Responding Further to Whiteness
Posted by Lucius Svartwulf Helsen in Paganism, Rants
aubs, Heathen, Heathenism, hrafnblod, marxism, misha, Pagan, Paganism, polytheism, progressive, racism, white supremacy, whiteness
One of the things I don't like about WordPress is the way the comment section works. I'm trying to figure out ways to change it, but rather than making quotes in blocks the further down the chain it just turns them into vertical towers and I really wish I knew a way to make it stop. So if you know, and feel helpful, please tell me below.
In my post "You are Toxic Trash" there was a bit of a discussion with a person named Hrafnblod, who started things off by calling me a "fascist shitbag" and telling me to get out of Paganism. Because that's generally how one goes about starting conversations these days, apparently.
Ah the "tolerant left."
Anyways, it's one of their last comments I want to talk about here. And I'm doing it this way because the damn comment system settings, and because honestly there's some stuff I'd like to address more fully. Because I think it's educational.
Your inability or unwillingness to understand a system of ethics does not make it an incoherent or contradictory system. Nor does your fragility and obsessive need for any community to center you and people like you reflect a problem with us.
This is in relation to me repeatedly pointing out the hypocrisy of people who insist that "empathy, diversity, and inclusion" are moral goods constantly throwing away those very tenants of their belief system the instant they become inconvenient or would make the believer actually have to live up to their morals in regards to something they don't like. This is especially true of "progressivism," and I'm far from the only one to point it out.
To give Hrafn a basic lesson in ethics, and contradictions, here goes.
If you say that something is Moral, then it is Moral. So if for instance you say that Equality (the treatment of each person as equal in value to every other person) and Empathy (the act of empathizing and understanding a person) are both Moral, then they are Moral. Moral = Good/Holy/Righteous/etc.
Now, there is an ancient debate going back to the oldest Pagan times about if things are moral because they please the gods, or the gods are pleased because things are fundamentally moral as laws of the universe. For the sake of argument, we'll posit off the latter. Moral things are good because their goodness is a fundamental law of the universe. Like gravity, or thermodynamics.
So if Equality and Empathy are Moral, they are Universal Morals that apply to anything and everything fundamentally.
Without Exceptions.
Which is where the hypocrisy of the progressives comes in, especially when it comes to "racists." As directly quoted in Aub's post that I covered in YATT, "One shouldn't be capable of empathy for a racist piece of trash."
So, on the one hand you have a Universal Moral, and then you have someone who has embraced this Universal Moral as True, and you have that same person demanding that this Universal Moral (that should be applied to everyone), which they hold as True, should not be practiced against a person or persons whom they do not like.
This is, fundamentally, hypocrisy and immorality. No different than if you say held that Murder was Immoral, but then suddenly insisted it was Moral to start murdering a certain group of people because you didn't like them.
What Hrafn is attempting to defend here is not a "moral system I am failing to understand" but rather an immoral system. It is, fundamentally, no different a "moral" system than say Islam has, where it demands one act with honor and humanity to one's fellow Muslims, but then views Pagans as nothing more than wild beasts which need to be slaughtered for the pleasure of Allah. Or, to put it in a way that will no doubt piss off people like Hrafn and Aubs, if their ethical system is actually a perfectly good ethical system without hypocrisy, then the Nazis were a perfectly ethical group of individuals who did absolutely nothing wrong because they believed in empathy and equality for their fellows, and lacking empathy and equality for others isn't a problem at all.
Either a Moral is universal, in which case it must be practiced universally…or a Moral isn't universal, in which case you do not have the moral justification to vilify people for doing the exact same thing you yourself are doing, just because you don't like them.
I know, this is really complicated shit, and I'll get it if people can't grasp it, but there it is.
As an aside to the whole "Nor does your fragility and obsessive need for any community to center you and people like you reflect a problem with us." thing, I would like to point out that a) I am a solo practitioner so I don't demand that any community center itself around me, b) I don't think I've ever come across a group of white pagans demanding everything be centered around them, c) it's generally been my experience that people like Aubs, Misha, Rhyd, Hrafn, and many others go into predominantly "white" groups who were minding their own business and insisting they're "too white" and "need to consider the needs of PoC above themselves or they're evil racists, and d) in instances where group like the AFA have fucked off to be by themselves and not bother anyone or make demands of anyone, they are constantly hounded, attacked, and vilified by others.
So if anyone is "fragile" and "demanding communities center around themselves" it's people like Aubs and Hrafn who DEMAND communities shift to fit their visions…not the other way around.
The content of this post is racist. It's lazy apologia for racists. It's not you being victimized bc you're white, it's you complaining that people won't tolerate white supremacists' corrosive toxicity in their spaces, because as someone who is at minimum sympathetic to white supremacists, you can't really cope with the idea of a space that doesn't primarily cater to you. No one is saying "white people can't partake." They're saying that setting aside white supremacy is a prerequisite for their participation.
No where have I demanded or even asked that people "cater to my views." In fact, in all the years that I have followed Paganism, I've never really seen in real life or in online reports, where "racist, white supremacists" demanded that any group primarily cater to us. In my experience, it's actually been the other way around. "Anti-Racists" show up in place after place and group after group and demand that those groups cater to their desires, their needs, and their wants.
Any group that has actually been white supremacist has generally fucked off and hidden itself in my experience. And most of the groups who get labeled that (like the AFA) have generally taken the position of "we're not a part of your communities, we are not going to make demands of you, please leave us alone in peace to let us pray."
Now, as for my post(s) being "Racist" and an "apologia for racism" according to Hrafn's views…they absolutely are. But as I've pointed out in Misha posts and Aubs posts, and we could even go back to other people's posts, all racism really is…is nothing. It's literally some original sin that white people have for being born white with a white culture. In my post "what manner of beings fears the light" I go over what Misha calls "whiteness" and it's literally things like believing in individual rights, civil liberties, etc. According to Misha, meeting at a holy place, praying, and having a feast afterwards are all examples of "whiteness" that need to be confronted and removed.
So when Hrafn says "no one is saying white people can't partake, they just need to set aside their white supremacy" what they are basically saying is: "People with white skin can partake in Pagan religion, they just need to remove literally everything that makes them who they are and live and worship as non-whites" with the qualifier that they place non-white pagans above themselves and functionally make themselves into second class citizens in their own religious practices.
Aub's even said as much in YATT: "It is more important that the minority members of our community be safe than the privileged and racist few who demand the same sort of "respect" that they see us give others…"
How dare you, a "racist" white person demand the same respect and equality we show a non-white person. They are better than you. They are more important than you. You are trash, you are a second place person. You do not deserve our respect.
So let's go back. Equality and Empathy are Moral…and yet "racists" whites (any white person who contains 'whiteness' within them) do not deserve to be treated Morally.
I say this is hypocritical and immoral. Hrafn insists I'm a shitbag fascist idiot who doesn't understand morality. As a historian, a cleric, and someone deeply tied into the divine ideas of law and justice, I say Hrafn is supporting the religious equivalent of "Jim Crow" laws and demanding we accept their way is moral.
To try and break it down even clearer: White Supremacy = Evil. White Supremacy = Whiteness. Whiteness = such attitudes as "we hold these truths to be self evident, that all people are created equal. And Hrafn, Aubs, and Misha are all pushing for something like: Anti-Racism = Good. Anti-Whiteness = Good. Anti-Whiteness = we hold these truths to be self evident, that all people are not created equal, but must take their place in the hierarchy of peoples as is proper.
Because that is what they're pushing here in their own words. Demanding respect is racist, demanding equality and empathy is racist. Demanding that you, a white person, be treated by the same morality they uphold to be universally good…is racist, and you are evil and you need to go.
And let's be clear. No one whose life is "destroyed" because they espouse a worldview predicated on ethnic purity and the dehumanization of nonwhites is actually a victim. No one's forcing them to hold a genocidal worldview. Are they human? Yes. But being a racist prick who traffics in racist rhetoric like, I dunno, extremely stereotyped views of Japanese people, is not an intrinsic out unchangeable part of who you are.
To explain the whole "japanese stereotype" thing is because when I was making an example of why diversity can work against itself I used the example of a Japanese guy named Takashi who worked 12 days. I am not entirely sure why this is a stereotype because it is a literal fact that Japanese people in office jobs tend to work 12-16 hour days, and Facts are not Stereotypes, but then I suspect that Hrafn here knows jack and shit about Japan and what actually goes on there.
Maybe they should check their whiteness?
What's more interesting to me is that this is just a further case of "erasing the humanity" of people Hrafn doesn't like. "They're not really a victim" and "they deserved what happened to them for being a racist piece of shit" are certainly things to take note of. I mean, by that logic the women burned as witches by the church weren't really victims, because being a witch wasn't an intrinsic part of their being and they could have stopped doing it at any time and become "moral people." Or, to put it in terms I'm sure will piss Hrafn off further: "That woman wasn't really a victim of rape. Dressing in a provocative manner isn't an intrinsic part of her nature. She could have just dressed modestly at any time."
You see how dumb this kind of reasoning is?
Now I get it, perhaps I am a bit too autistic about this whole "morality" thing but lets be honest…it keeps me pretty damn honest about morality. A person who has their life destroyed is a victim. It doesn't matter what provoked it, it doesn't matter if you personally feel it is justified in happening. It doesn't matter if you feel justified in doing it.
I mean, if Hrafn's life was completely ruined by a bunch of "white supremacists" over their quite racist views towards whites/whiteness, Hrafn would insist that they were a victim. Even though technically it would meet their rules on "justified violence."
Here is a fundamental rule on Morality and Justice. Read these words well, and commit them to memory, because they are so very, very important. Let them stick with you forever.
IF AN ACTION IS SOMETHING YOU WOULD CONSIDER IMMORAL IF DONE TO YOU, THEN IT IS IMMORAL WHEN DONE TO ANYONE.
NO. FUCKING. EXCEPTIONS.
If any of the actions Hrafn, Aubs, or Misha are advocating be done to "racists" were done to People of Color, they were scream their fucking lungs out. If people were advocating that minorities didn't deserve empathy, or equality, or inclusion, or any of these things, they would REEEEEEEEEEE so hard it would shatter glass. In fact, they do reee, they insist that "racists" are evil because they might exclude PoC from empathy, equality, or inclusion in their spaces.
They denounce actions as immorality while themselves PRACTICING the very same immorality, and insist they are moral for doing immoral actions.
But an Immoral Action IS an Immoral Action.
The reason I hate racists is because I know first hand that theirs is a worldview that trends inexorably towards genocide. They are not just people with a slightly different set of opinions. They are a material threat to the lives and well being of the people who inclusive spaces are meant to protect- whether because they're fully militant white nationalists, or because they're people who rhetorically and intellectually provide cover for the people who are.
Misha defines whiteness as anything that is beholding to "European/American values," regardless of how Pagan those values origin actually is. Misha says we need to "remove whiteness." Misha and Aubs define racists as anyone who protests the removal of this "whiteness." They might not be "white supremacists" but they are, as Hrafn puts it "people who provide cover for the people who are."
So for example, I am a racist according to Hrafn because I'm proving "cover and apologia for racists."
But destroying a racial/ethnic groups' culture is…genocide.
Now, lets talk about the Genocide thing here. Hrafn insists that "White Supremacy and Racism inevitably lead to genocide." Thing is though, this is not entirely true. The case can be made that the USA was a very white supremacist country for a very long time, but african americans were not genocided as a group even during the heights of racial tension. Some might make the case that the native americans were genocided…but given that the vast majority of their dying off was due to disease in a time when such things were not understood that's debatable. The Haitian genocide of its white population I would say had nothing to do with white supremacy, though racism was certainly a part of it. The genocide of the Holodomor is of debatable racial nature, though it would require one to hold that it was jewish supremacists who were genociding non-jews and idk if Hrafn wants to even go there. I'm sure Hrafn is most likely talking about the Holocaust, but even then it wasn't just "pure racism and white supremacy" that sparked that off. There were other contributing factors.
But look at this line "They are a material threat to the lives and well being of the people who inclusive spaces are meant to protect-". That's an interesting way to put it, especially in the larger context we've covered. To re-summarize:
Empathy and Respect is to be reserved for Minorities
Empathy and Respect is not to be given to "racists"
"racists" are white people who are guilty of "whiteness", like insisting they be treated with the same respect, empathy, and inclusion as minorities, which is "racism"
People who are denied the same treatment as others are 2nd class people
Insisting on having the same rights as others makes you a material threat to those who are supposed to be protected
Hmmm, you know, this is all sounding strangely familiar and like something I've heard a lot about recently. I just can't seem to put my finger on it. Oh well, I'm probably just an idiot.
But even an idiot can grasp why there's growing hostility and "white supremacy" in the Pagan community (assuming that's actually happening). I mean, it's basically the same thing I see happening elsewhere, in hobbies, politics, etc. Hell, I've been called a nazi, a racist, a fascist, etc, all because I dared dislike the wrong comic book, or the wrong movie, or don't appreciate some new "social justice" thing being shoved into one of my few hobbies, not to mention all the time's it happened with my religious blogging.
People, especially white people I admit it, do not appreciate being made 2nd class citizens in their own spaces. Spaces they created, built, that they made their homes. Having people come in, an in the name of "morality" insist "you must give up your ways and make yourself subservient to these people, who are to be your new masters and treated better than you" is a recipe for making people angry. Really angry. People like Misha and Aubs throw around the term "the loss of privilege feels like oppression" but let us be honest here, no one is losing their "privileges" they're being stripped of their rights at this point. And all for the crime of treating "minorities" the way they would honestly treat any white person, or insisting they be treated the same way "minorities" are being treated with respect and empathy.
Hell, there's been times when I've been called a racist for treating a PoC the exact same way I would treat a PoL. I suspect that's a pretty common story these days, where a Pagan or Heathen treats a minority person the same way they would a white person, and suddenly they're being bitched at for being a racist. Because according to Aubs, minorities must be treated better than white people are treated. Or else you're a racist practicing whiteness.
I honestly feel kinda bad for minority pagans in this situation. I mean, one the one hand they're being used as pawns, and on the other they're being manipulated. Look, I get it, if you go somewhere you think would be cool and you don't feel super welcomed, it can suck. I've been there. I'm pretty sure everyone has. But where minority pagans have been repeatedly told "well, those places need to be made to be more comfortable for you" they should have learned the lesson I and others have had to learn. Maybe just don't go there. Rather than try to force a place to like you and cater to you (something that will only breed resentment) keep going to other places till you find a place that does feel comfortable without having to make it so.
Heathenism wasn't my first religion and Hela wasn't the first Deity I got close too, not by a long shot, and even after finding it and Her I still looked at some others. The journey was about finding a place I fit, not about finding a place I could make fit me. Not a place where I could bully people into catering to me, or where I could get other people to do the bullying for me in my name.
I've known people like that. I've known people who have tried it. It never works out well. Even if you manage to smash a you shaped hole where you want it, you've smashed a lot of people to do it, and that breeds hatred and enemies. Things that one day may well come back to bite you, or spread and hurt other people who are innocent of your actions, but suffer for them anyways.
Now I'm sure Hrafn i going to leave angry and insulting comments down below, and who knows, maybe I'll respond there, or make another post, or I'll just go off back into my hole and try to live my life as peacefully and "whitely" as I can. Everyone else, feel free to comment back to them however you like, I don't really care right now. And as always,
6 thoughts on "Responding Further to Whiteness"
neptunesdolphins said:
I read the exchange between the two of you. Your commenter seems to devolve into post-modern debating tactics. Keep using feelings as facts, and not answer questions.
I find it strange that suddenly Patheos has decided to write a stream of articles about White supremacy. I wonder what prompted that. They all appear to be cookie cutter in their approach and in their conclusions.
I do have a problem in placing European cultural people in a double-bind. They are told not to cultural appropriate or poach other cultures, not theirs. Then they are told not to center themselves in their own European cultures. I wonder what this is about.
I hadn't realized Patheos was doing a run lately. If you wanna give me some links I'll look over them and see if there's anything worth going over.
As for why they're all doing it now…well, everyone's doing it. I think I sort of make a joke about it in tomorrow's post, but it's a semi-known, but never discussed, fact that basically all media companies are basically owned by a tiny selection (I think there's six media companies that own literally every media and entertainment outlet in the usa, for example) and most News agencies get their news from basically one or two places on top of that.
So if someone wants to push an agenda, all they have to do is tell all their underlings "well, we want to focus on X topic this next week or so." And suddenly you'll see a flood of people talking about that topic. As for why they're all cookie cutter, that's two fold. The first reason is head offices will send out a list of points they want covered with some "key" information they want published, and the second is all these people go through the same university education which programs them how to think, write, etc in the approved manner…which generally produces a very "clone" like mindset.
Hrafnblod said:
Lmao I kant believe you've made two blog posts about this.
I mean, I'm not surprised. Seems there's a lot of shit you can't believe, including the stuff you claim to believe in.
You might want to work on that buddy.
You might want to work on your pun detection
if you mean your pun about the philosopher Kant, I saw it.
But it is impossible to truly detect anything but falsehoods from a person with a forked tongue and complete lack of honesty or morals.