JAISAL NOOR: Welcome to the Real News Network.
I'm Jaisal Noor here in Baltimore, where we've
been closely covering the trial of William
Porter, the first of six officers charged
in the death of Freddie Gray.
While we cover this trial in the upcoming
weeks and months, we don't want to lose sight
of the bigger picture here, of the broken
criminal justice system many would say here
in Baltimore, which takes countless people,
majority African-American, through its gates
every year in Baltimore. It costs taxpayers
hundreds of millions of dollars, and enacts
an enormous social toll on this city.
Well, now joining us to discuss this is someone
who knows this system very well, Todd Oppenheim.
Todd is an assistant public defender here
in Baltimore City. He's also running for circuit
court judge in next year's election. Todd,
thanks so much for joining us.
TODD OPPENHEIM: Thank you for having me.
NOOR: So Todd, you wrote this piece in the
New York Times which has gone viral, about
the injustice of this criminal justice system
here in Baltimore. And for myself, who I've
been in this trial but have also covered other
trials in Baltimore, what is striking and
very obvious is how these six officers are
being treated very differently than the average
Baltimore resident that gets processed through
the system, starting from the very arrest
they had and the bail they were given.
OPPENHEIM: Absolutely. It's not exactly equal
justice when you compare what's happening
to them versus everyone else. A larger point,
though, that I want to make from the article
is that the way the officers are treated,
it almost inspires us to know that there is
hope. They're treated the way everyone else
should be treated. It kind of shows that the
criminal justice system can work. The unfortunate
thing its that it's not working for a lot
of people in Baltimore, mainly black people,
mainly people who are indigent.
NOOR: And so one of those specifics that you
go into in your article is about the arrest
and the bail. Because these officers were
involved in killing somebody, and in many
cases you're not offered bail or the bail
is set much higher. These officers were also
able to make that bail, as well.
OPPENHEIM: Yeah. There's a huge discrepancy
there between what happens to the officers
and what happens to the normal person. If
you look at the way they were able to turn
themselves in, giving them an option to turn
themselves in, you never see that for our
clients. They'll just go and arrest them,
especially for a homicide.
And then the bail amount that was set. They
may look like high numbers, but they were
bails that the officers could post. They were
reasonable amounts. And they're able to get
out before trial. What happens with our clients
is we'll see exorbitant numbers set on their
bails. And when you think about it, the bail
presumes that someone's going to post it and
get out before trial. It presumes that someone
will be released. That's not what happens.
When you set an amount that they can't make,
you're essentially setting it at no bail,
and you're preventing them from having any
chance of posting it at all. So it kind of
takes away that possibility just for the people
that I'm representing, for the poor people,
mainly affecting black people, again.
NOOR: And so this was kind of brought to the
international spotlight after the uprising,
the unrest in Baltimore. And yourself, you
represented some people charged with rioting
that got bail in the hundreds of thousands
of dollars. And some of those people were
not able to get out, were not able to meet
bail. One case that I covered, Larry Lomax,
he was held for over a month because he could
not meet his bail.
OPPENHEIM: Yeah. It's crazy. I couldn't help
but thinking when I was in the bail review
for one of my clients who was charged during
the protest that the decision being made by
the judge to set such a high bail, to keep
him in jail for such a ridiculous charge,
his charge got dismissed. It was completely
unprovable. He was at a relative's house in
the wrong place at the wrong time when they
were just kind of grabbing people. But it
was a huge point in my mind that stuck out
that the very issue that the judge was making
the bad call on, it's basically what is at
the root of the uprising. I mean, those problems
and setting those amounts of bail and not
understanding what we're doing, I think that's
why people are so upset in Baltimore. It's
why we need change.
NOOR: And so the offices are now, the trials
are underway. William Porter's jury selection
is underway right now, today. How has the
process for his trial been different than
some of the people you've represented?
OPPENHEIM: Well, for one thing, he's in trial.
And we are within a year of his arrest. That
doesn't happen for many of our clients. So
it's moved through the system much quicker.
The bail issue. He's out on the street, he's
able to work with his attorney, which we're
not often able to do. I mean, we can go to
the jail and visit our clients who are locked
up. But nothing compares to being able to
have someone come into your office, sit down,
go over evidence, if there's something that's
on a computer or something that you need to
get through security at jail, a lot of the
times we can't do that without special permission.
So the ease of working with a client who's
not incarcerated is something that can't be
taken for granted, and the officers in this
case have that. They've been able to argue
motions before trial, which is huge. It seems
like a basic concept. But there are so many
times when we have to figure out strategy
on the fly because we're arguing motions on
the day of trial. And I'm saying that from
a defense perspective, but that goes for the
state as well. It's not fair to the prosecutors
either to try to get things together in a
typical case at the last minute.
NOOR: And you know, there's the issue of the
jury pool. Because just in these first two
days, the judge is going to have a chance
to question at least 150 jurors. Is that typical?
OPPENHEIM: No, it's not. We will normally--especially
for this, for Officer Porter's charges. It
probably wouldn't be a pool of more than 100
people. And the numbers vary depending on
the availability of jurors each day, what's
going on in different courtrooms. But what's
happening here is that, especially yesterday,
today it'll be a little lighter on the rest
of the cases, they're drawing so many jurors
into the courtroom for that case that it affects
who can go to trial in the other courtroom.
Just like with the other issues with the trial
I've been talking about, it's almost like
ignoring that anything else is going on in
the system now besides this officer's case.
And I'm not saying that it's not important,
or a huge issue. But we can't lose sight of
whatever else is going on in the criminal
justice system.
NOOR: And even a huge media presence, you
were writing how that's going to cause delays
for other people, other families that are
trying to get access to this court system.
OPPENHEIM: Yeah. I challenge anyone to try
to get downtown now, or park around the courthouses.
It's a zoo, it's a mess. The security measures.
I will say that they've been a little bit
laxer than they were during the pre-trial
motions, which is strange because they kind
of affected the way the things that were operating
then. But it's still, it's still a delay to
get in the courthouse because of the way Calvert
Street's blocked off.
NOOR: So we know that you are preparing to--you
want to challenge the system. You are running
for circuit court judge. We haven't had a
chance to invite all the other candidates
on, so we're going to, we're not going to
discuss your candidacy right now, but if you
can talk about what some of the things that
you would like to see changed, you know, that
things that you think are the most important
things to change in the circuit court system,
specifically, here in Baltimore.
OPPENHEIM: Absolutely. Equal justice is what
I'm after. And what that deals with is three
main points. I think first that has to be
addressed is the bail system. Second is the
way legal stops and seizures occur on the
street. And third is the war on drugs. It
has to end. With the bail system I'm in favor
of ending money bail, but even under the system
we have, like I was discussing before, there
is discretion that the judges have to not
set exorbitant bails for indigent people.
High bail is like no bail for most poor people.
And there's options. And those options for
pre-trial release save the taxpayers money.
People don't have to be locked up before trial.
In terms of the stops and seizures on people,
I see too many bad rulings, and we call them
suppression hearings where we try to argue
whether a stop or search is illegal or not
before trial. Too many bad rulings that validate
police misconduct. And what might be, what
might seem innocuous in a courtroom, maybe
just going through someone's pockets, something
harmless, that could snowball. It could snowball
into putting hands on someone. It could snowball
into hitting someone. It could snowball into
shooting someone. And that doesn't apply to
every officer. Most cops are decent officers.
But the rulings that start in court can have
a tremendous effect on the way policing is
done on the street.
NOOR: And so I wanted to follow up with, on
one point of that, so how much of the bail
that is set, how much of that is the power
of the state's attorney, or even the police,
as far as how much of that is related to the
charges themselves and how much discretion
does the judge really have to set that bail?
OPPENHEIM: Well, there's no true rubric that
the judge has, like this charge requires this
amount. So the state definitely has their,
their portion of the bail review. They can
argue for whatever part they want. There's
a neutral pre-trial services representative
there that often ends up making a recommendation
that's totally skewed towards the state. And
then the charge itself, unfortunately, is
what a lot of judges get wrapped up into.
They don't want to have their name in the
newspaper letting someone who's charged with
something perceived as violent out, and then
have them do something while they're out on
bail. Many times, though, it's a misperception
of how serious that charge is.
And I think that comes from experience in
the courtroom. I have the experience to know
what is a real charge, what is a fabrication,
what's going to play out in court, and what
we need to direct our resources towards.
NOOR: Todd Oppenheim, thanks so much for joining
us.
OPPENHEIM: Thank you.
NOOR: Thank you for joining us at the Real
News Network.
