DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY
SCOTT BUSBY: Hello.
I'm Scott Busby, Deputy
Assistant Secretary
in the Bureau of
Democracy, Human Rights,
and Labor at the U.S.
Department of State
here in Washington, DC.
Thank you for joining us
for this discussion today.
We will address the Chinese
government's campaign
of repression against Uygurs,
ethnic Kazakhs, Kyrgyz,
and other Muslim minorities in
the Xinjiang Uygur autonomous
region of China, and discuss
how you, your organization,
and your government
can help respond
to these deplorable
human rights abuses.
On July 16 to the 18th, the
U.S. Department of State
hosted the second ministerial
to advance religious freedom,
where the United States invited
government and civil society
leaders from around
the world to discuss
current global challenges and
threats to religious freedom.
Among the many
horrific examples we
discussed during
the ministerial,
the Chinese government's
systemic repression
and detention of more than one
million workers and members
of other Muslim minority groups
in Xinjiang is among the worst.
Unfortunately, much
of the world remains
unaware of this
increasingly bleak reality.
Beyond awareness, there is also
a need for louder, more engaged
voices and stronger action
on this human rights crisis.
A number of governments
have condemned
the Chinese authorities
for these actions.
But they need to follow through
on holding China accountable
and encouraging other allies and
influential regional partners
to likewise put
pressure on China
to end the repression
in Xinjiang.
Today we have with
us a panel of experts
with deep knowledge
of what is happening
on the ground in Xinjiang.
We'll discuss many of
the repressive policies
the Chinese government
has implemented, including
the mass detention
of Muslim minorities
in sprawling internment camps,
the ramping up of high tech
surveillance as a tool
of social control,
and the Chinese government's
widespread disinformation
campaign to cover up or
change the perception
of their actions.
We'll start off by investigating
each of these issues
and getting the latest
updates from our panel.
Then we'll turn to you for
your questions and thoughts.
If you have a question
for the panel,
please submit it in
the comments section
next to the video player, or on
Twitter using hashtag Xinjiang.
Let me introduce our panel.
To my left is Dr.
Sophie Richardson.
She's the China Director
at Human Rights Watch
and the author of
numerous articles
on domestic Chinese
political repression.
She has testified before the
European Parliament and the
U.S. Congress.
Dr. Richardson has
provided commentary
to the BBC, CNN, The New York
Times, and many other media
organizations.
Also with us is Nury Turkel,
a U.S.-based Uygur rights
advocate and attorney
here in Washington, DC.
Nury was born in a reeducation
camp in China's Xinjiang region
at the height of the
Cultural Revolution in China.
He is chairman of the board of
the Uygur Human Rights Project
and one of its
co-founders, as well as
a past president of the
Uygur American Association.
He has been speaking publicly
on nearly a non-stop basis
over the past two
years, advocating
for a global response to the
crisis of the Uygur people,
appearing most recently as
one of the opening speakers
at the Oslo Freedom
Forum in May.
Also joining us today
is Alim Seytoff,
the director for the Uygur
service at Radio Free Asia.
He previously served as
the executive director
for the Uygur Human
Rights Project.
In 1999, he started at RFA
as a production coordinator
and broadcaster.
Throughout his career, Alim
has written many articles
on China's human rights
violations of the Uygur people,
and is frequently interviewed
about these issues
by leading media organizations.
Thanks to all of
you for being a part
of this important discussion.
Sophie, you and
your organization,
Human Rights Watch,
have engaged directly
on the Chinese government's
actions in Xinjiang.
What can you tell us about
your organization's work
on the issue, and
what have you learned?
DR. SOPHIE RICHARDSON:
Scott, first of all,
thanks so much for having us.
Human Rights Watch has
written about abuses of Uygurs
for 25 years.
A lot of that has
focused on restrictions
on religious freedom, torture
and enforced disappearances.
But in the last
couple of years, we've
focused on the establishment
of these political education
camps in which people
are arbitrarily
detained and essentially
forced to swear their loyalty
to the Chinese Communist Party.
And they're really simply
being detained because they are
Uygurs or other Turkic Muslims.
We've also spent a
lot of time looking
at abuses of
surveillance technologies
to track people's behavior
across the region,
and use that as further
evidence of suspicious behavior
and to detain people.
So I think we'll probably
talk more about that in a bit.
DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY
BUSBY: Thanks, Sophie.
Nury, you've spent years
working on these issues.
But recently there has
been a clear increase
in the repressive actions
of the Chinese authorities.
Can you share insights
from your perspective
on what is happening
right now in Xinjiang?
MR. NURY TURKEL: First I'd
like to thank the State
Department for organizing
this important discussion.
The Uygur repression under
the Communist government
in the last six decades did
not just happen overnight.
This has been taking place
as long as I'm breathing.
So the current
wave of oppression
really comes in existence
in the last two years,
particularly with Chen
Quanguo come to power
and this draconian measure
called the extremification
measure enacted in April 2017.
China's government ratcheted
up the pressure on the Uygur
people with a mass detention
and creating this police state.
So what the Chinese government
is trying to tell the world,
it does not fits the reality.
The Chinese government
claim that they are doing
this for security concern.
Every country has a right to
defend its national security
and national interest.
But this-- the ongoing
repression of the Uygurs
have geopolitical, political,
and cultural and even racist
context.
So the Chinese government
started a similar type
of re-education program
before building, constructing,
and managing the
current internment
camps that they wanted
to teach like a school,
manage like a prison, and
protect like a military,
with the purpose of breaking
up Uygur lineage, connection,
and family.
So it has nothing to do
with the security concerns
that they've been expressing.
If you look at the type of
people that they locked up,
it shows that they have
a very different purpose.
And the world need to
pay attention to this.
This is not about
the Uygurs anymore
because Chinese government
using this similar technology,
similar method, in
a way, to expand
its influence around the world.
As we speak, about there
18 countries already
adopted Chinese way of
monitoring their own citizens,
imposing a political repression.
DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY
BUSBY: Thanks, Nury.
Alim, through your work
at Radio Free Asia,
you focus the spotlight on the
Chinese government's campaign
of repression in Xinjiang.
What can you share with
us from your coverage,
and why is it important
to raise awareness
about these human rights abuses?
MR. ALIM SEYTOFF: Yes.
We have covered extensively
about Chinese government's
detention of the leaders,
especially after Chen Quanguo
became the party secretary
of the region in August 2016.
And we began to report on the
large number of disappearance
of Uygurs, detentions, and
also buildup of many police
checkpoints in Uygur villages,
towns throughout the region.
And we were able to confirm,
at least in the Kashgar
prefecture alone, 120,000 the
Uygurs have been detained.
Those detentions are
arbitrary, extrajudicial,
and also, most
people do not know
when they will be
released or graduate
from the so-called vocational
skills training centers.
But we have been able to
confirm that these are not
some kind of schools, but
these are in fact, indeed,
detention facilities
and the camps
by the Chinese authorities.
And China claims that
they are doing this
because of religious extremism.
They are helping
with the local Uygurs
so that they could help them
with cleansing our minds
of extremist thoughts.
But in our reporting,
we have found out
that many of those people
who have been detained
are not just the
so-called people who have
been influenced by extremism.
But we have confirmed that
university professors,
presidents, Uygur writers, Uygur
editors, Uygur sportsmen, Uygur
singers, Uygur artists, the
top of the cream of the Uygur
people, who make Uygur
people who they are,
have all been detained
in these Chinese camps
by the Chinese authorities.
And also we have interviewed
a lot of people overseas,
for example, in Europe,
in Canada, in the U.S..
And Uygurs, they have not been
able to contact their loved
ones for two or longer years.
And some of them, obviously,
become very vocal,
speaking to media,
speaking to us and others.
Then the Chinese government
basically showed their parents
or loved ones to
them once or twice,
basically warning these
people not to speak out again
about their detentions, and also
basically recant their stories
that Chinese government detained
their parents and the loved
ones.
And so we have been
reporting of all these cases.
And all of them indicate
that China is not actually
just educating this Uygur
people and at some sort
of vocational
training facilities,
but rather the
Chinese government
has been detaining these Uygurs,
not just the so-called Uygurs
under the influence
of extremism,
but also top of the
cream of the Uygurs.
DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY
BUSBY: Thanks very much, Alim.
Let's now talk about the
rapid and expansive growth
of the internment camps and what
is happening inside of them.
Nury, can you update us on this?
MR. TURKEL: Despite the ongoing
media scrutiny and growing
global concern, even
though there has not
been a governmental action
taken to rectify this situation,
China's government is still
managing and expanding
these camps.
Late last year, an
Australian think tank
and a media organization
have reported some figures
stating that in less
than 20-month period,
the expansion rate was 465%.
And in one instance,
the report also
indicate that the areas
that they surveyed,
the area of an expansion
is equivalent of 140 soccer
fields.
At the same time, the BBC
reported that the Chinese
government building the largest
prison camp just outside
of the regional capital, Ürümqi.
So there's no end in sight.
This is why we have to
call on the governments,
particularly in Europe, that
has a history of seeing,
witnessing, experiencing how it
ends when a government targets
religious ethnic minority.
We've seen this movie before.
The never again is
happening again in China.
This should not be lost
in translation in Europe.
So the Chinese government not
only managing and expanding
these camps, but
also promoting this
as a method, a model
for other countries
to deal with so-called
world's Muslim problem.
DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY
BUSBY: Thanks, Nury.
Another issue that has received
a lot of attention recently,
and is a key focus of
our discussion today,
is the increasing use of
sophisticated high tech
surveillance as a tool
of control and repression
in Xinjiang.
From widespread installation
of security cameras
to phone monitoring apps,
compulsory DNA samples
and police checkpoints,
the Chinese government
is heightening its
police state control
and monitoring of the life of
everyday people in Xinjiang.
Nury, what can you tell us
about this growing dystopian
reality in Xinjiang?
MR. TURKEL: As reported by
credible media organizations
and NGOs such as Sophie's
organization, my organization,
the life for the Uygur people
who are not in the camps
are even more difficult,
to say the least, simply
because Chinese government
have created a dystopian
system, environment, that you
only read in science fiction.
So anywhere that you
go, any moment you take,
is heavily monitored.
Just an example, if
you wanted to go about
with your daily life, go
to work or go to school,
you have to go through a
police checkpoint, iris scans,
biometric data collection,
unreasonable questions, search
and seizure.
In some have said they have
to run a mobile app scan
on your phone because every
Uygur phones reported by Human
Rights Watch have a compulsory
app, spying app that monitors
the communication, text
messages, online surfing.
And also, the Uygur people have
been subject to DNA collection.
This has been also
widely reported.
In addition to what's
happening in the society,
the Chinese intrusion already
in the lives of the Uygur people
in their homes, private homes.
So they have uninvited guests
from the Chinese government,
eat with them at
the dining table,
and sleep with them in
their bedroom uninvited,
and having their children
to spy on their parents,
monitoring their communication.
The children's honest
answer, in some instances,
resulted in their parents,
the kids' parents,
landing in internment camps.
DEPUTY ASSISTANT
SECRETARY BUSBY: Horrible.
Now let's take some questions
from the comments section
of those following
along on Twitter
using the hashtag Xinjiang.
Our first question
is from Dimas.
She asks, how can people from
other countries like Indonesia
effectively pressure
their governments
to stand up to China
when the governments are
worried about potential
economic backlash from Beijing?
Sophie, do you want
to answer that?
DR. RICHARDSON: Sure,
I'll take a stab at that.
It's a great question.
Thanks for asking it.
You know, we know that
Beijing shoves back
and that it will try to punish
other governments for standing
up to it.
But I think it's also very
important for citizens
who care about issues
like religious freedom,
or a sense that a culture
that's comparable,
or with which they have a
certain amount of sympathy,
or they're simply concerned
about human rights worldwide,
need to explain to
their own governments
that that's as of much value to
them as potential trade deals,
for example.
I think governments,
democratic ones,
have to respond to what
constituents say to them.
And I think it's
very important, also,
to think about it in terms of
allowing the Chinese government
to operate with impunity and
according to a double standard.
You know, do people
around the world,
in the U.S., in Indonesia,
want the Chinese government
to operate according to the laws
that it's freely signed up to?
Or is it smart for
other governments
to let China do whatever
it wants domestically
or internationally?
So I think it's worth
pushing these conversations
with governments on a
couple of different levels.
MR. TURKEL: The
societies in countries
like Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey
have a huge responsibility.
They are relatively
free in comparison
to other Muslim societies.
They should use their
democratic freedom,
took to the streets and protest,
demand their governments
to take an action.
At least tell the
Chinese that they
should stop their war on Islam.
The Chinese government
calling the Uygur Islam
as some sort of mental illness.
And this should upset
people in Indonesia,
Malaysia, and other
places who, if they really
care about their religious
values and religious practices
and belief, they should
be annoyed by this.
But I've even seen it.
But you know, at the
same time, we recognize,
as Sophie pointed out, Chinese
have been very effective
buying out silence from
these Muslim countries.
Case in point,
Pakistani Prime Minister
denied twice in
public media interview
even the existence
of these camps,
even though some of his
citizens been affected,
like your family
members being locked up.
And the next thing
you read on the paper
that he'd been given $3 billion
aid by the Chinese government.
In this kind of toxic
political environment,
it's very difficult to
convince the governments
unless the societal
support, societal pressure
exerted in these governments.
MR. SEYTOFF: With the Uygurs
as being Muslims and Turkic,
they expect, actually,
in Muslim countries,
and countries like Turkey,
other Turkey countries,
to support them in
the first place.
Many interviews
we have conducted,
a lot of these Uygurs
express their frustrations,
basically say, no, they're
not seeing strong support
actually coming from countries
like Indonesia, Malaysia,
or Turkey and other
Muslim countries.
But in fact, the support comes
from the United States, Europe,
and the Western
countries, basically
telling China to stop
this kind of repression
and close the camps
and release the Uygurs.
So most Uygurs are
really disappointed
by the lack of action
from the Muslim countries,
and by a lot of heads of
states in this countries
by just putting their
heads in the sand.
Not only that, but
in fact, supporting
the Chinese government's
repression of the Uygur people.
MR. TURKEL: One additional
point, if I may.
Saudi prince, who is grooming
to be the next King of Saudi
Arabia, and the custodian
of two holiest mosques
for the Muslim people,
went to Beijing
and faced the
Chinese government.
While his name, his
beard, his outfit,
his way of greeting fellow
Muslims been banned,
actually being criminalized.
How ironic, how
despicable that is.
At least these leaders
could tell the Chinese,
leave my religion alone.
That's not too difficult.
And today ironically
the Chinese government
is relying on countries like
Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, North
Korea to defend itself
on human rights records.
DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY
BUSBY: Troubling.
Maha RIti asks, what can
I do as a simple citizen
living in Europe and not really
engaged on Chinese issues,
but just concerned with freedom
and human rights worldwide?
Perhaps I'll start
with Alim this time.
MR. SEYTOFF: And I think
as individuals, we're
all concerned with freedom,
at least our own freedom,
our own privacy.
And we are affected by that
if the government intrudes
upon our rights as
individuals, as human beings.
If my right to name my
child is taken away,
if my right just to practice
my religion is taken away,
if my right to go to another
country or another region
is taken away, I'll
naturally be upset.
And what China is doing
to the Uygur people,
as we have reported many
international media--
CNN, BBC, all of them
report and confirm--
not only affecting
the Uygur people,
but also affecting the
Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Uzbek
peoples in the region.
And China is also portraying
that its repression
of the Uygur as a great model
for other countries to emulate.
China is even exporting
it is repression.
It's also high tech police
state to other countries.
A lot of countries are
buying their systems
to monitor their own citizens.
So this is affecting everybody.
So everybody concerned with a
situation of their own rights
should be concerned with the
rights of the Uygur people.
DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY
BUSBY: I don't know.
Sophie or Nury, do you have
further thoughts on what
people in Europe can do who are
concerned about this situation?
DR. RICHARDSON: Sure.
I think at a very
basic level, people
who live in democratic societies
can make use of their rights
on behalf of others.
Write a letter to your
local paper asking
what your government is doing.
Call your member of Parliament.
Get together with other people
who have similar concerns
and think about actions
that you can take together.
I mean, there's a lot more
room for even the governments,
European ones, the
U.S, Australia,
who have publicly
expressed concern
about Xinjiang to do things
beyond the joint initiative
at the Human Rights Council.
Contemplate imposing sanctions.
The U.S. Still hasn't imposed
global Magnitsky sanctions
on Chinese officials who
are engaged in abuses.
Same in some other countries.
But these are all tools
that I think sometimes when
individual citizens
or groups demand those
of their own governments,
in some ways, that's
a more effective
strategy than having
an international human rights
group say to a government,
you should be doing this,
that, or the other thing.
I think citizen power
is very compelling,
and politicians have
to respond to it.
MR. TURKEL: Just quick
additional point.
The letter, the joint letter
initiated by 22 countries--
now apparently 24--
is still open.
The invitation to join
that effort is still open.
We would love to see countries
like Hungary, Poland,
Czech Republic that
have experience,
survive fascism, Nazi
Germany, to join the effort.
And it's not that difficult
because at the end of the day,
history will not be kind to
those who feigning ignorance
in the face of these
atrocities taking place.
And also, people
need to realize there
is something really funny
and interesting happening.
The Chinese created
this false division
in the world, 50
countries against 22.
Which side are you on?
What kind of history,
what kind of future
that you want to leave
for your children?
That's a very simple
and legitimate question
that European people who
enjoy freedom to think about.
DEPUTY ASSISTANT
SECRETARY BUSBY: Yeah.
And I would note that
those countries not only
survived fascism, but also
many years of Communism.
So they have very
similar experience
to that of Uygurs and
other Chinese citizens.
Asia, a student at Al-Azhar
University of Indonesia,
writes, "Discussion
of this topic
so far has considered repression
from economic and ethnic
perspectives.
But what is the main factor
driving the repression?"
Sophie, do you want to
take a crack at that?
DR. RICHARDSON: Sure.
I think China has long reserved
a special kind of, I think,
hostility and scrutiny towards
Uygurs and other Turkic
Muslims.
They're certainly
not the only ones.
Many other communities
inside China
face suspicion on the
part of the government.
But I think because Uygurs have
a sort of pan Turkic identity--
the language, the culture is
more tied to or originating
from Central Asia--
it's perceived as being the
potential basis for separatism.
And particularly since the start
of the U.S.'s war on terrorism,
Beijing very effectively
expropriated that rhetoric
to accuse Uygurs very broadly
of being terrorists or being
extremists.
And it's used those
ideas and those
pretexts to really crack down
on that distinct identity.
The Chinese Communist
Party is not
a fan of any other
organizing vehicle that might
become a political challenge.
And so as you guys
mentioned earlier,
the idea of a distinct
ethno national identity
is, I think, perceived as
being particularly problematic.
And I think that's why you
see the government working
so hard to effectively
erase that distinct identity
through these
arbitrary detentions.
MR. TURKEL: Their stated goal,
the Chinese government's stated
goal, is to fight
against extremism.
They have this new term called
de-extremification effort.
And there's a Chinese
phrase for it as well.
It sounds ridiculous,
by the way,
because the people
that they locked up
for the extremification include
well-known scholars, athletes,
musicians, the custodian
of Uygur cultural heritage.
So it has nothing to
do with extremism.
But unstated goal-- to
me, pretty obvious from
the government statements,
official statements,
and also the process that they
build up to this point as early
as 2010--
has a lot of racist
context because they
think that Uygurs' ethno
national identity, if allowed
to exist, eventually will
pose national security threat.
And this has been echoed
by Chinese government's
official statements.
For example, one
of the people who
has been cited a lot in the
media and academic papers
promoted this idea to
find a final solution
to so-called Xinjiang problem
when Xi Jinping took office.
And he-- his name
is [INAUDIBLE]----
recommended that the government
should give up the carrot
and stick and implement stick
policy, the spirituality
that means that Uygurs'
way of appreciating
their cultural heritage, way of
life, the national existence,
eventually problematic.
So let's get rid
of this identity.
If anyone stands in the
way, send them to the camps
or to prison.
So they have very
specific mindset
that the Uygur
cultural values is
a problem in the long term
for the Chinese government.
MR. SEYTOFF: Thanks.
And if I may, it's two other
important reasons as well.
One is the collapse
of the Soviet Union.
China studied that very well.
They are very afraid that if
Chinese Communist Party rule
collapse Uygurs,
along with Tibetans,
others, may become
a separate country.
Another is Xi Jinping's
signature policy,
one belt, one road.
When you look at
geopolitically, the region,
the Xinjiang autonomous region,
sits at the corridor of this.
So for Xi Jinping's
signature policy to succeed,
these people who occupy this
region must be pacified.
And the current policies,
the Chinese government seems
to believe, do exactly that.
DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY
BUSBY: Thanks very much.
I understand we're
getting lots of questions,
so I would urge you to
be brief in response.
We want to get to
as many as possible.
Naam Din writes, "I I couldn't
contact my weaker relatives
back home for three years.
I learned from
secondhand sources
that some of my relatives died
in Chinese concentration camps.
I called the Chinese
Embassy for comment
and was told to go
back to China if I
want to ensure the well-being
of my family members.
What do you advise?"
Let me turn to Nury
first because I know
you have similar experiences.
MR. TURKEL: The
Chinese government
has been very effective
punishing the Uygurs who
live in the free societies.
In addition to managing or
constructing these camps
and creating this prison, open
air prison-like environment,
they are exporting
their repression
to the countries
around the world.
In the United States,
we have a handful
of Uygur Americans, American
residents of Uygur origin,
including ourselves.
We have not been able
to talk to our families.
The Chinese government
purposefully
doing this to cause anxiety,
create sense of guilt,
and put us in a desperate,
hopeless situation.
The situation got to this
point that we will not
know if somebody dies
because we lost contact
with our family members.
The Uygur people cannot
enjoy a regular life,
normal life that most of the
people in free societies enjoy,
such as holidays, calling Mom
and Dad and congratulating them
on their anniversaries
or birthdays,
grandparents missing
their children.
And this question goes to
the heart of the problem
that all of us around
the world experiencing.
So this can be fixed through
our governments and embassies.
I think the embassies around
the world with a sizable Uygur
population should establish
a hotline for the Uygurs
to call in, and
through the embassy,
to inquire their family
members' thereabouts and safety.
This cannot be done by an
individual Uygur person.
This has to be done by
governments through embassies.
Even diplomatic mission.
Send people out and investigate.
And demand if they reject
once, go back again.
This has to be persistent.
This matter is already way past
just a raising human rights
concern type of stage.
We have to be bold and little
bit aggressive, in a way.
DEPUTY ASSISTANT
SECRETARY BUSBY:
Alim, any additional thoughts?
Because I know you
have several colleagues
who are suffering from
this very problem.
MR. SEYTOFF: Yeah.
This is obviously
not an isolated case.
This is case of
every Uygur overseas.
Whether in the U.S., in
Canada, in Europe, every Uygur
has one or more relatives are
in these internment camps.
And most of them do not know
whether their relatives are
alive or dead, like
this individual who
has not been able to contact
his loved ones for three years.
And most people were
expecting that things
would change, China will release
them, things would be better.
So they have been quiet.
Only few of them dare
to speak up and talk
about it in spite of risk to
themselves, to their loved
ones.
And six of our reporters
and their loved ones
are in those detentions.
We haven't heard much.
Most of them do not
know what happened
to their parents, what happened
to their loved ones, brothers
and sisters.
So far we do not know.
Even though all six
of them went public,
and this doesn't mean
the other seven of them,
their relatives are safe.
And this has been happening
to all of the Uygurs,
whether we are Uygur Americans,
Uygur Europeans, or Uygurs
in other countries, this is
an extremely urgent matter.
And most Uygurs in
overseas now, they
are suffering psychologically.
They can't sleep,
they can't contact.
They don't know what to do.
But Chinese government is
holding their loved ones
hostage just making
sure their loved ones,
their relatives overseas
keep their mouths
shut, never raise any voice
about these detentions.
So this is a very
urgent situation.
DEPUTY ASSISTANT
SECRETARY BUSBY: Yeah.
Horrible.
Clearly Chinese
disinformation on this issue
is pervasive, and unfortunately
has had a strong effect
in downplaying the
realities of life
for Muslim minorities
in Xinjiang.
Whether it's the labeling
of the internment
camps as reeducation camps or
framing the repressive tactics
in Xinjiang as fighting
terrorism or secession.
This tactic has
been used to block
and divide international
criticism, especially
with majority Muslim countries.
What effect has the Chinese
government's false portrayal
of their treatment
of Muslim minorities
had on sidelining important
Muslim and Turkish voices
around the world?
Sophie?
DR. RICHARDSON: Well,
look, governments lie.
China doesn't have
a monopoly on that.
But I think the
particular dishonesty
that it has employed, denying
you know that there have ever
been human rights
violations in Xinjiang
or that the camps existed,
was so easily disproven
that in a way, it's been
helpful in continuing
to feed media attention,
challenging its claim.
It was just a week or so
ago that 90% of people
had been freed and
gone back to work.
But Beijing has
been very methodical
and calculating about getting
other particular voices
to buy into its narrative.
It's invited multiple
government delegations,
civic groups from countries
like Indonesia, for example.
And then it has decided to
report itself to the media
globally on what
those governments
and what those individuals
and organizations said.
And that's helped feed
support for its own narrative
in, for example, Organization
of Islamic Cooperation Member
States in other
parts of the world.
And so when China
needs to go to a couple
of dozen other
governments to say,
will you publicly
support our view,
governments will
sign on to that.
At the same time, I think there
is a real discussion underway,
particularly at the
Human Rights Council,
about how to get
the actual facts
because a number
of governments say
there are serious human
rights violations going on.
A number of others don't.
The logical thing to do in
those circumstances is to say,
we need independent observers to
be allowed access to the region
and to people there,
and to interview them,
to come back and report
to the world on the facts
that they find.
DEPUTY ASSISTANT
SECRETARY BUSBY: Helpful.
A number of countries have been
vocal, along with the U.S.,
in condemning China's
actions in Xinjiang.
But how can governments,
organizations, and people
around the world
take the next step
and demand that the
Chinese government is
held accountable for these
clear human rights violations?
Nury?
MR. TURKEL: Yeah.
Chinese government
has been conflating,
denying, and confusing the
global international community
with various claims,
even the euphemistically
calling the camps as
the boarding school
earlier this year.
They've been taking people
to show Potemkin villages,
showing sympathetic
reporters, the reporters
from sympathetic
governments and societies,
to echo Chinese propaganda.
And also, importantly, very
relevant to your office,
they claim that this
is in the United States
making the U.S is intentionally
creating this problem
to hamper China rise.
So there are a lot of
misinformation floating around,
and it's working.
The fact that when you flip
through some countries,
the newspapers and
online magazines,
the report that you see
echoes Chinese propaganda.
So what do we do about it?
We need to counter that
narrative, just the way
that the NGOs, the
various governments,
international bodies, forced
the Chinese to acknowledge
the existence of the
camps last summer.
And it's been very effective.
International bodies
like the United Nations,
various governments,
European Parliament
need to do something.
Sophie mentioned the
Global Magnitsky act.
The countries already have legal
tools United States, Canada, UK
and Estonia.
Empty talk means nothing.
Expressing concern-- I need
to borrow a Sophie's line--
is not the same thing
as taking action.
So the governments need to
realize it's time for action.
Business as usual
cannot continue.
And also, business community
has a big role into this.
They cannot just continue to do
business with this government
that is building modern
day internment camps,
or concentration camps,
to lock up more than 10%
of the population.
It's a matter of principle.
It's a matter of moral standard.
It's a matter of the
future for our children.
Actually, the question
is very simple.
This is about who we are as
a human being, as a society.
DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY
BUSBY: Thanks, Nury.
Now let's take some
final questions
from the comments
section and those
following along on Twitter
using the hashtag Xinjiang.
First question.
How are institutions in
the United States, both
the government and civil society
organizations such as Human
Rights Watch, supporting
Uygur and Uygur advocacy
groups abroad?
Perhaps, Sophie,
you can take that.
DR. RICHARDSON:
Sure, I can start.
But others should chime
in, too, since we all
work together quite a bit.
We have worked very closely with
Uygur organizations in the U.S.
and around the world,
both to share information
to strategize about how best
to approach governments to try
to support what the diaspora
communities need on issues
ranging from asylum cases
to trauma counseling
to cultural
preservation efforts.
And we try very hard to make
sure that what we're asking for
really broadly reflects the
views of the communities that
are affected.
DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY
BUSBY: Thanks for that.
A question from My America
in Jakarta, Indonesia.
If China uses the extremism
terrorism argument,
how should the international
community respond?
How do we address the
increase of tech surveillance,
specifically in regards to
its tension with privacy?
Nury?
MR. TURKEL: First of all, you
have to critically respond
to that claim.
There's nothing since 2005.
The violent incidents that
the Chinese government
likes to cite every
single time took place way
before they start
constructing these camps.
And the Chinese
government's claim
does not have any evidentiary
backing to support.
If this is a setup to
fight against extremism,
why would they lock up scholars?
Why would they lock up
university professors
and imposing the death penalty
with two years reprieve,
accusing them being
a two-faced official?
So it makes no sense.
The Chinese can claim--
I will say the same
thing 15 times--
but the reality is
that they are doing
this for very
different purposes,
to secure their insecurity.
DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY
BUSBY: Thanks for that.
How can Western countries
leverage their economic ties
to exert pressure on China?
How can they do more to
stop human rights violations
in Xinjiang?
Sophie?
DR. RICHARDSON: Well, I think
Nury mentioned earlier the role
of companies that I
think merits a lot
more scrutiny, both of the
companies based in the U.S.
or Europe, for
example, that don't
appear to have due diligence
strategies in place
to even assess
whether they might
be contributing to or
otherwise enabling human rights
violations.
Do all of the manufacturers
out there know
who is making their
products in Xinjiang?
Do they know who
their partners are,
whether those are government
or security apparatus partners?
Those are important questions.
Similarly, we've
written a lot about some
of the big Chinese tech
companies and their involvement
in repressing in Xinjiang.
They're investing
all over the world.
And I think, again, there
is a real discussion
to be had amongst governments
and publics about whether it
is appropriate to
let companies who
are responsible for serious
human rights violations, that
are implicated in serious human
rights violations inside China,
provide data and other
kinds of service technology
beyond China's borders.
Those are not the companies
that I want handling my data.
DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY
BUSBY: One final question.
What are the implications of
China's actions in Xinjiang
in the context of its ambitions
to expand its global reach,
such as through the Belt
and Road initiative?
Alim, do you have
any thoughts on that?
MR. SEYTOFF: Yes.
As soon as the Chinese
president, Xi Jinping,
start this Belt and
Road initiative,
and this current policy
went in tandem, basically
with Belt and Road initiative.
And as a result, we have sent
members of Uygur, Kazakhs,
other ethnic groups have been
detained in this internment
camps, families torn
apart, parents detained,
children are left in orphanages.
Uygurs overseas cannot
communicate with their loved
ones there.
And we have seen China's
government investing
in other countries,
Muslim countries,
all because of the Chinese
investment and the money,
either kept their
mouth shut or signed
onto the Chinese
government letter
in support of the Chinese
government's repression.
So the people live in
those countries that
are on the One
Belt, One Road, they
need to understand
the profit they
make from the Chinese
government One Belt and One Road
projects are at the expense
of weaker detentions,
Uygur sufferings.
At the pain of the Uygurs,
they are making this money.
DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY
BUSBY: Thanks, Alim.
Unfortunately, we're
now out of time.
Thank you for all your
questions and comments.
We've really covered
a lot of ground today.
Hopefully, those of
you watching will
continue engaging on
this critical issue.
Sophie, do you have any
final thoughts to share?
DR. RICHARDSON: Well, I think
one very broad thought is
about really seeing this problem
not just as a proximate issue,
but rather about holding China
accountable for gross human
rights violations
to the standards
and the legal obligations
it's freely signed up to.
And we find ourselves thinking,
if China gets away with this,
what else might it be
able to get away with?
DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY
BUSBY: Thanks for that.
Nury, any final thoughts?
MR. TURKEL: Yeah.
The Uygurs are canaries
in the coal mine,
and this matter should be
treated with the utmost urgency
because I worry every day that
if the Chinese government's
ongoing repression,
mass detention,
and this human engineering
project succeeds,
the Uygurs' proud, centuries old
ethno-tradition identity will
be destroyed.
And then if they fail, we're
talking about more than 10%
of the population.
Let's say if it's
one million, it's
more than the whole
Washington, DC population.
The whole Washington,
DC population
will be gone, in the
simplest way to put it.
If they fail, what are they
going to do with those people
that they locked up?
Why we don't see people
leaving the camps?
It's supposed to be
re-education, right?
If it's re-education,
when is the re-education
going to be completed?
So the world need to wake
up this brutal reality.
If this-- as Sophie pointed
out, if China could get away
with this-- we will see the
same model, same method,
same repression, same
camps all around the world.
The Chinese government
already, through global times
and its embassy
here in Washington,
promoting this idea to
solve so-called world's
Muslim problem with
a similar method.
New York Times cited
18 countries already
in the process of adopting
Chinese surveillance
technology.
There's a police cooperation.
As we speak, the
Hong Kong police
are learning from
the Xinjiang police
to suppress the protesters
in the streets of Hong Kong.
So this is a real problem.
This is a global problem.
So it requires, demands
global reaction.
DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY
BUSBY: Alim, final thoughts?
MR. SEYTOFF: Yeah.
We have reported for
the past several years,
basically, on this situation.
And other medias also have
went there, have been there
and did excellent reporting.
The world knows what's
happening there.
This is not like the
concentration camps
when the Jews were locked up.
The international
community was not
fully aware of what
was in those camps.
Now they are.
So they need to do
something about this.
DEPUTY ASSISTANT
SECRETARY BUSBY:
I'd like to thank our panelists
for their important insights.
Hopefully this
discussion can serve
as a catalyst for
greater awareness
of the abuses in Xinjiang
and the critical role we all
play in confronting them.
Thank you, and have a good day.
