Kai Interviews Simon about Music Business Hacks
May 27, 2018 by smartygirl Leave a Comment
Get her margarita right. Kai likes her margaritas on the rocks not blended.
Who is Kai?
She played Ani Difranco songs on her guitar for a San Jose State University audience. That's how she met Renee Marchol, SmartyGirlLeadership Editor-in-Chief, years ago. Kai Shuart caught up with Renee over a visit together at Seattle's MoPop music and pop culture museum recently.
"I really like the ideas of a post-show routine and using the scientific method to boost your career," said Kai.
So our Editor-in-Chief invited Kai to be our blog's guest music reporter and do a bit more research this past Spring. She read the book Music Business Hacks and listened to a couple of Music Business Hacks podcast episodes. She came up with interview questions for the author and musician Simon Tam.
Simon Tam's Music Business Hacks book cover
Simon Tam's Music Business Hacks Podcast
You can hear the audio here. You can also read the transcript below.
[Begin Transcript]
Hey! This is Simon from the Music Business Hacks podcast and author of Music Business Hacks.
Kai's questions for Simon Tam:
Post-show routine
How do you frame bad news? You gave the example of getting banned from a club. How did you frame it so that nobody is afraid to book you, or do you embrace the bad publicity?
Using the scientific method
It makes sense to focus group things like album covers, merch design etc but how do you make room for spontaneity and an individual voice?
Treating rehearsal like a performance is a great idea
How does one get out of the mindset that a rehearsal is "just messing around"?
Is it just creating a firm space/time boundary to hone your craft or do you think it's something else?
Simon's reply:
So in terms of framing bad news when it's an internal culture like band members, publicists, management or that sort of thing I frame any kind of news as honestly as possible.
If we are in fact being banned from a club if something didn't go well I think it's important to be honest and have that conversation with ourselves to figure out how we can prevent things from happening again. What can we do to improve? I don't like just to criticize folks just for bad behavior or to focus on the negative. I always like to propose a solution for whatever we are encountering.
In terms of publicity. I think about it in terms of how our most dedicated fans would view it. When you think about perspective I think about what our deepest supporters would think and kind of go from there. Another way of thinking about it is: What would my mom say? What would my best friend say? If they have my back behind whatever happens then I have a feeling that that in a broader picture our audience will most likely be supportive as well.
So back over 10 years ago. My band, the Slants, got banned from a club for breathing fire. Now it was something we cleared with the venue in advance. We had the emails to prove it.
The stage manager freaked out on us while we were on stage and basically canceled the show. The audience in the club was so upset because they clearly didn't see any issues that they all left which meant the room was completely empty for a band that they paid a lot of money to be there for after us. There were only two people and they were both in my band because we felt bad for what happened. Everyone else went down the street to hang out. We were just getting some drinks and food and hanging out with everybody.
So in that incident, I knew that it was the wrongful actions of the stage manager. And because they tried to twist it on it us we decided. Let's go ahead and address the issue with honesty and truth. However, people want to view it they can. Of course, immediately after that incident, we got offers from several different venues saying, "Hey, do you want to burn down our club?"
They saw what happened. They thought it was really inappropriate of that venue. They wanted to support us.
Another incident would be when we joined a battle of the bands event. Now, I normally hate battle of the bands events. I think they're cheesy and a system to create gains for promoters usually.
So we entered basically on this premise. We would stay in as long as we like but the moment we felt uncomfortable or we didn't like what was happening we would drop out. We entered a competition to win a chance for a million dollar recording contract as well as a spot on a reality tv show kind of like American Idol but for touring bands.
Long story short we started killing it every single round. We got first place. We weren't necessarily doing everything they asked us to. They really wanted bands to sell tickets for them but we felt uncomfortable charging people $15 to $20 per ticket for a four-song set from us and force them to watch six other bands. We didn't care about that. We just thought our music should stand on its own.
By the time we got to the semi-finals the president of the record label actually flew out to come to see us specifically. They gave us the contract. So well before this contest had ended, well before the reality tv show which was supposed to have this Grand prize we were offered the prize. I looked at the contract, had an attorney look at it. It was terrible so we decided to drop out of the competition.
Just saying, "Hey this isn't for us. But that's ok."
The label instead decided to twist it on it on us saying we were disqualified. That we somehow tried to cheat or something like that.
So we put out a press release telling the truth that we rejected the million dollar contract. That the system was rigged. This multi-million company was trying to bully this small independent band. Well, it didn't go well for them despite how much publicity and power they had.
People liked the story of the underdog. They wanted to support the band That was struggling and they wanted to support what was happening with what we are doing.
So I think it's important to consider context. What are your greatest supporters going to think? Because in the end, that's all that matters. We don't really care about the general public per say. We care about the people who are on board with us, who support us, who understand our values and know what we stand for. If they're with us then it doesn't matter if the overall sentiment and press is bad. Overall we believe that sentiment will change especially if you have supporters willing to fight for you.
Okay, in regards to the scientific method. It makes sense to focus group things like the album cover and merchandise. How do you make room for spontaneity and individual voice?
The scientific method is something really amazing and underappreciated. Very underutilized in the music industry and marketing as well. I think it's an important way to hone your voice because you get to test out what works what doesn't.
It's simply a hypothesis. Then you have a specific set of measurements to see if your hypothesis proves true or not so it doesn't actually remove spontaneity it supports it. You can spontaneously think: would this idea work? Of course, you measure it.
The most important part of the scientific method is that you actually measure. Too often I see artists trying to make room for spontaneity by putting out messaging, by trying something new on stage and not actually taking the time to dissect. What worked about it and what didn't?
So whenever people want to have a specific individual voice, spontaneous expression, or anything like that. It should be done with a larger set of goals in mind, a hypothesis in mind. There should be some kind of tracking system. Hey, does this work or not?
For example, if you look at top performing artists out there. People who are performing at the top of this industry when they actually have shows there are two ways to go about it.
One, it's the same show every single time. There are certain bands that play the exact same set. The artists say the exact same thing night after night. They might change the city name or have something that addresses the audience at that specific concert but they are doing it the exact same way they always do.
Then there are artists who change it up every night. For example, Ringo Starr kind of customizes the set each night. They take time to have a long conversation and narrative with the audience. Interact with the audience and kind of play off of it. However, those skills have been honed over time. While the words might change the approach is the same because they've developed a method that has been based on what works.
For example, learning how to talk to the audience about certain topics. Depending on what the audience responds with they can play off of that. But there still some kind of testing involved. If a show bombs or specific moments that don't work. They change it for the next time.
So in terms of the scientific method and the performing arts comedy is the best example of this because you can see how people hone their voice over time. This is why even high profile comedians like Dave Chappelle and Robin Williams would do this. They go to smaller more intimate comedy clubs to test out jokes to see how they play out and to hone those jokes over time sometimes on tour before launching it into say a comedy special. You can oftentimes find Youtube of comedians evolving their jokes over time.
Well, there's no reason why musicians shouldn't be doing the same thing. In terms of their performance or creating music. It's all about goals, measurement and testing out what works and what doesn't work.
Third question here. I guess this would be really related to treating rehearsal like performance.
How does one get out the mindset that rehearsal is just messing around?
If you want to change mindset around rehearsal beyond just a spontaneous practice or anything else like that you have to set ground rules. This is why I always emphasize that every band should have an inner-band agreement. There should be a set of expectations, rules to follow as well as goals you all agree on. If everybody has same expectations of what you want to accomplish from the music industry and rehearsal then all of sudden that changes the mindset of those entering the room. If you have a specific set of determined hours for rehearsal people know there are limited hours and make the most of it. So you can use this to say, "For two hours we're gonna play through this set twice or three times. We're going go through our talking points and dissecting that guitar solo in the fourth song."
You create those expectations in advance so people don't see it as a time to mess around. Of course, there's something to be said for time set aside for creative expression. Let's get together, jam and see what comes up. Let's try to write songs. I think those are different times.
But a rehearsal is preparing for the live show. Whatever you do, the rehearsal could also be approached with the scientific method as well. Like we have hypothesis or theory that we believe if we rehearse the set this way that we can time down to 29 minutes flat. You start working on that idea until you get to that point.
Thank you so much for having me. [End Transcript]
YouTuber Musician Teaching Artist Kai Shuart
Guest Music Reporter Bio
This debut article of Kai Shuart as music journalist is dedicated to her dad who inspired her love for music.
Kai is a pop culture expert, teacher of children and a musician. She sees music as a way to address uncomfortable subjects with a safe buffer.
She cites Tori Amos' "Me and a Gun" as a prime example. A musician can choose to use real, traumatic experiences and change the details a bit or even create a character in order to confront the uncomfortable at a safe distance.
Teacher of children? Yep. Kai is a Montessori teacher on the West Coast. A typical day that includes a music curriculum? In 2018, she brings in her drum collection and thumb piano into the classroom.
Interested in hearing teacher, performer, singer-songwriter Kai Shuart play? If you are able to catch her live, meet her first over a pescado burrito to hear her thoughts on practicing daily habits. Meanwhile, subscribe to her emerging YouTube channel.
Shutting Down Hecklers Using Humor and Compassion: An Interview with The Slants
November 30, 2016 by Renee Marchol Leave a Comment
Photo Credit: The Slants photographed by Sarah Giffrow
You may have heard Simon Tam's TED talks. You may have skimmed news headlines about the Asian American musicians' petition to the Supreme Court for their trademarked band name: The Slants. Rocking out and social justice are just some facets of these SmartyFellas.
Readers of our blog can identify with receiving negative criticism for one reason or another for pursuing their bucket list.
In this article, readers receive a behind-the-scenes look at how these creatives have fun together and do individual self-care to recharge despite hecklers. These answers were given to our Editor-in-Chief Renee Marchol during the weekend that The Slants performed at the anime convention Aki Con 2016 in the Seattle area.
What would you share with young Asian American male musicians dealing with heckling? What is something you tried that you learned wasn't sustainable?
Ken: You can't listen to others trying to bring you down. Trolls and haters can be really scary if you dwell on the harmful words that they are intentionally throwing at you.
Listening to criticisms is one thing but you can't hang onto words that are simply an opinion.
From my own experiences, hecklers who lash out might be jealous about the way you are living, making music or pursuing your art, and they are upset that they are not where you are. Other hecklers might just be curious to see how you react.
Don't be afraid to put yourself out there! If you only think about the people that are bringing you down, you'll forget about the people who always want the best for you!
Joe: I think it somewhat depends on the genre of music you play. If you are playing edgy music or music that demands attention, then I would say stand up for yourself and get good at shutting down hecklers. If you think you are rockstar, then the bulletproof attitude against hecklers will only benefit you. On the other hand, I feel like with a more pop friendly band like us, we stand up for ourselves but we are not antagonistic. There's definitely plenty of negativity thrown at us but our response is often compassionate and with a sense of humor. We enjoy what we do and are lucky to get to play music and a heckler isn't going to change that. The unsustainable thing would be to get angry about it and hang on to that anger. That is what the heckler wants and it creates an air of negativity that drags everyone down. It's much better to throw out a witty comeback ("…the Jerk store called and they are running out of you"), get a laugh and go on having fun.
Yuya: Being a successful musician is already hard enough, but being Asian American in the music industry is an added hurdle. I wish this wasn't the reality for us in 2016, but it is. Heckling comes with the territory. We've all dealt with it at one point or another, and if it hasn't happened to you yet; it more than likely will at some point in your musical career. Don't let them get to you. Let your art and talent speak for itself. We're just not well represented in the music industry yet. The more of us there are, the better off we'll be in the public arena that is the music industry. People are typically uncomfortable with what they don't understand. This is where I tend to think heckling comes from. As Asian American musicians, we can use our music to help people understand. We can speak on panels, and do these types of interviews to help shed light on who we are. We need to support each other, and help each other succeed. We still have to work hard to normalize the thought of Asian American musicians in a very non-Asian U.S. music industry.
When dealing with hecklers in the past, I got bent out of shape, got angry and lashed out at the person for saying whatever they said. I learned over time that it doesn't work nor does it solve anything, it just cements those stereotypes even deeper into their minds. And really, a reaction is what they're wanting from you. These people tend to be bullies and just want to make people feel bad about themselves (likely because they're insecure about themselves, but that's a completely separate topic). Getting angry about it and lashing out isn't sustainable. Instead help educate these people. If they're not open to that, just ignore them. Not everyone is going to accept you, and that's okay. The more people we educate through our music and interviews, the easier it'll be for us to succeed as musicians.
Simon: Rejection and ridicule are two things that every artist will face in their career. That is unavoidable. When that is combined with Asian American identity, it is only compounded. This is usually what happens when people are disrupting the system, when we are challenging social conventions about art. My advice is to always find a way to positively use any criticism or heckling to make better art. Remember, the best form of "revenge" isn't striking back, but success. Rising above that noise takes discipline, self-care, and compassion – the cruelty lashed out by others is often rooted in pain and ignorance.
Years ago, our band appeared on stage at a bar in Bakersfield, CA. People in the audience actively taunted us – "Why are there so many Asians on stage? They even have keyboards, how cliché!" However, they quickly shut up when our bombastic stage show kicked off with fire-breathing and the most energetic show the venue had ever seen. Insults turned into apologies. You aren't going to win everyone over, but you can certainly use your music to speak in ways that words may not be able to address. Good art can spur a conversation; great art can disarm those with malicious intent.
The other thing I would recommend is finding a community who can support you. Instead of only feeding upon toxic messages, connect with others who understand your struggles who are able to inspire and lift you up. And if you don't know any other Asian American musicians locally, feel free to connect with our band anytime.
How do you recover after performing entertainment and/promoting a social cause? How do you create balance and do self-care?
Ken: Vocal warms ups, cool downs, 4 gallons of water and hot tea! I appreciate the fact that my bandmates know that sleep is the best form of recovery for me. (They also know it's my favorite). Thankfully, good technique can carry you far if you are disciplined enough.
Being with the band has made me feel like an activist. We have an anti-racist, all loving message, so when we are at events I feel charged up from all the positive energy and vibes.
Joe: Some of us seem to be machines that could work 24/7 but I usually need a week to recover from touring. That usually means sleeping in and binging on Netflix. I try to eat well and exercise, even on the road, and the habits keep me in check. I still constantly work on music and other creative endeavors, along with paid gigs, but I know all about burnouts and have learned when my body and mind need a break. As I'm answering this question, I actually just spent the last three weeks working on a movie, editing it in LA, then flying back for our Seattle show and slept maybe an average of 4 hours a night for this entire time. Agenda for the next few days? Finishing Luke Cage and catching up on the CW superhero shows.
Yuya: After a performance, I like to sit or lay down and listen to soft jazz. It's like the Yin-Yang effect for me. Stepping off stage after a show; I'm still pretty hyped up from the adrenaline. It's nice to able to close my eyes, relax, take some deep breaths, lower my heart rate, and just get lost in the music. Right now, I listen to a lot of Jane Monheit. If you like jazz and you've not listened to her music yet, you should. You'll enjoy it.
Simon: I believe that the best cure is often prevention – whether it is direct social justice work or playing on stage, I believe in keeping the mind sharp and body healthy by eating well, exercising frequently, getting good sleep, and meditating. It's all-too-easy to solely live in a work/production mode, but the quality of our work (both in terms of art as well as activism) is greatly affected by these areas, so it's important to be disciplined enough to take care of ourselves first. That being said, there's nothing like a hot bowl of pho after a tour to feel refreshed!
What is a question you'd wish reporters would ask more often? What is the answer to that question?
Ken: "How do we like each other in the band?" The only reason why I say this is because with a new line-up change, there are completely new personalities that make up the band. That being said, this line up is awesome! We are ready to put in work and hungry for what is to come.
I'm glad that we can enjoy ourselves and each other when we are on stage, but it feels good just laughing hard or eating food together on the road as well. Plus, it's fun messing with Simon every once in a while.
Joe: I wish it was this question! "Ask yourself a question and answer it." My brain is pretty random and I'd have fun with something like that. Like right now, it would be "How do you feel about the current state of Bigfoot sighting videos?" My answer would be: It's 2016! Why are there still videos online of sightings that look like they shot it with an Etch A Sketch?? If you are a Bigfootologist, get a real camera! Even Go Pros can do 4k! Come on!!
Yuya: "Who are you outside of music and activism?" My answer: I'm engaged to my better half, Emily, and we have 5 children. (You didn't read that wrong, I did actually say 5!) I'm a lover of Netflix, and especially sleep (even though I still can't seem to get enough of it, parents know exactly what I'm talking about!) Other than that I read occasionally, mostly philosophy/self-improvement type books. I love to travel and embark on new adventures. I'm really looking forward to my first tour with The Slants, and getting to experience places I've not yet seen. If you don't follow us already, follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and our website. If we're coming through your neck of the woods on tour, come out to our show and hang out with us! (Shameless plug, I know, I know lol.)
Simon: "Why do you continue to play in The Slants when the music industry is so difficult, especially for Asian Americans to find success?" For me, this band is equal parts art as well as activism. I'll never forget when I first made The Slants public on Myspace, which gives you an idea of how old this project is now. Within a few hours, an Asian American teenager wrote the page to thank us for giving them hope and a reason to be proud of their heritage. Ten years later, we're still empowering communities around the world. It's an incredible honor and privilege to serve our people. Plus, it's incredibly fun.
What's next for the band creatively as a bucket list item? Who would you like to collaborate with?
Ken: My bucket list consists of touring with a big name, making big scale music videos and release more full length albums! I would love to collaborate with many artists and not only Asian American ones. Some would be Maroon 5, Weezer, Bruno Mars, and Far East Movement. Actually those are just some my bands that I'm into right now!
Joe: My actual band bucket list has opening for Tegan and Sara as the next item. Also touring Japan or the UK. And playing at a festival that Radiohead is playing at (even if we played in the parking lot). For collaboration, I'd really like the band to work with some visual artist and filmmakers. I've met quite a few amazing filmmakers hosting and attending film festivals and would love to line things up with them. To name drop a few… Dave Boyle, William Lu, Steven Kung… we want to be in your movies!
Yuya: Getting the new album written and recorded! I'd like to collaborate with Far East Movement. They're doing great things for Asian Americans, and The Slants are doing the same. Imagine what we can do together! We could really make a statement for our causes.
Simon: Right now, we're wrapping up writing and recording another album. After that, we'll be heading to the Supreme Court before tackling an extensive tour going from Portland, OR to Portland, ME and back. I would love to collaborate with a number of non-music (Asian Pacific Islander) API artists to do some great work, including comedians and authors like Margaret Cho, Hari Kondabolu, Chang-rae Lee, Gene Yuen Lang, and more! On the music side, I would love to collaborate with Dave Gahan (Depeche Mode), Max Martin (songwriter), or Rick Rubin (producer).
Renee Marchol lives on the West Coast. She continues to collaborate on this bucket list blog by interviewing subject matter experts with Anthropology Scholar Erica Tyler, who is currently studying on the East Coast. Renee is currently taking beginning adult breakdancing in Bruce Lee's Seattle Chinatown.