locked Re: Southern Railway History
Bill Schafer
My hat is off to those who had the patience to scan those 1523 pages! This appears to be just the first two (original) volumes and does not include the 1921 and 1958 supplements.
On Aug 23, 2021, at 17:06, Tracey Green <tracey.c.green@...> wrote:
The 1901 version of the legal history is accessible on Google Books. https://books.google.com/books/about/A_History_of_the_Legal_Development_of_th.html?id=0IkjAQAAMAAJ
Tracey Green
As info…
Before the unbound copies of the "History" were given to SRHA, the decision was vetted and approved by the NS Law Dept. In particular, one of the Lawyers, Mr. Jim Squires, was instrumental in approving the decision. I am certain part of that decision was based on NS' belief that SRHA was a credible organization and the material would be dealt with appropriately.
Southern historians and modelers today owe a lot of "thanks" to NS executives such as Jim Squires, (SRHA member) Wick Moorman and others for allowing SRHA to acquire so many important historical documents. As far as we have been able to determine, SRHA is the ONLY historical group with such a large collection of Executive, Engineering and Mechanical Department files from "their" railroad.
(Now for the bad news!)
At the same time Bill Schafer and I were using the 30 days we were given to remove personal or sensitive corporate information from the Presidents' files to be shredded, at least a half-dozen dumpster loads of Operating Dept. material from other floors of the 175 Spring St building were lost. Our decision was not easy! As both Bill and I were "NS officers", we had to do the work ourselves. There simply was not time for us to obtain and preserve both collections.
The reason for the rush? To make space in the Spring Street buildings before the Conrail takeover date.
The quality and generosity of NS in all of this cannot be overstated! I asked NS Intermodal if they would let SRHA use a trailer to move the collection to Chattanooga.They not only spotted a trailer at the 175 building loading dock, they moved it to Chattanooga for us.
Because of Norfolk Southern, the "Green Light" still shines.
CC Mr. Bill Schafer
On Aug 23, 2021, at 3:18 PM, Robert Hanson via groups.io <RHanson669@...> wrote:
At one time in the early 1970's I asked the University of Georgia Libraries to search for a copy that they could borrow in inter-library library loan that I could use and they could not find a single copy in any public library in about sever southeastern states.
I later acquired a copy through a trade and when, in the 1990's, the NS archives found out that I had a copy, they were very nervous about that and were more than a little interested in how I had acquired it. They were very antsy about any copies being in other-than-corporate hands.
Given that attitude, I was totally amazed that they released any of the copies, let alone all that they had.
Bob Hanson
From: George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...>
To: main@southernrailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Aug 23, 2021 3:06 pm
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] Southern Railway History
Note the attached….
If Fairfax Harrison was not willing to send the "LOC" a copy of the "History, you know they were serious about not letting it get out!
<1926-5-12 FH to LOC re request for SR History.jpeg>
On Aug 23, 2021, at 1:07 PM, David Carpenter via groups.io <dcarp@...> wrote:
Strange that the letter states "never intended for publication." I used to go to the North Carolina Collection in the Louis Round Wilson Library in Chapel Hill in the early 70's and a person wearing white gloves would go retrieve this book for me to sit and read.. It was well-worn with brown leather wraps. I was stunned when I saw the set laying on the SRHA table at a train show in Winston-Salem 20-30 years ago it seems! Best $100 bill I spent that year! Thanks to whoever decided to bind them!!!!!
Others are selling entire collections of their magazines back issues for $99-$129 roughly it seems. I agree with others that is the market. Maybe 10% off with a new membership even.
Michael Roderick
I have had good luck dealing with the UNC Wilson Library. It takes them a while to answer questions but the information is great.
On Aug 23, 2021, at 15:46, David Carpenter via groups.io <dcarp@...> wrote:
 Wow, Ike!!!! What a revelation. Wonder how the UNC Library came across it? Interesting stuff!!!!!!
On Aug 23, 2021, at 3:06 PM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
Wow, Ike!!!! What a revelation. Wonder how the UNC Library came across it? Interesting stuff!!!!!!
Carl Ardrey
My father did a synopsis of Fairfax Harrison's work for some project. He had to jump through hoops to get the loan of a copy in the '60's.
On 08/23/2021 2:18 PM Robert Hanson via groups.io <rhanson669@...> wrote:
On Aug 23, 2021, at 1:07 PM, David Carpenter via groups.io < dcarp@...> wrote:
Robert Hanson
On Aug 22, 2021, at 6:32 PM, Carl Ardrey <carlardrey2005@...> wrote:
We do have a few copies left.
On 08/22/2021 4:38 PM George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
In 2005, Norfolk Southern donated a number of printed, but unbound, copies of "The Legal History of the Southern Railway" to SRHA. Written in 1901, by future SR President Fairfax Harrison, with supplements in 1921 and 1958, they represent the most complete and accurate description of the creation and development of the Southern Railway System.
They were printed, packaged and kept in the NS Archives until they were donated to SRHA. In 2005, SRHA President Dan Sparks had them trimmed and bound and we sold them through our Company Store, "The Grab". While the bindings were new, the SRHA versions are not reprints. Unfortunately, the limited supply has been sold out for quite some time.
For anyone fortunate to have copies of the two Volume set, here is the response sent to almost anyone asking Southern for a copy from 1901 to 2006. From the SRHA - Southern Railway Presidents' Files collection Box 192A File 21:
<1917-1-22 Response to request for SR History.jpeg>
locked Re: TIES
Dave:
First, everyone realizes NO museum or archives could survive by selling copies of anything.
In no way, was I minimizing the work done by volunteers! While volunteer efforts are always difficult to quantify, they are AS important as cash or material donations. For example, the back-breaking work less than a dozen volunteers did to clean out Hayne Shop in the one-day (8:00AM to 5:00PM) before they locked the gate on us was an amazing effort. The folks that packed everything in Kennesaw also did an amazing job that the museum thought we could never get done. (I could not help as I would have been arrested for trespassing if I had gone on the property.)
I am not trying to denigrate folks that donate their time and hard work in lieu of/addition to cash…my question about "free ride" relates more to people that think because they "like" the Southern, they should have anything they want at any time for free. We need policies that limit that behavior but still make material available to serious researchers, modelers, etc. as easily as possible…..THAT is the major question in my mind.
PS There are a thousand reasons why people do not help/join/donate/participate in the archives or SRHA, I've heard them all. More than once, we have heard a disgruntled "I am not going to renew my membership" when someone demands that we do their basic research or give them unfettered archives access. The response? "Don't let the door hit you on the way out!"
We respond to both SRHA and non-SRHA member inquiries and requests, care to guess which gets the fastest attention?
On Aug 23, 2021, at 11:20 AM, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:
It sounds to me like the association has several goals. I think it would be helpful to separate the association goals and not assume one size fits all. Those individuals with the means to fund capital campaigns are often different than those who are dedicated to the preservation or learning through volunteer work, and different again from many people who are interested casually in learning. Each can contribute if you ask them the right way.
SRHA may need a capital campaign to support the educational and preservation mission. There is not likely a sustainable commercial market for historical data that would support the kinds of spending for archive space and scanning equipment documented below. Trying to link that level of financial burden to products for people casually interested in learning just ends those people's interest. They find a new interest, are left dissatisfied, and/or a negative impression.
Volunteers do work because they feel they are contributing to a valued goal. Their time should be honored and recognized, but not considered part of the balance sheet.
Sent from Dave Bott's iPhone
On Aug 23, 2021, at 10:14 AM, George Eichelberger <geichelberger@...> wrote:
Bob:
SRHA BOD members discuss options to access SRHA archives materials remotely constantly. Until this point, because we have moved the archives at least a half-dozen times in 25 or so years (and dealt with years of limited access at Kennesaw for nearly half of that), the work to undertake large-scale scanning has only been under way for a few years...limited by Covid.
Now, that we are getting to the point where we are getting materials organized and scanned AND are working to put the technology in place to scan, store and distribute drawings and documents we are closer to the time when we want to move from "discussing options" to being able to provide more of our material remotely. (BTW, virtually every aspect of the SRHA archives we have today, quality of the facility, access, location, etc. is the result of SRHA's relationship with TVRM. Our experience since moving to Chattanooga and discussions with multiple other railroad historical groups convinces us the SRHA archives is in as good a situation as any other group…..for the present and long term!)
(Note!!: We purchased, received, and setup a large format color scanner this past weekend…cost about $8,000. Donations to defray that expense are certainly welcome! Even for people that could never visit the archives, archives donations and SRHA membership, are meaningful ways to support SRHA's/TVRM's efforts to preserve SR history.)
Rather than try to list anything as pro or con reasons for making material available remotely on a larger scale, let me simply pose some (of my own) comments and ask for everyone's opinions and feedback:
Re: "and all of the scanned material at the archive even) should be a benefit of membership":
Almost the entire amount of SRHA member "dues" pays to print and mail "TIES". (Revenue from hobby shop sales goes directly to White River.)
Said differently, SRHA membership monies have been a very small factor in acquiring, moving or housing our collections for more than 30 years. Some dollar amounts may be useful: SRHA has paid more than $100,000 for purchased collections and probably about the same amount to pack, move and store them. (Note that this does not include travel, truck rentals, storage fees, etc. that were donated by individuals.) Those amounts came from a combination of Grab sales and cash donations….not annual membership fees. (SRHA member donations that helped TVRM purchase the archives building are in the area of $400,000.)
Add to those dollar costs the many hours of work by SRHA volunteers over those 25+ years and ask the question, "How much of a "free ride" should be available today? How do we deal with those questions and make archives material available to Southern Railway modelers, researchers and historians?
Re: Scanning and organizing….
….are labor intensive, boring and even mind numbing tasks. How can they be done to develop digital archives? (We could bring in, and pay, people to do that work but how would that be funded?)
I think this is enough for everyone to get the idea of the kinds of questions and issue we are dealing with. Comments and ideas are welcome, either via the .io groups or to archives@....
On Aug 23, 2021, at 7:22 AM, Rob Wingo <robertawingo@...> wrote:
I still have a few dozen from my dad and they are a fascinating look into the past. However….
I am not sure I would buy more than a few because I have enough stuff and as they are interesting I am not sure I really wanna read an entire year of the magazine without knowing some content and that is even more work than scanning and mailing. Is this a fund raising venture for the SHRA or just being provided as a service to the community with cost recovery?
If its just a service I will suggest another avenue. Since I live 500 miles from TVRM and would rarely get a chance to come dig through the archive I think a web publication available to all SHRA members of the material ( and all of the scanned material at the archive even) should be a benefit of membership. I'd feel very comfortable raising the yearly dues ($1-$10?) to pay for it. I would also like to upload some of my father's material for all members to see rather than sitting in my basement. I'd guess alot of members would contribute also.
I'd like to know what our new SHRA webmaster thinks of a searchable database of material from the archive as it becomes available where all
members could log in and view it.
Not sure about the two addenda but the 1901 tome may be found online and downloaded
A&Y Dave in MD
Bob:
Preston Clark
I Agreed, overall, the more data we can get in a digital, searchable, format the better and cheaper it will be for all us modelers and enthusiasts. I know everyone is different, but I appreciate all space savings I get as well and digital helps with this as well!
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> on behalf of Marv Clemons <mclemonsjr@...>
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 9:13 AM
Subject: Re: [SouthernRailway] TIES
A great idea, especially if scanned in searchable PDF format and uploaded to the website and/or flash drive.
Marv Clemons
I agree with what is being discussed. I think we could change the membership dues to reflect those that would do a lot of research and having that access to the digital archives as a benefit. Those that don't due a lot of research could stay at the current membership rate and pay as need fee for accessing the digital archives. As for the Ties Magazine going Digital I think we should do them in 10 year increments this way people can choose which group they want.
Mike Roderick
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> On Behalf Of Marv Clemons
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 09:14
aramsay18
I agree with the suggestion to make the entire archive (for all years) available in a digital form such as PDF. It is essential IMHO that a digital archive be searchable. I would prefer a download distribution. I want to be able to search across the complete archive. I would also want to be able to search individual issues. Also to be able to browse all issues by year and month. Should this project be undertaken, I will volunteer to help work out functional (user) requirements. I would also help work out the structure and format for its digital distribution.
Andy Ramsay
Berryville VA
On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 8:29 AM Paul Spilman <soumodeler@...> wrote:
Great idea, but it needs to be done the right way. Doing one CD per year? No thanks. It would be better to offer the entire collection as one digital download, on a flash drive, or at worst, data DVDs.
A large number of laptops now do not come with a disc drive at all. A lot of people rely solely on a tablet now. Physical copies of digital media are dying. Why not just eliminate the issue and make it compatible with nearly any device from the beginning?
If you do it digitally, I guess you could sell one year at a time, but that would be annoying to someone who wants the entire archive, which I expect a lot of people would want, such as myself.
Additionally, having it as one complete collection would make for a much more useful index, which is a very important aspect of offering something like this. The Model Railroader archive would be way less valuable without the ability to search it, as an example.
Finally, price. It would need to be very reasonably priced for most people to see the value in buying it.
Paul Spilman
Rob Wingo
Get Outlook for Android
From: main@SouthernRailway.groups.io <main@SouthernRailway.groups.io> on behalf of Wick Moorman <cwmoorman@...>
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2021 7:14:47 PM
I'm in.
SRHA has a complete set of the Southern Rwy publication Ties. What would be the interest in offering for sale a CD with a calendar year's worth of issues?