Home Intangible Cultural Heritage Inventory - Avalon Boland, Mary. Interview about living in Logy Bay-Middle Cove-Outer Cove
Boland, Mary. Interview about living in Logy Bay-Middle Cove-Outer Cove
Interview with Mrs. Mary Boland April 2000
Martin: I'm Martin Boland and I'm interviewing my mother Mary. Today is the first of
April in the year 2000 and we're doing the interview ,at her home, and the weather today
is a lovely day. OK, so we'll do the first question now. And so Mom you can give your
full name and birth date.
Mary: Mary Frances Boland and I was born April 26, 1920.
Martin: And your parents' names?
Mary: Michael Hickey and Catherine Dyer and they were married in Nov 1904.
Martin: Where were they married?
Mary: They were man'ied in the Basilica now, 'twas the Cathedral then.
Martin: They were married in Town?
Mary: Well that was the parish then, see. We had no parish at that time. All of the Outer
Cove and Middle Cove people went to Torbay and all the Logy Bay people went to the
Basilica.
Martin: Oh yeah. So you lived down there.
Mary: I lived on the Rocky Hills,
Martin: Your house was located where?
Mary: Up on the Rocky Hills. Bert Hickey's house is there now. I wouldn't be able to
pick out the exact spot. If the wall was there, I'd be able to pick it out.
Martin: Bert's is not on the exact s ite?
Mary: No, it is more or less over by the yard, towards where the barn was, but more like
in the middle of the yard, from what I can see.
Martin: Now Dave's house is where the barn was, isn't it?
Mary: Yeah, it's a bit higher on the top of the slope, there was like a slope going down.
Uncle Jim had a cellar close to where Martin's house was, and where Dave's house is
now, Uncle Jim had a flake there. A fish flake.
Martin: Is that right?
Mary: Yeah.
Martin: Now Brian's house, that's where the cellar was, isn't it?
Mal1in: Now you were born in Outer Cove.
Mary: Yeah, I was born in the home. Mother, her aunt Mary was a midwife.
Martin: Who was that?
Mary: Aunt Mary Dyer. I think she was Grandfather Dyer's sister, ya know. That's who
borne me.
Martin: Oh yeah .
Mary: And nearly all her children were borne, and Mrs. Liz Boland's, and all the older
people. She was the midwife for all them.
Martin: Oh yeah. She lived in Logy Bay, did she?
Mal1in: So was she a Dyer or was she married to a Dyer?
Mary: I couldn't tell ya now for sure. But I figured she was Grandfather Dyer's sister, ya
know.
Martin: So now, you lived in Outer Cove until you got married, I guess, didn't ya?
Mary: Yeah, I was twenty-two when I was married.
Martin: And then you went to Town 'cause that's where Dad was workin'.
Mary: Yeah, he was in the West End Fire Hall at the time. We were married the twenty­sixth
of July 1942.
Martin: Where to?
Mary: In Outer Cove at St. Francis of Assisi Church, Fr. O'Callaghan.
Martin: Yes, I saw a write-up in the paper on that.
Mary: Oh yes, a Mr. Doyle, a friend of your Dad's wrote that. He used to go in the Fire
Hall a lot, and play cards and billiards, ya know, and he was at our wedding. Eileen, my
sister, she was Bridesmaid and John Boland, he was Best Man. He went over to England
then in September or October that Fall, after the wedding.
Martin: Oh yeah, he had the uniform on him in your wedding picture.
Mary: He was in the Newfoundland militia and then he joined up to go overseas, you
Martin: He was in the 59th Artillery, I think, was he?
Mary: Yeah, the 59th And Rich Kinsella, he was in the War, too.
Martin: Was he?
Mary: Yeah. He went over that Fall, I think.
Martin: Oh yes, down in the Museum in Outer Cove, they got a pair of puttees belonging
to Rich Kinsella.
Mary: Oh yeah, and there was a fella Dyer, I forget his name now, he was in the War
too. And Aunt Mag O'Brien, she lost four sons in the War. Jim was in the States, he was
sunk. And Mike, he was in the Merchant Marines. I forget now, there was Mike and
Maurice and Jim and David.
Martin: David?
Mary: That was the youngest fella. He was torpedoed, poor fella.
Martin: So they all died in the Second World War. And Jim, he was livin' in the States,
was he?
Martin: Oh, so he was with the American Army?
Mary: I don't know if it was the Army or Navy, but it was one of the Services.
Martin: Oh, I didn't know that.
Martin: And the ones that were down here, were they all in the Merchant Marines?
Mary: No, David was in the Army and Mike was in the Merchant Marines and Maurice,
he was in the Army, I think, because he was in the Militia here, ya know.
Martin: So she used to be
Mary: The Most Bereaved Mother, yeah.
Martin: Now that was your father's sister?
Mary: Sister, yeah, and she was married to Maurice O'Brien. He was born down under
where I lived, down in Brien's place, ya know, where them houses are to now.
Martin: Oh, where that fell a Byrne from Torbay is. I thought Maurice Brien lived down
at the bottom of Fox's Hill?
Mary: No, that's after he got married. Aunt Mag's father bought that piece of land for
them, ya know.
Martin: Oh yeah.
Mary: And Mrs. Julia Roche, his sister, she was bOI11 there too, down on the Rocky Hills.
Martin: [s that the one married to Jack Roche?
Mary: No, to Jim Roche, Jack's father and Paddy's father. Paddy's mother and Jack's
mother, that's where she was born. She was a Brien.
Martin: So that's Paddy 'Parker', his mother was born in Brien's place.
Martin: And ah, so then, you lived then in Town and that's where we all grew up. But
every summer we used to spend in Outer Cove.
Mary: Yeah, we lived then up in the west end first, up on Job Street. And you went to
Holy Cross first. Ye are all westenders. In the meantime, we spent every summer in
Outer Cove. Your Dad's father had said to him: "Why don't you fix up the old house,
clean it up." 'Cause he had everything into it, ya know, shovels and everythin g. He li ved
there by himself He sa id: "Go down in the summertime." Dad said: "No b'y, by the time
we'd get it straightened up, it'd be time to go out." They'd have to go to school. So
anyway, he died in January 1946. And then the next summer, we went down in
September. That's where you staned school, in Outer Cove. We stayed down until
November that year. We came out in November.
Martin: Yeah, J remember that.
Mary: The following year we went down earlier when you got you r holidays.
Martin: Oh so you went down in September to start fixing up the house?
Mary: Oh yeah, cleaned it up. We went down once in a while, between times, ya know.
He took out the old shovels and everything li ke that, ya know, to fix it up.
Martin: I still remember going to schoo l down there. I remember Mary Boland, she's
Mary Lynch now, teaching me, maki ng me write with my right hand, when I was left­handed.
Mary: Don't say too much now, there will be people hearing that from all over.
Mat1in: Laugh. Well I guess that was the custom then.
Mary: Oh yeah, everybody. Sure I was the same way. I couldn't do nothin' with my
right hand.
Martin: You were left-handed and were made to write wi th your right.
Mary: Yeah, 'twas the thing then. Everybody'd say you were unlucky and it was bad
luck . But, sure Uncle Dave, he was left-handed.
Mal1in: Who's that, your brother~
Mary: Yeah, he was left-handed also. Yeah, and Uncle Tommy Hickey.
Martin: Uncle Tommy, too?
Mary: Yeah. I suppose it was heredi tary or something like that.
Martin: Now, who did you have teaching yo u? That was Miss Morrissey, was it?
Mary: No, Kitty Croke.
Martin: She was the one who switched you, was it?
Mary: And Miss Sutton. She's a nun now, Sister Andrea. She was the second one. And
then r went in the Hi gh School, Miss Morrissey. And I had to give up then in January
because my mother broke her arm and she used to do laundry, you know. I had to stay
home then. Poor Fr. O'Callaghan then came over to the house to see why they were
keepin' me home. And he said: "She have a good intellect and it's a shame to keep her
out of school. My father said: "There is nothing we can do abo ut it, ya know, because it
is only natural she had to help her mother." Because I was only II then, be 12 in April.
Martin: But all the rest stayed in schoo l, right?
Mary: Oh yeah, only Eileen was younger than me. Alme was worki ng in Sl. John's see
and I was the next oldest.
Martin: So after that, you didn't go back?
Mary: No, I wouldn't go back then.
Martin: Because you'd be behind?
Mary: Yeah, I'd be behind.
Martin: Now to go back for a second to where you lived then, when we went to school,
we always lived in Town but spent our summers in Outer Cove.
Mmiin: And you still got property in Outer Cove and pay taxes there.
Mary: Yeah that's right. Oh, I'm still Outer Cove, Rocky Hill s, because that's where my
heart is. J was bom and raised there and I was happy there.
Martin: You'll probably be buried there.
Mary: Oh, J hope so.
Martin: But not too soon though. Anyway, I guess I overlooked ask ing you your parents'
names and the number of children they had.
Mary: I mentioned that my mother was Catherine Dyer and my father was Michael
Hickey. Grandmother Hickey was Maria Bolger from Torbay and her husband was
Patrick Hickey.
Mm1in: Now where did your grandparents live to?
Mary: They lived down in th at house there (that house in the old photo with the car),
down by the beach, that's where they li ved.
Martin: The foundation is still down there by the beach.
Mary: Yeah. That's up from the beach because the cellar is there on the road. He's right
on the bottom of the road, that's where the house was. That's where [ was chri stened,
right there.
Martin: [n that house?
Mary: Yeah, 'cause Fr O'Caliaghan was in Pouch Cove at the time. There was no Parish
in Outer Cove until he moved th ere in 1920. In 1921 he started the Church in Outer
Cove, that's the time 'twas built then. He came up, I think it was in 1919, or some time
like th at, but he used to stay for a few months, I think, down to grandmother and
grandfather Hickey's . He used to go to Mrs. Ryall's. The family was D Ryall. He
chri stened him. He was a non-Cathol ic and he became a Catholic. He christened him.
He was called Samuel Dani el.
Martin: Oh that's what the D was for, was it?
Mary: Samuel D Ryall. He always used to pray for him . They li ved on Ci rcular Road,
in towards the Brewery, that way, ya know.
Martin: Now just to talk about that house for a second, that's the house that was in that
old picture there, and one time, before they built the big bridge, the road used to go
through the yard there, didn't it?
Mary: No, 'twas between the fence there, you can see it, and the cellar. The cellar was
on the other side of the road. The yard was in to itself.
Martin: Yeah, but after they built the big bridge, they changed the direction of the road,
Mary: Yeah, they put it in because they bought all that piece of land there. That hill
there they used to call Caribou Hill and they took all of that away. There's not much of
that left there now. They made the road wider there, ya know.
Martin: So th at house was probably the closest one to the beach?
Mary: Oh yeah.
Martin: And it was the closest one to the river.
M3I1in: Now he had a fairly big fishing enterpri se, r think, your grandfather?
Mary: No, it wasn't real bi g. He had three or four cod traps and he used to se ll li ver. He
used to rot the liver in big puncheons.
Martin: Big barrels.
Mary: No, great big puncheons, 84 gallons, T think. The men used to sell the liver to him
and he used to bring it out in the raw state, ya know, bring it out to Munn's. That's where
he used to sell his liver, down there. That's enough of that.
Martin: Now OK, your brothers and sisters.
Mary: There were eleven of us.
Martin: Eleven, was it?
Mary: There was Pat and he died when he was only two years ol d. He had pneumonia.
He'd be the age of Willie Boland, your Dad's brother. He was bom in March and Willie
was born in May, that was 1906. And then there was Dan. He was born in 1907. Dave
was born in November 1908. Then George, he was born in July 191 0. And th en there
was Martin, he was born in 1912. He and Willie Croke were the one age; Martin was in
January and Willie was in Jul y.
Martin: Big Willie?
Mary: Yeah. And there was Anne. r had two sisters.
Martin: Aunt Anne, she was born in 19 13?
Mary: Yeah and Mom lost a baby through a miscarriage between Martin and Anne. And
then there was Pat, he was born in 19 16. And then there was two girl s, Marie and
Margaret, but I'm not sure which was the oldest of them.
M3I1in: They both died young?
Mary: Yeah, one had diptheria, I think around 19 16; there was a bad flu on the go. One
was born in 19 17 or 1918 or something like that, and I was bom in 1920. And then Eileen
was the last of the family. She was born the twenty-second of November 192 1.
Martin: Actually, you'll be 80 later this month, April 26. That qualifies you as a senior
citizen anyway.
Mary: Yes that's long gone.
Martin: Now, when the crowd grew up, a lot of them went to the States.
Mary: Yeah, well Dave would have been 20 in November, he went to the States in
September 1928. And Dan went, him and Willie Houston went up to Montreal 'cause
Willie Boland, your Dad's brother, was already up there.
Mal1in: Oh, he was al ready up there?
Mary: Oh yes, he went up in 1925, I think .
Martin: I thought they all went up together, 'cause we got that picture down to the house
wi th the three of them on it.
Mary: No, he went up a good while before them, three or four years, I th ink. He was
married then, I think. Then Wil lie and Dan got together and said they'd go up and get
some work up there, because the fishery wasn't too good, you know.
Martin: Yeah. So they didn't stay up there.
Mary: No they only stayed five or six months or something and they went on to the
States 'cause Dan Houston was up there, and his sister the nun was up there.
Martin: Did Willie Houston go down to the States, too?
Mary: Yeah, he went down, and Dan. He stayed with Dan.
Martin: But he didn't stay?
Mary: He came home after a whil e.
Martin: And Uncle George?
Mary: George, he was in the Police Force in 1928 and he went to the States in 1930.
Martin: Oh, so they all went fi shing up there, did they?
Mary: That was the thing up there. Dave went fishin' wi th Dinny Boland, Mr. Will's
brother.
Martin: Did he? I didn't know that.
Mary: Yeah he had one boat at that time and then he got another one afterwards. They
said he was a wonderful man to get the fish, an ambitious man, he'd always have a
boatload of fi sh. He seemed to know where the fish was to.
Martin: Who was that, Din Boland?
Martin: I didn't know they went fishin' with him. Now your brother Dave, he used to
fish out of New Bedford?
Mary: No, that was when he got married, he went down to New Bedford. He got mate
on a boat and she used to go in and out of New Bedford to land the fi sh. And that's
where he met Violet, in Boston somewhere. She was Violet Wiseman from St. 10hn's.
And they got married and that's where they lived until she di ed.
Martin: But Din Boland fi shed out of Boston?
Mary: Yeah, he had two boats after a whil e, the Irene B and the Pauline B, named after
his two daughters.
Martin: And then Aunt Anne went up there?
Mary: Yeah, she went up. Uncle George bonded her in in 1935 first and she was up for
18 months. She came home then in lune. She stayed home for a year, and the follow ing
year George bonded her in. Your Uncle Dave Houston went away that Fall to Boston.
lust after he was up there, only a few months, he got drafted. So he went on to the war.
They were going to get married, ya know. When he went up there, he got drafted and he
had to go to the war. So they got married after th at.
Martin: And Uncle Pat, he stayed home and went to Grand Falls?
Mary: No, he was in the Police Force first. In 1939 he went in the Police Force and he
got transferred to Grand Falls after a couple of years. He was out there and he met Diane,
his wife. She was a McDonald. She was from out there somewhere and they got man·ied
Martin: And it was only you and Uncle Martin stayed home?
Mary: Yeah, and Ei leen at the time.
Martin: Oh, I was forgetting about her.
Mary: My brother Martin was in the Fire Hall too, ya know, but he didn't like it.
Martin: I didn't know that.
Mary: He went in it in 1942, but he couldn't stand it. He said: "bowing and doing drills
and everything, you wouldn't know but you were in the AmlY." He didn't like it at all.
So Uncle Davy, my father's brother, he had a truck and he went driving that on the roads,
the year the southern shore road was paved, you know. So that's what he was on for the
whole year. And then he was at that for a while.
Martin: So Uncle Davy had trucks on the roads even then?
Mary: Oh yeah, he was the first one to have a truck down there. He was in with the
Government, see, he was always a Liberal. The Commission of Government was there
then at that time.
Martin: I remember when he had trucks on the road.
Mary: And then Uncle Tommy got one.
Martin: And Uncle Martin, he stayed.
Mary: Yeah, he got on with the Base then. He stayed there at the mechanic's place
working on the trucks.
Martin: Very good. Anyway are you getting tired?
Mary: Oh no.
Martin: So now the only ones that's left in Newfoundland are yourself and Uncle Pat.
Mary: The rest are deceased except for Anne and Eileen in the States. There was eleven
of us. Three died young, eight grew up and there's four of us left.
Martin: Now I touched on it a bit earlier, about going to school, but
Mary: Well r was going to school but I had to give up. r was in Grade Seven, I think, but
r had to give up in January when my mother broke her ann. I had to help out with the
laundry.
Martin: So she did laundry for people in Town, did she?
Mary: Oh yes, old Dr. Anderson and Judge Higgins and two or three bank managers.
She did a big lot of washing.
Martin: So they'd get the fresh air from Outer Cove on their clothes.
Mary: Oh yes, she'd put them out in the open. And old Mrs. Ayre, she was a movie star
or something, she belonged to New York; she didn't know anything, she'd be looking for
capelin in January. She loved capel in. She'd say: "Are the capelin coming in today?" I'd
say: "No ma'am, it'll be a long while before they'll be in. They won't come in until June."
Martin: I guess in Town everything would be fairly smoky, all the houses would be
burning coal.
Mary: Yeah, wood and coal. Old mother Anderson, she was a Scottish nurse, he met her
over there, ya know, old Dr Anderson, Tommy. PG, now, his son, he was a child
specialist. Ye used to go to him.
Martin: Yeah, I remember him. So he's a son of the Dr. Anderson your mother used to
do the laundry for.
Mary: Yeah, they had two daughters. One of them got man'ied to T&M Winter's son
Gordon Winter, the Lieutenant Governor after. And the other marri ed a child doctor.
Martin: They allmalTied money.
Mary: Yeah, all married money.
Martin: Now you went to school in Outer Cove. Where was the school to?
Mary: Right there in the lane going over to where Paddy Power was.
Martin: Over where Jim Hickey is?
Mary: That's where the school was.
Mal1in: In the lane?
Mary: No, on the side of the road there.
Martin: On the same side where Jim Hickey is?
Mary: Yeah, right on the corner there. One corner of the school was on the land there
and it went up toward where Uncle Davy is.
Mal1in: So was that a one room school house?
Mary: No, there was two rooms in it. The small ones in one room up to grade 6, because
grade 6 then was CHE, and then 7 up to 11 in Miss Mon·issey's school.
Martin: So she taught high school.
Mary: Yeah that was high school, 6 to II.
Martin: I remember Dad talking about Miss Morrissey.
Mary: Yeah, "Look at that there now."
Martin: She was from out around the bay somewhere, wasn't she?
Mary: Harbour Grace. Brother Strapp was her uncle, you know. He used to teach at St.
Bon's. She was a good teacher. She went away then. She went away to Halifax, Mount
St. Vincent, to get her BA. She didn't have a BA see, at that time, so she went away. It
was supposed to be tlu·ee years but she did it in two. Now your Aunt Eileen had Grade
10 and was going in Grade II. When she went away, she never got her Grade II.
Martin: Why, because they never had anyone to follow in behind Miss Morrissey?
Mary: No high school teacher, no. She was a lovely teacher. She was only young, you
Martin: So then, who were the grammar school teachers? You said there was two there
in the one room.
Mary: There was Kitty Croke; she was there 2 or 3 years. She went away in 1928. And
then there was Miss Sutton, Kitty Sutton. She stayed 2 or 3 years and then she went in
the Convent.
Martin: So, who was the first teacher you had?
Mary: Kitty Croke.
Martin: Then after her was that one Sutton?
Mary: Yeah, and then there was a Miss James there. The year before I started there was
a one by the name of St. Croix. She belonged to up around the Southern Shore
somewhere. I don't know where she went.
Martin: The teachers didn't live in the school, did they?
Mary: Oh, no. They had another school out in Logy Bay where Johnny Stokes is now.
Then a fella Hearn bought it. He sold it then to Rose. So later when they tore that down,
they had the High School then.
Martin: Would there be many students in school then?
Mary: There was only about four, r think, in my class, there could be more, I forget.
Kitty Power was one, 'Cracks' they used to call her. Kitty Power in Middle Cove, she
was then.
Martin: In your class?
Mary: No, she was next to me. She was sickly, she had a hump on her back. She fell
when she was a baby and hurt her back, so she missed a lot of school.
Martin: So she was behind you?
Mary: Yeah, then her brother was there, Jim . Two brothers, they were in Grade 2 or 3,
Mal1in: Do you remember anyone who was in your class?
Mary: Mary Fox, Katie Boland, Lizzie Cahill. She's a bit older than me, she's 82 I
think. She didn't go to school right away, her mother died, you know, in 1930 I think.
Martin: She di ed in childbirth, didn 't she?
Mary: Yeah, so that's all I can think on that now.
Mm1in: So did ye have to take wood to the school for the stove?
Mary: Yes, splits. You'd take a bundle of splits every week or so, you know. You'd
bring them when you'd go back in the Fall so yo u'd have enough to light the stove in the
cold weather. And they'd take up a collection and everyone would have to give $1 or
$0.50 to buy coal.
Martin: So they'd burn coal in the stove, too?
Mary: Oh yeah, in a little potbellied stove they used to have then in both schools.
Martin: So, now you said you had to brin g splits. What about junks of wood?
Mary: No the men would bring the wood. Everyone would bring splits for 2 or 3 days in
the Fall so that yo u'd have enough for the Winter.
Martin: So, you wouldn't be bringing that all the time?
Mary: Oh no, yo u'd bring it perhaps for a week. And then the men would get together
and saw up the wood, and put it up, and have to put it in - they used to call it Dolly's
place - 'twas a big room off of the school, a storeroom type of place.
Martin: There'd be no li ghts, I suppose? Just the light of the windows.
Mary: That's all , yeah. If they were having dances or anything, they'd have to have
lanterns or something like that, lamps or something, you know.
Martin: Would they have that in the school?
Mary: Oh no, there was a great bi g space (all of this togeth er I suppose). They used to
call it the big room. Miss Morrissey was on one end of the school and the other one was
on the other end, and this big space was in between.
Martin: Oh, so it was in that building?
Mary: Oh yeah, it was a big place.
Martin : What was it like, a house?
Mary: No it was like a church, a saddle roof type.
Martin: So it must have been a fair bit bigger th an the floor space of a house.
Mary: Oh yes, it was longer.
Martin: So how did you get to school? Hop in a car?
Mary: Yeah, laugh. Like when th e stick was on the island (a tree across the river), we'd
go that way.
Martin: Oh, go down across the river below Jimmy Boland's?
Mary: Yeah, but then in the winter we'd go down under Uncle Maurice Brien' s, down
under Fox's Hill, we'd go down across the river there, and up over the hill.
Mal1in: So in the summer you'd go down across 'the island', if there was a stick there.
Mary: Yeah, a great big log going across the river. We'd walk across on that and up
over that big old steep hill . Laugh. In the wi ntertime we'd go down around the river by
Uncle Maurice's, and up. But sometimes the snow would be down there and we'd have
to go on the road, go right around the road and go up Slater's Hill.
Martin: What about when it was raining?
Mary: Yeah, you'd have to walk then; an old bandana or anything, maybe an old coat
over your head.
Martin: So that's the way ye'd cut across the river to go to school. Now, when we'd be
down in Whelan's Falls swimming, we'd go up in Croke's place and go along under the
meadows. Would they have school every day?
Mary: Well, if it was real st0Il11Y, they wouldn't, but otherwise you'd have to go.
Martin: Would the school year be much the same as it is now, like from September to
June?
Mary: Yeah, get the Summer off. But the CHE then would be later, late in ./une.
Mal1in: That's the High School crowd?
Mary: Yeah, they'd have to go. The primary crowd would be out a week or so earlier.
Martin: When you were in school, did you have a desk?
Mary: Oh yeah, old fashioned ones, two in a desk.
Martin: And what did you use to write, a scribbler?
Mary: A slate first when we were young, Grade 3 or 4 or 5.
Mal1in: So you used to use a slate, did ya?
Mary: Oh yeah, to write your letters and write your name, you know. And then you'd
get scribblers after that.
Martin: So how would you rub it out?
Mary: You'd have to bring a little cloth and have it wet. And some wouldn't have it and
they'd wipe it with their sleeve. I won't mention no names.
Martin: And what would you write on it with? With chalk?
Mary: No, 'twas a pencil about that (6 inches) long. 'Twas slate, a slate pencil. You had
ha ifa dozen of'em because sometimes you'd break them off, and you'd have to write
with the smaller part too.
Martin: So that would make it a different color.
Mary: That would make it white. It would turn white. It was slate, the same as what you
were writing on.
Martin: So you'd leave all that stuff in school, would you.
Mary: Yeah, if you had any homework, you know, you'd have to bring it home.
Martin: How long was that school down there?
Mary: B'y, I don't know, 'twas a long while down there.
Martin: That was there all while you went to school?
Mary: Oh yes, and long, long before. Sure Dave and Dan went to school there.
Martin: So when did they move from that up to the other school?
Mary: Fr 0 ' Callaghan moved up there. When he got the Church and the house built and
then he got the men, 'twas in the 1930s, I'd say about 1934 or 1935 he built the school up
there. He took it down, you know, the other one. The men used to go down in the
nighttime, and took it down. 'Cause they had the electric down there a good while before
it came up to the Rocky Hills. And he got a good lot of lumber and he used it for that.
Martin: You were saying about the electricity, when did it first come to Outer Cove?
Mary: That come in the mid I 930s, I'd say around 1934.
Martin: It never went to the Rocky Hills th en, did it?
Mary: Oh God no, it never went there until, God I don't know when. It went up as far as
Doran's, and up the other road. That was in my time. I'd say that was in the 1950s on the
Rocky Hills. I don't know what time it came up there. It was a good while, I'd say it was
the late 1940s, because the Yanks came there and we used to have the lamp lighting. I'd
say it was the late 1940s or 1950s.
Martin: Did McDonalds ever get the lights?
Mary: No, they never got them.
Martin: So their house and ours were probably the only houses that never got them .
Mary: John Fox, I don 't think they had them either. No, because Helen Hookey was the
first one to get them up there when they built the houses down in Power's po lind, you
know Stephen and Anne's place. They had a pound up there opposite John Fox's, on the
other side, next to Willie Croke. And Jim O'Mara and them bought building lots down
there. That's around the time that they got the lights down there. They might have got it
a bit before that down below, Uncle Tommy and them. Crokes, Mrs. Minnie Croke,
Willie and them, now they never had any.
Martin: Willie that went away to the States, he never did get the lights?
Mary: No, I don't think he did .
Martin: No? And he left in 1955. I remember him saying that. Talkin ' about the lights,
I remember when we were down in Outer Cove and Bolands got the lights over there,
over to Mr. Will's, remember. Larance would come out in the nighttime when the
Wrestling would be on TV, he'd come outside and wave the flashlight to let us know
Wrestling was on, and we'd go over. Laugh.
Mary: Yeah, Larance was home then. That was before he went away. It must be around
the mid-fifties. I don't know, because once we went out of it, we wouldn't be down very
much unti I we got the car, we'd go down in the summertime, ya know. But otherwise, we
wouldn't be down in the wintertime.
Martin: Now we were talking about the school and the Church. When was that built?
Mary: In 1921 the first Mass was said there, r think. J think he (Fr. Dan) came up in
1919, or something like that. And then everyone used to help out. The priest got
together with the people and he had the men do free labour to build it. It was all done
with free labour, every bit of it. And some of them cut the logs down in Grandfather
Hickey's place, big trees, you know.
Martin: Where was that to?
Mary: Up over Uncle Jim's, up on the Rocky Hills. He had a big piece of land there.
And he had more down on the Point, somewhere down there. And there was Fennessey's
in Middle Cove, they had a great big lot of timber over there. Fox's, I think, had some.
Everyone would give large and what they couldn't get large enough, they'd buy it. And
his house was built the same way. And then the women, they'd have to help out. The
priest would have the young girls, we'd clean the house and the Church every month;
scrub it in the Fall and in the Spring. Yeah, scrub the Church. We used to do it, the
young people. And poor Mrs. Fox, she always used to clean the altar.
Martin: What Mrs. Fox was that?
Mary: Din's mother, ya know, Lizzie, my godmother.
Martin: She was a Boland originally, wasn't she? Mr. Will's sister.
Mary: Yeah, she'd go every Friday. She always did the altar and dusted it and take off
the altar cloths and whatever wanted to be washed. And my mother, one day the priest
was going arollnd and she was doing a bit of sewing, and he said: "My, you're a lovely
hand to sew" She said: "No Father, I'm not very good at sewing." He said: "Yes, fused
to look at my mother sewing and she did little small stitches." He said: "I have an alb
over there and it is all ripped. J wonder would you sew it for me?" She said: " Indeed J
would. I'd be glad to do it. He said: "I'll give it to Maaary". He used to call me Maaary.
She's a wonderful girl for working, cleaning, herself and Catherine. That's Uncle Jim's
daughter Kitty, ya know. He used to get us to do his room upstairs. Poor Mary Walsh,
he'd put her at something else, dusting. We used to do stuff like that. He wouldn't have
to pay anyone. He'd save a lot of money by people helping out. We'd do the things that
otherwise he'd have to pay for. Poor priest, he got the lovely Church built. And then, the
Garden Party time, Mrs. Bride Coady, she'd be the head one over there, she'd always have
a tea table. The Rocky Hills would have a tea table, and down in Outer Cove would have
another one, and Logy Bay, and over in Middle Cove, they'd all have tables. And they'd
all have little things for the children, refreshments for them and little prizes, and the men
would be looking after that. They'd have the Garden Party before the Races, or maybe
Martin: So what would they have on those tables?
Mary: Well everybody would give a chicken. Everyone in the Pari sh would cook a
chicken and bring it. And the night before the Garden Party, we'd go up to Mrs. Coady's
and slice it all and get it all ready. And we'd buy a ham. That was Bride Coady. She
was marri ed then and living up to the Rocky Hills and she was the head of the table. And
we'd all help out and do it. We'd have everything cut up and we'd get the baker's bread in
Town, and a pound of butter and tea, someone else would give tea. Everyone would give
something. It wouldn't cost the Parish anything for the tea or the bread or what we put on
the table. The only things they'd buy wou ld be the trinkets for the chi ldren that wou ld be
on the wheel. Small children, soft drinks. Then the priest used to get a lot of donations
in St. John's 'cause he was out there for so long.
Martin: Yeah, so he'd know the crowd out there. Now before they had the Church down
there, they'd go to Torbay, would they?
Mary: Yeah, the people in Outer Cove and Middle Cove would go to Torbay, and the
people in Logy Bay would go to St. John's. St. Joseph 's, or most of them would go to
the Cathedral, the Basilica. And Mom was married out in the Basilica. That was her
Parish. They used to get marri ed where the bride was belonged to.
Martin: And so then, Fr. Dan, he was the first priest down here, wasn't he?
Mary: Yeah, Fr. Clarke before him, he was down in Pouch Cove. He was an Irishman,
too. He was over in Torbay for years. He died.
Mal1in: So you were saying you were christened at your Grandfather's house, down by
the beach.
Mary: Yeah, that was before he got the house up there, see.
Martin: He didn't have the Church built then?
Mary: No, he stayed down there for a while. He used to go out to St. John's, because
that was where he was, at the Palace, before he came down to Pouch Cove.
Martin: So, wou ld he do the Christenings of all the people down there at that house?
Mary: Oh, I don't know. I know I was christened down there. He did all the babies.
know Jimmy Boland was 3 weeks older than me and Jolm Boland was 3 weeks younger
than me. The 3 of us from the hill were Christened there. I think Anne and George and
them, they were Christened in Torbay. At least he was because when he was getting
married, Anne and I had to go over there and get his birth certificate.
Martin: So you were saying that the people in Middle Cove and Outer Cove used to go to
Torbay to Church. How would they get over there?
Mary: We'd walk. Anyone that felt like bringing their horse and wagon, they could drive
over. But most would walk over and back. Yeah, three miles, that's all. We used to
walk over there to a dance and walk back again in the night, ya know.
Martin: Seems like a long way to go especially if the weather wasn't that good.
Mary: Yeah, well they wouldn't miss Mass, they'd go.
Martin: And the same thing for the people in Logy Bay going to Town?
Mary: Yeah, they'd walk out. They were hard old roads. See they were used to it; they
didn't know any other way.
Martin: So I suppose a scattered one had a car?
Mary: No one had a car, only the priest. And then Mike Dyer got one in Logy Bay.
They were the only two cars up to the 1930s. And then Uncle Tommy got a little Ford,
little wire wheels.
Martin: A Model T or something, was it?
Mary: Yeah, a Model T. And old Tom Kelly, he had one, and Martin Kelly. But they
had them old tin lizzies - big high roofs on them, ya know.
Martin: Yeah, so they were the first vehicles down here.
Mary: Yeah, for the longest time Fr. O'Callaghan had it and that was all.
Martin: Everybody would be look in' to hitch a ride with them?
Martin: So they wouldn't take the horse and box cart?
Mary: Oh no, horse and express we'd have. But we used to walk. It was only across by
McDonald's and up the road. That was nothing then, to walk that much.
Martin: Yeah, but over to Torbay or Town was a fair distance.
Mary: Yeah, we used to go over there. When Uncle George was getting married, we had
to go over and get his birth certificate and we walked over and back again in the evening
to get it. We had exercise then. We didn't mind it because that was the only way. I
know, when I worked to Higgins', I'd walk from Circular Road down in the afternoon
when I'd get off and then have to be in at II at night; leave at half past 9 or quarter past 9
to walk out. We'd have to be in at 10:30 other nights, but II :00 Sunday nights. Myself
and Sue Smart. Sue used to work in on Monkstown Rd. I used to go in there with her
because Mike wouldn't let her go to Town. She wanted to go before that but he wouldn't
let her go. He said: "No, if Mary Hickey is going now, you can go out because we know
who she is." He was right crooked with her, but I used to find him alright.
Martin: You were saying that he used to run the sawmill over there.
Mary: Yeah, that's who the priest gave it to, to run it.
Martin: You were saying the priest used to have a sawmill down in Pouch Cove.
Mary: Yeah. When they were sawing for the Church, my father was taking the board off
the thing, and whatever happened, the board hopped, and his fingers struck the blade, and
took the tops of his fingers.
Martin: So he had that sawmill set up on what we used to call the highroad, across the
road from Aunt Nell Smart's.
Martin: And that's where Mike Smart operated the mill?
Mary: No, first he had it there on the priest's avenue, you know, on the avenue going up
to his house. He had it over there to be handy to the Church. And then, when the priest
didn't want it, he gave it to him. He said: "you're the fittest one to have it because you
knows how to use it, and you did all the sawing for the Church and the house." And he
asked him ifhe wanted it, and he said yes he'd be glad. So he had all them old metal
balTels, he had them cut down, you know, and that's what he used to put the roof and
sides on it.
Martin: So did he operate the sawmill for a long time then? I guess anyone building a
house would use it.
Mary: Oh yes b'y, he got an awful lot of customers who wanted wood sawed. I think my
father got some sawed when he was building a small barn. We had a great big barn first,
and he said it was too big because we had a cow, and when we got older, he didn't want
the cow. We had it up to the time we were growing and got big, and he had the cow for
mi Ik for us. So after that, he didn't need it then.
Martin: So when Mike Smart died then, that was about 55 years ago, what happened to
the sawmill then?
Mary: That was gone before that because he was sick before he died. I don't know, I
think he might have sold it to a fella in on the POliugal Cove Road or somewhere like
that. He had an awful lot of people - Fennessey's gave him, they had lovely timber over
there, Mike Fennessey and Mogue, and they gave a lot of the great big sticks, tall lumber,
they gave a lot of the big sticks to the priest for the Church and the house. All the board,
mostly rough lumber, went into it.
Martin: Now we'll change the subject a little bit and talk about the fishery. When you
were growing up, did most people in Outer Cove take part in the fishery?
Mary: Oh yeah, clear of Larry and Martin, your dad's father, they only used to go out in
the bay, just out past the moorings, out by the Point, 'cause they only had a dory, ya
know. Poor old Larry, I suppose he wasn't able to row very good. Most people though
had dories and my father had a motor boat. Not a big trap skiff now, but a big motor boat
and a dory. So he used to go out past the Point, out by the Cobbler, that way. Up off of
Red Head to the fishing grounds up there. Good places for the fish. Sometimes they'd
get more than they could handle, when the traps would be on. For six weeks the traps
would be out. They used to give it to my father, and Houstons, and Mr. Jim Coady would
get a load off of them. They used to get a lot of fish off of the traps, 'cause they had three
traps, I think it was. My father had 'em first, but then he got away from them. His father
gave him one and then he got another one for himself. But it was too much for him. He
had to do the potatoes and that ya know.
Martin: Did anyone go after the fishery in a big way?
Mary: My grandfather, but that was before my time. Mr. Coady, and Tom Rourke's
father and Mr. Jack Doran and Mic Doran and Mr. Tom Croke - he was a lovely hand to
make fish. My father used to say he was the nicest fish maker down there because he
used to have real nice white fish - never cracked or broken or anything. He used to get a
good price for it then when it 'd be good. But if it was anyways cracked with the sun, or
soft, or too much salt or anything, they'd pass it as West Indies. They'd give ya little or
nothing for it.
Martin: Oh yeah, so they used to grade it then.
Mary: Yeah, they had cullers. The merchants used to cull the fish, and they'd get them
to cull it. And sometimes they'd flick out good fish just to get it cheaper for the
merchants, ya know.
Martin: So what were the grades they'd have?
Mary: They'd have West Indies. That was the old, cracked and damp and that'd get
$1.50 or perhaps $2.00 a quintal. And then there was Merchantable, big Madeira and
Little Madeira, and there was Spanish, that was the best quality. There was a couple of
good quality fish, and another would be fa irly good you know.
Martin: You don't remember what they used to get for fish at that time, do ya?
Mary: Well, they'd $5 or $6 a quintal. It depended on the quality. If you got bad
weather, you'd get $2 or $2.50 for it. Some days they wouldn't take it at all; you'd have to
take it home and throw it in the dump.
Martin: Now, that was all salted, wasn't it?
Mary: Yeah, salted fish.
Martin: How would they measure a quintal? A quintal was a little ban·el, wasn't it?
Mary: Four bartubs was roughly a quintal, 112 pounds. Then they'd weigh it when they'd
go to Town. They used to bring out around 3 or 4 quintals with the horse and long cart.
Martin: So they'd grade it out there and pay you accordingly?
Mary: Yeah, they'd grade it.
Martin: What would detemline the quality of the fish? I suppose a lot of it would be the
weather.
Mary: The weather. See, mostly in the Summertime, you'd get the capelin weather,
'twas foggy and wet and you can't dry it, ya know. And if you leaves it too long in the
salt, when it would dry it would be so salty, it would crack down the center. And you
wouldn't get the quality. September and late August was the best time to cure the fish.
Then the wind would be getting dryer and sunnier and harder and it would dry faster. But
from June on until the last of July, the weather would be bad. In June, 'twas fog with the
capelin.
Martin: So the best weather was windy and dry and sunny.
Mary: Yeah, the Fall.
Martin: So how would they get that to Town then?
Mary: Horse and long cart. They'd bring out 3 or 4 quintals of fish on it. They'd have it
Martin: They'd store it on a flake or in a stage somewhere, would they?
Mary: No, we had a big flake there where the dump was to. It used to go from the comer
up past the bam, right out to the end of the dump. Before that we had another one above
that between Pop's cellar and the fence, past that because my father told him to build a
cellar there one time because he didn't want it for anything. And the flake ran from his
cellar over to Pop's fence; he had a big flake up there. So then when the highroads were
done, they made this dump there, ya know. My father wanted it because he said it would
be a grand place to put a flake. So he put the flake down there because it was handi er to
go out and make it and spread it. And sometimes, when you'd get the weather, you
couldn't dry it or nothing at all. You'd salt it in puncheons, I suppose you don't
remember the puncheons.
Martin: How big did you say they were? How many gallons?
Mary: Eighty-four. Yeah, 'cause that used to be in our Table Book: 84 gallons in a
puncheon. I can always remember that. And 112 pounds in a quintal.
Martin: So, what would come in a puncheon?
Mary: Molasses. Baine 10hnsons would sell it. We used to get a gallon of molasses
every time we went to Town. There was "Fancy", that was a light molasses. The other
was dark. There was a name on it but I can't think of it now. The 'fancy' was nice. The
fishermen then would be after the merchants for the puncheons. My father used to get
them off of Baine 10hnsons because he used to deal with them. His father used to deal
with them. And they'd sell them for perhaps $5.00 or so. And they'd have to wash that
out. You'd salt it for 4 or 5 days, leave it in salt. And then they'd have to get water out
of the river and wash the salt offofit. And put it in a bulk overnight in the stage. Then
turn it up the next day and spread it. If you could get weather, it'd dry in a week or so.
Then you'd put it in a large bulk on the flake, then cover it over with a tarpaulin or
something. And they'd leave it there for a few days. As soon as it was dry, they'd take it
to Town. They'd bring it out as it dried. 'Twould be mid-August before they got some of
it dried. So who would look after drying all the fish.
Mary: We would, myself and Anne. We used to spread it.
Martin: So it would be mainly women and the girls?
Mary: Yeah, the men would be out fishing. My father would be up at three o'clock in
the morning getting the boat ready. Then Martin, poor old Dan, I can remember. Dave
and Dan were with him first, ya know. He'd be gone down first, and he 'd say: "Now
hurry up by's and don't be too long. He'd call Dan and go on down. And Dave'd be
after Dan. Dan was right slow, ya know, takin' his time. "Dave, what's the matter with
you Dave? Dave, take your time." "Father will be down now waiting for us and he' ll be
going mad when we goes down. We're too late." "Take your time," he said. Dan was
right carefree, happy go lucky. But Dave would be going his length to get down. They'd
go out around 4:00 AM.
Martin: Now your Grandfather Patrick was fairly big in the fishery, wasn't he?
Mary: Oh yes, he had a lot of traps. My father was small. You had to have a crowd for
a trap because you had to have about 6 or 7 people in, one at one end of the boat, and
three on either side.
Martin: So he had a trap boat?
Mary: Yes he had two boats.
Martin: He did, did he? Along with a smaller one?
Mary: Yeah, he had dories and all that, ya know.
Martin: Was there anybody else big at it like him?
Mary: Mr. Jim Roach, he had one trap, but then he gave it up after a while. He was a
blacksmith, see.
Martin: Oh yeah, was it his son that fell over the cliff.
Mary: They said he was beat up and threw over it, ya know. It's a sin, ya know. He was
the nicest kind of a person, so kind and good natured, but when he'd get drunk, he was a
different person altogether. He married a girl out in Fox Harbour. She was Mary, I
forget who now. She was a nice person too. She was here in Town working. He was a
blacksmith, too, like his father. He was threw over the Battery out there, ya know. They
found him down on the bottom of the cliff. He was only young too. They had one little
boy Jimmy. He went away then to the States.
Martin: Now when they went out fishing, apart from the ones on the big boats, if
somebody was in a motorboat, they'd have what, a few nets or something, would they?
Mary: No, they'd have trawls. That's what my father had.
Martin: Would there be many in a boat for the trawls?
Mary: Well, two of them, ya know. They had to row. A lot of them had a large dory,
but they put a motor in it and that was a good help for them. My father had a big
motorboat and a dory. And when the fish would be plentiful, he'd have the dory tied on
and pull it along because he used to get a lot of fish out of the trap. His father used to
give it to him. They couldn't hand le it themselves, ya know.
Martin: So there would only be two in that boat and when they'd get their load, they'd
come on in?
Mary: Come on in then, yeah.
Martin: So how would they unload it?
Mary: Well , they'd go down with the horse then. Pat would have to go down, and
sometimes I'd have to go down because he'd have to go over to the Church - he was on
the altar. So I'd bring down the horse then. And they had two big drays; remember the
drays Boland's had over to the house? Well they'd bring down the dray and a swing and
put the horse into the dray and bring it down to the landwash and unload the boat out of
Martin: Oh, so they'd just bring the boat into the landwash, they wouldn't try and haul it
up or anything?
Mary: Well yes, they'd have it up out of the water, ya know, enough so they'd get the fish
off of it. They'd get two prongs then and prong it into the dray, and bring it up to the
stage, and throw it into the stage, and then they'd split it and gut it up there. The stage my
father had used to go right out to the end of the river. On that picture there now. You can
see the end of the stage.
Martin: Oh yeah, and for a long time, that stage that Uncle Tommy had his boat in used
to go right across the river.
Mary: Yeah that was down further.
Martin: Then they cut it off, right?
Mary: Yeah, and he'd have a bucket there with a rope on it, and they'd dip up the water
and haul it up over the landing. He had a little landing going out over the river, my father
had, on the stage.
Martin: They'd haul the water up to wash the fish?
Mary: Yeah, he had a puncheon-tub, a sawed-off puncheon, half, and they'd put the fish
in that, and throw the water in it, and wash it. When they were going to sa lt it, they had
to wash it first. There was a lot of work to it b'y, ya know, heavy work.
Martin: Now there was other ones that didn't have a motor boat.
Mary: They'd have to row.
Martin: So they'd have a dory, like Grandad Boland, and some of them.
Mary: Yeah, they used to only go out in the bay there, just out past the moorings there,
the comer of the Point, and they'd set a few trawls there. They usen 't to get very much.
Sometimes they would.
Mat1in: He used to build houses and stuff like that as well, didn't he?
Mary: Yeah, he used to build houses. He built two or three houses over on Bell Island
one summer. My father had him build a cellar for us. Another time he had him doing
something with the house; I don't know what, it was leaking or something. A fellow in
Torbay took the d0Jl11er windows off of it, and he put a straight roof on it.
Martin: Yeah, now they used to get the liver and put it in something.
Mary: A big puncheon. And they'd leave it rot and then they'd dip the oil offofit and
bring it out to Munn's.
Martin: How would they do that? Put it in another barrel?
Mary: Yeah, they had an oil barrel, and up to Aunt Amlie Kinsella's there, where Dan
Kinsella lived, there was a little river running down there and he used to put it in the liver
Martin: Where was that?
Mary: It was down below Dan's house, next to the river there.
Martin: So it was on the lower side of the Lower Road?
Mary: Yeah. When it would ferment, they'd dip it off and bring it out to Munn's; and
Gerald Doyle used to buy it. It was in the raw state. It wasn't refined or anyth in g. They
used to refine it out there.
Martin : So the trawls that they'd have, they were all hook and line?
Mary: Yeah, they were little tiny hooks, about the length of your finger. They'd have a
little loop on it for to put the twine on, ganglin' twine they used to call it. They'd buy it
up to Neyle Soper. It was a heavy line but it was only a fine line. And my father would
be making trawl, 'twas only about that long (16-18 inches). Each line they'd put on the
trawl, which was a big long fishing lin e. And then the hook would be on the little line, so
far apart.
Martin: I remember one summer, the sU lllmer I was out a few times with Mr. Coady and
Jim. And we'd be runnin' out that trawl, right, and Jim would be feedin' it out, and every
now and then he'd get a hook caught in the hand. It wasn't easy to do. The boat was
moving around and you're tryin' to feed that out.
Mary: No, you'd have to watch what you were doing, I'll tell you that.
Martin: A lot of times he got a hook caught in his hands.
Mary: Yeah, my father got one one time. He was going the whole summer out to the
Doctor with it. It got infected and when he got finished, that finger was as big, it was like
3 fingers together. And the nail of it was like that, and the rest of it was right big.
Martin: Remember, they used to get pups.
Mary: Salt water pups, yeah. Like under the hair you'd get a pussy pimple. Poor Pat
Hickey, Uncle Jim's Pat got them one summer, 0 my God, all his anns was covered with
'em. He had 5 or 6 around there, and he had another on the back of his hand. He just
about went right foolish. They got right sore. I guess it was the ilTitation of the clothes
and sa lt water and dirt and everything else, I suppose, fish guts and all that. That's what
they called them, salt water pups.
Martin: And what about the gardens and all that stuff.
Mary: M ysel f and Anne, we used to earth the potatoes. You know where the road is
going up to Mike's now, all that big thing was a garden, potatoes.
Martin: The big hill?
Mary: Yeah, and another one further over, we used to call the stumps. My father
cleared part of it, and myselfand Annie, most summers earthed them with the shovel.
Martin: Didn't ye use the horse?
Mary: No, 'twas too hilly. We were afraid of the horse. My father was fishing, and
when we'd come home in the evenings, a couple of summers, we did it, myself and Anne.
She said: "We'll do that for poor Pop." So we used to do it. We'd go early in the morning
and late in the evening. Sometimes they wouldn't get up from the beach until lIar 12, if
they got any kind of fish, you know, any amount.
Martin: That was a hard hill anyway.
Mary: Yeah and we used to shovel that.
Martin: Didn't you say that a horse and cart turned over up there one time?
Mary: Oh, up on the car road, you know, going up. Well just as you gets up to the top of
it, there was a short tum going into the pit, and coming out of it. I think Pat had it. He
was taking heads or capel in or something up to bury it there 'cause it was away from the
house. And when he was coming out, whatever happened, he mighn't be minding what
he was doin', and the next thing, the cart tipped over and the horse fell down and skinned
the side of his leg. And Mom was out by the side of the house and she said: "Merciful
Virgin, the horse is after falling down. Pat had the horse up there and I don't know if he's
killed or what." So she said: "Go on up and see what happened." Laugh. So I went up
and Pat was trying to get the horse up. I said: "Take the harness off him b'y. You're
trying to get him up with the harness on. Don't be so stunned." The horse was kicking
and going mad. He said: "I got such a fright, girl, I didn't know what I was doin'." The
horse jumped up then.
Martin: Well it was a hard hill anyway. You wouldn't cut that hill with a mowing
Mary: Indeed you wouldn't, no b'y. Poor father used to call it Mount Calvary.
Martin: I don't think our old hill over there was any better.
Mary: Yeah. Grandfather, when he bought the ground, the house was on the ground and
all, ya know. He bought the whole thing for my father because he was the oldest. And
he said: ''I'm going to sleep up there now this winter, myself and Maria, and see what 'tis
like up there." So he said: "\'11 never go up there again. Bloody Mount Calvary. I got
me nose frost burnt up there in the bed." Laugh. I can always remember, he used to
come into the house. He had a grey beard and a whisker and he always used to rub it at
me. I used to be afraid of it, ya know, because \ was only small then. I used to run away.
And he said: ''I'l l never go up there again." I can remember him saying it as well as
anything. "I'll never sleep up there anymore." He used to torn1ent us: "You'll get your
toes burnt up there."
Maltin: Yeah, I guess it used to catch a lot of wind and everything up there on the hill.
Mary: 'Twas nice though.
Martin: It probably wasn't as comfortable a house as what he was used to.
Mary: No, down there, for sure. He was down by the river first, and then he went up to
the other place, and there's not much wind up there either. He wanted to see what it was
like, I suppose. He bought it before my father was married.
Martin: Ye used to do most of your own gardening?
Mary: Yeah, while the fishing was on, and then mom had the laundry.
Martin: Who used to cut the hay and stuff like that.
Mary: They used to cut that in the evenings.
Martin: When they came home?
Mary: Yeah. They wouldn't have time to do the fish or anything, ya know.
Martin: Is that the way most of the crowd were down here?
Mary: Yeah, everybody had to do that then.
Martin: Now would they have much cattle or horses ar anything like that?
Mary: My father always had a horse, like that big one in the book there, Moll. My father
paid $320 for her. He bought that off of Mike O'Brien, MJ O'Brien. He was the dealer
in horses then, 'cause there was no cars, ya know. And she came from PEL Just like
selling the cars now, he was the salesman for horses. So he bought her. At that time she
was $320.
Mal1in: Wow, that was a lot of money then.
Mary: A lot of money then, yeah. He used to show them pictures of them, ya know. So
he saw this one and she was a lovely horse. Anne is up on her back there in the album.
And then, another time he got another one, but he sold her 'cause she was kind of wild.
She was called Belle, T think.
Martin: So ye always kept one horse, was it?
Mary: And a cow.
Mm1in: Just one?
Mary: Yeah, just enough for our own use.
Martin: Is that what most people would do then?
Mary: No b'y. Bolands had a cow, Mr. Will.
Martin: Now he had more than one in later years, didn't he?
Mary: No he had a horse and a cow. He might have had a cow and a heiffer and a
couple of small ones. He'd sell them to Pines or someone. We had a little one too, and
we sold him to Cyril Pine, I think.
Martin: I thought Mr. Will had haifa dozen head of cattle.
Mary: No.
Martin: I guess he didn't.
Mary: He always had a mi lking cow. And Houstons.
Martin: What about other animals?
Mary: We had hens. And then we had a goat. When the crowd got small, then my father
got a goat. He didn't get her, this Dolly Welsh, she brought him home one from Harbour
Grace and she gave it to him.
Martin : Is that the one you were saying "Dolly's Room"?
Mary: Yeah, Dolly's Room. She had it up in Rourke's Lane. She had a little store in the
house, a small little bungalow. And she used to go over every now and then to see her
Martin: So how come she brought him back the goat?
Mary: She brought him back the goat because no one used to sell them, ya know. So this
was grey and white and she used to give the nicest milk you ever tasted. Right thick.
She came from PEL Somebody was up and brought them down a goat. And she was a
kid out of it.
Martin: Yeah. Now were you saying someone used to torment the old goat?
Mary: Pat. When Pat was young, poor Mrs. Whelan, he used to get down out in the
yard, and Mom used to go after him with a stick. He'd get the goat when she was young,
see, they were right playful when they were young, goats are, like a dog. And he used to
go after her like this and she'd make the puck at him. And one day he came in with his
aml skinned off. And Mom said: " It's good enough for ya. I hope she skinned the back
offofya." Laugh. Anyway, when we'd leave her clear in the spring, we had to have her
tied up until the first of May, you know, you couldn't leave her go, she'd go down to
Mrs. Whelan's. One time she went down and she got potatoes down there. Mrs. Whelan
always used to have a small bucket of potatoes out there to boil for the hens, and put
some corn meal, cattle feed, on them. And this day anyway, she went down and she got
the potatoes. And every other day, just as she got clear, she'd go down to Whelan's.
And we were watchin' her, ya know, and she'd go back like that, and she'd make the big
pounce at the door and drive it in. And sometimes Mrs. Whelan would be down on the
back feeding the horse or something, and she came up, and here the goat had nearly all
the potatoes gone. And she'd go down again the next day then and we watched her then
and Mrs. Whelan came out with the broom and she gave her 3 or 4 whacks across the
back with it. And she just went up the laneway and stopped and just tumed around and
looked at her. She was real saucy b'y. Now Pat had her like it from pucking with her
when she was young. Because it was a novelty for us to have a goat, ya know. And he
drove her nuts.
Martin: Now other people used to have goats too, didn't they?
Mary: Oh everybody. Boland's, your Dad's father, had a goat. And Mrs. Houston and
Foxes had them. Everyone had 'em.
Martin: I remember Dad saying that they used to send the goats in the summertime down
in the Cobbler.
Mary: Down in the Cobbler when they'd have the kids in the spring. I remember a
couple of times my father put 'em down there and Pat would go down in the Fall and
bring them up out of it.
Martin: Yeah, they used to go climbing the cliffs after them.
Mary: Yeah, and the gulls eggs. They used to bring down the gulls eggs. I wouldn't eat
them though. Pat tried them a few times, and Martin.
Martin: Dad used to eat them too, didn't he?
Mary: Yes. I'd be afraid they'd be bad, hatching on them or something, ya know.
remember one time Pat fried them and there was an old smell of fish off of them. I think
they were half bad. Oh my, the stink of fish off of it; so he threw it out. I don't think he
fried them after. But they were great big eggs, ya know. They had grey shells with
speckled colors on them, green and white speckles.
Martin: I don't think I'd want to eat them now.
Martin: But at that time it would probably be alright because the gulls would eat fish,
Mary: Yeah, and in the Spring the hens wouldn't be laying, early in the Spring. But
they'd go down right early in April and May, and go right down over the cliff and get
Mal1in: I remember Uncle Dave Houston telling me that him and Dad and John Boland
and some others used to go down climbing the cliffs after the eggs, and stuff like that.
Mary: Yes they used to go down over the cliffs. I don't IGloW how some of them weren't
killed. The cliff down there is pretty steep. And then there 's undermines, old sandy
stuff, on the rocks. 'Tis a wonder they weren't killed.
Martin: Now did one of those goats eat the clothes off the line or something?
Mary: Yeah that's that old one.
Martin: What, yours?
Mary: Yeah, our goat eat them on one woman, Mrs. Anderson, but she didn't care if the
goat eat what she had so long as they were dried outside. I never seen such an old thing
as she was. And one time there was a tablecloth and a sheet went right up by the bog
pond gap. That's where I fou nd them in the Spring. Mom sa id: "She' ll eat me now."
Mom told her and she said: "My child, don't worry about that. Get that when the snow
goes. That shows you have them dri ed out. That's all she made of it. She was a Scottish
nurse. Old Dr. Anderson marri ed her.
Martin: I guess they liked the smell of the fresh air.
Mary: She came in one evening in October. Herself and the Doctor, every day they'd go
down and they'd go over by the Point, you know where they pulls in, over by Stacks, and
they'd stop there and watch the water. And then when the bridge got there, they 'd park
on th at just before the bridge and watch out around. But she came in one evening in
October, she asked if she could come in and waml herself. We said: "Yes ma'am, come
on in." And we were just going ironing and Mom saw the car stop and she said: "My
God, that auld thing, she's going to come in here. Laugh. The Doctor stayed in the car,
he didn 't come in . But she was cold and she wanted to waml herself and she come in and
she said: "Well Mrs. Hickey, anyone that have this should never be sick down here
because this is the most beautiful place in the world." Mom sa id: "Well ma'am, if you
were down here in the middle of the Winter you wouldn 't say that. And trying to dry
clothes." "Well" she said " I'm telling you, I know you must dry th em outside because I
often gets the clothes in the wintertime and the air'd be strong with the frost in it. I used
to sniff them for hours. And she said th at anyone that had anyway good health at all
should never be sick, have TB or anything here because the fresh air is priceless.
Martin : I guess in Town, there 'd be smoke and soot allover the place.
Mary: Yeah, everyone had coal then, ya know, and all the houses were so close together.
Up until the snow would come, they'd be down every day for a drive. About 3 or 4
o'clock you'd see them go down. Every single day. This evening, it was sometime in
October, and it was cold. It was a nice sunny day but it was cold. And she said: "We
stopped too long. But it was so beautiful to see the water blowing up against the cl iff,
and the whi te surf. We'd breathe in the air. You don't realize it because you were bom
and raised here, but to go out of the ci ty, and go down there and breathe that, you'd have
to be healthy."
Martin : I don't say she'd sniff too much ifshe was down there in the summertime with
the piles of capel in on the road.
Mary: No you wouldn 't get a nice smell then. And Mom said: "If you were here in the
wintertime you wouldn't say that."
Martin: I remember being down there as you ng fellas, we'd be down to the beach, and
you know the way they used to put their piles of capelin, sure they'd have piles of capelin
goi ng up the Lower Rd, right up over Slater's Hill. And that'd be there for weeks,
wouldn 't it.
Mary: Yes, Well Nathan Barnes over there in the White Hill s, and Cooks and all them
used to come down for capelin and they used to have them right up, nearly up to Doran's
Lane up there, and nearly up to Uncle Davy's (Hickey).
Martin: So they'd be there for weeks?
Mary: Yes, they'd be there rotted.
Martin: And I stil l remember seein' 'em, the people from Town wou ld be down and
they'd have the handkerchiefs up to their faces, and we'd be there laughin' at them.
Mary: Yes, my God.
Martin: Now, with regard to the Regatta, I suppose everybody would go out to the
Regatta, wouldn't they?
Mary: Yes, everybody would go out to the Regatta. Well Mr. Fox, now, I never
remembers him going out.
Mary: No, he'd never go. Mr. Coady used to go when he was young. And Mr. Will
Boland, he never went either.
Martin: Didn't he?
Mary: No. Crokes now, Mr. Din Croke and Mr. Tom Croke, they went.
Martin: Most of the crowd did.
Mary: He was rowing see, Mr. Din Croke. In later years he didn't go because he wasn't
Martin: I'd say there was always rivalry there, with Torbay especially.
Mary: With Torbay, they'd be fightin'. One year myself and Anne stood at the head of
the pond and there was 2 or 3 old Torbay ones in there. Anne was singing out for Outer
Cove as hard as she could, and of course, they weren't saying nothing, only taking it all
aboard. And they went down and rowed back, and anyway, Torbay won. And the next
thing, Anne knew nothing when this one went over, her name was Eustace, I think, and
she went over and she said: "Now come on Outer Cove. Where are they to now?" And
Anne said: "Oh, they're only playing with them." Anne turned around right quick and
here was that old one saying: "Now come on Outer Cove. " Laugh
Martin: Some of them would take it personally.
Mary: Oh, right bitter.
Martin: Yeah, there was always rivalry, I guess. And do you ever remember things
going on at the Regatta, like I believe, one time there was 2 or 3 of them drowned, wasn't
Mary: Oh yeah, that was before my time.
Maltin: I think they were from Torbay, ifI'm not mistaken.
Mary: One of them was from Torbay, I think, maybe two. I think one boat went aboard
of another turning the buoys, but I don't remember the details.
Martin: So for the Regatta, would everybody walk out and walk back again.
Mary: Walk back again, yeah. Sometimes someone would pick you up going home in
the evening, but you'd walk out in the morning.
Martin: And walk around all day.
Mary: Yeah, sometimes your feet would be so sore, walking on the rocky road. We used
to stop a scattered time and empty out our shoes because you'd be walking in on the side
and the old loose sand and everything. There'd be blisters on your feet sometimes, you
Martin: Yeah.
Mary: We wouldn't care, we'd go. My father would be up at six and get his breakfast.
"Come on now boys if you're going to the Races, the thing is starting at 8 o'clock. He'd
be going out then at halfpast seven. He'd go across McDonalds, that way, ya know.
And some of the crowd, Uncle Davy or someone would pick him up.
Martin: You were saying something last week about Ross' place.
Mary: Yeah, all that land where the river runs in across the pond from the boathouse,
where Pepperell was, that was all a big farm then. It started there at that road.
Mal1in: Oh yeah, that's the Boulevard there in the background.
Martin: What about the Military? Did any of them serve?
Mary: Well John Boland did. And Rich Kinsella, he was in England, he didn 't see any
Mal1in: Now, your aunt
Mary: Mag Brien. She was always the most bereaved mother in the Remembrance Day
ceremonies on Nov. II . She lost four sons in the Second World War. She lost Jim and
Mike and Dave and Maurice. Dave and Maurice was torpedoed. And Jim was in the
American anned forces - he was gone to the States to live. And he was drowned.
Martin: And what about the other fella.
Mary: Mike, he was in the Merchant Navy and he was killed overseas somewhere. And
poor Maurice, they never got his body, he was in the Navy. And they never got Jim
Martin: Some of them were in the Merchant Marine?
Mary: Jim was, and Mike.
Martin : [ guess the Merchant Marine weren't the Armed Forces as such. They brought
supplies over.
Mary: Yeah, bringing supplies over, th at's how they got torpedoed. They had to bring
supplies over to the different bases in England.
Martin: These are the ones that they are only recogni zing now. Remember George
Baker was on the news a while ago.
Mary: Yeah, but they served their country though. They had the most danger because
the sea was the worse place then to travel.
Martin: And they couldn't fi ght back.
Mary: No, they couldn't fight back. Food was scarce for the soldiers. They had to keep
it going to them.
Martin: Did ye have any traditions in Outer Cove at Chri stmastime? Did people go
around in the Mummers th en, or Jannyin g, or whatever you call it?
Mary: You'd keep the 12 days of Chri stmas then. Like Christmas Eve, you'd go to
Midnight Mass. The next day yo u'd have your dinner and then Christmas night, there
was always somebody came to the house. My father would have Houstons and Dave and
Willy and Johnny. Jim Coady would come down in the daytime. And th ere'd be Jack
Whelan, and poor Will Fox would come up sometim es, he was kind of shy. And down in
the Cove th en Willy Croke and Din Fox and all the ones Martin would go around with.
(Young Willy didn't come because he was yo unger.) Willy Boland, when they were
home, when Dan and them were home, their crowd would come you know. But in my
time, [ remember everyone would come to the house Christmas night. Next night would
be Boxing night and some would go to TOt'bay to a dance. I often went over - walk over
and walk home. Well not often, I didn 't like Torbay very much. One year we walked
home it was right cold and bitter. I said I'm not going over there no more. Dad was
working. 'Twas before [was married, myself and Eileen and Mary Fox and Kitty
McDonald and Helen Hookey went over. Kitty drove us cracked to go. And when she
got over, th en she took off and ran the whole way from Torbay Hall right down to Motion
nearly. And Helen went with her. And here was Eileen and Mary Fox and myselfby
ourselves. We couldn't run then, not after being at the dance. We took our time. It was a
real nice night, but it was cold. Down by Bulger's Lane three guys jumped Ei leen and
started to carry her off. When I realized what happened, I looked around for something
and saw an axe in Mac O'Brien's chopping block on the left side orthe road. I grabbed it
and said: "Let her go or I'll cut your arms off." Two of them did and took off. One of
them said: "Come on Joe," and he finally let her go and took off too. We went on then
and I took the axe home with me. The next day my father noticed the axe so I told him
what happened. Martin said that was one of the Whites. He had a reputation for abusing
girl s. My fa ther knew Mac O'Brien and when he went to Town, he took the axe out to
the East End stores for O'Brien to get when he went there.
Martin: So why did Kitty run?
Mary: I don't know - just to get herselfwann. And Kitty would take a fit of laughing
then and you would hear her all over - herse lf and Diddles.
And the next night then, the crowd would come dressed in the mummers. Sometimes
they'd come in, more times they'd go on. They'd go over to Pop's then. Poor Aunt
Annie, she was kind of small and she had a big crowd too. She didn 't care for that.
Fools they used to call them, going around in the fools.
Martin: So how were they dressed up?
Mary: They'd have sheets on. Some would have cotton blankets, ya know, with their
faces covered over. Most times yo u'd be dressed up like a man. Young fell as, ya know,
would have an old pair of underwear over their clothes, and a piece over their face, an old
shi rt or somethin g. And they'd try to haul the thing off of your face.
Martin: So it was a lot like the Mummers Song?
Mary: Yeah, same as th at.
Martin: Would they get a treat then or anything out of the house?
Mary: Sometimes they'd get something. One time we went into old Mr. Jim Kelly's,
and Catherine Kinsella, she was Cath erine Kelly, she was sweeping the floor.
Martin: Oh, th at's Mike's wife, is it?
Mary: Yeah. Your Dad was with us anyway, and Mary Fox and Ei leen and two or three
more, and Willy Croke, I think. And anyway your "Dad said to her: "How abo ut a few
sets?" You know, a dance. And I can see her now as plain as anything, and she stood up
with the broom under her face, like that, and she said: "You must think we're setty." We
all started to laugh. Poor old Mr. Jim Kelly, he sat to the table and he didn't say nothing.
So we didn 't stay very lon g. We came on out. But they gave ya something. They'd give
the men a glass of beer and we'd get a glass of syrup, ya know.
Martin: So that Jim Kelly, is he anything to Harold and his family?
Mary: He might be a cousin of their father, old Tom Kelly and Jack and them.
Martin: So you used to do that during Chri stmas? Was there a special place everybody
would go at the end of Christmas?
Mary: We usen 't to go very many nights, you know. Some nights, like New Year's Eve,
there might be a dance somewhere, at a school, or somewhere.
Martin: What abo ut twelfth ni ght?
Mary: Twelfth night everybody'd be out. And some people would have a dance in the
house. When Aunt Annie Hickey was alive, she liked to have a bit of fun, she used to
have a dance, Mame and Maggie would get the crowd together.
Martin: That's Pop's wife is it?
Mary: Yeah, she was from Torbay. She'd have a dance. And down around the Cove,
someone else would have one, ya know.
Martin: So weren't you saying that she didn't like the crowd coming in?
Mary: Well she wouldn't mind the crowd on the hill, like Houstons and Foxes and the
rest. But she didn't want them from all over because she had so many chi ldren. So the
crowd would get together, 15 or 20 or so, someone would have a mouth organ or
something. She used to like a bit of fun like that, but she didn't want a big crowd
because she had an awful crowd of children. She had 14 herself, and she was only a
small little woman.
Mmtin: She died in childbirth, didn't she?
Martin: Now, talking about stuff like that, Granddad Boland used to play.
Mary: The tin whistle.
Martin: Or was it the Jew's Harp?
Mary: Yes, he played the Jew's Harp too, but I know he played the tin whistle.
Martin: Where would they play that? Would they have a little time with that?
Mary: No, he used to play it home. The crowd used to go to Bolands, you know, all the
Rocky Hills, when Mrs. Mary Ann was alive. There'd be Will Fox and Din, our Pat - he
wanted to go over because Mary Ann would pinch off some tobacco off ofMr. Martin's
stick he'd have on the window, ya know. She'd pinch offa bit and give it to Pat. Pat
used to bring up water out of the well for her, ya know.
Martin: Your brother Pat?
Mary: Yeah, and when he'd come over then, she'd sneak it over to him . Mr. Martin
would come from McDonald's and leave it on the window, and she'd go and pinch offa
bit, perhaps enough for a couple of cigarettes for him. And the next moming, he'd get
up: "Were you smoking last night?" "You're getting foolish" she said, "] never touched
it." "Well there's an awful lot gone offofit. Enough for 2 or 3 cigarettes gone offofit."
'Cause you'd only get a stick of tobacco a week, ya know, because there'd be no one in
town. They'd be watching it like a hawk. She'd start to laugh th en. He said: " I' ll have
to keep that in me pocket, or put it under me head every night." Laugh.
Martin: Now she used to take snuff, didn't she?
Mary: Yeah, she used snuff. A lot of people did. I don't know what it used to do for
them. She used snuff and someone el se too, Grandmother Hickey, I think.
Martin: Now that tobacco that Grandad Boland had?
Mary: That was Beaver.
Martin: Now they used to smoke that in the pipe.
Mary: Yeah, but the young fellas would take it and grind it up right fine and wrap it up
in a piece of white paper and smoke it. They used to look for white paper. Some of the
meat shops would have plain white paper and wrap up the meat in it. They'd be watching
that when they'd come home from Town. Pat would often take it and go offwith it.
Then he'd go over to Boland's, she'd say to him: "Bring up a bucket of water now, will
ya, please?" "Yes ma'am, indeed [will." He'd go down for the water. Then he'd get his
smoke. He wouldn't take any of Pop's because he'd be afraid, r suppose. He wouldn't
take his father's. All the men would have a stick of tobacco. My father would get it
during the week if anyone would be going out because what they had would be gone by
the middle of the week.
Martin: So they'd probably have a couple of sticks for the week.
Mary: Golden Shag and Bugler and Target and Beaver are the ones I can remember.
Martin: So they'd cut off enough to fill their pipe and
Mary: Full their pipe, and then they'd put it in their pocket or on the shelf.
Martin: And if the young fellas were going to use it, they'd use it for cigarettes.
Mary: Yeah, they'd have it ground up right fine.
Martin: Now I suppose most people did smoke then, right?
Mary: Everybody 1 suppose that I know of.
Martin: That was my recollection, that the adults smoked, the men anyway. It was
almost a part of growing up then, to get your smokes.
Mary: If you were going on the altar, you wouldn't because if the priest ever smelled
smoke off of you, he'd box the ears off 0 f you.
Mal1in: Would he?
Mary: Indeed he would. He wouldn't want them smoking. He never smoked himself, ya
Martin: Now Dad was on the altar for a while, wasn't he?
Mary: Yes, he clouted your Dad. I don't know what it was for. His father took him off
of it then.
Martin: Didn't one of them (Dad or Din Fox or Uncle Pat Hickey) get their Surplice
caught on fire over there?
Mary: I don't know, but 1 know poor Din Fox, the last few years Fr. O'Callaghan was
there, he'd have Mass in the house then, there was a big wide hall going the full length of
the house down in the bottom flat. Anyway, whatever happened, Din Fox was supposed
to be on the altar, he was a big young man then, teaching school. And the priest was after
telling him to get candles or something, and anyway he came and forgot it. And up in the
top of the hall, he had an altar there to have the Mass on. Everyone used to go to Mass
for Lent and the hall used to be filled. So he said: "Where's the candles to?" He was
after forgetting to get them out of the Church. That's what it was. So he said: "I forgot
them, Father." So he said: "Go down and get them." And he gave him 3 or 4 smacks on
each side, and whatever way he hit him on the side of the nose, the blood came out of his
nose, down, right down. And he never said nothing. He went down and got them. And
all the people there looking at him, ya know. He apologized after. He was right hot
tempered, ya know.
Mat1in: Is that right? Maybe it was Uncle Dave Houston, but someone was telling me a
story about when they were on the altar and maybe they leaned too close to a candle or
Mary: No. See, he always used to have vigil lights, one on each side and they were
kneeling down saying the Confiteor, and they were kneeling too close to the thing, and
the surplice caught on to the light and caught on fire.' And the priest made a roar at them
to get out in the Sacristry.
Martin: Afraid the place would burn down?
Mary: No he was afraid the carpet would get burnt. He sail: "Get out and brush it out".
So Dave had to run out. I wasn't there but I can remember it now and whoever went out
Martin: Who was it caught fire, do you know?
Mary: I don'! know if it was Din Fox or Tom Doran or someone. I know he gave my
brother Pat a crack another time. I don't know what he did; he was late or something for
his tum on the altar. He got 2 or 3 whacks across his ears.
Martin: That must have been almost accepted then. But you wouldn't do it now.
Mary: Oh no, you'd be before Court if you did that now. But you know, you wouldn't
say nothing then. He gave your Dad a couple of cracks too. Your Dad's father took him
off the altar. He couldn't agree with that. His father went over to Fr. Dan and said:
"That's alright you can get someone else to box now, the next time." So he didn't say
nothing to him because he was one of the ones building the Church, you know. He was
asking your father one day when he was over to Mass: "Where were you to, you're not on
the altar?" He said: "My father took me off." He said "Oh." That's all he said. He never
said anything more about it.
Martin: I remember Uncle Dave Houston telling me stories. Sometimes they'd pip off of
school when the seal hunt and stuff like that was on, watching the boats go out.
Mary: Yeah, they'd go up on Red Cliff and them places and watch them going down.
Down on the Point was another place.
Martin: Would many of the people down there go to the seal hunt?
Mary: Yes, my gosh, my father was out, he used to love it. He loved the water. The last
time he went out, it was in the Beothic, and they got up in the Horse Islands, they were
only 2 weeks out and they never got home until the 41h of May. They were jammed into
the ice and she was a great big boat but she wasn't much good for ice.
Martin: They'd probably lose their catch then too, wouldn't they?
Mary: They never got no catch. Whatever they had would have gone bad. They never
got nothing that year. See they used to go out. They'd go out in March, see, around the
41h or 10lh of March. And they'd usually be in around the last part of March, or the Slh or
I Olh of April. Well they'd have plenty of time to get ready, my father would have the
salmon nets ready then, the salmon nets mended and ready to put out. That's the last year
he went out, 1934 or something. And when they'd come in, whatever money they'd have
they would be able to buy twines and everything, whatever they want. They'd go at the
salmon then, and when the salmon would be over, they put out their trawls.
Martin: So their nets would be already mended before they'd go to the seal hunt.
Mary: Yes, because you couldn't depend on whatever time you'd get in, ya know.
Martin: I guess that would give them something to do in the winter time, anyway.
Mary: Yeah, they'd be haulin' wood before, when the snow would come, before that,
getting wood hauled before summer, haul it with the horse and sleigh.
Martin: Dad was out to the seal hunt too, wasn't he?
Mary: He was out 2 or 3 times. For sure he was out twice.
Martin: I thought I heard him say he was out 5 or 6 times.
Mary: Maybe he was, b'y.
Martin: The first time he was out, didn't he have his birthday out to the ice?
Mary: I think it was only twice your Dad went out. There was only two boats he went
on, the Beothic and the Imogene. She was the queen of the fleet.
Martin: The Imogene?
Martin: How old was he when he first went out?
Mary: He was only 16; he had his 17th birthday on the ice. And on them big boats you
wouldn't get in very early, unless you had a load, ya know. If there was any seals on the
go you'd be out 'til late.
Martin: So that was what, 1930 or 1931. He was born in 1914, so that would make it
1931. What boat was he on?
Mary: The first year he was out, he was out in the Beothic.
Martin: And the Imogene, he was on that in 1938?
Mary: Yeah that was his last year because he went in the Fire Hall then on July 4. Sir
Edward Emerson got him a job. He worked in there in his garden, utility man: washed
the cars and did the lawns and stuff like that. And he used to go in there in the summer at
Virginia Lake. He'd be in there with the boat.
Martin: So that was the year he joined the Fire Hall-I 938.
Mary: Yeah, he didn't like out to the ice, so when he came in, he asked Mr. Emerson if
he'd get him a job in the Fire Hall. He said he'd like to have something pernlanent.
"Sure" he said. He could put in who he liked because he was Minister of Justice then.
Martin: Now, when he worked down to Emerson's, they had a big ice house there, too,
didn't they?
Mary: Yeah. [n the wintertime, he'd get his father and get him work in there and they'd
cut the ice. They had a great big ice saw and they'd cut great big blocks of ice and put it
in the shed. They had it insulated around inside. They had enough ice to do all year,
because there was no fridges then, you know. The first year r went to Higgins', Gordon
gave her a fridge for Christmas and [went in there in April 1938. No one had any.
Murphy in on TOt'bay Rd used to sell ice. My father and mother lived in Emerson's one
winter when Martin was a baby. They had a cow, see, and they used to leave the cow in
the winter and they wanted somebody to look after it. Old Edward would be down
buying salmon and my father would often give him a salmon, you know, and he wouldn't
want to take the money. "Go on," he said, "take it." "Cause it was only 10 cents a pound
then, ya know. So he was in there and stayed the whole winter. Martin'd be bawling for
the milk and he used to milk the cow in the morning and give him the milk to drink.
Martin always used to love milk. And they stayed in there the winter. He asked him to
stay in the winter, but he said: "I won't be able to stay in there too long, because [ have to
be at the fishing. 1 have nets and that to get ready." "That's alright" he said, "we'll be
going in there the first of May anyway." They'd always go in there the first of May for
the summer.
Martin: That's like insurance for the house; there'd always be somebody there.
Mary: Yes, in case somebody would break in. 'Twas nice in there though. Quiet, and
nice grand wood and everything. He'd get all the wood. [used to go out with him on the
long cart in the summertime. He'd go out and get a load of wood out there. Dry wood, a
great big forest in there.
Martin: Now they had a lot of property, didn't they?
Mary: Oh my yes, they had an awful lot, as far as you could see, right around.
Martin: Was that some kind ofa grant they got one time?
Mary: Yeah, Edward's grandfather, old George Emerson, was a lawyer and the English
Government was taking in Crown Land here and they wanted to know if anyone had any
claim to it. He had to make out a list, do a brochure and do all the areas, maps and
everything to take in the land for the Crown. And so he had to go and bring it over to the
English Government. They said: "Name what you would like the most. Would you like
money?" "No", he said: "I tell you, what I would like most is land." They said to name
however much ya wants, whatever land you would like to have. So he had a map, old
Emerson had a map, you know where he was figuring what he'd like to get. So he started
in there and he went right to the Torbay Rd and it was one thousand and something acres.
He sold a lot of it and got money for it.
Martin: So that's all the land where Emerson's Pond is?
Mary: Emerson's Pond. That's what he wanted to get, see, where there was a nice pond
there. Virginia Lake. What do they call that subdivision down there all around the lake
with all the big shots.
Martin: King William Estates. So they took in all the land between Logy Bay Rd and
Torbay Rd.
Mary: Yeah, it started there, down by what used to be the Protestant schoolhouse, and it
went right in past Emerson's gate, almost down to Robin Hood Bay Rd, right across from
that, and right in to the Torbay Rd., a thousand acres worth anyway.
Martin: A lot of land, wasn't it.
Mary: Yeah, a lot of land. They sold a lot of it after.
Martin: Now, that first Emerson, he must have been a Surveyor?
Mary: No, he was a lawyer, old man Emerson, George was his name. I know George
was the fell a did the thing up for the British Government. Newfoundland then was only a
little country.
Martin: Now, [ remember you telling me one time about that big blimp.
Mary: Yeah, the Hindenberg, the one that came over from Germany.
Martin: That's the one that caught fire in the States. Now, that went right up through
Outer Cove, didn't it?
Mary: That went right up, came up from the Flatrock beamer, that way, come up that
way and it was just floating along. There was no sound or any kind of noise out of it and
it kept on going up right slow, and it kept right in the bay and it went right on up over the
big river, that way. And it kept on going right out and it was going right slow. Twas just
like a big bomb. That was the name of it, the Hindenberg.
Martin: What did the crowd think of that?
Mary: Oh my God, everyone thought there was a war on or something, because you had
no radio or anything, and you wouldn't know unless you'd be in Town and get the paper
and get any news out of it. And there was no radio or TV. Poor Mrs. Whelan, they had a
garden there by that wall there on the corner and 1 was out in the yard watch in' it and she
beckoned to me to go down to her and she said: "What is it? Did you hear anything? Did
you see that thing going up like a big balloon?" And 1 said "Yes, we don't know what it
was." There was no noise to it. She said: "Tis not like a plane and there was no wings or
nothing on it, 'twas just like a big bomb." "My God" she said "I suppose they're not
going to blow us up." Poor old thing, she was frightened to death. And the next day
then, someone was in Town and got the paper, some of the milkmen, Pines or someone,
and they said 'twas a Gennan modern-type plane. They said it was one of a kind and they
were doing some kind of experiment on it. It said then, in the paper they phoned the
Head Office in Germany or England, or somewhere, and they said they were testing it to
see what endurance it would have, going with no wings or anything, just a motor.
Martin: Any idea when that was?
Mary: I think it would be about 1937 or 1936, mid-thirties.
Martin: Is that the same one that blew up?
Mary: Yes, it went from here across to Canada and into the States. 'Twas some place in
the States, it blew up.
Martin: Yeah, New Jersey or some place like that. Anyway that was the excitement for
that day.
Mary: Yeah, it was a really exciting time.
Mal1in: Now I remember you talking, too, about the Military during the Second World
War; it was around that time that the Yanks took over the land up on Red Cliff. Didn't
they have sentries posted along the coastline?
Mary: Oh yes right along. They had a little barracks. They had one up on Flagstaff in
Red Cliff, and another out around the Battery somewhere or Signal Hill, and another one
down on the Point, and they had another one down by the Beach up over the Beach Road
there, going over towards Houston's stage, they had another one there. And over in
Middle Cove they had another one, and Flatrock, and Torbay, right around the coast.
Martin: They'd have it on high ground, would they?
Martin: Now that one up on Flagstaff that was up in
Mary: Houston's Place.
Martin: You could look down over Logy Bay. So what would they do? They'd be in the
barracks down there, and they'd carry guns and everything, wouldn't they?
Mary: Oh yes. Some days they'd have a march. They'd walk and they'd have so much
on their back, a knapsack type of thing. They'd have to carry so much weight and they'd
walk, perhaps out to the Base at Pepperal. And then, another day they'd walk towards
Torbay or Flatrock. They'd have to do so much walking every day. And I know, one
Sunday evening, my mother and [ were going down to Aunt Annie Kinsella's, and when
we got there to Doran's Lane, there was two of them coming up, and we never said
nothing and just as we got apast them, they said: "Halt, who goes there? Laugh. And my
Mother said: "My God, what's wrong with them? They have a gun." And we stopped
and they said: "Don't you know you're supposed to stop when we say: "Who goes there?"
And Mom said: "No sir, we don't know nothing about soldiers, or what to do when they
stop and speak." And he said: "Well, when we say 'Halt' or 'Who goes there', you're
supposed to stop." He asked us then where we were going. She said: "I'm going to visit
my sister. She's down there, going up that road. So he said: "Well that's alright." The
two of them went on. They'd walk right up, perhaps to Red CliffRd then, and go over on
Red Cliff, and come down and walk back again.
Martin: So, was it during the Second World War that they took over the land up on Red
Cliff:'
Mary: Yeah, after they got established down at Pepperal, the head ones wanted to get
them posted around because there was a lot of U-boats around the coast.
Martin: So it was after the Yanks got into the Second World War, was it? They weren't
here before?
Mary: No, they never wanted to go into the War. England asked them first for the
warships they weren't using. They said: "Well, they're not in very good condition." They
put 'em off, you know. So when they got bombed in Pearl Harbour, they got after
Churchill and they agreed on giving them 50 old warships that they had. Then in return
they wanted a lease for to build barracks along the coastline because they said there was
U-boats around. Up in the Gulf, sure, the Caribou was sunk and I believe there was
another one. Two of the passenger boats from here, ya know.
Martin: So that's when they took the land in Red Cliff, was it?
Martin: And they expropriated a good bit of our land, didn't they?
Mary: Well your Dad's father had 20 acres up there, and Houston's had some more and
Mr. Will (Boland) had about the same, ya know. I know they took in 8 or 12 acres from
your grandfather for the barracks and all they gave them was $20. See, 'twas only Crown
Land then.
Martin: So what did Grandad Boland do with that then?
Mary: He gave it to Mr. LaITY to buy a couple of pairs of long rubbers for Will and
himsel f (his brothers).
Martin: Oh yeah, for Uncle Lar and Big Will.
Martin: And I suppose Mr. Will and Houston's got the same?
Mary: They got the same, yeah.
Martin: And was there someone else got land taken on them too?
Mary: Yeah, Pat Power. Anyone that had land on the coastline, ya know.
Martin: Remember the buildings they had up there with the big domes on top?
Mary: Yeah, and a water tower they had up on Flagstaff there. Remember that big
tower?
Martin: Up on Flagstaff?
Mary: You could see it from the split of the cliff there when you 'd be coming down,just
as you'd get up on Red Head itself on the level there, ya know, there was a great big
water tower. That's where they used to get the water from down there by your Uncle
Nix', and the pipeline'd be going right up to that big tower up on Flagstaff.
Martin: I don't remember that tower. I remember there was two big round balls.
Mary: Yeah that was for the communications equipment. But the Tower was where
they used to get the water from the dam.
Martin: Yeah, they'd pump it up over the hill.
Mary: Yeah to the big tower, a reservoir. Mundy Pond used to have one too, years ago.
Martin: Some of the cities in Ontario have them. Peg's sister up in Orangev ill e, Ont. has
one right across the road from th eir house.
Mary: Yeah, well that was a huge one up there. They had three or four barracks up
there on Flagstaff.
Martin: It 's strange, but [can't remember that water tower at all. Now, did they tell lots
of ghost stories in the old days? Wasn't that the way they passed the time at night?
Mary: Oh yeah, but I'd never listen to them because you'd be afraid of your life. They
used to say they'd see people down to the beach and everything, ya know. Like out to
the Point there. Ah, poor Aunt Statia (Hickey) there, she li ved down there where poor
Michael Doran lived. You remember Michael Doran?
Mary: Well she used to come up to my mother (her sister) in the night time about the
noise she used to hear down there, ya know. She said: "That place is haunted down
there." They used to say that place was haunted, ya know.
Mary: Mom would say: "Go away girl, that's only the noise of the water beatin ' against
the cliff." "No girl" she said, "it's not that at all. Sure I knows that. It's not that."
Martin: I know myselfand Peg were down there last year, for a walk down to the Point,
and there was a big undertow on, and boy what a racket!
Mary: Yeah, and that's what she used to hear see, and she used to think there was
somebody down there. She wouldn't want to go down. Momma used to give her a piece
of bread to put in her pocket.
Martin: Yeah, what was that for, to keep away the fairies?
Mary: Yeah, to keep away the fairies. 'Twas blessed see, the salt in the bread was
blessed. "Go 'way", she said, "we lived out in Logy Bay and you should know" she said,
"we used to go down to the rooms in the summertime and our father 'd be fishing." They
used to stay down there in the summertime and they had little fishing rooms down there.
They had place enough to sleep down there, ya know.
Martin: So who would stay down there?
Mary: Mom, when she was young, and Aunt Statia, and she said: "Sure we used to hear
noises down there." "No" she said, ''' tis a different noise than that altogether. She said:
'There's something down there. ['m not going to stay there." So Uncle Martin had to
sell it. He sold it to Mr. Jack Doran, I think, because that's where Michael Doran built
his house first.
Martin: Now, they used to tell other stories, too, about the Mickeleens and all that stuff.
Mary: Oh that was only tormenting the children for to keep 'em in.
Martin: I remember we'd hear ghost stories about down in the marsh down under the hill
in our place. I guess it was the same thing, to keep us home out of it.
Mary: Oh yeah, they wouldn't allow ya to go near the marsh years ago, I know when [
was small. I know Mom used to have a fit. She'd make ya take a bit of bread in your
pocket because she said, the little people, they used to call them , because she said there
was a little girl Savage, the Savage family over there where Mr. Stephen Power's house
is. They had a little girl and she went up one evening picking berries and she never came
home and they hunted for her everywhere. The following evening they found her and she
was dead. And they said it was the little people. And until Fr. O'Caliaghan came, they
used to say the same thing about the beach. He used to go down and bless the boats in
the Spring, and have the Rosary down there, and sprinkle holy water anywhere like that
where there was talk of anything, he crossed it, ya know. No one used to hear anything
after that.
Martin: [always remember though, that ye'd never want us to go down there in the
marsh, down under the hill.
Mary: No, sure we wouldn't be allowed to go down there after dark. People used to say
it, ya know; it must be true.
Martin: Even the few times we went clown, going across to the other side, sometimes
we'd take a shortcut and go across under Boland's falls. Laugh. When we got near the
river we wouldn't hang around too long. You 'd get up on the other side.
Descriptive Title Boland, Mary. Interview about living in Logy Bay-Middle Cove-Outer Cove
Category Migration/settlement
Festive events and games
Supernatural belief
Topic Churches
Salt-curing
Mummers
Keywords Fish processing
Person as Topic Boland, Mary (Hickey), 1920-2016
Father Daniel O'Callaghan, 1875-1948
O'Brien, Margaret (Boland), 1878?-1963
Description An interview with Mary Boland nee Hickey conducted in 2000 by Martin Boland for the Logy Bay-Middle Cove-Outer Cove Museum. Mary Boland talks about life in Logy Bay-Middle Cove-Outer Cove, including stories about St. Fancis of Assisi Church, local church services, midwifery, the St. John's Regatta and the Outer Cove Crews, the Second World War, being left-handed, cod liver and how it was made, the saw mill in Outer Cove, the fishery, making salt fish, collecting sea gull eggs, the Red Schoolhouse, capelin, Christmases, the seal hunt, mummering, the Hindenburg, Red Cliff Radar Station, ghosts and fairies.
Collector Boland, Martin, 1943-
Informant Boland, Mary (Hickey), 1920-2016
Location Depicted/Discussed Canada—Newfoundland and Labrador—Logy Bay-Middle Cove-Outer Cove
Recording Location Canada - Newfoundland and Labrador - Logy Bay-Middle Cove-Outer Cove
Collection Intangible Cultural Heritage - Avalon Peninsula
Rights CC BY-NC 2.0 CA
Transcript Interview with Mrs. Mary Boland April 2000 Martin: I'm Martin Boland and I'm interviewing my mother Mary. Today is the first of April in the year 2000 and we're doing the interview ,at her home, and the weather today is a lovely day. OK, so we'll do the first question now. And so Mom you can give your full name and birth date. Mary: Mary Frances Boland and I was born April 26, 1920. Martin: And your parents' names? Mary: Michael Hickey and Catherine Dyer and they were married in Nov 1904. Martin: Where were they married? Mary: They were man'ied in the Basilica now, 'twas the Cathedral then. Martin: They were married in Town? Mary: Well that was the parish then, see. We had no parish at that time. All of the Outer Cove and Middle Cove people went to Torbay and all the Logy Bay people went to the Basilica. Martin: Oh yeah. So you lived down there. Mary: I lived on the Rocky Hills, Martin: Your house was located where? Mary: Up on the Rocky Hills. Bert Hickey's house is there now. I wouldn't be able to pick out the exact spot. If the wall was there, I'd be able to pick it out. Martin: Bert's is not on the exact s ite? Mary: No, it is more or less over by the yard, towards where the barn was, but more like in the middle of the yard, from what I can see. Martin: Now Dave's house is where the barn was, isn't it? Mary: Yeah, it's a bit higher on the top of the slope, there was like a slope going down. Uncle Jim had a cellar close to where Martin's house was, and where Dave's house is now, Uncle Jim had a flake there. A fish flake. Martin: Is that right? Mary: Yeah. Martin: Now Brian's house, that's where the cellar was, isn't it? Mary: Yeah. Mal1in: Now you were born in Outer Cove. Mary: Yeah, I was born in the home. Mother, her aunt Mary was a midwife. Martin: Who was that? Mary: Aunt Mary Dyer. I think she was Grandfather Dyer's sister, ya know. That's who borne me. Martin: Oh yeah . Mary: And nearly all her children were borne, and Mrs. Liz Boland's, and all the older people. She was the midwife for all them. Martin: Oh yeah. She lived in Logy Bay, did she? Mary: Yeah. Mal1in: So was she a Dyer or was she married to a Dyer? Mary: I couldn't tell ya now for sure. But I figured she was Grandfather Dyer's sister, ya know. Martin: So now, you lived in Outer Cove until you got married, I guess, didn't ya? Mary: Yeah, I was twenty-two when I was married. Martin: And then you went to Town 'cause that's where Dad was workin'. Mary: Yeah, he was in the West End Fire Hall at the time. We were married the twenty­sixth of July 1942. Martin: Where to? Mary: In Outer Cove at St. Francis of Assisi Church, Fr. O'Callaghan. Martin: Yes, I saw a write-up in the paper on that. Mary: Oh yes, a Mr. Doyle, a friend of your Dad's wrote that. He used to go in the Fire Hall a lot, and play cards and billiards, ya know, and he was at our wedding. Eileen, my sister, she was Bridesmaid and John Boland, he was Best Man. He went over to England then in September or October that Fall, after the wedding. Martin: Oh yeah, he had the uniform on him in your wedding picture. Mary: He was in the Newfoundland militia and then he joined up to go overseas, you know. Martin: He was in the 59th Artillery, I think, was he? Mary: Yeah, the 59th And Rich Kinsella, he was in the War, too. Martin: Was he? Mary: Yeah. He went over that Fall, I think. Martin: Oh yes, down in the Museum in Outer Cove, they got a pair of puttees belonging to Rich Kinsella. Mary: Oh yeah, and there was a fella Dyer, I forget his name now, he was in the War too. And Aunt Mag O'Brien, she lost four sons in the War. Jim was in the States, he was sunk. And Mike, he was in the Merchant Marines. I forget now, there was Mike and Maurice and Jim and David. Martin: David? Mary: That was the youngest fella. He was torpedoed, poor fella. Martin: So they all died in the Second World War. And Jim, he was livin' in the States, was he? Mary: Yeah. Martin: Oh, so he was with the American Army? Mary: I don't know if it was the Army or Navy, but it was one of the Services. Martin: Oh, I didn't know that. Mary: Yeah. Martin: And the ones that were down here, were they all in the Merchant Marines? Mary: No, David was in the Army and Mike was in the Merchant Marines and Maurice, he was in the Army, I think, because he was in the Militia here, ya know. Martin: So she used to be Mary: The Most Bereaved Mother, yeah. Martin: Now that was your father's sister? Mary: Sister, yeah, and she was married to Maurice O'Brien. He was born down under where I lived, down in Brien's place, ya know, where them houses are to now. Martin: Oh, where that fell a Byrne from Torbay is. I thought Maurice Brien lived down at the bottom of Fox's Hill? Mary: No, that's after he got married. Aunt Mag's father bought that piece of land for them, ya know. Martin: Oh yeah. Mary: And Mrs. Julia Roche, his sister, she was bOI11 there too, down on the Rocky Hills. 2 Martin: [s that the one married to Jack Roche? Mary: No, to Jim Roche, Jack's father and Paddy's father. Paddy's mother and Jack's mother, that's where she was born. She was a Brien. Martin: So that's Paddy 'Parker', his mother was born in Brien's place. Mary: Yeah. Martin: And ah, so then, you lived then in Town and that's where we all grew up. But every summer we used to spend in Outer Cove. Mary: Yeah, we lived then up in the west end first, up on Job Street. And you went to Holy Cross first. Ye are all westenders. In the meantime, we spent every summer in Outer Cove. Your Dad's father had said to him: "Why don't you fix up the old house, clean it up." 'Cause he had everything into it, ya know, shovels and everythin g. He li ved there by himself He sa id: "Go down in the summertime." Dad said: "No b'y, by the time we'd get it straightened up, it'd be time to go out." They'd have to go to school. So anyway, he died in January 1946. And then the next summer, we went down in September. That's where you staned school, in Outer Cove. We stayed down until November that year. We came out in November. Martin: Yeah, J remember that. Mary: The following year we went down earlier when you got you r holidays. Martin: Oh so you went down in September to start fixing up the house? Mary: Oh yeah, cleaned it up. We went down once in a while, between times, ya know. He took out the old shovels and everything li ke that, ya know, to fix it up. Martin: I still remember going to schoo l down there. I remember Mary Boland, she's Mary Lynch now, teaching me, maki ng me write with my right hand, when I was left­handed. Mary: Don't say too much now, there will be people hearing that from all over. Mat1in: Laugh. Well I guess that was the custom then. Mary: Oh yeah, everybody. Sure I was the same way. I couldn't do nothin' with my right hand. Martin: You were left-handed and were made to write wi th your right. Mary: Yeah, 'twas the thing then. Everybody'd say you were unlucky and it was bad luck . But, sure Uncle Dave, he was left-handed. Mal1in: Who's that, your brother~ Mary: Yeah, he was left-handed also. Yeah, and Uncle Tommy Hickey. Martin: Uncle Tommy, too? Mary: Yeah. I suppose it was heredi tary or something like that. Martin: Now, who did you have teaching yo u? That was Miss Morrissey, was it? Mary: No, Kitty Croke. Martin: She was the one who switched you, was it? Mary: And Miss Sutton. She's a nun now, Sister Andrea. She was the second one. And then r went in the Hi gh School, Miss Morrissey. And I had to give up then in January because my mother broke her arm and she used to do laundry, you know. I had to stay home then. Poor Fr. O'Callaghan then came over to the house to see why they were keepin' me home. And he said: "She have a good intellect and it's a shame to keep her out of school. My father said: "There is nothing we can do abo ut it, ya know, because it is only natural she had to help her mother." Because I was only II then, be 12 in April. Martin: But all the rest stayed in schoo l, right? 3 Mary: Oh yeah, only Eileen was younger than me. Alme was worki ng in Sl. John's see and I was the next oldest. Martin: So after that, you didn't go back? Mary: No, I wouldn't go back then. Martin: Because you'd be behind? Mary: Yeah, I'd be behind. Martin: Now to go back for a second to where you lived then, when we went to school, we always lived in Town but spent our summers in Outer Cove. Mary: Yeah. Mmiin: And you still got property in Outer Cove and pay taxes there. Mary: Yeah that's right. Oh, I'm still Outer Cove, Rocky Hill s, because that's where my heart is. J was bom and raised there and I was happy there. Martin: You'll probably be buried there. Mary: Oh, J hope so. Martin: But not too soon though. Anyway, I guess I overlooked ask ing you your parents' names and the number of children they had. Mary: I mentioned that my mother was Catherine Dyer and my father was Michael Hickey. Grandmother Hickey was Maria Bolger from Torbay and her husband was Patrick Hickey. Mm1in: Now where did your grandparents live to? Mary: They lived down in th at house there (that house in the old photo with the car), down by the beach, that's where they li ved. Martin: The foundation is still down there by the beach. Mary: Yeah. That's up from the beach because the cellar is there on the road. He's right on the bottom of the road, that's where the house was. That's where [ was chri stened, right there. Martin: [n that house? Mary: Yeah, 'cause Fr O'Caliaghan was in Pouch Cove at the time. There was no Parish in Outer Cove until he moved th ere in 1920. In 1921 he started the Church in Outer Cove, that's the time 'twas built then. He came up, I think it was in 1919, or some time like th at, but he used to stay for a few months, I think, down to grandmother and grandfather Hickey's . He used to go to Mrs. Ryall's. The family was D Ryall. He chri stened him. He was a non-Cathol ic and he became a Catholic. He christened him. He was called Samuel Dani el. Martin: Oh that's what the D was for, was it? Mary: Samuel D Ryall. He always used to pray for him . They li ved on Ci rcular Road, in towards the Brewery, that way, ya know. Martin: Now just to talk about that house for a second, that's the house that was in that old picture there, and one time, before they built the big bridge, the road used to go through the yard there, didn't it? Mary: No, 'twas between the fence there, you can see it, and the cellar. The cellar was on the other side of the road. The yard was in to itself. Martin: Yeah, but after they built the big bridge, they changed the direction of the road, right? 4 Mary: Yeah, they put it in because they bought all that piece of land there. That hill there they used to call Caribou Hill and they took all of that away. There's not much of that left there now. They made the road wider there, ya know. Martin: So th at house was probably the closest one to the beach? Mary: Oh yeah. Martin: And it was the closest one to the river. Mary: Yeah. M3I1in: Now he had a fairly big fishing enterpri se, r think, your grandfather? Mary: No, it wasn't real bi g. He had three or four cod traps and he used to se ll li ver. He used to rot the liver in big puncheons. Martin: Big barrels. Mary: No, great big puncheons, 84 gallons, T think. The men used to sell the liver to him and he used to bring it out in the raw state, ya know, bring it out to Munn's. That's where he used to sell his liver, down there. That's enough of that. Martin: Now OK, your brothers and sisters. Mary: There were eleven of us. Martin: Eleven, was it? Mary: There was Pat and he died when he was only two years ol d. He had pneumonia. He'd be the age of Willie Boland, your Dad's brother. He was bom in March and Willie was born in May, that was 1906. And then there was Dan. He was born in 1907. Dave was born in November 1908. Then George, he was born in July 191 0. And th en there was Martin, he was born in 1912. He and Willie Croke were the one age; Martin was in January and Willie was in Jul y. Martin: Big Willie? Mary: Yeah. And there was Anne. r had two sisters. Martin: Aunt Anne, she was born in 19 13? Mary: Yeah and Mom lost a baby through a miscarriage between Martin and Anne. And then there was Pat, he was born in 19 16. And then there was two girl s, Marie and Margaret, but I'm not sure which was the oldest of them. M3I1in: They both died young? Mary: Yeah, one had diptheria, I think around 19 16; there was a bad flu on the go. One was born in 19 17 or 1918 or something like that, and I was bom in 1920. And then Eileen was the last of the family. She was born the twenty-second of November 192 1. Martin: Actually, you'll be 80 later this month, April 26. That qualifies you as a senior citizen anyway. Mary: Yes that's long gone. Martin: Now, when the crowd grew up, a lot of them went to the States. Mary: Yeah, well Dave would have been 20 in November, he went to the States in September 1928. And Dan went, him and Willie Houston went up to Montreal 'cause Willie Boland, your Dad's brother, was already up there. Mal1in: Oh, he was al ready up there? Mary: Oh yes, he went up in 1925, I think . Martin: I thought they all went up together, 'cause we got that picture down to the house wi th the three of them on it. 5 Mary: No, he went up a good while before them, three or four years, I th ink. He was married then, I think. Then Wil lie and Dan got together and said they'd go up and get some work up there, because the fishery wasn't too good, you know. Martin: Yeah. So they didn't stay up there. Mary: No they only stayed five or six months or something and they went on to the States 'cause Dan Houston was up there, and his sister the nun was up there. Martin: Did Willie Houston go down to the States, too? Mary: Yeah, he went down, and Dan. He stayed with Dan. Martin: But he didn't stay? Mary: He came home after a whil e. Martin: And Uncle George? Mary: George, he was in the Police Force in 1928 and he went to the States in 1930. Martin: Oh, so they all went fi shing up there, did they? Mary: That was the thing up there. Dave went fishin' wi th Dinny Boland, Mr. Will's brother. Martin: Did he? I didn't know that. Mary: Yeah he had one boat at that time and then he got another one afterwards. They said he was a wonderful man to get the fish, an ambitious man, he'd always have a boatload of fi sh. He seemed to know where the fish was to. Martin: Who was that, Din Boland? Mary: Yeah. Martin: I didn't know they went fishin' with him. Now your brother Dave, he used to fish out of New Bedford? Mary: No, that was when he got married, he went down to New Bedford. He got mate on a boat and she used to go in and out of New Bedford to land the fi sh. And that's where he met Violet, in Boston somewhere. She was Violet Wiseman from St. 10hn's. And they got married and that's where they lived until she di ed. Martin: But Din Boland fi shed out of Boston? Mary: Yeah, he had two boats after a whil e, the Irene B and the Pauline B, named after his two daughters. Martin: And then Aunt Anne went up there? Mary: Yeah, she went up. Uncle George bonded her in in 1935 first and she was up for 18 months. She came home then in lune. She stayed home for a year, and the follow ing year George bonded her in. Your Uncle Dave Houston went away that Fall to Boston. lust after he was up there, only a few months, he got drafted. So he went on to the war. They were going to get married, ya know. When he went up there, he got drafted and he had to go to the war. So they got married after th at. Martin: And Uncle Pat, he stayed home and went to Grand Falls? Mary: No, he was in the Police Force first. In 1939 he went in the Police Force and he got transferred to Grand Falls after a couple of years. He was out there and he met Diane, his wife. She was a McDonald. She was from out there somewhere and they got man·ied out there. Martin: And it was only you and Uncle Martin stayed home? Mary: Yeah, and Ei leen at the time. Martin: Oh, I was forgetting about her. Mary: My brother Martin was in the Fire Hall too, ya know, but he didn't like it. 6 Martin: I didn't know that. Mary: He went in it in 1942, but he couldn't stand it. He said: "bowing and doing drills and everything, you wouldn't know but you were in the AmlY." He didn't like it at all. So Uncle Davy, my father's brother, he had a truck and he went driving that on the roads, the year the southern shore road was paved, you know. So that's what he was on for the whole year. And then he was at that for a while. Martin: So Uncle Davy had trucks on the roads even then? Mary: Oh yeah, he was the first one to have a truck down there. He was in with the Government, see, he was always a Liberal. The Commission of Government was there then at that time. Martin: I remember when he had trucks on the road. Mary: And then Uncle Tommy got one. Mary: Yeah. Martin: And Uncle Martin, he stayed. Mary: Yeah, he got on with the Base then. He stayed there at the mechanic's place working on the trucks. Martin: Very good. Anyway are you getting tired? Mary: Oh no. Martin: So now the only ones that's left in Newfoundland are yourself and Uncle Pat. Mary: The rest are deceased except for Anne and Eileen in the States. There was eleven of us. Three died young, eight grew up and there's four of us left. Martin: Now I touched on it a bit earlier, about going to school, but Mary: Well r was going to school but I had to give up. r was in Grade Seven, I think, but r had to give up in January when my mother broke her ann. I had to help out with the laundry. Martin: So she did laundry for people in Town, did she? Mary: Oh yes, old Dr. Anderson and Judge Higgins and two or three bank managers. She did a big lot of washing. Martin: So they'd get the fresh air from Outer Cove on their clothes. Mary: Oh yes, she'd put them out in the open. And old Mrs. Ayre, she was a movie star or something, she belonged to New York; she didn't know anything, she'd be looking for capelin in January. She loved capel in. She'd say: "Are the capelin coming in today?" I'd say: "No ma'am, it'll be a long while before they'll be in. They won't come in until June." Martin: I guess in Town everything would be fairly smoky, all the houses would be burning coal. Mary: Yeah, wood and coal. Old mother Anderson, she was a Scottish nurse, he met her over there, ya know, old Dr Anderson, Tommy. PG, now, his son, he was a child specialist. Ye used to go to him. Martin: Yeah, I remember him. So he's a son of the Dr. Anderson your mother used to do the laundry for. Mary: Yeah, they had two daughters. One of them got man'ied to T&M Winter's son Gordon Winter, the Lieutenant Governor after. And the other marri ed a child doctor. Martin: They allmalTied money. Mary: Yeah, all married money. Martin: Now you went to school in Outer Cove. Where was the school to? Mary: Right there in the lane going over to where Paddy Power was. 7 Martin: Over where Jim Hickey is? Mary: That's where the school was. Mal1in: In the lane? Mary: No, on the side of the road there. Martin: On the same side where Jim Hickey is? Mary: Yeah, right on the corner there. One corner of the school was on the land there and it went up toward where Uncle Davy is. Mal1in: So was that a one room school house? Mary: No, there was two rooms in it. The small ones in one room up to grade 6, because grade 6 then was CHE, and then 7 up to 11 in Miss Mon·issey's school. Martin: So she taught high school. Mary: Yeah that was high school, 6 to II. Martin: I remember Dad talking about Miss Morrissey. Mary: Yeah, "Look at that there now." Martin: She was from out around the bay somewhere, wasn't she? Mary: Harbour Grace. Brother Strapp was her uncle, you know. He used to teach at St. Bon's. She was a good teacher. She went away then. She went away to Halifax, Mount St. Vincent, to get her BA. She didn't have a BA see, at that time, so she went away. It was supposed to be tlu·ee years but she did it in two. Now your Aunt Eileen had Grade 10 and was going in Grade II. When she went away, she never got her Grade II. Martin: Why, because they never had anyone to follow in behind Miss Morrissey? Mary: No high school teacher, no. She was a lovely teacher. She was only young, you know. Martin: So then, who were the grammar school teachers? You said there was two there in the one room. Mary: There was Kitty Croke; she was there 2 or 3 years. She went away in 1928. And then there was Miss Sutton, Kitty Sutton. She stayed 2 or 3 years and then she went in the Convent. Martin: So, who was the first teacher you had? Mary: Kitty Croke. Martin: Then after her was that one Sutton? Mary: Yeah, and then there was a Miss James there. The year before I started there was a one by the name of St. Croix. She belonged to up around the Southern Shore somewhere. I don't know where she went. Martin: The teachers didn't live in the school, did they? Mary: Oh, no. They had another school out in Logy Bay where Johnny Stokes is now. Then a fella Hearn bought it. He sold it then to Rose. So later when they tore that down, they had the High School then. Martin: Would there be many students in school then? Mary: There was only about four, r think, in my class, there could be more, I forget. Kitty Power was one, 'Cracks' they used to call her. Kitty Power in Middle Cove, she was then. Martin: In your class? Mary: No, she was next to me. She was sickly, she had a hump on her back. She fell when she was a baby and hurt her back, so she missed a lot of school. Martin: So she was behind you? 8 Mary: Yeah, then her brother was there, Jim . Two brothers, they were in Grade 2 or 3, like that. Mal1in: Do you remember anyone who was in your class? Mary: Mary Fox, Katie Boland, Lizzie Cahill. She's a bit older than me, she's 82 I think. She didn't go to school right away, her mother died, you know, in 1930 I think. Martin: She di ed in childbirth, didn 't she? Mary: Yeah, so that's all I can think on that now. Mm1in: So did ye have to take wood to the school for the stove? Mary: Yes, splits. You'd take a bundle of splits every week or so, you know. You'd bring them when you'd go back in the Fall so yo u'd have enough to light the stove in the cold weather. And they'd take up a collection and everyone would have to give $1 or $0.50 to buy coal. Martin: So they'd burn coal in the stove, too? Mary: Oh yeah, in a little potbellied stove they used to have then in both schools. Martin: So, now you said you had to brin g splits. What about junks of wood? Mary: No the men would bring the wood. Everyone would bring splits for 2 or 3 days in the Fall so that yo u'd have enough for the Winter. Martin: So, you wouldn't be bringing that all the time? Mary: Oh no, yo u'd bring it perhaps for a week. And then the men would get together and saw up the wood, and put it up, and have to put it in - they used to call it Dolly's place - 'twas a big room off of the school, a storeroom type of place. Martin: There'd be no li ghts, I suppose? Just the light of the windows. Mary: That's all , yeah. If they were having dances or anything, they'd have to have lanterns or something like that, lamps or something, you know. Martin: Would they have that in the school? Mary: Oh no, there was a great bi g space (all of this togeth er I suppose). They used to call it the big room. Miss Morrissey was on one end of the school and the other one was on the other end, and this big space was in between. Martin: Oh, so it was in that building? Mary: Oh yeah, it was a big place. Martin : What was it like, a house? Mary: No it was like a church, a saddle roof type. Martin: So it must have been a fair bit bigger th an the floor space of a house. Mary: Oh yes, it was longer. Martin: So how did you get to school? Hop in a car? Mary: Yeah, laugh. Like when th e stick was on the island (a tree across the river), we'd go that way. Martin: Oh, go down across the river below Jimmy Boland's? Mary: Yeah, but then in the winter we'd go down under Uncle Maurice Brien' s, down under Fox's Hill, we'd go down across the river there, and up over the hill. Mal1in: So in the summer you'd go down across 'the island', if there was a stick there. Mary: Yeah, a great big log going across the river. We'd walk across on that and up over that big old steep hill . Laugh. In the wi ntertime we'd go down around the river by Uncle Maurice's, and up. But sometimes the snow would be down there and we'd have to go on the road, go right around the road and go up Slater's Hill. Martin: What about when it was raining? 9 Mary: Yeah, you'd have to walk then; an old bandana or anything, maybe an old coat over your head. Martin: So that's the way ye'd cut across the river to go to school. Now, when we'd be down in Whelan's Falls swimming, we'd go up in Croke's place and go along under the meadows. Would they have school every day? Mary: Well, if it was real st0Il11Y, they wouldn't, but otherwise you'd have to go. Martin: Would the school year be much the same as it is now, like from September to June? Mary: Yeah, get the Summer off. But the CHE then would be later, late in ./une. Mal1in: That's the High School crowd? Mary: Yeah, they'd have to go. The primary crowd would be out a week or so earlier. Martin: When you were in school, did you have a desk? Mary: Oh yeah, old fashioned ones, two in a desk. Martin: And what did you use to write, a scribbler? Mary: A slate first when we were young, Grade 3 or 4 or 5. Mal1in: So you used to use a slate, did ya? Mary: Oh yeah, to write your letters and write your name, you know. And then you'd get scribblers after that. Martin: So how would you rub it out? Mary: You'd have to bring a little cloth and have it wet. And some wouldn't have it and they'd wipe it with their sleeve. I won't mention no names. Martin: And what would you write on it with? With chalk? Mary: No, 'twas a pencil about that (6 inches) long. 'Twas slate, a slate pencil. You had ha ifa dozen of'em because sometimes you'd break them off, and you'd have to write with the smaller part too. Martin: So that would make it a different color. Mary: That would make it white. It would turn white. It was slate, the same as what you were writing on. Martin: So you'd leave all that stuff in school, would you. Mary: Yeah, if you had any homework, you know, you'd have to bring it home. Martin: How long was that school down there? Mary: B'y, I don't know, 'twas a long while down there. Martin: That was there all while you went to school? Mary: Oh yes, and long, long before. Sure Dave and Dan went to school there. Martin: So when did they move from that up to the other school? Mary: Fr 0 ' Callaghan moved up there. When he got the Church and the house built and then he got the men, 'twas in the 1930s, I'd say about 1934 or 1935 he built the school up there. He took it down, you know, the other one. The men used to go down in the nighttime, and took it down. 'Cause they had the electric down there a good while before it came up to the Rocky Hills. And he got a good lot of lumber and he used it for that. Martin: You were saying about the electricity, when did it first come to Outer Cove? Mary: That come in the mid I 930s, I'd say around 1934. Martin: It never went to the Rocky Hills th en, did it? Mary: Oh God no, it never went there until, God I don't know when. It went up as far as Doran's, and up the other road. That was in my time. I'd say that was in the 1950s on the Rocky Hills. I don't know what time it came up there. It was a good while, I'd say it was to the late 1940s, because the Yanks came there and we used to have the lamp lighting. I'd say it was the late 1940s or 1950s. Martin: Did McDonalds ever get the lights? Mary: No, they never got them. Martin: So their house and ours were probably the only houses that never got them . Mary: John Fox, I don 't think they had them either. No, because Helen Hookey was the first one to get them up there when they built the houses down in Power's po lind, you know Stephen and Anne's place. They had a pound up there opposite John Fox's, on the other side, next to Willie Croke. And Jim O'Mara and them bought building lots down there. That's around the time that they got the lights down there. They might have got it a bit before that down below, Uncle Tommy and them. Crokes, Mrs. Minnie Croke, Willie and them, now they never had any. Martin: Willie that went away to the States, he never did get the lights? Mary: No, I don't think he did . Martin: No? And he left in 1955. I remember him saying that. Talkin ' about the lights, I remember when we were down in Outer Cove and Bolands got the lights over there, over to Mr. Will's, remember. Larance would come out in the nighttime when the Wrestling would be on TV, he'd come outside and wave the flashlight to let us know Wrestling was on, and we'd go over. Laugh. Mary: Yeah, Larance was home then. That was before he went away. It must be around the mid-fifties. I don't know, because once we went out of it, we wouldn't be down very much unti I we got the car, we'd go down in the summertime, ya know. But otherwise, we wouldn't be down in the wintertime. Martin: Now we were talking about the school and the Church. When was that built? Mary: In 1921 the first Mass was said there, r think. J think he (Fr. Dan) came up in 1919, or something like that. And then everyone used to help out. The priest got together with the people and he had the men do free labour to build it. It was all done with free labour, every bit of it. And some of them cut the logs down in Grandfather Hickey's place, big trees, you know. Martin: Where was that to? Mary: Up over Uncle Jim's, up on the Rocky Hills. He had a big piece of land there. And he had more down on the Point, somewhere down there. And there was Fennessey's in Middle Cove, they had a great big lot of timber over there. Fox's, I think, had some. Everyone would give large and what they couldn't get large enough, they'd buy it. And his house was built the same way. And then the women, they'd have to help out. The priest would have the young girls, we'd clean the house and the Church every month; scrub it in the Fall and in the Spring. Yeah, scrub the Church. We used to do it, the young people. And poor Mrs. Fox, she always used to clean the altar. Martin: What Mrs. Fox was that? Mary: Din's mother, ya know, Lizzie, my godmother. Martin: She was a Boland originally, wasn't she? Mr. Will's sister. Mary: Yeah, she'd go every Friday. She always did the altar and dusted it and take off the altar cloths and whatever wanted to be washed. And my mother, one day the priest was going arollnd and she was doing a bit of sewing, and he said: "My, you're a lovely hand to sew" She said: "No Father, I'm not very good at sewing." He said: "Yes, fused to look at my mother sewing and she did little small stitches." He said: "I have an alb II over there and it is all ripped. J wonder would you sew it for me?" She said: " Indeed J would. I'd be glad to do it. He said: "I'll give it to Maaary". He used to call me Maaary. She's a wonderful girl for working, cleaning, herself and Catherine. That's Uncle Jim's daughter Kitty, ya know. He used to get us to do his room upstairs. Poor Mary Walsh, he'd put her at something else, dusting. We used to do stuff like that. He wouldn't have to pay anyone. He'd save a lot of money by people helping out. We'd do the things that otherwise he'd have to pay for. Poor priest, he got the lovely Church built. And then, the Garden Party time, Mrs. Bride Coady, she'd be the head one over there, she'd always have a tea table. The Rocky Hills would have a tea table, and down in Outer Cove would have another one, and Logy Bay, and over in Middle Cove, they'd all have tables. And they'd all have little things for the children, refreshments for them and little prizes, and the men would be looking after that. They'd have the Garden Party before the Races, or maybe after. Martin: So what would they have on those tables? Mary: Well everybody would give a chicken. Everyone in the Pari sh would cook a chicken and bring it. And the night before the Garden Party, we'd go up to Mrs. Coady's and slice it all and get it all ready. And we'd buy a ham. That was Bride Coady. She was marri ed then and living up to the Rocky Hills and she was the head of the table. And we'd all help out and do it. We'd have everything cut up and we'd get the baker's bread in Town, and a pound of butter and tea, someone else would give tea. Everyone would give something. It wouldn't cost the Parish anything for the tea or the bread or what we put on the table. The only things they'd buy wou ld be the trinkets for the chi ldren that wou ld be on the wheel. Small children, soft drinks. Then the priest used to get a lot of donations in St. John's 'cause he was out there for so long. Martin: Yeah, so he'd know the crowd out there. Now before they had the Church down there, they'd go to Torbay, would they? Mary: Yeah, the people in Outer Cove and Middle Cove would go to Torbay, and the people in Logy Bay would go to St. John's. St. Joseph 's, or most of them would go to the Cathedral, the Basilica. And Mom was married out in the Basilica. That was her Parish. They used to get marri ed where the bride was belonged to. Martin: And so then, Fr. Dan, he was the first priest down here, wasn't he? Mary: Yeah, Fr. Clarke before him, he was down in Pouch Cove. He was an Irishman, too. He was over in Torbay for years. He died. Mal1in: So you were saying you were christened at your Grandfather's house, down by the beach. Mary: Yeah, that was before he got the house up there, see. Martin: He didn't have the Church built then? Mary: No, he stayed down there for a while. He used to go out to St. John's, because that was where he was, at the Palace, before he came down to Pouch Cove. Martin: So, wou ld he do the Christenings of all the people down there at that house? Mary: Oh, I don't know. I know I was christened down there. He did all the babies. know Jimmy Boland was 3 weeks older than me and Jolm Boland was 3 weeks younger than me. The 3 of us from the hill were Christened there. I think Anne and George and them, they were Christened in Torbay. At least he was because when he was getting married, Anne and I had to go over there and get his birth certificate. 12 Martin: So you were saying that the people in Middle Cove and Outer Cove used to go to Torbay to Church. How would they get over there? Mary: We'd walk. Anyone that felt like bringing their horse and wagon, they could drive over. But most would walk over and back. Yeah, three miles, that's all. We used to walk over there to a dance and walk back again in the night, ya know. Martin: Seems like a long way to go especially if the weather wasn't that good. Mary: Yeah, well they wouldn't miss Mass, they'd go. Martin: And the same thing for the people in Logy Bay going to Town? Mary: Yeah, they'd walk out. They were hard old roads. See they were used to it; they didn't know any other way. Martin: So I suppose a scattered one had a car? Mary: No one had a car, only the priest. And then Mike Dyer got one in Logy Bay. They were the only two cars up to the 1930s. And then Uncle Tommy got a little Ford, little wire wheels. Martin: A Model T or something, was it? Mary: Yeah, a Model T. And old Tom Kelly, he had one, and Martin Kelly. But they had them old tin lizzies - big high roofs on them, ya know. Martin: Yeah, so they were the first vehicles down here. Mary: Yeah, for the longest time Fr. O'Callaghan had it and that was all. Martin: Everybody would be look in' to hitch a ride with them? Mary: Yeah. Martin: So they wouldn't take the horse and box cart? Mary: Oh no, horse and express we'd have. But we used to walk. It was only across by McDonald's and up the road. That was nothing then, to walk that much. Martin: Yeah, but over to Torbay or Town was a fair distance. Mary: Yeah, we used to go over there. When Uncle George was getting married, we had to go over and get his birth certificate and we walked over and back again in the evening to get it. We had exercise then. We didn't mind it because that was the only way. I know, when I worked to Higgins', I'd walk from Circular Road down in the afternoon when I'd get off and then have to be in at II at night; leave at half past 9 or quarter past 9 to walk out. We'd have to be in at 10:30 other nights, but II :00 Sunday nights. Myself and Sue Smart. Sue used to work in on Monkstown Rd. I used to go in there with her because Mike wouldn't let her go to Town. She wanted to go before that but he wouldn't let her go. He said: "No, if Mary Hickey is going now, you can go out because we know who she is." He was right crooked with her, but I used to find him alright. Martin: You were saying that he used to run the sawmill over there. Mary: Yeah, that's who the priest gave it to, to run it. Martin: You were saying the priest used to have a sawmill down in Pouch Cove. Mary: Yeah. When they were sawing for the Church, my father was taking the board off the thing, and whatever happened, the board hopped, and his fingers struck the blade, and took the tops of his fingers. Martin: So he had that sawmill set up on what we used to call the highroad, across the road from Aunt Nell Smart's. Mary: Yeah. Martin: And that's where Mike Smart operated the mill? 13 Mary: No, first he had it there on the priest's avenue, you know, on the avenue going up to his house. He had it over there to be handy to the Church. And then, when the priest didn't want it, he gave it to him. He said: "you're the fittest one to have it because you knows how to use it, and you did all the sawing for the Church and the house." And he asked him ifhe wanted it, and he said yes he'd be glad. So he had all them old metal balTels, he had them cut down, you know, and that's what he used to put the roof and sides on it. Martin: So did he operate the sawmill for a long time then? I guess anyone building a house would use it. Mary: Oh yes b'y, he got an awful lot of customers who wanted wood sawed. I think my father got some sawed when he was building a small barn. We had a great big barn first, and he said it was too big because we had a cow, and when we got older, he didn't want the cow. We had it up to the time we were growing and got big, and he had the cow for mi Ik for us. So after that, he didn't need it then. Martin: So when Mike Smart died then, that was about 55 years ago, what happened to the sawmill then? Mary: That was gone before that because he was sick before he died. I don't know, I think he might have sold it to a fella in on the POliugal Cove Road or somewhere like that. He had an awful lot of people - Fennessey's gave him, they had lovely timber over there, Mike Fennessey and Mogue, and they gave a lot of the great big sticks, tall lumber, they gave a lot of the big sticks to the priest for the Church and the house. All the board, mostly rough lumber, went into it. Martin: Now we'll change the subject a little bit and talk about the fishery. When you were growing up, did most people in Outer Cove take part in the fishery? Mary: Oh yeah, clear of Larry and Martin, your dad's father, they only used to go out in the bay, just out past the moorings, out by the Point, 'cause they only had a dory, ya know. Poor old Larry, I suppose he wasn't able to row very good. Most people though had dories and my father had a motor boat. Not a big trap skiff now, but a big motor boat and a dory. So he used to go out past the Point, out by the Cobbler, that way. Up off of Red Head to the fishing grounds up there. Good places for the fish. Sometimes they'd get more than they could handle, when the traps would be on. For six weeks the traps would be out. They used to give it to my father, and Houstons, and Mr. Jim Coady would get a load off of them. They used to get a lot of fish off of the traps, 'cause they had three traps, I think it was. My father had 'em first, but then he got away from them. His father gave him one and then he got another one for himself. But it was too much for him. He had to do the potatoes and that ya know. Martin: Did anyone go after the fishery in a big way? Mary: My grandfather, but that was before my time. Mr. Coady, and Tom Rourke's father and Mr. Jack Doran and Mic Doran and Mr. Tom Croke - he was a lovely hand to make fish. My father used to say he was the nicest fish maker down there because he used to have real nice white fish - never cracked or broken or anything. He used to get a good price for it then when it 'd be good. But if it was anyways cracked with the sun, or soft, or too much salt or anything, they'd pass it as West Indies. They'd give ya little or nothing for it. Martin: Oh yeah, so they used to grade it then. 14 Mary: Yeah, they had cullers. The merchants used to cull the fish, and they'd get them to cull it. And sometimes they'd flick out good fish just to get it cheaper for the merchants, ya know. Martin: So what were the grades they'd have? Mary: They'd have West Indies. That was the old, cracked and damp and that'd get $1.50 or perhaps $2.00 a quintal. And then there was Merchantable, big Madeira and Little Madeira, and there was Spanish, that was the best quality. There was a couple of good quality fish, and another would be fa irly good you know. Martin: You don't remember what they used to get for fish at that time, do ya? Mary: Well, they'd $5 or $6 a quintal. It depended on the quality. If you got bad weather, you'd get $2 or $2.50 for it. Some days they wouldn't take it at all; you'd have to take it home and throw it in the dump. Martin: Now, that was all salted, wasn't it? Mary: Yeah, salted fish. Martin: How would they measure a quintal? A quintal was a little ban·el, wasn't it? Mary: Four bartubs was roughly a quintal, 112 pounds. Then they'd weigh it when they'd go to Town. They used to bring out around 3 or 4 quintals with the horse and long cart. Martin: So they'd grade it out there and pay you accordingly? Mary: Yeah, they'd grade it. Martin: What would detemline the quality of the fish? I suppose a lot of it would be the weather. Mary: The weather. See, mostly in the Summertime, you'd get the capelin weather, 'twas foggy and wet and you can't dry it, ya know. And if you leaves it too long in the salt, when it would dry it would be so salty, it would crack down the center. And you wouldn't get the quality. September and late August was the best time to cure the fish. Then the wind would be getting dryer and sunnier and harder and it would dry faster. But from June on until the last of July, the weather would be bad. In June, 'twas fog with the capelin. Martin: So the best weather was windy and dry and sunny. Mary: Yeah, the Fall. Martin: So how would they get that to Town then? Mary: Horse and long cart. They'd bring out 3 or 4 quintals of fish on it. They'd have it ready. Martin: They'd store it on a flake or in a stage somewhere, would they? Mary: No, we had a big flake there where the dump was to. It used to go from the comer up past the bam, right out to the end of the dump. Before that we had another one above that between Pop's cellar and the fence, past that because my father told him to build a cellar there one time because he didn't want it for anything. And the flake ran from his cellar over to Pop's fence; he had a big flake up there. So then when the highroads were done, they made this dump there, ya know. My father wanted it because he said it would be a grand place to put a flake. So he put the flake down there because it was handi er to go out and make it and spread it. And sometimes, when you'd get the weather, you couldn't dry it or nothing at all. You'd salt it in puncheons, I suppose you don't remember the puncheons. Martin: How big did you say they were? How many gallons? 15 Mary: Eighty-four. Yeah, 'cause that used to be in our Table Book: 84 gallons in a puncheon. I can always remember that. And 112 pounds in a quintal. Martin: So, what would come in a puncheon? Mary: Molasses. Baine 10hnsons would sell it. We used to get a gallon of molasses every time we went to Town. There was "Fancy", that was a light molasses. The other was dark. There was a name on it but I can't think of it now. The 'fancy' was nice. The fishermen then would be after the merchants for the puncheons. My father used to get them off of Baine 10hnsons because he used to deal with them. His father used to deal with them. And they'd sell them for perhaps $5.00 or so. And they'd have to wash that out. You'd salt it for 4 or 5 days, leave it in salt. And then they'd have to get water out of the river and wash the salt offofit. And put it in a bulk overnight in the stage. Then turn it up the next day and spread it. If you could get weather, it'd dry in a week or so. Then you'd put it in a large bulk on the flake, then cover it over with a tarpaulin or something. And they'd leave it there for a few days. As soon as it was dry, they'd take it to Town. They'd bring it out as it dried. 'Twould be mid-August before they got some of it dried. So who would look after drying all the fish. Mary: We would, myself and Anne. We used to spread it. Martin: So it would be mainly women and the girls? Mary: Yeah, the men would be out fishing. My father would be up at three o'clock in the morning getting the boat ready. Then Martin, poor old Dan, I can remember. Dave and Dan were with him first, ya know. He'd be gone down first, and he 'd say: "Now hurry up by's and don't be too long. He'd call Dan and go on down. And Dave'd be after Dan. Dan was right slow, ya know, takin' his time. "Dave, what's the matter with you Dave? Dave, take your time." "Father will be down now waiting for us and he' ll be going mad when we goes down. We're too late." "Take your time," he said. Dan was right carefree, happy go lucky. But Dave would be going his length to get down. They'd go out around 4:00 AM. Martin: Now your Grandfather Patrick was fairly big in the fishery, wasn't he? Mary: Oh yes, he had a lot of traps. My father was small. You had to have a crowd for a trap because you had to have about 6 or 7 people in, one at one end of the boat, and three on either side. Martin: So he had a trap boat? Mary: Yes he had two boats. Martin: He did, did he? Along with a smaller one? Mary: Yeah, he had dories and all that, ya know. Martin: Was there anybody else big at it like him? Mary: Mr. Jim Roach, he had one trap, but then he gave it up after a while. He was a blacksmith, see. Martin: Oh yeah, was it his son that fell over the cliff. Mary: They said he was beat up and threw over it, ya know. It's a sin, ya know. He was the nicest kind of a person, so kind and good natured, but when he'd get drunk, he was a different person altogether. He married a girl out in Fox Harbour. She was Mary, I forget who now. She was a nice person too. She was here in Town working. He was a blacksmith, too, like his father. He was threw over the Battery out there, ya know. They found him down on the bottom of the cliff. He was only young too. They had one little boy Jimmy. He went away then to the States. 16 Martin: Now when they went out fishing, apart from the ones on the big boats, if somebody was in a motorboat, they'd have what, a few nets or something, would they? Mary: No, they'd have trawls. That's what my father had. Martin: Would there be many in a boat for the trawls? Mary: Well, two of them, ya know. They had to row. A lot of them had a large dory, but they put a motor in it and that was a good help for them. My father had a big motorboat and a dory. And when the fish would be plentiful, he'd have the dory tied on and pull it along because he used to get a lot of fish out of the trap. His father used to give it to him. They couldn't hand le it themselves, ya know. Martin: So there would only be two in that boat and when they'd get their load, they'd come on in? Mary: Come on in then, yeah. Martin: So how would they unload it? Mary: Well , they'd go down with the horse then. Pat would have to go down, and sometimes I'd have to go down because he'd have to go over to the Church - he was on the altar. So I'd bring down the horse then. And they had two big drays; remember the drays Boland's had over to the house? Well they'd bring down the dray and a swing and put the horse into the dray and bring it down to the landwash and unload the boat out of that. Martin: Oh, so they'd just bring the boat into the landwash, they wouldn't try and haul it up or anything? Mary: Well yes, they'd have it up out of the water, ya know, enough so they'd get the fish off of it. They'd get two prongs then and prong it into the dray, and bring it up to the stage, and throw it into the stage, and then they'd split it and gut it up there. The stage my father had used to go right out to the end of the river. On that picture there now. You can see the end of the stage. Martin: Oh yeah, and for a long time, that stage that Uncle Tommy had his boat in used to go right across the river. Mary: Yeah that was down further. Martin: Then they cut it off, right? Mary: Yeah, and he'd have a bucket there with a rope on it, and they'd dip up the water and haul it up over the landing. He had a little landing going out over the river, my father had, on the stage. Martin: They'd haul the water up to wash the fish? Mary: Yeah, he had a puncheon-tub, a sawed-off puncheon, half, and they'd put the fish in that, and throw the water in it, and wash it. When they were going to sa lt it, they had to wash it first. There was a lot of work to it b'y, ya know, heavy work. Martin: Now there was other ones that didn't have a motor boat. Mary: They'd have to row. Martin: So they'd have a dory, like Grandad Boland, and some of them. Mary: Yeah, they used to only go out in the bay there, just out past the moorings there, the comer of the Point, and they'd set a few trawls there. They usen 't to get very much. Sometimes they would. Mat1in: He used to build houses and stuff like that as well, didn't he? Mary: Yeah, he used to build houses. He built two or three houses over on Bell Island one summer. My father had him build a cellar for us. Another time he had him doing 17 something with the house; I don't know what, it was leaking or something. A fellow in Torbay took the d0Jl11er windows off of it, and he put a straight roof on it. Martin: Yeah, now they used to get the liver and put it in something. Mary: A big puncheon. And they'd leave it rot and then they'd dip the oil offofit and bring it out to Munn's. Martin: How would they do that? Put it in another barrel? Mary: Yeah, they had an oil barrel, and up to Aunt Amlie Kinsella's there, where Dan Kinsella lived, there was a little river running down there and he used to put it in the liver house. Martin: Where was that? Mary: It was down below Dan's house, next to the river there. Martin: So it was on the lower side of the Lower Road? Mary: Yeah. When it would ferment, they'd dip it off and bring it out to Munn's; and Gerald Doyle used to buy it. It was in the raw state. It wasn't refined or anyth in g. They used to refine it out there. Martin : So the trawls that they'd have, they were all hook and line? Mary: Yeah, they were little tiny hooks, about the length of your finger. They'd have a little loop on it for to put the twine on, ganglin' twine they used to call it. They'd buy it up to Neyle Soper. It was a heavy line but it was only a fine line. And my father would be making trawl, 'twas only about that long (16-18 inches). Each line they'd put on the trawl, which was a big long fishing lin e. And then the hook would be on the little line, so far apart. Martin: I remember one summer, the sU lllmer I was out a few times with Mr. Coady and Jim. And we'd be runnin' out that trawl, right, and Jim would be feedin' it out, and every now and then he'd get a hook caught in the hand. It wasn't easy to do. The boat was moving around and you're tryin' to feed that out. Mary: No, you'd have to watch what you were doing, I'll tell you that. Martin: A lot of times he got a hook caught in his hands. Mary: Yeah, my father got one one time. He was going the whole summer out to the Doctor with it. It got infected and when he got finished, that finger was as big, it was like 3 fingers together. And the nail of it was like that, and the rest of it was right big. Martin: Remember, they used to get pups. Mary: Salt water pups, yeah. Like under the hair you'd get a pussy pimple. Poor Pat Hickey, Uncle Jim's Pat got them one summer, 0 my God, all his anns was covered with 'em. He had 5 or 6 around there, and he had another on the back of his hand. He just about went right foolish. They got right sore. I guess it was the ilTitation of the clothes and sa lt water and dirt and everything else, I suppose, fish guts and all that. That's what they called them, salt water pups. Martin: And what about the gardens and all that stuff. Mary: M ysel f and Anne, we used to earth the potatoes. You know where the road is going up to Mike's now, all that big thing was a garden, potatoes. Martin: The big hill? Mary: Yeah, and another one further over, we used to call the stumps. My father cleared part of it, and myselfand Annie, most summers earthed them with the shovel. Martin: Didn't ye use the horse? 18 Mary: No, 'twas too hilly. We were afraid of the horse. My father was fishing, and when we'd come home in the evenings, a couple of summers, we did it, myself and Anne. She said: "We'll do that for poor Pop." So we used to do it. We'd go early in the morning and late in the evening. Sometimes they wouldn't get up from the beach until lIar 12, if they got any kind of fish, you know, any amount. Martin: That was a hard hill anyway. Mary: Yeah and we used to shovel that. Martin: Didn't you say that a horse and cart turned over up there one time? Mary: Oh, up on the car road, you know, going up. Well just as you gets up to the top of it, there was a short tum going into the pit, and coming out of it. I think Pat had it. He was taking heads or capel in or something up to bury it there 'cause it was away from the house. And when he was coming out, whatever happened, he mighn't be minding what he was doin', and the next thing, the cart tipped over and the horse fell down and skinned the side of his leg. And Mom was out by the side of the house and she said: "Merciful Virgin, the horse is after falling down. Pat had the horse up there and I don't know if he's killed or what." So she said: "Go on up and see what happened." Laugh. So I went up and Pat was trying to get the horse up. I said: "Take the harness off him b'y. You're trying to get him up with the harness on. Don't be so stunned." The horse was kicking and going mad. He said: "I got such a fright, girl, I didn't know what I was doin'." The horse jumped up then. Martin: Well it was a hard hill anyway. You wouldn't cut that hill with a mowing machine. Mary: Indeed you wouldn't, no b'y. Poor father used to call it Mount Calvary. Martin: I don't think our old hill over there was any better. Mary: Yeah. Grandfather, when he bought the ground, the house was on the ground and all, ya know. He bought the whole thing for my father because he was the oldest. And he said: ''I'm going to sleep up there now this winter, myself and Maria, and see what 'tis like up there." So he said: "\'11 never go up there again. Bloody Mount Calvary. I got me nose frost burnt up there in the bed." Laugh. I can always remember, he used to come into the house. He had a grey beard and a whisker and he always used to rub it at me. I used to be afraid of it, ya know, because \ was only small then. I used to run away. And he said: ''I'l l never go up there again." I can remember him saying it as well as anything. "I'll never sleep up there anymore." He used to torn1ent us: "You'll get your toes burnt up there." Maltin: Yeah, I guess it used to catch a lot of wind and everything up there on the hill. Mary: 'Twas nice though. Martin: It probably wasn't as comfortable a house as what he was used to. Mary: No, down there, for sure. He was down by the river first, and then he went up to the other place, and there's not much wind up there either. He wanted to see what it was like, I suppose. He bought it before my father was married. Martin: Ye used to do most of your own gardening? Mary: Yeah, while the fishing was on, and then mom had the laundry. Martin: Who used to cut the hay and stuff like that. Mary: They used to cut that in the evenings. Martin: When they came home? Mary: Yeah. They wouldn't have time to do the fish or anything, ya know. 19 Martin: Is that the way most of the crowd were down here? Mary: Yeah, everybody had to do that then. Martin: Now would they have much cattle or horses ar anything like that? Mary: My father always had a horse, like that big one in the book there, Moll. My father paid $320 for her. He bought that off of Mike O'Brien, MJ O'Brien. He was the dealer in horses then, 'cause there was no cars, ya know. And she came from PEL Just like selling the cars now, he was the salesman for horses. So he bought her. At that time she was $320. Mal1in: Wow, that was a lot of money then. Mary: A lot of money then, yeah. He used to show them pictures of them, ya know. So he saw this one and she was a lovely horse. Anne is up on her back there in the album. And then, another time he got another one, but he sold her 'cause she was kind of wild. She was called Belle, T think. Martin: So ye always kept one horse, was it? Mary: And a cow. Mm1in: Just one? Mary: Yeah, just enough for our own use. Martin: Is that what most people would do then? Mary: No b'y. Bolands had a cow, Mr. Will. Martin: Now he had more than one in later years, didn't he? Mary: No he had a horse and a cow. He might have had a cow and a heiffer and a couple of small ones. He'd sell them to Pines or someone. We had a little one too, and we sold him to Cyril Pine, I think. Martin: I thought Mr. Will had haifa dozen head of cattle. Mary: No. Martin: I guess he didn't. Mary: He always had a mi lking cow. And Houstons. Martin: What about other animals? Mary: We had hens. And then we had a goat. When the crowd got small, then my father got a goat. He didn't get her, this Dolly Welsh, she brought him home one from Harbour Grace and she gave it to him. Martin : Is that the one you were saying "Dolly's Room"? Mary: Yeah, Dolly's Room. She had it up in Rourke's Lane. She had a little store in the house, a small little bungalow. And she used to go over every now and then to see her people. Martin: So how come she brought him back the goat? Mary: She brought him back the goat because no one used to sell them, ya know. So this was grey and white and she used to give the nicest milk you ever tasted. Right thick. She came from PEL Somebody was up and brought them down a goat. And she was a kid out of it. Martin: Yeah. Now were you saying someone used to torment the old goat? Mary: Pat. When Pat was young, poor Mrs. Whelan, he used to get down out in the yard, and Mom used to go after him with a stick. He'd get the goat when she was young, see, they were right playful when they were young, goats are, like a dog. And he used to go after her like this and she'd make the puck at him. And one day he came in with his aml skinned off. And Mom said: " It's good enough for ya. I hope she skinned the back 20 offofya." Laugh. Anyway, when we'd leave her clear in the spring, we had to have her tied up until the first of May, you know, you couldn't leave her go, she'd go down to Mrs. Whelan's. One time she went down and she got potatoes down there. Mrs. Whelan always used to have a small bucket of potatoes out there to boil for the hens, and put some corn meal, cattle feed, on them. And this day anyway, she went down and she got the potatoes. And every other day, just as she got clear, she'd go down to Whelan's. And we were watchin' her, ya know, and she'd go back like that, and she'd make the big pounce at the door and drive it in. And sometimes Mrs. Whelan would be down on the back feeding the horse or something, and she came up, and here the goat had nearly all the potatoes gone. And she'd go down again the next day then and we watched her then and Mrs. Whelan came out with the broom and she gave her 3 or 4 whacks across the back with it. And she just went up the laneway and stopped and just tumed around and looked at her. She was real saucy b'y. Now Pat had her like it from pucking with her when she was young. Because it was a novelty for us to have a goat, ya know. And he drove her nuts. Martin: Now other people used to have goats too, didn't they? Mary: Oh everybody. Boland's, your Dad's father, had a goat. And Mrs. Houston and Foxes had them. Everyone had 'em. Martin: I remember Dad saying that they used to send the goats in the summertime down in the Cobbler. Mary: Down in the Cobbler when they'd have the kids in the spring. I remember a couple of times my father put 'em down there and Pat would go down in the Fall and bring them up out of it. Martin: Yeah, they used to go climbing the cliffs after them. Mary: Yeah, and the gulls eggs. They used to bring down the gulls eggs. I wouldn't eat them though. Pat tried them a few times, and Martin. Martin: Dad used to eat them too, didn't he? Mary: Yes. I'd be afraid they'd be bad, hatching on them or something, ya know. remember one time Pat fried them and there was an old smell of fish off of them. I think they were half bad. Oh my, the stink of fish off of it; so he threw it out. I don't think he fried them after. But they were great big eggs, ya know. They had grey shells with speckled colors on them, green and white speckles. Martin: I don't think I'd want to eat them now. Mary: No. Martin: But at that time it would probably be alright because the gulls would eat fish, right. Mary: Yeah, and in the Spring the hens wouldn't be laying, early in the Spring. But they'd go down right early in April and May, and go right down over the cliff and get them. Mal1in: I remember Uncle Dave Houston telling me that him and Dad and John Boland and some others used to go down climbing the cliffs after the eggs, and stuff like that. Mary: Yes they used to go down over the cliffs. I don't IGloW how some of them weren't killed. The cliff down there is pretty steep. And then there 's undermines, old sandy stuff, on the rocks. 'Tis a wonder they weren't killed. Martin: Now did one of those goats eat the clothes off the line or something? Mary: Yeah that's that old one. 21 Martin: What, yours? Mary: Yeah, our goat eat them on one woman, Mrs. Anderson, but she didn't care if the goat eat what she had so long as they were dried outside. I never seen such an old thing as she was. And one time there was a tablecloth and a sheet went right up by the bog pond gap. That's where I fou nd them in the Spring. Mom sa id: "She' ll eat me now." Mom told her and she said: "My child, don't worry about that. Get that when the snow goes. That shows you have them dri ed out. That's all she made of it. She was a Scottish nurse. Old Dr. Anderson marri ed her. Martin: I guess they liked the smell of the fresh air. Mary: She came in one evening in October. Herself and the Doctor, every day they'd go down and they'd go over by the Point, you know where they pulls in, over by Stacks, and they'd stop there and watch the water. And then when the bridge got there, they 'd park on th at just before the bridge and watch out around. But she came in one evening in October, she asked if she could come in and waml herself. We said: "Yes ma'am, come on in." And we were just going ironing and Mom saw the car stop and she said: "My God, that auld thing, she's going to come in here. Laugh. The Doctor stayed in the car, he didn 't come in . But she was cold and she wanted to waml herself and she come in and she said: "Well Mrs. Hickey, anyone that have this should never be sick down here because this is the most beautiful place in the world." Mom sa id: "Well ma'am, if you were down here in the middle of the Winter you wouldn 't say that. And trying to dry clothes." "Well" she said " I'm telling you, I know you must dry th em outside because I often gets the clothes in the wintertime and the air'd be strong with the frost in it. I used to sniff them for hours. And she said th at anyone that had anyway good health at all should never be sick, have TB or anything here because the fresh air is priceless. Martin : I guess in Town, there 'd be smoke and soot allover the place. Mary: Yeah, everyone had coal then, ya know, and all the houses were so close together. Up until the snow would come, they'd be down every day for a drive. About 3 or 4 o'clock you'd see them go down. Every single day. This evening, it was sometime in October, and it was cold. It was a nice sunny day but it was cold. And she said: "We stopped too long. But it was so beautiful to see the water blowing up against the cl iff, and the whi te surf. We'd breathe in the air. You don't realize it because you were bom and raised here, but to go out of the ci ty, and go down there and breathe that, you'd have to be healthy." Martin : I don't say she'd sniff too much ifshe was down there in the summertime with the piles of capel in on the road. Mary: No you wouldn 't get a nice smell then. And Mom said: "If you were here in the wintertime you wouldn't say that." Martin: I remember being down there as you ng fellas, we'd be down to the beach, and you know the way they used to put their piles of capelin, sure they'd have piles of capelin goi ng up the Lower Rd, right up over Slater's Hill. And that'd be there for weeks, wouldn 't it. Mary: Yes, Well Nathan Barnes over there in the White Hill s, and Cooks and all them used to come down for capelin and they used to have them right up, nearly up to Doran's Lane up there, and nearly up to Uncle Davy's (Hickey). Martin: So they'd be there for weeks? Mary: Yes, they'd be there rotted. 22 Martin: And I stil l remember seein' 'em, the people from Town wou ld be down and they'd have the handkerchiefs up to their faces, and we'd be there laughin' at them. Mary: Yes, my God. Martin: Now, with regard to the Regatta, I suppose everybody would go out to the Regatta, wouldn't they? Mary: Yes, everybody would go out to the Regatta. Well Mr. Fox, now, I never remembers him going out. Martin: Is that right? Mary: No, he'd never go. Mr. Coady used to go when he was young. And Mr. Will Boland, he never went either. Martin: Didn't he? Mary: No. Crokes now, Mr. Din Croke and Mr. Tom Croke, they went. Martin: Most of the crowd did. Mary: He was rowing see, Mr. Din Croke. In later years he didn't go because he wasn't very well. Martin: I'd say there was always rivalry there, with Torbay especially. Mary: With Torbay, they'd be fightin'. One year myself and Anne stood at the head of the pond and there was 2 or 3 old Torbay ones in there. Anne was singing out for Outer Cove as hard as she could, and of course, they weren't saying nothing, only taking it all aboard. And they went down and rowed back, and anyway, Torbay won. And the next thing, Anne knew nothing when this one went over, her name was Eustace, I think, and she went over and she said: "Now come on Outer Cove. Where are they to now?" And Anne said: "Oh, they're only playing with them." Anne turned around right quick and here was that old one saying: "Now come on Outer Cove. " Laugh Martin: Some of them would take it personally. Mary: Oh, right bitter. Martin: Yeah, there was always rivalry, I guess. And do you ever remember things going on at the Regatta, like I believe, one time there was 2 or 3 of them drowned, wasn't it? Mary: Oh yeah, that was before my time. Maltin: I think they were from Torbay, ifI'm not mistaken. Mary: One of them was from Torbay, I think, maybe two. I think one boat went aboard of another turning the buoys, but I don't remember the details. Martin: So for the Regatta, would everybody walk out and walk back again. Mary: Walk back again, yeah. Sometimes someone would pick you up going home in the evening, but you'd walk out in the morning. Martin: And walk around all day. Mary: Yeah, sometimes your feet would be so sore, walking on the rocky road. We used to stop a scattered time and empty out our shoes because you'd be walking in on the side and the old loose sand and everything. There'd be blisters on your feet sometimes, you know. Martin: Yeah. Mary: We wouldn't care, we'd go. My father would be up at six and get his breakfast. "Come on now boys if you're going to the Races, the thing is starting at 8 o'clock. He'd be going out then at halfpast seven. He'd go across McDonalds, that way, ya know. And some of the crowd, Uncle Davy or someone would pick him up. 23 Martin: You were saying something last week about Ross' place. Mary: Yeah, all that land where the river runs in across the pond from the boathouse, where Pepperell was, that was all a big farm then. It started there at that road. Mal1in: Oh yeah, that's the Boulevard there in the background. Mary: Yeah. Martin: What about the Military? Did any of them serve? Mary: Well John Boland did. And Rich Kinsella, he was in England, he didn 't see any action. Mal1in: Now, your aunt Mary: Mag Brien. She was always the most bereaved mother in the Remembrance Day ceremonies on Nov. II . She lost four sons in the Second World War. She lost Jim and Mike and Dave and Maurice. Dave and Maurice was torpedoed. And Jim was in the American anned forces - he was gone to the States to live. And he was drowned. Martin: And what about the other fella. Mary: Mike, he was in the Merchant Navy and he was killed overseas somewhere. And poor Maurice, they never got his body, he was in the Navy. And they never got Jim either. Martin: Some of them were in the Merchant Marine? Mary: Jim was, and Mike. Martin : [ guess the Merchant Marine weren't the Armed Forces as such. They brought supplies over. Mary: Yeah, bringing supplies over, th at's how they got torpedoed. They had to bring supplies over to the different bases in England. Martin: These are the ones that they are only recogni zing now. Remember George Baker was on the news a while ago. Mary: Yeah, but they served their country though. They had the most danger because the sea was the worse place then to travel. Martin: And they couldn't fi ght back. Mary: No, they couldn't fight back. Food was scarce for the soldiers. They had to keep it going to them. Martin: Did ye have any traditions in Outer Cove at Chri stmastime? Did people go around in the Mummers th en, or Jannyin g, or whatever you call it? Mary: You'd keep the 12 days of Chri stmas then. Like Christmas Eve, you'd go to Midnight Mass. The next day yo u'd have your dinner and then Christmas night, there was always somebody came to the house. My father would have Houstons and Dave and Willy and Johnny. Jim Coady would come down in the daytime. And th ere'd be Jack Whelan, and poor Will Fox would come up sometim es, he was kind of shy. And down in the Cove th en Willy Croke and Din Fox and all the ones Martin would go around with. (Young Willy didn't come because he was yo unger.) Willy Boland, when they were home, when Dan and them were home, their crowd would come you know. But in my time, [ remember everyone would come to the house Christmas night. Next night would be Boxing night and some would go to TOt'bay to a dance. I often went over - walk over and walk home. Well not often, I didn 't like Torbay very much. One year we walked home it was right cold and bitter. I said I'm not going over there no more. Dad was working. 'Twas before [was married, myself and Eileen and Mary Fox and Kitty McDonald and Helen Hookey went over. Kitty drove us cracked to go. And when she 24 got over, th en she took off and ran the whole way from Torbay Hall right down to Motion nearly. And Helen went with her. And here was Eileen and Mary Fox and myselfby ourselves. We couldn't run then, not after being at the dance. We took our time. It was a real nice night, but it was cold. Down by Bulger's Lane three guys jumped Ei leen and started to carry her off. When I realized what happened, I looked around for something and saw an axe in Mac O'Brien's chopping block on the left side orthe road. I grabbed it and said: "Let her go or I'll cut your arms off." Two of them did and took off. One of them said: "Come on Joe," and he finally let her go and took off too. We went on then and I took the axe home with me. The next day my father noticed the axe so I told him what happened. Martin said that was one of the Whites. He had a reputation for abusing girl s. My fa ther knew Mac O'Brien and when he went to Town, he took the axe out to the East End stores for O'Brien to get when he went there. Martin: So why did Kitty run? Mary: I don't know - just to get herselfwann. And Kitty would take a fit of laughing then and you would hear her all over - herse lf and Diddles. And the next night then, the crowd would come dressed in the mummers. Sometimes they'd come in, more times they'd go on. They'd go over to Pop's then. Poor Aunt Annie, she was kind of small and she had a big crowd too. She didn 't care for that. Fools they used to call them, going around in the fools. Martin: So how were they dressed up? Mary: They'd have sheets on. Some would have cotton blankets, ya know, with their faces covered over. Most times yo u'd be dressed up like a man. Young fell as, ya know, would have an old pair of underwear over their clothes, and a piece over their face, an old shi rt or somethin g. And they'd try to haul the thing off of your face. Martin: So it was a lot like the Mummers Song? Mary: Yeah, same as th at. Martin: Would they get a treat then or anything out of the house? Mary: Sometimes they'd get something. One time we went into old Mr. Jim Kelly's, and Catherine Kinsella, she was Cath erine Kelly, she was sweeping the floor. Martin: Oh, th at's Mike's wife, is it? Mary: Yeah. Your Dad was with us anyway, and Mary Fox and Ei leen and two or three more, and Willy Croke, I think. And anyway your "Dad said to her: "How abo ut a few sets?" You know, a dance. And I can see her now as plain as anything, and she stood up with the broom under her face, like that, and she said: "You must think we're setty." We all started to laugh. Poor old Mr. Jim Kelly, he sat to the table and he didn't say nothing. So we didn 't stay very lon g. We came on out. But they gave ya something. They'd give the men a glass of beer and we'd get a glass of syrup, ya know. Martin: So that Jim Kelly, is he anything to Harold and his family? Mary: He might be a cousin of their father, old Tom Kelly and Jack and them. Martin: So you used to do that during Chri stmas? Was there a special place everybody would go at the end of Christmas? Mary: We usen 't to go very many nights, you know. Some nights, like New Year's Eve, there might be a dance somewhere, at a school, or somewhere. Martin: What abo ut twelfth ni ght? 25 Mary: Twelfth night everybody'd be out. And some people would have a dance in the house. When Aunt Annie Hickey was alive, she liked to have a bit of fun, she used to have a dance, Mame and Maggie would get the crowd together. Martin: That's Pop's wife is it? Mary: Yeah, she was from Torbay. She'd have a dance. And down around the Cove, someone else would have one, ya know. Martin: So weren't you saying that she didn't like the crowd coming in? Mary: Well she wouldn't mind the crowd on the hill, like Houstons and Foxes and the rest. But she didn't want them from all over because she had so many chi ldren. So the crowd would get together, 15 or 20 or so, someone would have a mouth organ or something. She used to like a bit of fun like that, but she didn't want a big crowd because she had an awful crowd of children. She had 14 herself, and she was only a small little woman. Mmtin: She died in childbirth, didn't she? Mary: Yeah. Martin: Now, talking about stuff like that, Granddad Boland used to play. Mary: The tin whistle. Martin: Or was it the Jew's Harp? Mary: Yes, he played the Jew's Harp too, but I know he played the tin whistle. Martin: Where would they play that? Would they have a little time with that? Mary: No, he used to play it home. The crowd used to go to Bolands, you know, all the Rocky Hills, when Mrs. Mary Ann was alive. There'd be Will Fox and Din, our Pat - he wanted to go over because Mary Ann would pinch off some tobacco off ofMr. Martin's stick he'd have on the window, ya know. She'd pinch offa bit and give it to Pat. Pat used to bring up water out of the well for her, ya know. Martin: Your brother Pat? Mary: Yeah, and when he'd come over then, she'd sneak it over to him . Mr. Martin would come from McDonald's and leave it on the window, and she'd go and pinch offa bit, perhaps enough for a couple of cigarettes for him. And the next moming, he'd get up: "Were you smoking last night?" "You're getting foolish" she said, "] never touched it." "Well there's an awful lot gone offofit. Enough for 2 or 3 cigarettes gone offofit." 'Cause you'd only get a stick of tobacco a week, ya know, because there'd be no one in town. They'd be watching it like a hawk. She'd start to laugh th en. He said: " I' ll have to keep that in me pocket, or put it under me head every night." Laugh. Martin: Now she used to take snuff, didn't she? Mary: Yeah, she used snuff. A lot of people did. I don't know what it used to do for them. She used snuff and someone el se too, Grandmother Hickey, I think. Martin: Now that tobacco that Grandad Boland had? Mary: That was Beaver. Martin: Now they used to smoke that in the pipe. Mary: Yeah, but the young fellas would take it and grind it up right fine and wrap it up in a piece of white paper and smoke it. They used to look for white paper. Some of the meat shops would have plain white paper and wrap up the meat in it. They'd be watching that when they'd come home from Town. Pat would often take it and go offwith it. Then he'd go over to Boland's, she'd say to him: "Bring up a bucket of water now, will ya, please?" "Yes ma'am, indeed [will." He'd go down for the water. Then he'd get his 26 smoke. He wouldn't take any of Pop's because he'd be afraid, r suppose. He wouldn't take his father's. All the men would have a stick of tobacco. My father would get it during the week if anyone would be going out because what they had would be gone by the middle of the week. Martin: So they'd probably have a couple of sticks for the week. Mary: Golden Shag and Bugler and Target and Beaver are the ones I can remember. Martin: So they'd cut off enough to fill their pipe and Mary: Full their pipe, and then they'd put it in their pocket or on the shelf. Martin: And if the young fellas were going to use it, they'd use it for cigarettes. Mary: Yeah, they'd have it ground up right fine. Martin: Now I suppose most people did smoke then, right? Mary: Everybody 1 suppose that I know of. Martin: That was my recollection, that the adults smoked, the men anyway. It was almost a part of growing up then, to get your smokes. Mary: If you were going on the altar, you wouldn't because if the priest ever smelled smoke off of you, he'd box the ears off 0 f you. Mal1in: Would he? Mary: Indeed he would. He wouldn't want them smoking. He never smoked himself, ya know. Martin: Now Dad was on the altar for a while, wasn't he? Mary: Yes, he clouted your Dad. I don't know what it was for. His father took him off of it then. Martin: Didn't one of them (Dad or Din Fox or Uncle Pat Hickey) get their Surplice caught on fire over there? Mary: I don't know, but 1 know poor Din Fox, the last few years Fr. O'Callaghan was there, he'd have Mass in the house then, there was a big wide hall going the full length of the house down in the bottom flat. Anyway, whatever happened, Din Fox was supposed to be on the altar, he was a big young man then, teaching school. And the priest was after telling him to get candles or something, and anyway he came and forgot it. And up in the top of the hall, he had an altar there to have the Mass on. Everyone used to go to Mass for Lent and the hall used to be filled. So he said: "Where's the candles to?" He was after forgetting to get them out of the Church. That's what it was. So he said: "I forgot them, Father." So he said: "Go down and get them." And he gave him 3 or 4 smacks on each side, and whatever way he hit him on the side of the nose, the blood came out of his nose, down, right down. And he never said nothing. He went down and got them. And all the people there looking at him, ya know. He apologized after. He was right hot tempered, ya know. Mat1in: Is that right? Maybe it was Uncle Dave Houston, but someone was telling me a story about when they were on the altar and maybe they leaned too close to a candle or something. Mary: No. See, he always used to have vigil lights, one on each side and they were kneeling down saying the Confiteor, and they were kneeling too close to the thing, and the surplice caught on to the light and caught on fire.' And the priest made a roar at them to get out in the Sacristry. Martin: Afraid the place would burn down? 27 Mary: No he was afraid the carpet would get burnt. He sail: "Get out and brush it out". So Dave had to run out. I wasn't there but I can remember it now and whoever went out with him. Martin: Who was it caught fire, do you know? Mary: I don'! know if it was Din Fox or Tom Doran or someone. I know he gave my brother Pat a crack another time. I don't know what he did; he was late or something for his tum on the altar. He got 2 or 3 whacks across his ears. Martin: That must have been almost accepted then. But you wouldn't do it now. Mary: Oh no, you'd be before Court if you did that now. But you know, you wouldn't say nothing then. He gave your Dad a couple of cracks too. Your Dad's father took him off the altar. He couldn't agree with that. His father went over to Fr. Dan and said: "That's alright you can get someone else to box now, the next time." So he didn't say nothing to him because he was one of the ones building the Church, you know. He was asking your father one day when he was over to Mass: "Where were you to, you're not on the altar?" He said: "My father took me off." He said "Oh." That's all he said. He never said anything more about it. Martin: I remember Uncle Dave Houston telling me stories. Sometimes they'd pip off of school when the seal hunt and stuff like that was on, watching the boats go out. Mary: Yeah, they'd go up on Red Cliff and them places and watch them going down. Down on the Point was another place. Martin: Would many of the people down there go to the seal hunt? Mary: Yes, my gosh, my father was out, he used to love it. He loved the water. The last time he went out, it was in the Beothic, and they got up in the Horse Islands, they were only 2 weeks out and they never got home until the 41h of May. They were jammed into the ice and she was a great big boat but she wasn't much good for ice. Martin: They'd probably lose their catch then too, wouldn't they? Mary: They never got no catch. Whatever they had would have gone bad. They never got nothing that year. See they used to go out. They'd go out in March, see, around the 41h or 10lh of March. And they'd usually be in around the last part of March, or the Slh or I Olh of April. Well they'd have plenty of time to get ready, my father would have the salmon nets ready then, the salmon nets mended and ready to put out. That's the last year he went out, 1934 or something. And when they'd come in, whatever money they'd have they would be able to buy twines and everything, whatever they want. They'd go at the salmon then, and when the salmon would be over, they put out their trawls. Martin: So their nets would be already mended before they'd go to the seal hunt. Mary: Yes, because you couldn't depend on whatever time you'd get in, ya know. Martin: I guess that would give them something to do in the winter time, anyway. Mary: Yeah, they'd be haulin' wood before, when the snow would come, before that, getting wood hauled before summer, haul it with the horse and sleigh. Martin: Dad was out to the seal hunt too, wasn't he? Mary: He was out 2 or 3 times. For sure he was out twice. Martin: I thought I heard him say he was out 5 or 6 times. Mary: Maybe he was, b'y. Martin: The first time he was out, didn't he have his birthday out to the ice? Mary: I think it was only twice your Dad went out. There was only two boats he went on, the Beothic and the Imogene. She was the queen of the fleet. 28 Martin: The Imogene? Mary: Yeah. Martin: How old was he when he first went out? Mary: He was only 16; he had his 17th birthday on the ice. And on them big boats you wouldn't get in very early, unless you had a load, ya know. If there was any seals on the go you'd be out 'til late. Martin: So that was what, 1930 or 1931. He was born in 1914, so that would make it 1931. What boat was he on? Mary: The first year he was out, he was out in the Beothic. Martin: And the Imogene, he was on that in 1938? Mary: Yeah that was his last year because he went in the Fire Hall then on July 4. Sir Edward Emerson got him a job. He worked in there in his garden, utility man: washed the cars and did the lawns and stuff like that. And he used to go in there in the summer at Virginia Lake. He'd be in there with the boat. Martin: So that was the year he joined the Fire Hall-I 938. Mary: Yeah, he didn't like out to the ice, so when he came in, he asked Mr. Emerson if he'd get him a job in the Fire Hall. He said he'd like to have something pernlanent. "Sure" he said. He could put in who he liked because he was Minister of Justice then. Martin: Now, when he worked down to Emerson's, they had a big ice house there, too, didn't they? Mary: Yeah. [n the wintertime, he'd get his father and get him work in there and they'd cut the ice. They had a great big ice saw and they'd cut great big blocks of ice and put it in the shed. They had it insulated around inside. They had enough ice to do all year, because there was no fridges then, you know. The first year r went to Higgins', Gordon gave her a fridge for Christmas and [went in there in April 1938. No one had any. Murphy in on TOt'bay Rd used to sell ice. My father and mother lived in Emerson's one winter when Martin was a baby. They had a cow, see, and they used to leave the cow in the winter and they wanted somebody to look after it. Old Edward would be down buying salmon and my father would often give him a salmon, you know, and he wouldn't want to take the money. "Go on," he said, "take it." "Cause it was only 10 cents a pound then, ya know. So he was in there and stayed the whole winter. Martin'd be bawling for the milk and he used to milk the cow in the morning and give him the milk to drink. Martin always used to love milk. And they stayed in there the winter. He asked him to stay in the winter, but he said: "I won't be able to stay in there too long, because [ have to be at the fishing. 1 have nets and that to get ready." "That's alright" he said, "we'll be going in there the first of May anyway." They'd always go in there the first of May for the summer. Martin: That's like insurance for the house; there'd always be somebody there. Mary: Yes, in case somebody would break in. 'Twas nice in there though. Quiet, and nice grand wood and everything. He'd get all the wood. [used to go out with him on the long cart in the summertime. He'd go out and get a load of wood out there. Dry wood, a great big forest in there. Martin: Now they had a lot of property, didn't they? Mary: Oh my yes, they had an awful lot, as far as you could see, right around. Martin: Was that some kind ofa grant they got one time? 29 Mary: Yeah, Edward's grandfather, old George Emerson, was a lawyer and the English Government was taking in Crown Land here and they wanted to know if anyone had any claim to it. He had to make out a list, do a brochure and do all the areas, maps and everything to take in the land for the Crown. And so he had to go and bring it over to the English Government. They said: "Name what you would like the most. Would you like money?" "No", he said: "I tell you, what I would like most is land." They said to name however much ya wants, whatever land you would like to have. So he had a map, old Emerson had a map, you know where he was figuring what he'd like to get. So he started in there and he went right to the Torbay Rd and it was one thousand and something acres. He sold a lot of it and got money for it. Martin: So that's all the land where Emerson's Pond is? Mary: Emerson's Pond. That's what he wanted to get, see, where there was a nice pond there. Virginia Lake. What do they call that subdivision down there all around the lake with all the big shots. Martin: King William Estates. So they took in all the land between Logy Bay Rd and Torbay Rd. Mary: Yeah, it started there, down by what used to be the Protestant schoolhouse, and it went right in past Emerson's gate, almost down to Robin Hood Bay Rd, right across from that, and right in to the Torbay Rd., a thousand acres worth anyway. Martin: A lot of land, wasn't it. Mary: Yeah, a lot of land. They sold a lot of it after. Martin: Now, that first Emerson, he must have been a Surveyor? Mary: No, he was a lawyer, old man Emerson, George was his name. I know George was the fell a did the thing up for the British Government. Newfoundland then was only a little country. Martin: Now, [ remember you telling me one time about that big blimp. Mary: Yeah, the Hindenberg, the one that came over from Germany. Martin: That's the one that caught fire in the States. Now, that went right up through Outer Cove, didn't it? Mary: That went right up, came up from the Flatrock beamer, that way, come up that way and it was just floating along. There was no sound or any kind of noise out of it and it kept on going up right slow, and it kept right in the bay and it went right on up over the big river, that way. And it kept on going right out and it was going right slow. Twas just like a big bomb. That was the name of it, the Hindenberg. Martin: What did the crowd think of that? Mary: Oh my God, everyone thought there was a war on or something, because you had no radio or anything, and you wouldn't know unless you'd be in Town and get the paper and get any news out of it. And there was no radio or TV. Poor Mrs. Whelan, they had a garden there by that wall there on the corner and 1 was out in the yard watch in' it and she beckoned to me to go down to her and she said: "What is it? Did you hear anything? Did you see that thing going up like a big balloon?" And 1 said "Yes, we don't know what it was." There was no noise to it. She said: "Tis not like a plane and there was no wings or nothing on it, 'twas just like a big bomb." "My God" she said "I suppose they're not going to blow us up." Poor old thing, she was frightened to death. And the next day then, someone was in Town and got the paper, some of the milkmen, Pines or someone, and they said 'twas a Gennan modern-type plane. They said it was one of a kind and they 30 were doing some kind of experiment on it. It said then, in the paper they phoned the Head Office in Germany or England, or somewhere, and they said they were testing it to see what endurance it would have, going with no wings or anything, just a motor. Martin: Any idea when that was? Mary: I think it would be about 1937 or 1936, mid-thirties. Martin: Is that the same one that blew up? Mary: Yes, it went from here across to Canada and into the States. 'Twas some place in the States, it blew up. Martin: Yeah, New Jersey or some place like that. Anyway that was the excitement for that day. Mary: Yeah, it was a really exciting time. Mal1in: Now I remember you talking, too, about the Military during the Second World War; it was around that time that the Yanks took over the land up on Red Cliff. Didn't they have sentries posted along the coastline? Mary: Oh yes right along. They had a little barracks. They had one up on Flagstaff in Red Cliff, and another out around the Battery somewhere or Signal Hill, and another one down on the Point, and they had another one down by the Beach up over the Beach Road there, going over towards Houston's stage, they had another one there. And over in Middle Cove they had another one, and Flatrock, and Torbay, right around the coast. Martin: They'd have it on high ground, would they? Mary: Yeah. Martin: Now that one up on Flagstaff that was up in Mary: Houston's Place. Martin: You could look down over Logy Bay. So what would they do? They'd be in the barracks down there, and they'd carry guns and everything, wouldn't they? Mary: Oh yes. Some days they'd have a march. They'd walk and they'd have so much on their back, a knapsack type of thing. They'd have to carry so much weight and they'd walk, perhaps out to the Base at Pepperal. And then, another day they'd walk towards Torbay or Flatrock. They'd have to do so much walking every day. And I know, one Sunday evening, my mother and [ were going down to Aunt Annie Kinsella's, and when we got there to Doran's Lane, there was two of them coming up, and we never said nothing and just as we got apast them, they said: "Halt, who goes there? Laugh. And my Mother said: "My God, what's wrong with them? They have a gun." And we stopped and they said: "Don't you know you're supposed to stop when we say: "Who goes there?" And Mom said: "No sir, we don't know nothing about soldiers, or what to do when they stop and speak." And he said: "Well, when we say 'Halt' or 'Who goes there', you're supposed to stop." He asked us then where we were going. She said: "I'm going to visit my sister. She's down there, going up that road. So he said: "Well that's alright." The two of them went on. They'd walk right up, perhaps to Red CliffRd then, and go over on Red Cliff, and come down and walk back again. Martin: So, was it during the Second World War that they took over the land up on Red Cliff:' Mary: Yeah, after they got established down at Pepperal, the head ones wanted to get them posted around because there was a lot of U-boats around the coast. Martin: So it was after the Yanks got into the Second World War, was it? They weren't here before? 31 Mary: No, they never wanted to go into the War. England asked them first for the warships they weren't using. They said: "Well, they're not in very good condition." They put 'em off, you know. So when they got bombed in Pearl Harbour, they got after Churchill and they agreed on giving them 50 old warships that they had. Then in return they wanted a lease for to build barracks along the coastline because they said there was U-boats around. Up in the Gulf, sure, the Caribou was sunk and I believe there was another one. Two of the passenger boats from here, ya know. Martin: So that's when they took the land in Red Cliff, was it? Mary: Yeah. Martin: And they expropriated a good bit of our land, didn't they? Mary: Well your Dad's father had 20 acres up there, and Houston's had some more and Mr. Will (Boland) had about the same, ya know. I know they took in 8 or 12 acres from your grandfather for the barracks and all they gave them was $20. See, 'twas only Crown Land then. Martin: So what did Grandad Boland do with that then? Mary: He gave it to Mr. LaITY to buy a couple of pairs of long rubbers for Will and himsel f (his brothers). Martin: Oh yeah, for Uncle Lar and Big Will. Mary: Yeah. Martin: And I suppose Mr. Will and Houston's got the same? Mary: They got the same, yeah. Martin: And was there someone else got land taken on them too? Mary: Yeah, Pat Power. Anyone that had land on the coastline, ya know. Martin: Remember the buildings they had up there with the big domes on top? Mary: Yeah, and a water tower they had up on Flagstaff there. Remember that big tower? Martin: Up on Flagstaff? Mary: You could see it from the split of the cliff there when you 'd be coming down,just as you'd get up on Red Head itself on the level there, ya know, there was a great big water tower. That's where they used to get the water from down there by your Uncle Nix', and the pipeline'd be going right up to that big tower up on Flagstaff. Martin: I don't remember that tower. I remember there was two big round balls. Mary: Yeah that was for the communications equipment. But the Tower was where they used to get the water from the dam. Martin: Yeah, they'd pump it up over the hill. Mary: Yeah to the big tower, a reservoir. Mundy Pond used to have one too, years ago. Martin: Some of the cities in Ontario have them. Peg's sister up in Orangev ill e, Ont. has one right across the road from th eir house. Mary: Yeah, well that was a huge one up there. They had three or four barracks up there on Flagstaff. Martin: It 's strange, but [can't remember that water tower at all. Now, did they tell lots of ghost stories in the old days? Wasn't that the way they passed the time at night? Mary: Oh yeah, but I'd never listen to them because you'd be afraid of your life. They used to say they'd see people down to the beach and everything, ya know. Like out to the Point there. Ah, poor Aunt Statia (Hickey) there, she li ved down there where poor Michael Doran lived. You remember Michael Doran? 32 Martin: Yeah. Mary: Well she used to come up to my mother (her sister) in the night time about the noise she used to hear down there, ya know. She said: "That place is haunted down there." They used to say that place was haunted, ya know. Martin: Yeah. Mary: Mom would say: "Go away girl, that's only the noise of the water beatin ' against the cliff." "No girl" she said, "it's not that at all. Sure I knows that. It's not that." Martin: I know myselfand Peg were down there last year, for a walk down to the Point, and there was a big undertow on, and boy what a racket! Mary: Yeah, and that's what she used to hear see, and she used to think there was somebody down there. She wouldn't want to go down. Momma used to give her a piece of bread to put in her pocket. Martin: Yeah, what was that for, to keep away the fairies? Mary: Yeah, to keep away the fairies. 'Twas blessed see, the salt in the bread was blessed. "Go 'way", she said, "we lived out in Logy Bay and you should know" she said, "we used to go down to the rooms in the summertime and our father 'd be fishing." They used to stay down there in the summertime and they had little fishing rooms down there. They had place enough to sleep down there, ya know. Martin: So who would stay down there? Mary: Mom, when she was young, and Aunt Statia, and she said: "Sure we used to hear noises down there." "No" she said, ''' tis a different noise than that altogether. She said: 'There's something down there. ['m not going to stay there." So Uncle Martin had to sell it. He sold it to Mr. Jack Doran, I think, because that's where Michael Doran built his house first. Martin: Now, they used to tell other stories, too, about the Mickeleens and all that stuff. Mary: Oh that was only tormenting the children for to keep 'em in. Martin: I remember we'd hear ghost stories about down in the marsh down under the hill in our place. I guess it was the same thing, to keep us home out of it. Mary: Oh yeah, they wouldn't allow ya to go near the marsh years ago, I know when [ was small. I know Mom used to have a fit. She'd make ya take a bit of bread in your pocket because she said, the little people, they used to call them , because she said there was a little girl Savage, the Savage family over there where Mr. Stephen Power's house is. They had a little girl and she went up one evening picking berries and she never came home and they hunted for her everywhere. The following evening they found her and she was dead. And they said it was the little people. And until Fr. O'Caliaghan came, they used to say the same thing about the beach. He used to go down and bless the boats in the Spring, and have the Rosary down there, and sprinkle holy water anywhere like that where there was talk of anything, he crossed it, ya know. No one used to hear anything after that. Martin: [always remember though, that ye'd never want us to go down there in the marsh, down under the hill. Mary: No, sure we wouldn't be allowed to go down there after dark. People used to say it, ya know; it must be true. Martin: Even the few times we went clown, going across to the other side, sometimes we'd take a shortcut and go across under Boland's falls. Laugh. When we got near the river we wouldn't hang around too long. You 'd get up on the other side. 33
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