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C54: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread (Read 106937 times)
Stefan Buecker
Re: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
gewgaw wrote on 07/14/09 at 15:02:30:
You even analysed my line and tried to improve the white side:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. cxd4 Bb4+ 7. Nbd2 Bxd2+ 8. Bxd2 Nxe4 9. d5 Ne7 10. Bb4 d6 11.O-O O-O 12. Re1 a5 13. Ba3 Nc5 14. Qd2 Na4!? (you tried 14. ...b6) 15. Rac1 Nb6 ~= and again black goes for bishophunting and equalizes at least.
It seems you have a preference for the move b7-b6, very often you suggest this move for black, which weakens black´s structure. I assume you wanna give us some room to find improvements.
Your 14...Na4! is quite convincing, at least I can't refute it. Maybe you are right and Black should rather avoid b7-b6 - to be able to attack pawn d5 by means of c7-c6. Since Black seems to do well here, I am now inclined to like 10.Be3 even more.
For the case that a chronical 1.b3 player is visiting this page, we are talking about: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.0-0 Nxe4 6.Re1 d5 7.Bxd5 Qxd5 8.Nc3.
MNb wrote on 07/14/09 at 20:39:41:
For the moment we seem to disagree about 5...Nxe4/8...Qd8/11.Rf4 which you rated as slightly better for White. I am not impressed. And you were not a nice guy for pointing out 11.Bh6 Kf8!
Lev Gutman's (it was his article) assessment was that (8...Qd8 9.Rxe4+ Be7 10.Nxd4 f5) 11.Rf4 is slightly better for White (yes, 11.Bh6 Kf8! is a pity - not my fault, it was Gutman's idea)... hmm, I admit that a well-prepared Black player can probably hold that ending. In this sense you are right to be unimpressed. But are you not too perfectionistic? To have a slightly better ending is quite normal. Even more important is what SWJediknight writes. For every 8...Qd8 game that you'll face with White, you'll get four games with 8...Qh5 and ten(!) games with 8...Qa5 (says MegaBase 2008). Under these circumstances, should you worry about 8...Qd8 being only +0.15?
In Kais. 34 (mailed today) part I of Gutman's article on 7.Nc3!? (Canal Variation) appears. Again you'll say that this doesn't give White an edge, and from the perspective of "objective theory" you would be right. Nevertheless it contains many opportunities to go wrong and doubles Black's preparation work. Later I intend to write a third article on 8...Qa5 and 8...Qh5, a kind of surprise weapon. In my opinion Black's task to prepare for one of these systems is manageable, but if there are various white set-ups to be prepared for, the situation becomes much more unpleasant for Black.
SWJediknight
Alert... opponent out
of book!
My main issue with 5...Nxe4 has always been 8...Qh5 9.Nxe4 Be6 10.Bg5 Bd6, though it is possible that the recent 11.Nxd6+ cxd6 12.Bf4 Qd5 13.Ng5 0-0 14.Ne4 might be a way to generate interesting and equal play. I haven't looked much into 8...Qd8. But at club level few players get that far and most who do go 8...Qa5 anyway, when White can force interesting and equal play with 9.Nxe4 Be6 10.Neg5.
Btw I also think the Scotch/Goring Gambit line 5.c3 dxc3 6.Nxc3!? has been underestimated for White and may not be inferior to 6.Bxf7+. Acers and Laven in their Italian Gambit System gave some promising tries for White there.
Re. Stefan Bucker's line, nobody has yet provided a rebuttal to the 10.Be3!?.
Rudolf Spielmann forever
Location: Moengo
You are absolutely right. As you probably already know I find the question "can we build a repertoire in old-fashioned style around the Italian and its relatives?" very intriguing. And like you I haven't played most of the stuff myself. I have only experience with 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 and that is a long time ago.
Btw I think 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 Bc5 5.c3 dxc3 6.Nxc3 not inferior to 6.Bxf7+. I think White can prove full compensation with chances of more.
Later edit in answer to JDKnight: hadn't we solved 8...Qh5 ? Not in terms of advantage, but in terms of dynamic play? I am thinking of Yuksel-Yargici, Antalya 2007 and Chan Yi Ren-Hasenohr, Vung Tau City 2008. O wait, the latter is exactly the line you propose.
« Last Edit: 07/14/09 at 22:34:21 by MNb »
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
MNb, obviously you know more about these classical systems than I do. Thanks for the hints. Since Gutman's articles on the Max Lange stuff I got interested in the eternal quest (as thousands of players before me) to find the best move-order to reach a Max Lange Attack. Probably I'll never play a MLA myself - black MLA players are a rare species -, but to find new ideas in classical systems has a charm of its own ("How on earth could Steinitz overlook that? R... sees it in a second!"). And before you ask: no, I don't fear 5...Nxe4 in the Two Knights.
Reply #9 - 07/14/09 at 15:31:04
Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/14/09 at 06:10:17:
@Matemax: The position after 6...Bb4+ can also be reached after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4, which is of interest for those who hope for a Max Lange Attack after 4...Nf6 5.0-0 Bc5 (5...Nxe4 is more popular) 6.e5. In the case of 4...Bc5 5.c3 Nf6 (5...dxc3? 6.Bxf7+) 6.cxd4 Bb4+ we are back in the old Italian Game, when the move of the competition is 7.Nbd2. In this move-order also 4...Bb4+ has to be considered, but that's not necessarily better than the alternatives (instead of a Goering Gambit 5.c3, which results in equality, I'd prefer 5.Bd2).
Alas this is not part of the competition as I have done some analysis in the past on 4...Bb4+ 5.c3 dxc3 6.0-0 (not a Göring Gambit) and 6.bxc3 (neither, though both are obviously closely related).
By the way 4...Bc5 5.c3 dxc3 does not deserve a question-mark as White's advantage after 6.Bxf7+ is far from proven. See Müller/Vogt's excellent Danish Dynamite.
Taking your argument one step further, White may also opt for 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 and now either 3.Bc4 or 3.Nf3. White avoids the Petrov but is willing to play the Urussov (Nf6 4.Nf3 or 4.Bc4).
gewgaw
I love ChessPublishing.com!
hi Mr. Bücker,
first of all thxs for revising my nomination, now it looks far more professional. You even analysed my line and tried to improve the white side:
The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
For comparison, the diagram after 29.Bc1 may be of interest:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.cxd4 Bb4+ 7.Nbd2! Bxd2+ 8.Bxd2 Nxe4 9.d5 Ne7
The move nominated by gewgaw, (10.Bb4 d6 11.0-0 0-0 12.Re1) 12...a5!?, could be a good idea. Analyzing gewgaw's lines, one begins to wonder why White ever wanted his bishop on b4. Okay, he was only "parking" it there, until the Ne4 would have gone away, to return later to the a1-h8 diagonal. But gewgaw's analysis indicates that the placement of the bishop on b4 may face problems. - How about the following:
10.Be3!? (instead of 10.Bb4), for example: 10...Nd6 11.Bb3 Nef5 (hunting that bishop again) 12.Bf4 Qe7+ 13.Kf1 (I love that Krakov Variation!) 13...0-0 14.Bc2 b6 15.Qd3 g6 16.Re1 Qf6 17.Be5 Qd8 18.h4 h5 19.Rh3 Re8 20.Qd2 a5 21.Kg1 Bb7 22. Kh2 Qe7 23.Bf4 Qf6 24.Ne5 Qd8 25.Bg5 f6 26.Nxg6 Rxe1 27.Qxe1 Qe8 28.Qb1 Qxg6 29.Bc1 Qg4 30.f3 Qd4 31.Bxf5 Kh8 32.Bh7! Bxd5 33.Qg6 Be6 34.Bh6! Nf5 35.Rg3 Qxh4+ 36.Rh3 Qd4 37.Qxh5 +-.
@Matemax: The position after 6...Bb4+ can also be reached after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4, which is of interest for those who hope for a Max Lange Attack after 4...Nf6 5.0-0 Bc5 (5...Nxe4 is more popular) 6.e5. In the case of 4...Bc5 5.c3 Nf6 (5...dxc3? 6.Bxf7+) 6.cxd4 Bb4+ we are back in the old Italian Game, when the move of the competition is 7.Nbd2. In this move-order also 4...Bb4+ has to be considered, but that's not necessarily better than the alternatives (instead of a Goering Gambit 5.c3, which results in equality, I'd prefer 5.Bd2). A more usual Max Lange move order is 3.Bc4 Bc5 and only now 4.d4, but while I believe that the Max Lange Attack is advantageous for White (+= in my analyses), I don't think that the Max Lange Gambit 4...Bxd4 5.Nxd4 Nxd4 6.Bg5 etc. gives White more than compensation. (Yes, I know the new Dzindzi DVD idea Rg8, and no, it certainly isn't advantageous for Black.)
Back to the Italian Game. I fully agree with you that the classical 7.Bd2 Bxd2+ 8.Nbxd2 d5 9.exd5 Nxd5 10.Qb3 also deserves attention. If you leaf through pre-1900 chess magazines, there are so many fascinating analyses on this position, with all the big names... I had thought that 10...Na5 11.Qa4+ Nc6 (Tarrasch) was = (I even checked the latest analysis in the subscriber section!), but had never looked at 12.Qa3!?. The reply 12...Qe7+ could give White a slight advantage in the ending. More ambitious seems 12...Ndb4 13.Qb3 0-0 14.a3 Na6 15.Qc3 Re8+ 16.Ne5 Nxe5 17.dxe5 Qg5 18.Nf3 Qf4 19.0-0 Bg4, about =, but in this line there are many loose ends.
JEH
"Football is like Chess,
only without the dice."
Matemax wrote on 07/13/09 at 14:52:51:
The reason is that after 10...Na5 11.Qa4 Nc6 White has an interesting possibility in 12.Qa3 and doesn't need to repeat moves.
What's interesting after 12. ...Qe7+
Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations
Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
don´t hate me, but I just sent an equalizer line.
« Last Edit: 07/13/09 at 18:46:12 by gewgaw »
Matemax
Chesspub gives you strength!
Congratulations to a very interesting choice for the second run!
This may as well be one of the crucial positions for 1.e4 e5: After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 (2-knights-game) Black seems to be under pressure with the "refutation" move 4.Ng5 at the moment (at least concerning Nakamura's approach and very bad times for the Traxler recently). Therefore Black is safer to play 3...Bc5 when White may play the Evans or continue with the given move order: 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 ed4 6.cd4 Bb4
Now apart from the starting point of the analyses - 7.Nbd2 - I also think that 7.Bd2 Bd2 8.Nbd2 d5 9.ed5 Nd5 10.Qb3 gives Black some slight headache. The reason is that after 10...Na5 11.Qa4 Nc6 White has an interesting possibility in 12.Qa3 and doesn't need to repeat moves. On the other hand Black may go 10...Nce7 11.0-0 with a slightly passive position.
Perhaps I should explain my mysterious hint in another thread, that the new topic would be mainly based on pre-WWII analyses. I had originally intended that this new competition should include both 7. Kf1 (Krakov Variation) and 7.Nbd2 (Pomtow). The pre-WWII remark refers to the corr. tournament held in Krakov (Poland) in 1909, where 7.Kf1 earned its name. Only later I thought that the Pomtow Attack 7.Nbd2 was complicated enough for the new competition, and so I decided to drop 7.Kf1.
This doesn't mean that 7.Kf1 had a defect or something. With best play, Black only equalizes, and there are several risky side-lines into which he may fall. - When I compare the "value" of the classical moves 7.Nc3 and 7.Bd2 on the one side, played in approximately 5800 games in the database, and the two "dark twins" 7.Kf1 and 7.Nbd2 on the other side, with less than 80 databased games, I see more chances for White on the underdog side. Yes, Möller's Attack was a phantastic concept, and in ECO Unzicker was so fond of 7.Bd2 (two main lines were +=, only in Rossolimo - Unzicker, 1949, Black was able to equalize)! But today most Black players know what to do against 7.Nc3 and 7.Bd2. Which makes both 7.Kf1 and 7.Nbd2 quite attractive, at least for the moment.
GMTonyKosten
Mr Dynamic?
Location: Clermont-Ferrand
C54: Kaissiber Competition Chat Thread
Opinions, Chat, Analysis, Refutations etc.
« Last Edit: 07/17/11 at 03:17:04 by Smyslov_Fan »
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