The author (It’s OK to Laugh and No Happy Endings) and host of the podcast Terrible Thanks For Asking returns in front of live audience in Minneapolis. She, Paul and the audience share their fears and loves and answer some questions.

Episode notes:



More About Our Guest

Check out her books and where to buy them at www.noraborealis.com/book

Follow her on social media @NoraBorealis

And of course check out her great podcast Terrible Thanks For Asking

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Episode Transcript:



Welcome to Episode 418, with my guest, my return guest, Nora McInerney. Today's episode is sponsored by SquareSpace. Turn your great idea into a reality with SquareSpace. SquareSpace makes it easier than ever to launch your passion project, whether you're showcasing your work or selling products of any kind. With beautiful templates and the ability to customize just about anything, you can easily make a beautiful web site yourself. And if you do get stuck, SquareSpace's 24/7 award-winning customer support is there to help. So head to squarespace.com/mental, for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use the offer code "mental" to save 10 percent off your first purchase of a web site or domain.

[00:00:44] My name is Paul Gilmartin. This is the Mental Illness Happy Hour: a place for honesty about all the battles in our heads, from medically-diagnosed conditions, past traumas and sexual dysfunction, to everyday, compulsive negative thinking. This show's not meant to be a substitute for professional mental counseling. I'm not a therapist. It's not a doctor's office. It's more like a waiting room that doesn’t suck. The web site is mentalpod.com. Mentalpod is also the, uh, social media handle you can, uh, follow me at on Twitter and Instagram. There's also a, uh, Facebook, uh, show page, and, uh, a forum on our web site as well. And, for those of you, I sometimes get emails from people that wanna know how they can take the surveys. Well, if you go to our web site, you'll see, uh, a little link there that says surveys. So you can either take one, um, or many. And you can also browse other people's, uh, responses, which I find pretty fascinating. Obviously I did it, uh, I do it every week.

[00:01:51] A shout-out to those of you that are Patreon donors, monthly Patreon donors. You’ve probably been notified already, but, uh, I took a chunk of bonus material from this episode, um, and put it on Patreon. So, there's an additional, I dunno, 30, 40 minutes of, uh, of this episode if you are a Patreon donor.

[00:02:18] Let's see … Let's, uh, kick things off with an awfulsome moment. This was filled out by … a woman who calls herself "In My Feelings," and she writes, "I went to a gay club with my friends because my co-worker invited us. She's a cool, more masculine lesbian who I've been attracted to for months, but recognized it as only that. She's also 15 years my senior. We danced together sensually with liquor in our systems. I'm married to a man, but he doesn't mind me exploring this side of my sexuality. I pulled in close to her and kissed her gently on the neck and she said, 'Careful. We have to work on Monday.' I've been lusting for her ever since, and we've been texting nonstop since then. Not sure what to make of this whole situation." And the reason I wanted to read, uh, this is because you said that you're … married to a guy and he doesn't mind you exploring this side of your sexuality. And I was just going to suggest, if you're not already, just keep things transparent between, uh, between you and him so that you both kind of, uh, are on the same page. People I know who are in polyamorous relationships, uh, it's really important for them to, uh, make sure that there isn't any kind of miscommunication or that one person thinks, well, this, you know, means one thing and the other person thinks it means something else. So, uh, just my two cents.

[00:03:48] I got this email from somebody. And, you know, I love getting emails where people share that the podcast has helped them in, in some way. And, this might be one of, uh … the coolest emails that I've gotten from somebody. And, um, he writes—this is from "Mark." He writes, "I just listened to your episode with the IRA volunteer." That's the episode with, uh, Jake, um, who is a former, uh, IRA soldier/volunteer. "As a young man, I was in the British army and was trained to hate people like this. I was not given the valuable insight that this man so eloquently articulated in your pod. I've seen the movies about Bobby Sands, and it doesn’t change my opinion. Just listening to this man was what I and anyone on the 'other side' needed to hear at that time. This type of conversation is really something that everyone needs to hear before entering armed conflict."

[00:04:52] This is an awfulsome moment filled out by, uh—(laughs) I love this name—a woman who calls herself "Am I Pretty Now." And, uh, she writes, "I've managed to monetize my insecurities and professionally people-please as a self-employed cosmetologist. It's the most stressful thing keeping my business afloat, especially because I'm a very plus-size, which is in direct conflict of many traditional expectations of a beauty professional. For the last few weeks, I've been prepping for a photoshoot scheduled with my work partner and my husband for earlier today. A few days ago, in a manic effort to distract from my obvious unworthiness, I engaged in some 'self-care.' Unfortunately, I never quit my grooming rituals until they border on self-harm. I managed to gouge my face in various places 'winning' battles against clogged pores and hormonal acne. Last night, while crying to my husband about my self-sabotage and my shame over my indelicate treatment towards someone he holds most precious, he says to me sweetly, 'But you do such good make-up.' I laugh through my tears at his confidence in my ability to get through this challenge. He hugged my fat, naked body, and I reminded myself that just because I'm not my type, doesn't mean no one else sees my beauty. By the way, I think we got some great shots." That, what a beautiful, beautiful, uh, human snapshot of somebody's struggle. And (laughs), the phrase "I'm not my type." That needs to be … a T-shirt. "I'm not my type." That might describe 99 percent of the self-loathing on Earth.

[00:06:41] Today's episode is sponsored by Spotify. It's a quick and easy way to stick to your New Year's Resolutions. Start listening to podcasts on Spotify, with more than 150,000 of them, including many of the world's most popular self-improvement shows. You can learn how to balance a budget, balance your diet, even how to feel balanced while meditating, even if you're also obsessing over when the cat was last fed. All podcasts on Spotify are free, and you can even download episodes for those times when you’ve gone off the grid. You know, to get all that new-found balance into your life. So, get the year off right and start listening to podcasts on Spotify today.

[00:07:22] This episode is also sponsored by … Policygenius. Getting life insurance is one of the more intimidating parts of becoming a full-fledged adult. So, Policygenius created a web site that makes it easy to compare quotes from top insurers to find the coverage you need at a price you can afford. From there, you can apply online and the advisors at Policygenius will handle all the red tape. They'll even negotiate your rate with the insurance company. It's all a part of their best price guarantee. And whether you're shopping for disability insurance to protect your income, homeowner's insurance or auto insurance, Policygenius can help you get covered fast. And, uh, you should check out their web site. If you're interested, it's really intuitive, really easy to use, and uh, I, I had no problems with it. Navigated it beautifully. So, if you’ve, uh, been intimidated or frustrated by insurance in the past, try starting your search at policygenius.com. In minutes, you can compare quotes and apply. You can do the whole thing on your phone right now. I do recommend though that you pull over. Policygenius: the easy way to compare and buy life insurance.

[00:08:36] All right. And, um … one last little moment before we get to the survey with Nora. The survey? (Laughs) I cannot, I'm starting to read this survey while I'm saying that (laughs) … to the, uh, interview with Nora. I think of it more as a conversation, but I'm the worst multi-tasker. I can't hold a conversation with somebody while I'm turning off on an exit on the freeway.

[00:09:07] This is a happy moment filled out by "Collette." And she writes, "A few months ago, my girlfriend (male-to-female) realized that she is trans and started to transition. And it's been helping me accept and love the part of me that is attracted to women. I was raised in homophobic, conservative environment and have spent most of my life suppressing my attraction to women. I think that we were meant to find each other.”

Intro

[00:10:32] Paul: I'm so excited to, uh, have her back. She is the host of Terrible, Thanks for Asking. Please welcome to the stage Nora McInerney! (Audience applauds)

Nora: Hi!

Paul: And she is concussed. She, uh, she, you stood up too fast—

Nora: Look. Don’t (unintelligible) on my lines. I, uh, (both laugh) … Let me set the scene for you. It’s a Wednesday morning, I'm knocking on our teenager's floor. Then, I'm on the ground. There's been an explosion. I look at my husband. I say, "Something bad happened." He says, "Yeah. You fucking fell! What's going on?" I was like, "What is going on?" Look, what the ER doctor told me is, "You're tall. You have low potassium. And after a CT scan, we realize you stood up too fast. So, will you please leave? There's nothing wrong with you other than, uh, you're—you’ve reached an age where you can no longer make quick movements (audience laughs). Okay? It's dangerous." And that was my Wednesday (audience laughs), which brings us to today where I'm wearing a hat indoors. Okay? Cuz my head hurts, and it felt like it kept, it's keeping everything together. There's nothing actually broken, but it feels like this hat is doing something very necessary. Plus, I've, I've never really worn it. Was that the question?

Paul: It works! It works. No. Yeah, that, uh—

Nora: I also brought a notebook, in case I forgot—

Paul: And, are you gonna go do some detective work after this?

Nora: Hopefully.

Paul: Yes.

Nora: Hopefully. We got a babysitter; who knows? Yeah.

Paul: Please says hi to McGruff for me.

Nora: Well, I'll give him your best.

Paul: Yes. It does look nice on you. So, we had Nora on about, uh, I dunno, six months ago. And, we talked all about your life and all of the stuff that you’ve been through. And so, I thought, "Well, if I have her back, what, what would be fun to do?" And I thought, we haven’t done fears and loves in, in a while. And I thought, "Nora would be great at that, cuz she's passionate and filled with fear and (audience laughs) I can relate to that. So she will have things that she loves and things that she's afraid of. And I though, you know what, it might be fun, too, to get some fears and loves from audience members, to, uh, to get you guys involved as well, if, uh, if you feel like it. And then we can make fun of you, which would be fantastic, is get you to be vulnerable, and then we step on your spirit (audience laughs).

Nora: Which is what this show's about at its core.

Paul: That's how we all got here, is we expressed joy as children and then that was snuffed out (audience laughs). And here we are with no life in our eyes (audience laughs).

Nora: Wearing hats indoors.

Paul: Wearing hats indoors. So let's, let's do a couple of fears and loves. Let’s just do a couple of fears first. I like to save the loves for, for last cuz they're, uh, they're so sweet.

Nora: Okay. Can I go first?

Paul: Yes!

Nora: A puncture wound, even just the way it's, right, the way it's phrased. Like just a punc-, like just a (makes clicking sound) (audience laughs), like a, just a puncture wound, witnessing one, having one, giving another person one (audience laughs). Just it's, just all, it just seems terrible.

Paul: That is. Yeah. Even though, even, yeah. The sound of the word puncture—

Nora: Puncture.

Paul: Yeah, it sounds like—

Nora: Wound.

Paul: —air escaping, just from the word.

Nora: Yeah, it's not gonna be, it's not gonna be a quick trip to the ER.

Paul: Yeah.

Nora: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah, I also think of, too, when I hear puncture wound, I always think of a collapse. I always imagine it going into a lung. And the lung collapsing. Or I picture, like a broken rib is what punctures the lung (audience laughs).

Nora: Right? There's a lot of ways for it to go very badly.

Paul: Yeah.

Nora: Yeah.

Paul: And then I cum. But (audience laughs) … That is my so go-to standard joke, that if you come back for one more show, you will not even laugh at all (audience laughs). You will—And I know there are many of you that didn’t. But (both laugh) … that's insecure little Paul (both laugh), afraid of being, uh, serious for a second in front of people.

Nora: Oh, yeah. Say it.

Paul: Give me another fear.

Nora: I mean, I'm also like deeply insecure. So, I would say that my other fear is just that like I don't deserve anything good to happen EVER. And then not only that, but then it will be like evident to other people. And then … So once they know, then they’ll tell me, so I won't even be able to pretend like I don’t already know, even though I would be like, "Yeah, I know. I don’t, obviously, I don’t deserve to be—" right? Yeah. Not worth it, and then they would maybe just … I dunno, like take out a billboard. It's like, you don't deserve it (audience laughs). I'd, I'd pass it every day. I work from home; why would I see a billboard (audience laughs)? It would, it would be right outside my house! Yeah, who knows? So, yeah, just like that—

Paul: But, they wouldn’t put your face on the billboard because you don’t deserve to have your face on anything.

Nora: No.

Paul: So, you get out of, that's a good. That's a catch-22 in your favor.

Nora: Right. And then I would be like, "Why would someone make this billboard about me?" And then everyone would be like, "(Sigh) You're such a narcissist. (Audience laughs) So (laughs), of course you'd think this billboard's about you?" I'm like, "It says like my first and last name—" There's a lot of Nora Mc—There's three, Nora McInerneys. I've looked it up.

Paul: I relate to that. I have a fear that anything good that I imagine for myself in the future is deluded and will actually be the opposite of what reality will be. And I will come crashing down, and not only suffer but feel stupid.

Nora: Oh, yes. Especially if you ever told anybody about that aspiration or hope. Or even like acknowledge that small flicker inside of you in any way. God forbid you stoke it, then you'll have to be, feel extra dumb.

Paul: Yes.

Nora: Alone. Which is where you would end up … for having a hope (audience laughs).

Paul: This is why we're friends (audience laughs). This is what a friendship is built on. Irrational fear and narcissism (both laugh). Let’s take one from the audience. Raise your, raise your hand if you have, uh, a fear or love that you would, that you would like to share. You know what? Think about it, and then we'll come back to you—

Nora: We'll circle back.

Paul: —in like 30 seconds. Hold on. We got a, we got a, uh, hand right here. Let, let me give you the microphone.

Audience member: So, similar to what Nora said, I fear that whenever I … expect or think that anything good is gonna happen to me, that that cancels out the possibility of it happening. That like, okay, because I'm thinking about it, then it's not gonna happen. It, it kind of manifests the, you know, the failure or whatever.

Nora: Yeah. You talking about a classic jinx.

Paul: Right. (Audience laughs) So …

Nora: Yeah, and, uh, I believe in 'em. I don't blame you. I wouldn’t tell anyone anything that you're thinking about doing or achieving, (audience laughs) cuz …

Paul: What she said.

Nora: Truly. Yeah.

Paul: It's almost like there's a really petty god between you and the universe that's like, "Oh this guy thinks this is gonna happen? That's pretty uppity!" (Audience laughs)

Nora: Yes. Someone asked what I'm doing for the weekend. I'm like, "No-, what? Hmm? No. Nothing. Probably nothing."

Paul: Give me another one.

Nora: Don't worry, I wrote 'em down. I am concussed (laughs). Actually, I can tell you another one. They're all like latterly, physical fears. Maybe because I heard my head smashing onto the hard wood. And that was like, head injuries, always a fear. Like, you know how, um, YouTube exists now? And so, you can look up anything, which again, if you have children, remember that, cuz I, apparently they can look up some REALLY, things that they should have … I used to have to ask my parents and be like, "Wait, what's a blow job?" They don’t have to do that, cuz they can look it up on YouTube! They should not be able to do that. They should have to ask you, awkwardly, and then hear the answer in, in a car and then be horrified, because they thought it was (audience laughs), they thought it was something else. Personal experience of mine. So, um (audience laughs) … So I've already like heard my own head hit, um, the ground. But I am EXTREMELY afraid of like, um, like my, my fingers breaking. Like, snapping a finger. Like our hands and feet are so stupidly fragile. They're so, like a toe, you just (makes breaking sound), break that right off. It's so … and, and you don’t even realize it until something happens. Like you shut your child's hand in a car door or something. And you're like, "OH MY GOD!" It's so like, it can just cu-. Yeah, I did it (audience laughs). And my parents did it me. And they were like, "Shake it off." And, so I'm afraid of that. I have a lot of physical fears, obviously—

Paul: I broke, I broke my big toe one time, running barefoot in grass. And it caught before the rest of my foot came forward. And I just heard a pop. And it hurt for like a month, but I didn’t wanna go, uh, to the, to the hospital. And, now it looks like there's a little Mount Rushmore on the knuckle of my big toe. It's so disgusting.

Nora: But, you don’t wanna go to the hospital and be like, "My toe hurts (laughs)."

Paul: I dunno. I think I had drinking to do. I was like 20, so, you know—

Nora: Yeah. Yeah, There's a lot of reasons to not to go to a hospital when you're 20. So, um, I'm also so afraid of walking up to somebody who I've, who I know, kay. This could be a-, like, like, if I saw you on the street, and I was like, "Oh, that's Paul," I would just be like, "Hey, buddy." Cuz I'd be so afraid that if I said Paul, your name would no longer be Paul (audience laughs)—

Paul: Right.

Nora: It would be something else. And then I … and I would have said it out loud, confidently. And then you would know that I am the worst.

Paul: You did that, she doesn’t care about me.

Nora: Right. Right. And she, and how long has she thought that my name is Paul? Really? She's telling other people my name is Paul? Even the more I say your name, I'm less convinced that it is Paul. (Audience laughs)

Paul: Yes.

Nora: So …

Paul: It's like, you ever do that with words, where you're like, "The. Does that look right? Did I misspell that? That, that doesn't look right."

Nora: It can't be right.

Paul: A friend of mine was at a, a coffee place, and he comes to this coffee place every day, wears the same hat. He's got kind of a shaved head, and he's always working on his, his thing, on his laptop. And so, I snuck up behind him, and I, and I, and I whispered in his ear, "I'm gonna be honest: we're all sick of your bullshit, so why don't you hit the road?" (Audience laughs) Yeah, wasn’t him. (Audience laughs) Yeah. Yeah. But it took, like, the guy looking at me for a second, he looked so much like my friend. And I went, "OH MY GOD! I'm so sorry! I thought (laughs), I thought you were …" So … yeah, that does happen. That does happen. But—

Nora: Now you can't go back there.

Paul: Oh, no. I go back there. (Audience laughs) Yes, yes.

Nora: Cuz he just knows … he knows that somebody is aware. Also, that probably just triggered like his greatest fear, which is that everybody knows about his bullshit, and they're sick of it, to the point where a stranger would whisper it in his ear (audience laughs), while he's writing something that will never see the light of day because he's so insecure. So …

Nora: I don't deserve coffee.

Nora: Yeah (laughs).

Paul: Oh my god—

Nora: And this, this bearded man knows that. Okay. Oh. Gosh, okay this one. I mean, I felt this like driving over here. I'm super afraid that anytime I do ANYTHING, like any sort of event or even like invite people to my house—I've never had a birthday party for this reason—that no one will show up. Like no one! I'm just convinced, like that, that, it's just right around the corner, the day where I go somewhere and they're like, "So no one came (laughs). So no one's here. We know you rented out the restaurant, but no one is here to celebrate with you, so, um … yeah."

Paul: I have experienced that.

Nora: OH GOD!

Paul: Not on that level, but like, a get-together, you know, I told maybe a dozen people three days beforehand. And everybody backed out. And I just went … "God, my feelings are really hurt, but I'm also incredibly relieved (audience laughs)." And every person I told that to totally understood that (audience laughs). That's it. It's like you want to know that you're loved, but you wanna be left alone.

Nora: Hmm. Yeah.

Paul: How can we solve that problem?

Nora: I don't know. I mean that's kind of like the plight of the middle child; that’s what I am. It's like, you know, I wanna be invited to everything, but I also don't want to be obligated to go to anything. And then I'll, so I don't wanna go.

Paul: I think that's kind of what Facebook is.

Nora: Yeah (laughs).

Paul: Is it's like your way of going, "Hey. Anybody here love me? No? Okay. Just checking in. (Audience laughs) Gonna go back to bed and hate myself." (Audience laughs)

Nora: Gonna go back to Twitter. Worse (laughs). I where I just know people hate me. It's cool.

Paul: Do you, do you get haters?

Nora: So I have like a filter where I only get messages from like some people now, so that helps.

Paul: Okay. But what were, what were people saying? You don't seem like the type of person that … would draw out—

Nora: I mean, I'm a woman, so (laughs)—

Paul: Women are treated GREAT in this country! (Audience laughs) I don't—

Nora: And especially on Twitter, it's like people are like, "You're beautiful." "I love your opinions." "Talk more." (Audience laughs)

Paul: Oh yes! Yes! Oh my god! You're loved on the Supreme Court. You're loved in the Oval Office. You're loved in tech—

Nora: Yeah. Yeah. Can’t get enough of us. Yeah, so, uh—

Paul: You're loved (laughs).

Nora: So, yeah, I tell ya. Do we need a new fear?

Paul: I dunno—

Nora: I can't remember if I told you this last time, cuz it's very odd and it's a childhood fear. But if I get into it, I definitely have the same fear, which is that … Okay, so imagine when the world ends. And, like everything is nothing, um, and then, but you are, like we're all made of (laughs)—Look, I was, I was an English major; I don't know if this true. Are you all made of molecules? Let's say we are. And then I (audience laughs), like my molecules would like float away from the molecules that, of the people I love. And so, I would be really alone, even though I wouldn’t even exist. But like my little bits just pshhhh! And then my mom might be way over there. And the universe keeps expanding. I keep getting further away—

Paul: Oh my god—

Nora: —from all of the molecules of the people that I loved.

Paul: Oh my god.

Nora: So that's, that's what I used to think about as a child (laughs).

Paul: That's … that is shit science in every (audience laughs) … every type of the … the way—

Nora: The Catholic school system failed me in a lot, in a lot of ways.

Paul: Yes. They, they, they pounded you with fear and then gave you no sense of what the science of it is.

Nora: No. There are, a molecule maybe. I don't know (laughs).

Paul: Oh my god. That is—

Nora: Could be.

Paul: I have a fear that, when I die, I'm going to be reincarnated, like as a … like a prostitute in Calcutta (audience laughs) … you know?

Nora: Yeah, (unintelligible) that's …

Paul: Yeah. Yeah. And you're just like, you gotta bathe in a river with turds, you know. It's the feel-good show (audience laughs). But I do. I go to that place in my head. And I suppose that kind of a version of I don’t deserve anything good.

Nora: Yeah. Or like, I mean, what if you were a bug, which would be almost worse, you know. Like you're just a bug. And he hit a windshield. But then, I guess you could get—

Paul: That would be the way to go.

Nora: —reincarnated (laughs) faster. That's true. Not a bad way to go. Yeah, but just sometime I see like flies that are just like buzzing around our house. I'm like … depressed for them. I'm like, "What's the point? Like you're not gonna, you're not gonna get out to … it's a pane of glass, idiot." Just like (sound of fly hitting pane of glass multiple times). Just like trying so hard. I'm like, "I'll do my best to put you out of your misery (laughs)." And I'm like, "Wonder what it's coming back as. I dunno."

Paul: Yes. Do they know, sometimes, when we're trying to pick them up to put them outside, that' we're trying to save their lives? Because—

Nora: You do that?!

Paul: —after like three—I, yeah, sometimes I do. And, if after three times, they still try to get out of my hand, I just step on them. And I'm like, "I wish I could have somehow conveyed to you that I'm working with you (audience laughs). But …"

Nora: Well, I run around my house like, "You son of a bitch! Get out of my kitchen!" Like—

Paul: I mean, if it's like scary and hairy, you know, uh, I'll … hairy? I don't know if I've ever had something hairy, but—

Nora: I think spiders.

Paul: Yeah.

Nora: Yeah.

Paul: Spiders I don't pick up. Spiders I kill. But if it looks like, you know, something that flies or –

Nora: Oh yeah, like a moth I would, I would … A fly—

Paul: Yes, moths I do.

Nora: A moth, like obviously has like a soul or personality. (Audience laughs) It flies like … you know. A moth has a face to scare you on its wings, so … it worked on me—

Paul: They have a face on their wings?

Nora: Yeah. That's, it scares away predators, and also me. (Laughs). So—

Paul: Oh my god. What were we talking about right before that, cuz I had something useless to add—

Nora: We were talking about death. We were talking about molecules—

Paul: Oh, I know. About reincarnation. I had this, I was trying to think. Well, how would reincarnation work scientifically? And so I thought, "Well, what probably happens is, whoever … when somebody dies, their spirit leaves. And then what, whoever is the closest … entity being conceived at that moment, it goes into that." And I thought, "Well, if rich people find that out (Nora laughs), what they're gonna start doing is fucking near really great old people dying (audience laughs)." And I thought, "That would—"

Nora: It's gonna become a cottage industry.

Paul: (Laughs) That would be, you know, like as, you know, Jonas Salk is dying. And there's just a ring of people that have paid a million dollars to fuck around him, in the hope that his soul goes into their child.

Nora: It's gonna be like an, it's gonna be like an add-on fertility treatment. Like who would, who would you like, what famous great person would you like to reincarnate into yourself?

Paul: Who would I like? Who would you like?

Nora: No, I'm being a, I'm being a doctor trying to upsell you like 80,000 dollars for, for a good soul.

Paul: Oh, I see. Yeah.

Nora: Okay. Here's another fear of mine that is very rational and mundane. But, have you ever been to an estate sale?

Paul: Yes.

Nora: Okay. When you're going through an estate sale, like sometimes you're like, "Wow, nice! Nice." And then there's always like the drawers that you're like, "Ugh, god! Ugh, ugh," like, "She thought she needed this many like plastic colanders?" Just so, it's such a bummer. I’m afraid that, when I die, people will go to my estate sale and be like, "Oh my god. What the fuck is this?!" (Audience laughs)

Paul: Yeah. "Where, where did it go wrong for her?"

Nora: Yeah. "I'll give you a quarter to burn all this. I'll pay you to, I'll pay you to donate it somewhere. It's BAD! This is bad stuff." So, I want to have the kind of estate sale where people like line up, and then they're just like so amped about what they got. And then, like I don't, I don’t even know what the point of that is, because I won't be there to see it, but I will in a way.

Paul: You will.

Nora: Cuz I'm gonna be living through my belongings—

Paul: Right. And you'll—

Nora: —which is what told myself.

Paul: —you'll be floating away as your family goes the other way. (Audience laughs)

Nora: Yeah, Yes. My molecules will be all around my, in, in my things. Yes. Yeah.

Paul: And then, for those of you who have never been to an estate sale, it's a garage sale for the pretentious. (Audience laughs)

Nora: (Laughs)

Paul: I mean, isn't that what it is?

Nora: Well, I mean, they sell just like EVERYTHING, you know? And then … so, I mean, yeah, yeah—

Paul: Yeah, when someone dies, it's called an estate sale—

Nora: It does sound better than—

Paul: A funeral sale.

Nora: Yeah. Yeah. Dead people's stuff. And every time I go to one, I cry. And so, I'm not—

Paul: Do you?!

Nora: —super—yeah. I just get like, I just get … (sighs) it, it's usually when I get to that, you know, the area where they're like, "And also this stuff." I'm like, "God, someone bought all these ugly Christmas tchotchkes, thinking like … "These are wonderful." They're like, "Obviously, my children want these." And they're like, "Get, get, it's all gotta go! We don’t want it! We don’t want any of this shit!" Like, I'm like, "Ah, you know what? Your dad's shoes—" Like, I have this, uh, we just got rid of it, because it was rotting and falling apart. But I got this tiny, um, uh, picnic table. And—at an estate sale—and it also there was, um, uh, it was clearly made by hand, with love, in the 60s. And, um, there was a matching playhouse. And the, the, the children, who are now like in their late 50s, early 60s, were like, "Oh yeah, our dad made it." And I'm like, "Your dad made this?"

Paul: And you're selling that?

Nora: "Your dad, your tiny bodies sat and ate dinner at this tiny (audience laughs), at this tiny picnic table and you're selling it?" And they were like, "We will give it to you if you fucking leave." (Audience laughs) And they, like I was like bawling. I was like, "Oh, man, your dad, like with his loving hands, just … built this little replica of your family house for you to play in. And then, and like you are just giving, like you don't have a grandchild?" They were just like, "Get the fuck out of here!" (Audience laughs) And they put it in my car for me. And, um, and for, for free. So I got it for free by being basically … emotionally unstable (audience laughs) at THEIR estate sale. I was like, "I'm so sorry your dad's dead. I just can't imagine like how you feel right now. But also my dad's dead." And they were like (possible physical gesture) (audience laughs) … "Killing the vibe at this estate sale. Ma'am, that's what you're doing, okay? All these other people are just happy to get records for a quarter. Could you go?" Yeah.

Paul: You’ve created the need for a garage sale therapist to be hanging around.

Nora: I think, I think so. I think, you know, and it should be me. Obvious (laughs). That's what I'm gonna moonlight as.

Paul: Let's, uh, let's see if there's an audience member that has come up with a, uh, a fear yet. And what's your name? Let me, let me give you the mic.

Anthony: Thank you. My name's Anthony, and I'm afraid that everything that I've learned during the course of my mental illness recovery just looks like recovery from the outside, but in fact it's just made the demon of my mental illness that much harder to see.

Paul: Oh my god, that's a good one. That is so good, and fuck you for planting that in my head! (Audience laughs) That's … that's brilliant and sad, which is a hard combination to, to collect. Do you, do you relate to that one at all?

Nora: Do you want this man removed? (Audience laughs)

Paul: (Laughs)

Nora: Does he upset you?

Paul: (Laughs)

Nora: Yeah. I've, all self-awareness feels like that to me. I'm like, "Woah, woah, woah. Am I just like tricking myself now into thinking that I'm something that I'm not?" I'm very into all kinds of like personality tests, too. Like, in addition to like therapy and Lexapro, I'm like, "You know what I should take? A half-hour test to tell me about like the bad things about my personality (laughs) …" which is what I did (laughs).

Paul: Cuz that's what you need, is more rumination and low self-esteem. That's the road out—

Nora: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah! Yes, yes, yes, yes. That is. Yeah, yeah, yep. And I'm like, I'm an INFJ. I'm a 2. I'm a 2 with a 3 wing. And then I'm an unhealthy—I just got into the Enneagram. I can hear some yesses out there (audience laughs). It's a lot. And then I brought it up on Instagram, and people were like, "Actually, if you're—" I'm like, "Look! I'm trying to get into a new thing … and you're really ruining it for me by telling me I didn’t do it right," which is also one of my biggest fears (laughs). (Audience laughs) Like I can't ever (laughs), I can't even talk shit about myself right (laughs). It's like (laughs) …

Paul: The fear of, of self-delusion, I think, is one of the, the most common ones—

Nora: Ooh, yeah!

Paul: —and that things are gonna get worse. I mean, if you remove those two things that were wrong in everything we think or do, and that things are becoming increasingly worse … doesn't that kill about 70 percent of the fears that we have?

Nora: Except spiders, yes.

Paul: Spiders and puncture wounds.

Nora: Yes. Punc-, yes! Nothing can cure puncture wounds (laughs), as far as I know, again, as an English major. But, uh, as far as I know, that can't be cured. There's no, there's no cure for that.

Paul: Give me another fear.

Nora: You inadvertently, uh, re-upped this one for me. Do you follow, um, mentalpod on, on Instagram, anyone? You should, if you … love, um, like seeing yourself, like reflected back to you (laughs). And then be like, "Urgh, don't tap it." Fine. So, I think, the one that I saw today was, um, "Depression. Pretty sure I'm just making it up to be lazy (laughs)." (Audience laughs) I was like, "Uggggh!" Yeah.

Paul: And I wanna give a shout-out to Brooke, who puts those together. She goes through the surveys, and, uh, and the podcast , and she pulls quotes, uh, either from the podcast or, or surveys and puts those together. She does such a great job, and it helps so much.

Nora: Yeah. I'm like maybe this is just an excuse for me not to do the thing I was supposed to do. Maybe it is all just self-delusion. And maybe I made it all up. Yeah. Cuz I'm a middle child.

Paul: You gotta watch a documentary about something depressing, so you can feel better about yourself. That’s the easiest way to pull yourself up by your bootstraps (audience laughs), is just lower everybody else. (Audience laughs)

Nora: Yeah. I also love when people are like, "I just think maybe you can benefit from some perspective." I'm like, "Oh, yeah?" Like (laughs), what is like being in something was your perspective? Like, what if, like that's also a perspective?

Paul: Like being what?

Nora: Like being, like being in your own feelings is a perspective. Being close to something is perspective. Like, looking back, also perspective. But … like I just find that sooo upsetting and, um, uh, anger-making when people are like, "I just think like maybe you could use some perspective." I'm like, "Oh, yeah. As long as you point out that other people have it worse than me, then I'll feel better (laughs)."

Paul: Cuz isn't that what we really want, more than the truth, is we just wanna know we're not the worst?

Nora: Yeah.

Paul: That, we would LOVE to be the best, but we know that's unattainable. So it's like, "Okay. Then, let's start at the bottom, and let's just find ways that's I'm not on the bottom. Oh, I hate that person. I've went up a notch. Hate that person; went up a notch. Let's watch the Kardashians. Oh, I'm up five notches." (Audience laughs)

Nora: Let's go on, let's go on Facebook. Let's look up everybody who was ever once rude to us in seventh through … tenth grade. Let's say 12th.

Paul: Also known as … the body of the class.

Nora: Yeah (laughs). Yeah, everybody. Or, I mean, I think it's like in, you know, high school, like when you, you wouldn’t really know how to feel about like the grade you got on a paper, until like you looked around and were like … "Well. I gotta C, so I can feel pretty good about this, about this B." Like, yeah.

Paul: Do we have any other fears from the audience? We got a guy here. What's your name?

Kyle: Kyle.

Paul: Kyle, what's your fear?

Kyle: My fear is of being uninteresting. And, especially in social contexts, like with a, with groups of friends hanging out and that kind of thing. I guess it comes down to wanting to tell them like, "Hey, you all are awesome. Like, this is really col hanging out with you." And they respond, "Yeah, thanks. But you're kind of awful. Like why are you here (laughs)? (Audience laughs) We don't, we don't like you or like being around you?"

Nora: (Laughs)

Paul: That was a terrible one, Kyle. (Audience laughs) How, how do I pass that joke up? How could I, you put that on a tee for me! (Audience laughs)

Nora: Does anyone have an interesting fear to share? Anyone? (Audience laughs)

Paul: That, that is such a good one though, because … I think we, I dunno, maybe I should just speak for, uh, my lover Kyle and myself. But (audience laughs), um, that feeling that people are just kind of amusing us. That they don't … really appreciate us the way they appreciate other people. And then, sometimes that'll be consu-, uh, uh, confirmed on Facebook, when you see everybody talking about the great that they were at. And you're like, "I didn’t know there was that party going on." And, and that's called getting Facefucked (audience laughs) when you … yes. But part of you is glad that you didn't have to go out on Friday night. (Audience laughs)

Nora: I mean, if you would have gotten invited, you definitely would have said yes, and then not gone (laughs).

Paul: EXACTLY! Cuz then you get credit for saying, "I like you, but—"

Nora: Not enough to show up—

Paul: —not that much—

Nora: Yeah (laughs). Not, I'm not gonna leave my house! Cuz it's not … come on. Slow down (laughs).

Paul: And is a get-together ever … worse in reality than it is to your brain an hour before you go to go do that thing?

Nora: I mean, maybe if it's like a, a, a poorly-attended funeral (laughs).

Paul: With, with dancing.

Nora: Yeah. Yeah. That's about it. Yeah.

Paul: Just slow dancing. (Sings) "I've had the time of my life—"

Nora: I'm honestly gonna write down, "At my funeral, make sure there's like mandatory slow-dancing (laughs)." (Audience laughs)

Paul: I went to, uh, pick up, uh, a friend of mine who had been, uh, in the psych ward. And, so I, I went in to pick him up. And they, you know, they let you in and you're at the desk. And people are kind of shuffling around, a la cuckoo's nest. And there's music playing. And my friend and I are just standing there while they're processing his paperwork (laughs). And, over the radio, (sings) "I've had the time of my—" And I just turned to him and I said, "Let's just start slow dancing. (Audience laughs) Let's just see if anybody notices."

Nora: It's like nobody curating that Spotify list. (Audience laughs) They're like … really?! They just like, turned it on. They're like, "You know what? Jan, would you mind putting it on shuffle?" Just like her weekend list. Like, "Who is playing that … at the checkout line at the psych ward (laughs)?"

Paul: At least they didn't play "Crazy." Give me another, another fear.

Nora: One moment.

Paul: Okay. Do we have any questions from the, uh, the audience? Sometimes, uh, um, I know that you guys have questions about, I don’t know, the podcast or … you know …

Nora: My hat.

Paul: Nora, or …

Nora: This hat's from The Gap. It's two years old. Yeah, it's from The Gap—

Paul: 'Kay, we got a, we got a questions.

Audience member: It's for Nora. I was wondering about your podcast. Do you travel to interview the people that you speak to, or, um, do they come to you?

Nora: So, they question is do I travel to interview people. Sometimes, we have. Usually, we do, um, a, like a tape sink. So, somebody will be being recorded where they, and then I'll be recorded where I am. And then they put the two tapes together. Or they'll just go to a studio in their city, and we'll just call each other, which I thought would be, at—the first season, we did a lot of travel, cuz I was like, "You have to look someone in the eye while you're, you know, asking them about this terrible trauma." And, honestly, I think sometimes it's beneficial for somebody to sit quietly in like a dark studio that they have not been to before. Like be out of their element and not have to like perform for a stranger, not have to like look at me, and just be in the moment. Like you're wearing headphones, so, um, yeah, yeah, it's like kind of like confessional in that way. And, um—

Paul: If, out of the corner of your eye, there was a disinterst-, disinterested engineer in confession—

Nora: Yeah. Exactly. Or, um, does anyone here still talk on the phone? I love the phone. Like do you remember in like … do you remember like the first time you fell in love and you would like, lay one the phone and like talk all night? And you would just be like, it, like time would pass you and you'd just be saying all this stuff. And you're like, "What am I doing?" That's what it's like to interview somebody like remotely.

Paul: And you'd wrap the cord around your finger.

Nora: Yeah!

Paul: Get all the way to the end of your finger, and then you'd … back it out—

Nora: The headphones come with that curly wire. And I find myself doing that, too.

Paul: Yes. That's a great one.

Nora: So, now I've, I've grown to like interviewing somebody remotely. Yeah.

Paul: Give me another fear.

Nora: Okay. I'm, I think I had mentioned this before, but like everybody is like afraid of like tooth stuff. But I'm afraid, not only of like breaking like a tooth and like, but just the feeling of FEELING that broken tooth then with my tongue, like I just, that would be too much for me. That's just, that's, I can't handle that. Nor could I handle any of my children breaking their teeth in front of me. Like it's just, they fall all the time, and I'm like, 'Just don't be your teeth. Just don’t be your teeth." And then they get up, and I'm like, "You're good—"

Paul: Oh my god.

Nora: "—Keep going." Yeah. I just can't handle tooth stuff at all. Even when they wiggle their teeth, I'm like, "Get out." So disgusting. It's so disgusting. You're, you're losing bones. And then another bone will descend from your skull to fill that hole. It's, people are so weird. Human bodies are so weird.

Paul: My friend, Sara, was, uh, exercising one morning. And she was on the treadmill, and she hadn't had enough to eat, and she lost her balance and knocked all of her front teeth out. And then, had … they didn't bring an ambulance or anything in. So she had to go like back out front, past the corner, holding her teeth. And she, I didn't, you couldn’t even tell, looking at her now, that, uh … cuz her mouth's sewn shut. BUT (audience laughs) …

Nora: (Laughs) Cuz she just doesn’t smile.

Paul: Yes. But—oh I heard that. I was like, that was one of the worst things I've … Playing hockey I've seen, I've seen guys lose … One guy I was playing, and he got hit in the mouth with the puck, and lost all his teeth. And one of them, he swallowed. That the nastiest?

Nora: It’s like, we're just so vulnerable in such weird ways. Like we have teeth, that's so great. We can eat. And they can just fall out?! It's like, we have fingers; they're very delicate. Like, we have a hu-, a billion bones in our feet. They just snap. It's terrible. Someone steps on your foot, it's like the worst pain in the world. Like we are built so stupidly. It's like poor design all, all around.

Paul: Have you ever pulled a filling out?

Nora: Oh, no. I don't have any fillings (laughs).

Paul: Oh, it's the worst. The worst. And it's always something stupid, like a gummy bear—

Nora: Yeah. That sounds terrible.

Paul: I was at a Paul Simon concert, and I was eating a gummy bear. And I was like, "Why is it crunchy? Oh MOTHERFUCKER!!!" (Audience laughs) It was like (laughs) … I'm in the dark, like trying to find the filling, put it in my pocket. "Oh, I hate this song!"

Nora: Okay. A couple weeks ago, I had my first banana split. It was a thrill. I was like, "These are amazing! I want one every day for breakfast." It's so good. Might have helped, would not have had low potassium, maybe wouldn’t have a head injury right now.

Paul: But you might have slipped on the banana.

Nora: Exactly. Actually, one time I was running and there was a banana peel that I did slip on. And, I was—

Paul: What were you in, a cartoon?!

Nora: —going out for a run. That's what—I was like, "What?" And a man stopped his bike and was like, "What the fuck?! That happened?" And I was like, "Yeah! And I'm on the ground right now cuz I slipped on a banana peel. Please leave. Leave me on the side of the road. Don’t make this a thing. Now I'm gonna tell a bunch of people about it." However—

Paul: Did smoke come out of his ears when he found that out?

Nora: Ah-ooo-ah! Yeah (laughs). It was … Yeah. He was like (makes sound). All kinds of sound effects I can do. So, I was eating a banana split. And then it was crunchy. And I was like, "What is like—Hmm, maybe it's just a little freezer burned. It was a kind of a divey place, but I don't wanna be a snob, like I eat freezer burned ice cream all the time. I'm not too good for it." It was glass.

Paul: OH!

Nora: And I felt so bad telling the guy.

Paul: Oh, you are co-dependent.

Nora: I was like, I, like I don't know what to say—

Paul: When you apologize for somebody making you swallow glass, you need to bump up your therapy. (Audience laughs)

Nora: I was like, "I don’t wanna make you feel bad. Just like there's glass. And also my mouth is bleeding." And, um … And also, then I got very paranoid cuz I think I'd seen an old-timey movie, where like a woman like ground up glass and put it in her husband's food and then he died. And my friend, Hannah, was like, "I think that was over a course a time. I don't think it was like one bite of glass." And I was,

Can you Google it?! My phone's dead (laughs). I just ate some glass. Am I going to die? No, sir, I'll pay for it. Like it's (laughs) … like don't, don't take it off the bill. I enjoyed 90 percent of it. (Audience laughs) It's was just that one bite that had glass in it. I wouldn’t worry about it. I'll give you a five-star review on Yelp." So, now I'm afraid of glass in my food (laughs).

Paul: Do you know how many people would have tried to get rich off that situation?

Nora: Now that you mention it, shit (laughs). Now that you mention it, it was … I am deeply, I've internal bleeding, and (laughs) … and you're all my witnesses (laughs). This was …

Paul: I think it caused the fainting.

Nora: Deeply. It might have. 'Kay? Head injury, (unintelligible). This is like me, doing a little adding machine in my head, like … rich! Cha-ching! Bag of money!

Paul: Glass! That's so fucked up.

Nora: Yeah, glass.

Paul: I was working at a restaurant one time, and somebody returned food (laughs) that had a Band-Aid in it (audience groans). (Laughs) It's so fucking sick!

Nora: Yeah. (Audience laughs) I, like Band-Aids, hair, and, uh, like are things that are, are fine when they're on a person's body. And the minute they're off, you're like (makes gagging sounds), like if I saw a person with a Band-Aid, I wouldn’t be like, "Sick! Get away from me!" But the minute it's off …

Paul: I pick hair out, I keep eating. It doesn’t, it doesn’t faze me. It doesn’t faze me at all.

Nora: Same. I, it really doesn’t bo-, most things just don’t bother me. I'm like, I mean we're all disgusting; what does it matter? My kids eat like floor food, you know?

Paul: Well, you serve them on the floor.

Nora: Yes. Yes. So I don't have to do dishes.

Paul: Sure.

Nora: Yeah. (Audience laughs) But, uh—

Paul: And they're only half-human anyway.

Nora: Yeah. Oh my god, babies are so dumb. So, uh, (audience laughs) our toddler is like holding popcorn. And dropped a piece and bent over to pick it up, dumped it all out, stood back up, and was like, "WHAAT?" (Audience laughs) It was like, it was just like, "What are you doing?" And then he just sat down today on the ground at his brother's soccer game and just ate it off the ground. He was like, "Obviously."

Paul: Yeah.

Nora: And I, um, probably should have stopped him (laughs). (Audience laughs)

Paul: No, he's—

Nora: But, I didn't, I didn’t wanna spill my popcorn (laughs)!

Paul: And he's getting fed and cleaning up at the same time.

Nora: Yes. Yes.

Paul: Why would you stop that process?

Nora: He's also just like making good, like Instagram content. What I, what am I gonna … interfere?

Paul: Yes.

Nora: No.

Paul: Any audience members have a fear they wanna share? Have a lady back there. Can, can you come up so I can hand you the microphone? She's just made a face like I shot her. (Audience laughs) What's your name?

Elena: Elena.

Paul: Hi, Elena.

Elena: I am afraid that my boss regrets hiring me.

Nora: OOOOOOOOOOH!

Paul: We've got him here now! I'm glad you said that. (Audience laughs) That is one of the most common things that people share in the surveys, is that they get the success that they had desired, and then they feel like a fraud.

Nora: Oh my god, I wrote that down.

Paul: Yes.

Nora: Yeah (laughs).

Paul: It's like the mean part of your brain will always find a loophole to fuck you.

Nora: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think like … like if you read your reviews or you’re the kind of person who reads like, um, like, um … I'm trying to remember like what they call it in business. Like a 360 review, you know, and there's like all these comments and like … I, I would like skip past like the good ones and be like, "Let's just read the shitty ones."

Paul: Oh, yeah!

Nora: Be like, I'm like, "Yeah. Yeah. Maybe that's true. And also, fuck you! Like (laughs), I know exactly who wrote this, okay? Wait 'til your review, all right? Cuz I'm gonna be so nice (laughs). I'm gonna be so nice to you for no reason."

Paul: Aren't, aren't those the ones that, that usually just bring out the most in us? The one that confirms our worst fear, that we DISAGREE with, but we also kind of agree with.

Nora: Oh, yeah. Like I mean, do you ever read like any sort of negative comment about yourself or your work?

Paul: Uh … YES!

Nora: (Laughs) Okay. I don’t anymore, because now my mother-in-law does that for me. And, uh, like will respond … like on Amazon book reviews, and be like, "You're wrong." (All laugh). I'm like, "I love you. I love you, Kim. You're wrong, this is a great book. Your opinion's wrong." Like, "That's right, Kim. It is. Thank you." Yeah. Like I—

Paul: Is it your book or somebody else's?

Nora: Oh, it's my book. She's, she's going deep. She's, she's really, she's a real ride-or-die. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that’s my version of a 360 review now, is Amazon or Twitter or Apple Podcast. Don’t read the comments. Okay? Don’t read your reviews. Don’t read like emails. Just drag 'em all to the trash. (Laughs)

Paul: I got a, I got a one-star review on iTunes. The person said, uh, "I used to love this podcast, but the last episode, the guy's accent was so thick I couldn’t understand what he's saying."

Nora: (Laughs)

Paul: So you give me, the, the whole podcast a fucking one-star review (audience laughs) …

Nora: (Laughs) One time, somebody gave, um, my book a bad review cuz it arrived late. I'm was like, that's like, your gripe is like with Amazon. Not with like (audience laughs) … I mean … like I didn’t deliver it. I would have been on time. (Audience laughs) But I pride myself on that, punctuality. But, uh, yeah. Yeah. People are the best.

Paul: The reincarnation thing, you should also have the option of … fucking as far away as possible from people like that. I don't want my baby to have that person, that mouth-breather's soul.

Nora: (Laughs) No. I don't want my baby to be the kind of person who like spends his time like going on the internet to be like, "I want this person to know, that I'm just like unhappy with them and like who they are and like what they made. Like bravely putting into the world, I just wanna make sure I just knock 'em down … a peg or two personally." And then, uh, like one person, uh, I'm giving, I always give my trolls so much credit. Okay, so this, I made one joke in the podcast, which people don't like if I make jokes, which is so taxing. So, I made a joke. I was interviewing this guy who works at Princeton. I said, "Huh. Never heard of it." I got (audience laughs) … I got from a man, um, an email, saying, "I can't believe you’ve never heard of Princeton, and you have a podcast." As if the en-, the barrier to starting a podcast is, "Have you heard of Princeton?" (Audience laughs). Then, he left it in a fucking Apple review (laughs). And then he wrote it on Facebook. I'm like, "Sir!—"

Paul: "Have you heard of sarcasm?"

Nora: Right! I'm like, "One, it's called jokes.com/youdontgetit. (Audience laughs) Two, like spent SO MUCH TIME on this. Like, I am so proud of you for going to Princeton. Like, 'So, it was my safety schoo-, exactly.'" (Audience laughs) I went to, I went to the Princeton of Ohio. And, uh, yeah, so, people are the best. Yeah.

Paul: I get, uh, aw—

Nora: But, he's someone's kid. Someone, someone's like he's … you know what, he's wonderful. I'm like, "You know what the truth about your son is? He's the kind of person (laughs) …"

Paul: He's humorless. He's a dullard.

Nora: "He's a humorless dullard, with, uh, access to a keyboard and an internet connection. And he must be stopped. Okay?"

Paul: That, that is the downside to the democracy of the internet.

Nora: (Laughs) It's true.

Paul: I get emails sometimes from, uh, people that are critical of the podcast. And … 90 percent of time, they’re done in a way that is diplomatic and compassionate. And they, you know, say what they like about it. And those I'm … I'm so thankful for cuz they help me do a better job. But sometimes you get them, where the person will then apologize three days later that they were in a manic episode.

Nora: Oooh!

Paul: And the email is nine pages long, and they're exclamation points galore about what I don't get and what I'm wrong about and, uh, after about the fifth one of those that I've gotten, I've now just kind of take it with a grain of salt. You can tell when somebody's just, there's something else at work other than my shittiness. (Audience laughs)

Nora: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I do—Yeah, it's not like I'm like, "I don’t want any feedback." But I don’t. (Audience laughs) Unless it's like a compliment, uh, and then I just won’t believe it, uh, cuz I'm like, "Well …" I'm like, "Hmm, hmm, I'd rather read this comment that says like I'm a piece of shit." And then I'll resent it, but believe it, you know? Take it real, take it really to heart. Also, I love, um, like, uh, when people leave me comments and they’re like … I mean, as a mother, I'm like, "Wait, what?!" (Laughs) Like, that's like, it's like in my job title. Like, "As a mother, Nora …" I'm like, one, have do you even know that I have kids? Like just cuz I talk about 'em all the time? (Audience laughs) Like, (laughs) just cuz like, just cuz the way my body (laughs) looks now? Like, whatever! And, yeah. Like, "As a mother, like you should make a better podcast." Like what is the, as a mother, what? Like, what is the responsibility that I have other than, uh—I mean, my husband raising my kids. I don't … like (all laugh) … like, what are you implying? He makes the dinner.

Paul: That's what nannies who’s names I can't remember are for.

Nora: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

Paul: Give me another fear. And then we'll go to loves.

Nora: Oh, man. Man, oh man—

Paul: While you look for that, let's get one, let's get one more fear—

Nora: Well, then I'm, well I'm, obviously that I'm like a, that I'm fucking up all the kids, like all the time. Like, every single one of them—

Paul: Back there, come on up, so I can hand you the microphone. And, and give us your name.

Sara: I'm Sara.

Paul: Hi, Sara!

Sara: Hello. And I … am afraid of the, uh, garbage disposal eating my hand.

Paul: Oh, good one!

Nora: Oh my god, yeah! (Audience laughs)

Paul: How have we never done that one?! And even when it's off, you think there's gonna be a surge of electricity. Or someone's gonna come running in from the other room and flip it on. (Audience laughs)

Nora: I, I really appreciate that fear, because my husband has that. And I'm always like, "What?!" I'm like, "I can get this fork. Trust me." (Audience laughs) And he's like …

Paul: I have the fear, every time I'm in my woodshop, I'm gonna saw off all my fingers while I'm not paying attention. And if you think that's crazy, there was a kid in my high school who sawed off 99 percent of all four of his fingers, and they were dangling. And he went in—and this was in the, the 80s, early 80s. And, microsurgeons worked for 16 hours and saved all of his fingers. Isn't that incredible?

Nora: That is.

Paul: Incredible. And then he got hit by a car. No, I'm just kidding. (Audience laughs) I'm so uncomfortable with a good, happy ending. I had to, I had to ruin that.

Nora: Ah, that is good. Guys, I know my other fear is just like really boring, which is like—I mean, all your moms are afraid of this. But I'm just like afraid that I'm like ruining our kids all the time. Like everything I do, it's like other indulging them or I'm too hard on them. And then, all the things that I didn't want to do as a parent, um, like all the mistakes I'm making, I'm like, "Oh, yeah. My dad used to yell at me like that. And now I'm doing that, uh, to my five-year-old. But also, like, why is he whining so much?" Like, that's probably why my dad yelled at me, cuz whining is so annoying (laughs).

Paul: I can't, I, I don’t know how parents do it. I honestly don’t. I, uh, that's why I don’t have kids. Let's, let, let's get to some loves. Give me a love of yours. I got mine on my phone. I'm actually, I'm bored with this show. I'm gonna (audience laughs) make some outreach phone calls. "Hello? Yes, I'd love to take a survey? Uh-huh." (Audience laughs)

Nora: I love when I put on make-up, and my five-year-old goes, "Oh! Wow!" Like (all laugh) … Like, I, I intentionally like put my make-up on with the bathroom door closed, just to see the reaction, which is so drastic that a five-year-old goes, "Oh!" (Laughs) Just, "Wow!" I, I love that. I love that.

Paul: Is it like, beautiful wow or rodeo-clown wow? (Audience laughs)

Nora: Honestly, he's desperately in love with me. So he's like, "You are a babe! Who'd have thought?"

Paul: Aww! That's so adorable!

Nora: It's pretty cute. It's pretty cute, yeah.

Paul: Until he's about 12, and then it's … and then it's creepy. (Audience laughs). I love when a puppy gets an old dog to play, and kind of have a second life. My, uh, ex just got a, a puppy. And we still share a dog, Ivy, who's 15. And, Ivy is running around like she's two years old, with Grady. Grady is the puppy. And I just fucking love going over there. And, and Ivy's kind of annoyed by him. But, she also, there's the part of her, I think, that's just so genetically dog, that, that she likes it. And, uh—oh, and he, he will like practically … He's tiny. And she's like a mid-sized dog. And he will like jump up on her, and then sometimes he'll like get his arms over the top of her, and he'll just be like chewing hair off her back. Like the, the hair on her spine. And—

Nora: It feels good to be loved (laughs).

Paul: It's, I just love it. Makes me so happy—

Nora: It feels good to be useful (laughs).

Paul: Yeah. Yeah.

Nora: This is a very Minnesota-specific thing, but I love when it's officially cold enough to feel your seat heaters.

Paul: Oh! That's a great one!

Nora: You know? And just to be like, "Oh, yeah. It's seat-heater season." Yeah.

Paul: I love the first day when it's so cold, that you can feel your nose hair freeze, when you breathe through your nose.

Nora: Does that happen in LA a lot?

Paul: I'm from Chicago. I'm from Chicago. Do you know that? Do you know that? The, the nose-hair freeze—

Audience member: Not in LA!

Paul: I'm from Chicago!

Nora: You can no longer talk about the cold! You’ve rescinded your rights!

Paul: Or when you're exercise—Actually, you don’t even need to be exercising. When you're outside, and it's so cold it hurts to breathe.

Nora: Oh, yeah. Oh, I do love that. I've, I basically love coming in from the cold—I'm trying to brace ourselves—It's about to be winter. Everybody here knows it. There was like rumors of snow on Friday. I, I was like this has gotta be the head injury talking. But, apparently, that was happening in parts of this city, maybe. I dunno. I was re-, just reading like vague tweets. And, I love like when it’s super, super cold, and you walk inside and you're like, "I survived. I took out the trash. I fucking did it. I'm just like a fucking, like, a, a," what are the people, a settler? (Audience laughs) I'm really losing words, guys. You know, like they settled the earth, the earth, earth's … PIONEER is the word I was looking for! (Laughs) Thank you! A settler of the earth. A pioneer. (Audience laughs)

Paul: And there, and there's a level of cold when the snow squeaks. That's when you really know it's cold.

Nora: Yeah. We live here on purpose, everyone. I just want you to remember that, in two months when things are very difficult. We're here for a reason (laughs). It's just affordable property? I dunno.

Paul: You what also … what also feels kind of good when it's really, really cold out, is when you’ve had too much to drink and you walk out of a house into the cold, and it's like you just drank five cups of coffee.

Nora: In college, we just to call that our beer jacket. Be like, "Well, I got my beer jacket on, so I should be okay (laughs)." Which is really like, "Oh, you're so wasted, you're in danger of freezing to death, cuz you can't feel the cold. That was stupid."

Paul: Yes. Also, when you're laughing with your friends, and you're drunk, and you laugh so hard you fall into the snow. And then you just lay there, and the police come. (Audience laughs)

Nora: (Laughs)

Paul: Speaking of heat, uh, when a shower is almost too hot, but you don't adjust it and you get used to it. And it's perfect, and you realize that you are taking the perfectly hot shower. That it couldn’t be any hotter than it is. Cuz you almost had to back out of it.

Nora: Yeah, like it's almost cold.

Paul: Yeah.

Nora: Yeah. And you're definitely losing two layers of skin. So, then you're glow. People are gonna be like, "What did you do?" And you're like, "I took a shower. Okay?" (Audience laughs)

Paul: "Look past the blisters (audience laughs) … and look at how red it is, the rest. The not-raised area. Yes! That's healthy! That’s healthy! Visiting hours are over." (Laughs) Give me, give me one.

Nora: That's pretty good. Okay. I love when you have exactly enough coffee in the morning, and not—Okay, so this is like very, um, me (laughs), maybe specific to people who are just sensitive to caffeine, but where you have like enough that's you're like satisfied with the amount of coffee that you've had. But then you don't have some much, that you feel like your heart's gonna explode. It's like a fine line, and you're like … I've drank the whole cup while it was still hot. And so now I'm satisfied with that amount. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna go for two, and then regret it in two hours and be like, "Oh god! Like (laughs), why does this feel like (laughs) …

Paul: That is such a good one, cuz it is so hard to nail that completely.

Nora: It really is.

Paul: Cuz sometimes caffeine will—Like, this morning, I drank it too early, after taking Adderall, and it backfired on me. And I had to go take a nap. You know? So I have to usually wait like three hours of being up to, to drink caffeine. I don't know why I'm, I think that you give a shit about the timing of my (audience laughs), my coffee drink.

Nora: I, I don’t know why I think you care how much coffee I drink. But, we have these microphones. We are in power.

Paul: That's right.

Nora: The doors are locked. This is your family now. (Pause) What do I love, write it down. Things are going well. Obviously, like my husband, whatever. (Audience laughs)

Paul: I love when you think you're gonna throw up, but 10 minutes later you feel fine.

Nora: Oh … WOW!

Paul: Where you're, where you're, you think, "Oh my god! The rest of the night, I'm gonna be on the fucking bathroom floor! I'm gonna miss this. I'm gonna miss that." And then you burp, and you're like, "Oh! This is awesome!" (Audience laughs)

Nora: That is … Okay. I love when you're so tired, and you know you're falling asleep, and you have that one, like just little blip of a moment between falling asleep and being asleep. And you're like, "I did it." (Audience laughs) Like … you know?

Paul: Oh, that's good. Especially for people that struggle to fall asleep.

Nora: Yeah. Yeah. When you're like, "Oh my god. I'm just do it, it's, it's so effortless. Why am I even observing this? I should not fucking notice." Like, yeah.

Paul: I've been experiencing—

Nora: "I don't wanna jinx it."

Paul: I've been experiencing the opposite of that, where I lay in bed, and I'm so exhausted. And I feel myself drifting off to sleep. And then I become more and more awake. And then I can't sleep, and I have to go eat sugar. And that's the only thing that helps me sleep.

Nora: REALLY?!

Paul: Yes.

Nora: Oh god. I have to like … uh, my husband falls asleep the minute he even like hears the word sleep. Like, thud! He just fell asleep. So, it's so irritating. And he's like, "Oh, I love when you fall asleep. It's so sweet." I'm like, "When you fall asleep, I want to choke you (audience laughs) … to death. Like—"

Paul: Especially when they're snoring.

Nora: Oh my god. He snores immediately. And he's like, "Oh, it's so cute when you snore." I'm like, "When YOU snore … like I, I fucking HATE you! Like I hate you so much." And I'll like take his face, I'm like, "TURN OVER!" I'm just so mean about it. (Audience laughs) And like … I was pregnant and like snoring. And he was always like, "You're so sweet." And I was like, "If you fucking touch me (audience laughs), when I am attempting to fall asleep—If you dare fall asleep first, if you remove a layer of clothing, if I feel a body hair near me, in the same bed, and it wakes me up, fucking ring off. Okay? Just—"

Paul: Good bye. You'll just chop your finger off, cuz you know, you have to get it off so fast. Why go get the dish soap?

Nora: (Laughs) Like, I … yeah. So he's, uh, uh, I bet he left (laughs). So I think he's gone forever and I don't blame him. But he falls asleep so quickly, and I am so jealous.

Paul: And the snoring is, is just, it's such salt in the wound. It's like you're, like when you're following, like when one cars following another in a cartoon and it drops tacks and oil and smoke.

Nora: Exactly. I'm like, "I'm not gonna get there. And this guy just fucking enjoying his REM."

Paul: I have a, a specific, actually, in-the-moment moment. I was winter-camping, and I was super, super tired, cuz it was at the end of the day. And the sun had just set. And we were in this, like this bowl on this, on this ridge line, where the wind, uh, we were sheltered from the wind. And it had started snowing—You know those BIG, thick, snowflakes when there, there's just … There's almost no wind, and so they're just kind of dropping straight down. And I went and I put on my warmest down, everything. And I just leaned back into a snow bank. And, and I'm just laying there. And there's … Can’t hear any wind. So there's no sound, except for the tiny, tiny sound of snowflakes hitting the edge of my parka. And I just felt like my blood pressure just completely lower. And it was a—

Nora: That's dangerous for me. So (laughs) …

Paul: Yes. And I saw a blonde lady pass out. (Audience laughs) Do you, uh, give, give us a moment that, that you remember, where you're completely present.

Nora: In like recent memory, probably none—

Paul: Any time. Any time.

Nora: —at all. Okay (laughs). I do remember having a baby, um, and (laughs), like right before I got the epidural, which I like walked in and I was like, "I'd like an epidural, and a baby, if I have to." (Audience laughs) And, it hurt so bad, I felt like my body was cracking in half. And my sweet husband touched my shoulder and said, "You're doing a good job." And I was like (in voice of possessed person), "Of course I'm doing a good job! (Audience laughs) Get your fucking hands off me!" But I was in the moment. I was definitely there. (Audience laughs) I was definitely there. And the nurse was like, "We're gonna, we're gonna tranquilize you pretty quick." I didn’t even get an epidural. They just … darted me in the neck. And I woke up—

Paul: They shot you from across the room? (Audience laughs) The guy with the safari hat?

Nora: (Laughs) I woke up and they're like, "Here's the baby!" (Laughs)

Paul: Give me another love.

Nora: But I, I do love (audience laughs), like, uh, any day when I don’t pick up my phone, and I don’t even think about it. I don't think anything takes me out of the moment more than my phone. I think it's … like a sickness (laughs) for most people, including me. And, that I can—Yeah, I really do. I just think it's, I think it's awful. And, I don’t actually need it as much as I think I do. And, um … nothing will like snap me out of that more than like my child being like, "Hey. Hey—"

Paul: "Remember me?"

Nora: Yeah. "Remember me?" And I'm like, "Not really. Which one are you?" (Audience laughs) So, so the, yeah, that bums me out. But, I think, yeah, snow's always a good one. I have this like, memory—Every time I'm not driving and it's snowing, I do this thing. If you're sitting in the front—it only works if you're sitting in the front seat, so sorry … back seat people (laughs). But like, you look forward and you focus on like one piece of snow coming towards you while you're driving. And it's SO AMAZING!

Paul: Yes. And you imagine that you're killing it, and it feels delicious.

Nora: Oh, I just—

Paul: No? (Audience laughs)

Nora: —I, yeah, I just, I love that. I love that. But yeah. It is, it's very hard to be in the present moment for, for me.

Paul: I just had an idea—

Nora: It's hard.

Paul:—that, to get people off their phones more, we should pass a law that all phones have to be shaped like thumbs. And to use them, you have to put 'em in your mouth. (Audience laughs) Cuz isn't that really what it is? The incessant checking of the phone? It's kind of the adult … sucking your thumb.

Nora: Oh, it is. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like the need to like not be alone with your own—

Paul: I need to soothe—

Nora: —with your own thoughts.

Paul: I need to soothe.

Nora: Yeah.

Paul: Laying in bed with my girlfriend, while she strokes my head and feeling myself calm down and having physical proof that someone loves me. And … if I need, would probably take care of me.

Nora: Awww! That's really good (laughs). I'm like emotional (laughs). Like that's really nice. Oh, that's really sweet! I don’t love anything—

Paul: And, by girlfriend, I mean … I mean prostitute. (Audience laughs)

Nora: A girlfriend experience.

Paul: That's right. A girlfriend experience (laughs).

Nora: Worth, worth it. Worth the, worth the investment, you're worth it. Okay? Don’t let anyone tell you you're not. Good thing I wrote down things I love.

Paul: Another audience one, while … Here's one.

Meagan: One thing I love—

Paul: What's your name?

Meagan: Oh. Sorry. I'm Meagan—

Paul: Hi, Meagan.

Meagan: Hey. So, one thing I love is about Minnesota, particularly, we’re all about to experience this thing called winter. But my favorite thing is after the winter, all of these decrepit, pale Minnesotans emerge from their houses and come out on the very first warm day of winter to gather to be like, "Yay, we did it! We get to experience this awesome spring again."

Paul: That's a great one. And the guy in shorts and the tank top (audience laughs) … that doesn’t give a shit … cuz he's drunk.

Nora: Yeah. You also see that—

Paul: That's a good one.

Nora: —like if you drive around near like the University of Minnesota. There's always like one dude who thinks he's so cool. And he's wearing fucking flip flops. And you're like, "It's nine degrees out. Like—"

Paul: "You're in slush."

Nora: Yeah! "You're in slush. Like, what are you doing? It’s not shorts weather. It's not, you're not, you're not quirky. You're irritating me. You're, you're calves are irritating me! It's nine degrees. Put some pants on! Get in the van. I'm your mom now. Okay? (Audience laughs) You clearly can't be on your own."

Paul: I love, too, that when spring comes, your sense of smell comes back. Cuz it's like, your sense of smell kind of goes away, except for that first five seconds when you walk into a warm house. That's it.

Nora: Yeah. Oh, I love that. Okay. I love the first five pieces of candy corn. And then after that, it's diminishing returns. (Audience laughs) And it's so bad, that I won't stop eating it. I’ll eat the whole bag. I'll be like, "I hate this. I hate myself. I can't even feel my throat." (Audience laughs) It's so, it's just like … different oils and colors … and sugars combined. But just five pieces: that's wonderful! It’s delightful. More than that, somebody just … take it from me. Like what are … how was I left alone with a bag of candy corn? Okay (laughs)? Like—

Paul: What you have to do, though, is with the first five, put 'em, uh, make 'em like teeth, and then speak in a British accent. (Audience laughs) And ask when the dentist is. That's, that's what I like to do. How do you, how do you eat yours? Do you have a particular way?

Nora: With a, uh, knife and a fork, like everybody. (Audience laughs)

Paul: Perched in one of the English-like egg hoisters?

Nora: Just … I slice it into small … Like, uh, the cartoon version of, uh, "A Christmas Carol," where Mickey, uh, slices that bean for his family. And Tiny Tim's like, "Oh, a bean!" And like, that is like the … uh, the, what I think of when I think of "A Christmas Carol," is literally Mickey just slicing the bean. And I love it. I love that image. That's, I was like, that's, that's what I grew up thinking poverty was. It was like slicing the bean for Christmas (laughs). You know ….

Paul: Was it in an English accent?

Nora: Yeah.

Paul: (Pauses) When a dog trips. (Audience laughs) Cuz it's so rare, it's like the queen just farted. (Audience laughs) You know? Or Trump apologized. It's just like … how did that happen?

Nora: (Laughs) I love when people fall. So I thought Wednesday was hilarious immediately. But, um, I also, I love when, like kids fall. Honestly, my kids like are so clumsy. We have an almost two-year-old. And it's like he takes corners like a cartoon. He's like (makes sounds), like, just like trying to turn his whole body. (Audience laughs) And he will run into, like this wall is never moved. It's always there. And he'll be like, th-, th-, thud! And we just think it's so funny. He's just so cute and dumb. And we're like, "It's still there. Can you take that corner … slower? Or just … account for it? That there's a wall. Right there, buddy. Every time."

Paul: And is her crying when he hits it?

Nora: No, he's just like (makes sound). Like he's like a cartoon, just like spins around and just boop! And then back up.

Paul: I was gonna say, if, if he was crying and you're laughing—

Nora: I'd be annoyed.

Paul:—at him, that would be, that would be, that would be different.

Nora: That'd be funnier. (Audience laughs)

Paul: Well, you'd have the camera going. And then people would, uh, revolt on Twitter. And you'd be fired. This is kind of a long one. When John Coltrane makes his saxophone sound like a person is not just crying, but like, it's bad. But it's actually … after I started listening to him, I realized, "Oh, he's just trying to sound human. He's trying to make his saxophone sound like a, a person." And so, every time I hear him play that, that kind of—Do you know the sound I'm talking about? John Coltrane, that he plays.

Nora: None of us are smart enough for jazz (audience laughs), is what I'd like to (laughs), like to just …

Paul: I hate 90 percent of jazz, by the way. But there something about him that's really meditative and human about the sound that he makes. And it, I think it's, it's that … sound of the sadness that we bury deep, deep, deep down inside of us that can only come out once in a while. And when we do it, almost … Like have you ever cried and surprised yourself by the sound that comes out of you? That's what, that's what I like.

Nora: I think that's like a uniquely male experience, because women are so good at like, I can cry like efficiently. Like I can make, "Got it out. Fine." Like, or just like (makes sound), and just, it's over. And like, maybe a min-, like honestly a minute seems long for me. Like I can just get it out. And then, every time I've seen a man cry, I'm like, "You’ve saved this for like 17 years (audience laughs), and you're out of your, out of control, honestly, right now. Like I've … we have to go somewhere (audience laughs). Like and you're making so much NOISE! And it's so sweet and also like, if you just did this every six days … you would feel better. And it would be more (laughs) efficient for all of us. Like it just would be. It would be."

Paul: But then we wouldn’t root for our team as hard. (Audience laughs)

Nora: Yeah. Maybe, yes.

Paul: Or wouldn’t project all of that—

Nora: Yeah. Wouldn't be building stuff. Woodworking, losing fingers—

Paul: The world was built by stuffed pain.

Nora: (Laughs)

Paul: Thank you guys so much for, uh, coming out. How about a hand for, uh, Nora McInerney? (Audience applauds)

End of Interview

[01:18:07] Many, many thanks. Man, I love talking to her. And as I mentioned before, if you're a Patreon subscriber, uh, there's another 40 minutes of, uh, of … that conversation with her on the Patreon site.

[01:18:20] I have mentioned many times that BetterHelp is a sponsor of this podcast. I love it. If you’ve never tried online therapy, uh, I dig it. I love not having to leave my house. And I get to have the eye contact. I do it over video. You could do it, if you wanted, you could it, uh, just voice. You could do email, live texts, uh, whatever you want. But I, I really like. And I've been doing it with them for … god, probably almost two years. So if you're interested, check it out. Go to betterhelp.com/mental. Make sure you include the "/mental" part, so they know you came from this podcast. And then just fill out a questionnaire and they’ll match you up with a betterhelp.com counselor. And you can experience a free week of counseling to see if online counseling is right for you. And you need to be 18 years old. And all the links, whenever I mention a sponsor or stuff like that, um, they go up under the show notes for, uh, for each episode.

[01:19:16] Want to, uh, also give a shout out to our sponsor for today, SquareSpace. Turn your dream into a reality … with SquareSpace. Why would you want your dream to just sit there and not morph into a reality? SquareSpace makes it easier than ever to launch your passion project, whether you're looking to start a new business, showcase your work, publish content, sell products, and more. SquareSpace is the tool for you. They have beautiful templates by world-class designers and the ability to customize just about anything with a few clicks. And you can easily make a beautiful web site yourself. SquareSpace's powerful e-commerce functionality lets you sell anything online, and analytics help you grow your site in real time. Everything is optimized for mobile right out of the box, and there's nothing to patch or upgrade ever. Buying domains is simple, and you'll get the help you need SquareSpace's 24/7 award-winning customer support. SquareSpace empowers millions of people, from designers to lawyers, artists to gamers, even restaurants and gyms, to turn great ideas into something real. And I've used their stuff. I have a, uh, SquareSpace domain, where I put up my pictures that I like to take of dogs. And little musical things that I write and record. And if you ever wanna go check those out, it's, uh, I believe it's, uh, paul-gilmartin.squarespace.com. Right? Yeah. Something like that. I'll put the link up under the show notes for the two people that are interested in (laughs) seeing what I created. So, head to squarespace.com/mental for a free trial. Then when you're ready to launch, use the offer code "mental" to save 10 percent off your first purchase of a web site or domain. That's squarespace.com/mental, and offer code "mental".

[01:21:13] So, we've got some, some great, uh, surveys, as always. God bless you guys for going and, and, and filling them out. We've got some really, uh, interesting ones, uh, from people's experiences in psych wards. And, of course, some awfulsome moments and some happy moments and an interesting email. This, uh, first one is an awfulsome moment filled out by, um, somebody who calls themselves, I think it's, uh, female. She calls herself, "I'm Sorry I'm So Apologetic." And she writes, "To provide some background on this story, I come from a conservative, Christian home. I went to a conservative, Christian college. In my sophomore year, I decided to get my nose pierced. Nothing flashy, just a stud." That's what people say about me (laughs). "Some of my friends had it, and I thought it was super adorable. In an effort to keep my parents updated on my life, I included this piece of information in an email to them. My dad, who was a straight-laced lawyer with a straight-laced engineer father, later expressed to me that he questioned his ability as a parent when he found out ant it. I told him, 'Dad, I just thought it was cute. There's nothing more to read into it than that.' Even then, I knew his reaction was extremely out of proportion. Back to the real story. Just this past year, my older brother separated from his wife of seven years. My mom told me—and there were no children involved. My mom told me that my dad went into a deep depression, where he did not talk to anyone but my mom, and every interaction with her was mean. He holed himself away in his man cave, again, questioning his parenting abilities. This lasted for a good month. I realized during this time that my father truly believes that everything that happens to his loved ones, including his adult children, is a direct result of his successes or failures. I also realized then that my father is the most miserable man that I know, convinced that he is in control of everything, when in fact the opposite is true. He's the most miserable person I know, because even though he raised two awesome kids who are doing good in the world despite not having perfect lives, he still drowns in self-pity and self-judgment when things happen in our lives that are off the beaten path. I feel bad for my mom, and wish she would take some time away from him, telling his to get therapy before she considers living with him again. My mom is an awesome woman and would have fostered a 15-year-old girl by now, if my dad wasn’t such a miserable and selfish person and could actually handle it. All she can do now is mentor her from afar and hope that she gets placed with a good family. I shared this awfulsome moment because it is absurdly amusing and painful at the same time. I long for a deeper relationship with my dad, and this is probably the biggest source of pain in my life right now. I cannot touch anything below the surface because if we cannot agree on something, he storms off or gets rude. Sometimes it is so ridiculous I have to laugh. But most of the time, it makes me wanna cry." Thank you for that. That was, um … sadly all too common. That, that GAP that can be so hard to bridge with a parent that hasn’t worked on their shit yet. And … you know, or, or, maybe the kid that hasn’t worked on their shit yet. But it sounds, in that one, like, like she's worked on her stuff and, and wants to be intimate. But, man, people … the prisons that we create in our own minds. When I was living, uh, you know, before I had to get sober and get help and do a lot of … self-reflection … you could not have convinced me … that I was doing anything wrong, really. You know? I, I always felt that I was right. I was so arrogant, still can be. And it's just hard to see, when, when … probably when you're not ready, when you don’t want to. You have to want to change, you know. And that's why hitting a bottom … can be so great because that desperation … can really, uh … can really change things.

[01:25:37] This is an awfulsome moment filled out by a woman who calls herself "There's Comfort In The Panic." She writes, "Those strange moments when my yet-to-be-officially-diagnosed POCD makes—" which I believe stands for pure OCD, which is just obsessive, uh, thoughts that, that make the person uncomfortable. "—my yet-to-be-officially-diagnosed POCD makes me fear that I'm secretly a child predator, and I have a split second moment of differentiating what I want from what I'm afraid I want. The moments when I check in with myself—because I've yet to figure out how to beat my own compulsions, and in the midst of imagining some sexually-graphic scenario in an attempt to prove to myself that I would, in fact, find it revolting to engage with a child that way—I realize how different it feels in my mind to picture that same scenario with a consenting adult. My fear is more specific to female children, and it terrifies me to think about it. But there are moments when the idea of being with an adult woman that way—I'm bisexual—is such a comfort. To be physically intimate with someone who'd want me to touch them that way, to kiss her and hold her and revel in the ability to give her pleasure, feels so radically different from the fear and anxiety of my obsession that for a moment, it reminds me how to breathe and that there's still hope in the world for me." Thank you so much for that. And if you guys haven’t listened to the episode with, um, uh, Kimberly Quinlan, uh, she's a therapist who specialized in dealing with OCD. It's a great, really great one. And we’ve got her, uh, an episode coming up, return episode with her as well.

[01:27:25] This is a psych ward experience survey filled out by, um, a guy who calls himself "Over It." And, he was hospitalized for suicidal thoughts. And he writes, "Overall, my experiences have been poor. I've been hospitalized around eight times for this reason. The psychiatric treatment was forceful and excessive, which has caused me to gain 50 pounds twice. The psychiatrists seemed to have an agenda, and the meetings with them seemed like just a formality. I had a psychiatrist that rarely looked at me, while he just typed on his laptop and didn’t give me the time of time." Wonder if he … meant to say time of day. "It's always seemed like a power trip with those guys. Just bad experiences mostly and feeling like I'm in prison." Thank you for sharing that. You know, it, it, it's amazing how … divergent … the experiences are of people that have been in psych wards. Some of them can be really healing and life-changing and helpful. And for others, it … is just the opposite.

[01:28:45] This is a happy moment filled out by … a woman who calls herself "Unearned Happiness." She writes, "My daughter's 20 months old. The first year of her life was awful for me. The stress of caring for a newborn was too much for me, accompanied by guilt that I wasn’t happier about having a child. That I couldn’t handle things better. That I wasn’t more patient with her, and that I wished I had more time to myself. Fast forward to now. Shit is still hard. She loves being read to, sometimes like 10 books in a row, which can be exhausting, but I'm not gonna be the asshole who discourages my child from reading. One of her current favorites is this book called 'Little Sleepy Head' that goes through different body parts. One day, she brought it to me and said, 'Head!' As I read the book, she acted it out. 'Tired little feet;' she lifted her feet up. 'Tired little arms, reaching up so high.' She lifted her arms and said, 'High.' 'Tired little lips, blowing kisses sweet.' She brought her hand to her mouth and made a loud kissing noise. 'Mwah.' It was a small moment, but one that reminded me why I did this, why I chose to have a child. She is this amazing little person with a great personality. She's funny, often intentionally so. In that moment, her enjoyment was my enjoyment. And I was reminded how good it can be sometimes." Beautiful. BEAU-TI-FUL!

[01:30:23] This is an email I got from, uh, a therapist who wishes to, uh, remain anonymous. And he writes, uh, this is just a portion of what he, uh, he wrote to me. But he's a, a licensed clinical social worker. And he writes, um, "Experiencing a trauma does not guarantee you will have PTSD. People are different. Some people will feel better if you give them love and support and time. But others, even with love and support and time, will not improve on their own. In my case, the symptoms got slightly better on their own, then plateaued at a level that remained uncomfortable for me, hence the diagnosis. That's why just about any diagnosis in the DSM includes the stipulations of symptoms lasting a certain amount of time. Also very important is that the symptoms are interfering with one's daily life. So, if your guest was saying that an initial negative reaction to a trauma was normal and therefore not a disorder, he's right. But if the presenting symptoms failed to go away on their own and if they are interfering with one's life, they are collectively a disorder." Thank you for that.

[01:31:33] And speaking of, uh, trauma, this was, uh, a question, a comment somebody made, a woman who calls herself "Spaz Man." "I'd like it if you could talk about how to balance dismissing trauma versus wallowing in trauma and how to find a happy medium. To feel my pain healthily, but not be swallowed by it." That's a difficult question to … to answer fully, because people are so complicated. Trauma is so complicated. And, certain modalities that might work well for one person might not work well for another person. Or, the person applying the modality, uh, might not be an ideal fit for that person. But … feelings are feelings, and whether they are categorized as trauma or not, it's important to process them with someone. Because if you're processing them with someone, you know, a therapist or a support group, they can give you feedback and sometimes help you recognize if you're stuck on something. Or, if you're, maybe closing your mind to, uh, doing some work that might help you. The problem is when we have trauma and we just isolate. That, to me … When … you know, when we use the word wallow, what comes up for me is, I picture somebody who is in pain, but doesn’t wanna do anything to get better. And they just obsess about it. But somebody who's processing it, yeah, you may be thinking about it a lot, but … if you're doing work to get better, you're going to make headway. It'll probably won't be on the schedule that you'd like. So I guess the biggest difference is, are you seeking help and are you doing what is suggested when you seek help from qualified people. Cuz if you're not, cuz you don’t wanna do anything about it, then that to me is wallowing in it. And if the person is wearing a wallowing shirt. I have a big, blousy wallowing shirt. When I'm really wallowing, I wear a moo-moo … and open-toed shoes.

[01:34:05] This is a, a, a psych ward … experience, filled out by a 15-year-old girl. And it really touched me because, well, for many reasons. But, it’s so descriptive of her experience, and it was like a little movie that, that she … painted. She calls herself … "Ally Isn't My Real Name." "When I was 12, I got into a series of arguments with my mom over my obsession with two YouTube gaming channels. She thought the people who ran each of the channels were in a relationship and didn't approve of their content or that I watched their videos all day, every day until sometimes in the early morning." And I'm just gonna fast-forward a little bit. So her mom, she and her mom would kind of disagree. And she fell into a funk and she wrote in her journal that all she could about is what her funeral would look like. And her mom came across her journal and read it. And … her mom, uh, had her removed from school, and they put her into a mental health facility. "When we arrived at a hospital, I imagined I would be laid back in a hospital bed with a gown and an IV in my arm. My mom told the receptionist I had suicidal tendencies. And those two words rang in my head every night when I tried to fall asleep for the next six days. We were taken into a large room with a couch, a little round table, and a chair. We waited for two hours, until a man came in and said he wanted to ask me some questions. I asked him if my parents could wait outside. Had I ever considered committing homicide? 'No.' Had I ever considered committing suicide? 'I thought about it.' Did I have a plan to commit suicide? 'No.' Had I considered self-harm? 'No.' Had I ever used or sold drugs? 'No.' He left the room and had me fill out a chart with the same questions he'd just asked me, except it was a yellow piece of paper stapled to a pink one that made it so I couldn’t change my answer. I was admitted for 'just a few days' to be watched. I was on my period, and during the time we were waiting, the blood had soaked through my pants. My mom gave me her thick wool coat to tie around my waist, and I was led away to the unit where the other 'inmates' were at dinner and it was mostly empty. I use prison terms because it felt more to me like I was being punished than that I got any kind of help. This might be going on too long. Regardless, I will tell the full story. I sat on a rolling stool next to a computer desk, while one of the employees(?) (I honestly still don't know what they're called) filled in my information. When she would leave for a while and I was sitting there alone, I would look towards the heavy locked doors and imagine my best friend who had had some struggles bursting through the doors and us going through what was about to happen together. At any moment, I thought she would appear, but it was completely illogical. I've repeated my experience in my head so many times, that a few certain details are vivid, while the order of the rest of the events are anyone's guess. Every single night, right as I would be half-asleep, someone would freak out and be restrained. One night, I think it was the first, one of the guys flipped a huge medicine cart over on its side, making a sound like a bomb and spilling medication and broken plastic everywhere. He started screaming at the top of his lungs, while the 'guards' took him out of my line of sight and restrained him or put him to sleep or something. I sat there on a rubber mat on top of a bolted down wooden bed frame terrified and staring at the direction of the commotion with blurry vision because it happened so quick that I couldn’t get my glasses on fast enough. Another night, when we were in the day room eating chewy hospital cookies and coloring with supervised use of pencils, another guy (girls and guys were on separate sides of the room) got angry and flipped the plastic table onto another inmate. We were escorted out of the room and put on lockdown for the evening. A trans boy who was forced to sit with the girls was in trouble for trying to slit their wrist with playing cards, so they were put in a gray suit and locked in isolation with nothing but a port hole to look out of when the guard shut the door. For the first maybe two nights, I had a room to myself. And then I was given a roommate who I'll call Shoshan. The first night we were together, she got angry at one of the guards, so she stood in the doorway of our room, took off one of the heavy black sandals we all had to wear, and started throwing it into the ceiling tile, wailing 'Restrain me! Restrain me!' The tile broke and hit the floor in a cloud of dust and broken plaster. They grabbed her and dragged her to the day room. Another guard took me out of the room and sat me in the visitor room with the door ajar. I watched them wrestle her onto a table and inject her with a sort of tranquilizer while she was kicking and screaming. I'd never done it before, and I'd never done it since, but I sat there in shock and scratched at my wrist bone with the sharp edge of my hospital bracelet. I didn’t draw blood. I just wanted something else to focus on. The first full day I was admitted, they had me go into a conference room and do a sort of interview with one of their interns. I don’t remember what his name was, but he looked exactly like 