Forums - General Discussion - Culture and Islam; coinciding with current events
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miz1q2w3e
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miz1q2w3e on 12 September 2010
Legend11 said:
FaRmLaNd said:
I loathe cultural relatavism.
I don't care what you're culture is, what you're religion is or what you're philosophical ideology is. If you do a practice that is harmful or an unwarranted restriction of a persons rights, and if this can be clearly shown through the use of logic, reason and evidence then I will condemn it at every single opportunity. I have no issue with the parts of culture that enrich life, such as art, music, food, dance, architecture etc. But the moment something is overtly harmful, an instrument of segregation, an unwarranted restriction of rights etc then you will find me in opposition intellectually.
I agree 100% with your post and quoted it because I think it deserves it. I'm tired of the people making excuses for the way some Islamic countries and people act by saying that we either don't understand or worse that we're the reason (both of which are condescending and insulting).
I agree completely.. though in the hasanwhy's defence, i don't think that's what he meant by his post/thread
He's saying that you shouldn't blame all members of a group for something that a small number of them did which i think is true to a point, unless that group anctually condones said action
hasanwhy
hasanwhy on 12 September 2010
If a behavior is warranted as being criminal than it will be fought against by either followers of other cultures or by members of that religion, culture, or school of thought. Someway or somehow, hopefully. Although I understand the argument you are trying to make you certainly just cannot view the world by saying this is right and this is wrong. This type of view will just obstruct your logical reasoning behind as to why they are being performed and to how it began et cetera, et cetera, and et cetera.
Cultures throughout the world aren't perfect. There are good and bad aspects about each of them, but to simply say that a person's decision isn't influenced by a certain portion of the culture that they reside in isn't really right. Its much easier to just say that such and such is wrong then leave it be. Quite understandable.
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Anyone would sound like a jerk if they said,"Hey! You know what? Your the reason why this all happened." Thank fully, I've never really met anyone who gave me such an ignorant answer.
What I tell everyone is that there is more depth to behind a person's decision than merely just stating its wrong or right. Then the question of what is right or wrong comes to play and how our perception of morality is built and displayed. And does our perception of equal treatment or morality defeat theirs? Are we better then them just because we were raised a couple thousand miles away? Tough questions to answer.
ph4nt
ph4nt on 12 September 2010
I don't particularly mind muslims in general as people, I was good friends with one and had a lot of good times with him in high school. HOWEVER, I do have problems with all these muslims claiming "oh, it is a religion of peace, you are just ignorant!" which is complete bull****. If I am not mistaken, Islam means "submission to god" or something like that...oh and the whole part of the Qur'an(sp.?) that pretty much says "If you can't convert them, do whatever it takes to kill them" and then they get all offensive when you call them out on it. I honestly thought it was just propoganda at first, but it is there. Obviously since changing any religions holy book is pretty much impossible for culturual / traditional reasons, they can't simply remove it from the book, I can see that. However, I would wish they would stop covering it up like it's not there.
There are many people of varying religions who do crazy stuff these days, but it just so happens that when muslims do these things, pretty much every time they are doing it in the name of the qur'an, and they are doing what the qur'an specifically tells them to. That is what pisses people off, that is why people are so "intolerent" and that is why it's going to be extremely difficult to get rid of that image.
I can't comment if other religions have these types of things within their books, I don't particularly enjoy reading them, however I did some research on the Qur'an and here are some excerpts I found. I'm not sure of the structure or how you reference these.
"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." This one came from 9:5 Yusufall, not sure what that means.
edit: here is another one.
"Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection." 9:29
both can be found here: http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/009.qmt.html#009.005, it's USC's website so it's pretty credible.
There could easily be such passages from other books, I honestly have no idea, but since muslims are so vocal, it's much easier for things like this to hit the mass media. No amount of spinning, hidden meanings, interpretations or anything, can get them out of this. It's there in every single book and people will react strongly to it.
It's sad to see a big group of people be hated on, but honestly I don't think they should be surprised. There's people in every group who give them a bad name for the rest of the world.
ph4nt said:
I was actually discussing this with a friend the other day believe it or not. You are not alone, apparently. Many people have mis-interpreted many verses within the Quran.
One of the dilemmas that I faced while I was learning about Islam was understanding the almost contradictory phrases that was present in it. The Qu'ran spoke of peace saying that whoever shall murder an innocent would get the punishment equivalent to killing every living being on the planet. I loved that saying, but then I would come across certain phrases for war. Which then confused me as to why it would contradict itself like that. I then went to my local Imam and asked him of why the Quran was like that.
He stated that I only read that tiny phrase as if was meant to be read alone, I would be missing the big picture. If you continue to read on and try to fully grasp what the verse was speaking of, then it would make sense. There are certain conditions and wisdom behind those words that I didn't pick up before. I came across a certain verse which said to kill them wherever they confront you. I read it as it was so I understood as just that, but if you continue reading it says for though killing is sinful, wrongful persecution is even worse. And that if the hostility should cease as the conflict ends. And if a believer ever must pick up an armed weapon it must be done so for defense and not to quench ones thirst for vengeance.
Verses like these have been mis-interpreted by Muslims and non-Muslims alike.
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FaRmLaNd on 13 September 2010
hasanwhy said:
And why shouldn't I be allowed to criticise other cultures? We're all human.
I can and I will say what is right and wrong, I will not accept a call to tradition as a warranted reason for something to exist. If a female is married off at 6 then I will object. Do you know why? Becuase medically it can be shown that its damaging to a person that isn't fully developed. Logic, reason and EVIDENCE.
Why would the proponents of certain cultural practices need to hide behind cultural relatavism? Thats an attempt to shut down an argument for no good reason. Why be so insecure? If they think what they do is right, then they can argue it with me and if they can show me that, then fine. I will no longer resist something.
Crimes such as rape or marriage of an underage girl is wrong. I agree that it is not right and should be seen as a crime in that culture.
You can criticize a culture all you want. You are a free individual who has the right to do so. But where are you basing your judgments and perception of right and wrong from? From your culture. And does your culture defeat the culture of other humans who live farther away from you and don't misbehave in such activities?
I agree with you that atrocities that involve sexual acts with a child is wrong and shouldn't be allowed within a culture. But If I were take my views of right and wrong and criticize some other culture that do not have such acts, wouldn't I seem like a jerk then? Am I right on saying whether that a way that a person lives, legally of course, is wrong because I don't like a certain aspect of it?
What is your story friend? I feel as though if you describe the life that you have lived then I will be better able to understand your adamant stance on this matter. Are you trying to stay away from the culture that were born into?
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Lostplanet22 on 13 September 2010
SamuelRSmith said:
And to what extent do you believe that these cultural differences are linked to prosperity? I mean, the concept of the nation-state has been the backbone of global culture since the 17th century (the idea introduced in the Treaty of Westphalia in 16-something-or-other), and yet, in recent decades, this culture, this idea has been slowly - but surely - fading in the name of greater prosperities.
Other cultures are also fading in the Western World due to greater prosperity - look at the relative diminishing importance of the monarchies in Europe. And, on other levels, the changes in architecture. Equal rights, democracy, and personal freedoms also seem to become of far greater importance as wealth increases.
When I look at the Middle-East, I see that the views of the people are very similar to the views of Europe centuries ago. Borders are still issues worth going to war over, frequent and frivolous use of capital punishment, in-equal rights between ethnicities and genders, strong monarchies and/or dictatorships.
What the Middle-East really needs is a democratic revolution, and it is happening, though maybe only on a small scale for the moment - Iraq and Afghanistan are being pushed forward by the hands of the West, but we are starting to see grass-roots movement for democracy in countries like Iran - remember those protests last year? What Europe showed is that no matter how hard the Government may try, those protests will forever continue until democracy prevails. The Government can merely delay the revolution, it cannot deny it.
When democracy does finally stretch itself across the Middle-East, development will be rapid - secularism will happen over time, though it may not be immediate - and other Western cultural ideas will start to prop up alongside it - equal rights, reduction of capital punishment, etc.
By this point, the Middle-East will probably see capitalism slowly enter throughout - stronger property rights and contract laws - favoured by democratic Governments - will see small domestic businesses popping up and prospering, as well as huge levels of foreign investment.
At this point, I honestly believe that it will only be a couple of decades before the Middle East becomes a dustier version of Europe.
Basically, what I'm getting at is that the huge, gaping differences in culture are strongly linked to the huge, gaping differences in wealth.
Interesting views. You can see that nations that have truly modernized and have tried to bridge the gap between the rich and the poor have become more democratic. I didn't even think about how the economy plays into all this. Good post.
In theory yeah...still the most extremist muslims in Europe are wealthy (depends on what you describe as wealthy though). Also many converts are extremist.
No. Logic, reason and evidence. If thats my own culture then fine. Sure everyone has bias, but I try to separate it from my opinion as much as possible. If a child is molested, then it can hurt them physically and psychologically, and I doubt it would take long for me to find such relevant information to support such a claim. That is not an opinion based on my culture, that is not an opinion based on a call to tradition.
Culture changes, and I would like to help change it. If I was born in Australia 100 years ago, chances are I'd be a white supremacist bigot, a Christain, an ardent monarchist, against gay rights and pro sexual segregation. I'm none of those things, many of them were caused by being born into a later age but many of them are not. Why hide behind cultural relatavism? Culture is not this encompassing thing that cannot change, and if a practace can be shown to be wrong,then that cultural practice is wrong. I certainly am critical of my own culture all the time, but I feel no need to be quiet when its anothers. The media's pressure on Iran has on occasions stopped executions there. Are you going to tell me the that the free press and human rights organisations shouldn't be able to criticise Iran over executing people for stupid reasons?
The only way to understand one another and to improve the world is to have open direct dialogue and a free exchange of ideas. That involves criticism when its applicable.
True, all so very true. If I have described culture as this unstoppable behemoth that we all bow down towards, then I may need to do some editing. Culture can be changed, worked around, and or even forgotten over time, I was merely stating that it helps to define some of our actions. Although as human beings, we tend to shape ourselves and who we want to be. Culture helps points us in a certain direction but that doesn't necessarily mean we have to follow that laid-out path.
And logic, reason, and evidence, isn't just used by yourself alone, I believe lawyers also use them as well. I try using them time to time.
One of the most amazing reasons of being born into this time is the amount of progression that we humans have gone through. In this day and age, we don't have to follow the paths of our fore-fathers no longer. We can make our own future based on our own merit. I truly believe that since we as a race have progressed past old world thinking that we can relieve ourselves of such practices without being shunned, ostracized, or even stoned to death for being different.