE1-N S-Y-AO1-R R-IY0 S-ER1-CH


did this allow you to reach different conclusions than what you may have been able to reach if you were just kind of looking at a spreadsheet or looking at newspaper articles?yes.

D-IH1-D DH-IH1 S-AH0 L-AW1 Y-UW1 T-UW1 R-IY1-CH D-IH1 F-ER0 AH0-N-T K-AH0-N K-L-UW1 ZH-AH0-N-Z DH-AE1 N-W-AH1 T-Y-UW1 M-EY1 HH-AE1-V B-IH1 N-EY1 B-AH0-L T-UW1 R-IY1 CH-IH1 F-Y-UW1 W-ER0 JH-AH1-S-T K-AY1-N D-AH1 V-L-UH1 K-IH0 NG-AE1 T-AH0-S P-R-EH1-D SH-IY2 T-AO1-R L-UH1 K-IH0 NG-AE1 T-N-UW1-Z P-EY2 P-ER0 AA1-R T-AH0 K-AH0 L-AH0 S-IH0-Z


on one hand it did help me just as a visual person to come to conclusions that other people may have been able to do without plotting them.

AA1 N-W-AH1-N HH-AE1-N D-IH1-T D-IH1-D HH-EH1-L P-M-IY1 JH-AH1-S T-AE1 Z-AH0 V-IH1 ZH-AH0 W-AH0-L P-ER1 S-AH0-N T-UW1 K-AH1-M T-UW1 K-AH0-N K-L-UW1 ZH-AH0-N-Z DH-AE1 T-AH1 DH-ER0 P-IY1 P-AH0-L M-EY1 HH-AE1-V B-IH1 N-EY1 B-AH0-L T-UW1 D-UW1 W-IH0 TH-AW1-T P-L-AA1 T-IH0-NG DH-EH1-M


but i may have not been able to do. but secondly, there were a couple of conclusions that i could come to based on how...

B-AH1 T-AY1 M-EY1 HH-AE1 V-N-AA1-T B-IH1 N-EY1 B-AH0-L T-UW1 D-UW1 B-AH1-T S-EH1 K-AH0-N D-L-IY0 DH-EH1 R-W-ER0 AH0 K-AH1 P-AH0 L-AH1-V K-AH0-N K-L-UW1 ZH-AH0-N-Z DH-AE1 T-AY1 K-UH1-D K-AH1-M T-UW1 B-EY1-S T-AA1-N HH-AW1


... the maps turned out. for example,

DH-AH0 M-AE1-P-S T-ER1-N D-AW1-T F-AO1 R-IH0-G Z-AE1-M P-AH0-L


... a lot of people, both historically and contemporarily have argued that a lot of these...

AH0 L-AA1 T-AH1-V P-IY1 P-AH0-L B-OW1-TH HH-IH0-S T-AO1 R-IH0 K-AH0 L-IY0 AH0-N-D K-AH0-N T-EH2-M P-ER0 IH1 L-AH0 P-IY0 HH-AE1 V-AA1-R G-Y-UW0-D DH-AE1 T-AH0 L-AA1 T-AH1-V DH-IY1-Z


... that prostitution was primarily taking place within known segregated sex districts. and when, i mean segregated, i mean...

DH-AE1-T P-R-AA2-S T-AH0 T-UW1 SH-AH0 N-W-AA1-Z P-R-AY0 M-EH1 R-AH0 L-IY0 T-EY1 K-IH0-NG P-L-EY1 S-W-IH0 DH-IH1-N N-OW1-N S-EH1 G-R-AH0 G-EY2 T-IH0-D S-EH1-K-S D-IH1-S T-R-IH0-K-T S-AH0-N D-W-EH1 N-AY1 M-IY1-N S-EH1 G-R-AH0 G-EY2 T-IH0 D-AY1 M-IY1-N


... a distinct area where the city kind of agreed.

AH0 D-IH0-S T-IH1-NG-K T-EH1 R-IY0 AH0 W-EH1-R DH-AH0 S-IH1 T-IY0 K-AY1-N D-AH1 V-AH0 G-R-IY1-D


and so i had thought, given all of the historical literature about the concern over these sex districts...

AH0-N-D S-OW1 AY1 HH-AE1-D TH-AO1-T G-IH1 V-AH0 N-AO1 L-AH1-V DH-AH0 HH-IH0-S T-AO1 R-IH0 K-AH0-L L-IH1 T-ER0 AH0 CH-ER0 AH0 B-AW1-T DH-AH0 K-AH0-N S-ER1 N-OW1 V-ER0 DH-IY1-Z S-EH1-K-S D-IH1-S T-R-IH0-K-T-S


... i assume that that's most where i would find homicides associated with prostitution. and that was not the case.

AY1 AH0 S-UW1-M DH-AE1-T TH-AE1-T S-M-OW1-S T-W-EH1 R-AY1 W-UH1-D F-AY1-N-D HH-AA1 M-AH0 S-AY2-D Z-AH0 S-OW1 S-IY0 EY2 T-AH0 D-W-IH1-DH P-R-AA2-S T-AH0 T-UW1 SH-AH0 N-AH0-N-D DH-AE1 T-W-AA1 Z-N-AA1-T DH-AH0 K-EY1-S


we're more concerned about the money being made in those districts rather than the actual presence of prostitution, because clearly based on just the homicides associated with prostitution.

W-ER0 M-AO1-R K-AH0-N S-ER1-N D-AH0 B-AW1-T DH-AH0 M-AH1 N-IY0 B-IY1 IH0-NG M-EY1 D-IH0-N DH-OW1-Z D-IH1-S T-R-IH0-K-T S-R-AE1 DH-ER0 DH-AE1-N DH-AH0 AE1-K CH-AH0 W-AH0-L P-R-EH1 Z-AH0-N S-AH1-V P-R-AA2-S T-AH0 T-UW1 SH-AH0-N B-IH0 K-AO1-Z K-L-IH1-R L-IY0 B-EY1-S T-AA1-N JH-AH1-S-T DH-AH0 HH-AA1 M-AH0 S-AY2-D Z-AH0 S-OW1 S-IY0 EY2 T-AH0 D-W-IH1-DH P-R-AA2-S T-AH0 T-UW1 SH-AH0-N


interesting.so it strikes me to be less of a moral concern and more of an economic concern.and did you just out of curiosity...

IH2-N T-ER0 S-EH1-T-S K-OW0 IH1-T-S T-R-AY1-K S-M-IY1 T-UW1 B-IY1 L-EH1 S-AH1 V-AH0 M-AO1 R-AH0-L K-AH0-N S-ER1 N-AH0-N D-M-AO1 R-AH1 V-AE1 N-EH2 K-AH0 N-AA1 M-IH0-K K-AA1-N S-ER0 N-AE2-N-D D-IH1 D-Y-UW1 JH-AH1-S T-AW1 T-AH1-V K-Y-UH2 R-IY0 AA1 S-AH0 T-IY0


... what else might you look at? just again, kind of out of my own personal curiosity.

W-AH1 T-EH1-L S-M-AY1 T-Y-UW1 L-UH1 K-AE1-T JH-AH1-S T-AH0 G-EH1-N K-AY1-N D-AH1 V-AW1 T-AH1 V-M-AY1 OW1-N P-ER1 S-IH0 N-IH0-L K-Y-UH2 R-IY0 AA1 S-AH0 T-IY0


i've looked a lot at reformer literature...

AY1 V-L-UH1-K T-AH0 L-AA1 T-AE1 T-R-IH0 F-AO1-R M-ER0 L-IH1 T-ER0 AH0 CH-ER0


... language, and also things like city, like municipal ordinances that come down in the early 20th century...

L-AE1-NG G-W-AH0 JH-AH0-N D-AO1-L S-OW0 TH-IH1-NG Z-L-AY1-K S-IH1 T-IY0 L-AY1 K-M-Y-UW0 N-IH1 S-AH0 P-AH0 L-AO1-R D-AH0 N-AH0-N S-IH0-Z DH-AE1-T K-AH1-M D-AW1 N-IH0-N DH-AH0 ER1 L-IY0 T-W-EH1-N T-IY0 AH0-TH S-EH1-N CH-ER0 IY0


... is rooted in language of morality, but what...

IH1 Z-R-UW1 T-AH0 D-IH0 N-L-AE1-NG G-W-AH0 JH-AH1 V-M-ER0 AE1 L-AH0 T-IY0 B-AH1 T-W-AH1-T


i don't mean to suggest that all reformers have

AY1 D-AA1-N T-M-IY1-N T-UW1 S-AH0-G JH-EH1-S-T DH-AE1 T-AO1-L R-IH0 F-AO1-R M-ER0-Z HH-AE1-V


ulterior...ulterior motives, sure, sure.but i would like to suggest that sometimes rhetoric and...

AH2-L T-ER0 IH2 T-ER0 Y-AA1 R-AH0 L-IY0 M-OW1 T-IH0-V-Z SH-UH1-R S-AO1 R-AH0 B-AH0 T-AY1 W-UH1 D-L-AY1-K T-UW1 S-AH0-G JH-EH1-S-T DH-AE1-T S-AH0-M T-AY1-M Z-R-EH1 T-ER0 IH0 K-AH0-N-D


... that sometimes moral rhetoric can hide economic interests, which i think is true to our present day.speaking of bringing projects into the current day,

DH-AE1-T S-AH0-M T-AY1-M Z-M-AO1 R-AH0-L R-EH1 T-ER0 IH0-K K-AE1-N HH-AY1 D-EH2 K-AH0 N-AA1 M-IH0 K-IH1-N T-R-AH0-S-T S-W-IH1 CH-AY1 TH-IH1-NG K-IH1-Z T-R-UW1 T-UW1 AW1 ER0 P-R-EH1 Z-AH0-N-T D-AY2-S P-IY1 K-IH0 NG-AH1-V B-R-IH1 NG-IH0-NG P-R-AA1 JH-EH0-K-T S-IH0-N T-UW1 DH-AH0 K-ER1 AH0-N-T D-EY1


... tell me how your project at large...

T-EH1-L M-IY1 HH-AW1 Y-AO1-R P-R-AA1 JH-EH0-K T-AE1 T-L-AA1-R-JH


tell me what we can learn from your project about today's society, or how does this apply today?

T-EH1-L M-IY1 W-AH1 T-W-IY1 K-AE1 N-L-ER1-N F-R-AH1 M-Y-AO1-R P-R-AA1 JH-EH0-K T-AH0 B-AW1-T T-AH0 D-EY1-Z S-AH0 S-AY1 AH0 T-IY0 AO1-R HH-AW1 D-AH1-Z DH-IH1 S-AH0 P-L-AY1 T-AH0 D-EY1


well, i think on one level...

W-EH1 L-AY1 TH-IH1-NG K-AA1 N-W-AH1 N-L-EH1 V-AH0-L


... beyond that, just the idea that who we consider criminal changes...

B-IH0 AA1-N-D DH-AE1-T JH-AH1-S-T DH-AH0 AY0 D-IY1 AH0 DH-AE1-T HH-UW1 W-IY1 K-AH0-N S-IH1 D-ER0 K-R-IH1 M-AH0 N-AH0-L CH-EY1-N JH-AH0-Z


... over time and does not necessarily reflect demographics.

OW1 V-ER0 T-AY1 M-AH0-N-D D-AH1 Z-N-AA1 T-N-EH2 S-AH0 S-EH1 R-AH0 L-IY0 R-AH0 F-L-EH1-K-T D-EH2 M-AH0 G-R-AE1 F-IH0-K-S


or what's happening kind of in the historical record.

AO1 R-W-AH0-T-S HH-AE1 P-AH0 N-IH0-NG K-AY1-N D-AH1 V-IH0-N DH-AH0 HH-IH0-S T-AO1 R-IH0 K-AH0-L R-EH1 K-ER0-D


even the contemporary record, just think about the kind of language we use to identify who is criminal and who isn't and...

IY1 V-IH0-N DH-AH0 K-AH0-N T-EH1-M P-ER0 EH2 R-IY0 R-EH1 K-ER0-D JH-AH1-S-T TH-IH1-NG K-AH0 B-AW1-T DH-AH0 K-AY1-N D-AH1 V-L-AE1-NG G-W-AH0 JH-W-IY1 Y-UW1-Z T-UW1 AY0 D-EH1-N T-AH0 F-AY2 HH-UW1 IH1-Z K-R-IH1 M-AH0 N-AH0 L-AH0-N-D HH-UW1 IH1 S-AH0-N T-AH0-N-D


...why we are quicker to want to convict some people of certain crimes, but not other people.

W-AY1 W-IY1 AA1-R K-W-IH1 K-ER0 T-UW1 W-AA1-N-T T-UW1 K-AH0-N V-IH1-K-T S-AH1-M P-IY1 P-AH0 L-AH1-V S-ER1 T-AH0-N K-R-AY1-M-Z B-AH1 T-N-AA1 T-AH1 DH-ER0 P-IY1 P-AH0-L


which obviously has a lot to do with race, class, sexuality, and gender.

W-IH1 CH-AA1-B V-IY0 AH0 S-L-IY0 HH-AE1 Z-AH0 L-AA1-T T-UW1 D-UW1 W-IH1 DH-R-EY1-S K-L-AE1-S S-EH2-K SH-UW0 AE1 L-AH0 T-IY0 AH0-N-D JH-EH1-N D-ER0


and so, i think that's kind of the broader takeaway that i've gotten from this work.

AH0-N-D S-OW1 AY1 TH-IH1-NG-K TH-AE1-T-S K-AY1-N D-AH1-V DH-AH0 B-R-AO1 D-ER0 T-EY1 K-AH0 W-EY2 DH-AE1 T-AY1-V G-AA1 T-AH0-N F-R-AH1-M DH-IH1 S-W-ER1-K