Another 1L here planning to take evidence. What do you think of Corporations, Remedies, or Constitutional History I (is it a problem that Con Law would be concurrent)? Also, if you don't mind, why do you think Antitrust is a bad idea?

Twiqbal wrote:Another 1L here planning to take evidence. What do you think of Corporations, Remedies, or Constitutional History I (is it a problem that Con Law would be concurrent)? Also, if you don't mind, why do you think Antitrust is a bad idea?

Evidence, corps, and remedies are all probably solid choices. Con History I is an oddball, no idea what that would be like before con law.

My intuition is that antitrust straddles the line between "a class some people take" and "a class obnoxious people strive to take and gun to pieces." It's not admin or fed courts, but it's definitely closer to them than a class like corps or remedies.

I might be wrong though; I never took it. Maybe some obnoxious people who took classes to strive and gun to pieces (Cavalier, are you out there?) will chime in.

Personally, I'd steer clear of Corporate Finance unless you have a background in that area or did some related undergraduate course.

It's a course that gives out a fairly high number of A-'s, A's and a few A+'s - correspondingly, there's a higher number of students who will get a B or below. A 'C' grade could kill your GPA.

I know several students who were stung by corporate finance in their 1L spring.

As you head into OGI in the fall, you want to protect your GPA. If you think you can score in the higher range, it can be a good course. But if you want to take the course simply because it will be useful, take it next year after OGI.

albanach wrote:Personally, I'd steer clear of Corporate Finance unless you have a background in that area or did some related undergraduate course.

It's a course that gives out a fairly high number of A-'s, A's and a few A+'s - correspondingly, there's a higher number of students who will get a B or below. A 'C' grade could kill your GPA.

I know several students who were stung by corporate finance in their 1L spring.

As you head into OGI in the fall, you want to protect your GPA. If you think you can score in the higher range, it can be a good course. But if you want to take the course simply because it will be useful, take it next year after OGI.

Any time this comes up, we disagree on it. I don't think accounting/corp finance is much different than any other course you're going to find so long as you are competent in basic algebra. re: grades, I'm not sure what Geis's distributions look like, but i know that last year both accounting and corporate finance were extremely normal curves, with only 5 getting B-s (and no C level grades) in corporate finance. That was not Geis, though. You'd have to check Geis's curves for corporate finance.

It's anecdotal on both sides, however.

edit: also, it sucks to have an exam halfway through the semester (accounting). But it is extremely underrated that when finals rolls around, you only have to prepare for half a semester's worth of material for the corporate finance exam. Very credited.

5ky wrote:Any time this comes up, we disagree on it. I don't think accounting/corp finance is much different than any other course you're going to find so long as you are competent in basic algebra. re: grades, I'm not sure what Geis's distributions look like, but i know that last year both accounting and corporate finance were extremely normal curves, with only 5 getting B-s (and no C level grades) in corporate finance. That was not Geis, though. You'd have to check Geis's curves for corporate finance.

It's anecdotal on both sides, however.

Of course its okay to disagree, but the comment was made and asked for thoughts. I don't expect everyone to have read the entire thread.

The grade distribution was normal - but that is to an extent forced by the need to his a median. That said, I have been told - and therefore this is entirely anecdotal - that the exam scores were not a normal distribution. I was told there were a number of very very high scoring exams. I don't know if that can be checked?

I also personally know students who just graduated and current 3L and 2L students who were surprised at how poorly they performed given the effort they put in. All of them considered themselves reasonably confident with numbers.

I still think it holds that where a course is not a traditional doctrinal course and especially if the curve tends to be wider then you should consider carefully if you think you can be in the middle/upper part of that curve. This is especially so in 1L spring when your grades are so important.

I only meant that the curve wasn't any wider than a typical course, though I was unclear by using "normal."

I'm also of the opinion that if you want to do corporate work, it would behoove you to take courses your 1L spring that indicate interest in that, particularly if you are K-JD or did not have corporate type work experience. People say it doesn't matter at all, but that was not my experience. I was questioned multiple times about why I didn't take any corporate-leaning courses if I wanted to work in corporate.

5ky wrote:I only meant that the curve wasn't any wider than a typical course, though I was unclear by using "normal."

I'm also of the opinion that if you want to do corporate work, it would behoove you to take courses your 1L spring that indicate interest in that, particularly if you are K-JD or did not have corporate type work experience. People say it doesn't matter at all, but that was not my experience. I was questioned multiple times about why I didn't take any corporate-leaning courses if I wanted to work in corporate.

* shrug * I was K-JD with a theatrical background, took international law + a bioethics seminar as a 1L, and had no problem interviewing for corporate positions. They definitely asked about my interest in corporate, but I never got the impression I was expected to have taken accounting/corporate finance or corporations, or that it would have given me a bump had I done so.

In fact, nothing seemed to work as well as lamenting how awful 1L year is at exposing you to transactional law in any way.

Keep in mind UVA's spring elective options are relatively generous; these firms are hiring from schools where taking anything corporate as a 1L is literally impossible.

5ky wrote:I only meant that the curve wasn't any wider than a typical course, though I was unclear by using "normal."

I'm also of the opinion that if you want to do corporate work, it would behoove you to take courses your 1L spring that indicate interest in that, particularly if you are K-JD or did not have corporate type work experience. People say it doesn't matter at all, but that was not my experience. I was questioned multiple times about why I didn't take any corporate-leaning courses if I wanted to work in corporate.

* shrug * I was K-JD with a theatrical background, took international law + a bioethics seminar as a 1L, and had no problem interviewing for corporate positions. They definitely asked about my interest in corporate, but I never got the impression I was expected to have taken accounting/corporate finance or corporations, or that it would have given me a bump had I done so.

In fact, nothing seemed to work as well as lamenting how awful 1L year is at exposing you to transactional law in any way.

Keep in mind UVA's spring elective options are relatively generous; these firms are hiring from schools where taking anything corporate as a 1L is literally impossible.

That's kind of what I was expecting -- which made it really odd. A few even asked me what courses I was taking for 2L, after asking me about why I didn't take any corporate type classes, and had a visibly positive reaction when I told them of my heavy corporate-style 2L load.

I haven't honestly heard of many other people for whom that happened, so that is really anecdotal. But it was fairly prevalent for me.

anon sequitur wrote:Would you guys recommend coughlin's criminal investigation class for a 1L this spring? I'm interested in the subject, though I don't enjoy my crim law class (not with coughlin).

Also, international law? Fun, interesting, demanding?

I haven't taken Crim Investigations, but I'm sure it's great. Just know that if you take either Crim Investigations or Crim Adjudication (both 3 credits), you cannot take Crim Procedure Survey (4 credits), and vice versa. Just something to keep in mind, because UVA offers comparatively few 4 credit courses, which some kids like to take.

5ky wrote:Any time this comes up, we disagree on it. I don't think accounting/corp finance is much different than any other course you're going to find so long as you are competent in basic algebra. re: grades, I'm not sure what Geis's distributions look like, but i know that last year both accounting and corporate finance were extremely normal curves, with only 5 getting B-s (and no C level grades) in corporate finance. That was not Geis, though. You'd have to check Geis's curves for corporate finance.

It's anecdotal on both sides, however.

Of course its okay to disagree, but the comment was made and asked for thoughts. I don't expect everyone to have read the entire thread.

The grade distribution was normal - but that is to an extent forced by the need to his a median. That said, I have been told - and therefore this is entirely anecdotal - that the exam scores were not a normal distribution. I was told there were a number of very very high scoring exams. I don't know if that can be checked?

I also personally know students who just graduated and current 3L and 2L students who were surprised at how poorly they performed given the effort they put in. All of them considered themselves reasonably confident with numbers.

I still think it holds that where a course is not a traditional doctrinal course and especially if the curve tends to be wider then you should consider carefully if you think you can be in the middle/upper part of that curve. This is especially so in 1L spring when your grades are so important.

Right after I posted asking about this I heard the same thing. I just can't believe that people with this background are not allowed to take the class, but do in droves. Shouldn't this be a really easy thing to fix? Even if student records can't independently verify transcripts, having registrants sign an honor code pledge seems like it would deter a lot of people from taking it who shouldn't.

^I don't think you need a background in corporate finance to do well in it, though. I'm sure there's quite a few Math/Econ folks who do exceptionally well given the fact it is just a problem-solving exam.

blahblewblah wrote:My advice re: accounting and finance is that if you are fairly comfortable with numbers and math, take these courses. There are a lot of people in the classes who are not familiar at all with the concepts. Plus it is a nice way to split up your credits- you get 2 out of the way halfway through, making it 2 less credits to study for during finals, and the finance test during finals is a nice change of pace compared to the other issue spotters you will be taking.

+1. You should definitely take accounting and corporate finance during your 1L spring semester if you are good with numbers. It is a good way to boost your GPA, and it also frees up time to study for other classes. You can study for the accounting final during the spring break when you have really nothing else to do, and you don't even have to create an outline for the corporate finance class. All you need to do (after understanding the concepts) is create a sheet with all of the formulas and do practice problems. I do not have accounting or finance background and did very well in both classes. I personally think, and the school might agree, that it is an honor code violation to take these classes if you have relevant background.

I also recommend International and Foreign Legal Research class (2 units). You don't have to know anything about international law, there is no reading you have to do for the class, and there is no final exam or paper at the end of the semester. You just have to turn in weekly assignments and do a ten-page research guide at the end. The weekly assignments (finding sources and citing them in bluebook format) can be tedious and time-consuming, and it can be hard to figure out what you have to do to get higher scores than everyone else. It can seem like everyone gets the same score no matter how hard you try. However, if you figure out what the instructor wants to see in the assignments, it is not impossible to beat the median in the class. Even if you don't figure it out, you will almost certainly get no worse than B+ if you work hard. Teamwork is encouraged in the class, so you can reduce workload by teaming up with classmates. The bonus is that you satisfy the skills requirement for graduation and become more proficient in cite-checking and bluebooking.

I only had to study for two doctrinal courses during the final exam period while taking the electives I mentioned above, and I saw a huge improvement in my GPA compared to the first semester. Many interviewers during OGI asked me how I was able to improve so dramatically, but no one questioned the legitimacy based on the electives that I took.

1. What is the grade distribution like in Professional Responsibility (Hylton AND Ryan)?

2. One of the classes I am considering offers an optional paper instead of an exam. How does grading work in these scenarios? Are the papers integrated into the curve?

3. How is International Law with Deeks?

1. I don't know about PR with Hylton & Ryan, but you can look at the grade distributions in student records or the library. They really should put these online.

2. Professors have to hit a median grade, so papers have to be included in the curve against those who take exams. I think there's usually a lot of B+ grades with the few exceptional papers / exams doing better and the ones that show signs of little effort compensating with a B. You can probably establish that yourself when you check the grades for Q1.

Had PR with Ryan. Can't speak to the grade distribution because she was a new prof when I had her. My main impression from her class was that she made me work way too hard for what's supposed to be a joke of a class. Not that PR isn't an important subject, but I took it with the understanding that I wouldn't have to do anything, which turned out to be incorrect.