Dangerous Discussion
Player Agency & Wasted time at the Interstellar initiative
Thread starter Ouberos
Unknown Zombie
sollisb said:
Well that just makes the whole 'player driven initiatives' as being a big pile of baloney.
Either the players drive the outcome, or..
FDev whatever they want regardless of what players do.
Selling it as player-driven when it is in fact not so, is just disingenuous.
We are driving the initiative. We will apparently decide whether we get a missile rack or a minigun. That is driving the outcome. They didn't lie about it. Just because a choose-your-own-adventure story book only gives you two choices of pages to flip to doesn't mean you didn't choose the adventure.
Don't get me wrong -- you can definitely complain that they are not providing you the level of agency to make the types of decisions that you are interested in, because that would be a valid argument. But to say they offer the players no agency at all to drive the outcome simply because the decision that they gave us the power to make is one you aren't interested in is not a valid argument.
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Ouberos
Unknown Zombie said:
How do we know they aren't changing things to ensure the result of the Initiative is as expected.
It's already happened once.
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Ian Doncaster
Rainbro said:
Again, it's impossible to disprove. But the fact that the influence change occurred with the main server downtime, before the megaships were patched, and the fact that there should be no reason that anything BGS related would occur during that downtime, makes it seem more like the result of a deliberate change.
But, if it was a deliberate change to prevent a Lockdown:
- why affect the other megaship endpoint in Zende at all? (But not the waypoint station in Wregoe?)
- why affect the influence (and to an illegal value) at all, since that's independent of the security slider position?
- why not just quietly stick a batch of positive security transactions in so that at the next tick it ends up only in Civil Unrest and no-one's any the wiser?
Far more plausible I think that the failed attempt to move the megaships corrupted the BGS data for the owning faction in both systems - and then they fixed the megaships manually with the second server reset, but either didn't notice the effects on the BGS, or didn't think it would be a problem to let the normal tick process clean it up in a few hours.
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Rainbro [BUY ARX]
Ian Doncaster said:
why affect the other megaship endpoint in Zende at all? (But not the waypoint station in Wregoe?)
why affect the influence (and to an illegal value) at all, since that's independent of the security slider position?
why not just quietly stick a batch of positive security transactions in so that at the next tick it ends up only in Civil Unrest and no-one's any the wiser?
I agree that the influence changes weren't intended, in either system. As far as I know, this is the first time anything BGS related has occurred during the server shutdown, so it could have been instability resulting from the change to Zende Partners.
As the megaships were also due to move at the same time, I agree that was likely related to the similar changes in Zende. I don't personally believe that that should have anything to do with influence and security, as many faction-owned megaships move in this manner throughout the bubble without causing issues. If it was some sort of corruption caused by the megaships, the securities and economies of the factions in Zende should also have been reset, as Segnen's was in the CG system.
Stacking a batch of positive transactions would certainly be ideal, but it may not have been possible to do so. Depends on the amount of control they have during the downtime, and in any case, flooding the place with an immense number of bounties would show up on the system news. They'd likely need a specific system in place to queue up those transactions for when the server went back online, and to hide their tracks in a way that didn't look off.
I suppose the only way to know for certain would be for Frontier to take some sort of action; maybe reverse it in the case of corruption, or do nothing if it's intended. I'll always believe it's intended until proven otherwise, though, it's certainly a very helpful coincidence. Actually, now that I think about it, this CG doesn't look like it's going to hit Tier 1 anyway. Last time that happened, Frontier called it off, citing a supposed bug. Maybe they'll use that again, would be a neat way out if they need one.
Tobias Saffron
Do no other minor factions have moveable Megaships? I notice the Gnosis is 'controlled' by a separate faction.
Thanks for your explanation Ian Doncaster.
as many faction-owned megaships move in this manner throughout the bubble without causing issues.
Do they?
The non-dockable megaships, of which there are a lot, don't have owners. They come under the temporary responsibility of the controlling faction of the system they enter, but are not technically owned by them.
There are plenty of dockable megaships with owners, but they don't generally move.
Dockable moving megaships, on the other hand, are extremely rare. The only other examples I can think of are:
- the Gnosis, which is owned by its own faction which doesn't own anything else
- the AEGIS megaships (e.g. the Vanguard) which again are owned by their own faction which doesn't own anything else in the system.
Both of those factions are non-influence factions anyway, so resetting their influence and states to zero on a jump would be undetectable and harmless, maybe even desirable as a cleanup mechanism.
This, so far as I know, is the only case where a moving dockable megaship is owned by a faction which also has normal assets in the system, and is able to hold influence and states.
(Please point out if I've missed some other examples, since I'm interested in that sort of thing)
If it was some sort of corruption caused by the megaships, the securities and economies of the factions in Zende should also have been reset, as Segnen's was in the CG system.
Was Segnen's security/economy also reset? They had a big influence jump, but that's logical if the only other faction in the system lost all its influence to a bug - the other factions in Zende did also take a influence jump when Zende Partners went to 0% there (it was just a smaller one since Zende didn't have much influence to start with, and there were more factions to spread it between)
As a secondary faction in a system consolidated to the controller, with no local missions, I would expect Segnen's security/economy sliders to be pretty much at neutral whatever happened. (And there is a small "return to neutral" default movement on the sliders, too, to stop Investments lasting forever on minimal input, as they did at 3.3 release)
I'll always believe it's intended until proven otherwise, though
About the only way to actually prove otherwise would be to push the security slider down on a day when the megaships aren't jumping and see what happens. But if it doesn't go down you'll never be able to tell the difference for certain between Frontier sneaking on some positive security behind the scenes and players having read this thread doing positive security actions.
A strong but not conclusive indication would be if the same influence mess happened next Thursday (Lockdowns can't affect a War CG, and they'll have to manually poke BGS to set up the War anyway, so there'd be no reason at all to do anything at server reset). On the other hand, if that didn't happen it might just mean that they'd fixed the bug, so it wouldn't be evidence the other way.
, it's certainly a very helpful coincidence. Actually, now that I think about it, this CG doesn't look like it's going to hit Tier 1 anyway. Last time that happened, Frontier called it off, citing a supposed bug. Maybe they'll use that again, would be a neat way out if they need one.
Why would they do that? This CG doesn't need to pass anyway - if it fails, Segnen can blame Zende for mismanagement of the system and claim that it would be better if they were in charge, then start the war that way. Sure, there then wouldn't be a Guardian Tech Broker at the outpost ... but that's not essential, and they've quite happily left stations with poor services after partly-complete CGs before.
Conversely, if they actually wanted it to pass, no chance of alternatives ... they could have set the tier 1 level much lower in the first place.
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Ian Skippy
So you tried to in the pool, but the "pool guy" came along behind you and scooped it out with his net.
I know you thought it would be funny, but let's give a quick reality check: "player agency" doesn't necessarily mean "anything goes."
This. It is one of the design philosophies behind ED since day one, where every individual can have a small influence on the galaxy (creating the dynamic setting) while preventing where possible that a handful of 'dedicated' people can screw things up for everything else. Some people desperately want to be the protagonist, single-handedly influencing the story for all. It is cool you want to be important, but this is just not the game for it.
This doesnt mean I know or believe FD god-modded anything, but it does mean I don't care either way. Preventing CGs by pre-emptively messing with the BGS is just lame.
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Ian Skippy said:
This. It is one of the design philosophies behind ED since day one, where every individual can have a small influence on the galaxy (creating the dynamic setting) while preventing where possible that a handful of 'dedicated' people can screw things up for everything else.
This sentence does not make sense to me. Could you expand on it please?
It seems you are suggesting that collaborative gameplay is not achievable in Elite. Have I interpreted your meaning incorrectly or are you just confused and salty you don't have enough friends to attempt something like this?
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Ouberos said:
Have I interpreted your meaning incorrectly or are you just confused and salty you don't have enough friends to attempt something like this?
1) That is not how you talk to people when you want clarification on something.
2) Having read the OP, I am unsure why you think I am the salty one.
Errr, when you make big statements you can't just go "yeah well proof it ain't so!!!!". You make the topic, you claim there is no player agency (which history has shown is already factually false, but dont let that stop the drama) so you get to bring the proof.
You must be new here.
But seriously, your argument doesn't hold water. Either the actions of a Commander are dynamic upon the galaxy and therefore taken in aggregation will have a greater impact on the galaxy or as you suggest the efforts of a group are not meaningful in any way in which case any individual impact must count for nothing.
so you get to bring the proof.
Again, your ignorance of the matter being discussed is showing. The evidence is in the thread you are commenting on and in the system BGS.
Go educate yourself, form a cohesive argument and come back with some mates.
Your logical fallacy is black or white
You presented two alternative states as the only possibilities, when in fact more possibilities exist.
The truth is quite obvious: your actions can have some influence on the galaxy, but you cant have all the influence you are after. That has made your very upset, and resulted in a bunch of posts where you pretend no influence/agency exists because you didn't get the thing you wanted.
I think we're too old for such nonsense, really.
No u.
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Arkadi
Not really sure what position to take in this, but...
it's even stated in the official community goal guide (see here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/community-goal-guide.297632/) that BGS can and may affect CG's.
copy/paste:
ADVERSE EFFECTS OF THE BGS AND PLAYER ACTIONS.
The Background Simulation (BGS) can have a number of effects on the functionality of CGs.
A number of trade CGs in the past have had their market removed by a player group by putting the system into a state of Lockdown, an adverse effect of attacks on clean targets. This effectively stalls a trade CG. Handing in bounty vouchers to the station would be needed to counter the effects.
Another form of disruption to CGs is UA Bombing (Delivering large quantities of Unknown Artifacts to the Black Market of the hosting station). This will cause technical difficulties for the station, again closing some services.
Keeping an eye on the CG thread in Community Goals discussion will keep you up to date on any developments.
So it seems to me one could savely suppose that working the BGS to sabotage a CG is valid gameplay. And I understand how one can be upset if this gameplay is god-modded away.
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Arkadi said:
That is outdated (see the UA bombing change for example). It is still in the CG description though as that is how FD rolls, but you cant really do much with that quote other than that sometimes something may in some way influence something. As it appears, that sometimes is not now, or at least not like this. Probably.
I assume.
CMDR M. Lehman
Those who are cackling with delight that OP's efforts were god-modded away are, in my view, tacitly admitting that they value convenient hacks over skill and knowledge.
Anyone with an ounce of integrity would have said "you know what? I don't agree with what the OP is trying to pull with the II, but I would have relished the chance to oppose him within the rules of the game. Now neither of us will ever get that chance."
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CMDR M. Lehman said:
Those who are cackling with delight that OP's efforts were god-modded away are, in my view, tacitly admitting that they are players who depend on cheat codes over skill and knowledge.
Or alternatively, people who feel that John Doe, who gets to play ED for two hours during the weekend, should be allowed to have some fun with a single CG. It is just a question of how much you want people to influence the galaxy. Some want it to be all the way (so you can permanently blow up Earth, Shinrarta etc). Others, like me, feel that that would be a situation where a few people would have fun at the expense of many more people who would not like that. I am sure some would want there to be no influence at all, and you're just a tiny Han Solo at all times. Most fall somewhere in between. I feel screwing up this CG would not be fun for most people, so I'd rather have the people who are into that muck up something somewhere else.
Reducing that discussion to "u just noob cheater lol" is rather... weak.
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Klarg
That sentence makes perfect sense.
And he is correct.
Anything that Ouberos does in the BGS is counterable by you and all who feel likewise. You do understand that, don't you?
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Northpin
OP's efforts were god-modded away...
There is a strong doubt that FDev god-modded anything here