JAN & DEAN => DON'T YOU JUST KNOW IT => Topic started by: 1WALLY1 on January 28, 2014, 05:00:06 AM
Title: Jan and Dean Outside Projects Pre 66
Post by: 1WALLY1 on January 28, 2014, 05:00:06 AM
8) When I Go To Sleep - Dean Torrence Backing Vocal (1964) Gary Zekley single.
Title: Re: Jan and Dean Outside Projects Pre 66
Post by: Mark A. Moore on January 28, 2014, 08:45:31 PM
Post by: BlackSea on February 03, 2014, 11:15:23 PM
Post by: 1WALLY1 on February 04, 2014, 07:55:55 AM
Post by: BlackSea on February 10, 2014, 02:05:14 AM
Post by: 1WALLY1 on February 13, 2014, 08:42:51 PM
Post by: Admin on February 13, 2014, 11:13:58 PM
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-i-NX0rBkLSo/TxYO7VkU38I/AAAAAAAAARQ/-f1sKaS0GNQ/s1600/aburn_catchin.jpg)
Lol dude. Shoulda stuck with the McParland book the guys never wrong. I'm in the same boat as you. McParland states that Arnies not on this but I got swayed like you when I started reading various articles claiming they were unrealeased tracks.
Lol dude. I was gonna jump in when you posted but too late. Hey we still got the Emerald City unconfined as yet.
Lol dude
Should have stuck with McParland. Sometimes MIU happens.
1WALLY1, your identity and name has been brought to my attention. I'm from the Shire I know a close friend of yours. I'll pass on my contact details onto her to pass onto you. I think I know what youre trying to do in regards to compiling odss and ends in the Jan and Dean catalogue. I've already done this with neat covers. I'll be more than happy to pass them onto you. My informant tells me your a LAW abiding citizen pardon the pun.
How do Black Sea thats a bit of a concern. I think I know who you're taking about. She looks at the discussion board often but not registered. If you could do that thatll be cool. If you got all the Ode AM stuff on one Cd that'll be cool. I was planning on including some of the unreleaed songs from this period. If you got that included thats what I'm after. Same goes for the period inbetween Dore and Liberty.
Thanks, once I get your contact details I'll call you. If you got a shady past cant help youtheres an integrity issue there. LOL.
1WALLY1 if you still got any doubts about the Arnie recordings check out the post Arnie GINSBERG. Smjwalsh worked it out. Seems to make more sense than the McPARLAND entry.
Post dated Feb 2011.
Hi Black Sea yeah read the post thru there I found the site for Alan Burn and his various recordings and an image of the single same one on this post. Listened to a few of the other tracks on there I'm convinced. However, what is concerning is that there are quite a few people who have claimed to have interviewed Arnie. You would think as a result this dilemma with this single would have been resolved via the interview process. I mean Arnie has less than say 10 recordings and one of the obvious questions would be to ask questions pertaining to the songs he's been linked to such as Catching Spies to confirm or omit from his perceived catalogue of recordings. Which makes me wonder the validity of these so called interviews. I've come accross several texts whereby the author has claimed to have had an interview with Arnie and then proceed to list Cathys Crying Heart/Catching Spies as part of his recording output. Instead someone has put the matter to rest by accidently coming accross something on the web to confirm the origins of a song. And for that I thank you smjwalsh who ever you may be.
Hear Here 1WALLY1 never be fooled by the written text until you sight the only thing that matters hard core vinyl. LOL Dude
Dude I know your meaning the guys got a handfuls of songs credited to him you'd think the first thing you'd ask him is questions relating to a few songs not to hard.
Makes you think have these people really interviewed the person or have they printed bogus information lifted from other sources. One could easily say yeah I contacted Don Drowty spoke to him and he said yeah Dean helped me out with the vocals. When your reading a so called one on one interview in the written text with no other sources other than the written text, the validity and rep of the interviewer needs to be established. Amen
Who are the "quite a few people" who have claimed to interview Arnie?
I only know of three people who have interviewed Arnie (including myself). When I interviewed him, at length, he discussed his post-Jan & Arnie recordings, but the Alan Burn songs were not among them.
The confusion got started because Frank Kisko -- a longtime serious Jan & Dean collector -- got hold of an uncredited acetate; and apparently decided it sounded like Arnie, and might be one of his unreleased recordings. He shared that idea with McParland., who mentioned it, but stopped short of saying it was Arnie.
Other fans took the ball and ran with it, posting videos, etc.
But the Tuesday disc erases all doubt.
Well thats the part that doesnt make sense. You claim you intrrviewed Arnie Ginsburg at length. Just looking at the post on this site you appear to be extremely eager to resolve the matter. If you've interviewed Arnie at lengh it just doesnt add up that you wouldnt ask about the single that so many are scrutinising.
Post by: Salzburg Surf Scene on February 15, 2014, 01:48:37 PM
Quote from: admin on February 15, 2014, 12:54:57 PM
Ha ha... that'd be the videos I put on Youtube a couple of years back!!
To be fair, at the time that was the prevailing view. I would go and change the video titles, but since Google bought up Youtube I haven't been able to log on to my old account. Having said that, they are great songs, and so I don't mind them being attributed to Arnie. Future historians will credit the songs to Arnie 'cos of my videos! In fact, thinking about it, I'll go and post videos attributing Pet Sounds and Rubber Soul to him (I've never been convinced by the musical claims of Wilson and that Mccartney fellow...).
Yeah the videos possibly influenced a lot of people and the fact that they started appearing on bootlegs. But let's be honest here the Stephen McPARLAND books have been in publication since 2000 and I can't understand how someone who conducts an at length interview with Arnie wouldn't ask him a simple question pertaining to these songs to clear the matter up.
Quote from: 1WALLY1 on February 15, 2014, 02:04:01 PM
You are clueless . . . My interview with Arnie Ginsburg took place before the McParland books were even published. Arnie discussed his few later recordings with me; and that's what I go on.
Frank Kisko's acetate came to light subsequently. This kind of stuff is common among collectors and bootleggers. They "speculate" on stuff without doing any research, and it gets spread around. The bootleg liners for "Carnival of Sound" are hilariously inaccurate, for example.
For a while, posted online, there was a bogus disc label image for "Girl, You're Blowing My Mind" showing the songwriter as Pierre Hunt. Not only did Hunt not write the song, but the disc image was "Photoshopped" to look authentic, based on the bogus bootleg liners.
Pierre Hunt was a soul artist who wrote and performed a song called "You're Blowing My Mind," which was released on the Golden Wheels label in 1975. But based on title alone, the bootleggers just ran with him being the writer of Jan's song. It's mind-boggling.
Well you needed to state that in your initial response not after the fact. That's a bit hostile of you "clueless" but seems to run thru all your threads. Well I'll wait till you publish your interview and if its informative as you claim it is , I'll send an apology your way.
Wally this one looks like its gonna turn into a royal rumble I've got your back dude. Keep guard up at all times
Will do Black Sea, I've got it covered man.
McParland all the way until something tops it.
Quote from: BlackSea on February 15, 2014, 03:37:44 PM
I'd love to get hold of his books, but when I got in touch with him he quoted an absurd price for postage to Europe. And I'm just a broke historian who put up videos on youtube... So I'll have to stick to the erroneous posts I put on youtube, and continue to insist Arnie wrote/produced/recorded everything, whatever evidence is presented to the contrary (I'd make a great politician!).
By the way, very glad to see this is the second thread in a couple of days leaning towards violence. This place is getting lively!
Lol dude, You know the best part about all these revelations is learning about the existance of Alan Burn. There's a fuzz tone track on his sight that is extremely good.
I know the books may appear expensive but theyre well worth it. The way I see it for thr cost of a night out you got hours of quality reading.
Just for the record Im not a sales rep for the guy and dont receive a commission.
Maybe Wally can part with some of his cash. Hes well paid and
swimming in it.
Yeah what is with you Black Sea first you expose my occupation now your my financial advisor. Salzburg I'd like to help you out but I got a big mortgage just bought a pad in the Cocos Islands.
I need to head off Black Sea works waiting and you know how it is I've gotta head off to that well paid job you refer to. Keep your guard up at all times and box out of it. Remember Jan and Dean its not a lifestyle it's an attitude.
That last one was corny dude I think you got that lame line from Beverly Hills 90210. That ones unforgivable. Some Beachboys MIU Album coming out of you.
Lol dudes until round two
Post by: Surfin Again on February 15, 2014, 11:38:48 PM
Who cares???
It used to be fun
Collecting used to be fun
The music used to be fun
Publishing a fanzine (yes, in paper form) and later a website used to be fun
Gathering "facts" used to be fun (and it was only secondary if they were historically 100% on the point)
Everyone was excited, when something new appeared. And the McParlands, the Kiskos, The Kellys, the Plummers, The Bossards, etc all did a great job
And both Jan & Dean supported the whole thing
It was ROCK 'N' ROLL
Nowadays, it's only dry historical facts
Jan & Dean as a musical act are not that important. Jan will never get the recognition he deserves. No-one can change the course of rock 'n' roll history as it is written by now
Enjoy their music. That's all that counts
Post by: Admin on February 16, 2014, 12:34:39 AM
Quote from: Surfin Again on February 15, 2014, 11:38:48 PM
Wow, this post is delusional on so many levels.
Sorry, but your "fun" and "excitement" as a collector and bootlegger take a back seat to historical accuracy.
You're a prime example of blind fandom, without any regard to historical integrity. But hey, as long as you're having "fun," that's all that matters, right?
Unfortunately, that tact and attitude has done little for Jan & Dean.
And as far as Jan & Dean "supporting" the whole thing . . . they took what was coming their way, and at the time, it was all they had on the fan level, in terms of trying to further their reach in Phase II, before the Internet (so at least part of it was positive).
But unfortunately for Jan, it also came with getting ripped off by the likes of Mark Plummer and others.
You have to understand that they (meaning mostly Dean) embraced what you were doing as a means of exposure. Facts be damned. Toe the fan-boy party line, or you're out.
When Michael Kelly ended "Sunshine Music" in the early '90s, his 15-year access to Dean Torrence evaporated virtually overnight . . . and the same thing is probably going to happen to David Beard when he ends ESQ in the near future.
Post by: Surfin Again on February 16, 2014, 12:55:54 AM
Quote from: admin on February 16, 2014, 12:34:39 AM
You're a prime example of blind fandom [...] your "fun" and "excitement" as a collector and bootlegger take a back seat to historical accuracy.
So what? You don't seem to remember what music is all about. You're completely lost in historical facts. You are so stubborn within your research that you even start assaulting people who are supposed to buy your future books. As much as I admire the work you put into your books, except the few "blind fans" that are still around and will buy them, they won't be a big seller and they won't change anything because, except the handful of die-hard fans that still hang around on the boards, no-one will care
Unfortunately, that tact and attitude has done little for Jan & Dean
You are completely wrong. Without us, keeping the Jan & Dean name alive back then, no-one would give a damn about Jan & Dean nowadays. I have been in touch with both Jan and Dean (and Jan's dad and Gertie) and I have a lot of letters by them, telling me that they appreciated what we have done
You weren't even around then, so stop judging about us
Quote from: Surfin Again on February 16, 2014, 12:55:54 AM
All of the positives were (and are) appreciated. Bill Berry certainly embraced the exposure for his son . . . but it didn't stop Plummer from ripping Jan off in a major way . . . did it? And Plummer wasn't the only one.
I'm not here to "assault" people . . . but at the same time, anyone who comes on here with ill-informed posts meant to provoke will get an in-kind response.
When something becomes to clinical it becomes boring. Ill informed posts as you state may be totally out there but in the end it may unravel something that no one was aware of. I've never bootlegged anything except in my personal collection just for the purposes of putting tracks from ten pieces of vinyl onto one CD to group a collection of songs that belong together.
The bootleggers that release rare unreleased tracks are the only way you'd probably be able to get a hold of the songs. You yourself would have probably brought bootlegs to hear Carnival Of Sound. So in actual fact your whole background into Jan and Deans Carnival Of Sound would have derived from the bootleg product.
Now 1WALLY1 has put it out there that Dean may be on an emerald city bandits single thru dubious sources but who cares it may unravel something interesting. It is more than likely gonna be wrong, he knows it, and I know it but in the end it doesn't matter because there'll be some one out there that will resolve it just like smjwalsh did. Your clinical historical approach did not resolve the matter it came from someone who accidentally came across something and put a matter to rest.Amen. If your in doubt apply the Salzburg Surf Scene theory, that is put it out there and somehow somewhere someone will work it out and more than likely not thru clinical research. And if all else fails just credit it to Arnie Ginsburg.
Now to more important has anyone purchased any Arnie Ginsburg designed furniture lately.
anyone who comes on here with ill-informed posts meant to provoke will get an in-kind response.
Probably no-one on here (except you) is a historian. Now that's not a bad thing to be at all
But you shouldn't forget that all these people don't have access to stuff that you have
And you shouldn't forget what rock 'n' roll is all about. We used to hang around in small muggy record shops, looking for that elusive Jan & Dean gem that might have been hidden within all that trash in the shelves. We have been digging through 10.000s of pages of Goldmine magazine to find that one last missing picture sleeve
As BlackSea said, bootlegs have been an important part of an artist's history, a lot of times the artists themselves approved them. It was the only way to hear stuff that would have been lost otherwise or to bring together a collection of tracks that regular record companies just wouldn't have been able to issue
In the end, it doesn't matter if a song is credited to be written by a Mr. Hunt or a Mr. Berry. The only important thing is to be able to listen to that song. To enjoy the music. And to have fun (Oh, here's that bad word again ... ;) )
We all are looking forward to your reference books but they won't change Jan & Dean's history or their achievements in the history of rock 'n roll
Hear Here Surfin Again that's the way it was breaking your back looking thru the back section of a record store or an antique store tryin to find a Jan and Dean rarities. And how would you find about these records thru home made fanzines from dedicated J & D collectors. There was no Internet media to gather information there was no eBay available to get that last 45 you needed. You're right it was, I'm gonna use that word, FUN . The information you got back then was thru word and mouth and the publication of these home made fanzines. Some of the information may have been dubious but it wasn't out of lack of trying.
Dude it was Fun Fun Fun and that's the Jan and Dean Story version.
Until next time Tidal wave the market with those Ktel recordings lets see a new generation of Jan and Dean fans.
Quote from: BlackSea on February 16, 2014, 09:31:42 AM
it was breaking your back looking thru the back section of a record store or an antique store tryin to find a Jan and Dean rarities
True. Remember the smell of those old vinyl records?
And how would you find about these records thru home made fanzines from dedicated J & D collectors
I still got all of them shelved in my basement
There was no Internet media to gather information there was no eBay available to get that last 45 you needed
Internet is great. But it's lacking the dirt out of rock 'n' roll
lets see a new generation of Jan and Dean fans
I have a picture of my daughter, being about six months old and wearing my "Jan & Dean Bel Air Bandits 69" t-shirt!
I've never been big on the collector end, but I did enjoy hitting the record shops in the '80s, when you could flip through huge bins of LPs. It was always a joy to find something, because the search was often fruitless. I found Folk 'n Roll and others that way, before the Internet.
The "fun" part of Rock 'n Roll is a given, from my perspective. But beyond that, digging for documentary evidence that will shed new light on a neglected artist's career is a rewarding pastime.
It does matter whether Jan wrote a song or not. They add to his legacy; but his recordings of other people's compositions are important, too.
Post by: Salzburg Surf Scene on February 17, 2014, 05:37:21 AM
You'd be surprised!
Not trying to be a peace-maker, 'cos I quite enjoy the passionate posts - but I don't necessarily see there being a conflict between the "dry historical facts" and the fun. Okay, like Mark I am (well, was til the University contract ended - just try getting work as a historian during a recession!) a historian, and I do think the facts matter. As a fan, I want to understand the development of the music, because it affects how I listen to/appreciate it. I enjoy the music more when I see that part of the genius is that J&D could combine the fun with groundbreaking techniques and subversive lyrics. As an (aspiring) songwriter I have great fun - as I reckon Jan did - trying to combine what appears to be innocent fun with something more complex.
Surfin Again - you refer to "what the music is all about" - I know you've been working with surf music a long time and have contributed to my own collection, and you're an expert in your own right. To be honest, a lot of serious academic research is just like record collecting - you spend hours, years even, going through archives, or weeks on an archaeological dig, just to find that "something" - and you never know what you're looking for until you find it. Just like those great days in the 80s and early 90s, trawling through the record stores of Soho and Camden, hoping to find that gem which no one else even knows about. A great part of the fun is the extra stuff you find - on a dig or in a record shop - not what you were looking for but something that is even better. A number of the academic articles I have written, just like some of the best records in my collection, are things I came across by accident. To be honest, record collectors and historians are remarkably similar; both are obsessive, usually about something that other people don't quite get.
Will many people care? Well, 90% of the work produced by university historians is read by fewer people than post on this messegeboard. People quite literally spend 3 or 4 years writing a book that less than 20 people will read. That's the reality of serious research. If we judge it only by the number of people who buy the books then we would only value the biographies of reality TV "stars". Will it change Rock and Roll history, and give J&D their rightful place in that history? Probably not - but we should not forget that it was an article in a magazine which inspired the movie which in turn was the basis for the J&D revival in Phase 2.
If your in doubt apply the Salzburg Surf Scene theory, that is put it out there and somehow somewhere someone will work it out and more than likely not thru clinical research. And if all else fails just credit it to Arnie Ginsburg.
I like the idea I've been credited with a new methodology!
Actually, most academic historians will try anything to avoid admitting that they're wrong. Stick to your original argument, and if people reckon they have proved you wrong, respond with lots of obscure references. Insist that you are right, and cast other people's argument as faulty, even if you have no evidence. So in the case of Arnie vs Alan Burn, we can imply that Burn stole Arnie's original unreleased masterpieces; or that they are quite different songs which just happen to have the same title; etc etc. And if all else fails, just shake your head as if all around you are fools!
(Not that I would ever do any of the above myself!)
Quote from: Salzburg Surf Scene on February 17, 2014, 05:37:21 AM
record stores of Soho and Camden
We must have met there!
What was the name of the Camden store, right by the tube station? I can't remember. It's a long time since, but that was my favourite
Surfin Again thats the way it was, hard yards, bootlegs and fanzines where else could you read an interview with Jans dad. All the mainstream rock/pop books at the time when referencing Jan and Dean would have the same photo, the centre photo of j and d on the ride the wild surf lp, and a short version of how surf city came about
with reference to the ride the wild surf movie/frank sinatra junior kidnapping.
Attached Photos
Post by: BlackSea on March 06, 2014, 12:48:28 PM
I found this on a blog from a bloke named Country Paul, some sort of collector. Seems to know Don Drowty. Looks like he's got his information from the horses mouth. Although the date for the single is wrong 1962?????.
1Wally what do you think.
> Re:-Aki Aleong, I only have Sherrif/Revells on
> boot (Vol5 of Explosive Doowops-great series)
> original release VeeJay 306, he's credited as a
> Co-writer.... [The] Illustrated Discography of
> Surf Music notes Aki Aleong as a Hawaiian
> entertainer based in Los Angeles. His 'surf'
> entry [is] Mary Ann (Come Surf With Me) Vee Jay
> 520, with an album of the same name by Aki &
> The Nobles.
By coincidence, I was on the phone with Don Drowty
tonight. Don was "Dante" in "Dante & the Evergreens"
("Alley Oop," Madison Records). Our conversation was
wide-ranging and there are some omissions in my notes as
the information was coming thick and fast. Don knew Aki
Aleong (after Sheriff & the Revels) as a prolific
producer as well as recording artist; he also said that
Aleong appeared in a lot of movies as a character actor.
If I got my information straight, Tony Moon, one of the
Evergreens, did a 45 with Aleong as producer called "NaCl
- Sodium Chloride," centering around the singer's vision
of his girlfriend as "salty." Besides Don and Tony, the
other Evergreens were Bill Young and Frank Rosenthal, who
apparently was quite an athlete and played football with
many of the black artists in a lot behind the Apollo in
Harlem when Dante & the Evergreens were one of the few
white acts to play there.
According to Don, Dante & the Evergreens was a
high-school group; they cut Alley Oop first, but it was
covered by the Hollywood Argyles (with Gary "Flip" Paxton,
earlier of Skip & Flip with Clyde Battin) who went to the
same school. (Dante's version, which I always thought
superior, was the bigger hit in New York.)
Don also did a 1962 single on Philips with Dean Torrance
as the "Emerald City Ramblers" called "Full Blown Caddy."
He was also involved with A&M (Herb Alpert is godfather
of one of his children) and with Herb Alpert co-wrote
"Little Miss America," done by the Beach Boys. He reports
that his name was taken off the writer credits on the
Beach Boys' version, but it is shown on a version on
Imperial under the name "Dante & His Friends," a group he
reports as including label owner Lew Chudd and George
McCurn ("I'm Just A Country Boy," A&M, 1962). In addition,
Don did some work with Bert Berns of Bang Records, but we
didn't get into the details of that relationship in this
conversation.
Also on Madison was a black group that Don grew up with,
the Untouchables (the amazing "Raising Sugar Cane," c.
1961. Ultimately the group changed their name to Africa
and had an album, Music From Li'l Brown" (with cover art
copied from "Music From Big Pink") featuring a gorgeous
progressive/group-harmony single, "Here I Stand," written
by Billy Storm. The LP was released on Ode and the single
later reissued on Epic. The group included Brice Coefield,
lead singer, who recently passed away; Charles Wright,
later of Watts 103rd St Band; and Chester Pipkin, who now
heads the large west coast-based ReJOYce Ministries. I
seem to remember Africa changing their name again later
in the '60's, but I forget to what.
By the way, Madison was owned by Larry Uttal, who was
later the owner of Amy/Bell/Mala, which became Arista.
After many years of teaching school, Don Drowty is now on
the board of directors of a Red Cross regional chapter in
California and Director of the National Red Cross Youth
Choir. I met Don when he was in New York working on the
9/11 rescue effort, and paused to visit the UGHA (United
in Group Harmony Association) September meeting, where he
did "Alley Oop" with a pick-up group of Evergreens
including yours truly singing bass. By the way, there is
now a 25-track retrospective of Dante & The Evergreens
available through Clifton Music and UGHA
(www.cliftonmusic.com (http://www.cliftonmusic.com), www.ugha.org (http://www.ugha.org)). Any additions,
corrections or clarifications to the above information
are most welcome.
Ted L.: thank you for the Petty Booka info and link
http://www.sister.co.jp/pettybooka/e-pb-disco.html. (http://www.sister.co.jp/pettybooka/e-pb-disco.html.) I'll
be checking it out in a few minutes! And Don Charles,
your Archies article on the Spectropop website is
http://www.geocities.com/spectropop/go2/archies.html (http://www.geocities.com/spectropop/go2/archies.html)
Interesting to see the reference to Dora Hall. I had been
told her records were "vanity projects," although I have
one Patsy Cline-flavored 45 on Premore, "Hello Faithless,"
which is quite good.
Bob Conway writes:
> I've always liked Andrew Gold. Are you
> aware that he is/was part of the trio
> Bryndle? The group consists/consisted of
> Andrew Gold, Kenny Edwards and Karla Bonoff.
Yes, indeed - and Kenny Edwards was one of the original
Stone Poneys as well.
Time to get on my own pony and ride.....
Country Paul
Post by: 1WALLY1 on March 07, 2014, 02:50:35 AM
Well it looks above board. I've read your Arnie post I see you've been giving Dean a workout. Come on he's on the first version of Jennie Lee. Oh yeah I'll need a Cd quality version of Girl in Zanzibar you can send it to me. YouTube copies are not for me. How did you find The Glens , Cherish My Love.
Post by: BlackSea on March 07, 2014, 03:07:58 AM
Wally old boy Dean doesn't need a work out he's already got great doo wop tracks with Dore. Lets give Arnie the recognition he deserves for his efforts. Yeah Ok I'll forward a CD quality version burnt directly from the 45 your way. You won't believe it but I got the information about The Glens record from IMDB page for Don Altfeld. Goes to show sometimes bozo sites can deliver. Hope to see you make a purchase of the Glens 45 for Cherish My Love soon so I can have a CD quality version. You should be able to afford it $200 plus Lol. Just kidding dude I think the YouTube versions Ok for this one. Until next time give yourself six uppercuts and box out of it. Lol