Just to clarify, Bistiza, is one of your main points that LeBron should have displayed loyalty to the Cavs and stuck with them for drafting him, since they were his first team and he should have tried to win with that team?

Posted by dahsdebater on 7/5/2013 4:56:00 PM (view original):Read this if you dare. This is actually a spin-off, but you get the gist of it.

I was wondering about that thread. Interesting, pretty much everything that Bistiza accuses people of doing in this thread, he did in that one. And what happened to the "data" that he posted? Did he really delete it? And if so, why? Don't worry, I've got a pretty good idea.

its because his evidence was not needed, because his conclusion was as obvious as the existence of gravity. which only took man a few million - err, i mean about 9000 years to realize. the real question is this - if it took man a few million or ~9000 years to realize gravity existed, depending on if you are a total nut job or not, then how many years will it take bistiza to realize his stunning intellect is only a figment of his imagination?

Posted by coach_billyg on 7/5/2013 4:18:00 PM (view original):i dont know what is sadder... bistiza's irrational belief that he is god's gift to debate, or everyone else's irrational belief that logical arguments might actually sway bistiza in some way...

its hard to tell if bistiza is trolling or really just is that way. how someone can be so condescending and not see it is beyond me. and how someone can present such incredibly weak arguments and not see it is beyond me. but somehow, i feel like bistiza is genuinely trying to have a debate/discussion, not just stringing everybody along in a 29 page troll session (well, not intentionally, at least). i suppose truly, ignorance is bliss.

Remember the 30+ page "Work Ethic" thread? Remember how he refused to budge on anything? I think this is how he really operates.

yup, i remember the whole "i dont care that its as obvious as gravity TO YOU ALL that spoiled high school kids dont automatically put in 100% no matter what, i dont think that way, and you are all idiots because you didnt prove anything". unfortunately. hence, my comment...

Posted by coach_billyg on 7/5/2013 5:29:00 PM (view original):i was serious about the moderator question though. i often wonder (typically, when exposed to threads such as this) if it is good for a moderator to lock a thread like this. on one hand, if people want to waste their time arguing with someone like this - shouldn't you let them? on the other hand, despite the fact that every person who chooses to massacre their brain cells by reading these posts has made the choice to do so, and despite the fact that every person who chooses to post has made the choice to do so - doesnt it create somewhat of a negative atmosphere for the forums in general?

lulz, great idea, censor a thread just because you don't like it's "atmosphere".

No I'm not from Cleveland, but used to be a Cavs fan when I was a kid (I did live in Ohio for a couple years when I was young). When I visited friends who happen to live in Cleveland during the LeBron years and we went to playoff games together, I became one again. I cheered for the Cavs because of LeBron.

I would try to respond to all your points but there's been much chatter since. I will bring up points and ask questions regarding the above statement though:

1.) You state here you were a Cavs fan - past tense - which means you either became a fan of another team or gave up following the game for a period or altogether Why is it not ok for Lebron to play for another team but it's ok for you to either root for another team or drop the Cavs as favorite team? This organization you admit did a poor job of building a team around Lebron - so why is he supposed to be a Cav for his entire career after 7 years of falling short? If you had a conversaton with Lebron I think he could throw that one your way and what would you say? This undying loyalty a player should have to an organization would just not benefit most players (maybe if you play for the Spurs). Look at what happened to Pierce and KG. They brought a ring to Boston, Pierce was a Celtic his entire career and they got traded so Boston could rebuild. Where's their loyalty? KG showed loyalty to Boston verbally and through his actions by spurning the Clippers - and what did he get for it? IF you really feel how you do you should be burning up about this trade too because this stuff works both ways. It's just not wise to be unquestionably loyal to something that probably wouldn't be to you. The NBA is a business and that's what every organization says when they trade their players away - in a game that will remember you for what you've done, Lebron more than made the right move.

2.) Just remembering some of the other things you said: Jordan had no reason whatsoever to leave Chicago. Did Jordan improve the atmosphere and make guys want to come play with him? I don't think so I think the Bulls organization had more to do with that - Michael Jordan is probably the most arrogant player in the history of the NBA as great as he was. The Bulls built around him and the guys that played with him didn't necessarily like him but they wanted hardware - if you know of any players, please name some guys Michael personally brought to Chicago.

Posted by dahsdebater on 7/5/2013 8:15:00 PM (view original):Why is it ok for second-tier players to go to Chicago and play with Jordan but it's not ok for the first-tier player to go to Miami and play with other first-tier players?

If Jordan was truly great, he would have said, "don't draft Scottie Pippen, he's too good. I know I won't be known as the greatest player of all time without him, but I don't want him."

The honorable thing to do is to try to win with the team you've got and convince management to make it better, not to jump ship and go somewhere else in pursuit of your own goals of a title. And yes, some players do this. Danny Ainge offered the retired Reggie Miller a chance to join the 2008 Celtics and ride the bench as they pursued (and eventually did win) a title. He never got a ring with the Pacers and would have had a great chance at (and would have actually won) a ring with the Celtics by playing scrub minutes as an old guy - but he turned it down because he actually has some honor and integrity.

Well that's a good story. Too bad it's not true. Reggie Miller didn't go to the Celtics because he couldn't get into shape in time and didn't want to play at 70%. He's talked about it quite a bit.

Just to clarify, Bistiza, is one of your main points that LeBron should have displayed loyalty to the Cavs and stuck with them for drafting him, since they were his first team and he should have tried to win with that team?

No. LeBron should have displayed loyalty to the Cavs because it was in the best interest of the most people rather than selfishly chasing a championship elsewhere.

We live in a free society, as badly as you wish we didn't. The only person whose best best interest LeBron need to consider was his own. Probably would consider his family's interests as well. But I don't think he has any obligation to think "wow, it's going to hurt Cleveland if I leave. So I better stay." That's just a ridiculous standard. Not to mention, as I pointed out previously and you conveniently ignored, you went 30 pages saying it was only The Decision that you had a problem with. Now you're trying to say he shouldn't have left at all. Frankly, a dramatic paradigm shift like that makes it nearly impossible to believe you aren't just being a troll. Hard to believe you would so dramatically change your strongly-held beliefs, given that you've told me in the past that you've thought out all your beliefs so deeply that we're never going to alter them.