Transition From The Class Of '92 Nears It's Conclusion....
Who Is The Greatest Re-Builder Of Them All ?
Sir Matt Busby
Arsene Wenger
Poll closed Nov 13, 2007 .
carlyluvsunited
Don't just click a vote - booooooring !!
These managers are alltime GREATS - they deserve better than a little 'click'.
Tell us all why you voted for them !!!
Transition from the class of '92 nears its conclusion, but is the jigsaw complete ?...
Perhaps Fergie's greatest achievement at Manchester United has been his ability
to create great new teams. All the very best managers down the years have had
this ability.
Yes there have been many, many great managers but not all of them have this 're
-building' ability !!
Paisley for instance with Liverpool won many trophies - but he inherits his team
and didn't really have much re-building to do. When his team did finally show
some cracks he left.
Matt Busby had it at United, he created three great sides. Busby was appointed
as manager of the club in 1945, the Reds had no ground due to Old Trafford
being bombed in the war. Home games were played at rivals Man City's Maine
Road, but like a phoenix rising from the ashes the Red Devils won the FA Cup in
1948 and then a after an incredible forty one year wait they secured the league
title in 1952.
Busby's second great team, the famous Busby Babes, won the league title in '56
and '57, but the heart of that side was ripped out in the Munich air disaster in
1958. So once again Busby had to go back to the drawing board and this time he
came up with the holy trinity of Bobby Charlton, Denis Law and 'the boy from
Belfast' Georgie Best to create arguably United's greatest ever side who finally
went on to lift the European Cup in style in 1968.
Bill Shankly at Liverpool had the ability to recreate greatness. Arsene Wenger has
done it with Arsenal. Brian Clough achieved greatness with a bunch of kids and
a few has-beens to patch it all together.
However, many Reds will now be thinking that Fergie could now be on the verge
of creating his third great team, some fans even say it could be his fourth,
because the historic treble-winning side of 1999 was a very different team to
that which helped secure the double-double in 1995-'96.
What isn't in doubt is the fact that the class of '92, who've been at the centre
core of the manager's first team for over a decade and includes current stars
such as Paul Scholes and Gary Neville are very much on the way out - you can
add the name of Ryan Giggs, but he has been an ever-present during Fergie's
reign at the club - which in itself is quite remarkable.
This ability to transform and recreate and at the same time keep on winning on
the pitch really is something special and perhaps only after Fergie spits out his
final piece of match-day chewing-gum and brings down the curtain on his time at
United will we the fans really appreciate what he's achieved at the club.
For the most part, Fergie's reign at United has been about evolution rather than
revolution, but back in the summer of '95 it was most definitely a case of
revolution with players such as massive fans favourites Paul Ince, Andre
Kanchelskis and Mark Hughes all being sold on.
News of the moves sent shockwaves round the football world. One Sunday
tabloid printed a graphic of a shattered light bulb and a fragmented club crest
together with the headline of 'Will the last one out turn out the lights'.
Personally, at the time I thought our glorious leader had really lost the plot.
But Fergie had a bold plan that centred on the likes of David Beckham, Paul
Scholes and the likes of the Neville Brothers and Nicky Butt. This group of players
had become known as 'Fergie's Fledglings' and it didn't start too well for them on
the opening day of the new season in '95-'96 when despite putting on a great
show they went on to lose 3-1 against Aston Villa. That season ended, like many
others under the stewardship of Fergie, in glory, as the Reds secured their
second league and cup double and in doing so, pundit Alan Hansen was made to
eat his words after he'd famously said 'you win nothing with kids'.
However, since the summer revolution of '95-96, by and large, it has been a case
of transition, this has largely been possible because Fergie has been able to rely
upon those former Fledglings while at the same time bringing in new players and
easing out those who were deemed surplus to requirements.
There has been controversial moves, perhaps none bigger than the sale of Japp
Stam to Lazio in '2001-'02. That particular transfer turned out to be an
unmitigated disaster and eventually cost United £30m to put right when they
acquired Rio Ferdinand.
Move forward to 'Red October' 2007 and Fergie's latest incarnation has scored
four goals in four games, which equals a club record that stretches back to '97-'9
8. Once again the critics who just a few weeks ago were asking questions about
the manager have been proven wrong as the Reds are now lording it over the
rest of the Premier League, if only until Arsenal face Liverpool later in the day.
So how good can this current team eventually be? That is question that will be
answered in the weeks ahead. Some will argue that United still need to add at
least two new players before the jigsaw is complete. A new striker must be in
Fergie's plans and maybe a new right-back too. Interestingly, yesterday the Reds
were linked with another Bayern Munich star in the form veteran defender Willie
Sagnol, that could be just newspaper talk, but United do need to find a long-term
replacement for Gary Neville.
What looks to be beyond doubt is that the manager has bought well over the
summer with the likes of Tevez, Anderson, Nani and Hargreaves all looking like
United players who will help to ensure that the best attacking traditions of
United are guaranteed for the future while the transition from the class of '92
comes to its glorious conclusion.
I added a poll for people to vote on who they think is the greates manager with the 're-building' ability - who do you think ?
Maybe I surprise many people - but I make vote for Brian Clough !!!
Yes sorry.
I read his book.....Cloughie......
And......
This guy was unique !!
He won it all and he ruled Forest with a rod of steel. Nobody dare answer him
back and yet he had utmost respect from his players - they absolutely loved him.
He made his team with maybe £2 million pounds too.
Just a bunch of young kids all held together with some old men who nobody else
wanted - he not only built a great team - he did it with no money and with very
poor resource !!!!!
They'll never see the likes of him again !!!!!!
(PS....if the FA were a little bit brave they would have won 2 world cups with this
man too !!!!!!!!!!)
Feel free to vote.......and maybe explain why you make your choice......
Im going to go for Sir Matt. After having nearly died in the Munich Air Disaster and having lost the heart of his team, he did the best rebuilding job to finally win the European Cup in 1968 in Wembley. What he did was nothing short of miraculous. The attacking brand of football he played could only but be admired.He gets my vote but its tough to choose between all those managers. They all overcame the odds and they all rebuilt great teams. Id give second to Fergie, then Cloughie, Wenger and Shanks.
Keano's fan
Sir Matt. For many reasons.
As if being an ex City and Liverpool player wasnt enough, Sir Matt was 36 with no experience whatsoever. He accepted the challange of coaching United (A club that was in turmoil at the time). Not only did he want to win things, he wanted to change the image of football played by the club. He didnt want to just win (although he was a born winner), he wanted to thrill and entertain at the same time. Free flowing attacking football was unthinkable at the time but Busby took up the challange of installing it into his team.
He won the '48 FA cup with a side that he built. It took him 3 years , in which he created a scouting system and a new policy regarding youth development, to build a winning side out of scratch (something most managers cant do even when they spend millions, just ask Rafa). That team went on to win the league in '52 with flair and skill never seen before.
With the youth development scheme installed, Busby had the likes of Charlton, Edwards and Viollet to inject into the first team. He rebuilt his team again, using players he picked at a young age and installed his ideas of attacking football in. That team went on to win back to back titles in '56 and '57.
Then there was the plane crash. Sir Matt was fighting for his life for weeks, he doubted that he had the desire to carry on. Most of his babes died or got seriously affected by the crash. The team he had worked hard to build for years is now gone. Any person would have found it easy to give up. Not our Busby.
He combined the young talents he still had at the club, the likes of Best and Kidd, with signings like Law and Crerand that believed in his philosiphy in football. That team went on to win league titles, FA cups and the first european cup in english football history.
A legend is an understatement for the guy. Matt Busby was the father of football. I thought Id end this with a quote from one of his players, the late George Best : "He was the most incredible human being I ever met. When he met my father after about three years he remembered what he drank, the names of the kids, and that wasn't just because he was my father, He was like that with everyone"
Fantastic post Keano's fan. Id give you reputation if it would let me.
Cheers mate. Top Man.
Yes very nice post Mr Keane
I voted for Cloughie but to be honest I would feel happy to vote for Busby and Fergie too - all 3 were greats of course. Feel like changing my vote after reading your post Grrrrrrrr......
I'll check with boss man about these rep points too ok.....Jazz and a few others have mentioned it - I didn't think anyone bothered about it - but if people do like to use this we try to make it better for you all xx
Cheers Carly.
An interesting note, Sir Matt had the biggest influence on liverpools team of the the 70s and the 80s. Shankly said in one than more occasion that he had alot of help from Busby, from reccomending players to tipping him to new training techniques , etc. Sir Matt was the one that chose Fergie as well and he was a mentor to him in his early years.
But Im happy with the 5 managers you named. Paisly aside, those are the 5 greatest managers to ever manage in england IMO. Gary Megson is running them close though.
In answer to the question, Sir Matt. He took over United, a bombed out ground, no players, and in 3 years built a cup winning side. He then built another team which became the precursor of the famous babes which had been growing in Sir Matt's mind since day one of his reign.
After near death in the Munich crash, he came back and built another team which won the cup in 1963, a 5 year rebuild. He then adjusted it with imports including George Best and won the league in 65 and 67. 2 year and 3 year gap and then it all culminated in the crowning glory, the European cup of 68, Englands first ever Euro Cup.
But, the team lost some heart after that been there - done it - got the T Shirt, and Matt tried to keep the team going for another win in Europe but a bent referee put paid to that in the semi final of 69. The team never recovered and, instead of building a new one, it slid into oblivion, ending up getting relegated in 74.
Successive managers tried, and failed, to rebuild a team still under the massive shadow of the master builder, Matt Busby.
Fergie did not have to build from scratch, having inherited quite a few good players that Ron Atkinson had moulded into a good cup side and was improving in the league.
It took Fergie 6 years to win something, and then the class of 92 began to filter into the team and the rest, as they say, is history. Fergie has "rebuilt" four teams at United but all of them had the nucleus of the class of 92.
A small wondering about that era. From reading some of your posts I believe you can help me with this. I heard and read from some people who lived that era that sentimentality of Matt Busby hanging into the likes of Charlton, Law and Foulkes past their prime led to that decline. Do you agree with that ? And if you do what do you think about Giggsy getting a new contract ?
Sorry for going off topic btw
Discussion Starter · #10 · Oct 31, 2007
Keano's fan said:
Nice subject for another thread I am thinking Mr Keane
Maybe we leave this up to you ok x
(Some great posts in this thread too guys - thankyou x)
Sir Matt, not a lot more can be added to the class posts above.
Although i do think the original post was a bit one sided.
1 paragraph about Paisley.
2 paragraphs about Sir Matt
1 paragraphs about Shankley
11 paragraphs about SAF.
Quite a few lines about Clough.
1 line about Wenger.
And Keano's fan, Top words there my friend. You put into words, feelings, better than i could ever try to do. RESPECT.
Rep given
ron_aveiro
Sir Matt of course..he's the one who responsible for turning man utd from an average club into giants that we see and support today..
that plane crash which saw the potentially greatest footballer ever, Duncan Edwards, cruelly snatched away from this world along with several other babes..really a big loss not only for the club but also for the world..but still, he was able to rebuild the team from square one and became the most respected club in English football..
SALFORD RED said:
Very true Mr Sal........
But........
I'd rather blow torch the hairs off my legs rather than heap praises on Arse Wenger 4 days before the big bloody game
Ajant
Did you write that whole first post Carly?
Anyway, Sir Matt Busby for me, basically I could only echo Keano fan's wonderful post for the reasoning of my vote.
carlyluvsunited said:
On my way over in 40 minutes when i finish my shift. Will bring my gas bottle.
This is correct. There was too much sentimentality. Players were simply not performing, Best was doing his vanishing acts and others could not compete anymore. Giggs should be replaced; he no longer has the pace, only in short bursts, does not get 90% of his runs converted into crosses, and when he loses the ball, he stops - watch him!
Agreed. I still think he can do a job for us, his movement and how he puts in a killer pass could be vital for us. But I want to remember Giggs as the greatest left winger in the history of football, not a decent player who 14yr old kids slate when he doesnt perform.
Agreed. I still think he can do a job for us, his movement and how he puts in a
killer pass could be vital for us. But I want to remember Giggs as the greatest left
winger in the history of football, not a decent player who 14yr old kids slate
when he doesnt perform.
Fergie is to blame for this.
And.....
I am surprised with Mr Ferguson too !!
Not once with United has he shown even a little hint of sentimentality !!
Stam - problem - out !
Kanchelskis - problem - out !
RVN - problem - out !
Beckham - problem - out !
.............and the list goes on !
But.....
For some reason he seems to be clinging to Giigsy.
Only 3 members of the Class of '92 remain now - so maybe it's hard for him to let
go.........as people have said here - Giggs is past his best and it is not like we
have any shortage in midfield !!
Up until the contract extention , I didnt think Fergie was showing ny sentimentality at all. I mean Giggs was in the team of the season last year. He was absolutely brilliant. I dont know if its just a dip in form or if Giggsy lost it, but I felt Sir Alex couldve waited till the end of the season to decide.
It wont be the first time for Sir Alex though, I felt we held on Keano a year too long. Bryan Robson as well, although I would've hated it if Robbo was pushed out before winning a league title here.
Keano's fan Oct 31, 2007