I have a problem. I know that this post is very lenghty, but this is not just a personal matter, its a SERIOUS matter, about the church. And also about my friend. I have a friend who is done with the COC and he intends on going to an anglican church.
I am really confused and I will tell his arguments for this, but first I want to talk about a confusing matter.
Since i really need to say what my friend said about the Church leaders and not everything is personally at all, and my english is not that good, i will quote what he said. PLEASE don't report this post, this must to be posted to clarify the WHOLE PROBLEM!
he with the second article to stay !!"
I shocked when i saw this. I know that there are journalists who can lie and not speaking the truth, but i am confused.
let satan deceive him ( i thought he was talking seriously) and than hw said he didn't dream it.
* because i need valid sources to know exactly what he said.
If someone wants me to believe anything, they need to come with valid sources, which prove what the Pope said.
journals in egypt ? what if there were more than one journals ?
.. so easy it's dirty but effective (politics,hidden messages,leaks)"
electoral card and the need to accelerate them out.
He said 'gournal watani' is a christian journal ,,so close to the church. What is this??!
says pope okay with the second article but take care the christians!!
it's really a big issue. First I am going to tell the part of the Pope, then the issue about the personal problem of my friend.
going to an anglican church.
talk about a confusing matter.
that he with the second article to stay !!"
speaking the truth, but i am confused.
said he didn't dream it.
sources, which prove what the Pope said.
journals in Egypt? What if there were more than one journals ?
" Why does I feel so bad about the church?
someone stand and say the same words every time.
myself why pope shenouda say that? because the government told him that . .
says NO for this article but pope shnouda said YES !!!
,i copied this message , hope you understand and don't hate your church ."
all copts if this is true! I don't know if i am tne only one who has this problem..
for my salvation, but if I dont know the truth about this i will get crazy!
- My friend is done with COC , cause of the church leaders.
article of the Egyptian constitution to stay.
-oh i forgot to say this.
represent for the muslims so no problem with it. "
stored weapons to fight muslims one day ! ..
This is the best news i've heard in a LOOONG TIME!
I was just thinking to myself that the Pope ought to support the 2nd Article of the Constitution - and he has.
I know its wrong to be wise in your own eyes.. but , i'm good. I just was hoping he did this.
Go and read the story of Farag Foda or Fawda and tell me if what the Pope did wasn't pure brilliance.
I can't follow a thing your writing. I'm not sure what you are saying.
As your friend, he thinks westernism will make him stimulated and "cool". He is making up excuses because he wants to be western.
No one is holding him in the church.
I'm sure he will be happy in a church that has no sacraments, sanctions homosexuality, and changes dogma and doctrine relative to a given whim of a given convention.
His Holiness, Pope Shenouda, has been under attack from the media. He has been misquoted (intentionally or unintentionally). Watani, as a newspaper/periodical, has been lately manipulating his words to their own aims. There are several members in Watani who attack His Holiness in favor of Satan's Son--Max Michel and his break away church.
No.. i think the Pope is NOT advocating the removal of article 2.
I HOPE he is NOT advocating it!!
It would make sense if he insists on keeping it.
it is true. The Pope and some bishops have opposed a change to the second article but wanted to add to theis article that divorce and marriage of non-muslims should be governed by their own laws.
It is also true that Bishop Moussa has declared that he is honored by his friendship with Selim El-Awa, at least he has never denied the articles attributing such comments to him. He is also friends with Tarek El-Beshry and Muhamed Omara, according to Bishop Moussa 's quotes. The trio of Bishop Moussa's friends are terrorists and have advocated the killing and confiscating of Copt's property as well as subjecting the churches to the state authority.
I am just stating that the news are real and not fabricated.
I do not understand your position. The second article allows for killing Copts without legal punishment according to the sharia. It was the basis of all acquittals of criminals who killed Copts or for their very light punishment. It also allows the confiscation of Copt's property without limits as per sharia. Your hope is misplaced. The appeal to the sharia on behalf of the Church confuses many, maybe you can shed some light on why our church or any minority group would like to live under sharia.
If the Pope advocated the removal of Article 2, he'd have signed the death warrants of every Coptic Christian, including himself.
Moderate Egyptian muslims who have challenged Article 2 of the Constitution, have been killed/murdered in cold blood, WITH THE BLESSING OF AL-AZHAR. Just check out the story of Farag Foda.
If Copts advocated openly the removal of Article 2 and it IS achieved, there will be a huge animosity between us and the Muslim Brotherhood & Gamaa Al Islamiya with Al-Azhar blessing any attacks on us.
Its really the Gamaat Al islamiya who worry me.
If moderate muslims are being killed who have peacefully and wisefully challenged Article 2, then what about us??
the only reason for judging (correct me if I am wrong), wants to stay.
represent for the muslims so no problem with it. ") then those journalists are really out of their minds.
I just find it a bit weird that our church leaders are being so politic with muslims. Okay, what do u think? Do u think that the churchleaders are interfrering too much in politics? What do u think what's his (the Pope) task? Being a spiritual leader or also interfrering with politics? Btw, don't get me wrong, I love the pope a lot and i Love his sermons, but i just get very very confused of what I heard/saw. I am not very intelligent and don't live in Egypt, so i dont know much. I dont mean to offend anyone, but i want to know the truth.
What are the churchleaders trying to do, are they playing politic?
About my friend, actually i dont think it's just that he wants to be western or " cool" , thats not the correct word i think. He told me that he was really attracted to pope's sermons and he still love the coptic hymns a lot and he said he will be still orthodox in his heart and die as a orthodox. I just dont understand him well, i think it has too much to do with the church leaders, i dont know in how far i must believe those journals..
church when i ask why."
So what do u think of the bold sentences?
The Christian way was given to us in the Sermon on the Mount by Jesus Christ. Remember that Love never fails and the Lord promised that He avenges His children. HH has a very wise long term vision and cares for Egypt Christians as well as Muslims. HH is aware of what's going on and accordingly we think he decides what's best for the COC.
Also it is NOT the Church's function to act as a political party but HH Pope Shenouda III gives his realistic guidance that clearly aborts the dangerous traps that were lately being set against the COC. You should be aware that it is the immediate goal and interest of terrorists and also the enemies of Egypt to stir religious based unrest and giving further excuses for blood shed by taking advantage of the religious nature of our people.
I would like to remind you that the 2nd Article has been there since 1923. It also means that the ruler was imposing a Kaliphate, i.e. like any king he would rule till he dies, it is thus not too surprising to expect that presidents would stay in power that long and tried to transfer power to their son. It is a matter of ethics too to leave the Muslim majority to solve this dilemma, because we insist this Article concerns them in the first place. We only ask for an extension to it to clarify and regulate our natural rights.
It is very extreme and very wrong to humiliate our wise Pope and our Bishops. We fully rely on our just Lord not on our human rage or means, and we are not passive citizens either. You all have seen His powerful interventions, haven't you? Peace.
it is true. The Pope and some bishops have opposed a change to the second article but wanted to add to this article that divorce and marriage of non-muslims should be governed by their own laws.
Wow, so it's true? The pope wants the 2nd article to change, or to stay? Or does he want a special article for christians and one for muslims?
John, forgive me, I don't mean to offend the Pope or anyone, I am just saying what me was said and asking for the truth. Of course we must rely on God, and who am I to contradict the Pope??
I just don't understand why does he wants the bad islamic article to stay, isn't that bad for the copts?
I am not trying to be intelligent, no, i am just trying to understand. I mean, how can I be convinced and walking comfortable in my faith, if I don't even understand what's going on (under the table) in our church? The pope is very important to all the copts, I am following him and he is following Jesus, so He is the holiest one we have on earth.
Still hope there are some people who could answer my questions.
I would like to remind you that the 2nd Article has been there since 1923. It also means that the ruler was imposing a Kaliphate, i.e. like any king he would rule till he dies, it is thus not too surprising to expect that presidents would stay in power that long and tried to transfer power to their son.
The second article in its current wording is the product of President Sadat in 1971. He added it to appease fanatics of muslims and islamists and to push the Copts towards extinction as he declared.
Wow, why is anba mousa angry that they arrested the muslim brotherhood? Those muslims killed our christian brothers ???
build an islamic school for the quran!
This "bold" step of establishing a national islamic school by Priest Salib is true. It was opposed by muslims in a very polite yet definitive way. To overcome this, he established a private school and has realized his dreams. Watch this video by Abona Morkos Aziz criticising Priest Salib.
Anba Moussa did not deny his intimate friendship with Selim EL-Awa in his very vaguely worded declaration, which was the reason for the initial surprise by many.
I fully understand all our concerns but it is practically unwise for the Church to ask for the 2nd Article removal, it is much wiser and politically correct to ask for an extension with clear emphasis on our requested rights.
Yes, this article's current wording was abusively manipulated by Sadat who wanted to take a higher religious leadership power to totally subdue all Egyptians. We all know how he persecuted HH thinking the Church would collapse but the Lord showed him His wrath and His glory, allowing it to happen not through us but through the very tools Sadat was using. In fact all good thinkers were convinced of this.
PS: In an interview al Azhar head seemed to accept the proposed idea of an extension to Article 2 but it is not officially declared.
+Marmar+ my reply to you and to your friend is from the teaching of the Bible: "Be angry and do not sin." Love must eventually conquer anger.
Wait, didn't the pope wants the article to stay, not to remove? Or am I being crazy, lol.
Thank u for the further information John.
Let me explain it this way: this article is a kind of taboo in the eyes of extremists and they are using it to flame the people against each other. The Church actually never asked for its removal knowing its severe importance to many Muslims.
The Church is instead seriously requesting to add to this article a sub article (an appendix or an clarifying extension) stating that in the religion related matters non Muslims are to be ruled and judged each group according to the laws of their belief system and their religious book reference.
Thanks, I get this part now i guess.
guys, I'd be careful about what you believe when it comes to people claiming that baba shenouda said this or that. SOOO many things get attributed to him that he never actually says. If you're reading from an arabic paper, be very careful what you believe, they don't have the same standards of journalistic integrity we do in the west.
Yeah, and that's why I don't know what to believe or what not to believe.
What is that issue about that voting card where my friend talked about? Must a copt have one to get married?
And why our Pope Shenouda doesn't want us to visit the Lord's tomb in Ourshalim?
Sorry for the many questions, i just want to organize my thoughts.
For myself and to know how I should respond if my confused friend who intends on leaving the COC, talk about this again.