On the 94th episode of the Silver Bullet Security Podcast, Gary chats with Ming Chow, lecturer at Tufts University School of Engineering's Department of Computer Science. Gary and Ming discuss whether it's better to start with security people or people that know how to code already when building new software security professionals. They also talk about what developers currently think of software security, what would make developers more likely to take security seriously, how Ming uses games to teach security to his students. They close out their chat with talk of obscure and not-so-obscure music.