[ Music ]
>> Welcome.
I'm Larissa Behrendt.
And I'm delighted to be facilitating
this panel, Institutional Change:
The Noise We Should Be Making.
And I'd like to start, on behalf
of myself and the panellists,
by acknowledging that we're on the land
of the Gadigal people
of the Eora Nation.
And as we pay our respects to
elders past, present, and emerging,
we ask that you take a moment to
acknowledge the traditional owners
of the land on which you are.
My guests are Associate Professor
Pauline Clague and Phillipa McDermott.
Pauline Clague is a Yaegl woman from
the North Coast of New South Wales.
She's also associate professor
and head of cultural resilience
at the Jumbunna Institute at the
University of Technology Sydney
and was a founder and is the artistic
director of the Winda Film Festival.
Pauline is one of the nation's
leading filmmakers and has focussed
on championing the works of
other indigenous filmmakers.
She's worked at the ABC, SBS, and NITV
as a producer and commissioning editor.
And Phillipa McDermott is a
Wakka Wakka and Mununjali woman.
She's the head of Indigenous Employment
at the ABC, and she is the chair
of the Bangara Dance Theatre.
She's been on the board of the Gadigal
Information Service and Koori Radio,
NASDA, NAISDA, the Media Ring, and the
Lloyd McDermott Rugby Development Team.
So we couldn't have a better panel
to take us through our theme.
And I might start with you, Pauline.
Obviously, one of the
things we like to do
as First Nations people
is orient our standpoint
and talk about where we're from.
And I want to ask both of you, but I'll
start with you, about where you're from
and what really shaped your world view.
>> So as a Yaegl woman, I suppose I'm
from Northern New South Wales,
the mighty Clarence River.
But in a lot of ways, I was
actually born in Alice Springs
because of my mum's work up in Northern
Territory and then, as a teenager,
moved to Sydney for education purposes.
And so, I think I've always
had really differing views
because of the fact that I travel.
And I've become a traveller
very early in life,
both here around our great
country, as well as internationally.
And I think being able to be in the
world, rather than observing it,
has been something that's
really helped that.
But, of course, my mum's a part
of a matriarchal line of a lot
of aunties and, you know, with
a couple of uncles peppered in.
And so, you know, those strong
women have always been a part
of cementing who I am as a filmmaker.
I think hearing the stories
from around Australia
and around the world has been something
that's really taught me something.
But I was really lucky when I stepped
into this industry, that we had elders
that supported us into the industry,
people like Uncle Bob Mazzer
and Nanny Justine Swandes [assumed
spelling], Uncle Lester Bostock,
you know, Gary Foley every once in
a while when he comes in and out,
Walt Saunders at the
Australian Film Commission,
and people like Marjorie
Anderson at ABC, that sort of kind
of were there just to help guide us
into spaces that hadn't had a lot
of indigenous voices in before.
>> And what about you Phillipa?
Tell us a bit about your background and
what's really shaped your world view.
>> Well, thanks, Larissa.
And hi, ladies.
It's so exciting to be here today.
So I'm a Mununjali and
Wakka Wakka woman.
Mununjali is my grandfather's
country, which is Beaudesert
through to Tweed Heads on the
North Coast of New South Wales.
And my grandmother's country is
Wakka Wakka up in Central Queensland.
And so, I think, obviously, my
aboriginal community and family
and country has shaped a lot of
my worldview, but also my mother.
She was Dutch.
And she came out here after the
second world war and met my father.
And she had a very interesting
I suppose introduction
to Australia being a migrant, not
really knowing anything about Australia
or aboriginal, the Torres
Strait Islander people.
And she met my dad and married a man
not really knowing what that meant,
you know, to be aboriginal.
So she had a really interesting
take on the world as well.
Being Dutch, they're very direct,
very kind of practical people.
And my father was very similar
to that, very hard-working.
All our families were very hard-working
and very practical and solutions-driven.
You know, so that really
helped me try and be positive
and help drive solutions
in the things that I do.
But also, my father was a really
empathetic person and loved our people,
you know, loved, loved,
loved our people.
He was so proud of us, you know, and
our resilience and our practicality
and the way we got through
things and get through things.
So that's really given
me a really positive kind
of way to look at our people.
And I've seen that resilience in so many
ways, you know, for the last, you know,
for all of my life but, you know, the
last 30 years or so in my working life.
And I think it is actually such a
big strength of our communities that,
you know, we are so resilient.
So yeah, that's kind
of been my take on it.
Also, obviously, community
and strong women, you know,
absolute matriarchs in my family.
My grandmother, who was
98 when she passed away,
and up until two years before that,
was still in community theatre
and doing things out,
you know, in communities.
So yeah, absolutely agree with
you there with the strong,
you know, matriarchs and women.
>> I think the other thing
that you have in common,
it goes to something Pauline spoke to,
which is when she recognised the
generation that's come before.
And you both have parents who
were really instrumentally
at the barricades breaking down
the hurdles that had faced them
so that our generation
could come through.
I guess we all share that experience
of having grown up as children
of the people who were
in the rights movement
and we've I guess been the ones, the
first ones, to go into institutions
and change them from within.
But we did have that experience
growing up with these people
who were making sure those changes
happened, that great generation.
So I thought before we
talked a little bit more
about institutional changes we should
be tackling now, it might be good
to get your reflections on what
you've seen, since you're both really
at the front line from being
kids, particularly I guess
over the last 30 years,
what you've seen.
I'll start with you, Pauline, about some
of the real changes we've
seen in that time.
>> I'd actually go back another
10 years and say how amazing it is
that the Aboriginal Legal Service
celebrates its 40th year this year,
that the AMS celebrates its
40th anniversary next year,
that all of these foundational
organisations started themselves
out of action for doing
better for our people.
And so, they sort of kind of really
were rooted in trying to come
up with the solutions that, you
know, Phillipa was talking about.
All of our parents were trying to
make sure that the work that was done
in policy and stuff was not all with
government, was not just a piece
of paper that was left in parliament
but that it was actual action.
And so, being a part of watching
them as we grew up and being a part
of that active place was something that
I think is really important to remember,
that our people still need
to have self-determination,
that there is still some work that
needs to be done in that area.
And that, you know, for me, the
Howard Government, I call it an era
of complacency, sort of taught us
a little bit of non-action in a way
because we had to learn how to
survive against rules that were placed
into the way of communities being
able to do what they needed to do,
to make sure that communities
were safe and communities thrived.
And so, I think there's a bit in that
I have an issue with reconciliation
as a part of that era
because I didn't see a lot
of action within that sort of space.
It was a lot more of a
sort of smokescreen of work
that should have been done a
lot more on the grassroots.
And so, I think a lot of us have
stayed within the grassroots at times.
You know, I work within institutions,
but I very often don't stay
within those institutions because
I know there's work to be done back
out in the community as well.
So I think that's where, for me,
we're at another purpose, like,
where we're about to try and see what
the change will be and how do we change
and affect that future so that there's
a lot more action attached to it.
>> Before I ask Phillipa that
same big-picture question,
I wonder if we could just
get also a snapshot from you?
You've worked so much in the area,
particularly film and television,
of what you've seen in
terms of those changes.
A very important area because it relates
to our storytelling and our visibility.
What do you think have been some of
the fundamental changes we've seen?
>> I think like most filmmakers,
when you first get given the tools
to have the voice, you do the sort
of kind of autobiographical sort
of stories, you know, like
-- And we're now seeing --
You know, when we first started,
we could count, on our hands,
the amount of filmmakers that
were around us 30 years ago.
And now, when you look at it, you know,
you hardly know some of the new ones.
It's so amazing.
Technology has allowed us to
increase the space to engage people
in different ways, but also
we're allowed to have the freedom
of being able to move into other
areas of genres and of other.
You know, it's not just documentary
and work that we're doing anymore.
It's being able to play within the
spectrums of all arms of television.
We still have a lot of stereotyping
to get rid of within media.
And I think that's something that, you
know, we're working on all the time
and trying to figure out how do
we engage the rest of our audience
and mainstream your audience to
change the way in which not just us
as filmmakers, but other people as
filmmakers see our people on screen.
>> I also want to get into those
details with you too, Phillipa,
but just to go back to that big-picture
question of, from your perspective,
what have been some of the
bigger shifts that you've seen,
particularly in institutions
over the last I could say 40.
I was being polite in saying 30
because we're all of a similar age.
But, you know, over those
last few decades.
>> Well, really, over that period.
I mean, I started working in aboriginal
affairs, was my first job out of uni.
I studied journalism and politics,
and I worked in aboriginal affairs.
So the change that I've seen
literally has actually been enormous.
And I think it's hard to
explain that to younger people.
But, you know, initially
and even before that --
So that was kind of late-80s
and early-90s.
But before that, I think through the
'60s and the '70s and the changes there,
aboriginal people had a
seat at the table then.
You know, like they were literally
working with ministers and politicians
and they were taking
our concerns seriously.
And we made all of those, you know,
amazing changes like the ALS, you know,
self-determining ALS,
medical service, et cetera.
And then there was that kind of seismic
shift after ATSIC and the Howard era
that really disrupted a
lot of that progression.
And so, kind of you think,
you know, we went backwards.
But in some ways, I think it was
quiet, the progress we were making.
And what took over from that was
reconciliation institutionally, I think,
and a people's kind of movement.
And I really can say that
I was never a great fan
of reconciliation in the beginning.
I always thought it was something
for white people, you know,
or non-indigenous people, what do
we have to reconcile, you know?
And they changed the frame of that,
you know, and changed the name as well.
It wasn't, you know, the council
for aboriginal reconciliation.
It's now Reconciliation Australia.
And we've actually been on that
journey for nearly 30 years.
And the changes that I have seen,
especially in the media, are enormous.
I was literally talking to a
colleague in Canberra who's been
in the press gallery for 30 years.
And they said when that Marbo decision
came down, they had politicians.
She was interviewing one politician.
He took the mic out of her hand
and said your backyard will
be taken by these people.
You know, and the front
page of every newspaper,
it was hysteria across Australia.
And that didn't just go for
a day; that went for weeks
and weeks and months and years.
And the kind of racism,
you know, and stereotyping
that the media was portraying
then now would never happen.
You would never see a
front page like that now.
I mean, you might get the
odd kind of local, you know,
community newspaper or
something like that.
But to me, you can see the shift
that, you know, no media institution
or media organisation would ever
have a headline like that anymore.
So that's a big change, you know?
I mean, unless you can
remember what happened then,
you know, it was an enormous change.
And also, I think in
employment, you know,
is incredibly resilient now, you know?
People are finishing high
school and going to uni.
If you look at the closing
the gap targets,
you'd think we hadn't gotten anywhere.
Like really, it's so depressing.
But the reality of it is, I go to
graduations and I see corporates waiting
to grab these kids and
employ them, you know?
I can't keep up with them because where
I work doesn't necessarily pay as much
as these corporates do, you know?
And that's another huge change.
We would never have had, like us, we
would never have had those opportunities
when we left uni, you know?
We had to kind of, you
know, take a different path.
So I can see that change.
And I do think reconciliation has had
something to do with breaking down a lot
of barriers and reconciliation
action plans and what have you.
So I think that has helped organisations
focus and have targets to actually focus
on to start breaking down
those institutional barriers.
I'm not saying we're
there yet by any means,
but I think it's definitely
helped, and I've seen a change.
>> Because I'm quite interested in
the way that, both of you really,
sort of you've been working in areas
where you've been agents of change
but in different ways have
also sought to build capacity,
the capacity of other indigenous people.
And so, just to pick up on
that point around employment.
I mean, you actively work in the
employment space now, Phillipa,
although you've kept
your hand in, you know,
Gadigal and you've kept
your hand in Bangarra.
So you kind of do both.
But I was wondering, from your
perspective, why has that been
such an important strategy for
you to go into a workplace and try
and make change from within in that way?
>> Yeah. Well, it's interesting.
I never thought I would
work in employment.
To tell you the truth, it was the
last thing I ever thought I would do.
And the reason why I
ended up in employment is
because I was really interested
in economic development.
So I moved out of media and into
the economic development area.
And where I was working at the time did
employment and economic development at,
you know, the Department of
Employment and Workplace Relations.
And economic development and our
people starting their own businesses
and getting into business is
what really excited me, you know,
to break off those shackles of welfare.
And I could just see that, you know,
it would be such an amazing thing,
you know, for people to do that.
And so, I did a bit of both, more
economic development than employment,
although managed a few
employment contracts.
But that was on a macroscale with
industry, so working with, you know,
companies like Wesfarmers, doing
contracts with them, getting, you know,
3 or 400 people in at a time.
So really looking at the bigger
picture across various industries.
And I'd never worked in an
organisation doing employment,
like at that kind of micro-level.
And then I got the job at the ABC.
And it was weird because
I understood media.
It kind of worked because I knew, you
know, the industry and also, you know,
the idea of doing the employment
stuff really interested me
because I've always -- The thing that
I love about media is the truth-telling
that we can bring to that and also
knowing that we had to get more people
and more capacity in the media
of our people telling our
stories from our own perspective.
So it kind of was my
dream job in one sense
because I could kill two
birds with one stone.
And so, that's what's been driving me
there, is getting more employment there.
But, you know, there are
barriers in every institution
and reasons why they hadn't had, you
know, that many people there before.
So that's kind of what we're
working on now, is trying to break
down those institutional barriers
that have been holding people back.
And, you know, there's
a myriad of things
that you need to do in that space.
And it's interesting,
but it's hard work.
You know, it's going
through policies, procedures.
It's that kind of banal
that you have to go through.
It's HR practices.
It's what have you.
But then for us, in the media, it's
also, you know, looking at the images
that journalists are using when
they're telling stories, you know,
stereotyping people or old
images or what have you.
So, you know, on every level, you have
to go, you know, through the institution
to see where those blockages
and barriers are.
And it's not easy, and I can't
imagine in another industry
like the legal profession or,
you know, the justice system.
You know, I mean, they're not
insurmountable, but it takes a lot
of work, you know, and
dedicated people to do that.
>> Pauline, it's hard to find another
filmmaker who's probably done as much
to train and develop through other
indigenous filmmakers as you have.
You're constantly running a whole
range of training programmes
and encouraging all kinds of people,
including myself, to get into filmmaking
as a way of telling stories.
So in a way, I think you've done a
similar thing where, in your own right,
you've been a filmmaker who's been
telling stories and, you know,
gone into areas like being at the
forefront of the setting up of NITV,
creating new institutions
and new opportunities.
But you've really got a focus
on capacity building slightly
different to Phillipa.
But, you know, I think it's,
in a way, a similar goal.
Why has that been something that
you've been so committed to?
>> Probably because being one
of the first producers and being
out on your own, I needed other
people of like-minded around me.
And so, I needed to train people.
And, you know, when we started Message
Stick back at ABC, we said we were going
to turn a six-part episode into 40 eps.
And so, we needed 40
directors around the country.
And so, we just like thought, let's take
it out and let's find the filmmakers,
and let's train them, and
let's put the effort behind it.
I think I was really lucky that I
was trained well at the film school
and given the tools enough to be able
to dialogue it across to other people.
I believe that a lot of our community
needs more pathway training as well.
And so, I spent a lot of time
mentoring people for years,
rather than just doing a
one-off training thing.
You know, the young kids that I've been
training for the last couple of years,
I still cook them dinner once a
week during COVID and drop it off
and give them food and check-in and
see how they're doing and try and come
up with creative ways for them
to keep doing work while
they're in this strange time.
And I think that that's something
that's really important to our community
because identity is also about
being able to have the voice.
It's no point sort of kind of not having
the tools to be able to have your voice
because then you can't engage with
the rest of society if you don't feel
like you're valued or
you're seen on screen.
And so, you know, at the moment,
we're about to work with a couple
of really young kids just because I feel
like there's that early childhood stuff
that needs a little bit of work.
And I think that's one of the
things that even working at NITV.
I was at the film school just before
it, and I left the film school
because I was like, now, I
need to create the pathway.
And so, I went to NITV to create
the pathway of some, you know,
filmmaking techniques and some stories
that people could do around the country.
And that's how Our Stories,
Our Way, Every Day started.
And I think that's something that's
really important for us to do
because it's not just about decolonizing
institutions by putting a lot of people
in it, but it's also
about indigenizing spaces.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, the work
that our community has
in knowledge base is really
important to still share.
It's not about turning someone why or,
you know, like it's not either all.
It's about trying to work out what
the balance is for your life and so
that your voice is represented
out there, whether it's the media
or within institution so that
you feel safe and you're able
to have freedom of thought.
You've got to remember, we're the first
generation that has freedom of thought.
You know, our parents
couldn't go off missions
without getting a mission
manager to sign off
on them leaving their community.
And so, we have an obligation to
that back history of colonised people
and being able to rise
up and give the tools
to our younger generation
to be empowered.
>> Yeah. Well, we are talking
about institutional change,
the noise we should be making.
I was wondering, Phillipa, given all
of the places you've tried to push
for change, what are some of your
reflections on what people can do
if they are in positions
where they do want
to fundamentally change the
institutions they're working in?
>> I'd like to just go back
to something Pauline said,
and then I'll answer that question.
Larissa, about capacity building.
If there's one shining
example in our community,
it is aboriginal film and television.
That was an industry that was
literally built by you guys, yourself
and Sally Riley, Rachel
Perkins, you know,
all of you trailblazers
that came from nothing.
So, you know, aboriginal media was
mainly focussed around radio initially.
And you all set about to
actually start that industry,
that film and television industry.
And I was there when you guys were doing
that and going and lobbying for money
for NITV and, you know, the whole thing.
And look what you've built.
I mean, this is one absolute
success story that has had
so much impact I think as well
with the rest of Australia
but also internationally, you
know, telling those stories,
having our people telling those stories.
But you've literally built that
industry and the capacity of filmmakers,
trained them up, sent them off, you
know, to do courses; brought them back,
showed them how to do it, you know,
put them in writer's rooms, you know,
showed them the whole process, had
non-indigenous people to help you
as well along the way, built up that
generation, and then move them on out
into the industry and now
bringing in, you know,
another round of young filmmakers
and television, you know, makers.
And that has been a phenomenal success.
I think aboriginal media has
shrunk a lot in terms of that kind
of legacy traditional media.
But film and television has really
created this incredible pathway
but also led to a lot of people opening
up on other platforms, you know?
So that is really exciting
in a way because your voice.
You don't need to be in a
traditional radio station or, you know,
what have you to get
your message out there.
And even on social media and all the
stuff you can do, video on social media,
the impact that a two-minute video
or whatever can have has really changed
the game for us I think in terms
of getting our point of view across.
So thank you to you and all your
trailblazers in that industry
because that has been an incredible --
>> We're just following the
footprints of other people.
>> Of course.
Of course.
And there was a dream, you know,
through the boss stocks and, you know,
Uncle Bob Mazzer, and all of those
actors and producers, you know,
of our parents' generation.
Of course, you know, we have been able
to and you have been able to follow
that through, which is just
such an incredible success.
>> I have to say, I never imagined
when I became inaugural chair of NITV
to just oversee the governance
that Pauline would one day
actually get me into filmmaking.
So it's sort of been a
nice closing of the circle.
>> But that has been a strategic goal,
right, of the people in that industry
to build capacity and to actually,
literally, build it from scratch.
And so, that is a shining example of
how we can go about building capacity.
And there are lots of
other ways to do that.
So to the second point, or we could use
that as a great example on other ways
to build on that, to the second
point about institutions.
So the question was how
do we try to break
down those barriers in institutions.
Was that the question?
I forgot.
>> Yeah. It's how do you make change
from within because we've done a lot
to make change by having
a competing institution.
And Pauline mentioned earlier,
legal services, medical services.
And you've done a great articulation
of what's happened in the media film.
But yeah, I guess there is the
question how about, you know,
an institution like the ABC
or an institution, you know,
like a university, when you're in those
institutions, how do you move change
from within because both of you
are doing both of those things.
>> Yeah. Well, look.
It has to happen at a lot of levels.
And I think -- And we can't just
do it by ourselves, you know?
We need to be able to influence people
who have the remit around the areas
where we're finding the blockages.
So it's actually about
why are we doing it.
What is this institution going
to get and how is it going
to make this institution better by us
convincing people and influencing people
to work with us to break down
those barriers and changes?
And, you know, around diversity, I think
that idea of diversity is fantastic.
But I think one thing I like at
the ABC is, when I got there,
there was a very clear difference
between indigenous and diversity.
So my area is called
indigenous employment,
and so our team is indigenous
employment, diversity, and inclusion
or just indigenous, diversity,
and inclusion because the staff
that were there at the beginning said
we can't be put in the same category
as the rest of the diverse
cohort because our challenges are
so different to, you know, people
from non-English-speaking
backgrounds and what have you.
So they've made a clear line there.
And I think that's been
one of the successes.
And I'd probably encourage any
industry out there to do the same thing,
not just to have indigenous,
you know, in with diversity,
actually have a separate
stream for that.
And I think that's given us also an
opportunity to build an understanding
of the issues around indigenous
people and what the barriers are.
I mean, non-English-speaking
people or people, you know,
women or what have you, they might come
to a place work-ready or job-ready.
Our people might not.
So we have to go, you know, put in
measures and steps to actually get them
to the capacity to be even
able to apply for a job.
So, you know, there are all of
these other kind of barriers
that we are working on
and trying to break down.
So that's one thing.
And then the other thing
I think is, you know,
then influencing the people that matter.
But for me, you know -- And then
going through all of those policies
and programmes and what have you.
I mean, it's painstaking
work in a lot of ways.
But you can actually see then, okay,
if this HR policy, for example,
is a barrier to somebody getting
employed, then we need to change
that recruitment process because,
you know -- So something simple,
like putting a job up for two
weeks on SEEK is not going
to find you necessarily
indigenous candidates for that job.
You have to go the next step.
You have to put it in aboriginal
media, The Courier-Mail,
or whatever it's going to be.
You have to maybe have
it open for a month.
So, you know, by the time the word
gets out there, people pass things on
or what have you and
spread the word out.
So then, you know, you're going to
kind of give people more time to put
in their application and [inaudible]
like leaving things to the last minute,
you know, sometimes and
that kind of thing.
So just little, simple things
like that and then, you know,
slowly breaking down those barriers.
But I think the biggest
thing for me is culture
in any industry or any workplace.
And you can have all the plans you like,
and you can change all the processes,
and you can have a rap and
you can do this and do that.
But if you can't change
the culture or the culture
of that organisation doesn't change,
then it's going to be a harder slog,
you know, to see the end result
of doing all that other work.
And that's kind of the pointy end, what
I call the pointy end of inclusion.
So you can do all these
things to be inclusive
and make your workplace a
great place, but the culture
of where you work is going to
be the most important thing.
And if it's not a positive
inclusive culture, then, you know,
people are going to come in,
but then they're going to leave.
So there's a great saying that
culture eats strategy for breakfast.
And that is the truth.
So I think, at the end of the day, it's
changing, trying to change the culture
because the culture does
not keep up with the change
of all of those other things.
You know, it's a bit of future shock.
You know, you get all that part of the
puzzle right, changing it, making it,
you know, an open place to come to.
But if the people don't have that
mindset that they want to be inclusive
and include you and value your, you
know, and respect your opinions, value,
you know, what you have to say and
your difference, if people don't feel
like they're progressing
in an organisation,
then they're going to leave.
And all of that kind of
stuff is part of the culture.
>> What are your thoughts
on that, Pauline,
because I don't think you've
been in an institution,
or you haven't tried to really --
>> Break it.
>> Really significantly change it.
I mean, I think that's one of
the reasons you go in there.
So what are your reflections?
>> I think a lot of institutions
have an issue about risk aversion
and you can't do change without risks.
And so, placing indigenous or diverse
people into jobs sometimes is seen
as a risk aversion rather than the
right thing to do for that organisation
and how it will benefit
that organisation.
So often, executives and heads
have to have a transparency to us
so that we can call bs
on them, you know?
And sometimes we don't call it.
We just do what we do.
And then we suffer the
sort of knuckle of it.
I mean, you know this.
You've been my boss.
Knuckle us over.
You know, we get the
rap over the knuckles.
But it's helped to change then
the structure within the space
because then they start to see
what the movement and the change is
because there's no, like Phillipa said,
there's no point doing all this work
if it's not a safe place to
thrive within those businesses.
>> Yeah.
>> And so, sometimes you need to
put people's heads and clash them
up against each other and
go knock it off, you know,
like this is how we're going to do it.
And that's why I'm saying, for
me, sometimes it's not just
about decolonizing or, you
know, opening that space,
but it is about indigenizing
those spaces.
It's about showing them what the
richness of having many cultures
in a space will do to lift the way
in which they thrive themselves.
And often, what we find is that those
institutions will either fight back,
or they open up and they make
really big changes, you know,
like having currently working at UTS
and having them say that their strategy,
one of their key strategies is
indigenous as a pillar that they stand
on is something that's
really impressive.
They still have to do work.
I mean, we all still
have to do the work.
But it means that we can talk to the
executive in very truthful ways and say
to them, hang on, that's not
the right way for community.
And that's why I work
in the places that I do,
is so that community have the space
to be able to do what they need to do.
It goes back to self-determination.
It goes back to being
able to have the freedom
to have the job that they need to have.
You know, for so long, our
people haven't had the education,
and so there's a lot of
teaching that needs to be done.
They haven't been given
the opportunity to travel.
And so, there's that, but
there's a lot of knowledge
out there in our communities.
And instead of them being ripped out
from them, then power them up, you know,
like, let's power our
community up to be in spaces
that are helpful for them to thrive.
>> Actually, that reminds me as well,
that I think when you
have those conversations,
it has to be a culturally
safe space to have them.
And so often we've gone down, you know,
institutions have gone down this path
of trying to, you know, get, you know,
people employed there and what have you
without actually having that scaffolding
for people to be able to speak out
and tell them what the challenges are
and feeling safe enough
that they can do that.
And the majority of people
won't do that in workplaces
because they don't feel safe.
They think their jobs are, you know --
Especially if they're younger as well.
I mean, you know, you don't
want to rock the boat.
You don't.
You know, you just got into this place.
You know, you don't want to do that.
And a lot of the time, there is not
a safe cultural space for people
to be able to do that as well
and express their culture.
And especially in the work areas
that we work in, you have to be able
to tell those stories culturally,
appropriately, and not be questioned
by people as to why you're
making those decisions, you know?
I mean, obviously, to some degree, yes.
But around cultural stuff, you have
to have a culturally safe space.
And that's the capacity
building of organisations
and what I call blackifying
a place that is kind
of the next frontier
I think is us trying
to build those culturally safe spaces.
>> I just want to mindful of the
time, but I just feel like we're
in this period where COVID's completely
changed the way people are living
and the way they're thinking and
will change our lives going forward.
And we've had this enormous momentum
around the black lives matter movement,
which also feels I think, for those of
us who've been marching in the streets
against deaths in custody
since we were kids,
also feels like a huge shift as well.
So I just wanted to get your reflections
on, given the times we're in,
is this an opportunity
actually to rewrite the way some
of our institutions are working.
What are the opportunities?
I know it's a big question and
we've not got a lot of time.
But I'd just be really interested to
get a couple of your thoughts about it.
And I might start with you, Pauline.
>> Yeah. I think institutions into risk
aversion during COVID, that's the issue.
And so, it's about how do we
power up now to get ready for,
once COVID in some shape changes a
little bit so that we can go back
into society, but also to
understand that, as storytellers,
we understand non-linear systems.
And so, a lot of our community
is actually thriving in COVID.
We also know what it feels
like to live in poverty.
We have very good tools in terms of
champagne existence on beer budgets.
And so, you know, there is
this element of going ah okay,
and we're used to being under
the thumb of government policies.
So there is a bit of a sort of
like lessons that could be learnt
from indigenous Australia right
now because we've been used
to policy shifts every four years
and a whole lot of other stuff.
So we sort of kind of we've just
gone on with the job I think.
You know, I've been my busiest in
this last six months helping community
out and, you know, doing
training and doing --
And I think that's something that is
really important, is let's power up
and get ready for helping institutions
to change the way they need to change
for the future of the world really.
>> Well, I've seen through that
conversation, black lives matter,
a lot of shift actually
and especially in the media
about the way we tell those stories
and who should be telling those
stories and the perspectives.
And it really has made
people think that, you know,
definitely have made some
mistakes along the way.
But I think, you know, it has
actually made people focus
on who should be telling those
stories and what perspective.
So I think that's been
really interesting,
and I think that's been
a positive thing for us.
And also, I think about innovation
in this kind of time of hibernation.
Our people have always innovated.
We've had to.
We haven't had a choice.
We've had to be resilient
and innovate all the time.
>> And adaptable.
>> And adaptable and flexible.
And we have actually
been doing that forever.
That's why we've been here for 6,000
plus years because we have innovated
and adapted to our environmental
whatever the challenge is.
And I think you're right, totally.
We are doing that now, and we're seeing
that through again online, you know,
things that are happening online,
conversations that are happening,
businesses that are springing
up, you know, and pivoting.
Using that word, that seems to be the
buzzword at the moment, but people are.
You know, and the conversations shift
and we are telling the conversation now.
So I think it has actually
been a good thing.
And I love this idea
of working from home.
I think that, for us, is going to
be another really fundamental shift
because we can be on country.
And if we get the NBN or whatever,
we can be anywhere and do our job.
And I think that is, you know, going
back to communities and being able
to work from there, is just going
to revolutionise so much stuff
and we can bring all that capacity back.
>> But also that strength
of the motivation of the we.
You know, a lot of us
talk in the we a lot.
We're not in the I.
And so, you know, even under COVID,
I haven't been able to go home.
I won't risk it.
I've went home once very
early while I could.
And I think for me, it's about
also that thing of understanding
that there is a community that's
here and how do we integrate
and help each other out in this space.
>> Well, what a privilege to spend some
time with you talking about these issues
when you've both not only tried to get
into institutions and take them kicking
and screaming towards some change,
but have been instrumental in setting
up alternative institutions to
really give a larger capacity.
There's so much to learn
from what you've both done.
And if this was not a COVID situation,
you would have thunderous applause right
now to thank you for all the wisdom
and insight that you've given us today.
So I'd like to thank the
audience, who've taken the time
to listen to the conversation today.
And I hope you take the wisdom with you.
