<p>This is absolutely possible. The negotiation between the payment-channel participants can happen over the ad-hoc network.</p>

<p>However, each participant must still run a fully validating node at all times when he/she has an open channel-state, to be able to react to cheating counterparties. This validating full node may receive its updates over the ad-hoc network as well, but must be in consensus with the wider Bitcoin network.</p>

<p>If the ad-hoc network prevents Bitcoin nodes from connecting with other nodes outside of it, this will obviously be a problem.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2018-12-14T11:35:38.100Z
Thanks. So, this may be an alternative to e.g. **Lightning Network** as a **more decentralized** network, where Lightning Network uses **classical Internet routing** relying on **routers** in which a kind of **centralization** is inherent.
Questioner
CC BY-SA 4.0
2018-12-14T13:00:53.993Z
I don't think anything in Lightning Network requires it to use "classical internet routing". You could use bluetooth or ad hoc wifi or sneakernet if you wish. And even using "classical internet" doesn't really make it any more centralized as long as it's hard for centralized parties to classify, let alone censor, the traffic.
Jannes
CC BY-SA 4.0
2018-12-14T13:34:58.153Z
@Jannes , But according to its website: (https://lightning.network/)  _"it is possible to find a path across the network similar to **routing packets on the internet**"_ that means it is relied on **routers** that is **less decentralized** than **ad-hoc** network which does not rely on **central access point** such as a router :https://www.techopedia.com/definition/5868/ad-hoc-network
Questioner
CC BY-SA 4.0
2018-12-14T13:42:40.470Z
@Jannes , I think **by dominating router operation** it is possible to control the traffic.
Questioner
CC BY-SA 4.0
2018-12-14T13:45:08.320Z
You can always run your own Bitcoin chain on your separate adhoc network.
James C.
CC BY-SA 4.0
2018-12-14T13:55:13.670Z
@James C , Do you mean in Lightning Network? And if yes, in case of running our own Bitcoin chain on our separate ad-hoc network, are we still using the same routing protocol that is used in Lightning Network? I mean it does not affect Lightning Network **routing approach**? Thanks
Questioner
CC BY-SA 4.0
2018-12-15T15:42:18.837Z
You're reading way too much into "similar to routing packets on the internet". They just mean that payments can be routed between hops to get from one side to the other. The similarity ends there. It's a peer 2 peer mesh network of ad hoc connections and there is no central access point. There are no routers (everybody is a router). Also: intermediary hops do not know the source and destination so they can't censor.
Jannes
CC BY-SA 4.0
2018-12-17T09:39:43.597Z
@Jannes , Thank you. (1) when you say _"intermediary hops do **not** know the source and destination"_ , then how an intermediary node **is able** to find the best rout for a destination that they do **not** know? And (2) some approaches such as (https://bitfury.com/content/downloads/whitepaper_flare_an_approach_to_routing_in_lightning_network_7_7_2016.pdf) are based on **routers** and **routing tables**. Thank you if you could clarify.
Questioner
CC BY-SA 4.0
2018-12-18T02:13:57.233Z
The intermediary hops don't make routing decisions at all. The source does all of the routing itself in advance. Onion routing is used, roughly similar to Tor. Then again, LN could work with basically any imaginable routing protocol, as all it takes is a bunch of peer to peer nodes that speak a common language. Many further improvements are certainly being worked on.
Jannes
CC BY-SA 4.0
2018-12-18T09:54:54.683Z
@Janne , Thank you, Could you please propose me a document explaining in detail (step by step) the **current routing approach** used in LN ? Thanks very much.
Questioner
CC BY-SA 4.0
2018-12-18T18:32:21.243Z
Probably the BOLT specs. A new version came out just a few weeks ago. Probably on https://lightning.network/ somewhere. Or this older series: https://medium.com/@rusty_lightning/the-bitcoin-lightning-spec-part-1-8-a7720fb1b4da
Jannes
CC BY-SA 4.0
2018-12-14T11:28:43.617Z
2018-12-14T11:28:43.617Z
James C.
<p>If we define an <strong>ad-hoc</strong> network as follows:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>"An ad hoc network is a network that is composed of individual devices
  communicating with each other <strong>directly</strong>." [1]</p>
</blockquote>

<p><strong>ad-hoc</strong> networks do not rely on <strong>routers or access points</strong> (as a <strong>point of failure</strong>) to avoid moving towards <strong>centralization</strong>. In case of using routers or access point, some kind of <strong>centralization</strong> is inherent. </p>

<p>With this definition of <strong>decentralization</strong>, can we implement an <strong>ad-hoc-like</strong> network between users connected by payment channels such that <strong>similar</strong> to ad-hoc network, they do <strong>not</strong> use any <strong>router</strong> to find and communicate each other?</p>

<p><strong>Please note</strong> that I used term of <strong>ad-hoc-like</strong> network (instead of saying <strong>ad-hoc</strong> network) just to say that the target is <strong>removing</strong> any pre-existing infrastructure, such as <strong>routers</strong> from communications between users <strong>similar</strong> to an ad-hoc network.</p>

<hr>

<p>[1] <a href="https://www.techopedia.com/definition/5868/ad-hoc-network" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://www.techopedia.com/definition/5868/ad-hoc-network</a></p>

<terminology><decentralization><micropaymentchannels><off-chain>
Implementing an "ad-hoc-like network of payment channels" on top of Bitcoin network?
Questioner
# Implementing an "ad-hoc-like network of payment channels" on top of Bitcoin network?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2018-12-14)

If we define an **ad-hoc** network as follows:

> "An ad hoc network is a network that is composed of individual devices
> communicating with each other **directly**." [1]

**ad-hoc** networks do not rely on **routers or access points** (as a **point of failure**) to avoid moving towards **centralization**. In case of using routers or access point, some kind of **centralization** is inherent.

With this definition of **decentralization**, can we implement an **ad-hoc-like** network between users connected by payment channels such that **similar** to ad-hoc network, they do **not** use any **router** to find and communicate each other?

**Please note** that I used term of **ad-hoc-like** network (instead of saying **ad-hoc** network) just to say that the target is **removing** any pre-existing infrastructure, such as **routers** from communications between users **similar** to an ad-hoc network.

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[1] <https://www.techopedia.com/definition/5868/ad-hoc-network>

**Tags:** terminology, decentralization, micropaymentchannels, off-chain


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## 1 answers

### Answer by username_1 on 2018-12-14. Score: 2 | Accepted answer

This is absolutely possible. The negotiation between the payment-channel participants can happen over the ad-hoc network.

However, each participant must still run a fully validating node at all times when he/she has an open channel-state, to be able to react to cheating counterparties. This validating full node may receive its updates over the ad-hoc network as well, but must be in consensus with the wider Bitcoin network.

If the ad-hoc network prevents Bitcoin nodes from connecting with other nodes outside of it, this will obviously be a problem.

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Thanks. So, this may be an alternative to e.g. **Lightning Network** as a **more decentralized** network, where Lightning Network uses **classical Internet routing** relying on **routers** in which a kind of **centralization** is inherent.  
> **username_2**: I don't think anything in Lightning Network requires it to use "classical internet routing". You could use bluetooth or ad hoc wifi or sneakernet if you wish. And even using "classical internet" doesn't really make it any more centralized as long as it's hard for centralized parties to classify, let alone censor, the traffic.  
> **username_0**: @username_2 , But according to its website: (https://lightning.network/)  _"it is possible to find a path across the network similar to **routing packets on the internet**"_ that means it is relied on **routers** that is **less decentralized** than **ad-hoc** network which does not rely on **central access point** such as a router :https://www.techopedia.com/definition/5868/ad-hoc-network  
> **username_0**: @username_2 , I think **by dominating router operation** it is possible to control the traffic.  
> **username_1**: You can always run your own Bitcoin chain on your separate adhoc network.  
> **username_0**: @username_1 C , Do you mean in Lightning Network? And if yes, in case of running our own Bitcoin chain on our separate ad-hoc network, are we still using the same routing protocol that is used in Lightning Network? I mean it does not affect Lightning Network **routing approach**? Thanks  
> **username_2**: You're reading way too much into "similar to routing packets on the internet". They just mean that payments can be routed between hops to get from one side to the other. The similarity ends there. It's a peer 2 peer mesh network of ad hoc connections and there is no central access point. There are no routers (everybody is a router). Also: intermediary hops do not know the source and destination so they can't censor.  
> **username_0**: @username_2 , Thank you. (1) when you say _"intermediary hops do **not** know the source and destination"_ , then how an intermediary node **is able** to find the best rout for a destination that they do **not** know? And (2) some approaches such as (https://bitfury.com/content/downloads/whitepaper_flare_an_approach_to_routing_in_lightning_network_7_7_2016.pdf) are based on **routers** and **routing tables**. Thank you if you could clarify.  
> **username_2**: The intermediary hops don't make routing decisions at all. The source does all of the routing itself in advance. Onion routing is used, roughly similar to Tor. Then again, LN could work with basically any imaginable routing protocol, as all it takes is a bunch of peer to peer nodes that speak a common language. Many further improvements are certainly being worked on.  
> **username_0**: @Janne , Thank you, Could you please propose me a document explaining in detail (step by step) the **current routing approach** used in LN ? Thanks very much.  
> **username_2**: Probably the BOLT specs. A new version came out just a few weeks ago. Probably on https://lightning.network/ somewhere. Or this older series: https://medium.com/@rusty_lightning/the-bitcoin-lightning-spec-part-1-8-a7720fb1b4da  

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