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Originally posted by Ecumenicist View Post
Emmanuel, God with us.
God in the flesh. Immanent God.
Bs'd
Immanuel means "God with us", it does not mean "God in the flesh" and it also doesn't mean "Immanent God".
Please read this, and then especially the parts about the names, the same holds true of course for Immanuel:
Isaiah 9:2-7 "2 The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined. 3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, thou hast increased its joy; they rejoice before thee as with joy at the harvest, as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For the yoke of his burden, and the staff for his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, thou hast broken as on the day of Mid'ian. 5 For every boot of the tramping warrior in battle tumult and every garment rolled in blood will be burned as fuel for the fire. 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."
Please take notice of the fact that Isaiah is talking in the past tense: "The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined.|
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government is upon his shoulder, and his name was called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
These are things which had happened already in the days of Isaiah.
If, despite these facts, you still want to apply these verses to JC, than read verse 5, 6, and 7, and see that JC didn't do any of those things. He never ruled on the throne of David, he never had any government on his shoulders, and there never was endless peace over his kingdom.
The same holds true for the verses 6 and 7: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."
All of this doesn't hold true for JC; he never had any government on his shoulder. And also here is spoken in the past tense: "A child is born, a son is given. But most translations give it in the future tense. For instance the RSV, NIV, NAS, ESV, KJV, NIRV, the all say; "His name will be called ....", future tense. However, in the Hebrew text this too is past tense: "His name was called ...." The Hebrew expression here is "wayikra". That is the first word in the book of Leviticus. And all the previously mentioned translations there say: "And the Lord called Mozes ..." Past tense. Exactly the same the word. Isn't that weird? Exactly the same word is used in Genesis 5:1; "And God called the light 'day'" Called. Past tense. Nobody argues with that one. But why then, in Isaiah 9, is it suddenly changed to future tense? The answer is simple: The past tense doesn't fit with the Christian theology, and therefore the Bible translations are corrupted and twisted to fit the Christian religion. Just like that. There is only one solution for this problem: Take a course in Biblical Hebrew. It is more easy then it looks. Then your eyes will be opened and the Christian deception will stare you in the face. And yes, I do sympathize with the poor misguided Christians whom are being led astray by their clergy by means of twisted and corrupted Bible translations. That's the reason why I fulfill my duty of being a light unto the nations and uncovering the Christian deception.
"Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end" "There will be no end", future tense. And this too is WRONG. It is in the Hebrew present tense. I found only one translation which is correct here, and that is Young's Literal Translation.
Why all this stress on the tenses? Isaiah spoke about a king who was living in his days, and therefore JC is out. The king that Isaiah speaks about is Hezekiah, the son of Achaz who got from Isaiah the sign about the young woman (no, not the virgin) who was pregnant and gave birth to the son Immanuel.
The Talmud explains that under the rule of the God fearing Hezekiah the Jewish kingdom rose to great heights, and that's why he was entitled to those impressive titles.
Because of the fact that the name of the son is "Mighty God", (or "God is Mighty", both are possible translations) and "Eternals Father", the Christians deduce that the boy spoken about must have been God.
HOWEVER, a name is only that; a name. A name is not a description of the bearer of that name. An example: Buffalo Bill was not a buffalo. The indian chief Sitting Bull was not a bull.
Many times people in the Bible have in their name the word "God", or the name of God, but that doesn't mean that those people are God. For instance; in Exodus 6:23 is spoken about a man called "Elazar". That means "God is helper", or "Helping God". But that doesn't mean that that man was God.
Exodus 6:24; "Elkanah", that means "God acquired", or "acquiring God". II Samuel 22:19; "Elchanan"; "God is merciful", or "Merciful God". But these men were not God, just like the the child in Isaiah 9 wasn't God.
Apart from that, the Hebrew words "El gibor", in Christian Bibles translated with "Mighty God", can have a different meaning. "El" can mean "God", but it can also mean "judge", "leader", or "mighty man". In Exodus 4:16 God says to Moses that he will be of an elohiem for his brother Aharon. ("elohim" is the longer form of the word "el") This doesn't mean that Moses was a God for Aharon and Aharon started to worship his brother, it meant that Moses would be the leader of Aharon.
In Exodus 21:1-6 is spoken about a slave who after the normal period of servitude ended, doesn't want to leave his master. In that case the owner has to take him to court, where the slave will make a statement that he doesn't want to leave his master, and that he will serve his master until his death. The Hebrew text there says that his master must take him to the "elohim". There the NAS, ASV, ESV, NRSV, RSV, YLT, they all say that his master must take him "to God". However, his master doesn't take him for a ride to heaven, but takes him to the courthouse. Therefore the NIV, KJV, TNIV, and the NIRV, they all say that the master must take him to "the judges".
Even so in Isaiah 9 the word "El" does not necessarily mean "God". Therefore the text in Isaiah 9 is in no way a proof that the child spoken about was God.
Eliyahu light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
Please be advised that everywhere in your translation of your OT when it is written "the LORD" with all capitals, then in the original Hebrew it says the four lettered name of God: Y-H-W-H. That name appears almost 7000 times in the Hebrew Bible.
Originally posted by Turbo View Post
Aikido, did was Christ actually raised from the dead? Or was that a parable? Or did the Gospel writers add in that detail?
Even in the New Testament there is NOT ONE SINGLE WITNESS of his resurrection. No man saw him get up from the grave and walk away.
Oh, but he appeard to his disciples. Well, in that case, can you explain to me why nobody recognized him? Look in Luke 24:13-35. This speaks about the men on the road to Emmaus. JC met them, but they didn't recognize him.
The same thing happens in John 20:14; "At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus. "Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?" Thinking he was the gardener, she said, ... "
She thought JC was the gardener....
John 21:4 "Early in the morning, Jesus stood on the shore, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus. He called out to them, ..."
And again they didn't recognize him.
Isn't it strange that they didn't recognize the person with whom they were so close for years?
But the NT gives the answer to that strange phenomena. Look in Mark 16:12-13 "Afterward Jesus appeared IN A DIFFERENT FORM to two of them while they were walking in the country."
So it was a person "in a different form" from the previous well known JC who appeared to them, that's why they didn't recognize him.
A person in different form from the old JC, who was not recognized by the people he interacted with for years, only days before, doesn't that sounds like an imposter who is pretending to be the resurrected JC?
That also explains why some of the disciples doubted when the "resurrected JC" appeared to them: "When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted." Matt 28:17.
Can you imagine that the authentic JC appears to you and you still doubt?
Apperently he was not so authentic.
If the disciples, who saw the "resurrected JC" with their own eyes, still doubted, why then do the Christians 2000 years later, who have nothing to go by but stories, don't doubt?
Originally posted by Mateo View Post
Re: Psalm 22,
To paraphrase Spurgeon, "When reading Psalm 22 one should remove one's shoes, for if there is holy ground anywhere in the Bible, it is here".
I refrain from reading this Psalm in public to save myself the embarassment of public crying.
I can only shake my head in disbelief everytime I hear some learned theologian utter the canard that Jesus said what He did on the cross because God, who could not look upon sin, had turned His back on His Son. What utter compost.
The good news is: You can stop crying now.
Your Psalm 22 is just another Christian scam:
To begin with; the Psalms are not prophetic writings. Also Psalm 22 does not claim to prophesize about the messiah. It is nowhere written: The messiah will come and he will call out during his execution: My God, my God, why did you forsake me? This is king David speaking about himself. This Psalm is written mainly in the past tense, and describes the tribulations King David went through. But, as shown before, the authentic messianic prophecies are NOT fulfilled by Jesus, and therefore Christianity has to resort to Biblical texts that have no bearing on the messiah whatsoever, and present them as messianic prophecies. Because of the fact that, according the NT, Jesus quoted Psalms during his execution, the Christians claim that this Psalm must be a prophecy about the messiah. An upside down proof based upon nothing. And even that is not enough. In order to make it a little more authentic Christianity squeezed in the infamous falsification about the "piercing of hand and feet". See verse 16: "Yea, dogs are round about me; a company of evildoers encircle me; they have pierced my hands and feet." They say: "Look! Here is the crucifixion, prophesized in the Psalms!"
Point one: It is not written here that that the hands and feet of the messiah would be pierced. Like I pointed out: King David speaks here about himself, and that in the past tense. And on top of that: there is no such a thing as "they pierced my hand an feet". The Hebrew word that is here translated as 'pierced' is 'ka'arie'. There is no word that even comes close to ka'arie that means piercing. To call this a mistranslation is too euphemistic, we should call this just what it is; another Christian falsification of their Bible translations, in order to squeeze in JC. The word that comes the closest is 'karah', but it is impossible to fit that in here, because that would violate almost every rule in the Hebrew grammar. And besides that, karah does not mean piercing, but 'to dig up, to bring up from the ground' (in the sense of mining)
The Hebrew prefix 'ka' means: 'as the', and the Hebrew word 'arie' means 'lion'. So what it says here is: "Like the lion [they are at] my hands and feet." The text between the square brackets is my insertion. So King David, who is not prophesizing about the messiah here, is speaking about a lion, and not about piercing hands and feet. The same lion he speaks about in verse 13 and 21.
Also the modern day Bible translations translate this in the wrong way. I could find only one Christian Bible translation who translates this verse in the right way, and that is the translation of the Y-H-V-H witnesses. But at least the modern Bible translations have the decency to write that there is no such thing in the Hebrew text.
My edition of the Revised Standard Version has a footnote with the word pierced in verse 16, it says there: "Gk Syr Jerome: Heb like a lion" That means that the translators get the word "pierced" from the ancient Greek translation; the Septuaginth, and from the Syriac translation, and from the Vulgata, the Catholic translation of the Bible into Latin, made by Jerome, on the request of Pope Damascus, in 328 CE. But this: "Heb like a lion" means that they admit that in the Hebrew is written: Like a lion.
Here is the footnote of the New American Standard Bible Update (1995): "Another reading is like a lion, my..."
And here is the footnote of the New International Version: "Some Hebrew manuscripts, Septuagint and Syriac; most Hebrew manuscripts: 'like the lion,"
What the Bible translators are doing here is ignoring the original Hebrew Bible, and translating translations instead, because that fits the Christian theology better.
But the exact same word "ka'arie" is used in Isaiah 38:13. This claim can be checked out by people who cannot read Hebrew, by means of the Christian Hebrew-English interlinear, that is a Hebrew text of the Tanach, (OT), with under each word an English translation. Provided by a Christian institution. Look here: http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...brew_Index.htm and look there how it is translated there. It is possible to zoom into the text.
On the right side of the Hebrew text is a normal English translation. Now look at the discrepancy between how the Hebrew is translated right underneath, and how it is translated in the text on the right side. VERY educational!
And look here how the English translations translate the word "ka'arie" in Isaiah 38:11;
New International Version "I waited patiently till dawn, but like a lion he broke all my bones;"
ew American Standard Bible: "I composed my soul until morning. Like a lion--so He breaks all my bones,"
The Message: "I cry for help until morning. Like a lion, God pummels and pounds me,"
Amplified Bible: "I thought and quieted myself until morning. Like a lion He breaks all my bones;"
New Living Translation: "I waited patiently all night, but I was torn apart as though by lions."
King James Version: "I reckoned till morning, that, as a lion, so will he break all my bones:"
English Standard Version: "I calmed myself until morning; like a lion he breaks all my bones;"
Contemporary English Version: "Until morning came, I thought you would crush my bones just like a hungry lion;"
New King James Version: " I have considered until morning-- Like a lion, So He breaks all my bones;"
New Century Version: "I waited patiently till dawn, but like a lion he broke all my bones"
21st Century King James Version: "I reckoned till morning that, as a lion, so will He break all my bones;"
American Standard Version: "I quieted myself until morning; as a lion, so he breaketh all my bones:"
Young's Literal Translation: "I have set [Him] till morning as a lion, So doth He break all my bones,"
Darby Translation: "I kept still until the morning; ... as a lion, so doth he break all my bones."
Revised Standard version: "I cry for help until morning; like a lion he breaks all my bones;"
Another place where we see the word "ka'arie" is in Numbers 24:9. See here how it is there translated:
New International Version "Like a lion they crouch and lie down"
New American Standard Bible: "He crouches, he lies down as a lion"
The Message: "Israel crouches like a lion and naps"
Amplified Bible: "He couched, he lay down as a lion"
New Living Translation: "Like a lion, Israel crouches and lies down"
King James Version: "He couched, he lay down as a lion"
English Standard Version: "He crouched, he lay down like a lion"
Contemporary English Version: "Like a lion you lie down"
New King James Version: "He bows down, he lies down as a lion"
New Century Version: "Like a lion, they lie waiting to attack"
21th Century King James Version: "He couched, he lay down as a lion"
American Standard Version: "He couched, he lay down as a lion"
Young's Literal Translation: "He hath bent, he hath lain down as a lion"
Darby Translation: "He stooped, he lay down like a lion"
Revised Standard version: "He couched, he lay down like a lion"
So the translators know very well what "ka'arie" means. It is just that in Psalm 22 (almost) all the Christian Bible translators are collectively struck with blindness, and go astray.
But here we see what "ka'arie" means: "As the lion", and, more important, we clearly see what is does NOT mean: "piercing".
So in Psalm 22 it does not speak about the final messiah, and not about a crucifixion, and the "piercing" in Psalm 22 is just another Christian falsification of their Bible translations.
Psalm 22:
1 My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?
Why are You so far from helping Me,
And from the words of My groaning?
[size=1]Matthew 27:46
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?
I, too, am partial to this connect with jesus.
However, in Matthew, the Jews who heard Jesus cry out this question were sure he meant Elijah:
Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli , Eli , lama sabachthani ? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? 47Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elijah.
Is it possible that Christ was the Elijah and christians have had it werong for centuries???
That would certainly be a thing to make the Jews revise their point of view concerning the NT:
They both did the same miracles, which was traditional supposed to identify Elijah when would come back.
Both Elijah and Jesus raised the dead.
Both Elijah and Jesus were immortal.
Both Elijah and Jesus disappeared from the foot of a mountain.
Both Elijah and Jesus ascended into Heaven before witnesses.
Both Elijah and Jesus troubled Israel.
Both Elijah and Jesus were hunted down by the Jewish authorities.
Both Elijah and Jesus hid in a cave/tomb.
Both Elijah and Jesus pondered in the wilderness 40 days.
Both Elijah and Jesus walked on the water.
Both wrote letters to people on Earth after they had ascended.
Both appointed a successor, Elisha by Elijah, and Peter, by Christ.
Both were hunted by the Jewish authorities.
Both gave a successor the power to raise the dead.
Both gave a successor a symbolic authority, the cloak to one, the keys to the other.
Both asked that the this "cup" be taken from them.
Both had miraculous births.
Both multiplied the meal for many people they feed in the crowd.
Both destroyed the pagan worshippers and priests, one Baal, the other, the Pantheon of Rome.
Both were promised faithfulness three times, Elisha in the former and Peter, in the latter.
June 1st, 2012, 05:05 AM
In other words, had Elijah been previously indwelling in Jesus, called a mere son-of-man, which took place when John baptized him, hence then and thereafter called the son-of-god?
Was Jesus on the Cross asking why had Elijah left him during the Transfiguration, returning to Moses and leaving the mere son-of-a-man to face the Cross.
See what I am suggesting here?
Possible...?
Seems this thread suddenly went silent.
The idea that Christ was the Elijah is startling to Jews because their attack and criticism of the gospels is founded upon answering back to Christians who had long insisted Jesus was the mesiah ben David, while John was his Elijah.
But John told us that he was not the Elijah, nor was he a prophet.
It seems that the Elijah was that spirit, like a dove, that came down from heaven and alighted upon the shoulder of Jesus when he was baptized.
It was that spirit of Elijah that left with Moses when Jesus was transfigured back on the mountain top.
For the churches which have taught otherwise, my fellow christians will find they prefer to avoid this discussion, simply because it is not what they have been teaching, right or wrong.
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