Stay or Go – Sovereignty
I've been all over the place on this one.
I promise you that I have perused everything that my fellow Charioteers have posted or linked on sovereignty.
My mind on this was eventually made up by Professor Michael Dougan. He is completely right in every respect, in my opinion.
So, it's Leave 1 Remain 2 for me.
I have, however, still not completed my postal vote and might still vote Leave, if only to scunner Brussels.
Author John MackiePosted on June 22, 2016 Categories General
7 thoughts on "Stay or Go – Sovereignty"
What a load of xxxx. If I used that kind of sloppy logic in my working life I wouldn't be here to talk about it.
For instance he says that UK law is supreme. Well for a start there isn't such a thing as 'UK law' there's English and Welsh Law, Northern Irish Law and Scottish Law, so the term 'UK Law is a sloppy generalisation.
"…The United Kingdom has three legal systems.[1] English law, which applies in England and Wales, and Northern Ireland law, which applies in Northern Ireland, are based on common-law principles. Scots law, which applies in Scotland, is a pluralistic system based on civil-law principles, with common law elements…….. – Courtesy of wiki.
However none of our three legal systems is supreme, they can all be overrulledby the ECJ.
It's always a good idea to know the status of pundits like Prof Dougan and not to be misled by their own grandiose descriptions of themselves.
Prof Dougan is "…Professor of European Law and Jean Monnet Chair of Europen Law at Liverpool Law School ……... There are several hundred (?) Jean Monnet chairs at British Universities they are sponsored by the EU in furtherance of the project, so I think we can take much of what Prod Dougan says with a pinch of salt.
JM, I suggest you do your thinking and not rely on the paid for maunderings of folk like Dougan.
Ooh, Jazz! You're a brave fella offering to chop logic with our resident Counsel!
ALL UK law should be sovereign!
I'm more than happy to 'chop logic' whatever that is, with anyone.
All I can do is agree with Jazz – listen to those who are not paid to further the aims of their paymasters.
It is very clear that the laws, rules and regulations of Brussels take precedence over UK law – otherwise why is it impossible to deport those who break UK law? Why do Brussel regulations apply in the UK without passing through Westminster? Why are there limitations on who Britain can trade with?
Just Remember, John, you are not voting to stay in the EU as it is now – but as it is trying to become.
Leave 1; Remain; 0
When European and national laws are in conflict, it is assumed in practice that EU law is supreme. The ECJ made that ruling in 2007 and confirmed in Declaration 17 of the Consolidated EU Treaties. Although some courts, notable the Bundesverfassungsgericht, have argued that sovereignty in principle lies with the people and this is inviolable they have ultimately capitulated to a "union of courts". Thus, in both civil and common law contexts EU law is ultimately supreme.
Jazz: Scots and Northern Irish Law apply in matters pertaining to Scotland and Northern Ireland, but English law applies to international matters.
Hi Jazz.
We do indeed have several systems of law in our country. I am,of course, disappointed that, despite, your extensive research on Wiki, you did not mention two of my own favourites – the Udal law of the Northern Islands and the law relating to the utterly memorable Kindly Tenants of Lochmaben. All of the said systems have, I submit, sod all to do with the issue of sovereignty about which I was posting.
I am happy that I have done all my necessary thinking after researching that issue as fully as I could. My conclusion is that Prof Dougan has made the most sense for me. In particular, I strongly agree when he says:-
'There is no doubt whatsoever that the United Kingdom is a sovereign state under International Law. There is no doubt whatsoever that the Parliament in Westminster is the supreme law making authority in this country.
Conversely, there is no doubt whatsoever that the EU is not a sovereign entity. Far from being a sovereign state, it's not even a sovereign entity. It has only those powers which it has been given under the EU treaties.
And if the UK courts sometimes give priority to EU law in the event of a conflict with domestic law, it's purely because our Parliament has expressly instructed them to do so in our own legislation.'
You might choose to call this maundering. I do not. It seems to me to be a reasoned and compelling argument by a principled and knowledgeable academic. I feel that you diminish your arguments by portraying Prof Dougan as some sort of paid stooge of Brussels.
Boadicea, if I do end up voting to remain I do not think that I am signing a blank cheque for the EU to evolve into a Federal superstate. Our Parliament has passed the European Union Act 2011 which provides for further referendums in the event of any proposed transfer of future treaty change transferring more powers from the UK to the EU.
I thoroughly detest referendums after living through the horrors of the two years leading up to the Scottish one in September 2014. The current one is just as bitter and divisive and there will probably be no resolution when it is over. But, I'm still happy that we will have the chance to vote on any future treaty change before it can be implemented.
goggzilla says:
Goggzilla says, Vote Leave. As to population density, Cumbria is empty, Surrey ain't.
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