#ubuntu-meeting 2004-12-27
<Memphis> hi @all
<jordi> ha ha.
<jordi> oops
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-01-01
<Treenaks> /topic anyone?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Treenaks] : Tuesday 21 December 2004 at 1600 UTC: Community Council meeting -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<zul> hey seb128 
<seb128> afternoon
<Treenaks> hi seb
<sivang> hi sabdfl :)
<sabdfl> evening sivang
<Treenaks> hi sabdfl 
<sabdfl> ready for today's cc meeting?
<sabdfl> let's give everyone a few minutes to get together
<mako> whoa
<sabdfl> hey mako
<mako> sabdfl: hey
<Kamion> here
* mako is mkaing one last minute addition
<Kamion> not sure we're getting elmo today
<mako> done
* mako added something to introduce the new new member process
<sabdfl> hi kamion, saw those uploads this morning
<sabdfl> should we get going?
<sabdfl> smurfix, you around?
<smurfix> yep
<mako> and perhaps to ratify it if that's something we need to do
<sabdfl> the agenda suggests smurfix will intro the country-teams idea
<sabdfl> smurfix: happy to do so? if so, go ahead
<smurfix> ok
<mako> wait one second
<smurfix> (still typing slowly ;-)
<sivang> heheh
<mako> i think it might be better to first introduce the notes from the NM bof
<sivang> sabdfl: ready as could be.
<sabdfl> mako: go ahead
<smurfix> mako: OK, makes sense
<mako> because the new distctions between groups have a bearing on the way that this is done
<sabdfl> righ
<sabdfl> t
<mako> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewDevelopersAndMaintainers
<mako> those are the super notes written up by plov
<sabdfl> by way of background to folks who weren't in mataro
<mako> right
<sabdfl> we had a great session brainstorming on our maintainer process
<sabdfl> and i think the result is excellent
<mako> those notes they read pretty well as a summary of the conclusion we came to
<sabdfl> it balances the need to empower people early on, with the need to keep the team technically exceptional
<mako> but the basic problem we were trying to solve was to find a way to recognize the contributions of people who are not developers or package maintainers
<mako> and to enfranchise them within the governnance system
<sabdfl> and recognises that there are lots of ways people participate, and gives those people a voice
<mako> the document will do a better job than what t i can type now
<mako> but the basic idea is that we have members who are recognized by this body
<mako> and they will be able to confirm new members of the CC
<mako> and they should have contributed meaningful to the community
<mako> but they do not need to be package maintainers
<mako> the rest of the system is basically the same as before
<Kamion> procedurally, as I understand it, this means we approve members and then pass them to the TB for technical approval if they want to go one step further up; this reads as a codification of what we've been informally doing up to now
<mako> except that maintainer is now a purely technical distinction
<mako> Kamion: i'd prefer to think of it as a lateral step, but yes :)
<Kamion> either way :)
<sabdfl> also clarifies the distinction between committer and maintainer
<mako> Kamion: it was unclear what to do with non-technical applicants in the past
<mako> right
<sabdfl> and allows for commit rights to be given on specific components or packages
<mako> as a result, we have a couple people on the agenda for today who are applying for member status in the community but who are not currently pursuing TB approval to upload
<sabdfl> mako: i think we should write this up as a formal doc and have it approved by the cc
<mako> and these are connected to thehe country teams as well
<mako> sabdfl: and then move it into the website governance page/pages
<mako> yeah, that sounds ideal.. i think that doc provides most of what we need
<sabdfl> we can get going right away with new members, on the basis that the cc were all there
<mako> sabdfl: i'll have that ready for the next CC meeting
<sabdfl> mako: great, thanks!
<sabdfl> any initial comments from folks who were not at the mataro sessions?
<mako> it's also worth mentioning that there was some good work done on mentoring processes by Chris Haas
<mako> who is going to be helping out with a mentoring system for ubuntu.. really great work
<sabdfl> yes
<sabdfl> folks who are keen to become committers or maintainers would benefit greatly from spending some time with ChrisH
<sabdfl> also, we agreed to review very quickly any proposed packages from new maintainer candidates
<ChrisH> You are all invited for a pizza. ;)
<Kamion> I'm particularly glad to see that because it will mean that much of the mentoring process doesn't have to start with Canonical staff who are already heavily committed in many cases
<sabdfl> but the actual detailed back and forth to get a package up to scratch if it isn't right first time is best handled by the mentoring process
<Treenaks> ChrisH: where? :)
<Kamion> proposed packages> was it within two days or so?
<sabdfl> two working, i think
<sabdfl> mako, could you document the process on that front as well too please?
<Kamion> I think we should agree to at least get back to them with feedback within that time; there'll be cases of very large packages which take a long time to review
<sabdfl> we'll need some sort of workflow to track that commitment
<Kamion> the key is to not leave people stalled during the review process
<mako> sabdfl: yes, of course
<sabdfl> agreed
<sabdfl> any other comments on the new maintainer process?
<mako> not right now
<mako> i'll send the draft to -devel
<sivang> we just need some good, accessible docs for it I guess
<mako> so we can take discussion onto the lists
<sabdfl> good idea
<mako> let move on
<mako> smurfix: you're up
<sabdfl> do we have any members up for approval?
<mako> smurfix: only connected to doc team work
<sivang> and country teams :)
<mako> sabdfl: ^^^
<mako> i meant country teams
* mako really messed up that message
<sabdfl> right
<smurfix> So, back to country teams, as those who are on the CC agenda today want to become team leaders ;-)
<mako> two thinkos
<Treenaks> smurfix: yes
<Kamion> looks like Treenaks and sivang are both up for membership approval?
<smurfix> Many of the country teams basically organized themselves -- we want to take advantage of that, recognize their contributions, and make that a more integrated part of Ubuntu
<Treenaks> Kamion: right
<smurfix> The technical side of "what we want from the country team" is on the CountryTeams wiki page
<Kamion> the NM bof notes equate Ubuntite with activist, so that may not be the best term for use on the agenda
<mako> Kamion: i changed it
<smurfix> basically, IRC and mailing list and maybe a forum and whatnot
<mako> reload
<Kamion> mako: aha, thanks
<sabdfl> can we agree on Ubuntite?
<sabdfl> oh, there's a zillion typos waiting to happen there...
<Kamion> I think my main concern for country teams is that there should be somebody responsible for liaising with the primarily English-speaking development community as necessary
<mako> sabdfl: nothing we aren't used to :)
<Kamion> we can follow ubuntu-users (mostly ...), but generally not ubuntu-nl etc.
<smurfix> also it might make sense for Ubuntu to have a common second-level domain names if at all possible
<mako> Kamion: oh, good idea!
<sabdfl> we could do nl.ubuntulinux.org etc very easily
<mako> Kamion: we can have them send summaries to be included in traffic!
<Kamion> that would be good
<sabdfl> but i think it's more effective to have domains that match standard practice in that country
* mako doesn't summarize any of the non-english lists
<Treenaks> Kamion: in what way? for "localization needs"?
<sivang> why not having localized ubuntu domains?
<sabdfl> mako: great idea
<mako> that would be *great*
<smurfix> which the team leaders can help orgainze, though happily I co-own an ISP which does international domain registrations *grin*
<sivang> sabdfl: I have already started doing that :) as of my conversation with lu from last week.
<Kamion> Treenaks: users frequently report bugs on the users mailing list
<smurfix> you all type way too fast for me ;-)
<Treenaks> Kamion: oh stuff like that.. yeah forwarding/translating those would be an idea :)
<smurfix> we might want to make that Wiki list-of-stuff a more integral part of the site later; for now I've started the CountryTeamList page ten minutes ago
<sabdfl> also, to help coordinate the migration of code into the main distro, like input methods and font decisions etc
<smurfix> sabdfl: that too, yes
<sivang> sabdfl: the thing is, we need to see what std. form those localized sites can take, if to follow the main layout of ulinux.org etc, or have their own layout at the moment.
<Kamion> and to act as points of contact on geopolitical issues
<Kamion> although sometimes external observers may be less biased; it depends
<sabdfl> i think we want to be as empowering as possible
<mako> there are tons of things that the team can do
<sabdfl> which means offer people the use fo the official artwork and css if they want, but also let them to anything else if they think it suits their community better
<Kamion> agreed
<mako> but if it's only to provide an interface between existing ubuntu community and the rest of the project, it's owrthwhile
<sabdfl> Kamion: hot button :-)
<smurfix> My list of the social part of the country team leader's responsibility so far:
<mako> i think we can think pretty big.. each team will be different
<smurfix> - be visible in the local community, of course ;-)
<Kamion> sabdfl: indeed - an important one for many countries though
<smurfix> - keep a list of regional contacts
<smurfix> - remind people of / enforce the CoC if necessary
<sivang> smurfix: CoC = ?
<Kamion> code of conduct
<Treenaks> Code of Conduct
<sivang> eh
<sivang> :0
<sivang> :)
<sabdfl> i'd like the country teams to have a high visibility on our home page
<sabdfl> we thought of flags, but that can be too divisive
<mako> sabdfl:  a map?
<sabdfl> and we may have to refer to the teams as "regional teams" rather than country teams
<sivang> sabdfl: maybe a special section for the country team, like "Ubuntu in your country,lang etc"
<smurfix> the other stuff on my llist has already been mentioned while I was busy typing ;-)
<sivang> *teams
<Kamion> flags *definitely* best avoided
* mvo nods
<Kamion> likewise maps indicating country borders; you can go to jail in some countries for that (!)
<Treenaks> sabdfl: yes, I notice lots of Flemish people (who also speak Dutch) come to the Dutch support
<Treenaks> sabdfl: so it's more a language thing than a country thing for me
* mako accidnetly called a flemish person dutch two days ago
<sabdfl> lithping ever thinth?
<smurfix> Treenaks: the distinction between these two isna't always readily apparent
<smurfix> isn't
<Treenaks> smurfix: true..
<mako> i think we can push this convesation to the lists or put it on hold until afterwards
<mako> i think mark's suggestion to have good visible on the website is a good idea
<mako> we just need to iron out how to do it correctly
<sabdfl> ok, but let's at least publically thank the guys who have stepped up so far
<smurfix> anyway, that's it from me, for now.
<sabdfl> and invite them to have a say in ubuntu as members
<mako> we can do that
<mako> it's even on the agenda :)
<sabdfl> is niels around?
<Treenaks> who is he on irc?
<mako> i don't know his nick
<mako> does anyone know Niels Kjller Hansen's nick?
<sabdfl> nope
<sabdfl> he doesn't have a wiki page
<mako> then we can defer that decision unitl the next kmeeting
<mako> i think both sivang and Treenaks should be uncontroversial :)
<Treenaks> Whee :)
<sabdfl> kamion?
<sivang> yey! :)
<mako> sivang and Treenaks were both at the conference and did good work there and both have been active in trying to help define what a country team is through planning and example
<Kamion> sabdfl: I don't, sorry
<sabdfl> Kamion: que?
<Kamion> neils' nick
<sabdfl> ah
<Kamion> niels, sorry
<sivang> hehe
<mako> can we confirm them?
<sabdfl> i was just checking if you were also happy with treenaks and sivang
<mako> or are thehere more questions?
* mako is happy confirming both
<Kamion> oh, yes, I met them both and I'm fine with both
<sabdfl> i'm thrilled with both of their contributions too
<sabdfl> welcome aboard, both of you
<Treenaks> thanks
<sivang> sabdfl: thank you!
<sivang> thanks all
<smurfix> sivang, Treenaks: could you update the draft list at CountryTeamList? (Though not at the same time please ;-)
<sivang> smurfix: sure thing
<mako> Treenaks, sivang: you have the privledge/difficulty of defining the rules of this as you go :)
<Treenaks> mako: cool :)
<sivang> :)
<mako> you should stay in touch withs smurfix and myself who can bring your experience into best practices for groups that come after you :)
<sabdfl> smurfix: would you like to play a more general role in the country teams?
<sabdfl> did you take this one on?
<smurfix> sabdfl: dure
<mako> sabdfl: he did at the marketing meeting
<smurfix> sure
<sabdfl> ok, let's document that on the wiki and site
<mako> smurfix: i mean, i don't want to speak for you :)
<sabdfl> yes, i recall, was just looking for the bof notes :-)
<sabdfl> this is a very exciting step
<smurfix> sabdfl: I'll update the pages as appropriate over the next couple days
<sabdfl> we set a high goal: 50 countries for Hoary, right?
<sabdfl> mako: i think this warrants a mail to -devel and -users as well
<smurfix> sabdfl: right.
<mako> sabdfl: at least
<sabdfl> i'd rather concentrate things there than -announce for the moment
<mako> smurfix: lets work together to get announcment out by the end of thehe week
<sabdfl> because we want it to reach people who are active
<Treenaks> smurfix: updated
<mako> ther eis also -news
<mako> i think we've fallen off the end of the agenda
<smurfix> mako: Can you write a first draft?
<sabdfl> let's stick to -devel and -users for the moment
<mako> smurfix: sure..
* smurfix is somewhat swamped with work and holiday preparations this week :-/
<mako> speaking of...
<mako> TB meeitng next week?
<smurfix> sivang: ping me when you're done editing the list page ?
<mako> sabdfl: postponed?
<sivang> smurfix: k
<sabdfl> mako: yes, i think so, can check with mdz later
<mako> sabdfl: alright.. we shoudl make an announcment
<mako> sabdfl: if it is postponed
<sabdfl> ok, and update the wiki page
* mako nods
<sabdfl> i'll update the wiki agenda pages now
<sabdfl> any other business?
<mako> that's all i have now
<Kamion> nothing from me
<sivang> sec
<mako> jan 4 same time
<sabdfl> sivang had a last question, worth mentioning here
<mako> ?
<mako> go ahead
<sivang> What about localized websites? What if a country team cannot provide the hosting himself? will canonical be in help of that?
<sabdfl> what sorts of things could help?
<Kamion> do we have sufficient plone suport for that?
<Kamion> "support"
<sabdfl> not easily
<sabdfl> plone is sort of all or nothing
<Treenaks> stuff like automatic browser language detection?
<sabdfl> hmm... yes i tihnk it does that
<mako> there are two ways of handlin this
<sabdfl> so we can have pages in the main site that are translated, and served correctly
<ChrisH> I remember someone in Mataro said it would be possible to provide the same pages (of www.ubuntulinux.org) in different languages.
<Kamion> was thinking more of being able to store the localised version of a page with the English one
<mako> jane and lulu and i talked at the conference about getting someone to handle website improvements and such
<mako> this sort of thing would be on the top of the list
<Kamion> rather than just kludging _nl onto the end of every page :)
<sivang> I was speaking, could we get webspace over a cnonical server? :) or firms which we can interest in supporting ubuntu in that way?
<Treenaks> Kamion: that'd suck :)
<smurfix> I can setup something on my hosted machine for people who need a place for hosting
<sabdfl> we could also sponsor a web server for those country teams that need one, with virtual hosts for them
<mako> currently, folks just have translated pages in wikis and on their ownm servers
<Treenaks> Kamion: the tacking-on-_nl thing
<sivang> sabdfl: my thought exactly :)
<mako> sabdfl: might be nice
<Kamion> Treenaks: indeed
<sabdfl> it would have limited shell support i imagine, but be good enough for website hosting
<ChrisH> Let's keep the localised versions on the same server. No use to have a seperat server on the internet for each lang.
<mako> sabdfl: but almost all i've seen had php
<Kamion> mako: problem with that is that they get out of date trivially
<Kamion> translation tracking is just as important as a one-shot effort
<mako> which doesn't go over well with thom :)
<mako> Kamion: yes, of course
<sabdfl> i tihnk some critical docs need to be translated on the main server
<sabdfl> like CoC
<mako> i think a plone based solution makes  sthe most sense
<sivang> we should see if we can have rosetta support web site translations :)
<sabdfl> and governance docs, nm docs etc
<Treenaks> Kamion: changes-mail, like the wiki does when you "subscribe" to a page?
<sabdfl> but much of the local community stuff can best be hosted on a country-team website
<sabdfl> like, when people are meeting up, and where
<smurfix> sabdfl: exactly
<smurfix> if people need space for that they can talk to me
<smurfix> since they're going to talk to me anyway ;-)
<sabdfl> smurfix: that's very kind of you
<smurfix> sabdfl: don't worry, you'll get a bill for it ;-)  ;-)
<Treenaks> oh, we're having a -nl dinner/keysigning some time in January -- if anyone's near Utrecht then, they're welcome to join
<sivang> we'll start with that and see how this scales?
<mako> smurfix: alright.. perhaps we can trust some sort of short terms solution to the planning for the counry teams
<sabdfl> if it turns into a lot of work we can rent space on a commercial basis somewhere for the teams
<sivang> smurfix: do you have plone already installed? or moin moin? :)
<smurfix> sabdfl: I don't expect it will -- I'l speak up if it's going to be a problem.
<sabdfl> ok guys, let's wrap up
<mako> sivang: good point though.. we definitely know it's a problem
<smurfix> sivang: moin, yes. Plone not yet
<mako> alright
<mako> Jan 4, 1600?
<mako> UTC?
<smurfix> sivang: I expect the stuff that needs plone to be located on the main site anyway
<sabdfl> mako: tb?
<mako> that would be the currently scheduled CC meeting if we wait two weeks
<mako> if we just want to pretend like next week doesn't happen
<sivang> smurfix: ah ok, I just wanted to .il one to have consistent look with the main one.
<mako> the next meeting would be in three weeks  son the 11th
<smurfix> mako: that makes sense
<mako> i tend to think that 2 weeks is a good interval but since one week will be holidays for many people, the 11th would work
<sabdfl> ok, tb on jan 4th
<sabdfl> thanks everybody
<mako> see you next year :)
<Treenaks> :)
<Kamion> good 2004, guys
<sivang> happy new year everybody :)
<sabdfl> have a great festive season all
* smurfix waves
<jordi> heh
<sabdfl> yes, well done on this first year
<sabdfl> cheers all
<mako> chhers
<sivang> cheers
<Treenaks> cheers
* jordi refuses to say cheers.
* mako will send a summary to the lists tomorrow probably
<mvo> cheers
<Treenaks> jordi: say "\o/\o/\o/"
<sivang> what woudl jdub say? :)
<mako> PANTS OFF
<sivang> heheh
* Kamion keeps pants firmly on
<sivang> in spanish
<Treenaks> ok
<Treenaks> time to catch my bus home
<Treenaks> back in ~1.5 hours
<mako> sivang: "estoy buscando mi patalonis"
<sivang> mako: exactly !
<jordi> estic cercant els meus pantalons!
<jordi> dudes, you gotta pick the Catalan trends.
<jordi> hmm. wtf.
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-12-29
<highvoltage> right! who's present for the Edubuntu meeting?
<alkisg> o/
 * Lns raises hand enthusiastically
<highvoltage> stgraber: meetingreminderping
<highvoltage> agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Meetings/Agenda
<highvoltage> ok I'll start talking about our bug day
<highvoltage> it's scheduled for 12 January
<highvoltage> Ubuntu Alpha 2 is scheduled for 14 January
<highvoltage> so it's a good time to check the daily builds so that we can have an alpha release
 * stgraber waves
<stgraber> sorry a customer just called :)
<highvoltage> LaserJock suggested that we look at all the edubuntu specific packages and make a drop list
<highvoltage> that would be a list of software that's really buggy or not in a good state that we would look at removing or fixing
<highvoltage> not sure if we should do that before the bug day instead
<Lns> if we cut out packages we don't want to find bugs with...might be a good idea to do that beforehand :)
<highvoltage> yep, I guess we could have a wiki page where people make suggestions for such packages and link to the bug reports
<highvoltage> then it would be easier to make decisions
<stgraber> +1
<Lns> +1
<alkisg> +1, and maybe we can make the final decisions on the bug day?
<highvoltage> yep
<Lns> do we have access to popcon for these packages to gauge how much they're being used?
<highvoltage> yep, that sounds good
<alkisg> The popcon score is in installed in any ubuntu installation, so I think we can check it locally...
<highvoltage> shall we talk about gpaint vs kolorpaint?
<alkisg> I think sbalneav also wants to speak in favor of kolourpaint, so maybe we should wait until he's here? :D
<highvoltage> I just installed both and they seem to be pretty similar in nature, but aparently gpaint has lots of bugs and isn't maintained anymore?
<alkisg> Yes, and also it has many, many less features than kolourpaint
<Lns> what about tuxpaint?
<alkisg> Tuxpaint is good, but it isn't a "classical" drawing program
<Lns> gotcha
<alkisg> E.g. I use both tuxpaint and kolourpaint in the same classroom, for different lessons
<Lns> too bad there's no way to just scale down gimp features to create a simple editor
<sbalneav> Sorry, was late back from lunch
<alkisg> Yeah a simplified gimp would be perfect for the job
<highvoltage> personally I don't have any strong feelings about shipping a kde program as a default paint program. we're shipping the kde libraries anyway
<highvoltage> stgraber: any thoughts?
<stgraber> we have kdeedu already so having one more kde software is fine
<stgraber> it'd be an issue if we were on a CD and needed to add kdelibs to the CD but it's not our case so I have nothing against it
<highvoltage> we don't really seem to have any arguement against replacing gpaint with kolourpaint4, so let's make it so
<sbalneav> +1
<alkisg> +1!!!
<highvoltage> ok cool, done.
<highvoltage> sbalneav: what's happening in sabayon world?
<stgraber> just need someone to give me a patch for edubuntu-meta and the seeds :)
<sbalneav> Sabayon works great!
<sbalneav> gksu is borken :(
<highvoltage> stgraber: I'll get it to you tonight, assuming it's as simple as I think it is :)
<sbalneav> I'll have to fix it tonight.
<stgraber> highvoltage: should be relatively simple
<sbalneav> yesterday, with stgraber's help to fix my bad naming, sabayon 2.29.5-rc1 made it into lucid
<sbalneav> anyone put any thought into bugs that bug them for bug day... bug
<highvoltage> sbalneav: excellent
<highvoltage> I put together the Netbook Lucid spec: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Specifications/LucidNetbookOption
<sbalneav> Where's screem at? Have we dropped that entirely?
<highvoltage> not particularly creative but the gist of it is there
<sbalneav> highvoltage: are we talking about an install option from the dvd? Edubuntu netbook?
<highvoltage> sbalneav: yes
<highvoltage> sbalneav: so it won't be a seperate installation disc or anything
<sbalneav> cool, that'll be nice.  I know trask will like that for his open1to1 project.
<highvoltage> haven't spoken to him in a while :)
<sbalneav> He's doing some stuff with netbooks and edubuntu
<highvoltage> cool
<highvoltage> we should interview him some time
<sbalneav> Since I'll be heading up the bug day, I'll post something to edubuntu-dev and -user
<highvoltage> I think we should actually interview users and feature them on the website
 * alkisg tried the current edubuntu daily build, and the autologin is broken on the installer, so one has to create a new user from the console to be able to login and get on with the installation... it should be fixed for people to try the daily builds before the bug day :)
<highvoltage> I've been looking at other drupal themes yesterday so that we can replace that broken one we have currently
<sbalneav> Who should fix that login bug?  stgraber, have you looked at the daily build scripts?
<alkisg> I don't know if it's edubuntu-specific, but Lucid alpha didn't have it.
<stgraber> not yet, though I'm not sure we have anything custom there, is that only Edubuntu-related or is it also broken for current Ubuntu daily ?
<alkisg> My bandwidth isn't good enough to try 2 dailys at the same day :D
<highvoltage> my bandwidth is fast enough it's just a pity it costs me around US$15 to download each iso :/
<alkisg> Ouch
<highvoltage> actually I think I could get one of the universities to mirror it for me
<highvoltage> stgraber: you have an Ubuntu Drupal theme that works well don't you?
<stgraber> highvoltage: yep, the one on ubuntu.com and brainstorm.ubuntu.com
<highvoltage> I'm kind of undecided whether we should stick to something that looks very ubuntu'y again or do something more creative and different
<highvoltage> xubuntu.org broke away from the rest
<sbalneav> For the bugsquad:
<sbalneav> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/~edubuntu-bugs/+packagebugs
<highvoltage> I guess it would be easiest starting from the ubuntu'y theme
<highvoltage> stgraber: where can I get that drupal theme?
<sbalneav> how do we update the package list?  There's probably some things that should be added/dropped
<stgraber> highvoltage: there's one in the ubuntu-qa-website project and I believe some locos actually created a project for the official theme
<highvoltage> stgraber: ok I'll look it up
<stgraber> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-drupal-theme probably
<highvoltage> sbalneav: I believe it's at https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/edubuntu.lucid
<stgraber> sbalneav: ^ feel free to propose patches to that branch and I'll review + push (as it's in ubuntu-core-dev)
<Lns> The more we change, the more we support ourselves
<sbalneav> Well, for instance, tcm's dead, so we should drop it.
<sbalneav> ditch gpaint in favor of kolourpaint, etc.
<sbalneav> Everybody pimped for bug day?
<sbalneav> err
<sbalneav> pumped
<Lns> sbalneav, the current tcm is dead...the new TCM is building toward a new release, i'm talking with moldy right now and he's rewritten 90% of the code and we're meeting tomorrow to discuss short term goals
<highvoltage> sbalneav: yeah I be pimpin'
<sbalneav> Well, I suppose you could be pimped.
<HedgeMage> highvoltage: sorry, I am just getting back to the computer -- what are you seeking to theme?
<sbalneav> Lns: figure we'll have it for lucid?
<Lns> sbalneav, that would be an awesome goal to meet...what's the deadline?
<highvoltage> HedgeMage: fixing the edubuntu site, stgraber pointed me to where a better ubuntu base theme is available that we could use
<sbalneav> Feb's feature freeze :(
<moldy> hi
<highvoltage> hi moldy
<moldy> Lns just pointed me here
<Lns> moldy, February is the feature-freeze for lucid...what is your opinion on tcm being ready at that point if we push forward from this point on?
<HedgeMage> highvoltage: The next few weeks I'll be swamped, but after that ping me and I'll see if I can help (Drupal is what I do for a living anyway)
<sbalneav> there a bzr or git branch of tcm-ng yet?
<HedgeMage> highvoltage: what is the target date for the redesign?
<moldy> Lns: it's sure not completely unrealistic
<highvoltage> HedgeMage: no target date set, but the aim is well before Lucid is launched
<Lns> sbalneav, https://launchpad.net/tcm-ng is the project page
<highvoltage> HedgeMage: but there's lots of work to be done, so when you're ready let me know
<moldy> at least not if we limit ourselves to getting the more basic features polished and postpone work-intensive nice-to-have stuff until after lucid
<Lns> sounds sane
<highvoltage> HedgeMage: btw, nice seeing you here again :)
<HedgeMage> highvoltage: np
<moldy> sbalneav: the bzr branch on launchpad does not reflect the current state of the code though... i worken again in the last few days after a long break from tcm... that work has not been pushed yet
<HedgeMage> highvoltage: are you suitably multitasking that I can pm you for some details?
<moldy> sbalneav: so you might want to wait another few days before checking it out :)
<sbalneav> That's fine.
<highvoltage> HedgeMage: yep, just making changes to the seeds and taking notes and looking for a theme, I can handle another discussion just fine :)
<nixternal> hola
<HedgeMage> heh
<HedgeMage> Salve, nixternal :)
<highvoltage> Salut, nixternal
<moldy> sbalneav: by the beginning of next week, updates should get to launchpad
<sbalneav> If we had some basic functionality with tcm-ng, and a working sabayon & pessulus, management wise, we'd have a winner with Lucid.
 * nixternal notes we need to put our meetings on the Fridge
<moldy> sbalneav: what are the most important features for tcm, in your opinion?
<nixternal> I have a little script that updates my meeting info presented in my screen bottom bar
<sbalneav> moldy: the three questions that get asked of me all the time are:
<sbalneav> 1) How can I see what processes are running from a thin client?
<sbalneav> 2) How can I kill said processes (runaway firefox, etc)
<sbalneav> 3) How do I look at the person's screen (vnc)
<highvoltage> nixternal: screenshot please :)
<Lns> sbalneav, 1 + 2 are already polished afaik, in addition to running new processes on client(s)
<sbalneav> If you could ship something that did at least 1 & 2, that'd be a huge bonus
<moldy> sbalneav: i see. 1) and 2) were basically supported by the traditional tcm, i think, and are still supported now.
<highvoltage> sbalneav: #4 would probably be "how do I display a presentation or demo on all the displays?"
<nixternal> http://nixternal.com/files/byobu.png  <- highvoltage
<sbalneav> highvoltage: yeah, you see that less often, but that's one too.
<Lns> a big one for me is being able to reboot/shutdown clients from a central workstation
<sbalneav> sure.
<sbalneav> the VNC one's a tough cookie to crack..
<moldy> sbalneav: though it is per user, not per ltsp session... if the same user is logged in from a terminal client *and* by ssh or a local console, then you will see all his processes... i don't know of a clean way to change this.
<sbalneav> moldy: that'd be fine.
<moldy> i know josh has been looking at vnc support
<stgraber> moldy: take the sshd process and then go through all of its children
<sbalneav> moldy: did the post I pointed you at and the tips alkisg gave you solve the messaging issue?
<moldy> sbalneav: basically yes, by teaching me the important environment vars
<sbalneav> At this point, a working *something* would be better than a pie-in-the-sky *wait-til-post-lucid*
<moldy> stgraber: good idea, if there is a way to differentiate the ltsp sshd process from other ssh processes of the same user
<sbalneav> and worse case scenario, per our announcement, we can always provide updates with new functionality post-lucid in the edubuntu-dev ppa's
<moldy> sbalneav: though i think in the current state, it only works with LDM_DIRECTX enabled
<sbalneav> that'd be fine.  I'd wager better than 90% of the people run ltsp that way.
<moldy> good. i agree, better to have something working for lucid and provide improvements via ppas than to have nothing.
<sbalneav> Personally, my recommendation would be, focus on getting polish on what you've GOT over the next month, so we can get something in for lucid's release
<sbalneav> yeah
<Lns> +1
<Lns> vnc has been a notorious pain to get going but hopefully after tomorrow we'll have a good plan of action to tackle that
<sbalneav> then we can say, "Look, we've actually got some management tools this time around.  tcm-ng + sabayon + pessulus + a possibility of an ldap setup config = a huge lowering of the learning curve to set up an edubuntu lab
<stgraber> sbalneav: we also have italc in the default install
<highvoltage> btw, I notice the Drupal version on the Edubuntu site isn't as horribly outdated as I thought it was
<moldy> stgraber: unfortunately, i know no way to decide which sshd process belongs to ltsp and which one does not
<highvoltage> did anyone here happen to update it? :)
<alkisg> +1 for italc
<sbalneav> stgraber: I've been seeing a lot of "whaa, italc doesn't work" messages.  Is it working?
<alkisg> sbalneav: that's mostly because of a bad wiki page :(
<sbalneav> ah
<stgraber> sbalneav: well on the few thousands thin clients we manage, it seems to do
<stgraber> issue is that some people expect that full screen demo will work just fine with something VNC based and are surprised when it takes a lot of memory and bandwidth ;)
<Lns> Personally I've seen a lot of weirdnesses in the gui for italc as well as overall stability (it just didn't work consistently)..it's been a while, however, so i don't know its current state
<alkisg> It *does* have several bugs (e.g. I wasn't able to get broadcasting to not crash in my lab), but usually it's workable out of the box
<stgraber> upstream is doing a full rewrite so it should drastically improve in the future
<moldy> that's interesting
<alkisg> It's also very good that it's cross platform. I do hope we see a 2.0 release in 2010....
<Lns> tcm-ng on the other hand will have the advantage of being UI agnostic..moldy and yanqui have done a great job of separating back-end from front-end to make (alternate) interfaces easy to create
<highvoltage> not that I want to cut this discussion short, but are there any other items for the meeting?
<alkisg> I've made a script that can be used to share the edubuntu dvd over NFS, by just running it from a PC booted with that dvd. It should help in cases where edubuntu can't be installed because the PC doesn't have a DVD drive and doesn't support booting from usb. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LiveCDNetboot#line-75
<alkisg> ...and the script is here: http://wiki.ubuntu-gr.org/sch-docs/livecd-netboot?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=livecd-netboot
<Lns> nice alkisg =)
<highvoltage> alkisg: cool
<Lns> is that something that can be easily made portable for other dists?
<highvoltage> I noticed that no one added their prefered meeting times to our doodle calender yet
<alkisg> Sure, I've just hardcoded the path to the kernel (/casper/vmlinuz)
<alkisg> Other than that it should be fairly portable.
<highvoltage> is doodle something we actually want to use then or should we just decide the next week's meeting every week?
<Lns> highvoltage, doodle url?
<highvoltage> http://doodle.com/ntsueczcb565itih
<highvoltage> the idea was that we fill in a month advance at a time and decide early on meeting times so that it can go onto the fridge, etc and that people can know well in advance when the next edubuntu meetings will take place
<highvoltage> anyway, let's decide for next week's meeting so long?
<highvoltage> Wednesday the 6th at 19:00 UTC again?
<alkisg> Personally I've filled it up the first times, but I didn't see any "copy-paste" ability and I was bored to fill the same entries again and again... :(
<sbalneav> Same bat-time, same bat-channel works for me.
<highvoltage> it is a bit boring, but it only takes like, a minute to fill it in for an entire month :)
<alkisg> +1
<Lns> same bat-time works for me too
<highvoltage> heh, ok
<highvoltage> then it is so
<Lns> so i'm assuming we're not doing fridays as a set day anymore
<sbalneav> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R31ge09jaXw
<highvoltage> Lns: we haven't for ages
<highvoltage> Lns: we had complaints from some people that they can never attend fridays
<highvoltage> Lns: doodle.com is working nicely for some ubuntu teams so we decided to try it out, but it doesn't seem all that popular with edubuntu folk :)
<alkisg> I've never seen them on any meeting since, though :)
<Lns> to me doodle.com is just another link i'm going to lose :)
<highvoltage> the edubuntu doodle link is linked from the edubuntu meeting agenda page
<highvoltage> and that is included in every meeting announcement
<highvoltage> and meeting minutes that gets posted to the list
<moldy> deadline "february" for lucid means what exactly? last day of january? ;)
<Lns> oh ok
<highvoltage> so you'll have to make a good effort if you really want to lose it :)
<alkisg> moldy: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucidReleaseSchedule
<moldy> alkisg: thanks
<Lns> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/Meetings/Agenda for agenda
<highvoltage> Lns: yes, in the top section there's a link to doodle and the fridge
<Lns> yep
<moldy> i am very unfamiliar with the ubuntu processes... so if anyone wants to help us in getting tcm-ng in for lucid, that would be great :)
<highvoltage> moldy: if it's in good shape and the packages are in the archive, then it shouldn't be much of an issue to have it included at all
<Lns> Here's kind of the "master page" for TCM, has links to everything relevant: http://logicalnetworking.net/wiki/doku.php#projectthin_client_manager_tcm
<alkisg> Btw, tcosmonitor is a similar app, moldy you might find some useful code in it.
<highvoltage> ok, let's take this to #edubuntu
<moldy> highvoltage: i assume we need an ubuntu dev to get the packages into the archive?
<highvoltage> thanks for taking the time to be here everyone
<alkisg> Thank you highvoltage, thanks all.
<Lns> thanks highvoltage, et. all =)
<Lns> er..al ;)
<highvoltage> moldy: I'll answer in #edubuntu
<highvoltage> thanks everyone!
<highvoltage> *bong*
<moldy> highvoltage: sure, thank you. thanks everyone.
<stgraber> thanks
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-12-30
<Sagaci> hi, is the ubuntu server meeting held in here?
<erichammond> Sagaci: Today's meeting is skipped.  The next one will be January 6.
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-01-02
<AnmolASarma> Testing
<AnmolASarma> done
<AnmolSarma> Ubuntu Manual
<AnmolSarma> hey ya wassup?
<AnmolSarma> every thing 5ne?
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<AnmolSarma> wfuck off!!
<AnmolSarma> fuck off
 * elky blinks.
<AnmolSarma> Hello
<humphreybc> gidday
<humphreybc> blah i made that coffee far too weak
<popey> AnmolSarma: please ensure your language is family friendly, unlike earlier today
<AnmolSarma> extememly sorry
<AnmolSarma> that was not me
<humphreybc> Oo are you getting into trouble O.o
<popey> humphreybc: I promoted the meeting on identica/twitter
<humphreybc> hi popey, thanks a lot - are you on the mailing list?
<popey> not yet
<humphreybc> no problems
<humphreybc> here's the agenda for today: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual#Meetings
<humphreybc> we're still a few minutes early so we'll give the others a few minutes to get here :)
<AnmolSarma> kk
 * issyl0 will be just watching :)
<tacantara> Good morning from GMT -5 (US East).
 * brobostigon is also present
<humphreybc> Hi there tacantara
<humphreybc> Haha sorry to get you up so early!
<humphreybc> It's just pressing on midnight down here in New Zealand
<tacantara> No problem...got plenty of coffee :)
<humphreybc> so have I, only got home from work about half an hour ago
<humphreybc> sweet looking like we've got a good turnout :)
<nigel_nb> popey: thanks for the identi.ca warning, I think I'll join you guys on this project
<popey> excellent
<humphreybc> awesome, the project page is: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual
<popey> I'll just be lurking for now, am making lunch :)
<humphreybc> and of course the team page is just https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual
<humphreybc> cool cool
<humphreybc> so 3 minutes, no rush
<humphreybc> this must be one of the first meetings for 2010
<joe__> Good morning everyone
<humphreybc> for those just joining us, here's the agenda for today: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual#Meetings
<humphreybc> we've got quite a lot to get through :)
<joe__> woops, need to change my nick
<humphreybc> good morning joe
<humphreybc> Is Ryan Macnish here?
<jmburges> thats better, and good morning humphreybc
<humphreybc> good evening over here :)
<jmburges> where are you located?
<humphreybc> new zealand :)
<humphreybc> GMT +13
<jmburges> excellent, well in DC its 0600
<humphreybc> nice early start to your weekend :S
<jmburges> haha
<jmburges> late night
<humphreybc> So are we missing Jamin Day and Ryan Macnish?
<humphreybc> hmm, well i'll give them till 5 past and then kick off
<humphreybc> ah cool here's Ryan
<humphreybc> hello nisshh
<nisshh> hey
<nisshh> sorry im a bit late
<humphreybc> no problems
<humphreybc> we're just waiting till 5 past to see if we can catch Jamin Day
<nisshh> kk who else is here?
<humphreybc> There's quite a few present, good turnout
<nisshh> cool
<AnmolSarma> I'm back
<humphreybc> beaut
<AnmolSarma> what did i miss?
<nisshh> good
<humphreybc> nothing
<humphreybc> we're starting in 20 seconds :)
<nisshh> not much
<AnmolSarma> ok
<humphreybc> alright well, if everyone's happy, i'll start the meeting
<humphreybc> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 05:04. The chair is humphreybc.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<humphreybc> Okay so welcome everyone
<nisshh> in the mean time if you look iv uploaded some of chapter 7 to lp:ubuntu-manual
<humphreybc> For those who haven't seen it yet, here's the agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual#Meetings
<humphreybc> oh awesome, I will have a look at that a bit later
<humphreybc> so the first topic is the change to plain text
<nisshh> and added some stuff to the readme
<humphreybc> neat
<humphreybc> So I decided the other day to change from docbook to plain text
<humphreybc> and you can see my justification here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual#Technical Details
<humphreybc> what does everyone think of using plain text over docbook?
<nigel_nb> humphreybc: did you guys think of asciidoc?
<humphreybc> Obviously it won't give us any formatting, but the plan is to leave the formatting to later
<dutchie> my first thought'd've been TeX to be honest
<jmburgess> I think that down the road, it could lead to a lot of headaches with formatting
<jmburgess> yeah I agree with dutchie on using TeX
<humphreybc> nigel_nb and dutchie: I've actually had a couple of people email me suggesting some other alternatives
<humphreybc> so by TeX you mean LaTeX?
<nisshh> its now 7 past, should we start or wait?
<humphreybc> we've started :)
<dutchie> yeah, LaTeX
<humphreybc> perhaps you've got serious lag or something nisshh
<humphreybc> Okay well i'm unfamiliar with LaTeX - could you just run over the benefits of using LaTeX?
<nigel_nb> the ubuntu community learning project uses asciidoc, so just a suggestion
<dutchie> well, the formatting is built right in, it's mostly just plain text with a few \command{arg} bits
<dutchie> loads of packages to extend it as well
<humphreybc> right, so compared to docbook, which uses HTML, how easy would it be for someone who doesn't know HTML to pick up and use?
<humphreybc> and also to convert what we've got so far?
<jmburgess> it also was made to do this sort of thing, it has packages for things like inserting highligted code
<humphreybc> I've also had Pascal Bach email me suggesting Restructered Text, which I said I would bring up
<dutchie> Probably easier to convert than docbook
<nisshh> i do have lag
<dutchie> I'd say it's on a par for learning
<nisshh> but its gone
<humphreybc> Okay
<jmburgess> yes it is on par with learning html, if you have had no html experience but there are GUI latex writers
<nisshh> i like the plain text but i would like to know more about LaTeX
<humphreybc> So what do you recommend for the game plan - convert current plain text to LaTeX asap, and then use that right through the milestones? I presume it can output to PDF etc
<dutchie> yeah, PDF is no problem at all
<dutchie> I think using LaTeX from day 0 is much easier than plain text then putting the formatting in later on
<humphreybc> Okay, for converting what we've got, would you like to give me a hand with that next week, if we vote to switch to LaTeX?
<jmburgess> i can easily help, it isn't too bad
<jmburgess> Though we need to make and decide on a latex template to use
<dutchie> I'd be happy to invest some time, not going to have a huge amount of free time over the next few weeks though
<AnmolSarma> it should not take much effort
<humphreybc> My plan was just to use the plain text for content, and then basically copying/pasting the whole thing into an openoffice document to do formatting and images - then using different branches and series on LP to sort out the merging.
<humphreybc> But if LaTeX is a viable alternative, i'd be happy to put my vote in for that.
<humphreybc> Okay awesome, so it looks like we're switching to LaTeX. Would anyone who knows more than me (which is everyone!) like to update the relevant sections on the wiki with LaTeX information?
<jmburgess> I would be happy to work on a document template, and maybe write up a brief how to
<nisshh> arrrr still getting lagg
<humphreybc> jmburgess, that is awesome
<humphreybc> nisshh - what client are you using?
<nisshh> irssi
<jmburgess> yeah I will work on it today
<AnmolSarma> try this http://webchat.freenode.net/
<nisshh> what should i be using?
<nisshh> kk
<humphreybc> jmburgess - would you like to take that under your wing, and i'll write up a blueprint for it after the meeting. What's your launchpad username?
<jmburgess> humphreybc: Yep, I can do that, my launchpad username is joemburgess
<humphreybc> Okay and you're a member of the team?
<jmburgess> correct
<humphreybc> So just before we end this topic, is everyone happy with the switch to LaTeX?
<nisshh> ok lag fixed for now
<jmburgess> yes
<tacantara> Works for me.  I'm not familiar with it, but there's a good LaTeX primer at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LaTeX
<AnmolSarma> is Texmacs any good for latex?
<nisshh> so will we vote on latex
<dutchie> AnmolSarma: don't know, I use latex-suite for vim ;)
<humphreybc> cool, so nisshh just to summarize if you've missed anything, we've decided to change to LaTeX and do away with plain text and ODT
<jaminday> ok with me too - will have to get up to speed but happy to do some reading
<nisshh> texmacs being a latex version of emacs?
<humphreybc> jmburgess is going to help with converting the current plain text to LaTeX, and writing a short howto
<dutchie> once the template is set up I'll help out with the conversion
<humphreybc> Okay so i'm just going to do a vote under MootBot, once I issue VOTE, then just use +1 or -1 to vote yes or no
<humphreybc> [VOTE] Change to LaTeX
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Change to LaTeX.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<jmburgess> dutchie: Thanks, whats your launchpad username so I can email you or something
<humphreybc> +1
<nisshh> ok got it
<MootBot> +1 received from humphreybc. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<MootBot> Private +1 vote received. 2 for, 0 against, 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<KelvinGardiner> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from KelvinGardiner. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<dutchie> +1
<tacantara> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dutchie. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<jaminday> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from tacantara. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<MootBot> +1 received from jaminday. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<dutchie> jshholland
<MootBot> Private +1 vote received. 7 for, 0 against, 0 have abstained. Count is now 7
<nigel_nb> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nigel_nb. 8 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 8
<AnmolSarma> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from AnmolSarma. 9 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 9
<nisshh> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nisshh. 10 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 10
<humphreybc> okay i think that's an overwhelming majority in favour :)
<humphreybc> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 10 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 10
<humphreybc> Fantastic, that's the first topic sorted out. :)
<nisshh> whats next?
<humphreybc> Okay, so next topic: Sourcing Images
<humphreybc> The agenda is a wee bit out of order sorry
<humphreybc> but that's alright
<humphreybc> so basically I put this in here so we can decide on what sort of images to use, where we're getting them from and whether we are going to create some custom diagrams or not
<humphreybc> Obviously we'll need screenshots, although translating for screenshots will be an effort
<humphreybc> A picture is worth a thousand words, and I think we need to have lots of screenshots - so maybe this translating problem might have to be dealt with. Thoughts?
<nisshh> well png is good for format
<jmburgess> and png is good for latex as well
<humphreybc> Yep png is pretty much a given
<jaminday> anyone in charge of translation yet?
<humphreybc> Okay perfect
<nisshh> jmburgess: good
<humphreybc> jaminday, no we haven't had much interest in translation so far :S
<tacantara> I agree with the use of more screenshots.  As a fairly new user (still under 1 yr) I haven't found a manual with enough screenshots
<nisshh> nope no one
<humphreybc> Unfortunately I'm not fluent enough in German to do any translations
<dutchie> witht the translations, I think we could have "partial translations" available where the text is but not the screenshots aren't
<nisshh> does anyone here speak a second (or more) language
<humphreybc> sure, until at least we get enough interest for more people to help translate
<AnmolSarma> I do
<_jbl_> I do: french, english, danish
<humphreybc> I'm not sure we are going to get many translations out in time for Lucid
<nisshh> yeea
<humphreybc> I mean, we are pressed for time just for the english version
<_jbl_> re screenshot translation issue: some sort of macro that translators can use to generate the same screenshot in their locale ?
<humphreybc> So i think translations can be a goal for Lucid +1 and beyond
<nisshh> yes
<jaminday> agreed - perhaps english should be the focus initially then expand later?
<humphreybc> jaminday - yes that's a good idea
<nisshh> but possibly for 10.10
<humphreybc> Exactly
<AnmolSarma> we should probalbly leave the translating to the respective LoCos
<jmburgess> we will need to do some recruiting
<dutchie> maybe not leave it to the LoCos, but coordinate with them
<humphreybc> Sure, if you know anyone who helps translate other docs and has some spare time on their hands, point them our way
<AnmolSarma> well yes coordinate with them
<nisshh> agreed
<humphreybc> Once we do get the english version out for Lucid with much gusto, we should hopefully attract enough attention for some translators
<jaminday> agreed
<humphreybc> it would be nice if we could get some ubuntu members with their feed aggregated to the planet to give us a shoutout *cough cough*
<dutchie> popey has already pimped the meeting on twitter
<nisshh> hehe
<humphreybc> That's just a side note actually, if you do know anyone that has their blog on the planet, please send them the links to the project - I've already been talking with Jono Bacon and he's going to have a look next week hopefully
<jmburgess> nice
<humphreybc> We do need all the help we can get if we want this out in 4 months :)
<nisshh> yes true
<humphreybc> Okay, so back on topic - screenshots are good, translating them we shall leave to the future for now. Someone needs to start sourcing images
<dutchie> throwing together basic diagrams in inkscape shouldn't be too hard
<jaminday> i can do screenshots via virtualbox once content is written...
<humphreybc> Also, the images should really be taken from the Lucid Alpha
<humphreybc> jaminday, that sounds great
<nisshh> goof
<humphreybc> i'm running Lucid in VBox too
<nisshh> good
<humphreybc> so we can coordinate on that
<tacantara> I'm running Lucid on a separate partition, so capturing screenshots shouldn't be too difficult
<nisshh> i will get lucid in vbox
<jmburgess> Im running Lucid on a spare machine so screenshots can be pretty easily gotten, do we have a sort of, screenshots I need page?
<humphreybc> jmburgess - fantastic idea!
<humphreybc> I will write one up on the wiki tomorrow :)
<jaminday> i'm assuming screenshots should be taken from a 'vanilla' install to avoid reader confusion
<humphreybc> Yes that would be best
<jaminday> ie default wallpapers/icons etc
<jmburgess> jaminday: that makes the most sense to me
<nisshh> not yet
<humphreybc> Of course we needn't worry about stuff too much yet, because Lucid is in Alpha only
<humphreybc> and things will change
<AnmolSarma> a lot
<jaminday> agreed - maybe something to be aware of as it gets closer to release perhaps
<nisshh> but we should make one for artist contribs
<tacantara> True....some of the Lucid branding hasn't made it in yet (check the Help page, still refers to it as Karmic)
<humphreybc> So for now I'll start compiling our list - of course having the content will help some more. As another side note, does LaTeX have something like notes?
<humphreybc> And the default wallpaper doesn't make an appearance till late Beta/RC normally
<humphreybc> So this could get tight - we may have to wait for screenshots till the RC of the manual, I think that gives us two weeks before Lucid release
<dutchie> notes? like footnotes or comments? (it has both)
<humphreybc> comments
<jaminday> yes thats what i was thinking
<jaminday> still compiling a list of 'screenshots needed' or something would help
<humphreybc> So when we're writing things and the author feels an image would be good to complement his text, he should put in a "note/comment" that says "image of such and such should go here"
<jmburgess> humphreybc: Yes It has comments
<humphreybc> jaminday - yep I've noted that down, and I'll do that tomorrow. I'll churn through the Table of Contents thus far and pretty much start out
<humphreybc> Also, feel free to add to/change the wiki page if you like
<dutchie> it autogenerates ToC as well
<humphreybc> You don't have to ask me for permission or anything - just at the bottom in the section "comments" mark what you've changed :)
<nisshh> dutchie:good
<nisshh> ok
<humphreybc> awesome - so that's screenshots, now onto diagrams/artist images - stuff that's uniquely created for this project. a) Do we want/need it, and b) where/who are we going to get it from?
<nisshh> If you screw the wiki page up you are responsible for reverting your changes though
<humphreybc> nisshh - haha yes that's a good point, be careful :)
<jmburgess> i think we may or may not need it, and we will probably be making them in the early editions
<humphreybc> So for the artwork/diagrams - I can't actually think of much that we will need them for
<tacantara> If we grab images from, say, Google, is that considered in the public domain, or will there be problems with using images from sources like that?
<humphreybc> Perhaps the odd icon or something every now and then where there is a big hunk of text to break it up would be nice
<humphreybc> so it's not so full on
<dutchie> tacantara: you have to look at the individual focus
<jmburgess> tacantara: I think we need to look into where it is hosted and such
<dutchie> focus? source
<nisshh> we may need a few but probably not many
<humphreybc> For anything that's not Creative Commons, I believe you need to ask the owners permission
<jaminday> humphreybc - yes lots of pictures = less daunting
<humphreybc> I'm sure most people will be stoked about their artwork going into a publication
<jaminday> for the average reader anyway
<nisshh> plus alot of google images are watermarked
<AnmolSarma> you can get the icons from icon packs from gnome look etc.
<humphreybc> that's true
<nisshh> good point
<jmburgess> humphreybc: have we decided on a license for the manual?
<dutchie> there should be plenty of screenshots, I'm not sure about where we'll need diagrams
<humphreybc> Okay, well for now I think that's pretty much covered - we can talk about that at the next meeting, when the content is in place
<humphreybc> jmburgess : that's next on the agenda :)
<KelvinGardiner> It would be good to use the default Ubuntu icons fro tip boxes etc.
<jmburgess> humphreybc: woops! your right
<humphreybc> jmburgess: no worries
<humphreybc> Okay so everyone happy with the images topic? Any further comments?
<humphreybc> Sweet, moving on then - next on the agenda: Licensing of the manual
<dutchie> isn't the GPL pretty code-centric? shouldn't we be thinking more about the GFDL or maybe CC?
<humphreybc> Now i know hardly anything about licensing
<humphreybc> dutchie: exactly, see I know nothing :)
<nisshh> isnt CC for artwork and such?
<humphreybc> that's just a placeholder really until we came to this meeting
<dutchie> I don't know much more
<AnmolSarma> which version of cc ?
<humphreybc> Someone emailed me a great link on open source documentation licensing
<humphreybc> but i've lost it now
<nisshh> and what does GFDL stand for?
<humphreybc> Is there anyone else in the room that knows a bit more about licensing?
<dutchie> Free Documentation Licence, either GNU or General
<jaminday> i know nothing...
<dutchie> wikipedia uses it
<AnmolSarma> GNU
<humphreybc> GNU?
<humphreybc> okay
<jmburgess> I know that CC is generally for written things as well
<humphreybc> which version? GPL v3 or 4?
<nisshh> ah ok be worth looking into
<jmburgess> The ubuntu documentation wiki is CC
<humphreybc> right... I'll get in touch with some of the docs team and talk to them
<AnmolSarma> GPL v4?
<nisshh> is it really?
<AnmolSarma> there is a v4?
<popey> no
<humphreybc> apparently
<nisshh> didnt know that
<humphreybc> or is it 3?
<humphreybc> v2 and 3?
<KelvinGardiner> CC is simple to understand, I'd say go for CC.
<nisshh> nope
<nisshh> no v4 yet
<jmburgess> https://help.ubuntu.com/legal.html
<humphreybc> CC it is then
<humphreybc> I will confirm with the docs guys first though
<AnmolSarma> CC has multiple variants
<KelvinGardiner> Which CC?
<humphreybc> yeah exactly haha
<AnmolSarma> see this
<AnmolSarma> http://creativecommons.org/choose/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://creativecommons.org/choose/
<nisshh> there is a main one
<humphreybc> interesting how mootBot didn't pick up the https...
<jmburgess> They use ShareAlike which means you can do whatever as long as you share with the same license
<jmburgess> humphreybc: good point
<nisshh> ah yes, best to talk to doc guy first but i am for CC
<jmburgess> agreed
<AnmolSarma> how about CC-GNU GPL
<humphreybc> okay well it looks like it's CC something a rather, but i'll sort that out over the coming days and let everyone know via mailing list
<humphreybc> AnmolSarma: That sounds like just about everything! :)
<dutchie> wikipedia is dual-licenced CC-BY-SA and GFDL
<dutchie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Copyrights
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Copyrights
<nisshh> ok, next topic?
<humphreybc> yep next topic
<humphreybc> Bzr familiarity
<nisshh> who is and who isnt?
<humphreybc> Hmm well I think I just put this in here to make sure everyone knows what's happening with bzr
<humphreybc> And also I'm still looking for someone to check my entry on the wiki about it
<jaminday> i have basic familiarity from playing with it over the last few weeks
<humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual#Using bzr
<jmburgess> I use it for my coding work at school, so I am pretty familiar
<nisshh> oh sorry i did check you wiki entry the other day its pretty alright
<humphreybc> Okay cool - yeah as it says on the wiki entry, I only created the project, so I never had to actually get it from an already established branch
<nisshh> iv been using bzr since mid last year
<tacantara> I finally got it figured out yesterday, and was able to download/upload to LP
<humphreybc> tacantara: good to hear
<AnmolSarma> But i can't seem to connect through a university proxy
<AnmolSarma> was able to work from my home connection tough
<humphreybc> Okay so we seem to be all good there, AnmolSarma - there is some information on proxy bzr somewhere, perhaps on the official Bazaar documentation (link on our wiki)
<jmburgess> AnmolSarma: does your university blcok ssh connections
<nisshh> ok
<AnmolSarma> will try and figure it out
<humphreybc> Cool cool
<humphreybc> next topic, Approver for main release blueprints
<humphreybc> Now at the moment I've set that to me, but it should really be the Team I think
<nisshh> yes agreed
<humphreybc> Okay cool, i'll change those around tomorrow
<humphreybc> Moving on, next topic: Overall Goal Revisions
<humphreybc> Now, that stands at the moment as:
<humphreybc> Well written and easy to follow
<humphreybc> Professional appearance in keeping with the Ubuntu image
<humphreybc> Detailed, but not overwhelming
<humphreybc> Revisions every 6 months to keep up to date with each release
<humphreybc> (it's the second chapter on our wiki)
<nisshh> i think we a good in this regard
<humphreybc> I just came up with these off the top of my head, what does everyone think?
<nisshh> nothing needs changing really
<KelvinGardiner> Sounds good.
<humphreybc> Okay cool, that makes that easy :)
<jaminday> agreed though one question regarding 'well written' - i'm assuming you want it to be pretty reader-friendly
<humphreybc> Now, next topic that I put in today was the feedback from KelvinGardiner
<humphreybc> yep hang on, jaminday - it does need to be reader friendly
<jaminday> not too 'professional' or overwhelming
<humphreybc> So you think that we need to swap out the well written with something else?
<nisshh> maybe easy to understand or something
<KelvinGardiner> humphreybc: Do you want me to put the email in pastebin?
<humphreybc> Kelvin, yes that would be very useful
<humphreybc> nisshh - that's what I tried to convey with the "easy to follow"
<jaminday> no its ok just wanting to clarify where it's targeted and to what level of complexity
<nisshh> ah yes i see
<humphreybc> So basically, by "well written" what I mean is that it should be in a consistent, up to date style that flows well and has no errors etc
<humphreybc> obviously consistency will vary between authors
<nisshh> ah, perfect then.
<KelvinGardiner> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/350369/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/350369/
<humphreybc> but we can slowly iron that out
<humphreybc> Okay awesome, so we're set on that. If anyone has any comments regarding the goals, either email the mailing list or put a comment at the bottom of the wiki page
<KelvinGardiner> There was an anti-openoffice bit I've removed.
<humphreybc> So, back to Kelvin's email, he sent me this today and he does have some good points
<nisshh> reading it now...
<dutchie> the email seems to make sense
<humphreybc> I agree entirely with his points on the chapter changes, re-ordering and adding a chapter on wine. Also combining 8 and 10 seems logical
<jmburgess> humphreybc: I agree with the combining, I keep wanting to add updating to my chapter 10
<jaminday> also agreed with clarification on useful apps
<dutchie> definitely change "Packaging" to something else. It means nothing to a new user, and an experienced one may think of it as building packages
<tacantara> The online resources is a good idea.  Things like the "Linux isn't Windows" webpage is a great read for people who are new to Ubuntu
<humphreybc> As for the first point about using the community docs, I feel that we should use them as a foundation to get the idea for something, and as cross-checking with them, but we need to write it from scratch, as the ubuntu docs are often outdated and inconsistent
<AnmolSarma> agreed
<jmburgess> yep
<nisshh> all good points
<humphreybc> Ideas for packaging? Useful Apps chapter is on the agenda for today a bit later on
<AnmolSarma> what about splitting the book into 2 parts?
<jaminday> humphreybc: ok np
<humphreybc> AnmolSarma - yes I haven't thought about this bit yet, was waiting till tonight
<humphreybc> Thanks I almost forgot
<nisshh> anmol: explain more please
<nisshh> why two parts?
<humphreybc> For me, i'm not too worried - it could make sense splitting it into two parts, but whether it's necessary or not I'm not sure. We could just bunch the harder stuff up near the end
<AnmolSarma> that sounds good
<humphreybc> nisshh: Two parts, first half for complete beginners, second half is aimed at advanced users (terminal etc)
<nisshh> what like a basic and advanced?
<dutchie> maybe part 1 and part 2 - "Stop reading here if you don't care about advanced stuff"
<AnmolSarma> maybe a 'meta' chapter in the end
<jaminday> yes the manual could have a complexity gradient of sorts
<nisshh> ah yes ok.
<humphreybc> It was always going to have a complexity gradient under the surface
<KelvinGardiner> One advantage to having two parts is we can focus on the beginner part and leave the advanced part of we run out of time.
<jaminday> ah ok
<humphreybc> So the user should slowly be able to progress through each chapter
<dutchie> probably worth making the complexity gradient explicit
<nisshh> i think part of getting the complexity gradient right is re-ordering the chapters
<jaminday> dutchie: agreed
<humphreybc> Kelvin, that is a good idea - so if we were going to split it into two parts, the cutoff would be at the end of chapter 5, but with chapter 8 moved back
<dutchie> so we can say in the introduction "no need to read the whole thing, stop when you're happy" or some such
<humphreybc> and chapter 10 combined with 8
<humphreybc> Which would give us a fairly even 6 and 4 chapter ratio for the two parts
<dutchie> sounds good
<humphreybc> Okay, well I will put it to a vote, any last comments on this?
<nisshh> and maybe split chapter 7 into a bit of basic and the a heap of advanced stuff in part 2
<jmburgess> nisshh: yes because terminal stuff can be quite huge (and daunting)
<humphreybc> I think the terminal should be completely left out of the first half
<nisshh> exactly
<dutchie> no terminal stuff in the first half
<KelvinGardiner> humphreybc: I agree.
<jaminday> how will overlap of content be managed
<nisshh> ok
<dutchie> how much is this going to deal with KDE/XFCE?
<humphreybc> Okay, well I agree to two parts - it makes sense. We can concentrate on the first half in case we run out of time, it saves absolute beginners reading the whole thing, and it widens the target audience.
<humphreybc> dutchie - Not much at all - it's the "Ubuntu Manual" for now, perhaps in the future if it becomes popular and the demand is there, we can branch off for the "Kubuntu Manual" and "Xubuntu Manual" etc
<nisshh> dutchie: not much unless we include a section for DE's
<dutchie> OK, just wanted to get that straight
<humphreybc> Awesome, so I'll put it to a vote for the half/half thing
<AnmolSarma> so it's no longer "The Beginner's Manual"
<AnmolSarma> good
<humphreybc> [VOTE] Explicitly splitting the manual into two halves, the first being for Beginners and the latter for more Advanced users
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Explicitly splitting the manual into two halves, the first being for Beginners and the latter for more Advanced users.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<dutchie> +1
<humphreybc> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dutchie. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<MootBot> +1 received from humphreybc. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<KelvinGardiner> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from KelvinGardiner. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<nisshh> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nisshh. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<tacantara> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from tacantara. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<AnmolSarma> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from AnmolSarma. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<jaminday> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from jaminday. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7
<humphreybc> AnmolSarma: For simplicities sake, I dropped that title for now
<humphreybc> We can decide on another title later if Canonical aren't happy with us using "Ubuntu Manual" (which is a possibility)
<humphreybc> okay, ending the vote
<humphreybc> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 7 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 7
<nisshh> true
<AnmolSarma> so we should send them a shout around alpha?
<humphreybc> Okay, now onto the next topic - if someone would like to take over chair for a minute I'm just going to pop for a toilet stop. The next topic is "Review of the current series setup on Launchpad" and basically deals with whether we need more than one branch.
<jmburgess> ok
<humphreybc> AnmolSarma: I'll talk to Jono Bacon a bit later on about the title
<jmburgess> Do we need more than one branch?
<jmburgess> What would it be used for?
<nisshh> not at this stage i dont think
<dutchie> I can't see a reason unless we start doing a Kubuntu Manual or whatever
<nisshh> but maybe later on
<nisshh> there are a multitude of different ways we could structure it
<AnmolSarma> Translations too will probalbly need separate branches
<KelvinGardiner> We should have a branch fro each release, Karmic, Lucid, etc. But not for now.
<jmburgess> Right, I agree with you all
<humphreybc> Cool, back. Sounds good, so just one for now.
<nisshh> Kelvin: good point
<jmburgess> yep
<humphreybc> Awesome, moving on - Alpha Release - what we need to have ready by then
<humphreybc> Now, this is sort of roughly outlined in the blueprint
<humphreybc> But, because we've been changing from ODT to docbook to plain text to LaTeX we've been a bit delayed
<nisshh> the blueprint covers it nicely
<humphreybc> and the alpha release is basically less than 30 days away - can we get the content written and edited in 30 days?
<jmburgess> humphreybc: I think we can get it written in 30 days, maybe not edited
<jaminday> agreed - a rough edit perhaps
<nisshh> i can write my whole chapter in a week probably
<jmburgess> Also keep writing in plain text, its going to take me a day or so to create the latex template
<humphreybc> "This release should have the basics of all 11 chapters in place, in rough draft format. The text should be there, but images and references might not be. Formatting and Styles will still need to be confirmed and implemented in the beta release."
<nisshh> but no one has claimed several chapters
<humphreybc> That's what we've got so far
<tacantara> Which chapters are still unclaimed?
<humphreybc> Yeah that's the other thing, we need to get those missing chapters assigned
<humphreybc> A lot of them
<humphreybc> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual
<humphreybc> I need to create blueprints for 1 and 2, which I've already written
<nisshh> i might grab another chapter
<humphreybc> but we've got 4, 5, 6, 8, 11 still
<humphreybc> I'll tackle 5 I think as well
<dutchie> I could have a bash at 4
<jaminday> I could have a go at 8
<jmburgess> well I now have 8
<nisshh> i might grab 11 also
<AnmolSarma> 5 and 11 call for collaboration
<humphreybc> So, if we break down that summary for alpha. The basics of all chapters in place, in rough draft - I think this is doable
<jmburgess> Well I am doing 10 already so 8 kinda falls in my court, but jaminday if you want 8 we can bring them together
<humphreybc> Awesome - also for those of you in here "lurking" just taking a look, don't panic if you think we've stolen all the work - there will be a lot more to do than just writing the chapters :)
<KelvinGardiner> I'll do 6.
<jaminday> jmburgess: agreed. Should 8 and 10 be merged into one chapter?
<humphreybc> Awesome guys, this is great stuff!
<dutchie> Reviewing merge proposals will do as editing
<b1ackcr0w> is there one you'd be happy to give a newbie?
<humphreybc> If you all could create the blueprints where they're missing for each chapter, following the way the current ones are made, and assign yourselves
<nisshh> dont forget you can also suggest bits in the chapter blueprints, thats collaboration
<humphreybc> Hi blackcr0w
<b1ackcr0w> hi
<humphreybc> Have we got one for blackcr0w guys?
<jaminday> dutchie: ok no problem
<jmburgess> jaminday: I am going to add the ch 8 stuff to my ch 10 blueprint, and I have already started it with rev. 14 on bzr but you can write the apt related stuff
 * b1ackcr0w writes training documentation for bespoke software at work
<dutchie> I'd appreciate some help on 4, I've got a busy few weeks coming up
<nisshh> im sure theres one you could do
<humphreybc> blackcr0w - chapter 4?
<b1ackcr0w> ok - i'll have to look up what that entails
<AnmolSarma> I could help on 4
<dutchie> b1ackcr0w: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual#Proposed Table of Contents
<jaminday> jmburgess: ok i'll take a look
<humphreybc> It's basically "around your desktop" - so explaining what the core programs do, how to configure simple settings, and that's about it really
<humphreybc> Oh and explaining panels etc
<AnmolSarma> So, I'm still doing referencing/fact-checking right?
<tacantara> Rather than writing a chapter, I'd like to assist in editing.  I could probably benefit the project more by brining in  a "noob" perspective
<humphreybc> AnmolSarma - yep sure thing, if you think you've got enough time
<b1ackcr0w> 4 - magic that's right up my street
<dutchie> tacantara: I think if you just read what's going on and fire suggestions at the mailing list
<humphreybc> tacantara - sure, Jamin's on editing at the moment - You and Jamin can collaborate
<jaminday> tacantara: help with editing would be welcomed
<b1ackcr0w> I'll work with anmol on that
<AnmolSarma> ok
<nisshh> cool
<humphreybc> Okay cool I'll let you guys sort it out amongst yourselves - just to make all this communication easier, could I request that everyone updates their contact details on their own personal Launchpad account?
<humphreybc> Email and IRC are preferable
<humphreybc> And I need to get our own channel.... :S
<dutchie> and join the team
<nisshh> sorry to be hasty but iv got to go out in about 40 mins could we speed this up a bit
<humphreybc> Okay, back on track, the next half of the summary for alpha reads: "The text should be there, but images and references might not be. Formatting and Styles will still need to be confirmed and implemented in the beta release." - I think this is pretty much sorted, that makes sense. I'll change it to "but images will not be"
<humphreybc> nisshh - yep we'll try, it's taking a while!
<humphreybc> Okay, moving on, Formatting - this is a biggy. Does LaTeX support something like CSS styles, so we can change one setting and everything will change?
<humphreybc> (That's another reason why I liked ODT)
<dutchie> I'm pretty sure it does
<nisshh> it looks like it from what iv seen
<humphreybc> Righto, so for now I think we'll stick with the formatting that's pretty much outlined in that PDF available for download on the project page
<nisshh> sounds good
<humphreybc> nisshh - if you have to leave, that's all good - I'm going to write up a summary of the meeting tomorrow and mailing list it to everyone anyway
<AnmolSarma> great
<nisshh> ok, thanks for letting me know
<jmburgess> dutchie, it easily supports styling
<humphreybc> Cool, next, Editing - I think we covered this above - there's not a whole lot to talk about here, just usual things, grammar, spelling, phrasing - if it's something major then perhaps talk to the original author and see what they have to say. If we try to get it right when we write it in the first place, then the editors job will be easy.
<jmburgess> humphreybc: I will try and get close to that styling in the pdf
<humphreybc> Does LaTeX have spellchecking? It's always useful
<humphreybc> jmburgess: that sounds great
<nisshh> couldnt spellchecking be done by whatever text editor your using?
<jaminday> humphreybc: agreed. Perhaps if authors are ok with minor changes being made to their work (eg spelling, rephrasing an awkward sentence etc) but major reworks taken back to the original author
<dutchie> latex is more a markup, the editor has to spell check
<jaminday> ?
<AnmolSarma> sounds good to me
<humphreybc> Okay well just going off what I've seen so far, everyone seems to have a fairly good grasp of the english language so I don't think we'll have any problems there :)
<dutchie> (by editor I mean text editor)
<nisshh> dutchie: right
<humphreybc> Beaut - moving on, Chapter 9 - Useful Applications
<humphreybc> Take a look at the list and fire me some changes
<dutchie> maybe split them up into "in the repos" and "not in the repos"
<humphreybc> Currently, VLC, Banshee, Google Chrome, Cheese, Sun Virtualbox, Jokosher Audio Editor, Ubuntu Tweak
<nisshh> maybe add the GIMP since it wont be in lucid
<AnmolSarma> ipod management?
<humphreybc> dutchie: For simplicity sake I was going to try to just have stuff that's in the repos - actually, Ubuntu Tweak isn't so we'll have to reconsider that
<AnmolSarma> right
<humphreybc> Yeah the GIMP is a good addition
<jmburgess> Amaranth: I feel like that can be under Banshee
<jaminday> will we cover adding ppa's in this chapter
<nisshh> and PiTiVi is a good vid editor - easy to sue
<nisshh> use
<b1ackcr0w> ubuntu one?
<tacantara> But, while Sun VB is in the repos, the version available at Sun's website is much beter
<humphreybc> Ubuntu one is included by default... or is it?
<jmburgess> nisshh: I feel like trying to explain PiTiVi in a page or two might be somewhat daunting
<nisshh> jamin: might be better in the advanced section
<dutchie> I think we need to cover installing packages from outside the repos - i.e. avoid compiling from source
<b1ackcr0w> but getting an account isnt
<brobostigon> humphreybc: in karmic ubuntu one is there by default, yes.
<tacantara> If I recall correctly, Ubuntu One is default in Lucid
<KelvinGardiner> maybe we could use the apps here : https://launchpad.net/b-sides
<humphreybc> tacantara: True, but I think by Lucid they would have pushed it upstream... maybe a note at the end of the chapter saying something like "For the latest versions, always check the program site" or something
<dutchie> KelvinGardiner: good plan
<humphreybc> Ah, B-Sides. Good idea.
<humphreybc> dutchie: Yes I was going to try to stay with .deb packages from external sources, and also PPAs...
<humphreybc> no compiling from source, that's far too hard for this manual
<jmburgess> I feel like in the beginner section, there should be nothing on adding external sources
<humphreybc> So we think add the Gimp and Pitivi to the list, remove Ubuntu Tweak (because it's not in the repos)
<humphreybc> jmburgess: That is quite a good idea, because the default repos have a tonne of stuff anyway
<dutchie> it does seem that newcomers often end up trying to install random tarballs off project websites when applications are in the repos
<humphreybc> dutchie: They're used to downloading .exes
<AnmolSarma> true
<humphreybc> So we need to make this totally clear
<dutchie> humphreybc: exactly, we need to explain that things are different
<humphreybc> Who's doing the Packaging (or whatever we are calling it) chapter?
<jaminday> i guess that's jmburgess and I will be contributing
<humphreybc> Oh it's chapter 4
<humphreybc> "Applications"
<AnmolSarma> Right, make it clear that there is no need to go the project's website
<jaminday> ah sorry wrong chapter
<dutchie> OK, I'll be sure to make that clear
<humphreybc> Okay cool, so yeah, you'll need to make it clear the differences between Windows and Ubuntu in regards to acquiring software
<humphreybc> It could almost be in bold...
<nisshh> it NEEDS to be in bold rofl
<humphreybc> Sweet as, next agenda is Screenshots and Artwork... we've already covered that so I'll skip it, so that has Glossary of Terms
<humphreybc> that leaves*
<tacantara> Would it be too confusing to add a proviso, i.e. "if you must donwload from a website, seek out a .deb package?
<dutchie> or an upstream repo
<humphreybc> tacantara: Perhaps somewhere in the advanced section
<nisshh> i think GoT should be done after alpha but before beta
<jmburgess> nisshh: I agree
<humphreybc> Okay so I'll make the milestone beta? I think it may already be that
<jmburgess> And latex has a built in ability to create indexes
<humphreybc> jmburgess: awesome!
<nisshh> goofd
<dutchie> latex has a built in ability to do a hell of a lot of stuff
<humphreybc> Alright, so that's set - next, reviewing of release dates. https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual
<jmburgess> As well as glossaries so formatting wise we should be good
<nisshh> good its powerful then
<humphreybc> If everyone wants to go there and have a look at the milestones
<nisshh> i think the current ones are good
<humphreybc> We've got Jan 31 for Alpha, March 15 for Beta (This gives us tonnes of time, a month and a half) and then April 20th for RC
<humphreybc> If we must, we can push alpha back to Feb 15th
<dutchie> Do we need that much time between Beta and RC?
<nisshh> yes because beta is the main tweaking period
<humphreybc> dutchie: I'm not sure, perhaps not - If you see the reasoning it's mainly to catch out changes for Lucid
<humphreybc> The RC does need to be quite late, for that exact reason
<humphreybc> So that we can get any changes in Lucid
<humphreybc> after all, this will be a Lucid manual
<nisshh> when lucid final?
<humphreybc> released on the same day as Lucid, so it needs to be current, an RC any earlier than the 20th and we'd be missing last minute changes
<humphreybc> Lucid final is the 29th April
<humphreybc> same day as our final
<nisshh> ah ok
<dutchie> if the RC needs to be that late, we could push back the alpha and beta
<dutchie> maybe a week or so
<humphreybc> My goal is to have the manual featured on the www.ubuntu.com download page right beside the download link for Lucid
<humphreybc> dutchie: That's a good idea, how about the Alpha is pushed back to the 10th Feb or something?
<humphreybc> And leave Beta how it is
<AnmolSarma> The Lubuntu approach, eh?
<jaminday> that would allow more time for writing content
<humphreybc> .. which is the main part, after all
<jaminday> yep
<humphreybc> so that makes sense. Everyone agree on the 10th Feb?
<humphreybc> Or even the 15th Feb
<nisshh> yes
<jaminday> aye
<humphreybc> Just on the note of milestones, what is everyones' thinking on the time we've given ourselves? Is it enough?
<AnmolSarma> should be enough
<humphreybc> Four months to write a fully featured beginners manual from scratch
<jmburgess> It sounds like enough to me
<nisshh> i think so
<humphreybc> Okay cool, awesome
<jaminday> as long as we can get LaTeX going and content written
<humphreybc> So 10th or 15th?
<AnmolSarma> a day after Valentine's? Not such a good idea
<humphreybc> Haha okay 10th it is
<AnmolSarma> :)
<dutchie> agreed
<nisshh> why not>
<jaminday> hehe
<jaminday> busy night?
<humphreybc> haha
<jaminday> editing i mean...
<humphreybc> Righto, now we're onto the last two items - any feedback or questions?
<nisshh> lol
<AnmolSarma> Games!
<nisshh> not at this stage
<humphreybc> Now's the time to ask anything, as the next meeting won't be for at least 3 weeks
<humphreybc> Games - a chapter on games...
<humphreybc> hmm
<AnmolSarma> The one question that every linux user dreads
<nisshh> good idea but near the end
<AnmolSarma> Can I game on it?
<humphreybc> Advanced section? Not really :S
<nisshh> of the manual i mean
<humphreybc> Yeah, near the end of the first half
<humphreybc> What chapter could it fit into?
<tacantara> Games would take us into WINE, and that's more of an advanced topic
<dutchie> OK, I'm off for lunch
<humphreybc> I like having 10 chapters as a nice easy number
<AnmolSarma> A couple of 'serious' games for linux
<humphreybc> Well we sort of decided that we need something on Wine
<humphreybc> dutchie: Okay, see you later. Thanks for coming
<jaminday> perhaps wine should go in useful apps section
<nisshh> yes]
<humphreybc> I agree
<jaminday> chapter 9
<humphreybc> Okay cool
<AnmolSarma> I was thinking native linux games
<nisshh> yep
<humphreybc> and somewhere in the first half we need to allude to wine
<humphreybc> native linux games, hmm chapter 9 again, or even chapter 4
<humphreybc> Just mention they've available in the Software Center
<humphreybc> that sort of thing
<jaminday> with a link to a good website
<humphreybc> Make it clear there ARE games for linux
<AnmolSarma> right
<humphreybc> contrary to popular opinion
<humphreybc> but it's not really a manual on gaming
<humphreybc> so an introduction, allusion to chapter 9 where we have some detail on wine, that's about it really for games
<AnmolSarma> A list of sorts maybe
<nisshh> Ok, iv got to go now too, humphreybc can you remember to post the details of the next meeting somewhere?
<humphreybc> nisshh: Yep it'll be on the wiki
<nisshh> and cya later
<humphreybc> thanks for coming
<nisshh> ok cool
<humphreybc> we could have like the authors' picks of 5 games or something
<AnmolSarma> yeah
<KelvinGardiner> we can link to playdeb
<humphreybc> I often end up googling "top ten linux games" because I don't know if any are serious or just crappy 2D
<humphreybc> Yep sure thing
<humphreybc> okay, any other questions/comments?
<jaminday> just found this http://gwos.org/doku.php/games:start don't know if it's any good
<humphreybc> worth looking into some more
<humphreybc> Okay, so time/date for next meeting
<jaminday> KelvinGardiner: or mention playonlinux
<humphreybc> We'll need one in about 3 weeks to basically check how our progress is going with the chapter conten
<jaminday> this time of day works well for me
<humphreybc> Unless you guys are keen for weekly meetings? If we're on such a tight schedule this could be a good idea
<jmburgess> humphreybc: weekly meetings work for me
<humphreybc> I don't mind having weekly meetings on a Saturday, but we do need to set a time. I don't finish work till about 1030 UTC
<jmburgess> I mean do we want to try it and if we can't come up with anything then we can switch to less often
<jmburgess> 11UTC works for me
<humphreybc> Of course, future meetings will be way shorter
<jmburgess> hopefully :)
<jaminday> i could attend fortnightly at 11utc
<KelvinGardiner> Sunday is better for me. I can only do every other Saturday.
<AnmolSarma> 1100UTC is good for me
<tacantara> Weekly "briefs" with a good, comprehensive meeting once a month?
<tacantara> The 1100 UTC is a good fit for me
<humphreybc> tacantara: Yeah optional briefs
<humphreybc> okay weekly optional briefs each week, at 1100 UTC either Saturday or Sunday (which one?) and then a big meeting once a month or something, or even just when we need it
<AnmolSarma> And a wiki post of waht transpired for those who could not attend ?
<AnmolSarma> *what
<humphreybc> AnmolSarma - Yeah I can do that, or mailing list, probably both.
<KelvinGardiner> AnmolSarma: the meeting will be in the Ubuntu logs.
<AnmolSarma> ok
<humphreybc> Going through 2 hours of logs is painful though
<AnmolSarma> right
<humphreybc> I can summarize
<humphreybc> unless anyone else wants the job of note taker....
<humphreybc> I'm happy to do it
<jmburgess> humphreybc: we can switch off if you would like
<humphreybc> ?
<jmburgess> like you write the notes for this one, Ill write the notes for the next one
<humphreybc> Oh sure, yeah okay sounds good
<humphreybc> Righto, next meeting is optional brief, Saturday 9th January at 1100 UTC
<humphreybc> Next "big" meeting (I won't call them compulsary!) is TBA
<KelvinGardiner> I think the bot makes a summary of actions etc.
<humphreybc> Yeah except I haven't used the TOPIC tag
<humphreybc> Summarizing is best I think
<humphreybc> righto,
<humphreybc> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 06:45.
<AnmolSarma> ok
<humphreybc> 1:45 mins later.. phew
<AnmolSarma> :)
<tacantara> I've sat in Army staff meetings that ran longer and accomplished less LOL
<jaminday> well i'd better get going - night all
<humphreybc> Okay guys, thanks for coming, I'll get onto that summary tomorrow, and make some changes to the wiki and launchpad stuff. As for the chapter order, we didn't really decide on much - but it's not important at the moment, we can shuffle chapters around later on
<humphreybc> night guys
<humphreybc> oh just one quick thing
<humphreybc> don't forget to update your launchpad profiles with contact details :)
<AnmolSarma> ok
<jaminday> no probs
<tacantara> will do
<humphreybc> cheers
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-01-03
<emma> unquery
