robbo277 wrote: Yes, Ireland were blocking May, but they did it quite subtly. There probably was a penalty incident in the same play, but it was much more subtly done and less reckless to boot.
There wasn't anything subtle about it and all teams do it, it's something refs need to clamp down on all round, no doubt there were English players blocking their Irish counterparts too.
I actually disagree. There's a fine line between blocking and not moving out the way. Not moving out the way is allowed, you're allowed to occupy your space. If you can subtly tread the line between the two, you become harder to penalise. "Not clear and obvious", to use common parlance. You might see it, but the referee, with everything he has to watch out there, might not. And unless a player goes sprawling too the floor, the slightest change in someone's running line forcing someone else to take a wider arc isn't going to get picked up every time.
I mean I am bothered about it but maybe less so given it is RWC year and the fact we won the GS last year.
The manner of the defeat does worry me a little as we did seem to lose composure in a way we haven't in a long time. Maybe winning so much leaves an element of complacency and we just assumed we'd peg them back?
You don't become a bad team overnight but we have seen before that when a team that has been on a run loses all of a sudden that aura of invincibility can evaporate.
At what stage did Ireland lose their composure rodders? I thought that the lads played well but were just outplayed, simple as that.
Well the obvious one was giving away the intercept but there were other examples were we just forced the play when it wasn't on particularly in our own half.
There were examples all over the park where just the decision making and clarity we're used to seeing from Ireland was just a bit off, which was due to the pressure England put on them but we've seen this side deal with incredible pressure before. so in that sense the performance was disappointing.
Suggesting that if Ringrose pulls the ball back to Sexton he can engineer a 2 on 1 against Nowell. However it seems that maybe Ringrose sees the onrushing Manuy and takes the ball into contact, subsequently knocking on.
2 minutes later and England have their 3rd try.
England made 48 dominant tackles compared with 8 by Ireland. A dominant tackle is: "Where the defender stops the ball carrier on impact and/or drives him backwards"
This is where I thought we would miss Underhill but the whole pack stood up and won that physical battle.
Those stats will win you 99% of games IMO. Would be hard to consistently back up though.
Agreed. It was a failure on Ireland's part not to adapt when it became clear that sticking with the phase play of one out runners wasn't working. Huge credit has to go to England, because when they turn up, as I said earlier, I don't think any team can deal with their physicality bar SA and NZ, but you have to be able to do something else to change the game when it's so clearly one-sided in the tackle/gainline area.
I feel like the kicking game was/is still Ireland's main response to that, but England's catchers (and blockers) were so well drilled, and Murray and Ireland's chases so sluggish, they couldn't get any sort of quick ball and territory from it. I'd expect Schmidt to have a broader 'playbook' come the RWC for Ireland to employ.
LordDowlais wrote: Oh well, you'll be favourites for the world cup next.
All good hype and mind games from down under but it does kind of underpin my thinking on the game. I don't think Ireland were in any way cocky or believing the media hype, they were well prepared and in good shape mentally and physically. Quality team. They just ran in to a juggernaut firing on all cylinders from the fist minute. I dread saying this but I am going to, I don't think any team in world rugby, home or away could have dealt with England on Saturday. There's the rub, to maintain that level will be impossible. Another team will work out a way of negating the rush defence, more effectively close down England when they are in attack and England will be forced to change plan on field, a feat they have not proved to be particularly adept at in the recent past.
In conclusion, Ireland are a very good team and didn't play badly on Saturday. England could quite easily lose to France, Wales or Scotland this 6N. Any team can have its day as England did on Saturday, where most things tried come off. If England continue to improve though, they like Ireland and the ABs can win big matches when everything doesn't go to plan and they are perhaps on their B game, but that's a way off yet.
Has to be said that many of the things England tried actually came off. That Slade interception, most of the time the guy would have fumbled the ball. Same with the pass from Daly to May for May's try. A more typical England display would have seen May drop the ball.
And that's the magic thing isn't it. Consistency. For many years Ireland could put up a massive performance, then a week later be absolute pish.
Now some of that was lack of depth, we couldn't cope with the injuries we would pick up due to the blood and thunder performance. Some I feel was all mental, we just couldn't mentally put up back to back games,bit took too much of our mental energy for just one game.
Now recently that has changed, we have the depth (in nearly all positions) and we have found the right mental fortitude as well.
So I'm expecting a performance this weekend.
Has to be said that many of the things England tried actually came off.
Interesting view. I haven't seen any reports of the team being "monstered" in training this year with only Clifford coming home injured (head knock I believe). Or does this show a change in mind set from Eddie that has then allowed the team to be fitter but less battered so willing to have a go? And from that, growing confidence? Or just a perfect storm on Saturday & it will all go Boobies Up on Sunday?
Good breakdown. Dont recall seeing that.
If England continue to improve though, they like Ireland and the ABs can win big matches when everything doesn't go to plan and they are perhaps on their B game, but that's a way off yet.
I don't think it's as far off as all that. If you look at the AIs, England squeezed out a win against South Africa when things definitely didn't go to plan, and were the length of a boot away from beating New Zealand with a two-thirds strength team. The results got overshadowed by Ireland's epic performance - but England have been doing quite a lot right since the coaching reshuffle after the 6 Nations. Even on tour to South Africa a lot of the fundamentals were right, but their preparation for altitude was disastrously wrong... Since all the stadia in Japan are basically on the coastal plain, I don't see that as a concern.
LondonTiger wrote: Wales should still be favourites for the match in Cardiff in 3 weeks.
Maybe but not based on the weekends performances anyway.
In the last 5 years we have played Wales 7 times (including twice at Cardiff) and lost once. Now that loss was very embarrassing and was when we were not in a good place at all. Now there is still a lot of rugby between now and when we make our next trip across the Severn, and we don't know how much injuries will impact both teams before then. But I don't fear Wales. Any team can find a real fire on the day, and maybe they can get Steve Walsh out of retirement, but beyond the 'never give up'attitude which they have in spades, the only threat that really concerns me is Liam Williams.
It is always going to be a tough tough game, but just don't think that Wales have the game or the game breaking talents to beat us.
Oh here we go. It didn't take long did it ?
England put in their first decent performance in ages, and now they are unbeatable and the only threat Wales has is their full back. I hope England come to Cardiff with this mindset.
Now it is worth saying that most of those games were won by less than a score, but they were often more comfortable than the score suggests.
Overreact maybe, but notice how you're still blaming the ref? Why is it that when Wales play any opposition that a bunch of English barge into the thread and start ref-blaming on our opponents behalf?
I've noticed a fair bit of ref-blaming from you lot in here too, despite the fact you won. Strange.
Lol why would you complain about that when I alluded to facts? The evidence is right there in this thread and the France vs Wales thread. Even stranger.
Just saw Opta post that Mako and Wilson both made 27 tackles, thats an Englisn 6Ns record.
Also not sure if its been mentioned but EJ says Itoje may have a medial ligament injury. Awaiting scans.
I wish. "A guy posts facts when the evidence is right there slapping me across the face. He must be drunk, censor that drunk barsteward before he starts a revolution." Englishman, 2019.
Lets be honest this game will go down as one of the best game in the 6ns history.
England do not score many try's in Dublin. To score 4 against the reigning Grand Slam winners, winners against the All Blacks twice.
No matter what happens in the rest of the tournament. I very much doubt we will see another game like we did on Saturday.
What is it with mentioning Steve Walsh that gets Mikey upset? Everything else is either factual or, in the case of how I feel about Wales as a threat my personal opinion. and why are we wandering so far off topic?
majesticimperialman wrote: Lets be honest this game will go down as one of the best game in the 6ns history.
Yes. Despite the overall wondefullness of the 6N there have been a lot of boring games over the years. Not this weekend. Not at all.
Just a touch over the top madge. Well rather a lot actually.
LondonTiger wrote: Just a touch over the top madge. Well rather a lot actually.
Really? Did you wxpect to see a game played liked that?
England dominating Ireland ( ALL THROUGH ) the game?
Because i certainly did not expect that type of game. From Either team.
That England played well, sure, but they have played better. To be one of the best games in 6Ns history both teams have to play really well.
LT. do you not think that scoring 4 tries against Grand Slam winner for the first time in years. is not a great game? Away from Twickers that is.
Plenty of opportunities for chips ahead is the consensus on Against the head on RTE.
I think it was a good performance from one of the teams. Probably the best by England since 2003 in Dublin, as stated by collapse earlier.
If you had suggested it was one of the best performances by a team in 6Ns I would have considered the proposal.
Just not calling it one of the best games ever. For me to consider it that both teams would have had to play near their best in a titanic struggle. NZ and SA had such a game last summer and right to the end the result was in in doubt.
LondonTiger wrote: I think it was a good performance from one of the teams. Probably the best by England since 2003 in Dublin, as stated by collapse earlier.
I don't think we were as dominant as some pundits are making out. One reason Ireland didn't throw caution to the wind earlier, is that they still felt they were in it at 13-17, with around 20 minutes to go. I certainly thought they were still capable of coming back, and was a bit worried we were down to only one specialist lock. Henry Slade's first try, which was a real turning point, started with a scrum when Ireland knocked on after they'd made quite a lot of ground.
We've played plenty of high quality games since 2003. The 2007 World Cup QF win over Australia, two 2010 wins over Australia & three 2016 wins over Australia come to mind. That's a big helping of Wallabies but I'd also take the 2012 win over New Zealand, 2017 demolition of Scotland, and even the bizarro 55-35 win over France in 2015.
Times journalists have all been very critical of Eddie Jones - which they acknowledged on the Ruck Podcast - so it was interesting to hear them give him credit. Stuart Barnes still thinks we shouldn't get ahead of ourseves, and need to see how the team goes against France, who present a different kind of challenge. However, Barnes praised Jones for sticking with Daly at full back, since many (including him) had called for change. Owen Slot demurred a little, saying that Ireland didn't really test him under the high ball.
I think it's fair to say Ireland are a pretty limited side. And England limited their already limited style perfectly. It was one of the few 6Ns games I've managed to keep my eyes open for the 80 without using toothpicks so I guess it could be classed as one for the ages. It wasn't exactly riddled with quality skills and dazzling play though. Just grind and a couple of moments of nice play from England that made the difference. The stakes were high and Ireland choked as they're wont to do.
None of the games you mention were in Dublin, which was the comparison I had used..... our best performance in Dublin since 2003, not our best performance since 2003.
Now that Ireland have been hyped up beyond recognition and sweeped the WR awards it's probably only right that teams now give them the respect they deserve. Will be interesting to see how Ireland go given they're talked up as favourites in every game now.
ebop wrote: I think it's fair to say Ireland are a pretty limited side. And England limited their already limited style perfectly. It was one of the few 6Ns games I've managed to keep my eyes open for the 80 without using toothpicks so I guess it could be classed as one for the ages. It wasn't exactly riddled with quality skills and dazzling play though. Just grind and a couple of moments of nice play from England that made the difference. The stakes were high and Ireland choked as they're wont to do.
It must hurt to be defeated, twice, by a limited side and an even more limited side ranked 7th in the world (South Africa). Lol.
I think England's win was built around Mako Vunapola so not surprised at all he was man of the match. Id imagine a large percentage of England's "dominant" tackles were his and he had his fair share of positive carries too. The England backs did a good job of converting the forwards pressure.
I don't think that's fair to say at all, on several counts. Ireland have a gameplan based on pressure, but that doesn't make them a limited side; they had the best record of any team in 2018, with a winning record against eight of the top 10 teams in the rankings. That's a funny kind of limited. It's also a funny kind of choking. While you could level that accusation at Ireland of old, it hasn't been true for some time.
As to the skill levels on display, perhaps you missed England's opening try. It happened quote quickly and you may have dozed off for a microsleep. But even if you didn't, there's more to "skill" than just dazzling handling. The defensive display that England put on over the whole 80 minutes was a skill - and a difficult one, very well executed - in its own right.
I honestly think that if the colour of the jerseys had been black instead of white, you would be far more generous with your praise.
To be fair, Ireland were clueless against a pretty boring defensive-minded team like England. It was a battle between two boring sides and Ireland managed to out-boring England for the L. Ireland with the wrap-arounds, box kicks, side-to-side stuff, boring grind and a shoveller for a first five had nothing. Nada.
LondonTiger wrote: That England played well, sure, but they have played better. To be one of the best games in 6Ns history both teams have to play really well.
The Wales V Scotland game at Cardiff, in I think, 2011 would be ranked a lot higher in my opinion. the one where Shane Williams won the game in injury time.
Anyone wondering if Schmidt has checked out? It's early days but another loss in the 6Ns and surely the question will be asked.
It will play a part I'm sure, the players will try their hardest but will also be looking at Farrell more. Still a strange appointment in my opinion.
A player like Shane wouldn't become a pro these days, very few academy's would consider taking on such a small player. Harsh days to be a talented small lad.
There will always be a few of course, but in general academy's prefer putting their time into physically big and strong lads. Not saying small lads won't still come through the systems but their opportunities to develop will be few and far between, which is sad.
I'd suggest it was better given that this Ireland side was considerably better than in 2003.
OK there was less at stake given it was the first game up but despite some trying and suggest this was an overrated Ireland side, their record speaks for itself and we had won 2 out of the last 3.... not to mention the form of the players for the provinces coming in didn't show any sort of decline after the success of last season.
It must really hurt you knowing that without the money from the far inferior NH, rugby down your way would disappear. All this talk about a league of nations is pretty much just a begging letter from you guys.
England went into this weekend as underdogs with few expecting them to thrive. They put in a strong physical performance to shock a very good Irish side.
However back in 2003 England the pressure was enormous, a GS chance, the last that team would have before the rebuilding started. In the last four seasons they had lost just once each year, three of them in the final weekend, and arguably choked. The most recent of those was 18 months previously to an Irish team that was just as unfancied as the 2003 one. This pressure I feel outweighs the difference in abilities between the two different Ireland teams.
Then we get to the performance where they met the Irish fury full on, before putting them to the sword in a dominant all court display. Perhaps the most content Ihave been watching England.
Was it any more boring than you?
We did have a decent side in 2003, I think we were also going for a slam and that was the last game in Lansdowne but you are right this years crop are definitely better IMO.
Yes we did, you are right and I recall we fancied our chances a bit then also but I suppose the difference is at that point we were a side that hadn't won anything, even the triple crown didn't come to 2004.
This side had come off the back of 18 months of winning everything in front of them and were pretty heavy favorites, so England really had to work for their win last weekend whereas in 2003 there was a maybe bit of us capitulating in the big occasion against a more experienced England side.
There is a hell of a lot more skill involved in rugby other that dazzling play. An attacking defence is a very hard skill to train into a team. I honestly do not see Ireland or England as being limited.
Take the England performance on Saturday, not only did they play attacking rugby but were also excellent in defence. Their attacking defensive line put Ireland under so much pressure that mistakes were made as a result, that is not limited, that is a skill.
Its all about balance and England looked incredibly balanced in all aspects of the game on Saturday and were deserved winners. As I stated before, I do not believe that Ireland were that bad just that England were better.
For me, it was an excellent game and as much as I hate seeing Ireland lose, I admired the performance from England in beating Ireland. Its why I love rugby above all other sports.
I agree eirebilly, why would people chose to watch Football?
Rugby is a superior sport by far.
As for this world league bol locks, I'm out.