by ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:11 pm
Lallana in Pyjamas » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:49 pm wrote:
Ghost of Shankly » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:56 pm wrote: I think the point yakka was making is that Hendo, and Milner over the course of the season are not going to win you a title or champions league.
They have zero creativity. If you look back to the CL final in May. When Salah went off injured, Hendo and Milner did bugger all to create any decent chances, so we were doomed.
I wanted to see them phased out this season and replaced by Fabinho.
Hate to disappoint you but they won't be phased out and they weren't the reason why we didn't win the CL last season - it's lazy typical stereotype to point fingers at them and say they have zero creativity- when it's clearly false. But then you are the guy suggesting we go 4-4-2
If they aren't phased out we won't win the league it's as simple as that. We finished 4th last year not second, we were 25 points behind City. We are not going to bridge a gap like that by basically playing the same players.
by Ghost of Shankly » Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:20 pm
Hate to disappoint you but they won't be phased out and they weren't the reason why we didn't win the CL last season -
Erm.... How many chances did Milner and Hendo create in the CL final!??
I bet you thought Karius was going to get a starring role this season also? ! Look what happened...
Trust me, Klopp will weed out the dead wood in the squad.
by Lallana in Pyjamas » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:51 am
ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:11 pm wrote:
Still struggling aren't you
We clearly aren't playing with the same team
Look at last years table and especially before jan 1st - there was a very clear difference between Liverpool and City - as a clue it wasn't goals scored , we let in over double the amount of goals that City and Utd and Spurs did up until VVD arrived - I believe it was 13 points dropp d due to letting in too many goals and defensive errors which obviously made a massive difference. Then VVD arrived and I believe it made our backline far stronger but still the odd mistake mainly from the man in the sticks and a lack of understanding at the back
Now onto this season - how many goals conceded - zero which equals zero points dropped so far
The difference between last season and this is night and day and suggesting going into the season with the same starting 11 again either shows a lack of understanding or you just haven't seen any games
The team is going into the season massively improved from last season because of the signings of Alisson and also VVD , Keita adds a different dimension, Fabinho once he is used to the system etc will also add and Shaqiri plus the resurgence of Sturridge just improves the squad
We are going to score goals - that's never an issue but we are also now going to be strong and organised at the back , we are not going to play free flowing attacking football ever game , at times we will need to grind away and players like Gini , Milner and Henderson are key in that battle. Both Gini and Milner were brilliant on Saturday - it's a shame that other teams fans and pundits etc can recognise that but some of our own fan base can't mainly through false preconceived ideas about them
We haven't earned the right to expect to play Brighton and not have to battle for the win and it's arrogance to expect that
To win the title we are going to have to battle at times , grind away to get a result as well as a bit of luck - we finally have a very balanced strong both physically and mentally Squad with a great chance to fight City and it includes the "plodders" as you so disrespectfully call them
by ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:52 am
We weren't 25 points behind City at Christmas though were we? So even when we signed Virgil they pulled away from us.
I don't think you realise how much we have to improve just to be in the mix never mind win the title, as I said we finished 4th last year not second and we were miles off the pace, 25 points is a ridiculous gap, that is going to take some serious bridging.
We haven't genuinely competed on two fronts since our 80's heyday either, when we won the CL in 2005 we finished 5th, when we got to the final again in 2007 we finished in the top 4 but we were 21 points behind eventual champions United, yes we have improved with Allison and Keita coming into the side (when Klopp leaves him on that is) but we needed to improve massively to genuinely challenge on two fronts, seeing the likes of Henderson, Wijnaldum and Milner still plodding around our midfield is not a good indicator that those massive improvements have happened.
Don't get carried away by our start, we were top at Christmas a couple of years ago after beating all our rivals but fell away during the run in, there's a long long way to go yet.
by Lallana in Pyjamas » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:43 am
ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:52 am wrote: We weren't 25 points behind City at Christmas though were we? So even when we signed Virgil they pulled away from us.
Again you still don't understand but I don't think you will - we improved massively once VVD arrived but still had a few issues and then started to suffer injuries , we also started to protect towards the end of the season because of the CL run and we were having players play two games a week and we were dropping silly points because the squad was clearly tired. We were third until the last two weeks but we dropped I believe it was 9 points in the last 5 games due to a lack of strength in depth - I think we were out of the top 4 until mid December as well so we didn't start that great. You only have to look at the season's results and see where our issues where and how many silly points where dropped due to letting in poor goals.
Again calling the midfielder plodders is disappointing and disrespectful to them - you only have to look at social media and see people talk about them to show that you couldn't be further from the truth about their ability and impact but I think it's clear I'm hitting an old brick wall , a brick wall who doesn't understand the manager or the system or the players
by ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:15 pm
Lallana in Pyjamas » Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:43 am wrote:
And again I don't think you quite grasp the improvement we need to make to genuinely challenge on 2 fronts, as I said we haven't done that since the mid 80's. We couldn't even genuinely challenge on two fronts when we had Gerrard, Alonso, Mascherano, Torres etc.
No one is denying that we have improved, what I am saying is that if Milner, Henderson and Wijnaldum are mainstays of our midfield again then imo we have not improved enough, no where near enough in fact.
A keeper plus Keita added to our starting XI since last January won't be enough, our midfield needed a massive overhaul and when we signed Keita, Fabinho and were being heavily linked with Fekir hopes were raised, looking at our first 3 games though our midfield looks very similar to last season. Keita is an improvement but imo our midfield needed a overhaul not a tweek.
by Lallana in Pyjamas » Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:04 pm
We didn't need an overhaul and the manager knows we didn't need an overhaul we needed it strengthen it hence why he went out and strengthened it - and Fekir wouldn't have played in the midfield , he is and always will be a forward mainly a wide one but one who goes into the centre and also the areas where Firmino goes but he had a knee that isn't going to last so we got a cheaper alternative. It's the same with people thinking Shaqiri should be in midfield but then you are stuck with a 4-2-3-1 formation in your head but that's not how Klopp works and it won't be
We didn't win anything with Gerrard , Masher etc because there was weak areas and not enough strength in depth - this team right now is better as a squad - it has better attacking options , better at the back and far more strength in depth
Milner , Henderson etc where good enough to challenge on one front , we needed depth to allow that to happen on two fronts - Klopp doesn't suffer fools , if he doesn't want a player they are gone - Gini , Henderson etc are still there because he wants them there and rates them for what they give to the team. But you won't ever see that because I don't think you will ever understand the way he sets up his team and wants them to play - I see you want to hark back to days of Rafa ( who ultimately bar the CL 05 fell short a number of times ) hence the liking for 4-2-3-1
Lallana in Pyjamas » Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:04 pm wrote: We didn't need an overhaul and the manager knows we didn't need an overhaul we needed it strengthen it hence why he went out and strengthened it - and Fekir wouldn't have played in the midfield , he is and always will be a forward mainly a wide one but one who goes into the centre and also the areas where Firmino goes but he had a knee that isn't going to last so we got a cheaper alternative. It's the same with people thinking Shaqiri should be in midfield but then you are stuck with a 4-2-3-1 formation in your head but that's not how Klopp works and it won't be
You keep on saying Klopp doesn't suffer fools gladly but he stuck by Mingolet and Karius for nearly 3 years!
ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:59 pm wrote:
Well he bought Karius because he rated him as a GK and when you look at his history and his physical attributes you can see why , Klopp was stuck with Mignolet because he had to wait until Karius was ready and he was looking at others priorities first because we don't have a unlimited pot . Until Karius had his breakdown in the CL final then he actually had a decent second half of the season but Klopp was still looking for a GK
Klopp couldn't just sell everyone and just buy a whole team when he arrived - he bought Gini , he has stuck with Henderson as a Captain and Milner won't go anywhere because of what he gives to any team he plays - it's quite clear he rates them and he seems to be getting it right more often than not.
There is multiple descriptions on social media about the way the team sets up and how crucial the middle three are - because of the way the full backs play as wingers, whilst you can't see it , and the way the front three play then the play of players like Gini and Henderson and Milner are key - I remember when people used to just call Xabi a crab because all he did was keep possession and pass it to a teammate, yet when he left everyone all mourned him going because they finally saw what he gave to the team.
The stats don't tell the whole story but they show how key they are - Gini gave the ball away once just once all game long , and Milner completed more passes in the opposition half than anyone else on both teams and that's on top of their relentless pressing - now you will dismiss those stats and call them plodders but that's the sort of stats people used to use to dismiss Xabi's impact. The is a reason why Milner and Gini are two of the fittest members of the team - because their roles demand it , they cover the whole pitch , they fill in everywhere and anywhere someone goes forward especially the two wide fullbacks - calling them midfield plodders shows a complete lack of knowledge of their role in the system that Klopp prefers , adding in Fabinho into the squad now gives him 4 players to play the role and all four are going to play a lot of minutes for the rest of the season and going to continue to be key, some will never appreciate their impact and it always be down to a lack of understand
Who are these people that criticised Alonso? He was a fan favourite, even when Benitez hinted at replacing him with Gareth Barry the crowd sang 'you can stick Gareth Barry up your @rse'
That long winded post still didn't explain why Klopp, a man who doesn't suffer fools gladly, stood by two poor goal keepers for 3 years. Ultimately they were proven to be not good enough for this club but for 3 years he thought they were. Maybe Klopp isn't as infallible as you seem to believe.
Don't get me wrong I like the man, I like any coach that is prepared to play attacking progressive football, I'm one of the few on here that liked Rodgers but packing the midfield with one paced plodders who clearly aren't good enough to win us the title is not the way forward for me.
Against the better sides you need more than what Milner et al bring to the table, last season Chamberlain came into the side and made a huge difference, he had pace, he could go past a man and he could strike a ball too, all the plodders do is chase around after the ball and hit percentage balls, there's very little genuine craft or guile there.
Anyway it's pointless continuing this conversation because we are just going around in circles, we play Spurs, Chelsea and City next month, that will give us a better indication of how good we really are.
by algymoon » Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:35 pm
A very nervous win, but the 3 points meant a lot.
algymoon
ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:28 pm wrote: Who are these people that criticised Alonso? He was a fan favourite, even when Benitez hinted at replacing him with Gareth Barry the crowd sang 'you can stick Gareth Barry up your @rse'
The fact you keep calling them one pace plodders shows you don't have a clue about them - you continually dismiss their impact dispite the stats and the analysis by a lot of football people and I think it's clearly through a lack of understanding of the manager and his system and tactics
To suggest that all they do is run around chasing the ball is disrespectful as well and ignorant but I should have stopped banging against the old wall a while back
by Ghost of Shankly » Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:46 pm
You two should get a hotel room
by redshade » Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:52 pm
algymoon » Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:35 pm wrote: A very nervous win, but the 3 points meant a lot.
Hey Algy good to see you mate where the heck have you been hiding.
Ghost of Shankly » Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:46 pm wrote: You two should get a hotel room
I guess it's because it seems hardly anyone posts here anymore - this used to rammed with posting about a decade ago , what happened.