#ubuntu-meeting 2004-10-23
<highvoltage> hi guys. the meeting here starts in two hours, right? is anyone welcome?
<thom> yep
<thom> see http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/council/document_view
<highvoltage> thanks
<hornbeck> Is the meeting in one hour?
<thom> yeah
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:sabdfl] : Community Council meeting Tuesday 12 October 2004
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:sabdfl] : Community Council meeting Tuesday 12 October 2004 | Agenda on wiki.ubuntulinux.org/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<sivang> and it starts...
<sabdfl> still missing a few
<sabdfl> Kamion, elmo, mako
<sivang> who?
<sabdfl> one down
<sivang> yep
<sivang> paged mako
<sabdfl> anybody seen mako this morning?
<sivang> ah, he's 20hrs idle..
<highvoltage> anyone have his phone number :)
<sabdfl> i think he was up late last night
<mdz> I can SMS Him
<sabdfl> mdz: go for it
<sabdfl> should we begin sans elmo and mako?
<sabdfl> hopefully they will join us. elmo is certainly needed for the release process infrastructure
<Keybuk> elmo was around a short while ago
<sabdfl> hey Keybuk
<sabdfl> let's start, elmo will catch up on scrollback
<mdz> messaged him; the number I have for him is still a Seattle number, though
<mdz> hopefully he hasn't changed it yet
<sivang> i have already did
<sabdfl> oh, i forgot he's on east coast time now, should *def* be up
<sabdfl> well lets start
<sabdfl> agenda
<sabdfl> i put a few thoughts down this morning, there was nothing there yet
<mdz> mako says he's 20-30 minutes away
<sabdfl> let's try to keep this one short, we all have release work to do i suspect
<sabdfl> sivang has this afternoon proposed Documentation Team and Accessibility Team discussion, but i'd like to defer till the next meeting
<mdz> seconded :-)
<sabdfl> sivang: these are mainly Hoary goals, we need to get Warty out the door
<sivang> I see.
<sabdfl> also sivang i didn't see any mention of enrico in your wiki pages, it's really important that he be in the loop, i dont want to have two separate teams
<sivang> sabdfl : I have tried contacting him, he hasn't replied me yet.
<sabdfl> sivang: feel free to ping me privately on irc with an update over the next week
<sivang> sabdfl : I don't mind postponing it for the next meeting, I will try to get in contact with again.
<sabdfl> i'll ask him to respond to you
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> so: warty release
<sivang> ok, that'll be swell, I just think we need to formalize this..
<sabdfl> mdz, want to give us the rundown?
<mdz> ok
<mdz> overall, we seem to be in good shape for tomorrow
<mdz> final artwork integration remains to be done
<mdz> and there is one big bug left on the live CD
<sabdfl> on the artwork
<mdz> nothing else that would upset me if we missed it for tomorrow
<sabdfl> sent a set of images to jdub this morning
<sabdfl> missing one final image which i think just arrived in my inbox...
<Keybuk> are all the GNOME 2.8.1 tarballs in?
<Keybuk> (in upstream, as well as in warty)
<sabdfl> yes
<mdz> I don't have a list, but seb has uploaded many
<sabdfl> need to massage formats, but will get it to jdub this evening
<Kamion> evolution-data-server failed to build on amd64, may need attention, I think seb128 has clocked off for a while
<sabdfl> Keybuk: could you ping seb128 and confirm?
<Keybuk> yeah will ask him when he's back online
<Keybuk> I don't know whether they've all trickled in upstream yet, either.  He'd know, I expect
<sabdfl> ok, so that remains to be confirmed
<sabdfl> what's the big bug in the live cd?
<mdz> hal doesn't start
<mdz> https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1990
<mdz> alex says he will have a workaround tomorrow
<pitti> I would have liked to debug this, but I don't even come this far with the Life CD
<mdz> but that leaves us with no time to test the live CD; hopefully there are no regressions
<mdz> pitti: I already debugged it for him
<mdz> he knows what to do
<mdz> but currently it seems that alex is the only one who can build a working live CD
<mdz> the autobuilding scripts do not produce a working image yet
<pitti> BTW, regarding the life CD: shall #2292 regarded as major?
<pitti> seems to work for some users, so probably not
<mdz> I don't know, you just reported it today and I haven't read my mail yet :-)
<pitti> but I don't know how many people actually tested it
<mdz> it works well for me
<pitti> okay, then we defer that
<sabdfl> ok, got the final image, and will get it to jdub immediately
<mdz> and there have been many downloads, but no other reports
<highvoltage> If I may ask, have the APM kernel support problems been sorted out?
<sabdfl> would we like the RC to be good enough to be a release if we get no new major reports?
<sabdfl> highvoltage: do you have a bug #?
<mdz> sabdfl: yes
<highvoltage> sabdfl: I'll go check...
<sabdfl> i agree
<mdz> I would very much like to release the RC as final
<sabdfl> tomorrow, or by certifying it that way on 20th?
<mdz> the live CD is my biggest concern there
<mdz> sabdfl: well, it'd just be too cute for it to go out on my birthday...:-)
<mdz> let's see how we feel about the RC once it's in hand
<highvoltage> sabdfl: The problem I've experienced relate to bug: 1890 and bug 2002
<sabdfl> do you want to actually announce it as the final tomorrow?
<Kamion> the installation manual is still very raw; I've made a fair effort at branding it, but it's very recent and few people have looked at it
<mdz> I don't want to commit to that until I've seen the RC
<mdz> but I think we should be open to the possibility
<sabdfl> ok, i think this is optimistic, but share the feeling it would be *great* to get it out the door
<sabdfl> so working on that basis....
<mdz> Kamion: the installation manual isn't shipped on the CD, so it can slip
<sabdfl> what time can we build it tonight?
<Kamion> mdz: look more closely :)
<sabdfl> I think it shold get at least a "Release Candidate Candidate" announcement and overnight smash testing by #ubuntu
<mdz> in theory, both Kamion and I can build CDs
<mdz> Kamion: ah, right.  nobody reads that copy, though :-)
<sabdfl> ah, 24x7, i like it :-)
<mdz> so between us, we have fairly continuous time zone coverage
<Kamion> sabdfl: we need one more debian-installer upload, which I have in hand
<Kamion> sabdfl: but I'm waiting for a few last builds first
<mdz> and then elmo needs to process it by hand
<Kamion> let's say c. 2000 UTC
<sabdfl> ok, so artwork needs to get in, anything else?
<sabdfl> will jdub be around before then?
<Kamion> mdz: I'll be up all night if necessary anyway, same as preview
<Kamion> got plenty of sleep last night in prep :)
<mdz> our kernel isn't 100% on every single piece of hardware that's been tested yet, but that was a rather optimistic goal
<sabdfl> is it... a little warty?
<Kamion> USB keyboards still appear intermittently screwed, see bugs
<mdz> that's currently 5 of the remaining RC bugs
* sabdfl ducks
<sabdfl> is Herbert up for it?
<mdz> these problems just take a long time to debug, due to the back-and-forth with the reporter
<mdz> if we could mail herbert a clone of each machine that failed, I expect they'd be fixed quickly :-)
<sabdfl> teleportation is now just an engineering problem, you know
<mdz> what about that pesky Uncertainty Principle?
<Keybuk> Heisenberg Compensators, you can get them on e-bay
<mdz> the Heisenberg Comp...
<sabdfl> mdz: are you willing to sign off on it with the RC bugs that exist? downgrading those to "slipped"
<mdz> Kamion: beat me to it
<Kamion> the problem with the USB keyboard bugs is that they're totally impossible to debug because no interaction with the machine is possible
<sabdfl> schweet
<Kamion> mdz: YM Keybuk?
<mdz> sabdfl: I'm going to downgrade the kernel stuff right now
<mdz> Kamion: yes
<Henrik> mdz: You don't have to transport exact info on each particle, just molecules. So, that's ok.
<sabdfl> hmm... bummer is, the guy never even makes it to the point where he can download updated packages, does he?
<mdz> another bug currently marked RC is the lack of a local copy of the default browser start page
<sabdfl> sivang: ?
<hornbeck> jdub has it
<mdz> I don't feel particularly RC about that one today
<sabdfl> i can draft the copy, right away
<mdz> but it's easy
<sabdfl> should reference ubuntu, linux, gnome, debian, openoffice I think
<sabdfl> what url for linux?
<Kamion> there've been installer changes today which should be safe but I'd like a bit of testing tonight
<mdz> whichever URL for Linux we use on the website
<Kamion> mostly the base-installer thing for mdz
<sabdfl> i don't know that we do
<highvoltage> will Ubuntu 4.1 support Propability drive?
<mdz> highvoltage: only finite improbability
<Kamion> it's 4.10 :)
<mdz> the infinite improbability drive is a Hoary problem
<sivang> sabdfl : sorring, reading scrollback before
<Kamion> hmm, we could time-travel and release in January 2004
<highvoltage> Kamion: sorry- my floating point support is still under development
<Kamion> mdz: really HOT cup of tea
<sabdfl> that would be 4.01
<highvoltage> that would be nice :)
<sabdfl> k let's move on
<mdz> the 4.1 vs. 4.10 thing comes up a lot
<Kamion> aye. highvoltage, use fixed-point :)
<sabdfl> release process
<sabdfl> what times?
<mdz> sabdfl: shall we load-test the website before the release announcement this time?
<sabdfl> how do we do that?
<Kamion> CD build tonight earliest of (2000 UTC, whenever-artwork-hits)
<highvoltage> slashdot :)
<Kamion> heavy testing
<sabdfl> i'm working on a wiki page:
<mdz> sabdfl: a few folks on nearby fast links
<sabdfl> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/WartyWarthog_2fReleaseProcess
<mdz> hammering with ab or something simple like that
<Kamion> do we use tomorrow's daily, or tonight's build?
<Keybuk> mdz: aren't 1922 and 2261 both the same bug?
<Kamion> ab tends to max out the client
<sabdfl> kamion: tonight's unless mdz finds a problem
<mdz> Keybuk: dunno, haven't looked at either one, please make the less informative one a dupe if so
<sabdfl> sivang says he's sent a draft to jdub, i'll need to review please
<Kamion> then we'd better make sure that http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~cjwatson/testing/ is clear
<Keybuk> mdz: they're both RC
<Kamion> which it currently isn't
<Kamion> evolution and firefox locale problems
<mdz> Keybuk: one has the thermal modules failing immediately, the other has kacpid randomly spinning off into nowhere-land
<sabdfl> let's let the tech board decide when it's ready to go, CC just needs to agree the process
<mdz> elmo: do you have contact information for all mirrors?
<thom> for firefox locale, i think the best fix is just to remove -es and -gl, sadly
<mdz> I added a note to the wiki requesting it
<Keybuk> mdz: the reason the fans don't start is because kacpid is spinning -- or perhaps kacpid is spinning because the fans won't start (pick one)
<elmo> mdz: err, no, how could I ?
<elmo> mdz: I have a bunch of mails from folks, but it's not nor ever going to be 'all' mirrors
<mdz> elmo: you know what I mean
<mdz> the ones we list on our web pages
<Keybuk> the NC6000 and NC8000 are, for all intents and purposes, identical laptops (and identical to my NC4010 which exibits the same problems)
<carlos> thom: What's the exact problem with them?
<mdz> Keybuk: I didn't see a mention of kacpid spinning in 2261, but please mark it as a dupe if I missed something
<carlos> thom: bug number?
<sabdfl> Kamion: so build will be ready UTC2000
<mdz> Kamion, thom: do we need to generate torrents by hand, or is that fully automated now?
<sabdfl> can we announce that build on #ubuntu-devel and #ubuntu and mailing lists
<Kamion> sabdfl: that's earliest start time, not finish time
<Kamion> mdz: fully automated
<sabdfl> Kamion: UTC 2200?
<Kamion> but we don't have jigdo yet (crap, I need to forward that mail from Steve to thom+elmo, will do so after the meeting
<Kamion> )
<Kamion> sabdfl: sounds like a reasonably conservative estimate
<sabdfl> le's not worry about jigdo at this point, hoary problem
<sabdfl> kamion: ok UTC 2200
<thom> carlos: we don't have them for firefox 0.9
<thom> the ones in unstable are for 0.8, and i've not found 0.9 ones
<Kamion> we have nearly all the pieces for jigdo, it's a very short piece of assembly now
<sabdfl> Kamion: will you please announce that to lists and irc and ask the willing to test and report any showstoppers?
<thom> if you can point me in the right place i'll look after the meeting
<mdz> let's leave ourselves some slack for a second build&test cycle
<Kamion> I think we should try given Steve's effort, and we can always finish it after release if need be
<sabdfl> Kamion: unnecessary distraction tonight
<Kamion> mdz: 2200 is loads of slack :)
<carlos> thom: ok, let me check
<mdz> FYI, we do not currently have any last-minute surprises of the sort that we expected for the preview
<Kamion> sabdfl: let's say a post-RC problem rather than a hoary problem then, this doesn't need archive changes so doesn't need to be bumped as far as hoary
<sabdfl> ok, ten how long do we want to leave that open for testing before we publish the RC?
<sabdfl> Kamion: agreed
<sabdfl> we can do it this week no problem
<mdz> realistically it takes a bit over an hour to get a full set built, downloaded and tested
<Kamion> mdz: that was at full panicky tilt :)
<sabdfl> will take people an hour to download
<sabdfl> and maybe an hour to install and play
<Kamion> I hadn't even finished a single install when we released the preview, FWIW
<sabdfl> and an hour to report
<sabdfl> so lets give it 8 hours of testing, taking us through to 0600 UTC
<mdz> long night for UK folks :-)
<sabdfl> sounds like a good time to move it to the right place in the archive as RC
<sabdfl> or as final
<Kamion> elmo: can I talk to you after the meeting about the simple cdimage rsync layout?
<mdz> sabdfl: can we get some committed time from non-ubuntu Canonical folks to test the RC?
<sabdfl> mdz: good idea, yes
<elmo> kamion: sure?
<highvoltage> will a copy of this meeting be available for download?
<mdz> highvoltage: it's logged in the same place as other ubuntu channels
<highvoltage> ah, ok. thanks
<sabdfl> so if we publish it in the right place at 0600 UTC, how long before the mirrors have it?
<sabdfl> i'd like the web page to list as many mirrors as possible when it gets /.d
<sabdfl> both of them, at least :-p
<mdz> there are 8 mirrors in the wiki
<mdz> elmo: how many of those do you have contact info for?
<sabdfl> cool!
<sabdfl> so what's the optimal release time?
<mdz> we have no idea what their sync schedule is
<sabdfl> we want the US awake I guess, but we don't want Europe more asleep than usual
<mdz> they're just mirrors that people have added to the wiki
* sabdfl ducks again
<elmo> there's no way we can assume any sort of schedule for the mirrors
<elmo> we either have to sit on the RC for a day, or take the hit from it not being on most of the mirrors
<sabdfl> ok, but i suppose we could kee an eye on them, and as they populate we could manually add them to the page
<sabdfl> i'd like direct links to the right directory from the download page
<mdz> elmo: but if we have an email address, we can tell them about the RC and try to get a commitment for a timely update
<Kamion> or there's the "release on the 20th" approach ...
<elmo> mdz: err, these guys are mirrors, just like Debian mirrors.  
<sabdfl> what about naming? if we call it -rc it will take another sync cycle before they get it as final
<elmo> I don't know what makes you think we can ask for a commitment on anything, least of all < 24 hours before we want it to happen
<sabdfl> so best we be certain
<sabdfl> elmo: chill
<mdz> elmo: I don't see how it can hurt to ask; it's easy to verify whether they have it or not before we put them on the web page
<sabdfl> we'll simply update the web page manually as they sync
<justdave> OSUOSL will pull on a dime if you ask them to
<justdave> don't know about the others
<elmo> justdave: no, they won't
<sabdfl> OSUOSL is not mirroring, i don't think
<sabdfl> they only mirror community projects
<sabdfl> and red hat
<sabdfl> and suse
<sabdfl> :-)
<justdave> oh, they're not?  okay, thought I heard they were earlier
<sabdfl> i'm sure they will, soon
<elmo> mdz: I think it's offensive to ask, but mileage clearly varies
<sabdfl> elmo: agreed
<sabdfl> although I can nudge the safricans
<sabdfl> let's not ask unless it's a mate
<highvoltage> I'm a safrican
<mdz> works for me
<sabdfl> anyhow, we have 1 gbit/s if we can saturate it from London
<sabdfl> there are no caps on that link
<mdz> we'll saturate end-to-end paths first
<Henrik> When I release TheOpenCD I always send a polite email to the mirrors, and the response is usually good
<sabdfl> elmo: can we push out 1 gbit/s from auckland?
<elmo> sabdfl: no
<elmo> the HW can't do it
<sabdfl> what's the limit?
<sabdfl> is auckland on 2.6.8.1?
<mdz> the I/O on that box isn't even close
<Keybuk> I imagine you just can't shovel 1Gbps from the disk, across the bus and out the nic
<elmo> sabdfl: no
<mdz> from the disk, certainly not
<sabdfl> ok, let's not rock the boatnow
<elmo> it was one of the "don't touch" boxes
<mdz> that's over 100mbyte/sec
<mdz> of course, that stuff should all be in RAM...
<elmo> it can do 35MB/s sustained
<sabdfl> hmm... but a lot of it should be in RAM
<mdz> that's fairly crap considering the class of hardware
<elmo> what on earth do you think is going to be in RAM?  we'll be lucky if it keeps the few commonly hit things we have in RAM
<mdz> elmo: it doesn't have the requisite terabyte of RAM?
<sabdfl> hmmm... that's a surprisingly low number
<mdz> we're talking about ~0.5GB of stuff that'll be hit HARD
<sabdfl> i would have though the iso would be in the filesystem cache
<elmo> mdz: what do you think that 0.5Gb is?
<mdz> elmo: the i386 CD image
<Kamion> mdz: how about the archive? that's going to be hit fairly hard too
<elmo> and all the random .debs from the 24Gb archive.. it'sgoing to know to not bring those into memory too?
<sabdfl> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/WartyWarthog_2fReleaseProcess#preview
<mdz> I don't see why the rest-of-the-archive load would be _that_ much higher
<mdz> there will be very few folks doing pure network installs, there'll be very little to upgrade, so it's basically just new package installs from supported/universe
<Keybuk> mdz: the point is, as soon as one person does one, it'll punt the iso image out of the page cache to make room
<elmo> you're assuming all our existing users are current
<elmo> and auckland is busy 24/7 with downloads
<elmo> the HD lights literally do not go out nowadays
<mdz> I'm not; I'm assuming the load caused by our existing users won't change much
<elmo> it might not change, but I think you're seriously underestimating it, if you think it won't be enough to push the i386 ISO out of cache
<Kamion> I think most of them will go and hit apt-get upgrade as soon as the announcement goes out
<sabdfl> are you guys happy to announce at 1200 UTC?
<elmo> like, right now it's serving 80Mb/s
<elmo> if we really want to serve the ISO out of RAM, we should put it on a different, dedicated box, IMO
<elmo> I don't see how else we can guarantee dedicated cache mem for it
<mdz> mako just called, says he'll be on in a few
<sabdfl> elmo: promse to get you better h/w for Hoary. if there's no way to load balance this now, let's just see how it goes
<mdz> sabdfl: 1200 works for me
<sabdfl> mdz: early
<Kamion> I think we should review that at around 0200, see how things are going
<sabdfl> but then, maybe that makes it easier on the bandwidth?
<sabdfl> in fact, an earlier announcement will tend to make the bandwidth move in a wave with timezones
<mdz> elmo: we do have a few spares, do we have one which is installed and online that we could use in that role?
<elmo> we could put it on one of the dell's/HP's sure
<sabdfl> elmo: it could just be a temp web server, which ONLY serves the release directory (i386, ppc, amd64, livecd)
<sabdfl> and we point the web page at that
<sabdfl> auckland can continue to serve the crowd
<sabdfl> mirrors continue as per usual
<mdz> elmo: we could also put a squid accelerator in for cdimage only
<sabdfl> that way we get 35MB/s packages, and at least the same ISO's
<sabdfl> simpler to have a second server
<Kamion> [debian-installer upload complete; should start building shortly.] 
<sabdfl> elmo: want to stress test a dell? they're the fastest boxes, remember
<sabdfl> kthxbye :-)
<mdz> auckland wasn't up to it for the preview; it's not clear how big the RC will be
<mdz> it if ends up being final, I expect it'll be bigger than preview
<Keybuk> sabdfl: you want to break it?
<sabdfl> oh, ok, hp then
<mdz> don't hurt the poor Dell
<sabdfl> maybe we should load up an hp and a dell
<sabdfl> and be ready to switch if there's a glitch
<sabdfl> ok, so let's talk media
<elmo> mdz: how do you mean not up for it?
<thom> rsync them and round robin the cdimage record *shrug*
<elmo> the box itself coped fine - apache didn't but that was a misconfig which has been fixed now AFAIK
<sabdfl> lwn, debian lists, ubuntu lists, python lists
<sabdfl> where else?
<mdz> elmo: so apart from the uplink being maxed out, everything was hunky dory?
<thom>  /. ?
<ogra> sabdfl: german heise
<elmo> mdz: on auckland?  yes
<mdz> it was slow when I tried to access it from chinstrap at the time
<Keybuk> distrowatch, slashdot, osnews, jdub has a list of things
<sabdfl> thom: i don't know if the CSS / JS issue has been solved
<mdz> but that could have been the apache problem, I suppose
<thom> sabdfl: it appears to have been
<elmo> mdz: ftp was fine from chinstrap
<sabdfl> ok, will get jdub to add to the list when he's up
<sabdfl> speaking of which, we can't go without jdub being awake
<sabdfl> he has the homepage and the artwork
<sabdfl> thom: great, thanks
<Keybuk> (btw, did anyone else we passed Gentoo in the Distrowatch chart? :p)
<mdz> that stuff needs to go in well before the final build anyway
<elmo> we should ship everyone to one place for these releases to defeat timezones
<mdz> Keybuk: I noticed we were top 10 like 2 weeks ago
<Keybuk> mdz: we're #7 now
<mdz> we were #9 then
<mdz> not bad for a <1-month old distribution
<thom> sabdfl: ie, everything is being served from the apache cache, and we're able to sustain 70 requests/sec from off network
<sabdfl> great
<mdz> elmo: the international ubuntu command and control center
<mdz> or IUCC (pronounced "yuck")
<sivang> :))
<mdz> mako: we're going over specifics of the release announcements
* mako is very sorry for the late arrival.. i got here as quickly as i could
<mako> mdz: i will catch up on the log
<elmo> mdz: is cricket meant to DTRT with Gb ?
<sabdfl> ok, i'm all done, anything from the tech board?
<mdz> elmo: depends
<mdz> elmo: do you have 64-bit snmp counters available?
<elmo> mdz: err, I dunno
<sabdfl> mdz: all yours to sign off on the release
<sabdfl> i'd like a say if it's going to be final as well
<mdz> ok
<sabdfl> artwork, and homepage, and i'm happy
<sabdfl> Keybuk: the calendar thing is ready to rock, right?
<mdz> I have my Big Red Launch Button prepared
* sabdfl says hopefully
<Keybuk> sabdfl: yeah, provided jdub sets the artwork up right -- I left sufficient documentation in the package
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> will you verify when he's up and the artwork is in for mdz?
<Keybuk> yup, sure
<sabdfl> ok
<Keybuk> it needs to be made the default in the default session too?
<sabdfl> mako, elmo, anything from you guys?
<mdz> elmo: did you get some sleep?
<mako> no.. not right now
<sabdfl> i'm going to try to get six hours sleep tonight to be fresh for the announcements
<elmo> sabdfl: no, don't think so
<elmo> mdz: not enough to prepare for the next 24 hours, I suspect :P
<sabdfl> will be drafting announcements in the morning, mako, jdub wiki-fy your ideas and i'll work over them
<mdz> I plan to try for at least a 20-minute nap myself
<sabdfl> ok, we're done. good luck guys
<mdz> lessons learned and all that
<mako> again: sorry i missed the meeting..
<mako>  i'll reread everything and write a summary as i did two weeks ago
<sabdfl> thanks mako
<sabdfl> anything from guests?
<Keybuk> just checked, the calendar is the default -- so we just need the artwork
<sabdfl> calendar should not be defailt
<Keybuk> shouldn't it?
<sabdfl> we have one with just the ubuntu logo
<sabdfl> will get fewer right wing emails that way
<Keybuk> that'll need a seb-upload to change
<sabdfl> ok, Keybuk please coordinate
<Keybuk> actually, jdub can probably do that one
<Keybuk> it's just a schema change
<sabdfl> ok
<pitti> BTW, somebody asked for 2.8.1 gnome packages
* mako sighs
<pitti> seb128 returned to #u-devel
<mako> today is not turning out to be my best day :-/
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz] : Technical Board meeting Tuesday 19 October 2004 | Agenda on wiki.ubuntulinux.org/TechnicalBoardAgenda
#ubuntu-meeting 2004-10-24
<asw>  /msg nickserv link asw netboy
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-10-24
<robitaille> !meeting set TechBoard 1 Nov 20:00
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 1 Nov 20:00 UTC: TechBoard | 19 Oct 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 19 Oct 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 21 Oct 14:00 UTC: DocTeam | 25 Oct 22:00 UTC: CommunityCouncil
<robitaille> argh...a bug with Ubugtu.  It doesn't sort months properly (Nov before Oct)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 19 Oct 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 19 Oct 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 21 Oct 14:00 UTC: DocTeam | 25 Oct 22:00 UTC: CommunityCouncil  | 1 Nov 20:00 UTC: TechBoard
<JaneW> **Reminder** Edubuntu Update Meeting here, now.
* mhz is present, Miss
<mhz> :D
<ealden> watching :)
<flint> goog morning jane...
<JaneW> hi flint
<JaneW> is ogra in the house?
<flint> where the heck is ollie?  morning ealden...
<pips1> hi all
<ealden> hello flint 
<ogra> whoops
<JaneW> ok well first things first...
<JaneW> Edubuntu 5.10 is out!!!!
<ogra> yeah
<Lathiat> congrats
<segfault> woohoo!
<JaneW> Thanks to EVERYBODY who contributed
<ogra> and we already have some fairly good press :)
<segfault> :-)
<flint> absolutely a good thing...
<JaneW> we really appreciate it
<JaneW> and thanks especially to Mr Edubuntu himself ogra!
<pips1> whoot whoot
<ogra> heh, thanks :)
<segfault> we'll start using Edubuntu here in Brazil, in the so called "Telecentros"!
<flint> indeed!
<JaneW> segfault: great!
<JaneW> ogra: so can you make a call on the CD?
<JaneW> are you happy that we press it as is?
<ajmitch> hi
<JaneW> hi ajmitch 
<flint> I am putting a copy up at the Arlington Housing Coalation.
* ajmitch should *not* still be up & awake for this meeting :)
<ogra> i'm not really 100% convinced we should do it, but the feedback seems to say different... so lets go for it
* JaneW is still gathering qutes for CD pressing, so far Spain has competitive pricing, but we may get the best price from our regular supplier Media Motion
<JaneW> ogra: do you want to wait a few more days?
<ajmitch> how much of that feedback is from people who would use the cd?
<JaneW> does anyone else want to comment?
<ajmitch> and not just people wanting a free cd?
<ogra> JaneW, how many requests like the one from madagascar i forwarded do you have until now ? does it cover some thousand ? 
<JaneW> ogra: that's the only really direct one
<ogra> hmm
<JaneW> asking for 100
<ogra> thats not really moch
<ogra> *much
<flint> Regarding the CD.  Keep in mind the market for edubuntu is the educational institiution.  While they have burners and bandwidth, they often do not have the resolve to use them.  We need a CD run.  How much can this cost?
<ogra> flint, we have approval for some thousand CDs ...
<ogra> flint, but ...
<flint> But?
<ogra> we need to keep track exactly who got them, in which amount, and if it fails, we'll never get money for it again
<JaneW> and no one has bothered to submit anything to http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuShippingPlans
<mhz> JaneW: we want and are planning to have an Edubuntu Tour in some educational instoitutions (about 15, to start). Also, we are shceduling meetings with teachers to invite them to become testers before implemnting.
<JaneW> which is a pre-req for our printing approval, sabdfl wants to review the plans.
<ogra> flint, so if we have the option for only one CD in edubuntu's lifetime at all, i'd rather go with next release
<JaneW> mhz: sounds great
<mhz> so wee need cd's:)
<ogra> the german community saked me for some edubuntu talks on one of the 15 fairs they attend...
<JaneW> mhz: agreed
<mhz> thx
<flint> ok kidos, then which educational segment are you going to target?  primairy, secondary or college?
<mhz> and or t-shirts :D
<ogra> so the requirement seems to be there... but its hard to keep track who got how many Cds if you give them out on fairs
<JaneW> the thing is if we want to drum up support and enthusiasm with this release and raise awareness before the next it would halp to have something to SHOW
<mhz> ogra: agreed
<ogra> flint, you were at the summit, you know what we target
<JaneW> flint: it seems primary with this release, as the reviews have mentioned its very junior school friendly
<ogra> i think currently we dont really target colleg
<ogra> e
<mhz> ogra: what we are planning is "invite to demos", "enter a database", we visit you and demo it in front of Principals and Teachers. There, we provide cd's
<JaneW> secondary age students will possibly find it too juvenile...?
<JaneW> mhz: your approach is good, more hands on and more likley to result in something
<ogra> mhz, but can this cover "some thousand CDs" ?
<JaneW> ogra: rem it;s no more than 500 per country
<flint> i think that the technology would facinate at any level.
<ogra> we need to get them all out to somebody... else it wont happen again
<flint> I think a free CD should accompany every proposal delivered to a school adminsitration....
<ogra> so my concern is that this release is very young, even if people dont seem to notice...
<JaneW> guys if we want this to happen we need to flesh out our distribution plans - see  http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuCDPrintingPlans and http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuShippingPlans
<flint> ...note first use of the word proposal.
<JaneW> if we get that sorted we can press the CDs and I think we can easilly move them
<ogra> the next one will have more gui tools more management software and be a lot more polished
<flint> Dear Jane, a lot of us have to work for a living...
<mhz> ogra: it all depends on resources. Unfortunatelly, we can't afford to travel all around Chile (we'd love to demo all over, but we just can't yet). Actually, 6th Encuentro Linux (linux gathering) starts tomorrow and we couldn't afford the travel and we did not have CD's to give put to people from education.
<mhz> so, 500 cd tops sounds good
<ogra> mhz, i understand... but still, if we fail we wont have the chance again
<ogra> so i try to be very careful with this opportunity
<mhz> ogra: yes. I can assure the hard work from us in Chile. I cannot assure you that after 500 meetings, 500 schools will be using edubuntu :(
<ogra> mhz, thats not the point.... 
<ogra> can you assure that 500 schools want a CD ?
<mhz> nop.
<mhz> 500 teachers and more? Yes
<JaneW> ok, lets tackle this as follows, if you want CDs, get the proposal in...
<flint> ollie, that is why you need proposals.  This situation is different from ubuntu.  it is about schools adminstrators not hackers...
<ogra> and thats the hard part... we need to make sure that there are some thousand people in the world wanting a CD 
<JaneW> we can also speak to sabdfl and get his opinion on whether he thinks the release is mature enough to press to CD (or wait till 6.04)
<ogra> if we fail with this, we'll loose the opportunity to do it with the more polished version
<flint> jane, you do not get proposals you write proposals.  you got them going in the wrong way.  You generate proposals for use of edubuntu in schools.
<segfault> I think 100 cds limit is enough
<ogra> segfault, 500 per country...
<ogra> thats our limit that was set ....
<segfault> nice, but 100 per person
<ogra> heh
<ogra> so 5 ppl per country :)
<mhz> JaneW: current gov. is supporting Edulinux (rpm's) because nobody else has presented another alternative. That we'll do.
<segfault> hehe
<JaneW> flint: Mark just wants to see a plan for WHAT THE CDS ARE INTENDED TO BE USED FOR
<flint> janew, imagine a web site where you write in which school you are from, give some information about the school, and a proposal is printed and is used to wrap a CD which is mailed to the institution.
<jsgotangco> haloo
<JaneW> drafting a proposal to approach a school with would be great, but I need ppl to justify why I should send them CDs to distribute
<mhz> JaneW: ok. he'll have that from us no later than tuesday.
<JaneW> flint: no that's not what we are doing
<JaneW> flint: read the 2 wiki pages, we will distribute to one of our edubuntu LoCo memebers who has prepared a distribution plan for his country
<JaneW> the LoCo person will be the edubuntu hub in their country and will handle the distribution as they see fit, though school, demos, events etc
<JaneW> mhz: great thanks
<mhz> JaneW: Does that mean I gotta become a LoCo memeber?
<jsgotangco> ouch i have no time for that :)
<jsgotangco> mhz: no not necessarily
<flint> janew, you are creating web documents faster than I can read in my spare time...
* mhz relaxes a byte then
<JaneW> ok ogra, the powers that be and I will discuss the merits of printing now with what we have and you guys must motivate why you need/want CDs and what you'll do with them.
<ogra> flint, read them at work then :)
<JaneW> we'll take it from there
* jsgotangco twiddles fingers
<JaneW> mhz: I am using the term LoCo loosely here ... it;s basically the ppl who are involved in edubuntu such was al those who are here...
* mhz agrees and understand JaneW and ogra 'S POV.
<flint> the good thing about all this publishing is I can ask Jane what url is a good t-shirt logo?
<JaneW> jsgotangco: you get your proposal in too! :P
<ogra> in fact for germany it is the loco team that talked to me
<JaneW> flint: you making edubuntu shirts?
<jsgotangco> JaneW: errr...i just need around 100 i don't need that much....
<ogra> i'll poke them to fill out the wikipage
<jsgotangco> JaneW: even 10 will do for me...i got a burner :P
<flint> JaneW, you got a logo?
<ogra> flint, its on the wiki
<JaneW> flint: did you see my edubuntu cake? http://www.flickr.com/photos/13916877@N00/52389874/
<JaneW> ok let's move on...
<mhz> JaneW: what IF we reduced CD's printing/shipping to only 200, top. BUT we invest the rest of $ on T-shirts ?
<flint> ollie, saying it is on the wiki is like saying it is on the computer... n:^)
<JaneW> mhz: I am not sure that's an option, but we can ask...
<JaneW> ok UBZ
<flint> I have now read your plans. jane, will this distribution method penetrate into school systems?
<mhz> flint: search -> title should do :) plus it right on index page :D
<jsgotangco> mhz: not a good idea, you *can't* reproduce t-shirts for people
<JaneW> UBZ is fast approaching, we need to make sure we have all required BOF topics
<jsgotangco> well its not like we'll be there :P
<ogra> i have listed my three main goals ... (centralized user management, thin client local devices, thin client sound)
<mhz> jsgotangco: good point. But, for instance, yesterday I was at a university in which I was invited to go back next weeks to demo edubuntu. I'd love to give at least 3 t-shirts to the more motivated teachers
<JaneW> we also need those that will be present to volunteer to lead BOF and to do pre work and get some of the braindump work of the spec completed
<flint> essentially the distribution method is a further constrained version of the ubuntu distribution method
<flint> I got a tee shirt company around the corner, give me the url for a logo.
<JaneW> ogra: will it be feasible to target an entire school architecture in 6.04?
<ogra> JaneW, sure... 
<flint> JaneW, that is a UBZ question and will require beer in the answer.
<ogra> you can do that now if you want, but it involved knowledge
<jsgotangco> we have schooltool....
<mhz> JaneW: yesterday, ogra pointed me to a very interesting BOF regarding wiki and doc stuff. However, my wife did not allow me to invest on such an expensive trip :( , sorry.
<ogra> its just shuffliny the pieces right and integrate them
<JaneW> http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuLogo
<flint> don't start about schooltool i was on the kb with Tom yesterday.
<jsgotangco> AHHH
<flint> JaneW, Thanks!!!  This way I get the logo correct (for once!)
<JaneW> Tom was less than nice about some of his comments about edubuntu... 'aesthetic disaster'!
<flint> gotta get an audio feed from the bof onto the net.  any ideas ollie?
<ogra> JaneW, the main point for school management is centralized usermanagement... if we got that in and working, we're 80% done...
<JaneW> ogra: great
<JaneW> ogra: is there any chance squeak will be sorted out for 6.04?
<ogra> not really... i can add new images, but thats all, we cant ship it
<flint> people who live in grass housees should not get stoned jane, that is all i will say about that.
<ogra> the license doesnt allow us to put it anywhere else than multiverse, so by default you have to do some manual work to even install it
<jsgotangco> its much easier to actually run squeak in windows
<JaneW> has everyone here seen our new site and wiki designs btw?
<ogra> jsgotangco, yes... 
<JaneW> ogra: are they not going to change their licensing stance?
<ogra> JaneW, squeak is nearly 10 years old, they didnt change it until now even many people requested the change... i doubt it
<jsgotangco> its not like its that easy...
<flint> JaneW, you mean http://www.edubuntu.org/
<JaneW> yes
<ogra> flint, and wiki.edubuntu.org
<mhz> Edubuntu website look and feel is very good. Esp. considering is running Moin underneath 
<flint> squeak rocks...what is the license problem?
<ogra> flint, it forbids direct shipment
<ogra> and it makes the fonts non-free
<jsgotangco> and i believe some of the fonts too
<flint> that is wierd...
<ogra> yes
<ogra> but unlikely to change
<JaneW> just to digress a little to the CD topic, I forgot to mention that mhz arranged the folloing designs for the CD packaging, please have a look and place comments at the bottom of the page.
<flint> ogra, telepathic shippment is still ok then?
<jsgotangco> its well established and we're a tiny speck at the moment..
<JaneW> http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuCdAndSlip
<ogra> This License allows you to copy, install and use the Apple Software on an unlimited number of computers under your direct control.
<mhz> CD's/ yes, please comment on that so I can do changes and close that chapter :)
<ogra> ^^^^ thats the main prob
<ogra> we dont have direct control to any of our customers PCs...
<flint> ollie, these are not PCs they are servers...
<ogra> there is an EXHIBIT A that allows distribution without shipping .... that why we can have it in multiverse but not on the CD
<JaneW> CD PACKAGING:  mhz contributed these designs for the CD packaging http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuCdAndSlip, please have a look and place comments at the bottom of the page.
<ajmitch> ogra: anything packaging-related you want help with for dapper?
<flint> it is a pretty design, I gotta admit. cute kids and all.
<ogra> ajmitch, sure, everything packaging related :)
<JaneW> thanks
<ajmitch> heh
<ogra> ;)
<flint> ollie, is there a live cd with edubuntu?
<ogra> nope
<JaneW> ogra: are you already starting on dapper, or do you need input at UBZ?
<jsgotangco> ajmitch: stop lurking :)
<flint> ok why two cd overlays at the bottom of the page...
<JaneW> flint: there's no LiveCD with this release (nor PPC installer)
<ajmitch> jsgotangco: I wasn't lurking, I said I was here at the start ;)
<JaneW> flint: I think we'll go with the plainer one
<ogra> JaneW, i have enough stuff to polish to start right through (in fact i'm just merging the new login manager into ltsp) but i need input from the ltsp guys at UBZ
<JaneW> ajmitch: was sleeping!
<ajmitch> JaneW: I was?
<ajmitch> I ought to be sleeping
<flint> no, I was sleeping!!!
<ajmitch> it's nearly 2AM here :)
<JaneW> ajmitch: jokes
<JaneW> wow
<JaneW> ogra: ok
<jsgotangco> mhz: add a red stripe or whatever at the bottom of the cd slip at the back, it should add some stuff about Edubuntu, copyright, Canonical, etc.
<ajmitch> and I have a MOTU meeting in ~7 hours to attend...
<flint> JaneW,  on http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuCdAndSlip, bottom of page are two CD screens.  are both used?
<JaneW> mhz: see the website footer for details
<JaneW> flint: I discussed with mhz earlier and I told him I prefer the plainer one, esp as we need to add some text
<mhz> jsgotangco: text/ sure. I just need to make sure the 'art' part is oke before editing texts :)
<JaneW> mhz: must I send you that text again?^^
<flint> for a second I thought that one screen was for side 1 and the other for side 2, :^)
<jsgotangco> text should be easy, just rip form the edubuntu website theres loads
<JaneW> flint: these are just conceptual
<mhz> JaneW: nop, thx
<JaneW> mhz: cool
<JaneW> does everyone like the cover?
<ogra> yup
<JaneW> :)
<flint> aw, the security guy in me wants to screen both sides of the CD.  extra secure that way...
<flint> we could call this sedubuntu
<mhz> are YOU ALL sure you wouldn't prefer a white cd label with edubuntu logo (as it is on right) and red text?
<jsgotangco> it'll look like a blank cd
* ajmitch wanders off to sleep now
<ogra> mhz, i like it as it is shown...
<flint> mhz, the red clearly enrages I am for it.
<mhz> please remember I chose white as symbol of end/begin of something new
<mhz> flint: ok
<jsgotangco> asian countries associate white with death
<jsgotangco> :)
<mhz> yes
<mhz> jsgotangco: death is good, is begining
<jsgotangco> ickkk
<flint> mhz, I still want both sides of the cd screened :^)
* JaneW kicks flint in the shin
<mhz> jsgotangco: plus, the death of old system v/s born of edubuntu :D
<jsgotangco> ackkk spare me the poetic symbolism please... :P
<JaneW> mhz: white slip cover is nice, but with a red CD inside
<mhz> flint: i can do it once you print 10.000 t-shirts and send 1.000 to me :)
<mhz> JaneW: okidoki
<flint> I gotta go scan a data center, an activity I place up there with having rough sex with bad animals.  so I got to go.
<mhz> jsgotangco: but you love documenting, dont you?
<mhz> :)
<JaneW> flint: enjoy (as you clearly do...)
<flint> mhz, I will try to get some ts out the door...
<ogra> flint, have fun :)
<flint> thanks jane.  bye!!!
* JaneW didn;t know flint enjoyed animals so much!
<ogra> heh
<mhz> flint: love what you do
<flint> thanks ollie see you all at UBZ, quiet down jane.
<JaneW> next meeting?
<mhz> ?
<ogra> next week ?
* jsgotangco shrugs  just lurking...
<JaneW> I won't be around this time next week (in plane)
<ogra> yes, me too, as i just see
<JaneW> so it has to be monday, or without me, or deferred
<jsgotangco> just defer it
<\sh> or at ubz
<JaneW> votes?
<mhz> ohhh
<JaneW> we'll be talking lots at UBZ
<ogra> deferred ?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<mhz> come to chile and we have it here
<jsgotangco> or spark a discussion on the list
<JaneW> but do we need anymore on-line meetings before 16 Nov?
<ogra> yes
<jsgotangco> not so much i guess
<jsgotangco> lots of BOF'ing will happen
<jsgotangco> no time for meetings at all for sure
<ogra> i think we wont have clear targets before UBZ (beyond my polish work on ltsp)
<mhz> yes. When will we know if cd's get printed or not?
<JaneW> ok, so nothin official until 16 Nov, but we'll talk as necessary and may call meetings if we want/need to?
<jsgotangco> sure
<ogra> yup
<jsgotangco> other matters, on the list
<mhz> ok
<jsgotangco> put it on fire!!!
<JaneW> mhz: I'll try have a better idea by the end of the week, if not def during UBZ
<JaneW> heh
<JaneW> is there anything else to discuss now?
<jsgotangco> dunno
<jsgotangco> what i had for dinner?
<ogra> not here
<mhz> JaneW: what about local support?
<JaneW> jsgotangco: fascinating! :)
<JaneW> mhz: yes...
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:JaneW] : Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 19 Oct 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 21 Oct 14:00 UTC: DocTeam | 25 Oct 22:00 UTC: CommunityCouncil  | 1 Nov 20:00 UTC: TechBoard | 16 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<jsgotangco> JaneW: pig intestines..in a murky soup base....
<mhz> jsgotangco: piuk!
<ealden> jsgotangco: hotdog?
<mhz> lol
<jsgotangco> ealden: isaw pre...hehhhe
<ealden> jsgotangco: oh! haha
<JaneW> jsgotangco: are you on Fear Factor!?
<jsgotangco> JaneW: that's a local street food
<ealden> jsgotangco: tasted it before.. its nice with vinegar hi hi
<jsgotangco> JaneW: we even eat duck eggs over here with the embryo
<JaneW> jsgotangco: I seen that on Fear Factor too!
<jsgotangco> JaneW: what they eat on fear factor is ordinary food for us....
<pips1> JaneW: I would like to talk about the Edubuntu Website ... Web team... ?!
<jsgotangco> mmm
<jsgotangco> too bad hno73 and highvoltage are not here...
<mhz> Edubuntu WikiTeam
<JaneW> what are we doing about local support though? There's nothing formal and it;s all in formal and voluntary at this point, we only have support throug forum and IRC for now, if we polish 6.04 we can hope to get some more formal agreements in place
<JaneW> oh yes the web team
<jsgotangco> mhz: Edubuntu needs its own wiki team?
<JaneW> highvoltage couldn;t make it...
<JaneW> pips1: can you contact him?
<jsgotangco> JaneW: mmm local support interesting...are we taking SLAs?
<mhz> jsgotangco: not really, but hno73 and highvoltage are the EdubuntuWikiTeam
<jsgotangco> mhz: actually henrik is Mr. Ubuntu Wiki himself
<JaneW> jsgotangco: we will ultimately hope to get a similar arrangement that ubuntu has ITO support infrastructure
<mhz> however, on personal basis, I would prefer to help on Edubuntu wiki pages
<pips1> JaneW: sure... by mail?
<mhz> and then move to ubuntu ones
<jsgotangco> JaneW: oh ok....i'll still slave an 8 - 5 job then 
<JaneW> I think we'll have one web/wiki team, there's very little HTML, most of what we have is wiki
<JaneW> pips1: yes, henrik=hno73=<henrik@ubuntu.com>
<mhz> JaneW: so it is ok if we start a #edubuntu-es? or at least a edubuntu-es ML?
<pips1> well, I spent some time brainstorming about the website today...
<JaneW> pips1: highvoltage=Jonathan=<jonathan@shuttleworthfoundation.org>
<jsgotangco> mhz: eh?
<jsgotangco> mhz: if you have a ton of people, sure
* mhz prefers ML over # for support interaction and #irc for real life
<pips1> I am currently putting stuff up for discussion in the wiki...
<jsgotangco> but if its just a few....
<JaneW> mhz: do you think there's demand?
<jsgotangco> doubt it
<JaneW> mhz: ogra please voice an opinion too, I am happy for 'loco' teams to start up, but bare in mind that we can offer support in those languages so you will need to self manage them...
<mhz> JaneW: not yet, but my concern is service. and so, we start demoing edubuntu next weeks, where should people who speak no english direct ot
<mhz> ot = to
<JaneW> right
<mhz> so far, no need at all, agred. but once people ask.. they need to go somewhere.
<JaneW> mhz: well I am more than happy for translations and local language support etc to happen...
<mhz> ok, then: ThisPage, ThisPageEs, ThisPage/Es ?
<sivang> this is an edubuntu meeting now?
<jsgotangco> sort of
<JaneW> sivang: yes just finioshing
<jsgotangco> just ending
<mhz> jsgotangco: LOL
<JaneW> finishing even
<sivang> :)
<sivang> wasn't listed on the topic
<JaneW> mhz: um... dunno, who has an opinion jsgotangco ?
<JaneW> sivang: it was I removed it a few minutes ago when I added the next meeting date ;)
<jsgotangco> sivang: we're notorious gatecrashers :)
<jsgotangco> JaneW: sure, wiki entries on translations are always welcome...
<mhz> JaneW: will that also mean that 'loco' teams should have their own servers?
<jsgotangco> mhz: edubuntu loco?
<jsgotangco> there is such?
<JaneW> jsgotangco: but should the pages be listed as: ThisPage, ThisPageEs, ThisPage/Es ?
<jsgotangco> oh
<mhz> i dont know, just using what you guys mentioned a little ago
<jsgotangco> I would prefer ThisPage/Es
* JaneW doesn;t know... this is all new to me *wail*
<jsgotangco> mhz: if there's no Ubuntu Chile, start one
* JaneW will have to find out, but I am sure we'll get some kind of loco structure going
<jsgotangco> JaneW: i don't think its needed at the moment
<JaneW> mhz: ok ThisPage/Es then...
<jsgotangco> we're very niche....
<mhz> jsgotangco: ubuntu people concern is ubuntu, not edubuntu.
<JaneW> jsgotangco: I like to think of it as l33t :P
<jsgotangco> mhz: edubuntu is still ubuntu
* JaneW must wrap up now
<jsgotangco> ubuntu people can support edubuntu/kubuntu/xubuntu whatever
<JaneW> feel free to carry on, just clean up and lock the door when you leave.
<JaneW> will see you all in #edubuntu in a bit
<jsgotangco> nahh im gonna start looking at bugzilla
<mhz> jsgotangco: yes and no. If we talk about ubuntu, I can then ask and support for linux generla stuff (kernel, hw, etc) If we discuss about edubuntu is focused on educational tools
<jsgotangco> mhz: whatever its not like the tools are complex, they're quit easy actually but then i am not an educator i wouldnt know how things run so....
<mhz> ok
<jsgotangco> i would tend to think its more social rather than technology involved
<mhz> hmmm, yes maybe.
<pips1> http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuWebsitePlan
<pips1> more to follow... 
<pips1> :-)
<mhz> jsgotangco: yesterday a guy asked me about mp3 conversion. For me, that is ubuntu channel
<jsgotangco> mhz: and a friend of mine installed edubuntu on a laptop...so...
<mhz> hehehe
<mhz> I use this laptop as an edubuntu server :)
<mhz> 'demo mobile'
<jsgotangco> i got 3 ubuntu flavours here
<jsgotangco> ok moving to #edubuntu
<JaneW> pips1: awesome thanks!!!
<cyphase> hey everyone
* ajmitch waits patiently for MOTU to dribble in...
* dholbach is here
* Nafallo is Nafallo Bjlevik :-)
* \sh is always in 
<\sh> or out
<ajmitch> Nafallo: that's useful at a CC meeting, perhaps... :)
<\sh> or on or off 
<Nafallo> that's ALWAYS useful to know when a meeting starts ;-)
* ajmitch guesses the meeting will be nice & short
<ajmitch> all we need to do is say 'bddebian is doing it' :)
* siretart hopes so :)
<siretart> hrhr
<fabbione> evening everybody
<Nafallo> can't we say siretart are doing s/svn/bzr/g to? :-)
<dholbach> hi fabbione 
<dholbach> nice to have you here
<Nafallo> fabbione: evening dude :-).
<fabbione> dholbach: thanks my wife that falled asleep too fast and i am dead bored :P
<ajmitch> hello fabbione 
<Nafallo> hehe
<dholbach> fabbione: that's a good excuse to hang out with motus! rock on! :)
<Loiosh> Haha
* fabbione had other plans for the evening.. MOTU's aren't actractive as wife's boobies
<ajmitch> alright, sounds like it's meeting time
<Loiosh> bd, you got voted into doing everything.
<bddebian3> fabbione: :-)
<dholbach> fabbione: absolutely
<bddebian3> Loiosh: W00t, thanks
<Loiosh> Welcome =)
<dholbach> right... here we go
<ogra> meep
<ajmitch> do we have an ogra?
<ajmitch> we do!
<ogra> :)
<bddebian3> An Ogre?
<sivang> oiii
<dholbach> first item on the agenda is: Is there a need of Kernels in Universe? If so, what are the problems with his, are there any problems at all? I think it would be good, to have BenC or fabbione as (Ex-) Kernel Maintainers for Ubuntu with us in this discussion. (StephanHermann)
<sivang> motu meeting and I'm missing it :-)(
<dholbach> i'm sure \sh will tell us a bit about it
<ajmitch> fabbione: useful that you're here then
<fabbione> ajmitch: that's why i am here
<dholbach> (the agenda is at  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUMeeting )
<ajmitch> ok
<fabbione> \sh: can you please explain everybody what that entry exactly mean?
<fabbione> or who proposed via \sh please speak up
<ajmitch> hi sistpoty 
<ogra> fabbione, you know yourself that we had various requests for patched kernels...
<Lathiat> bing
<sistpoty> hi folks
<ajmitch> fabbione: for example, we would like to have kernels with non-mainline patches, like grsec+PaX
<ogra> low latency audio kernel etc...
<sivang> ogra: that would be nice to have
<fabbione> ok
<fabbione> BenC and I did discuss this issue
<fabbione> and we do not agree to have kernels in universe for several reasons
<ogra> so the point here today is to have a decision if we want to allow such specialized kernels in universe or not
<fabbione> or better
<fabbione> we do agree that we do not want kernels in universe
<fabbione> here is a list of reasons:
<bddebian> It does seem a little touchy
<ogra> bddebian, it is...
<\sh> sry
<fabbione> - there are already too many kernel flavours around and users are already confused anough
<ajmitch> \sh: no matter, I would have raised the question anyway
<ogra> but you force people who want to base work on such kernels to use an external repo
<fabbione> - it will mean for the MOTU's to maintain a duplicate source
<\sh> ohone
<ogra> fabbione, nope
<fabbione> please let me finish
<\sh> phone
<fabbione> if we are here talk, first i want to give out our explanations
<fabbione> otherwise if you already decided, my presence here is pointless
<dholbach> i'm eager to listen
<fabbione> so let's try again
<fabbione> - there are already too many kernel flavours around and users are already confused anough
<fabbione> - it will mean for the MOTU's to maintain a duplicate source
<fabbione> - universe kernel will be highly patches and very difficult to maintain even security wise
<BenC> the problem is that if we start to create specialized kernels, we set a precedent that cannot be stopped
<fabbione> - if we create a kernel for each pet-project inside Ubuntu, we will explode in a thousands of kernels
<BenC> everyone will want their special purpose kernel ot be a flavor in our repo
<fabbione> - the patches you want to apply are extremely intrusive
<ajmitch> in the security case, it was something suggested in the proactive security BOFs at UDU, that we have universe kernels - better suggestions are welcome
<ogra> we wouldnt touch them, the person who brought them in would be tied to them since they would have special purposes i.e. audio team low latency patched
<fabbione> ogra: that does not work
<ogra> fabbione, we didnt even talk about any patches yet
<\sh> damn
<\sh> phone company bla
<ogra> its a discussion if we want to allow it generally
<\sh> ok..now
<fabbione> if universe kernel goes out of sync with main, you get 2 different feature sets
<fabbione> that pushes even more confusion to users
<BenC> ogra: generally, I think any kernel flavors should be closely tied to our main source tree
<fabbione> ogra: that's why i am giving you detailed reasons on why we do not want to allow them
<dholbach> i tend to agree with fabbione, i believe, the workload that benc and fabbione cope with could hardly be accomplished within motu, wouldn't work an testing with the kernel team make more sense?
<ogra> fabbione, also i'm not against you but try to take position for people that are not here or not MOTU yet but would want such patches... personally i agree, but as a MOTU guy i'm ambivalen
<BenC> things start getting even more ugly if people want to use linux-restricted-modules with these special flavors
<ogra> t
<Lathiat> dholbach: its not so much testing, as specific patches people want that are too intrusive etc to be put in the main kernel
<siretart> fabbione: we had a suggestions earlier on #ubuntu-motu. Would it be possible to provide infrastructure to faciliate users to patch and bake kernels themselves? we could put some *-patches packages in universe and point people to some documentation how to do that themselves
<Lathiat> dholbach: pax, selinux, low latency audio, realtime, etc
<Lathiat> grsecurity
<fabbione> siretart: such instrastructure has always been there
<BenC> siretart: that's a goal of dapper
<siretart> BenC: is there a wiki yet for that?
<fabbione> siretart: if people keep asking for it, it means that they have no clue on how to build a kernel, and that scares me even more 
<fabbione> siretart: + to see them maintaing one
<BenC> siretart: when I say goal, I mean unofficially at this point :)
<Lathiat> it would definately seem it'd be much cleaner to have people roll their own kernels so they can keep them up to date etc themselves as needed
<ogra> fabbione, BenC, also note that sabdfls highest priority for universe is to have everything available without forcing users to add external repos
<ogra> thats why we have to pull in apt-get.org every release...
<\sh> ogra: I didn't see dholbach pull in kernel repos
<fabbione> ogra: there is a reasonable balance of things we want and sanity of universe towards users
<Nafallo> or just bake the modules for the current one... :-)
<ogra> if we deny support for such kernels people will offer them externally
<Lathiat> would it be possible to provide linux-patch-2.6.12-grsec or something, that was a grsec vX patch, but that applied cleanly to our source trees (this being the key difference to the upstream patch).. some people may be able to maintain that much or something
<\sh> the kernel is heart of all distributions
<ajmitch> Nafallo: the patches usually aren't just modules
<Lathiat> naf	its nto always a matter of modules
<fabbione> ogra: people are already confused by having 5 falvours of kernels for i386 on main
<Lathiat> Nafallo: lots of things are for more intrusive than that
<BenC> ogra: think of it this way, if someone wants a grsec kernel, even if they base it on our kernel repo, they still to maintain atleast 3 arch's and ~4 flavors on each one of those (cpu and smp flavors)
<ogra> yup
<Lathiat> however if we have the patch thing, it needs to be maintained and kept up to scratch with the current kernel, and people lose interest, etc, and it would suck having an out of date patch
<fabbione> ogra: that list could explose exponentially for each pet kernel
<ogra> fabbione, it will.. surely
<Nafallo> Lathiat, ajmitch: I know. but generally. some things probably can be modules, like trulux vsecurity :-).
<fabbione> ogra: and do you consider that good?
<fabbione> ogra: or dangerous for the user?
<ogra> fabbione, i'm taking a role here... its not my opinion... 
<ajmitch> Nafallo: which is being shipped separately
<fabbione> ogra: also.. what will happen when a user ask feature foo+bar?
<ogra> i dont consider the whole idea good...
<fabbione> ogra: are you going to create extra combinend kernels?
<fabbione> to what level of aggregation?
<dholbach> especially given the maintenance part of it: debian hast quite a lot of kernel-patch-bla packages which weren't touched for ages
<ogra> fabbione, he has to found a team that cares for foo and bar
<ajmitch> ogra: I can think of at least 3 different kernel patches that the hardened team would want
<Nafallo> ajmitch: where? he has an external repo for them atm, no?
<BenC> yeah, what if someone wants low-latency+grsec
<ajmitch> Nafallo: yes
<ajmitch> Nafallo: you've used them, right?
<ogra> ajmitch, but they would go into one image, wouldnt they ? 
<ajmitch> ogra: no
<fabbione> ogra: up till now the MOTU team has always landed in #ubuntu-kernel to ask kernel related stuff.. 
<Nafallo> ajmitch: nope, I've only built them for amd64 when he called for help with that.
<ajmitch> not necessarily :)
<fabbione> ogra: that means that none of the MOTU is dealing to take care of these pkgs
<ogra> fabbione, yup
<fabbione> ogra: so from a MOTU point of view, you should be the first to say no
<sistpoty> ajmitch: would only the kernel be affected or would userspace packages need to modified as well?
<ogra> it would be a requirement to fully take care of it indeed
<fabbione> specially if people asking for these features can't maintain them themselves
<\sh> ogra: this is impossible...someone who asks for a kernel in universe, has to know what he's doing...and if so, he can provide the patched source to the world...because we (and I personally don't) can't support them...thinking of dapper this is really danguerous if we provide more kernels then the main one...and even this is quite difficult to support over 5 years
<ogra> fabbione, nobody here will take the role of the people who would want these kernels, thats why i do it to try to give a balance in the discussion
<ajmitch> sistpoty: usually just kernel, with some userland support for some of them
<ajmitch> ogra: we could easily end up with > 50 kernel binary packages in dapper
<BenC> I've an idea, how about people who want these kernels start managing them externally to universe to start
<fabbione> ogra: also.. do you all realize that these kernels will be obsoleted the day after the first USN?
<fabbione> BenC: ++
<ogra> it would require a good amount of consideration whichto allow and which not
<Lathiat> it seems to be it would definately be much more sane for people who need these kinds of features to do them themselves.. i mean the patches i've heard of (low latency audio, grsec, vserver) all seem pretty specific and for people who generally know what their doing, not something to be used by idiots
<BenC> if they get maintained well enough, and there aren't a lot of problems, then we an bring this back for consideration
* Nafallo agrees with the kernel gods :-)
<ogra> BenC,++
<siretart> what about packaging kernel-patches?
<BenC> there wont be a kernel-patches for dapper
<fabbione> siretart: that will fail at the first USN
<BenC> kernel source will become native
<siretart> as dholbach pointed out, debian already has some of these
<\sh> ogra: as I explained in -motu: people who wants to have some things in the kernel, which is not there already, will build their own stuff...when they can...if not, they will ask someone...and we shouldn't be the people (as team and bound to ubuntu as name) who are doing this...if I do it in my sparetime and under my own name, and provide a kernel with this and that in it, it's something else
<siretart> so what to do with the already existing ones in universe?
<Loiosh> BenC++
<fabbione> siretart: we do have different security release procedures than debian
<dholbach> siretart: i morgue'd all of them for hoary :)
<siretart> dholbach: ah
<fabbione> siretart: let's make a simple example
<fabbione> siretart: kernel foo in main
<fabbione> kernel-patch feature bar in universe
<fabbione> we release
<ogra> \sh, nope, but if we would allow such kernels we'd need a very clear policy to avoid 50 binarys ... but it seems pretty clear that we all dont want it
<fabbione> all nice and dany
<fabbione> dandy
<ogra> and i think BenC's suggestion is the best so far...
<fabbione> siretart: at the first security release for main
<fabbione> kernel-patch might not even apply anymoer
* Lathiat eyes kernel-patch-{2.4-lids,2.6.10-hppa,atopacct,debian-*,evms,nfs-ngroups,evms,ppsci-2.4,ppscsi-2.6,skas,speakup,....}
<fabbione> siretart: that will be the hell of the user
<fabbione> siretart: security or feature?
<bddebian> eeks
<dholbach> Lathiat: they most have come in in breezy and i didnt have the time to take care of them
<Lathiat> dholbach: righto
<siretart> fabbione: maybe updatable via -updates?
<siretart> fabbione: I perfectly see your point
<TiMiDo> hey everyone
<\sh> ogra: I'm really afraid of thinking that universe-kernel-main_rev-with-patches-for-foo is being regarded as supported kernel...which happens tfom time to time with packages out of universe, because the communication about supported main/restricted and unsupported universe/multiverse is sometimes b0rked
<ogra> siretart, if its a security update, then via -security
<fabbione> siretart: i can ensure you that the maintainer will be too busy taking care of the last shiny code
<fabbione> ogra: nope.. for kernel-patch is -updates
<siretart> fabbione: the thing is: there ARE people outside wanting these 'special feature' kernels. The question here is, what can WE do to support them?
<ogra> \sh, no kernel in universe would ever be supported
<\sh> siretart: testing the features and implementing them in one of the next releases
<Lathiat> we can support them by not letting them random foo into universe
<dholbach> so what is the best solution for this? try to postpone all these requests until we have a proper infrastructure (i refer to BenC's unofficial goal)?
<fabbione> siretart: answer: the dpatch system has been there forever, they can apply their patches with very little knowledge
<bddebian> Don't WE have enough problems supporting "I want the latest foo" ? :-)
<TiMiDo> hey people sorry for my rudness, i will love to join the motu team, =)
<ajmitch> ogra: users still think that they are supported - see 2.6.11 fun
<ogra> dholbach, do we actually *have* theye requests ? 
<ogra> these even
<fabbione> also
<bddebian> TiMiDo: Are you an Ubuntu Member yet?
<\sh> ogra: u see, but the kernel must be very reliable, and therefor I would like to see (as user) a special work on those packages...because kernel has to be healthy 
<BenC> siretart: I think we should support their efforts with docs and wiki entries pointing to their personal work
<fabbione> another important factor to take into account
<dholbach> ogra: i thought you had, because you "fought for the balance" :)
<TiMiDo> bddebiann nope
<ogra> i thought thios discussion is rather hypothetical
<Lathiat> TiMiDo: stop by #ubuntu-motu after the meeting
<TiMiDo> ok =)
* TiMiDo is watching
<BenC> siretart: the people who want these kernels in ubuntu need to take the first step
<siretart> fabbione: this means they have to have some packaging skills for creating a dpatch and building the package. 
<fabbione> what user base do these kernels have?
<siretart> fabbione: but I personally am fine with that
<fabbione> siretart: a dpatch is a normal diff with 3 extra lines
<fabbione> if they claim to be kernel maintainers
<siretart> jupp. I know
<fabbione> they know how to do that
<fabbione> or where to look
<fabbione> there is no need of a special infrastructure
<ogra> dholbach, i gave hypothetical people a hypothetical voice ;) i was there when the audio taem died because they couldnt have their low latency kernel in universe
<dholbach> for baking stuff themselves
<fabbione> i do not believe somebody that claims to be a kernel maintainer cannot look into a package
<TiMiDo> well what kernel are we talking about?
<ogra> TiMiDo, universe kernels
<TiMiDo> oh alright,
<\sh> TiMiDo: wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUMeeting
<Lathiat> TiMiDo: We are talking about allowing kernels into universe, ones with specalized patches, grsec, pax, vserver, low latency audio, etc, see the MOTUMeeting page
<TiMiDo> thnx \sh
<dholbach> ok... how much involvement and serious arguing do we want to allow *-patches?
<dholbach> so we can settle the matter reasonably
<siretart> just theoretically. Some MOTU (or MOTUWannabe) wants to create and support a feature patched kernel like linux vserver or something. What should we tell him? What if he promises to give some support to his kernels?
<fabbione> dholbach: we won't allow -patches for the reason i explained before.. 
<ogra> ok, so the conclusion is we'll not allow kernels in universe for dapper but will review this if someone comes up with a well maintained kernel he offered in a external repo for some time ??
<dholbach> fabbione: alright, or custom kernels in universe
<fabbione> i think BenC idea of watching these kenrels activity in external repository first is a good first step
<sistpoty> hm... what about the idea to form a motu-kernel team... members of this should then be the only team to allow foo-bar kernel stuffs or eternally deny them to come to universe
<\sh> siretart: deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu <distroname> black-hole
<siretart> I'd propose to tell him to put his kernel in some 'private' repo and advertise them there..
<sistpoty> so there would be no more then max 2 different flavors in universe
<Lathiat> sistpoty: i think thats not really needed until we end up with the first idea suggested - someone who has one they maintained for a while
<fabbione> sistpoty: there is no MOTU-kernel.. as i said before..
<siretart> \sh: this requires more fiddling with dak. you don't really want elmo to do that ;)
<Lathiat> dak?
<\sh> siretart: yes I don't want it...but you know what a black-hole is...;)
<siretart> Lathiat: debian archive kit. ftpmaster software for ubuntu/debian
<siretart> \sh: ah, now I see.
<Nafallo> siretart: dak will be launchpad soon ;-)
<ogra> sistpoty, the way to go is to offer tham in a external repo for some time and then come back and ask for new discussion
<\sh> I see it like this: As a "ubuntu official team" we should avoid support work for not main maintained kernel packages...what we're doing as private people..is really something else
<Nafallo> atleast a lot of it from what I've seen :-)
<fabbione> ogra: what about the MOTU review archive?
<sistpoty> ogra: ok... i agree fully for this... maybe when one "is ready" then, we even have some nice tools ;)
<ogra> fabbione, thats not an archive
<dholbach> fabbione, BenC: do you want to have those guys (that might come up) working with the kernel team, review/discussion/involvement-wise?
<fabbione> ogra: can it be turned into one?
<siretart> fabbione: you mean revu? 
<\sh> and if there is a possibilty, because one MOTU or someone else with enough kernel knowledge, is providing a good report for a special kernel feature, main kernel dev can think about including them into main kernel stream
<fabbione> siretart: i think so 
<ogra> fabbione, why ? then motu will be responsible
<siretart> fabbione: revu will be an archive, but even if, that would be a source only archive
<\sh> fabbione: no...
<ogra> fabbione, if someone wants to offer such a kernel he should care for it himself...
<fabbione> dholbach: it depends.. we already have people coming there
<BenC> dholbach: yeah, they'll need to keep in touch so they can follow our development cycle
<TiMiDo> why don't we just build a kernel from scratch?
<ogra> if *we* adopt such a kernel we will care, help and offer the universe archive
<fabbione> dholbach: the main issue is that as soon as we tell them to prepare their own kernels, they all disappear
<dholbach> fabbione: i can, sadly, imagine
<BenC> yeah, but that's the whole point of the excercise to have them maintain the kernels outside of universe first :)
<ogra> yup
<fabbione> dholbach: so i am glad to see working people around
<fabbione> BenC: eeheh
<dholbach> yeah
* TiMiDo wants to work for ubuntu (:
<dholbach> ok, i think the matter is settled then?
<fabbione> dholbach: but just askers.. we had plenty :)
<Lathiat> yep
<ogra> sounds like
<siretart> dholbach: matter resolution: NO :)
<dholbach> fabbione: thanks for telling me... again - i got the pointer ;)
<\sh> I don't want to be responsible for non booting and oopsing kernels
<fabbione> dholbach: eheh :)
<dholbach> somebody added the 2nd item on the agenda:
<dholbach>  Guidelines for using dpatch - many debian maintainers see our use of it as excessive, for the small patches we add.
<fabbione> dholbach: didn't you offer volunteer as kenrel maintainer?
<dholbach> "somebody": please speak up
* ajmitch added that
<ajmitch> I was going to add the infinity quote as well, but thought better of it :)
* ogra would propose more usage of dpatch :)
<dholbach> fabbione: sure linux-image-2.6-crack-*
<TiMiDo> why crack?
<\sh> fabbione / BenC : Thx for coming around :)
<dholbach> ajmitch: put the quote here :)
<BenC> no problem
<ogra> yeah, thanks for taking the time
<fabbione> no problem
<ajmitch> ogra: this is part of being polite & reasonable with debian
* BenC parts the meeting
<dholbach> yeah, thank you very much, BenC, fabbione - it was a pleasure :)
* fabbione takes off
<dholbach> bye
<siretart> bye fabbione . and thanks for coming!
<\sh> fabbione: comfort your wife now :)
<ogra> bye
<dholbach> ok... ajmitch, we're all ears
<BenC> thanks for inviting us for input
<fabbione> \sh: she is sleeping
<\sh> fabbione: u should do the same :) 
<Loiosh> Hahaha
<ajmitch> < infinity> Universe should ideally deviate from Debian as little as possible, or you guys will be up shit creek.
<dholbach> haha
<dholbach> that's excellent
* siretart can really understand why DDs dislike dpatch
<\sh> fabbione: it's cold at my place...I would like to have a wife who is warming my feet ;)
<ajmitch> bye BenC, thanks
<dholbach> that's something, seb128 had some words to say to, too
<Loiosh> You guys.. =)
<ogra> ajmitch, sabdfl sounde quite different todasy
<fabbione> \sh: did you lose cita again?
<ajmitch> ogra: I know, but that's just sabdfl ;)
<siretart> a really promising solution seem to me the wig and pen format, but it is not here yet :(
<\sh> fabbione: cita?
<ogra> \sh, i couls offer some animals
<ogra> *could
<fabbione> \sh: never heard of tarzan?
<ogra> cheetah
<koke> siretart: what's wrong with dpatch?
<ajmitch> I know that we use dpatch a lot, even for a tiny patch
<seb128> dholbach: about dpatch or patching ?
<\sh> oh cheetah ;)
<dholbach> yeah, and the delta
<Loiosh> dpatch
<dholbach> seb128: ajmitch < infinity> Universe should ideally deviate from Debian as little as possible, or you guys will be up shit creek.
* seb128 thinks you patch/create too much diff for small changes
<siretart> koke: it is really awfull to debdiff 2 source packages with dpatch
<ajmitch> which annoys DDs when we go making intrusive changes like that, which we have to carry around for the rest of our lives...
<\sh> fabbione: well...no comment for now ;)
<seb128> <seb128> no, sending fixes at the right place and asking syncs is the way to go
<seb128> <seb128> most of the motu changes give extra work
<ajmitch> the less delta we carry, the better
<ajmitch> seb128: agreed
<ajmitch> we keep on creating more work for ourselves
<siretart> what are "small" changes?
<siretart> up to how many lines a patch is small?
<seb128> changes to .desktop files by example
<dholbach> and we don't forward small patches to the DDs enough
<seb128> to take one
<\sh> seb128: dpatch includes plain diff -ur as well?
<siretart> what about re-libtoolizing package? what about auto-reconfiguring stuff?
<seb128> yep
<ajmitch> at last count (with grep-dctrl), we had > 1200 packages in breezy universe with an *ubuntu* version
<ajmitch> that's 1200 potential merges
<siretart> *sigh*
<seb128> siretart: anything that could be fixed upstream by upstream or Debian should have a patch send here to start
<seb128> make a fix
<seb128> send it to Debian/Upstream
<seb128> wait for them
<ogra> ajmitch, seb128, as sabdfl said, ubuntuX will be dropped as a version number :)
<seb128> ask a sync or get it synced automatically
<Lathiat> ogra: it will?
<\sh> seb128: who can we be sure, that debian/upstream are including our changes?
<ajmitch> ogra: I don't care about that
<siretart> ogra: what?!
<seb128> please don't troll
<seb128> STOP
<ogra> thats his plan
<\sh> s/who/how/
<Lathiat> bah
<seb128> don't start trolling
<ajmitch> ogra: irrelvant to this
<ogra> ok
<bddebian> And packages that have no .desktop.  Or the stuff wrong with X11?
<seb128> the meeting have enough to say without starting on that
<ogra> ajmitch, even if i see it very relevant
<seb128> bddebian: create a .desktop, send it upstream
<ajmitch> ogra: it's versioning, not patching
<seb128> so we get it translated 
<seb128> and no sync to do
<ajmitch> lets just stay on the topic of dpatch usage
<bddebian> seb128: I have been asked if the paths are the same?
<Lathiat> so, when i started out
<\sh> seb128: many of my changes I send to debian or upstream are "dropped because no use" or "not included, because upstream dev doesn't want it"
<Lathiat> people were recommending to integrate dpatch
<Lathiat> for aptches
<ogra> ajmitch, there is no difference we talk about debian<->ubuntu relationship here
<Lathiat> even smallish ones
<ajmitch> Lathiat: yes, and we've learnt since then
<Lathiat> (i thought it was kind of silly) -- are we now sayign thats a bad idea
<Lathiat> right
<\sh> seb128: so the question must be: diff.gz or dpatch/diff -ur
<ajmitch> ogra: and I'm talking about the ever-increasing workload we make for ourselves
<Lathiat> but if they already have a patch system, we should try to use that, right?
<ajmitch> Lathiat: yes, definitely
<seb128> \sh: dpatch needs to change debian/control,debian/rules .. that sucks
<ogra> ajmitch, if my patches dont get accepted upstream or arent even relevant for them, i want to have a easy maintainable dpatch
<Kamion> \sh: you should be consistent with the existing packaging, in general
<dholbach> Lathiat: sure
<Kamion> that's been a rule of general sanity for QA work in Debian for years and years
<ajmitch> seb128 has raised a good point about us failing to push enough upstream to debian
<dholbach> nice to have you here, Kamion :)
<Kamion> "do not mess with the maintainer's build system"
<seb128> right
<ogra> i agree that for a 10 line change n rules or something else done in the debian dir we shouldnt use dpatch
<sistpoty> [22:36:49]  <siretart> what about re-libtoolizing package? what about auto-reconfiguring stuff?
<\sh> seb128: and I like a clean orig.tar.gz where the patch is included during build time...so I know what is being patched without grepping down a big diff.gz e.g.
<ogra> but for changes on the source i'll always use it
<Lathiat> quite, im thinking we should have a "motu send patches to debian" day
<ajmitch> ogra: if you were patching rules from dpatch I'd have to worry ;)
<ogra> ajmitch, you know what i mean...
<\sh> Kamion: if there is a dpatch system in maintainers package, -> dpatch is used
<Lathiat> ogra: what if you have a 1 line source patch, and there is no patch system in the original package
<Kamion> \sh: sure, that's obviously sensible
<seb128> Lathiat: every motu should send his patch before uploading something creating a delta
<ogra> trivial changes in the debian dir... uudecoding a png for a .desktop file etc
<Kamion> what's not sensible is adding dpatch when it wasn't there to start with
<Lathiat> seb128: right
<Lathiat> seb128: what about when the debian guy is unresponsive ish
<Lathiat> e.g. say 4 weeks passed and still no ack
<ogra> seb128, tahts something revu should provide
<seb128> Lathiat: you can upload, I've not said to create 0 delta
<Lathiat> seb128: just to try not to
<siretart> seb128: I created a lot of deltas just by adjusting build dependencies for some strange transitions. There are tons of such 'modifications' :/
<seb128> but to send patches upstream or to Debian
<\sh> Kamion: when there is no patch at all, and I had to patch the orig source, I used most of the time diff -ur...and debian/* stuff i did without diff -ur/dpatch bla...
<seb128> siretart: send upstream what can be send upstream (ie: new desktop files), send patches for crashers/etc to Debian
<seb128> siretart: for the transitions we have to deal with, that's fine
<Kamion> \sh: ok, I don't know what you personally have been doing, it's just something I've been getting complaints about from people I work with on a regular basis in Debian
<\sh> (and we have to be carefull during the next universe/main sync process if some packags are not CXX trans  ready ) ;)
<ajmitch> and we want to avoid complaints as much as possible
<Kamion> and it's making my relationship with them difficult because I'm having to apologise for things like that
<ajmitch> the MOTU team doesn't have a great name in debian, sorry
<\sh> Kamion: I read joeys blog entries ;)
<sistpoty> seb128 / Kamion: what would be the most gentle way to send these? directly to the maintainer or by bugs in BTS?
<Kamion> sistpoty: bug reports are the normal approach ...
<TiMiDo> sistpoty maintainer
<seb128> sistpoty: BTS
<sistpoty> ok, thx
* TiMiDo remembers when i was a Debian developer
<Kamion> ajmitch: it's ok to be less-experienced, as long as people are willing to learn :-)
<ajmitch> they can track patches in the BTS
<Nafallo> there is a good opportunity for us to bring the delta down now that mom starts again I guess, some extra work. but I'm positive we will survive that :-).
<ajmitch> Kamion: yes, I though this point needed to be raised, we don't want to be tainted :)
<Nafallo> we just pick the deb version and send what we did upstream :-P.
* ajmitch waits for a package for breezy-updates to build.. there was already dpatch there, thankfully :)
<dholbach> but i'd still like every motu hopeful to be able to cope with all patch systems
<ogra> dholbach++
<ajmitch> Kamion: btw you or mdz will approve for -updates?
<seb128> easy way is to put the patch to debian/ubuntu-patches and to apply it to the source package
<dholbach> (just raised the point, because i think that will go into review practices as well)
<Kamion> ajmitch: just mdz, at least unless the workload spikes a lot
* ajmitch forgot to add breezy-updates  to the agenda
<ajmitch> Kamion: ok
<seb128> so no need of change the packaging system and the maintainer has the patch if he wants it
<ogra> seb128, with a straight patch -pX command ?
<sistpoty> but I still didn't get the conclusion on when to use patch system... 1) only when there from dd 2) on large patches (define large!) 3) s.th. else?
<ajmitch> seb128: good idea
<seb128> right
<ogra> fine with me
<seb128> so it's applied
<seb128> and you don't have to read the .diff.gz to figure the change
<ogra> as long as we still maintain the patches separately..
<\sh> seb128: u mean instead of debian/patches ? 
<ajmitch> ogra: that would have them separately, just not applied at build time
<ogra> \sh, yes
<Lathiat> ogra: how do you mean?
<ajmitch> \sh: just a way of keeping them apart
<ogra> ajmitch, yup
<Nafallo> I'll guess changes in debian/[rules,control]  should just be documented correctly in debian/changelog, right? :-)
<TiMiDo> Nafallo right
<ajmitch> Nafallo: of course
<dholbach> Nafallo: ++
<ogra> Nafallo, additionally
<sivang> what part of the MOTU agenda is being discussed ?
<seb128> \sh: I mean something not used by the packaging
<Nafallo> good, no ubuntu-patch for that one :-P
<dholbach> we should be more disciplined about that
<ajmitch> sivang: dpatch
<ogra> sivang, second
<\sh> well...I don't see the real difference...it's a nono to mix up dpatch and plain diff -ur patches 
<dholbach> \sh: if you have dpatch, use dpatch
<sivang> ajmitch: thanks ;)
<Lathiat> \sh: if dpatch is alrady there, use it!
<ogra> \sh, if dpatch is there, use it...
<dholbach> :)
<Lathiat> ok so if dpatch isnt there, and you need to patch the source
<seb128> \sh: the package don't use a packaging system, don't change it to use one. Just copy your patch to debian/ubuntu-patches and apply it 
<sivang> Lathiat++
<ogra> \sh, if its cdbs, use cdbs
<\sh> thats what I said...is anybody doing it differently?
<Lathiat> you should create a patch file and apply it with diff in rules?
<ogra> else apply a normal patch
<dholbach> \sh: some guys introduced dpatch
<Nafallo> if you have _any_ patchsystem in place, use it :-)
<dholbach> \sh: me amongst them (in some cases), so it's nice to see this discussion
<sivang> seb128: if you copy it there, does it get applied automatically ?
<Lathiat> yeh i had been too
<ogra> me too in some cases where i certainly know the version wont survive this release
<\sh> dholbach: phew...so I'm on the right site ;) I used only diff -ur for orig.tar.gz patches ;)
<Lathiat> so what, you add a patch < before build and diff -R in clean?
<ajmitch> \sh: great
<seb128> no, it doesn't get applied
* Lathiat is still confused on that part
<ajmitch> Lathiat: no, not at build time
<ajmitch> debian/ubuntu-patches will be informative only
<ogra> its an add on
<Lathiat> ajmitch: apply the patch, but include the diff in debian/ubuntu-patches/ for reference?
<sivang> so how do we apply patches if we don't have any patches application system in place? manually?
<ajmitch> Lathiat: yes
<Lathiat> ok!
<ajmitch> sivang: yes
<Lathiat> that makes sense!
<\sh> so have it in diff.gz 
<Lathiat> i think i should go write a wiki page
<Lathiat> detailing this
<ajmitch> Lathiat: please do ;)
<Nafallo> seb128: (since we lack pitti) we should follow that ubuntu-patch ida with security to in your opinion? :-)
<sistpoty> Lathiat++
<\sh> and debian/ubuntu-patches only for informational purposes
<ogra> sivang, make your changes but keep a patch that reflects them
<dholbach> Lathiat: PackagingTips? MOTUWannabeSomething?
<Lathiat> MOTUApplyingPatches or something
<sivang> ogra: cool, understood
<dholbach> Lathiat: link it from everywhere :)
<sivang> ogra: I wonder if this practice should be also followed in main ?
<Lathiat> whwat about when we need to do things like update configure etc?
<ogra> sivang, and use the existing patchsys if already available...
<ajmitch> Lathiat: it's the same thing
<seb128> Nafallo: no opinion on that
<Nafallo> seb128: oki, I'll try to remember to ask pitti later :-)
<Lathiat> doing ubuntu-patches would make for messy debdiffs ;)
<ajmitch> security changes need to be as small as possible, generally
<ajmitch> Lathiat: yes, but we can filter that part out
<ajmitch> man filterdiff ;)
<Lathiat> heh
<Lathiat> ok
<sivang> Lathiat: right
<dholbach> ok, do we have agreed? :)
<ajmitch> dholbach: YES!
<dholbach> ROCK
<\sh> if someone summarize it
<ajmitch> now onto my next 2 points...
<seb128> I've to go, later guys
<ogra> cool
<dholbach> next item on the agenda
<Nafallo> ajmitch: should still show what we did, no? :-)
<ajmitch> ok, thanks seb128 
<\sh> seb128: thx
* sistpoty gains 100 XP
<dholbach> see you seb
<dholbach> #
<dholbach> Upstream Version Freeze & other milestones (AndrewMitchell)
<dholbach>     *
<dholbach>       We have a huge list of packages to merge, these should be finished right around UVF if not earlier. (AndrewMitchell)
<ogra> bye seb128 thanks for coming
* ajmitch has an agenda >:)
<ogra> that means we'll not see new stuff probably
<Loiosh> LoL sist =)
* sivang thinks ajmitch rocks
<ajmitch> ogra: depends on how much time we can spend reviewing
<dholbach> i second ajmitch's point
<ogra> ajmitch, exactly...
<ajmitch> and if UVF for universe lags main UVF
<dholbach> ogra: focus != only goal
<ogra> but we had 200 merge packages in hoary
<sivang> ajmitch: does anyone know about the UVF prosept date?
<ajmitch> ogra: up to 1200 for breezy
<Lathiat> sivang: thats still being thrown around like mad by the looks of it
<\sh> ogra: we will have more for dapper
<ogra> dholbach, UVF *will apply* for universe this time
<ajmitch> well breezy->dapper
<dholbach> sivang: no, will be discussed at UBZ, i guess
<dholbach> ogra: i know
<Nafallo> where a lot is trasitions, no? :-)
<\sh> Nafallo: yes
<siretart> just a small (but I think important question). How will be syncs handled for dapper?
<ajmitch> we have far less transitions, far more merging
<sivang> well, given the amount of work, maybe it would be beneficial to start bugging about it?
<dholbach> we should perfectly agree on making number one prio
<siretart> will this go via elmo or launchpad?
<ajmitch> sivang: ?
<ogra> so time is very short to merge say 300 pkgs *and* get new stuff reviewed
<\sh> siretart: MoM will handle this bug list
<dholbach> siretart: there's a lot of confusion on the very topic
<ajmitch> ogra: I think that most merges can be done in a few weeks
<Lathiat> we should draw up a merging guide, we need to do things like, try reduce deltas etc, and filign bugs, etc
<ajmitch> but we only have a few weeks
<ajmitch> Lathiat: ++
<sivang> ajmitch: I mean, to start maybe tryin to get someone to think about it :) if we have so much work
<dholbach> \sh: mom is broken afaik
<Nafallo> wow. universe are going to look clean after we've done this the right way (sending things upstream...) :-)
<ogra> ajmitch, we only have a few weeks :)
<ajmitch> sivang: why do you think I raised it here?
<ajmitch> 09:56 < ajmitch> but we only have a few weeks
* Lathiat volunteers again to draft up an initial version of MOTUHowToMerge
<dholbach> Nafallo: :))))
<sivang> ajmitch:  :)
<ajmitch> *cough* ;)
<\sh> dholbach: well...I don't have a mom actually...so I'll do it the normal hand-ish way
* ajmitch has gotten used to doing manual 3-way merging :)
<dholbach> me too
* sivang would like to know 1) What does the merge invovles. 2) How many NEW pakcages we need to do
<bddebian> MOM is a little questionable at times
<bddebian> :-)
<Lathiat> mom is always questionable!
<sivang> \sh: is MOM freely avbailable ?
<ogra> \sh, hand-*ish* ?
<sivang> err,
<dholbach> sivang: 2) we can't say that
<Lathiat> sivang: a merge is taking the difference between debian and ubuntu packages
<\sh> ogra: manually
<Lathiat> sivang: and fixing it up
<Nafallo> ajmitch: spec up a guide for us on the wiki? :-)
<ajmitch> sivang: you have 3 versions.. the original version, ubuntu changes, and debian changes
<Lathiat> sivang: where they conflict
<dholbach> sivang: 1) getting new debian version in, applying our changes
<ajmitch> Nafallo: sure...
<ogra> \sh, like done at ish ? 
<\sh> sivang: I searched for it..and I only found a commercial package
<sivang> \sh: hehe
<\sh> ogra: *lol*
<ajmitch> I could write a MoM clone if you really needed it :P
<ogra> sivang, there is no use for MOM if the debian archives are broken
<ajmitch> and put it on REVU
<ajmitch> s/REVU/tiber/
<dholbach> ok, do we all agree that merges are really important and we will all focus on that?
<sivang> bddebian: maybe you can bug elmo for us to provide a local version of a MOM ? :-D
<ajmitch> dholbach: YES!
<Nafallo> yea, cause Keybuk would NEVER share the existing code? ;-)
<\sh> dholbach: we have to...it's first task we should focus on
<sivang> dholbach: yeah
<ogra> dholbach++
<ajmitch> Nafallo: I guess the code is fairly simple
<sistpoty> dholbach++
<sivang> dholbach: how are you producing lists of packages that needs merges?
<dholbach> if i might add a suggestion: before uploading a package it might be prudent to examine the bugs for the package
<ivoks> uh
<dholbach> sivang: will be on bugzilla
<ivoks> i'm late
<Nafallo> ajmitch: still no need to discover the wheel again? :-)
<ajmitch> the problem is usually getting the debian package that we forked from
* sivang feels that he should be getting a debian box for this works
<dholbach> so if we can make a tiny change to fix a bug, do that with the merge
<ogra> dholbach, bah, who cares for bugs... 
<ajmitch> since snapshot.debian.net lost a lot of data
<dholbach> ogra: leave the channel, please ;)
<ogra> :)
<sivang> hehe
<ajmitch> sivang: sid chroot
<dholbach> AND:
<sivang> ajmitch: cool
<ogra> and ?
<dholbach> we might have   apt-get source -t   by then
<ajmitch> AND?
<dholbach> ROCK
<ajmitch> -t ?
<sivang> ?
<ogra> elaborate ? 
<dholbach> like in apt-get
<dholbach> so you can have ubuntu and debian sources
<ogra> ah
<ajmitch> oh right
<sivang> target release?
<dholbach> and fetch the debian source just with apt-get
<Nafallo> apt-get like in apt-get :-)
<dholbach> sivang: mvo has it on his harddisk
<sivang> dholbach: please xplain :)
* Nafallo understands less now ;-)
<ajmitch> we *still* have the problem of getting the original debian source
<dholbach> ok
<ivoks> -t targets release
<\sh> mm...
<ajmitch> 3-way merges need a base :)
<dholbach> yes, so you do      apt-get source pornview -t sid
<ogra> eek, that means i need to have debian soures in my sources.list ?
<sivang> ivoks: yes, that what I saw with man apt-get /-t
<ivoks> you can have couple of releases
<ivoks> and pick whichever source you want
<dholbach> ogra: no you don't, but i think it's a worthwhile feature
<Nafallo> I usually do apt-cache madison && apt-get package=version anyway :-P
<ajmitch> dholbach: I just switch into my sid chroot with its bind-mounted dirs ;)
<dholbach> especially if you do apt-pinning
<\sh> I think the problem is more, when I'm thinking on our transitions, that the packages we touched are not done by DDs by now
<ogra> i dont
<dholbach> do whatever you like
<ivoks> or apt-get source sid/pornview
<dholbach> i FANCY it
<ajmitch> \sh: most are
<ogra> i stay away from pinning as far as i can
<ivoks> iirc
<sivang> dholbach: how does it know where to fetch the package from if you don't provide it with the sources?
<dholbach> sivang: you have to
* ajmitch thinks we're straying off-topic
<dholbach> yes
<dholbach> i just liked the idea
<dholbach> however
<dholbach> we agreed already ;)
<ogra> OK, BACK ON TOPIC
<dholbach> the last item on the agenda is:
<sivang> dholbach: care to give me a session about that one afterwards? :)
<ivoks> i tought meeting is at 22:00UTC :(
<dholbach>  Clean up and reorganization of MOTU wiki pages. (JordanMantha) 
<dholbach> JordanMantha, are you there?
* LaserJock is Jordan Mantha
<Loiosh> Ping
<ajmitch> dholbach: we need more agenda items, this meeting was meant to be about direction & discussion before UBZ
<siretart> err, sorry
<sivang> I'm getting a cup of tea, be right back
<siretart> what was the resolution to point3?
<ajmitch> to get input from the MOTU community who won't be at UBZ
<ajmitch> siretart: get working ;)
<dholbach> siretart: we agreed to heavily focus on merging first (as soon as we have a merging list)
<ogra> siretart, NO 1 prio is merges before UVF
<ivoks> ajmitch: i'm off
<bddebian> ajmitch: Why, you'll ignore it anyway.. ;-P
<Lathiat> btw, quick question, are .desktop files fair game to go upstream to debian?
<ajmitch> dholbach: I have a preliminary list
<siretart> okay. thanks
<ajmitch> bddebian: stop trolling
<bddebian> Lathiat: They SHOULD be :-)
<dholbach> ajmitch: do you want us to decide on them?
<Lathiat> e.g. do debian care 
<LaserJock> I just was noticing that the MOUTU was sort of newbie unfriendly and since we got done with Breezy I was wondering what might be done with cleaning/improving the wiki
<sivang> dholbach: can I help out in writing a script to produce the merges list? (I take it you're doing it in python)
<dholbach> ajmitch: wouldn't it be better to collect the ideas on a wiki page?
<Lathiat> (im writing up merge howto)
<ajmitch> siretart: I've got one already
<sivang> dholbach: maybe even a spec?
<dholbach> sivang: it should be already done, the stuff was on bugzilla (just search for merging)
<ajmitch> s/siretart/sivang/
<ogra> *********** leave the stage to LaserJock please *************
* koke is quite busy and would love a ping if we talk about UBZ :)
<ogra> its his topic
<ajmitch> dholbach: I just wanted ideas raised
<sivang> dholbach: ok
<dholbach> LaserJock: please :)
<TiMiDo> ok i want to do something
<LaserJock> well, I am just a MOTU wannabe but I would like to help with wiki cleanup if I can
<LaserJock> I just wanted input as to what would be good for you guys
<ogra> LaserJock, what are your suggestions
<dholbach> thank you very much for that at first :)
<LaserJock> I guess Lathiat is taking care of some stuff
<ogra> what should get changed... whats missing, what needs improvement ?
<LaserJock> Well, we have 3 wiki pages for recruits
<ogra> yes
<ogra> sadly
<bddebian> Aye
<LaserJock> it should be only 1
<\sh> 3?
<ogra> wher does the third come from ? 
<LaserJock> maybe just 2 sorry
<dholbach> what i wanted to take care of, for ages, is: having a "round trip" through all the pages, explaining what they are for, LaserJock, would that make sense?
<ogra> i only know dholbachs and mine
* \sh just knows pbuilderhowto and developerresources
<LaserJock> the Todo page has lots of notes for MOTU but it is a little hard for newbies to figure out 
<sivang> LaserJock: do you find the current instructions for packaging a source from scratch okay?
<\sh> but that's me ...forget about me
<ogra> the recruitment pages can get merged or rewritten
<LaserJock> well I think the packaging stuff could be improved
<\sh> sivang: IT'S NOT OKAY ;)
<dholbach> sivang: i think there is none
<\sh> dholbach: there r two
<\sh> dholbach: one was mine, the other one is kubuntu doc for cdbs stuff :(
<Lathiat> lol
<ogra> what about Unfrgivens developer docs ? 
<\sh> dholbach: mine is incomplete
<LaserJock> we should make sure that everything follows MOTU policy and is current (replace Hoary with Dapper or something more general)
<Lathiat> \sh: well, kubuntu doc has some kde/kubuntu specific stuff
<ogra> can we put them up somewhere ?
<Lathiat> \sh: e.g. what to add to cdbs for kde
<ajmitch> ogra: yes, they are getting put up
<ogra> great
<\sh> Lathiat: which is wrong in my eyes
<sivang> maybe we can get some of the more experienced folks in here to contribute on \sh's docs?
<Lathiat> \sh: well, its needed
<Lathiat> \sh: even if its a subset of a main page
<sivang> make them more complete
<sivang> ?
<ogra> ajmitch, do they get in -updates ? 
<\sh> sivang: no..it's too difficult...I need to rewrite it 
<ogra> we have fine "intro developer docs" 
<\sh> Lathiat: yeah..for people who knows how debhelper works
<dholbach> how about this: we go and categorize MOTUCategory pages and merge stuff that can be merged and write a general page, which should be part of /MOTU, that describes what is in each category?
<ogra> they have been packaged but were to late for breezy
<ajmitch> ogra: no way
<ajmitch> ogra: they didn't pass NEW for breezy
<LaserJock> What I would like to see is a self consistent, easily navigatible, and non-redundant set of wiki pages that has info for not only MOTUs but also MOTU wannabes
<ajmitch> too late
<ogra> i'd suggest we'd look over them and enhance if needed before we start new stuff
<ogra> ajmitch, -updates ? 
<dholbach> isnt that, what i said?
<ogra> ajmitch, i'll go begging at mdz
<ajmitch> wiki pages cover *way* more than packaging
<ajmitch> ogra: good luck, I think he'll say no
<dholbach> fyi: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CategoryMOTU
<ajmitch> the wiki has to cover all the bits about getting involved, what we do, what there is TODO
<ogra> ajmitch, i'm used to... you didnt see my bleeding knees yet that edubuntu brought me :)
<LaserJock> one other thing that is confusing (at least for me) is that the MOTUTodo doesn't seem prioritized 
<ajmitch> IntroDeveloperDocs is targetted specifically at new packagers creating a package
<dholbach> LaserJock: ++
<ajmitch> MOTUTodo needs wiped & redone
<ogra> yes
<dholbach> ok, how do we proceed, who wants to give LaserJock a hand?
<siretart> there are many transition pages
<ogra> we still have no RT 
<siretart> I'd propose to drop them
<ajmitch> ogra: do we need RT? it can be setup easily on tiber
<bddebian> RT?
<ogra> couldnt MOTUTodo be replaces with a RT instance on the revu server ?
<dholbach> launchpad! :)
<siretart> request tracker?
<bddebian> Ah
<ajmitch> siretart: yes
<ogra> yes
<\sh> bddebian: RequestTracker a perl tool and a nice one
<sistpoty> siretart++ go for ghc6-transition first :)
<siretart> Reinhard Tartler? ;)
<dholbach> rt sucks :)
<ogra> dholbach, ??
<siretart> for what would we need rt?
<ajmitch> any one of the tiber admins can set it up if we agree
<ogra> siretart, UniverseCandidates
<\sh> ajmitch: u r one ;)
<ogra> siretart, a morgue list
<dholbach> an rt request for each package that needs love?
<dholbach> just think about UniverseFTBFS
<dholbach> but anyway
<ogra> all the stuff we need lists for...
<dholbach> this gets a bit offtopic
<ogra> why ? 
<dholbach> we're here to organize our documents
<siretart> wouldn't it make less work to create a python script installed on tiber than install rt?
<dholbach> that's more important than the workflow, at least for newcomers
<siretart> dholbach: this IS about organizing documents
<ogra> dholbach, or drop them in favor of something better ;)
<ajmitch> siretart: such as?
<dholbach> documentation
<dholbach> sorry
<ajmitch> siretart: what python script would you want?
<siretart> dholbach: we are talking about potential replacing wiki pages by other means
<ajmitch> this is about replacing sections of the wiki with other, better tools
<siretart> ajmitch: morgue list
<ogra> dholbach, MOTUTodo is a internal workflow page.. but wannabes will find it and get confused
<siretart> ajmitch: and UniverseCandidate have been mentioned
<sistpoty> unmetdeps
<ogra> yes
<siretart> ajmitch: SyncCandidates would be another candidate
<dholbach> ftbfs
<ogra> ++
<Nafallo> tiber == internal workflow wiki? :-)
<ogra> Nafallo, nope
<ogra> no wiki there
<ajmitch> I was working on an unmet deps resolver to keep the list fresh
<ogra> *tools*
<dholbach> so we'll have an RT request for every package to fix?
<siretart> ajmitch: that would really be great. it is quite high on my list..
<Nafallo> ogra: not now... but it would be a possibility if MOTUTodo is such a confusing page, no? :-)
<ajmitch> so that it could scan the universe/main package list & generate a list of packages that wouldn't install
<ogra> dholbach, that would obsolete maolne :)
<ajmitch> code is about 75% written :)
<siretart> ajmitch: my hero! :)
<sistpoty> ajmitch++
<LaserJock> what about UniversePackageWithoutDesktopFile?
<ogra> Nafallo,  dont think its a good ide to replace a wiki with a wiki
* ajmitch has had a few script ideas ;)
<dholbach> so could we agree on testing RT for our purposes?
<ogra> yup
<Nafallo> ogra: in most cases no, but it could be in this one. anyway, I'm fine with MOTUTodo whereever it is :-)
<siretart> *sigh*
<dholbach> is it hard to set up?
<ogra> and wipe all workflow stuff from the wiki eventually
* siretart doesn't like the idea of rt that much
<dholbach> i don't have used it much
<\sh> dholbach: it's a bit of "frickeling"
<dholbach> so i'd like to see in action what we're talking about
<\sh> with perl and some alias lists
<ogra> Nafallo, lists on wikis are unusable if they reach a certain size
<Lathiat> wouldnt like
<Lathiat> bugs in launchpad
<siretart> ogra: how can rt assist with that?
<Lathiat> assigned to some meta-user for this kind of things
<Lathiat> be better?
<ogra> dholbach, you havent used it much ? 
<dholbach> Lathiat: we'd need mass-filing stuff
<dholbach> ogra: no
<Lathiat> launchpad has an email interface
<Lathiat>  = easy mass filing
<ajmitch> dholbach: malone email UI
<ogra> dholbach, all internal canonical requests go over rt ...
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> ogra: i know
<Nafallo> ah well, nm :-)
<dholbach> ogra: how often did you use it?
<LaserJock> ok, so what do you guys want me to do?
<ajmitch> we can mass-file, do nearly everything to bugs that you can through the web UI
<ogra> 2 times :)
<Lathiat> actually it would be better filed against a meta-package
<dholbach> ogra: you see...
<Lathiat> and then you can assign something to yourself
<Lathiat> if you are working on it
<dholbach> OKOKOK, what are our proposals?
<\sh> I used it as support ticketing system for 3 ISPs
<dholbach> we cannot agree on something that's not there
<Lathiat> where meta-package could just be some 'product' or whatever concept launchpad has
<dholbach> there's no transition, if we don't have something yet
<\sh> Lathiat: team not product
<ogra> first lets give LaserJock something in his hands
<dholbach> i'd very much like to get back to documentation
<ajmitch> ok, back to WIKI cleanup please :)
<Lathiat> \sh: but can you file a bug *on* a team
<ajmitch> Lathiat: shh :)
<Lathiat> \sh: assigning is no good, then you cant assign it to yourself to work on
<\sh> Lathiat: later
<dholbach> because that's more important, even if not as appaling as tools to some of you :)
<ajmitch> we agree that the wiki needs love
<ajmitch> new contributors find the wiki confusing
<ajmitch> LaserJock's point was that the wiki is useful for 'insiders' who already know their way around
<ogra> i'd say lets first have a list which is workflow and which is doc... then clean up the doc pages
<ajmitch> because that's who has written the wiki pages
<dholbach> who would give LaserJock a hand at looking at CategoryMOTU and merge, where we can?
<Nafallo> ogra++
<sistpoty> anyone disagrees with removal of ghc6transition page? (it's done :)
<Lathiat> workflow pages can probably be largely purged
<dholbach> sistpoty: trash it
<ajmitch> sistpoty: all part of the cleanup
<ogra> sistpoty, why is it still there ? 
<sistpoty> ogra: been lazy with the wiki *g*
<ogra> ;)
<Nafallo> historic reasons? ;-)
<ajmitch> all of us have been lazy with the wiki
<ajmitch> except maybe dholbach ;)
<sistpoty> hehe
<bddebian> Speak for yourself :-)
<Nafallo> so that we can look back in teen years and laugh? :-)
<ajmitch> oh, and bddebian 
<dholbach> LaserJock: how would you proceed?
<ajmitch> our MOTU God
<bddebian> pfft
* ogra hands LaserJock the mic
<LaserJock> I think that we should have a wiki that has lists of wiki pages MOTU/Wannabes want to see
<LaserJock> and ones we need to get rid of
<dholbach> yeah
<ogra> great
<LaserJock> Then I can work on them
<LaserJock> I am willing to do work, I'm just want to make sure I don't mess up something important
<dholbach> LaserJock: you can always ask in the channel
<ogra> LaserJock, its a wiki
<dholbach> and i'm quite happy you take that role
<Lathiat> if you break it, you can unbreak it, i think
<Lathiat> dholbach++
<ogra> it has version control as long as hno73 doent mess it up ;)
<Loiosh> Heheh, yes
<siretart> perhaps we can regroup all workflow pages under MOTU/Workflow/<TOPIC>?
<ajmitch> we can't leave it up to LaserJock alone
<Loiosh> You can undo changes.
<dholbach> siretart: excellent idea
<Lathiat> laserjock and whip other people
* Lathiat will do some work
<dholbach> i wanted to do that too
<Loiosh> wiki calls it a 'revert'
<dholbach> a directory structure
<dholbach> i gues that'd help
<siretart> same for MOTU/Transition/<TOPIC>
<dholbach> MOTU/Doc
<dholbach> MOTU/Wannabe
<ogra> yeah
<dholbach> MOTU/Process
<\sh> well...it would be nice to see some real documentation work for motu pages...finally I'll ping some of the german wiki guys and ask for help
<Nafallo> MOTU/Teams :-)
<ogra> heh
<dholbach> yeah
<ajmitch> especially as MOTU is seen as the entry point for ubuntu development
<dholbach> woohoo
<dholbach> ajmitch: ++
<ajmitch> so we need to make it as appealing as possible :)
<dholbach> it's a shame in which state some pages are
* sistpoty hides
<ajmitch> :)
<Nafallo> lot's of them talk about hoary and warty still ;-)
<ajmitch> yep
<Lathiat> unfortunately the whole wiki is generally a mess
<dholbach> ok... LaserJock is that cool for you?
<Lathiat> but if we want to get anywhere we will need to focus on MOTU stuff of course :)
<ajmitch> and breezy is old news now ;)
* ogra is happy he only has to care for wiki.edubuntu.org currently :) it small
<LaserJock> dholbach: sounds good to me
<dholbach> LaserJock: excellent
<dholbach> ajmitch: do you still want to collect items for ubz?
<dholbach> ajmitch: or can we agree to announce the wiki page here?
<LaserJock> I think I will make an organizational wikipage and link to it on the MOTU page so you guys can add/remove stuff you want, OK?
<ogra> dholbach, announce the wiki page ? 
<dholbach> LaserJock: excellent, and thanks again
<ajmitch> dholbach: as UBZ is Real Soon Now, I'd like to hear a few minutes of ideas
<ajmitch> and put them on the wiki page
<dholbach> ogra: for IdeasForMOTUUBZ
<dholbach> ok
<Lathiat> for those that cant attend :(
<dholbach> ajmitch: go ahead
<ajmitch> since some discussion will help to get it going
<Lathiat> it woudl be nice to get a drawup of new interaction in dapper
<Lathiat> like with launchpad etc
<ogra> dholbach, we have https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBelowZero/BOFs, why not add it there ? 
<dholbach> ogra: it's ajmitch's agenda item
<siretart> that page is quite busy/crouded
<ivoks> koke: ping UBZ :)
<\sh> first idea: Every MOTU gets a lifetime support of Aspirin
<ajmitch> Lathiat: MOTULaunchpadPackages? ;)
<koke> ivoks: thx
<Lathiat> ajmitch: heh
<Lathiat> ok
<ajmitch> s/Packages/Processes/
<ajmitch> \sh: ++++
<ajmitch> ;)
<ogra> ajmitch, why not use https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBelowZero/BOFs ?
<ajmitch> ogra: sure
<\sh> ajmitch: *g*
<ajmitch> as we know, dapper is going to be supported for 3/5 years
<ajmitch> what can we really focus on to make it rock?
* Nafallo has still not figured out what will be left the last 2 years ;-)
<Lathiat> i think first and foremost should be cleaning things up
<Lathiat> gettin gmerges out of the way
<ajmitch> first up is how to get new people involved..
<Lathiat> trying to fix as many leftover unmet deps as possible
<ajmitch> and doing the merge & bug work
<Lathiat> getting rid of as many merges as possible / simplifying them
<Lathiat> and try do them ASAP, instead of last-week rush 
<koke> I'd like to work with someone else in the Ruby team
* ajmitch waits for some radical suggestions from the floor
<Nafallo> Lathiat++
<Lathiat> koke: we have a ruby team
<ivoks> stop including new packages
<ajmitch> Lathiat: that was on the agenda ;)
<Lathiat> koke: we havent really done much yet
<ivoks> and only fix remaning
<ogra> Lathiat, we wont have a choice in dapper, th relese schedule will fully apply to universe
<koke> I know, but I'm not sure if someone from the team will be at UBZ
<Nafallo> \sh: will we have time with everything? :-P
<Lathiat> ogra: "last week before UVF rush"
<Lathiat> ogra: etc
<ogra> so merges have to be done at a certain date
<ajmitch> ivoks: that's an option
<ajmitch> Lathiat: so start on merges asap
<\sh> Nafallo: I don't think that our spec will be a dapper "goal"...so it's deferred by default ;)
<ivoks> ajmitch: with new i'm thinking on REVU :) not new versions
<Lathiat> ajmitch: when merges happen! ;)
<Nafallo> \sh: baah :-P
<ogra> but that will scare people away... new people want to include new stuff... dholbach and i had this discussion plenty of times
<bddebian> Yeah but some merges come back to "just syncing Debian" ;-P
* bddebian hides
<ajmitch> ivoks: I think that we need to get new packages to attract new developers
<ajmitch> at least up until UVF
<\sh> as I said, at sometime we have to split the strength of the team...
<ajmitch> after that we have to say no
<ivoks> ajmitch: but definitive no
<ajmitch> or no, with exceptions ;)
<ivoks> ajmitch: no "just this one"
<ajmitch> unlike the non-UVF that we had with breezy
<ogra> yup
<ivoks> yeah...
<ajmitch> I think it can still be worth getting packages in after UVF, if they're well done
<ivoks> uploads in last hour
<ogra> ajmitch, depends...
<ajmitch> ogra: sure
<ivoks> one more thing
<dholbach> if i see it correctly, the release process for dapper for main isnt even clear yet
<ivoks> when dapper+1 opens
<ogra> ajmitch, if we need mdz/Kamion approval at least *i* wont bother them with it
<ajmitch> ogra: I'm just arguing that a blanket NO can be detrimental :)
<ivoks> we have to do more backports than now...
<\sh> ivoks: backports are a special topic
<ogra> ivoks, thats Mez's job
<ogra> we dont have to care..
<ivoks> :)
<\sh> ivoks: we need all motus to help us for merges and other things...where merges*1000 prio
<ivoks> ok
<ajmitch> ogra: yes, I don't think mdz & kamion will take on the universe burden as well
<ogra> but we should get jdong into motu finally
<ogra> ajmitch, exactly
<ajmitch> ogra: perhaps you'll end up being the MOTU in charge of approvals ;)
<ajmitch> or dholbach 
<Loiosh> Hahaha
<bddebian> heh
<\sh> ivoks: because for breezy we were only a few 
<ogra> ajmitch, surely not... else edubuntu will suffer
* Loiosh offers ogra aspirin.
<ogra> Loiosh, i cant 
<ajmitch> ogra: ok, some other community member like \sh 
<ogra> yup, good suggestion :)
<Loiosh> Heh
<\sh> what?
<Lathiat> if (member != ogra) echo good suggestion
<\sh> ajmitch: what u want from me?
<ivoks> \sh: you'll do all the work :)
* LaserJock thinks ajmitch might just volunteer himself
* Loiosh offers \sh aspirin.
<Nafallo> probably ogra AND dholbach :-)
<dholbach> erm....
* ogra orders a truck with aspirine for \sh's address
<dholbach> can't we make a list of topics, briefly? :)
<ajmitch> LaserJock: no, I'm not going to volunteer myself, I'd have to be nominated by others :)
<ajmitch> dholbach: please :)
<ogra> dholbach, UVF exception approvals...
<ajmitch> this is going OT again ;)
<ogra> yes
* \sh needs a house in durban, sea side, near coconut grove and a big fat pipe for uploading..that's all...possible?
<dholbach> ogra: i'm not taking notes :)
* bddebian nominates ajmitch
<Lathiat> we were ever on topic? ;)
<ogra> dholbach, me neither
<dholbach> i will have a presentation to prepare
<ivoks> i thik exception should be stuff like ipod support etc
<dholbach> so i'd like to wrap up, if we can't agree on how to handle pre-ubz-business
<Nafallo> what IS the topic? :-)
<ivoks> since apple has tenedency to change stuff periodicly
<ajmitch> Nafallo: UBZ suggestions
<ajmitch> I was asking for people to (briefly) suggest topics for UBZ, that we'll put on the wiki
<ajmitch> the briefly part got lost somewhere under my desk
<Nafallo> and how many do we have? :-)
<ivoks> :)
<ajmitch> Nafallo: about 1/2
<Nafallo> hmm, that must be \sh's aspirin then...
<dholbach> ok. shall we agree on a wiki page for "brief ideas" and agree on a time and date for next meeting?
<Loiosh> Nominate a member to be considered for post-UVF approval?
<Nafallo> well, I already now what I'm going to do in dapper so... ;-)
<ajmitch> dholbach: yes
<ogra> Loiosh, that should be absolute exceptions...
<ajmitch> next meeting will be during or after UBZ
<dholbach> ok, suggestions?
<Lathiat> oh
<sivang> dholbach: what is the presentation about?
<Lathiat> quick Q
<Loiosh> s/approval/absolute exceptions/g
<Lathiat> can we irc mirror the ubz meeting? :)
<dholbach> sivang: berlinux, ubuntu community
<Nafallo> dholbach: make clones of mdz and Kamion.
<ogra> Lathiat, that was the plan iirc
<Lathiat> or does anyone have a spare few grand lying around to send me? ;p
<ajmitch> Lathiat: if needed, but we'll have quite a few BOFs
<\sh> Lathiat: if there is a motu bof or meeting we will pushit via irc, i think
<Nafallo> dholbach: atleast there role for main should be someone in Universe :-)
<ajmitch> sorry, I blew my last bit of cash to send myself ;)
<ivoks> ogra: that would be nice, since some of us can't attend ubz
<\sh> Nafallo: choose one of 4 ... dholbach , ogra, ajmitch , \sh
<ogra> ivoks, yes
<sivang> dholbach: ah, intersting, UBZ spec?
<Nafallo> \sh: yes, those sounds fine :-)
* sivang googles for berlinux
<\sh> Nafallo: exclude me ;)
<Nafallo> \sh: noway dude! ;-)
<\sh> Nafallo: I'm not compatible with TB ;)
<ivoks> ogra: just conclusions would be enough
<ajmitch> \sh: and of those, ogra & dholbach & \sh & ajmitch are very busy ;)
<ogra> \sh, hewy, you only have KDE to care for, we others have important tasks :)
<Nafallo> ajmitch: but mdz and Kamion isn't? ;-)
<dholbach> ok, what about the name for the wiki page for the suggestions?
<\sh> ogra: *lol*
<dholbach> and what about the time and date for next meeting?
<ogra> dholbach, at UBZ ?
* sivang voulenteers for approving exceptions :-D
<ogra> i think we said that lats time
<\sh> ogra: I think I had more != KDE uploads to main then expected 
<ivoks> ogra: yes!
<ivoks> at ubz!
<siretart> how about some means of enforcing approval?
<dholbach> ok, time and date?
<ajmitch> ogra: yes, at beer o'clock in 2 weeks? :)
<ajmitch> siretart: a big stick?
<ogra> dholbach, probably dynamically or do *you* know the schedule yet ? 
<ivoks> not in the end of ubz
<dholbach> no, that's why i ask
<Nafallo> dholbach: so... the MOTU core team as exception approvers for Universe please :-)
<dholbach> you seemed to know :)
<ajmitch> siretart: enforcing approval is hard, we can't upload to a frozen queue that someone can moderate
<ogra> we should announce a date if we are there and know the schedule
<ajmitch> siretart: not unless we do some fast talking with mdz & kamion
<dholbach> ok
<ajmitch> ogra: good idea
<ivoks> dholbach ogra somewhere in the middle, so rest of us can make some suggestions
<siretart> ajmitch: perhaps this is something for your ubz list, then
<Nafallo> ajmitch: do that talking with them on UBZ then?
<ogra> so between oct 26th and nov 7th
<ajmitch> siretart: ok
* ajmitch writes beer with ogra, dholbach & others on his list
<\sh> Novembre 1st?
<ivoks> :<
<sivang> ogra: not on 7th, I'm leaving on the 6th :-/
<\sh> ogra: 6th
<siretart> but the suggestions with the big stick seems fine to me
<ajmitch> ogra: oct 26th? that's far too early
<\sh> ogra: siretart and I are leaving on the 6th
<ogra> \sh, do *you* know what we'll have ion schedule on Nov 1st ?
<ajmitch> \sh: msot people check out about the 6th
<dholbach> let's announce it on the mailing list
<dholbach> or on the irc topic
* ajmitch doesn't arrive till the 29th
<sivang> ogra: my birthday ? :-)
<\sh> ogra: well...the night dude ;)
<sistpoty> dholbach++
<dholbach> we're not getting somewhere now :)
<Loiosh> 1st is my birthday
<ajmitch> dholbach: good idea
<ivoks> dholbach: :)
<\sh> dholbach: of course...to bed ;)
<dholbach> and i'm pretty tired and have to get on with work :)
<ajmitch> dholbach: I *really* have to get off to work & my real-life job
<sistpoty> dholbach: /me prefers mailing list ;)
<dholbach> ajmitch: me too
<ajmitch> it's nearly 11AM here, I'm about 2 hours late
<ogra> ok, we'll put it in the topic of -motu 
<dholbach> sistpoty: we can do both
<ogra> once we know the schadule
<ivoks> dbboth
<ivoks> dholbach: both
<dholbach> ok
<sistpoty> yeehaa... i almost never look at the topic :(
<ivoks> wrap it up
<dholbach> ok, thanks everybody for coming
<dholbach> have a nice day
<ivoks> night
<Lathiat> thank you all for coming DONT FORGET UBUNTU BUG DAY
<ogra> sistpoty, you'll do then
<ivoks> too
<ajmitch> ok :)
<ivoks> :)
<ajmitch> Lathiat: what day? ;)
<sistpoty> ogra: I'm not on UBZ ;)
<sivang> Lathiat: when?
<Nafallo> Lathiat: Ubuntu WHAT? ;-)
<dholbach> now/tomorrow
<Lathiat> sivang: #ubuntu-bugs, now!
<ogra> sistpoty, thats why you'll look at the topic then :)
<dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay
<sistpoty> ogra: or do you mean looking at the topic *g*
<ivoks> bye
<sistpoty> hehe
<dholbach> bye
<ajmitch> ok, who wants to write up the meeting summary this week?
<Lathiat> anyone who doesn't give at least 20 bugs attention gets stared at evilly
<ogra> does someone feel eager to write up the minutes ?
<ajmitch> ogra: I can if you want
<ogra> would be nice...
* ajmitch will get the evil stare, only touched 1 bug today
<bddebian> I can't unfortunately, I've been too distracted with RL work. :-(
<ogra> but take as much time as you need :)
<dholbach> Lathiat: read the wiki page :)
<ajmitch> ogra: will look at it in weekend then
<dholbach> Lathiat: you're taking the wrong approach
<ogra> ajmitch, take your time
<dholbach> ok guys... see you
<Lathiat> dholbach: heh
<ajmitch> bye dholbach 
<siretart> grrr. disconnect without noticing :/
<sistpoty> gn8 dholbach
<ajmitch> ogra: long weekend for me :)
<ogra> ok, meeting closed :)
<ajmitch> yay
<ogra> thanks all for attending
<\sh> well...
<Lathiat> LOL
<Lathiat> hug day!
<siretart> hrhr
<Lathiat> i like the evil stares option personally
* \sh will have the next days a lot of RL work to do :(
<siretart> bye folks
* ajmitch will bbl
<\sh> 26th is my last day of RL stress work :(
<sivang> \sh: I had time like this 2 weeks ago, was icky :-/
<sistpoty> bye siretart
<sivang> night sistpoty 
<sivang> night siretart 
<bddebian> Gnight folks
<\sh> sivang: well...we're preparing for a new channel line up for two german counties
<Loiosh> Wow
<\sh> sivang: digital television :( 
<\sh> sivang: and our german pay tv company named premiere wants to change to hdtv as well during these days...
<\sh> it's a mess
<sivang> bah, too much transitions eg?
<\sh> sivang: yeah...cxx trans + ftbfs in 3 days
<\sh> and a bunch of meetings with all those people who don't have a clue..but wants to have a say
<Loiosh> Heh
<\sh> shit...this channel is logged...but I never mentioned ISH ,->
<bddebian> :-)
<\sh> ogra: help...I'm playing with my career 
<ogra> \sh, good :)
<\sh> hmm..
<sivang> \sh: lol
<\sh> ogra: u didn't push klaus onto my back, to give me good piece of advises to leave the company? ,-)
<\sh> pieces of advise even
<sivang> \sh: this is SO much known , for me as well :-/
<ogra> \sh, not yet... thats still to come... my last resort if you want :)
<\sh> ogra: he starts already since I know that he is leaving...
<\sh> anyways...
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-10-25
* \sh -> bed
<\sh> sivang: yes...(query=
<Loiosh> Good night, sh
<ogra> night \sh_away
<sivang> night \sh_away :)
<sivang> night all
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-10-26
<judax> <- Troy Williams
<mdke> hello
<judax> hiya
<Kamping_Kaiser> hi :)
<hno73> <- Henrik Nilsen Omma
<mdke> Matthew East
<Kamping_Kaiser> Karl Goetz
<Kamping_Kaiser> (not on wiki)
<rob^> Robert Stoffers
<mdke> i will just be in and out, as per my email today
<rob^> hmm, looks like I'll have to forward a lot of the agenda to the mailing list
<mdke> is jbailey coming?
<rob^> not sure
<mdke> yeah i was just hilighting him
<mdke> :)
<rob^> heh
<jbailey> Nick highlights in irssi suck.
<jbailey> fabbione: Thanks.
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol
<mdke> :)
<mdke> hey jeff
<jbailey> For some reason they only seem to highlight at the beginning of a sentence.
* jbailey needs to switch back to x-chat soon.
<mdke> jbailey, mine go a different colour if it is in the middle
<Mithrandir> jbailey: it does that by default.  Nice feature.
<rob^> mmm xchat
<mdke> jbailey,  [15:06:53]  hilightwin      /home/matt/.irssi/scripts/autorun/hilightwin.pl
<jbailey> Mithrandir: Suck feature.  I miss pings all the time.
<mdke> oh no, that's something else
<mdke> jbailey, i guess you can set it to hilight in the middle
<Mithrandir> jbailey: define your own highlight thingy, then
<jbailey> Mithrandir: What I really want is my graphical x-chat do be able to work in a screen session.
<jbailey> Mithrandir: But I think I've mentioned this wish to you and you suggested NX
<mdke> me too
<mdke> anyhow are we go?
<Mithrandir> jbailey: yes, true.  Be aware of the crack levels therein.
<rob^> yes, I gotta go to work soon
<mdke> merging back to trunk: kubuntu has been done already, who is going to do ubuntu stuff?
* jbailey grabs the agenda.
<rob^> what does it intail? just copy/paste?
<mdke> i don't know
<mdke> there is some clever svn merge thing
<jbailey> What it needs is the layout of the repo thought about first.
* mdke nods
<jbailey> I wound up in the end just hacking things so that they'd work.
<jbailey> So it's not just a clean merge back.
<mdke> ok
<jbailey> Can you move this to after the repo layout item?
<jbailey> s/you/we/
<mdke> good idea
<rob^> can we do that?
<mdke> sure, why not?
<jbailey> Up to whoever is running the meeting, really. =)
<rob^> ie can we merge back to a new layout automagically?
<jbailey> Oh. =)
<mdke> oh
<judax> why not merge back, then chop up?
<jbailey> No, it'll be a series of copies, but that won't be hard I don't think.
<rob^> oh ok, I thought so
<jbailey> The other thought is that if all the work went onto the trunk and the branch, we don't really need to merge anything back.
<hno73> why not just import to baz while we are moving stuff around anyway
<mdke> jbailey, what about judax's idea there
<mdke> hno73, we'd have to take the decision to use baz
<hno73> that's meant to have better merging right?
<jbailey> Right, but what I'm wondering is if all the data is already on the trunk, what's to merge back except my changes for the packaging which have to be rethought anyway.
<hno73> mdke: it seems to be on the agenda
<mdke> jbailey, changes made since the branch
<mdke> hno73, yeah :)
<jbailey> mdke: I thought everyone had been trunking those as well?
<mdke> jbailey, nope
<jbailey> Ah, okay.
<jbailey> Umm.  I guess I'm the most familiar with the stuff, so I should do it.
<mdke> i like judax's idea
<mdke> merge back and then rearrange directory structure accordingly
<rob^> i like jbailey's idea
<jbailey> Right, but merging back means what?
<judax> I think that would make life easier
<jbailey> Rearranging the repo should happen on the trunk, yes.
<jbailey> The branch needs to be pretty much considered locked at the point.
<mdke> ok, so it's the same idea
<rob^> yep
<jbailey> Changing it would make doing occasional snapshots quite hard.
* jbailey ^5's judax 
* rob^ brb
<mdke> ok so what does the merge entail
* rob^ back
<mdke> copying anything in the branch that has changed since it was branched right?
<jbailey> mdke: Right, except in cases where people have contributed stuff on the trunk.
* mdke nods
<mdke> when are we gonna do it?
<jbailey> Can do this afternoon or maybe Monday.
<jbailey> I'll try this afternoon so it doesn't block people.
<judax> you can examine the changes in the working copy (trunk) and the branch
<judax> by doing a --dry-run
<rob^> nice one
<jbailey> Yeah.
<jbailey> diff is my friend, too. =)
<jbailey> I don't think svn has much of a concept of merging changesets from branches to the trunk (like bzr would)
<mdke> ok cool
<mdke> shall we move on
<rob^> ok
<rob^> gonna be hard seeing as hes not here..
<mdke> UBZ is a bit of a red herring afaics because only corey will be there, there might not be much docs discussion
<jbailey> I will be as well, but I'm not sure how my time will be spread out.
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> perhaps the best thing is to play it by ear and comment on any relevant BOFs on the mailing list?
<judax> there is a nice chapter in the svnbook (svnbook.red-bean.com) about Branching and Merging, just FYI
<jbailey> judax: Thanks, I'll reread it.
<rob^> mdke, sounds like a good idea
<rob^> the only thing I'm concerned about is some of the stuff mentioned in the BOFs
<jbailey> judax: I have the page bookmarked for how to do .cvsignore equivalents. =)
<jbailey> rob^: Like what?
<mdke> rob^, don't forget bof's are just ideas
<judax> jbailey: ah :)
<rob^> things like in line help are a little pie-in-the-sky
<rob^> ms has been doing it for years anyway with their question mark thing, and no body cares about that either
<rob^> in the end I expect pretty much the status quo to happen anyway
<jbailey> rob^: It would be interesting to get a commitment from mdz and sabdfl that all specs must have a documentation component to them in order to be complete.
<jbailey> I don't know if it's doable or not.
<rob^> jbailey, thats a lot of work
<jbailey> rob^: It's far more work for the docteam to do it after the fact.
<Kamion> some specs are just "fix <deep thing>"
<jbailey> Kamion: Sure, but should that fix not be documented so that it's understood after?
<Kamion> I think we'd want a little more selectivity than a blanket requirement
<jbailey> Kamion: Mmm.  When I think of the specs that I went to at UDU, most of them could've used at least some basic documentation.  It would be nicer if it were an "apply for exception".
<Kamion> depends on how much the person who scheduled the BOF knew about the code - I've had specs that were utterly obvious
<rob^> I'm thinking that such a change would mean we would be forking everything from upstream, ie adding lots of code to each program
<Kamion> as long as there's an exception process, no problem
<rob^> ubuntu already gets accused of being a Debian fork, this would only serve to make it worse I think
<Kamping_Kaiser> jbailey: what do you mean by 'doc component' in a spec?
<jbailey> rob^: I see less of those accusations now that the random nay-sayers are getting ignored =)
<rob^> heh
<rob^> I'm not saying it is, but why give them more ammunition?
<mdke> i think you two are talking at cross purposes, jbailey's proposal was not to add code to every program
<mdke> as i understand it
<mdke> he is just saying, specs should be documented
<rob^> how else would you implement in line help?
<jbailey> Kamping_Kaiser: What I'd like to see is that we build up a documentation set for Ubuntu.  But the problem is that the docteam is just a small group of people not involved in the development.  I would like to see the coders responsible for creating the needed documentation as part of completeing the spec (So before payment of the bounty, or whatnot)
<mdke> rob^, he is not talking about in line help at all afaics
<jbailey> Sorry, I was still mention things for UBZ
<rob^> mdke, thats what I was on about
<Kamping_Kaiser> jbailey: so the programers write all/some help, and what does the docteam do? make it usefull? other?
<mdke> rob^, true but that doesn't stop the subject from being changed
<rob^> mdke, heh yeah
<jeffsch> the docteam can edit it and de-geekify it so users can understand it
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol. i see. well put jeffsch :)
<mdke> the problem is really that the docteam only has a handful of contributors
<apokryphos> if you don't mind me saying, the job of the coder is to code; we don't wanna waste their time with documentation (hence a docteam), but of course it's good to have coordination between these
<mdke> at least at the moment
<mdke> apokryphos, that is quite a controversial statement
<apokryphos> I stand by it
<mdke> lots of people accept that part of writing programs is documenting them
<jbailey> I don't think I know any programmer who has the task of just coding.  There's always meetings, documentation, end-user troubleshooting, etc.
* mdke nods
<apokryphos> small things like those; but, for example, it shouldn't be a coders job (per se) to write a handbook for a given app
<Kamping_Kaiser> not a handbook, a basic help to help the doc team, surely?
<apokryphos> in my ideal, you have a given docteam, who tries/uses the given application, and coordinates with the programmer on questions; the doccer takes note of these, then documents them
<judax> not full-on documentation, but at least 'spec-form' documentation
<apokryphos> the way I've always done things in the past, is just arrange to have a chat with the person in question online; have a quick talk asking questions etc, then go away and write it up
<apokryphos> (quite like a reporter, in some ways)
<rob^> whos going to have the time to round all these up and de-geekify them anyway?
<jbailey> rob^: Well, it's best-effort. =)
<rob^> heh
<jbailey> I tend to think that if we ship geeky documentation, that it will still be an improvement on shipping just three documents like we did now.
<rob^> I wonder if we can wiki-ify them to allow anyone to help us
<jbailey> My thought is that the people implementing the specs should have some interest in seeing the documentation written.
<apokryphos> basic user documentation is probably paramount, but more geeky documentation is necessary for giving other users the better user-experience
<apokryphos> jbailey: definitely
<Kamion> apokryphos: handbook-style documentation definitely isn't appropriate for every development task. In many cases (non-end-user-facing ones), comments or a simple document for developers is sufficient and the developer should write those
<apokryphos> definitely; things like "What's This" help are of course the job of the coder
<rob^> apokryphos, thats what I was touching on before
<rob^> shall we move on?
<Kamping_Kaiser> going back to jbaileys comment on 'geeky doc is better then nothing', im not sure thats always right. rob^ and the ohter auther of the faq have a great intro text, but i cant see a user wanting to go deeper into geeky help untill they feel comfortable. that faq and similar help is requiered
<jjesse> too late?
<mdke> no, hi
<Kamping_Kaiser> hi  :)
<jjesse> sorry had to solve an emergency at work
<mdke> shall we progress to the next agenda item?
<mdke> or do people have more points about docs at UBZ
<Kamion> Kamping_Kaiser: that's "not optimal" certainly but doesn't refute "better than nothing", I think
<rob^> it would be nice to get something for each program, but unless someone wants to stand up and do all the work it will probably just mostly go to waste
<Kamping_Kaiser> Kamion: sure. and i dont mind about next item fwiw
<rob^> any more for any more?
<mdke> ok translations - does anyone want more information than I've set out in my email to the list today?
<rob^> no, it all sounds good mdke 
<rob^> any idea of time frame?
<judax> that covers it, imho
<Kamping_Kaiser> i didnt realy follow, but i havent seen it in action :|
<rob^> Kamping_Kaiser, http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.doc/3521
<mdke> i had originally said about a month
<rob^> ok
<mdke> because that is about time of language-packs
<rob^> oh ok cool
<mdke> but i don't think that is a major thing
<jbailey> Yay, langpacks.
<Kamping_Kaiser> ta rob^
<rob^> np
<mdke> jbailey, got any issues about translation updates?
<jbailey> mdke: Nope.  Just need to figure out the langpack thing with Martin.
<jsgotangco> bloody hell
* jsgotangco is in a cafe in a hotel
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol
<jsgotangco> mirc has the lousiest interface ever
* jsgotangco lurks
<rob^> heh
<mdke> jbailey, well that is for dapper. We're on breezy
<jbailey> mdke: Right, sorry.
<jbailey> None for breezy. =)
<mdke> cool
<rob^> next
<rob^> sorry, I have to get up in ~4 hours for work
<jbailey> Big picture stuff for dapper - for me is just langpacks and nightly snapshots.
<jsgotangco> snapshots +1
<jjesse> snapshots of ?
<jbailey> jjesse: The trunk of the repository
<jbailey> Uploaded weekly to dapper for wider review.
<jjesse> jbailey: which will then include the kubuntu-docs?
<rob^> snapshots is good
<jbailey> jjesse: I'm not clear on what we should do for that.  I'm a bit concerned that the docteam is reponsible for Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Edubuntu and Xubuntu (per the agenda)
<jsgotangco> well we can ask Ridell for that....
<jbailey> jjesse: I'm not really clear how much there is in common between them and if they should really be done out of the same repository.
<jbailey> In terms of producing snapshots, though, no skin off my teeth. =)
<jjesse> did i miss the discussion of the infrastructure?
<judax> jjesse: no
<jbailey> It'll be largely automated.
<jjesse> i can talk to Riddell about the daily snapshots of kubuntu dapper including the docs
<jbailey> jjesse: Cool.  I just don't want to see all of those treated as second-class citizens.
<jbailey> jjesse: But I'm not sure the best way to do that.
<jjesse> jbailey: don't worry i'll keep bugging Riddell for any help i need we have worked together for the breezy docs
<mdke> jbailey, why are you concerned about the docteam doing ubuntu, kubuntu etc? there is only one docteam, not more than one.
<jbailey> mdke: I'm wondering how the docteam decides whether it cares about a derivative or not.
<mdke> jbailey, it's a question of having willing contributors
* Riddell turns up
<rob^> I hope this bloody thunderstorm goes away or I'm gonna have to go
<jbailey> mdke: Like, someone decides to do Xubuntu.  Does it suddenly become the docteams responsibility?
<judax> it seems that way
<mdke> jbailey, i think that would be a question for the team, but certainly it has decided to include kubuntu
<mdke> and jerome has done work on edubuntu
<apokryphos> jbailey: it cares about them if they're official projects, I'd imagine (i.e. being in MAIN etc)
<rob^> if its *ubuntu and someone wants to write docs sure
<jjesse> what you would get is teams that only have 1 member
<jsgotangco> i don't want to do work on some other svn for sure
<jjesse> agreed jsgotangco 
<jbailey> Right.
<jsgotangco> i'd say we remove the upstream stuff though...
<jsgotangco> the current trunk is like 250MB
<jbailey> I just don't want suddenly it to become "do your own derivative, have the docteam take care of it"
<judax> that is where you have a problem though, you need to do what is right for the distro
<mdke> jbailey, yeah, the team can decide what to work on
<jbailey> Half of the model of Ubuntu is to make it easy to do derivatives.  So making it easy to derive the docs should be part of that.
<rob^> maybe, but that doesn't mean we have to accept them
<jbailey> I wonder if having it all in one source package works towards that.  I don't have the thoughts all clear in my head.
<mdke> obviously we need to build contributors for ubuntu and kubuntu, but if people want to work on other ubuntu-related, that is cool
<jsgotangco> i'd like to focus on Partner Projects
<mdke> jbailey, we can have separate source packages, and one repository with a number of separate directories, as suggested by rob^ 
<jsgotangco> so that's 3 projects
<jjesse> shouldn't we have a "head" of ubuntu-docs a 
<Kamping_Kaiser> if somone has comit on svn, can they commit to an project corrently? or can it be restricted?
<rob^> jbailey, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamRepositoryLayout
<jsgotangco> Kamping_Kaiser: its an open svn :)
<rob^> Kamping_Kaiser, no all
<jjesse> "head" of kubuntu-docs and "head" of edubuntu-docs, etc
<jbailey> rob^: Cool.  I save comments until the right part of the agenda.
<Kamping_Kaiser> ok :| thats not helpfull ;O
<jbailey> (Lagging a bit, conference call)
<mdke> it is true that we need to encourage contribution to partner projects before we can have the manpower to contribute on things like xubuntu
<jsgotangco> yes
* jsgotangco will focus on kubuntu and edubuntu
<mdke> anyhow, what other big pictures for dapper?
<jjesse> i will focus on kubuntu
<mdke> we need to think about what docs to write
<jsgotangco> let's make the specs again from DocteamProjects
<jjesse> for dapper i have started wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuDocs
<rob^> mdke, as a side thing I would like to get some of the upstream xubuntu docs and have them available maybe with modification in xubuntu
<jsgotangco> upstream xubuntu?
<rob^> I mean xfce
<rob^> they have an svn repo
<jsgotangco> please make efforts as much as possible to look at upstream work just in case :)
<jsgotangco> or fix our upstream as well :) (scrollkeeper borkage)
<rob^> thats what I have been/am going to do
<jsgotangco> for gnome, there's current upstream 2.12 on the works, but not optimistic about it :)
<rob^> xfce have a nice user guide
<mdke> are we going to try and complete the ubuntu userguide?
<mdke> it has a distinct aim from the faqguide, but overlaps in many respects
<rob^> yes, I did a lot of work during breezy to not overlap as much as possible
<mdke> i would favour trying to get it back up and running
<jjesse> mdke: for kubuntu docs that i have started to focus on for dapper please see http://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuDocs
<mdke> jjesse, ok, you need to mark things in DocteamProjects if you can
<jsgotangco> jjesse: we have to update the KQuickGuide though...
<jsgotangco> even halfway...
<jsgotangco> at least there won't be that much changes for Dapper unless we actually see KDE 3.5 :)
<jjesse> jsgotangco: yes we do, update it all the way, quickguide release notes, userguide are the ones
<rob^> jjesse, do we still want to use kudos for a kubuntu faq guide?
<jjesse> rob^: yes i have seen some requests in #kubuntu for faq guide
<jsgotangco> yes
<jjesse> rob^: maybe we can work together on that one
<judax> kudos would be a good start
<rob^> jjesse, I'd like to have it done for dapper
<rob^> jjesse, sure
<jjesse> rob^: ok
* jsgotangco is still getting used to KDE...but doing good atm
<rob^> jjesse, does kudos have an xml version by any chance?
<jsgotangco> none
<jsgotangco> we can grep it though
<jjesse> sorry kudus is?
<judax> it is like ubuntuguide.org
<jjesse> ah
<rob^> jjesse, the kubuntu unofficial faq guide
<jsgotangco> that's the kubuntu faqguide...
<rob^> yeah
<rob^> I'd like to use that to save work
<jjesse> do i need to get permission to create a docbook file of that from someone?
<rob^> we need to check the licences
<jsgotangco> if its licensed accordingly, you can use it
<rob^> I think sean said we have premission to use it under our current licences though
<jsgotangco> but dig the list archive for details
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> i asked the author about it
<judax> didn't sean talk to the author?
<jsgotangco> me and sean
<rob^> apparently
<jsgotangco> we have permission
<judax> jsgotangco: ok
<rob^> ok
<jsgotangco> we'll just see if its updated
<jsgotangco> its in berlios
<rob^> an xml?
<jjesse> i heard on #kubuntu that it's not updated
<jsgotangco> (actually its a good ton of work)
<jsgotangco> rob^: we wish
<jjesse> but haven't checked myself
<rob^> jsgotangco, yes we do :)
<jsgotangco> its quite good....very visual for an faqguide
<rob^> do we have premission to use the site as is?
<rob^> ie can I copy it from there tomorrow?
<jsgotangco> well that's another story
<judax> does not look updated to me atm
<jsgotangco> we asked the author to work in svn before, but he declined
<rob^> I'd like to start some work on that in about 6 hours if I could
<jsgotangco> rob^: no rush, focus on your xubuntu :)
<rob^> heh
<jsgotangco> we can take kde from here :)
<jjesse> jsgotangco: do you want to create the file or should i?
<rob^> ok
<rob^> I'll just follow your lead
<jsgotangco> i'll fix the kquickguide first
<rob^> ok can we move on?
<jsgotangco> i'll grep the kudos site later when i get home
<mdke> help.ubuntu.com and doc.ubuntu.com on the new server are now available for all to see
<rob^> holy heck its pouring outside
<mdke> comments to the mailing list i would say, otherwise we'll be here for hours
<jsgotangco> mdke: both are in server pronto already?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> refresh your caches
<jsgotangco> good good
* mdke points at hno73 's funky artwork
<rob^> no css on doc.u.c?
<hno73> :)
<mdke> rob^, eh?
<apokryphos> re: kudos. They guy seems generally pretty understanding, but has very big plans
<Kamping_Kaiser> rob^: got none here
<rob^> hmm no there we go mdke 
<apokryphos> (said he wanted to make most of the steps into shell scripts, so users could just run them)
<rob^> apokryphos, ouch
<judax> yikes
<Kamping_Kaiser> hm.
<apokryphos> in some ways suffers some of the same blunders as ubuntuguide guy, but kudos-guy said he did plan to add more explanations (which would be cool). The whole idea, he says, is a proof of concept (Linux being user-friendly etc)
<rob^> each to their own I guess
<mdke> k, back to help.ubuntu.com, some things to discuss as per my email
<apokryphos> there's some really useful stuff (I incorporated some stuff into kde docs), like the given Linux application with win/mac equivalent -- very handy for newbies
<mdke> 1. whether to include translations
<judax> yes, that matrix is nice
<mdke> 2. whether and how to include the bar and side panel to all docs
<mdke> 3. please fix the kde docs so I can add them
<rob^> 1 - yes I think we should
<rob^> 2 - Yes, I think we should
<mdke> i think we shouldn't, because I think that locoteams will want to host their own
<mdke> -fr and -it are already in that process
<mdke> and they will no doubt change things like appearance to make the guides in tune with their websites
<rob^> :)
<mdke> also, it will get messy if we host 30 translations
<rob^> can we alter the html on help.u.c at all?
<rob^> mdke, maybe we can have an additional translations page
<mdke> rob^, comments about the page itself are probably best postponed to the list imo
<rob^> yep
<mdke> but sure, we can change anything
<mdke> it's our server
<rob^> hmm nice
<mdke> i had thought, a link to a list of the various locoteam webpages
* rob^ thinks about using his l33t html/php coding skillz
<rob^> oh crap
<rob^> I gotta go, the thunderstorm outside is getting pretty bad
<Kamping_Kaiser> later rob^ :) 
<mdke> bye
<rob^> cyas
<Kamping_Kaiser> later
<whiprush> did I miss the meeting?
<mdke> so does anyone else have any thoughts about translations? perhaps we can ask the locoteams themselves? they would be well placed to offer advice
<jsgotangco> whiprush: not much :)
<whiprush> whew
<Kamping_Kaiser> mdke: ask locos on the list? i dont hav any ideas about it
<jsgotangco> mdke: add them to d.u.c.? nice idea although we'll have to get their work or they upload it themselves (bit of work)
<jeffsch> mdke: link to all translations; some will be hosted locally, others on translation team sites
<mdke> jeffsch, that will take quite a bit of maintaining
<mdke> jsgotangco, no, not their work, translations of the docteam stuff
<Kamping_Kaiser> this would be hard, but on a help page offer links to the same page translated by the doco teams?
<hno73> mdke: not if it's a wiki page :)
<jsgotangco> it'd be nice if we can just link 'em but if we got a nice server why not...
<Riddell> mdke: what's the status of translations at the moment?
<hno73> then teams can update the links themselves
<jsgotangco> aye, like the one in edubuntu....
<mdke> Riddell, for ubuntu-docs the status is at http://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-docs
<mdke> hno73, nice idea
<mdke> Riddell, kubuntu stuff isn't translated
<mdke> hno73, have you got moin up on there already?
<hno73> mdke: no, but I expect it to be up later today
<mdke> cool
<hno73> I have a side menu thing working in moin now
<jsgotangco> wow
<hno73> so we can have the same side menu as the rest of the site
<mdke> excellent
<jsgotangco> hno73: is the frontpage of the edubuntu.org site in moin too? it has a side menu thing
<jjesse> i have to split have another work meeting :(
<jsgotangco> later jjesse
<Kamping_Kaiser> :( later jjesse
<mdke> bye
<judax> bye jjesse 
<hno73> jsgotangco: no, that's plain html
<judax> mdke: concerning #3, I just built kak (About Kubuntu), what problem are you experiencing
<hno73> but it would be nice to make it moin based
* jeffsch goes off to work :(
<Kamping_Kaiser> later mate
<jbailey> I think we've lost a pile of people.  Should we punt the other items to next time?
<mdke> judax, i'm experiencing this: http://help.ubuntu.com/kde/about-kubuntu/C/
<mdke> jbailey, yes we can, or pursue them on the mailing list
<Riddell> mdke: that's using the KDE non-web stylesheet
<judax> mdke: the style
<mdke> yes
<mdke> if that can be sorted out, I'll put em up and link em
<Riddell> you want to use the KDE web stylesheet, which is in a top secret place.  or just a normal stylesheet
* jsgotangco will have to learn more KDE steylesheets
<judax> what stylesheet do you want
<mdke> Riddell, either way, if you fix it, I'll build it and put it up on that site
<Riddell> mdke: what do I need to fix?  what's the command used to generate that?
<judax> make kak
<Riddell> We probably need a make kak-web
<mdke> ok
<mdke> also for whatever other documents to be hosted online
<jsgotangco> ahhh Riddell you seem to have svn access now?
<Kamping_Kaiser> are we still meeting?
<jsgotangco> well i can't stay long, i'm still outside, its almost midnight here, need to catch a cab
* jsgotangco will just check the log later
<Kamping_Kaiser> doestn seem like ther will be mucht o check
<mdke> ok we're done i think
<Kamping_Kaiser> ok. fair enough
<mdke> we need to chase up this directory structure, use of gnome-doc-utils build stuff at a later date
<judax> ok
<jsgotangco> ah so we're stalemate on the structure?
<jsgotangco> is it merged already?
<mdke> we didn't get that far
<judax> merge first
<jsgotangco> ok sounds good
<mdke> shall I prepare an announcement for help.ubuntu.com?
<mdke> hno73?
<hno73> mdke: sure, thanks
<mdke> great
<judax> take care all
<Kamping_Kaiser> :) 
<jsgotangco> ok gotta go too
<mdke> hno73, will you link it in www.u.c/support?
<Kamping_Kaiser> sounds like it done then :)
<jsgotangco> ok guys later
<Kamping_Kaiser> later mate
<hno73> mdke: yepp. Shall we launch now or on monday?
<mdke> up to you
<hno73> the wiki stuff isn't ready
<mdke> true
<mdke> that will take a while
<hno73> but that can come later I guess
<mdke> and things can be added gradually
<hno73> cool, ok
<mdke> Riddell, ping me if you manage to sort that kak-web thing out :)
<Riddell> ok
<cyphase> hey everyone
<Kamping_Kaiser> hi
<whiprush> mdke: if you need something announced on the fridge let me know.
<whiprush> I'd like to showcase more docteam stuff on it.
<mdke> cool
<mdke> if I ever get onto planet I'll do it there too
<mdke> whiprush, i'll copy you the announcement? are you jorge@u.c?
<whiprush> I'm always on irc so ping me when you want something done.
<whiprush> I don't have a u.c address yet.
<whiprush> fridge-devel@ works though
<mdke> ok
<whiprush> jdub can run stuff also, but he's on tour. :p
<mdke> yup
<Treenaks> http://foodfight.org/movies/2005-10%20Ubuntu%20Fanpeople/
<mvo> Treenaks: nice!
<Treenaks> mvo: thanks :)
<Treenaks> mvo: I'll take my cam to UBZ, so you can try it too :)
<ajmitch> heh
<mvo> haha, jeff is the best!
* ajmitch is trying to load it..
<ajmitch> haha
<Treenaks> mvo: try Jono Bacon too
<Riddell> I've never seen any of the films Jono has taken
<Riddell> wrong channel for this but
<mvo> Treenaks: hahaha
* mvo shouldn't see this stuff while drinking tea
<ajmitch> :)
* Treenaks tries to imagine one of sabdfl :)
<mvo> that's going to be fun
<senecastudent> Hello everyone
<senecastudent> anyone in here?
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-10-27
<cyphase> hey everyone
<whitesoft> Hello!
<whitesoft> ubuntu is in da house! :D
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-10-28
<bluefoxicy> Is anyone awake?
<rob^> yep
<bluefoxicy> rephrase:  Is anyone working on . . . where the hell is the key. . . https://wiki.ubuntu.com/%c2%b5buntu awake?
<ajmitch> #ubuntu-meeting is not the best place to ask
<bluefoxicy> ajmitch:  yes but i'm banned from #-devel
<ajmitch> unless you've got a meeting schedules about it
<ajmitch> heh
<bluefoxicy> for annoying the ass out of daniels
<rob^> I'd remove it by yaknow'
<rob^> s/by/but
<bluefoxicy> mail sent
<N6REJ> I need admin help please... I've been banned and I don't know why
<N6REJ> is anyone going to help me?
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-10-29
<bluefoxicy> anyone here working on the micro-ubuntu project?
<keyes> hello
<keyes> I want to add another discussion for the Community Council:
<keyes> can we discuss about the PLF repository ( http://wiki.ubuntu-fr.org/doc/plf - http://plf.zarb.org/ )
<Treenaks> just add it to the wiki ?
<keyes> ok
<ogra> what do you want to discuss about it ? 
<keyes> We want to present our project (who is totaly unofficial), get your opinion, speak with the Universe and if available Backports team, and if possible find some interessted peope 
<ogra> ah...
<zakame> hello all :D
<zakame> hi ealden 
<ealden> zakame: hi
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-10-30
<zakame> !ping
<Seveas> !meeting del MOTU
<Ubugtu> (meeting <command> [<args> ...] ) -- Command dispatcher for the Meeting plugin. Use 'list Meeting' to see the commands provided by this plugin. Use 'config list plugins.Meeting' to see the configuration values for this plugin. In most cases this dispatcher command is unnecessary; in cases where more than one plugin defines a given command, use this command to tell the bot which plugin's command to use.
<ajmitch> heh
<Seveas> damnit
<Seveas> forgot my own api :)
<Seveas> meeting delete MOTU
<zakame> eh?
<Seveas> meh, bugbot is buggy
<Seveas> meeting delete DocTeam
<Seveas> !meeting delete DocTeam
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 1 Nov 20:00 UTC: TechBoard | 19 Oct 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 19 Oct 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 25 Oct 22:00 UTC: CommunityCouncil
<Seveas> there
<Seveas> hmm, crap
<Seveas> no one seems to use
<Seveas> Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 25 Oct 22:00 UTC: CommunityCouncil  | 1 Nov 20:00 UTC: TechBoard | 16 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] :  Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 25 Oct 22:00 UTC: CommunityCouncil  | 1 Nov 20:00 UTC: TechBoard | 16 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<Seveas> begone, before you really casue problems...
<zakame> haha
* zyga is back from work :-)
<spayne> 90 minutes to go :)
<spayne> i'm on time this week
<ivoks> :)
<spayne> ivoks: it does start at 23:00 my time?
<spayne> ivoks: thanks to daylight savings i think
<ajmitch> 22:00 UTC
<ajmitch> so we can't tell what your time is
<ivoks> i 80 minutes
<spayne> ajmitch: England at the moment is GMT+1
<ajmitch> but yes, ~80 minutes
* spayne is nervous :)
<ivoks> spayne: why?
<ivoks> calm down
<spayne> ivoks: i am calm (ish)
<Mirno> Hi, I say
<Mirno> siretart: ping
<Mirno> :)
<spayne> hi BenC
<Seveas> 59 minutes to CC 
<spayne> woo!
<keyes> vous avez quoi comme jeux cool moderne et si possible d'action (et gratuit) qui tourne sous linux a me porpose?
<keyes> a part enemy territory
<spayne> isn't this an english only channel?
<keyes> ooops
<keyes> im sorry
<keyes> i'm speaking on the bad ubuntu chan ...
<david`lap> hi all!
<spayne> hello then neuro|laptop 
<neuro|laptop> yo, etc
<spayne> neuro|laptop: are you staying for the meeting?
<neuro|laptop> nah, thought i'd join a channel, then immediately /part :>
* neuro|laptop spies Riddell and pokes him in the ribs
<spayne> neuro|laptop: leave Riddell alone ;)
<neuro|laptop> nah, tis fun
<Riddell> hi neuro|laptop, what are you here for?
<neuro|laptop> mainly here to poke spayne in the ribs
<spayne> Riddell: here is to to laugh at me being emotionally tore down once i am rejected for membership ;)
<neuro|laptop> that too :>
<spayne> Riddell: i am a LUGRadioer
<panickedthumb> making sure my conversion is correct... meeting is in 45 minutes right?
<Yann2> yup
<spayne> panickedthumb: yes
<spayne> Yann2: grr ::)
<panickedthumb> right on
<spayne> neuro|laptop: are you both in Scottslug?
<panickedthumb> never heard of it
<spayne> the usergroup in scotland
<neuro|laptop> scotlug, yes
<Seveas> panickedthumb, date --utc
<Riddell> just for general information scotland has several other user groups too, scotlug just has a superiority complex
<spayne> Riddell: i've been to Scotland twice
<neuro|laptop> the lug never really known as the glasgow linux user group
<Mirno> Riddell: Hello, I say :)
<Mirno> Yann2: Salutations
<Mirno> Yann2: keyes m'a dit qu'il falalit qu'on vienne causer de plf. Je dis pas de conneries ?
<Mirno> oops
<Mirno> sorry for the french
<neuro|laptop> lol
<zakame> hello all, good early morning from .ph :)
<ivoks> 35min to go :)
<Seveas> 32
<keyes> i'm tiiireeed
<keyes> :)
<Mirno> keyes: go get some cafein
<keyes> ^^
* spayne wonders if i should prepare some witty remarks
<Seveas> no, please don't, it's going to be a long meeting
<spayne> Seveas: just kidding - why will it be long?
<spayne> Seveas: lots to do?
<ajmitch> yes
<Seveas> forums issue will come up again, that's always a time eater
<ajmitch> some meetings have gone > 2 hours
<ivoks> oh man
<Seveas> s/some/most/
<ajmitch> true
<ivoks> i have to go to work in 6 hours :)
<Seveas> rofl
<ajmitch> it's rare for a meeting to be as short as an hour
<Seveas> contrary to the TB meetings
<ivoks> Seveas: and i didn't sleep :)
<ajmitch> even MOTU meetings go for 90min-2 hours
* spayne is on half term holiday
<zakame> hmmm
<spayne> zakame: what's up?
<zakame> spayne: just woke up, now reading the morning feeds :))
<spayne> how can i add image to my Wiki page?
<Seveas> attach it (more actions -> attachments)
<spayne> you mean on my wiki page or User Preferences?
<spayne> got it
<zakame> AH! so that's how to do it!  I was wondering a bit about that...
<spayne> done! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SebPayne
<zakame> hi seb128 
<spayne> hi guys
<panickedthumb> brb
<vuntz> hey seb128 
<seb128> Hi zakame vuntz
<spayne> hey seb128
<bhuvan> 5mins to go ?
<spayne> 4 now :)
<ivoks> hi edgar 
<alexissoft> hi
<eiken0> hello
<zakame> hi alexissoft eiken0 
<keyes> hello eiken0 
<keyes> 8)
<edgar> hi ivoks
<ivoks> deresh: hi
<deresh> hi, ivoks
<zakame> wb ivoks 
<ivoks> zakame: yeah... wrong time for testing vpn :)
<ivoks> zakame: thanks :)
<alexissoft> Mirno_PLF, i prefer ULF :)
<alexissoft> (Ubuntu Liberation Front)
<Mirno_PLF> alexissoft: ... huhu
<neuro|laptop> what about KLF? :>
<keyes_PLF> ALF is the best ;)
<alexissoft> keyes_PLF, ?
<neuro|laptop> ah, ALF
<Mirno_PLF> :)
<neuro|laptop> the ultimate cheesy sitcom
<alexissoft> neuro|laptop, KULF ? :)
<keyes_PLF> the animal liberation front ;)
<keyes_PLF> http://www.animalliberationfront.com/
<tristanmike> ALF wasn't cheesy
<panickedthumb> phew
<tristanmike> ok, yes it was
<neuro|laptop> it most certainly was :)
<panickedthumb> I thought I was going to be late
<Mirno_PLF> mak packages to save the dolphins YeY \o/
<Seveas> please stop the offtopic talking
<Seveas> let's not clutter up the logs
<ivoks> elmo: hi
<Seveas> hi elmo 
<Mirno_PLF> sorry
<Yann2> hi
<ivoks> 22:00UTC
* neuro|laptop sets up #comedic_TLAs and shuts up :)
<spayne> are we ready?
<Seveas> no
<Seveas> we have only 1 (possibly 2) CC members available
<bhuvan> hum
<Seveas> please wait patiently.
<keyes_PLF> create new CC members :)
<ivoks> hey dholbach !
<Seveas> welcome dholbach 
<zakame> hey dholbach !
<mvo> hey dholbach 
<dholbach> hellas party people :)
<ogra> holla
<ivoks> oh, ogra is here too :)
<spayne> hey dholbach
<spayne> hey ogra 
<ivoks> i tought you guys are on plain for montreal :)
<ogra> sure, i stopped packing my bags for it :)
<ogra> tomorrow, 12 UTC
<ivoks> airplane even :)
<Seveas> elmo, do you know anything about the status of kamion/mako/sabdfl?
<ivoks> ogra: i wish i could come too :/
<ogra> ivoks, next time
<ivoks> ogra: yup
<selinium> hi ompaul
<neuro|laptop> Seveas: they're all online, only kamion is in chan
<ogra> Seveas, conference calls all over the place, i think they'll join as soon as they can
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-10-23
<Kamion> .wg 25
<Kamion> (sorry!)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Accessibility Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 25 Oct 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 07 Nov 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<heno> frafu: I removed your onboard agenda, point as it's more of a bug report really
<frafu> ok
<heno> this meeting is meant to focus on blue-sky new ideas and wishes :)
<frafu> blue-sky?
<frafu> ok
<frafu> i got it
<heno> We'll start in a few minutes
<heno> some of the usual participants are missing
<heno> I expect TheMuso is asleep in .au :)
<heno> Welcome Joanie!
<Joanie> thanks heno
<krister> Don't know if it's ok to introduce oneself yet, but anyways, hi, Krister from Sweden here. Rather new in the a11y team.
<heno> great idea :)
<heno> I'm Henrik Omma, from Norway, Ubuntu Accessibility Coordinator
<TheBadger> Here goes then, I'm Mikael also from Sweden, and also quite new.
<Joanie> Joanie Diggs, USA, volunteer worker bee (delegate to me)
<krister> Hi my scandinavian brother.:)
<heno> Hi :)
<heno> How many people here bare using Edgy now?
<frafu> Francesco Fumanti from Luxembourg; rather new to linux
<TheBadger> I do
* Joanie raises her hand
<heno> I get a feeling that people have been quite early in testing bleeding edge stuff
<heno> Hi gk4, we are doing introductions
<krister> I also use Edgy and have done so after a tip from the badger here.
<frafu> i do on my second machine 
<hittsjunk> I've switched from main stream Debian to Ubuntu in early September.
<heno> So today we really just have two rather broad topics
<heno> #1 is Edgy+1 planning
<heno> now known as Feisty 
<Joanie> hehehe Feisty what?
<heno> Fawn :)
<Joanie> lol cool thanks
<gk4> I'm George Kraft <gk4> from IBM.  I'm working on Linux accessibility for Gnome.
<heno> One approach is to look at the wishlist on http://live.gnome.org/Boston2006/AccessibilitySummit
<heno> and think about which parts of that are realistic in the next 6 months
<heno> and perhaps 12 months
<krister> How broad a field do we actually cover, i mean is it our goal to make as many programs as possible accessible or just a few main stream ones, like in that other alien operating system ya know?:)
<heno> The role of Ubuntu here should be to try to bring together some work that is going on in the community and package it in a useful way
<heno> krister: in our case it's more about making the toolkits and infrastructure accessible and the apps will follow
<heno> so most GTK stuff works well
<heno> while the KDE/QT stuff needs a lift with an AT-SPI implementation
<krister> That's the cool thing with this desktop. Most things seem to work.
<heno> of course we also need to test individual apps
<heno> right, but very key things like the browser are lagging a bit
<krister> Can i be specific for a moment or is this the wrong forum for it?
<heno> but great work is being done there
<heno> krister: go ahead
<krister> Any word on a good rather advanced audio editor? and how about ocr programs?
<heno> krister: I'm not sure if Jokosher is advanced enough
<heno> but is under rapid development
<heno> and is generally accessible
<heno> though we should follow it up closely
<hittsjunk> Ocrad and gocr are good enough now for me to use them to read my print mail.
<heno> hittsjunk: and you have them running on Ubuntu?
<hittsjunk> yes
<krister> I've seen a little of Jokosher, and it looks promising but i don't think it's there quite yet, but i could be wrong. I only have an rather old version.
<heno> would you mind writing a short howto somewhere?
<heno> hittsjunk: ^
<heno> in the forum, wiki or on the list
<hittsjunk> I still run them in a gnome terminal, so Windows users won't like my solution.
<hittsjunk> I feed the output from scanimage to the OCR engines.
<krister> There should be some sort of gui front end for GOcr. Could you please write the solution to the list anyway, Hitsjunk.
<hittsjunk> ok
<heno> hittsjunk: we should really get that linked up with the scanning app
<Joanie> Hi Mike
<krister> Hi Mike
<heno> OK, so I now have one new spec idea: OCR support :)
<krister> And support for midi sequenzers like Cakewalk or somesuch...
<heno> Anyone have an estimate of when Firefox 3 will be somewhat stable?
<heno> krister: are there any realistic candidates?
<heno> it would probably need to be GTK, QT or command line
<heno> What about media players, how are we doing there
<Joanie> In terms of the list from the Accessibility Summit, if there is any way to look at the sound issues (item 14) that would be great
<heno> ?
<krister> What about Ardour? I looked around for more such things with apt-cache search and found a couple. Perhaps the badger knows something
<Joanie> quirky sound issues take out screen readers 
<hittsjunk> Real player is a gtk2 app, so Windows media is the only missing format I know about.
<heno> hittsjunk: have you tried VLC with GTK or mplay (command line)?
<MikePedersen> I think the real problem with sound cards is the legacy OSS support that often times gets used
<hittsjunk> no
<heno> Joanie: yep, I think we may be moving to polyaudio or something
<Joanie> very cool
<heno> Though I should raise this as an issue with our sound people (if we have any?...) 
<Joanie> Yeah, if that can be prioritized.... 
<heno> I'll add that to my topic list
<Joanie> oh shoot, I just realized that I forgot to file on launchpad regarding a sound for the initial live cd screen
* Joanie slaps forhead
<krister> Does anyone know if there's a sound forge like app for Linux accessible or not. Jokosher is multi-channel, Badger? or anyone
<heno> MikePedersen: you were at the boston summit right?
<Joanie> i'll file, but that little change would make a big difference
<heno> we are looking at http://live.gnome.org/Boston2006/AccessibilitySummit
<heno> to find implementable items :)
<MikePedersen> yes I was
<heno> krister: a good place to ask might be the ubuntu studio team: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=128
<MikePedersen> We spent a lot of time talking about accessibility testing
<heno> Of applications, right. Is that a key bottleneck now?
<heno> Is the lack of support in application one of the main problems?
<krister> Heno, can you please mail that url to me at krister@kristersplace.ws? I'll have to go to windblows to check that out, since i don't entirely trust my dear firefox 3.:-(
<heno> And how much testing can be done manually by the community?
<heno> as opposed to automated tools, still in development
<heno> krister: sure
<MikePedersen> yes, we'd like to get as much automated testing for the infrustructure and the applications as possible
<hittsjunk> KrysterKryster, I saw an email about a sound editor in Emacs on the debian-accessibility list.  You mi9ght want to check the archives.
<krister> Ok, i'll first tame Emacs and then i'll definitely check that.<smiles>
<heno> MikePedersen: how far away is a working automated testing system do you think?
<heno> that can see widespread use
<MikePedersen> I don't know yet,  We are looking at dogtail right now
<MikePedersen> There is also hope of more colaberation between the dogtail and LDTP guys 
<heno> ok. we have some general testing plans as well, but progress seems to have been slow
<MikePedersen> There will be a new list starting on gnome.org to discuss this shortly
<heno> yep, we should encourage that
<heno> anyone have comments about https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Specs
<heno> That's mainly my list of ideas
<heno> but other people should add theirs
<heno> How important is good access to GDM in real life?
<krister> What situations are we talking about now, sorry dumb question?
<heno> how many people use public/shared Ubuntu machines or may do so in the future
<heno> where bthat would be important
<Burgwork> heno: gdm accessibility is key thing
<hittsjunk> The gdm sound letting me know I can login is good enough for me.
<MikePedersen> we should be getting good aces to GDM with gnome 2.18.  Some of the patches have already been checked in.
<heno> I guess most people have their home computers set up to ato login
<heno> *auto
<Joanie> yep, I think most do
<hittsjunk> not me
<jonsd> What's a GDM?
<MikePedersen> didn't know you could do auto-login
<Burgwork> jonsd: the login manager
<heno> MikePedersen: good as in not broken or as in Just Works? :)
<MikePedersen> Hopefully, just works
<heno> AFAIR, the instructions for setting it up are several pages long
<heno> ok
<krister> I didn't know you could auto-login either...
<hittsjunk> Until I can can run gnome apps on another system remotely, gdm isn't much use to me.
<heno> so we could get that for free
<Joanie> I'm thinking that needs to be on the wiki 
<heno> (from gnome)
<heno> Joanie: yes, there are some useful tips we should collate somewhere
<MikePedersen> We'll also get apps that require sudo for free with 2.18
<heno> not directly documentation, but just useful info
<Joanie> right, tips and instructions for accomplishing them
<krister> What i feel would be important, but it's probably worked on already is a good way of making speech and braille follow when you switch to root when doing things with Symaptic or the update manager or such.
<heno> speaking of documentation :) Burgwork is on the doc team
<MikePedersen> we'll get that with gnome 2.18 Krister
* Burgwork ducks
* Joanie laughs.  I can do some doc work periodically
<heno> I'm sure there are things we could update there
<Joanie> burgwork:  you lead the doc team?
<heno> should the access team have a documentation coordinator?
<Burgwork> Joanie: no, mdke does
<heno> That can work with the doc team
<Joanie> oh dunno.  Just wondering if there is one, being one of the new kids on the block
<Joanie> mdke is for general, or accessibility?
<Burgwork> general
<heno> and generally make sure we have reasonable docs for the web and the CD
<Joanie> k ty
<heno> that does not mean writing all the docs, but coordinating
<frafu> a  coordinator for the doc would be a good idea, as the doc is rather sparsed around 
<Joanie> yeah, maybe we should have someone coordinating
<heno> So do we have volunteers ? ;)
* Joanie steps back
<heno> frafu: ?
<Joanie> I am a volunteer worker bee; not coordinator :)
<frafu> but it should be someone that already knows what documentation we already have 
<heno> that rules me out :)
<frafu> in order to clean it up
<heno> we are at the start of a cycle now, so there is 4-5 months to get it in shape
<frafu> I am afraid I don't know enough yet 
<krister> Not me either.
<MikePedersen> I'm afraid orca takes all my time.
<frafu> maybe 2 coordinators, one for the visual impaired and one for the motor impaired
<heno> We did have some people volunteering to do doc work on the list
<krister> What would be the tasks?
<heno> frafu: I'm not sure a split is a good idea. could cause confusion eventually
<heno> make a list of the apps and topics that need documentation
<heno> check the current status and ask others to help
<heno> then coordinate with the doc team on what should go into their main documentation
<heno> and what we should leave in the wiki
<frafu> where would the doc be? (if not in the wiki) 
<heno> in the help browser on the CD and on help.ubuntu.com
<krister> Accompanying the program ass a special a11y readme, perhaps?
<frafu> ok, for offline use!? 
<heno> the advantage of adding content to the docteam pool is that it gets translated by many volunteers in rosetta
<heno> frafu: right
<heno> or even printing
<frafu> Then it has to be in a special format? 
<heno> some of the docteam stuff gets printed as well
<heno> yes, docbook
<heno> but the docteam can help transferring it from the bwiki
<heno> *wiki
<heno> that's their area of expertise
<heno> it can all be written in the wiki first
<frafu> Is the docpool anywhere online to see what is already available? 
<heno> frafu: https://help.ubuntu.com/
<MikePedersen> All, I now have to leave for another meeting.  If any questions come op for me, please send me a note at: michael.pedersen@sun.com
<Joanie> take care Mike
<heno> MikePedersen: cool, thanks for joining us!
<MikePedersen> I'l always try to attend.
<heno> OK so we'll let people chew on the doc coordination a bit
<frafu> bye Mike
<heno> another topic is forum coordination
<heno> to keep an eye on the forums and stay in touch with the forum staff
<heno> We are still getting a fair number of off-topic posts in there
<heno> (about wireless access and such)
<heno> but I'm not sure it's a big problem
<frafu> is it not the job of the moderators of each forum? 
<heno> someone has to notify them
<heno> there are only about 20 of them for the whole forums
<heno> so they cannot watch everything
<frafu> notify by pm? 
<krister> I don't think you can totally avoid such problems with posts drifting off-topic if you don't put up rules that prohibit those posts, and i don't think we want that.
<heno> another task there would be to answer simple questions, point to documentation or seek help from the wider community if needed
<heno> frafu: yes
<heno> krister: it's not that they drift off topic, they start completely off topic
<heno> they are about accessing your samba server not accessibility
<heno> I'm not it's actually a problem though
<krister> Ok, that sounds like wrong topics there...
<frafu> i know of another board with a notify moderator button; may be it is a good idea to add such a button 
<heno> I'm more worried about people not getting answers when they ask
<heno> frafu: that is a good idea, I'll bring it up
<krister> Or getting the all too common answer in this world, RTFM. I could maybe try answering simple questions on the list.
<frafu> the button should be good visible 
<heno> the most common example is sound problems
<heno> or general boot problems
<heno> which many forum regular know the answers to
<hittsjunk> rtfm is the best thing to do when you are new to something.
<heno> but our community is still a bit small, so we may not
<Joanie> yeah, but rtfm is not all that friendly or in keeping with the ubuntu philosophy
<Joanie> if we want more users with disabilities to adopt linux....
<heno> yeah, it's bad form
<frafu> and the person does not know what rtfm means;) 
<Joanie> lol true frafu
<heno> then it's ok :)
<Joanie> but when they find out, they are likely to bail
<hittsjunk> True, but I loose patients with people who ask me the same question over and over because they won't read the links I give them.
<Joanie> radio transmitter frequency modulation, yeah, yeah....
<heno> but it can be said nicely by providing a link
<krister> And Kenny, i'll have to say that i consider myself very new to the Linux environment although i've come a long way, and sometimes, i find i don't even know what FM to R in the first place.:)
<Joanie> agreed hittsjunk
<Joanie> and agreed krister
<heno> do others agree that one or two forum coordinators would be useful?
<Joanie> yeah
<heno> who can help new people and forward questions
<heno> I'm not sure if the mailing lists need the same
<heno> unlikely at this point
<TheBadger> That's a good idea
<krister> Hitsjunk, i know where you come from, but see it like this, maybe they don't understand what they read and you or i explain things better than a rather dry man page or link.
<hittsjunk> Maybe, but the Gnome users guide explains basics better than I could.
<krister> I can't argue with you there, because i've only been to the help system.:-)
<heno> perhaps forum coordination/mentoring should actually be shared between a VI and an MI person?
<hittsjunk> I don't mind answering questions about I link I tell you to read I just have a problem when people don't read.
<frafu> vi,  mi? 
<heno> since personal experience can be important in answering questions
<heno> frafu: what you mentioned before: visual impairment and motoric impairment
<frafu> I also answer question when I know what has to be done 
<heno> of course 'other' people can apply too ;)
<heno> frafu: do you think it would help in some way to have a coordinator hat?
<heno> some semi-official role?
<frafu> I still don't understand exactly what you mean 
<frafu> if somebody wants to answer in the forum he will do so
<heno> someone who checks the forum once a week for unanswered questions and can forward them with some official capacity to other parts of the forum or mailing lists
<frafu> he can notify about wrong topics
<heno> as a forum mentor
<heno> right, but the forums have 130.000+ members, 99.9% of who don't read the accessibility section
<heno> when a question about sound or partitioning show up
<frafu> okk; are you talking about all the forums  or only the accessibiliy forum
<frafu> ? 
<heno> that can be linked to a new question in the general section
<heno> explaining some of the background, why jumping to the shell might not be a working solution for this person, etc.
<frafu> if you are talking only of the accessibiliy forum, i can do it 
<heno> I'm talking about helping out in the access forums, yes
<heno> but drawing on the resources of the whole community
<frafu> unfortunately, I don't know much about accessibility except m2
<heno> as someone who has a bit more of an overview than a completely new person
<heno> but you now know where the general docs are found, how to log in to IRC to ask a question, etc
<frafu> yes, i do
<heno> and if you get stuck you can email or ping me on IRC
<heno> if you don't know the answer you can draw in someone who does
<frafu> i am ready to try and see what I can do 
<heno> frafu: cool! I'll get you a hat :)
<krister> Too bad i can't build Elinks with Ecma script suppoHeno, how about a fedora?:-)
<krister> ignore the first part of that msg
<heno> no, but seriously I think that other community members will be happy to help with forwarded questions
<frafu> i will do my best 
<finalbeta> Hello, I'm not part of the team, so I hope I'm not invading or in the wrong place. I posted the last idea on this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Ideas/Edgy+1 "Enhance spell checking". Read you where looking for idea's, That one would be immensely handy. being able to switch between languages for spell checking.
<frafu> you know already different people i could contact? 
<heno> frafu: are you happy to look at vision/sound questions as well, or would you like someone to share the job?
<heno> finalbeta: I agree. do you have an idea of what packages need improving to make that work?
<frafu> it would be better if someone would share the job, otherwise I will probably only be able to point the person to already existing documentation
<finalbeta> heno, I think it should be discussed on how it could even be implemented. Like when talking xchat, how do you allow users to switch.
<heno> any other volunteers to help with the forum mentoring?
<heno> (we can ask on the forum and lists too)
<hittsjunk> I can try, but I'm not the most dependable.
<heno> heh, ok thanks hittsjunk
<heno> the volume is not too great ATM
<heno> finalbeta: it would be nice to switch keyboard layouts too
<krister> If the forum involves the mailing list, i can answer simple questions, but don't come to me for answers about programming or emacs, cause i don't know the first thing about them.:-)
<heno> I keep typing  in the wrong places =
<heno> :) rather
<heno> krister: great, thanks. Looks like we have a support team!
<krister> Then i'll take care of the mailing list?
<heno> krister: excellent
<finalbeta> heno, I agree, but that seems like another issue. Switching of keyboard layouts. Since that is global, and spell-checking supports seems to be something that is handled per application.
<heno> finalbeta: I wonder if it would be possible for the spellchecker to figure out what language is being used?
<krister> Hitsjunk, be ready for stupid newbie questions from me.:-)<smiles>
<finalbeta> heno, MS Word can do it, but I have not yet seen it on a linux program.
<hittsjunk> No problem.  I'll also try to answer questions on the list.
<hittsjunk> Remember, most of my experience in in the console.
<heno> it can often be useful to copy in other lists, like the general user list or gnome-accessibility
<krister> I'm slowly getting used to that evil beast myself, finally.:)
<heno> depending on the question
<finalbeta> heno, the problem with spellchecking I think is that every program seems to have it's own way of doing it. Gaim, Openoffice, Totem, Xchat..., how can you enable spellchecking in multiple languages in all those packages in a consistent way.
<heno> the a-devel list has not seen much use, but it will pick up with the new cycle
<finalbeta> (Scratch Totem from that list :p )
<heno> finalbeta: yep, it's a generally useful idea. do you know how to set up a spec?
<Burgwork> finalbeta: there was a spec to change that
<Burgwork> however, licensing is an issue
<heno> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SpecSpec
<finalbeta> Burgwork, yes, with firefox, that spec was to enable one spellchecking lib. But not to enable spellchecking in multiple languages
<Burgwork> ah
<jonsd> A spellchecker ought to be able to recognise which language by looking for the one with fewest errors.  Auto language recognition for TTS would be useful too.  Perhaps a spellchecker could look at the text in order to tell TTS whuch language?
<finalbeta> Openoffice or firefox, on of the two needed it's own lib because of licensing. (I vagualy remember reading it)
<Burgwork> FF
<Burgwork> due to the MPL
<frafu> is there not already a framework for spellchecking in linux that could be used by the different apps? 
<Burgwork> there are a number of libraries that provide that framework
<finalbeta> jonsd, indeed. The spellcheckers throughtout the system should be able to do this for the languages the user enabled language support for.
<Burgwork> I guess you coudl say that there are multiple
<heno> jonsd: that's s cool idea!
<krister> Jonst, this provided that there's a tts engine for that language. AFAIK there's only one engine today that support Swedish, for example and that's Festival, and i don't know how good that is.
<heno> perhaps it should be implemented in the spellcheckers first and then tie the TTS into that
<jonsd> I'll set up a Sweedish voice for eSpeak if you want to make it useable :-)
<TheBadger> Well i hope to in sometime have some success with swedish for the espeak.
<hittsjunk> I don't know how ggood festival sounds in Swedish, but it is one of the more stable gnome-speech drivers.
<jonsd> But Sweedish sounds look very complicated, see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweedish_phonology
<heno> what about spell checking as you type for screen reader users?
<heno> is there anything useable today?
<krister> No, or rather yes provided spell checker and speech provides the same languages.
<heno> has anyone tried mbrola?
<TheBadger> It is, but i have done some testing
<heno> that does have Swedish 
<krister> But mbrola and festival is the same, ain't it?
<heno> does the same job, but in different ways
<hittsjunk> No, festival can use mbrola voices, but they are different synths.
<krister> Badger, is it the embrola voices you have for Swedish?
<heno> mrbrola is also not 100% Debian free
<heno> so we cannot put it on the CD
<TheBadger> I hope we could get some better functionality with seech-dispatcher (or a direkt driver for espeak).
<krister> could one stuff it into multiverse?
<heno> but we could put it in 'multiverse'
<heno> right
<heno> It would be great to see some testing of this
<heno> the Oralux team have made some packages as well
<heno> which may well install on Ubuntu
<krister> I'd love to, if i only knew what to do and how.<smiles>
<heno> look back a few weeks in the mailing list at the post from Oralux about it
<hittsjunk> I was planning to use the Oralux packages when I installed Mbrola this time.  I'll post my results.
<heno> hittsjunk: cool!
<krister> Does Embrola work with gnome-speech or speech dispatcher?
<TheBadger> I've tried these a bit, but was unable to get the connection to gnome to work.
<hittsjunk> You use Mbrola with festival, and the gnome-speech festival driver.
<hittsjunk> The Mbrola voices will show up as festival voices.
<krister> Sounds complex, is there a howto somewhere?
<hittsjunk> yes
<hittsjunk> I don't have the link handy, but I'll find it.
<hittsjunk> If the Oralux packages work, it will be a lot easier to get it working.
<finalbeta> (Should I write a Spec about the Multiple language spell-checking, or can one of the accessibility teamers do it? If I do it it's likely to get ignored, like the other spec I wrote, heh)
<krister> Hitsjunk could we keep intouch via mail about this and about that elinks bug thingy?
<hittsjunk> sure. kenny@hittsjunk.net
<heno> finalbeta: writing the spec is only part of it, then you need to make others aware of (as you are now doing)
<frafu> heno: you asked before whether accessibility at the login was important: there was a thread in the accessibiliy forum where a user said it would be important to have onboard at the login screen on a tablet pc
<heno> it should also be scheduled for the summit
<heno> frafu: I remember. it's sort of a use case in the spec too
<frafu> ok
<heno> OK, shall we start to wrap up and continue detailed talks in #ubuntu-accessibility?
<krister> Wonder if the auralux packages contained Swedish. As i understood it from the mail there were only a few languages, but i could be wrong.
<heno> I think we've have a great meeting today!
<heno> some new ideas and a new support team!
<krister> Wow!
<heno> and it's been nearly two hours :)
<frafu> There is another thing I was wondering: why are you trying to add the accessibiliy to the normal livecd; why don't you make special cds? 
<heno> not as long as some community council meetings of course
<heno> frafu: for several reasons:
<frafu> one for vi and one for mi
<Joanie> I'm all for special cds if they provide more compelling access, but I see live CDs in places like CompUSA.  
<Joanie> they should all be accessible
<heno> yep.
<hittsjunk> Special CD's always will lag.  One of the things I like about Ubuntu is they include accessibility in the main CD.
<krister> Agreed Kenny!
<heno> this way we get more exposure, more help from core developers, makes it easier to maintain, we don't lag several months behind
<heno> we actually followed the separate approach first
<krister> And we are on the cutting edge, which is very cool i think.
<heno> but it did lag
<hittsjunk> The difference shows.  I couldn't use Gnome  full time until I switched to Ubuntu.
<heno> It really started to pick up momentum when we joined the main CD
<krister> I couldn't use gnome at all under Sarge.
<hittsjunk> Main stream Debian has to many problems that have been solved in Ubuntu.
<heno> btw, you should all try Xubuntu as well
<Joanie> screen reader support there?
<heno> It's got Orca, festival etc.
<Joanie> wow
<Joanie> didn't know that
<heno> and it's very light weight
<heno> yeah, we've been working in the shadows :)
<TheBadger> Same way to start accessibility?
<heno> Not sure if the CD boot menu stuff will make it for edgy, but you can start it manually
<heno> not all the XFCE apps have good access support either
<heno> but we should work towards that
<heno> see http://blog.omma.net/?p=18
<krister> I can't boot my live cd, because there's something wrong in how Ubuntu sees my graphics card. It simply can't start in 24 bit mode.
<heno> krister: you should be able to type in some alternative boot commands with F6 at the boot menu
<krister> Dunno the alternative commands.:)
<heno> the safe graphics mode option might work too
<hittsjunk> There should be text files on the CD with the different possible boot commands.
<krister> Didn't we try that, Badger?
<heno> krister: I'll look it up for you
<TheBadger> will tryI think so.
<heno> krister: first try: boot CD, press down arrow once, then F5, etc
<heno> that should start it in safe graphics mode
<heno> (whatever that is exactly)
<TheBadger> I think its vesa
<krister> Is that the same as force-vesa or something like that, if so, i think it didn't work.
<heno> ah, ok. I dunno
<hittsjunk> Kryster, do you know the make and model of your graphics card?
<heno> this is a good question for the wider community though :)
<krister> I think theres something screwed up with the i810 driver, that's what i use... don't know though.
<heno> lots of people will know the answer to this in #ubuntu and elsewhere
<krister> Ok, i'll dig around.
<hittsjunk> I was going to suggest you google using the chipset on the mother board and Ubuntu as your search.
<krister> Will do.
<heno> ok, I'm off to sleep :)
<heno> Thanks all for joining!
<krister> Sounds like a great idea.
<Joanie> i've got to take off.  take care y'all
<frafu> good night heno; I have to go to sleep to
<krister> Kenny, still there?
<hittsjunk> yes
<frafu> bye
<hittsjunk> I was about to move to #ubuntu-accessibility.
<krister> Ok see ya there.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 25 Oct 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 07 Nov 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-10-24
<lguerra> @schedule bogota
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Bogota: 25 Oct 15:00: Edubuntu | 07 Nov 15:00: Technical Board
<lucas> @schedule paris
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 25 Oct 22:00: Edubuntu | 07 Nov 21:00: Technical Board
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-10-25
<highvoltage> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 25 Oct 20:00: Edubuntu | 07 Nov 20:00: Technical Board
<GNAM> @schedule ROME
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 25 Oct 22:00: Edubuntu | 07 Nov 21:00: Technical Board
<GNAM> everyone is working at edgy release
<GNAM> no time for meetings.
<tonyyarusso> Yep
<lotusleaf> merry meetings
<nixternal> @schedule chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 25 Oct 15:00: Edubuntu | 07 Nov 14:00: Technical Board
<lguerra> @schedule bogota
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Bogota: 25 Oct 15:00: Edubuntu | 07 Nov 15:00: Technical Board
<ian_brasil> @schedule manaus
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Manaus: 25 Oct 16:00: Edubuntu | 07 Nov 16:00: Technical Board
<rodarvus> @schedule Sao_Paulo
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Sao_Paulo: 25 Oct 18:00: Edubuntu | 07 Nov 18:00: Technical Board
<sivang> @schedule Israel
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Israel: 25 Oct 22:00: Edubuntu | 07 Nov 22:00: Technical Board
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Edubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Nov 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<stgraber> @schedule Zurich
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: Current meeting: Edubuntu | 07 Nov 21:00: Technical Board
<Boondoggle> every body ./j thetravelers
<nixternal> oh sure, let me get right on that
* nixternal kicks the #ubuntu-meeting channel - WAKE UP! Edubuntu Meeting Time ;)
<stgraber> hi
<highvoltage> hi nixternal and stgraber 
<nixternal> well hello there
<highvoltage> and LaserJock, of course
<RichEd> hi ... will get going in 1 min
<nixternal> oh no, LaserJock is here
<LaserJock> sorry, I keep forgetting to join this channel
<nixternal> thats alright LaserJock, we keep forgetting to tell you about it ;)
<juliux> hi all
<sbalneav> Ok, so, we're discussing how the Edubuntu desktop's being replaced by a re-write of the "pong" game in python, right?
<highvoltage> *BONG*
* RichEd jumps to attention at the sound of the bong
<RichEd> hello all
<ajmitch> hi RichEd :)
* nixternal request urinalysis for those excited by the "bong"
<RichEd> time and energy is limited so we will keep it brief
<sbalneav> I was thinking of the gong show.
<rodarvus> hi there
<nixternal> haha
<sbalneav> Thought chuck berry had joined our ranks.
<highvoltage> hehe
<highvoltage> roll over beat hoven
<cbx33> sorry guys...I'm not gonna be able to make the meeting tonight?
<RichEd> TECH UPDATE
<highvoltage> cbx33: I don't know. I thought you'd know
<nixternal> lol
<RichEd> ogra is busy testing
<RichEd> from 2 mins ago from #ubuntu-release: <mdz> looking good, everyone
<cbx33> damn me and silly punctuation
<sbalneav> My tests last night went swimmingly.
<cbx33> mine too
<RichEd> so we are all holding thumbs for a smooth release :)
<cbx33> peace out dudes
<nixternal> tests here have been good so far as well, on the stand alone side
<RichEd> bye cbx33 
<nixternal> later cbx33
<cbx33> oh RichEd 
<highvoltage> bye cbx33 
<rodarvus> release is expected next morning
<cbx33> can I just pm you quick about a meeting item?
<rodarvus> and unless something goes really bad, should happen successfully
<RichEd> sure cbx33 
<RichEd> rodarvus: you can lead tech update ... any other comments / news
<rodarvus> yes, I'd like to remind everyone that as soon as Edgy is released
<rodarvus> (tomorrow)
<rodarvus> we are going to work FULL TIME on preparation for UDS Mountain View
<rodarvus> so, if you need help to add your stuff to features.launchpad.net
<RichEd> cbx33: before you go ... some excited comments on your uplash screen flying around
<rodarvus> please do not hesitate contacting us
<LaserJock> rodarvus: any word on when the feisty repos will open?
<rodarvus> LaserJock, yes, when edgy is released
<rodarvus> but the first few days are reserved for toolchain
<rodarvus> glibc, gcc, binutils, etc
<LaserJock> ok
<rodarvus> and no other packages are allowed until this is stabilized
<LaserJock> sure
<highvoltage> rodarvus: and do we know yet if there's going to be a way for people outside UDS-MTV to communicate with the BoF sessions?
<rodarvus> expect this to take at least one week, maybe two
<rodarvus> in other words, right after UDS mountain vew
<rodarvus> highvoltage, yes, this is under heavy testing right now.
<juliux> highvoltage, good point
<highvoltage> great.
<rodarvus> its quite likely that we'll use Ekiga conference rooms
<cbx33> cool
<LaserJock> ok, I was thinking of trying to upload some stuff for people to try before Mt View but I'll wait
<juliux> cool
<cbx33> good I hyope RichEd 
<highvoltage> oh excellent
<rodarvus> so, no more closed source software for conferencing :)
<highvoltage> teamspeak R.I.P.
<rodarvus> LaserJock, yeah, unfortunately that will have to wait
<highvoltage> "Player has left the game"
<sbalneav> \o/ ekiga
<LaserJock> haha
<rodarvus> clan anyhow, final note on the features: make sure you have *your* plans there. its much easier to have your stuff added to feisty if it was planned in advance
<rodarvus> and developed according to the plans
<rodarvus> even if you are not going to be on MV, add it to the feature list
<rodarvus> and those of us that are there can discuss it
<rodarvus> (and you can participate via Ekiga, or whatever tool is chosen, and gobby)
<cbx33> rodarvus, is there an http proxy for Ekiga?
<RichEd> if you just have ideas, send to the mailing list ... we'll cobble together proper launchpad features
<rodarvus> cbx33, yes, there is
<rodarvus> RichEd, exactly
<cbx33> rodarvus, please please, if we can sort somekind of http proxy for these tools
<cbx33> I can still attend a lot from work
<cbx33> if you could mail me some details that would be so fantastic
<rodarvus> cbx33, I'm sure the support team is working on this, but I'll remember them when I talk to them tomorrow morning
<cbx33> right I really gotta go
<cbx33> please do
<cbx33> I'll email yuo ua reminder tonight ;)
<RichEd> cbx33: mail me and rodarvus about a wiki page for "outside attendees"
<cbx33> rodarvus, it's possible I can take one day off work if there is a BOF that is very pertainent to me....
<cbx33> and that means I'm ok witho ut the http proy...
<rodarvus> cbx33, I don't think you'll need a day off. make sure Lisa is ok with you awake until late evening, though :D
<cbx33> but I need http proxy for gobby and ekiga ;)
<RichEd> We will discuss UDS in detail at next weeks meeting
<cbx33> haha
<cbx33> ok
<rodarvus> our working day starts when your working day is over, in the UK
<cbx33> ah yes
<cbx33> ok peace out
<cbx33> ;)
<rodarvus> say UTC-8, I think
<RichEd> so cbx33 : bring up a wiki page at the meeting then
<rodarvus> anyhow, this is basically what I had to talk on tech update
<highvoltage> btw, do we have the http://www.boingboing.net/2006/10/25/msie_sends_a_cake_to.html covered?
<pygi> hey all
<pygi> sorry for being late :(
<rodarvus> on less than bright news, my laptop was stolen this morning, with all my email, and other important stuff. if you have sent me an email, please resend it to me, so I can properly answer
<sbalneav> Oh noes!
<Seveas> rodarvus, : (
<sbalneav> From your house?
<highvoltage> rodarvus: urgh!
<highvoltage> rodarvus: backups++
<rodarvus> from inside a bus
<rodarvus> highvoltage, I always have backups
<highvoltage> :)
<rodarvus> but I nuked my weekly backup just a few days ago, for doing Edgy installation testing
<rodarvus> (dude, that hurts)
<rodarvus> I'll also have to buy a new laptop for me, in time for MV
<rodarvus> and this is going to be *hard*, in Brazil
<rodarvus> wish me luck :)
<LaserJock> man, that is to terrible
* LaserJock has flashbacks of Paris
<RichEd> rodarvus: are prices bad in Brazil - can someone bring one for you from a cheaper place ?
<highvoltage> LaserJock: you and rodarvus can start a support group ;)
<LaserJock> yeah, I didn't loose nearly as much as Rodrigo though, unless somebody in Paris steals my identity
<LaserJock> *lose
<rodarvus> RichEd, prices are horrible in brazil - I'm talking with mneptok already, though
<RichEd> good ... keep in mind that models like HP / compaq have a world wide guarantee
<juliux> the hp nx series are very cheap here
* pips1 joins the meeting quietly
<rodarvus> I'm considering getting an IBM this time
<LaserJock> rodarvus: and you can't wait until you are actually in Mountain View? surely buying a laptop in Silicon Valley would be cheaper than in Brazil
<rodarvus> the problem with brazil is that laptop insurance here is extremely expensive
<rodarvus> like, 400 US$ per year or such
<rodarvus> LaserJock, yeah, that is the idea
<LaserJock> for insurance?!?!
<rodarvus> yup
<LaserJock> insane
<RichEd> Okay ... back to the agenda :)
<rodarvus> yes, sorry for taking the meeting off-agenda
<pips1> did I read correctly... release is probably going to be tomorrow?!
<RichEd> no problem
<highvoltage> pips1: yep, all along :)
<ajmitch> rodarvus: I can sympathise with your loss :)
<RichEd> yes pips1 testing had a glitch earlier, but all seems good now
<rodarvus> pips1, yes
<RichEd> rodarvus: when you said: <rodarvus> anyhow, this is basically what I had to talk on tech update
<RichEd> were you done, or about to start ??
<rodarvus> I'm done
<RichEd> okay ... moving on ...
<RichEd> Technical Documentation
<RichEd> nixternal: comments ? you are the main man here
<nixternal> how am i the main man?  all i do is update the svn ;)
<nixternal> handbook won't be ready, and truthfully i think it may need some restructuring
<RichEd> ^^ well you know the status better than anyone ...
<nixternal> i would rather be safe right now, take our time, an dnot rush...
<nixternal> well as for the typical documentation that goes out with every release, I dont' know who does that for you all, or even where it is stored
<RichEd> what issues will it cause if people do not have an new version ?
<nixternal> new version or?
<nixternal> of?
<nixternal> no or
<nixternal> argh, i can't type
<sbalneav> Any chance of posting the information somewhere, in html form?  There's precious little doco for the ltsp side of things, and some of the stuff that I've brought in there will help us to reduce our support load.
<nixternal> sbalneav: yes
<RichEd> i.e. if people are downloading and installing edgy, and looking at old documents, wil they have a huge gap anywhere ?
<nixternal> it needs to validate first, which shouldn't be to difficult for me to get done, and then it needs to be groomed
<LaserJock> RichEd: I don't think there are any old documents
<nixternal> im checking now
<LaserJock> the only real deadline was for shipping docs
<nixternal> it is all Ubuntu docs anyways
<LaserJock> anything else (HTML, etc.) can be done at any time
<nixternal> LaserJock: how come Edubuntu doesn't have a release notes, about edubuntu, and desktop guide in the first place?
<LaserJock> it had release notes at one point
<nixternal> every other project does, but Edubuntu utilizes the Ubuntu documentation, which I think could be problematic since it doesn't cover anything Edubuntu
<LaserJock> but for the rest, nobody has written it
<nixternal> OK, well the Handbook will become the "Desktop Guide" eventually
<LaserJock> yep
<ogra> nixternal: it covers server and desktop administration ... 
<ogra> (the ubuntu docs)
<LaserJock> but it isn't shipped so we don't need to worry about timeline right now
<pips1> the only edubuntu-specific documentation that is shipping on the cd is the firefox start page, or not?
<ogra> yes
<pips1> right
<ogra> currently thats it
<RichEd> And from all accounts, most things are easier in Edgy than Dapper, so there should be less need for help ?
<ogra> RichEd wanted a short testing status ...
<ogra> right
<nixternal> ogra: did the firefox start page get fixed, title wise?
<ogra> well, depends where you look at ...
<pips1> what about documentation that is launched with the release? i.e. release notes are done in the ubuntu release notes, right? anything else?
<ogra> we didnt change any apps, so teh maintenance and configuration questions for these will stay teh same 
<RichEd> ogra: go ahead ...  with testing status when you are ready
<pygi> nixternal: it should become Desktop Guide in Feisty
<pygi> everything else is not an option
<nixternal> Handbook will become the dg in feisty?
<nixternal> man it takes me forever to spell that little word
<ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Current has the testing status ... edubuntu is the table at the bottom
<nixternal> ogra: i will add some info in a bit to it...all my i386 stand alone is PASS, except for the "resizing" portions
<ogra> oh, whats wrong there ? 
<nixternal> i didn't do resizing..no fial
<nixternal> sorry
<nixternal> ya, i left you hanging
<ogra> ah, fine 
<pips1> ogra: what's the status of testing the dist-upgrade?
<pips1> I started to test a amd64 edubuntu server upgrade test myself earlier, but did have a chance to go through with it yet...
<ogra> i thought it was broken for you or something :)
<nixternal> i re-read it and went i bet ogra is like oh no, whats wrong ;)
<ogra> pips1: i did one and i think juliux did one as well
<ogra> but mine dates about a week back 
<ogra> i'll do one tomorrow morning if there is still time left
<pips1> does the dist-upgrade run through completely fine, or does it need any manual steps from the user?
<pips1> ?
<pygi> pips1: runs fine
<pips1> I only noted jelkner did a dist-upgrade earlier and managed to get his system running with a little help from highvoltage
<pips1> pygi: ok, thanks
<highvoltage> jelkner did some unique things, it seems
<pips1> right :-)
<highvoltage> she overwrote her /etc/exports file with a blank file somehow
<pips1> he
<ogra> btw https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EnableLTSP5LocalDevices
* RichEd was wondering about jeff and a sex change
* highvoltage gets confused with all the jelkner
<ogra> in case someone asks again about local deviuces
<pips1> hehe
<highvoltage> aaah, I was confusing jelkner with elkbuntu :)
<pygi> highvoltage: !
<highvoltage> (IT'S LATE, OKAY!)
<pygi> highvoltage: dont shout ;)
* pips1 notes that the meeting topic has gone back to TECH for the testing update
* pips1 wonders if the tech DOC topic is done yet
<highvoltage> pips1: as it usually does ;)
<pips1> <pips1> what about documentation that is launched with the release? 
<pips1>  release notes are done in the ubuntu release notes, right? anything else?
<RichEd> re agenda: ogra was busy, and just popped in for tech
<pips1> ah
<RichEd> pips1: as ar as I know ... yes
<RichEd> *as far
<ogra> right, please move on ...
<pips1> what about DOC on the edubuntu.org site? does any page need to be updated specifically? 
<RichEd> pips1: yes ... there are a few related to downloads ...
<pips1> oh these last minute questions, lordy!
<RichEd> we need to explain the following:
<pips1> ok, I can update the mirror download links, no problem
<RichEd> 1. there is now Edgy as well as LTS for download
<ogra> gettingstarted should also get a rewrite ...
<RichEd> we need to make sure people can see both ... LTS is not meant to be replaced by Edgy
<RichEd> thanks ogra : I'll add to my page of thinsg to review
<highvoltage> it needs a heavy re-write
<ogra> RichEd: but that can happen next week, its just dropping off stuff 
<RichEd> that's good ... I have noted and we will work though it
<ogra> highvoltage: well, i'd say its fine it just has to much stuff on it for todays edubuntu
<pips1> RichEd: understood. we need both Edgy and LTS dowload (mirror) listings 
<RichEd> rejden: Edgy vs LTS here is the official statement
<RichEd> <quote>
<RichEd> Edubuntu 6.10 will be supported for 18 months on both desktops
<RichEd> and servers. Note that the previous stable release (6.06 LTS)
<RichEd> is a long-term support release, and so users requiring a longer
<RichEd> support lifetime may choose to continue using that version rather
<RichEd> than upgrade to or install 6.10.
<RichEd> <end quote>
<highvoltage> 6.06 is really still good.
<RichEd> We also need to explain that there will be NO free shipit CDs for Edgy for Edubuntu
<RichEd> Options are:
<RichEd> download Edgy or LTS
<ogra> not even for LOCOs as promised before ?
<RichEd> shipit LTS
* pips1 copy-pastes the quote for inclusion on the download page
<RichEd> buy Edgy : I have list of suppliers
<pips1> OHH
<highvoltage> 6) Freedom toasters :)
<RichEd> as in pay for the CD not the s/w <- before I get shot down in flames !
<sbalneav> Can we buy cd's?
* pygi shoots down RichEd 
<ogra> RichEd: are you positively sure that we dont ship edgy to LoCo's ?
<RichEd> ogra: I will confirm this ... it may be by request only, but the Shipit pages state Dapper only
<ogra> sbalneav: sure, since breezy already
<nixternal> ogra: edgy is being shipped tot he locos
<nixternal> i believe either 25 or 50 cds
<ogra> RichEd: right, but there was a mail from silbs where she stated that
<nixternal> i placed my order for the Ubuntu Chicago LoCo already
<pygi> nixternal: I thought 500!!!
<ogra> so if LoCos can get them, we should point people to their local one
<RichEd> sbalneav: they have been pushing for purchase through Amazon etc.
<nixternal> 500 total
<nixternal> edubuntu wise there is 25 or 50
<pygi> right
<RichEd> I have a list of suppliers, which we will add to the wiki pages tomorrow
<nixternal>     *
<nixternal>       Ubuntu: PC: 300, AMD64: 50
<nixternal>     *
<pips1> RichEd: Iooks like you are on top of things :-) please mail me that list of suppliers to include on the website... ahh, wiki page works to, we can link to that.
<nixternal>       Kubuntu: PC: 75, AMD64: 25
<nixternal>     *
<nixternal>       Edubuntu: PC: 50
<nixternal> sorry for that
<nixternal> but there it is
<sbalneav> I certainly don't mind buying cd's, so long as we're still producing them with the nice artwork, etc.  There's a HUGE difference in peoples minds between saying "try this, its great", and handing them a professional looking cd, silkscreened + nice cover, vs "try this", on a self burned cd, in a plain white sleeve :)
<RichEd> pips ... I will do a quick & dirty on the wiki ... and you can neaten for the www
<LaserJock> sbalneav: get out your crayon set
<RichEd> note that matt has done some really nice pages on Getting Ubuntu ... on the www.ubuntu.com site (still in staging for tomorrow)
<sbalneav> so we're NOT going to have nice cd's, for edgy, even for sale?
<RichEd> We need to revise our pages to make them easy to understand, and fit into his for linking
<LaserJock> sbalneav: yes they will be for sale
<RichEd> Again, I'll put some pages up on the wiki, and we can neaten for www.edubuntu.org
<ogra> sbalneav: there is cover artwork been done, so i bet we'll have some nice CDs 
<ogra> s/is/has/
<RichEd> yes ... I have the cover photos ... in an email ... not sure how to share them yet
<pips1> good to hear there is cover artwork
<sbalneav> ogra: great news.
* pips1 notes that we managed to neatly arrive at ART topic
<RichEd> Note that a new dedicated person is looking after marketing : Christina .. she is getting up to speed, but is doing a good focussed job
<RichEd> I will make some serious time with her at the next face-to-face meeting ...
<RichEd> We can slip forwards into the next topic: Web Documentation ----
<pips1> Is Christina a Canonical person?
<RichEd> yes. there was one person Chris Kenyon, who has now expaneded into 4 people
<pips1> heh
<highvoltage> that's very good :)
* pips1 can't help but to think gender change again :-)
<RichEd> Each person now has their own new business / new market focus, and ChrisK is the coodinator
<RichEd> So where Chris had major time constraints and distractions, there are now dedicated people.
<RichEd> Back onto web site & documentation:
<RichEd> pips1 and I will be looking seriously at the web site and documentation at UDS ... and then I spend some time with Matt Nuzum (Ubuntu webmaster) at the next meeting. we will tackle an entire site revamp probably in december. pips1 has already made notes of what he thinks is missing.
<ogra> did you register any specs for that i could subscribe to ?
<RichEd> That's next on my to do list :) probably friday 
<pips1> I'm glad this gets a spec :)
<ogra> https://features.launchpad.net/people/ogra/+specs has all my specs  ... i registered some on monday, but they are not fleshed out with wikipages yet
<RichEd> The Ubuntu site is already being reworked, and it is looking very neat and clean. The structure of pages and navigation is more intuitive, and we should be able to fit in with that.
<LaserJock> I registered edubuntu-menus-completion
<RichEd> Between pips1 and myself, we must set up a wiki page where all people here can make comments ... we should be able to give you links at the next meeting.
<ogra> oh, i need to subscribe to that
<ogra> (i mean LaserJock)
<RichEd> We will have a first round of discussions on the web site at UDS ... but the serious stuff will happen with Matt Nuzum a week later.
<RichEd> Community -----------------------
<LaserJock> RichEd: what about the specs coming from community suggestions
<pips1> right...
<RichEd> LaserJock: explain more ?
<RichEd> We are open to all suggestions ...
<LaserJock> RichEd: I thought we were going to get suggestions from a forum and pick 10
<LaserJock> and deliver 5, or something to that effect
<RichEd> Oh .. for features ... I thought you meant web site.
<LaserJock> no
<RichEd> Yes ... any ideas or suggestions are to bve sent to the mail lists = devel or user
<RichEd> Yes ... any ideas or suggestions are to be sent to the mail lists = edubunt-devel or edubuntu-user
<RichEd> At next weeks meeting, I'll open up a discussion of what we think are realist and important
<RichEd> So I will summarize what is being bounced around in the emails. Quite a few are requests for applications. We need still more feature requests ... please
<RichEd> Community -----------------------
<RichEd> Jono Bacon is as passionate about education as we are, and we have together contacted the LoCo groups to ask for a nominated education contact for each territory
<RichEd> We have had a few reponses already ... so that extends our community contacts to people outside of our exiting boundaries.
<RichEd> *existing
<RichEd> There are about 8 people at UDS who want to talk community, and Jono will lead some meetings on this.
<RichEd> As you know, we are keen to bring in people using Kubuntu and Ubuntu in Education to add to our Edubuntu community.
<RichEd> I'll try to get some stats for next week, but I can tell you that our mail list subscribers are growing by a few people each day.
<LaserJock> \o/
<pips1> nice
<RichEd> And speaking of community ... we need the following categories of volunteer if you are keen or know anyone who may be:
<RichEd> 1. User Documentation
<RichEd> = contributors or proof readers ... any sort of help
<RichEd> = HedgeMage will be taking a back seat soon
<RichEd> 2. Artwork
<RichEd> = we'd like to start artwork for feisty sooner than later
<RichEd> = we have Lisa (AliasVegas) but she cannot give enough time and would like some help
<RichEd> 3. Minutes of meetings
<RichEd> = cbx33 is also taking a bit of strain ... and would like to alternate weekly sessions
<RichEd> ^^^ so please mail me if you have bandwidth
<pygi> RichEd: what about me? Ain't I working on User Docs with hedgie? :P
<RichEd> pygi: no offence intended :) HedgeMage just wants to get back into more dev work
<pygi> RichEd: yea, yea, I know that =)
<RichEd> I will mail a call for all of these to the devel and users mail lists ... and we must create a more compelling web page on "how you can get involved"
<pips1> noted
<pygi> RichEd: and finally make organisation better for Handbook
<RichEd> We are hoping that the expansion in community size will be a bigger selection pool
<pygi> This is the second time we have mess in our lines
<pygi> we can be happy we finish it on time
<RichEd> pygi: yes ... 100% ... this is the plan:
<pygi> RichEd: I surely hope so
<pygi> RichEd: folks before told the same =) And they've gotten nowhere :)
<RichEd> willvdl will become responsible for Documentation Manager = coordinator
<RichEd> he is an employee ... so he will *have to* make the time
<RichEd> he will makr sure that;
<pygi> whatever you say
<RichEd> *make sure
<RichEd> 1. there is a process for all documentation requirements
<RichEd> = he is getting this from hedgemage and nixternal
<pips1> and pygi ;-)
<RichEd> pygi ++
<pygi> pips1: ignore me pls :P
<RichEd> 2. that web docs match wiki docs and printed brochures etc.
<pips1> pygi: no way :-P
<RichEd> He is already working with Christina from above
<LaserJock> RichEd: will willvdl be working with the Ubuntu Documentation Team?
<pygi> pips1: o yes dude
<RichEd> LaserJock: yes ... he will be the responsible PM ... so that does not mean he will do the work, but he will need to make sure it is done
<RichEd> He will need to keep track and manage, and ensure there is a Plan and a Plan B
* pips1 thinks that we not only need chieftains, but also indians ;-)
<pygi> !!!
<RichEd> Yes ... he is responsible for making sure it is done ... not making sure other people do it ... so he will need to roll up his sleeves as well
<pips1> :)
<RichEd> So he will bring structure that I think is needed. We have excellent contributors - like pygi ! - but the plan of action needs to be readily availabloe, and not in hard working people's heads only
* pygi thinks he's not worthy of anything since he dissapointed a lot of people because he's not coming to MV :'(
<RichEd> We are too big and complex for JIT (Just in Time) ... and it puts too much pressure on individuals.
* pips1 hugs pygi
<RichEd> pygi: you are well appreciated ... we are disappointred FOR you, not IN you
<RichEd> That's about all from me ... other questions or issues ?
<RichEd> Anyone ?
<pygi> RichEd: heh, we'll be lacking some serious stuff in feisty due to my absence :(
<pygi> nop ^_^
<ajmitch> pygi: don't let not being at MV be an obstacle
<RichEd> pygi: we will hopefully have a way for you to be able to interact across the wire
<ajmitch> there's no reason you can't write up & work on specs outside of MV time, like some of us are doing
<nixternal> pygi: im not gonna make it physically either, but i will be on irc bugging htem every day ;)
<RichEd> Note that the success of Edubuntu moving forwards will also be about adoption issues of Open Source in Education ... it is not just a technical "battle"
<RichEd> So there will be a lot of room for people to help us help our users even after the desktop specs have been written down.
<RichEd> --- well that's me done --- if I carry on, it will just become a ramble --- anything else ?
<pips1> what's the timeline tomorrow for the release?
<LaserJock> Edgy's done, link live Edubuntu!
<LaserJock> *long
<RichEd> pips1: I believe it is usually around 12:00 UTC
<pips1> I meant: around what time do you expect the release announcement hit the wire?
<pips1> ah
<RichEd> answered ?
<pips1> so those wiki pages and site updates should be ready by that time. ok
<pips1> ideally :)
* pips1 can hear the big countdown clock ticking
<RichEd> ideally yes ... as long as we have the downloads page sorted ... it is fine ... that will be the link from the page that ubuntu is pushing
<pips1> understood
<LaserJock> also I don't know if I mentioned this before, but there is a newish "Education and Science" subforum on ubuntuforums.org
<pips1> direct link?
<LaserJock> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=169
<RichEd> yes you did LaserJock ... but is sllipped past ... I must announce it on the ubuntu-education mail list
<RichEd> it slipped <- my fingerz are slipping as well
<LaserJock> it was supposed to be "Science Talk" but I think the forum admins wanted it to be more general
* RichEd waves the gavel
<RichEd> going once ....
<LaserJock> do it, do it! :-)
<RichEd> going twice ....
<RichEd> and on the third wave good night all !
<RichEd> thanks all ...
<pips1> LaserJock: nice action in that forum already...
<pips1> thanks
<pips1> good night all
<RichEd> pips1 ... will be up and available early in the morning ... will look out for mails and pings from you
<pips1> RichEd: I'll update the download links and add the note about LTS and Edgy options for sure
<pips1> I'll ping you when that's done/ready
<pips1> good night!
<RichEd> thanks ... you too
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-10-26
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Nov 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<Cyorxamp> Its a gay meeting!
<Cyorxamp> !ops
<Cyorxamp> Come on!
<Cyorxamp> Your all GAY!
<Cyorxamp> gnomefreak your gay
<Cyorxamp> ban!
<Cyorxamp> +o +o +o +o
<Cyorxamp> +gay +gay +gay +gay 
<Cyorxamp> ok better insult
<Cyorxamp> Ubuntu is GAY
<Cyorxamp> hows that?
<Cyorxamp> ompaul your an op
<Cyorxamp> your gay too
<Cyorxamp> ban me
<ompaul> ehh no
<Cyorxamp> But your gay!
<Cyorxamp> I said you were gay so ban me!
<ompaul> and you sir are a fool 
<Cyorxamp> Yup I am today!
<Cyorxamp> ogra is gay
<Cyorxamp> janc is gay
<Cyorxamp> gnam is gay
<Cyorxamp> gnomefreak is gay
<Cyorxamp> Huahua is gay
<Cyorxamp> ban not kick remember!
<ompaul> you can't have you way all the time
<Cyorxamp> Burgwork your gay!
<Cyorxamp> ompaul, Ok... I'm listening - what do you mean by that exactly?
<ompaul> nul point!
<Cyorxamp> fine... your gay
<Cyorxamp> lamont is gay
<Cyorxamp> MatthewV is gay
<gnomefreak> ompaul: now he knows why we decided not to unban him
<ompaul> na 
<Cyorxamp> lol
<Cyorxamp> I'm trying to make sure I can never come back
<Cyorxamp> Trying to make sure I can never convince myself again that Ubuntu is better than the others
<ompaul> why not save yourself the bother and just go away 
<Cyorxamp> Nah I know I'll be tempted again
<Cyorxamp> So your all gay
<Cyorxamp> Hawkwind! he is an op!
<Cyorxamp> YOUR GAY
* Cyorxamp waits
<ompaul> Oscar Wilde said something like I can resist everything but temptation 
<Cyorxamp> Oh come onnnnn!
<ompaul> no
<Cyorxamp> Well why not?
<ompaul> just get a life
<Cyorxamp> Why keep me here unless u have something to do with me?
<Cyorxamp> If I'm not wanted then just ban me here like you did in #ubuntu
* ompaul is not keeping you here
<ompaul> you are here by choice
<Cyorxamp> Yup
<Cyorxamp> and your gay
<ompaul> your own free will, as it were, unless someone pays you to be whatever it is you are trying to be
<Cyorxamp> ok fine, I need something a little more  -  umm  nastier than gay
<Cyorxamp> You fuck chickens
<ompaul> see, there you are wrong
<Cyorxamp> Hmm, not that nasty
<Cyorxamp> Ok... you fuck grannies!
<Cyorxamp> I dunno whats worse :S
<Cyorxamp> fine the whole list
<Cyorxamp> [psy]  is gay
<Cyorxamp> [PUPPETS] Gonzo is gay
<Cyorxamp> ajmitch is gay
* pips1 is tired
<Cyorxamp> asw is gay
<Cyorxamp> azeem is gay
<Cyorxamp> pips1 is gay
<Cyorxamp> Burgwork is gay
<Cyorxamp> buxy is gay
<Cyorxamp> cjwatson is gay
<Cyorxamp> dAndy is gay
<Cyorxamp> dbo is gya
<Cyorxamp> doko is gay
<Cyorxamp> Ekushey is gay
* Cyorxamp breathes
<Cyorxamp> ephesus is gay
<Cyorxamp> fabbione is gay
<Cyorxamp> FeistyFawn is gay
<ompaul> does someone give you a gold star everything you get kicked from a channel?
<Cyorxamp> finalbeta is gay
<Cyorxamp> lol, nope
<Cyorxamp> finalbeta is gay
<Cyorxamp> GNAM is gay
<Cyorxamp> gnomefreak is well VERY gay
<Cyorxamp> Hawkwind is a fucking prick
<Cyorxamp> and gay
<Cyorxamp> highvoltage is gay
<Cyorxamp> Huahua is gay
<Cyorxamp> ian_brasil is gay
<Cyorxamp> imbrandon is gay
<Cyorxamp> j_ack is gay
<ompaul> so what drives you to this level of absurdity?
<Cyorxamp> JanC is gay
<Cyorxamp> The absolute and total unwaivering egostical shit I have had to put up with from ubuntu ops
<Cyorxamp> jenda is gay
<Cyorxamp> joejaxx is gay
* lupine_85 anally rapes Cyorxamp 
<Cyorxamp> jonathan2 is gay
<lupine_85> cor, that felt good
<Cyorxamp> jeez lupine_85 is VEEERY gay
<Cyorxamp> Nice one :P
<Cyorxamp> Jozo- is gay
<Cyorxamp> lamont is gay
<Cyorxamp> lfittl is gay
* ompaul thinks that Cyorxamp should get out more 
<Cyorxamp> lguerra is gay
<lupine_85> you noticed that too? :)
<Cyorxamp> how very nice
<lupine_85>  /ignore time, methinks
<Cyorxamp> sure go ahead :P
<Cyorxamp> lifeless is gay
<Cyorxamp> lionelp is gay
<Cyorxamp> lupine_85 is VERY gay
<Cyorxamp> mako is gay
<Cyorxamp> MatthewV is gay
<lupine_85> ah, sweet peace and quiet
<Cyorxamp> mbamford is gay
<Cyorxamp> michel is gay
<Cyorxamp> mjg59 is gay
<Cyorxamp> neuralis is gay
<Cyorxamp> nixternal is gay
<Cyorxamp> ompaul gay
<Cyorxamp> ozamosi gay
<Cyorxamp> paulvg gay
<Cyorxamp> gay gay gay
<Cyorxamp> robitaille is GAY
<Cyorxamp> cjwatson is gay too
<Cyorxamp> phanatic is gay
<Cyorxamp> popey is gay
<Cyorxamp> err... zakame is gay
<Cyorxamp> xeros is gay
<Cyorxamp> Whatsisname is gay
<Cyorxamp> very gay... shit name
<Cyorxamp> vuntz is gay
<Cyorxamp> Ubugtu is a bug... a gay bug
<Cyorxamp> tritium is gay
<Cyorxamp> sladen is a bit gay but not to much a lesbian
<Cyorxamp> more of a transvestite
<Cyorxamp> ryanakca is gay
<Cyorxamp> sladen is gay
<Cyorxamp> slomo_ is gay
<Cyorxamp> stgraber is gay
<Cyorxamp> Toadstool gay
<Cyorxamp> come on! YOUR ALL GAY!
<ompaul> why play your game?
<Cyorxamp> It's fun :P
<Cyorxamp> And also... because you ultimately win!
<ompaul> na, its boring
<Cyorxamp> ok your gay
<Cyorxamp> mjg59 is gay
<Cyorxamp> lifeless is gay
<Cyorxamp> smurf is gay
<Cyorxamp> poningru is gay
<Cyorxamp> simira is gay
<Cyorxamp> sladen is gay
<Cyorxamp> RichEd is gay
<Cyorxamp> joejaxx gay
<Cyorxamp> gay gay gay
<Cyorxamp> gay is gay
<Cyorxamp> gaygay is gayer than gay by one gay
<ompaul> and you speak fluent rubbish, you really could put your time to better use, you get one shot at life and this is what you do with it - pretty darn silly methinks
<ompaul> but that is just me
<Cyorxamp> Keybuk, mdz, Amaranth, tritium, ajmitch, crimsun, ogra, CarlK, Seveas, Burgundavia, apokryphos, thoreauputic, nalioth, Madpilot, ompaul, rob, Hobbsee, imbrandon, DBO or gnomefreak!
<Cyorxamp> Your all gay
<poningru> ...
<Cyorxamp> poningru your gay
<poningru> !ops
<Cyorxamp> yeah thats Keybuk, mdz, Amaranth, tritium, ajmitch, crimsun, ogra, CarlK, Seveas, Burgundavia, apokryphos, thoreauputic, nalioth, Madpilot, ompaul, rob, Hobbsee, imbrandon, DBO or gnomefreak!
<Cyorxamp> well done poningru :P
<Cyorxamp> your gay btw
<Cyorxamp> Go pm them all
<Cyorxamp> Get them to ban me :P
<Cyorxamp> well done :P
<Cyorxamp> gay
<joejaxx> Cyorxamp: please eb quiet
<joejaxx> be*
<Cyorxamp> No
<Cyorxamp> your gay
<Cyorxamp> stop being so gay you gaying gaying gayer
<joejaxx> Cyorxamp: your nonsens is not appreciated here
<Cyorxamp> RichEd is gay and so is his bum chum ripp3r
<joejaxx> nonsense*
<Cyorxamp> you cant even spell ffs
<Cyorxamp> and your gay
<Cyorxamp> so ummm gay off
<ompaul> Cyorxamp, you could actually act your age not your shoe size, but frankly I doubt you ever will
<Cyorxamp> ok i need a new word :S
<ripp3r> ompaul i agree, someone needs to +b this asshat
<Cyorxamp> ompaul, What you don't realize is until today whenever I have been in this channel I have been my age and put forward some good arguments
<Cyorxamp> and each and every time its called 'trolling' when it fucking aint
<Cyorxamp> so now i cba to act my age
<Cyorxamp> so your gay
<Cyorxamp> ogra_ is gay
<Cyorxamp> ompaul can +b me if he had the balls
<Cyorxamp> but he is gay!
<ompaul> fool
<Cyorxamp> Yeah well I'm outta options
<lupine_85> until then, do as I do and /ignore :)
<Cyorxamp> lupine_85 is gay
<ompaul> you really don;t know enough or you would never have made that statement
<Cyorxamp> SO veeeery GAY
<ompaul> i.e. you are wrong
<Cyorxamp> ompaul, and you don't know what you even mean by that or you'd explain it to me
<Cyorxamp> But thats not what ubuntu ops do
<Cyorxamp> They don't say anything back
<Cyorxamp> They dont comment
<ompaul> not my role to teach you 
<Cyorxamp> They dont do FUCK ALL
<Cyorxamp> But ban
<Cyorxamp> So do it!
<ompaul> read this very carefully
<ompaul> I would if I could
<ompaul> I can't so I won't
<Cyorxamp> Your an op... so you can
<Cyorxamp> lol #ubuntu-marketing
<Cyorxamp> WHAT marketting!
<Cyorxamp> ffs ubuntu HAS no marketting
<ompaul> you belive what you like - reality bites and you are wrong
<Cyorxamp> ompaul, you don't even have the know how to prove me wrong
<Cyorxamp> you only prove my point by saying absolutely FUCK ALL as usual
<Cyorxamp> ogra is gay
<Cyorxamp> pschulz01 is gay
<Cyorxamp> purserj is gay
<ompaul>  /msg chanserv access #ubuntu-meeting list <--- do that
* ompaul shrugs
<Cyorxamp> profoX` is gay
<profoX`> am not!
<Cyorxamp> YOU ARE!
<Cyorxamp> I saw you bum fuck that boy next door
<Cyorxamp> HIM!
<Cyorxamp> You bum fucked Changlinn
<Cyorxamp> Gay
<woekele> lol
<Cyorxamp> woekele your gay
<woekele> tnx :(
<Cyorxamp> you bum fucked Changlinn
<woekele> lol?
<woekele> what I do?
<Changlinn> bot
<woekele> eh?
<woekele> right :)
<lupine_85> http://www.knitemare.org/cats/cookie.jpg :)
* Changlinn thinks Cyorxamp is a bot
<Cyorxamp> No not a bot
<Cyorxamp> A PERSON :P
<Cyorxamp> and your gay
<Changlinn> idiot?
<woekele> lol, whats with the namecalling
<purserj> I'm thinking Cyorxamp is projecting his own repressed homosexuality on others in a vain attempt to get away from himself
<woekele> anyway, why will edgy+1 be feisty fawn and not funky ferret :)
<lupine_85> I want glum gopher!!!
<Changlinn> sorry claiming everyone is Gay, as an insult, he is 5yo
<Cyorxamp> purserj, not repressed!
<Cyorxamp> gay :P
<Cyorxamp> Changlinn, today I am 5 yes
<lupine_85> ...couldn't have guessed...
* ripp3r wonders when they are gonna have ferocious feline 
<lupine_85> s/he's a plusnetter
<Cyorxamp> yup
<Cyorxamp> the entirety of plus.net is banned from #ubuntu
<lupine_85> ah well, at least their abuse dept. is up to scratch
<Cyorxamp> guess who did that?
<profoX`> hurray lets play: feed the troll ^^
<Cyorxamp> Your all gay
<lupine_85> is this channel archived on teh intarwebs anywhere? :)
<Cyorxamp> profoX` bum fucked woekele with a red hot cock
<woekele> :D
<Cyorxamp> yup it is
<Hawkwind> lupine_85: Yes it is
<Cyorxamp> you all get to see what an ass I have been on a google search
<Cyorxamp> yippy!
<lupine_85> could I have the linky to stick in the abuse email pleeeeease? :)
<woekele> /ignore Cyorxamp!*@*
<woekele> oops
<profoX`> Cyorxamp: like, is that you ? http://ubuntuforums.org/customprofilepics/profilepic68311_1.gif
<Cyorxamp> thats me!
<Cyorxamp> Well done :P
<Hawkwind> Will everyone please ignore him.  Ya'll are only making things worse
<woekele> he looks pretty cool
<Changlinn> heheh
<Cyorxamp> hehe
<Cyorxamp> Well I am... but the ops arnt
<Cyorxamp> So this is pay back
<Cyorxamp> A very childish attempt at least
<Cyorxamp> btw your all gay
<woekele> is he still talking? I wanna know if my ignore works.
<MatthewV> woekele, it does
<numist> ok, this is silly
<woekele> ok, it works ^^
<Cyorxamp> numist it is
<Cyorxamp> get someone to ban me!
<Cyorxamp> because your GAY!
<numist> *sigh*
<Cyorxamp> infact! 
<Cyorxamp> you know what would be better?
<gnomefreak> numist: #ubuntu-bugs as well
<Cyorxamp> getting k-lined :P
<numist> great
<Cyorxamp> gnomefreak come on!
<numist> gnomefreak: where are the normaly #ubuntu ops?
<Cyorxamp> anyone know a freenode op?
<numist> I need to talk with one of them, I'd rather not step on too many toes
<gnomefreak> we dont have access to all channels :(
<Hawkwind> numist: They aren't around at the moment
* gnomefreak op
<Hawkwind> numist: We are ops
<numist> gnomefreak: do you authorize me to quiet him?
<gnomefreak> yes
<Hawkwind> numist: Yes
<numist> Hawkwind: I didnt see you on the list
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+o numist]  by ChanServ
<Cyorxamp> come on Hawkwind and gnomefreak... ban me!
<Cyorxamp> Your gay!
<Cyorxamp> yey!
<Cyorxamp> Ban not kick!
<Hawkwind> numist: But he's got proxies so he'll just return
<Cyorxamp> and a good ban
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+b %*!*@*bbplus.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] ]  by numist
<Cyorxamp> I can get around weak bans
<Cyorxamp> hmm... try again
<Cyorxamp> theres a ]  at the end :P
<numist> hah pwned
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+b %*!*@*bbplus.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net]  by numist
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-b %*!*@*bbplus.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] ]  by numist
<Fujitsu> numist: -bugs too, please.
<Fujitsu> (thanks a lot!)
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-o numist]  by ChanServ
<LjL> i think he's trying to get plus.net banned from as many places as possible, so that people will complain.
<pygi> LjL: you are right ^_^
<pygi> And long time no see ^_^
<lupine_85> down with plusnet ;)
<LjL> heh
<Changlinn> send his isp an email to their abuse address abuse@plus.net
<numist> I'll hang out for a while.  if there are problems, have an #ubuntu op hilight me
<profoX`> if he uses proxy's that's not so easy to do..
<gnomefreak> numist: i will
<lupine_85> 1x abuse email sent :)
<LjL> he doesn't /whois anymore... for some reason =)
<lupine_85> like it matters
<lupine_85> I've got the #whois in my IRC logz :p
<lupine_85> and s/he was on plusnet, ergo they probably keep everything just in case the government asks for it at some point,  anyway...
<lupine_85> ah well, bed time for me
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+o numist]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-b %*!*@*bbplus.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net]  by numist
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-o numist]  by ChanServ
<nixternal> [18:07:07]  <Cyorxamp> nixternal is gay
<nixternal> damn, now i gotta confess i guess
<numist> I'm going to assume that you guys are ok now.  msg me if anything comes up
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-meeting.log
<GNAM> @schedule rome
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 07 Nov 21:00: Technical Board
<JonathanFerguson> @schedule Melbourne
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Melbourne: 08 Nov 07:00: Technical Board
<YogSothoth> Hi
<YogSothoth> Happy 6.10 Release! :-D
<tonyyarusso> Whee!
<YogSothoth> I just had to reinstall 6.06 few days ago so I'll wait to reinstall again with 6.10. Or can I do a dis-upgrade to update from 6.04 to 6.10?
<tonyyarusso> Should be able to dist-upgrade fine.
<dholbach> or use     gksu "update-manager -c"
<cjwatson> YogSothoth: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdgyUpgrades
<cjwatson> rather, http://help.ubuntu.com/community/EdgyUpgrades
<YogSothoth> thanks!
<YogSothoth> What's gksu?
<cjwatson> privilege escalation wrapper for the desktop
<cjwatson> man gksu
<cjwatson> or apt-cache show gksu, for that matter
<highvoltage> dholbach: shouldn't it be gksudo on Ubuntu?
<cjwatson> highvoltage: gksu acts as gksudo now
<YogSothoth> but I can use sudo. ie. sudo nautilus works. What's the difference?
<cjwatson> YogSothoth: sudo will prompt on a terminal if it needs a password; gksu will prompt via a graphical dialog
<highvoltage> cjwatson: ok, thanks for the tup
<highvoltage> *tip
* dholbach hugs highvoltage
* highvoltage hugs dholbach back
<dholbach> highvoltage: http://photos.jonathancarter.co.za/udsparis2006/800_PICT0136 is so cool :)
<YogSothoth> This page has not been updated for 6.10? http://www.ubuntu.com/desktop
<YogSothoth> cjwatson, oh ok! Marvellous :) It's what I needed
<highvoltage> dholbach: hehe
<cjwatson> highvoltage: it's controlled by /apps/gksu/sudo-mode in gconf
<ajmitch> dholbach: haha
<YogSothoth> Wow the Distribution Upgrade app is very clean!
<dholbach> YogSothoth: mvo will be delighted to hear
<YogSothoth> dholbach, who is mvo? Is he the app maintainer?
<YogSothoth> That is just understable and usable. It just does the thing, but lets you know what it does. Smart. http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/7051/ubuntudistupgradeto610ac0.png
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-10-27
<airjump> hello
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-10-28
<gnomefreak> @schedule new_york
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/New_York: 07 Nov 15:00: Technical Board
<nixternal> come on gnomefreak, get to chicago!
<gnomefreak> lol
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-10-22
<kraut> moin
<davmor2> Jo No Bacon :)
<zul> @schedule montreal
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 23 Oct 11:00: Server Team | 23 Oct 12:00: Kernel Team | 30 Oct 12:00: Kernel Team | 08 Nov 10:00: Community Development Team
<harrisony> @schedule sydney
<ubotu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 24 Oct 01:00: Server Team | 24 Oct 02:00: Kernel Team | 31 Oct 03:00: Kernel Team | 09 Nov 02:00: Community Development Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-10-23
<kraut> moin
<avatar_> @schedule amsterdam
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: 23 Oct 17:00: Server Team | 23 Oct 18:00: Kernel Team | 30 Oct 17:00: Kernel Team | 08 Nov 16:00: Community Development Team
<juliux> morning mvo
<mvo> hey juliux!
<mvo> juliux: I think I hadn't had the chance to congrat you yet for the very nice ubucon event
<juliux> mvo, thanks
<juliux> mvo, can you send me your slides? we want upload them on the website
<mvo> juliux: sure
<juliux> mvo, thanks
<pferrari> @schedule Zurich
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 23 Oct 17:00: Server Team | 23 Oct 18:00: Kernel Team | 30 Oct 17:00: Kernel Team | 08 Nov 16:00: Community Development Team
<zul> @schedule montreal
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 23 Oct 11:00: Server Team | 23 Oct 12:00: Kernel Team | 30 Oct 12:00: Kernel Team | 08 Nov 10:00: Community Development Team
<soren> @schedule Copenhagen
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Copenhagen: 23 Oct 17:00: Server Team | 23 Oct 18:00: Kernel Team | 30 Oct 17:00: Kernel Team | 08 Nov 16:00: Community Development Team
<soren> Oh, server team meeting! That sounds very interesting!
<abogani> @schedule Rome
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 23 Oct 17:00: Server Team | 23 Oct 18:00: Kernel Team | 30 Oct 17:00: Kernel Team | 08 Nov 16:00: Community Development Team
<penguim> @schedule Brazil
<penguim> @schedule Bahia
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Bahia: 23 Oct 12:00: Server Team | 23 Oct 13:00: Kernel Team | 30 Oct 13:00: Kernel Team | 08 Nov 12:00: Community Development Team
<nealmcb> @schedule denver
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Denver: 23 Oct 09:00: Server Team | 23 Oct 10:00: Kernel Team | 30 Oct 10:00: Kernel Team | 08 Nov 08:00: Community Development Team
<nealmcb> upcoming agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Server Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Oct 16:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 30 Oct 16:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 08 Nov 15:00 UTC: Community Development Team
<zul> hey
<mathiaz> Hi everyone !
<soren> Hey, Mathiaz!
<sommer> hey
<penguim> hi all
<ScottK> Hello
 * jdstrand waves
<lionel> hi
<zul> hello
<mathiaz> ok. So let's get this started.
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 16:01. The chair is mathiaz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mathiaz> Short agenda for today: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
<mathiaz> Last meeting notes are here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20071009
<soren> There weren't any?
<soren> Action points, that is.
<mathiaz> soren: there were two small ones for me.
<mathiaz> soren: I did them IIRC
<soren> mathiaz: Oh, you're right.
<soren> Something about e-mail fridge-devel to sort something out?
<mathiaz> soren: when do you think you'll start the mta debate on debian-devel ?
<soren> mathiaz: Tomorrow. I meant to do it today, but I got tied up.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Lessons learned from gutsy about Xen
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lessons learned from gutsy about Xen
<mathiaz> zul: ^^
<zul> on the phone just a sec
<mathiaz> ok.. So while waiting, anyone upgrade their server to gutsy ?
<zul> ok im back
<zul> sorry
<zul> ok basically xen in gutsy was a mess compared to feisty and Im looking for help this time around
<mathiaz> zul: what's the current state of xen in gutsy ?
<zul> mathiaz: people were having problems loading their domUs and other problems
<ScottK> mathiaz: I upgraded one of mail mail servers around beta timeframe with no issues.  I plan on doing production servers this weekend.
<zul> i emailed a list of ideas for hardy to rick and we can go from their at uds
<mathiaz> zul: is this because there wasn't enough testing done during gutsy development phase ?
<mathiaz> zul: ok. Is there a spec registered about this ?
<zul> mathiaz: true thats part of it
<zul> mathiaz: not yet i have to talk to rick more probably
<zul> there is a session a uds about this
<mathiaz> zul: will you be at uds ?
<zul> no I have sent my ideas to rick already ill be listening in though
<nealmcb> zul: what sorts of suggestions do you have?
<mathiaz> zul: ok. If there is a session scheduled, there is probably a blueprint associated with it.
<mathiaz> zul: it may be worth creating the wiki page and add your ideas there.
<zul> nealmcb: better tools for creating guests, not just me working on it
<mathiaz> zul: explain what was wrong with gutsy and what should be done about it.
<mathiaz> zul: are you the only one doing xen work/developpement in Ubuntu ?
<zul> mathiaz: basically it was a switch in where were we getting the sources from and the lack of people testing ti
<zul> mathiaz: yes i am
<zul> so another set of eyes would be good, if it helps Ill send an email to the ubuntu-server ml
<avatar_> zul: you'r not in #ubuntu-xen ?
<mathiaz> zul: I think that's a good idea.
<zul> avatar_: not regularily
<zul> ok so I will send an email when I get home tonight
<mathiaz> avatar_: is there a mailing list for ubuntu-xen ?
<zul> no there isnt
<avatar_> mathiaz: afaik just an irc channel
<mathiaz> zul: ok. It seems that there isn't any spec for xen.
<mathiaz> zul: could create a wiki page about XenSupportInHardy ?
<zul> mathiaz: true, I can do that no problem
<nealmcb> zul: what sorts of assistance would be most helpful for the xen effort - what skill sets?
<zul> nealmcb: packaging testing documentation
<zul> especially for amd64 and windows guests
<mathiaz> zul: that would help a lot if you'd listed what is needed in the wiki page.
<nealmcb> thanks for doing so much by yourself - sounds like we should be able to find folks with those skills....
<zul> I could start an XenTeam wiki page as well
<avatar_> i would like help testing, but amd64 or windows guests requires me to buy new hardware...
<mathiaz> [ACTION] zul will create a wiki page XenSupportInHardy to describe what is needed for xen
<MootBot> ACTION received:  zul will create a wiki page XenSupportInHardy to describe what is needed for xen
<zul> avatar_: ditto :)
<mathiaz> zul: A team may be a good idea in mid-term.
<mathiaz> zul: let's start by figuring out what needs to be done for hardy
<zul> mathiaz: sure Ill get started on it tonight
<zul> mathiaz: i have a rough idea in my head I just need to write it down
<mathiaz> zul: once people will be interested in it, we could consider the creation of a team
<penguim> +1
<mathiaz> zul: excellent !
<mathiaz> zul: meanwhile, I think you can use the ubuntu-server mailing list to discuss it.
<nealmcb> what was the change in xen sources - from where to where?
<zul> nealmcb: dom0 sources from redhat to novell
<nealmcb> ty
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap
<mathiaz> As you may know, the hardy archive is now opened.
<mathiaz> Which means that we're in merge phase.
<soren> \o/ Merge-o-rama!
<mathiaz> While doing this, it would be great to forward deltas to Debian via their BTS
<mathiaz> using https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Debian/Usertagging
<ScottK> As long as they are applicable.
<mathiaz> sommer: how is the server guide review going ?
<sommer> mathiaz: it's coming along... still working through the official docs
<sommer> I also updated, some of the wiki pages I've contributed to, for Gutsy
<sommer> at this point basically the ones listed on the Server Team RoadMap page
<mathiaz> I've also noticed you've been working on a macro for the wiki to indicate which release is relevant for wiki pages.
<mathiaz> sommer: Are they tagged in the wiki ?
<mathiaz> sommer: May we could create a link to the list of page relevant to the ServerTeam category.
<sommer> mathiaz: sounds like a good idea... they currently aren't tagged except for CategoryDocumentation
<mathiaz> sommer: the idea being that we can point new contributors to the page when they show interest in server documentation.
<sommer> should we post to the doc ml for additional help?
<mathiaz> sommer: hum... I don't know.
<ScottK> sommer: One documentation point you might look into while you are reviewing is that I got the fix for Bug #150067 uploaded late in the Gutsy process, but the resulting config file change isn't documented.  It'd be useful if there was an appropriate place to put that.
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 150067 in courier "Courier 0.56 has broken SSL support" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/150067
<mathiaz> ScottK: is there a way to tag bugs fixed that need documentation update ?
 * ScottK has no idea.
<ScottK> I'm only thinking about that one because I uploaded the fix and dealt with a bug filed today where the only problem was they didn't know about the setting.
<sommer> there is a list of bugs pertaining to the official docs
<mathiaz> ScottK: yes. It's a general issue actually.
<mathiaz> the mysql bug database has such a workflow.
<mathiaz> you can see when fixes are committed, then documented.
<mathiaz> It may be interesting to be able to mark bugs that need a documentation review (with an appropriate tag for example).
<nealmcb> mathiaz: and then remove the tag when it is documented?
<mathiaz> nealmcb: yes.
<nealmcb> sounds useful - a link to a mysql example would be handy
<mathiaz> Anyone has another example of such a situation ?
<soren> I know I have one, but I forget what it is :)
<sommer> the evms issue everyone seems to have?
<sommer> or is that one documented somewhere?  I just recall several questions about it.
<mathiaz> sommer: I think that was put in the release notes.
<sommer> ah
<mathiaz> sommer: update-manager should take care of it.
<mathiaz> sommer: but not everyone uses update-manager to upgrade to gutsy.
<sommer> so if a bug requires documentation is the process to update the official docs, or a wiki page?
<mathiaz> sommer: well - it depends where it needs to be fixed.
<sommer> mathiaz: okay
<mathiaz> sommer: if it's in the official documentation, I think that a new bug should be filed against the documentation package
<mathiaz> sommer: otherwise, the wiki page should be updated.
<mathiaz> This is usually what I do whith the AppArmor package and User guide.
<sommer> cool sounds good to me
<mathiaz> The problem is that most developper don't know which wiki page on help.u.c needs to be updated.
<nealmcb> sending an example of the mysql workflow to the doc team might help - they may have similar ideas
<mathiaz> I think this should be raised with the ubuntu-doc team.
<mathiaz> I'll send an email about this.
<nealmcb> cool
<mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz will send an email to ubuntu-doc about bugs and documentation update.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz will send an email to ubuntu-doc about bugs and documentation update.
<mathiaz> ScottK: I'll give your courrier bug as an example.
<mathiaz> If someone else has another example, let me know.
<mathiaz> nealmcb: what's the state with the factoids ?
<ScottK> mathiaz: Thanks.
<nealmcb> mathiaz: sorry - distracte - I need to get back to them!!
<mathiaz> nealmcb: did you send an email to ubuntu-server with your proposal ?
<nealmcb> not yet.  I've got some fleshed out on the page, but want to finish that first
<mathiaz> nealmcb: ok.
<mathiaz> As you may know, the Ubuntu Developer Summit will start next week
<mathiaz> with a BarCamp this coming Weekend.
<soren> *cough* FOSSCamp *cough*
<mathiaz> A list of blueprints will be discussing for Hardy can be found at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server
<mathiaz> soren: hum - it was renamed ?
<soren> Er.. no?
<soren> :)
<nealmcb> that's the name - Fosscamp
<soren> http://www.fosscamp.org/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.fosscamp.org/
<mathiaz> soren: hum... ok.
<soren> No biggie.
<soren> :)
<mathiaz> So if you wanna get involve in the discussion, the blueprints and their associated wiki page are the place to look at.
<mathiaz> Is there anything else ?
<nealmcb> will the schedule at http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/uds-boston-2007/2007-10-29/index.html  point to the blueprints?
<mathiaz> nealmcb: it should
<Keybuk> nealmcb: it already does
<nealmcb> In the past I remember it being hard to find out about some topics
<nealmcb> Keybuk: hmmm - the titles don't seem to be links - ahh - some are
<Keybuk> they're links if they have a little note icon next to them
<Keybuk> if they're not, then the spec doesn't exist in LP yet
<nealmcb> I'd just encourage folks to get something in both lp and the wiki - it helps a lot with context :-)
<Keybuk> I've been doing just that
<nealmcb> :-)
<mathiaz> Ok. It's time to wrap up.
<mathiaz> Next meeting in two weeks, same time, same place ?
<soren> Er.. We might be busy at that point?
<soren> AllHands, you know..
<nealmcb> well, not everyone knows :-)
<soren> Sorry, no :) It was for mathiaz :)
<soren> Let's shoot for two week, same time, same place.
<soren> We'll work it out.
<mathiaz> Alright - then.
<mathiaz> Thanks all and happy merging !
<nealmcb> but I met Lamont in person at the Colorado gutsy party, and heard about it...  a canonical meeting...
 * nealmcb waves to lamont
<sommer> thanks all
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:57.
<nealmcb> mathiaz: thanks!
<nealmcb> back to class, now, folks....  and thanks to soren for the ubuntu open week session yesterday in  #ubuntu-classroom
<nealmcb> :-)
<soren> \o/
<soren> ;)
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kernel Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 30 Oct 16:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 08 Nov 15:00 UTC: Community Development Team
<BenC> Hello everyone
<BenC> Unfortunately, most of the kernel team is either not present, or working hard on post-gutsy issues, or UDS planning
<BenC> I'll open the floor for anything from the community
<BenC> And if there is nothing, then I'll end the meeting :)
<ogasawara> BenC: just curious if there is any specific area you want my to focus my triaging?
<ogasawara> BenC: for now i'm just trying to cut down the number of New and Unassigned bugs for 2.6.20 and 2.6.22
<BenC> ogasawara: Our main problem has been unanswered bugs, which gives people the impression we don't care (and we really do)
<abogani> BenC: Are there plan for change security model to "Posix file capabilities" ?
<BenC> abogani: not that I'm aware of...that's a decision for security/server teams
<zul> BenC: fyi ive already started forward porting the xen tree again
<BenC> in general the kernel team doesn't make policy decisions that affect userspace that broadly...we follow what the distro decides as a whole
<BenC> zul: good luck :)
<zul> BenC: yeah thanks..
<zul> 2.6.24 right?
<BenC> as of right now, that's the plan
<BenC> wont be decided until next week at UDS
<zul> im assuming 2.6.24 though
<BenC> as of right now, .23 and (virtual).24 are the same thing :)
<zul> true
<zul> 2.6.23 would be easier for me
<BenC> ogasawara: how are things coming along with the current bug lists?
<BenC> ogasawara: also, now that gutsy is released, it may be best to not spend too much time on 2.6.20
<ogasawara> BenC:  so obviously there are lots of "New" bugs that still need to be processed, but for the most part things are moving fairly smoothly
<ogasawara> BenC: was curious if this might be a good forum to bring up specific bugs I think you guys should take a look at?
<ogasawara> BenC: or should I just hit you guys up on #kernel
<BenC> ogasawara: It would be a good forum, but considering most of us aren't here, I'm on a conf call while doing this little bit, it's just not a good day for it :)
 * ogasawara nods :)
<BenC> ogasawara: another good point would be to make good use of "Wont Fix" in released kernels
<BenC> I think most of the bugs fall into this category right now
<ogasawara> BenC: yah, I've already been marking a lot of these
<BenC> ogasawara: did you want me to schedule a kernel-team session with you at UDS?
<ogasawara> BenC: yah, was just about to ask you that
<BenC> or will a OOB meeting at the pub after hours do? :)
<ogasawara> BenC:  at the pub would be perfect
<ogasawara> BenC: actually, bdmurray and I have been compiling a short list of questions for you that can totally be addressed over a beer or two
<BenC> excellent, favorite kind of meetings
<BenC> Anything else before I cut the meeting?
<ogasawara> BenC: nope, I'm good.
<zul> none here
<BenC> Ok, thanks everyone
<abogani> BenC: Thank you!
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 30 Oct 16:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 08 Nov 15:00 UTC: Community Development Team
<Keybuk> mdz, mjg59: No TB tonight?
<mjg59> I thought we decided to skip it, given UDS?
<Keybuk> did we
<Keybuk> it's a good decision :p
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-10-24
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 24 Oct 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu Team | 30 Oct 16:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 31 Oct 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu Team | 07 Nov 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu Team | 08 Nov 15:00 UTC: Community Development Team
<MacSlow> Greetings everybody!
<kraut> moin
<MacSlow> hi kraut
<kraut> hi MacSlow
<flint> ogra, Is there and Edubuntu meeting on this channel soon?
<flint> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 24 Oct 20:00: Edubuntu Team | 30 Oct 16:00: Kernel Team | 31 Oct 12:00: Edubuntu Team | 07 Nov 20:00: Edubuntu Team | 08 Nov 15:00: Community Development Team
<ogra> flint, 20:00 UTC
<flint> @schedule New York
<ubotu> Schedule for America/New_York: 24 Oct 16:00: Edubuntu Team | 30 Oct 12:00: Kernel Team | 31 Oct 08:00: Edubuntu Team | 07 Nov 15:00: Edubuntu Team | 08 Nov 10:00: Community Development Team
<flint> ogra, thanks
 * asac waves
<calc> hi
<asac> @time
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: October 24 2007, 15:00:01 - Next meeting: Edubuntu Team in 4 hours 59 minutes
<evand> hi
<ArneGoetje> hi
<cjwatson> good afternoon
<bryce> morning
<asac> hmm can we get our meetings in this channel on the fridge?
<cjwatson> doko_,lool,seb128: ping
<seb128> cjwatson: hi
 * lool w00t
<cjwatson> if somebody would like to volunteer as secretary to get our meetings onto the Fridge, I would welcome that
 * asac has no idea _how_ to do that ... but would volunteer
<cjwatson> I have no idea how either, which is why I'm asking :-)
<lool> I think there's an ics for the fridge and there's another one for our meetings, perhaps people maintaining the fridge could use it?
<cjwatson> I suspect it involves mailing fridge-devel
<doko_> pong
<asac> cjwatson: i will figure out ;)
<asac> is it worth an ACTION? :)
<cjwatson> it is now, I'll note it
<asac> ok
<lool> asac: Just in case that's useful, http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event/ical and http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=15dh3ig0tj98ot7pchdqrvl09g%40group.calendar.google.com
<cjwatson> so, I don't see any agenda items from folks; anything to raise, or are we saving it all for our upcoming meeting marathons?
<asac> save +1
<cjwatson> I mainly wanted to take the opportunity to talk to people a bit about fosscamp and uds before we all set off
<cjwatson> for veterans, FOSSCamp is new; for new people, everything is new
<evand> given the past two UDS, should we expect the VoIP sessions to not be saved again?  I'm debating going out and buying a voice recorder just in case.
<cjwatson> I don't think you should rely on getting voice recordings
<cjwatson> a voice recorder is an option, though I would recommend being more religious about making sure every session has a secretary at the start
<cjwatson> we have learned from last time and will be presenting a launchpad intro in a plenary session at the start, and I hope printed sheets as well
<evand> that is my intention, but even with good notes I often wish I remembered *exactly* what someone said
<asac> about launchpad ... i am not sure if i subscribed myself on launchpad for attending uds ... how can i figure out if i am now subscribed?
<cjwatson> asac: that's a good point
<cjwatson> https://launchpad.net/sprints/uds-boston-2007
<cjwatson> there is an "Attendees" expander
<asac> ah  ... i really did it;)
<cjwatson> (which I'm not in, *cough*)
<asac> lol
<cjwatson> please follow my example and register your attendance if you haven't already ;-)
<bryce> oops, me either
<cjwatson> I think the scheduling frankenstein we're using actually has you all hardcoded as attending, but please register anyway to avoid relying on it
<bryce> how are blueprints getting decided for the agenda?
<asac> cjwatson: i know i came up with it lates ... but is there still a slot in the core schedule for application-qa-community
<asac> (no idea if it matters at all)
<cjwatson> I'll finish talking about fosscamp (briefly) and then move onto UDS
<cjwatson> as I think you've all been told, FOSSCamp is an ad-hoc conference to help improve communication with upstreams
<cjwatson> the scheduling will happen on the day, by means of a whiteboard or post-it notes or similar low-tech
<cjwatson> please come with an informal list of things you want to discuss with people, and make sure to grab schedule slots early
<cjwatson> there's a list of whom Canonical has sponsored to attend at https://wiki.canonical.com/UdsCambridgeSponsorships (under BarCamp)
<cjwatson> (since the naming changed during planning)
<cjwatson> if you were responsible for inviting somebody, please make sure to take advantage of that and talk with them :-)
<cjwatson> otherwise, it should be lower-pressure than UDS, and a good opportunity to ramp up, not to mention figuring out what your upstreams are doing by way of input into UDS
<cjwatson> OK, so the 10000-foot view of UDS scheduling
<cjwatson> we have a core schedule and an automatic schedule
<lool> cjwatson: I see Julien Cristau listed on the page, but I met him IRL last week and he never heard of the event; is this the same Cambridge?
<cjwatson> lool: he's on for UDS, not FOSSCamp
<cjwatson> lool: if he didn't hear about it, that's unfortunate, check with clan
<lool> Ok, I will
<cjwatson> the core schedule is what we want to make sure gets discussed, and is scheduled with some care by hand
<cjwatson> (in the past we had problems with important things getting bitten by autoscheduler bugs, hence this practice)
<cjwatson> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/uds-boston-2007/ in the unlikely event that you haven't already seen it
<cjwatson> we can still make changes to the core schedule, so if there's something important you want, mail me the details, preferably with a spec already registered in Launchpad
<cjwatson> however, the autoscheduler will be used to fill in the gaps
<cjwatson> specs that are proposed and accepted for uds-boston-2007, that have a priority set, and that have status New or Discussion (phew) will be considered for scheduling
<cjwatson> (I may have missed out a condition or two there, so if it breaks, come to me)
<cjwatson> obviously this is dependent on the necessary people being available in some slot
<cjwatson> try not to make me "participation essential" for meetings as otherwise it'll probably never get scheduled :-)
<cjwatson> however, there is actually a fair bit of room in the platform track
<lool> Are we to set ourselves participation essential or is the person motivating the spec supposed to mark the important people as such?
<cjwatson> so yes, there is space for more sessions
<cjwatson> lool: I *believe* that the autoscheduler will consider the assignee and the drafter as implicitly essential
<asac> cjwatson: ok ill mail you about the application qa thing then
<cjwatson> but if you think you really need to be at something, then yes, feel free to mark yourself as participation essential
<cjwatson> the semantic there is "this spec probably can't be properly sorted out without this person"
<lool> Ok, thanks
<cjwatson> any further questions about the next week?
<ArneGoetje> so, should I register specs for each topic I sent to you for the i18n round table session?
<cjwatson> ArneGoetje: it may be appropriate to do so after the roundtable discussion, and then they can go onto the agenda for the next day
<cjwatson> the colloquial term you'll hear for this is "breakout sessions"
<ArneGoetje> cjwatson: ok
<bryce> I had marked some existing X specs for this UDS a while back, but I'm not seeing any of them here.  Should I just go ahead and create new specs for them?
<cjwatson> bryce: mail me a list and I'll look into it
<bryce> ok
<cjwatson> bear in mind that the schedule in ~scott is just the core schedule
<cjwatson> the automatic schedule stuff will be filled in first thing each morning
<bryce> it's not showing up on sprints/uds-boston-2007 either
<cjwatson> ok, definitely mail me
<cjwatson> next: roundtables
<cjwatson> I have two confirmed roundtables, two further ideas, and five slots in total
<cjwatson> the roundtable sessions are 45-minute sessions that aren't there to produce specs, but to talk through a relatively large topic and come up with ideas for specific plans of attack
<cjwatson> or even just "how could we improve all this mess in future"-type stuff
<cjwatson> the two I have confirmed are internationalisation (arne) and CD size control (doko)
<cjwatson> the two maybes are bug reporting improvements and derivatives; I'd welcome somebody to chair those, though I'll probably chair one myself
<cjwatson> any more ideas for things that could benefit from a fairly large number of people?
<cjwatson> (don't say "paintball")
<cjwatson> for those who were in Sevilla, this is sort of an evolution of what we were calling "forums" then
<cjwatson> ok, if you think of anything, please mail me or talk to me at FOSSCamp about it
<cjwatson> the last thing I have is that some people (particularly newcomers) have asked for training sessions, and we're planning to fit those in at allhands
<ArneGoetje> question: do we need to register ourselves for sessions we want to attend or do we just walk in whatever interests us?
<cjwatson> ArneGoetje: in RFC-speak, you SHOULD register but MAY walk in
<ArneGoetje> cjwatson: where to register?
<cjwatson> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/<specname>/+subscribe
<ArneGoetje> ah...
 * ArneGoetje is not familiar with this sytem yet...
<asac> cjwatson: maybe you can give us (new ones) an idea about all-hands as well? what kind of work? do we expect to happen there?
<cjwatson> registration means you'll automatically get mail about wiki page updates following the session on which you may want to comment, which can be useful
<cjwatson> asac: ok, fair question
<cjwatson> AllHands is Canonical's yearly whole-company meeting; individual teams see each other reasonably frequently but it's not often that we meet other parts of the company
<cjwatson> so its purposes include:
<cjwatson>  * learning about what other parts of the company are doing (which has an effect on what we do, even if it's not obvious at times; it is helpful to be aware of it)
<cjwatson>  * meetings about projects that are commercially-sensitive
<cjwatson>  * training sessions, perhaps on things that cross teams (Bazaar, Python, Launchpad, Landscape, etc.)
<cjwatson>  * induction for new staff, you know the sort of thing that happens at a real company :-)
<cjwatson>  * social interaction; it is much easier to work with people when you've chatted with them face to face
<evand>  * paintball? ;)
<simira> :)
<cjwatson> I'm sure there'll be some fun as well, yes :-)
<cjwatson> the agenda so far is on the wiki, so please go and look
<simira> I'm so sorry I can't come to the uds :( Hope to be with you guys next year
<evand> so is this going to be similiar to UDS in that we might not be scheduled for a meeting but we're welcome to sit in on them?
<cjwatson> yes, indeed generally encouraged if you aren't otherwise busy
<cjwatson> if in doubt, feel free to ask
<evand> ok
<cjwatson> there might be some private sessions but the worst that happens is that somebody apologises and tells you to go away :-)
<evand> haha
<cjwatson> and the *really* last thing I have is to remind people that tomorrow is a free day off for the Canonical distro team
<cjwatson> since we'll all be travelling and then working hard for quite a while
<seb128> \o/
<ArneGoetje> good... need some time to pack my things. :)
<cjwatson> me too
<cjwatson> Oh, would anyone like to be a platform representative on some QA team tracks?
<cjwatson> they have asked for somebody to help review technical plans
<cjwatson> doesn't have to be a single person
<slangasek> sounds interesting
<seb128> cjwatson: I'm happy to go to QA sessions
<cjwatson> excellent; in particular they have some automatic testing work that's going to bleed over into things we do
<cjwatson> OK, if I don't get round to explicitly scheduling you guys for it, please go along as you have time
<seb128> ok
<evand> I'll be in the automatic testing meeting for sure
<cjwatson> right, sounds like that's a wrap, so adjourned. Bonne voyage!
<cjwatson> and see you all in Boston :-)
<slangasek> see y'all in Cambridge :)
<asac> see you all in boston :)
<asac> thanks
<evand> safe travels to all
<seb128> cjwatson: thanks
<evand> thanks
<ArneGoetje> thanks
<bryce> cya all!
<ArneGoetje> cjwatson: BTW: when we arrive at the Hotel, do we have some scheduled meeting time, or do we just check in ourselves and look who is there already?
<evand> ArneGoetje: I'll let cjwatson reply as well, but my experience has always been that the first night is there to get settled in and hang out.  So you check in and look for familiar faces (or announce yourself on IRC if you're new)
<simira> cjwatson: have a nice day off, and a nice trip. :)
<cjwatson> ArneGoetje: yes, what evand said. There are usually folks around in the lobby or the bar, but failing that, get a head-start on the jetlag :-)
<ArneGoetje> cjwatson: ok, I'll try... with 13 hours time difference that's tough. :)
<evand> yay, finally no jet lag
<calc> 13h ouch
<ArneGoetje> BTW: do we have a special IRC channel or do we just use the usual ones?
<heno> meh, doesn't look like the QA meeting is o the Fridge schedule
<heno> but I take it the chan is free
<simira> heno, how are you?
<liw> I see no objections
<liw> heno, shall we start?
<heno> hey, simira :)
<simira> I see a liw also!
<liw> hi, simira
<simira> hi :) when did you convert to ubuntu?
 * pedro_ waves
 * ogasawara is here
<simira> well, have a nice meeting, I'm heading home for dinner
 * stgraber too
<liw> simira, http://liw.iki.fi/liw/log/2007-09.html#20070924b -- exactly one month ago
<evand> ArneGoetje: there's usually a #uds-boston or some such channel.
 * bdmurray is lurking in the shadows
<heno> ok, let's start
<liw> shall I chair? heno? stgraber?
<simira> liw: wow, grats!
<simira> liw: you're going to Boston then, lucky...
<heno> liw: go ahead :)
<simira> (I'm not the least jealous... :( )
<liw> I've not done this before, let's hope I'm not messing things up
<liw> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 17:03. The chair is liw.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<liw> we don't have much of an agenda prepared
<liw> [TOPIC] post-release bug status
<MootBot> New Topic:  post-release bug status
<heno> I just posted a straw man one now
<liw> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam -- right, at the bottom of the page now
<heno> my favourite bug graph this week http://people.ubuntu.com/~brian/testing_graphs/plots/update-manager-month-unconfirmed.png
<liw> what's the situation with bugs now, almost a week after the release?
<liw> uh oh, that doesn't look good
<heno> poor mvo really gets flooded just after release
<liw> mvo?
<heno> we should help out with these I think
<bdmurray> I think some of them are invalid, just temporary issues with mirrors, etc
<heno> bdmurray: can you try some bughelper duplication-finding magic on those?
<mvo> liw: hello
<liw> do I read that graph correctly: it shows the number of new, untriaged bugs each day?
<heno> are there lots of apport-generated ones?
<mvo> that is quite possible
<mvo> yes, those are mostly auto-generated
<mvo> we have e.g. ~50 duplicates for a adept bug, let me dig the bugnumber
<heno> liw: right, see http://people.ubuntu.com/~brian/testing_graphs/update-manager.html for the interactive version
<mvo> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/update-manager/+bug/154771
<bdmurray> 153500 maybe?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 154771 in update-manager "Kubuntu 7.10 Upgrading to Kubuntu 7.10 and after gives error and says Distribution is Up To Date" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<liw> is there automation for finding duplicated, automatically reported bugs?
<mvo> bdmurray: yes, that is the other one
<heno> http://people.ubuntu.com/~brian/testing_graphs/ for other packages
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~brian/testing_graphs/ for other packages
<mvo> the problem with the update-manager bugs is that each update problem gets to this package first
<bdmurray> liw: I believe ther is for crash reports
<pedro_> liw, for stacktraces yes, don't know if there's one for that kind of issues
<heno> mvo: so you don't sound too worried
<mvo> even if its really a bug in e.g. a postinst
<mvo> its certainly not good
<mvo> our upgrade is fragile, mostly because of the fact that for ~2000 installed package ~4000 maintainer scripts gets run and some are really fragile
<mvo> it used to be a upgrade error if e.g. invoke-rc.d can't stop a daemon
<mvo> -> maintainer script failre, upgrade error
<liw> mvo, do you think the fragility could be lessened by more vigorous pre-release testing using automated tools?
<bdmurray> mvo: did you find anything out about the medibuntu repo ones?
<heno> mvo: I guess you and liw should talk a bit about upgrade testing at UDS
<mvo> same for .e.g python. if python-central is not able to compile py modules (e.g. because of locally installed stuff) the upgrade may fail
<mvo> liw: to a certain extend yes
<mvo> liw: one big issue is that we do not test universe packages enough for upgradability
<heno> mvo: what's the limiting factor on test coverage; coding tests or HW to run on?
<Lutin> bdmurray: what are the medibuntu-related ones ?
<cjwatson> we made python a bit less fragile in the gutsy cycle by at least ensuring that debconf doesn't fail to configure in that case
<liw> mvo, we should test universe packages as well, certainly
<mvo> liw: but then its a problem with our paradigma, maintainer script fails -> upgrade fails
<heno> imagine if we wanted to run a silly amt of permutations of upgrade scenarios
<mvo> heno: time
<heno> mvo: as in dev time?
<bdmurray> bug 153948 is an example
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 153948 in rosetta "Launchpad translations take a plain '%' char as a format string when it's not a format string" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/153948
<mvo> cjwatson: yes, I think we do better than before (with invoke-rc.d as well)
<mvo> bdmurray: no, sorry
<bdmurray> Lutin: bug 153958 is an example
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 153958 in update-manager "update-manager problem when upgrading from Feisty to Gutsy" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/153958
<mvo> heno: dev time to setup the tests
<mvo> heno: the currently available auto-upgrade tester could test universe as well, the code is there
<Lutin> bdmurray: this url has been deprecated for months
<mvo> heno: but it takes time to generate the base image for the upgrade test and especially in universe quite a few packages fail to install
<heno> I wonder how many of the bugs we are getting involve universe packages
<bdmurray> Lutin: well, apparently not everyone knows that
<liw> it would be possible to set up piuparts for example to break invoke-rc.d and see what happens, might be an interesting thing to do
<mvo> heno: the other issue is that the upgrade takes a lot of time with  a lot of packages
<mvo> heno: I did tests with ~12000 installed packages and dpkg eat ~500 mb of real mem
<Lutin> bdmurray: unfortunately :/
<liw> mvo, that's thankfully a problem that can be solved by throwing hardware at it
<mvo> liw: if invoke-rc.d is broken, every upgraded daemon fails and that makes the upgrade fail (or at least it gives scary errors)
<heno> mvo: right, I'm thinking it would be cool to combine this with other tests, like server testing that needs HW anyway
<mvo> right
<liw> mvo, right, the point would be to see how much stuff breaks by that kind of thing
<mvo> right
<heno> so just to wrap up the topic:
<Lutin> bdmurray: does this kind of bug _break_ the upgrade ? I wouldn't believe it
<mvo> I didn't managed to analyze the bugreports fully yet, but from what i have seen over the weekend it seem a lot of errors are releated to getting the upgrades because of server overload (especially mirrors) and then packages breaking during the upgrade
<heno> bdmurray, pedro_, ogasawara: would you say the bug report impact from the release has been noticeable, but not alarming?
<ogasawara> heno: yes
<pedro_> i thought it would be worse
<pedro_> we indeed get a lot of reports during the weekend but nothing alarming
<heno> ok, great
<heno> next topic?
<bdmurray> my concern is us fallling further behind in the next 2 weeks though
<liw> [AGREED] the bug report impact from the release has been noticeable, but not alarming
<MootBot> AGREED received:  the bug report impact from the release has been noticeable, but not alarming
<liw> [TOPIC] mobile platform test cases
<MootBot> New Topic:  mobile platform test cases
<heno> bdmurray: with UDS and AllHands getting in the way, true
<heno> any one here have experience with the mobile platform?
<liw> not me
<ogasawara> heno: I don't
<pedro_> i dont...
<bdmurray> I've used a mobile device before. ;)
<heno> we need some better test plans there; But I'll email some people
<heno> (it was worth asking :) ) ; ok, next topic
<liw> [TOPIC] testing plans for hardy
<MootBot> New Topic:  testing plans for hardy
<heno> I seem to remember we had various long-term issues we wanted to discuss last week, but cut short
<heno> hence the general testing and bug topics on the agenda
<heno> has everyone going to UDS looked at the proposed topics and subscribed?
<liw> I'm trying to find the log from the previous meeting
<liw> I've looked at and subscribed to all relevant UDS topics I know of
<heno> you need to subscribe to the specs to be scheduled for the meetings
 * ogasawara needs to subscribe then
<heno> yeah, please do that before UDS starts
<liw> http://kryten.incognitus.net/mootbot/meetings/ubuntu-meeting.log.20071017_1719.html -- that should be our previous meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://kryten.incognitus.net/mootbot/meetings/ubuntu-meeting.log.20071017_1719.html -- that should be our previous meeting
<heno> I'll go through the list later today and subscribe other distro people to things that seem relevant as well
<liw> nothing much in that log, though
<liw> I'll re-iterate my intention of concentrating, to the extent possible, on automating tests, starting with using existing tools of various kinds
<liw> anyone else?
<heno> right; system-level stuff before new year (est.) and then make a start on gui-based testing after new year
<liw> anything else?
<liw> yeah, like that
<heno> I have another topic: QA resource page
<liw> let's do the remainign one in the wiki first
<liw> [TOPIC] bug management plans for hardy
<MootBot> New Topic:  bug management plans for hardy
<liw> I have the feeling we should try to keep the number of untriaged bugs and the number of open bugs as low as possible -- it's easier to do triage if there's only a small number of bugs to work on
<liw> but I haven't participated in triage at all yet
<heno> a noble goal
<liw> let's see if it is a practical one as well
<liw> anything else about bug management?
<heno> that either means cloning more triagers, tightening policy (closing more bugs), making it more difficult to file bugs, etc.
<bdmurray> I think writing some bughelper clue files for previous high profile bugs to identify duplicates and cleanup some packages might be worthwhile
<heno> which may all be valid choices
<heno> bdmurray: 'clean up some packages' -> the clue files for them?
<bdmurray> Like mvo mentioned an update-manager bug earlier, lets write a clue file for that and other update-manager bugs and see how many dupes we can find and what affect that has on the number of update-manager bugs
<heno> bdmurray: right, this is a good time for that as we're not under the pressure of a release
<davmor2> Sorry I'm late :(
<bdmurray> well, we also need to keep an eye out for sru candidate bugs
<bdmurray> but I think some of the reports may help with that
<davmor2> SRU?
<bdmurray> stable release update
<davmor2> ta
<liw> anything else on this topic?
<heno> next?
<liw> [TOPIC] QA resource page
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA resource page
<liw> heno?
<heno> I just posted this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Resources
<heno> I'd like us to bring up a few on-line resources about QA at these meetings each week
<heno> there is lots we can all learn out there
<heno> as a new team I think that would be valuable
<liw> I agree
<heno> We could all just add links to that page, but I'd like them to be mentioned here in some way
<heno> a long list of links is not that useful
<liw> mentioning them here would be good
<liw> also, perhaps adding a few words of description to each link?
<liw> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Resources
<heno> I wonder if we could ask each person to bring one item to the meeting each week and say two lines about it?
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Resources
<liw> I'd rather have people mention anything they happen to find
<heno> it could be an article, research paper, good blog entry about QA, video, etc.
<liw> in a repeating topic that happens every week
<heno> ok, that works too
<davmor2> sounds good :)
<liw> I'll add that topic to the agenda now so we don't forget
<bdmurray> And what is the purpose?  I'd have to stop doing something else to do this.
<heno> these are not required reading of course, just recommended :)
<heno> bdmurray: if you don't feel it helps you then you don't need to
<heno> you might want to glance at what is being posted though
<bdmurray> I'd certainly like to, but I'm quite uncertain where to fit it in
<liw> I follow programming.reddit.com and they fairly often have testing stuff there, so I'd be more than happy to mention anything there
<heno> bdmurray: you mean about finding links or looking at other people's submissions?
<bdmurray> heno: both. ;)
<davmor2> I think an useful links that further the cause can only be a good thing :)
<heno> right, the google tech talks are quite long, about an hour
<heno> bdmurray: you could post an informative bug search from your weekly work that new community people might find useful
<bdmurray> heno: okay, I'll see what I can come up with
<liw> so: anyone is welcome to bring what they have, and anyone is welcome to make what use they can of what is brought -- are we in agreement? :)
<heno> I guess this is something I'm used to fro my university days; lunch-time talks
<heno> I think so
<liw> any other topics?
<heno> any other business?
<heno> :)
<heno> oh, the open week sessions went really well!
<bdmurray> When will the next meeting be?
<heno> bdmurray, pedro_, liw: well done!
<liw> bdmurray, good point
<heno> hm, we should schedule one during UDS
<davmor2> yes,  Is there a way that we can log our hardware fully?  So that it gets added to bugs and reports save having to add it each time?
<heno> with in-person and voip
<liw> heno, would it be best to do that scheduling on site when we know what the uds schedule looks like?
<heno> right, should we punt that decision to Monday?
<liw> davmor2, the reportbug(-ng) program could perhaps be adapted to report bugs to launchpad
<liw> heno, I'd say we should punt to Monday
<heno> davmor2: I'd like to start using hwtest for this
<davmor2> any links for hwtest?
<heno> it produces an XML file that we can store different places
<heno> it should be an ubuntu app
 * heno looks for it
<heno> when did we remove that from the menus?
<bdmurray> I thought it was run once thing
<davmor2> okay cool.  I'm thinking that in testing senario's it may speed things up if every tester with intel cpu is having issues where as everyone with amd's are fine same for 32 and 64 bit etc.
<bdmurray> That is why it isn't in the menu
<bdmurray> However, I don't recall seeing it when doing Gutsy installs
<heno> I think it was there in the old days, but removed for the reason you stated
<heno> let's take that question to the mailing list ...
<liw> anything else for this meeting?
<heno> bdmurray: should that be announced somewhere, should we just start using it?
<davmor2> heno are you on about ubuntu device database?
<bdmurray> heno: that what?
<heno> davmor2: yes
<heno> bdmurray: ubuntu-qa mailing list
<davmor2> it's hidden in system tools
<heno> (sorry, unclear)
<davmor2> ubuntu-qa has a mailing list ?
<bdmurray> davmor2: yeah, I haven't looked at it in a bit and no is subscribed but we thought we would start using it for this
<bdmurray> so I need to double check the config then we can start using it
<heno> bdmurray: can you post some info to the bugsquad list and place a link in the wiki, etc. when it's ready?
<heno> or we can just subscribe and go?
<stgraber> sorry, was afk for quite a long time :)
<bdmurray> why don't we just start using it and see what happens
<heno> davmor2: let's play with that app a bit and brainstorm on the new list
<heno> ok cool
<davmor2> where's the sign up point?
<heno> anything else?
<liw> how does one subscribe?
<bdmurray> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ubuntu-qa
<davmor2> request sent :)
<pedro_> subscribed :-)
<heno> ok, I think we're done
<liw> subscribed
<liw> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 18:08.
<liw> heno, I'll write a summary in a bit, where should I send it?
<heno> liw: thanks, can you email it to me?
<liw> will do
<heno> should be just the bot output mostly
<liw> yup
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Edubuntu Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 30 Oct 16:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 31 Oct 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu Team | 07 Nov 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu Team | 08 Nov 15:00 UTC: Community Development Team
<RichEd> hello edubunteros ... and good evening :)
<RichEd> ogra will kick off with technical
<RichEd> then we'll move into UDS Hardy Heron Discussions
 * RichEd hands the mic to ogra
<ogra> well, not much to say, i'm up t my ellbows in the guts of the classmatePC
<ogra> *up to
<stgraber> good evening
<ogra> and i just realized i missed a talk i had to hold yeterday
<ogra> but apparently someone held it (there is praise on planet)
<LaserJock> ogra: hehe, I covered for you
<RichEd> oops ... juliux's ubucon ?
<juliux> RichEd, it was a sucess;)
<RichEd> goed
<ogra> LaserJock, WOW, i owe you a truckload of beer
<LaserJock> RichEd: Open Week
<juliux> but no ogra ;)
<sbalneav> Meeting?
<juliux> RichEd, next ubucon in german in 2008 weekend after the .10 release;)
<LaserJock> I just gave a brief overview of Edubuntu
<ogra> i totally missed it (worked on the classmate image from 8:00 in the morning till 23:00)
<LaserJock> and fielded as many questions as I could
<LaserJock> there was quite a lot of interest
<ogra> yeah, you had good press :)
<juliux> RichEd, more then 300 visitors on two days
<RichEd> nice :)
<ogra> i'm really feeling a bit overworked atm .. i need a break after UDS, sorry if i miss stuff
<LaserJock> there's clearly interest in Edubuntu, we just need to capitalize and market it
<ogra> yeah
 * juliux votes for holiday for ogasawara 
 * juliux votes for holiday for ogra 
<ogra> well, beyond that here is a little list of proposals for specs i want to put up
<ogra> LTSP:
<ogra> - virtual-haldevices (revisited from seville, i have some demo code already)
<ogra> - loacalapps (majority of work is already done by scott)
<ogra> - GUI frontends for ltsp-tools (should probably be a sub spec of a general edubuntu server maintenance tools spec)
<ogra> Classmate:
<ogra> - UME-edu derivative
<ogra> - inclusion of the defined missing bits (TPM etc)
<ogra> Edubuntu
<ogra> - network session management (italc and the like)
<ogra> - edubuntu-content-server (moodle/wiki flavor integration)
<ogra> - edubuntu CD discussion (how do we proceed with teh edubuntu CDs)
<ogra> - meta system enhancements (new meta packages or install tasks):
<ogra>     - edubuntu-content-server (see above)
<ogra>     - edubuntu-auth-server (based on teh network auth server work of teh server team
<ogra>     - edubuntu-file-server
<ogra>     ....
<ogra> is sbalneav around btw ?
<ogra> ah, yes
<ogra> (missed that)
<ogra> RichEd already created a spec for the CD discussion
<ogra> you might want to subscribe to it
<ogra> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/edubuntu-addon
<RichEd> great ... i think colin added me ... will check
<ogra> since it might have huge impact o the future of edubuntu
<LaserJock> yes, for sure
<ogra> well, my main cocern with the addon CD is that we force a two CD install upon the user ...
<sbalneav> Yes I am!
<ogra> and we wont gain anything in testing since the install tests for each milestone CD still has to happen
<ogra> so instead of doing two CD tests (live and server) its then ubuntu and edu-addon so i think that will be on par time wise ...
<ogra> but well, thats to be discussed during the BOFs :)
<ogra> any comments on the above lists ...
<ogra> additions ...
<ogra> critics ...
<LaserJock> yeah, there's a lot of things that can be done
<sbalneav> One quick one, but I think we can just roll it into maybe the virtual hal
<sbalneav> C versions of cdpinger and jetpipe, started from udev if devices is available.
<LaserJock> hmm, do we need to do anything more edu focused?
<stgraber> ogra: no spec about TCM/Italc/Any other classroom management tool ?
<LaserJock> most of your list is server related
<LaserJock> - network session management (italc and the like)
<LaserJock> stgraber: ^^
 * stgraber is blind :)
<ogra> stgraber, you come, right ?
<sbalneav> LaserJock: Did we want to resurrect the menus thing?
<stgraber> ogra: yep
<LaserJock> sbalneav: I will be working on it yes
<ogra> YAY
<sbalneav> Any other edu apps we want to get in there?
<LaserJock> I don't think we need to spec out the menus again
<LaserJock> just need implementation
<sbalneav> I'll help with that.
<LaserJock> well, we should have an application review
<sbalneav> Do we want a seabass spec? :)
<LaserJock> lol
<sbalneav> I'm game if you are.
<LaserJock> no, that's ok
<ogra> we should find ressources to have a look at the getdeb UI ... (without the package install option, i like the app revie pages)
<LaserJock> but there are certainly apps I think we should be including
<LaserJock> ogra: good idea
<ogra> it looks like it assembles some of the stuff we dfined in seville
<ogra> for an online app DB
<LaserJock> yeah
<ogra> seems to be a good time since there are some collaboration efforts lately
<LaserJock> overall it seems to me like we're heading into two directions
<LaserJock> we have a server focus
<LaserJock> and an educational app focus
<ogra> yeah
<sbalneav> ogra: what flight are you coming in on?  I can't get international calling turned on in my phone fast enough, so I'll give you my cell: (204) 795-8321.  When you touch down, start pinging me.  If you tell me your flight, I'll try to make it over to the terminal you're at.
<RichEd> I've just published a wiki page for this spec discussion:
<RichEd> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Education/UDS-Boston/Overview
<ogra> i think its LH420
<RichEd> * there's the list ogra put up above ...
<RichEd> * the edubuntu roadmap which has some outstanding spec from Gutsy
<RichEd> * an and ideas page from David Trask
<RichEd> * and an
<sbalneav> Get my cell #?
<RichEd> we need to extract the good feature proposals from the roadmap and david
<RichEd> and add any new ones raised here
<RichEd> ...
<RichEd> ogra / LaserJock: who wants to lead us through the roadmap at lightnening speed to agree what should be brought in ?
<LaserJock> ogra probably knows better what's been implemented
<ogra> hmm
<LaserJock> I would like to insert here, that I'd personaly like to see a specific "These are the products we are going to produce and their purposes" list
 * ogra fixes formatting
<LaserJock> I imagine that the results of the CD discussion will affect the list
<ogra> for sure
<LaserJock> but I think we need to nail down what we want to deliver before we list features
<ogra> well, the question is what fits on such a CD if i have to add half a system for ltsp
<RichEd> LaserJock: two main thrusts requested by upper management ...
<ogra> currently addon doesnt carry *any* base packages
<RichEd> 1. tools to assist large scale deployment and management
<RichEd> 2. tools for actual teaching in the classroom
<RichEd> ---
<ogra> i fear we would have to drop the excessive list of langpacks
<LaserJock> RichEd: ok, those sound good
<LaserJock> is there a constraint on delivery?
<LaserJock> like how many CDs
<ogra> every CD costs money
<sbalneav> Isn't the list of langpacks exacerbated by the need to include Mozilla langpacks as well?   Should we raise the xulrunner/netkit issue?
<RichEd> There is a bit of resistance to provide more than one education / edubuntu CD
<LaserJock> the problem I'm seeing is that we're becoming a server OS + educational OS + teaching OS
<ogra> sbalneav, hardy will have xulrunner in main ;)
<ogra> and epiphany built against it
<RichEd> So that is another reason to try to get edubuntu to be an add on that installs straight after and on top of Ubuntu CD1
<LaserJock> RichEd: except I don't think we have enough space
<RichEd> i.e. Ubuntu swallows the cost of our first CD
<ogra> well, it builds a psychological hurdle we need to overcome via marketing
<ogra> so we'll need to do way more promotional work then imho
<LaserJock> I seriously don't think we can provide LTSP + good selection of educational apps for various ages + content and teaching tools for teachers all on 1 CD
<ogra> right
<LaserJock> so maybe we need to have targeted CDs
<LaserJock> targeted Addon CDs
<LaserJock> if we were to drop the Desktop CD and the 1st CD (because that's Ubuntu)
<sbalneav> Correct me if I'm wrong, but the LTSP bit doesn't take up hardly any room, does it?  So I think the issue really is splitting apps vs content.
<LaserJock> and had a Classroom Server Addon, Educational Applications Addon, and Teaching Tools Addon or something
<LaserJock> sbalneav: LTSP itself may not, but adding in all kinds of server bits that make it cool might
<ogra> sbalneav, it will take up as much as debootstrap needs and the ltsp-client deps
<sbalneav> Ah, ok
<ogra> thats surely 1-200M
<LaserJock> I think there are a lot of people who wouldn't care about LTSP
<LaserJock> the just want educational apps
<ogra> right
<LaserJock> or maybe they want moodle and wikipedia or something
<sbalneav> Well, maybe the ltsp bits should get moved off to a separate cd, then.
<ogra> we'll likely loose a lot of freshly switched K12LTSP users
<sbalneav> along with server type stuff.
<ogra> and indeed edubuntu is currently mostly hyped for its ltsp integration ...
<LaserJock> If we had a really rocking Server CD I think the LTSP people would really love it
<ogra> at least i the most reviews i saw in the past
<ogra> the prob here is that you need a desktop for ltsp
<LaserJock> if you start with Ubuntu though it's not going to be that bad
<ogra> so just addig it to the server CD (for which we give commercial support) is a bit tricky
<LaserJock> slip in the Server CD and get Edubuntu branding and a great LTSP server
<sbalneav> BTW, there are 6 K12ltsp cdroms
<ogra> i know
<LaserJock> yeah
<ogra> be sure i dont want to go there
<LaserJock> well, yes and no
<ogra> i'm maintainng three atm and its a fulltime job
<ogra> i wouldnt want to imagine 6 :)
<LaserJock> 6 CDs gives you an enormous potential for educational content
<sbalneav> I hate to raise the dvd issue....
<ogra> sure
<sbalneav> maybe it's time?
<LaserJock> we *should* have openclipart
<ogra> sbalneav, if you pay me a 10M line :P
<ogra> then i'll be with you :)
<sbalneav> Me?!?  Dude, just as soon as *I* start getting paid, I'll buy you fibre :) :)
<ogra> heh
<LaserJock> yeah
<ogra> well, in any case DVD production is quite a lot more time consuming due to the bandwith requirements ...
<ogra> i think its probably time to go for a DVD eve thopugh that will loose us a lotusers
<LaserJock> well, I personally like the idea of several (say 2 or 3) targetted CDs
<LaserJock> plus a demo LiveCD
<LaserJock> but well, I don't have to maintain CDs ;-)
<ogra> well, in such a case i'd prefer to keep the current model
<ogra> the current addon still has a lot of potential we dont use
<stgraber> they would also get few testing, Add-on CDs was only tested by 3 people I wouldn't even imagine if we had 3 of those :)
<LaserJock> well, my point was targetting
<ogra> we ship just blindly all langpacks for example
<ogra> LaserJock, my point is getting it all on one CD
<sbalneav> Is it any harder (other than size) to maintain 1 dvd image, as opposed to 3 cd images?
<ogra> sbalneav, the dowload times are horrible
<sbalneav> Seems to me the dvd would be less work.
<ogra> note that i cant use torrents during development
<sbalneav> Well that, but downloading 3 cd's is almost as bad as 1 dvd
<ogra> no
<sbalneav> 3/4's as bad
<ogra> since i can start work after the first iso is there
<sbalneav> ah
<sbalneav> Well, how often do you have to download?
<sbalneav> Once every couple of days?  Or once a day?
<ogra> once every two weeks at least
<LaserJock> I'd say have Canonical get you a faster line so you can do your work ;-)
<stgraber> you can also use rsync and sync only the delta (Don't know how efficient that's though)
<ogra> usually i spend every third development week only with isos
<LaserJock> ok, but here's a question
<LaserJock> would our testing be easier with a DVD
<ogra> stgraber, its a lot more on the DVD (it contains more than just the CDs)
<LaserJock> ?
<ogra> well, the DVD has six install variants ...
<sbalneav> I guess it comes down to (from canonical's point of view) what's more cost efficient.  Buying you a faster line, but you can do more work because you don't have multiple images to maintain, or slower line, but lose employee productivity because of uneccessary work.
<LaserJock> well, let's maybe cut that down
<ogra> the CDs have three each and i have an addon CD
<sbalneav> If it were *ME*, you'd have the 10 meg line by now :)
<ogra> LaserJock, we'd likely rather raise it
<ogra> for the different flavours
<LaserJock> but it would all be on one media at least
<ogra> sbalneav, i just bought a 2M SDSL line since i need the upstream speed ...
<ogra> but that oe cant get upgraded higher :/
<LaserJock> look, there's no clear winning solution here, IMO
<ogra> LaserJock, right
<ogra> with neither of the scenarios you mean ?
<ogra> i agree ...
<LaserJock> but I think we have to recognize that we aren't going to be an Educational distro for long if we don't deliver content
<LaserJock> if we are just Ubuntu LTSP + plus a couple token edu apps
<sbalneav> LaserJock++
<LaserJock> I think we might get left in the dust
<ogra> i dont see us having to deliver content though
<LaserJock> not content in the sense of ebooks
<ogra> but i see us including tools to easily include content
<ogra> like http://www.softlab.ntua.gr/~ttsiod/buildWikipediaOffline.html
<LaserJock> altherough somebody did suggest that
<ogra> (something i'd loved to have in gutsy but i had no time for it)
<LaserJock> but stuff like openclipart
<LaserJock> moodle, wikipedia
<ogra> right
<ogra> moodle is not content
<LaserJock> and lots of educational apps
<LaserJock> no, but it's content focused
<ogra> indeed
<LaserJock> and I meant content in the sense that we need more edu "stuff"
<ogra> but hw far would that go ?
<ogra> i mean you will have localized content etc
<RichEd> sabdfl was suggesting we work with the other friendly distros to see what apps they have selected to install on top of edubuntu / ubuntu
<ogra> you would end up with 10 DVDs if you wuld start to ship anything we can find
<RichEd> like guadalinex, extramedura, MAX
<LaserJock> ogra: not everything, but more than 1CD
<RichEd> although their selections may not be available in english
<RichEd> b.t.w. he says Max employ 8-10 teachers as fuill time staff to test & play with apps and make recommendations
<LaserJock> *unless* we really want to push Universe and "install over network what you want"
<RichEd> * luxury !
<ogra> LaserJock, i'd go for that in case of content, yes
<LaserJock> I'm not a K12 teacher or ICT expert or anything
<ogra> LaserJock, having tools for getting the content things like aptoncd for edu content for example would make more sense imho
<LaserJock> but I've definately seen where people want education apps
<ogra> imagine somethig like g-a-i that offers differet teaching content and builds a CD if needed
<ogra> edubuntu job is imho to provide the platform
<ogra> and to make the content easily accessible
<LaserJock> yes, that's why I'm trying to say, we first of all need to figure out what we are trying to provide
<ogra> but not t package up wikipwdia
<RichEd> ogra: would it be possible for people to select a list of applications, and for an automated process to "assemble .iso for download" ?
<LaserJock> then we can decide what features we need to deliver that product
<ogra> LaserJock, i just outlined it :) thats my personal view of edubuntu
<ogra> RichEd, would require some dev time but is surely possible to write
<LaserJock> AptonCD basically does that, right?
<ogra> not online :)
<LaserJock> oh, not viea web page no
<LaserJock> *via
<ogra> LaserJock, RichEd wants online synaptic with iso builder ;)
<LaserJock> *cough*
<LaserJock> anyway
<ogra> RichEd, in fact synaptic has such a function in its file menu
<stgraber> but you won't be able to suppot any of those ISOs as it'd be impossible to test every possibilities (so high risk of people complaining of non-working images)
<RichEd> so that the users can get 1 base CD from us, and then only download what they need for CD2
<LaserJock> I think we have lot more to do to get to the "make the content easily accessible" bit
<LaserJock> and I'm not so sure about the platform thing
<RichEd> if it is a CD which installs apps from g-a-i then isn't it like a simple archive ?
<LaserJock> stgraber: as long as it's just a "repo on a CD" it shouldn't be bad
 * RichEd is just throwing out ideas ... some may very well be a bit off whack
<ogra> RichEd, i think g-a-i integration is not that easy (it needs to be sigend with the archive key etc)
<ogra> but synaptics has a mode for that that could be tweaked and extended i think
<LaserJock> ogra: what is Edubuntu supposed to be a platform for?
<ogra> LaserJock, teaching ?
<LaserJock> so then it needs a lot of teaching tools and educational software
<ogra> right
<LaserJock> that's what I was meaning by "content"
<ogra> oh
<LaserJock> and I think we have a long ways to go before we've got enough of that
<ogra> i tught you meant content with content :)
<RichEd> LaserJock: rather say "teaching / learning tools" ?
<RichEd> rather than content or o/s or server tools
<LaserJock> there's things like ebook library management
<ogra> LaserJock, well, the ubuntu way of things was always to find a sensible default ...
<ogra> that takes its time :)
<LaserJock> right
<LaserJock> what I'm saying is that we need to have a media or set of products that can deliver that
<LaserJock> I don't see it happening with only 1 CD
<ogra> no, thats why we'Re at two already
<LaserJock> so a DVD would give you enough space
<LaserJock> but has lots of associated costs
<ogra> but the second CD still has a lot of potential we can use
<LaserJock> I think an alternative would be to have targetted CDs
<ogra> we're far from falling under any constrints here
<LaserJock> perhaps even by age range
<LaserJock> yes, but we've only added around 4 apps since Edgy
<ogra> yeah and we ship around 200MB of langpacks
<LaserJock> if we really got serious about adding tools it's gonna get filled up pretty quickly
<ogra> which is not really needed
<LaserJock> openclipart is ~100MB
<ogra> fine, lets add it
<LaserJock> but is a very important thing to educators
<LaserJock> for sure I think we'd be fine for Hardy with the current Addon CD
<ogra> right
<ogra> probably even for hardy+1
<LaserJock> quite possibly
<ogra> i'm good at space shuffling after two years :)
<LaserJock> hehe, yes you are
<ogra> i think ubuntu will do the move at some point
<ogra> and i think that might be hardy+1
<ogra> (dont trust my predictions though) :)
<LaserJock> I think 2 CDs is still a bit confusing for people
<ogra> yeah
<LaserJock> although I think that can be handled well via marketing/docs
<ogra> well, anyway, we shouldnt do the CD discussion here and now ...
<LaserJock> yeah
<ogra> (even though we just did :P)
<stgraber> :)
<LaserJock> I just like to talk about it since I won't be in Boston
<ogra> right
<ogra> subscribe to the spec :)
<LaserJock> I did
<LaserJock> and if I'm available I'll try to listent in
<ogra> so ... where do we go now ? :)
<ogra> any vote on specs ?
<ogra> what do we want to take from gutsy ?
<ogra> Palm device support ... is that implemented sbalneav ?
<sbalneav> no
<ogra> do we want to carry it over ?
<sbalneav> Ummm.
<ogra> your decision :) you were after it
<sbalneav> If I get time to implement it without it being an official spec, can it still go in?
<ogra> ltsp-update-manager-integration ... is something i definately want
<sbalneav> My big hitter for hardy's localapps.
<ogra> sbalneav, sure, who is upstream for LTSP ?
<ogra> :P
<sbalneav> Gawd, who knows anymore :)
<ogra> all your decision :)
<ogra> well ...
<sbalneav> ok, leave it off for now
<ogra> edubuntu-menus-completion ...
<ogra> something we really should attack now ... and LaserJock already built a good information base
<LaserJock> I'll be working on that
<RichEd> chriskenyon is also wanting that
<LaserJock> I don't think it needs a BOF or anything
<LaserJock> well, there's gonna have to be some though into actually
<LaserJock> I think I'm going to have to bug Gnome and/or XDG
<LaserJock> becase our current implentation will no longer work
<ogra> edubuntu-user-management ... i'd love to tackle that but with very low priority (thats LDAP integration for users ad groups manager)
<ogra> LaserJock, well, then we need to fix xdg ourselves without breaking it
<ogra> :)
<ogra> dran easy, isnt it ?
 * ogra hides
<ogra> well, there is only edubuntu-application-review left on that list .. i think thats an ongoing thing not bund to a release
<ogra> (and needs manpower we dont have for web development)
<ogra> but having a look at the getdeb ui would probably make sense at least to add a note about it :)
<ogra> in case you dont know it: http://www.getdeb.net/
<sbalneav> I gotta go.
<sbalneav> Wife's coming to pick me up.
<ogra> ciao sbalneav, thanks for attending
<sbalneav> See you all online tomorrow.
<LaserJock> ogra: it should work via apt-url
<LaserJock> the "download" part anyway
<ogra> well, i dont want the installer parts :)
<ogra> i want the app review tool
<ogra> for a datatbase
<ogra> as we defined it in the spec ... but with focus on the wine page
<ogra> getdeb looks better suited and more in the direction we need
<ogra> but it surely needs changes for our specific purpose
<LaserJock> ldm is done, righ?
<ogra> anyway so far we have: ltsp-update-manager-integration, edubuntu-menus-completion, edubuntu-user-management (with extra low prio, only if dev time is left)
<ogra> ldm is done
 * ogra moves on to dtrasks page
<ogra> thats mostly a list of bugfix requests ... grmbl
<ogra> "Out of the box support for Screen Readers and Text to Speech"
<ogra> orca is simply broken in ltsp, thats a bug and needs fixage ... no spec
<ogra> Default Automatic Removal of Stale NBD Swap files
<ogra> is something we do with gutsy by default iirc
<ogra> "Stale processes left over after logout"
<ogra> app bugs that need fixage ...
<ogra> "Firefox pixmap caching issue"
<ogra> upstream issue we cant do much here
<ogra> (sigh)
<ogra> "TeacherTool inclusion or should it be separate?"
<ogra> requires someone to package teachertool
<ogra> "Thin-client manager Improvements"
<ogra> that would make a nice spec and i know stgraber has interest in it
<stgraber> indeed
<ogra> "Edubuntu needs to be focused on as a high load server"
 * RichEd cheers for stgraber 
<ogra> i agree that we should review if we ship the server kernel on the server CD ... *if* there is a server CD after the discussion :)
<ogra> "Authentication Stuff and User Management Stuff"
<ogra> server team ...
<ogra> we'll get a nice auth server setup in hardy from the server team we can just include
<ogra> nothing for us to spe
<ogra> c
<ogra> "Profile management (Sabayon) needs to be standard and easy"
<ogra> fully agreed, covered by one of my spec suggestions
<ogra> "Inclusion of Openoffice extensions system-wide"
<ogra> not sure we can do that at all with our package design
<ogra> that needs discussion with the openoffice maintainer first if its even technically possible to provide them packaged
<ogra> i know we have a policy to not ship firefox extensions packaged
<ogra> might be that applies there as well
<ogra> "Marketing and Advocacy"
<ogra> RichEd, ?
<LaserJock> ogra: there are lots of firefox extentions in the repos
<RichEd> ogra: I'll work through the "discussion" ones ... those will not need a formal LP spec ? or do you think we should go that route
<ogra> LaserJock, none in main
<ogra> RichEd, we will likely have "workshop" and "discussion" BOFs like in seville again
<RichEd> we need a specific community discussion ... and can slot most of those in ... I'll work that into my overview page
<ogra> err ..
<ogra> i'm on dtrasks page atm
<RichEd> yep ...
<ogra> and was asking about the "Marketing and Advocacy" topic
<RichEd> marketing and advocacy ... that is under way by me for my official job task
<ogra> ah, fine ... not a spec then :)
<ogra> "Support"
<RichEd> very high priority ... so i can share that discussion with the group at UDS ... won't take long
<ogra> not sure what to do about that one
<RichEd> that's what my earlier comment ^ referred to
<ogra> the beta site surely lacks activity
<ogra> bu we have nobody to work on it
<RichEd> under community ... how to muster contributors / advisors
 * ogra doesnt think thats a spec=)
<LaserJock> well, pips1, highvoltage and I have been working on a plan for edubuntu.org
<ogra> LaserJock, want to spec it ?
<RichEd> and related is a discussion dtrask and I had this week via email ... for a school project
<RichEd> the idea is for david to set assignments for class work and marks etc. for adding pages to the edubuntu site ...
<LaserJock> ogra: it might not be a bad idea, is pips1 going to Boston?
<ogra> i dont think so
<LaserJock> so none of us will actually be there :/
<RichEd> LaserJock: he'll be invited to UDS+1 again I think
<LaserJock> we can spec it anyway
<ogra> right ...
<LaserJock> maybe just not under the official Boston schedule
<ogra> nothing to put on the list then ?
<ogra> ok
<RichEd> See project idea above ^ to get web-site content moving and contributions coming in ...
<LaserJock> highvoltage got the drupal theme from Fridge imported
<LaserJock> and pips1 updated the drupal install
<LaserJock> so we gotta get the them Edubuntu-ized
<RichEd> We'll discuss this on Monday at UDS, and when we visit Davids kids and school ... he'll introduce us to the kids as the guys who put together their edubuntu software
<LaserJock> we're working on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Website
<RichEd> He reckons they would be hyped to have "their work" published, with a small acknowledgement to the school
<ogra> LaserJock, doesnt sond like it needs a spec ...
<LaserJock> perhaps not
<LaserJock> we'll see
<LaserJock> we need details ;-)
<ogra> "Other things that defy categorization"
<RichEd> He suggested (seeing as his kids are younger) a kids level section on the edubuntu site
<ogra> Inclusion of NSCD. ... if the server team includes it in the auth server well, get it ... else not
<ogra> no spec
<ogra> the rest looks like better suited for bug reports on that sitwe
<ogra> so ... to summarize
<ogra> "Thin-client manager Improvements" , "Edubuntu needs to be focused on as a high load server" (depending on CD decision), "Profile management (Sabayon) needs to be standard and easy" (covered by my specs)
<ogra> anything i missed ?
 * RichEd scrolls back
<ogra> rater look at dtarsks wikipage :) if you miss anything in my list
<ogra> *dtrask
<RichEd> --- just this one ---
<RichEd> <ogra> "TeacherTool inclusion or should it be separate?"
<RichEd> <ogra> requires someone to package teachertool
<RichEd> but from this approach ...
<ogra> yeah its an old K12LTSP app
<ogra> it was ported during feisty abut you need to do a lot of manual work
<RichEd> oops I was mixing up SchoolTool
<ogra> would be a good project for someone who wants to become a MOTU
<ogra> ah
<ogra> well, schooltool waits for zope3 to be stable
<ogra> which might happen in hardy
<RichEd> ogra: well there was shripani in the channel this past week who has some programming skill
<RichEd> and was keen to assist ... could he be "trained up" or mentored do you think ?
<ogra> ah, nice
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> i was not very active on IRC this week
<ogra> so i missed him
<RichEd> well add it to the spec list if the tool is useful
<RichEd> and i'll see if i can catch him tomorrow
<ogra> nah
<ogra> its not a spec
<RichEd> okay ... so how would we get it started ... just a channel chat or email ?
<ogra> i mean it resembles only what italc or TCM do but uses nonstandard stuff in the backend we wont have in main
<ogra> writing a spec for something to be packagesd for universe doesnt really seem appropriate
<ogra> in the channel is best
<ogra> if i meet him i'll talk to him
<ogra> so my spec proposals now ... what do we pick or drop
<ogra> any suggestions ?
<ogra> none ?
<RichEd> ogra: are those allready in lp ?
<ogra> hey, i dont want to implemnt them all :)
<ogra> nope
<RichEd> well what about making it a mail list question ? to get input and stimulate some traffic ?
<ogra> RichEd, hmm
<RichEd> send out the list, and ask people to send their top 3 ?
<ogra> i fly friday early morning
<ogra> and wont have much time to read mails beyond teh bare minimun during UDS
<ogra> not sure you and i can participate much in such  a discussion
<stgraber> I can probably give a hand with the iTalc/TCM one (having an iTalc install working) but I'll probably be busy with Ubuntu QA and the QA Website during hardy development
<RichEd> i'm happy to process the mail thread ... give people until end of friday to respond ?
<ogra> and tell them not to edit the wiki :)
<RichEd> just a suggestion that a simple "voting stats" may help
<RichEd> no long discussion ... just "My top 3"
<ogra> else we end up with a chaos like on dtrasks site where everyone just puts his bugs up
<ogra> right, something like that
<RichEd> we can still make our own decisions in the end, but have (some) external input
<LaserJock> ogra: I thought your list was good
<ogra> yeah, but i'd like to keep https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Education/UDS-Boston/Overview in a state that we can use it as a base for work during UDS :)
<ogra> its well structured atm
<RichEd> LaserJock: ogra wants to narrow it down ... to how many ogra .. what is a reasonable number ?
<ogra> no idea
<ogra> virtual-hal devices are surely not urget
<RichEd> how many do we have on the list ?
<ogra> just something to show off with in the feature list
<LaserJock> can we just have a list of possibilites with high/medium/low priorities?
<ogra> we had three from dtrask and three from gutsy iirc
<RichEd> well ogra .. how about this ... if you can move the ones on the list into the section -- specs proposed --
<RichEd> then I'll send the mail tomorrow ...
<ogra> LaserJock, i added tags to my specs
<RichEd> to -devel
<ogra> (if the wiki ever saves)
<RichEd> anyone here who wants to send their own priority tags to all of the specs is welcome to send that to me by mail
<ogra> that leaves as high: session management, UME-edu derivative, edubuntu CD discussion, GUI frontends for ltsp-tools , edubuntu-mass-maintenance
<LaserJock> yeah, -devel is actually useful if you use it ;-)
<RichEd> seeing as your input is valued as committed community members :) like LaserJock and stgraber
<ogra> that makes 11
<RichEd> so ... trim it down to say 8 with user input ...
<RichEd> get those 8 into launchpad
<RichEd> and aim to get 6 onto the agenda with a BOF etc ?
<RichEd> are those numbers reasonable ?
<RichEd> 5 mins to close of meeting ... ogra ^ yes/no ?
<ogra> i'm updaing the wikpage with the lists we selected
<RichEd> do we get all 11 into lanchpad or trim as suggested ?
<RichEd> if we decide that we can close for the night
<ogra> have a look
 * RichEd checks
<ogra> i added a proposed list with prio in brackets
<ogra> and added prios to mine
<ogra> i count 8 with high prio
<RichEd> let me refresh ...
<ogra> (note the sabayon one is covered in mass maintannce)
<RichEd> okay ... let me have the page edit for 2 mins ...
<RichEd> ogra: reload & check new section ... proposed - just a list in priority order
<ogra> whats edubuntu ? at the bottom ?
<RichEd> lost & found ... just wiped it :)
<RichEd> then I think we are done ?
<ogra> profile management and "network session management" cover the same imho
 * RichEd raises the hammer to hit the gong ...
<RichEd> while making the suggested edit
<ogra> hit it ... i'll fix
<ogra> ah, k
<ogra> yeah, looks good
<RichEd> i fixed ... combined them
<RichEd> okay ... tamarra i'll send the mail to the devel list
<stgraber> isn't thin-client manager improvements (med) similar to network session management (italc and the like) (hi)
<RichEd> you get working on getting the specs into launchpad
<ogra> well, you wanted to work on TCM :)
<ogra> that justifies a separate spec
 * RichEd waves the hammer threateningly at stgraber 
<RichEd> italc may be a relationship with the developers
<ogra> i wouldnt do anything to TCM but make sure there are no regressions
<ogra> but i wouldnt imrove it for that specific spec
<RichEd> thin-client-manager is our baby
<ogra> right
<ogra> TCM will be covered by both
<RichEd> goingggg once
<RichEd> goingggggggg twice
<ogra> but one is fo its development and one is for its usage :)
 * RichEd looks for hands ?
 * ogra waits for gong 
<ogra> man i'm tired
<ogra> working since 8:00
<RichEd> just this german fellow muttering to this swiss fellow
 * RichEd hits the gong
<ogra> yay
<RichEd> ogra: did a 2 am last night
 * ogra falls asleep immediately
<ogra> zzzZZZZZ
<ogra> :)
<stgraber> yeah, will have to sleep well tonight, I doubt that I'll find time to sleep next one
 * RichEd hears that famous snore
<ogra> RichEd, i'm doing that since cyprus
<stgraber> having flight at 6am and 2hours from the airport :)
<ogra> and there is no relaxing before UDS
<RichEd> g'night all
<ogra> night
<stgraber> night
<RichEd> except at the FOSSCamp bar
<ogra> stgraber, tomorrow already ?
<ogra> right, the bar :)
 * RichEd vainshes in a tear in the fabric of the ether
<stgraber> ogra: nope, early Friday but will have to leave to the airport at 3am
<ogra> luckily your tains go
<ogra> *trains
<stgraber> they don't
<ogra> i'm not yet sure i'll get a proper train friday at 6 :)
<stgraber> My father will bring me to the airport (yeah I'm lucky :))
<ogra> swiss conductors are on strike as well ?
 * ogra cant convince his GF :(
<stgraber> nope but don't expect a train before 6am :)
<ogra> ah, k :)
<ogra> well, i fl out at 11 ... o have to be there around 9
<stgraber> I don't have direct flight, so I'll be at 12 at Newark and 15 at Boston
<ogra> i'm careful with connection flights ...
<ogra> if direct is an opportunity i usually try to take that :)
<stgraber> Had some luggage problems ?
<ogra> only once yet
<ogra> and luckily on return
<ogra> anyway, i need sleep
<ogra> night :)
<stgraber> so do I
<stgraber> night
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 30 Oct 16:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 31 Oct 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu Team | 07 Nov 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu Team | 08 Nov 15:00 UTC: Community Development Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-10-26
<kraut> moin
<flint> @schedule NY
<flint> @schedule New York
<ubotu> Schedule for America/New_York: 30 Oct 12:00: Kernel Team | 31 Oct 08:00: Edubuntu Team | 07 Nov 15:00: Edubuntu Team | 08 Nov 10:00: Community Development Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-10-28
<calc> Hobbsee: hi
<Hobbsee> hiya
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-10-20
<afflux> PriceChild: I saw you listed in the emea-board. Since the date on the wiki page was last week, are there any plans on the next meeting?
<PriceChild> afflux: discussing it atm
<afflux> cool, thanks!
<afflux> I'm not in a hurry ;)
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-10-21
<ziroday> @time Singapore
<ubottu> Current time in Asia/Singapore: October 21 2008, 14:48:37 - Next meeting: Community Council in 4 hours 11 minutes
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Community Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Oct 14:00: Technical Board | 21 Oct 15:00: Server Team | 21 Oct 17:00: Kernel Team | 22 Oct 17:00: QA Team | 22 Oct 22:00: Platform Team
<dholbach> hi elmo
<dholbach> I pinged mako, sabdfl won't make it
<dholbach> Technoviking: are you up already? :-)
<dholbach> Burgundavia is not around yet
<dholbach> and mdke won't be able to attend, he's at work
<dholbach> only item on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda is: 'Is there a need to coin a new phrase for an "Ubuntero"? discussion'
<dholbach> there's a few suggestions on bug 272826 already
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 272826 in ubuntu ""Ubuntero" inappropriate for female contributors" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/272826
<dholbach> if we can't reach quorum, I'd be happy to chase up everybody and come to a conclusion on the bug itself
<dholbach> elmo: WDYT?
<elmo> sorry, just finishing up another meeting
<dholbach> let's wait a few then, np
<elmo> dholbach: since we're clearly not quorum, I think chasing it out of band is probably a good idea
<elmo> (unless anyone here has anything to contribute right now)
<dholbach> I personally wouldn't mind getting the input of all CC members on this one instead of just the input of the few who could make it
<james_w> I have a question about something that I may raise at a later point, if you'll allow me.
<dholbach> james_w: sure, go ahead
<james_w> If we are unhappy with the behaviour of someone on launchpad, would that be a matter for the CC, or the LP admins?
<dholbach> james_w: did somebody try talking to that person already? was there any of the team councils involved in discussions already?
<dholbach> generally, I'd prefer if we can reach out and talk to people before LP admins start deactivating accounts or something
<james_w> I haven't asked around much yet, I'm not sure that there is an appropriate team council, hence asking the CC
<james_w> oh yeah, it was more a question of whether the CC would just direct me straight to the LP admins to discuss it with them.
<dholbach> james_w: could you mail some details to the CC list about it?
<james_w> sure, it's a private list?
<dholbach> yes
<james_w> cool
<dholbach> community-council@lists.u.c
<dholbach> thanks a lot james_w
<james_w> It's not got to stay private if I pursue it, but I don't want to risk tarnishing the person's name at this point
<dholbach> as I said, I'd be happier if we start reaching out first
<dholbach> OK, let's adjourn the meeting - I'll chase up everybody to express their opinions on the bug report itself
<dholbach> thanks elmo
<james_w> thanks dholbach
<Rafik> dholbach, if you have time, i'd like to have some advices from you
<dholbach> Rafik: is this something you want the Community Council to think about or is this unrelated to the CC?
<Rafik> this is also a question i'd like to ask :)
<Rafik> i'm writing, in private
<dholbach> ok, ask your question :)
<dholbach> ah ok
<dholbach> thanks
<Rafik> thank you
 * dholbach will update the CC's TeamReport
<dholbach> Adjourned.
<dholbach> see you around :)
<lifeless> dholbach: lp admins don't like disabling accounts either
<lifeless> dholbach: FWIW :)
<dholbach> lifeless: I know
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Oct 14:00: Technical Board | 21 Oct 15:00: Server Team | 21 Oct 17:00: Kernel Team | 22 Oct 17:00: QA Team | 22 Oct 22:00: Platform Team | 22 Oct 23:00: Forum Council
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Technical Board Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Oct 15:00: Server Team | 21 Oct 17:00: Kernel Team | 22 Oct 17:00: QA Team | 22 Oct 22:00: Platform Team | 22 Oct 23:00: Forum Council
<davidbarth> elmo: ping?
<mdz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 08:59. The chair is mdz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mdz> Keybuk: ping
<Keybuk> mdz: here, on the phone
<mdz> Keybuk: ETA?
<mdz> sabdfl will not be attending the meeting, so it is just us
<mdz> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<mdz> [TOPIC] Upload rights for pre-MOTUs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Upload rights for pre-MOTUs
<mdz> recently, we've started to explore the possibility of granting upload privileges at a fine-grained (package) level
<mdz> for example, allowing a MOTU to upload certain packages to main in advance of becoming a core developer
<mdz> this has been broadly well received, and while there is some work to be done on policy and documentation, it is reasonably straightforward to offer this
<mdz> perhaps as a result of this, we've also now started to receive inquiries about upload privileges from people who are not Ubuntu developers at all (but may be Debian developers), who want to be able to upload certain packages
<mdz> this is not at all as straightforward
<mdz> MOTUs can be reasonably expected to have a good working knowledge of the Ubuntu project, its policies and procedures, as validated by the MOTU council
<mdz> fine-grained upload privileges for packages in main are a natural extension of t his
<mdz> however, for someone who is new to the Ubuntu project, we have no assurance of this
<mdz> the consensus in the tech board was that, since these amount to requests to fast-track or bypass the existing process, we needed to discuss this with the MOTU council in order to take a view
<james_w> why is sponsorship not an option in these cases? It ensures there is someone who is familiar with the project looking at each upload.
<mdz> I haven't received feedback from the MOTU council on this yet, but have asked to schedule a meeting with representation from both the technical board and the MOTU council
<mdz> james_w: I think it absolutely is an option, but it is not what has been requested of us
<persia> MOTU Council has been discussing this, but has not yet reached consensus.
<james_w> yes, sorry, why do these people feel that sponsorship is not sufficient for them? Do you know?
<mdz> it's possible that there is a communication gap, and that the requestors are not aware of all of the options; I haven't investigated that thoroughly
<mdz> we are (I am) a bit backlogged lately on TB issues and have been slow to process this
<persia> james_w, It's to cover the case where someone routinely does *all* the uploads of only one or two packages.  A historical example would be Yokozar, who eventually became MOTU, but only after much discussion.
<mdz> I think there's no question that we want to find ways for people in this situation, who want to contribute, to do so
<mdz> these are, based on the examples I've seen, people who have demonstrated competency in packaging (e.g. in Debian) and are interested in similar work in Ubuntu
<mdz> it may be that, simply because they are accustomed to working in a per-package manner in Debian, they come to Ubuntu looking for a similar arrangement
<mdz> whereas we more easily accommodate developers who are interested in contributing to the system as a whole
<persia> From what loose consensus is present in MC, I can say that we view it typically as an exception, with sponsoring being more common.  We don't want to encourage an adoption of general per-package maintenance.
<mdz> such people may be put off by our descriptions of what a MOTU or core-dev does, because it is broader than their interests
<james_w> I can understand not wanting to go through the MOTU application process and all the work that that involves if they only have an interest in one package
<mdz> persia: why not? (I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but am interested in the rationale)
<james_w> but if we are going to let them upload that package without supervision then why not just have a sponsor do cursory checks, that the package is appropriate for the point in the release cycle, etc?
<persia> mdz, I can't speak for the council for rationale, but personally, I believe it is a perception of value of a team approach, and wanting to continue to avoid the concept of maintainer-lock.
<james_w> In the case of Roman, he was sponsored by siretart, who made the request for the upload rights, so was the sponsorship requirement slowing things down?
<mdz> james_w: perhaps the sponsorship process can be a bit cumbersome compared to directly uploading (filing bugs, attaching patches, etc.)
<mdz> james_w: if only we just had everything in revision control so it could be easily reviewed and merged...;-)
<james_w> if only... :-)
<mdz> persia: I think avoiding maintainer-lock continues to be desirable and healthy, but does it actually conflict with what these developers want?
<mdz> persia: is there an indication that they would expect to have an exclusive lock on that package?
<james_w> I think not, as long as it is clear to them that they don't.
<persia> mdz, The concept of exclusive lock has been discussed previously by regular serial uploaders, but I have not heard of any expectation for either the current candidates or the historical cases.
<mdz> we should certainly try to avoid clashing of uploads etc., but that seems orthogonal to whether someone happens to work on one package or many
<persia> Again, I'm sharing some portions of a pre-consensus state, so it's certainly not complete.
<persia> Certainly.  As much as anything it's about documenting the right properly.
<mdz> after all, we could easily have the same problem with two MOTUs, for example, and it may have even happened before
<dholbach> I personally think it's fine that people will upload one package or packages of a certain genre, but when they apply for the 3rd or 4th time (for another package or another set), they probably have enough experience to join MOTU instead
<persia> Or if not, something else probably went wrong.
<mdz> if I ask the question: would Ubuntu be better off with these uploads than without them? the answer seems clearly to be yes
<mdz> but there are valid concerns about the process
<persia> Except in rare cases, "Yes" is the likely answer.
<mdz> as dholbach points out, we do want to encourage and enable people to make a broader contribution if their interests expand
<james_w> in the first case I understand why the person isn't pursuing rights to upload these packages to Debian, but can't we encourage most people to contribute their work on single packages to Debian through the DM scheme?
<Keybuk> for me, the question is more: if we allow someone access to upload one package in universe, why wouldn't we allow them access to upload any?
<mdz> however, if they've been uploading on their own, they won't have received any feedback, and how will we evaluate whether they should be accepted into MOTU?
<persia> james_w, Some packages need to have persisting variance.  A common solution to embed this in the source in a sync-compatible way is yet to be well advertised.
<mdz> sponsorship is not just about enabling contributions; it's what gives us insight into the quality of someone's work
<dholbach> Keybuk: from a process point of view they will have a harder time to demonstrate their technical ability when they just worked on one package
<persia> Especially for a package with a particularly well behaved upstream.
<james_w> persia: ok, but to me that just makes the cases where this would be appropriate be even more exceptional.
<Keybuk> how do they demonstrate their technical ability to work on that package in the first palce?
<mdz> it's interesting that the requests are coming from Debian developers.  in some sense, they could just request syncs rather than upload
<persia> james_w, Correct.
<Keybuk> mdz: I wonder how much of this is the need for a sense of ownership
<Keybuk> and maintainer lock
<mdz> Keybuk: I do as well
<mdz> perhaps what we need to do is talk to them about what they're really after
<dholbach> Keybuk: in cases of people who just care for one or two packages (let's call them "upstream MOTUs"), I'm more intersted how much they really maintain (in the true sense of the word) the package: work on bugs, work on forwarding them upstream talking to upstream, etc.
<mdz> I took the requests at face value at first, but the discussion is leading me to want to dig deeper
<dholbach> Keybuk: if the end result is that they upload simply new upstream versions with less bugs, I'm happy :)
<Keybuk> dholbach: why can't we do that within the bounds of the existing sponsorship process
<Keybuk> and use that as proof of their technical ability to become a full MOTU?
<mdz> Keybuk: because, as dholbach points out, their work on a single package might not provide enough information for the MC's selection process
<dholbach> Keybuk: we have done that before (YokoZar is a good example) - it turned out to take longer to demonstrate experience with packaging, etc.
<mdz> Keybuk: someone who just serially uploads new upstream versions wouldn't really demonstrate much ability
<persia> YokoZar is the perfect example of the sort that we want to use such a mechanism.  For Debian developers, it's a little more confusing why they would want it.
<Keybuk> someone who just serially uploads new upstream versions, to my mind, requires sponsorship to ensure they're following our procedures and policies
<Keybuk> they're unlikely to be reading our mailing lists, learning about our changes and habits
<Q-FUNK> ?
<mdz> Q-FUNK: thanks for joining us
<ScottK> persia: I think Yokozar is more an example of people thinking it wasn't possible to be MOTU based on experience with a single package.
<persia> Keybuk, That's one of the reasons why many uploads to a small number of packages has historically not been a good path to MOTUship.
<persia> ScottK, Yes, but it would have been nice to let him upload wine a year or so before he became MOTU.
<Q-FUNK> mdz: I was just pointed to the agenda.  let's continue.
<mdz> Q-FUNK: it would help us discuss the issues if you could tell us about your reasons for wanting upload rights to Ubuntu: what do you want to do in Ubuntu?
<ScottK> persia: My vote would have been to make him MOTU the first time he applied, but we're wondering off the topic I guess.
<Q-FUNK> mdz: understood.  it mainly is that SRU for packages I maintain, especially the Geode X driver and dictionaries, keep on lagging behind when it coes to uploading fixes.
<Q-FUNK> so far, SRU diffs tend to be approved quickly, bjut there's always ubuntu+1 to prepare, which means that Hardy work lags behind.
<mdz> Q-FUNK: that's interesting and unexpected
<mdz> Q-FUNK: so you actually don't plan to work on the current development branch at all, you only want to upload SRUs?
<Q-FUNK> it would thus be simpler if I could upload approved SRU directly, rather than wait for X and language pack teams to find a minute away from ubuntu+1 and upload for me.
<Q-FUNK> mdz: I might get involved on the development branches too, whenever appropriate.
<Q-FUNK> my main concern is with how too many SRU remain unuploaded for too long and how it prevent hardware support issues from being adressed in a timely manner.
<mdz> Q-FUNK: ok, that's a very different issue then, and one which wouldn't be very well addressed by an upload ACL
<Q-FUNK> my secondary concern is with things like http://packages.qa.debian.org/r/rus-ispell/news/20081002T091712Z.html requiring swift actions on development branches too.
<mdz> Q-FUNK: if SRUs take too long, then an ACL would only solve that problem for you, not for anyone else
<Q-FUNK> for the above debia bug (also affects intrepid), dholbach already replied that the required build-dep wasn't in intrepid yet for this to be fixed.
<mdz> if those contributions aren't being reviewed and sponsored effectively, I would rather fix that underlying problem than try to work around it
<Q-FUNK> mdz: that would also work.  agreed.  personally, I see that X and kernel driver issues for LTS releases often remain unanswered for too long, or receive generic "try our latest and greates upcoming release" boilerplate replies which solve nothing.
<mdz> it's true that a great majority of our work is focused on the upcoming release rather than maintenance of stable releases
<mdz> I don't think there's a good focal point for that work either, such as a stable maintenance team
<Q-FUNK> one thing that I would like to see is a team that is dedicated to LTS release issues, such as SRU and unanswered kernel driver bugs.  if I can contribute anythingto that by taking the lead, I'd love to.
<Q-FUNK> sync :)
<mdz> I think it would be a good idea to bring together developers who are particularly interested in LTS maintenance
<Q-FUNK> that's an issue I already mentioned to mpitt and hemo at IDS Intrepid in Prague. LTS needs its own dedicated team.
<mdz> dholbach: what do you think about that?
<dholbach> mdz: I think it makes perfect sense
<Q-FUNK> not directly related and more of a btw than anything else:
<Q-FUNK> rushing gvfs into Hardy, when it's meant as an LTS release and gvfs was still uncooked, also relates to the sort of separate agenda I think would matter for LTS releases.
<persia> I'd also rather see more focus generally on stable updates than using ACLs to work around the issue.
<dholbach> we have lots of people who start doing development and think about "how do I fix <bug X> in <old release>?", people who triage those bugs, etc
<mdz> Q-FUNK: let's take one thing at a time and try to stay on topic
<Q-FUNK> any way I can be made to start or launch an LTS maintenance team, with guidance from existing core-dev, then?
<mdz> we have several more agenda items we need to cover
<Q-FUNK> Ã¶Ã¶.. start or join
<Q-FUNK> ok
<mdz> dholbach: would you be able to spend some time helping to set up such a team and gather people interested in stable maintenance?
<Q-FUNK> can we put the issue of a separate LTS team for the next meeting, then?
<dholbach> mdz: I'll get working on that
<mdz> Q-FUNK: you can work with dholbach on that, I think it's a fine idea.  The question of what goes into an LTS release is a separate one, though, and can't be dealt with by a single team as it affects everyone
<Q-FUNK> dholbach: please keep me in the loop by e-mail.  I do debian/ubuntu work in my spare time and don't follow the mailing lists. :)
<mdz> dholbach: ok, thank you
<dholbach> Q-FUNK: will do
 * dholbach hugs mdz
<Q-FUNK> cheers! :)
<mdz> [ACTION] dholbach to work on setting up a stable maintenance team and gathering interested developers
<MootBot> ACTION received:  dholbach to work on setting up a stable maintenance team and gathering interested developers
 * Q-FUNK hugs dholbach
 * dholbach hugs Q-FUNK back
<mdz> siretart: are you here?
<ogra> mdz, skipped stgraber ?
<mdz> I'm curious about the circumstances of the emacs-snapshot case as well
<mdz> ogra: I haven't skipped anything, we are on the very first agenda item
<mdz> ogra: and 45 minutes into the meeting
<ogra> oh, i thought that was done :)
<ogra> (with aboves action)
<mdz> ogra: siretart requested a similar arrangement for emacs-snapshot for Romain Francoise
<ogra> ah
<ogra> sorry ...
<mdz> in that case, the rationale was also to avoid sponsorship delays
 * ogra crawls back into corner keeping quiet
<mdz> "Granting him upload access to ubuntu for this package would eliminate sync delays to intrepid"
<mdz> dholbach: could you try to find out the cause of the delays and whether there is a better way around this?
<mdz> we need to move on, I'll respond to Reinhard by email
<mdz> [ACTION] mdz to follow up on Reinhard Tartler's request for emacs-snapshot upload ACL for Romain Francoise
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mdz to follow up on Reinhard Tartler's request for emacs-snapshot upload ACL for Romain Francoise
<dholbach> mdz: I'll do that
<mdz> [TOPIC] Limited main upload rights for Stephane Graber
<MootBot> New Topic:  Limited main upload rights for Stephane Graber
 * ogra crawls back out of the corner :)
<mdz> [LINK] https://edge.launchpad.net/~stgraber
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://edge.launchpad.net/~stgraber
<mdz> the list of packages is italc, ltsp, ltspfs, ldm
<ogra> stgraber would like to take over ltsp maintenance from me, he now works full time for a company on ltsp so can demote more time to it than i even can remotely
<ogra> i think the recent intrepid uploads alone i sponsored for him prove the quality of his packaging skill (all went in untouched by me) and his interest
<mdz> ogra: I thought stgraber was already a MOTU
<stgraber> nope
<stgraber> I only have one of my package in Universe and this one is now in Debian so I never had the need to upload something in Universe for a release or so
<mdz> ogra: have you considered recommending him for MOTU?
<ogra> i sponsor his uploads since a year or so regulary
<stgraber> (and so never felt the need of asking for MOTU as I don't think someone uploading only a single package should get MOTU membership)
<stgraber> (a single package in Universe that's)
<ScottK> Based on recent feedback for other candidates, I think it likely he'd get rejected for exactly that reason.
<ogra> the main interest was to get him upload rights for ltsp and friends far *before* RC which sadly didnt happen yet, but ltsp really suffers from me having not enouch time for it
<mdz> hmm, I thought we'd avoid another lengthy topic, but it sounds like perhaps not
<stgraber> ScottK: yeah, why I never asked :) I work for a company doing LTSP and educational stuff so my interest is in LTSP, iTalc and educational packages and all of these are in Main, not Universe
<ogra> i wil have even less time for ltsp in jaunty by the looks of it, since ubuntu-mobile suddely gains lots of community attention
<mdz> I think that scope of packaging work is not a good reason to reject someone for MOTU
<Keybuk> knee-jerk reaction: I'd prefer not to short-cut someone straight into main, bypassing universe, and only with an ACL for a couple of packages
<mdz> in and of itself
<Q-FUNK> sounds like the problem I encountered a couple of years back.  working on packages that are mostly in main, but only on these packages and not on ubuntu as a whole.
<ScottK> mdz: I agree, but that's what MC has been doing.
<Keybuk> again, the reasons for having MOTU are not just technical, but a matter of community and practice as well
<ogra> on a sidenote i'd like to point out that sabdfl gave a +1 by mail on the initial request sent to the TB ... though there wasnt the above discussion back then
<mdz> if a developer does good quality work, and understands Ubuntu development practices well enough to be granted unsupervised upload rights, why should they not be MOTUs?
<ogra> mdz, is tkamppeter MOTU ?
<persia> Not any more.
 * ogra wasnt aware
<mdz> ogra: yes
<persia> still?
<mdz> Joined on 2007-12-12
<Keybuk> persia: he is still a member of that team
<mdz> persia: he was temporarily core-dev with a limited mandate for certain packages, and that was migrated to an ACL
<persia> Why was that not changed when he was removed from core-dev?  Does that require separate action?
<persia> Alternately, is there a reason that the TB believes he shoud be MOTU?
<mdz> persia: till was approved as a MOTU ages ago, there is no reason to question that
<persia> Well, I questioned it then, but I'll quiesce about it again.
<mdz> persia: he was accepted as a MOTU ages before the ACL change
<Keybuk> persia: I'm confused
<mdz> persia: the MOTU council recommended him for core-dev in fact, but the TB elected to go with a more limited grant
<Keybuk> are you questioning his right to be a MOTU?
<Keybuk> are you questioning his conduct as a MOTU?
<Keybuk> or are you suggesting that anyone granted core-dev should lose their MOTU membership?
<mdz> this is completely off-topic I'm afraid
<ogra> yes
<persia> I'm not formally questioning his conduct.  It's off topic.
<mdz> to come back to stgraber, I feel that the right thing to do is to support him in joining MOTU
<ogra> and doesnt solve the prob that the massively regressed quality of ltsp in hardy got is a very bad community reputation which s the main point of my request
<persia> Forgetting the specifics, the question is really: is "MOTU" a wide group of developers, some of whom never upload to universe, or the set of people who upload to universe, who participate as part of the development team?
<persia> Essentially, while stgraber could apply for MOTU, if he's only working on main packages, the definition of MOTU in the eyes of the TB is important if the TB is expecting MOTUship prior to his grant.
<ogra> there is a person who is willing to take care, has the skills and provides good quality packaging for it which is would like to be able to upload on his own
<mdz> persia: it is both (hence the implicit membership core-dev has in MOTU)
<ogra> *which is why
 * mathiaz waves
<kirkland> o/^
<Keybuk> mdz: more accurately, ubuntu-core-dev and motu are both members of the ubuntu-dev team
<ogra> the quality of intrepid is far beyond the one in hardy only because of stgraber
<Keybuk> ogra: and that is to be commended
<ogra> and my time is more and more limited to mobile tasks
<mdz> stgraber has positive feedback from his sponsor, has demonstrated commitment to the project...why shouldn't he be considered?
<Keybuk> and it sounds that both mdz and I would support his application to MOTU
<ogra> which ends up in sponsored uploads being delayed etc
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Server Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Oct 17:00: Kernel Team | 22 Oct 17:00: QA Team | 22 Oct 22:00: Platform Team | 22 Oct 23:00: Forum Council
<Keybuk> and would be surprised if the MC did not
<persia> Keybuk, Which makes me wonder about requiring (or expecting) MOTU for those who don't touch universe.
 * kirkland finds this conversation very familiar
<Keybuk> persia: MOTU is also a training ground
<mdz> well, I can't take a stance first-hand on his application, I'm only comparing superficially to other applications I've seen approved by the MOTU Council
<Q-FUNK> mdz: if I may pop my head out for a second, I face a similar issue. I focus on maintaining specific packages, most of which are in main, thus why MOTU would be a nice test of community spirit, it does not come with the right upload rights to focus on packages in main.
<Keybuk> Q-FUNK: that is deliberate
<Q-FUNK> Ã¶Ã¶.. s/why/while
<persia> Keybuk, I understand, but it's about the shape of the graph.  Ubuntu-dev = <MOTU> + <core-dev> is different than <MOTU> = <non-core> + <core>
<nijaba> o/
<mdz> persia: I suppose it depends on whether you see it as a responsibility or a privilege
<ogra> well, it depends how the motu council sees it :)
<Keybuk> persia: I don't see that there's any difference
<ogra> imho you are expected to at least help with merges and syncs at the beginning of a cycle if you are motu
<Q-FUNK> Keybuk: right, except that getting MOTU status gives me rights to upload to somewhere my packages don't belong, which is useless to me.  heck, as a direct result, I cannot prove my deeds by starting in universe so, by default, never get to ACL or core-dev to take care of my packages in main.
<persia> mdz, Yes.  I'm personally flexible either way, but I think either it should be explicit that MOTU is not necessarily related to universe, or there should not be an expectation of MOTUship for those applying for limited upload to main.
<stgraber> well, I actually never thought I should apply for MOTUship because I'm not touching any package in Universe anymore, so getting Universe upload right wouldn't make any difference, I would just wait some months and ask again for main upload rights
<ogra> which means that there are responsibilities coming with the privilege
<sommer> hey all
<mdz> persia: I think the "developer" aspect of MOTU is (should be?) much more important than the "universe" aspect
<Keybuk> mdz: you named it ;)
<dendrobates> The server team community meeting should have started 3 min. ago, can this discussion be moved to another channel?
<ogra> but there is a community requirement going hand in hand
<Q-FUNK> is work in main less of a community effort?
<ogra> .oO(wasnt the TB booked for 2h ?)
<mdz> ogra: once upon a time it was
<ogra> ah
<mdz> ogra: mathiaz asked me if I saw a conflict between TB and the server team meeting at this time, and I said no
<ogra> we have to many teams if it gets tight in -meeting :)
<mdz> because we'd been finishing on time for quite a while
<persia> mdz, OK.  I just wonder if upload access to universe is useful for those that do not intend to use it.  I'm happy focusing on development and ignoring universe.  Thanks for the clarification.
<mdz> it looks like I was wrong
<Keybuk> persia: you're not looking at the motu team in the same way we do
<Q-FUNK> persia: same here.
<mdz> persia: I think we need to take this to email and involve a lot more people
<persia> Keybuk, Right, which is why I sought clarification.
<mdz> persia: I'd prefer to ask the question of MOTUs what the team means to them than to have the TB issue some official decree
<Keybuk> persia: for us, grant of the privilege to upload to "main" - the set of packages installed by default on many people's machines and their related packages, is a privilege earned by demonstrating good work in the rest of the archive
<mdz> [ACTION] mdz to start a discussion thread on the role of the MOTU team in the project and implications for new developers joining
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mdz to start a discussion thread on the role of the MOTU team in the project and implications for new developers joining
<persia> Keybuk, That makes sense to me.  It doesn't make sense for the cases of Till or stgraber, where that isn't expected to happen.
<mdz> dendrobates: I will finish up here very shortly
<persia> Email is probably better.
<mdz> [TOPIC] Approach to ffmpeg in ubuntu, cf. siretart's email to technical-board@
<MootBot> New Topic:  Approach to ffmpeg in ubuntu, cf. siretart's email to technical-board@
<Keybuk> persia: Till was a MOTU before he was granted limited core-dev
<persia> It was never exercised.
<mdz> siretart has asked the technical board for a policy statement regarding codecs in ffmpeg in Ubuntu
<Q-FUNK> Keybuk: this mostly makes sense, except that the packages I work on are those I already maintian at Debian and they already are in main.  what to do, then?
<ogra> persia, it has to have been exercised if he became a MOTU
<Keybuk> Q-FUNK: how would you maintain them differently in Ubuntu than you do in Debian?
<ogra> persia, how else would he have become motu ;)
<mdz> unsurprisingly, the TB are not legal experts or familiar with the alleged intellectual property claims
<mdz> Keybuk: please, let's take it to email and free up the channel for the server team
<mdz> so I've sought advice from Canonical's legal counsel and will respond when I have more information
<Q-FUNK> Keybuk: similar methods, but more community-oriented in Ubuntu - since there's no package ownership per se in Ubuntu.
<mdz> [TOPIC] cdrtools update
<MootBot> New Topic:  cdrtools update
<mdz> we seem to be very close to a cdrtools package which has Eben Moglen's blessing
<ogra> wow
<mdz> we're just waiting for a few final clarifications from Eben and from Joerg
<Keybuk> mdz: which worries me ;)
<Keybuk> I'm not sure which immovable force has been moved
<mdz> assuming the two of them can be satisfied with the same text, we will be able to go ahead
<mdz> Keybuk: I can tell you about that later
<mdz> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<mdz> any urgent business before we turn over to dendrobates?
<mdz> ok, thanks all
<mdz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:12.
<mdz> dendrobates: apologies for running over
 * nealmcb figures AOB is Any Other Business :)
<zul> hello
<mathiaz> mdz: np
<mathiaz> let's get the server team meeting started
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:13. The chair is mathiaz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<nealmcb> o/
<nijaba> o/
<Koon> \o
<mathiaz> Today's exceptional agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<mathiaz> Last week minutes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20081014
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] python-vm-builder
<MootBot> New Topic:  python-vm-builder
<mathiaz> So I've started to look at python-vm-builder.
<mathiaz> And did a lot of testing.
<mathiaz> Things are in good shape. The last bit I'm testing is the ec2 plugin.
<mathiaz> I'm able to boot an instance, but not able to ssh in
<zul> did you install ssh?
<mathiaz> nijaba: thanks for all the hard work you've put in fixing the bugs
<mathiaz> zul: yes.
<mathiaz> zul: I may ask some help later on this part.
<nijaba> mathiaz: a learning treasure and pleasure while soren was away
<zul> mathiaz: okies
<mathiaz> soren: did you have some time to review all the changes to vmbuilder?
<mathiaz> soren: do you want to do the upload?
<soren> I'd like to to the upload, but I've not caught up yet.
<soren> I still have 25 commits to look through.
<mathiaz> soren: ok - the deadline is thursday
 * soren nods
<mathiaz> soren: IMO we'll have to ask for a FFe as we're introducing the ec2 public.;
<mathiaz> soren: other than that everything looks like bug fixes
<zul> soren: yeah nijaba has been a busy little beaver
<soren> mathiaz: Sort of.
<soren> mathiaz: The ec2 plugin is already in the version in the archive.
<nijaba> mathiaz: ec2 plugin was there in v2
<mathiaz> ah - hm- ok then
<nijaba> mathiaz: we added missing parameters, to fix bugs
<mathiaz> then I don't think we've added new features
<nijaba> mathiaz: I had to refrain myself ;)
<mathiaz> that's all I have on vmbuilder
<mathiaz> zul: nijaba: anything else?
<nijaba> mathiaz: nope
<ScottK> So is the ec2-ami-tools upload that was just done only bugfix?
<zul> nope
<zul> mathiaz: nope
<zul> the ec2-ami-tools was the tools for ec2
<nijaba> ScottK: but this had its own ffe
<mathiaz> ScottK: which upload?
<ScottK> New package: ec2-ami-tools (multiverse) [1.3-26357-0ubuntu3 â 1.3-26357-0ubuntu4]
<ScottK> The ubuntu4 one
<zul> thats me...I just uploaded a typo fix in a patch
<ScottK> zul: OK.  I'll ask to get it accepted then.
<zul> k thanks
<mathiaz> ok. There are other things than need to be fixed.
<mathiaz> zul: what did you fix?
<zul> mathiaz: the upload bundle ruby script was pointing to the wrong directory
<mathiaz> I've noticed that there is a curl dependency missing as well as a fix in the point-to-right-location patch
<mathiaz> zul: ok - that's the second fix I'm talking about
<mathiaz> ScottK: I'll do another upload to fix the curl dependency
<zul> uhhh...ok
<mathiaz> that's all from last week minutes
<mathiaz> anything else to add?
<mathiaz> nope - let's move on
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] iscsi support for interpid
<MootBot> New Topic:  iscsi support for interpid
<mathiaz> kirkland: ^^?
<kirkland> mathiaz: per dendrobates, this is too late for intrepid
<mathiaz> kirkland: ok.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Iso testing
<nijaba> kirkland: so we did not make any progress since the support provided n hardy, right.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Iso testing
<kirkland> nijaba: not that i'm aware
<kirkland> nijaba: i have had almost zero cycles to devote iscsi
<nijaba> kirkland: np, just wanted to be sure`
<mathiaz> so iso candidates for RC have been published
<mathiaz> and testing them is welcomed
<mathiaz> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/
<mathiaz> this is the place where we track our results
<nijaba> mathiaz: I've added a couple test cases for JeOS/F4
<mathiaz> test cases have been updated
<mathiaz> nijaba: when?
<nijaba> mathiaz: last week
<mathiaz> nijaba: ok - they've been added to the tracker now
<nijaba> mathiaz: yes they have
<mathiaz> we have 14 test cases to cover for 2 isos
<mathiaz> I've got some more testing scenarios, especially related to raid installation
<mathiaz> as of now I was only able to do one raid installation that was successful (raid1 on i386)
<mathiaz> all the others have failed
<mathiaz> so if someone could also do some test on raid install that would be helpful
<sommer> I should have some time to do raid on i386
<mathiaz> sommer: try to do a manual install of raid0 and raid5 then
<sommer> sure
<mathiaz> sommer: if you have enough hd for raid5 of course
<sommer> mathiaz: I think I should
<mathiaz> I'm doing all my tests with vms
<mathiaz> sommer: I'd like to know if this is an issue with virtualization or with the installer
<kirkland> mathiaz: ?
<kirkland> mathiaz: raid installs are failing?
<mathiaz> kirkland: yes - automated raid installs are failing
<soren> .(
<kirkland> mathiaz: and manual raid installs?
<mathiaz> kirkland: amd64 fails because the partitions are wrong (while i386 with the same setup works)
 * kirkland downloading iso's now
<mathiaz> kirkland: haven't tried manual raid installs
<mathiaz> testing manual raid install would be helpful
<kirkland> i'm on it
<mathiaz> kirkland: and then i386 raid0 and raid5 get the installer stuck
<mathiaz> anyway - that's what I had to say wrt to iso testing.
<mathiaz> of course if you have hardware available testing a bare-bone install is welcome (making sure the hw is correctly supported)
<kirkland> my tests will be on vm's
<kirkland> mathiaz: but i'll test manual raid on amd64
<kirkland> mathiaz: raid1, raid0, raid5
<mathiaz> kirkland: awesome - thanks.
<mathiaz> kirkland: let me know of the results.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] RC bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  RC bugs
<mathiaz> anyone discovered Release Critical bugs?
<Koon> nope
<mathiaz> ok - keep searching then ;)
<Koon> I will.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] ubuntu-server-devel channel
<MootBot> New Topic:  ubuntu-server-devel channel
<mathiaz> nijaba: ^^
<mathiaz> seems that traffic is increasing in #ubuntu-server
<nijaba> I was wondering if now would be a good time to create a separate server channel for devel
<mathiaz> and it may be worth creating a -devel channel for ubuntu-server
<mathiaz> what do people think about this?
<nijaba> I feel sorry for user asking for help when we are chatting about devel and not answering their question
<kirkland> hmm....
<ScottK> nijaba: Alternatively they'd just get silence.
<nijaba> at the same time it may divide our community
<nijaba> ScottK: right...
<ScottK> I think the problem isn't needing a different channel, but needing more people willing to answer support questions.
<kirkland> i'd say move that particular conversation to #ubuntu-devel, if it's a problem
<nealmcb> I don't notice an overload of traffic, and with server users they often are interested in some devel topics also. but I could go either way
<ScottK> Personally, if you split the channel, I'd just be on -devel
<kirkland> my gut reaction is to wince at another irc channel
<nijaba> ok, bad idea then
<kirkland> i agree with ScottK's note that "answering support questions" is a real issue
 * nealmcb nods
<sommer> seems like they pick up as release date gets closer
<nijaba> most of us do, when we can, but it is not always the highest prio
<kirkland> nijaba: right... and too many questions are flamebait and traps
 * nealmcb has been working around the clock on electionaudits so has been less helpful recently
<kirkland> nijaba: seems that some people just want to the opportunity to tell a bunch of linux developers, "Fine, I'm going back to Windows/Mac/BSD"
<ScottK> I find it odd they think that would bother us.
<nijaba> kirkland: I'm not talking about *these*
<kirkland> nijaba: ;-)
<mathiaz> nijaba: IIUC your main concert is that questions are not answered while conversation is ongoing
<mathiaz> nijaba: and that seems rude to the person asking for help
<Koon> mathiaz: yep
<nijaba> yes, gives me a strange feeling to ignore these guys
<kirkland> nijaba: i can see that....
<Koon> though that strange feeling migt not be worth risking more splitting of an already-thin community
<nijaba> Koon: point fully taken
<Koon> but I'm balanced.
<nealmcb> yeah, it is easier when it is just totally silent and they can reread the topic :/
<mathiaz> nijaba: one option would be to give a more generic answer to eh user
<mathiaz> !volunter
<ubottu> Sorry, I don't know anything about volunter
<mathiaz> !volunteer
<ubottu> Sorry, I don't know anything about volunteer
<mathiaz> hm - there is such an answer in ubotu
<mathiaz> I don't remember the correct key though
<mathiaz> !patience
<ubottu> The people here are volunteers, your attitude should reflect that. Answers are not always available. See http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines
<nealmcb> :)
<ScottK> Of course that's not entirely accurate.  Not all are volunteers.
<ScottK> Are any of the Canonical server team tasked with answering support questions in #ubuntu-server?
<sommer> IRC volunteers... sort of :)
<soren> And answer are also always available. We're just keeping them secret.
<nealmcb> right - if it noted that user support is on a volunteer basis that might be clearer
<ScottK> Right.  Because our jobs depend on keeping the secrets ;-)
<nealmcb> lol
<kirkland> ScottK: Canonical sells support
<ScottK> kirkland: I understand that.
<kirkland> ScottK: none of us are tasked as community support volunteers
<kirkland> ScottK: we do what we can, when we can to help
<ScottK> As I'd expected, but I wanted to actually know rather than guess.
<nijaba> but I do spend, as well of others, spend a lot of personal time one the chan
<ScottK> Agreed.
<mathiaz> all right -so it seems that creating another -devel channel is not really a good solution to the stated problem
<nealmcb> so a factoid to reflect that might help - giving alternatives etc
<nijaba> nealmcb: sounds like a good plan
<mathiaz> isn't the topic already good on that point?
<kirkland> a little verbose, if anything ;-)
<nijaba> mathiaz: lots do not even read it, a factoid is more visible
<mathiaz> kirkland: right - the second link to asking smart question may be removed
<Koon> -ChanServ- [#ubuntu-server] Ubuntu Server Discussions (development and, sometimes, support)
<mathiaz> ok - let's move on
<mathiaz> I guess that the final outcome of this discussion is that we won't create a separate -devel channel
<nijaba> yep
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] UDS topics
<MootBot> New Topic:  UDS topics
<kirkland> mathiaz: are you calling for topics?
<mathiaz> Altought we are *all* testing the intrepid isos, some of us may have ideas for the next release cycle
<mathiaz> If so, please add them to the IdeaPool from the server team wiki pages
<nealmcb> hmmm - irc client died right after my last comment....
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/IdeaPool
<mathiaz> That page will be used as input for the UDS topics
<mathiaz> dendrobates: will be watching this page closely.
<mathiaz> dendrobates: anything else to add wrt to UDS topics?
<dendrobates> mathiaz: not at this time.
<mathiaz> okidoki
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Open discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open discussion
<mathiaz> anything else to add?
<mathiaz> speak up now
<zul> blub blub
<mathiaz> zul: is that a program you want to package for jaunty?
<sommer> heh
<zul> mathiaz: yes its a replacement for frozen bubble
<kirkland> it better be *damn* good, if it's to replace FB
<nijaba> zul: under the blub licence?  not sure it is GPL friendly
<mathiaz> zul: you mean - you plan to remove frozen bubble from the archive in jaunty?
 * kirkland draws his slingshot back........
<zul> what? I dont want to be public enemy number 1
<mathiaz> zul: that needs to be discussed at uds
<mathiaz> zul: at least one slot, if not a whole day
 * nijaba loading mentos
<zul> heh
<mathiaz> zul: you've opened a can of worms...
<zul> didnt mean to ;(
<mathiaz> all right - anything else to add?
<mathiaz> nope
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
<mathiaz> next week, same time, same place?
<nijaba> +1.02
<zul> same bat channel?
<sommer> o//
<nealmcb> nijaba: sorry - that is an overvote....
<ScottK> Is there going to be anything to meet about this time next week?
<mathiaz> ScottK: well - I don't know.
<nijaba> nealmcb: great, just testing your auditing algo
<nealmcb> :)
<mathiaz> ScottK: it may only a be a 5 minutes meeting.
<ScottK> mathiaz: If we're going anything except ISO testing next week, we're in bug trouble.
<sommer> there might be more jaunty ideas
<mathiaz> ScottK: let's hope not. We'll meet next week to find out ;)
<nijaba> dumrolls...
<nijaba> drumrolls too
<mathiaz> all right - so see you all next week, here, same time, same date.
<mathiaz> and happy iso testing!
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:07.
<sommer> thanks mathiaz, later on all
<nijaba> thanks mathiaz
<james_w> damn, too slow
<james_w> just wanted to point out bug 286643 in case you had missed it
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 286643 in bacula "bacula client configuration is broken out of the box" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/286643
<mathiaz> james_w: right - saw the bug
<mathiaz> james_w: I have to investigate this issue a little bit more
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Oct 17:00: Kernel Team | 22 Oct 17:00: QA Team | 22 Oct 22:00: Platform Team | 22 Oct 23:00: Forum Council | 23 Oct 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 23 Oct 13:00: Desktop Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kernel Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 22 Oct 17:00: QA Team | 22 Oct 22:00: Platform Team | 22 Oct 23:00: Forum Council | 23 Oct 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 23 Oct 13:00: Desktop Team
 * BenC is here
<pgraner> Roll Call...
<lieb> Yo
 * cking is here
<highvoltage> yay
<pgraner> smb won't be making it
 * ogasawara waves
<amitk> hi
<pgraner> ok looks like we are just missing rtg...
<pgraner> nope here he is
<pgraner> ok we can get moving
<pgraner> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:02. The chair is pgraner.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Intrepid Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  Intrepid Status
<pgraner> [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+source/linux/+bug/259157
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+source/linux/+bug/259157
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 259157 in network-manager "[MASTER 0.7 regression] atheros/madwifi and orinoco drivers not supported" [High,Triaged]
<pgraner> [MASTER 0.7 regression] atheros/madwifi and orinoco drivers not supported (rtg)
<pgraner> rtg: How do we sit with the one?
<rtg> pgraner: I've been ignoring it in favor of other problems.
<rtg> I think amitkhas run into it
<pgraner> rtg: whats it going to take to get it moving?
<rtg> clone me?
<rtg> I need time to look at this one, but I'm not sure its really a bug.
<BenC> is the bug in nm or in the kernel?
<amitk> rtg: this is a different bug AFAIK. the madwifi wpa module isn't in N-M anymore according to asac
<asac> amitk: just a slight correction: the madwifi module isnt available in wpasupplicant anymore
<rtg> amitk: how can it not be? we haven't changed madwifi, have we Be?
<amitk> aah..
<asac> (NM just explicitly used that instead of wext for ath_pci in the past)
<rtg> asac: ah
<BenC> So the bug is that NM doesn't have the right module for ath_pci anymore?
<asac> i think that was decided quite early during this cycle
<rtg> asac: thats a whole different issue. why was it removed?
<asac> BenC: wpasupplicant doesnt have the hacky-module anymore yes.
<amitk> asac: IOW, the bug is that ath5k doesn't work as well as it was supposed to at the beginning of intrepid?
<BenC> hacky module > no module?
<rtg> well, I don't think ath5k is ready for prime time in all cases.
<rtg> at least the hacky module worked.
<asac> rtg: because wpasupplicant upstream obsoleted it from what i know.
<BenC> any way to pull it back in?
<rtg> nice of them to do that before a suitable alternative was completed.
<ogra> rtg, the lbm ath5k module seems to work very good for the devices where it was broken for me
<asac> rtg: actually i think you signed that off in that thread (sorry if i am wrong)
<rtg> asac: I don't remember taht, but its possible.
<asac> BenC: for intrepid? even if we could add that back we wouldnt have enough time to add hacks for that in nm
<rtg> asac: is it sufficient for folks to go the LBM route?
<BenC> so what's the solution?
<asac> i cannot say what the solution is. maybe ath_pci has a improved in regards to wext and just blacklisting the right ids for ath5k would be enough to get back basic networking for them
<rtg> seems like madwifi is a no-show for anything other then open APs
<ogra> works here with WPA
<pgraner> asac: do we know what the "right ids" are?
<asac> at least i saw some comments that suggested that blacklisting ath5k was enough.
<ogra> err
<ogra> WEP
<rtg> pgraner: thas a real problem.
<NCommander> ogra, when I used madwifi on my old laptop, WPA worked fine, I can test it with whatever the current WPA solution is
<asac> pgraner: no... i think rtg asked on that bug but i dont think we have enough info on that
<amitk> pgraner: we don't. I have a pci id that works with madwifi for eee pc and ath5k for samsung q1.
<rtg> the PCI ID refers to the AR5007, but not the RF part on the back-end.
<ogra> pgraner, it also seems to depend on the HW combo ... while the same PCI id seems to work on an eeepc it doesnt on a samsung Q1
<asac> what we really would need would be a bunch of different ath5k cards and test ;)
 * pgraner mutters what a frickin' mess
<ogra> ++
<rtg> indeed
<BenC> Sounds like there's no way to get it right at this point
<pgraner> Ok, lets table this one and take it to kernel-list and see if we can get some consensus there
<NCommander> asac, I think I have a ath5k card that is supported
<asac> BenC: we can continue to gather information and consider a SRU to update the blacklist ... to at least fix this later
<amitk> rtg: what if madwifi was blacklisted by default and lbm recommendation but in release notes?
 * ogra likes to note that the prob with eee vs Q1 seems solved with lbm
<NCommander> The problem is madwifi is still needed for a lot of macbook pros and apple hardware
<NCommander> I don't think ath5k covers those cards
<asac> and of course try to get as much info as possible before (if there is still an upload happening)
<pgraner> rtg: can you write up a summary and send to the list to get the discussion going?
<amitk> NCommander: newer ath5k?
<rtg> without WPA, madwifi is largely useless
<rtg> pgraner: sure
<asac> rtg: well. but maybe wext support in ath_pci has improved and works for more
<NCommander> amitk, ath5k only supports a subset of the madwifi cards (the newer ones) my first gen MacBook Pro wasn't supported last I checked.
<asac> NCommander: so does blacklisting ath5k help for you?
<pgraner> [ACTION] rtg to send email summary to kernel-team to continue discussion LP#246269
<MootBot> ACTION received:  rtg to send email summary to kernel-team to continue discussion LP#246269
<amitk> time to talk to luis
<rtg> amitk: I've chatted with him 4 times in 5 days. its still a mess.
<NCommander> asac, I haven't had to blacklist anything, but this machine isn't running intrepid, so its not a recent kernel
<pgraner> Ok... lets move on...
<pgraner> [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+source/linux/+bug/246269
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+source/linux/+bug/246269
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 246269 in linux "Switched from vesafb to uvesafb, but uvesafb can't work without v86d" [High,Fix released]
<pgraner> Switched from vesafb to uvesafb, but uvesafb can't work without v86d (BenC)
<pgraner> This should have been fixed by reverting to vesafb, but needs to be thoroughly tested and closely monitored for regressions. Ben: have you scanned for bug reports which might be related to this change?
<BenC> pgraner: I have, and haven't noticed anything
<pgraner> BenC: what about Dell's report of corruption on shutdown?
<pgraner> rtg: ^^^^^^^^^
<BenC> pgraner: I haven't heard anything back about that
<BenC> rtg: ?
<rtg> pgraner: I just received the laptop today. its installing as we chat
<pgraner> rtg: let BenC know if you find anything
<rtg> np
<pgraner> [ACTION] rtg to report to BenC on shutdown screen corruption
<MootBot> ACTION received:  rtg to report to BenC on shutdown screen corruption
<rtg> i gotta say, though, that problem is way down the list.
<pgraner> [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+source/linux/+bug/267295
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+source/linux/+bug/267295
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 267295 in linux "2.6.27-2.3 fails to boot on Compaq Presario S6010V: " [High,Triaged]
<pgraner> This has been confirmed to still fail with -7.10, though the bug is generally in pretty bad shape. There are no details about the hardware involved. (BenC)
<heno> I've tested the vesa change here and ara is doing more testing in Montreal
<BenC> pgraner: as far as I know the situation where usplash was working on boot, and had graphical entities on shutdown is not a bug in the kernel...it's like usplash, or a bad interaction with xorg
<pgraner> heno: great
<pgraner> BenC: Can you look into this one today and see if its valid and update the bug or close if it fits?
<heno> is booting with vga=792 testcase enough?
<BenC> pgraner: will do
<pgraner> [ACTION] BenC to look into LP #267295
<MootBot> ACTION received:  BenC to look into LP #267295
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 267295 in linux "2.6.27-2.3 fails to boot on Compaq Presario S6010V: " [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/267295
<pgraner> [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+source/linux/+bug/284354
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+source/linux/+bug/284354
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 284354 in linux-lpia "AR2424 on Samsung Q1 loads both ath_pci and ath5k modules" [High,Triaged]
<BenC> heno: yes
<heno> thanks
<pgraner> amitk: is this in the same boat as the other ath5k?
<rtg> amitk: and why does it load both?
<rtg> ath_pci should be preferred since its in LRM and not blacklisted.
<amitk> pgraner: yes. Loading the ath5k from lbm fixes the problem
<pgraner> amitk: Its looking like we will have to do one more upload, will this one be ready if we do?
<amitk> rtg: I am investigating why both modules are loaded as we speak
<rtg> pgraner: its in LBM, so its already uploaded.
<pgraner> rtg: great
<amitk> pgraner: lbm fixes it. so not much we can do
<amitk> much else we can do
<pgraner> amitk: ok, can we get the bug to reflect that along with updated state?
<amitk> pgraner: on it
<pgraner> [ACTION] amitk to update LP#284354
<MootBot> ACTION received:  amitk to update LP#284354
<pgraner> [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+source/linux/+bug/249448
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+source/linux/+bug/249448
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 249448 in linux "Bluetooth mouse does not re-establish connection after reboot" [Medium,Confirmed]
<pgraner> rtg: this one is for you :-)
<pgraner> This was fixed by Tim for Hardy, and the patch was carried forward (presumably to Intrepid?), but it's being reported in Intrepid now. Is this OBE due to the newer bluetooth stack? (rtg)
<rtg> pgraner: I did check on this. the patch is still in Intrepid.
<pgraner> ogasawara: can you ask for additional testing and see if we can close this one?
<ogasawara> pgraner: sure
<rtg> I'm assigned to it. I'll get to if I can.
<pgraner> [ACTION] ogasawara to ask for additional testing on LP #249448
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ogasawara to ask for additional testing on LP #249448
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 249448 in linux "Bluetooth mouse does not re-establish connection after reboot" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/249448
<pgraner> [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+source/linux/+bug/193970
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+source/linux/+bug/193970
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 193970 in linux-ubuntu-modules-2.6.24 "iwl3945 | iwl4965: Wireless can't be activated after disabling kill switch" [Undecided,New]
<pgraner> It appears that this has to do with the position of the switch when the module is loaded. Back to kernel? (rtg)
<rtg> pgraner: yep - LBM is the likely solution (again)
<pgraner> rtg: do you have a fix?
<rtg> no for the stock kernel. rf-kill was in a state of flux when Linus slammed the lid on it.
<rtg> like I said, LBM is the way to go for rf-kill support.
<ogasawara> there is a workaroud for that one by unloading/reloading the module if you happened to boot with the kill switch enabled
<NCommander> That bug is no longer true
<pgraner> NCommander: ???
<rtg> ogasawara: we could just stick it in pm-utils
<NCommander> It used to be, but on my machine, the kill switch has been working for about a month
<NCommander> I have an iwl4965 on this machine
<NCommander> kill switch works the way its susposed to
<rtg> its i3945 that is the issue
<NCommander> Oh, the bug should be retitled then ;-)
<pgraner> Ok, lbm for this one
<rtg> well, it was originally a Hardy problem
<pgraner> [TOPIC] QA Bugs
<pgraner> [LINK] http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogasawara/intrepid-buglist.html
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA Bugs
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogasawara/intrepid-buglist.html
<pgraner> ogasawara: any new show stoppers?
<ogasawara> pgraner: the only one was 263059 which has been resolved by disabling CONFIG_DYNAMIC_FTRACE
<ogasawara> pgraner: there is also bug 276990 but I suspect it should be resolved with lbm
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 276990 in linux-meta "iwlagn causes kernel panic on 802.11n wifi" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/276990
<ogasawara> other than that I haven't seen any major showstoppers
<NCommander> ogasawara, I can test that
<rtg> ogasawara: yep, and I have a shiny new 802.11n AP which I'm about to turn on.
<ogasawara> NCommander: that'd be great, thanks
<NCommander> ogasawara, I'm still a little foggy w.r.t to lbm, so if you can explain it better after the meeting
<pgraner> [ACTION] NCommander to test LP #276990 and report back to the bug
<MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to test LP #276990 and report back to the bug
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 276990 in linux-meta "iwlagn causes kernel panic on 802.11n wifi" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/276990
<ogasawara> NCommander: sure
 * NCommander assigns himself to the bug
<pgraner> Anyone else have any other kernel bugs to raise for Intrepid?
<NCommander> There are no unqiue show stoppers that I am aware of in ports
<rtg> NCommander: sudo apt-get install linux-backports-modules-intrepid
 * NCommander determines if he needs an n router to test
<pgraner> Ok... I guess we can move on then...
<pgraner> [TOPIC] UDS Status & Prep
<MootBot> New Topic:  UDS Status & Prep
<pgraner> I am starting to get tracks together for UDS and would like input from folks on what they would like to see.
<pgraner> Current topics are: Fastboot, tree mgt and process, dropping the lpia arch and a few others that have escaped my recall right now
<NCommander> I think we also have the topic of merging some of the port architectures to the main kernel if I followed a few other people correctly
<rydberg> Fastboot is a great thing - forces some cleanup onto the whole system, too
<pgraner> Email is the best submission method and I'll work them into the tracks. Make sure to give me a small bit of background and I'll follow up with everyone
<rtg> NCommander: I'm not sure where you've come up with that idea. I'm not aware of any plans beyond ARM.
<pgraner> rydberg: ack on that
<rtg> pgraner: get amitk to talk about the ARM port.
<pgraner> rtg: ack, thats there via davidm's tracks
 * NCommander has ARM hardware, and doesn't mind doing the inital work to get the ARM kernel buildable/runnable
<pgraner> rtg: we have lots of coordination to do with others, fastboot is one, its not only kernel
<amitk> NCommander: I wouldn't mind help testing and taking care of flavours for which I don't have hardware. Lets take it up offline
<pgraner> Anything else on UDS?
<pgraner> I'll take silence as approval :-)
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<pgraner> Anyone have anything?
<NCommander> amitk, shoot
<NCommander> Yeah
<NCommander> I've been doing work on blowing the dust off -ports
<NCommander> I have a working 2.6.27.2 based ports tree with the i386 and powerpc architectures tested
<amitk> ia64 and sparc build?
<NCommander> I'll be testing sparc
<NCommander> ia64 might be tricky to test
<NCommander> I have access to a VERY loaded down ia64 box from HP
<BenC> I have ia64 and hppa
<NCommander> Ok, following on that
<BenC> local, so easy to test on
<NCommander> There will be a new powerpc varient, powerpc-rt and powerpc-smp-rt
<NCommander> er
<NCommander> powerpc64-rt
 * NCommander typoed
<NCommander> I'll be working with the linux-rt maintainer to get that changeset landed in ports git tree
<amitk> pgraner: topic for UDS: What arches and flavours to support inside canonical?
<ogra> BenC, how are you able to test anything on hppa ? nothing has built there for weeks :)
<pgraner> amitk: got it
<BenC> ogra: magical pixie dust :)
<NCommander> There is also the possibility that we could merge the linux-rt package into linux-ports. Formally ports also include community-supported build variants (just i386-386 ATM), but it might make sense to have rt there, and have i386-rt and amd64-rt build out of the ports tree instead
<BenC> NCommander: we can't integrate the patches as a whole
<NCommander> BenC, ?
<BenC> NCommander: causes build failures and merge failures with other architectures
<NCommander> BenC, we can add a patch system to add that patch dymanically
<NCommander> Which is what linux-rt currently does AFAIK
 * NCommander hates the idea of making the build system even more complex but this might be an unavoidable evil for powerpc-rt
<BenC> NCommander: We have that...custom flavours...just letting you know it isn't a matter of just applying the patches without care :)
<NCommander> BenC, of course not. Every patch has the tendency to break everything expect you ;-)
 * NCommander has worked on gnumach before and learned that lesson the hard way
<BenC> NCommander: but I also disagree with doing that because things like that tend to become blockers when they break
<BenC> NCommander: and then we open the door for xen, openvz, patch-set-of-the-week
<BenC> NCommander: and any one can block the whole package
<NCommander> Hrm
<rtg> oh no, don't go there. that was a nightmare.
<zul> yes xen is evil
<NCommander> I thought xen finally landed in 2.6.27
<BenC> xen guest, but not host
<NCommander> ouch
<NCommander> Ok, so maybe having linux-rt merged into ports isn't the best idea ever ;-)
<NCommander> however, I am working to make sure that at least the ports kernel is not three revisions old for the next time around
<BenC> we've been down that road before...it's paved with evil things
<pgraner> OK NCommander you can take this up on #u*-kernel with BenC and others
<pgraner> we have 10min and need to watch time
 * NCommander nods
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Round Table
<MootBot> New Topic:  Round Table
<pgraner> pgraner -
<rtg> seems like that was the round table.
<pgraner> Reminder I'll be in London for release week with most of the other disto team mgt.
<pgraner> rtg: whats going on for the remainder of this week for you?
<BenC> pgraner: at least you get to be at the party
<rtg> A key repeat bug is annoying my Dell friends.
 * pgraner goes "yea!"
<rtg> probably some more wireless issues.
<pgraner> rtg: I've seen others mostly about the brightness keys
<rtg> pgraner: I think they are releated.
<rtg> related, even
<pgraner> ogasawara: can you round all those up and see if we can mark as dupes?
<ogasawara> pgraner: yup, I'll take a look
<pgraner> [ACTION] ogasawara to round up all the repeat keypress bugs and look for dupes etc....
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ogasawara to round up all the repeat keypress bugs and look for dupes etc....
<pgraner> BenC: you're on... whats on your plate?
<rtg> I can't see beyond that.
<BenC> pgraner: toshiba-acpi cleanup and eventual testing, linux-firmware copyright/license (much harder than it appears tracking down history)...
<pgraner> BenC: ACK.... Can you help rtg out and take a few things off his plate? i.e. key repeat
<BenC> pgraner: Sure can
<BenC> rtg: just spot me some bug numbers
<rtg> like I know what they are.
<pgraner> [ACTION] BenC to get with rtg on off loading some bugs
<MootBot> ACTION received:  BenC to get with rtg on off loading some bugs
<pgraner> amitk: what say you ?
<amitk> I'm rebasing the lpia tree on top of 2.6.27.2 and working to solve ath5k/madwifi issue for mobile folks.
<pgraner> amitk: cool
<amitk> and then i'll work on bugs
<rtg> pgraner: off topic - we should roll a kernel today. I've cherry-picked the 2.6.27.2 patches which has a couple of important fixes. xfs barrier, and scheduler reset.
<BenC> Quick question: Anyone working on rebasing for jaunty yet?
<pgraner> amitk: might want to work down ogasawara bug list top to bottom and see if there is any low hanging stuff you can knock out
<BenC> If not, I'll add that to the back of my queue
<amitk> pgraner: ack
<pgraner> cking: sup with you?
<NCommander> BenC, I'll help with that if you want.
<cking> My pipeline is full with OEM issues to resolve
<pgraner> cking: happy happy joy joy
<BenC> cking: Good catch on some of those issues btw
<cking> ..its getting less tedious now
 * pgraner was being polite thought i'd give you the chance to bitch :-)
<cking> BenC: thanks. it's been an education
<pgraner> cking: is now the resident dsdt & BIOS guru
<cking> pgraner: maybe :)
<pgraner> lieb: how goes it your first week?
<BenC> What a horrible thing to say
 * pgraner says it with much love
<lieb> thanks to benc I'm working on oem stuff.  got 8.10 beta running dual screen
<lieb> is there a way to get adept to sort packages other than hash key?
<pgraner> lieb: VT races are just plain good fun no?
<lieb> almost as much fun as groking acronyms.  lbm??? lrm???
<rtg> little-big-man
<BenC> linux-backports-modules and linux-restricted-modules
<pgraner> lieb: its gets easier ... really!
<lieb> yea, eventually
<pgraner> Ok... guys we are over so we'll call it end of meeting...
<pgraner> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:02.
<amitk> thanks all...
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 22 Oct 17:00: QA Team | 22 Oct 22:00: Platform Team | 22 Oct 23:00: Forum Council | 23 Oct 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 23 Oct 13:00: Desktop Team | 23 Oct 14:00: Ubuntu Java
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-10-22
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: QA Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 22 Oct 22:00: Platform Team | 22 Oct 23:00: Forum Council | 23 Oct 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 23 Oct 13:00: Desktop Team | 23 Oct 14:00: Ubuntu Java
<davmor2> hello
 * ogasawara waves
<heno> hello!
<bdmurray> hi
<heno> sbeattie: meeting
<heno> ara and pedro are travelling
<schwuk> Hi
<heno> let's start and keep it short as there is a release going on ...
<heno> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:02. The chair is heno.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<heno> agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
<heno> jcastro: openweek pitch?
<jcastro> yes!
<heno> we've had a range of good QA sessions lately
<jcastro> still looking for sessions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<heno> So more would be welcome, I'm sure
<jcastro> holler at me on irc or via jorge@ubuntu.com and we'll get you scheduled
<jcastro> oh yes, plenty of space left
<jcastro> I've already started chasing down individuals but more volunteers would certainly be welcome
<heno> sbeattie: an SRU verification session perhaps?
<sbeattie> heno: yeah, possibly
<heno> schwuk: a how-to-extend-checkbox-with-test-scripts session?
<jcastro> note that openweek is /after/ release
<heno> indeed - 'how to file better bugs' is always good as well then
<heno> ok, thanks jcastro
<heno> [TOPIC] RC release status
<MootBot> New Topic:  RC release status
<schwuk> heno: we could do that - we have the session logs from cr3's recent -classroom session
<heno> we've respun images a few times already and may need a kubuntu respin again to fix OEM
<davmor2> bar humbug I think ubuntu dvd might of borked
<heno> it is looking to be a long evening indeed
<heno> testing help from folks in late timezones would be much appreciated
<heno> davmor2: broken how?
<davmor2> stuck at 5% creating ext3 file system for / in partition #1 of scsi3
<davmor2> but neither hd light nor dvd light are flickering
<heno> davmor2: ok, I'll try it too after this
<heno> did you try disk check?
<davmor2> trying it now
<heno> does anyone else hear any alarm bells regarding RC?
<heno> bdmurray, ogasawara ^ ?
<davmor2> studio is the only other issue
<persia> I'm digging into studio now.  I'm fairly sure the wallpaper issue can be fixed post-RC.
<ogasawara> there's bug 272896 that just got resolved upstream, but will likely need to wait for an Intrepid SRU
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 272896 in linux "intrepid - after upgrade to kernel 2.6.27 i cannot upgrade nor i can navigate internet" [Unknown,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/272896
<heno> davmor2: we've reduced it to the wallpaper and screensaver menu entry right?
<davmor2> pretty much yes everything else seems to be fine
<heno> ogasawara: ok, it should get a release-notes task too
<davmor2> all the apps work as expected
<ogasawara> heno: ok I'll add it.  I mentioned to cjwatson I write something up.
<heno> ogasawara: thanks
<heno> I see 4 images have completed automated testing with today's images
<heno> we need a full run after RC is out
<heno> ok, any other business?
<heno> thanks everyone! record short meeting
<heno> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:19.
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 22 Oct 22:00: Platform Team | 22 Oct 23:00: Forum Council | 23 Oct 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 23 Oct 13:00: Desktop Team | 23 Oct 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 28 Oct 11:00: Asia Oceania Membership Board
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Platform Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 22 Oct 23:00: Forum Council | 23 Oct 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 23 Oct 13:00: Desktop Team | 23 Oct 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 28 Oct 11:00: Asia Oceania Membership Board
<LaRoza> This is some meeting...
<LaRoza> (9 minutes...)
<perlluver> lol LaRoza
<LaRoza> I posted to get the time :-)
<LaRoza> (Too lazy to check otherwise)
<perlluver> heh
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-10-23
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Forum Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Oct 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 23 Oct 13:00: Desktop Team | 23 Oct 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 28 Oct 11:00: Asia Oceania Membership Board
<LaRoza> Is this the meeting?
<jdong> yes
<persia> This is the Forum Council meeting.
<jdong> waiting for people to show up
<LaRoza> Good, my time conversions are shaky
<jdong> I don't think it's very fun for me to blabber by myself
<LaRoza> Well, we can blabber together
<jdong> as much as I'd like to talk about a linear time way of finding the n largest elements of an array.
<persia> LaRoza, `date -u` might help.
<LaRoza> Thank you :-)
<LaRoza> jdong: How were the tests?
<jdong> LaRoza: not too horrible, got a 96 (avg 90), 91 (avg 69), and 69 (avg 73)
<LaRoza> Pretty good.
<jdong> I think I'll settle and call that okay considering I had three tests in 24 hours
<LaRoza> You should spread them out
<jdong> ok, I just got word from ubuntu-geek that he will be unable to attend
<jdong> LaRoza: haha not my choice :)
<LaRoza> jdong: I know, I am just being logical, yet useless
<LaRoza> So what do we do? Carry on without him?
<jdong> well yeah
<LaRoza> liar...
<jdong> oh speak of the devil.
<ubuntugeek> hi
<LaRoza> Hello
<jdong> hi mr. i-wont-be-here :)
<ubuntugeek> I need to step away a second
<ubuntugeek> ok
<ubuntugeek> :)
<ubuntugeek> Who else is here?
<LaRoza> Besides me and jdong?
<ubuntugeek> Shall we get started? I am thinking we'll discuss your item first laroza
 * jacob is here, amidst connection issues. :P
<LaRoza> Ok
<LaRoza> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=950962
<LaRoza> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=954138
<LaRoza> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=4861572
<LaRoza> (For reference)
<LaRoza> My initial proposal was the to rename the Sun Sparc forum to "Alterntive Platforms"
<LaRoza> And have prefixes for the various platforms
<LaRoza> The PPC and netbook label are possible points of issue
<jdong> I like the idea, but I think the name "Architecture-specific discussions" would be more appropriate
<persia> So one for LPIA, one for HPPA, one for IA64, one for SPARC, etc.?
<LaRoza> jdong: Name isn't the issue, so that is ok
<LaRoza> Yes
<LaRoza> The list
<LaRoza> (Hold on)
<LaRoza> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=861559
<LaRoza> alpha
<LaRoza> arm
<LaRoza> hppa
<LaRoza> ia64
<LaRoza> mips
<ubuntugeek> 	â¢	alpha
<ubuntugeek> 	â¢	arm
<ubuntugeek> 	â¢	hppa
<ubuntugeek> 	â¢	ia64
<ubuntugeek> 	â¢	mips
<ubuntugeek> 	â¢	mipsel
<LaRoza> mipsel
<ubuntugeek> 	â¢	powerpc
<LaRoza> powerpc
<ubuntugeek> 	â¢	PS3
<ubuntugeek> 	â¢	sparc
<LaRoza> PS3
<LaRoza> sparc
<jdong> mergesort!
<ubuntugeek> 	â¢	Netbooks
<LaRoza> Netbooks
<ubuntugeek> 	â¢	Other
<LaRoza> Other
<LaRoza> The PPC could be for Apple PPC only
<ubuntugeek> Yeah we would leave the apple forum alone in its own entity
<LaRoza> And the netbooks could be cut out, as they are getting very popular (and would deserve their own forum)
<jdong> well... haven't we agreed based on past experiences to reduce the number of forums in favor of the use of tags?
<LaRoza> (But the netbook issue isn't the point here, so we'll gloss over that)
<persia> Erm.  Ubuntu doesn't do alpha, mips, mipsel, and the ARM port is rather unofficial.
<jdong> personally I'd rather expand the AMD64 section into a "Platform Specific Discussion" umbrella
<persia> Also, wouldn't Netbooks be part of the Laptops section?
<LaRoza> persia: It is meant to be a forum for hardware that would require special attention
<LaRoza> But would have few users
<ubuntugeek> We need to stick to platforms that ubuntu supports officially. Anything else can go in a 3rd party category
<cjwatson> (and the arm port will be armel anyway)
<LaRoza> ubuntugeek: Ok, then that would reduce the tags
<cjwatson> LaRoza: no users, since Ubuntu doesn't build packages for those architectures
<persia> cjwatson, Is there any official confirmation that LP will have ARM?
<LaRoza> Those were just pulled from what Linux supports
<cjwatson> persia: I don't know of any blockers
<ubuntugeek> laroza: do you have a list of the *official* ubuntu platforms handy?
<LaRoza> The prefixes themselves could be left to another discussion, those were just possibles
<LaRoza> ubuntugeek: In a second
<ubuntugeek> Ok
<LaRoza> Oh, Sparc isn't currently supported and PPC isn't either
<LaRoza> So perhaps this forum would be for any platform that Ubuntu can run on, with a note it may not be officially supported or may be for older versions
<jacob> i386, amd64, and lpia are the only ones supported off the top of my head
<LaRoza> jacob: Yes, I am getting that too
<cjwatson> current officially supported architectures are i386 and amd64.
<cjwatson> </authoritative statement>
<persia> lpia is the same as sparc, ppc, ia64, hppa
<jacob> ah ok.
<LaRoza> But people will be using Ubuntu on their PS3 etc...
<cjwatson> yes, those are community-maintained ports
<ubuntugeek> Agreed
<LaRoza> Perhaps the Sparc forum could be moved out entirely (as it isn't current) and it could be a Forum Community Discussions
<cjwatson> I don't see anything wrong with having a sparc forum - we still build packages for it and such
<persia> I like the suggestion of "Platform Specific Discussion" which is inclusive of all the ports, whether official or not.
<cjwatson> unofficial doesn't mean nonexistent
<LaRoza> cjwatson: Same argument applies to the other platforms
<cjwatson> LaRoza: sure
<LaRoza> That is my point, these platforms deserve forum attention.
<ubuntugeek> I'd suggest this, since ubuntu 6.06 still supports sparc we leave that forum.
<cjwatson> LaRoza: but not to alpha, mips, etc. - those are nonexistent
<cjwatson> that's the distinction I'm drawing
<LaRoza> cjwatson: I see
<persia> LaRoza, The difference is mostly that nobody has ever reported a clean port to alpha, mips, mipsel, s/390, and I think the m68k port is still bootstrapping.
<cjwatson> the architectures that actually exist in Ubuntu are: amd64 hppa i386 ia64 lpia powerpc sparc (PS3 is a subarchitecture of powerpc)
<LaRoza> persia: ok. Debian runs on them actually
<ubuntugeek> We can create another forum called "Architecture-specific" or something similar and pool in user driven architectures. This would go in the "other community discussions" section of the forums
<persia> LaRoza, I know.
<LaRoza> ubuntugeek: +1
<LaRoza> persia: My list wasn't well researched and was a list of possible platforms
<LaRoza> I think the list it self is best served by getting community input
<cjwatson> LaRoza: my list is well researched and authoritative. :-)
<persia> LaRoza, Fair :)  Odd architectures are one of the things I watch .
<LaRoza> Like there is a big interest in PS3
<ubuntugeek> Our goal with the "Main Support Categories" of the forums are to facilitate supported platforms current and past by Ubuntu.
<LaRoza> ubuntugeek: I understand. Currently, such discussions are directed to the Caf
<LaRoza> e
<ubuntugeek> Jdong: thoughts?
<jdong> the difference between PS3 and powerpc is less one of architecture than one of "platform" if that's the appropriate term...
<jdong> ubuntugeek: I'm still thinking it over
<cjwatson> jdong: subarchitecture, platform, that sort of thing
<ubuntugeek> I do have to question whether or not the
<LaRoza> jdong: And the actual prefixes would be determined by the demand
<ubuntugeek> category would get enough traffic
<LaRoza> ubuntugeek: More than the Sparc forum gets now...
<LaRoza> I bet
<jdong> I also wonder if Netbook is really appropriate to group in there
<LaRoza> jdong: Yes, it isn't
<cjwatson> psubuntu.com was pretty popular last I checked but it's been a while
<LaRoza> That was originally on the list because the EeePC was new and alone
<LaRoza> It should be booted off
<ubuntugeek> Laroza: Understood, but the sparc category was requested by canonical because it is/was an officially supported platform.
<jdong> ok well I'm okay for a "Other architectures" type forum in place of Sparc now that Sparc apparently isn't official
<LaRoza> Currently, people discussion putting Linux XBox's, PS3's, various devices is done in the Cafe
<LaRoza> I predict such a forum would have traffic to justify its existance
<ubuntugeek> cjwatson: correct me if i am wrong but sparc is still supported on 6.06?
<LaRoza> It wouldn't be ABT traffic, but traffic none the less
<cjwatson> ubuntugeek: that's correct
<jdong> I think we should have "Other Architectures & Platforms" which includes SPARC, other supported CPU architectures, or esoteric devices
<jdong> supported i.e. there's a ports.ubuntu.com port
<LaRoza> jdong: Or all non official arches and platforms
<LaRoza> (Which would include post Dapper Sparc)
<jdong> do we at the forums need to treat Sparc differently though?
<LaRoza> This would require the current sparc forum stay intact for now
<ubuntugeek> I am fine with create a non official platform section in the "Other community Categories" section.
<jdong> has something substantially changed other than the support status?
<ubuntugeek> creating*
<LaRoza> jdong: Have any of us used sparc?
<cjwatson> ubuntugeek: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2008-March/000400.html
<LaRoza> ubuntugeek: That is good.
<cjwatson> i.e. supported up to 7.10
<persia> jdong, So ports not yet on ports.ubnutu.com stay in the Caf?
<ubuntugeek> cjwatson: thanks
<jdong> persia: hmm I see your point
<LaRoza> I think it should be a community discussion on any archs and platforms
<cjwatson> jdong: you and I are using the word "supported" differently
<LaRoza> As long as installing isn't illegal
<cjwatson> jdong: I think you're using it to mean "exists"
<jdong> cjwatson: right. I didn't mean it in the Canonical supports it way.
<LaRoza> jdong: Ah, you were confusing me
<LaRoza> Then I agree with jdong
<LaRoza> (Or, he was agreeing with me)
<jdong> cjwatson: I was using it to illustrate the difference between, say, Sparc and XBox
<persia> Hrm?  Isn't XBox just i386 or ppc, depending on the generation?
<LaRoza> This forum would attract a lot of Ubuntu questions, but would also be appropriate for any distro I think
<LaRoza> persia: Yes, but it isn't the same as a PC
<LaRoza> Or PPC PC
<jdong> persia: architecturally, yes
<jdong> persia: but it presents a different set of challenges / support questions in setting it up
<ubuntugeek> OK, this is the proposal. We are going to leave Sparc as it is. We will create another category called "Other Architectures & Platforms" and it will appear under the "Other community Categories" the prefixes will be determined.
<persia> LaRoza, Well, in that case, I have a parade of devices :)
<jdong> ubuntugeek: +1
<LaRoza> ubuntugeek: +1
<LaRoza> persia: More the merrier :-)
<persia> Well, +1 from me, but I didn't think I had a vote :)
 * jdong hands persia an honorary FC vote :)
<LaRoza> Well, I was agreeing with the amended proposal of mine
<ubuntugeek> +1
<LaRoza> So... now are we done?
<LaRoza> (with that issue)
<ubuntugeek> yes
<jdong> yeah
<ubuntugeek> I'd like to save the staff issue for when more FC members are here
<jdong> likewise; I don't think it's something direly urgent and needs more staff and FC participation
<ubuntugeek> Staff issue, IE formalizing a hiring process etc.
<ubuntugeek> Agreed Jdong
<persia> hiring?  I suspect "recruitment" is a less loaded word.
<ubuntugeek> Yes, sorry :)
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Forum Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Oct 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 23 Oct 13:00: Desktop Team | 23 Oct 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 28 Oct 11:00: Asia Oceania Membership Board | 28 Oct 16:00: Server Team
<LaRoza> I get paid
<ubuntugeek> With coffee beans ;)
<jdong> with regards to the 2nd subpoint in that, I'd like the staff to comment for us (or think about) how we feel like we're doing in terms of handling the moderation work
<jdong> persia: well recruitment sounds like that Marine Corps guy that keeps on calling me....
<LaRoza> I think things work fine, barring my dark period...
<persia> jdong, Hrm.  "soliciting active members"
<jdong> :)
<jacob> jdong: you mean in staff hiring/recruitment, or general moderation?
<jdong> jacob: in general moderation. More leaning towards the second part of my point on the agenda
<jdong> i.e. do we need "moderators" in addition to staff.
<LaRoza> In that case, I think A.I. has to use the decimator
<jdong> I'm guessing the answer will be no, but I'd like more input.
<ubuntugeek> Agreed, jdong perhaps this is something we can discuss on the forums and bring up in the next meeting
<LaRoza> jdong: I don't think having levels of staff is needed like that
<jdong> right. form your opinions in the meantime, be ready to discuss thoroughly at next meeting :)
<jdong> as far as the forum hosting point, I think we're making some headway on that.
<jacob> jdong: i would be in support of it, but it would need to be very clearly defined on who moderates what. it would be beneficial to post categorization mostly
<ubuntugeek> We can put a feeler out to the mod's and let them maul it over :)
<jdong> ubuntugeek: last I saw, we got a response back from James. Do we have any further development beyond that?
<jacob> â
<jdong> I am concerned we're in no better shape today than when I put the item up, in terms of preparedness for Intrepid.
<ubuntugeek> On the topic of forums hosting, we did receive a reply from James. I needed to further reply to him tonight and see what his plans are to provide us with a more stable server situation.
<LaRoza> The poor servers... when Intrepid is released, we are going to have a vacation
<jacob> out of curiosity, how are the forums currently hosted? single server behind a proxy?
<ubuntugeek> He mentioned something about a second web server to help handle the load but frankly we need more details.
<jdong> jacob: a web server, a database server, and a proxy
<jacob> ok
<jdong> ubuntugeek: I thought he said a second database server?
<ubuntugeek> correct, the proxy is only caching images I think right now. I'd have to confirm.
<ubuntugeek> I hope not because thats not the issue :) let me get the email
<jdong> ubuntugeek: I thought he said he planned that to be the way :)
<jacob> i think a second web server would make more sense, as a db server cluster would have to constantly sync to be accurate
<jdong> ubuntugeek: IIRC future tense was liberally used in that e-mail
<ubuntugeek> No he said web server
<ubuntugeek> In terms of scaling, I agree we've probably reached the limit of
<ubuntugeek> ohiggins, and I've started things moving on our side to look at
<ubuntugeek> upgrading a 2nd machine to a similar level as ohiggins so we can have
<ubuntugeek> 2 backends.
<ubuntugeek> The proxy is only caching images, css and javascript. PHP is excluded
<jdong> right
<ubuntugeek> Which is good because that was causing issues
<ubuntugeek> So, we need to gather more information on this situation.
<jacob> (insert plug about how the static files could be on a lighttpd instance to speed things up)
<jdong> "In terms of communications, beyond my failure at replying to emails in
<jdong> a timely fashion, part of the problem has been these outages occurring
<jdong> at weekends. "
<jdong> IMO the one-way communication was probably the biggest issue for us.
<jdong> do we have any indication this will be solved?
<ubuntugeek> Agreed, the line of communication is broke
<ubuntugeek> I don't think calling his cell phone is a good choice we need to be more proactive and stable in our infrastructure
<ubuntugeek> That's just my opinion
<jdong> ubuntugeek: I agree. I'd like a form of e-mail contact that we can depend on for reasonably timely updates
<jdong> ubuntugeek: am I correct in anticipating nothing in the server architecture can change in time for the intrepid update (feasibly)?
<jdong> s/update/release
<nathangrubb> Did anything interesting happen?
<LaRoza> nathangrubb: Ssh
<jdong> nathangrubb: yeah the entire forums are closed. we are all moving to NOMGPP.
<ubuntugeek> jdong: I would be surprised if something happened before then.
<nathangrubb> jdong: haha
<jdong> ubuntugeek: well sounds like there's some underway progress on this issue now, but we should revisit at next meeting
<jdong> i.e. to see if we make further progress or end up talking to a brick wall again.
<ubuntugeek> I'll email james tonight the FC is on the thread so we'll just take it one step at a time and hope for a more stable future.
<ubuntugeek> Lets keep it on the agenda for next month and if necessary a permanent item until its resolved.
<jdong> ubuntugeek: +1
<nathangrubb> where's the meeting's issue page?
<LaRoza> Since no one else can, I'll vote: +1
<jdong> well I think that's all I wanted to talk about today
<ubuntugeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda
<LaRoza> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda
<nathangrubb> thanks
<nathangrubb> shouldn't that be in the topic?
<jdong> anyone else have anything they'd like discussed?
<LaRoza> jdong: yes, a small issue
<jacob> nathangrubb: ubottu updates the topic automatically
<ubuntugeek> laroza: the floor is open..
<LaRoza> In the Cafe, there are some quasi political discussions
<ubuntugeek> OK, we can discuss that on the forums.
 * nathangrubb has noticed these also
<LaRoza> To what degree do we restrict? If it is friendly or minor, I feel it should be left alone
<LaRoza> It isn't a big deal, as it seems to just deal with current events
<perlluver> That is still political
<jdong> well officially, I am going to say that political or current events not pertaining to FOSS or Ubuntu/Linux is not to be discussed in the Community Cafe
<perlluver> +1 jdong
<jdong> posting such threads is at your own risk/discretion for thread closing, jailing, and possible infractions if it gets out of hand
<jdong> i.e. I really suggest not doing it unless you're SURE it's not a controversial topic :)
<LaRoza> jdong: I am not doing anything :-) I let others deal with it
<LaRoza> (Or post reminders occasionally)
<jdong> but at any rate, I think this is an issue the staff can take care of on a case-by-case discussion
<LaRoza> jdong: Yes, unless it gets out of hand
<LaRoza> Next up, banning OS X users
<jdong> right, in which case we'll all find ourselves back here.
<cyberdork33> hey now
<jdong> alright, I need to get back to doing homework. Any other topics?
<ubuntugeek> Ok, the meeting is now at a end.
<LaRoza> Should we give a warning or can we ban them at first sight?
<jdong> that works too :)
<LaRoza> Well, bye :-)
<jdong> thanks, everyone for attending.
<nathangrubb> LaRoza: you can't ban admins, n00b! /me is banned
<ubuntugeek> larzoa, made a post in the staff area about the 2 urls you sent me.
<jdong> ================ END =======================
<ubuntugeek> make*
<LaRoza> ubuntugeek: Ok
<ubuntugeek> Thanks all
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Oct 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 23 Oct 13:00: Desktop Team | 23 Oct 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 28 Oct 11:00: Asia Oceania Membership Board | 28 Oct 16:00: Server Team | 28 Oct 17:00: Kernel Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Mobile Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Oct 13:00: Desktop Team | 23 Oct 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 28 Oct 11:00: Asia Oceania Membership Board | 28 Oct 16:00: Server Team | 28 Oct 17:00: Kernel Team
<davidm> mobile meeting about to start
 * ogra waves
<davidm> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 07:00. The chair is davidm.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<ogra> no agenda
<persia> There is too an agenda
<davidm> Just status
<StevenK> Therefore no meeting?
<StevenK>  /part
<ogra> persia, no wikipage at least
<persia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2008/20081023 ?
<davidm> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2008/20081023
<davidm> it's there and I can reach it.
<ogra> oh, thats not where the announcement mail links to
<persia> Then the announcement mail is broken :)
<ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/20081023
<persia> Missing the year.
<ogra> might be, but thats exposed to users :)
<davidm> The announcment mail is broken, I goofed
<davidm> I'll have to resend
<persia> Anyway, getting on with the meeting already...
<davidm> Anyway
<davidm> I can see we are all here.
<ogra> yeah
<persia> lool will be late
<davidm> I know lool told me yesterday
<davidm> thanks
<davidm> BUt he sent me an email so that has priority
<davidm> we have a bug in the installer?  Bug # 287857
<davidm> MID images are not installing?
<persia> Yep.  I failed the MID image because of it.  RM asks if we want to release MID RC with that bug.
<persia> Well, they install, but they are prone to user error causing a failure to start X.
<davidm> explain please
<persia> This worked on Monday, I think it will work again on Monday.  I'm a little annoyed it doesn't work today.
<StevenK> They continue to ask the "Who are you?" question
<persia> It asks for the username.  It doesn't ask when in --debug mode, so I'm having a little trouble tracking down why.
<StevenK> Which means users can still change the username from 'ubuntu' to say, 'woei'
<davidm> Ah so we need an errata saying not to change the user then?
<persia> If we publish this as RC, we need that errata.
<davidm> Well is there any chance of fixing it before RC?
<persia> No.
<ogra> no
<ogra> RC is in some hours
<davidm> Then we need an errata I think
<persia> Essentially the choice is 1) don't publish RC for MID.  2) Publish with the bug and add errata.
<ogra> 2 !
<StevenK> I vote for 2, too
<ogra> but put the bug on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+bugs?field.milestone=1326
<persia> That's three votes for 2 then.  I'll add the task and draft the errata.
<StevenK> But this is a dictatorship, not democracy
<StevenK> :-P
<persia> No, it's much more complex than that.  Anyway, decision complete.
<ogra> right, but the bug needs to be on the release team radar
<persia> In other news, the Mobile image testing only uncovered one bug : installing in Japanese defaults the timezone to America/New_York.  Minor enough I don't see any reason to either block or issue errata.
<davidm> Yes, please an errata and milestone it.
 * persia will take an action on that
<davidm> for installer that is
<davidm> Sorry
 * ogra likes to note that ubuntu-8.10-rc-mobile-i386.img already sits in the official prerelease pool :)
<davidm> The mobile bug is not critical
<davidm> annoying however
<StevenK> persia: Installing in English also does that. I suspect the timezone doesn't change due to language
<davidm> Sounds likely
<persia> The image wasn't failed for the bug, so it meets with sufficient tester approval to proceed.  Another tester was unhappy about bug #284354, but I think that already has sufficient escalation.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 284354 in ubuntu-meta "AR2424 on Samsung Q1 loads both ath_pci and ath5k modules" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/284354
<persia> StevenK, It's supposed to change.
<ogra> 284354 still needs a howto which i will write up later today
<persia> (and, yes, English defaults to America/New_York)
<ogra> greman doesnt
<ogra> *german
<ogra> it properly sets to berlin
<persia> Right.  It's Japanese that apparently has the bug.
<ogra> at least it did in the 20081021 image
<persia> There's a user community here, but they are used to dealing with such issues.
<StevenK> Maybe it's a clue that a lot of Japanese people are in America.
<ogra> the 22, 22.1 and 22.2 images were only fresh rolls for adding the l-b-m package, there shouldnt have been additional changes
<persia> No.  It's a bug.  Many of the Japanese localisation bugs were fixed in intrepid, but I'm getting off topic.
<davidm> OK any further release critical bugs that I am unaware of?
<persia> Those are the big ones for MID and Mobile.  The rest are inherited from Desktop or Xubuntu.
<persia> (and others are chasing those)
<davidm> [action] persia to write an errata and milestone bug #287857
<MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to write an errata and milestone bug #287857
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 287857 in ubiquity "Prompting for step 4 in --automatic mode only when not in --debug mode" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/287857
 * ogra still recives .fdi files not sure i will manage to get them in in time but i think we cover a lot of HW already
 * persia will confirm with the installer team before milestoning
<ogra> worst case they can go into an SRU
<davidm> Sorry brain is running slow just 1/2 way through first cup coffee
<davidm> OK, then lets move over to status
<persia> Oh, and for the next set of image tests, it would be good to have more than one tester per test case :p
<davidm> I'll put a redirect page into the wiki for the agenda
<davidm> [action] davidm to add a redirect page in wiki so folks reading announcement email get agenda
<MootBot> ACTION received:  davidm to add a redirect page in wiki so folks reading announcement email get agenda
 * ogra will have better opportunities to test and write down stuff for final if he's not wrestling with the build and publishing tools and 
<ogra> -and
<davidm> [topic] status
<MootBot> New Topic:  status
<davidm> [topic] status StevenK
<MootBot> New Topic:  status StevenK
<davidm> StevenK, how goes it?
<StevenK> I've been upgrading my laptop to Intrepid, fighting my laptop, and fighting dates
<StevenK> The laptop is mostly beaten into submission
<ogra> dates ? with wimen ?
<ogra> you know you shouldnt fight there, right ? :)
<persia> Ummm.....
<StevenK> dates-hildon, a seeded package
<davidm> Anything else we should know about?
<StevenK> Due to bug 284365
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 284365 in dates "Missing icons" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/284365
<StevenK> I've been under the weather due to a splitting headache all day, does that count?
 * ian_brasil puts that in team report
 * StevenK hmph's at ian_brasil
<davidm> Worth knowing about, I have have someone in Sydney come hit you with a hammer on the foot, should make headache go away ;-D
<ogra> ian_brasil, that he had dates that resulted in headdaches ?
<ian_brasil> team reports needs some scandal
<ogra> hehe
<davidm> Ok then moving on
<davidm> [topic] persia status?
<MootBot> New Topic:  persia status?
<StevenK> Such as "ogra in Classmate / Q1U triangle!"
<ogra> haha
<persia> Testing.  Getting images tracked by the testing team.  Testing.  Coordinating process requirements with the release team.  Testing.
<davidm> ummm good
<persia> All the interesting fallout has already been discussed.
<davidm> Yep, thanks, please keep at it
<davidm> OK moving on again.
<davidm> [topic] status ogra
<MootBot> New Topic:  status ogra
<ogra> tired :)
<Hobbsee> he's got women and dates on the brain, clearly.
<ogra> i was working on getting the workaround for ath5k into the image, l-b-m now sits in the /debs dir on our images
<ogra> getting the official publisher to publish our images
<ogra> getting it on the official webpage as well
<davidm> I thought we were just going with an errata?
<ogra> testing ... digging into bugs etc
<ogra> davidm, it wont help to have errata if you have no network connection to get the package ... i.e. on devices with no wired NIC
<ogra> so its on the image but you need to install it manually in cae you find your wlan doesnt behave
<ogra> and afaik cjwatson takse over that model into the desktop CDs
<ogra> or at least he suggested to
<davidm> Ok
<ogra> se the bottom of bug 284354
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 284354 in ubuntu-meta "AR2424 on Samsung Q1 loads both ath_pci and ath5k modules" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/284354
<ogra> what we need is a howto with a step by step guide i will write late today
<ogra> *later
<ogra> lool tested a way to get it working in the live image already, while i focused on getting the package in for post install installation
<davidm> OK got it, thanks
<ogra> i think we're looking pretty well with that workaround and the desktop/alternate CDs likely following us gives my confidence it was the right choice of workaround
<ogra> *me
<davidm> I agree
<davidm> anything else?
<ogra> the official release pacge will link to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/HowTo/ImageWriting
<ogra> for usb images
<ogra> so our users should be well covered with help
<ogra> that it
<ogra> *thats
<davidm> great, thanks
<davidm> [topic] status davidm
<MootBot> New Topic:  status davidm
<davidm> Mostly working on internal stuff.  Paper work.  Some testing, I got my laptop back and it no longer hangs on booting Intrepid.  :-)
<davidm> not much to talk about working with team leads on bugs and getting proper approval for image releases
<davidm> As this is the first release that we are going out with rest of distro it's been a "learning" experience.
<davidm> that's it for me.
<StevenK> For all of us, too
<davidm> I'll be in London for release next week
<StevenK> How long is the flight?
<davidm> so I'll need to shift some calls with the team
<davidm> 8+ hours
<StevenK> Ew
<davidm> I leave on Saturday arrive Sunday
<davidm> [topic] opens, new business?
<MootBot> New Topic:  opens, new business?
<StevenK> I wanted to point people at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/HowTo/ImageCreation
<StevenK> Shows how to create images using livecd-rootfs + a construction script
<ogra> COOL !
<StevenK> It needs a bunch of proof-reading. *hint*
<davidm> I'll try to hit that, it needs an example section I think
<StevenK> If you have a spare 30 minutes, try it out
<davidm> I will
<StevenK> Although it seems I can do it in 20, and persia in 60
<davidm> If nothing else I'll load up my laptop before Saturday :-)
<davidm> Anything else?
 * ogra points at approx or apt-cacher ... you can do the second build in 5 ;)
<persia> Oh, I have something else.
<davidm> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/HowTo/ImageCreation
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/HowTo/ImageCreation
<StevenK> ogra: That 20 is with a local mirror
<ogra> ah
<StevenK> ogra: There is approximately 700 packages to unpack and install -- that is the bulk of the 20
<davidm> persia, ?
<ogra> yeah, i was boasting a bit :)
<persia> We need someone to put together a nice landing page for each flavour, including description, overview, hints on included stuff, and pointers to other guides.
<persia> Front page should advertise 8.10 new features, etc.
<ogra> where ? wiki ?
<persia> The release announcement could take a paragraph and a pointer to the landing page.
<ian_brasil> on this subject, we hacked the script persia mentioned on MIC to get a squashfs on devices with low disk space
<persia> ogra, Unless you have a better idea.  I don't have hosting, and am not sure I know how to arrange it in the next few days.
<persia> ian_brasil, You did?
 * persia suggests TOPIC ian_brasil status
<ian_brasil> it gives ubuntu-minimal with squashfs
<davidm> [topic]  ian_brasil status
<MootBot> New Topic:   ian_brasil status
<davidm> ian_brasil, that sounds interesting
<davidm> do you have a URL for the hacked script?
<ian_brasil> it uses two scripts
<ian_brasil> one called disk and the other modules
<ian_brasil> i will post the scripts on paste
<ian_brasil> it will be good if you can look them over
<davidm> Nice, thanks
<davidm> lool, you back yet?
<davidm> looks like the answer is no
<davidm> any other open business?
<persia> So, if we're done with status, I'd like someone to volunteer (or be volunteered) to put together landing pages.
<davidm> We seem to be done with status
 * ogra still has the lbm howto ahead ... and thinks landing pages have still time until final 
<StevenK> persia: "voluntold"
<ogra> we should have a skeleton asap though
<persia> StevenK, works.
<davidm> StevenK, can you get a skeleton together?
<persia> ogra, Be nice to have skeletons for the RC announcement in a few hours, but yeah, we have a few days.
<ogra> right
<davidm> I'm unclear where it needs to live, persia what is the correct place for this?
 * ogra wonders if lbm inclusion in desktop/alternate might delay RC
<StevenK> davidm: I can probably bash rocks together and ask persia for guidance
<persia> www.ubuntumobile.org and www.ubuntumid.org
<persia> Alternately, www.ubuntu.com/mobile
<persia> We're probably not going to organise that in time, so:
<persia> wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuMobile and wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuMID
<StevenK> That's harder, and requires Matthew
<ogra> right
<persia> Right.  We'll try to fix it for Jaunty.  PR isn't one of the things we focused on for Intrepid, and it shows.
<davidm> Very true
<StevenK> Busy playing catch up :-(
<davidm> OK then I'll leave that to StevenK I think we have to use wiki for now.
<ogra> jaunty will be so boring ...
<davidm> Anything else?
<ogra> all important stuff is done now and we can actually focus on images
<ian_brasil> i am up for helping with some stuff like PR if needed
<ogra> :)
<davidm> :) +1
<davidm> OK, then if there is nothing else endmeeting going oncee
<ian_brasil> paste.ubuntu.com:61509
<ian_brasil> oops
<persia> Let's move to -mobile for the review of the scripts.
<davidm> that works well
<ian_brasil> ok
<davidm> endmeeting going twice .................
<davidm> [endmeeting]
<davidm> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 07:53.
 * pitti waves
 * ArneGoetje waves back
<bryce> morning
<Keybuk> wow, those mobile guys finished early today ;)
 * pitti stops wrestling with the kernel
<Keybuk> asac, calc, Riddell, mpt: ping
 * asac waves
<Riddell> hi
<mpt> hello
 * mvo waves
<Keybuk> mvo: ;)
<Keybuk> missed us already?
<mvo> yeah!
<mvo> old habits :)
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Desktop Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Oct 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 28 Oct 11:00: Asia Oceania Membership Board | 28 Oct 16:00: Server Team | 28 Oct 17:00: Kernel Team
<seb128> mvo: !!!
<Keybuk> ok, let's get started
<kwwii> howdy
<Keybuk> I don't want to take up too much of anyone's time today - as it's Release Candidate day
<Keybuk> but there's a few team related bits to work out
<Keybuk> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2008-10-23
<Keybuk> oh
<Keybuk> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 08:01. The chair is Keybuk.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<pitti> \o I have an urgent topic, too
<Keybuk> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2008-10-23
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2008-10-23
<Keybuk> pitti: ok, can you /msg me the title
<Keybuk> [TOPIC] New team members
<MootBot> New Topic:  New team members
<Keybuk> Everybody please welcome asac, ArneGoetje, bryce and calc
 * pitti hugs our new team members, welcome!
<mpt> Velcome!
<ArneGoetje> thanks :)
<asac> thanks all!
<seb128> welcome on board!
<pitti> changed the decoration of your offices already?
 * kwwii hands out new name tags
<Keybuk> since we have new members, in new and exciting timezones, that brings us to the next topic
<asac> we need a team-flag ... kwwii anything?
<asac> ;)
<Keybuk> [TOPIC] Team meeting time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Team meeting time
<Keybuk> I spent literally minutes struggling with Moin syntax and put together a pretty chart of when I think most people are working, and when they're awake
<seb128> those are utc?
<Keybuk> they are UTC, with daylight savings off
<ArneGoetje> looks nice :)
<mpt> A top spinning on a desk
<Keybuk> ArneGoetje: did I get your working hours right?
<kwwii> Keybuk: careful about making things too pretty, they'll want you to do artwork soon
<seb128> Keybuk: well, utc doesn't change on dst does it?
<Keybuk> seb128: but people's working ours would :p
<seb128> right ;-)
<seb128> that's a good point
<ArneGoetje> Keybuk: I guess so. The important part for the meeting is 1300~1500 UTC anyways... I can extend that up to 1700 UTC maybe...
<Keybuk> ArneGoetje: the current Foundations team meeting is 1500-1600 UTC ?
<pitti> so 1500 or 1600 UTC seem like the least conflicting times?
<Keybuk> indeed
<ArneGoetje> Keybuk: yes
<Keybuk> at 1500 UTC, bryce would have to get up at 7am his time - bryce?
<pitti> ArneGoetje, bryce: now fight!
<asac> sounds reasonable
<kwwii> waht a nice way to start your day
<Keybuk> or at 1600 UTC, ArneGoetje would have to go to bed at midnight his time - ArneGoetje?
<bryce> Keybuk: still early, but I can do it
<ArneGoetje> Keybuk: I'm usually not in bed before 1 am anyways...
<Keybuk> if I suggest 1600 UTC?  would that be bad?
<calc> sorry was in another window
<asac> so 1600 UTC? i can certainly push that schedule back one hour
<asac> so would work
<asac> oh i even wouldnt ;)
<ArneGoetje> Keybuk: sould work
<Keybuk> ArneGoetje: ok, if it doesn't work out, shout! and we'll see what we can tweak down the line
<cjwatson> 1500 UTC is 8am bryce's time, not 7am
<Keybuk> I'm always vaguely in favour of geeks staying up an extra hour than getting up an hour early :p
<ArneGoetje> Keybuk: no problem
<cjwatson> well, at the moment :)
<Keybuk> cjwatson: the next meeting takes place after the DST shift for everyone
<bryce> :-)
<cjwatson> ah, sorry, you were doing that without DST - I'll shut up
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> since it's going to be that time, that clashes with the manager's meeting
<Keybuk> so I'd suggest a day change
<pitti> eww
<Keybuk> any particular feelings for a different day from anyone
<calc> isn't the foundations meeting on wed?
<Keybuk> Friday?  Wednesday?
<pitti> Friday -> release team meeting
<Keybuk> pitti: not after the release it won't be?
<ArneGoetje> any day is fine for me
<bryce> me too
 * pitti isn't available Mon and Wed evenings
<bryce> on a friday we might miss people more due to holidays
<asac> friday would be quite bad. i agree
<pitti> if it's 1600 UTC, that would WFM in winter, though
<Keybuk> how about Tuesday?
<seb128> pitti: 16utc is 17h local time
<asac> i am frequently traveling fri evening
<pitti> seb128: right, in winter that works fine
<asac> tuesday is fine
<seb128> I don't like friday evening, people sometime stop working on decent hours on friday after a busy week
<kwwii> asac: the bar cannot be that far away
<Keybuk> agree
<Keybuk> I tend to prefer not Wednesday, since that would prevent people attending both Desktop and Foundations
<asac> kwwii: ;)
<Keybuk> Tuesday on #ubuntu-desktop (since meeting is busy with the server team)
<Keybuk> any objections? concerns?
<seb128> works for me
<asac> works
<pitti> Tuesday 1600 UTC? WFM
<calc> wfm
<ArneGoetje> wfm
<Riddell> good here
<mpt> ok
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> done
<seb128> \o/
<seb128> that was easier that I would have expected ;-)
<asac> that was easier than expected
 * asac hugs seb128 
 * seb128 hugs asac
<Keybuk> ok, I'll try and figure out how to effect that change in Google Calendar ;)
<Keybuk> we won't have a meeting next week due to the release
<Keybuk> so the first meeting on the new schedule will be Tuesday November 4th at 16:00 UTC
<bryce> election day!
<pitti> oh, is it? whoo
<calc> Keybuk: btw i will be in beijing that day :)
<kwwii> bryce: your are assuming america won't go belly up by then
<Keybuk> calc: indeed
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> [TOPIC] hardy langpack update
<MootBot> New Topic:  hardy langpack update
<Keybuk> pitti:
<mpt> I may not be here that day
<pitti> so, AFAIK the current hardy langpacks still break firefox translatiosn
<pitti> asac: is the firefox scripts side fixed, or does that need work?
<pitti> once that's confirmed fixed (with the autobuilt weekly PPA packages preferably), we need an urgent hardy langpack update
<asac> pitti: rosetta and po2xpi are fine. its just that launchpad decided to forget about the latest templates and exports something rotten old
<asac> pitti: we can fix that manually by uploading ... just thought this would be the right time to track this down
<asac> as it happened for the 2nd time already
<pitti> asac: since intrepid exports are fine, could we use those as a workaround for hardy?
<asac> pitti: if its urgent to get langpacks out to hardy, i can show ArneGoetje how to manually upload that
<ArneGoetje> asac: what's the process there? how does that import work?
<pitti> asac: I'd call it pretty urgent, yes
<asac> ArneGoetje: you build firefox locally and then upload the en-US.xpi
<asac> that is in debian/lp-*/ folder
<ArneGoetje> asac: if that's so simple, then where is the problem on the rosetta side?
<asac> pitti: ok. wasnt really communicated to me that there were critical fixes in that langpack update
<asac> ArneGoetje: the problem is that launchpad shouldnt reset that on every upload
<ArneGoetje> asac: need to ping jtv about that?
<pitti> ok, that sounds like an action item now
<pitti> so eventually it's a rosetta problem, but we have a workaround?
<asac> ArneGoetje: we had lengthy discussions about that. the issue appears to be somewhere between soyuz, something and rosetta
<asac> we didnt investigate because of release things
<seb128> we should so stop using language packs :-)
<asac> pitti: we dont know if its a rosetta problem. jtv claims that launchpad uploads something old
<ArneGoetje> asac: orz
<pitti> yeah, it doesn't really help that intrepid KDE langpacks are also b0rked :/
<bryce> seb128: just have everything in german, right?
<asac> pitti: remember what we discussed about langpacks & security et al?
<pitti> asac: yes, I do
<asac> ok
<seb128> bryce: no, in french ;-)
<cjwatson> pitti: need to pedal harder on the LP appservers doing the import
<asac> just wanted to ensure you have the context.
<pitti> but I have NFC where the old ones could come from
<asac> pitti: action would be to ask infinity whats going on i think
<pitti> LP logs like *everything*, there must be a way to track this
<asac> ok lets add that as an official action and then do the workaround
<pitti> agreed
<asac> the action should be enough so it doesnt get forgotten
<pitti> once hardy is back to sane langpacks, we can fix it properly
<Keybuk> so I had noted that asac will help arne do a manual upload, and asac will talk to infinity to find out what's going on?
<Keybuk> is that right?
<asac> Keybuk: yes, but the infinity part might happen after release
<Keybuk> np
<asac> depending on what happens here :)
<Keybuk> [ACTION] asac to help ArneGoetje perform a manual upload
<MootBot> ACTION received:  asac to help ArneGoetje perform a manual upload
<Keybuk> [ACTION] asac to talk to infinity to find out why Launchpad is breaking firefox langpacks
<MootBot> ACTION received:  asac to talk to infinity to find out why Launchpad is breaking firefox langpacks
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> [TOPIC] Release Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  Release Status
<Keybuk> pitti: anything you want to cover today?
<pitti> SNAFU
<pitti> I mean, "not really"
<Keybuk> :p
<Keybuk> in which case
<Keybuk> AOB?
<pitti> I spent so much time with juggling release stuff that I'd think I'm up to date
<Keybuk> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:25.
<Keybuk> thanks everybody
<asac> thanks
<kwwii> thanks
<pitti> thanks everyone
<ArneGoetje> thanks
<calc> thanks
 * kwwii wonders how bryce knew that seb128 is half german
<seb128> Keybuk: thanks
<calc> so reports are now due at COB Monday right?
<pitti> just look at a map :)
<Keybuk> calc: right
<pitti> calc: ah, good point
<calc> ok
 * pitti adjusts gtimelog start of week
<seb128> pitti: still using gtimelog? ;-)
<Keybuk> oh damn
<pitti> seb128: sure, why not?
<pitti> it's nice
<pitti> and I like having a diary
<Keybuk> that means I have to update another bloody google calendar event
 * Keybuk weeps
<seb128> pitti: lazyness? ;-)
<bryce> thanks
<pitti> seb128: it helps me to focus and remember what I did
<Keybuk> I had to resort to *deleting* the previous desktop team meeting one, and creating a new one
<Keybuk> since it ended up both on tuesday and thursday at both 1300 and 1600
<pitti> Keybuk: there is this interesting brand new UI concept of "drag and drop"; maybe someone should tell Google about it
<Keybuk> pitti: that's what I did
<Keybuk> google calendar just gets things wrong
<pitti> just what I mean :)
<calc> it seems to work for non-recurring events
<cjwatson> it usually works fine for me if you click on the event and edit its times
<cjwatson> and then say "all the following"
<calc> i don't have anything recurring on my calendar that i have tried to move
<Keybuk> cjwatson: for me, it's "all the following" that always goes wrong
<Keybuk> it usually manages to duplicate the event, with only half the changes you made
<cjwatson> odd, that normally works fine for me
<Keybuk> cjwatson: I think it also depends whether the event is on your calendar or not
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Desktop Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Oct 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 28 Oct 11:00: Asia Oceania Membership Board | 28 Oct 16:00: Server Team | 28 Oct 17:00: Kernel Team | 29 Oct 17:00: QA Team
<cjwatson> Keybuk: mm, could do
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Java Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 28 Oct 11:00: Asia Oceania Membership Board | 28 Oct 16:00: Server Team | 28 Oct 17:00: Kernel Team | 29 Oct 17:00: QA Team
<Koon> anyone here for the Java meeting ?
<cody-somerville> I am
<Koon> cody-somerville: o/
<Koon> cody-somerville: while we wait for persia... somewhat Java related, I have a Tomcat 5.5 SRU waiting for acceptation
<Koon> bug 179447
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 179447 in tomcat5.5 "Installation of tomcat5.5 fails if sun-java-jdk is not installed" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/179447
 * persia is late and distracted, and hopes Koon can continue to chair
<Koon> persia: ok
<Koon> anyone else for the Java meeting ?
<Koon> slytherin ?
<Koon> hhmmmkay. Meeting agenda is up at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Meeting
<Koon> Which is basically a symlink to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Roadmap
<Koon> Without slytherin and robilad around, that just leaves me to update my point
 * cody-somerville reads SRU request.
<Koon> About Maven
<Koon> cody-somerville: thanks
<Koon> I probably won't be able to do an Ant-based packaging session for OpenWeek
<Koon> so if anyone feels like doing it, I can help to give pointers and good example libraries
<persia> I can maybe do it, but I have trouble with sessions later than 16:00, so scheduling is hard.
<persia> cody-somerville, Up for some Java?
<cody-somerville> I'm in Lexington at that time
<cody-somerville> Doing some infrastructure migration
<persia> Ah.
<Koon> i'll try to corner slytherin and try to convince him :)
<cody-somerville> :)
<Koon> That's about it for Maven.
<Koon> Any other subject someone wants to raise ?
<persia> We have the Jaunty spec for Maven.  Do we have anything else we want to do?  Release is very close, and I think we'd do well to think about next cycle.
<persia> OK.  I'll withdraw that question.  Nothing else from me.
<Koon> persia: do you plan to run a Java session at UDS, like we had in Prague ?
<cody-somerville> Koon, is tomcat5.5 starting with out a jdk expected behaviour?
<Koon> yes, it makes use of ECJ to compile JSPs so it doesn't require a JDK
<persia> Koon, I don't have a plan to do that.  Do you think we should have a Java roundtable session?
<Koon> persia: I won't be there so that would be mostly to gather momentum/ideas for the Java team
<Koon> cody-somerville: the bug is mostly to make it support openjdk, as a side-effect it also fixes the "should run with JRE" issue
<cody-somerville> Koon, this is because OpenJDK is what will be pulled in if you just install tomcat by its self without specifying a JRE?
<persia> Koon, OK.  I'll see if a Java roundtable can be arranged.  In what timezone do you expect to be?  Is morning or afternoon better for you remotely?
<Koon> cody-somerville: yes
<Koon> cody-somerville: hm, not exactly
<Koon> cody-somerville: let's discuss that on #ubuntu-java
<Koon> persia: I'll be stuck in Europe
<cody-somerville> ok
<Koon> so west-coast early mornings might be our best bet
<persia> Koon, I'll see if I can organise a morning session then : something around 18::00 UTC (If I'm doing my math right).
<persia> OK.  Any other topics for discussion?
<Koon> nope
<persia> Right then.  Good luck with final release prep :)
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Java Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 28 Oct 11:00: Asia Oceania Membership Board | 28 Oct 16:00: Server Team | 28 Oct 17:00: Kernel Team | 29 Oct 17:00: QA Team | 29 Oct 22:00: Platform Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 28 Oct 11:00: Asia Oceania Membership Board | 28 Oct 16:00: Server Team | 28 Oct 17:00: Kernel Team | 29 Oct 17:00: QA Team | 29 Oct 22:00: Platform Team | 30 Oct 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-10-24
<cjwatson> anyone here for the release meeting?
<cjwatson> I think Steve's crashed after the RC effort, so I wasn't planning a big formal round-up, but just a forum in case people have last-minute things they need to bring up
<cody-somerville> I'm here
<cody-somerville> But I don't have anything particular to say :)
<persia> I'm curious about relative hard freeze times for packages targeted at images vs. unseeded packages.
<davidm> cjwatson, kernel team had to do a new upload of MID kernel, it still had DYNAMIC_FTRACE turned on.
<davidm> That was the source of the boot and e1000e bugs in the main kerenl
<dendrobates> cjwatson: we are working on a fix for bug 287754
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 287754 in gtk-vnc "impossible to ungrab mouse/keyboard" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/287754
<lool> cjwatson: Concerning mobile, we discovered a bunch of bugs; important ones are addressed in a kourou upload which was accepted; one which we'd like to fix remains, but can't be nominated due to launchpad but; we can probably release with the bug and SRU it though
<lool> cjwatson: 288767
<cjwatson> persia: we're going to have to hard-freeze the archive to ensure everything builds and is in place in advance of Thursday, so I'd expect no more than a day or two's difference, although I don't have exact dates
<cjwatson> davidm: ok, I was sort of expecting that - linux-lpia?
<lool> It was uploaded
<cjwatson> dendrobates: it's not on https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+bugs?field.milestone=1326 - should it be?
<cjwatson> dendrobates: bugs need to be targeted or we won't notice them
<cjwatson> I agree that that looks critical though
<persia> cjwatson, That's plenty of time.  I just want to upload linux-rt and friends post final-kernel-upload, and pre-final-archive-freeze.  Thanks.
<dendrobates> It just came to my attention this morning I am still making changes, it will be targeted as soon as I save it.
<cjwatson> persia: the kernel should not be the last thing that lands. :-)
<persia> cjwatson, The -rt kernel, or the base kernel?
<cjwatson> persia: base
<davidm> cjwatson, yes linux-lpia
<cjwatson> lool: nasty, but does seem fixable in an SRU
<persia> OK.  I feel safe.  -rt will be late, but it's not default : I just want to avoid FTBFS or missing a bug fixed in base.
<cjwatson> how long does it take to build?
<cjwatson> we're going to have to tie up i386 buildds with language packs on Sunday
<dendrobates> cjwatson: getting a launchpad error when I try to taget 287754 , will try again in a bit.
<persia> On i386 linux-rt is ~ 1 hour, lrm-rt is ~ 5 minutes, and linux-meta-rt is ~ 5 minutes.
<ogra> cjwatson, well, if i find a fix in time for 288767 it would surely make sense to get it in
<ogra> though i agree it *could* be an SRU
<cjwatson> davidm: how's progress on the linux-firmware copyright file?
<davidm> pgraner, I and BenC and smb_tp as working that issue
<davidm> bug #262564 is now taken care of
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 262564 in linux-restricted-modules "copyright file is incorrect" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/262564
<davidm> bug #284405 still in progress
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 284405 in linux-firmware "Copyright file is incomplete" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/284405
<cjwatson> davidm: OK, I'm going to drop the priority of the latter to high
 * davidm is away: 
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-10-25
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 28 Oct 11:00: Asia Oceania Membership Board | 28 Oct 16:00: Server Team | 28 Oct 17:00: Kernel Team | 28 Oct 19:00: EMEA Membership Board | 29 Oct 17:00: QA Team | 29 Oct 22:00: Platform Team
<lool> doko: Sorry, I was disconnected; did I miss anything?
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-10-26
<Mamarok> short question: is it possible to subscribe a mailing list to a wiki page?
<persia> Mamarok, Maybe, but that's probably best asked somewhere else.  Might be tricky for wiki.ubuntu.com with OpenID, but maybe reading the docs for the wiki engine might help.
<Mamarok> persia: thanks, will dive into it :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-10-19
<kees> jdstrand, mdeslaur: ok, quick meeting
<kees> I'm working on regression testing for the karmic rc, and some more kernel security updates tests
<kees> doing triage this week, generally trying to hit RC bugs over the head
<kees> that's all from me
<mdeslaur> my turn
<mdeslaur> I'm doing poppler updates, and will do iso testing thursday
<jdstrand> my turn?
<mdeslaur> and am on community
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: yes
<jdstrand> I'm in 'happy place' this week. I'm going to work on elinks and pygresql. I also plan to do iso testing and bug squishing
<jdstrand> if I have time, I'll try to work on the gnutls regression (that no one in Ubuntu has complained about yet)
<jdstrand> that's it for me
<mdeslaur> kees: could you look at bug #455451
<ubottu> Bug 455451 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/455451 is private
<mdeslaur> kees: since you did the original update?
<mdeslaur> whoops
<kees> mdeslaur: sure
<jdstrand> any other items?
<kees> anyone on channel have any questions for the security team before we end the meeting?
<jdstrand> kees: shall we adjourn?
<kees> jdstrand: yup, sounds done.  thanks!
<jdstrand> o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-10-20
<pleia2> ok, we're getting ready for an ubuntu community learning project meeting
<bodhi_zazen> =)
<bodhi_zazen> who is here for the meeting ?
 * pleia2 
<cprofitt> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 18:02. The chair is cprofitt.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<cprofitt> Hello all and welcome to the UCLP meeting
<cprofitt> please just say here if you are present for the meeting
<pleia2> thanks for chairing, cprofitt :)
<pleia2> here
<bodhi_zazen> here =)
<swoody> o/
<doctormo> here
<cprofitt> I would like permission to open an agenda item not on the list.
<pleia2> sure
<cprofitt> [TOPIC] Civility
<MootBot> New Topic:  Civility
<cprofitt> I would like  to express a feeling that I think we all share...
<cprofitt> that there is a need to be civil during meetings and discussions (formal and informal)
<bodhi_zazen> +1 cprofitt
<pleia2> being mindful of the CoC would help, and keeping in mind that we're all on the same team here
<cprofitt> we each have our own passions involved in this project, but a person's passions should not control a project. We all need to do a better job of seeing the project from a holistic view and take the time to pause when considering the view points of others
<bodhi_zazen> I think a lack of civil discourse is detrimental to this project
<swoody> a big +1 on this...
<cprofitt> I hope that we all reflect on potentially 'inflammatory' language and using it to make a point.
<swoody> from my UCLP peon perspective, there is a lot of great talent and leadership in this project. I think being able to overcome your personal biases and opinions for the team this could be an amazing team :)
<cprofitt> we really need to curb that... this is not a 'debate' club meeting, but a team trying to produce something to assist the community.
<cprofitt> We all have one goal that is the same -- educate users and potential users
<bodhi_zazen> I also think we need to re-focus our efforts and I think we should at least touch base on the fact that we are using Moodle to "repackage" or present material in ways condusive to learning, and not a documentation project
<bodhi_zazen> documentation == wiki
<cprofitt> can we wait on that bodhi_zazen
<cprofitt> lets stick with the civility first.
<cprofitt> please
<bodhi_zazen> yep, but I am throwing it out as it seems related , it the root cause of problems
<cprofitt> [VOTE] We all need to be more aware of the words we use in expressing our opinions and take time to understand the points of view different from our own
<MootBot> Please vote on:  We all need to be more aware of the words we use in expressing our opinions and take time to understand the points of view different from our own.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<cprofitt> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cprofitt. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<swoody> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from swoody. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<bodhi_zazen> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from bodhi_zazen. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<cprofitt> any last votes?
<cprofitt> last call for votes
<cprofitt> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<cprofitt> [AGREED] The group agreed to make a conscious effort to be more civil
<MootBot> AGREED received:  The group agreed to make a conscious effort to be more civil
<cprofitt> thank you.
<cprofitt> [TOPIC] Course Organization
<MootBot> New Topic:  Course Organization
<cprofitt> We discussed quite a bit of this on the list...
<cprofitt> and I wish to reflect my understanding...
<cprofitt> We are trying to make courses that will be A)  On-line via Moodle and/or IRC B) Course materials that can be used with in-person training
<bodhi_zazen> o/
<cprofitt> We will not force a course 'creator/author' to make content in all of those formats
<cprofitt> the choice will be up to the course author
<cprofitt> the team may try to convert material from one format to the other
<cprofitt> ... is that accurate?
<cprofitt> go ahead bodhi_zazen
<bodhi_zazen> IMO our final product should be generic / versatile enough to be used in almost any content
<pleia2> right, but the official course format is asciidoc, and if someone joins the team who just wants to write material (for any format) we will point them to doctormo's upcoming docs on how
<bodhi_zazen> one should be able to use our "template" or outline in a classroom, IRC, independent study, should not really matter
<cprofitt> pleia2, I missed several meetings... was the asciidoc format voted on?
<pleia2> yeah, what bodhi_zazen said
<pleia2> cprofitt: yes
<Vantrax> im 90% afk sorry guys, very busy at work getting some things ready for deadline
<pleia2> bios_element reviewed a number of formats and showed them all to us
<pleia2> cprofitt: might want to check the mail archives for his full text email of his analysis
<cprofitt> pleia2, have we posted that on our wiki page?
<pleia2> ah, here we go: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-learning/2009-September/000050.html
<cprofitt> we need to make sure that people have that information if they are considering assisting us.
<cprofitt> thanks for the link to the comparison...
<pleia2> cprofitt: doesn't look like it, we're waiting on finalization of doctormo's instructions before we have people diving in
<pleia2> we need standards for this, doctormo and bioselement have been writing them :)
<pleia2> (it's all in bzr)
<cprofitt> I agree... but it might help us if it is mentioned as a standard... on our site even if we do not have a complete set of instructions
<doctormo> Indeed
<pleia2> cprofitt: we're trying
<cprofitt> I think with that being officially adopted we should strive to have our first course actually be one that shows how to use asciidocs
<cprofitt> inside our framework
<doctormo> That was something BiosElement was working on.
<pleia2> that's what doctormo and bioselement are writing...
<cprofitt> pleia2, I would put a basic statement about it on the main page -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning
<pleia2> ok
<cprofitt> under the Course creation section
<cprofitt> not a complete instruction set, but just a note that asciidocs will be used
<cprofitt> We obviously will need the asciidoc course developed in Moodle and in-person format... would IRC be appropriate as well?
<pleia2> yes, as I explained in my email the core material is in asciidoc, and then adapted for all three formats
<cprofitt> ok.... cool...
<cprofitt> sorry I did not recall that detail in your email.
<cprofitt> doctormo, do you have an eta or target date for that course?
<pleia2> cprofitt: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-learning/2009-October/000067.html
<pleia2> sent it out 6 days ago
<cprofitt> I remember the email, in general, but not the specific part about an asciidoc how-to course
<pleia2> oh ok :)
<cprofitt> I have been working on the Moodle examples... to assist us with that...
<cprofitt> which I know you put in one of your emails.
<doctormo> cprofitt: There is a few steps, one involves getting the bzr/lp checkout, one involves editing text files and the final one is commiting branches.
<cprofitt> sounds good doctormo - I am just curious if you have a target date for the release of the course that will teach people how to produce courses for us
<cprofitt> that will be an important step forward in having others contribute
<doctormo> cprofitt: I'd targeted last month, but we just didn't reach it.
<cprofitt> Trying for November then?
<doctormo> Trying for January.
<cprofitt> [ACTION] Doctormo is targeting January for finishing the course on how to contribute to UCLP
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Doctormo is targeting January for finishing the course on how to contribute to UCLP
 * cprofitt nods
<bodhi_zazen> January :p (I understand, just couild not resist the emoticon)
<cprofitt> OK...
<doctormo> Hopefully it'll be done before then.
<pleia2> in the meantime I've still been writing in odt
<cprofitt> one other thing that I raised in my email.
<cprofitt> I would like use to organize content in to sections
<pleia2> I'll convert to asciidoc eventually, but we want to get rolling even if the official dev docs aren't done
<cprofitt> so that we will not have material duplicated
 * pleia2 nods
<cprofitt> if there is a 'using ubuntu' strand that involved using nano and a 'maintaining' ubuntu strand that uses nano
<doctormo> I've seen the sections that you want to create cprofitt, I'm not in agreement to the precise layout.
<cprofitt> then content on nano would be in its own course
<bodhi_zazen> and have people identify what section(s) they are working on
<cprofitt> and in both strands
<doctormo> But I think we've been over some of it
<cprofitt> that is the general concept.
<bodhi_zazen> If many people are working on sections, we need a way they can collaborate
<pleia2> bodhi_zazen: that's already begun, it's being done on the wiki
<doctormo> The organisational collaberation anyway
<cprofitt> are you referring to this page pleia2 - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/UbuntuDesktopTopics
<pleia2> cprofitt: yes, all 5 of the pages have owners
<cprofitt> let me take some examples from there then
<pleia2> then the sections are split off into "I'm working on this now" - so people can take ownership of them and let others know they're being worked on
<pleia2> I am not sure we have to decide upon specifics of the courses at this meeting though
 * Vantrax likes where this is heading
<cprofitt> Synaptic Package Manager, Aptitude and Apt, What are repositories, and how do they work, Partitioning and Fstab, Linux file permissions, Sudo and Root, Linux file system hierarchy
<cprofitt> those topics likely cross over to both the administering and the using areas
<cprofitt> agree?
<bodhi_zazen> I would put them in admin and not general use
<cprofitt> I do not think we have to organize specifics, but I want to ensure we are understanding one another
<cprofitt> but our 'use' has been labeled by the graphic as 'desktop'
<bodhi_zazen> I think of using more of OOO, firefox, etc
<cprofitt> and administering 'server'
<pleia2> I think these topic labels are fluid, and I agree with bodhi_zazen
<cprofitt> ok...
 * cprofitt pauses
<cprofitt> I am not sure I am communicating this well
<cprofitt> I apologize
<cprofitt> I think there is the potential for course overlap and wish to avoid that if possible
<pleia2> yes
<cprofitt> we have people in charge of the areas... but I think we need to have a process to look at those areas and not let them become silos
<pleia2> the easiest way is putting topics on both pages, marking that they are responsible on both
<cprofitt> that have over lapped content
<pleia2> not the most elegant, but probably what we have to do
 * cprofitt nods
<doctormo> What was the thoughts on considering use to be the execution of goals that produce results outside of the computer's own self maintaientance.
<cprofitt> pleia2, I think you and I are on the same page.
<doctormo> People don't use vi or nano to edit their normal documents.
<cprofitt> I am not concerned with the specifics, just the fact that we want to avoid duplication
<bodhi_zazen> I do doctormo =)
<Vantrax> I think there will be overlap, but there are different levels of detail in use in regard to applications
<doctormo> bodhi_zazen: special case
<cprofitt> Vantrax - I agree.
<bodhi_zazen> I understand ;P
<Vantrax> one should be an introduction to command line text editing (nano)
<cprofitt> The key is to not produced 'base' levels inside several courses
<Vantrax> one should be advanced command line text editing (vi)
<swoody> +1 cprofitt
<pleia2> cprofitt: +1
<cprofitt> but to remove the 'base' level and make it its own course
<bodhi_zazen> I for one suggest we do not separate out command line from graphical
<doctormo> Overlap may not be too much of a problem, I don't think the project is big enough yet for it to be a problem and so long as organisation is being carried out on those few pages in the same form, it would be easy enough to check.
<Vantrax> but there will be some overlap
<bodhi_zazen> IMO command line tools should be included where appropriate
 * cprofitt coughs
<swoody> I think a general 'base' knowledge course, and then if needed, further info into a specific area if it's required for those needs
<cprofitt> we are getting in to the specifics
<bodhi_zazen> some content there will be more , others less =)
<pleia2> doctormo: yeah, for now it's not too huge of an administrative challenge, but I think we want to make sure we're aware that it'll come up and to check for it :)
<Vantrax> good point:P
<cprofitt> I would prefer not to discuss the specifics... nor the probability of overlap...
<Vantrax> Long as we are aware of the issue, and have a way to differentiate the different courses it will be fine
<cprofitt> just to acknowledge that if it happens we will try to mitigate it
<bodhi_zazen> +1 cprofitt
<pleia2> if I start writing "now you aptitude install" in a Desktop course I'll be sure to cross-reference with Server course to make sure I'm not rewriting "basic aptitude" instructions
<doctormo> cprofitt: The probability and the cost of administrating the overlap seem fairly pertinant.
<bodhi_zazen> I also like the wiki syntax "using any editor"
<bodhi_zazen> rather then specifying nano vs kate vs gvim
<cprofitt> we will table the discussion to the mail list then doctormo
<cprofitt> I motion we close this topic and move it to the mailing list
<swoody> +1 bodhi_zazen , if how to use an editor has been covered by a previous 'base' topic
<pleia2> cprofitt: +1
 * cprofitt topic closed
<doctormo> +0 I have no strong feelings about moving it anywhere, this place was as good as anywhere.
<bodhi_zazen> swoody: that *should* be a linky to the wiki
<cprofitt> does anyone else have any topics that were not put on the agenda?
<pleia2> I'm going to blog about the project sometime this week
<pleia2> mostly based on my email, try to remind people that we exist and all
<doctormo> pleia2: Want me to blog at the same time?
<pleia2> and I'm doing an Ubuntu Open Week presentation on it, so I'll share the draft of that with everyone soon in case you guys have things to add
 * cprofitt nods
<cprofitt> +1 pleia2
<cprofitt> anyone else?
<pleia2> doctormo: sure, maybe you discuss how the base documentation format (bzr, asciidoc) for the project is coming along, and how to contribute in the meantime?
<pleia2> my blog post will be some overlap in that regard, but you're the expert in our base format :)
<doctormo> pleia2: Expert you say :-)
<doctormo> pleia2: OK I'll document it, perhaps it'll give me something to go to BiosElement with.
<pleia2> well, you and bioselement are better than the rest of us ;)
 * pleia2 nods
<doctormo> cprofitt, meeting over?
<cprofitt> unless there are other topics...
<cprofitt> do you wish to motion to adjourn doctormo
<pleia2> I'm done
<cprofitt> I motion that we close the meeting
<cprofitt> any seconds?
<swoody> o/
<cprofitt> any objections?
 * swoody seconds
<cprofitt> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 18:40.
<pleia2> thanks everyone
<cprofitt> thank you all for coming.
<doctormo> thanks
 * doctormo goes back to disney's aladin
<Technoviking> morning all
<pleia2> good morning
<sabdfl> hello all
<dholbach> good morning
<dholbach> Technoviking: nice, you made it
<dholbach> hey sabdfl, hi pleia2
<dholbach> I'd say that's quorum already - who else do we have here?
<sabdfl> Technoviking: morning :-)
<dholbach> I have a bad internet connection here, can anybody else lead the meeting?
<dholbach> AFAICS we have two agenda items on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda (no mdke here for the wiki licensing and U1 shouldn't really be on the agenda anymore)
<popey> o/
<dholbach> hey popey
<pleia2> hey popey
<dholbach> any volunteers for running the meeting? :)
<sabdfl> i'm happy to do so
<sabdfl> welcome, new CC
<popey> Ahoi hoi!
<sabdfl> can we remove the one.ubuntu.com item?
<sabdfl> it was for information purposes, and everyone is now aware of it
 * dholbach removes is
<dholbach> it
<sabdfl> ok. we're skipping the team wiki issue till mdke joins us
<sabdfl> CoC - any thoughts before we move to a vote?
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> daniel, can you drive the vote please?
<sabdfl> my mootbotfu is not up to it
<dholbach> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 06:06. The chair is dholbach.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<dholbach> [TOPIC] Proposed CoC changes
<MootBot> New Topic:  Proposed CoC changes
<dholbach> is http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mako/ubuntu-codeofconduct/proposed-revision/files the right link?
<popey> are we merely voting on its acceptance as the new CoC or its implementation?
<sabdfl> just voting on the text
<popey> ok
<sabdfl> dholbach: technically we should point to a particular revision on the branch
<dholbach> I don't think it's the right branch
<Technoviking> dholbach: that point to revision 8, sabdfl made a 9th revision
<dholbach> my internet is just so slow here
<dholbach> so it takes me ages to find it
<pleia2> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~sabdfl/ubuntu-codeofconduct/proposed-revision/files/9
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~sabdfl/ubuntu-codeofconduct/proposed-revision/files/9
<sabdfl> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mako/ubuntu-codeofconduct/proposed-revision/annotate/head%3A/CodeOfConduct.txt
<pleia2> I think was the last
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mako/ubuntu-codeofconduct/proposed-revision/annotate/head%3A/CodeOfConduct.txt
<dholbach> can everybody double-check?
<sabdfl> it was rev 9 on *my* branch, but mako merged it in as rev 8 on his
<sabdfl> it's accurate as it stands
<popey> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~sabdfl/ubuntu-codeofconduct/proposed-revision/annotate/8/CodeOfConduct.txt
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~sabdfl/ubuntu-codeofconduct/proposed-revision/annotate/8/CodeOfConduct.txt
<popey> gah
<dholbach> sabdfl: so no diff between the two?
<popey> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mako/ubuntu-codeofconduct/proposed-revision/annotate/8/CodeOfConduct.txt
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mako/ubuntu-codeofconduct/proposed-revision/annotate/8/CodeOfConduct.txt
<popey> that one?
<sabdfl> dholbach: nothing material - the mako link is the correct one
<dholbach> ok great
<sabdfl> let's move to vote
<dholbach> [VOTE] Do we approve http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mako/ubuntu-codeofconduct/proposed-revision/annotate/head%3A/CodeOfConduct.txt as the new Code of Conduct?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Do we approve http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mako/ubuntu-codeofconduct/proposed-revision/annotate/head%3A/CodeOfConduct.txt as the new Code of Conduct?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<sabdfl> well, no, that's the tip URL
<sabdfl> but lets vote anyway
<sabdfl> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from sabdfl. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<Technoviking> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Technoviking. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<dholbach> +1
<popey> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from popey. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<MootBot> +1 received from dholbach. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<dholbach> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<dholbach> woohoo! :)
<dholbach> nice
<sabdfl> thanks all, we have an updated CoC
<dholbach> I'm happy we finally did that :)
<sabdfl> popey: want to talk implementation?
<dholbach> hey mako
<mako> sorry i'm a little late
<sabdfl> np
<sabdfl> mako, we just voted on and approved the new CoC per your rev 8
<popey> I'd like to see a system whereby it's clear which verion of the CoC someone signed
<sabdfl> agreed
<mako> oh, wonderful
<popey> and allow people to 'upgrade' their signature
<dholbach> is there a launchpad bug/blueprint open for that?
<mako> needless to say (and for the record), i am also in favor
<popey> or elect not to
<sabdfl> i believe this is tracked in LP already, but we don't have flows around upgrading or displaying it
<sabdfl> popey: can you chat with curtis hovey about that?
<popey> sure
<sabdfl> he's in US timezones
<sabdfl> i think the real plan is to generalise it, so any project can publish agreements / terms / sla's and we track who's agreed to what
<popey> that would be useful
<dholbach> that sounds great
<dholbach> anything else on the topic of CoC?
<sabdfl> sounds like a swamp of legalese to me, but hey, full speed ahead :-)
<dholbach> :-)
<popey> heh
<sabdfl> dholbach: will you publish it in all the right places?
<mako> that seems like a minor issue. and in general, we want to avoid having to deal with arguments like, "well, i only agreed to version 1.0 of the CoC, not 1.1"
<popey> but we equally don't want people to say 'Hey, I never signed up for that!'
<mako> that's certainly not a reason to not check
<popey> GPL v2 or later ..
<sabdfl> i would like to have a stab at generalising the CoC, so that other projects don't have to fork it
<Technoviking> someone should publishize it to the Planet
<dholbach> sabdfl: I'll talk to newz2000 to get it on ubuntu.com - not sure wherelse it needs to go
<dholbach> sabdfl: but I'll have a look
<sabdfl> so, that can be a goal for a CoC 2.0
<sabdfl> Technoviking: go ahead and blog it!
<pleia2> Technoviking: I can
<pleia2> or you :)
<dholbach> both!
<dholbach> :)
<sabdfl> for the moment, i think we're wrapped on that front
<Technoviking> sweet
<dholbach> cool
<popey> heh fill the front page with verbatim copies of the CoC :)
<pleia2> dholbach: can you let me know when you have it "published in all the right places"?
<popey> (front page of the planet)
<mako> sabdfl: ah! emma jane and i already have a branch where we started working on that
<sabdfl> dholbach: want to introduce CommunityCouncil/Delegation/Proposal ?
<dholbach> pleia2: will do - I'll file a bug and subscribe you
<pleia2> dholbach: great, thanks!
<dholbach> [TOPIC] Clarify expectations of Team Councils and Boards
<MootBot> New Topic:  Clarify expectations of Team Councils and Boards
<dholbach> sabdfl: sure
<sabdfl> cool mako! i didn't have any great insight other than the need to generalise so if you're working on it i'm +1 and won't interfere
<dholbach> we've grown a lot of team councils and boards in the Ubuntu community already and it seems like a good idea to clarify expectations for those governance bodies
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/Delegation/Proposal is very common, very simple steps to try to go forward and expect similar things of all of them
<dholbach> if we can agree on it, I'd like to add merge https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/Delegation/Proposal  into https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/Delegation
<sabdfl> i think it could be fleshed out a bit more
<sabdfl> not sure if it's best for me to do that right now, or later
<dholbach> sabdfl: what parts are you thinking of?
<sabdfl> but i'd like to see more specific articulation of the general model:
<sabdfl>  - governance boards (policy, dispute resolution)
<sabdfl>  - ops (moderators in forums, ops in irc, general uploaders in the dev team, etc)
<mako> dholbach: so i've seen this before and there's nothing in there that i find problematic
<sabdfl>  - members (substantial contributors)
<sabdfl> that's a structural pattern that isn't clear to me from this doc
 * mako nods to sabdfl
<sabdfl> it's not rigid, but i would like to see the pattern articulated somewhere
<sabdfl> dholbach: will you lead the discussion while i have a stab at that in the document?
<sabdfl> apologies for real-time editing :-/
<dholbach> sure, that all sounds good to me
<jono> I am happy to help with this too if needed, dholbach
<dholbach> pleia2, Technoviking, popey: do you have any other comments on the proposal?
<popey> no
<pleia2> no, looks good
<Technoviking> fine here
<dholbach> I agree with sabdfl - having team councils approve members is a great way to build a community and recognise great contributions
<jono> agreed
<dholbach> and mentioning dispute resolution makes sense too
<dholbach> I think we have a document about that on the wiki already
<dholbach> something in the BuildingCommunity/ namespace?
<dholbach> can somebody help me find it? maybe we could link to it as a "howto"
<jono> about councils approving members?
<dholbach> no, sorry, dispute resolution
<jono> oh right
<dholbach> for membership wiki.u.c/Membership should be good enough
<jono> I remember writing something up about it a long time back
<jono> I will see if I can find it
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CodeOfConductGuidelines links to an unratified Dispute Resolution document
<dholbach> my internet is dog-slow here, so don't wait on me finding it :)
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CodeOfConductDisputeResolution
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildingCommunity/DealingWithConflict is what I was thinking of
<mako> yeah, the second links looks a bit more threshed out
<jono> dholbach, thats the doc I was thinking of too
<dholbach> jono: I updated it a few weeks ago and linked it from a few other places too
<jono> I could also take my conflict chapter from The art of community and put there there too
<dholbach> sure, that'd be good
<dholbach> so https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildingCommunity/DealingWithConflict looks good to all of you?
<popey> yeah, I'd not seen that page before.. it's pretty good
<dholbach> cool, it'd be good if we could refer to a "howto" from the delegation page
<popey> could do with a couple of exit points for where the process fails
<popey> e.g. 'get everyone on irc', if people refuse to join, or evade meetings.. what to do next
<dholbach> maybe Jono's book chapter has more detail? :)
<jono> dholbach, it does
<jono> it talkes through a conflict resolution scenario too
<dholbach> good
<dholbach> I'm not so sure what sabdfl meant when he mentioned "policy" - so I'd wait for him to re-emerge from the wiki editing
<jono> I will see if I can chop out the chapter and put it online
<dholbach> thanks jono
<jono> :)
<dholbach> does anybody have thoughts about the structure of moderators in forums, ops in irc, general uploaders in the dev team, etc
<dholbach> ?
<jono> what do you mean?
<dholbach> sabdfl:  mentioned it above
<dholbach> err
<dholbach> sabdfl mentioned it above
<mako> i mean, i don't have any general comments beyond the fact that they should be people who can/do satisify the requirements laid out in the LCoC
<pleia2> I'd need to hear more from the specific teams about what they think the structure should be
<jussi01> Thats a pretty broad group there.
<sabdfl> take a look at what's there now, folks, is it headed in the right direction?
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/Delegation/Proposal?action=diff&rev2=8&rev1=6
<jono> sabdfl, looks good to me
<jono> I feel like we also need to link to a page detailing meeting best practise
<jono> how to run a meeting, essentially
<jono> we can check into this
<sabdfl> ok, i will finish this edit in a while if you are all happy with the direction
<pleia2> these changes look good so far
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildingCommunity/TeamReporting https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildingCommunity/TeamIrcSessions probably
<Technoviking> looks good to me
<dholbach> sabdfl: I'm happy with it too
<sabdfl> i will include those links, dholbach
<dholbach> super
<jono> sounds good
<mako> best practice stuff is great. councils should have as many of those sorts of resources
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildingCommunity/KnowledgeBase has a lot of good stuff :)
<jono> indeed :)
<mako> but we should be clear to distinguish best practices from policies and guidelines. our guidlines should be as small as possible and as reactive as we can
<dholbach> maybe we should also mention the team-council mailing list or whatever it's called?
<dholbach> mako: agreed, that should be clear
<sabdfl> i think it's already there, i'll bolster it a little
<jussi01> Just one thing slightly related to that delegation page, (if its inappropriate for now pull me up) is there a reason we only get people to sign the CoC and not sign the LCoC?
<jono> dholbach, it is in there
<dholbach> jono: ok cool
<jono> I am planning a few posts there this week
<dholbach> jussi01: I'm happy to take somebody's "word of honour" for it as soon as they step up as a leader
<dholbach> I personally don't think we need a technical implementation for it
<pleia2> at the end of the the CoC there is a clause about leaders being required to follow the LCoC
<dholbach> ah cool :)
<jussi01> oh, I didnt notice that. :)
<dholbach>  #include <lcoc>    :-)
<jussi01> hehe
<dholbach> maybe a word about sharing best-practices on https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/team-council-members ?
<dholbach> but maybe that's too obvious :)
<jono> dholbach, indeed
 * popey wasnt aware of that list
<jono> I would like to encourage people to use that list as a means of sharing best practice as well as asking for help with governance issues
<jono> popey, this reminds me, we need to ensure the new CC is on
<pleia2> popey: I wasn't either :)
<jono> popey, it is a list for Ubuntu community governance board members
<jono> pleia2, popey I will add you if that is ok?
<pleia2> jono: yes, thank you
<jono> np
<dholbach> anything else you want to include/change on  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/Delegation/Proposal ?
<popey> jono: sure
<jono> cool
<popey> alan@popey.com
<jono> dholbach, looks good, I think it hits the main points
<jussi01> dholbach: you may want to actually ad the address for the tem council list there? or a link to the lists.ubuntu.com page for it
<dholbach> jussi01: I think sabdfl is editing right now
<sabdfl> ok, take a look now
<sabdfl> sorry for the deep dive on the doc
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/Delegation/Proposal?action=diff&rev2=9&rev1=6
<jono> this looks good sabdfl
 * dholbach fixes a typo and adds https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/team-council-members
<jono> sorry folks, I need to run back to the apartment, ready for my call with dholbach in 8mins
<jono> I will be back soon
<dholbach> I'm happy with it
 * dholbach waits for it to save
<dholbach> if nobody spots anything urgent, shall we proceed to vote?
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/Delegation/Proposal?action=diff&rev2=10&rev1=9 is my last edit
<dholbach> sabdfl, mako, popey, pleia2, Technoviking: anything else? ready to vote?
<popey> ij
<popey> er, ok
<Technoviking> looks great to me
<sabdfl> ready
<mako> yeah, still going over it
<pleia2> needs to be reviewed for typos ("can he ha helpful guide"), but otherwise looks good
<mako> yeah, this looks great
<dholbach> [VOTE] Approve https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/Delegation/Proposal for all Ubuntu Team Councils and Boards?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Approve https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/Delegation/Proposal for all Ubuntu Team Councils and Boards?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<dholbach> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dholbach. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<Technoviking> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Technoviking. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<popey> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from popey. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<dholbach> sabdfl? :)
<sabdfl> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from sabdfl. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<dholbach> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<dholbach> thanks a lot everybody and thanks sabdfl for that fast editing! :)
<sabdfl> i think that concludes the agenda
<dholbach> does anybody of you have anything else to discuss?
<mako> +1
<mako> too late :)
 * dholbach needs to rush off for a call in a sec
<dholbach> mako: oh sorry
<mako> it's ok :)
<mako> it's in the log
<sabdfl> alright, thank you all, look forward to seeing you again soon
<dholbach> yeah :)
<dholbach> thanks a lot everybody
<sabdfl> thanks to those who got up extra early today :-)
<dholbach> yeah :-)
<sabdfl> thanks dholbach and jono for preparing much of this for us
<Technoviking> thanks all , fantastic meeting
<dholbach> if nobody else does it, I'll do minutes later on
<pleia2> thanks everyone
<sabdfl> cheers all
<dholbach> (might take a bit
<dholbach> )
<dholbach> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 07:00.
<dholbach> bye
<popey> o/
<czajkowski> nicely done :)
<mako> thanks everyone :)
<lool> Hi
<NCommander> morning
 * NCommander is here for now, but will not chair since I will be running before the meeting concludes
<ogra> i'll chair as i said
<NCommander> Just saying :-)
<ogra> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 07:59. The chair is ogra.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<ogra> dyfet, plars, GrueMaster, JamieBennett, StevenK, lool, paulliu, NCommander
<ogra> ping ! :)
 * NCommander waves
 * plars is here, full throttle in hand
<ogra> davidm, are you attending ?
<dyfet> hi
<JamieBennett> hey
<davidm> ogra, I am
 * ogra waits for StevenK and lool attention bits :)
 * StevenK shores
<ogra> ah :)
<ogra> [topic] Action item review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action item review
<ogra> StevenK to look into UNR ISO size tweaks
 * GrueMaster has coffee, will snooze^h^h^h be alert.
<paulliu> hi
<NCommander> I can't pull up the wiki :-/
<ogra> StevenK, how does it look
<plars> ogra: links?
<ogra> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20091020
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20091020
<StevenK> The UNR ISO is currently 680MB, I was going to add de
<ogra> \o/
<ogra> good move !
<ogra> sounds good then
<ogra> - lool to file a bug about armel fsck issues
<lool> I dont remember that bug  :-(
 * ogra tries to find something ... 
<lool> Oh I think I filed it
<lool> During the meeting
<ogra> hmm, cant find something either
<ogra> which one is it ? my evolution keeps quiet on searches
<ogra> weird
<lool> ogra: Oh it wasn't fsck
<ogra> well, lets move on and dig after the meeting
<lool> I dont know why you said that last week
<lool> It was binfmt_misc
<ogra> oh
<lool> I filed 450363 and it was resolved
<lool> [14:20] <lool> amitk: I didn't have a chance to report it, but binfmt_misc sseems to be missing in dove
<ogra> i think you pasted a log and i just grabbed fsck out there
<lool> [14:21] <ogra> lool, are you trying to run a karmic ext4 fs with a jaunty kernel ?
<ogra> before we discussed it
<ogra> yeah
<lool> For some reason you seemed to believe that was fsck related but it's not
<ogra> sorry, my failt
<ogra> *fault
<ogra> ok
<ogra> - plars to move UNR bugs from non-karmic to karmic where necessary
<lool> Don't worry, I an blaming you!   :-)
<lool> *am
<ogra> phew, lucky me :P
<plars> seems I can still nominate bugs but not actually accept them
<plars> I nominated a few more, but I need to talk to the QA guys again about getting the ability to do that
<ogra> can you give a list to someon who can ?
<plars> for now, best to look at the subscribed list
<ogra> ok
<plars> for ubuntu-unr team
<plars> focus on high/critical
<ogra> so we come to the intresting action items :)
<ogra> - new rolling action: everyone with upload privs to look inot sponsoring bugs next week and report which ones he closed
<ogra> i sponsored the fis for bug 445358
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 445358 in cdrdao "cdrdao fails to build on armv7l" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/445358
<ogra> *fix
<ogra> nothing more sadly :/
<ogra> lool, StevenK, what did you guys sponsor this week ? :)
<lool> Well it's Jamie's
<ogra> its a sponsoring upload
 * lool marks a big one in ogra's box and a small zero in hi
<lool> his
<ogra> heh
<StevenK> ogra: I uploaded jijget (or so) for maco
<ogra> StevenK, did you do any sponsoring ?
<ogra> ++
<ogra> cool
<StevenK> I was trying to remember how to spell it, and failed
<StevenK> So I guessed
<ogra> well, at least we have something on the list
<ogra> lets improve that ;)
<ogra> ok ...
<ogra> - anyone who has spare test cycles to test lool's ffmpeg packages
 * ogra shamefully hans his head 
<ogra> *hangs too ...
<ogra> did anyone test the packages ?
<lool> Yes
<StevenK> If that's an arm package, ENOHARDWARE
<ogra> apart from the producer i mean :)
<GrueMaster> I did some testing.  I don't have a lot of test videos, but what I do have seemed to play ok, even from an NFS share.
<lool> I asked for testing on any arch and got some
<ogra> StevenK, right, but dyfet NCommander plars JamieBennett or GrueMaster could test
<lool> plars reported that performance did not improve on non-NEON hardware which is ok
 * NCommander hangs his head
<lool> and it was pushed to karmic so it is sufficiently tested at this point
<ogra> ok
<ogra> anything we need to do about past specs in the spec review topic ?
<ogra> [topic] spec review
<MootBot> New Topic:  spec review
<ogra> who has ideas for lucid and wants to share ?
<NCommander> ext2 images versus vfat
<ogra> * casper cleanup/speedup
<StevenK> On arm?
<NCommander> hardware based system recovery
<StevenK> Stacked livefses
<NCommander> StevenK, in general, but mostly targetted for ARM
<ogra> * stacked squashfs builds for live images (separate rootfs and kernel/modules completely)
<NCommander>  * clean up d-cd armel backends to remove a ton of code duplication between imx51 and dove
<ogra> oh, StevenK beats me :)
 * StevenK beats ogra 
<NCommander>  * ARM Softbootloader (again)
<StevenK> Application changes for UNR
<ogra> * my personal one: move debian-cd for imx51 completely to redboot-tools
<StevenK> Session changes for UNR
<StevenK> Moblin Remix Revisited
<NCommander>  * UNR for ARM revisited
<ogra> will we revisit it ?
<ogra> (moblin)
<ogra> davidm, ^^ ?
<NCommander> Well, in either case, we still need to figure out how we're going to handle Moblin for Lucid
<ogra> *if* we handle it we have to, yes
<davidm> We will need to revisit, likely with a 2D launcher
<JamieBennett1> not sure what happened there
<ogra> davidm, moblin with a 2D launcher ?
<davidm> UNR with 2D launcer sorry
<davidm> UMR is up in the air
<ogra> ok
<ogra> lool, you said you had a list with spec suggestions too
<GrueMaster> There is a high possibility that we will be seeing PSB drivers again in that time frame.
<lool> Please let us use "moblin remix" not UMR
<NCommander> GrueMaster, ?
 * StevenK sobs
<persia> Last cycle, there was https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/KarmicSpecifications : why not do the same forhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/LucidSpecifications ?
<GrueMaster> Inside info.
 * lool uploads http://paste.ubuntu.com/297486/
<persia> And review the suggestions everyone adds there one-by-one next week.
<ogra> persia, btw, any suggestions
<ogra> (assuming you return in lucid)
<dyfet> I had put up one spec for broader discussion, but it is VoIP related, and not mobile centric
<StevenK> dyfet: No LXDE stuff?
<persia> ogra, Assuming I have time, I'd like to improve desktop/handheld interaction stuff.
<dyfet> I am going to have a LXDE one done in large part from the community
<ogra> http://paste.ubuntu.com/297492/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://paste.ubuntu.com/297492/
<ogra> thats what i stripped out of the discussion
<ogra> so everyone please add specs to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/LucidSpecifications until next meeting
<ogra> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/LucidSpecifications
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/LucidSpecifications
<ogra> anything else for specs ?
<StevenK> ogra: By name?
<StevenK> ogra: Or just list them?
<GrueMaster> Someone needs to make the LucidSpecifications wiki to start with.
<ogra> i think we should just list them for now
<lool> StevenK: progress on ISO size bits for UNR?
<ogra> GrueMaster, the first one who gets there i'd say :P
<NCommander> I have an update with dove
<StevenK> lool: UNR is 680, I don't think I can shrink it
<ogra> lool, covered at the beginning
<StevenK> lool: I was going to add de/fr
<ogra> ok, lets move on
<plars> bringup test procedures for new hardware, and documentation of what works/doesn't, workarounds, etc
<ogra> [topic] UNR Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  UNR Status
<NCommander> partman-uboot was merged and intergrated (thank you cjwatson). I smoke tested it, but I haven't tested one of today's dailies
<ogra> so StevenK anything intresting beyond size reduction ?
<StevenK> Testing!
<StevenK> Lots of testing!
<ogra> indeed !!!
<NCommander> Look, I got ot run, my gate may have changed.
<StevenK> RC is this week!
<NCommander> or not
<ogra> all for UNR ?
<ogra> ok
<lool> netbook-launcher upload
<ogra> [topic] moblin remix Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  moblin remix Status
<lool> and notify-osd upload
<lool> but it's basically ok
<StevenK> I'd like to upload casper
<ogra> paulliu, so how does moblin look ?
<StevenK> But I need to build an initrd that isn't broken
<paulliu> ogra: Just left some minor bugs.
<ogra> runs and installs ?
<plars> haven't looked at the new image this morning yet, but according to lool the apt popup error should be fixed now
<paulliu> And those bugs are upstream bugs.
<GrueMaster> Moblin Compliance testing failures down to 165, mostly programmatic errors at this point.
<lool> We just have a new image published
<paulliu> ogra: yes.
<ogra> cool !!!
<ogra> so pretty much on track it seems
<StevenK> GrueMaster: Our errors?
 * ogra doesnt have errors
<paulliu> Moblin 2.1 preview is updated by Intel again. However we've freezed so not going to update the versions.
<paulliu> It changes a lot.
<GrueMaster> Don't know.  I am seeing the same errors on the LSB testing.  I think a lot of them are actually in the tests.
<plars> GrueMaster: where are this posted? the last results I see say 173
<NCommander> GrueMaster, check the LSB sight to see what tests have errata and/or waviers
<NCommander> *site
<paulliu> ABI/API bump in foundation libraries.
<GrueMaster> I will upload the new results this morning.
<plars> GrueMaster: also, I don't recall, was there a comparison run with upstream moblin?
<paulliu> So we are going to establish another PPA. OEM team have to update all the packages before this week.
<GrueMaster> This is from Friday test run.
<plars> GrueMaster: cool, thanks
<lool> paulliu: god  :-(
<ogra> oh my
<StevenK> paulliu: Argh!
<StevenK> paulliu: Why?
<NCommander> paulliu, OW
<NCommander> paulliu, I do hope that the soversions and friends have been properly bumped
<paulliu> Don't worry. Personally I'll update Debian packages with OEM team so in Lucid we'll have newer versions.
<GrueMaster> I haven't had a chance to run a comparison with upstream, mainly because they are missing a lot of necessary bits from their repository.
<lool> It seems we didn't cover the UNR nor the moblin bugs
<plars> GrueMaster: that's a decent improvement from the previous, was that due to config changes, additional packages you installed, fixes made in the packages? what?
<lool> [link] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+bugs?field.subscriber=ubuntu-unr
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+bugs?field.subscriber=ubuntu-unr
<lool> njpatel: dbarth wanted to tentatively poke this UNR bug
<paulliu> NCommander: yes. soname is bumped. So package name bumped too..
<NCommander> paulliu, that's good; it could be worse.
<GrueMaster> Adding sym links to some newer libraries actually.
<lool> njpatel: There are a unch of fix committed or in progress bugs on https://bugs.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-unr which seem like they probably should be fix released
<StevenK> GrueMaster: That isn't a solution
<GrueMaster> Some libraries are backwards compatible with older versions.
<ogra> *some*
<ogra> ...
<GrueMaster> Some aren't, which caused more failures.  I ran a libcheck test on this before launching the main test run.
<paulliu> GrueMaster: Ah. I'm sure it doesn't backward compatible. If updates that library, things are FTBFS.
<paulliu> GrueMaster: So we have to update those stuff together.
<lool> [link] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.subscriber=ubuntu-moblin
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.subscriber=ubuntu-moblin
<njpatel> lool: I'll catch up with dbarth on the keyring bug
<lool> paulliu: I'm a bit worried with the cheer number of sync bugs there
<lool> paulliu: Shall we close them to prevent them from happening?
<njpatel> lool: I need to make a clutk release that will fix the allocation crashes, will do that before end of today
<njpatel> lool: sorry, that will fix-release the crashers
<lool> njpatel: Ok thanks
<paulliu> lool: Yes. We should close them now. I found it tries to sync the newer version in Debian which I just upload for OEM team.. :(
<lool> paulliu: Could you close them?
<paulliu> lool: Yes. I'll do that after the meeting.
<ogra> [action] paulliu to close remaining moblin sync bugs for karmic
<MootBot> ACTION received:  paulliu to close remaining moblin sync bugs for karmic
<plars> njpatel: excellent, that should fix all of them? shall I dup them all to one so that you can just tag it with that lp#, or are they actually separate problems?
<lool> StevenK: I assigned you to 439656 and marked it as triaged
<lool> StevenK: mark it in progress if you're working on it
<ogra> are we done with moblin/UNR status ? ....
<ogra> [topic] armel status
<MootBot> New Topic:  armel status
<lool> [link] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-moblin-remix/+bugs
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-moblin-remix/+bugs
<njpatel> plars: I believe it'll fix the _allocate crashers and the screwup with the rows of icons (overlapping and bogus spaces)
<lool> plars, GrueMaster: Would probably help if more bugs had an importance on the above list, but I read through them as they came in and don't recall a lot of scary things
<njpatel> plars: I was using this https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/clutk/+bug/445995 for _allocate issues
<plars> lool: those are moblin, not armel
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 445995 in clutk "netbook-launcher crashed with SIGFPE in clutter_actor_allocate()" [Critical,Fix committed]
<lool> plars: I know, I had the URL ready when ogra moved to armel
<lool> I can't help it if he moves faster than I type  :-)
<ogra> well, thats why i asked if you are done :P
<plars> ah, ok :) and yes, agreed, will try to pick through them a bit, but moblin has been further down on my list lately
<lool> ogra: in the same minute, you asked, moved on, and I posted the URL; I dont care
<lool> please continue
<GrueMaster> lool: We will triage these as fast as we can, but we can only juggle so much.
<lool> ogra: It would help if as part of discussing each topic you posted bugs URLs though
<ogra> ok, armel status ... NCommander ? how does dove look like ?
<NCommander> ogra, partman-uboot was merged in by cjwatson last night
<ogra> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+bugs?field.subscriber=ubuntu-armel
<lool> [link] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+bugs?field.subscriber=ubuntu-armel
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+bugs?field.subscriber=ubuntu-armel
<ogra> pfft
<NCommander> ubiquity and partman-auto was also changed
<NCommander> Both imx51 and dove images should be heavily tested. I don't except any unusual breakage, but its a fairly large change (especially this late)
<lool> NCommander: do you cover bootrom and uboot updates in the install doc?
<ogra> NCommander, great, did you test it very very hard before it was committed ?
<NCommander> ogra, several test installs, but I'm just one person
<ogra> indeed
<NCommander> lool, I updated it to the previous drop we got from Marvell. I have to poke it for 4.3.1
<NCommander> (which I haven't seen a stable drop of yet)
<ogra> imx51 netinst has issues with dhclient and the FEC driver
<ogra> imx51 alternate has bug 360925
<NCommander> lool, dyfet ran through the instructions end to end, made sure they work. I also standardized Y0 and Y1 boot methods
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 360925 in mobile-meta "md5sum check of UNR image fails in one file" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/360925
<ogra> (i suspect dove has the same issue)
<lool> NCommander: did you report to marvell on testing of their uboot?
<NCommander> lool, yes I did
<dyfet> I tested Y0 of course, but yes, it worked
<lool> ogra: what's the bug for the dhclient issue?
<ogra> no bug yet, i'll file it later today
<lool> About time
<ogra> [action] ogra to file a bug for dhclient not working properly with the FEC driver in d-i
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ogra to file a bug for dhclient not working properly with the FEC driver in d-i
<NCommander> As a heads up this week, I don't have my boards setup, I brought them withme in case the shit hits the fan, but unless needed, I do not plan to have them up and running so I'm not going to be available for ARM image testing
<NCommander> Anyway
<NCommander> time for me to board
<lool> NCommander: Good thanks
<NCommander> lool, I'll be back online in 1h-1:30 based on flight time.
<NCommander> anyway
<ogra> and as a reminder i'm on the roda from tomorrow on, imx51 testing needs to be done by others until monday
<ogra> but i dont expect any regressions here, desktop works definately fine
<JamieBennett1> ogra: I can do some testing
<ogra> netinst and alternate work with some tinkering
<plars> so can I
<ogra> cool, thanks
<GrueMaster> same here.  I have both Y0 & Y1.
<ogra> and babbage :)
<JamieBennett1> looks like we have it covered then :)
<GrueMaster> yea, that too.
<lool> can we close bug #450940?
<ogra> great
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 450940 in linux-mvl-dove "Regression in linux-mvl-dove 207 and later causes Y0 boards to hang seconds after booting" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/450940
<cjwatson> note I made some corrections to NCommander's ubiquity changes, so it does need further testing
<plars> GrueMaster: have you tried the recent images on Y0 to see if that's still a problem?
<cjwatson> with specific attention to the behaviour of the mountpoint drop-down when creating or editing uboot partitions in ubiquity's manual partitioner
<GrueMaster> The Y0 I have has the updated firmware and wasn't a problem to begin with.
<GrueMaster> I traded with Brad last week.
<lool> I'll go ahead and close 450940
<ogra> ++
<plars> cjwatson: thanks for the heads up, we should take a look at the partman stuff this week anyway since it just changed
<lool> GrueMaster, plars: You guys tested suspend resume on imx51 as well?
<GrueMaster> not yet.
<plars> lool: I haven't yet, but my suspicion is that it does not resume
<plars> had to borrow parts to work on dove, so my b2.5 is down, bringing it back to life today
<ogra> [action] GrueMaster and plars to test suspend/resume on babbage and report results
<MootBot> ACTION received:  GrueMaster and plars to test suspend/resume on babbage and report results
<lool> plars: IMO do order enough parts that you can test the two at the same time; check with davidm but I think it's going to be important for release that we can test quickly multiple platforms at the same time
<GrueMaster> I'll try to get to it.  My babbage has been focusing on the sata issue lately, but I can move the drive to a usb cable.
<NC|Mobile> back
<plars> lool: right, I had to make an unexpected  change
<ogra> soo, is that all for armel ...
<GrueMaster> lool: I agree.  I have 7 systems at my desk right now, all of which are accessible.
<ogra> lool, speak up !
<lool> GrueMaster: You can test suspend resume from cmdline if you like  :)
<GrueMaster> Better to test with gui.
<lool> Well I think nobody is chasing the toolchain issues except doko
<GrueMaster> More involved.
<davidm> plars, order parts to have both boards up and running
<ogra> suspend should work from livefs
<lool> Would be nice if someone could research the various toolchain issues on the list
<ogra> hibernate needs an install
<lool> dyfet: Which bugs are you working on ATM?
<ogra> dyfet, *?
<dyfet> I am going to close 453159 and 438450 today
<dyfet> and add and close a bug for pigdin-sipe
<lool> bug 453159
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 453159 in isdnutils "gcc 4.4 issue and casting of void * to va_list prevents armel build" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/453159
<lool> bug 438450
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 438450 in sqliteodbc "On arm, at least, builds with libsqlite0 instead of libsqlite3" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/438450
<lool> dyfet: Ok
<dyfet> and the sipe one needs to be added :)...I will report it when I post the patch
<GrueMaster> I am going to retest imx51 and see if bug #424400 can be closed.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 424400 in linux-fsl-imx51 "DM9601 or Pegasus based USB NICs dont find their MAC address under 2.6.31-100-imx51" [Low,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/424400
<lool> dyfet: these two are in universe though; perhaps you should focus on stuff in main first
<NC|Mobile> door been closed. gtg
<ogra> there was a new banshee upload this week
<lool> Quick announce: I pushed armel cross compilers to my PPA
<dyfet> lool: true, but they looked like they would be quick to resolve and were arm specific
<ogra> dyfet, could you test the recent banshee ? it might fix issues
<dyfet> ogra: yes...and I wonder if we still get divergent results :)
<lool> ogra: I had the same stacktrace just installing a -cil package so I doubt it will be enough to resolve the mono issues
<ogra> [action] dyfet to test recent banshee release and report to the banshee bug
<MootBot> ACTION received:  dyfet to test recent banshee release and report to the banshee bug
<ogra> lool, i havent
<ogra> (as i reported on the bug)
<ogra> anyway
<lool> I did
<ogra> are we done with armel ?
<ogra> anything to add ?
 * lool is done
<ogra> [topic] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<StevenK> Yes, it's 1am, and I'd like to sleep. :-P
<GrueMaster> Any news on the imx51 sata issue?
<ogra> nope
<ogra> call is tonight
<GrueMaster> (sorry, ogra types fast).
<JamieBennett1> StevenK, orgra: AR's!
<ogra> whoops
<ogra> will do after the meeting
<lool> GrueMaster: We confirmed that it is a kernel bug and that the gnome-session test case is enough to reproduce for kernel folks
<GrueMaster> crack that whip.
<StevenK> JamieBennett1: Will send before sleepy-time
<ogra> GrueMaster, we will
<lool> GrueMaster: So the ball is in the kernel camp; hopefully FSL can help figure out a fix here
<GrueMaster> cool
<ogra> 2 mins left ... any other AOB stuff ?
<ogra> going once ...
<ogra> going twice ...
<ogra> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:59.
<ogra> thanks all
<GrueMaster> sold to the lady with the pink tutu.
<ogra> :)
<plars> with 1 min to spare, woot!
<GrueMaster> oh, sorry.  Must be the coffee.
<Keybuk> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:01. The chair is Keybuk.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<Keybuk> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<Keybuk> mdz, cjwatson, kees: ping?
<mdz> Keybuk: pong
<kees> \o
<Keybuk> ok, that's three
<Keybuk> we have a pretty short agenda today I think
<Keybuk> [TOPIC] Developer Membership Board
<MootBot> New Topic:  Developer Membership Board
<kees> Keybuk: review actions from last meeting first?
<Keybuk> kees: I can't find them, doesn't look like pitti sent them out?
<kees> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoard/TeamReports/Current
<kees> # Keybuk to finalize unit policy and email to TB for vote
<kees> # cjwatson to drive vote on Archive Reorg rights for ubuntu-desktop and mythbuntu in email
<kees> # pitti to announce DMB meeting next Tuesday 1400
<Keybuk> ah, thanks
<Keybuk> (pitti should mail them too)
<Keybuk> units policy is already on the agenda
<Keybuk> cjwatson is not here (but has done both of those action points)
<Keybuk> DMB meeting took place, so pitti's agenda item is cleared
<Keybuk> :p
 * kees nods
<Keybuk> [TOPIC] Developer Membership Board
<MootBot> New Topic:  Developer Membership Board
<Keybuk> We had the first meeting, and subsequent meetings will take place as needed
<Keybuk> ML is set up, and I saw the ML request go to RT for the private list
<bdrung> FYI i am here for units policy
<kees> hi bdrung, thanks
<Keybuk> and the MC now send their reviews to the DMB
<Keybuk> I think we can consider this complete, modulo documentation changes
<Keybuk> jono: you took the action for those, how's that going?
<pitti> o/ (sorry for being late)
<jono> Keybuk, sorry, which actions?
<kees> pitti: np, just reviewed actions, and now covering last item of DMB
<Keybuk> jono: updating governance documentation to reflect that the DMB is now handling developer applications, not the TB
<mdz> jono: documentation changes
<mdz> Keybuk: FYI I've added an item to the agenda just now
<Keybuk> jono: you took it as an action in the 2009-09-08 TB meeting
<jono> Keybuk, oh, right, I was waiting on Keybuk to finish off a previous action to do this, I will look into it
<jono> sorry about that
<Keybuk> np, will carry over
<jono> thanks
<Keybuk> I'll remove the standing agenda item now in favour of tracking actions
<Keybuk> [ACTION] jono to review and update governance documentation to reflect that the DMB is now handling developer applications, not the TB
<MootBot> ACTION received:  jono to review and update governance documentation to reflect that the DMB is now handling developer applications, not the TB
<Keybuk> [TOPIC] Units Policy
<MootBot> New Topic:  Units Policy
<Keybuk> I took an action for this at the last meeting, but noted I'd likely not have time
<Keybuk> I was right, I didn't have time
<jono> thanks Keybuk
<Keybuk> since the release is next week, this seems ok to defer
<kees> does anything remain other than a vote for the unit policy?
<bdrung> maybe improve the wording
<bdrung> are the any objection that should be discussed?
<Keybuk> the exception also seemed ... odd
<cjwatson> erk, sorry I'm late
<Keybuk> e.g. "only the prefix is displayed and not the unit (e.g. M instead of MB)"
<Keybuk> it seems much less difficult to simply state that traditional UNIX command-line tools are exempt, provided they provide options to select the output sizes
<kees> (for the logs)  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UnitsPolicy
<Keybuk> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UnitsPolicy
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UnitsPolicy
<Keybuk> I don't want to spend too much time on this today as we're all busy with release-related stuff
<bdrung> Keybuk: yes, your idea is simpler. how about providing an exception list?
<Keybuk> so let's continue this by e-mail
<Keybuk> bdrung: right, that's what I was thinking
<Keybuk> [ACTION] keybuk to drive units policy to completion and vote by e-mail
<MootBot> ACTION received:  keybuk to drive units policy to completion and vote by e-mail
<Keybuk> [TOPIC] EC2 image updates
<MootBot> New Topic:  EC2 image updates
<Keybuk> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-September/028954.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-September/028954.html
<Keybuk> mdz: ?
<smoser> this is my topic, but I am not exactly sure what is expected of me.
<mdz> smoser sent an RFC to ubuntu-devel
<smoser> the link above describes the proposal regarding support / updates to ec2 images.
<mdz> the basic issue is that Ubuntu for EC2 is distributed as a pre-installed image
<mdz> and the EC2 model is such that updates are not applied in the usual manner
<mdz> (if they are, it needs to be done on every boot)
<mdz> so he has proposed that we should periodically refresh the images to incorporate updates
<kees> sounds reasonable.
<Keybuk> ah, I wondered what he was proposing
<mdz> he hasn't received any feedback on the proposal yet
<cjwatson> that's the case for live CDs too, but I can see how UEC images are different since the usage model is different
<Keybuk> he used lots of terms and abbreviations that only cloud people know ;)
<smoser> (above, it is not on "every boot", but on every first boot of a new instance)
<Keybuk> so it's entirely possible nobody outside of the UEC team knew what he was on about <g>
<mdz> Keybuk: he did explain pretty clearly in the email, but it was long
<Keybuk> mdz: I disagree
<Keybuk> I read the entire e-mail
<Keybuk> an I've just re-read it
<Keybuk> and your one line explanation was far clearer
<Keybuk> (remember, you know about cloud - I don't)
<mdz> on EC2, the root filesystem and kernel are published separately, so it is possible to update the kernel while leaving the root filesystem alone, and vice versa
<mdz> so he has proposed separate policies for when to update each
<cjwatson> my main concern is release management; we know that point releases are a big whack of work, so this needs to be much more lightweight
<kees> I would think a place like www.ubuntu.com/ec2-version-query/... would make a better official place to get AMI updates than on ~soren
<mdz> when the kernel is updated, the rootfs would always be updated as well (since it contains the modules)
<Keybuk> is the rootfs like a ramfs?
<mdz> kees: smoser is in the process of replacing the (prototype) ~soren thing with something more official
<Keybuk> or is the ramdisk something different?
<mdz> Keybuk: it's typically a compressed writable filesystem
<mdz> the ramdisk is the initrd
<smoser> Keybuk, rootfs is a partition image (consumed by xen)
<mdz> so there is kernel (AKI) and ramdisk (ARI)
<Keybuk> what about the cases where you update the ramdisk and accidentally include updates to things like udev that aren't on the rootfs yet?
<mdz> an AMI is a rootfs + a reference to an AKI and ARI used to boot it
<mdz> smoser: have I got that right?
<smoser> mdz, yes.
<Keybuk> if you update the kernel, you need to update the initrd and root filesystem since they have modules on them
<mdz> when an EC2 user wants to start a new Ubuntu system up, they just specify the AMI they want
<Keybuk> if you update the root filesystem, you need to update the initrd too because it contains bits of it
<kees> Keybuk: AIUI, you run the risk of hosing your image.
<mdz> the AMI is a short, inscrutable hex number
<Keybuk> if you update the initrd, you run the disk of including updates that aren't on the root filesystem yet
<Keybuk> separate policies for them seems like a very bad idea
<smoser> Keybuk, i will admit to not having thought of that.  However, the proposal is that a kernel update indicates a new root. so it should not be an issue.
<sabdfl> are there items in the ramdisk which could trigger an update too? as i read it, it's only kernel updates that do so
<kees> I think the point is that it's not just the kernel changing that should trigger an ARI/AMI update.
<Keybuk> smoser: so when would you not just update all three bits at the same time?
<Keybuk> as I see it, kernel implies initrd and rootfs update
<smoser> any time the rootfs is updated it will take the most recent kernel/ramdisk at the time.
<Keybuk> initrd means you must also update the rootfs otherwise you'll screw yourself one day
<Keybuk> rootfs means you must also update the initrd
<Keybuk> smoser: you can't do that
<smoser> any time kernel/ramdisk is updated (in builds) it forces a refresh of root
<Keybuk> if you update the rootfs, you must update the ramdisk too
<mdz> a rootfs update does not generally require a kernel update, and may not require an initrd update
<Keybuk> mdz: disagree strongly
<mdz> Keybuk: generally, yes, but not always
<mdz> Keybuk: an update to screen or w3m does not require a new initrd
<cjwatson> can we determine this ad-hoc, based on (e.g.) the set of updates since the last image?
<mdz> Keybuk: I don't necessarily disagree with you that we should update them in sync, as that would be simpler
<Keybuk> mdz: and the cost of determining that for each release?
<Keybuk> that starts to put a larger release management overhead for these
<cjwatson> we can tell automatically whether a package calls update-initramfs in its postinst, plus perhaps a small number of exceptions
<cjwatson> (e.g. busybox-initramfs, don't ask)
<Keybuk> my between-the-lines reading was that you wanted light release management of "update the images this week"
<Keybuk> is there a Bad Thing of just updating the three bits together
<Keybuk> at least then you vastly reduce your testing matrix
<mdz> we want a clear (preferably automatable) test to say "yes it is time to roll an update"
<Keybuk> otherwise you really should be testing all combinations of kernel, initrd and rootfs
<smoser> I apologize for being dense here, but I believe the proposal is to update the 3 bits together.
<smoser> Keybuk, where do you see something that doesn't state that?
<Keybuk> smoser: honestly, I can't understand half of your proposal
<Keybuk> I don't know what an aki, ami, ari or uzi are ;)
<smoser> Keybuk, fair enough.
<mdz> Keybuk: I just explained
<Keybuk> can we not just simply it to "UEC Image" ?
<Keybuk> rather than resorting to jargon?
<sabdfl> the proposal is mostly useful to people who do understand ubuntu and ec2. now that mdz's explained, scott, you could read it again and see if you're happy with it in the light of your newfound insight ;-)
<mdz> Keybuk: sure
<cjwatson> "At the time of publish, AMIs will be associated with the latest AKI/ARI
<cjwatson> that is available."
<cjwatson> I think Scott is requesting that we just bundle up a new AKI/ARI at the same time, too
<Keybuk> sabdfl: I am doing so, and I think the proposal is still vastly overworded now I think I get it
<cjwatson> or at least a new ARI (initrd), it's probably fairly easy to see when the AKI (kernel) doesn't need to change
<Keybuk> cjwatson: right, I think that's what I mean
<kees> IIUC, proposal is: if anything changes in kernel or ramdisk, AKI/ARI/AMI is generated.  otherwise, just AMI.
<mdz> kees: that's my understanding as well
<sabdfl> can we always detect that something needs to change in the rd?
<kees> which means as long as there is a way to discover "current AMI", a user will always have the latest of everything published.
<sabdfl> kees: no, i don't think the proposal is to roll a new set every time there is any update at all
<mdz> kees: which is covered by the "Currency" section
<sabdfl> just kernel updates, major security updates, and when the queue of updates is big
<cjwatson> sabdfl: initrd change> yes (I think), but it may be more work than is worth it
<smoser> if there is a reason to always update kernel/ramdisk with each new AMI, then I do not have a good reason why that should not occur.
<Keybuk> smoser: I don't think you need to update the kernel bit (AKI?)
<kees> sabdfl: right, I should restate it as: when something important changes in kernel or ramdisk, AKI/ARI/AMI is generated.  otherwise, just AMI.
<Keybuk> if there's no new kernel, that's a static image
<cjwatson> the initrd is tiny and quick to build by comparison with the rest
<Keybuk> if you can auto-detect whether a new ARI is needed for a given AMI, then ok, otherwise I'd recommend always rolling a new ARI with a new AMI
<Keybuk> (did I get that right? :p)
<smoser> Keybuk, ah. ok. now i'm undertanding the problem.
<cjwatson> Keybuk: my counter-proposal would be: when something important changes in kernel or ramdisk, AKI/ARI/AMI is generated.  otherwise, ARI and AMI
<cjwatson> kees: ^-
<Keybuk> cjwatson: isn't that what I just said? :p
<cjwatson> Keybuk: sorry, I meant to direct that to kees
<kees> cjwatson, Keybuk: yeah, good.
<cjwatson> this is basically just defensive programming, since it's not trivial (not *that* hard, but) to tell when the initrd needs to change, and it's not that expensive to just change it anyway
<Keybuk> cjwatson: agree
<mdz> smoser: is there any cost related to releasing a new ARI which we might not be aware of?
<smoser> not that i can think of.
<Keybuk> . o O { why do UEC images have ramdisks anyway, surely the kernel can just mount the rootfs? }
<smoser> only that I had previously assumed kernel:ramdisk was 1:1, not 1:N
<mdz> ok, in that case I think I more or less agree with cjwatson, except s/ or ramdisk/
<mdz> i.e.: if the kernel changes, roll a new AKI/ARI/AMI, otherwise, roll new ARI/AMI with the old AKI
<Keybuk> mdz: right, good catch
<Keybuk> ARI changes means ARI/AMI not AKI/ARI/AMI
<kees> Keybuk: I thought you had concerns about ramdisky things like udev?
<cjwatson> mdz: yes
<mdz> Keybuk: good question
<mdz> smoser: is it possible to omit the ramdisk, technically?
<Keybuk> kees: ramdisky things like udev would be fine in that situation - my concern is the udev version in the ramdisk and rootfs being out of sync with each other
<smoser> from a 'allowed by amazon' perspective, yes
<Keybuk> kees: since they transfer data by a secret protocol known to no man that changes with the winds ;)
<smoser> i'm not sure as to whether or not our kernels have all the needed drivers built in. but obviously they could.
<mdz> obviously that's not an option for 9.10
<smoser> right.
<mdz> or older releases
<mdz> so we need to address the ramdisk question anyway
<kees> Keybuk: ok
<mdz> and can look at whether it can be eliminated in lucid
<Keybuk> so, new AKI -> new AKI/ARI/AMI
<Keybuk> new ARI or AMI -> new ARI/AMI
<Keybuk> ?
<mdz> smoser: do we presently provide any mechanism by which updates can be automatically installed at boot time?
<smoser> via user-data.
<mdz> or is that something that users have to roll their own?
<smoser> ie, if user boots with '--user-data "#!/bin/sh\napt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade"'
<mdz> smoser: ok, so they can pass in a script which does it, but we don't provide a simple toggle or anything
<smoser> that will get done.
<smoser> mdz, correct, we do not.
<smoser> there is not at the moment a general "config" like format to feed to an instance, only scripts.
<mdz> smoser: ok, so for 9.10 purposes, users are on their own with regard to keeping up to date
<smoser> correct.
<mdz> in that case, does it make sense to measure the size of updates or time to install?
<mdz> should we rather just update it every N days or whenever there's a critical issue?
<mdz> (for 9.10)
<mdz> kees: have you considered how this would tie into the security team's process?  presumably the USN should mention the new AMI where appropriate
<smoser> I do not have the experience with SRU that others here have. but it seems that updating every N days when there are zero (or very few) updates is overkill.
<kees> mdz: we have been pushing for ec2 to have a way for people to "get the latest".  I don't want to delay kernel publications on an update of AKI.
<mdz> smoser: my point was, if that criterion is based on the assumption that everyone will install updates at boot, is that a valid assumption given that it relies on the user to implement it manually?
<mdz> kees: what if the security team could push a new AKI?
<smoser> that is a valid question.  I have had the feeling from others that it is fairly common to do update on first (or every) boot
<mdz> smoser: which is an EC2 question rather than SRU
<mdz> smoser: ok
<kees> mdz: I would rather got gain that responsibility as it sets a bad precedence.  we are basically "upstream" for all derivatives.
<mdz> smoser: we certainly shouldn't do an update if there are no updates to packages in the image
<smoser> realize that the image as it is is basically useless, so each instance that is created will have *something* done to it to make it useful to the user
<sabdfl> could we move all the kernel bits from the rootfs into the rd?
<smoser> likely they realize that one of the things they should do is update
<mdz> smoser: right, and we are assuming that a standard part of everyone's user-data script (who cares about security) is to install updates
<smoser> correct
<mdz> which seems reasonable at this stage, though in the future I think we should explore simplifying that
<mdz> e.g. have unattended-upgrades automatically run at boot on EC2?
<mdz> something to think about for the future
<smoser> yes. i think that it is reasonable to have that as a default that can be easily turned off
 * kees agrees strongly
<mdz> smoser: it sounds like there is general agreement that 1) it is appropriate to issue new images periodically, 2) when to update AKI vs. ARI vs. AMI
<mdz> does anyone have concerns with smoser's proposal to refresh based on time-to-install-updates or an approximation thereof?
<sabdfl> fine by me
<Keybuk> seems ok
<mdz> how about the support lifetime section, which basically says we will continue to provide updated images for the maintenance lifetime of the product?
<kees> it was time-to-install or security update criticality  (AMI Updates / Stable Releases / a & b)
<mdz> for 8.04 LTS and 9.10+
<Keybuk> that seems logical
<sabdfl> +1
<mdz> kees: yes, thanks for the correction
 * kees now
<kees> er
<Keybuk> we support an Ubuntu install with some updates installed for the same time period
 * kees nods
<Keybuk> philosophically speaking, these images are just an alternate way of providing the same updates
<mdz> so I think that leaves only 1) how users will find out about, and start using, the new AMIs (Currency)
<mdz> are there any other outstanding questions or concerns?
<mdz> I agree with Keybuk that it would help if the document were condensed
<mdz> now that we have consensus, it should probably be made more procedural, i.e. step-by-step decision-making and release process, rather than explanation/RFC
<smoser> I will update the wiki document.
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> anything else on this topic?
<mdz> if there are no other questions, I suggest that the next steps should be: 1. smoser to redraft, and 2. continue working on a system to allow users to find the right AMI
<kees> sounds right
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> [TOPIC] Community Bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Community Bugs
<Keybuk> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bugs?field.assignee=techboard
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bugs?field.assignee=techboard
<Keybuk> none
<mdz> smoser: thanks
<Keybuk> [TOPIC] # Select a chair for the next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  # Select a chair for the next meeting
<Keybuk> by my reckoning, it's mdz's turn next ;)
<Keybuk> though it's posibble that there's a lot of leave being taken that week
<kees> cjwatson: anything to cover for "Archive reorganisation" ?
<mdz> I will be traveling and may or may not be able to attend the meeting
<cjwatson> kees: not right now
<kees> cjwatson: ok, thanks
<pitti> vote is still going on
<mdz> I will try to make it, but I don't think I can commit to chair
<cjwatson> I will be travelling week after next as well
<Keybuk> I am away that week
<kees> I can chair it, but it sounds like we'll lack quorum?
<mdz> pitti, kees, sabdfl?
<sabdfl> vote?
<pitti> I should be available
<sabdfl> ah, attendance
<sabdfl> i'll be there
<mdz> sabdfl: chair
<sabdfl> mdz: i thought scott said it was your turn
<Keybuk> sabdfl: mdz is away that week
<kees> 4 is quorum?
<Keybuk> or possibly won't be able to make it
<Keybuk> sabdfl: and technically speaking, it's your turn since you've never chaired :p
<sabdfl> i'm just a lowly ex officio member here, iirc
<sabdfl> ok, i'll chair it
 * bdale chuckles
<mdz> Keybuk: AOB?
<Keybuk> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<Keybuk> none, good
<Keybuk> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:01.
<sabdfl> thanks all
<Keybuk> thanks everyone
<pitti> thanks all
 * mathiaz waves
<ttx> o/
<Daviey> \o
<soren> o/
<zul> heylo
<ttx> kirkland, smoser: around ?
<smoser> here
<sommer> o//
<ttx> waiting for mdz...
<mdz> ttx: here
<mdz> #startmeeting
<kirkland> o/
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:05. The chair is mdz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mdz> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<mdz> [topic] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<mdz> ACTION: kirkland to adapt help.ubuntu.com VM recipe(s?) to use libvirt
<kirkland> mdz: not yet
<mdz> [action]  kirkland to adapt help.ubuntu.com VM recipe(s?) to use libvirt
<kirkland> mdz: i plan on doing some documentation this week
<MootBot> ACTION received:   kirkland to adapt help.ubuntu.com VM recipe(s?) to use libvirt
<mdz> ACTION: zul to fix m2crypto test suite and ensure that MIR is processed
<mdz> zul: ?
<zul> testsuite deferred to lucid but its in main now
<mdz> zul: is there a bug open to make sure we revisit the test suite for lucid?
<zul> mdz: yes
<mdz> zul:  let me know what the bug number is when you can pull it up
<mdz> ACTION: mathiaz to add test case for image store in testcases wiki
<mathiaz> mdz: not done yet.
<mdz> [action] mathiaz to add test case for image store in testcases wiki
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to add test case for image store in testcases wiki
<mdz> [topic] Karmic RC (ttx)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Karmic RC (ttx)
<ttx> ACTION: zul to add missing server-ship packages to ubuntu-server
<ttx> you missed that one ^
<zul> mdz: oh kees fixed it #451998
<zul> ttx/mdz: thats done as well
<mdz> ttx: oh, thanks
<ttx> I wanted us to revisit the list of bugs targeted to release and current targets of opportunity (karmic-nominated bugs)
<mdz> ttx: urls?
<ttx> I pulled up a list at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
<ttx> since some of them are of interest to us but not assigned to a team member
<mdz> bug 452665 is fixed, I believe
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 452665 in eucalyptus "eucalyptus-cloud runs without any option set" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/452665
<mdz> oh, they are listed as fixed ,NM
<ttx> so jdstrand added a release-targeted bug, bug 455832
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 455832 in libvirt "segfault when attaching disk with same physical device" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/455832
<mdz> I had not seen 455832 before
<ttx> its quite recent
<mdz> ah, just filed 17  hours ago
<ttx> also not assigned to anyone -- I was considering removing the milestone and keeping int as a target of opportunity
<ttx> unless someone says its a release blocker
<mdz> kirkland: is this related to bug 432154 or bug 419590?
<kirkland> ttx: i can attempt to reproduce that, and look at it, if it's release critical
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 432154 in qemu "dynamic block device attach/detach not functional with karmic KVM" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/432154
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 419590 in qemu "kvm core dump on hotplug (pci_add)" [Wishlist,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/419590
<mdz> it is not marked as a regression
<kirkland> mdz: possibly; the consensus from upstream was that dynamic block storage attach/detach are not heavily used or tested
<jdstrand> the attach/detach work
<kirkland> mdz: given eucalyptus' dependency on that, it might be worth us investing some time/effort testing and developing this upstream
<mdz> jdstrand: is it a regression?
<jdstrand> that is what I was testing, and I accidentally attached a device two times in a row with the same target dev
<jdstrand> and it segfaulted
<jdstrand> I did not test on jaunty, but I can
<smoser> it is not a regression from jaunty
<mdz> ok, in that case I would not  consider it critical for karmic
<ttx> if its avoidable in normal use, I would not keep it as a RC bug
<smoser> it was at best random success there.
<mdz> it likely doesn't affect eucalyptus
<mdz> and it doesn't sound like a "normal" use case
<jdstrand> I can say that anyone in the libvirtd group, or with qemu+ssh//<host>/system access can DoS libvirtd with this
<ttx> mdz: should we still keep it as a karmic-nominated bug ?
<mdz> ttx: smoser and I discussed bug 451881. since it only affects UEC, and not EC2, it is not critical for karmic (though he will continue to investigate)
<ttx> i.e. moving it to the next list ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 451881 in ec2-init "ssh public key fingerprint not available on console in UEC environement" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/451881
<jdstrand> if a user or application misbehaves libvirtd goes down
<mdz> ttx: no, I suggest we wontfix it for karmic
<ttx> the "Other targeted bugs" should onnly contain bugs that we may want to fix before release
<ttx> mdz ok
<mdz> soren: how serious is bug 410886?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 410886 in vm-builder "VMBuilder doesn't work with grub2" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/410886
<mdz> it's marked High and assigned to cjwatson
<soren> mdz: Not at all anymore.
<ttx> 455832 and 451881 > wontfix for karmic
<mdz> in fact he closed it in a grub2 upload
<mdz> grub2 (1.97~beta3-1ubuntu8) karmic; urgency=low
<mdz>   [ Colin Watson ]
<mdz>   * debian/control: Conflict with grub (<< 0.97-54) as well as grub-legacy
<mdz>     (see LP #410886).
<mdz> soren: can it be closed, or is there still an issue here?
<cjwatson> no, that didn't close 410886
<mdz> cjwatson: ah, I see
<soren> mdz: There's still an issue, but it's not critical anymore.
<cjwatson> the vmbuilder package needs to have the patch from trunk merged into it, does it not?
<cjwatson> did that happen?
<soren> I thought it did. I can check up on it.
<cjwatson> the patch> to make it use grub from the chroot rather than the host
<soren> Right.
<cjwatson> I saw a comment in the last few days suggesting it hadn't been
<soren> Ah.
 * soren adds to TODO
<mdz> soren: TODO->post-karmic?
<mdz> i.e. we can untarget this bug?
<cjwatson> it should be pre-karmic
<mdz> ack
<soren> Pre-karmic.
<mdz> milestoned and assigned to soren
<cjwatson> assuming it's what I think it is, vm-builder only works if you have grub (1) installed in the host
<mdz> bug 362511: OpenSSH force-command unable to pass arguments along to internal-sftp (cjwatson)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 362511 in openssh "force-command unable to pass arguments along to internal-sftp" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/362511
<cjwatson> I'd entirely forgotten about that bug, TBH; I don't think it's likely to happen for karmic, unless somebody thinks it's urgent enough to steal it
<mdz> cjwatson: given this is marked Low, I'm assuming it's post-karmic now
<mdz> the next two eucalyptus bugs ttx and I already discussed
<ttx> ok, wontfixed for karmic
<mdz> next is bug 455411
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 455411 in qemu-kvm "Conffiles from kvm are left around on upgrade from Jaunty" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/455411
<mdz> kirkland: given that's Low, I'm assuming it's missed the cut now?
<kirkland> mdz: ttx filed it, thought it was low, i didn't get to it yesterday
<ttx> mdz: its low because its harmless to load the kvm module twice
<mdz> ttx: wontfix for karmic then
<ttx> ok
<mdz> (waiting for LP)
<ttx> mdz: i'll do it
<mdz> bug 453495 is next
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 453495 in virt-manager "virt-manager does not honor other architectures when using qemu" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/453495
<ttx> taht's another recent one filed by jdstrabd
<ttx> jdstrand, even
<kirkland> those other arches are in qemu-kvm-extras, in universe; very low priority, IMHO
<mdz> jdstrand: I don't understand the problem from your description
<mdz> oh, it's not selecting arm
<jdstrand> mdz: if you use kvm, you can specify the arch, i686 or x86_64
<mdz> right
<mdz> agreed, this doesn't sound High and we can deal with it post-Karmic
<jdstrand> mdz: when using qemu, you can specify the others in virt-manager, but the resulting VM is x86_64
<mdz> bug 453453 is another jdstrand libvirt bug
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 453453 in libvirt "libvirt sometimes hangs when using pulseaudio" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/453453
<jdstrand> (I put it high for virt-manager, but realize it is universe)
<mdz> jdstrand: right, I understand now, thanks
<ttx> mdz: 453495 wontfix for karmic
<mdz> jdstrand: given it doesn't affect primary functionality (only functionality used with a universe package), I think we should consider it lower importance
<jdstrand> sure. I am not suggesting it take priority over other items
<mdz> jdstrand: you marked this a regression; when did it last work?
<jdstrand> mdz: I am almost sure it worked in jaunty, but I didn't test it recently
<jdstrand> (we are still talking about 453495, right?)
<jdstrand> mdz: I can retest it
<jdstrand> (on jaunty(
<jdstrand> )
<mdz> jdstrand: (yes)
<mdz> but now we need to talk about 453453
<kirkland> sounds support has come and gone, come and gone in karmic
<mdz> this is Medium, which I agree with; not sure why it's targeted to Karmic though
<mdz> oh, because it's a regression
<mdz> jdstrand: er, yes, my last question was about 453453, not 453495
<kirkland> i have verified that sound works when running kvm from the command line
<kirkland> but not when through libvirt
<jdstrand> actually, I see it work in libvirt too
<mdz> kirkland: when run through libvirt, does sound just not work, or does it make the VM unusable?
<jdstrand> I think it is highly dependent on what is going on in the host as to whether or not it hangs the guest when initializing the sound device or if there is sound at all in the guest
<kirkland> mdz: i saw the hang jdstrand mentions for the first time on Friday
<kirkland> mdz: it's a race or something; non-deterministic failure
<jdstrand> I agree with kirkland's assessment
 * kirkland borrowed jdstrand's assessment, probably :-)
<mdz> kirkland: if it's come and gone, was there an earlier bug report about it?
<jdstrand> probably why it sounded *so right* ;)
<kirkland> mdz: no
<mdz> at this point it doesn't seem realistic to do anything about this bug for 9.10, though we could consider it for SRU
<mdz> kirkland: your call; please either milestone for karmic-updates or wontfix for karmic
<mdz> need to keep moving
<mdz> bug 453467
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 453467 in virt-manager "virt-manager traceback if select an architecture on VM creation" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/453467
<kirkland> mdz: sound issues in VM's are *extremely* low priority, for me
<mdz> this is Low
<mdz> this seems related to the other bug, selecting an architecture
<mdz> doesn't seem 9.10-critical to me
<mdz> bug 407949
<ttx> mdz: agreed, wontfixing for karmic as well
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 407949 in ec2-init "ec2-init: ec2-set-defaults needs better defaults for non US/EU regions" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/407949
<jdstrand> mdz: that may be true, but I think it is more a gui failure in virt-manager, though I haven't looked at it too closely
<mdz> smoser?
<smoser> i just pushed  a branch with a suggested fix.
<smoser> its very trivial, just catch the error and fall back.
<smoser> rather than not catching error and failing with python trace
<mdz> smoser: does it cause the UEC images to fail to initialize correctly?
<ttx> smoser: that would involve a UEC/EC2 image respin, but not an ISO respin, right
<mdz> ttx: correct
<smoser> it does cause UEC images to fail to initialize correctly.  They do not get locale set.
<smoser> i believe that they still have a functional /etc/apt/sources.list though.
<mdz> smoser: ok, milestoned for 9.10
 * Daviey noticed user-data not working as expected yesterday in ec2.
<ttx> I propose we skip the UEC/EC2 release process discussion and do it after meeting with smoser
<ttx> mdz: Test coverage ?
<mdz> ttx: yes, I emailed you with some notes about this
<soren> "Test coverage"?
<mdz> ISO testing
<soren> Ah.
<ttx> Some server-related tests in the ISO tracker are not covered by a team member
<mdz> the list of deliverables which need testing is at http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/ubuntuserver/all
<mdz> don't worry about ARM for the moment
<mdz> the main gaps are:
<mdz> 1. netboot
<mdz> 2. upgrades
<mdz> who has a setup where they can test netboot installations?
<mdz> this is fastest with a local mirror, but can be done over the Internet as well with a netboot setup
<Daviey> mdz: \o
<kirkland> mdz: o/
<mdz> Daviey: kirkland: thanks for stepping up
<ttx> I can do upgrade testing, though the test contents are undefined right now
<davmor2> mdz: I'm just finishing the netboot's
<mdz> upgrade testing is fairly straightforward and can be done in a VM
<mdz> ttx: yes, we need to get a test case written
<zul> ill do that one
<davmor2> mdz: at least for i386 and amd 64
<mdz> zul: can you write up a test case which is equivalent to the desktop one, but for a server install?
<zul> mdz: sure
<mdz> davmor2: great
<mdz> [action] zul to write up server upgrade test case
<MootBot> ACTION received:  zul to write up server upgrade test case
<mdz> ttx: ok to move on?
<ttx> yep
<mdz> [topic] Review progress made on the Roadmap:
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review progress made on the Roadmap:
<mdz> [topic] eucalyptus status
<MootBot> New Topic:  eucalyptus status
<ttx> I have a few eucalyptus bugs I wanted to bring up
<mdz> kirkland, ttx?
<kirkland> mdz: well, we've continued to improve
<ttx> current status is: we might still try to fix bug 455816 but its unlikely
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 455816 in eucalyptus "When installing a UEC cluster, the prompt for the private interface is displayed after the "Installation complete" dialog" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/455816
<ttx> and we would fix bug 453456 if log rotation isn't functional
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 453456 in eucalyptus "excessive logs in /var/log/eucalyptus" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/453456
<mdz> ttx: 453456->can be fixed in SRU
<ttx> we would fix bug 455293 only if something else gets fixed
<mathiaz> ttx: I plan to test cjwatson branch for bug 455816 today
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 455293 in eucalyptus "UEC management interface still has Eucalyptus as title" [Wishlist,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/455293
<kirkland> mdz: i think we fixed ~36 bugs in 9 uploads last week
<mdz> yes, there was a lot of great work done last week while I was away
<ttx> I'm slightly worried by bug 455625, if its confirmed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 455625 in eucalyptus "Eucalyptus Loses Public IP Address" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/455625
<ttx> and also note that I hit systematically bug 452556 and bug 444352 in my ISO testing
<ttx> which means we might need to release-note them
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 452556 in eucalyptus "euca-authorize default failing" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/452556
<ubottu> Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: The read operation timed out (https://launchpad.net/bugs/444352)
<ttx> especially if other testers hit those as well.
<nurmi> ttx: We're going to be looking into 455625 asap
<ttx> nurmi: it's a little... long to reproduce
<nurmi> ttx: 452556 is confirmed, we're working on a fix
<mdz> nurmi: thanks, that would be a great help
<jsalisbury> ttx: I am going to try reducing the lease time to try and reproduce quicker
<ttx> nurmi: also please comment on bug 453456 with a pointer on where the log rotation is implemented in code
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 453456 in eucalyptus "excessive logs in /var/log/eucalyptus" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/453456
<mdz> ttx: is 452556 9.10 critical?
<mathiaz> nurmi: IIUC guests don't know about their public IPs?
<ttx> mdz: no. It's quite easy to workaround
<nurmi> jaslisbury: the public addresses are not handed out by DHCP
<nurmi> mathiaz: that is correct
<mathiaz> nurmi: right - that's what I though
<mdz> [action] nurmi to investigate bug 455625
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 455625 in eucalyptus "Eucalyptus Loses Public IP Address" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/455625
<MootBot> ACTION received:  nurmi to investigate bug 455625
<ttx> mdz: but could be release note material if systematic
<ttx> that's all from me on Eucalyptus
<kirkland> nurmi: mdz: I think we're going to need to author some comprehensive documentation on the ip address handling in UEC
<mdz> ttx: agreed, please open an ubuntu-release-notes task on it
<kirkland> it's complex
<mdz> kirkland: ok, I see you have documentation on the agenda later
<mdz> ttx: can we move on from eucalyptus?
<ttx> yes
<mdz> [topic] UEC images (smoser)
<MootBot> New Topic:  UEC images (smoser)
<mdz> I looked at this with smoser yesterday, and we looked to be in good shape
<mdz> [link] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=uec-images
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=uec-images
<smoser> only issue open is the locale on UEC
<smoser> s/open/known and to-be-fixed/
<mdz> which we already discussed
<mdz> [topic] EC2 images (smoser)
<MootBot> New Topic:  EC2 images (smoser)
<mdz> [link] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=ec2-images
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=ec2-images
<mdz> also reviewed yesterday, also judged OK for 9.10
<mdz> smoser: any changes?
<smoser> no.
<mdz> lovely
<mdz> [topic] Reference UEC appliance (soren)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Reference UEC appliance (soren)
<mdz> soren: I tried to get some help on this while we were on holiday last week, but it got dropped, so there hasn't been progress since you left
<mdz> soren: what remains to be done on getting a demo appliance ready to ship?
<mdz> soren: hello?
<mdz> ttx: do you know soren's status on this?
<ttx> mdz: no. he is working on it though, has asked questions about EBS support
<kirkland> mdz: i asked him about it this morning; he said it's "on track" for release
<kirkland> mdz: he said there wasn't progress besides what he's posted on ubuntu-devel@
<mdz> ttx: the "demo" shouldn't require EBS; we should get the demo completed and then work on a persistent one
<soren> Sorry, my wifi dropped for a minute.
<soren> The demo will very closely resemble what I posted the week before last.
<soren> I'm getting the build of it cleaned up, but I'm having a weird problem with mysql.
<mdz> soren: can it be ready by Thursday?
<soren> I'm working on it.
<soren> The completely unpersistent one, yes.
<mdz> ok
<ttx> on the appliance store side, who tested that ?
<mdz> [action] soren to complete demo virtual appliance
<MootBot> ACTION received:  soren to complete demo virtual appliance
<mdz> [topic] UEC appliance store (niemeyer)
<MootBot> New Topic:  UEC appliance store (niemeyer)
<mdz> Gustavo is on leave I think
<kirkland> ttx: mathiaz tested the appliance store when he was here in Austin
<ttx> mathiaz: did you test it since it was fixed ?
<mdz> kirkland: mathiaz tested the eucalyptus interaction with the "fake" test store
<mdz> I'm not sure if it has been validated against the production store yet
<nurmi> ttx: I tested a bit shortly after austin, with the fake store as well
<kirkland> mdz: right, sorry
<mdz> someone needs to do that ASAP
<mathiaz> mdz: nope - not validated against the production server
<mathiaz> gustavo is on vacation today - so I don't know what's the state of the server side
<ttx> is that production server up already ?
<mdz> ttx: so I've heard
<mathiaz> and a appliance is actually needed to do the complete testing
<mdz> [action] mdz to chase down details on production image store
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mdz to chase down details on production image store
<mdz> [action] mathiaz to test UEC integration with production image store
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to test UEC integration with production image store
<soren> The standard UEC image should be the first appliance, shouldn't it?
<mdz> soren: we can use a "blank" 9.10 appliance as well, for test purposes
<soren> I mean... that's clearly the most obvious way to publish that.
<mathiaz> soren: I'd thought so
<mdz> mathiaz: so we shouldn't need to block on soren
<mathiaz> mdz: agreed.
<mdz> the stock 9.10 UEC image should be able to go in the store
<mdz> [topic] UEC documentation (kirkland)
<MootBot> New Topic:  UEC documentation (kirkland)
<mdz>     *
<mdz>       What needs to be documented, where, and by whom? How can you help? (DustinKirkland)
<kirkland> > [1] http://help.ubuntu.com/community/UEC
<kirkland> > [2] http://help.ubuntu.com/community/UEC/PackageInstall
<kirkland> those are two links to documentation
<ttx> [1] is in reasonably good shape
<kirkland> we also have testcases in the iso testing wiki
<ttx> [2] needs a lot of work
<kirkland> these materials need to converge on something we can point UEC users to
<kirkland> i'm willing and able to help whip those into shape
<ttx> I recently removed the "wrong" instructions from [2] (bundle your running kernel with UEC images)
<nurmi> kirkland: i can help as well
<kirkland> but I'm proposing that there are more people here that can help enhance that
 * kirkland high fives nurmi
<mdz> thanks, nurmi
<kirkland> anyone else?
<kirkland> ttx?  mathiaz?
<ttx> kirkland: count me in
<kirkland> shall we split the responsibilities?
<mdz> kirkland: what kind of help is needed? I'm sure there are plenty of people who can read and edit for clarity, but fewer who can actually run through an end-to-end test
<mathiaz> kirkland: I can review the PackageInstall doc
<ttx> though I don't have the necessary hw to tset multicomponent, I can test the "by package" install
<kirkland> or just let it grow organically?
<mathiaz> kirkland: as this is what I'm mostly doing in my installs
<kirkland> mdz: i've been driving my installs from the testcases wiki ... i was thinking of shifting to drive my installs from the documentation
<ttx> I think [2] should be split between two scenarios, multicomponent and multicluster
<kirkland> mdz: once we all started working from the test cases wiki, it really improved dramatically
<kirkland> i think something along these lines will help
<kirkland> but with more focus on explanation
<kirkland> rather than copy-n-paste commands
<mdz> kirkland: it would make sense to have one set of setup instructions, and just reference that
 * mathiaz thinks testcases and documentation should be merged at some point in the future
<kirkland> mdz: of course
<ttx> mathiaz: the testcase is script-oriented, the doc is human-readability-oriented
<kirkland> okay, so we first agree on a format
<mathiaz> ttx: I have an idea about that - but right now is not the time to discuss it ;)
<ttx> I tried to avoid obscure script combos in [1]
<ttx> yes, lets take this off-meeting
<mdz> ok, we are almost out of time, can we close on documentation?
<kirkland> mdz: yes, i think we have some volunteers now
<mdz> there is one to-be-assigned bug: bug 455873
<ttx> kirkland, mathiaz: email, ubuntu-cloud or ubuntu-server ML ?
<ubottu> Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: The read operation timed out (https://launchpad.net/bugs/455873)
<mdz> bug 455873
<kirkland> ttx: ubuntu-server, i suggest
 * mathiaz agrees
<ttx> kirkland: you start it, you choose
<ubottu> Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: The read operation timed out (https://launchpad.net/bugs/455873)
<kirkland> ttx: okay
<ttx> mdz: I think zul proposed to take it
<mdz> it's "mod_proxy causes duplicate query strings when nocanon option is used"
<ttx> if that's the one I think it is
<zul> yeah I did
<mdz> on apache2
<mdz> ok, assigned
<mdz> I assume it is not 9.10-critical
<zul> its for hardy
<mathiaz> mdz: nope - fixed in karmic
<ttx> zul: prio 2
<zul> k
<mdz> please update the bug to reflect that it's 8.04
<ScottK> Just to toss in a clamav update: clamav 0.95.3 will likely be released on Monday, so it'll go to -proposed.  i hope to have some post-RC packaging fixes though.
<mdz> mathiaz: can we skip the SRU review?
<mathiaz> mdz: sure
<mdz> [topic] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<mdz> ScottK: ok, thanks
<mdz> anything else?
<zul> nope
<mdz> ok, looks like we are in pretty good shape overall. thanks, all
<mdz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:01.
<jcastro> nurmi: ping!
<jcastro> nurmi: I need a response to my mail wrt UDS
<nurmi> jcastro: sent via email, apologies for the delay
<jcastro> nurmi: no worries
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-10-21
<pedro_> hello folks
<davmor2> heelo
<ara> hey
<bdmurray> hi
 * marjo waves
<davmor2> meh I can't be bother to correct it
<schwuk> hi
<marjo> #startmeeting QA Team Meeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:00. The chair is marjo.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<marjo> Hi folks! Thanks for joining us today.
<marjo> Agenda for today's meeting
<marjo> # SRU testing -- sbeattie (Steve Beattie)
<marjo> # Bugday highlights -- pedro
<marjo> # RC Testing -- ara
<sbeattie> hey
<marjo> Does anybody want to add anything to the agenda?
<marjo> [TOPIC] SRU Testing -- sbeattie (Steve Beattie)
<MootBot> New Topic:  SRU Testing -- sbeattie (Steve Beattie)
<sbeattie> SRU Activity for the past week (since 2009-10-14):
<sbeattie> * Jaunty: no new packages in -proposed and 2 pushed to -updates (tzdata, zsync)
<sbeattie> * Intrepid: 2 new packages in -proposed (landscape-client, smart) and 1 pushed to -updates (tzdata)
<sbeattie> * Hardy: no new packages in -proposed and 3 packages pushed to -updates (apt-cacher, tzdata, vblade)
<sbeattie> * Dapper: no new packages in -proposed and 1 package pushed to -updates (langpack-locales)
<sbeattie> Thanks to Paul Elliott, Dave Morley, and Wolfgang Kufner for testing fixes this week.
<sbeattie> That's all I have on SRUs.
<marjo> [TOPIC] Bugday Highlights -- pedro
<MootBot> New Topic:  Bugday Highlights -- pedro
<pedro_> Last Thursday we ran a bug day for the Server Team
<marjo> Thanks sbeattie!
<pedro_> it was a general bug day, so we created bug lists based on all the packages they're currently tracking
<pedro_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20091014
<pedro_> it turned out to be really cool, around 150 bugs were triaged
<marjo> pedro: nice work!
<pedro_> so thanks a lot to zul and ttx for helping us that day and for answering the questions the community had
<pedro_> and also thanks to kamus and sbarjola for their participation
<pedro_> I'm not planning to run a bug day for this week, since I'd like to put some more efforts into iso testing instead :-)
<pedro_> that's all from here
<marjo> pedro: nice segue for our next topic; thx
<pedro_> my pleasure :-)
<marjo> [TOPIC] RC Testing (ara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  RC Testing (ara)
<ara> As you all know, tomorrow we are releasing Karmic Release Candidate
<ara> it is the last milestone before the final release
<ara> and we all have to try to make our best to complete all the test cases
<ara> as usual, these two links will tell you what needs to be done: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/all/inprogress
<ara> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/all/untested
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/all/untested
<ara> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/all/inprogress
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/all/inprogress
<ara> I am having an issue with Dell mini9 and OEM setups
<ara> http://launchpad.net/bugs/456990
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://launchpad.net/bugs/456990
<ubottu> Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: The read operation timed out (https://launchpad.net/bugs/456990)
<ara> but I cannot reproduce it outside the mini9
<ubottu> Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: The read operation timed out (https://launchpad.net/bugs/456990)
<ara> does anyone one owns a netbook?
<pedro_> not me
<ara> mmm, I see it is fixed now
<ara> it was the usb creator, apparently
<ara> all the issues that prevented installation seem isolated
<ara> that's good news
<ara> but we need to cover all the rest
<marjo> ara: anything else?
<ara> marjo, no, that's it
<marjo> Folks: Please help us achieve 100% test coverage on RC!
<marjo> At Beta, we hit 98%, oh so close
<ara> I have another small topic
<marjo> ara go
<davmor2> marjo: we got 100% it's just the last 2 test got done the next day ;)
<ara> One community member, Cesar MuÃ±oz, have offered to update the QATeam wiki with meeting logs and summary
<ara> He is starting this week
<marjo> davmor2: i'll take your 100%!
<sbeattie> ara: he just did last week's meeting; thanks Cesar!
<pedro_> awesome!
<ara> \o/
<davmor2> Nice one dude
<marjo> thanks Cesar Munoz!
<marjo> ara: anything else?
<ara> marjo, no, that's it
<marjo> ara thx!
<marjo> folks: anything else from anyone?
<davmor2> nope
<marjo> karmic quality is looking very good
<marjo> i propose we adjourn, so we can continue testing.
<marjo> going once
<marjo> twice
<marjo> thanks folks! see you next time
<marjo> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:21.
<dpm> so, hi everyone
<adiroiban> hi
<dpm> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 13:00. The chair is dpm.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<dpm> welcome everyone to this Ubuntu Translations meeting tonight
<dpm> first things first, let's see who' here?
<Mirv> o/
<dpm> hiya adiroiban, hey Mirv
<adiroiban> o/
<joskulj> hi, here
<adiroiban> :D
<dpm> hi joskulj!
<joskulj> hi everyone
<Ursinha> me
<dpm> hi Ursinha!
<Ursinha> hi dpm :)
<dpm> let's wait for a minute if there is anyone else turning up, and then we can start
<dpm> ok, let's get started, then
<dpm> so, we've got more people coming, welcome markjones
<dpm> As you know, the main point is discussing possible topics for translations sessions for the UDS -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Meetings/2009-10-21
<adiroiban> dpm: do you know how many slots do we have for this UDS?
<dpm> adiroiban, I don't know it yet
<dpm> anyway, I see people have been adding topic suggestions already, so thanks a lot for the suggestions
<dpm> I think we can just start from that list, and people can comment on them
<dpm> how does that sound?
<Mirv> sounds fine
<dpm> also feel free to propose ideas as we go along
<dpm> the idea is to have a good collection of topics to pick up
<dpm> and then decide which ones would be interesting for UDS.
<dpm> adiroiban, you've got the first topic on the list, would youlike to start with a short intro on that one?
<adiroiban> yep
<adiroiban> but I think the Wiki description is complete
<adiroiban> :)
<dpm> just for the benefit of the presents and for the logs, then :)
<adiroiban> I would like a talk with Rosetta admin to see if someone can implement that feature
<adiroiban> now that Rosetta is opensource maybe we can have a blueprint for that
<dpm> so you are talking about message sharing between LP-hosted projects and distro packages
<adiroiban> this feature will be useful for projects like ubiquity-slideshow, UNR, ubuntu-start-page
<adiroiban> yes
<Mirv> and any non-ubuntu-specific ones as well potentially, like transmission. maybe optional.
<adiroiban> yes
<markjones> I feel it's a good idea, as Rosetta already offers suggestions for translations.
<adiroiban> since we already have message sharing between Ubuntu releases
<adiroiban> and like markjones says, we have suggestions
<Mirv> though that needs a bit of care, and/or advocating - messages from "Open" permission projects shouldn't go to Ubuntu, and way too many LP projects have the permissions set like that instead of LP Translators / Structured
<dpm> I think it would definitely be an interesting feature, and something the LP translations team have thought about. It's only finding the resources to implement that :)
<adiroiban> Mirv: yep
<adiroiban> ok. The second one should be a roundtable for the Ubuntu Translation Project
<dpm> The LP translations team is going to be focusing on upstream integration in the next months (see also https://lists.launchpad.net/launchpad-dev/msg01361.html), so I think this feature might be out of focus for them^
<dpm> although I'm sure they'd be happy to discuss it
<dpm> and guide anyone who'd like to take the step to implement it
<dpm> what do you say, Ursinha?
<dpm> anyway, sorry we can move along to your second topic, just commenting on it
<adiroiban> I was thinking this features is not that complicated to implement, and maybe we can find some resources in the community
<Ursinha> dpm: I think it's pretty much what you said
<adiroiban> dpm: you know it best, and like I said, it's ok if we skip it
<dpm> adiroiban, it's a good idea (but remember that there is no such thing as "easy to implement" ;) )
<Ursinha> dpm: agreed :)
<adiroiban> :)
<adiroiban> ok
<Mirv> if I'd have all the time in the world it'd be nice to get to know to LP code now that it's finally free
<adiroiban> third: Indentifying the source package/template from UI strings
<adiroiban> I would like to discuss if we can have that feature in Rosetta,
<adiroiban> or we should create a webapp for that
<adiroiban> or a desktop app
<dpm> Mirv, just one click away -> https://dev.launchpad.net/Getting :)
<adiroiban> there were many such request
<adiroiban> and we should see how we can help the translators
<adiroiban> with these problems
<dpm> adiroiban, can you expand a bit more on this? I'm not sure I understand it from the wiki description
<adiroiban> like when you see a wrong translation
<adiroiban> but you are not sure where to translate it
<adiroiban> ex. "Password:" from gdm
<Ursinha> adiroiban: interesting, this question came up a few days ago and I didn't know the answer
<adiroiban> or you see some text that is not transalted
<adiroiban> and you dont know if that string is not translatable
<dpm> ok, I get it thanks
<adiroiban> or is just that it si not translated
<markjones> i get it too, so an app that highlights what hasn't been translated, yeah, another good idea, but can somebody make such a thing?
<dpm> Again, I'm not sure it will be possible to have that in LP, but might be interesting to explore creating an application for that
<adiroiban> yep
<markjones> (what i'm asking is that are there the resources to turn this idea into a application?)
<adiroiban> maybe we can have a prototype
<adiroiban> I am very keen to investigate this problem and help with coding and stuff
<dpm> the search string script Mirv posted on the list or the one with the same functionality in the ubuntu translator tools package can be used as a starting point
<markjones> I think it would be very useful, and can help with beta testing.
<dpm> and perhaps creating an ubuntu translations tool package
<adiroiban> yep
<Mirv> yeah, basically just a GUI etc. on top of that/those
<dpm> as we were talking earlier on
<dpm> with all useful tools for translators
<dpm> yes
<adiroiban> the session should gather some feedback
<adiroiban> and gather the requirements
<dpm> adiroiban, might be interesting to change that topic and make it more general, perhaps expanding it to other tools
<adiroiban> yep
<adiroiban> i will do that
<dpm> great, any other comments on that one?
<adiroiban> it can be Ubuntu translation tools
<dpm> sounds good
<adiroiban> or tools for translators, etc
<adiroiban> Translating Ubuntu Docs, help files, training materials
<adiroiban> right now we have Ubuntu docs in place
<adiroiban> but I don't know if xubuntu-docs or kubuntu-docs are updated / translated properly
<adiroiban> also we have OpenOffice.org docs and gnome docs
<adiroiban> but I don't know if the are used
<adiroiban> and if translators are aware of that
<adiroiban> we now also have Ubuntu Desktop Course available for translations
<adiroiban> the idea of this session is to gather feedback
<adiroiban> and see how we can improve the current ubuntu docs/help/training translation process
<dpm> it sounds good to me, it might be interesting to have folks from the Documentation and Training teams
<Mirv> good thing, since it would also serve about who should be contacted so that eg. xubuntu-docs translations would actually be taken into use... and I'm not sure if kubuntu-docs package has been always cared about either
<adiroiban> yep, this is a common session with ubuntu-docs
<dpm> IIRC some guys from the Docs team will be there on the last days
<dpm> ok, good stuff
<dpm> any other comments?
<adiroiban> i think we can continue :)
<dpm> Mirv, do you want to kick off your topic?
<Mirv> yes, well the user experience of start.ubuntu.com for non-English users is still not perfect, except if all you do is use the search. 9.10 has been quite silent on the ubuntu-website list.
<adiroiban> we also have these bugs https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-start-page
<adiroiban> that will need some love
<Mirv> and it's a co-operation between translators, docs team and the maybe bit hidden ubuntu-website team so if no-one does the initiative it seems not to take off by itself
<adiroiban> most of them are trivial, is just that we need to escalade them to someone with access to ubuntu.com servers
<Mirv> now that newz2000 has not been that active on the mailing list, there are virtually no people there discussing eg. any possible stuff done for 9.10, so I don't know if there are other people in the team eg. at Canonical or not
<dpm> I can try to find out more and post more info on that, and perhaps try to involve the relevant people in a shared session
<dpm> anyway, sounds good to me too, if there are no more comments, I'll go on to the next proposal
<Mirv> it could be even just part of a larger ubuntu website session, if only the website people are found. but yes go on.
<dpm> ok, yes, I'll try to find out more
<dpm> anyway, here's the next suggestion
<dpm> Testing for Translations
<adiroiban> just a second
<adiroiban> for that website session
<dpm> yes, sure, go on
<adiroiban> maybe we can have a session and also discuss if we can have some translations for support and participate pages
<adiroiban> as right now they are in english
<adiroiban> and the support page it very important to be translated
<Mirv> yes, my idea included those, since they are linked from star.ubuntu.com
<adiroiban> and to provide local resources
<adiroiban> :)
<adiroiban> just to be sure
<Mirv> and like I listed in the mailing list post, there are several options
<adiroiban> done. dpm, please
<dpm> adiroiban, good idea. Can you add an additional point to Mirv's topic in the wiki with your suggestions?
<adiroiban> dpm: ok
<dpm> Testing for Translations
<dpm> Cross session Translations/QA about test cases for translations. We could come up with a good blueprint for Lucid to add those kind of cases to the ISO tracke
<dpm> r
<dpm> it's about having a formal process for testing translations
<dpm> before it's too late in the cycle
<dpm> the idea is to think about translations-related testcases that could go on (let me find the link...)
<adiroiban> yep, I was thinking about translation testing
<dpm> http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/
<adiroiban> but I have now idea how we can describe it in a formal manner
<adiroiban> or structured way
<Mirv> are those automatic testing cases or manually done?
<Mirv> manual, right
<adiroiban> i think manual
<dpm> adiroiban, you can have a look at some of the test cases in there ^
<adiroiban> do we have test cases for translations ?
<dpm> adiroiban, not formal ones, that'd be the purpose of the session
<Mirv> I think those are a good idea. We have many regressions each release which are simply found by doing a simple virtualbox installation and looking around.
<dpm> yes
<adiroiban> yep, I was saying that I don't know how we can have a formal testcase for translation
<dpm> but I think if we could formalize those we could get more testing coverage
<adiroiban> rather, just to a install / usage test case with the localized version of Ubuntu
<adiroiban> and we will need some translators to get involved in the QA part
<Steffen_Eibicht> 5i
<dpm> adiroiban, for example something along the lines of http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/d18df45d
<dpm> (as an example of a test)
<dpm> the idea is that not only translators could do the test
<adiroiban> they are just smoke tests
<adiroiban> as we can have some wrong translations
<adiroiban> anyway
<adiroiban> we sure can discuss this durring UDS, togheter with QA team
<dpm> adiroiban, these tests do catch errors
<adiroiban> as they have more experience with testing
<dpm> and I think having tests will definitely be an improvement over the current situation
<Mirv> testing for I18N bugs has its problems, since it's so hard to tell whether something is untranslated or untranslatable during the development period. but some tests would probably still definitely improve the situation.
<Mirv> or maybe not that hard for us, but for mechanical testing purposes
<dpm> I agree, I think it is something we can discuss with the testing team.
<adiroiban> I am quite happy with the bug reports we got from Ubuntu translators during this cycle
<dpm> adiroiban, I am too, but that would be an additional chack
<dpm> check
<adiroiban> and I think our developers had a lot of i18n bugs reported
<adiroiban> o
<adiroiban> ok
<Mirv> we would need I18N-enthusiastic developers, in addition to us... who like to hunt such things. for many developer I18N is a burden, not something fun.
<adiroiban> yep
<Mirv> eg. get at least some non-English developers to use their Ubuntu in their native language
<Mirv> and tell that any English they see is a bug :)
<dpm> Mirv, in many cases is also lack of documentation resources on translation. We've got https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/Internationalisation for developers as reference
<dpm> but it still needs some expansion
<adiroiban> or encourage Ubuntu developers to improve their foreign language skils and use Ubuntu in ES
<adiroiban> for ex :)
<dpm> haha
<Mirv> adiroiban: heh, that too :)
<adiroiban> ok
<dpm> anyway, we've only got a few minutes left
<adiroiban> I think we can go the the next topic
<dpm> shall I go on to the next topic or would anyone like to suggest any other ones they might have thought of?
<adiroiban> https://devpad.canonical.com/~danilo/ubuntu/ is not available for normal users
<dpm> Note that I'll move all the topics from the wiki to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityTeam/UDS, where I started adding mine
<adiroiban> ok
<Mirv> I only had testing in mind additionally when we started but it was already on the list, so no...
<dpm> adiroiban, yes, we know it, danilo is going to have a look into that, as I mentioned back then on the ML
<dpm> it's just a technical issue
<adiroiban> are we going to have a Rosetta feedback session ?
<dpm> adiroiban, we can have it :)
<adiroiban> together with Rosetta devs?
<dpm> adiroiban, danilo and Ursinha are going to be there, so that's definitely possible
<adiroiban> yep, that would be great
<dpm> perhaps not only feedback but also info from them
<dpm> on what they'll be working
<dpm> in the net few months
<dpm> anyway, as I say, I'll move the topics to the general topics page (or perhaps to the Translations wiki and a link to it)
<adiroiban> and thank them for their hard work :)
<Mirv> fine
<dpm> we can still continue the discussion on the ML
<adiroiban> ok
<dpm> or organize another meeting if necessary
<adiroiban> dpm: i suppose you will handle session planing
<adiroiban> I think it will be enough if you inform us what sessions were accepted
<adiroiban> or if we have spare slots
<dpm> adiroiban, on translations, yes
<adiroiban> yep
<adiroiban> for translations
<dpm> of course, I can do that
<dpm> anyway, that only leaves thanking you all for your participation
<Mirv> some can be then combined if needed
<dpm> and the usual great feedback and ideas
<Mirv> thanks to you all for your work
<dpm> have a nice evening and see you all soon!
<dpm> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 14:03.
<dpm> good night!
<adiroiban> dpm: so you are going to move the wiki content now
<adiroiban> and we should expand it on the community/UDS page?
<dpm> adiroiban, now I'm going to call it a day and have dinner :)
<adiroiban> :)
<Mirv> bye :)
<dpm> adiroiban, tomorrow I'll move it. I'm thinking the Translations wiki space would be best for it, in order not to clutter the general UDS page
<adiroiban> ok
<dpm> and then I'd add a link on the UDS page
<adiroiban> np
<dpm> adiroiban -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/UDS
<greg-g> hello!
 * pleia2 waves
<kenvandine> hey greg-g
<swoody> hello :)
<pleia2> ok folks, we're here for the Americas Membership Board Meeting
<pleia2> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 17:00. The chair is pleia2.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<pleia2> Tenach, delphiexile, you here?
<Darxus> pleia2: Hi :P
<pleia2> hey Darxus :)
<Darxus> I unfortunately need to leave now.
<pleia2> ok, looks like we'll be starting off with kenvandine
<kenvandine> ok :)
<pleia2> [TOPIC] Ken VanDine Membership Application
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ken VanDine Membership Application
<pleia2> kenvandine: please introduce yourself and give links to your wiki and lp :)
<kenvandine> ok
<kenvandine> i work on the ubuntu-desktop team, as an integration engineer
<kenvandine> so my day job i spend working with the ubuntuone and desktop experience folks to get their stuff into ubuntu
<kenvandine> wiki page
<kenvandine> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KenVanDine
<kenvandine> which is kind of bare... sorry about that, thought i had updated it
<kenvandine> and LP https://launchpad.net/~ken-vandine
<kenvandine> which shows my participation
<kenvandine> some of my significant contributions for the karmic cycle has been gwibber development and empathy messaging indicator support
<kenvandine> as well as empathy AV chat work
<greg-g> which I greatly appreciate
<kenvandine> :)
<kenvandine> goals for the future of ubuntu?  make it rock more!
<czajkowski> and gwibber, thank you for that
<kenvandine> specifically multi-user chat in empathy
<kenvandine> etc
<kenvandine> more collaboration related stuff, i am very keen on that
<greg-g> kenvandine: what is the status of the "social from the start" desktop experience?
<kenvandine> anything else I should talk about ?
<kenvandine> greg-g, postponed for lucid
<beuno> kenvandine, any LoCo work?  (hi!)
<Technoviking> kenvandine: Do you do any work with your Loco
<kenvandine> i will be spending lots of time on that for lucid
<greg-g> kenvandine: cool, just curious :)
<kenvandine> ah... loco
<kenvandine>  a little
<kenvandine> i got a bunch of CDs and handled getting them distributed at our NC loco
<kenvandine> with akgraner
<Technoviking> good good
<kenvandine> also spent a little time with them getting re-organized
<kenvandine> it was just starting to come back to life when i started contributing to ubuntu (in feb)
<kenvandine> i should do more
<greg-g> were you at the Atlanta Linux Fest?
<Technoviking> kenvandine: that is great to hear
<kenvandine> nope
<kenvandine> greg-g, too much travel this year... my wife would have skinned me
<kenvandine> akgraner is rocking it though in NC!
<greg-g> kenvandine: understandable :)
<kenvandine> she's awesome :)
<pleia2> yeah she is :)
<Technoviking> kenvandine: anyone to cheer for kenvandine?
<greg-g> +1 to akgraner ... oh wait, I already did that last meeting :)
<kenvandine> hehe
<pleia2> kenvandine: future plans?
<kenvandine> more gwibber and empathy work in the near future
<kenvandine> stabilizing gwibber and adding a ton of exception handling
<kenvandine> which right now there is very little :/
<kenvandine> plenty of packaging too
<greg-g> wow, exception handling in gwibber? amazing thought
<pleia2> great :)
<kenvandine> greg-g, yeah... it WILL happen :)
<greg-g> :)
<greg-g> ok, I think we're ready to vote, wanna do that speacial mootbot thing pleia2 ?
<pleia2> [VOTE] Ken VanDine Membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Ken VanDine Membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<kenvandine> oh i also contribute to gm-notify
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<kenvandine> which is indicator integration for gmail
<pleia2> keep up the great work, kenvandine!
<greg-g> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from greg-g. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<boredandblogging> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from boredandblogging. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<Technoviking> +1, if you promise to flesh out your wiki page :)
<greg-g> thanks for all the great work, ken
<kenvandine> Technoviking, i will... tonight :)
<Technoviking> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Technoviking. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<kenvandine> i think i have a draft up in tomboy somewhere
 * beuno abstains on Canonical employees
<kenvandine> beuno, understand :)
<beuno> kenvandine, but you rock  :)
<kenvandine> hehe
<kenvandine> thx
<cody-somerville> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cody-somerville. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<greg-g> congrats, kenvandine !
<kenvandine> woot
<kenvandine> thx!
<pleia2> #endvote
<pleia2> how do I do this thing
<pleia2> hehe
<Technoviking> Congrats Ken
<greg-g> [ENDVOTE] maybe?
<kenvandine> hey fader_
<pleia2> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<Vantrax> yer
<pleia2> thanks greg-g :)
<pleia2> congrats kenvandine, welcome!
<greg-g> :)
<nhandler> Congratulations kenvandine
<kenvandine> excellent :)
<Vantrax> grats kenvandine
<pleia2> duanedesign: you around?
<duanedesign> yes
<swoody> grats kenvandine :D
<pleia2> [TOPIC] Duane Hinnen Membership Application
<MootBot> New Topic:  Duane Hinnen Membership Application
<pleia2> duanedesign: please introduce yourself and provide a link to your wiki and lp
<duanedesign> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/duanedesign
<duanedesign> https://launchpad.net/~duanedesign
<duanedesign> my name is Duane Hinnen
<duanedesign> I am lead for the OKlahoma LoCo.  Where my responsibilities include but are not limited to some of the following. I welcoming new members and introduce them to the different tools the , maintaining the LoCos online resources, and organize events. I also publish a newsletter to keep the loco energized.
<bodhi_zazen> w00t duanedesign :8
<duanedesign> :)
<duanedesign> I am also a proud member of the Ubuntu Beginners Team. Where I spend lots of time doing wiki work, bug triage, IRC support.
<ZachK_> am i too late?
<pleia2> duanedesign: cool, any plans for a karmic release party?
<duanedesign> We have one shaping up nicely in  OKC
<pleia2> awesome :)
<duanedesign> OKlahoma City
<beuno> ZachK_, no, we've just started
<ZachK_> whew...
<Vantrax> I just like to say duanedesign's application for membership is long overdue, and hes a handy guy to have in the Beginners Team.
<duanedesign> Tulsa, is hopefully going to follow :)
<ZachK_> i just got back from orientation for work so i was hoping to make it
<beuno> duanedesign, how long have you been active in Ubuntu?
<duanedesign> I also recently tok over as lead of the Beginners Team Launchpad Focus Group. Where i plan to do lots to help educate the community about LP
<duanedesign> I have been heavily active since aprox. this time last year
<duanedesign> beuno: ^^
<greg-g> duanedesign: could you tell me more about "Best of the Ubuntu Community Forums Tutorials" this is a new project to me!
<duanedesign> greg-g: I am glad you ask
<beuno> helping begginners is hard work, it's great that your so involved in that
<Vantrax> beuno, hes good at it too
<duanedesign> greg-g: It is a collection of Forum tutorials and How-to's. I compile them put them in Doc Book format soo they are viewable in Yelp, like the System help
<greg-g> interesting.. what is the license for the content?
<duanedesign> CCreative Commons ShareAlike 2.5 License (CC-BY-SA)
<duanedesign> greg-g: ^^
<greg-g> duanedesign: awesome, good choice
 * greg-g works for Creative Commons (full disclosure)
<duanedesign> I like to send out letters to tutorials authors and get their blessing. And hopefully involve them with updating the tutorials for future releases
 * Vantrax has found greg-g very useful because of that:P
<pleia2> yeah, we all (ab)use greg-g :)
<greg-g> duanedesign: I hope you get their blessing to license their work as CC:BY-SA :)
<pleia2> [VOTE] Duane Hinnen Membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Duane Hinnen Membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<pleia2> awesome work, duanedesign :)
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<greg-g> I do like the idea of pinging them each release for updates, keeping the tutorials current, the people engaged, all good things
<greg-g> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from greg-g. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<greg-g> good work, duanedesign
<Silver_Fox_Busy> Can I also add my support for duanedesign?  He is very friendly,  knowledgeable and always tries to help others.  I watch on with keen interest the direction he takes the beginners launchpad focus group .  I know he will do well.
<Technoviking> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Technoviking. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<duanedesign> We also have plans to translate the project into Spanish. BOUCFT would be a wonderful tool in Latin America where internet is not always freely available
<beuno> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from beuno. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<boredandblogging> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from boredandblogging. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<cody-somerville> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cody-somerville. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<pleia2> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
<pleia2> congrats duanedesign!
<swoody> congrats duanedesign :D
<bodhi_zazen> Congrats duanedesign , long, long overdue :8
<nhandler> Congrats duanedesign
<greg-g> congrats duanedesign
<Silver_Fox_> Well done duanedesign.
<duanedesign> thank you I humbly accept this honor :)
<cody-somerville> w00t w00t
<pleia2> ok, looks like luis_lopez isn't here
<pleia2> swoody: you around?
<swoody> yes, pleia2 :)
<beuno> duanedesign, welcome to the team!
<cody-somerville> you're on the hot tamale train now!
<pleia2> [TOPIC] Steve Woodruff Membership Application
<MootBot> New Topic:  Steve Woodruff Membership Application
<duanedesign> thank you bueno
<Vantrax> YAY
<pleia2> swoody: please introduce yourself and give a link to lp and wiki
<swoody> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/swoody
<swoody> https://launchpad.net/~swoody
<swoody> My name is Steve Woodruff...
<swoody> I am a member of the Ubuntu Beginner's Team, and have been since the beginning of this year
<swoody> my main focus so far has been trying to help new users in the Forums and on IRC
<swoody> I am also an adamant supporter of the Folding @ Home project
<bodhi_zazen> swoody has been fantastic to work with, very knowledgeable and always willing to help
<Silver_Fox_> I have known swoody through activities with UBT, more specifically the IRC support channel which I co lead.  I find him patient, helpful and always willing to offer advice to any who seek it.  He has been a real asset not only to my focus group,  but to the community as a whole.  I support this application 100%
<swoody> before coming to the BT, I had also dabbled in the MOTU, and would really like to get back in touch with them in the future
<swoody> thank you bodhi_zazen and Silver_Fox_ :)
<Vantrax> I've been involved with swoody since he started becoming active in the community. He is a valued member of the beginners team and a great contributor to the community. I strongly recommend him for membership.
<greg-g> uh oh, nixternal was one of your testimonials? ;)
<Vantrax> He is also a valued member of the community learning project.
<swoody> greg-g, yes, is that a bad thing? ;)
<pleia2> swoody: of course, that nutter is driving down 95 on his bike as we speak!
<greg-g> swoody: you know him, right? ;)
<nhandler> swoody also came to the Ubuntu Chicago Global Jam event (where he brought some great cookies), and he has volunteered to give a presentation at out upcoming Karmic release party
<swoody> plars, haha, very true :)
<swoody> pleia2, ^^
<greg-g> cool re: global jam and future presentation
<swoody> greg-g, yes, I met him at the Chicago Loco Global Jam ;)
<beuno> swoody, how long have you been using Ubuntu?
<LeAstrale> Cookies help everything :)
<ZachK_> nice one with the cookies swoody
<talsemgeest> swoody is amazing at helping new users both on the forums and IRC, and is extremely knowledgeable in doing so. He is a valued member of the Beginners Team, and I believe he would be brilliant as an ubuntu member
<swoody> beuno, about a year and a half now
<Vantrax> also i supposed in the interests of fair disclosure, I was swoodys mentor for the BT.
<swoody> thank you all for the kind words :)
<Vantrax> Thank you for your contributions and positive attitude.
<swoody> it's been my pleasure :)
<duanedesign> swoody is very helpful and I support him 100%. (even if he uses folding@home instead of BOINC)
<duanedesign> :p
<pleia2> hehe
<swoody> duanedesign, haha, we can collaborate on a Distributed Computing team ;)
<cody-somerville> +1
<pleia2> [VOTE] Steve Woodruff Membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Steve Woodruff Membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<cody-somerville> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cody-somerville. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<boredandblogging> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from boredandblogging. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<greg-g> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from greg-g. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<pleia2> awesome work, swoody :) keep it up!
<beuno> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from beuno. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<greg-g> keep up the good work, swoody
<cody-somerville> w00t w00t You're on the hot tamale train tonight!
<swoody> thank you pleia2 :)
<Vantrax> lol
<swoody> and I'll be sure to :)
<bodhi_zazen> Congrats swoody =)
<pleia2> [ENDVOTE]
<nhandler> Congratulations swoody
<talsemgeest> Congrats swoody!
<Vantrax> welcome to the family
<swoody> thank you *very* much everybody :D
<pleia2> hrm, I fail at mootbot tonight
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<pleia2> oh there it goes :)
<pleia2> welcome, swoody!
<Vantrax> mootbot just runs a little slow some times
<Silver_Fox_> Well done swoody =]
<pleia2> ZachK_: you around?
<ZachK_> yes
<greg-g> try that endvote again? or just wait?
<pleia2> it finally took
<greg-g> oh wait, sorry, didn't see it came through, ignore me
<pleia2> [TOPIC] Zach Kriesse Membership Application
<MootBot> New Topic:  Zach Kriesse Membership Application
<greg-g> ZachK_: go ahead and give your intro and links to lp and wiki pages
<ZachK_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Zachk18 https://launchpad.net/~zach-kleinhenz
<ZachK_> I think some of you know me from a month or so ago...
<ZachK_> But I'm a member of the Beginners Team, I have a padawan, and i'm a member of several focus groups and some teams on Launchpad
<Technoviking> +! for swoody for the record, had to kick a server
<Technoviking> +1
<bodhi_zazen> I am sorry I neglected to write a testimonial for ZachK_ on his wiki page :(
<bodhi_zazen> He has my full support in his application for membership and as you can see has made significant contributions to the Ubuntu Community, he enjoys documentation
<talsemgeest> ZachK_ has helped a lot with new users on IRC, and has done a lot on the forums. He is an integral part of the beginners team, and he has my full support for membership.
<ZachK_> Mainly I deal in doc and wiki work. Editing pages and such but I also help new users acclimate to Ubuntu, set up a Wiki page and get into the team(Beginners Team)
 * Vantrax wanders over to recruit him for UCLP
<swoody> haha
<greg-g> ZachK_: I see you listed membership in the Illinoise LoCo, could you describe how that team is doing?
 * bodhi_zazen Go BT !!!
<greg-g> and I know you don't represent the team, I'm more just curious about the status of that team
<swoody> I would also like to extend my nod of approval for ZachK_ . He has been an absolute asset to the BT, and has gone above and beyond the help others.
<ZachK_> greg-g, i wouldn't know honestly as I finally found a LoCo team in my area...just two days ago infact
<greg-g> ah, well ok then :)
<ZachK_> sorry...
<beuno> ZachK_, it seems you're just getting started in the community, although it looks like a great start
<greg-g> no appology necessary
<beuno> how long have you been contributing?
<ZachK_> beuno, some months now....but i've jumped in with both feet as the saying goes
<ZachK_> i'm an all or nothing kind of guy
<bodhi_zazen> "just starting" is a bit of an understatement, he has done more in the past two months then some do in years =)
<beuno> bodhi_zazen, I understand
<pleia2> ZachK_: looks like you joined lp about 2 months ago? was there involvement prior to that elsewhere?
<beuno> but one of the requirements is sustained contributions across time
<ZachK_> pleia2, until ubuntu i didn't even know of lp...
<pleia2> ZachK_: I meant in ubuntu
<ZachK_> beuno, and i intend too
<beuno> it's an amazing amount of work in 2 months, but still, I feel that six months is a minimum
<ZachK_> pleia2, i've tested ubuntu before...didn't exactly know i was testing...and i promote ubuntu in the public whenever i can
<pleia2> I have to agree with beuno here, I think we'd really like to see more long-term involvement (6 months would be great)
<greg-g> but at least 3 is good (and the minimum I believe)
<beuno> ZachK_, keep this up, and in 3-4 months you'll fly right through here
<Technoviking> ZachK_: I think you are doing a great job also, but I think you need a little more time also
<ZachK_> :)
<ZachK_> ok
<pleia2> nice work so far though, so much activity in such short time!
<ZachK_> pleia2, i try
<pleia2> it's appreciated :)
<greg-g> ZachK_: yeah, I really think your 2 months of work is "worth" about 6 months, but, it is just one of those things we need to keep in mind when voting
<ZachK_> greg-g, ok
<greg-g> ZachK_: I second beuno's comment about flying through here in the next few months, too :)
<ZachK_> greg-g, k
<ZachK_> well thanks esteemed members of the board
<pleia2> I think we're pretty much in agreement here, thanks for coming ZachK_!
<greg-g> ZachK_: you are welcome and we really appreciate your work
<ZachK_> k
 * Bodsda wishes he could slip in at the end to run for membership *hint* :)
<beuno> ZachK_, it's great to have you in the community, hope to see you back soon
<ZachK_> k
<pleia2> Bodsda: sorry, some of us need to skip out :( really should put yourself on the list at least a day prior to meeting
<Bodsda> pleia2: I know -- I was just passing this way - didnt realise there was a meeting tonight
<Silver_Fox_> bodsa if you do it now you'll be up at the same time as me
<Silver_Fox_> ^ Bodsda ^
<pleia2> Thanks for coming everyone, congrats kenvandine, duanedesign and swoody! Hope to see you back in a few months, ZachK_ :)
<Bodsda> Well done BT!!!!
<pleia2> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:49.
<greg-g> thanks everyone!
<greg-g> congrats to the new members!
<greg-g> come back soon, ZachK_ !
<ZachK_> thanks pleia2 greg-g
<swoody> thank you all again! :D
<swoody> and congrats again to all!!!
<Vantrax> well done guys
<beuno> thanks for keeping Ubuntu rocking everyone
<Bodsda> congrats guys!
<Bodsda> pleia2: adding my name to the Europes list now :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-10-22
<cytotoxic> !staff
<ubottu> Hey nalioth, jenda, rob, SportChick, seanw, Dave2, Christel, tomaw, Gary, Vorian, PriceChild, niko or stew, I could use a bit of your time :)
<cytotoxic> !ops
<ubottu> Help! Seveas, Hobbsee, LjL, ompaulafk, Keybuk, mdz, sabdfl, janimo, ogra, mdke, dholbach, or jono
<jono> eh?
<Seveas> cytotoxic, ?
<MenZa> He's been hassling a number of channels now, jono/Seveas
<Seveas> ok
<MenZa> #ubuntu, #kubu-ot, -server, etc.
<jono> thanks Seveas
<Seveas> (will unban in a few mins)
<MenZa> Seveas: Second time he's hit with different nicks.
<MenZa> And masks, I believe.
<mdz> Seveas, MenZa, is that someone trying to get their friend's computer banned or something?
<Laney> unknown
<MenZa> mdz, not a clue.
<Seveas> mdz, or just someone with too much time on his hands :)
<jpds> Hmm, MC meeting.
<jpds> maco, mdeslaur; any of you two around?
<jpds> We don't seem to have a quorum.
<maco> jpds: wrong spelling? he's mako
<jpds> maco: Sorry, I'm reading from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Council/Meeting
<jpds> And it seems my calendar got the time, sorry.
<maco> no i think its right time...
<maco> im signed up for next meeting though :)
<mdeslaur> jpds: I'm here
<maco> dholbach is doing the airplane thing, so i guess he's missing
<mdeslaur> jpds: isn't the meeting at 1700 UTC?
<jpds> mdeslaur: Yes, sorry about that.
<geser> mdeslaur: your first test for core-dev: fix jpds' calender to show the correct meeting time :)
<mdeslaur> hehe
 * mdeslaur -> back at 1700
 * highvoltage peeks in
<jpds> Do we have a quorum?
 * geser is here
<geser> soren, persia: are you here?
<geser> highvoltage: as you applied also for package upload right, could you please add a list of package for which you want upload rights to your application?
<highvoltage> geser: ok
 * soren is sort of here
<highvoltage> geser: my sponsor suggested that I apply for MOTU but per-package upload rights would also be fine for now, I can't get hold of him so I just added a link to those packages to my application page
<soren> soren, geser: Is it just you and me?
<geser> soren: jpds is also here, but still no quorum
<soren> Ah, right.
<geser> highvoltage: no hurry, it looks like this meeting isn't happening due to missing quorum
<geser> soren: our hope is persia to reach quorum, anyone else is either travelling or don't have time (don't know about persia)
<highvoltage> geser: ok. is there any chance for feedback so long? and also, will you reschedule or would we wait until next month this time?
<geser> highvoltage: we will probably do it per mail
<jpds> It's midnight in Japan.
<highvoltage> geser: ok
 * soren wanders off for a bit
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-10-23
<pitti> hello
<ttx> o/
<ScottK> o/
 * lool \o/
 * ScottK guesses there's time to go get coffee
<ttx> ...
<lool> Is slangasek leading the meeting today?
<pitti> he was going to
<pitti> 1.5 hours ago he said he'd take a nap before the meeting
 * lool calls
 * pitti call... oh, got beaten to it
<lool> voicemail
<lool> pitti: I only have one number
<slangasek> hi
<cr3> could we call his chumpy?
<lool> Morning
<slangasek> morning
<pitti> hey slangasek
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:10. The chair is slangasek.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-10-23
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-10-23
<slangasek> [TOPIC] QA Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA Team
<marjo> HW Certification Testing
<marjo> Netbooks:
<marjo>    passed:      10 (91%)   failed:      0  ( 0%) untested:    1  ( 9%)
<marjo> Laptops:
<marjo>    passed:      26 (100%)  failed:      0  (  0%) untested:    0  (  0%)
<marjo> Servers:
<marjo>    passed:      48 (94%)   failed:      0  ( 0%)  untested:    3  ( 6%)
<marjo> Desktops:
<marjo>    passed:      12 (100%)  failed:      0  (  0%)  untested:    0  (  0%)
<marjo> pitti: another 100%
<pitti> \o/
<lool> impressive
<marjo> Karmic Release Candidate Test Report
<marjo> 2009-10-22
<marjo> == Test Coverage ==
<marjo> Image Test Coverage = 100%
<marjo> Test Case Coverage = 100%
<marjo> Beta Test Coverage = 99%
<marjo> Alpha 6 Test Coverage = 58%
<marjo> === Test Failure Analysis ===
<marjo> 10 Test Failures
<marjo> Failure Rate 8/194 = 5.1%
<marjo> Beta Failure Rate = 8%
<marjo> Alpha 6 Failure Rate = 15%
<marjo> Based on these test results, Karmic looks good
<marjo> from testing point of view
<marjo> == Bugs summary ==
<marjo> === Summary of Unfixed Issues ===
<marjo> 38 bugs unfixed
<marjo> Critical - 1
<marjo> High - 11
<marjo> Medium - 8
<marjo> Low - 4
<marjo> Undecided - 15
<marjo> === Summary of Fixed Issues ===
<marjo> 11 bugs fixed
<marjo> Critical - 1
<marjo> High - 7
<marjo> Low - 1
<marjo> Undecided - 2
<marjo> I will send out the detailed test results in an email
<marjo> that's all from QA
<slangasek> do you have the bug number of the unfixed critical bug handy?
<marjo> no i don't
<ScottK> 401406
<marjo> thx ScottK
<slangasek> bug #401406
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 401406 in lame "[Karmic] libmp3lame fails in converting audio" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/401406
<slangasek> thanks
<slangasek> doesn't look like one we need to discuss here
<pitti> I feel karmic is really working well if that is the only critical bug we have :)
<marjo> agree
<cr3> pitti: almost too well, it is unsettling indeed
<slangasek> heh
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Desktop Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop Team
<slangasek> pitti: so let's talk about some non-critical bugs? :)
<pitti> This week we landed the new GNOME point release in time. No problems reported from that
<pitti> other than that we pretty much exclusively did RC bug fixing
<pitti> and some polishing
<pitti> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<pitti> freshly updated again some 5 minutes ago
<pitti> so, the remaining bugs which haven't a fix available don't worry me too much any more
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<ScottK> slangasek: Jumping back a topic, I also see Bug 441338 and Bug 443089
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 441338 in dbus "CD drive not eject after cd inserted them becomes unusable karmic" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/441338
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 443089 in linux-backports-modules-2.6.31 "Internal microphone does not work on HP Mini Bixby" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/443089
<pitti> 408530 and 428884 really ought to be fixed in an SRU
<pitti> ScottK: sounds like a dupe of bug 264336 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 264336 in postgresql-8.3 "pgsql fails to start due to shared buffer setting greater than kernel allows" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/264336
<ScottK> Dunno.
<pitti> sorry
<pitti> bug 448921
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 448921 in devicekit-disks "eject button not working for video DVDs" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/448921
<slangasek> ScottK: for critical bugs?  I was wondering about the one that had been linked from ISO testing; 'critical' looks wrong for 443089, but we can talk about it with the kernel team?
<ScottK> Certainly, just trying to make sure I'd given a complete answer.
<pitti> so, that eject thing is not really a dk-disks bug (it does what it can), we either need to fix it in the kernel (stop locking altogether) or stop totem from locking it again
<slangasek> pitti: 408530, 428884> agreed
<pitti> oh, and 77010 was accepted into karmic
<pitti> (page updated)
<pitti> jockey fix as well (updated again)
<slangasek> pitti: 448921 should probably be considered for SRU too, then?
<pitti> any questions wrt. desktop from anyone?
<slangasek> (-->targeted to karmic)
<pitti> slangasek: depends how intrusive it is
<pitti> eject button works for CDs, etc. but not for video DVDs
<pitti> as soon as you start totem, that is
<slangasek> pitti: should it be targeted to keep it on the radar?
<pitti> if we need to fix it in the kernel, it might not be appropriate
<pitti> slangasek: fine for me; we can still wontfix it if it becomes too intrusive
<pitti> done
<slangasek> thanks
<slangasek> no other questions from me; anyone else?
<ScottK> You want any Kubuntu status now?
<slangasek> yes, please
<ScottK> We have a few uploads pending, but are in good shape generally.
<slangasek> (if there's status to mention, that is - not meaning to put you on the spot specifically :)
<ScottK> http://www.flickr.com/photos/freeflying/4036438792/in/set-72157622515083587/ <- Kubuntu Netbook on Freescale
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/freeflying/4036438792/in/set-72157622515083587/ <- Kubuntu Netbook on Freescale
<ScottK> I think the news is good.
<slangasek> :)
<ScottK> The only real serious unresolved problem I know of seems only to affect my laptop, so we probably needn't hold the release for that.
<ScottK> BTW, the packagekit upload that's pending is there for Kubuntu to fix a crasher.
<ScottK> That's it
<slangasek> (noted)
<slangasek> thanks
<slangasek> moving on?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] DX Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  DX Team
<davidbarth> hi
<slangasek> davidbarth: hey
<davidbarth> the summary is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/KarmicReleaseStatus
<davidbarth> mainly
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/KarmicReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/KarmicReleaseStatus
<lool> davidbarth: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/456412
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 456412 in netbook-launcher "title of saved web favorite contains unescaped characters" [Low,Triaged]
<davidbarth> 1 n-osd crasher that we're trying to reproduce; seems rather specific to emesene though
<lool> davidbarth: I think this one should be on your radar as well
<davidbarth> lool: hmm, for the release or an SRU?
<lool> davidbarth: Either is fine; release is preferred but it's ok
<davidbarth> a rhyhtmbox issue due to n-osd
<lool> I'm sorry, I failed pinging you directly on this bug
<davidbarth> lool: if you take the patch before the release, we can rush this one in; we'll see with neil or jason
<lool> (It's just ugly)
<lool> (Not breaking anything)
<davidbarth> lool: i'm more concerned about the keyring issue
<lool> Well that one seems intrusive to fix
<davidbarth> and a n-osd font problem for people using fractional fonts (ie 9.4, instead of just 10pt)
<lool> So even if it's an usability issue, I think the test might have to be deferred if it is intrusive
<lool> s/test/fix/
<davidbarth> lool: the point is that i'm not sure who's looking at it now
<davidbarth> lool: it falls right in the middle of unr, desktop, etc.
<lool> Hmm
<lool> In my eyes, netbook-launcher + UNR's window picker applet are responsible for hiding/showing windows as they appear/disappear, even if metacity is involved
<lool> So it would seem logical that they review the state of open windows on startup
<davidbarth> so i guess my point now is asking the desktop team which patches they still want to take for the release, between the 3 n-osd and a potential one for xsplash; see http://tinyurl.com/ylhxuzy
<lool> At least I think that's what I proposed on the bug; if it's not possible or a bad idea, could you comment on the issues with the approach in the bug?
<davidbarth> and how to manage the unr one, which has impacts outside of unr itself
<davidbarth> pitti, slangasek, lool?
<pitti> davidbarth: if they are tiny and 100% safe, I'm fine with slipping them in
<slangasek> which one is "the UNR one"?
<lool> Oh I failed to comment on the bug too, I only chatted with njpatel on IRC tss I suck
<lool> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/netbook-launcher/+bug/447886
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 447886 in netbook-launcher "On startup Gnome Keyring asks for password in the background" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<davidbarth> yep
<davidbarth> it's a nasty usability issue, basically, you boot unr for the first time and you can't really connect to the network!
<lool> I think something like "for all open windows, put window on top" at the end of the netbook-launcher startup sequence would do the trick, but again I'm fine deferring that as a SRU
<pitti> that seems worth fixing in final
<lool> I think libwnck can help with this
<slangasek> yes, if it can be corrected in a targeted manner in netbook-launcher, I think it would be best to have that in final
<lool> I've updated milestone
<davidbarth> ok, so we're saying: try hard to fix this one, as a workaround specific to netbook-launcher; using tricks we see fit to bring the keyring window on the top
<lool> davidbarth: I think it's really not a workaround to do what I suggest: if netbook-launcher crashes and is respawned, the same issue will happen I bet
<lool> And you can't use root window tricks since it's a complex set of windows, not just a single x window
<slangasek> none of the others seem quite as bad for usability impact; I think we would take targeted fixes for them on Monday if available, but if not they all seem like reasonable SRU candidates
<davidbarth> lool: can we see that offline after the meeting?
<lool> davidbarth: Sure
<davidbarth> slangasek: ok
<slangasek> hmm, the xsplash one doesn't seem critical to me and probably not something we want to SRU for
<slangasek> bug #435692
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 435692 in xsplash "Wait for user icons and wallpaper before fading out" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/435692
<lool> I agree; it's just not perfectly pretty
<slangasek> I realize it's aesthetically displeasing, but the timeout code has caused us enough problems already for one release cycle
<slangasek> and I would prefer not to try to change it at the very end
<pitti> and for slower machines it's ugly either way
<slangasek> davidbarth: do you agree?
<davidbarth> slangasek: i agree it's tricky to move now
<slangasek> so you're ok with leaving that until lucid?
<davidbarth> slangasek: moving it as a tentative sru though, or as an indenpendant ppa
<slangasek> ok
<pitti> doesn't really sound like SRU matter either IMHO
<slangasek> pitti: tend to agree, but figure we can discuss that when the fix is available; PPA is obviously ok :)
<slangasek> anything else on the DX front?
<davidbarth> nope, that's it
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Mobile Team
<lool> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
<lool> Overview of overall status (more details since we're close to release):
<lool> * UNR: good shape
<lool>   * wubi needs image rerolling + testing; davmor2 offered help, StevenK is looking for a license key
<lool> * general armel stuff
<lool>   * toolchain related rebuilds have been pushed
<lool> * armel+mx51: ok
<lool>   * Babbage 2.0 is in a bad shape for both Jamie and I, but my hardware is very unstable; could either be hardware breakage and/or kernel/bootloader regressions   :-/   We need to dig up what's happening here but we suspect the kernel mxcfb changes regressed our graphics
<MootBot> New Topic:  Mobile Team
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
<lool> * armel+dove: ok
<lool>   * Need to cleanup installation instructions
<lool>   * Installation is very slow
<lool> * Ubuntu Moblin Remix: ok
<slangasek> for wubi you're referring only to a UNR image reroll, right?
<lool>   * APT error is really fixed
<lool>   * would like to fix mutter crash
<lool> Yes
<lool> That said, I pushed sources which are in all images
<slangasek> (for the bug we've already discussed - ok, good)
<lool> Like apt
<lool> (For the toolchain rebuilds)
<slangasek> mutter> I guess that's best effort; bug is listed as confirmed yet, do you think this will be fixed on Monday?
<lool> slangasek: I was hoping for today
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> no other questions from me; anyone else?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Server Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server Team
<slangasek> ttx: hi
<ttx> slangasek: o/
<ttx> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus was updated
<ttx> The key remaining issue is bug 458850, which is a consequence of eucalyptus not acting like EC2 about ephemeral disks
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 458850 in ec2-init "UEC images do not mount ephemeral disk on /mnt at boot" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/458850
<ttx> We confirmed with EC2 community that this was a feature they are usually relying on
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
<ttx> So we would like to fix that in our images themselves. That should just affect the cloud images, not the server ISO
<ttx> we would also fix bug 458576 in the same run
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 458576 in ec2-init "ec2: ssh public key fingerprint in console output does not match EC2 standards" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/458576
<ttx> this last one is really low-risk. The first one... that depends on how smoser fixes it exactly
<slangasek> latter sounds ok, sure
<slangasek> will have to wait and see the fix for the former
<ttx> slangasek: exactly
<ttx> we expect to be affected by the maven overhaul, since it toucjhes libraries used in server packages
<ttx> bug 454822
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 454822 in qdox "package merges in main, required for the maven2 build" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/454822
<slangasek> ttx: do you know how close we are to being done with maven?  I haven't been able to track it, every time I look there's yet another bug report somewhere about it
<ScottK> I think we are getting close
<slangasek> how close?
<pitti> I keep playing whack-a-rat with NEW and syncs
<pitti> maven2 built now \o/
<ttx> slangasek: doko reported maven2 building now
<ScottK> That close
<pitti> doko_ says some plugins are still missing
 * pitti hugs doko_ for his great efforts on this
<doko_> maven2 itself is built, will be published within a few minutes
<slangasek> the wiki page mentions commons-beanutils and backport-util-concurrent - are those still needed?
<ttx> slangasek: those were updated already
<ScottK> I think they are done.
<ttx> slangasek: those were the ones affecting eucalyptus
<slangasek> ok, but they're already done?
<ttx> doko_: you expect a tomcat6 update now ?
<doko_> slangasek: yes
<ttx> tomcat6 is on the server CD, so...
<slangasek> doko_: so are we completely done with maven2 package updates in main for karmic?  the missing plugins are optional, I hope?
<ScottK> Also potentially affecting the server CD ... I'm planning to cherrypick the Debian clamav repo over the weekend (I was expecting an upload in Debian that hasn't materialize) that close out a number of clamav packaging bugs and then next week I'll push clamav 0.95.3 to -proposed.
<doko_> ttx: yes, but not now. needed for maven-site-plugin and maven-debian-helper. we should include this if possible. http://people.canonical.com/~doko/tmp/ has my current tomcat6 merge
<doko_> slangasek: no, libservlet2.5-api-java needs the POM as well, see the current merge above, I still have to test that
<ttx> doko_: I'll review it
<ttx> (not now)
<slangasek> doko_: why is libservlet2.5-api-java needed?
<slangasek> ScottK: clamav> ack
<doko_> slangasek: b-d for maven-site-plugin
<slangasek> and why would we not just tell people "sorry, this bit didn't make it"?
<doko_> and libmaven-site-plugin-java is needed for maven-debian-helper
<ttx> (sigh)
<pitti> the maven OS
<doko_> slangasek: well, the source package is in, and if ttx can review it ...
<doko_> I'll work on that tomorrow
<ttx> I'll do my best
<doko_> have to leave now, sorry
<slangasek> doko_: that still doesn't answer the question of why we want to fiddle with a package on the server CD the week of release to get this universe package working
<slangasek> I guess we'll discuss that out-of-band, since doko has to go
<slangasek> anything else for server?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Kernel Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Team
<slangasek> pgraner, apw: about?
<pgraner> slangasek: yep, sorry we are sprinting today
<slangasek> pgraner: no worries; one way or another I want to touch base with you on the two bugs I've posted to the wiki, do you have time for that right now?
<pgraner> slangasek: sure
 * pgraner looks
<slangasek> bug #453579
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 453579 in linux "corruption of large files reported with linux 2.6.31-14.46 on ext4" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/453579
<slangasek> bug #459022
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 459022 in linux-meta-mvl-dove "still builds -z0 metapackages which are uninstallable and should be dropped" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/459022
<slangasek> the first one was Keybuk's "ext4 is making swiss cheese of my ISO downloads" bug
<slangasek> I would appreciate it if the kernel team could follow through and see whether this is reproducible at all
<Keybuk> slangasek: I've just updated my desktop to karmic with a reinstall to get proper ext4
<slangasek> (if not reproducible, triage it away - if it is reproducible, we need to figure out where the bug is)
<Keybuk> and replacement laptop hard drive has arrived, and being installed right now
<Keybuk> so if I can reproduce it, I'll let you know
<slangasek> Keybuk: ok, thanks
<Keybuk> I'm still not 100% sure it's not the dodgy pre-production SSD in that other laptop
<apw> Keybuk, if you could that would help a lot
<Keybuk> the only reason I filed it was other people were reporting the corrupt deb thing
<Keybuk> kernel team have access to the same dodgy pre-production SSDs though - so they could test
<apw> Keybuk,which model is it
<Keybuk> apw: am I allowed to say? :p
<apw> Keybuk, tell me offline in case
<Keybuk> the ones we were given at the last UDS
<pgraner> Keybuk: thats NDA
<slangasek> Keybuk: yes, dodgy hardware is a possibility - but we should be aggressive about trying to reproduce this (incl. on other hardware) so we're sure it's ok to turf this for release
<pgraner> slangasek: ack, we will get back to you shortly, we are all here so we can quickly sort it, hopefully
<slangasek> thanks
<pgraner> slangasek: and the metapkg bug we will fix right now
<slangasek> pgraner: great, thanks!
<slangasek> that's it from me - any concerns on your side?
<pgraner> slangasek: nope we are holding with what we got
<slangasek> how big's the queue for the day-zero kernel SRU drop? :)
<pgraner> slangasek: we have 3 or 4 patches pending but they are minor.
<slangasek> ok
<pgraner> slangasek: to answer no we are not doing a day zero
<slangasek> sounds good; will let you get back to sprinting then :)
<pitti> pgraner: would bug 77010 fit there? (config chagne only)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 77010 in hundredpapercuts "Overuse of system beep without volume control" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/77010
<pitti> pgraner: ^ disables CONFIG_HDA_BEEP thing
<slangasek> pitti: not a blocker for final, can be discussed out of band, I think?
<pgraner> pitti: I'll have apw look at it
<pitti> right, for SRU
<pgraner> slangasek: yep\
<pitti> ok,s orry
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Security Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security Team
<slangasek> jdstrand: hi, anything to say release-wise?
<jdstrand> o/
<slangasek> (AFAIK your RC buglist is empty now)
<jdstrand> as always https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus
<jdstrand> there is one bug: bug #457716
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 457716 in libvirt "apparmor denies save and restore" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/457716
<jdstrand> oh, someone accepted it! :)
<slangasek> fixed already ;)
<jdstrand> there are no bugs
<slangasek> ok, great :)
<jdstrand> ;)
<jdstrand> well, no *RC* bugs
 * slangasek nods
<pitti> jdstrand: just reviewed it, and seemed fine (pinpointed fix)
<jdstrand> I am not claiming anything is bug-free
<slangasek> heh
<slangasek> any questions for security, then?
<jdstrand> other than that, I don't have anything. all the pending stuff has been addressed
<jdstrand> pitti: thanks!
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Foundations Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations Team
<slangasek> Keybuk: are you still covering today, or is cjwatson around now?
<Keybuk> cjwatson is today
<slangasek> cjwatson: ping
<slangasek> ok, will follow up out of band I guess
<slangasek> Keybuk: anything we should talk about wrt mountall/usplash?
<slangasek> or bug #432089?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 432089 in sreadahead "performs poorly on slow HDD" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/432089
<Keybuk> mountall has a bug that affects a couple of cases (most notable elmo)
<Keybuk> I believe ion has fixed that, and I just need to upload once I'm fully back online
<Keybuk> usplash has a "not pretty" bug wrt CLEAR, which ion has also fixed
<Keybuk> the sreadahead problem isn't simple
<Keybuk> I have a possible solution, but you won't like it ;D
<cjwatson> urg, sorry, I started late today and my times are completely shot
<cjwatson> (didn't get back from NI until lunchtime)
<slangasek> Keybuk: heh, let's discuss that after the meeting then so the others don't have to listen to the yelling ;)
<cjwatson> there's a bug with RAID and virtio that I think needs to be fixed in grub2, bug 457687
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 457687 in grub2 "error: Running 'grub-install --no-floppy "/dev/md0"' failed." [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/457687
<cjwatson> working on that at the moment
<cjwatson> and apparently root on iSCSI is busted somehow
<cjwatson> bug 457767
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 457767 in debian-installer "karmic: iSCSI root: boot hangs on starting iscsid" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/457767
<cjwatson> I'm on the former, but if somebody serverish could pick up the latter, I'd greatly appreciate it
<slangasek> ttx: do you have someone who can look at 457767?
<slangasek> cjwatson: can you target/milestone both bugs?
<cjwatson> yep
<ttx> slangasek: hmm
<ttx> slangasek: maybe Dustin, he used to work on that before iSCSI support was taken by Foundations
<slangasek> [ACTION] kirkland to follow up on bug #457767
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kirkland to follow up on bug #457767
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 457767 in debian-installer "karmic: iSCSI root: boot hangs on starting iscsid" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/457767
<cjwatson> I know it's our responsibility, just takes a while for somebody new to set it up, and I don't think I have personal bandwidth :-/
 * cjwatson will owe somebody a favour
<slangasek> Keybuk: when are you "fully back online", btw?
<Keybuk> slangasek: when the apt run finishes and I reboot after ;)
<pitti_> meh, server just broke apparently
<slangasek> ok
<Keybuk> (rsync is beating apt atm)
<slangasek> I think that's all I have on foundations
<slangasek> anything else?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] MOTU
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU
<slangasek> ScottK: still going strong on the bugfixes?
<ScottK> Maven was my exciting topic and we covered that already.
<slangasek> hehe
<ScottK> For a small value of strong, sure.
<ScottK> There's stuff coming in, but it's not a torrent.
 * slangasek nods
<ScottK> I think we are pretty well into "It is what it is" territory
<ScottK> The Kaffe removal (which motu-release has now ack'ed) needs to get done.
<ScottK> That's just a stack of sync's and a removal, so shouldn't be a big deal.
<slangasek> right
<ScottK> Uninstallable packages is much lower than Jaunty.
<ScottK> So the FTBFS count is the major worry ATM.
<ScottK> I think we ought to revisit how we deal with this stuff at UDS.
<slangasek> sounds reasonable
<ScottK> That's all I have.
<slangasek> ok, thanks
<slangasek> any other questions for MOTU?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<slangasek> anything else we need to talk about, or is everybody clear on their marching orders? :)
<slangasek> candidate ISO rolls will start as soon as the queue looks quiesced Monday morning (UTC)
<ScottK> As a general note, I'd like to mention that in this cycle it's seemed to me that Kubuntu got a lot more support from people outside the Kubuntu team and it's much appreciated.
<slangasek> great to hear
<marjo> ScottK: i second that
<pitti_> slangasek: langpacks finished to build; I'll test them now
<slangasek> pitti_: ok
<pitti_> slangasek: shall I upload them when I'm happy with them, so that they can build over the weekend?
<slangasek> pitti_: yes, please
<slangasek> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:32.
<slangasek> ok, let's go get that bug list down to zero :)
<pitti_> yay
<lool> thanks
 * lool &
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-10-24
<doltek> Hey can anybody help me mount my blackberry please?
<st33med> Wrong place doltek
<st33med> #ubuntu-beginners-help
<ogra> or #ubuntu
<st33med> :X
<st33med> ogra, bad
<ogra> the propsed support channel though
<doltek> Thanks guys, sorry
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-10-25
<scotty^> test
<scotty^> Well I missed todays Ubuntu gaming meeting.  Can anyone inform me on the major topics/points of discussion.
<scotty^> ?
<scotty^> hmm
<scotty^> anyone alive?
<joaopinto> scotty^, no
<scotty^> quit
<TeslaUkraine> meep
<tesla> so... is it Ubuntu Gaming Team Meeting time?
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-10-25
 * persia-uds has infrastructural issues, so is using an alternate nick
 * persia-uds wonders if we're quorate
 * micahg was wondering if there was a meeting (The bot doesn't seem to know about it :))
<stgraber> I don't think we do yet ;) cjwatson is arriving soon, then we just need someone else
<persia-uds> The bot hasn't reliably known about meetings for the past couple years
<cjwatson> hi, here now
<cjwatson> persia-uds,stgraber: where are you two physically?
<persia-uds> OK, that's three.
<persia-uds> cjwatson, Sierra D
<cjwatson> huh, thought I'd looked in there.  on my way
<persia-uds> So we need Cody :(
<cjwatson> so.  we seem to be inquorate right now.  OTOH, Cody and Soren are both at UDS and should be around at some point, and micahg is the only applicant and is also at UDS
<cjwatson> so I suggest that we do something ad-hoc once we get everybody in place and awake?
<cjwatson> today or later this week
<UndiFineD> waiting for sierra icecast ...
<cjwatson> I doubt you'll get one until 9am lcal
<cjwatson> local
<persia-uds> UndiFineD, Not likely to be up for an hour
<UndiFineD> but it is not even listed like some other rooms on http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/status.xsl
<cjwatson> this is the plenary room, so it may be weird
<cjwatson> hm, none of curacao is there either
<UndiFineD> exactly
<UndiFineD> can you poke some people to it
<cjwatson> sierra isn't listed on summit.ubuntu.com as in use
<cjwatson> so I'm not sure it's needed
<UndiFineD> weÄºl me the keynote
<cjwatson> we just grabbed this room because we weren't disturbing anyone here
<cjwatson> ah yeah
<cjwatson> I'll poke a sysadmin
<UndiFineD> thanks
<cjwatson> we'll adjourn the DMB meeting 'til later
<cjwatson> UndiFineD: sysadmins tell me it's going to be video-streamed, though I don't have the details
<cjwatson> if I find something out before 9am local then I'll let you know
<UndiFineD> hopefully it is: http://video.ubuntu.com/live then
<UndiFineD> can you find out about gobby too ?
<UndiFineD> it is not available
<UndiFineD> cjwatson, we found that it is not running on 6522 but 6523 and the TLS is acting up
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-10-28
<hooke> where to check the UTC time for my timezone
<Sarajevo> I wanna meet some hot ubuntu chicks
<czajkowski> Sarajevo: not appropiate
<UndiFineD> czajkowski, getting used to the time displacement ?
<czajkowski> yup
<czajkowski> grand
<czajkowski> thanks
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-10-30
<smalls2> Is anyone here well versed with iptables? I'm trying to figure out in ubuntu 10.10 how to set my iptables LOG to another file (ie: /var/log/iptables.log)
<bazhang> smalls2, #ubuntu for support please
<smalls2> alright, ill visit. whats this one for? =)
<bazhang> meetings :)
<smalls2> About ubuntu I assume, but with what objectives?
<bazhang> smalls2, fridge.ubuntu.com lists a lot of them
<bazhang> a very long list of stuff actually; membership, changes in development, and on and on
<smalls2> So for developmental stuff
<bazhang> partly. but fridge lists it more fully
<smalls2> alrighty. well, thank you.
<bazhang> welcome
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-10-31
<elkybirthday> ooher, I get to attend one of these meetings
<Pici> Yay.  Meetings.
<topyli> elkybirthday: ooh is that nick current? congratulations :)
<Pici> elkybirthday: Happy bday!
<elkybirthday> :D
 * Seeker` provides cake
<elkybirthday> depends which timezone you ask, but the one my body is in, it is indeed current
<elkybirthday> om nom nom
<topyli> ok, least resistant chairing
<topyli> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 13:05. The chair is topyli.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<Pici> Although my -ot support policy item is first on the list, I propose defering it until some of the more pressing issues are attended do.
<Pici> s/do/to/
<Pici> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
<topyli> ok Pici, good idea
<nhandler> o/
<bilalakhtar> Is this the IRCC meeting?
<nhandler> Yes bilalakhtar
<topyli> bilalakhtar: yes
<topyli> [TOPIC] Failure to document blanket ban policy
<MootBot> New Topic:  Failure to document blanket ban policy
<topyli> ikonia: you around?
<topyli> let's group this and the next one
<ikonia> I am
<ikonia> sounds reasonable
<ikonia> they are the same thing
<ikonia> I just wanted to be clear there are two actions here
<Pici> Indeed.
<ikonia> topyli: do you want me to just talk, or do you want to start ?
<Pici> ikonia: Do you want to summarize for those present who may not be familiar with the issue?
<ikonia> certainly
<ikonia> There is an "appeals" process for users who are banned/miss-treated from the Ubuntu IRC name space, I have raised the issue that there needs to be the reverse of this for long term trouble users. This was agreed should happen, it has not been documented, or implemented on the requested trouble users
<ikonia> the reverse should include a blanket ban from the ubuntu IRC council controlled ubuntu name sapce
<ikonia> space
<ikonia> (sorry should have been clear about that, hence blanket ban policy)
<topyli> this is true, we are in talks with staff but we are/i am slow
<nhandler> ikonia: We are currently working with freenode staff to find a way to effectively implement and enforce this
<ikonia> nhandler: I thought it was as simple as putting a ban in all the channels controlled ?
<Seeker`> ikonia: how long ago did you raise the issue?
<elkybirthday> can we not do it manually until then?
<Pici> ikonia: We control a lot of channels.
<nhandler> ikonia: Not really, since IP addresses change (and they use proxies)
<ikonia> Seeker`: approx 6 months ago but I can't be exact
<topyli> it is an old issue yes
<ikonia> nhandler: the main ones in the examples I raised do not change
<tsimpson> it's also difficult to enforce if we do it manually, we can't watch each join in all the channels, so it's possible they'd still slip in
<ikonia> ok - so lets move from the implementation for a while, where is the documetned process and critera that was discussed about
<Seeker`> so either we implement a complete ban or none at all?
<Seeker`> thats stupid
<elkybirthday> I'd like to point out that in the mean time, ikonia is getting targetted for harrassment from one of the individuals, in a manner that * is* disrupting various channels
<nhandler> ikonia: That will partially depend on what freenode staff end up deciding wrt this issue
<Pici> Would it be amenable to allow operators to manually place the bans if the target joined a channel, but before they acted in a manner that would get them banned in normal circumstances.
<ikonia> nhandler: why are freenode staff controlling the critera for the process ?
<Pici> Like 'ban on sight'?
<elkybirthday> the individual is feeling enabled by the council's lack of action or response or anything public really
<ikonia> Pici: totally
<ikonia> Pici: the point is to document and recognise that user is not allowed in the ubuntu name space
<ikonia> Pici: how we act to that is seconady
<ikonia> secondary
<nhandler> ikonia: Because it is ugly setting bans in all #ubuntu-* channels and enforcing them, and we are trying to find a better way to handle that
<ikonia> nhandler: ok, that doesn't change the processof applying for the ban, or the critera
<elkybirthday> nhandler, can we not deal with the social side in the interim at least?
<ikonia> why has that not been documented ?
<Pici> Perhaps we should action and document that while we find a way to work with freenode.
<ikonia> Pici: I thought that action had already been taken
<ikonia> the reverse of the appeals process, and the critera must be met before applying
<Pici> ikonia: I don't see it documented.
<ikonia> it's not
<ikonia> it was an action the council agreed to do
<topyli> we agreed on it, but we never documented it
<Seeker`> why not?
<ikonia> the documenting was part of the agreement
<topyli> yes
<Seeker`> This is starting to verge on the next topic too
<elkybirthday> yeah
 * nhandler notes that there is nothing stopping people not on the council from helping with some of these tasks
<ikonia> nhandler: actually there is
<ikonia> nhandler: I offered to do it, but was told it was not acceptable as the council had to set the critera
<Pici> Hm.
<elkybirthday> sure there is. we can't decree non grata status on someone on behalf of the council. that's what's being requested. we cannot do that. only ircc can do that
<nhandler> ikonia: No. Anyone in the community is capable of proposing a draft for the council to approve
<tsimpson> as long as the council approves it, I see no issue
<ikonia> nhandler: that was a different discussion I had then
<ikonia> nhandler: I was told it was not appropriate for me to do it as the council had to set the policy, and I can't do that
<Pici> But it is our fault for not correcting that information that you were provided with.
<Seeker`> ultimately, someone on the council will have to do something with any documents generated, and that seems to be the part that is failing
<nhandler> ikonia: Yeah, we'll have to ultimately ACK the content of such a document, but who actually writes it up is irrelevant imo
<Pici> I'm not sure when that happened, but we have had a few documents drafted by our operators in the past that we're working to bring into policy.
<elkybirthday> I rather suspect that ikonia basically wrote the policy in his emails
<topyli> it could be transferred to wiki and we could accept it rather easily
<Seeker`> do it then?
<Pici> Would you like me to do that?
<ikonia> elkybirthday: it was spelt out quite clear in the emails
<elkybirthday> ikonia, im aware of what your emails are like :)
<nhandler> Pici: If you are up for it, I doubt there will be any objections
<topyli> Pici: yes, with ikonia's help
<ikonia> just tell me what you need
<ikonia> I've pushed this multiple times on email and either got no response or being told "it's been worked on"
<Pici> [action] Pici to document ikonia's namespace ban proposal.
<ikonia> the correct reponse is "can you help with $X" if you need help/input
<Pici> Er, or does the chair need to do that?
<topyli> [ACTION] Pici to document ikonia's namespace ban proposal.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Pici to document ikonia's namespace ban proposal.
<Pici> topyli: thanjs.
<topyli> apparently
<elkybirthday> Pici, yeah, otherwise anyone can set actions
<Pici> ikonia: Let me read over the email you sent and I'll let you know what else I need.
<topyli> [TOPIC] Failure to respond / follow up on pending actions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Failure to respond / follow up on pending actions
<ikonia> Pici: just shout/mail
<topyli> is this the same issue or another one? :)
<Pici> What do you want us to say about this?
<ikonia> do you want an overview again ?
<Pici> I don't think we need an overview, unless someone else thinks we do.
<Seeker`> isn't this one kinda obvious?
<nhandler> I think the big issue is that we are simply not delegating enough
<nhandler> We are trying to handle too many things at once, and we are only 5 people
<ikonia> I personally have raised multiple issues with the IRC council, I'm also aware of other operators doing the same, the lack of response or time to implimenting these requests is beyond crazy
<Seeker`> nhandler: It actually just seems like the council isn't do anything they say they will
<ikonia> nhandler: what is the blocker ?
<ikonia> nhandler: responding to an email to at least acknowledge it's been read isn't a massive task, unless you ar getting 100+ requests per week
<Pici> I think we're all to blame.
<Pici> Er, I mean the IRCC members.
<elkybirthday> does the ircc need to be expanded?
<Seeker`> just how much work does the ircc have each week that 5 people can't get it done?
<nhandler> elkybirthday: Well, part of the issue is that due to real life issues, we only had a partial council for a period of time
<topyli> i don't think the council needs to be bigger, we've been a bit unfortunate lately
<ikonia> topyli: define latley for perspective please
<topyli> a few months or so
<topyli> everybody's back now though
<elkybirthday> nhandler, that should have been said before now so it could be fixed
<ikonia> k
<ikonia> ok
<Pici> I could come up with excuses, but I'd rather just have us get back on the horse and get to resolving everyone's problems.
<ikonia> Pici: agreed
<topyli> aye
<Seeker`> surely if that is **that** much work to do and someone isn't going to be around for a while, replace them?
<ikonia> Pici: people have things to deal with, no question, but an email to explain why it's not happenening or just a response to say, we got it, thanks, is all that is needed
<nhandler> What we should probably do is go through what remaining actions we have and try and give a few of them to members of the OP team.
<Pici> If its appropriate of course.
<topyli> indeed, we should at least reply always. we (at least i) should also review our task list more often
<ikonia> council, that last issue was more a heads up/ shake up, nothing needs to happen beyond as pici said, getting back on the hourse
<ikonia> horse
<topyli> ikonia: the overviews?
<Pici> ikonia: We do have our team reports, but as I discussed at our IRC session at UDS, we will be working to provide more detail in them.
<ikonia> topyli: the failure to respond / follow up on pending items
<Pici> Oh
<Pici> Sorry, I thought you were talking about the next items.
<ikonia> I'll summarise the next two points quikely as they are the same
<topyli> ok
<topyli> let me open it
<elkybirthday> one thing i tried to get set up whilst I was n the ircc is a request tracker. because we're not email people and we already work on an issue-based workflow with the bantracker
<topyli> [topic] high level council overviews
<MootBot> New Topic:  high level council overviews
<ikonia> I hear a massive amount of talk about great things happening, yet based on the points I raised earlier, I see none of it. I don't see the council doing anything activly for the community or the ops team beyond creating red tape
<Pici> ikonia: We do have our team reports, but as I discussed at our IRC session at UDS, we will be working to provide more detail in them.
<ikonia> if you are doing something that benifits either of the groups mentioned, I'd like to hear about it
<topyli> elkybirthday: i would love to have bugs on launchpad
<Seeker`> the IRCC team reports aren't linked from the IRCC wiki page, afaics
<Pici> Seeker`: They should be...
<ikonia> Pici: up until now, I see nothing, so going forward reports are great, but I want to know what's happened in the year this council has been together
<ikonia> I see notyhing
<nhandler> Seeker`: They are linked from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
<tsimpson> Seeker`: only from the meeting agenda page
<ikonia> I see nothing
<elkybirthday> topyli, im not sure LP bugs is a suitible place, to be honest. the IS team in canonical don't use it, they have an rt instance
<nhandler> We have done stuff. For instance, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Membership is the most recent thing we have been up to (currently a draft)
<ikonia> nhandler: a draft document, anything else ?
<Pici> I've brought this up a few times, but we're going to be making more of an effort to document our day-to-day stuff.
<nhandler> ikonia: It is waiting on CC approval
<ikonia> nhandler: anything else/
<Seeker`> where can the team reports be found?
<Seeker`> oh, there
<nhandler> Seeker`: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRCCouncil/TeamReport
<ikonia> I'm just looking for one thing the council has done in a year
<ikonia> it shouldn't be that hard
<ikonia> or whats the big achievement, something you feel is a real benifit
<Seeker`> see the lnik elky posted in -ops a while ago? about docs being placed "on display" in a basement with no lights, no stairs, in a locked filing cabinate, stuck in a disused lavatory, with a sign on the door saying "Beware of the Leopard"?
<nhandler> ikonia: We created a Charter
<ikonia> nhandler: poor
<ikonia> ok - I think I'm happy with that topic, I think I get a feel for what's been achieved in a year
<nhandler> ikonia: Not really. We have a policy for bots to be in the channel. We've recruited new ops
<Seeker`> so, in a year you have created a charter. How about something to make operators lives easier?
<ikonia> nhandler: stuff that happened beefore
<ikonia> nhandler: but without as much lip service and more common sense
<topyli> i'm not keen on shaking up things just to be able to say we changed stuff
<ikonia> but I get the drift of what's been achieved I think, so I'm happy to move on
<Seeker`> btw, recruiting more ops isn't an achievement, it is something that should be actively going on all the time
<Seeker`> as people leave / aren't around as much, they should be replaced
<ikonia> Seeker`: yes, but there is now a joke of a process to go through
<elkybirthday> Seeker`, agreed
<Pici> The process was new.
<Pici> And we've learned our lessons from it.
<topyli> what makes it a joke?
<ikonia> yes, and pointless lip service
<ikonia> but that's just my opinion
<ikonia> topyli: we'll discuss that at another meeting, lets get through the issues
<elkybirthday> topyli, is rww on the team yet?
<topyli> elkybirthday: nope
<elkybirthday> there's an example of the joke
<elkybirthday> you have willing people who you're failing to convert
<Seeker`> where is the operator recruitment process linked from on the wiki?
<topyli> rww's access is not what we're here for right now
<ikonia> lets move on
<ikonia> get throughthe issues
<topyli> good idea
<Seeker`> where is the operator recruitment process linked from on the wiki?
<ikonia> Seeker`: it's there I'll dig it out
<ikonia> it's also in a factoid
<topyli> [topic] Discussion about approved/non-approved shell hosts access to Ubuntu channels (revisit)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Discussion about approved/non-approved shell hosts access to Ubuntu channels (revisit)
<topyli> this is important. ikonia, still have steam to summarize this one? :)
<ikonia> there are a number of shell providers with no active or usable usage policy, known users have been a problem on these shell hosts, I have raised an issue a long time ago in an email to the council saying which shell hosts needed to be banned in the same way as using the floodbots
<ikonia> this is a long standing issue with the council that I have raised and chaied
<ikonia> I have taken the action myself in #ubuntu #kubuntu #ubuntu-offtopic where the problem was most visible
<ikonia> I did this due to lack of reponse from the council (approx 6 months)
<ikonia> if the council wish me to undo this, they need to say so
<topyli> there are shells with a pronounced policy of no policy on their users, i support your action
<Pici> I think this is just a matter of documenting and sactioning the bans.
<ikonia> I would agree, and I'm happy to put that up on the wiki as known blocked shells
<ikonia> I've not done this again due to lack of feedback on my actions from the council
<nhandler> Getting anything changed in the floodbots would require talking to ljl
<ikonia> agreed, however as I stated in the mail, they are just forwaded to -ops until it is agreed
<nhandler> Are the details of the current handling of webchat users on the wiki anywhere?
<ikonia> I have been explaining to the efffected users manually in -ops to complain to their shell providers to get a usage policy
<Pici> nhandler: I have an action item from UDS to work with LjL and rww to document the floodbots.
<ikonia> nhandler: as it's recently changed I doubt it
<nhandler> Well, having a page explaining "Why can't I get into #ubuntu" might be useful (and ties into both of those items)
<nhandler> It could talk about shells like this, the web gateway, being banned, using a proxy, etc
<ikonia> agreed, but I'm not writing that until I get a response from the council supporting the process
<topyli> Pici: so you can merge this in your existing action item?
<Pici> topyli: Which part?
<topyli> floodbots and shells
<nhandler> ikonia: Supporting the process of blocking an entire shell? Or for these particular shells?
<Pici> As much as I'd like to get everything handled, I don't want to be the only one taking items.
<ikonia> nhandler: more a case of if a shell host has a usage process that is not managed or not compatible with ubuntu's usage, then we block them
<ikonia> the ones I raised where an example and have been updated as we now have an excellent relationship with shellium
<Pici> I think a technical solution should be secondary to the documenting/sanctioning.
<ikonia> Pici: agreed but 6 months with no response, I acted
<nhandler> ikonia: I am fine with that. In general, I don't like unnecessarily broad bans like this, but if we determine the provider to be uncooperative and the shells are being abused, we have little choice (other than blocking all the individual users or exempting the good users)
<topyli> the technical solution is there, simple bans
<Pici> I mean the floodbots.
<ikonia> Pici: ah yes,
<ikonia> council, if I get a formal mail agreeing to my actions, I'll document it
<topyli> ikonia: i'll send mail and we'll fix it
<Pici> I have no problems with that.
<ikonia> I'll be happy to document it
 * Pici [actions] topyli 
<topyli> [action] topyli to send formal agreement to ikonia's shell fix
<MootBot> ACTION received:  topyli to send formal agreement to ikonia's shell fix
<topyli> Seeker`: i'm skipping your item unless you reformulate it so that we understand
<Seeker`> There is an ever increasing dependance on the IRCC to decide something before an operator action can be taken - decisions that can take 6-12 months to be made. There seem to be increasing levels of red tape to get anything done. I made a request several months ago that all operators be given +o, and was told that this was dependant on the definition of a "Core Op", which still hasn't been meaningfully described and enacted. For some reason, ther
<topyli> is this any different from ikonia's earlier items?
<Seeker`> no
<Seeker`> well
<topyli> ok
<Seeker`> ish
<topyli> moving on
<Seeker`> the specific thing I want to talk about now is the core ops
<Seeker`> why do we need "core ops" and "normal ops"?
<Seeker`> and why has it taken so long to define them
<topyli> i suggest we move that a bit further down, as we really need to get the ban list item now before people have to go
<nhandler> Seeker`: There was an email sent out about that asking for suggestions on how to define them. There were very few suggestions
<Seeker`> nhandler: that doesn't answer why we need them
<Pici> And I suspect that Jussi will want to be present for the core-ops discussion.
<Seeker`> Pici: well, its been on the agenda for 6 days
<Pici> As he and I both have strong feelings about it. (differing opinions I might add)
<elkybirthday> Seeker`, his flights have been booked longer
<topyli> i see nothing about core ops on the agenda
<ikonia> defer it if jussi is a core factor hee
<ikonia> here
<Pici> topyli: Well my re-org item was actually supposed to be about that...
<Pici> Sort of.
<topyli> ah ok
<topyli> however, let's get to the ban list issue
<topyli> [topic] Clearing the ban list
<MootBot> New Topic:  Clearing the ban list
<nhandler> I've been thinking about this for a while, just never added it to the agenda
<Pici> I propose going through the bans on the bantracker and removing all of them that do not have a comment.
<Pici> And removing all bans that don't have matches in the bantracker.
<nhandler> If we clear the ban lists, we will get some trolls (previously banned) who return. But would could easily re-ban them. However, this would also allow us to remove the hundreds of probably stale/old bans that are just sitting there
<elkybirthday> oh finally
<ikonia> Pici: I like pici's approach
<topyli> agreed, there is a lot of dead weight
<ikonia> give the ops 1 week to documentimportant bans
<ikonia> then anything that's not important kill
<ikonia> sorry my keyboard batteries appear to be dying
<Pici> ikonia: Right, we wouldn't do it without notice.
<ikonia> Pici: surprising but I'm backing it
<nhandler> Is there an easy way to get a list of of such bans Pici ?
<topyli> so an email to the mailing list, a week, clean?
<Pici> nhandler: Well I can pull down the bans database and query it for all bans that don't have a comment.
<Pici> nhandler: So, yes, it is rather easy to do.
<Pici> Does anyone have any objections?
<nhandler> Nope.
<topyli> not me
<ikonia> surprisingly not
<topyli> ikonia: :)
<Pici> Who wants to write it up?
<Pici> The email?
<topyli> i can do it, but i'll have to consult you over irc first :)
<nhandler> Pici: If you can get me a list of bans that would be affected, I can write up the email
<Pici> Or does this warrant having a vote/
<topyli> oh nhandler is probably more competent
<ikonia> don't list the bans
<ikonia> just tell everyone a week to document important bans
<ikonia> then clear down the rest
<Pici> I'll get a number of bans at least.
<Pici> the count, rather.
<nhandler> ikonia: The bans are all public already. I won't include them in the email, but I want to have it available for OPs who aren't sure which of their bans will be affected
<ikonia> thats why we have BT
<ikonia> each op log in, and sort your bans out
<ikonia> don't need lists sending around
<ikonia> better still remove the ones you know aren't important
<nhandler> ikonia: But the BT doesn't have an easy way to find bans without comments
<ikonia> no, but operators do, you search on your own bans and read them
<ikonia> send it out if you want though, just a suggestion
<nhandler> ikonia: I wasn't going to send the list of bans with the email, I just wanted to have it to give to individual OPs who ask me (as I'm sure some will) afterwards
<ikonia> that shouldn't be a requirement of sending out the email though
<nhandler> ikonia: It isn't
<ikonia> great,
<topyli> so mail. nhandler, you'll send it?
<nhandler> topyli: Yeah
<topyli> [action] nhandler to send mail about ban list clearing
<MootBot> ACTION received:  nhandler to send mail about ban list clearing
<topyli> we should be closing. any other items will have to be deferred
<topyli> anything really really quick?
<Seeker`> I want a meeting scheduled before the next IRCC meeting to discuss the core op issue
<Seeker`> I'm pretty sure it was said in the UDS IRCC discussion that it could be brought up today
<ikonia> +1
<ikonia> this core ops stuff has gone on way too long
<topyli> please try and schedule one then, we probably can't do it now
<nhandler> The next IRC Meeting is in 2 weeks on the 13th otherwise
<topyli> [endmeeting]
<topyli> gah
<Seeker`> a week today?
<topyli> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 14:09.
<Seeker`> same time?
<topyli> two weeks
<topyli> oh, the extra meeting, sorry
<Seeker`> no, that was my suggestion for the core-op meeting
 * nhandler might not be around that day (possible LoCo event)
<Seeker`> well, if it has to wait until all the ircc memebers are around, it will never get discussed
<Seeker`> or is that one of the problems that is causing the IRCC to be so slow about everything?
<elkybirthday> i suspect it's not helping
<Seeker`> Can enough ircc members attend a meeting a week today, at 1800 UTC, to make the meeting quorate?
<elkybirthday> *chirp*
<Pici> Seeker`: I'll let you know.
<Pici> Seeker`: I personally should be free.
 * Pici has no life
<Seeker`> mmm, well I've just wasted an hour and a quarter of mine waiting for the issue I want to be discussed to be passed over
<Pici> There were a number of items that were not discussed.
<Seeker`> there were 3 things, two referring to the same thing
<Pici> Given unlimited time and everyone present we would have covered them, but we don't have that luxury.
<Seeker`> is there ever an occasion when everyone is present?
<Pici> Yes.
<Pici> I want to get this worked out also, hence my item on the agenda.
<elkybirthday> lets move this continued discussion to -ops
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-10-24
<bao_> how to delete mysqmail
 * stgraber waves
<jbicha> hi
<stgraber> ok, let's see if we have quorum today ;)
<tumbleweed> o/
<stgraber> bdrung, cody-somerville, persia, Laney, micahg: ping
<micahg> o/
<bdrung> stgraber: pong
<stgraber> yeah! we have quorum :)
<stgraber> #startmeeting Ubuntu Developer Membership Board meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Oct 24 14:02:35 2011 UTC.  The chair is stgraber. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board meeting Meeting | Current topic:
 * bdrung thought thet the meeting would be at 19 UTC
<stgraber> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Review of previous action items
<stgraber> bdrung: wiki says 14UTC
<bdrung> stgraber: data corruption in my brain :)
<stgraber> #topic All members to review "social" application position statement
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board meeting Meeting | Current topic:  All members to review "social" application position statement
<stgraber> based on what I see on the mailing-list, I don't think anyone is against that statement
<stgraber> though only a limited number of DMB members answered that thread
<stgraber> http://paste.ubuntu.com/717853/ is the statement in question
<tumbleweed> I missed that, but it sounds good to me
<bdrung> i welcome it too.
<stgraber> Should we vote on making that official and then have it posted on the wiki so applicants are aware of it?
 * micahg is fine with the statement as well
<tumbleweed> I think so, yes
<stgraber> #vote Publish position statement on "social" application to the wiki
<meetingology> Please vote on: Publish position statement on "social" application to the wiki
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<bdrung> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdrung
<tumbleweed> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from tumbleweed
<micahg> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg
<stgraber> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Publish position statement on "social" application to the wiki
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<stgraber> #action stgraber to add the position statement on social application at the top of the agenda wiki page
<meetingology> ACTION: stgraber to add the position statement on social application at the top of the agenda wiki page
<stgraber> I think that's the best place to put it for now, may move somewhere else once we're sure everyone is aware of it ;)
<stgraber> as cody-somerville doesn't seem to be around, I'll keep his two action items in the agenda
<stgraber> #topic Continue discussion about our package set management workflows
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Continue discussion about our package set management workflows
<stgraber> we unfortunately didn't have much time at the last TB meeting to discuss this one
 * geser waves
<stgraber> so I'd suggest we just keep it in the agenda for our next meeting
<stgraber> #topic Do we need our own IRC Channel or is #ubuntu-devel enough?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Do we need our own IRC Channel or is #ubuntu-devel enough?
<stgraber> hey geser
<stgraber> micahg: your turn ;)
<micahg> ok, so there seems to be a lot of people wondering about what qualifies for Developer membership and/or questions about the process, I was wondering if we should have our own channel that's on the smaller side to answer these questions
<bdrung> micahg: where are these questions currently asked?
<geser> how many requests do you expect?
<micahg> all over the place (-motu, -devel, -release), sometimes nowhere
<geser> a central point for questions would be good
<micahg> it's the last part that hurts as then people guess and posit sometimes incorrectly
<bdrung> i think we could give it a try
<stgraber> I'd actually prefer people to send question to the DMB mailing list or to devel-permissions and in case they actually want real time discussion, ping one of us in #ubuntu-devel. I'm already in more than 40 IRC channels and can only closely monitor a limited subset of that (which #ubuntu-devel is part of)
<tumbleweed> yeah, I'm not looking to be part of more channels, and this is already welcome discussion on -motu / -devel
<tumbleweed> I don't think there'd currently be a lack of decent replies in either of those places
<bdrung> stgraber: a smaller channel would be easier to monitor
<stgraber> I agree that having a documented single point of contact would be good, I just don't think having yet another IRC channel is the right solution to that
<tumbleweed> isn't the bigger problem that people don't think to ask? or are too shy to (mind you, then they don't apply)
<micahg> yes, but having a place to hop into in ask certainly can make things easier especially when one's workflow for quick questions is already in IRC
<stgraber> bdrung: not really, I have similar low traffic channels (emea and arb) and I usually end up checking these once a week or so because I don't even remember they exist (wth is channel number 21 again?? :))
 * micahg rethinks his desire to switch to irssi :)
<bdrung> what about recommending one channel with a keyword for getting notified?
<stgraber> I'm also wondering if we shouldn't try to have people join #ubuntu-motu for that kind of question, this may help making people more aware of the social part of being a MOTU
<stgraber> and people in that channel usually know what to answer to these questions and most/all of us are also in that channel to answer specific questions
<tumbleweed> motu does tend to be more social & mentoring than universe-specific, yes. Although that's not obvious from teh name
<bdrung> motu application questions -> #ubuntu-motu and for the rest #ubuntu-devel?
<stgraber> I'm actually tempted to say, any upload permissions question => #ubuntu-motu but if you think it'd be a problem, we can probably split that between #ubuntu-devel and #ubuntu-motu
<micahg> can we get something like #ubuntu-dmb forwarded to #ubuntu-motu maybe? (a /topic update would be required as well)
<Laney> hi there
<Laney> sorry i'm late
 * micahg is ok with hijacking -motu for the purpose as long as it's clear to everyone
<tumbleweed> micahg: that works for me, and yes I think we should update the topic
<stgraber> micahg: I'm fine with that too
 * bdrung nods.
<stgraber> micahg: can I give you an action to update the topic, get the forward setup and update the wiki to point to the IRC channel?
<micahg> stgraber: sure
<Laney> what topic?
<tumbleweed> #ubuntu-motu
<Laney> to say what?
<geser> I'd prefer #ubuntu-devel as the point of contact as the persons writing the testimonials should be familiar enough with the process to answer many questions an applicant might have about the process (#ubuntu-more is more quiet this days and only a few core-devs hang there around)
<micahg> laney: we were discussing using #ubuntu-motu to field DMB questions so we don't have to have yet another IRC channel
<Laney> yeah, I know, I just don't know what you want to put in the topic
<Laney> I would just put it on the wiki page that either channel is fine
<micahg> geser: should be? yes, but historically (at least recent history), I don't think that's been the case
<geser> micahg: the amount of core-devs in #ubuntu-motu?
<micahg> geser: no, testimonial writers fielding questions
<bdrung> at least one ;)
<micahg> bdrung: at least 2 :) (see #chair)
<Laney> i doubt it requires core-dev attention specifically, and redirecting people isn't worth the effort if there are people in -motu who can answer
<geser> micahg: the testimonials writers answering simple questions about the process
<geser> you don't need a DMB for those questions (e.g. when to apply)
<geser> * DMB member
<geser> but I don't mind if #-motu or #-devel
<micahg> geser: indeed, I was able to answer most questions before I was a member, but still, sometimes people want an "official" answer
<Laney> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard?action=diff&rev2=28&rev1=27 ?
<tumbleweed> for an official answer, the channel should probably be -devel, unless it's a DMB member answering it
<tumbleweed> Laney: lgtm
<geser> micahg: we could add a highlight on "dmb"/ "DMB" to our IRC clients to get attention from a DMB member in #-devel
<Laney> or put !dmb into the bot
<geser> or that
<stgraber> Laney: +1 let's go with that for now. Adding !dmb to the bot would be a good extra too.
<Laney> ok
<micahg> indeed, but -devel can get noisy at times, but let's try it, if it's not working, we can do something else
<bdrung> let's try it and see how it works
<geser> many people leave a channel if they don't get a timely answer and having an own channel where we see the question hours after they left (bad hour of the day) then the channel doesn't help them
<stgraber> #action Laney to update the wiki to point applicants to #ubuntu-devel or #ubuntu-motu for questions and add a "dmb" keyword in the bot calling all the DMB members
<meetingology> ACTION: Laney to update the wiki to point applicants to #ubuntu-devel or #ubuntu-motu for questions and add a "dmb" keyword in the bot calling all the DMB members
<micahg> stgraber: just a reminder, Ubuntu friendly meeting in 20 minutes and last time I ran over :)
<bdrung> geser: -motu is the better place on weekends
<stgraber> micahg: yeah, I don't plan on discussing the new package set so we should be good
<stgraber> #topic Creation of new desktop-extra package set (time permitting and if no one minds the late addition)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Creation of new desktop-extra package set (time permitting and if no one minds the late addition)
<stgraber> we don't really have time and I only got aware of it 5 minutes before the meeting, postponed to next meeting (Nov 7)
<stgraber> #topic Ubuntu Core Developer Applications - Brian Murray
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Ubuntu Core Developer Applications - Brian Murray
 * geser has to leave now
<stgraber> bdmurray: you're up
<stgraber> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BrianMurray/CoreDevApplication
 * bdmurray waves
<stgraber> I completely forgot to add a testimonial to that wiki page... So for the record, I've been sponsoring a few of bdmurray's uploads, mostly adding apport hooks. They all were fine and could be uploaded as-is.
<bdmurray> stgraber: thanks for that
<bdrung> bdmurray: you are very experienced on specific topics (e.g. package hooks). what have you done outside your comfort zone?
<bdmurray> bdrung: as a part of the patch piloting process I review and upload code other than apport package hooks.
<bdmurray> bdrung: and forward those patches to debian and upstream where appropriate
<stgraber> bdmurray: something I was wondering about these apport hooks, are there plans on forwarding these in Debian/upstream to reduce the merging effort on Ubuntu's side?
<bdrung> bdmurray: do you have experience with syncing/merging from Debian?
<bdmurray> stgraber: no and actually there has been some discussion about creating a different way for installing the apport hooks as SRUs for them are awkward
<bdmurray> bdrung: a very little bit
<tumbleweed> bdmurray: that's an impressive set of endorsements
<tumbleweed> I was rather suprised to see no mention of uploads until the endorsements :P
<bdmurray> tumbleweed: what do you mean?
<bdrung> impressive set, but they are all connected to apport hooks
<tumbleweed> the application mostly talks about work, not related to upload rights
<micahg> bdmurray: do you have any inherent interests outside of apport hooks/bug related packages?
<bdmurray> bdrung: I've done some work on base-files that isn't apport hook specific
<stgraber> NOTE: I'm going to allow 4 more minutes for questions, then call the vote as we're starting to run out of time
<bdmurray> micahg: I'm primarily interested in the bug reporting process but I am also interested in package management, upgrades and making fixes available for stable releases via SRUs.
<tumbleweed> bdmurray: you say you intend to do more work updating some packages you care about. Any reason why you haven't started that yet?
<bdmurray> tumbleweed: just the age old problem of time ;-)
 * Laney notes that improving QA is a fine reason for people wanting upload rights, and would like to see it generalised to other types of QA work (piuparts springs to mind)
<tumbleweed> yeah, that one bites us all
<Ursinha> piuparts :)
 * tumbleweed is done with questions
<bdrung> bdmurray: do you plan to do sync or merges in the future?
 * micahg too
<stgraber> speaking of time, it's now time to vote :)
<bdmurray> bdrung: yes I am definitely interested in doing those in the future and would ask questions if I run into any issues.
<stgraber> #startvote Brian Murray application for Core Dev
<stgraber> #vote Brian Murray application for Core Dev
<meetingology> Please vote on: Brian Murray application for Core Dev
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<stgraber> +1 [ Great work on apport hooks and SRUing them, hope to see even more of them in the future ]
<meetingology> +1 [ Great work on apport hooks and SRUing them, hope to see even more of them in the future ] received from stgraber
<Laney> +1 // Who am I to overrule those testimonials? :-)
<meetingology> +1 // Who am I to overrule those testimonials? :-) received from Laney
<tumbleweed> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from tumbleweed
<bdrung> +1 bdmurray has a focussed knowledge about qa topics. he will not do harm when working work outside that comfort zone.
<meetingology> +1 bdmurray has a focussed knowledge about qa topics. he will not do harm when working work outside that comfort zone. received from bdrung
<Laney> quick!
<micahg> +0, While I think the SRUing and apport hooks are great, it all seems to be centralized in one area (aside from the sponsored patches), I'd like to see more work outside this area
<meetingology> +0, While I think the SRUing and apport hooks are great, it all seems to be centralized in one area (aside from the sponsored patches), I'd like to see more work outside this area received from micahg
 * Laney has an AOB
<stgraber> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Brian Murray application for Core Dev
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<stgraber> bdmurray: congrats!
<Laney> :-)
<micahg> congrats bdmurray
<bdmurray> Thanks everyone
<stgraber> #action stgraber to add bdmurray to the core dev team
<meetingology> ACTION: stgraber to add bdmurray to the core dev team
<stgraber> #topic Select a chair for the next meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Select a chair for the next meeting
<stgraber> apparently we chose to go with alphabetical order, so next up is bdrung
<stgraber> see you all in two weeks!
<bdrung> bdmurray: congrats. i wouldn't have hesitated if you had done more work outside your comfort zone
<stgraber> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Oct 24 14:59:40 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-10-24-14.02.moin.txt
<Laney> erm
<bdrung> stgraber: alphabetical in which direction? ;)
<Laney> I was going to ask if I should go ahead and register the session at UDS
<stgraber> bdrung: according to LP, I'm the last one in the list ;)
<stgraber> bdrung: I used: https://launchpad.net/~developer-membership-board/+members#active
 * tumbleweed just sneaked in there
<bdrung> stgraber: we could go upwards ;)
<brendand> hi everyone, ready for the UF Squad meeting?
<stgraber> bdrung: doing it the same way as the TB so I don't get confused ;)
<stgraber> Laney: sounds good, do it ASAP as slots at UDS are pretty hard to get apparently
<brendand> #startmeeting Ubuntu Friendly Squad
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Oct 24 15:02:08 2011 UTC.  The chair is brendand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Friendly Squad Meeting | Current topic:
<ara> hello!
<jedimike> hi
<roadmr> hey :)
<brendand> The agenda for today is:
<brendand> Scoring system - jedimike
<brendand> AOB
<brendand> #topic Scoring system - jedimike
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Friendly Squad Meeting | Current topic:  Scoring system - jedimike
<jedimike> o/
<brendand> jedimike - proceed :)
<jedimike> currently, the rules for rejection and failure of submissions are this:
<jedimike>  * If you skip all tests in a core category, we reject the submission
<jedimike>  * If you skip an individual test in a core category that required external hardware that not everyone might have (writable media, for example), we ignore that test and apply a penalty to the score, but still allow that category to pass if all other tests pass
<jedimike>  * If you skip an individual test in a core category that you should have ran, we fail the category and score the system 1 star
<jedimike> That last rule seems far too harsh. I think that skipping an individual test in a core category that we don't allow you to skip should result in the submission being rejected, as we have a lot of 1 star systems that are only 1 star because someone skipped a test.
<jedimike> 251 systems, to be precise
<ara> o/
<jedimike> ..
<brendand> ara - go ahead
<ara> I agree that we should change 3rd rule to reject the submission
<ara> if a non-skippable test was skipped
<jedimike> o/
<ara> and I would put something in the particpate page to make things clearer
<ara> ..
<brendand> back to you jedimike
<jedimike> I'd also put something in that intermediate "report a problem" page that says, "Can't find your results?" and explains why we reject submissions, and directs them towards either results tracker, or where we need them to look, to view their submission
<jedimike> ..
<ara> o/
<brendand> ara - shoot
<ara> yes, I agree. I think that we don't need to be really fancy on letting people know exactly why it was rejected
<ara> a nice explanation of the basics should be fine
<ara> and yes ,that explanation should be at Participate and Report a problem
<brendand> o/
<ara> not sure if pointing to the submissions is needed, though
<ara> ..
<roadmr> o/
<brendand> just a quick piece, to say that in the long term if we could enforce running of the tests through the checkbox UI that would be nice
<brendand> ..
<brendand> roadmr - go ahead
<roadmr> we should make sure that reasons for rejecting submissions are made abundantly clear
<cr3> o/
<roadmr> we already see people wondering why their submissions take so long to appear in UF
<roadmr> so if we just start "eating" them there's bound to be some complaints
<roadmr> it goes to being as transparent as possible
<jedimike> o/
<roadmr> ideally I'd like to see checkbox say "this submission is not UF-complete so it'll be rejected" or something to the point (i.e. instant feedback) but it may not be possible to do :(
<roadmr> still this is something to be looked into, for transparency's sake.
<roadmr> ..
<ara> o/
<brendand> cr3 - your turn
<cr3> brendand: dude, I want to write a testing game! seriously though, it doesn't really need to contribute to UF though but might be nice :)
<cr3> ..
<brendand> ok, after that, back to ara
<cr3> not jedimike?
<ara> jedimike it is
<brendand> cr3 - you're right
<brendand> jedimike?
<cr3> brendand: /unignore jedimike :)
<jedimike> I agree with roadmr that we do need something to tell the users at least which of their submissions made it and which didn't
<jedimike> we don't need to break down scores or anything
<jedimike> but it might improve the quality of submissions
<jedimike> if we were able to say "X submission didn't get accepted because you skipped audio/xyz"
<jedimike> and it would cut out the "why didnt my results get listed" questions totally"
<jedimike> ..
<brendand> ara, your turn (and apologies to jedimike)
<ara> so, I agree with roadmr, but those are ideas for 12.04 LTS, when we improve the UI
<ara> but we need to take them into account, of course
<ara> with the UI changes we can make a much better work in letting people know what they have to run for the submission to be accepted in UF
<jedimike> o/
<ara> for now, an explanation of what is a core category and how it works might help
<ara> ..
<brendand> jedimike, go ahead
<jedimike> if we're not going to make the submissions available to the users through UF, can I put in a feature request for results tracker so that a user's test runs are linked to from their page on there?
<jedimike> ..
<brendand> o/
<brendand> we need to remember that even though ubuntu-friendly is in beta, if we don't keep things transparent we risk creating frustration for users
<jedimike> o/
<brendand> one challenge i think we have is that we are able to update UF pretty much as we want, but not the source of the tests (i.e. checkbox)
<brendand> so we need to avoid making changes in UF which really require support from checkbox
<brendand> this is one of those i think
<brendand> ...
<brendand> jedimike - you can go now
<akgraner> oops sorry I am late
<brendand> akgraner - no problem. we're discussing a possible change to the scoring system.
 * akgraner catches up
<brendand> akgraner - thanks
<brendand> jedimike?
<jedimike> just to say, transparency is good :) and at the moment it's not clear if your submission has made it or not, and I think if it's possible to make that change on results track to link the user's page to their test submissions it would help (even helps me respons to bug reports!)
<jedimike> ..
<brendand> o/
<akgraner> o/
<brendand> akgraner - you go first
<akgraner> Is ther anyway to say  - not let the skipped question count against the over scoring and not somewhere that these scores don't include skipped questions
<akgraner> overall scoring I meant
<akgraner> ...
<akgraner> I mean I might have skipped a test just b/c I didn't have a USB stick handy that doesn't mean it didn't pass
<brendand> akgraner - the issue is that, at the moment tests like the audio ones are skippable. and it seems a lot of people are skipping them. but if we only have one submission for a system then we need to make a call about what that means.
<ara> me needs to leave now
<brendand> bye ara
 * ara will read the minutes tomorrow
<ara> cheers
 * brendand continues
<akgraner> brendand, I go back and re-do the test for the ones I skip once I find all my stuff :-)
<jedimike> o/
<brendand> we don't want to say that a skipped test means that the component must work, but neither can we say for sure that it means it doesn't
<brendand> so the best thing to do is probably to not accept these submissions at all
<akgraner> but some people don't have external monitors
<akgraner> so you would disregard their test on that one point
<brendand> akgraner - but for tests which need special equipment we already have a different rule, so your system can still get a good score if you didn't test external monitor or usb
<cr3> o/
<akgraner> ah ok :-)
<jedimike> akgraner: if a test requires special equipment, like a USB stick or external monitor, we allow people to skip it without failing that component
<brendand> ..
<brendand> jedimike - you can go ahead now
<akgraner> gotcha - sorry I didn't know that. /me is quiet now :-)
<jedimike> was just going to say that :) and that we need to make that clear on the participate page
<jedimike> and implement what ara said about making it clear that if you skip tests that don't require external equipment
<jedimike> your submission may not be included in the site
<jedimike> ..
<brendand> akgraner - an example of a test you *can't* skip is audio/alsa_record_playback_internal, since it doesn't require extra equipment
<brendand> cr3, your turn
<cr3> if I understand correctly, skippable tests may affect scoring between 3-5, but non-skippable tests are those that may affect scoring between 1-3
<cr3> I think someone made a point that non-skippable tests should be enforced in the checkbox UI so that people don't get surprised with a crappy score between 1-3
<cr3> ..
<brendand> cr3  - that was me :)
<brendand> cr3 - but the problem is we'd need to SRU that change in
<brendand> o/
<cr3> brendand: oneiric is beta, it could be argued that we're really targeting precise with the ultimate ninja solution
<brendand> actually, if i could expand on this. i'm not sure i feel too awesome about the 'skippable''ness of tests being encoded in the u-f site itself
<brendand> it should really be encoded in checkbox
<brendand> ..
<brendand> it seems that most people agree we need to reject submissions that don't have all the tests run that must be run
<brendand> the question is to what extent do we guide the users about this?
<brendand> ideal would be to enforce it in checkbox, but in the short term it needs to be stated on the UF website
<brendand> but...
<brendand> it's important to remember that the assumption that everyone will engage with UF directly through the site is probably wrong
<brendand> so some users may not even read the participate page
<brendand> ...
<akgraner> o/
<brendand> akgraner - go ahead
<akgraner> brendand, your assumption is right - many people find out about system testing on their computer, run the test, *then* find out about the site
<akgraner> and I know a people who never read documentation (sadly) but it does happen...
<cr3> o/
 * brendand points to self
<brendand> cr3 - your turn
<cr3> it would be nice to see the number of submissions to launchpad before and after ubuntu friendly was announced, there was already a large number of submissions coming in before probably from people just discovering checkbox and running it for the heck of it
<cr3> ..
<brendand> cr3 - indeed
<cr3> brendand: modulo hardware certification submissions, of course :)
<cr3> brendand: is it time for aob?
<brendand> seems like everyone is done on this topic
<brendand> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Friendly Squad Meeting | Current topic:  AOB
<brendand> AOB?
<cr3> o/
<brendand> cr3 - yep
<cr3> checkbox needs tests for gremlins because they've been misbehaving in my computer lately :)
<cr3> ..
<brendand> #action cr3 to add gremlins/detect to checkbox
<meetingology> ACTION: cr3 to add gremlins/detect to checkbox
<cr3> "Does your gremlin have a shiny coat, and I don't mean a pimp coat!"
<roadmr> o/
<brendand> roadmr - is this still about gremlins?
<roadmr> nope
<brendand> roadmr - then please, go ahead :)
<roadmr> heheh, just wanted to get a feel for how useful people think the number of "raters" is in the UF front page
<cr3> between 1 and 10, I'd say 11 :)
<roadmr> ... basically just that, should that information be available at a glance, or is it ok to move it to the system's detail page for instance?
<roadmr> ..
<brendand> roadmr - i think it depends on whether people are using it the way we imagine they would (i.e. to get an idea of how 'reliable' the results are)
<roadmr> hmm maybe at some point we could conduct a poll on how useful people visiting UF think each bit of information is
<brendand> maybe at UDS?
<roadmr> I was thinking something like those "would you like to answer a poll to help improve our site?" - to get a feel from normal, average users
<roadmr> I think the UDS crowd may be too biased towards preferring a lot of information :)
<cr3> roadmr: maybe it can be used as an excuse to make people aware of the site in the first place
<brendand> roadmr - i hate those things :) but yeah, you're right it should be from normal site users
<cr3> roadmr: although, since ara will be making a presentation, everyeone will innevitably know about it. maybe ask her to announce the poll?
<roadmr> cr3: that too! and to encourage a bit more participation, which is always good
<cr3> I think that deserves an action item for ara if we all agree a poll would be useful. I don't see how it could hurt
<cr3> from the little usability testing I've done, it's been tremendously useful
<cr3> if anyone intends to prepare some usability testing sessions, you might like to read: Rocket Surgery Made Easy
<roadmr> we'd have to have the poll ready before UDS (i.e. in about 10 days)
<cr3> ... and don't let jedimike run the session otherwise he'll jedi mind trick everyone to say what he wants to hear :)
<brendand> who'd like to prepare some questions?
<brendand> considering we're nearly out of time, i propose cr3
<cr3> brendand: I thought jedimike would be better placed for writing the questions, no?
<brendand> jedimike - do you want to do that?
<jedimike> brendand: yeah
<brendand> #action jedimike to prepare a small usability survey about the site
<meetingology> ACTION: jedimike to prepare a small usability survey about the site
<brendand> ok, i think our time here is up
<brendand> thanks everyone for your participation
<brendand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Oct 24 16:01:59 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-10-24-15.02.moin.txt
<roadmr> thanks!
<jdstrand> o/
<tyhicks> hello
<jdstrand> so, let's get started
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Oct 24 17:01:08 2011 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<mdeslaur> Â±o
<mdeslaur> argh
<mdeslaur> \o
<jdstrand> heh
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: no comment
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> UDS next week. In lieu of our weekly meeting, please consider participating remotely. For details, see http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-p
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> so, I'm on community this week
<jdstrand> I've got some pending updates
<jdstrand> UDS preparation
<jdstrand> and continued QRT testing as I have time. This got backburnered as a started looking at our old bugs
<jdstrand> that's it from me
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're next
<mdeslaur> I'm currently testing a couple of embargoed issues
<mdeslaur> and have more stuff in the PPA to test, as time permits
<mdeslaur> I have some UDS stuff to do
<mdeslaur> and have to prepare my UDS laptop
<mdeslaur> short week, as I'm off on friday
<mdeslaur> that's it from me, sbeattie you're it
<sbeattie> I'm in the happy place this week
<sbeattie> I've openjdk, apache, and empathy on my plate
<sbeattie> I also need to do more prep for UDS
<sbeattie> I think that's it for me; micahg: tag.
<micahg> UDS prep, patch pilot, possible Chromium update, start preparing Mozilla updates for Nov 8, start discussion upstream about possible Webkit GTK LTS
<micahg> time permitting, start Maverick migration to Firefox rapid release
<micahg> that's it for me
<tyhicks> I'm on triage this week
<tyhicks> Outside of that roles, I'm putting the finishing touches on a few (yikes!) high priority eCryptfs bugs
<tyhicks> I've got a little more UDS prep work to do, too
<tyhicks> jjohansen: You're up
<jjohansen> I am in the happy place (I think)
<jjohansen> I need to pickup the kernel workflow from mdeslaur, fix the bug I introduced to qrt, do a little more setup and finish the repaving of systems this week.  Preparation for UDS, and hopefully finish the aa backend permission rework, oh and get the aa dbus code up
<jjohansen> thats it for me
<jdstrand> cool
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Securi
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/djbdns.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ldns.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/smbind.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/varnish.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/bristol.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
 * mdeslaur hears crickets
<jdstrand> (that last url was https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, micahg, tyhicks, jjohansen: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Oct 24 17:14:49 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-10-24-17.01.moin.txt
<micahg> thanks jdstrand
<tyhicks> jdstrand: thank you
<sbeattie> jdstrand: thanks!
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand
<SilverLion> *knock knock*
<akgraner> ok who's here for the leadership team meeting - we'll starting in just a few minutes
<ashams> o/
 * jrgifford is here for the leadership meeting
<akgraner> ok one sec
<akgraner> #start meeting
<akgraner> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Oct 24 18:03:25 2011 UTC.  The chair is akgraner. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<akgraner> ok not who's here for the leadership meeting
<akgraner> s/not/now even
 * valorie is sorry I was late
<akgraner> so this is going to be one of those quick meetings
<valorie> connection problems
<akgraner> valorie, no worries so was I :-(
<valorie> heh
 * SilverLion reports active for leadership meeting
<valorie> #startmeeting Ubuntu-Leadership
<meetingology> valorie: Error: Can't start another meeting, one is in progress.
<valorie> ooo, sorry
<akgraner> great - so let me grab the wiki - fail on my part for lack of an agenda but we do have the road map and blueprint to take a look at for the 12.04 cycle
<akgraner> valorie, I already started it
<valorie> also, I want to share a new resource
<bkerensa> hi
<valorie> and I think you do too
<valorie> o/
<ashams> hi
<valorie> yay!
<valorie> peeps for the meet!
<akgraner> so so let's look at the wiki
<jono> :-)
<akgraner> #topic leadership wiki
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: leadership wiki
<akgraner> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuLeadership
<akgraner> so here is our wiki page that outlines some but not all of our goals
<jono> is this page just for team goals?
<akgraner> jono, nope I'll get to that
<jono> ok
<akgraner> I should say mission etc
 * jrgifford reads wikipage again
<valorie> heh, Darkwing - fix your link
<akgraner> #topic projects page
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: projects page
<akgraner> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuLeadership/Projects
<akgraner> this page has the projects we are working and goals per cycle on ut
<akgraner> it
<valorie> here is the place I jump in with my new resource idea
<akgraner> here's the links for the -P blueprints and roadmaps
<akgraner> valorie, one sec
<valorie> ok
<jono> cool
<akgraner> #link roadmap - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuLeadership/Roadmap-P
<akgraner> #link blueprint - https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-p-leadership-team
<akgraner> so take a look at those and while you are looking over those  - valorie please tell us about your resource
<valorie> last week I wrote a book
<akgraner> sweet :-)
<akgraner> link
<valorie> I mean, I seriously *wrote a book* -- have a stack of copies next to me
<bkerensa> =o
<bkerensa> wow :D congrats valorie
<valorie> using the http://flossmanuals.org
<akgraner> valorie, go on
<valorie> with 3 Indian students
<akgraner> you mean http://flossmanuals.net/
<valorie> oops, yes
<valorie> their resources might not fit our needs, but they are amazing
<SilverLion> akgraner: fyI: the articles of mine regarding this leadership thing are online now
<valorie> free, opensource
<akgraner> totally - I'm familiar with those resources
<valorie> and amazingly flexible
<valorie> ok
<akgraner> nods- so your idea in regards for the team is to use this resource for our books/publications?
<valorie> I want to throw it into the idea pool
<akgraner> cool  - I'll add it to the roadmap and blueprint it's a great tool/resource :-)  Thank you!
<valorie> if we ever will have a need for a printed book, I would totally plump for this
<valorie> or ePub
<valorie> PDF
<valorie> etc.
<akgraner> #action akgraner to add valorie 's suggestions of using flossmanuals for our publications to BP and Roadmap
<meetingology> ACTION: akgraner to add valorie 's suggestions of using flossmanuals for our publications to BP and Roadmap
<valorie> if not, then bzr is available too
<akgraner> yep already looking at that one :-)
<akgraner> ok anything else in regards to the blueprints/roadmap/ or current projects list?
<valorie> the other advantage of it, beyond the easy collaboration, is that it is listed on their page
 * bkerensa has something
 * ashams too
<akgraner> valorie, anything else
<akgraner> bkerensa, floor is yours
<valorie> no, I've done burbling for now
 * bkerensa thinks it would be interesting to develop Webinars or possibly standalone videos on Leadership
<akgraner> bkerensa, you read my mind
 * ashams has nothing now, thanks to bkerensa
<akgraner> I was going to talk to jono about mentoring us on how he does some of his UStream stuff
<bkerensa> Kaltura has an Open Source platform for videos and I think there might be a Open Source webinar platform out there
<bkerensa> UStream is decent but lots of ads :)
<akgraner> jono thoughts on that...
<jono> I would like to discuss new mediums of open weeks anyway
<jono> jcastro and I discussed this a little
<akgraner> yep but it's free and people can interact with each other and the speaker easily
<jono> how to create a more media rich environment for tuition content
<jono> unfortunately there are limited solutions out there
<jono> right now I find ustream.tv is best
<akgraner> jono,  great - so how can we as the leadership team help you with that?
<akgraner> should we add that to the leaderhip summit topic ideas?
<akgraner> and maybe do a couple of those at UDS
<jono> akgraner, right now, I think we don't need much help - I reached out to Google to see if they will give me a public hangout account
<SilverLion> jono hey there
<jono> hey SilverLion
<bkerensa> I know Finn who used to be apart of our LoCo had this resource that was open source where you could stream video and then just embed it on your site with a IRC widget
 * SilverLion is NRWlion
<SilverLion> :D
<jono> :-)
<valorie> that sounds totally cool, bkerensa
<bkerensa> jono: Bradley Horowitz for the win... He responds to e-mail quickly ;) and is VP of Product (Google+)
<akgraner> bkerensa, it's more that just recording a session is the interaction of the community as well which is why I think jono's community QA format works so well - btu always open to suggestions
<valorie> I heard a lot of discussion around this topic at the GSoC Mentor Summit
<jono> yup
<jono> I think the live chat thing is key
<valorie> I think some great stuff might be happening soon
<bkerensa> akgraner: Yeah no doubt... A public hangout idea is cool though :D
<valorie> the right people were all in the room together
<valorie> VLC, FFmpeg, etc.
<akgraner> jono, do you think at UDS we can do one Leadership Ustream cast -providing bandwidth will hold up?
<valorie> could have used a jono too!
<akgraner> #action work on weekly leadership videocasts
<meetingology> ACTION: work on weekly leadership videocasts
<jono> akgraner, you would need to talk to IS
<jono> if they can do it, then sure!
<Darkwing> Sorry I'm late.
<jono> I suspect bandwidth will be your enemy - ustream needs a lot of upload
<jono> valorie, :-)
<akgraner> :-(
<akgraner> ok anything else from anyone regarding blueprints and goals for next cycle
<YoBoY> sorry 'im late ^
<jono> akgraner, feel free to ask IS, they may be able to hook you up
<bkerensa> UStream Backpack http://www.ustream.tv/production-services/mobile-package
<bkerensa> ;)
<jono> can I ask a quick favor?
<akgraner> jono I'm meeting with them on SUnday
<jono> for help from the leadership team?
<akgraner> jono, sure
<akgraner> ask away
<jono> I would loved to see the team help focus folks on the BuildingCommunity pages
<jono> as a central knowledge base for leadership
<jono> is this something you folks could help with?
<bkerensa> +1
<SilverLion> link?
<akgraner> yes - let me grap the link so everyone knows what you are talking about
<ashams> +1
<jono> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildingCommunity
<akgraner> http://flossmanuals.net/
<akgraner> crap
<akgraner> cut and paste fail
<akgraner> thanks jono
<akgraner> Yep I think we can do that
<jono> the main areas I think we need to focus is:
<jono>  * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildingCommunity/KnowledgeBase
<jono>  * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildingCommunity/FAQ
<SilverLion> jono i am blogging about this topic exactly *happy
<jono> my dream is that this becomes a comprehensive and central set of documentation for the project
<jono> SilverLion, awesome!
<valorie> jono, who built this resource?
<akgraner> #action leadership team to help with BuildingCommunity Knowledgebase and FAQ pages
<meetingology> ACTION: leadership team to help with BuildingCommunity Knowledgebase and FAQ pages
<jono> valorie, I started it off a few years back
<akgraner> in Brussels right jono?
<SilverLion> you got the link i sent you via PM ... there is a second article as follow up coming online in the next 10 mins
<akgraner> or Dallas?
<jono> and then Chris C and Penelope S helped add a bunch of content
<jono> yeah I revived it back in Dallas
<jono> given that the Art of Community is CC licensed I suggested we merge some of the content in there so others can consume it in bitesize pieces
<akgraner> #action add BuildingCommunity pages to blueprint and Roadmap
<meetingology> ACTION: add BuildingCommunity pages to blueprint and Roadmap
<valorie> looks like an amazing resource
<akgraner> jono do you want one person as the go to from the team to work on merging Art of Community in there
<akgraner> I thought we did that already?
<akgraner> but guess not
<akgraner> we need 2 or 3 people to help with this merging - jono thoughts
<jono> well much of the AoC content has been merged in
<akgraner> how do you want this broken down?
<jono> but I think more could be merged in
<Darkwing> I'll volunteer to do what needs to be done. :)
<jono> I think it could be cool if a few leadership team folks merged in some of the content
<jono> I just think it will just make BuildingCommunity a more interesting resource with more content in there
<jono> Darkwing, sweet!
<akgraner> ok can you get us a list of what content you want merged in so we don't duplicate the work
 * bkerensa can assist Darkwing  as needed
<jono> akgraner, basically anything else that isnt in there right now I think
<jono> I don't have a list of things that are in and are not
<jono> although I think some blueprints might list them from a while back
<akgraner> ok - I have the book - I'll go through it and figure it out an get back with you and the team
<jono> also tbh, it doesnt have to be the AoC content, I just thought it would be low hanging fruit
 * bkerensa also has a print copy of the book
<bkerensa> :D
<jono> if others can write new content, that would be awesome
 * SilverLion reports in if his time table allows
<jono> fortunately, merging in the book is just cut and pasting and formatting
<jono> the only requirement is an attribution notice at the top of each wiki page
<SilverLion> jono check my link pls. maybe this will be interesting for you ;)
<jono> (the CC license requires that)
<akgraner> totally - I'll find the originally breakdown and see what still needs to be done from there
<jono> SilverLion, I will do later
<jono> thanks akgraner!
<jono> I think if BuildingCommunity is the central knowledge base that your team feeds into, that will be awesome
<akgraner> #action akgraner to check original bp for merging AoC to BuildingCommunity and will not gaps and get back to jono and the leadership team
<meetingology> ACTION: akgraner to check original bp for merging AoC to BuildingCommunity and will not gaps and get back to jono and the leadership team
<jono> thanks!
<akgraner> anything else?
<akgraner> from anyone
<jono> alright going to finish off my blog post and then hit up lunch
<jono> thanks, folks!
<akgraner> jono thanks!
<bkerensa> thanks jono
<jono> also folks, remember the mini summit at UDS!
<Darkwing> Thanks Jono
<jono> going to be fun :-)
<YoBoY> thanks jono
<SilverLion> jono have a good one!
<jono> take care, folks, thanks for the great work!
 * SilverLion is not going to be there :(
<akgraner> yeah that was going to be in the announcements
 * akgraner apologizes for lack of agenda  - that WILL be fixed for the next meeting!
<akgraner> ok so any other thoughts on things we are working on, things you want to see happen for the next cycle etc
<akgraner> suggestions or comments - the floor is open just o/ so we aren't talking all over one another
<ashams> does it needs a team to copy-n-pate?
 * ashams finished :)
<akgraner> ashams, what do you mean?
<bkerensa> Leadership Podcast for the win
<ashams> it's not a much of work to do
<bkerensa> ;)
<Darkwing> I wanted to say something :)
 * SilverLion will continue his series of blog posts 
<ashams> I beleive the /BuildingCommunity needs a complete make over
<akgraner> ashams, yep it's more than you think - I'll pull the stuff we already did so you can see how many people it took
<valorie> akgraner: is that something I should have done, since I volunteered to chair?
<valorie> the agenda
<Darkwing> I know since I drove into everyones mind that this can be done I have not been around and I wanted to apoligize for that. :)
<valorie> if so, FAIL
<akgraner> valorie, oh crap - I just started the meeting since we were running late
<valorie> I know
<akgraner> we;ll get this worked out  :-)
<valorie> it's fine -- my connection was screwed up
<valorie> yes
<valorie> Darkwing: {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
<Darkwing> :D
<akgraner> valorie, if you can check on the differences between flossmanuals and bzr in terms of ease of use that would be a big help
<valorie> ease of use: flossmanuals hands down
<akgraner> since we are getting ready to dump chapters 1 and 2 somewhere
<valorie> also better than googledocs
<akgraner> can you write up the why etc?
<valorie> sure, I'll send an email
<akgraner> so everyone understands etc
<akgraner> #action valorie to write up pros/cons to use floss manuals for or publications etc...
<meetingology> ACTION: valorie to write up pros/cons to use floss manuals for or publications etc...
<ashams> I'll work till Chapter 2 get completed
<valorie> :-)
<akgraner> ashams, chapter 2 is almost finished it's Chapter 1 that needs the most help
<YoBoY> (don't forget l10n possibilities eventualy)
<ashams> Chapter 1 is filled just needs some revision, but 2 has 2 modules to fill
<akgraner> YoBoY, yep - you want to lead that effort
<akgraner> ashams, Chapter 2 is overview with supporting doc in the following chapters
<akgraner> just add what you think needs to be there
<YoBoY> I need to donwload it to read it in the plane :)
<SilverLion> akgraner: just point me where you need me ;) i ll go and publish my next article ;)
<akgraner> SilverLion, thank you and will do  - thanks
<akgraner> YoBoY great!
<akgraner> anything else
<valorie> wow, you folks were rocking while I was gone
<valorie> as expected.....
<valorie> :-)
<akgraner> if not I'll get the blueprints and roadmaps updated and get an email to the list about today's meeting
<akgraner> #topic annoucements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: annoucements
<akgraner> UDS-P - next week in Orlando - if you can't go there is always remote participation which is great - I'll post something about that this week
<akgraner> Mini Leadership Summit at UDS - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-P/LeadershipSummit
<akgraner> also remote participation will be available for this as well
<akgraner> any other announcements
<ashams> akgraner: Thank you
<akgraner> ashams, you're welcome
<akgraner> anything else from anyone?
<valorie> great meeting; thank you amber for chairing
<akgraner> If not thanks everyone - I think are in the beginnings of a great resource for the community - thank you all for you hard work so far and I can't wait to see what all we can accomplish as a team this next cycle!
<akgraner> THANK YOU!
<akgraner> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Oct 24 18:45:37 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-10-24-18.03.moin.txt
<ashams> Thanks all
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-10-25
<dholbach> o/
<dholbach> o/~
<jono> alright
<jono> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Oct 25 15:00:56 2011 UTC.  The chair is jono. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jono> welcome everyone to the Canonical Community Team meeting
<jono> our second IRC meeting!
<jono> as usual, we will spin through some round-tables first, and this time I will ask if there are any questions at the end of each roundtable
<jono> we will then propose and discuss any agenda items
<jono> feel free to chip in and ask questions or make comments
<jono> dholbach, want to get this party started?
<dholbach> sure
<jono> :-)
<dholbach> â¢ dev survey: done with report: http://people.canonical.com/~dholbach/11.10-dev-docs-survey.pdf - wanted to have jono have a second look over it before publishing it
<dholbach> â¢ uds: set up blueprints, some still left to file
<dholbach> â¢ fixed sponsoring stats "hours in queue" script, unfortunately old data was broken for a while, had to restart with new data
<dholbach> â¢ did some sponsoring (with the useful side-benefit to test the above script)
<dholbach> â¢ CC handover completed
<dholbach> â¢ tried to get hold of Emmet: found out he's ill and taking a break
<dholbach> â¢ catch up call with Jono
<dholbach> â¢ started estimating required time for projects for 12.04 to better plan
<dholbach> â¢ noticed less activity in the ubuntu packaging guide, blogged about it and had 3 merge proposals coming in
<dholbach> â¢ weekly dev update
<dholbach> â¢ the usual big heaps of this and that
<jono> ahh so we made contact with Emmet?
<jono> that's good to hear
<jono> any questions for dholbach?
<dholbach> I got in touch with somebody who did, but yes :)
<jono> cool :-)
<jono> ok, no questions
<jono> dholbach is off the hook
<jono> :-)
<jono> next up, dpm!
<dpm> o/
<dpm> * 2 Ubuntu Open Week talks:
<dpm> - How to get started translating Ubuntu
<dpm> - How to write your first app
<dpm> People seemed to get quite excited about the second one, especially when they found out that they had created an app and it was working :)
<dpm> * Finished off 12.04 roadmap
 * dholbach hugs dpm
<dpm> :)
<dpm> * Filed all blueprints for UDS
<dpm> * Call with skaet and jibel to discuss localized ISOs pre-UDS
<dpm> * Started a conversation with chriscoulson, pitti and others to find a solution for Thunderbird translations not being installed automatically in oneiric
<jono> what is the current status on the localized ISOs?
<dpm> The tools are there, they need wider testing and we need to figure out a policy for publishing the isos
<dpm> I filed a blueprint to tackle those at UDS
<dpm> and from my testing, the tools are working
<jono> awesome!
<dpm> OEM tested them too to generate their Chinese ISO,
<dpm> but they ended up doing more customizations on top of that
<jono> sounds good
<dpm> ok, next:
<dpm> * Reviewed language pack update schedule for Oneiric (created by TLE)
<dpm> * Helped the web design team organizing some translations
<dpm> for a part of the website
<dpm> (this is not about ubuntu.com becoming translated)
<dpm> * Prepared lightning talks and community app developer plans in preparation for the Consumer Software sprint next Thursday
<dpm> * Updated the API docs publisher script on developer.ubuntu.com to be more clever guessing the type of document published and be more automatic
<dpm> * Could then publish the utouch-qml API documentation as a result of that work
<dpm> * Updated the developer.ubuntu.com/api page links and restructured the layout
<dpm> I think that was mostly me this week
<jono> thanks dpm
<jono> so why are Thunderbird translations not being automatically imported?
<jono> dpm ^
<dpm> jono, for one Launchpad does not support their format, but the main issue seems to be with installing them (we get them from upstream and package them):
<dpm> so the current package containing translations
<jono> ahhh gotcha
<dpm> seems to have a dependency problem
<jono> what is the plan to solve the issue?
<dpm> we're still talking about it, but it seems that one way to go forward is to update update-manager
<dpm> so that
<dpm> it explicitly checks for missing language packs when installing Thunderbird
<jono> gotcha
<jono> thanks dpm
<dpm> and then goes and install them
<jono> any questions for dpm?
<jono> alrighty!
<jono> hmm where is Jorge?
<jono> I just pinged him
<jono> no response
<jono> ok I will go next
<jono> I had a few days off last week on Thu and Fri
<jono> although spent it recording and writing
<jono> we have had a few changes recently:
<jono>  * Ahmed Kamal resigned last week and Jorge is now taking over his role as Ubuntu Cloud Community Coordinator - I will be backfilling for an Upstream Coordinator - more on this soon. Jorge's focus in this cycle will be on growing a charms community and growing cloud.ubuntu.com
<jono> we wish Ahmed the best for the future
<jono>  * As mentioned last week, Eric Ward decided his new role was not for him, and I will be recruiting a QA Community Coordinator. More on this soon too.
<jono> - Final UDS organizational bits and pieces
<jono> getting everyone to finalize their sessions
<jono> getting the Community track sessions for our team finalized and registered - everything appears to be in order now
<jono> scheduling a Qt Q+A session
<jono> Leadership Mini Conf scheduled and ready to roll
<jono>  - been talking with the design team about increased community participation via 'experience' design and development
<jono> more on this at UDS
<jono> - spent some time this weekend summarizing the results of the Ubuntu Community Survey into the final report
<jono> published the report on Sunday night, and response is generally very positive - http://www.jonobacon.org/2011/10/24/ubuntu-community-survey-results/
<jono> I have started blogging each day about different aspects of the report - did the first one yesterday on Leadership - http://www.jonobacon.org/2011/10/24/ubuntu-community
<jono> oops
<jono> http://www.jonobacon.org/2011/10/24/ubuntu-community-survey-next-steps-leadership/
<jono> - joined the Ubuntu Leadership Meeting and asked if they can help us with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildingCommunity - the team is going to be able to help generate more content.
<jbicha> I appreciate the work done on the Community Survey!
<jono> thanks jbicha!
<jono> I think it is really going to help us fix some of these things
<jono> thanks to akgraner, Darkwing, and others who are going to help out with BuildingCommunity
<jono> - Synced up with Randall Ross - discussed growing leadership capacity in the community
<jono> I love Randall
<jono> - published the Ubuntu Accomplishments Spec at http://www.jonobacon.org/2011/10/25/ubuntu-accomplishments-system-spec/ and registered a blueprint
<jono> Met up with Mako last night for coffee, was great to catch up
<alourie> it was awesome!
<jono> alourie, :-)
<jono> you are awesome, my friend :-)
<jono> I am taking off to Orlando today and will around a little less on IRC over the next few weeks
<dholbach> question about the accomplishments spec: shall I add a subpage with the ideas for accomplishments I put together together with the QA team?
<jono> dholbach, yeah, I wanted to discuss this as an agenda itme
<jono> item
<jono> that would be great
<dholbach> adding a todo item
<jono> thanks dholbach
<jono> lets discuss this more in a few mins
 * dholbach nods
<jono> so any questions for me about these items?
<alourie> jono: me ?? how so? :-)
<rrnwexec> @jono: thanks for the love. likewise <3
<meetingology> rrnwexec: Error: "jono:" is not a valid command.
 * jono hugs rrnwexec
<dholbach> haha :)
 * dholbach hugs meetingology
<jono> jono is never a valid command
<jono> :-)
<rrnwexec> jono: thanks for the love. likewise <3  (yes, he's not a command, yet)
<alourie> I have question about accomplishments
<dpm> jono, I do have a question:
<dpm> I'll let alourie go first
<jono> alourie, can you hold for a sec, I will raise an agenda item for that in a few mins
<jono> dpm, shoot
<dpm> ok
<dpm> I need to schedule 2 Qt sessions as per the conversations with the Nokia Qt team:
<dpm> - Qt Roadmap
<alourie> sure
<dpm> - Qt integration with Ubuntu tools
<dpm> You mentioned you created a blueprint for Qt Q+A
<jono> dpm, I didnt create a blueprint yet
<jono> I have been talking with Mikko
<jono> and it sounds like Mikko wants to do a Q+A
<jono> dpm, you look after the other Nokia requested sessions and I will set of Mikko's
<dpm> jono, sounds good
<dpm> thanks
<jono> dpm, oh, my bad
<jono> he wants a Qt Roadmap session
<jono> so it sounds like he will lead that one
<jono> who is leading the integration session?
<dpm> jono, I'm assuming Adam Weinrich and the Qt engineers
<dpm> I'll schedule the session for them and can help with leading the session
<jono> dpm, ok, can you follow up with Adam?
<jono> thanks!
<dpm> jono, I did already
<jono> ok, so a few agenda items
<jono> thanks dpm!
<jono> first, dpm, dholbach, are your 12.04 blueprints all submitted?
<dpm> jono, yes
<dholbach> jono, most, I still have a question - can we discuss after the meeting?
<jono> dholbach, sure
<jono> ok, so next agenda item is the Ubuntu Accomplishments Spec
<dholbach> great
<jono> alourie, you had a question?
<alourie> yes
<alourie> I already have ideas around accomplishments
<alourie> how can I contribute them?
<alourie> and how can I participate?
<alourie> (the spec page is immutable, so no comments could be made there)
<alourie> oh!
<jono> so when we first discussed the idea, we documented a bunch of different types of accomplishments
<jono> and I asked dholbach to generate a list
<jono> oh it can't be edited
<jono> let me check
<alourie> sure
<alourie> and there's a funny mistake :-)
<jono> you should be able to edit it
<alourie> according to the current spec, dholbach will get all the trophies :-)
<jono> haha
<dholbach> well-deserved, if I might add
<dholbach> :-P
<jono> lol
<alourie> sure
<jono> dholbach, can you edit the page?
<dholbach> hang on
<sagaci> the spec looks editable
<jono> sagaci, thanks
<jono> alourie, so I recommend dholbach lists all the accomplishments we sketched out first
<dholbach> yep, confirmed
<jono> and then lets you know so you can expand on them
<jono> sound good?
<dholbach> I'll do that today - let's see how long it takes me to massage them into moinmoin
<alourie> it's under the Ubuntu UK flow example
<alourie> "... a trophy called Joe S. CoreDeveloper Kudos - 2nd September 2011 and this will appear in Daniel Holbachâs trophy cabinet"...
<alourie> dholbach: deserved indeed :-)
<jono> thanks dholbach
<jono> would be cool to show the dependency chain still
<sagaci> alourie: make sure you're logged into the wiki to edit
<jono> i.e. this accomplishment is unlocked when this one is completed
<alourie> ah...the magic of login
<alourie> :-)
<jono> so alourie, are you interested in coding this?
<jono> dholbach, maybe if you could create a sub-page listing all the accomplishments, and another sub-page for development and project management discussion
<dholbach> sure
<jono> awesome!
<jono> alright
<jono> any more business?
<dholbach> yep
<dholbach> âââ https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UCADay âââ
<jono> ahhh yeah
<dholbach> please all raise awareness and participate! :)
<jono> I read about this
<jono> looks awesome
<dholbach> it's awesome
<jono> I think this is a *really cool* idea
<jono> was great to see bkerensa's post on it on Planet
<jono> and next week....UDS! woo!
<dholbach> yeah :)
<jono> ok, folks, let's  wrap it
<jono> thanks for joining us!
<jono> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Oct 25 15:39:08 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-10-25-15.00.moin.txt
<dholbach> thanks everyone
<alourie> ok then, I'll talk directly do dholbach about the ideas
<alourie> is it ok, Daniel?
<alourie> jono:  coding maybe
<alourie> and everything else too
<dholbach> alourie, sure - although I'm probably not the best person to talk to about the infrastructure
<alourie> dholbach: no, not infrastracture, the accomplishment scenarios
<dholbach> my input was very general back then and mostly consisted in bringing people's ideas for accomplishments into a digestible form
<dholbach> ok
<alourie> ok
<dholbach> I'll let you know when I added the ideas to the wiki
<alourie> sure
<alourie> leave it open for comments then
<smoser> o/
<zul> hi
<Daviey> o/
<Daviey> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Oct 25 16:01:06 2011 UTC.  The chair is Daviey. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<RoAkSoAx> o.
<RoAkSoAx> o/
<lynxman> o/
<hallyn> \o
<Daviey> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<Daviey> ALL: review http://status.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html and make known any other bugs that need to be added to the list.
<Daviey> So.. i didn't get much feedback from this item..
<Daviey> we'll come back to this
<Daviey> #topic smb, jamespage, hggdh to work on triaging bug 790712
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: smb, jamespage, hggdh to work on triaging bug 790712
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 790712 in linux (Ubuntu Precise) "20110531 i386 server ISO: order 5 allocation failure during install" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/790712
<Daviey> Did this make any progress?
<jamespage> I don't think so
<jamespage> (well at least not from me)
<Daviey> we'll come back to that then, later on :(
<Daviey> #topic utlemming to figure out qemu image situation (carry-over)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: utlemming to figure out qemu image situation (carry-over)
<Daviey> utlemming isn't present.
<Daviey> #topic
* Topic unset by meetingology on #ubuntu-meeting
<Daviey> #topic Precise Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Precise Development
<Daviey> Merge and sync difference is looking good, we seem on target.
<Daviey> Specific issues being tracked:
<Daviey> http://status.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<robbiew> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server/+specs?role=assignee
<robbiew> :)
<Daviey> Shall we come back to specs?
<Daviey> bug 881464, anyone want to handle an MIR?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 881464 in keystone (Ubuntu) "[MIR] keystone" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/881464
<utlemming> \o
<smoser> did utlemming just raise his hand in response to "anyone want to handle an MIR?"
<smoser> i think he did.
<Daviey> utlemming: Have you handled a MIR before?
<utlemming> ah....that's what I get for showing up late to a meeting
<zul> Daviey: heh thats on my list for the openstack spec
 * Daviey assigns utlemming, if you have any questions - fire them to zul :)
<hallyn> if someone is looking for MIRs we have a bunch for spice dependencies :(
<smoser> you're bringing donuts next week also.
<Daviey> bug 858878 , rbasak - status?
<hallyn> and on laundry duty
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 858878 in cobbler (Ubuntu Precise) "lack of csrf protection in cobbler-web" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/858878
<rbasak> it looks like it'd be a fairly extensive patch, and I found another security issue which I need to check as well. cobbler-web doesn't seem to have been written with security in mind
<zul> rbasak: well it is a django app :)
<Daviey> rbasak: that might have to be our approach
<Daviey> zul: that is crap, django can be secure.
<zul> Daviey: joking
<rbasak> it seems to be using GET requests with side effects too
<Daviey> rbasak: Do you want to take the discussion to upstream?
<rbasak> though I need to verify this
<rbasak> Daviey: yes
<Daviey> cool
<hallyn> zul: <ssssh, he ran out of coffee this morning, keep a low profile>
<Daviey> jamespage: bug 801494 , we were waiting to see if it was a udev issue - any news that you know of?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 801494 in Ubuntu Precise "Multi part LVM layout: system fails to boot due to missing volumes" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/801494
<RoAkSoAx> is the latest release/checkout/branch from the cobbler repo with these security issues?
<jamespage> well the general opinion is that it is
<jamespage> but that said I can't actually reproduce anymore
<Daviey> jamespage: do you know if the discussion is ongoing?  Are we likely to get a fix for a1?
<Daviey> jamespage: Ooo
<Daviey> that sounds good.
<Daviey> jamespage: can you confirm that you cannot reproduce it this week?
<jamespage> yes
<Daviey> (difficult question, i know)
<Daviey> bug 858883, nobody assigned
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 858883 in cobbler (Ubuntu Precise) ""Management Parameters" (for example a system) which can be set in the web interface can result in arbitrary code execution on the host due to the use of yaml.loads instead of yaml.safe_loads in item.py on line 248: " [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/858883
<Daviey> rbasak: is this one that would be good to include in the discussion upstream?
<rbasak> for a general security discussion, yes, although it looks like this one *is* a simple one line patch
<Daviey> oh good.
<Daviey> rbasak: can you take ownership of that? :)
<rbasak> OK
<Daviey> bug 862558, no assignee - adam_g, is this something you want?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 862558 in cobbler-enlist (Ubuntu Precise) "cobbler-enlist is not checking for return codes enough" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/862558
<adam_g> Daviey: yes
<adam_g> and the other cobbler-enlist one, too
<Daviey> assigned. :)
<adam_g> ty sir
<Daviey> lynxman: bug 874981, status?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 874981 in mcollective (Ubuntu) "Please merge/sync mcollective from debian wheezy" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/874981
<lynxman> Daviey: in progress, activemq is working, just need ot merge, will be done in the next 2 days tops, I'm finishing a whitepaper first that has higher priority from my boss :(
<Daviey> rocking! thanks for your help lynxman
<lynxman> Daviey: pleased to help :)
<Daviey> bug 875818, blocked on MIR team review
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 875818 in libnetfilter-conntrack (Ubuntu) "[mir] libnetfilter-conntrack" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/875818
<Daviey> hallyn: bug 879636, status?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 879636 in lxc (Ubuntu) "please merge lxc (0.7.5-3) from Debian unstable" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/879636
<hallyn> working
<hallyn> just looking through patches/, otherwise ready to build
<Daviey> hallyn: great, uploaded by Friday?
<hallyn> yup
<Daviey> rocking
<Daviey> thanks
<hallyn> mp
<Daviey> bug 879853 , zul - status?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 879853 in munin (Ubuntu) "Munin upload 1.4.6-1ubuntu1 drops fixes / sponsor debdiff instead" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/879853
<zul> Daviey: ill fix it up today
<Daviey> cool
<Daviey> utlemming: bug 870121, is now Fix Released for Precise daily?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 870121 in Ubuntu Precise "APT::Periodic::Update-Package-Lists not set in cloud images" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/870121
<utlemming> yes sir
<utlemming> the latest images should be fixed
<Daviey> groovy, can you flip the status?  Thanks
<utlemming> doing it now
<Daviey> bug 875262, koolhead17 was working on.. are you here?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 875262 in php5 (Ubuntu Oneiric) "PHP Startup: Unable to load dynamic library '/usr/lib/php5/20090626+lfs/sqlite.so'" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/875262
<koolhead17> Daviey: yes sir
<Daviey> (The issue is that sqlite.so is attempted to be loaded by php - but we don't build it anymore)
<Daviey> Someone has just posted a work around to include a sqlite.so *sigh*
<Daviey> koolhead17: How is the package looking?
<koolhead17> Daviey: still compiling :(
<Daviey> koolhead17: heh, ok - thanks.. shout for help in #ubuntu-server if you need it.. thanks :)
<Daviey> bug 878597, smoser
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 878597 in rabbitmq-server (Ubuntu) "rabbitmq-server fails to uninstall" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/878597
<Daviey> smoser: how is it looking?
<Daviey> smoser: are you present?
<smoser> i just pushed a branch
<smoser> but i think lynxman is merging from debian
<smoser> and i would suggest he just merge my branch in his upstream merge.
<zul> smoser: merged was done this morning
<lynxman> smoser: merged by zul then he got all my 2.6.1 already packagd plugins :)
<smoser> oh.
<Daviey> does this mean the issue is fixed?
<Daviey> Or is smoser's fix needed to be re-based to current archive?
<Daviey> lynxman / zul ^^?
<zul> Daviey: i think it might need to be rebased
<smoser> i'll rebase to current archive and upload
<lynxman> Yeah the issue wasn't solved in 2.6.1 debian
<Daviey> rocking
<Daviey> smoser: can we have that done by EoW?
<Daviey> bug 880339, needs a refresh profile - anyone want to tackle that?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 880339 in mysql-5.1 (Ubuntu Precise) "AppArmor profile needs update" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/880339
<smoser> Daviey, for you, we can have it done today.
<Daviey> smoser: You rock my world, you know that?
<Daviey> (smoser, that is the apparmor issue?)
<smoser> i was referring to rabbitmq
<Daviey> RoAkSoAx: is that something you want to tackle?
<Daviey> 10 second rules is acceptance, right?
<smoser> 3
<smoser> 2
<smoser> 1
<smoser> RoAkSoAx assigned
<Daviey> Done!
<dholbach> harsh
<Daviey> bug 876768, hallyn - how is it going?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 876768 in Ubuntu "[needs-packaging] netcf" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/876768
<hallyn> it's on the back burner
<hallyn> i'll get to that again when i'm done with lxc and any new bugs
<Daviey> hallyn: For A1 or length of cycle?
<hallyn> what exactly?  i'll have a package working for sid by end of week i hope
<hallyn> when will it be *in* sid?  no idea :)
<hallyn> when i get that package, i'll do a new ubuntu package based on it,
<hallyn> and ask for that to be packaged in precise
<hallyn> all of that hopefully this week
<Daviey> Oh wow
<Daviey> better progress than i expected!
<Daviey> nice one hallyn
<RoAkSoAx> Daviey: smoser lol I cant take it though I wont work on it till probably EOW
<RoAkSoAx> or next week
<Daviey> That is all of our bugs on the list.. any others people are working on, or need to be targeted?
<adam_g> Daviey: i can also take bug 868492
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 868492 in cobbler-enlist (Ubuntu) "cobbler-enlist needs to register all interfaces on system, as advertised" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/868492
<Daviey> Great!
<rbasak> Daviey: I'm done with 878180
<Daviey> bug 878180
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 878180 in xmlrpc-c (Ubuntu) "missing Breaks/Replaces" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/878180
<rbasak> though I'm not sure how to test it, need to simulate some weird conditions for that
<Daviey> rbasak: did cjwatson look at it, do you know?
<rbasak> I've checked the file lists by hand though
<rbasak> not that I know of
<Daviey> Ok
<Daviey> Any other issues, people would like to raise - that we need to work on?
<Daviey> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<Daviey> UDS, NEXT WEEK - Orlando, florida
<Daviey> http://uds.ubuntu.com
<Daviey> Any other events?
<Daviey> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<Daviey> hggdh: Hello sir!
<robbiew> OpenCompute Summit this Thursday..but that's just me
<Daviey> okay, we'll come back
<Daviey> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<Daviey> Hello smb!
<Daviey> bug 881076, is awesome
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 881076 in linux (Ubuntu) "precise kernels do not boot on ec2" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/881076
<Daviey> I assume smb is absent.
<Daviey> any other kernel people present?
<Daviey> oh well
<Daviey> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (NCommander)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (NCommander)
<robbiew> this is a great meeting
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/PBlueprintIdeas
<robbiew> for those interested in Precise related ARM development
<robbiew> Server features listed there as well
<Daviey> Thanks NCommander !
<Daviey> That is a good URL for us to look through.
<Daviey> Any othet questions for NCommander ?
<Daviey> Thanks NCommander (robbiew)
<Daviey> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
<Daviey> koolhead17 deserves a mention, he's been rocking this week.
<Daviey> Thanks koolhead17
<Daviey> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion
<Daviey> robbiew: Want to mention blueprints?
<robbiew> I already did
<robbiew> lol
 * koolhead17 thanks Daviey for kicking me to correct direction and lynxman as well :)
<robbiew> all kidding aside
<lynxman> koolhead17: pleased to help man :)
<robbiew> I think we have MORE than enough
<robbiew> and will be focusing on making sure we have the right amount of information for each
<Daviey> Great
<robbiew> so we can have a useful discussion
<hallyn> stability stability stability :)
<robbiew> ie....SPECS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
<Daviey> Yeah, i noticed too many of the blueprints are title only
<robbiew> wiki.ubuntu.com/SpecTemplate
<Daviey> Some of them really need some pre-drafting, so we have something to talk about!
<robbiew> we don't need the complete Spec...but at least through "Assumptions"...so we know the idea and what we need to sort out
<Daviey> Great!  See you all next week :)
<Daviey> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announce next meeting date and time
<Daviey> Won't be on next week, so 2 weeks today, same time, same place
<Daviey> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Oct 25 16:44:09 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-10-25-16.01.moin.txt
<hallyn> cheerio
<Daviey> thanks all!
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-10-26
<dholbach> good morning
 * slangasek waves
<jhunt> o/
<cjwatson> yo
 * stgraber waves
<bdmurray> hi
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Oct 26 15:03:49 2011 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> we're down an mvo and an ev today; I'll fill in their reports
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e cjwatson barry doko stgraber jhunt mvo ev bdmurray slangasek)
<slangasek> mvo stgraber doko ev cjwatson barry jhunt bdmurray slangasek
<slangasek> [mvo]
<slangasek> misc: sprint preparing software-center (pre-uds sprint)
<slangasek> unattended-upgrades: fix hang in auto-reboot shutdown
<slangasek> software-center: more i18n fixes, debug/fix #878707 (icon display problem),
<slangasek> ubuntu-system-service: improve tests, improve code layout, SRU for branch from rodgrio
<slangasek> work on some libsoup stuff
<slangasek> python-apt: work on multiarch debfile support (lp:~mvo/python-apt/debfile-multiarch)
<slangasek> software-properties: cherry pick fixes from lp:~evfool/software-properties/fixes
<slangasek> patch pilot
<slangasek> vmbuilder: add support to build precise
<slangasek> python-apt: merge patches from the BTS, merge from debian
<slangasek> cups: test/upload fix for the upgrade issue #874835
<slangasek> ubuntu-system-service: improve tests, improve code layout, SRU for branch from rodgrio
<slangasek> [/mvo]
<slangasek> questions?
<doko> mvo is gone from the team now?
<slangasek> stgraber:
<barry> :(
<stgraber> - Did quite a bit of UDS preparation this week
<stgraber> - Processed most of my merges, helped with the LXC merge, still have to look at the open-iscsi one (need to rebuild test environment)
<stgraber> - Spent a bit of time with LXC upstream, going through the patches and bugs, updating the agenda for the UDS session
<stgraber> - Patch pilot last Wednesday
<stgraber> - Forwarded bug 876829 to Debian, seems to be a label issue, the IP is actually assigned to the interface, have to look at the proposed patches
<stgraber> - Put a test instance of the new ISO tracker at http://91.189.93.73/
<stgraber>   - Package status module works fine now
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 876829 in ifupdown (Ubuntu Precise) "Oneiric's ifupdown breaks ip aliases" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/876829
<stgraber>   - Admin UI for ISO testing is pretty much done
<slangasek> doko: not officially moved over yet... and he continues to be involved in all aspects of the package manager
<stgraber>   - SSO/Launchpad integration works fine (~ubuntu-release and ~ubuntu-qa-website-devel are both admins)
<stgraber> - TODO
<stgraber>   - LTSP hackfest tomorrow till Sunday, then UDS
<stgraber>   - Hoping to finish the ISO tracker admin UI, including xml-rpc interface and maybe a draft of the user interface by UDS
<stgraber>   - Prepare demo of IPv6 testing for Wednesday evening + container running non-native architecture as a lightning talk
<stgraber> (done)
<slangasek> but he is leaving foundations, so this UDS is the last chance to convince him to drink the beer you buy him :)
<cjwatson> slangasek: (do we get a backfill?)
<slangasek> cjwatson: yes
<doko> - openjdk-6 and openjdk-7 security updates
<doko> - openjdk-6 ARM assembler interpreter merge, testing
<doko> - gcc-4.6.2 release
<doko> - binutils updates from the branch
<doko> - eglibc trunk updates, trying to figure out build fixes for ARM
<doko>   (need somebody to test powerpc packages when these are built)
<doko>   http://www.eglibc.org/archives/patches/msg01025.html
<doko> - some merges
<slangasek> stgraber: I see that open-iscsi is on the long-time-without-merge list; good to hear that you're working on it :)
<slangasek> (that list is http://qa.ubuntuwire.org/oldmerges/, sorted by the 'superseded' column)
<stgraber> slangasek: yeah, I'm the touched it last and I want to see if Debian's open-iscsi fixes our weird initramfs/init script problem that I worked around last cycle
<stgraber> cjwatson: the interesting part is at http://91.189.93.73/admin/config/services/qatracker (assuming you told SSO to forward your membership in ~ubuntu-relesae to the tracker)
<slangasek> stgraber: well, it's worth a try; keep in mind that Debian doesn't use udev-based initramfs at all, so there'll be some differences
<cjwatson> oh, nice
<slangasek> [ev]
<slangasek> Investigation and prototyping around the crash database.
<stgraber> cjwatson: I'm hoping to have the Builds page finished today and have that be the first xmlrpc exported function (so we can get builds posted automatically without having to parse the html ;))
<slangasek> - I have a basic prototype running end to end in the Canonicloud after fighting a few OpenStack bugs and finding out that it really doesn't like you trying to provision a m1.large node.
<slangasek> - I've been wrapping my head around how to do things the right way in Cassandra and have an increasingly solid plan for the database layer.
<slangasek> - Had a meeting with James Troup on the IS requirements for the crash and metrics databases, and filed RT 48667 at his request.  I need to touch base with him again to come up with a plan for benchmarking that he wont stab me over.
<slangasek> - Briefly tried to set up a meeting with Martin next week to discuss
<slangasek> how we can best integrate with Apport.  I'd also like to chat with him about how we can expand the seemingly simple retracting daemon into a more complex bucketing system over time.
<cjwatson> stgraber: cool, let me know when I can play with it from python :)
<slangasek> - Need to find some of Robert Collins' time to knowledge share a bit around Cassandra.  I'm keen to understand what his plans were for progressive analytics in oopsrepository.  It looks like the Cassandra Hadoop bridge (with Hive or Pig) would be a good fit for generating the kind of data Kate and others want.  More importantly, I need a plan for how to asynchronously process the crashes into buckets.
<slangasek> [/ev]
<slangasek> questions?
<slangasek> cjwatson:
<cjwatson> Merges merges merges.  Also, merges merges merges.
<cjwatson> Keeping up with adding missing dpkg pre-dependencies for data.tar.xz, and with Haskell and OCaml rebuilds.
<cjwatson> Trying to keep up with libjpeg rebuilds.
<cjwatson> Trying to keep up with -Werror=format-security failures.  I've now changed dpkg to avoid exporting the latter to the environment, although cdbs packages will still need to be fixed (in both Debian and Ubuntu).
<cjwatson> Tracked down dh_make problem due to unset LOGNAME (bug 875705).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 875705 in dh-make (Debian) "dh_make in Oneiric outputs wrong content to changelog" [Unknown,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/875705
<cjwatson> Upgraded to precise.  Fixed libaio-dev/manpages-dev file conflict.  Otherwise things seem pretty smooth so far.
<cjwatson> Fixed casper-md5check to ignore non-md5sum lines in md5sum.txt (bug 873401).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 873401 in casper (Ubuntu Oneiric) "Check disc for defects failed with a iso images built using ubuntu-defaults-image" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/873401
<cjwatson> Working with kernel team to see if new kernel-wedge will fix bug 879340.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 879340 in linux (Ubuntu) "nic-shared-modules ballooned in size in precise" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/879340
<cjwatson> Registered blueprints for UDS.
<cjwatson> Working on refactoring germinate so that it can have a Python interface usable in Launchpad which does rather less duplicate work in every publisher run.
<cjwatson> Reported Launchpad build farm breakage today and helped to investigate; turned out to be due to the staging build-manager trying to talk to production builders.  Everything is recovered now although powerpc is now
<cjwatson>  even further behind.
<cjwatson> ..
<doko> wasn't a third powerpc buildd promised?
<cjwatson> yes, I have an RT ticket open for that
<cjwatson> https://rt.admin.canonical.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=48569 for those with access
<barry> syncs, merges, blueprints; python issue 13218 (test_ssl failures on Ubuntu); todo: more syncs and merges, uds prep.  also, my testing experiment will likely be merged with the pyti project and we'll also combine proposals for pycon 2012. done.
<jhunt> Managed to recreate Plymouth bug 849414/553745 (yay!!), although I'm
<jhunt> unable to see the failure on boot as observed by users. I think I now
<jhunt> mostly understand the problem, but still need to fix it (and update the
<jhunt> bug with the juicy details :) Registered a couple of blueprints for
<jhunt> UDS. Reviewed patch from RedHat for new Upstart stanza ('usage').
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 849414 in plymouth (Ubuntu Precise) "plymouthd crashed with SIGSEGV in ply_event_loop_process_pending_events()" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/849414
<jhunt> Upstart job logging work still "real soon now": forced to curtail use of
<jhunt> TEST_ALLOC_FAIL for log tests due to relative unpredictability of how
<jhunt> many times NIH uses memory allocators with async io handlers. Currently
<jhunt> finishing tidy-up and testing.
<jhunt> â
<barry> the test_ssl failures were a fun one.  when we switch openssl to disabling sslv2 via configure option it changed the semantics of sslv23 connecting to sslv3 and tlsv1 servers (this is obscurely documented in the openssl docs).  tests that expect those connections to fail are "suddenly" succeeding
<slangasek> cjwatson: cdbs packages> and also anything that happens to be on debhelper compat 9 already? :)
<bdmurray> reported apport bug 878335 re ubiquity source package hook
<bdmurray> blueprint creation for UDS P
<bdmurray> review of Launchpad bugs for ones I'd like to see fixed
<bdmurray> reported launchpad bug 878532 regarding findSimilarBugs()
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 878335 in apport (Ubuntu) "ubiquity source package hook should move more bugs to grub-installer" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/878335
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 878532 in Launchpad itself "findSimilarBugs() in the Launchpad API returns strange things" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/878532
<bdmurray> reviewing bradf's bug report kit code and mako
<bdmurray> testing protovis (javascript data visualization tool)
<bdmurray> updated update-manager apport hook in natty (bug 878585)
<bdmurray> casper bug triage (http://status.qa.ubuntu.com/qapkgstatus/casper)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 878585 in update-manager (Ubuntu Natty) "update apport package hook in natty" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/878585
<cjwatson> slangasek: Indeed, but those were mostly manually converted after dpkg started adding -Werror=format-security to dpkg-buildflags output in Debian, so aren't a problem
<bdmurray> created udd search parameter to limit title matches (debian and ubuntu similar bugs) to recent ones
<bdmurray> modified udd similar title search to have a switch not to show bugs from the same tracker
<bdmurray> developer membership board meeting
<cjwatson> (with some multiarch exceptions, I realise ... still a small number)
<bdmurray> done
<stgraber> oh, and bdmurray is now a core-dev!
<cjwatson> ooh
<barry> \o/
<slangasek> jhunt: bug #849414> oh, sweet!  I look forward to your update on the bug :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 849414 in plymouth (Ubuntu Precise) "plymouthd crashed with SIGSEGV in ply_event_loop_process_pending_events()" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/849414
<slangasek> bdmurray: congrats on the coredevness :)
<bdmurray> slangasek: thanks
<slangasek> my go
<slangasek> * finished all my merges except the problematic ones
<slangasek> * took a merge from doko (libvisual-plugins), turned it into a Debian QA upload + sync, washed my hands of it
<slangasek>  * converted the package to dh(1) in the process, to further subvert http://people.debian.org/~cjwatson/dhstats.png
<slangasek> * merged adduser and pinged Debian maintainers about maybe taking our patches, because this is a horrible merge that includes .po file changes that were done wrong last time
<slangasek>  * grumbled about the lack of useful tools for merging .po files; wrote a script to DTRT on a bzr conflict, need to think about it some more before proposing it anywhere
<slangasek> * marked a bunch of packages Multi-Arch: foreign to solve ia32-libs installability; made a few more libraries M-A: same; sent out a call for volunteers to ubuntu-devel
<slangasek> * xorg-server patch to fix graphics corruption with metacity+compositing, courtesy of a conversation over beer with keithp
<slangasek> * attended the Oregon LoCo release party over the weekend, now scheming to have a multiarch Ubuntu LocalJam in December
<slangasek> * blueprints, blueprints, blueprints - if yours aren't on the schedule yet, let me know please
<slangasek> EOF
<slangasek> questions?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<barry> slangasek: yeah.  have you extrapolated that graph out to the date when we can kill off cdbs? :)
<slangasek> heh
<slangasek> no, but I'm reminded that I need to redo the maven helper as a dh sequence :)
<cjwatson> cdbs has been flat on that chart for a long time
<slangasek> it's dipping slightly of late, but not enough to meaningfully extrapolate
<barry> nice to see dh(1) gaining ground
<slangasek> converting all the java packages in one go would help ;)
<cjwatson> in fact that graph is a great illustration of psychohistory :)
<slangasek> hah
<barry> :-D
<bdmurray> As I mentioned earlier I've been looking at casper bugs a fair bit
<bdmurray> Trying to go through all of them actually and have some questions about some
<stgraber> that reminds me I need to upload a new casper getting rid of the remaining gconf stuff that's in there, started working on that last time bdmurray poked me :)
<slangasek> it's also an illustration of the inertia of a package that already works with one helper, even when the maintainer comes around to a different view... I updated mawk over the weekend to use dh(1) as well, and its packaging was pre-helper until now ;)
<doko> do we have a goal to get rid of cdbs?
<slangasek> I have a personal goal to get rid of cdbs
<bdmurray> bug 539027 hasn't appeared recently and seems like it could be closed
<slangasek> the cdbs maintainer has a personal goal to stab me in my sleep
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 539027 in casper (Ubuntu) "end_request: I/O error rebooting at end of install" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/539027
<slangasek> ANYWAY new topic
<cjwatson> that was probably due to the binaries needed after CD eject not getting cached properly
<cjwatson> if it's gone away, I think it's OK to close
<slangasek> bdmurray, cjwatson: there was a lubuntu-specific report this cycle about not getting the "please eject" message on the shutdown screen
<cjwatson> although I have no idea why it might have gone away
<bdmurray> slangasek: right I saw that and think its different than I/O errors
<slangasek> which seems that it could be explained by plymouth graphical splash correctly starting up, + /bin/plymouth not being available
<slangasek> you should only ever see the I/O error messages when plymouth graphical splash is *not* running
<cjwatson> /bin/plymouth is one of the cached paths though ...
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> then I guess it makes sense to close it
<cjwatson> perhaps it requires some files that cache_path doesn't pick up
<cjwatson> well, it's been cached since lucid
<slangasek> nah, /bin/plymouth is the client and pretty lightweight
<cjwatson> if lubuntu is seeing something like that then the caching isn't covering it; but I do think it's distinct from the I/O error bugs
<slangasek> doesn't use anything that isn't also used by the server
<cjwatson> slangasek: right, but plymouthd might load something dynamically?
<slangasek> hmm
<cjwatson> does it dlopen pango when you display a message by any chance?
<slangasek> not pango itself, but that's probably the first time it loads the font files and pango backends
<cjwatson> anyway, the upshot is, lubuntu's problem is separate, but let's assume for now that the I/O errors have gone
 * slangasek nods
<bdmurray> should there be a testcase for booting without splash to keep an eye out for issues like this?
<cjwatson> maybe
<cjwatson> I'm not very worried if it doesn't cause a visible problem with splash, though
<bdmurray> okay
<slangasek> right, seems that should be part of our troubleshooting toolkit rather than a test case
<bdmurray> stgraber: so then you are working on bug 610345 correct?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 610345 in casper (Ubuntu) "scripts/casper-bottom/22gnome_panel_data sets /apps/panel/global/disable_lock_screen to true, but the key is deprecated." [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/610345
<stgraber> bdmurray: yep
<stgraber> bdmurray: just assigned it to myself so it's clear to everyone ;)
<bdmurray> bug 747888 might have a fix in it
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 747888 in casper (Ubuntu) "casper script 25configure_init clobbers 22serialtty, serial console nearly unusable" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/747888
<stgraber> I'm fine making a pass through casper's bug post-UDS and test+upload the bugs that have patches attached or are easy to fix, that's if nobody beats me to it :)
<stgraber> we usually hear about these bugs quite late in the release cycle, would be nice to have as many as possible fixed early in the cycle this time
<slangasek> bdmurray: any other bugs?  (I have a couple here when you're done)
<bdmurray> I still regularly see duplicates of bug 220961
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 220961 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "[MASTER] ubiquity crashes instead of notifying the user of not enough disk space" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/220961
<slangasek> hmm
<stgraber> quite a few of them seem to be because of btrfs where apparently a 15GB partition just gives you 2-3GB of usable space (even if df doesn't agree ;))
<cjwatson> there is a specific bug about the btrfs case
<slangasek> shouldn't it do something better than crashing, though?
<slangasek> or is the bug title misleading/outdated?
<stgraber> Daniel's bug seems to be on ext not on btrfs though, so that's probaby a case where we didn't check for the right amount of free space pre-install
<stgraber> I guess we could check for free space on failure and give a more informative error message to the user, the real fix is to make sure we don't let them install though
<cjwatson> the real problem here is that the crash can be just about anywhere, including shell fragments
<slangasek> ah
<cjwatson> so it's not easy to intercept in any remotely consistent way
 * slangasek nods
<cjwatson> stgraber is probably on the money here
<stgraber> we probably should have some more tests done, trying to install with the strict minimum amount of disk space with each of the supported file systems
<slangasek> so the thought is that if we fix the btrfs behavior, we'll be getting fewer reports of this?
<bdmurray> and with installing restricted packages too
<stgraber> bdmurray: oh, indeed, good point
<cjwatson> there are a bunch of fudge factors on autopartitioning; it's the sort of thing that gets out of date easily
<stgraber> slangasek: yes, not sure how many of these bugs are related to btrfs though
<cjwatson> note that partitioning-from-scratch and auto-resize are a bit different :-/
<bdmurray> slangasek: at least duplicate bug 880263 isn't about btrfs
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 220961 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "duplicate for #880263 [MASTER] ubiquity crashes instead of notifying the user of not enough disk space" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/220961
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> so, will someone follow up on this?
<slangasek> stgraber: shall I assign 220961 to you for precise?
 * slangasek takes that as a yes ;)
<slangasek> moving on
<slangasek> bdmurray: other bugs?
<bdmurray> slangasek: They'll save for next meeting
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> a couple I wanted to throw out quickly, then
<slangasek> bug #381517
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 381517 in kbd (Ubuntu) "Settings in /etc/kbd/config are not read" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/381517
<slangasek> this is linked from bug #881079
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 881079 in upstart (Ubuntu) ""Waiting up to 60 more seconds for network configuration" at startup" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/881079
<slangasek> apparently some users are going out of their way to install obsolete packages, because the current ones aren't configurable...
<slangasek> cjwatson: is it reasonable to have these dpms configuration options ported over to console-setup or kbd?
<cjwatson> hm, not reading /etc/kbd/config is a bit crap - yes, we should port that stuff somehow
<cjwatson> we should probably nuke the obsolete packages from precise too
<slangasek> yes, definitely agreed
<slangasek> anyone interested in working on porting those features?
<stgraber> slangasek: sure (internet problem, sorry)
<slangasek> great opportunity to learn about how the console is set up :)
<cjwatson> I expect I can swear at it if nobody else wants to
<cjwatson> although some knowledge transfer wouldn't hurt
<slangasek> yes
<slangasek> barry: you know you want to write some shell code
<barry> slangasek: it's been a dream of mine since i was a child
<barry> slangasek: but hey, i'll give it a go.  i love asking lots of dumb questions :)
<slangasek> :)
<slangasek> done
<slangasek> the other one is a freaky cryptsetup problem
<slangasek> bug #877403
 * bdmurray bets that one was on his list
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 877403 in upstart (Ubuntu) "crypttab LUKS password shown in cleartext" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/877403
<slangasek> bdmurray: do you win the bet?
<bdmurray> nope I lose
<slangasek> so this is a weird bug - I can reproduce it but have no idea *why*
<slangasek> it didn't happen like that in past releases... and the behavior seems to vary based on things like whether you start out in details mode (booting w/o splash) vs switching to it w/ Esc
<slangasek> the bug is currently assigned to upstart... I don't know if something in upstart has changed that would account for this? jhunt?
<slangasek> well, we're at time anyway, so let's take that up after the meeting
<jhunt> Not that I'm aware of.
<slangasek> anyway, it doesn't make sense and it's ugly, so if anyone has ideas...
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<cjwatson> sounds like creeping termios horrors
<slangasek> now that I've eaten up all our meeting time, anyone else have something to say? :)
<slangasek> cjwatson: that's what I was wondering, but I can't figure out where it'd be coming from
<doko> promoted ruby1.9.1; now I have to find all packages, where we did disable building the ruby1.9 binary package ...
<slangasek> does that mean we have two rubies in main now?
<cjwatson> oh, security acked that in the end?
<doko> jdstrand pointed out that ruby1.8 has not much time left for security updates
<slangasek> does that mean the plan is to drop ruby1.8 from main by the end of the cycle?
<doko> so trying to get everything built for 1.9 would be better, and yes, it probably will require some work to drop 1.8 from main
 * slangasek nods
<doko> lucas only commits to do this for the wheezy timeframe, so it will require some work
<slangasek> doko: can you reach out to the server team on this?  ruby is in main primarily to support their use
<jdstrand> it would be ideal to get ruby1.8 demoted
<slangasek> (puppet)
<doko> otoh, we don't have the archs with build issues like sparc and ia64
<doko> slangasek, ok, will do (pinging Daviey)
<slangasek> the master list of package ownership (first draft) had foundations responsible for ruby1.8... I pushed back and said it was server's problem ;)
<doko> but I assume we can't demote both ruby versions because we have it used for more b-d's ...
<doko> and dropping tcl/tk 8.4 would maybe good ...
<slangasek> is that happening in Debian?
<doko> afaics, no
<slangasek> :/
<slangasek> doko: maybe we can look at that after UDS, then
<doko> sure
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Oct 26 16:10:53 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-10-26-15.03.moin.txt
<cjwatson> there aren't *that* many ruby build-deps in main though
<slangasek> thanks, all... sorry for the overrun
<stgraber> thanks
<barry> thanks!  see you in florida
<cjwatson> $ zcat /home/lp_archive/ubuntu/dists/precise/main/source/Sources.gz | grep-dctrl -nsPackage -FBuild-Depends,Build-Depends-Indep ruby | wc -l
<cjwatson> 15
<slangasek> cjwatson: right - the ones we actually *care* about are puppet and friends, and then there are a few others that are there opportunistically and would be cut if ruby wasn't in main, IMHO
 * pedro_ waves
<pedro_> sorry for being late
<nuclearbob> haven't started yet
 * bdmurray waves
<nuclearbob> howdy
<nuclearbob> doesn't look like the log is up from the last one, anybody remember who was going to chair?
<nuclearbob> I can if we're not sure
<nuclearbob> http://www.novarata.net/mootbot/ only seems to have logs up to the end of june
<patrickmw> go for it
<nuclearbob> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Oct 26 17:05:58 2011 UTC.  The chair is nuclearbob. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<nuclearbob> [TOPIC] Previous Actions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Previous Actions
<nuclearbob> I think Gema was working on blueprints, but she's out this afternoon
<nuclearbob> any other previous actions we need to go over?
<nuclearbob> all right
<nuclearbob> moving on
<nuclearbob> [TOPIC] Community Efforts/Testing
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Community Efforts/Testing
<nuclearbob> jibel, ursinha, anything on this?
<jibel> Hi o/
<Ursinha> nothing really from me :)
<nuclearbob> all right
<jibel> Not much from me now that Oneiric is out and Precise is on a very early stage
<nuclearbob> we've got a birds of a feather session scheduled for UDS
<nuclearbob> if anybody has the link, please throw that out, otherwise I can find it
<patrickmw> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-P/TestingInUbuntu
<nuclearbob> thanks patrickmw
<nuclearbob> we have a good list of talks lined up for that
<nuclearbob> so we look forward to seeing people there
<nuclearbob> anything else on this topic?
<nuclearbob> all right, moving on
<nuclearbob> [TOPIC] Automated/Systems Testing
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Automated/Systems Testing
<patrickmw> o/
<nuclearbob> go ahead, patrickmw
<patrickmw> new projects in progres:
<patrickmw> bootchart testing revised - boot speed testing will be testing daily for Precise. The testing that was done for Oneiric needs some improvements. Planning set for the automation sprint.
<patrickmw> fwts - Firmware Test Suite will be run daily for Precise.  A wrapper utility needs to be developed so it can be run in the lab. Planning set for the automation sprint.
<patrickmw> project updates:
<patrickmw> dx projects - DX team has started adding their projects to the QA daily builds. yay!
<patrickmw> that's all
<nuclearbob> thanks for the update, that all sounds great
<nuclearbob> I'm working on a proof of concept for a remotely accessible test running interface for the qa-regression-testing scripts
<nuclearbob> just a quick cgi that can be installed as a package on a newly created vm and return test results
<nuclearbob> I hope to have a basic implementation of that ready before UDS so we can determine if it's something we want to devote further resources to
<nuclearbob> and that's all I've got
<nuclearbob> anybody else?
<nuclearbob> all right, moving on
<nuclearbob> [TOPIC] Engineering Team Bug Status
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Engineering Team Bug Status
<bdmurray> I updated the update-manager hook for natty, bug 878585, thanks to jibel for pointing this out
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 878585 in update-manager (Ubuntu Natty) "update apport package hook in natty" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/878585
<bdmurray> I've been reviewing all the casper bug reports and looking at brad's bug report generation code and a different data visualization tool
<bdmurray> Also setting up blueprints for UDS
<nuclearbob> cool
<nuclearbob> anything else  bdmurray?
<bdmurray> I joined the ubuntu-core-dev team this week - thats it.
<nuclearbob> thanks
<nuclearbob> anything from hggdh or pedro_ ?
<pedro_> just to mention that tomorrow we're having a bug day for Nautilus : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20111027
<pedro_> so if you want to learn a bit more about bug triage or Nautilus/Gnome , please join us tomorrow the whole day your timezone
<pedro_> we hang out at #ubuntu-bugs
<pedro_> ..
<nuclearbob> sounds good
<nuclearbob> anything else from anyone on this topic?
<nuclearbob> all right
<nuclearbob> [TOPIC] Other Topics
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Other Topics
<nuclearbob> there are several blueprints registered for UDS-P using the other-p-qa prefix
<nuclearbob> is there a page with a list of those, or should I just post individual links?
<patrickmw> bottom of the same link above :)
<nuclearbob> oh, handy
<nuclearbob> thanks :)
<nuclearbob> anything else for other topics?
<nuclearbob> all right, last one
<nuclearbob> [TOPIC] Chair Selection
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Chair Selection
<nuclearbob> any volunteers?
<nuclearbob> max@ubuntu:~/vmtesting/oneiric/multipurpose$ shuf -e pedro_ bdmurray ursinha patrickmw jibel | head -1
<nuclearbob> patrickmw
<bdmurray> should there be one next week?
<Ursinha> next week is UDS, are we having quorum?
<nuclearbob> oh, I suppose we'll be in orlando
<nuclearbob> all right, next meeting is November 9
<nuclearbob> thanks everyone for attending, and we'll have quorum at UDS next week
<nuclearbob> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Oct 26 17:34:32 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-10-26-17.05.moin.txt
<pedro_> nuclearbob, thanks for chairing
<nuclearbob> no problem
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-10-27
<AlanBell> tumbleweed: hiya, are you planning on doing UDS audio feed recordings again?
<tumbleweed> AlanBell: yeah. I must also poke someone in canonical to publish official ones from lastUDS
<AlanBell> I have just been asking about that
<tumbleweed> any progress?
<AlanBell> no, not really, I think they record them and just file the recordings
<tumbleweed> well, that's at least solveable
<AlanBell> do you know who to poke about it?
<tumbleweed> no
 * tumbleweed gets the feeling he needs a todo list of people to harass at UDS :)
<valorie> " todo list of people to harass at UDS "
<valorie> \o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-10-28
<wendar> o/
<coolbhavi> hey wendar
<wendar> hi
<ajmitch> hello
<wendar> pinging the others
<coolbhavi> hi ajmitch
<wendar> okay, I've pinged all
<wendar> let's go ahead and start (3 is a quorum, in case we need to vote on any proposals)
<wendar> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Oct 28 18:06:28 2011 UTC.  The chair is wendar. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<wendar> [TOPIC] Review action items
<wendar> [LINK] http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AppReviewBoard/Agenda
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review action items
 * ajmitch has not found any that are really ready to be voted on yet
<wendar> We notified all old applications of the Oneiric update, so we can mark that done.
 * coolbhavi is a bit new to this so getting into grips with it now
<wendar> IIRC, the notice about old archive contents being copied over was taken care of, but stgraber was going to double-check on the longer-term implications
<wendar> that is, right now, our process is that we don't put anything into the archive of the development release, so it's always empty when the new archive for the next development release is created
<ajmitch> which is why there's no precise directory on extras.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/
<coolbhavi> hmm
<ajmitch> so we've got a lot of new submissions for oneiric now, not all of them are great
<wendar> yes
<wendar> you've done some scanning this week
<ajmitch> do we want to run through the list here, or just talk about general problems with them?
<wendar> if we have any ready to go (I think not?) we can review here
<wendar> but, general problems is probably more useful now
<wendar> I noted a few of them in the reviewer instruction documents
<wendar> source tarballs that can't be built
<wendar> and binary packages instead of source packages
<ajmitch> closest that I have ready to go are the askubuntu-lens again, blocked on a SRU which was uploaded to -proposed this week, and maybe harmonySEQ if the permission problems with it can be sorted (/dev/snd/seq)
<ajmitch> the common problem with java submissions is submitting a tarball full of .jar files
<ajmitch> one of those which I saw is even in a PPA like that, where the source package has multiple .jar files & debian/install to copy them into place
<wendar> yeah
<wendar> the short term solution is to individually guide developers to what we're looking for
<wendar> but, longer term, we need documentation on these pieces
<ajmitch> that problem is solvable, but they bundle a *lot* of upstream .jar files with differing licenses, not all of which are compatible
<wendar> so, the developers can reach what we need independently
<coolbhavi> I have a small input here
<ajmitch> educating developers on license compatibility is probably trickier than some technical documentation
<wendar> coolbhavi: yes, that's great, go ahead
<wendar> coolbhavi: new ideas are much needed and greatly appreciated :)
<coolbhavi> yes how about a elaborate explanation of dfsg and free licenses on a wiki page such that devs understand in a simple language?
<wendar> it'd be useful to have something like that on developer.ubuntu.com
<wendar> we have longer explanations in the Ubuntu and Debian documentation
<wendar> but, if we can find a way to teach it more simply, that'd be great
<ajmitch> you'd probably want to link to something like http://www.gnu.org/licenses/licenses.html
<coolbhavi> yes might be too trivial but I guess covering main parts of licenses so that it gets in a simplified language to help devs
<wendar> http://people.debian.org/~bap/dfsg-faq.html
<wendar> http://opensource.org/docs/osd
<coolbhavi> would be hepful... something similar or a link on developer.ubuntu.com might help
<wendar> I think a combination of a clear and short explanation, with links to "more reading" at the bottom might be good
<coolbhavi> +1 here
<ajmitch> that reminds me of the point I added on the arb blueprint - looking over developer.ubuntu.com & making sure that documentation is clear, and that it matches the processes
<wendar> coolbhavi: you'll be here at UDS next week?
<coolbhavi> yes m flying tomorrow
<coolbhavi> ll be there :)
<wendar> coolbhavi: great, I can connect you with David Planella, this is something we could get done this cycle
<coolbhavi> sure wendar
<wendar> ajmitch: yes, an overall review of developer.ubuntu.com is needed
<wendar> ajmitch: I've found a few spots (like the description of the ARB) that need some updates
<wendar> ajmitch: not huge updates, but bits and pieces
<ajmitch> yeah, things like app submission assuming that everything should have a price
<wendar> yup
<ajmitch> we'll need to sort out, probably in a dicussion at UDSm how much hand-holding & work we're going to do
<wendar> I'll add those two as action items, and as topics for the session next week
<wendar> yes, that too
<coolbhavi> Or why not make a check in the portal itself if its a free license or not ... If not the portal shouldnt allow someone to submit apps
<ajmitch> coolbhavi: I think it already does that
<wendar> it checks whether they say it's a free license
<ajmitch> because the reviewing process is used for both commercial/proprietary & ARB apps
<wendar> the ARB doesn't even look at it unless it's marked as a free software license
<wendar> but, developers don't always understand what's needed
<wendar> or, may have license problems internally
<wendar> (that they didn't realize they had)
<coolbhavi> Oh okay I still do  not have proper access to the portal so I havent checked
<ajmitch> right, they can put a copy of the GPL in their tarball, but not submit source along with it
<ajmitch> nor do I, I'm just going from the public parts that I can see :)
<wendar> coolbhavi: yes, we'll get access set up next week
<wendar> the new ARB queue is set up now
<coolbhavi> great
<wendar> it has nothing in it now
<ajmitch> will they still be copied into LP bugs?
<wendar> but, we'll start moving things into it
<wendar> ajmitch: we should be able to stop copying to LP bugs now
<wendar> ajmitch: which will help a lot :)
<ajmitch> ok, then is there a way that I could get a list of the queue withouth screenscraping developer.ubuntu.com? :)
<wendar> but, I haven't run an app all the way through the new process yet
<wendar> ajmitch: a list of the queue?
 * ajmitch is using lplib at the moment to pull the list of bugs & make sure that there are notes locally or at least an entry about them on my local system
<ajmitch> just something I hacked up very quickly to make sure that I can keep on top of them
<coolbhavi> ajmitch, something like sponsors queue?
<wendar> what MyApps has now is a first approximation of our process
<wendar> so, we'll need to try it out, and let the developers know if/where we need changes
<ajmitch> wendar: right, I've subscribed to the developerportal bugs, I'll file them there
<wendar> ajmitch: ah, cool, sounds like a useful tool
<ajmitch> just looking at the list, there are a couple there that were up for review on the debian-mentors list, but didn't get anywhere
<wendar> ajmitch: so, I'm sitting in a session right now on how we get good reports on how the queues are doing, and keep on top of them
<ajmitch> wendar: ok :)
<coolbhavi> :)
<wendar> ajmitch: so, it's very llikely we can get what you need from that tool built into the web interface
<ajmitch> that would be nice
<wendar> ajmitch: yeah, I want to make sure we don't fall back into REVU, where submissions sit for months or years without progress :(
<wendar> it's a real risk, we're already falling behind the rate of submission :(
<ajmitch> wendar: the one I'm looking at, openssn, even has packaging in the debian pkg-games repository which is closer to what we need than what was submitted to the ARB
<wendar> interesting
<ajmitch> I wonder if we should try & work with some of these to get them into debian
<wendar> so, maybe the best recommendation is to help him get it into debian?
<wendar> aye
<wendar> I think that's quite valuable
<wendar> help them find contacts or sponsors in Debian
<ajmitch> grub-customizer fails the 'no system apps' part of the checklist, was also on REVU & on mentors.debian.net
<wendar> also, I'm a DM and lfaraone is a DD
 * ajmitch is a DD, not sure about the others
<wendar> ajmitch: yeah, it modifies a pretty fundamental part of the system
<wendar> we can ask cjwatson about it, and see if it's likely to have any chance in Debian
<ajmitch> apart from that, it'd be nice to get in, get it synced to precise & then into -backports
<wendar> yeah, if the code is good, I can see it being a valuable tool
<wendar> it needs a grub-knowledgable sponsor
<ajmitch> we also had listed somewherewe had listed somewhere a general guideline for size of applications, is that still around?
<wendar> it's not a hard rule
<ajmitch> sorry if I'm a bit all over the place this morning :)
<wendar> but ~10,000 lines
<wendar> ajmitch: np, that's what the IRC sessions are for, gathering "other business"
<ajmitch> rstudio will need to go into the distro then, sloccount said it was about 100k
<ajmitch> it's a mix of C++ & java, currently has no packaging
<wendar> ah, that would be too bad, it's one of the best apps we've gotten :(
<ajmitch> yeah
<ajmitch> I was just surprised at the size of it
<wendar> if it's clean code, and non risky, it could still be fine
<wendar> (like, it's not modifying core systems, making network connections, etc)
<ajmitch> it could be, but someone would need to step up & do the packaging - the java part is for a GWT web frontend
<wendar> yeah, I'm surprized
<wendar> iamfuzz said he'd be willing to do the packaging for it
<ajmitch> great
<ajmitch> though I still feel that something of that size & quality may be a better fit for the distro, rather than something to copy over every 6 months :)
<wendar> yeah, it seems like the kind of thing we should mentor to move up into Debian
<wendar> I think the developer would be open to that
<wendar> but, getting it into extras for Oneiric is a good easy introduction
<ajmitch> rstudio was the one where the submitter asked about building against newer versions of boost & qt - both of which aren't available yet in the distro
<wendar> ah, I hadn't read the follow-up on that one
<wendar> so, the versions in Oneiric weren't sufficient?
<wendar> (I asked, didn't see the answer yet)
<ajmitch> they're sufficiant for now
<ajmitch> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-app-review-board/+bug/881515/comments/4
<wendar> looking at his README, it looked like the versions in Oneiric were what he needed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 881515 in Ubuntu Application Review Board "Application Review Request: rstudio-v0.94" [Undecided,New]
<wendar> ah, got it
<wendar> so, the answer to that is "no, it's not possible"
<ajmitch> I would not want to ever allow apps to bundle newer versions of libraries like that
<wendar> so, we'd have to hold off updating in the distribution until the library is updated
<wendar> ajmitch: want me to take that one?
<ajmitch> sure
<wendar> will do
<ajmitch> it's going to be hard to keep track of who's looking at what if we split them up between us
<wendar> the shepherd idea we used before helped with that
<wendar> but, it also meant some submissions got no attention
<wendar> if the shepherd ran out of time
<wendar> something to talk about next week
<wendar> (and, I'm not sure how that'll work out in the new interface)
<wendar> I had a thought this week
<ajmitch> depending on when the uds session is, I may not be able to attend remotely
<wendar> do you know how the patch pilot's program works?
<ajmitch> a roster of people who look at the sponsoring queue & pick items off it
<wendar> instead of assigning responsibility by submission, we do it by time
<wendar> yeah
<wendar> a person agrees to a particular 4-hour period once a month
<wendar> and, in that time they're available to answer questions
<ajmitch> we'd probably want to track when something was last touched
<wendar> and work through as much of the queue as possible
<wendar> yup, we'd have to make sure there was available info on what had been done
<wendar> so, the next pilot could pick it up
<ajmitch> with LP we can set bugs to incomplete if we're waiting for info, and it lists the last changed on the overview page
<coolbhavi> why dont have a wiki page with all the TODO's and updates and ownerships to be updated every week maybe and the responsibility of updation is owned up by someone so we can have a spoc maintainability of tracker?
<wendar> ajmitch: the new system has that too
<ajmitch> wendar: great, was about to ask that
<wendar> it gets hidden from the list needing review
<wendar> until the developer responds
<wendar> coolbhavi: that's a good idea, especially the interface we get isn't quite good enough to start with
<ajmitch> coolbhavi: it may work, just depends on how awkward it is to keep in sync with new submissions
<ajmitch> we've obviously seen quite a few new submissions since the new site went up
<wendar> coolbhavi: it can be a pain to manually update, so hopefully we can automate that quickly
<wendar> ideally, it'd be a report page in the interface, with no manual maintenance work
<ajmitch> the simple tool that I hacked up is dead simple it just reads the statuses & bug links out of a .yaml file :)
<wendar> ajmitch: cool
<ajmitch> yaml just because it's close to freeform text
<coolbhavi> yes thats another part as we get more active, submissions will increase I guess. Agreed.
<wendar> I haven't been updating statuses
<wendar> (I have that on our list to talk about next week too, although we might not need it if we're switching away from LP)
<ajmitch> I've mostly just been keepign my own statuses, such as ones I haven't looked at, those that need packaging done, etc
<wendar> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-p-app-review-board
<wendar> ajmitch: it'd be nice to get that somewhere we share it
<wendar> ajmitch: is it crontab-able?
<ajmitch> wendar: not particularly, I'll need to spend more than 30 minutes on it
<wendar> I do feel the pain, I totally missed a response from one of the developers on a package I was shepherding :(
<ajmitch> all I wanted initially was for something to try & make sure I wrote notes about every submission
<ajmitch> I can work on it some more if you think it'll be useful
<wendar> ajmitch makes sense
<wendar> it'd be cool to take a look at it
<wendar> I don't know, if we can get the features in the web interface quickly, I don't want to suck up your time
<wendar> I guess we'll see
<ajmitch> I'll probably still use something like it for my private notes :)
<wendar> yup, makes sense
<wendar> if you do keep working on it, share what's useful
<ajmitch> some of them aren't really publishable once I got to the 3rd or 4th submission with .jar files & license violations
<wendar> heh :)
<wendar> curse silently, teach kindly :)
<ajmitch> right :)
<coolbhavi> alright guys I am sorry that I have to leave in the middle as its way past midnight n m very sleepy now ... See you at the UDS next week :)
<ajmitch> coolbhavi: thanks for stopping in, see you round :)
<wendar> coolbhavi: we're pretty much ready to wrap up
<ajmitch> OK, I guess we've got some points that can be discussed at UDS anyway
<wendar> take a look at the blueprint and let me know if you want to add anything
<wendar> one final thing, chair for next meeting
<wendar> ajmitch: do you want to take the next rotation?
<ajmitch> sure
<wendar> cool
<coolbhavi> :)
<wendar> I'll take the minutes and distribute them
<ajmitch> thanks
<wendar> and update the agenda for next time
<wendar> thanks all!
<coolbhavi> thanks so much
<coolbhavi> see you at UDS
<coolbhavi> :)
<wendar> see you there :)
<wendar> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Oct 28 19:03:59 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-10-28-18.06.moin.txt
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-10-29
<amithkk> Anybody here?
<jasef> No
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-10-30
<pangolin> 30 minutes until IRC team meeting?
<io> pangolin: 7
<jussi> o/
<nhandler> o/
<Tm_T> o7
<jussi> oh we have nhandler! excellent!
<jussi> nhandler: since you are here, I'd say its about your turn to chair, wouldnt you agree?
<pangolin> o/
<topyli> o/
<topyli> hi nhandler :)
<ryanakca> o/
<pangolin> hello everybody!
<nhandler> jussi: I can chair, but it will take me a while to get to the post-meeting stuff
 * pangolin hugs nhandler 
<pangolin> good to see you dude :)
<jussi> nhandler: no probs, as long as its within about a week we should be good
<topyli> nhandler: that's fine
<jussi> nhandler: so, shall we get this show on the road ?
<nhandler> #startmeeting Ubuntu IRC Team Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Sun Oct 30 18:05:03 2011 UTC.  The chair is nhandler. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu IRC Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<nhandler> #topic Review Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu IRC Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Review Bugs
<jussi> Right, so we have a new bug
<jussi> bug 883119
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 883119 in ubuntu-community "Issues needlessly in the IRC Council's private issue tracker" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/883119
<topyli> it's an effort to open up stuff and empower the team more
<nhandler> My one concern would be that we will end up with long discussions for each task (sort of like the ML), making it harder to get stuff done
<Seeker`> nhandler: surely you want input from people though?
<topyli> it does require us to decide at some point that we have enough information and make a decision
<nhandler> Seeker`: Input to an extent it good and constructive. However, it sometimes reaches the point of two many people trying to weigh in on an issue, making it hard to take any action
<pangolin> The bug report says the point is to be more open. I would think that means more input as well.
<Seeker`> nhandler: so having no input from the community, and no way of anyone outside the IRCC tracking progress on any IRCC issues is better?
<jussi> yes, I think it encourages us to be decisive. However it also requires the community to play their part and accept the decisions that get made.
<Seeker`> because in the past, when there hasn't been a public way of seeing that things are being done, the IRCC just sits on issues for 9 months
<nhandler> Seeker`: There is a difference (and should be) between a bug for tracking a task and an open discussion for gathering feedback. We don't want the two to become too merged
<topyli> when we discussed our need for an issue tracker originally, we opted against using launchpad just because some issues are sensitive. we now have our own tracker where the sensitive issues can be handled, so we could use launchpad for all the rest really
<Seeker`> nhandler: why spread the information out futher than it needs to be?
<topyli> nhandler: true, not everything is suitable to be handled as a bug
<Seeker`> you could have a mailing list thread and a bug for each issue, but there isn't a particularly good for having two unrelated streams of conversation about the same topic, when the information about progress of the bug is mainly given through status changes, and discussion done though commenting
<Seeker`> *particularly good reason
<topyli> Seeker`: each lauchpad bug is automatically a "mailing list thread" for interested people already
<Seeker`> topyli: I mean the comments section of the bug is fine for discussing the bug, why make a seperated only-related-by-name thread for discussion on the mailing list
<topyli> there is a rationale for that too. archives are better in one place
<Seeker`> which seemed to be what nhandler was saying
<topyli> but still...
<jussi> In any case, I think at least some of the bugs - many of the items that got sent to the ircc ML previously could have been bugs.
<jussi> (on LP)
<ikonia> can you give an example of a bug ?
<ikonia> (or what would be used as a bug)
<jussi> ikonia: No policy for shell providers in #ubuntu
<jussi> for example
<ikonia> so you're treating it as issues/action items
<ikonia> just trying to fully differentiate the using the word bug
<topyli> ikonia: pretty much. bug is just a word
<ikonia> totally
<ikonia> just checking that
<ikonia> if you meant "bugs" or "the word bug"
<nhandler> Yes. (Which is in a sense hwhat most items discussed in meetings and on the ML are)
<nhandler> So it looks like we tend to agree that using LP is fine for most of the tasks. We just aren't quite sure on the full details
<Tm_T> +1 from me too about using LP for the tasks/issues
<pangolin> +1
<topyli> i'd use the launchpad bug i created to test if making decisions that way works. meta! :)
<nhandler> It might be useful to trial this with a bug or two and sort out the details based on a bit of trial/error
<topyli> nhandler: agreed
<jussi> nhandler: yeah, trial and error through this one.
<nhandler> #agree Perform some trial/error of using LP to track some tasks to determine the details of how this will work
<jussi> nhandler: +d
<nhandler> Hmm...Wiki says #agree is an alias ;)
<nhandler> #agreed Perform some trial/error of using LP to track some tasks to determine the details of how this will work
<topyli> we can move an issue or two more there for testing when something suitable comes along
<pangolin> the bot is not super verbose
<nhandler> +1 topyli
<pangolin> you might not see anything from it but it did pick it up
<jussi> For all those attending, if you have a bug, let have it! :)
<nhandler> #topic Review Last Meeting Action Items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu IRC Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Review Last Meeting Action Items
<ikonia> ok - I have a query regarding the bug ?
<topyli> report bugs against ubuntu-community and assign to ubuntu-irc council, no?
<ikonia> I agree and think it's a great think to have a public tracking tool like launchpad
<jussi> ikonia: I was going to report the FB bug, but feel free to if you want.
<ikonia> I'm pleased
<ikonia> however - query, will the bugs be looked at and addressed or will they just be ignored
<jussi> ikonia: we go through them every meeting, so I hope so.
<nhandler> ikonia: They will get reviewed at the start of each meeting (fixed action item)
<ikonia> eg: if I put a comment on there - is it going to be taken on board or will it just be ifnored
<ikonia> jussi: with respect, that's currenlty not happening
<jussi> (like we are doing now)
<ikonia> I just want to know if it's worth my effort to do work with them, or not
<topyli> i think we'll also get mail when new bugs are assigned to us
<ikonia> being honest - not trying to be a pain
<jussi> ikonia: We will look at them.
<nhandler> ikonia: We might not publically discuss each and every comment, but they will be read (and the bug will be discussed)
<ikonia> topyli: again - with respect, mail does not work well with the council
<Seeker`> jussi: are the currently any bugs filed on the private IRCC tracker?
<topyli> ikonia: mail works, reply time varies :(
<jussi> Seeker`: only the one open one I just mentioned
<ikonia> nhandler: no, I don't expect a public discussion on them, but I expect feedback as to what's being going on
<ikonia> the lubuntu ops issue is a real cause for concern and I see no feedback or involvement coming back on that
<Seeker`> jussi: sorry, whichwas that?
<jussi> Seeker`: floodbots not being open. Theres also the lubuntu issue pending, but thats not actually in the tracker last time I looked, Its on the ML.
<ikonia> so if I was to log a bug around that, I want to know if I put options on there they will be on the agenda, or if they will just be ignored, as is current
<Seeker`> so nhandler progressed the meeting prematurely?
<ikonia> jussi: I will raise the floodbot bug
<topyli> ikonia: we'll announce a call for #lubuntu-* ops soon enough. it's not the most urgent thing, they're doing fine afaik
<ikonia> topyli: did you hear what the concerns are ?
<Seeker`> jussi: also, how long has the floodbot issue been on the private tracker?
<ikonia> why as there been no feedback to the concerns
<topyli> should be done so they can fully integrate with the team
<ikonia> what is the point of raising these concerns if it's just ignored
<topyli> ikonia: yes i have heard the concerns
<ikonia> this is the issue I'm raising as part of the bug tracker
<ikonia> what is the point of raising a bug if it's ignord
<ikonia> ignored
<topyli> no point in rising such a bug
<ikonia> (I am using that issue as an example, not the be-all-end-all)
<ikonia> right - so thank you, raising bugs is pointless
<nhandler> See	I have a bit of lag, and ikonia raised a new point as I changed the topic ;)
<ikonia> glad that's confirmed
<topyli> hard to say beforehand what is going to be fixed and what will be "wontfixed", better just file the bug anyway
<ikonia> no, sorry
<ikonia> won't fix is the same as not-hearing-taking-action
<ikonia> which is where we currently are
<ikonia> so it's another pointless process
<jussi> ikonia: the fact is, they are public, everyone, including the CC can see if the job is being done. If its not, I assume you, the other ops and eventually the CC will be on our backs.
<ikonia> instead of ignoring issues, you can just mark them as "won't fix"
<ikonia> jussi: clearly not
<Seeker`> jussi: how long has the floodbot issue been on the private tracker?
<jussi> Seeker`: not that long, why ?
<Seeker`> can you give a date?
<pangolin> going to guess since they were first started
<topyli> 19th this month, Seeker`
<pangolin> but I don't see why the floodbots need to be open
<ikonia> pangolin: they don't
<pangolin> So what is the issue with them?
<topyli> the problem is they're dependent on one person
<Seeker`> How on earth can the IRCC claim to be effective if its own members don't even know what has been raised as a bug or not?
<ikonia> pangolin: I'll raise the bug - and you can view it all in detail there
<topyli> Seeker`: where did that come from?
<topyli> ikonia: you did it before, you can do it again :)
<pangolin> Can we please try to get through one discussion at a time.
<Seeker`> I refer you to topyli's email to the irc list on the 28th october: 'I'm aware of the floodbots ownership and implementation being less
<Seeker`> than optimal, but I was not aware it has been raised as an issue.
<jussi> right, so how about the next bug
<Seeker`> Hopefully, we can liberate the bots someday.'
<topyli> Seeker`: right. i hadn't looked at it
<ikonia> topyli: did what ?
<Seeker`> 9 days after it appeared on the IRCC issue tracker, topyli still wasn't aware of it
<topyli> "the ircc" was aware, i wasn't
<ikonia> (sorry if I've lost track)
<jussi> can we move on to bug 788503 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 788503 in ubuntu-community "IRC Guidelines too #ubuntu centric" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/788503
<ikonia> jussi: why ?
<ikonia> jussi: why are we moving on in the middle of a discussion
<topyli> Seeker`: we don't all have to be on every issue, and i specifically do not deal with technical stuff
<Seeker`> topyli: there is currently only one issue on the private tracker.
<topyli> i know
<Seeker`> so how can you not be aware of the single bug that has been filed. To ignore it you must have at least looked to see if there was anything there, to know it was technical.
<Seeker`> and then you'd be aware that it was filed
<topyli> i've probably seen it and ignored as it's not my "department"
<jussi> Seeker`: that issue is something that is my peice, and I know topyli was aware of it, Im almost certain he has just forgotten.
<topyli> if you want to press me personally about that, let's do it after the meeting
<Tm_T> I agree with topyli on that
<Tm_T> (we have only certain amount of time for the meeting)
<Seeker`> members of the IRCC should at least be aware of the issues raised against the IRCC, even if they aren't actively part of dealing with it. Its not that big a job to remember the entire 1 issue.
<topyli> jussi and i finally did have a look at m4v's guidelines draft, and while it still needs a little love, it's a great step forward
<topyli> it does a good job removing the #ubuntu-centric pieces of the guidelines and makes them more useful. i'm sure well have a good draft for team review soon
<ikonia> has the topic just changed ?
<nhandler> ikonia: We moved on to the other open bug
<jussi> We have an etherpad open with it on - you can take a look yourselves and "chat" there about suggestions etc for it: http://notes.kde.org/ubuntuguidelines
<topyli> even jussi's etherpad is kde :(
<jussi> hehe
<nhandler> Thanks for the great work topyli and jussi
<jussi> SO hopefully we can have this draft finished for voting on by the next meeting - I hope that many of you can get over there and chip in
<nhandler> Anything else to say about this issue for now?
<jussi> nhandler: nothing except hopefully most people will have a look and input
<ikonia> I didn't even know it was being re-written
<nhandler> Alright, so *really* moving on to old actions
<jussi> ikonia: bugs been open for a while :)
<nhandler> I only see one action
<topyli> ikonia: it's a bug on launchpad :)
<nhandler> This is the one about the #lubuntu ops list
<nhandler> topyli: Want to give a brief update?
<jussi> right, lubuntu ops list. Ive created the LP groups, topyli has been liasing a bit with the lubuntu people.
<topyli> well, the lubuntu folks hoped for a post-release breathing space, but we should issue a call for ops on the lubuntu channels
<ikonia> topyli: if this going to be a genuine selection process, or rubberstamping to tick boxes ?
<topyli> hopefully many the existing ops will re-apply and maybe we'll get more even
<topyli> ikonia: just like any other call for ops
<ikonia> topyli: great, so it's going through the standard process ?
<jussi> yes
<ikonia> excellent
<topyli> yeah
<pangolin> How do the current lubuntu ops feel about having to re-apply for ops?
<jussi> pangolin: we had reaction for that last time, at least some of them are ok with that, and expect it.
<pangolin> I mean what is the general feedback you got from them if any?
<topyli> variably, to be honest. but that's to be expected. however, it's hot a huge effort especially if you're already a well respected op on a channel
<topyli> s/hot/not/
 * knome giggles
<Seeker`> why do they have to reapply?
<jussi> Seeker`: read the logs from last ircc meeting :)
<Tm_T> long and complicated story so ^
<Seeker`> dothe people that will be assessing them for membership actually know the lubuntu ops?
<pangolin> My concern is that perhaps a currently respected op might not get approved and that will/could alienate some of the lubuntu people.
<topyli> these people are the ircc, and they will have to consult the lubuntu team
<ikonia> if it's the standard process, you can feedback when the public call is given
<topyli> pangolin: that's a valid concern
<Seeker`> unless the ircc have spent a significant amount of time interacting / watching the ops, are they 'qualified' to make judgement to who should/shouldn't be an op. The lubuntu team has clearly chosen their current ops for a reason
<nhandler> Seeker`: And they are able to provide feedback.
<topyli> Seeker`: the ircc is qualified for choosing ops for the ubuntu channels, yes
<Seeker`> but surely the lubuntu team feel that their current ops are suitable ops, or they wouldn't have chosen them
<jussi> Seeker`: I think we have been through this pretty well at the last meeting.
<Seeker`> topyli: I would expect the ircc to be active in channels under their remit enough to know likely candidates for ops, and therefore have enough information about individuals to make a balanced judgement about their suitabiliy for ops
<topyli> Seeker`: impossible
<topyli> which is why we have open calls for operators
<Seeker`> how can you know whether someone is suitable to be an op without actually seeing them active in channels?
<pangolin> bioterror: You have any input on the issue?
<topyli> Seeker`: magic, logs, and asking around
<pangolin> by asking other ops what they think
<Seeker`> (that applies in general, not just to lubuntu ops it would seem)
<nhandler> Seeker`: We do look over some logs, we See	We look over logs, talk to other people in the channel, and use our personall exeperiences of interacting with the people to make decisions (among other factors)
<bioterror> I noticed we have some operators there on the lists, that has never gained the status from chanserv, so hard to say how they act when the situation requires some actions
<topyli> Seeker`: you probably should have been around when the current operator approval process was (very carefully) discussed and decided
<Myrtti> pardon me for being ignorant
<Myrtti> but how can an op not have gained the operator status from chanserv, bioterror
<jussi> Myrtti: ie. added to the ops list but never used it
<Myrtti> sorry, but just asking to get a clear picture
<bioterror> yeah, never used them
<Myrtti> right
<bioterror> but as you've seen, we hardly have need for it ;)
<bioterror> we've been lucky, so far
<Seeker`> topyli: sadly, I can't be on irc 24/7, due to real life issues. Which is why I haven't applied for any leadership positions.
<topyli> right
<nhandler> Alright, we are about out of time. I don't see any items on the agenda, but are there any other quick items we should discuss?
<Seeker`> didn't jussi want to bring up his mailing list idea?
<jussi> Seeker`: I will let it be discussed and thought about till next meeting - its not an urgent item
<topyli> Myrtti also had an idea worth thinking about, but i think both can continue on the ML for now
<ikonia> I have a quick one as nhandler and tsimpson are here
<ikonia> is the council going to be returned to a 5 man team shortly ?
<topyli> good question :)
<Myrtti> ikonia: tsimpson isn't
<ikonia> sorry, I thought I saw him earlier
<nhandler> ikonia: I might not be around on IRC much, but I am following all mailing list discussions, bugs, and checking up on IRC.
<jussi> ikonia: yes, because both those members terms finish next month
<ikonia> nhandler: ok - so you are saying your %100 active/effective
<ikonia> jussi: that doesn't mean they can't re-join for another 2 years
<ikonia> (or shouldn't)
<Myrtti> s/re-join/nominate themselves/
<pangolin> I can't wait to see who nominates themselves for the IRCC next election
<nhandler> ikonia: No, I am not as active as I was (due to some other obligations), but I am still around and completing my actions.
<ikonia> nhandler: sorry, bad wording, you're still effective
<nhandler> And yes, I am keeping that in mind with my term coming to an end
<ikonia> nhandler: and it's not a critisism, but there is a perception that we have been 2 men down for some time
<ikonia> it seems a reasonable question to ask
<Seeker`> nhandler: how many irc meetings have you been present at in the last, say, 2 months?
<nhandler> Seeker`: I can't make one meeting per month due to timezones. I've missed maybe 1 meeting that I can normally attend
<nhandler> And I think I am going to end the meeting now, we can discuss this stuff later if desired
<nhandler> Thanks for coming everyone
<nhandler> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sun Oct 30 19:00:49 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-10-30-18.05.moin.txt
<topyli> thanks everyone
<pangolin> thank you.
<jussi> thanks! see you all next time and lets see those bugs if you havem, as well as contributions and suggestions to the netherpad.
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-10-22
<bootlkjkgf> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/55128914/Shared%20Pics/four-quadrants-organizational-culture.jpg
<jdstrand> hi!
<tyhicks> hello!
<mdeslaur> \o
<jjohansen> \o
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Oct 22 18:03:40 2012 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> UDS is next week. Be sure to review the blueprints in LP and subscribe to any you are interested in this week. Don't mark yourself essential unless you actually are :)
<jdstrand> doing that early in the week would be most helpful
<jdstrand> Quantal is released and Raring is in pre-freeze
<jdstrand> ReleaseCycle duties have been performed, so be sure to update your trees, etc for these changes
<jdstrand> (ReleaseCycle duties for the security team, of course)
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I'm in the happy place this week
<jdstrand> I did release cycle duties for quantal and raring this morning. it looks like I may have a little bit more on that since a cron job is now a bit noisy
<jdstrand> I have a secure boot task to do
<jdstrand> I also have python3.2 and python3.1 I am working on. hopefully both will go out this week
<mdeslaur> \o/
<jdstrand> I am also scheduled for some openjdk cross training
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you'r eup
<micahg> isn't that Europe?
<jdstrand> micahg: ?
<mdeslaur> hehe
<jdstrand> oh haha
<micahg> nevermind :)
<mdeslaur> I'm on triage this week
<jdstrand> :)
<mdeslaur> and am working on testing the mysql updates...hopefully I'll get them out this week
<mdeslaur> and after that, I'm preparing my travel laptop for uds
<mdeslaur> and that's it for me
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
 * jdstrand has to prepare for UDS as well
<sbeattie> I'm continuing to look at display manager confinement this week
<sbeattie> I also need to prep for UDS a bit this week
<sbeattie> as well as poke at the release cycle stuff (hopefully my debmirror will start working again :/)
<sbeattie> I'm also on tap for the openjdk cross-training stuff this week
<sbeattie> (is there a master list of security team related blueprints?)
<sbeattie> I think that's it for me.
<jdstrand> sbeattie: mdeslaur emailed it. I have had a hard time finding an easy way to find them in LP
<jdstrand> I might have to approve them...
 * jdstrand adds that to the list
<sbeattie> okay, if that's the one from a week or two ago, I went through those, just wanted to make sure I was up on ay newer ones.
<sarnold> sbeattie: 5076E225.8020302@canonical.com
<sarnold> ah, too late :) hehe
<sbeattie> alright, micahg, you're up
<micahg> I'm working on webkit for oneiric, need to publish webkit for precise, and some other browser related updates
<micahg> I have a short day Friday and will probably need to do some UDS prep as well
<micahg> I think that's it for me
<micahg> tyhicks: tag
<tyhicks> I'm done updating my machine for the new release cycle, so I can push out the latest batch of ruby updates in a little bit (they're already tested and ready to go)
<tyhicks> I've got UDS prep to do
<tyhicks> I want to set up a ppa with the packages needed to poke at the AppArmor DBus prototype in Quantal
<tyhicks> Then I'll continue working on the patch set (I'll be getting with jjohansen to figure out what are the most important next steps)
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<jjohansen> tyhicks: \o/
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> I have yet another version of a fix (this time without violating the kref api) to bug#1056078 to finish testing and push upstream.
<jjohansen> I have some UDS prep (subscribe to blueprints, ...), and release cycle updates to do
<jjohansen> I really need to look at Casey's LSM stacking patch in detail so we can get feedback into it, especially any parts that affect the current/next versions of apparmor.
<jjohansen> I will be poking at my notes on the display manager confinement, and meeting with sbeattie on it this week.
<jjohansen> I have a little more work to do on getting the env filtering beta up, that I will finish this week and once that done I will be working on getting the stacking beta up.
<jjohansen> hrmmm, thats it from /me sarnold tag
<sarnold> I missed shipping qt4-x11 last week :( but on the plus side, my laptop arrived, and I'm busy re-doing all the BuildEnvironment and TestingEnvironment steps on it
<sarnold> so I won't be reliant on just the one flaky machine :)
<sarnold> I'm on community this week, but leaving for UDS on thursday (much cheaper by the time I booked my flights), so it may be quite limited
<sarnold> I'd like to subscribe to uds events, but my merged LP accounts are throwing an error; #is investigating. :)
<sarnold> I think that's it; jdstrand, back to you
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/exif.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/php-xajax.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/geshi.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/openvas-server.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/pure-ftpd.html
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, micahg, tyhicks, jjohansen, sarnold: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Oct 22 18:27:01 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-10-22-18.03.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-10-22-18.03.html
<jjohansen> thanks jdstrand
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand
<sarnold> thanks jdstrand :)
<sbeattie> thanks jdstrand
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-10-23
<hallyn> (For anyone who may be waiting, server team meeting has been canceled this week)
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-10-24
<mvuelma> Good morning.
<Destine> mvuelma, morning! Well, actually it's night for me, :-)
<mvuelma> Oh, excuse me, Destine. So, good evening.
<head_victim> Evening all, just organising ourselves for the 1200 UTC Ubuntu Membership Board Meeting
<cyphermox> #startmeeting 1200 UTC Ubuntu Membership Board
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Oct 24 12:04:30 2012 UTC.  The chair is cyphermox. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 1200 UTC Ubuntu Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<cyphermox> Hello and welcome to the Ubuntu Membership Review Board for the 1200 UTC meeting for October 24, 2012. The wiki page for the Review Board is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards
<cyphermox> We will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting. If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off.
<cyphermox> The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO).
<cyphermox> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
<cyphermox> During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
<cyphermox> When the board is ready to vote, they will publicly vote in the channel with either +1, 0, or -1 (for membership, abstain, and against membership, respectively). If the sum of those numbers is positive, then the applicant is now an official Ubuntu member! (feel free congratulate them!)
<cyphermox> #voters cyphermox head_victim IdleOne destine
<meetingology> Current voters: IdleOne cyphermox destine head_victim
<cyphermox> Now, without any further ado, lets get started with the first applicant...
<cyphermox> (just a second
<IdleOne> Morning :P
<IdleOne> :)
<cyphermox> #subtopic Marta Vuelma (mvuelma )
<cyphermox> mvuelma: are you around? (sorry if you're busy typing :)
<mvuelma> Hello to all.
<cyphermox> Hi!
<mvuelma> May I start introducing myself?
<cyphermox> of course :)
<head_victim> Evening mvuelma :)
<mvuelma> Well, let's go.
<mvuelma> I live in Brazil and I started working with Linux in 2001. In 2010 I started my activities with Ubuntu community.
<mvuelma> Desde esta data tenho participado de diversas formas na comunidade.
<mvuelma> Since this date I have participated in various ways in the community.
<mvuelma> Sorry, I wrote last words in Portuguese.
<head_victim> That's ok, I've had whole IRC conversations via google translate before
<mvuelma> I have done several events in various locations in the country. Lectures, courses.
<head_victim> So I see you have some good testimonials, do you have any links showing you in action with the events, lectures and training?
<IdleOne> https://launchpad.net/~mvuelma
<IdleOne> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MartaVuelma
<mvuelma> Participate actively in supporting the user community and was chosen LoCoTeam Leader in my region.
<cyphermox> #link https://launchpad.net/~mvuelma
<cyphermox> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MartaVuelma
<mvuelma> Well, I think you may check more detailed information in my wiki.
<cyphermox> (just making sure meetingology sees the links)
<mvuelma> That's it!
<IdleOne> mvuelma: can you tell us a bit more about ubuntu-br-rs ?
<mvuelma> IdleOne, of course.
<mvuelma> Here in Brazil, some LoCo Teams were inactive.
<IdleOne> ah, ok so it is a sub-loco team of the -br loco?
<mvuelma> It was the case of ubuntu-br-rs.
<mvuelma> Yes, we are a sub-loco.
<IdleOne> has the -rs team held any events?
<mvuelma> As I have been promoting a series of events since last year here in my region, we change the vision of our group and we have several new members.
<mvuelma> Right now, we are an active group again.
<mvuelma> and we already have a schedule of events and activities for next year
<IdleOne> link please
<mvuelma> Sorry, not published yet.
<IdleOne> what about past events, any blog posts you can link?
<head_victim> Can you explain the events you've run recently and your involvement in them. We're trying to get a feel for the size and the content of them.
<cyphermox> there are some posts on the mailing list for ubuntu-br-rs; I'm trying to read it with my limited understanding of portugese :)
<cyphermox> #link https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-br-rs/
<mvuelma> May this link be in Portuguese?
<cyphermox> mvuelma: of course
<head_victim> I love chromium's google translate stuff, makes multi lingual issues disappear. Until it doesn't quite get it right.
<mvuelma> This event occurs every year in my region, and this year was led entirely by me: http://www.ubuntubrsc.com/grupo-de-usuarios-do-ubuntu-br-marcou-presenca-no-fisl-13.html
<destine> head_victim, nice to have learned spanish, which makes Portuguese easier.
<head_victim> Ah I'm boring, english only here (even then some say I've barely conquered that)
<mvuelma> It's the largest free software event in Latin America and was attended by over 7000 participants.
<licio> Marta is a key member of ubuntu-br community, she has been supporting the team on the major conferences in Brazil
<head_victim> licio: thanks for that
<head_victim> mvuelma: reading the link now, seems perfect :)
<IdleOne> Anybody else here to cheer for mvuelma ?
<mvuelma> head_victim, thank you.
<IdleOne> Now is the time folks :)
<licio> Also, the guys from ubuntu-br-sc have a hangout on air every friday and she and Ursinha are always there to answers public questions ;)
<licio> IdleOne, bad brazilian time :/ 10am. some are sleeping and the rest are working :(
<head_victim> mvuelma: thanks for that link, are there any more? (Just asking, I like reading about what other locos are doing)
<mvuelma> head_victim, yes, you may check this one: http://martavuelma.wordpress.com/2012/04/29/balanco-do-flisol-2012/
<licio> head_victim, more in the plus page https://plus.google.com/+Ubuntu-BR-SC/posts
<mvuelma> Flisol is a "Install Fest" event.
<mvuelma> held in several cities in Latin America simultaneously
<head_victim> I ran one here last year but was only able to get 20 or so along, your photos put that to shame.
<cyphermox> #vote Marta Vuelma to join Ubuntu Members
<meetingology> Please vote on: Marta Vuelma to join Ubuntu Members
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<IdleOne> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from IdleOne
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<head_victim> +1 Keep up the great work with the loco
<meetingology> +1 Keep up the great work with the loco received from head_victim
<destine> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from destine
<cyphermox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Marta Vuelma to join Ubuntu Members
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<IdleOne> Congrats mvuelma and welcome :)
<destine> mvuelma, congrats!
<cyphermox> mvuelma: congrats!
<tiagoscd> mvuelma congrats :)
<mvuelma> Thank you everyone!
<cyphermox> please, add your blog to planet.ubuntu.com when you have a chance ;)
 * Ursula cheers
<NikTh> Congrats mvuelma  :)
<mvuelma> I am very happy with this recognition.
<mvuelma> cyphermox, I'll do that.
<head_victim> mvuelma: good work doing what you have, the challenge is to keep it going into the future :)
<mvuelma> head_victim, certainly, this is the challenge
<mvuelma> head_victim, and let's make this challenge a reality
<cyphermox> I don't think we have other applicants, so unless there is other business to discuss, I'll end the meeting.
<head_victim> cyphermox: none other listed on the wiki
<cyphermox> great!
<head_victim> Should we formalise the mailing list conversation abotu going to monthly?
<tiagoscd> mvuelma is making a great job at brazilian community
<cyphermox> there was such a conversation?
 * cyphermox fails at reading email
<head_victim> Perhaps it was in the channel
<head_victim> Hmm
<head_victim> tiagoscd: yes, she is doing great work
<cyphermox> well, if it was on IRC, we should definitely take it to the mailing list and make sure the CC knows about it, at least
<tiagoscd> head_victim, I'm sad because I've no time to make a testimonial for her
<cyphermox> tiagoscd: chiming in here is just as good :)
<licio> mvuelma, congrats! well deserved!
<head_victim> tiagoscd: don't be sad, her application was successful!
<mvuelma> licio, thank you so much!
<cyphermox> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Oct 24 12:40:02 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-10-24-12.04.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-10-24-12.04.html
 * slangasek waves
<jodh> o/
 * stgraber waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Oct 24 15:02:17 2012 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh ev bdmurray slangasek ogra infinity cjwatson xnox stokachu)
<slangasek> bdmurray xnox slangasek doko jodh stgraber stokachu barry cjwatson ogra ev infinity
<bdmurray> bug review of update-manager / ubuntu-release-upgrader bug reports
<bdmurray> analysis and testing of bug 346386 / bug 24061
<bdmurray> wrote a new test case for bug 346386
<bdmurray> wrote a test case for ubuntu-release-upgarder bug 1065806
<bdmurray> quantal-proposed upload for ubuntu-release-upgrader bugs 1070043, 1065806
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 346386 in apt (Ubuntu Precise) "[MASTER] Update fails with invalid package files with "Encountered a section with no Package: header"" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/346386
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 24061 in apt (Ubuntu Quantal) "GPG error with apt-get/aptitude/update-manager behind proxy (BADSIG 40976EAF437D05B5)" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/24061
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1065806 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "diff window is too small on upgrade" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1065806
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1070043 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "DistUpgradeApport.py should check to see if --tags is available" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1070043
<bdmurray> quantal-proposed upload for apport bug 1039220
<bdmurray> precise-proposed upload for apport-symptoms bug 1070542
<bdmurray> sru verification of apt bug 346386, 1050779, 1050791
<bdmurray> sru verification of apport bug 1050853
<bdmurray> sru verification of coreutils bug 1038468
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1039220 in apport (Ubuntu) "don't report crashes for programs that don't match the file on disk (like for kernel crashes)" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1039220
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1070542 in apport-symptoms (Ubuntu Precise) "not possible to use ubuntu-bug ubuntu-release-upgrader-core on precise" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1070542
 * mvo hugs bdmurray
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1050779 in apt (Ubuntu Precise) "excessive backup pkgcache.bin files retained" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1050779
<bdmurray> sru verification of update-notifier bug 946718
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1050791 in apt (Ubuntu Precise) "do not run into loop on new-pre-depends-breaks" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1050791
<bdmurray> sru verification of ubuntu-release-upgrader bug 1068389
<bdmurray> test case creation for apt bug 1065429
<bdmurray> reported ubuntu-release-upgrader bugs 1067542, 1067393, 1068874
<bdmurray> tested vmware player 5 installer in quantal
<bdmurray> release noted bug 993056
<bdmurray> setup rls-r-tracking reports on cranberry
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1050853 in Whoopsie "Not recorded whether an error is in a -proposed or -updates package" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1050853
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1038468 in coreutils (Debian) "data loss on sort -u" [Unknown,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1038468
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 946718 in update-notifier (Ubuntu Precise) "backend_helper.py crashed with RuntimeError in add_signal_receiver(): To make asynchronous calls, receive signals or export objects, D-Bus connections must be attached to a main loop by passing mainloop=... to the constructor or calling dbus.set_default_main_loop(...)" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/946718
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1068389 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "P->Q - do-release-upgrade crashed with UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\xbb' in position 1: ordinal not in range(128) in DistUpgrade/DistUpgradeViewText.py", line 143, in showInPager" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1068389
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1065429 in apt (Ubuntu Precise) "Long passwords for authenticated repositories not handled well" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1065429
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1067542 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "possible for some do-release-upgrade crashes to be unreportable" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1067542
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1068874 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "does not need to enable apport" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1068874
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1067393 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "using a local mirror and an official mirror of -backports does not work" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1067393
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 993056 in activity-log-manager (Ubuntu Quantal) ""Privacy" > "Diagnostics" > "Send error reports" can't be turned on or off" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/993056
<bdmurray> â done â
<xnox> * Quantal Released. Yeah!
<xnox> * Did merges (see lp:~xnox/*/r-proposed, mostly partman-* and related
<xnox>   packages). Still some todo.
<xnox> * Staging ubiquity bugfixes in lp:~xnox/ubiquity/r-proposed
<xnox> * Helping with python3.3 transition at the archive opening
<xnox> * Added ubiquity slide decks https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ubiquity/SlideDecks to
<xnox>   unblock design team on changes to installer.
<xnox> ..
 * xnox also started py3.3 by default ppa
<slangasek> xnox: mm?  I thought that was already in hand (barry)
<doko> he's at a conf today
<slangasek> yes
<xnox> me and doko finished up rebuilding public modules yesterday. and we'd rather get it done earlier than later.
<slangasek> ok
 * xnox has nasty python bugs for barry =)
<infinity> slangasek: You're up. :P
<slangasek>  * Secure Boot follow-through: getting support for efi variable writing, efifb quirking
<slangasek>  * UDS prep
<slangasek>  * debugging heat issues on my laptop in quantal
<slangasek>  * preliminary look at fixing cross-bootstrapping issues in raring (http://people.linaro.org/~wookey/buildd/quantal/sbuild-ma/status.html)
<slangasek> (done)
<doko> - quantal: two last java ftbfs for the release
<doko> - gcc multiarching: libgfortran-dev split & cross fixes
<doko> - gcc x32: gcc bits are ready, blocked on eglibc for further testing
<doko> - gcc aarch64: integrated fixes
<doko> - gcc upstream: armhf-triplet patches upstreamed, fixed libgo ftbfs on trunk
<doko> - binutils update to 2.23 just to find out that the upstream release is incomplete
<doko> - raring opening: binutils & gcc bits in place, waiting for kernel headers 3.7 (not anymore for the opening), and eglibc ...
<doko> - raring opening: python3.3 is supported, most extension modules are built for 3.3, bug fixes and no change uploads.  test rebuild can start now
<doko> - finished openjdk security updates (not yet published)
<doko> (done)
<jodh> * misc: on holiday yesterday.
<jodh> * upstart:
<jodh>   - Fixed bug 1049820 and bug 888910.
<jodh>   - Added new test for stateful re-exec.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1049820 in upstart "Using kill signal SIGPWR results in system crash" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1049820
<jodh>   - Currently chasing down a test race issue.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 888910 in upstart (Ubuntu) ""make check" fails in sbuild chroot" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/888910
<jodh> * TODO:
<jodh>   - get stateful-reexec into raring.
<jodh>   - blueprints and UDS planning.
<jodh> â
<stgraber>  - On vacation Friday, Monday and Tuesday
<stgraber>  - Release
<stgraber>   - Released Ubuntu 12.10
<stgraber>  - Networking
<stgraber>   - Went through the bug reports, prepared some uploads for when raring opens
<stgraber>  - Container
<stgraber>   - Reviewed a few branches, fixed a bunch of upstream bugs, next upstream daily build should be good
<stgraber>  - Installer
<stgraber>   - Did some tests on the preseed generator script. Mostly working, need to check if I can do something
<stgraber>     about the remaining keys easily. Will be uploaded as part of installation-report in raring.
<stgraber>  - UDS
<stgraber>   - Submitted usual networking session
<stgraber>   - Planned session on making dist upgrade a bit more reliable (especially lts-to-lts)
<stgraber>   - Going through notes to figure out if there's something else than should be discussed at UDS
<stgraber>  - TODO
<stgraber>   - Some more UDS preps
<stgraber>   - The usual merges
<stgraber>   - Push all lxc fixes to a bugfix branch so 0.8 can finally be released
<stgraber> (DONE)
<stokachu> Nothing on fire at the moment, requested a backport for pbuilder-scripts in precise, still working on appmenu-gtk multiarch solution. done.
<infinity> cjwatson: I think we're barryless.
<cjwatson> Spent all week working on raring-proposed -> raring auto-migration, both the migration code itself ("britney") and the necessary Launchpad patches.  I'm currently waiting for one LP database patch to be deployed, and then for an LP code patch to be reviewed, landed, and deployed; after that we should be able to turn this all on, open raring, and start auto-syncs.
<cjwatson> ..
<slangasek> ogra_:
<cjwatson> (Oh, for clarity, those patches are the ones that forcibly redirect all uploads to -proposed.)
<ogra_> done:
<ogra_>  * internal project work, to be presented at UDS
<ogra_>  * registered some specs
<ogra_> todo:
<ogra_>  * go to UDS, flesh out the spec content
<ogra_>  * test multiarch cross compiling
<ogra_> ..
<ev> - Spending most of my time on my UDS plenary.
<ev> - We discovered that our current calculation for average errors per calendar
<ev>   day (number of errors / unique users in the past 90 days) is incorrect. We
<ev>   have good reason to believe that it is what caused the large spike around
<ev>   release in the 12.10 graph:
<ev>   https://bugs.launchpad.net/errors/+bug/1069827
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1069827 in Errors "Error rate incorrectly spikes with any influx of machines" [Undecided,New]
<ev>   We've been working on a fix for this. I implemented an early solution, but
<ev>   we found out again that is was wrong. We'll be taking this to canonical-tech
<ev>   and http://stats.stackexchange.com.
<ev> - Fixed a number of small issues in http://errors.ubuntu.com. We now identify
<ev>   private bugs rather than treating them as regressions.
<ev> - Fixed some issues in the juju deployment code for the entire whoopsie daisy
<ev>   project. Discussions with juju people on how to best represent the
<ev>   schema creation dependency that the retracers have on the main daisy
<ev>   instance.
<ev> (done)
<infinity> Last week:
<infinity>  - Released a new version of some operating system or other
<infinity>  - Worked on the opening of raring
<infinity>  - Several merges, bug fixes, and SRUs relating to the opening
<infinity>  - Worked on eglibc 2.16 4-way merge between Debian, Ubuntu, schepler, and wookey
<infinity>  - Discussed glibc 2.17 roadmap with upstream
<infinity>  - Meetings, meetings, and more meetings
<infinity>  - Spent some time cursing at bug 997359 (jodh: Can we get this fixed?)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 997359 in libnih (Ubuntu) "nih uses eglibc private symbol __abort_msg" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/997359
<infinity> This week:
<infinity>  - Finish up eglibc 2.16, including making future merges much less effort
<infinity>  - Revisit kernel cleanup, time permitting
<infinity>  - Do some pre-UDS prep and blueprinty things
<infinity>  - UDS
<infinity> â­
<doko> finished? don't see it
<jodh> infinity: I'm waiting for feedback on https://bugs.launchpad.net/libnih/+bug/997359/comments/2 :)
<cjwatson> I think "this week" is a to-do
<infinity> jodh: I realise there's a "rebootstrap nih/glibc every time" workaround for the above, but it would be lovely to just fix it.
<slangasek> infinity: do you expect 2.16 to land this week?
<infinity> slangasek: Yeahp.
<slangasek> ok cool
<cjwatson> You have until, uh, not quite sure if you want it before britney's all ready.
<cjwatson> Probably Friday by this point (which is a bit unfortunate since I'm meant to be on holiday).
<cjwatson> Might end up turning it on from the hotel :)
<infinity> A pre-UDS one day rest?
<infinity> Oh crap, it's almost the end of the year.  I should take a holiday sometime too.
<cjwatson> My family'll be with me so hacking time a bit limited.  We'll see.
<infinity> La la la.
<slangasek> infinity: APPROVED
 * slangasek whistles and runs away
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<ogra_> infinity, heh, me too
<slangasek> bdmurray: I guess we might be in a weird spot for this since raring has no new bugs and we're not putting as much effort into quantal SRUs... but any that you think we need to fix though?
<infinity> jodh: Your maybe in comment #2 is a bit vague, but without digging into it further, I say "yes, that would be lovely". :P
<xnox> Hmm.... we will have 12.04.2 on the New Years Eve.
<bdmurray> slangasek: no, not yet.  however I've been trying to verify the fix for bug 1066445 so that the apt sru which fixes bug 346386 can be released.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1066445 in apt (Debian) "apt-get crashed with SIGSEGV in pkgCacheGenerator::ListParser::NewProvides()" [Unknown,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1066445
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 346386 in apt (Ubuntu Precise) "[MASTER] Update fails with invalid package files with "Encountered a section with no Package: header"" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/346386
<bdmurray> I've had no luck getting the failure in bug 1066445 though
<cjwatson> xnox: 31 Jan, not 31 Dec :-)
<slangasek> that's the one that cjwatson suggested randomly permuting the cache size on, yes?
<bdmurray> right, I've tried much smaller cache sizes
<cjwatson> Yeah, it's probably a right pig to reproduce if you're unlucky
<xnox> cjwatson: Oh good =)
<infinity> Trying to reproduce on precise?
<cjwatson> If it helps, you can use 'apt-cache gencaches' rather than 'apt-get update' (after the first time), which will be a lot faster since it doesn't download anything
<bdmurray> would regression testing, dist-upgrades with the -proposed apt, be sufficient?
<bdmurray> infinity: yes on precise
<slangasek> yeah, I'm kinda thinking we should just call it good with the regression test
<cjwatson> I suspect regression testing may be all we can realistically get, in the absence of a deliberately malicious fuzzer tool
<slangasek> especially if we're pushing another apt SRU right behind it, the impact on users of having an extra SRU is minimal
<cjwatson> Which arguably might be a good idea given the nature of this code
<cjwatson> But it's not something we can knock together quickly
<cjwatson> Unfortunately we don't have a /var/lib/apt/ tarball from that bug, otherwise reproduction would be a matter of dropping that in place and running 'apt-cache gencaches'
<bdmurray> okay, I'll do one more test with apt from -proposed and then comment on the bug and tag it v-done
<slangasek> sounds good
<cjwatson> Do make sure you're testing on amd64
<cjwatson> slangasek: BTW, the reason it's more likely when upgrading to quantal than when upgrading within precise is bigger Packages files with more Multi-Arch entries
<bdmurray> I am - is that mentioned in the bug at all?
 * infinity just tried i386 and amd64 and failed to reproduce.
<slangasek> cjwatson: fun
<cjwatson> bdmurray: No, but it only bit amd64 originally
<jodh> I wonder if bug 1016040 might have indirectly fixed bug 1066445?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1016040 in apt (Ubuntu Quantal) "apt_check.py crashed with SIGSEGV in FileName()" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1016040
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1066445 in apt (Debian) "apt-get crashed with SIGSEGV in pkgCacheGenerator::ListParser::NewProvides()" [Unknown,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1066445
<cjwatson> jodh: Not that way round
<slangasek> bdmurray: is that everything?
<bdmurray> slangasek: that is all I have for today
<slangasek> bdmurray: ok, thanks
<slangasek> [TOPIC] UDS
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: UDS
<slangasek> blueprints
<slangasek> anything that you expect to have a session on at UDS, get your blueprint registered and proposed for uds-r by *tomorrow*
<slangasek> and *before* Monday, I want everyone to have gone through the schedule and subscribed themselves to the sessions they plan to attend
<slangasek> for any session that you would ask to have moved to work around a conflict, you should be marking yourself "participation essential"
<slangasek> I do not want you coming to me during the week and asking to move sessions because of a conflict - *tell the system* that it's a conflict and let the auto-scheduler do its job, please :)
<cjwatson> jodh: So - I suppose it's possible, but I think it's relatively unlikely as my observations while debugging 1066445 were that it tended to crash immediately
<slangasek> (ok, if you only find out during the week that you have to be at two sessions at once, come to me all the same - but don't let this happen for things you should know about in advance)
<slangasek> clear?
<ogra_> slangasek, what if we bribe you with lots of beer for it ?
 * infinity gets the impression that slangasek feels strongly about this topic.
<ogra_> dont work ?
<ogra_> :)
<cjwatson> jodh: It seems unlikely since the crash was due to dereferencing a pointer into memory that had only *just* been deallocated - I don't think there's any way it could end up overwriting a stat buffer or similar
<slangasek> ogra_: my fee for moving sessions during the week is that I will look at you with an evil eye
<slangasek> this is a flat rate and not subject to negotiation
<ogra_> hahaha
<ogra_> k
<slangasek> also of note:
<infinity> slangasek: Your evil eye tends to be accompanied with a friendly smile, it's rather confusing.
<slangasek> this time around we're trying something different in terms of session types
<ogra_> infinity, thats what makes it so scary
<slangasek> in addition to blueprint sessions, we can also have workshop sessions
<slangasek> (workshop/hacking sessions)
<ogra_> sweet !
<slangasek> and also, presentation sessions
<slangasek> SO
 * xnox thinks the laser strength shooting from the evil eye will vary in kW 
 * ogra_ fells like rolled back 6 years 
<ogra_> *before* we started scheduling everything madly
<slangasek> for the first one, if you're being asked for blueprints to be added to UDS for the umpteenth time, and are thinking "we don't need another session on that, we just need to sit down and DO it"
<slangasek> - then there's a possibility of doing just that.  Let me know and we'll see if scheduling a workshop session instead of a blueprint session makes sense.
<infinity> Is there a way to represent that in the LP UI?
<infinity> Like, a blueprintless blueprint? :P
<infinity> Or do we need to ask someone (like you) to schedule a workshoppy thing?
<ogra_> informational ?
<infinity> ogra_: Informational would seem to map better to the presentation sessions.
<ogra_> indeed
<slangasek> and for the second one, if there are topics that you think it would be useful to share with the larger Ubuntu community - like something you'd really like to give as a plenary but there wasn't a slot for - feel free to propose a presentation session
<ogra_> but could be abused for it
<stgraber> slangasek: is summit actually still reading the participation essential bit from LP? the UI suggests that it only uses LP to check if you want to attend and that you need to poke the track lead to be marked as essential (the UI says "If you feel that your participation is required for this topic, please contact Steve Langasek..."). Not that I have any conflict at the moment, just found it a bit confusing...
<slangasek> infinity: you ask a track lead to add it
<infinity> slangasek: Check.
<slangasek> stgraber: I'm not sure; the summit UI is showing ALL subscribers to ALL sessions with a star.  I'll look into that today and get back to you
<infinity> We could nick higlight cjohnston intentionally for once, and ask him.
<slangasek> stgraber: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-r/attendee_review/21047/foundations-r-prior-release-feedback/ appears to reflect the blueprint P.E. status
<infinity> Though he's probably so fed up with people actually wanting cjwatson that he no longer responds.
<cjwatson> It happens both ways round ...
<stgraber> slangasek: ok. I also got one case where I had to manually subscribe on summit as even though I was subscribed on LP it wouldn't show it on summit. But as I said, no conflict so far, so I'll start pinging people if a conflict shows up...
<slangasek> stgraber: so there appears to be an additional flippy bit that I have access to, to make people "required" as opposed to "very interested in attending"
<slangasek> but I'm hoping they aren't making me set that for every single person who's required to be in a session, because that would be horrid and non-scalable
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> any other topics burning a hole in the pockets of your minds?
<infinity> slangasek: Ugh.  So, essential isn't actually essential?
<infinity> "Please mark me super-duper-essential"?
<slangasek> infinity: I don't know.  There's a perception on the part of other track leads that the launchpad field has been abused by people who aren't essential, which has never been my experience
<slangasek> so it may be that the scheduler has two different levels now
<slangasek> "try to schedule around this person" vs "require this person"
<doko> so do we open the archive in any case tomorrow?
<doko> regardless of any missing stuff?
<slangasek> I'll try to get clarification.  But needless to say, I'm not going to go through by hand and edit status fields one by one for every one of you on summit. :P
<cjwatson> doko: I don't think the "force everything into -proposed" stuff is going to have quite landed by then
<infinity> slangasek: But that sounds like oodles of fun.  OODLES.
<cjwatson> And we're so close by now, and that will make so much difference, that I'm not willing to open without that at this point
<doko> ahh, ok.
<cjwatson> My database patch is second in the queue, so that won't land until at least tomorrow morning (if I'm lucky)
<doko> cjwatson, do you expect to happen his during UDS?
<cjwatson> My code patch hasn't yet been completely reviewed, although I've had some comments
<cjwatson> Then it needs to go through EC2 (~4 hours, strictly after the DB patch lands), buildbot (~40 mins), QA (not too arduous), and be deployed
<cjwatson> Subject to review, it should be possible to get it all done before UDS
<infinity> cjwatson: ndt or fdt?
<cjwatson> infinity: fdt for the db patch, ndt for code
<cjwatson> [fastdowntime / nodowntime]
<infinity> Yeah, Friday sounds reasonable then.
<doko> ok, I think, I'll send an email about when to expect the opening. will send you the draft
<cjwatson> I thought I kind of covered that with my -devel mail earlier
<cjwatson> But as you like
<slangasek> ok - anything else?
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Oct 24 15:50:20 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-10-24-15.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-10-24-15.02.html
<slangasek> the end
<slangasek> thanks all
<ogra_> thanks slangasek !
<xnox> cheers.
 * ogra_ finally starts the break he tires to have since 9h
<ev> thanks!
<infinity> ogra_: That'll be one hell of a tasty coffee.
<infinity> ogra_: Or awfully stale, if you brewed it 9h ago.
<ogra_> haha
<ogra_> no, i dont count making coffee as break
<ogra_> its a button press and 30sec waiting
<stgraber> thanks!
<ogra_> its just that every time i tried to start that break something occured that didnt let me leave my desktop
 * cjwatson sends ogra_ some really good kitten pictures
<cjohnston> infinity: that doesn't sound like much fun, but whats up
<infinity> cjohnston: Hah.  A bit late.  We were just ruminating about how marking people essential to sessions does or doesn't work these days.
<infinity> cjohnston: slangasek seems to have discovered that it doesn't DTRT without individually setting a "no, I really mean it" flag, which is pretty unscalable.
<cjohnston> I know.. was trying to get out the door.for the airport
<cjohnston> agreed.. but so was allowing everyone to mark required as they want
<bootlkjkgf> http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/tt71/Pittsburghistan/xb9yt0jpg-1.gif
<cjohnston> we need a better algorithm for scheduling
<ogra_> cjwatson, LOL !
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-10-28
<AlanBell> evening all
<AlanBell> IRCC meeting in 5 minutes
<Tm_T> hm
<Pici> \o
<AlanBell> right, lets get started
<AlanBell> #startmeeting IRC Team
<meetingology> Meeting started Sun Oct 28 19:02:36 2012 UTC.  The chair is AlanBell. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic:
<AlanBell> hi all, who is here for the meeting?
<Pici> howdy
<AlanBell> #topic Review last meetings action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic:  Review last meetings action items
<AlanBell> last meeting was here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/IRCC/20120624
<AlanBell> we had an action item to set up #ubuntu-discuss, which we did, the channel has been rather quiet but Jussi has requested we keep it going a bit longer, I am inclined to review it again next meeting after UDS, it might prove useful still
<AlanBell> if it doesn't we can close it and forward to -offtopic or something
<Pici> Sounds good.
<cjohnston> does anyone here have access to the udsbottu?
<Pici> Too bad it hasn't seen more action though
<Spads> cjohnston: "udsbotu"
<AlanBell> another action item was looking at ban removal in ubottu, which we can come onto in a minute
<Tm_T> I'm ok having -discuss around still
<Tm_T> even if it slow
<AlanBell> cjohnston: that would be tsimpson I think
<cjohnston> is he all?
<AlanBell> jussi too possibly
<AlanBell> cjohnston: what needs doing?
<Spads> AlanBell: cjohnston is on a phone, so he asked me to explain.  Basically we have a bunch of IRC channels for the session rooms at UDS, and we need to get the bot to join those.
<Spads> AlanBell: You can get a list of channel names by hovering over the little speech bubbles on e.g: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-r/2012-10-29/
<Spads> \Takei{Oh myyyy...}
<AlanBell> hi udsbotu :)
 * Spads takes this as a demonstration of this fully operational udsbotu 
<AlanBell> looks like she listens to me so I will sort that out after the meeting
<Spads> AlanBell: many thanks!
<Tm_T> AlanBell: rock on
<Spads> Rock over London; rock on Chicago.
<AlanBell> yay
<AlanBell> the other action item was pici to review masks for Ubuntu Member access to channels
<Pici> uhh.
<AlanBell> oh, this was stuff like this channel where the mask might not match the variety of cloaks we have or somethign
<Pici> I remember looking at it an one point, I'll have something done for next meeting.
<AlanBell> ok, no problem
<AlanBell> on to the agenda items
<AlanBell> #topic Open items in the IRCC tracker
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic:  Open items in the IRCC tracker
<AlanBell> none at all \o/
<Tm_T> nooooooo
<Pici> wooo
<AlanBell> #topic Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic:  Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council
<AlanBell> #subtopic bug 913541 there are a number of people with Ubuntu IRC cloaks who have expired from the ubuntumembers group - AlanBell
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 913541 in ubuntu-community "there are a number of people with Ubuntu IRC cloaks who have expired from the ubuntumembers group" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/913541
<udsbotu> Ubuntu bug 913541 in ubuntu-community "there are a number of people with Ubuntu IRC cloaks who have expired from the ubuntumembers group" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/913541 - Assigned to Ubuntu IRC Council (ubuntu-irc-council)
<AlanBell> I think pici sorted the last of these out (at the time)
<AlanBell> should run that script again to check
<Pici> Indeed, they were all fixed as of whenever I did it.
<AlanBell> ok, I will run the script as a check, and close the bug
<AlanBell> \o/
<AlanBell> #topic alignment of launchpad teams and channel access lists
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic:  alignment of launchpad teams and channel access lists
<AlanBell> I have basically done this one, I will do a final check through, I have a script that parses the launchpad groups and a google docs spreadsheet of the access lists and they basically tie up now
<AlanBell> it is going to be hard to fully automate because of stuff like the kubuntu council having access to things nested in the normal access groups
<AlanBell> right, lets move on to eir
<AlanBell> #topic replacing eir with an ubottu plugin
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic:  replacing eir with an ubottu plugin
<AlanBell> bug 892500 eir is still not fit for purpose in #ubuntu -ikonia
<udsbotu> Ubuntu bug 892500 in ubuntu-community "eir is still not fit for purpose in #ubuntu" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/892500 - Assigned to Ubuntu IRC Council (ubuntu-irc-council)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 892500 in ubuntu-community "eir is still not fit for purpose in #ubuntu" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/892500
<AlanBell> udsbotu: part #ubuntu-meeting
<AlanBell> so we have in #ubuntu-bots-test the rather good scratbot
<AlanBell> which is doing some ban management
<AlanBell> is it good enough? do we turn it on and remove eir?
<Pici> Is it ready for prime time?
<AlanBell> well I have been pestering people to test it :)
<AlanBell> I had a go and it seems to function well
<Tm_T> my only concern is if it has all the needed functionalities, what I know it does
<AlanBell> I believe it may require ubottu to be opped
<AlanBell> for ban removal
<Tm_T> hmm
<Tm_T> it cannot op itself when needed?
<AlanBell> maybe
<AlanBell> actually scratdev is not opped in -bots-test
<AlanBell> right, I think we should talk to m4v about the production readyness of it
<AlanBell> and get the code up on launchpad for review
<AlanBell> then turn it on and fix what breaks :)
<Tm_T> sounds like a plan
<Pici> Sounds good
<AlanBell> great
<AlanBell> #action AlanBell Pici Tm_T m4v to initiate the process of getting scratbot code into ubottu
<meetingology> ACTION: AlanBell Pici Tm_T m4v to initiate the process of getting scratbot code into ubottu
<AlanBell> nick m4v
<AlanBell> #topic Any Other Business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic:  Any Other Business
<AlanBell> #action alanbell to sort out udsbotu in uds channels
<meetingology> ACTION: alanbell to sort out udsbotu in uds channels
<AlanBell> #action alanbell to blog about UDS IRC channels
<meetingology> ACTION: alanbell to blog about UDS IRC channels
<AlanBell> now, we had a blueprint for a UDS session
<AlanBell> dunno if it got scheduled
<AlanBell> the other thing we should do is a call for ops, and process the queues
<AlanBell> don't think there are many applicants right now which is fine
<AlanBell> any other things we should be thinking about doing at this time?
<Tm_T> AlanBell: should we use UDS as a possibility to discuss with canonical about the use of irc channels on marketing or was this sorted adequately already?
<AlanBell> well that was one reason for the creation of #ubuntu-discuss
<AlanBell> and yes, I would like to use UDS to get the word out to canonical that they can send people there
<AlanBell> any more items to add?
<Pici> nope ;)
<AlanBell> things can always be discussed at any time in -ops and -ops-team if people have items to raise
<AlanBell> but for now . . .
<AlanBell> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sun Oct 28 19:30:19 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-10-28-19.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-10-28-19.02.html
<AlanBell> thanks all
<Tm_T> thanks AlanBell
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-10-21
<barry> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Oct 21 15:00:26 2013 UTC.  The chair is barry. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<barry> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, ScottK, Laney, micahg, barry, tumbleweed, stgraber: DMB ping
<barry> welcome to this week's ubuntu developer membership board meeting
 * Laney waves
<barry> stgraber: will be along in a while
<barry> micahg-work: hi
<barry> we can wait another couple of minutes for bdrung, ScottK, and tumbleweed
<tumbleweed> o/
<barry> i guess we'll start
<barry> #topic Review of previous action items
<barry>  
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review of previous action items
 * stgraber waves
<barry> is there anything we need to review?
<barry> #topic Package Sets
<barry>  
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Package Sets
<barry> no package sets today
<barry> #topic PerPackageUploader Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: PerPackageUploader Applications
<barry> utlemming does not appear to be online :(
<barry> let's skip ahead and see if he shows up
<Laney> doh
<barry> #topic MOTU Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: MOTU Applications
<barry> none
<barry> #topic Ubuntu Core Developer Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Core Developer Applications
<barry> none today
<barry> #topic Should we change UTC meeting time when the DST-ending madness begins?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Should we change UTC meeting time when the DST-ending madness begins?
<barry> any objections to taking this one to the mailing list?
<tumbleweed> barry loves noop meetings
<barry> tumbleweed: almost better than meetings i miss :)
<tumbleweed> no objection, but generally, if we want to actually make a decision, this is the place to do it
<micahg-work> sounds good to me
<Laney> Well
<barry> tumbleweed: in that case.  i personally have no problem with keeping it at 1500 utc.  i suspect stgraber and ScottK won't mind either
<Laney> Aren't the DST changes happening before the next meeting?
<barry> Laney: in the NA, yes
 * ScottK wave.
<barry> micahg-work: i think you are the westish among us, so maybe it affects you most?
 * ScottK is good with whatever.
<barry> tumbleweed, Laney, bdrung any preferences?
<Laney> What is the proposal?
 * tumbleweed doesn't mind either way
<Laney> 1500 is fine
<barry> Laney: keep dmb at 1500utc or switch it to Something Else
<barry> (and 1900utc)
<barry> micahg-work: any objections then to keeping 1500utc and 1900utc?
<micahg-work> I have an issue with 15:00, I'll miss the meeting most likely
<micahg-work> well, maybe I can attend from my phone
<barry> micahg-work: why don't we try it and if it's a real hardship, we can move it?
<micahg-work> ok
<barry> thanks
<Laney> tether it :-)
<barry> well, that about does it, and no utlemming, so i will send an email and push him back to the next meeting
<barry> #topic aob
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: aob
<barry> any other business before we adjourn?
 * stgraber doesn't have anything
<Laney> nope
<barry> okay then..
<barry> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Oct 21 15:17:14 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-10-21-15.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-10-21-15.00.html
<barry> thanks! :)
<stgraber> thanks!
<micahg-work> thanks barry
<jdstrand> hi!
<chrisccoulson> hi
<mdeslaur> \o
<mdeslaur> o/
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Oct 21 16:31:38 2013 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
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<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jjohansen> \o
<jdstrand> Ubuntu 13.10 is released. Thanks to everyone who contributed to Ubuntu security for the Saucy Salamander!
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I'm in the happy place this week
<jdstrand> I'll be attending a sprint next week and need to prepare for it
<jdstrand> part of that is preliminary planning for 14.04 and 14.10
<jdstrand> I'll also patch pilot
<jdstrand> and have several pending updates I am working on
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on triage this week
<mdeslaur> am currently publishing eglibc updates
<mdeslaur> and will work on some other things before the sprint I'm attending next week
<mdeslaur> that's it form me
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I'm on apparmor this week
<sbeattie> I'm still working on IPC tests amongst other things there
<sbeattie> I need to finish up the new release tasks
<sbeattie> I suspect I'll be discussion 14.04 and 14.10 plans
<sbeattie> that's it for me; tyhicks, you're up
<tyhicks> I'm in the middle of looking into how kdbus can work for AppArmor and other LSMs, in general
<tyhicks> I need a little more time with that
<tyhicks> I have a small amount of eCryptfs maintainership stuff that I need to catch up on
<tyhicks> and I hope to pitch in on the IPC work
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> I will be working on apparmor ipc again this week, I'll be coordinating with tyhicks and sbeattie. I am sure we will do a little preplanning for 14.04/14.10 and I also have to push up the patches I have queue for 3.13
<jjohansen> I think that is it for me, sarnold your up
<sarnold> I have one more MIR to finish -- I didn't get it done in time for including in images :( but I've made a lot of progress on it, and I'd like to finish it off before moving on
<mdeslaur> sarnold: any idea when that'll be?
<mdeslaur> just curious
<sarnold> mdeslaur: I expect it by the end of the day.
<mdeslaur> ok, cool
<sarnold> mdeslaur: most of the code quality is quite good, I just need to determine if the authentication on the magic backdoor method is strong enough
<mdeslaur> haha, that doesn't sound promising
<sbeattie> hah
<sarnold> since the magic backdoor is in vmware's hypervisors, I don't have any visibility on how well they filter it out from network traffic that might be used by other VMs or hosts or other hosts on the network, so I'd like to make sure the guests look defensive enough on their own without any help from the hypervisor.
<mdeslaur> Now with Magic Backdoor(tm) technology!
<sarnold> ITYM "lower costs of maintenance" or something. hehe. :)
<mdeslaur> hehe
<sarnold> anyway, I expect to pick up an update or two this week, depending upon which ones specifically. :) \o/
<mdeslaur> w00t! :P
<sarnold> yeah, it's about time you had some help. :)
<sarnold> oof :)
<sarnold> that's me :) chrisccoulson, your turn
<mdeslaur> hehe
<chuck_> gna!
<chrisccoulson> this week, i'm working on bug 1214049
<ubottu> bug 1214049 in Oxide "Support accelerated compositing" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1214049
<chrisccoulson> it turns out that this is required to make viewport mode work (which is required for a useful mobile browser), as page scaling is completely broken in the non-accelerated rendering path
<mdeslaur> cool
<chrisccoulson> but once that's done, we're a step closer to being able to start migrating the touch browser across
<mdeslaur> oh, sweet
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: did you have a chance to look at packaging at all yet?
<chrisccoulson> i plan to spend a day getting all of the firefox builds working again this week too, as they've been neglected a bit recently
<chrisccoulson> and there's a release next week :)
<chrisccoulson> jdstrand, not yet. i can do that after this bug though
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: cool-- I'm going to try to drum up some help for you next week, and I think that might be helpful
<chrisccoulson> thanks
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: any new on chromium-browser?
<jdstrand> news*
<chrisccoulson> heh, not yet. i'll ping chad again in a bit
<jdstrand> thanks
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: did you have anything else to report?
<chrisccoulson> jdstrand, oh, sorry. no, i'm done :)
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ruby-actionmailer-3.2.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/exif.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/geshi.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/squidclamav.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/tpp.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> fyi, I blogged about some of the good work you guys did in 13.10
<jdstrand> which included a light primer on dbus policy
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: nice blog post!
<jdstrand> thanks!
<jdstrand> (the blog post as about application confinement only)
<jdstrand> if people haven't read chrisccoulson's post on oxide, it is excellent: http://www.chriscoulson.me.uk/blog/?p=196
<mdeslaur> yes, nice blog post chrisccoulson!
<chrisccoulson> heh :)
<chrisccoulson> thanks
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, tyhicks, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Oct 21 16:59:21 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-10-21-16.31.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-10-21-16.31.html
<sarnold> thanks jdstrand :)
<jjohansen> thanks jdstrand
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
<sbeattie> jdstrand: thanks!
<bkerensa> =o
<pleia2> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Oct 21 19:01:06 2013 UTC.  The chair is pleia2. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<bkerensa> \o/
<pleia2> #chair dsmythies godbyk bkerensa
<meetingology> Current chairs: bkerensa dsmythies godbyk pleia2
<pleia2> hi everyone :)
<pleia2> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
<slickymaster> hi pleia2 o/
<pleia2> our meeing agenda
<pleia2> who all is here for the Doc Team meeting?
<slickymaster> o/
 * godbyk is here.
 * slickymaster slaso
<slickymaster> also
<pmatulis_> o/
<bkerensa> :D
<dsmythies> Hi, Doug S. here for meeting
<pleia2> while we say some hellos, I also wanted to get some resources+terms squared away so we know what we're all talking about
<phillw> o/
<pleia2> Desktop and Server docs: These are centrally managed by the core contributors team, packaged and shipped in the ubuntu repositories and also available at help.ubuntu.com
<pleia2> Documentation wiki: This is all the documentation managed under help.ubuntu.com/community/ - does not strictly freeze or release, maintained by anyone who has a wiki account + a handful of wiki admins
<phillw> sorry, just trying to sort a fail for gnome-keyring-ssh.desktop
<dsmythies> Correction: Serverguide is not packaged or shipped
<pleia2> dsmythies: doh!
<pleia2> dsmythies: just published on help.ubuntu.com ?
<dsmythies> yes
<pleia2> ok, thanks
<pleia2> Teams wiki: This is a wiki for teams to share team details, meetings, notes, plans at wiki.ubuntu.com
<pleia2> Ubuntu Manual: Separate team from us (though this may change some day! and there is team membership overlap) and not covered in this meeting
<pleia2> I think that's it
<pleia2> time to start with meeting things :)
<pleia2> #topic Assess the Ubuntu 13.10 documentation cycle
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Assess the Ubuntu 13.10 documentation cycle
<pleia2> #subtopic What did we do well?
<pleia2> any comments?
<pleia2> I'm happy that we got the contribution docs up to date and were able to make a solid call for contributors with some steps about how they could review the docs and optionally contribute patches
<dsmythies> We had good spelling and grammer checking by several.
<godbyk> I think our updated 'how to contribute to the system docs' guide is helpful. I look forward to ensuring the rest of our (internal) documentation is up to date.
<godbyk> We have had people filing bugs that are helpful.
<bkerensa> We refreshed quite a bit of doc and got the how to contribute out the door
<godbyk> I think we met all of our deadlines this cycle (docs/string freeze, package deadline, etc.).
<bkerensa> I think the fact that we functioned as a team and had enough contributors to call ourselves a team versus just one person doing the work full time (jbicha) was good to see
<godbyk> We didn't get all of the docs updated, but we tackled the majority of them.
<pleia2> bkerensa: +1
<godbyk> bkerensa: I definitely agree with that.
<phillw> I was deeply heartened to see discussions on the ML. I does bode well for 14.04
<phillw> *it*
<pleia2> #subtopic What didn't go well?
<godbyk> This cycle we were hampered by being so out of date to start with. We had a lot of catching up to do.
<pleia2> I think we were still suffering from overwhelmingness early on which led to early confusion and frustration to contributors, but I'm pretty sure that was just growing pains and we're doing better now, and well set up for next cycle
<phillw> there is still uncertaincy of what tools we use for which projects.
<dsmythies> We did not have enough people actually using a 13.10 machine to compare the help docs to.
<godbyk> I spent most of my time just merging upstream GNOME docs into our documentation.  There are still a fair number of pages that need merging/updating.
<bkerensa> I think the confusion over translations was not exactly great but this is something we can overcome in 14.04
<pleia2> dsmythies: good observation, I think that's a solid thing we can improve upon
 * bkerensa is already running 14.04 :) 
<godbyk> Going forward, I think we'll be better off as we can start work much earlier in the cycle.
<pleia2> bkerensa: yeah, I think we knew we'd have some technical process hiccups, hopefully our notes are good enough for next time around :)
<pleia2> godbyk: +1
<godbyk> We got off to a late start for 13.10 as we had to figure out how to do everything. :)
<dsmythies> I did not know how to help Kevin with the upstream GNOME stuff
<pmatulis_> this cycle was one of the worst for the server guide in terms of content contribution
<godbyk> dsmythies: It's a fairly manual process. Visually diffing our docs and GNOME docs and merging where it seems appropriate.
<pleia2> #subtopic How can we improve?
<eagles0513875_> sorry im late
<godbyk> pmatulis_: Lack of contributors or lack of quality of contributions?
<pleia2> (we seem to be moving into this topic)
<pmatulis_> godbyk: both
<eagles0513875_> pleia2: i do have a way we can potentially make joining teams a bit easier as well as versioning of documentation
<eagles0513875_> but it will require some work and it beats reinventing the wheel
<bkerensa> I think peer approval for merges would be nice it just lends extra eyes to pushes so if a mistake is made by a contributor it is not overlooked and does not have to be fixed with another push or even worse a SRU after release
<pleia2> eagles0513875_: we're reviewing the good, bad and ugly of the 13.04 release cycle, perhaps we can wait on your comments on this?
<pleia2> so I think for both server and desktop it would be very useful to have a schedule for "call for contributions" with specific instructions on how to help
<godbyk> I think we should start our work much earlier. For example, we can finish merging upstream GNOME docs for trusty today. Then we can go back and review the docs to bring them up to date for 13.10 at least.
<eagles0513875_> sure i wasnt part of 13.04 documentation sadly so i will be quiet please ping me ill be here
<pleia2> I think a lot of folks on the mailing list simply weren't aware that the server guide needed help
<eagles0513875_> pleia2:may i make a comment in general though between community docs vs official docs
<pleia2> (I was kind of tunnel visioned on desktop this cycle)
<pleia2> eagles0513875_: please wait until later in the meeting, we want to keep this on topic :)
<pleia2> community vs official is a big discussion
<godbyk> pleia2: True. I tended to leave the serverguide stuff to Doug. He seemed pretty quick at jumping on bugs and the like.
<bkerensa> I think a weekly status e-mail being sent to mailing list with outstanding bugs and merge proposals (see peer review suggestion above) should be sent out so everyone is abreast of work to be done
<godbyk> And someone dsmythies also managed to make huge contributions to the desktop docs, too.
<pleia2> yeah, dsmythies was very busy :)
<bkerensa> monthly meetings for the first part of the cycle and then weekly meetings for the last month until release
<pleia2> bkerensa: maybe every other week? but yeah, that'd be great, I can help out there
<bkerensa> sure
<dsmythies> I think we were all busy.
<bkerensa> indeed
<bkerensa> if we break the tasks up
<bkerensa> it would be easier
<pleia2> #subtopic What should we do differently for 14.04?
<pleia2> I guess we're sort of talking about this now too :)
<bkerensa> one week doug does status e-mail, next kevin, then me, then pleia2
<godbyk> bkerensa: +1. I think knowing who's taking responsibility for what would be helpful.
<bkerensa> one week kevin does merge proposal reviews then me, and so on
<pleia2> I don't know that we have to be so formal about MPs
<bkerensa> we can track the assignments on a wiki page
<pleia2> unless it becomes a problem (I don't think it was last cycle)
<godbyk> The merge proposals that I've reviewed have tended to be pretty short and simple to review.
<dsmythies> The serverguide wiki page for tasks is working very well.
<pleia2> dsmythies: link?
<bkerensa> pleia2: it is not a necessity since were not a development team but it isnt something every other official team including Juju Docs does
<bkerensa> were the only team that does not do it
<pleia2> bkerensa: well we don't have paid employees who are reportable to a boss who tracks such things :)
<dsmythies> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuServerGuide
<pleia2> ah yes
<godbyk> bkerensa: The manual team doesn't use MPs, either. In fact, anyone can join the team and start committing to the repository immediately.
<godbyk> bkerensa: So far we haven't had any issues with vandalism. Occasionally someone breaks the build, but it's always been an easy fix.
<pleia2> interesting
<bkerensa> godbyk: Yeah but the manual team is also not an official Ubuntu project ;)
<bkerensa> thats the big difference
<godbyk> bkerensa: A fair point.
<pleia2> ok, I think we have some good ideas here
<godbyk> bkerensa: What's the benefit of using MPs?
<bkerensa> godbyk: Ensure quality
<pleia2> also making an effort to comb through the wiki to find out what else we need to update would be good
<eagles0513875_> brb
<godbyk> Something else that we should try to assess: are there  *new* documentation pages that should be written that don't exist?
<pleia2> I know phillw is still confused about some of the tooling between flavors, and if he's confused than I'm sure other are :) so I think it would be great to get a page together linking to what each uses
<godbyk> So far we've been concerned only with updating existing pages.
<dsmythies> In the next cycle, we would hope that more people will use the new getting started page and contribute via MP, because they are not doc-committers
<bkerensa> godbyk: surely there are lots.... jbicha and I had discussed this a few cycles back
<godbyk> Are there obsolete pages we need to delete?  New pages we need to create?
<bkerensa> Privacy needs a page
<bkerensa> there are lots of things that do
<dsmythies> I put a few "missing" page notes on the google list.
<pleia2> dsmythies: nice
<bkerensa> dsmythies: excellent
<pleia2> any other thoughs before we move off from this topic?
<godbyk> pleia2: Agreed. I think a general cleanup of the ubuntu-docs wiki pages would be helpful. Section off the different subprojects to clarify what pages refer to what.
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> in all I think we did pretty awesomely this cycle all things considered, so good work everyone :)
<pleia2> #topic Adding classroom sessions for wiki / docs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Adding classroom sessions for wiki / docs
<pleia2> I always love classroom sessions :)
<pleia2> who added this? any specific comments?
<godbyk> I'm not sure who added it, but I like the idea.
 * slickymaster thinks that perhaps phillw
<godbyk> It's a great way to introduce people to the docs projects and to reduce the barrier to entry and help with the learning curve.
<bkerensa> probably phillw
<pleia2> the classroom schedule has been pretty sparse lately, so whenever anyone wants to host one, just let me know (or drop by #ubuntu-classroom-backstage)
<bkerensa> good good
<pleia2> there was also talk of doing a "docs day" or tacking it on to something like Open Week if that's done again
<pleia2> maybe take this item to the mailing list so we can brainstorm session ideas and instructors
<godbyk> pleia2: good idea.
<pleia2> #action pleia2 to email list re: classroom sessions
<meetingology> ACTION: pleia2 to email list re: classroom sessions
<pleia2> #topic Collaboration opportunities between documentation projects
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Collaboration opportunities between documentation projects
<pleia2> so I think this was primarily about collaboration with the manual project
<godbyk> I think the manual project would be happy to collaborate with the docs projects.
<godbyk> I don't think we can simply copy and paste text from one to another as the writing styles differ, but I think that we can definitely help each other out.
 * pleia2 nods
<godbyk> For example, we all need to keep track of what docs need to be updated each cycle.
<godbyk> There's no reason we can't share our findings there.
<pleia2> +1
<godbyk> If one team discovers that Application X has changed its UI or somesuch, then they can share that with the other docs teams.
<pleia2> I think that's a great way to start
<godbyk> There's also a lot of general discussion that can be shared among the docs teams, too.
<pleia2> I'm subscribed to both mailing lists, but unfortunately haven't had a look at the manual in a couple cycles
<godbyk> How to improve our technical writing, establishing canonical names for UI elements, and so forth.
<pleia2> yeah, it would be nice to merge our style guidelines
<slickymaster> +1
<godbyk> Yes, many of the style guidelines should be identical across the docs projects.
<pleia2> so maybe we start with those, propose to the manual team a shared wiki/document/whatever for "what's new" then maybe someone can compare our style guidelines and start a dialog there
<pleia2> godbyk: care to take on the "what's new" proposal?
<godbyk> And the closer they're in line with the GNOME docs style guide, the easier it'll be to merge in GNOME docs.
<godbyk> pleia2: Sure!
<phillw> I know that the issue of docs and manual does cause issues; I also know we will not agree upon an common system. Which is somewhat frustrating :) If others would assist on classroom sessions for docs / manual; I'm more than happy to do wiki as either classroom or 1-2-1 sessions.
<pleia2> #action godbyk to propose sharing what's new collaborative docs with manual team
<meetingology> ACTION: godbyk to propose sharing what's new collaborative docs with manual team
<dsmythies> I am not familiar with xubuntu. is there any overlap between ubuntu and xubuntu?
<phillw> for people running the release+1`I'll also be happy to assist as a tester :)
<godbyk> One of the issues I've heard raised about the manual/docs teams is that there's a fear that having two teams reduces the number of contributors to each team.
<pleia2> anyone want to take an action item for reviewing the style guidelines for both teams? I'm thinking review, report findings and then approach both teams to discuss differences and merging them
<godbyk> I'm not sure that's actually the case. If it were, I'd expect to see more overlap in the team membership.
<phillw> dsmythies: we all are from the same family, whilst our DE's are differebt, our core is the same.
<godbyk> For the most part, the manual's style guide should be identical to the Ubuntu docs style guide (and GNOME docs style guide) except for formatting information.
<pleia2> dsmythies: the xubuntu documentation is in docbook and completely different than ubuntu's, maintained by xubuntu folks (including me)
<godbyk> You can find the manual's style guide at <http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf>.
<bkerensa> I have to run
<godbyk> Okay. Thanks for coming, bkerensa!
<eagles0513875_> im back all
<godbyk> Welcome back, eagles0513875_.  We were just discussing collaboration opportunities between documentation projects.
<eagles0513875_> thanks for the update
<eagles0513875_> that is essential
<pleia2> ok, I think we have a good plan here
<eagles0513875_> i can point out one major flaw between community vs official documentatino
<pleia2> I can look at the style guides and report back if needed
<pleia2> #topic Trusty (14.04) DeskTop help series/branch now online
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Trusty (14.04) DeskTop help series/branch now online
<pleia2> hooray \o/
<pleia2> #subtopic How can we start working on ubuntu-docs for 14.04?
<godbyk> I created a new branch and series for trusty. If anyone notices anything wrong with how I have it set up, please let me know. (It's my first time doing so for the ubuntu-docs project.)
<dsmythies> Suggest conintued use of: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AsSw0cKYcffNdFlFakF5M0VjR002UEVvakVPZGpydHc#gid=0
<godbyk> I'd like to finish merging in the GNOME docs that I didn't get to for 13.10.
<dsmythies> Kevin: I had a good look at the setup and didn't see anything wrong.
<eagles0513875_> what is the advantage of using bzr instead of proper document management system to manage document versions
<godbyk> Then we can tackle bugs that have been filed against 13.10 and any bugs filed against earlier versions that we didn't get around to tafixing.
<godbyk> fixing, rather.
<godbyk> dsmythies: Ah, great. Thanks!
<pleia2> should we send a mail to the list reminding folks how to contribute now that it's open?
<pleia2> beyond the branch command :)
<godbyk> eagles0513875_: We use bzr for the system docs because we're using the Mallard markup language. I'm not aware of any online editors for Mallard at the moment.
<pleia2> I can follow up with godbyk's email with some more exact instructions to help folks out
<godbyk> pleia2: Yeah.  A quick, one-page 'here's how to contribute' and 'here's what we need your help with' guide would be helpful.
<pleia2> #action pleia2 to follow up on list re: quick get involved for trusty
<meetingology> ACTION: pleia2 to follow up on list re: quick get involved for trusty
<godbyk> dsmythies: We should also sort out the GNOME Shell/Unity platform-detection issues with Mallard, too.
<eagles0513875_> pleia2: can i bring up another rather heated topic here
<dsmythies> Yes, I think it is important. I did not realize how the issue upsets translators.
<eagles0513875_> which i can back up with examples
<godbyk> dsmythies: Yeah, I didn't either.
<pleia2> ok, I think that's good for how to get involved
<pleia2> #topic Any other business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any other business
<eagles0513875_> pleia2:
<eagles0513875_> 2 things
<pleia2> eagles0513875_: go ahead now (next time please go ahead and add your item to the agenda so we make sure we get to it and it's on the schedule :))
<eagles0513875_> 1) how can we ensure that there arent any discrepencies between community and official documentation
<phillw> pleia2: feel free to ask, I did the re-write of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Activities it was a major roject; but I do feel we need it.
<phillw> *project*
<eagles0513875_> if you look at the community versions of dovecot and postfix and compare to the official 12.04 server guide for instance
<eagles0513875_> they are two different things all together
<pleia2> so I think the key here will be leveraging our bug reporting system to correct these issues
<godbyk> pleia2: +1
<eagles0513875_> 2) i have been looking into the Alfresco document management  and its very extensible as well as very powerful for versioning of documents as well as images
<eagles0513875_> it has a built in wiki as well as bug tracker for each project
<pleia2> no one has looked at them for a long time, once we've got bugs in place we can start working to bring them back up to sync, and maintain them from there
<phillw> eagles0513875_: hopefully with using the tags, we can better get them sync'd up.
<eagles0513875_> phillw: pleia2  i would like to potentially push using alfresco
<eagles0513875_> http://www.alfresco.com/
<eagles0513875_> that would require me to make a juju charm for mhall to use to deploy it for testing
<pleia2> eagles0513875_: I appreciate the work you've put in here, but it's really a major project and I'm thinking that right at this moment we want to work to use the tools we have now that we have an active team
<pleia2> I think the core issue is that for the past few years, no one has been overseeing this
<eagles0513875_> pleia2: agreed it will be a task to implement down the line not necessarily for this release cycle
<eagles0513875_> would it be something i should invest my time in working on a charm for?
<phillw> pleia2: eagles0513875_ that is a +1 from me; it is too big a change to undertake with an LTS coming up.
<pleia2> eagles0513875_: my inclination is to see how we do this next cycle with improving our current infrastructure now that we have the team in place
<phillw> eagles0513875_: go for it!
<pleia2> eagles0513875_: I honestly think your time is much better spent going through the docs and figuring out what is duplicated, incorrect and filing bugs
<phillw> but do not lose time and effort on what we have
<eagles0513875_> agreed and dont get me wrong it might not be ready for even the 14.10 as it would involve working out some kinks wiht open jdk and alfresco
<eagles0513875_> pleia2: agreed can already file two bugs between community and official docs for postfix and dovecot would need to check the 13.10 docs though
<eagles0513875_> phillw: pleia2 you guys seem to be saying two different things
<pleia2> eagles0513875_: indeed we are
<godbyk> eagles0513875_: In addition to getting Alfresco up and running, we also have to consider how it impacts our workflow.
<godbyk> eagles0513875_: For example, right now we inherit a lot of documentation from the GNOME project.
<eagles0513875_> phillw:  you say go for it for future roll out and testing and pleia2 you are saying to wait
<pleia2> eagles0513875_: looks like phillw and I disagree :)
<godbyk> eagles0513875_: How easily can we stay in sync with GNOME if we're using Alfresco?
<eagles0513875_> godbyk: it will be easy to track whose doing what as you can assign tasks to people
<pleia2> eagles0513875_: gnome documentation is written in mallard
<pleia2> that's not going to change
<eagles0513875_> asking in the alfresco channel about that
<phillw> eagles0513875_: please continue to look at alfresco; but 14,04 takes precedence. I do not think that is an opposing postion :)
<eagles0513875_> agreed 14.04 does take presedence.
<eagles0513875_> i think though some sort of approval and verification of the community docs needs to be put in place
<dsmythies> somtimes differences between wiki and official docs is just two different ways of doing the same thing. I find different ways of doing the same thing one of the challenges of linux.
<pleia2> phillw: I just don't want him to waste his time if we do manage to get the docs in order with our current workflow, and we really do need people reviewing the docs and submitting bugs about issues between them
<mhall119> eagles0513875_: might I recommend that before spending a lot of time on a specific implementation, you first put together a wiki spec page detailing the requires & desired features of any solution, and marking how well Alfresco provide them
<pleia2> dsmythies: I'd like to see something like: wiki page links to official documentation, then goes on to explain other ways, additional details, etc
<eagles0513875_> mhall119: not a bad idea but im no pro in terms of wiki writing lol
<dsmythies> Currently, it seems the other way around. The offcical doc refers to the wiki page, at least in serverguide.
<eagles0513875_> O_o
<phillw> pleia2: you get a +1 from me, but also it is good for new comers to look at new systems,. Just because we have always done things one way; does not mean we should ignore changes. But; 14.04 LTS is not the time.
<eagles0513875_> why on earth would official docs refer to community docs which could for anyones concern could be wrong
<eagles0513875_> would it be possible to put in a review mechanism
<eagles0513875_> if we are using bzr is it possible actually to implement something like gerrit which is a patch review system
<bkerensa> :D
<bkerensa> back
<bkerensa> \o/
<pleia2> dsmythies: well I think they can go both ways, official doc references wiki for more details, wiki references official for basics
<eagles0513875_> not sure if it would work for documentation but it is a very useful way to keep trac of changes review them and push them
<eagles0513875_> to bzr potentially im not sure though
<pleia2> eagles0513875_: right now merges from no-core folks need to go through the merge proposal process, so core members review and approve
<pleia2> it's not as good or easy as gerrit, but it works
<eagles0513875_> pleia2: i think everythign should be approved
<godbyk> eagles0513875_: While that would be nice, I don't think we have enough people to manage that.
<eagles0513875_> agreed.
<pleia2> I don't think we want a formal review system on the wiki, freedom is kind of the point of a wiki :) and we do have admins who keep an eye on content as best they can
<eagles0513875_> the lil wiki work i have done with mallard and the wiki system it is a bit cumbersom
<eagles0513875_> pleia2: then someones 7 year old can write something and it will be total and utter rubbish
<pleia2> eagles0513875_: yes, and hopefully one of our wiki admins will delete it
<pleia2> or someone will tag it as such, or somehow it'll be found, it's the wikipedia model
<bkerensa> pleia2: has there been any thought on cleaning up inactive people from doc core etc?
<pleia2> bkerensa: I don't think so
<eagles0513875_> do people get notified when somethign is tagged
<pleia2> eagles0513875_: wiki admins should be subscribed to the whole thing, so yes they would be
<phillw> pleia2: I do, however, ask that we alert as many people as we can to the tags. that will allow many sets of eyes to look at pages and flag things up. I do feel the tagging system has not been used to its full capabilities.
<pleia2> any changes on any page
<godbyk> eagles0513875_: A lot of people subscribe to wiki pages that they're interested in. So they'll receive notification when the page is tagged or modified.
<pleia2> phillw: +1
<bkerensa> phillw: do we know how many wiki pages we have currently?
<bkerensa> is it not in the hundreds or more?
<eagles0513875_> godbyk: is there a way if certain tags are used lets say needs update admins take a look at the page and potentially update it
<pleia2> phillw: what's the url to help wiki tags again?
<phillw> pleia2: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag
<pleia2> eagles0513875_: ^^ there you go
<eagles0513875_> another thign we could do instead of using alfresco as the base. use its api and develop somethign that is more tailor made for ubuntu
<godbyk> eagles0513875_: As an example, you can visit <https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag/NeedsUpdating/List> to see all the pages that have been tageed 'Needs Updating'.
<phillw> eagles0513875_: the wiki machine can go tag hunting :)
<phillw> that's why they need to be at the yop of the page.
<phillw> *top*
<pleia2> godbyk: bad example, that page is broken :) phillw can you fix?
<pleia2> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag/Duplicate/List works
<godbyk> pleia2: I just noticed that. :)
<eagles0513875_> can i be honest
<eagles0513875_> the mallard markup i find to be rather cumbersom to work with
<pleia2> oh, we're over time, so we should wrap up
<eagles0513875_> my fault
<eagles0513875_> i have so many ideas hehe
<phillw> eagles0513875_: we ask for nothing less on a meeting :)
<eagles0513875_> ok last suggestion
<pleia2> eagles0513875_: we're tied to gnome, so it's not something we'll be changing in the near future
<pleia2> unless we can make clones of godbyk
<eagles0513875_> phillw: pleia2  and not for 14.04 something of a long term project
<eagles0513875_> why not use the api for alfresco and develop something tailor made for the canonical projects such as ubuntu kubuntu documentation and others
<pleia2> then you have the problem with making the clones grow fast, and stop growing when they are godbyk's age, and you have to feed them
<bkerensa> pleia2: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/+members#active
<bkerensa> so adam sommers doesnt contribute anymore
 * godbyk does like to eat.
<pleia2> bkerensa: noted, but a discussion for later, I think
<bkerensa> david wonderly also left Kubuntu and Kubuntu killed their docs
<bkerensa> ok
<phillw> eagles0513875_: by all means, but with the LTS coming up and how few we are in number, please to not spend too much time away for us... We need people like you.
<godbyk> bkerensa: We could set expiration dates for everyone and if they don't renew, then they vanish.
<eagles0513875_> phillw: thanks if only you knew how many projects i have on my plate
<bkerensa> godbyk: poof
<eagles0513875_> personal business projects
<godbyk> bkerensa: As long as all the active team members remember to renew (*cough*), it works okay.
<eagles0513875_> i should register lol
<bkerensa> eagles0513875_: surely thats understandable and we also don't want you to get burnt out :)
<pleia2> eagles0513875_: I don't know enough about alfrescos's api to respond intelligently to your proposal, but it certainly may be a way to go :)
<eagles0513875_> pleia2: we coudl even develop an addon for the community as a whole of alfresco that provides mallard support
<eagles0513875_> whats so great about mallard anyway
<pleia2> gnome uses it ;)
<eagles0513875_> you mean upstream?
<godbyk> eagles0513875_: pleia2 pretty well summed it up. The Mallard markup is used both for the desktop help and for generating the HTML for the online help.
<godbyk> eagles0513875_: Yes.
<phillw> this has been a fantastic brain storming session, thanks pleia2 for being the driver :)
<eagles0513875_> i wonder though the html if it could be stripped to leave just the text
<eagles0513875_> humm food for thought there lol
<godbyk> Yeah, thanks for running the meeting, pleia2!
<eagles0513875_> thanks pleia2  :)
<pleia2> ok, thanks everyone :)
<eagles0513875_> btw
<eagles0513875_> probably stupid way to end the meeting it might be a good idea to send out an email with a link on how new members can sign up
<godbyk> eagles0513875_: Mallard is XML-based, so it could be transformed to plain text or other markup languages.
<eagles0513875_> sry for my delayed responses im at work multitasking
<pleia2> eagles0513875_: sign up?
<bkerensa> eagles0513875_: I plan to do quarterly calls for contributors
<eagles0513875_> pleia2: to become an official member of the doc team
<bkerensa> eagles0513875_: they may not be as nice as pleia2's well written one though :)
<eagles0513875_> ok kool :) well i would like to contribute
<eagles0513875_> also may i add if you guys need a testing vps i can happiily provide one :)
<dsmythies> Thanks pleia2 and everyone. I have to exit.
<godbyk> Thanks, eagles0513875_.
<bkerensa> dsmythies: thanks!
<godbyk> Thanks for coming, dsmythies!
<eagles0513875_> so if you want to setup stuff using the steps in the documentation just ping me and let me know and i can ge tit setup :)
<eagles0513875_> thanks dsmythies  :)
<pleia2> team structure is probably a different discussion ;) but I'm not an "official member" and I'm participating
<eagles0513875_> got it
<Riddell> bkerensa: our docs are back in 13.10
<pleia2> you don't need a badge to participate
<eagles0513875_> bkerensa: are you an official document team member
<eagles0513875_> hi Riddell  :)
<pleia2> anyway, time to wrap up!
<pleia2> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Oct 21 20:09:39 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-10-21-19.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-10-21-19.01.html
<bkerensa> thanks all
<bkerensa> :)
<bkerensa> Riddell: excellent! Did valorie pull it off on her own?
<Riddell> bkerensa: no aaron honeycut was the lead
<bkerensa> ah
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-10-22
<jamespage> smb, other
<smb> jamespage, other?
<jamespage> hey folks - postponing Server Team meeting until this week
<jamespage> smb, any others ?
<jamespage> smb, sorry - I know we said we would try todo it
<smb> dunno, have not seen anyone talking
<smb> Ah ok :)
<jamespage> but majority of folks tied up this morning
<smb> No worries
<smb> I know most of you are probably in oakland soonish
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Oct 22 17:00:30 2013 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Trusty
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<ppisati> o/
<ogasawara> o/
<kamal> o/
<henrix> o/
<smb> o/
<bjf> o/
<chiluk> o/
<sforshee> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> Nothing to report this week.
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> Nothing to report here until after vUDS Nov 19-21.
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Trusty Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Trusty Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> The ubuntu-trusty git repo is officially open,
<ogasawara> git://kernel.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ubuntu-trusty.git .  It's been rebased to
<ogasawara> the latest v3.12-rc6 upstream kernel.  We have not yet uploaded to the
<ogasawara> archive but will likely do so soon.
<ogasawara> -----
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TrustyTahr/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara> Thurs Dec 19 - Alpha 1 for opt-in flavors (~8 weeks away)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's
<jsalisbury> The current CVE status can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Saucy/Raring/Quantal/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/sconklin)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Saucy/Raring/Quantal/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/sconklin)
<bjf> Status for the main kernels, until today (Oct. 15):
<bjf>   *   Lucid - Building Kernels
<bjf>   * Precise - Building Kernels
<bjf>   * Quantal - Building Kernels
<bjf>   *  Raring - Building Kernels
<bjf>   *   Saucy - Building Kernels
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>   * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>   * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Oct 22 17:04:10 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-10-22-17.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-10-22-17.00.html
<kamal> thanks jsalisbury
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-10-24
 * slangasek waves
 * stgraber waves
<slangasek> sorry I'm late... fighting with a dying laptop this week :/
<doko> hi
<jodh> o/
<cjwatson> hi
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Oct 24 15:06:40 2013 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek cjwatson xnox stokachu)
<slangasek> doko stgraber bdmurray jodh xnox cjwatson stokachu barry slangasek
<slangasek> doko: you're first :)
<doko> - archive opening
<doko> - arm64 fixes
<doko> - forwarded arm64 patches to Debian
<doko> - scanned arm64 build logs and files bugs (only) in Debian
<doko> - Linaro toolchain updates
<doko> - MIR's, promotions, fixing ftbfs
<doko> (done)
<slangasek> doko: anything noteworthy in the Linaro toolchain updates?
<doko> no, already had most of these changes
<slangasek> ok
<stgraber> (Once again didn't have time for a fancy weekly report, was busy fighting with graphviz)
<stgraber> Ubuntu 13.10 release.
<stgraber> Some help with 14.04 opening.
<stgraber> Quite a few merges and help with ongoing transitions.
<stgraber> Working on LXC upstream QA infrastructure, release 1.0~alpha2 and usual code reviews.
<stgraber> Some debug work on Ubuntu Touch.
<stgraber> (DONE)
<bdmurray> bug triage (lots of release upgrade reports)
<bdmurray> triage and SRU verification of bug 1241420
<bdmurray> tested ubiquity bug 1240683
<bdmurray> worked on a fix for apport bug 1084979
<bdmurray> fixed software-properties bug 1239893
<ubottu> bug 1241420 in libunity (Ubuntu Saucy) "unity held back if ubuntu-desktop is not installed during upgrade from raring to saucy (upgrade fails)" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1241420
<bdmurray> prepared S SRUs for bug 1075537 and bug 1239893
<ubottu> bug 1240683 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Ubuntu one login during install hangs" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1240683
<ubottu> bug 1084979 in apport (Ubuntu) "Submitting error report asks confounding questions" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1084979
<ubottu> bug 1239893 in software-properties (Ubuntu Saucy) "PPAs added using GUI Software and Updates have an extra space added to repository line" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1239893
<ubottu> bug 1075537 in software-properties (Ubuntu Saucy) "software-properties needs to automatically trigger a cache refresh after adding a repo" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1075537
<bdmurray> SRU verification of bug 1075537
<bdmurray> fixed ubuntu-release-upgrader bug 1241123, bug 1241660
<bdmurray> preparing an SRU upload fixing bug 1232363
<bdmurray> update metarelease file for saucy-updates and trusty
<bdmurray> investigation into possible procps regresssion bug 1157643
<ubottu> bug 1241123 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Saucy) "lubuntu-desktop PostUpgradeRemove rule is unnecessary and problematic" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1241123
<ubottu> bug 1241660 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "DistUpgradeFetcherCore error messages not displayed" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1241660
<ubottu> bug 1232363 in update-manager (Ubuntu Saucy) "Update Manager Restart button fails on xubuntu" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1232363
<ubottu> bug 1157643 in procps (Ubuntu Trusty) "procps fail to start" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1157643
<bdmurray> updated the phased updater to ignore already installed and configured pkg install failures
<bdmurray> updated rls- and isotesting reports for trusty
<bdmurray> â done
<jodh> * Boot
<jodh>   - Fixed bug 1240686.
<jodh>   - Investigating overcoming ptrace limitations.
<jodh>   - Fixed minor Session Init-specific issue in 'initctl check-config'.
<ubottu> bug 1240686 in upstart "Upstart overrides the user's umask" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1240686
<jodh>   - Identified cause of bug 901038.
<ubottu> bug 901038 in upstart (Ubuntu) "packages fail to install: Failed to connect to socket /com/ubuntu/upstart: Connection refused" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/901038
<jodh>   - Wrote a fix for bug 1235649.
<ubottu> bug 1235649 in upstart (Ubuntu) "uevent spam causes libdbus client code in session upstart to consume massive amounts of memory on Ubuntu Touch" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1235649
<jodh>     https://code.launchpad.net/~jamesodhunt/upstart/bugs-1235649+1203595/+merge/191852
<jodh>     Original solution was generic but suffered from an annoying
<jodh>     limitation. After discussions with slangasek, we now have a superior
<jodh>     (albeit very d-bus specific) solution that doesn't suffer from the
<jodh>     original fixes limitation. Currently working on the new solution.
<jodh>   - Raised new MP on salvaged new environ_remove() tests from MP above:
<jodh>     https://code.launchpad.net/~jamesodhunt/upstart/environ-remove-tests/+merge/192506
<jodh>   - Raised a couple of boot-related blueprints for vUDS:
<jodh>     https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/core-1311-upstart-roadmap
<jodh>     https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/core-1311-boot-ui
<jodh> * Other
<jodh>   - Wrote sosreport plugins for upstart and procenv (now merged - thanks
<jodh>     stokachu!)
<jodh> Ê
<xnox> * release week was fun, saucy is out
<xnox> * committed a few post-release bugfixes to ubiquity et.al.
<xnox> * boost transition in-progress only a few things left to fix, and
<xnox>   waiting for powerpc to catch up.
<xnox> * Working on emulator:
<xnox>   - build-your-own instructions are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/Emulator
<xnox>   - packaging it into the archive atm, fighting it's build-machinery
<xnox>   to actually build everything from scratch and not use prebuilts
<xnox>   - fixup upstart socket bridge to not clober up PATH, it's built in
<xnox>   non-virt ppa will try adbd on ubuntu host bring up in the emulated
<xnox>   images today.
<xnox> * ps tore my weak ligaments playing volleyball, so on crutches in bed
<xnox>   on painkillers at the moment.
<xnox> * TODO:
<xnox>   - package/upload emulator
<xnox>   - get adbd working
<xnox>   - upstart code reviews
<cjwatson> ow
<xnox>   - ubiquity code reviews (we have a massive merge proposal of
<xnox>   Autopilot driven installations)
<xnox> ..
<cjwatson> too much fun
<barry> xnox: 404
<barry> xnox: er, 500 maybe
<barry> finicky wiki
<cjwatson> Helping to open trusty.
<cjwatson> Coordinating ridiculously complex Perl 5.18 transition.  Cleaning up loose ends now.
<cjwatson> Writing some slide decks for client sprint.
<cjwatson> Merges, merges, merges.  And some build fixes on the side.
<cjwatson> Band-aided bug 1242417.  It's still all a mess.
<ubottu> bug 1242417 in ubuntustudio-default-settings (Ubuntu Trusty) "UEFI install broken when GRUB_DISTRIBUTOR!=Ubuntu (e.g. Kubuntu/UbuntuStudio)" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1242417
<cjwatson> ..
<slangasek> barry: your turn, I think
<barry> slangasek: ah, no stokachu?
<barry> anyway..
<barry> system-image: LP: #1221843; LP: #1238071; LP: #1240434; LP: #1243612; general bug triaging.  LP: #1217098 - nearly done but having very weird problem with not seeing some signals from u-d-m.
<barry> other: LP: #1242835. psutil merge from debian.  dmb meeting.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1221843 in Ubuntu system image "Remove old channels.json format" [Low,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1221843
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1238071 in Ubuntu system image "Switch to nose2" [Low,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1238071
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1240434 in Ubuntu system image "System update UI shows 'last updated in 1970'" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1240434
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1243612 in system-image (Ubuntu) "system-image-cli does not allow to switch from saucy-proposed to trusty-proposed" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1243612
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1217098 in Ubuntu system image "Avoid re-downloading data files" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1217098
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1242835 in Autopilot "Port autopilot script to Python 3" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1242835
<barry> done
<slangasek> well, I didn't hear anything from him, so I assume he's not here :)
<slangasek> stokachu: you here?  or are you sprinting?
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek>  * prep for client sprint next week
<slangasek>  * fighting with a dying laptop... apparently time for a refresh whether I wanted it or not
<slangasek>  * working through my Debian merges for trusty
<slangasek>  * upstart MP reviews
<slangasek>  * working with xnox on getting goldfish into a usable state
<slangasek>  * SRU reviews for saucy (udev fix for maguro, bug #1234743)
<ubottu> bug 1234743 in systemd (Ubuntu Trusty) "omapfb module floods system with udev events on samsung galaxy nexus" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1234743
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> questions anywhere?
<xnox> slangasek: are you getting Lenovo Thinkpad X1 Carbon?
<xnox> =)
<slangasek> xnox: it's one of the ones in the running right now :)
<slangasek> xnox: do you want to steer me away from it? :)
<xnox> slangasek: i think it's the way forward! take one with touch screen!
 * xnox <3 unity8
<slangasek> noted :)
<slangasek> but this time, I'm going to get my plans cross-checked with the kernel team before I buy... failed to do that first with this one and it's given me no end of grief :P
<slangasek> [TOPIC] UDS blueprints
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: UDS blueprints
<slangasek> so UDS is coming up on November 19-21
<slangasek> we've been asked to get our blueprints in by the end of this month
<slangasek> because with it being an online event, it seems that it's harder for people to schedule time when the sessions are moving around on the schedule at the last minute
<slangasek> so a few people have already started registering their blueprints, which is good
<slangasek> I'll have some more blueprints that I'll get in touch with people individually about getting on the schedule
<slangasek> otherwise, please get blueprints registered for anything you think we need to talk about :)
<slangasek> BTW, this time around there's going to be a Core track instead of a Foundations track
<slangasek> no more running kernel sessions on the foundations track :-)
<slangasek> any questions?
<cjwatson> I wonder if there'll actually be any room for our slots :)
<cjwatson> Who's running the core track?  Alex?
<cjwatson> (In terms of video operation and such)
<slangasek> I expect it's the engineering managers running them
<slangasek> the core track is officially expanded to two "rooms" fwiw
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<slangasek> great work on 13.10, y'all, and on a speedy opening for trusty :)
<bdmurray> I was wondering what the plan with bug 1069133 was, as lots of people upgrading ran into this issue.
<ubottu> bug 1069133 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "Get upgrade error 12.04 - 12.10 "Could not determine upgrade" - xorg from ppa" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1069133
<barry> 13.10.  that's so last week. :)  already on trusty (at least on one machine so far)
<doko> what about +1 maintenance this cycle?
<slangasek> xnox: hmm, that bug is assigned to you, but it was assigned back in March. ;)  Do you remember anything about it?
<xnox> slangasek: i think i assigned it to myself as I was also affected by it at the time.
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> do you recall if we had any idea at the time what to do to improve this?
<xnox> slangasek: as far as I remember the solution was to either (a) ppa-purge X-swat ppa before upgrading & downgrade to release or (b) upgrade with X-swat ppa enabled, upgraded to next one
<slangasek> right
<xnox> slangasek: at the moment, we disable ppa and try upgrade.... which does not work. I wonder if we can do an upgrade calculation with downgrading $core packages to release first.
<xnox> or at least say you have packages from these PPAs installed, would you like to get rid of them first, before upgrading?
<slangasek> that seems like a fair option
<slangasek> do you want to take a stab at that this next/week with bdmurray?
<xnox> slangasek: ok.
<slangasek> xnox: thanks
<xnox> slangasek: at the latest, we can do a quirk for xorg-edgers/ppa, since it's probably so common.
<slangasek> doko: +1 maintenance> I will bring that up with the engineering managers next week at the client sprint
 * xnox "latest?!" i mean "at least"
<doko> slangasek, I'll visit you on Friday ;)
<slangasek> doko: heh
<slangasek> doko: you mean you're not coming to the every-DD-in-the-Bay beering on Wednesday? :)
<doko> so tell me when the party starts ...
<doko> slangasek, no it's the evening for the toolchain working group wine and cheese party =)
<slangasek> hah
<slangasek> priorities
<slangasek> ok - anything else?
<slangasek> #endmeeting
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<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Oct 24 15:41:33 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-10-24-15.06.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-10-24-15.06.html
<slangasek> thanks, folks :)
<barry> thanks!
<stgraber> thanks!
<jodh> thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-10-25
<ahoneybun> hello all
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-10-27
<jose> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, ScottK, Laney, micahg, barry, tumbleweed, stgraber: DMB ping
<micahg> jose: there's no meeting now
<micahg> not sure why it's there
<jose> micahg: hmm, do you want me to delete it? it's on repeat, every 4 weeks on sunday
<micahg> yeah, we should have 2 meetings alternating with the TB on MOnday at 19:00 and 15:00
<micahg> I thought it was my calendar having issues
<jose> micahg: fixed now :)
<micahg> jose: thanks
<jose> sure :)
<AlanBell> evening all
<jose> hey, AlanBell
<AlanBell> @now utc
<ubottu> Current time in Etc/UTC: October 27 2013, 21:00:21
<meetingology> AlanBell: Error: "now" is not a valid command.
<AlanBell> hmm, it seems to have done a daylight savings adjustment or something
<AlanBell> #startmeeting IRC team
<meetingology> Meeting started Sun Oct 27 21:03:51 2013 UTC.  The chair is AlanBell. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
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<AlanBell> not been very organised about advance notifications for this meeting, but here we are
<AlanBell> and I have been kinda busy/mostly offline for a while
<AlanBell> #topic Review last meetings action items
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<IdleOne> o/
<AlanBell> there were no action items recorded, but we were going to do the cloak removals of expired members, don't think we got far with that
<AlanBell> #action ircc to do the cloak removals
<meetingology> ACTION: ircc to do the cloak removals
<AlanBell> I will have a crack at it this week
<AlanBell> #topic Open items in the IRCC tracker
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<AlanBell> none, just checked it
<AlanBell> #topic Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council
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<AlanBell> no bugs
<AlanBell> #topic Operator Applicants
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<AlanBell> we are at the start of a new development cycle, Trusty Tahir
<AlanBell> nope, got that wrong
<AlanBell> Trusty Tahr
<AlanBell> and we have a general intake of operators in line with the development cycle, so it is time to process the queues and see what applicants there are
<IdleOne> Anybody who is disillusioned enough to believe they can make a difference?
<AlanBell> **** Team **** #kubuntu-devel IRC Operators
<AlanBell> 14517 https://launchpad.net/~smartboyhw Howard Chan
<AlanBell> just the one :)
<IdleOne> go ahead and +o him then :)
<AlanBell> hang on, might be some more
<AlanBell> **** Team **** #ubuntu-offtopic IRC Operators
<AlanBell> 44 https://launchpad.net/~robtongue Rob Tongue
<AlanBell> **** Team **** #xubuntu IRC Operators
<AlanBell> 13 https://launchpad.net/~mystic-scientist Kaulbach
<AlanBell> 21:08 >> OpenURL 12
<AlanBell> **** Team **** #ubuntu IRC Operators
<AlanBell> 44 https://launchpad.net/~robtongue Rob Tongue
<AlanBell> that seems to be it
<AlanBell> Rob Tongue is phunyguy
<IdleOne> I think genii is a given
<AlanBell> yeah, existing operators are basically a given
<AlanBell> anyhow, I will go through that with the rest of the IRCC and we will make fairly swift decisions I imagine
<IdleOne> Sounds like an action plan
 * genii sips
<AlanBell> #topic Membership applications
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<AlanBell> none today
<AlanBell> #topic Any Other Business
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<AlanBell> anyone else got any comments or questions?
<IdleOne> none right now for me
<AlanBell> ok, I will note that we will be kicking off the next IRCC election next month, we expire at the end of December
<AlanBell> charter and details are here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil
<IdleOne> do we know how many seats will be up for grabs?
<AlanBell> in fact, as we have to do a shortlist to the CC before we can open voting I think we should kick it off sooner rather than later to give people time to do wiki pages and the like
<AlanBell> I think all 5 of us expire at the same time
<AlanBell> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-irc-council/+members
<genii> Strange, on most boards, terms are offset so that there is never a complete turnover in a single election.
<AlanBell> we actually syncronised it kind of intentionally
<AlanBell> Tm_T joined 6 months after the others, but the expiry date was brought into line
<AlanBell> mainly so we don't have more elections to manage than neccessary
<AlanBell> we are all able to stand again, multiple terms are fine, I would be surprised at a complete turnover, but we haven't really discussed intentions around standing again
<AlanBell> anyhow, I would expect a more full discussion of the election process next month, but I will probably send an initial email to the list and announce in a few places that people thinking of standing for election to the IRCC should familiarise themselves with the process and check their wiki page
<AlanBell> anything else for now?
<AlanBell> #endmeeting
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<meetingology> Meeting ended Sun Oct 27 21:28:13 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-10-27-21.03.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-10-27-21.03.html
<AlanBell> thanks all
<IdleOne> thank you
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-10-20
 * xnox o/
<Laney> hi
<Laney> is Filip Sohajek here?
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-10-21
<rbasak> o/
<gnuoy> o/
<arges> o/
<rbasak> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Oct 21 16:00:36 2014 UTC.  The chair is rbasak. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
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<kickinz1> \o
<rbasak> I see no action points from the last meeting.
<rbasak> #topic Utopic Development
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<rbasak> Release in two days! Are we ready?
<caribou> rbasak: shouldn't it be Vivid now ;-) ?
<rbasak> Vivid isn't open for development yet :-P
<rbasak> #subtopic Release Bugs
<rbasak> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-u-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<rharper> o/
<jamespage> \o
<lutostag> o/
<rbasak> I think the High and Critical bugs in this list are already being taken care of.
<matsubara> o/
<rbasak> It looks unlikely that the rest are going to be fixed at this stage of the cycle.
<rbasak> #subtopic Blueprints
<rbasak> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-u/group/topic-u-server.html
<rbasak> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-u-server
<rbasak> Can everyone update their blueprints?
<rbasak> I see a fair bit left here still.
<rbasak> Presumably these are already done or won't make it?
<rbasak> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
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<rbasak> caribou: over to you
<caribou> rbasak: nothing particular; working on automating kdump-tool testing
<rbasak> OK, thanks!
<rbasak> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
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<rbasak> psivaa_: around?
<psivaa_> rbasak: not much of an update from us
<rbasak> OK. Any questions for psivaa_?
<rbasak> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
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<smb> Nothing from here.
<rbasak> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
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<coreycb> o/
<rbasak> OpenStack Summit is coming up of course.
<rbasak> Anything else?
<rbasak> Discuss EOLing qemu machine types (and legacy roms) (hallyn, rharper)
<rbasak> hallyn can't make it, so deferring this until the next meeting.
<rbasak> #topic Open Discussion
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<rbasak> Does anything have anything they'd like to raise?
<rharper> rbasak: I'm here if you wanted to discuss the EOLing a bit
<rbasak> Sure.
<rbasak> Is there a decision we need to make here?
<rharper> so background, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QemuPTMigration
<rharper> there is a decision w.r.t how long/how far to care the the legacy machine types from previous LTS releases w.r.t do we support live migration from an instance on an old LTS to current release
<rharper> there is on-going maint. w.r.t keeping roms around , as well as handling any of the potential issues w.r.t qemu machine imcompatibility  between releases.
<rbasak> Can I suggest that this goes to an appropriate mailing list?
<rharper> from trusty onward, qemu has a ubuntu_release named machine which will help disambiguate it from the defaults in qemu
<rharper> rbasak: indeed
<rbasak> It sounds like there are some complicated implications here, and we should make sure that stakeholders have an opportunity to comment.
<coreycb> rharper, and maybe to an openstack mailing list
<rharper> rbasak: additionally coreycb brought up that this hits openstack upgrades with folks doing a precise -> trusty upgrade
<rbasak> coreycb: +1
<rbasak> Thanks for summarising the issue.
<rharper> sure
<coreycb> rharper, upgrades to trusty that are entirely on precise too
<rbasak> Shall we leave this for now then, and take it to an ML?
<rharper> I think that's best
<rbasak> Any other topics for Open Discussion?
<coreycb> s/trusty/icehoue above
<rbasak> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
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<coreycb> icehouse
<rbasak> The next meeting will be on Tue Oct 28 16:00:00 UTC 2014.
<rbasak> hallyn will chair.
<rbasak> I don't think there's anything on that will clash with that, right?
<gnuoy> Norwich beer festival
<rbasak> :-)
<caribou> haloween ?
<rbasak> "Apologies for my absense, I was drinking beer"
<rbasak> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Oct 21 16:14:37 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-10-21-16.00.moin.txt
<gnuoy> thanks rbasak
<kickinz1> thanks, rbasak
<rharper> rbasak: thanks!
<caribou> rbasak: thanks!
<matsubara> Thanks rbasak
<med_> rbasak, thanks for scrollback!
<YoBoY> bonsoir
<skellat> YoBoY: Bonsoir comrade
<YoBoY> :)
<IdrogN> bonsoir
<cm-t> bonsoir :)
<SergioMeneses> YoBoY, \o
<YoBoY> hi SergioMeneses :)
<SergioMeneses> hi YoBoY ! how you been?
<YoBoY> tired and busy :) and you ?
<costales> Hi!
<Cytheria> hello guys !
<SergioMeneses> YoBoY, like you! jejeje
<cm-t> heya !
<PabloRubianes> hi YoBoY
<skellat> Are we ready to begin the meeting?
<PabloRubianes> yes
<skellat> #startmeeting Regular LoCo Council Meeting for October 2014
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Oct 21 20:00:07 2014 UTC.  The chair is skellat. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
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<skellat> #topic Opening Business
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<skellat> #subtopic Listing of Sitting Members of LoCo Council
<skellat> #info For the avoidance of uncertainty and doubt, it is necessary to list the members of the council who are presently serving active terms.
<skellat> #info Marcos Costales, term expiring 2015-04-16
<skellat> #info JosÃ© Antonio Rey, term expiring 2015-10-04
<skellat> #info Pablo Rubianes, term expiring 2015-04-16
<skellat> #info Sergio Meneses, term expiring 2015-10-04
<skellat> #info Stephen Michael Kellat, term expiring 2015-10-04
<skellat> #info There is currently one vacant seat on LoCo Council
<skellat> #subtopic Roll Call
<skellat> At this point we need to proceed with a roll call of LoCo Council members.
<skellat> A quorum to transact business during today's meeting is 3.
<skellat> During the following vote members of the council should vote "+1" to indicate their presence.
<skellat> #voters PabloRubianes SergioMeneses skellat jose costales
<meetingology> Current voters: PabloRubianes SergioMeneses costales jose skellat
<skellat> #vote LoCo Council Roll Call (All Members Present To Vote In Favor To Register Attendance)
<meetingology> Please vote on: LoCo Council Roll Call (All Members Present To Vote In Favor To Register Attendance)
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<skellat> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from skellat
<PabloRubianes> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from PabloRubianes
<SergioMeneses> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from SergioMeneses
<costales> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from costales
<skellat> Are there any other members of LoCo Council wishing to indicate their attendance?
<skellat> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: LoCo Council Roll Call (All Members Present To Vote In Favor To Register Attendance)
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<skellat> #topic Re-Verification: France
<skellat> Before today is a re-verification application from the team in France.  I will call upon the team's representative to speak to their application briefly.  Members of the Council will, of course, have questions to ask as we discuss the matter.
<skellat> The application is available for viewing on the wiki infrastructure. -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FrenchTeam/ReVerificationApplication
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<skellat> Who is here to speak for the LoCo of France?
<IdrogN> yes
<cm-t> IdrogN: will talk for us
<skellat> Greetings IdrogN
<costales> Hi IdrogN! |o/
<skellat> Tell us a bit about what is happening in France
<IdrogN> pleased to meet you all
<skellat> Thank you
<IdrogN> First, let me introduce myself, i'm David, the new head of Ubuntu-Fr board (we are a "legal" association)
<cm-t> mister president :)
<IdrogN> cm-t & yoboy, who are also here, are members of the board too
<cm-t> hi
<IdrogN> Shall we proceed to the lecture?
<skellat> Certainly
<IdrogN> You can find our application there: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FrenchTeam/ReVerificationApplication2014
<olive> bonsoir
<IdrogN> (olive is also a member of the board)
<cm-t> (and maybe since the begining of ubuntu-fr if I am not false)
<IdrogN> So, as you know, we organise a lot of events. The most important ones are the release party and the Paris Ubuntu Parties
<olive> maybe, maybe
<PabloRubianes> really nice application
<cm-t> oups, i forgot to remove the "we need you",  i remove it asap
<IdrogN> We are currently organising the next Ubuntu Party which will be hosted at la CitÃ© des Sciences by mid-november and that occupies us a lot
<cm-t> (done, no more ads "we need you")
<PabloRubianes> Are you having any problem we can help in?
<IdrogN> Next week, there will be the release party for the 14.10. During thisrelease party, we will meet to organise the next Ubuntu Party (UP) and train the volunteers
<YoBoY> (this saturday more exactly)
<IdrogN> @Pablo: for the next UP ?
<meetingology> IdrogN: Error: "Pablo:" is not a valid command.
<IdrogN> Pablo: for the next UP?
<PabloRubianes> IdrogN: I mean in the team
<IdrogN> Pablo : everything seems to be quite ok
<SergioMeneses> awesome guys!
<skellat> What are your plans for 2015?
<IdrogN> As usual, 2 UP (15.4 & 15.10), several meetings & meet-ups with local teams & other association from the Free Software ecosystem
<skellat> Excellent
<costales> You're in a lot of social networks :)) Which of them is working better for you?
<IdrogN> More webcafÃ©s in more festivals
<IdrogN> twitter mostly
<IdrogN> for 2015, we can add that we will try to develop the association by recruiting more volunteers and using new tools to be more efficient
<skellat> Excellent.
<PabloRubianes> IdrogN: great!
<skellat> Fellow Council members, are we ready to vote?
<PabloRubianes> yes
<costales> Yes
<skellat> #vote That the re-verification application of France be approved and that the period of verification be extended for a period of two years from this date.
<meetingology> Please vote on: That the re-verification application of France be approved and that the period of verification be extended for a period of two years from this date.
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<PabloRubianes> +1 great work
<meetingology> +1 great work received from PabloRubianes
<costales> +1 This is one of the best applications I've ever seen. Really an awesome work, team! Thanks!!
<meetingology> +1 This is one of the best applications I've ever seen. Really an awesome work, team! Thanks!! received from costales
<SergioMeneses> +1 congrats :D
<meetingology> +1 congrats :D received from SergioMeneses
<skellat> +1 an excellent example to be followed
<meetingology> +1 an excellent example to be followed received from skellat
<skellat> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: That the re-verification application of France be approved and that the period of verification be extended for a period of two years from this date.
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<IdrogN> thank you
<PabloRubianes> keep the great work French Team
<YoBoY> thanks you everyone for your support :)
<skellat> Congratulations to the French team.  We'll be updating things on Launchpad after this meeting concludes.
<costales> Congrats team!
<cm-t> thanks dear loco council <3, and thank to our new president to lead our lecture :')
<skellat> #topic Update on open cases before the LoCo Council
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Regular LoCo Council Meeting for October 2014 | Current topic: Update on open cases before the LoCo Council
<skellat> May I have permission to put in the record a list of our pending verification and re-verification proceedings?
<IdrogN> merci Ã  l'Ã©quipe :)
<cm-t> ^^
<PabloRubianes> skellat: yes
<skellat> #agreed That information may be placed in the meeting record as to the list of pending LoCo Council proceedings.
<skellat> #info LoCo Council presently has before it pending verification and re-verification proceedings for the following LoCo Teams: Mauritius, Finland, Netherlands, Peru, Russia, Serbia.
<skellat> #topic The loco-contacts thread "Our teams reject the new LoCo Council policy"
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Regular LoCo Council Meeting for October 2014 | Current topic: The loco-contacts thread "Our teams reject the new LoCo Council policy"
<skellat> There are many things relevant to the most recent thread on loco-contacts.
<skellat> I will bring up that, in parallel to this, Daniel holbach discussed on ubuntu-community-team various thoughts about recognizing and incorporating non-LoCo groups. -- https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-community-team/2014-October/000044.html
<skellat> The original start to this thread is available for reading and the thread did generate some rancor and heated discussion. -- https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/loco-contacts/2014-October/006791.html
<skellat> The new SubLoCo policy is what caused much of the concern in this thread. -- http://lococouncil.ubuntu.com/2014/09/16/new-subloco-policy/
<skellat> I don't want to discuss this for too long.
<skellat> Is there anything we can add here today other than taking note of what Mr. Holbach is doing?
<PabloRubianes> I think that the new policy is clear as it is
<SergioMeneses> everything is there!
<PabloRubianes> and have the proper workarounds
<nhaines> I recommend that the LoCo Council carefully consider how they represent policies in response to queries on the mailing list.
<felipexil> From my point of view, the "exceptions" are not clear, but I don't want to open the discussion here
<skellat> Okay
<olive> thx
<nhaines> For instance, it was insinuated that independant status for LoCo teams of autonomous subregions would be somewhat of an uphill battle.
<nhaines> And then later insinuated that it would probably be a rote overview.
<costales> Good point nhaines
<nhaines> And skellat, you asked that conversation stop on the mailing list because this meeting was the only proper venue, and now you're saying that you don't want to spend much time on it.
<skellat> nhaines: Coming up on the agenda will be consideration of requests from the Galician and Asturian teams.
<nhaines> It's clear from the actual announced policy that a great deal of thought was put into the general guidelines.
<nhaines> So when questions about hypothetical (or not so hypothetical) situations are met with mixed messages, that creates a lack of confidence.
<PabloRubianes> let me clear some points here
<skellat> nhaines: I do want to ensure we reach the Galician and Asturian requests before 2100 UTC
<skellat> That is all
<rww> If there wasn't public discussion of this policy before it was established, that probably would have helped decrease confusion. Something to bear in mind for the future.
<PabloRubianes> I don't see the confusion
<skellat> Ah
<skellat> Part of that is bringing Debian paradigms into Ubuntu
<rww> PabloRubianes: I think that regardless of the correctness of various emails on loco-contacts@, it's blatantly obvious that some people were confused.
<PabloRubianes> if a team don't want to a subteam they can ask to be an independent loco
<nhaines> I think the confusion is that the policy (presumably) was designed to address existing LoCos who wanted "official" subteams, and the policy was designed to be an operating guidelines for those teams.
<rww> Now, personally I'm fine with the policy, but as a LoCo leader, I'd prefer that future policy not come out of nowhere from a public point of view. Hence, prior discussion.
<costales> PabloRubianes, "if a team don't want to a subteam they can ask to be an independent loco". Could we append that to the policy?
<PabloRubianes> nhaines: the last 2 sentences of the policy are clearly address for teams who don't want to be sublocos
<skellat> "In the event what is considered a sub-team wants to be considered a LoCo, it will need to present a request to the LoCo Council."
<skellat> We have two of those requests coming up later in this meeting to address.
<PabloRubianes> costales: the policy states "In the event what is considered a sub-team wants to be considered a LoCo, it will need to present a request to the LoCo Council."
<PabloRubianes> thats the same!
<costales> I didn't read in the last days
<SergioMeneses> I don't know if we are missing something but I don't get the point, I saw everything cover with the new policy
<costales> ;) sorry
<nhaines> Yes, but the fact that alarmed LoCo teams were told "read the policy" instead of being reassured is disappointing.
<felipexil> PabloRubianes: the policy is not clear for a group of people, so even in the case it is clear for you, it is obvious that there is a problem
<xuacu> I think that exixting LoCos were quite confused about being demoted fron LoCo to SubLoCo ;)
<felipexil> as nhaines said, the problem is that the policy was written from a point of view that is not reflected in the policy itsefl
<costales> Good point xuacu
<PabloRubianes> xuacu: the problem is some existent locos where out of the old policy too
<felipexil> there is a lack of context, and the "policy" is going to be interpreted without that point of view
<PabloRubianes> we made the new policy to contemplate them and have every loco on the same page
<nhaines> So once again, my advice is that the Council carefully consider the response to alarmed community members.  "RTFM" is something the Ubuntu project was founded to eliminate.
<PabloRubianes> nhaines: none made RTFM
<nhaines> I would be happy to provide links after the meeting.
<skellat> No, nhaines, please provide them in the record
<PabloRubianes> yes
<SergioMeneses> sure
<nhaines> Is the LoCo Council willing to delay the Galacian and Asturian requests while I cross-reference my email with the web archives?
<PabloRubianes> nhaines:yes
<costales> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/loco-contacts/2014-October/006802.html
<nhaines> Then I will do my best to be prompt.
<costales> JosÃ© Antonio Rey: "Please, read the whole policy." Unique phrase
<costales> for me it's a RTFM
<nhaines> costales: agreed.
<PabloRubianes> that's not
<xuacu> costales: +1
<PabloRubianes> they where reading the first part
<PabloRubianes> the end of the policy is where the independent locos are allow
<PabloRubianes> the last 2 sentences
<felipexil> PabloRubianes... How can you know what the other people were reading?
<costales> I didn't like too this: The LoCo Council isn't listen their teams/users
<nhaines> "Please read the whole policy" and "read the fucking manual" are functionally identical.
<costales> If the users/teams like change something, we have to listen them :)
<nhaines> felipexil: it's pretty clear he didn't read the entire policy, but that's no excuse not to clarify.
<PabloRubianes> felipexil: because as costales just did they where asking for something the policy states
<rww> I think "is the policy okay" and "were there issues with the way discussion proceeded before and after the announcement of the policy" are two different topics.
<rww> nhaines is quite clearly talking about the latter. Defending the policy is not addressing that.
<nhaines> Yes, the policy seems quite reasonable to me.  A codification of current best practice.
<costales> I think we have a lot of teams and it's impossible a rule for all of them :)
<skellat> And that is where internal debate among LoCo Council members filtered outward and one person's opposition to a majority vote brings us to today's discussion
<rww> amongst other issues, such as lack of prior communication, handling of the ensuing thread after announcement, etc. etc.
<nhaines> Which one person opposed which majority vote and how did that lead to this discussion today?
<xuacu> skellat: you can't avoid this kind of discussion sooner or later :)
<PabloRubianes> wait a sec
<PabloRubianes> lets get another angle of this
<PabloRubianes> xuacu: for example
<PabloRubianes> what do you think is wrong with the policy?
<felipexil> And... I would like to point out that the sentence "In the event what is considered a sub-team wants to be considered a LoCo, it will need to present a request to the LoCo Council." is not clear at all
<felipexil> "what is considered a sub-team" should be defined
<felipexil> (at least, it is not clear for me)
<skellat> Okay
<xuacu> Pablo: just the point felixepil brings up
<nhaines> felipexil: it does seem to indicate that an autonomous region would need to become a subteam to the existing team before asking for consideration.
<felipexil> nhaines: +1
<felipexil> and, the two first sentences of the policy make this difficult
<SergioMeneses> ok let me see if I get the point, you want to have 2 official subteams in the same city, right? ( by instance )
<felipexil> Each team will be a country (or state in the United States). We will call this a âLoCoâ. Each LoCo can have sub-teams. This sub-teams will be created at the will and need of each LoCo.
<costales> SergioMeneses, Nobody talked about cities ;)
<xuacu> and that begs the next question: could a subLoCo be denied to become a LoCO?
<SergioMeneses> costales, city or state or region
<costales> SergioMeneses, It's not the same for us
<PabloRubianes> xuacu: it depends on the case
<xuacu> and where are the guidelines to be accepted or rejected?
<felipexil> According to the two first sentences of the policy, only countries can be LoCo, and sub-teams will be created only at "the will and need of that LoCo", and it seems that to be promoted to a "LoCo", it is necessary to be a sub-LoCo. T
<PabloRubianes> felipexil: that was the old policy
<PabloRubianes> just that
<PabloRubianes> so ubuntu-cat or ubuntu-ast were outside the policy
<nhaines> There was also a question about how a theoretical Basque LoCo would represent the Basque population found in the US.  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/loco-contacts/2014-October/006847.html
<nhaines> I would in turn ask how the Ohio LoCo is representing the interests of the Ohioan population outside of Ohio.
<nhaines> But this seems to indicate a predisposition to rejecting autonomous regions looking to become independent LoCos.
<costales> Good point too: The Basque LoCo would be in 2 countries
<nhaines> costales: a cultural identity with a unique language that happens to straddle two countries that came long later.
<PabloRubianes> nhaines costales with that view all the latin america would be one 1 loco
<felipexil> PabloRubianes: I copied the text from the new policy...
<PabloRubianes> felipexil: the old policy was just "one country one loco"
<felipexil> PabloRubianes: yes, but the exception is not clear
<PabloRubianes> now we added the rest to let provinces or cities have their loco if they don't want to be part of the national loco
<felipexil> PabloRubianes: it is not clear who is a "what is considered a sub-team"
<PabloRubianes> felipexil: any team that is not a country loco
<SergioMeneses> felipexil, a group of people
<PabloRubianes> yes
<felipexil> PabloRubianes: SergioMeneses: could that not be clarified in the policy?
<nhaines> I rather like the language "In the event that what is or would be considered a sub-team wants to be considered a LoCo".
<felipexil> PabloRubianes: SergioMeneses: (remove the "not" in my previous sentence)
<costales> PabloRubianes, then, we are treating a team without country as >>> "Sub" << this is bad in itself.
<nhaines> The problem is that the new policy immediately states "LoCos not meeting the criteria of country/state teams will be denied verification."
<PabloRubianes> felipexil: it could be
<PabloRubianes> but there's the fact that the only country that have locos working as independent at the moment is spain
<PabloRubianes> but if you feel more confortable with that we can clarified this
<costales> I'd like to hear to Quebec, Brittany...
<costales> No all people read the mail list
<rww> I could point out the United States, but I expect that would just be pedantry ;)
<PabloRubianes> rww: USA was the only exception when Locos where created
<PabloRubianes> and I think is not fare to have different rules for them
<skellat> rww: And the USA is definitely an exception as it a dual system of sovereigns.
<rww> PabloRubianes: I'm aware of the history involved, probably more than you are. I was pointing out a slight inaccuracy in your comment.
<PabloRubianes> but the new policy give the same posibility to the rest of the world
<nhaines> That the LoCo Council knew that Spain had independant LoCos and was still completely unprepared to address their concerns is a little disappointing.
<rww> (my concerns, again, don't rest with the policy but the way it was communicated, hence me not really talking right now)
<skellat> Right now I don't want to disappoint the Galician and Asturian teams but we're approaching 2057 UTC
<skellat> Do they have representatives present to make their requests?
<felipexil> skellat: /me from the Galician Team
<rww> skellat: remaining unaddressed concerns should go where? List, next meeting...?
<xuacu> For Asturian Loco, varela or me
 * ivarela too, for Asturian
<skellat> rww: We will return to that matter in a few minutes
<rww> skellat: thank you
<skellat> #topic Requests from the Galician and Asturian teams
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Regular LoCo Council Meeting for October 2014 | Current topic: Requests from the Galician and Asturian teams
<skellat> Now that the Galician and Asturian representatives are present, we can proceed.
<skellat> The policy, in its essentials, does not stipulate what the request should look like.
<felipexil> There was a lot of confussion in the mailing list. It was stated that existing LoCos will remain as indendent LoCos
<felipexil> I would like to confirm this
<skellat> felipexil: We will address that later under "Any Other Business".  Right now it is out of order.
<PabloRubianes> felipexil: this is your request to be independent loco
<felipexil> PabloRubianes: yes
<skellat> Representatives of the teams, for the purposes of today's meeting, need merely make the following request: "That the XX Team be considered an independent LoCo team notwithstanding representing less than a country"
<skellat> With the name of the team substitute for XX
<ivarela> yes
<skellat> Would the representatives of the teams please state their formal requests?
<ivarela> I think it's the same case for both. The two groups have cultures, languages ââand history that allows us to work at the same level as a LoCo with state
<skellat> xuacu, do you make the same request?
<felipexil> We (the Galician team) make the same request
<xuacu> I'm waiting for ivarela to do it, I could do on his behalf if he's not present
<skellat> Fellow Council members, the requests have been made.  Are you ready to vote on each item so as to dispose of the requests?
<costales> skellat, I'll no vote this time, because these teams are like brothers for me :)
<PabloRubianes> ok, can I ask why you don't want to be part of the Spain Team?
<ivarela> Where do you live PabloRubianes ?
<PabloRubianes> Uruguay
<ivarela> Do you feel you are argentinian?
<ivarela> That's the same.
<PabloRubianes> no
<PabloRubianes> you are in the same country
<xuacu> Asturian LoCo has it's own workflow. Despite our excellent relationships with es-LoCo we want to keep things as they are now
<felipexil> PabloRubianes: the Galician team is organized around our "culture", specially by our language
<felipexil> we want to collaborate with all the teams
<felipexil> and very specially with the teams in the Iberian Peninsula
<PabloRubianes> felipexil: I respect that, and I know that you have your language
<ivarela> anyway, culture and language is not the same. And we will not go back.
<PabloRubianes> ok
<ivarela> tebanpb, Llumex03 and dangerouspiper can say exactly the same
<Llumex03> Yep
<PabloRubianes> lets vote then
<dangerouspiper> +1
<xuacu> of course, our collaboration with es-LoCo will go on as usual, but as independent teams
<skellat> There will be two separate votes
<skellat> #vote That the Galician Team, pursuant to their request this day, be considered an independent LoCo team notwithstanding representing less than a country.
<meetingology> Please vote on: That the Galician Team, pursuant to their request this day, be considered an independent LoCo team notwithstanding representing less than a country.
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<skellat> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from skellat
<PabloRubianes> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from PabloRubianes
<SergioMeneses> 0
<meetingology> 0 received from SergioMeneses
<skellat> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: That the Galician Team, pursuant to their request this day, be considered an independent LoCo team notwithstanding representing less than a country.
<meetingology> Votes for:2 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<skellat> #vote That the Asturian Team, pursuant to their request this day, be considered an independent LoCo Team notwithstanding representing less than a country.
<meetingology> Please vote on: That the Asturian Team, pursuant to their request this day, be considered an independent LoCo Team notwithstanding representing less than a country.
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<skellat> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from skellat
<PabloRubianes> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from PabloRubianes
<SergioMeneses> 0
<meetingology> 0 received from SergioMeneses
<skellat> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: That the Asturian Team, pursuant to their request this day, be considered an independent LoCo Team notwithstanding representing less than a country.
<meetingology> Votes for:2 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<skellat> #info Marcos Costales, in his capacity as leader of Ubuntu Spain and as a member of LoCo Council, stood aside from both votes.
<skellat> The requests are granted.  The Asturian team is reminded that re-verification is still due at the deadline specified on Launchpad.
<felipexil> Thanks!
<skellat> #topic Any Other Business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Regular LoCo Council Meeting for October 2014 | Current topic: Any Other Business
<skellat> What other business is there before the LoCo Council at this time?  It is presently 2113 UTC.
<xuacu> Thank you all for hearing us
<skellat> xuacu: If you had written to us as asked prior we could have disposed of this even more quickly.
<nhaines> What is the preferred forum for exception requests?
<ivarela> Thank you very much
<ivarela> felipexil, gracies home!!
<skellat> nhaines: We're still debating that internally.  This is the first time we've approached such since the policy was adopted so most of it was handled in a pro forma fashion.
<skellat> If we had been written to, the turnaround would possibly have been quicker.  We only hold one IRC meeting per month.
<skellat> When in doubt, write to us.
<skellat> We try to not let things get hung up due to the calendar if we can avoid it.
<nhaines> So provisionally, the preferred form of contact is via email to the LoCo Council?
<skellat> For now, yes.
<skellat> #info Those who have requests of the LoCo Council are advised to write to it at loco-council@lists.ubuntu.com for assistance.
<skellat> rww: Do you wish to continue discussion of your matter?  We're unfortunately not quorate at this point as Sergio and Pablo had to depart.
<rww> sorry, work matter. yes.
<xuacu> still, it's very likely that things goes out of control
<skellat> Okay
<rww> so as I mentioned earlier, I was concerned (and I think nhaines was?) about the communication surrounding this policy
<nhaines> rww: that is an accurate representation of my concern.
<skellat> Bad situations make for bad policy.
<xuacu> I've found this issue already in a bad state
<rww> For example, as I mentioned earlier, I didn't see public discussion of it beforehand, which I think is something that could be improved in the future.
<skellat> May I tell some of the back story?
<rww> sure :)
<skellat> Okay
<skellat> First the Catalan team came up for re-verification
<skellat> Under one country, one LoCo we said they didn't fit as they're still part of Spain
<skellat> Yes, they're trying hard to have a separatist referendum but for now they're still part of Spain
<skellat> The Catalan team didn't like that so they took the matter up with Community Council
<skellat> After a long and not so happy meeting between both bodies, LoCo Council was tasked with trying to find a way to adapt what had existed prior to accommodate the Catalan situation
<nhaines> Why was it so important to disband the verified, fully-functional Catalan team?
<xuacu> nhaines: I second your question
<skellat> nhaines: We were trying to clean up what we had in terms of policies and exceptions (written, unwritten, and some partially forgotten) to bring it into a coherent whole
<skellat> This was also prior to the Scottish independence vote failing
<skellat> After multiple rounds of LoCo Council deadlocking on trying to adapt policy so that forgotten understandings, barely documented exceptions, and the like could be cleaned up...
<skellat> ...we voted via CIVS.
<skellat> By majority vote we adopted what we had.
<skellat> This stretched on for about 3 months.
<skellat> We finally submitted the policy to Community Council to see if they felt it would help ameliorate the situation that arose with respect to the Catalan team, they were okay with it, and we then resolved the Catalan matter.
<skellat> There were a couple different versions we voted on and this one was the one we felt would be flexible enough to accommodate the future.
<skellat> As to the US, the exceptions for the individual states stay because of the unique system of dual sovereignties in play especially considering every Governor has their own army (## State National Guard) as well as the federal forces.
<rww> I think discussing the US fully would probably not be productive, so unless someone objects we can probably set that aside :)
<rww> (US sovereignty is... a fun topic)
<nhaines> Not the consideration that a US LoCo with 50 team leads and almost no geographical continuity would be completely unproductive?
<skellat> rww: LoCo Council spent a week going round and round about it and there was a "red team" discussion of creating a single US LoCo undertaken.
<nhaines> Actually I like rww's better.
<tebanpb> I have a question then. What about countries without their own army? :s
<rww> So yeah. Communication. I understand (and now more fully understand) that it was a difficult situation, and that bringing it up for public discussion was in some ways problematic.
<skellat> tebanpb: :-) That was just one example of dual sovereignties in the US system.
<skellat> rww: Yeah, you could say that.
<skellat> Does it need work?  Probably.
<elfy> o/
<skellat> elfy: Hello comrade
<rww> However, as someone who part-manages a LoCo that occasionally threatens to try to be two LoCos, I would have appreciated *something* on loco-contacts@, even if it were just "we're pondering the one-LoCo-one-state policy, if you have input email the LoCo Council off-list"
<tebanpb> But sovereignty is a political concept which is defined differently in each country
<rww> I mean, it's water under the bridge now, but please consider that for future issues :)
<nhaines> tebanpb: this is why the guidelines allow for exceptions on an individual basis.
<tebanpb> As a matter of fact I don't get why we are getting so much into these politic issues :s
<rww> And I've said my piece, so back to the others for their comments I guess.
<costales> tebanpb, all it's politic
<skellat> rww: We're all fairly exhausted from the Utopic Unicorn cycle getting the issues of the Iberian Peninsula settled.
<costales> tebanpb, our society and live
<costales> ;)
<dangerouspiper> skellat you konw that in Spain is a system with dual sovereignties?
<tebanpb> I mean institutional politics
<tebanpb> dangerouspiper is right about that
<skellat> Okay, does anybody else have anything else to raise before the LoCo Council at this time?
<costales> dangerouspiper,  I tried to explain to the Council
<tebanpb> and we could end discussing about what sovereignty means, it's pointless
<skellat> Nothing being heard, this meeting is concluded.  Thank you all for your participation.
<costales> I think is not a political issue, it's a cultural/language issue
<skellat> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Oct 21 21:33:47 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-10-21-20.00.moin.txt
<costales> thanks a lot skellat for be our chairman :)
<skellat> Your welcome.
<skellat> s/Your welcome/You are welcome/
<costales> xD
<costales> sed rules!
<nhaines> xuacu, ivarela, felipexil: congratulations.  :)
<costales> bye bye!
<xuacu> Nigth everyone and thank you again :)
<felipexil>  skellat: I'm a bit late, but I think the policy should be clarified
<felipexil> just in case other teams are in our situation
<felipexil> nhaines: thanks!
<xuacu> bye!
<ivarela> nhaines, thanks to you
<felipexil> thanks xuacu, ivarela!
<nhaines> Your result is what I thought the policy should allow, and I'm happy it worked out that way.  I hope that this helps to relieve some of the concerns of the community.
<ivarela> felipexil, gracies home!
<nhaines> costales: can't get enough of us?  :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-10-24
<MosesEX> rww, you suck
<MosesEX> !ops
<ubottu> Help! Seveas, Hobbsee, LjL, ompaulafk, Keybuk, mdz, sabdfl, janimo, ogra, mdke, dholbach, or jono
<MosesEX> yay
<MosesEX> !ops
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-10-19
<tyhicks> hello!
 * sbeattie waves
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Oct 19 16:34:15 2015 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<tyhicks> Thanks to Martin Pitt (pitti) for providing precise-wily debdiffs for postgresql packages (LP: #1504132)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1504132 in postgresql-9.4 (Ubuntu Wily) "New upstream microreleases 9.1.19, 9.3.10, 9.4.5" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1504132
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<mdeslaur> zzzzzzzz
 * mdeslaur pokes jdstrand with pointy stick
<jdstrand> hey
<jdstrand> sorry
<tyhicks> that got his attention ;)
<jdstrand> so, right now I'm working on getting snappy-debug into the store. I'm almost done with that
<jdstrand> after that, will be looking at identifying tasks for the post-mortem meeting for the update last week
<jdstrand> I also have several embargoed issues
<jdstrand> s/the update/the click update/
<jdstrand> that's it from me
<mdeslaur> guess it's my turn
<mdeslaur> I'm back from vacation, so I'm in email ketchup mode today
<mdeslaur> and I'm on triage this week
<mdeslaur> and will be looking at the list of required updates, and will pick something to work on
<mdeslaur> that's about it, sbeattie?
<sbeattie> I'm in the happy place this week
<sbeattie> I have a miniupnpc update in the pipeline that I'll be finishing up.
<sbeattie> I
<sbeattie> bleah
<sbeattie> I'm currently refreshing my gcc-pie patches and adding bind-now to the defautls
<sbeattie> I need to go through the backlog of apparmor patches
<sbeattie> I may pick up another update as the list has grown large
<sbeattie> that's probably it for my week
<tyhicks> sbeattie: where do you want to be with the gcc-pie patches before we sprint with foundations?
<sbeattie> tyhicks: I want to have a patch with bind-now enabled as well to hand off.
<tyhicks> sbeattie: ok, lets sync up with doko to see what his thoughts are for what should be done going into that week
<tyhicks> I'm in the community role this week
<tyhicks> I'm currently doing a design/code review of Mir attestable timestamps
<tyhicks> after that, I'll start the mapplauncherd code review to see how the security team's feedback was incorporated in
<tyhicks> as part of that review, I signed up to create an AppArmor profile for confining the booster processes
<tyhicks> if I get through both of those things, I'll look at our backlog
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
 * jjohansen gives tyhicks a consoling pat on the back
<jjohansen> I am working on the apparmor stacking patches
<jjohansen> I should also get around to building some test kernels for the bug fixes that people can run if they want
<tyhicks> jjohansen: regarding stacking, are you still mainly focused on kernel code or have you gotten into parser/libapparmor/tests yet?
<jjohansen> tyhicks: kernel still
<tyhicks> ah, reviewing some of your AppArmor kernel fixes and possibly preparing kteam pull requests is something else that I want to get to this week
<jjohansen> I think that is it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: is that all for you this week? (hopefully you'll get a chance to spend quality time on stacking)
<tyhicks> nice!
<jjohansen> yep
<tyhicks> sarnold: you're up
<sarnold> i'm on bug triage this week
<sarnold> I've got a stack of patches from jjohansen that I'm reviewing
<sarnold> are there any MIRs that we can do last-minute to make someone happy?
<tyhicks> sarnold: I'll have a look and get back to you on that
<sarnold> thanks
 * sarnold adds one more thing to tyhicks's pile :)
<jjohansen> sarnold: would you like some more presents to add to your pile, I have a nice queue of another 20 or so you could start in on? :P
<tyhicks> nah :)
<sarnold> jjohansen: \o/ :)
<sarnold> chrisccoulson?
<chrisccoulson> This week, I need to publish Oxide (will probably do that tomorrow now).
<chrisccoulson> I also need to get the crash reporter back on in Firefox, which means updating my scripts to push our symbols to their new upload API (which I have access to since last week)
<chrisccoulson> Other than that, I'd like to land https://code.launchpad.net/~chrisccoulson/oxide/lp1504853/+merge/274525 because it fixes some issues with how certificate errors are handled in the browser
<chrisccoulson> But it depends on https://code.launchpad.net/~chrisccoulson/oxide/refactor-webview-rwhv-interation/+merge/274723, which is ongoing
<chrisccoulson> I think that's me done
<tyhicks> thanks!
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libjboss-cache2-java.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/gcc-4.9-powerpc-cross.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libplack-perl.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/puppet-module-puppetlabs-stdlib.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/mosh.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Oct 19 17:03:09 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-10-19-16.34.moin.txt
<jjohansen> thanks tyhicks
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks!
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-10-20
<dupingping_> Hi, everyone.
<dupingping> when you test me?
<genii> dupingping: When there are educational presentations going on, this channel is where they are presented, and the #ubuntu-classroom-chat channel is where people ask questions about the presentation. Currently there are no presentations happening.
<genii> Oh, sorry, thought we were in #ubuntu-classroom. Apologies
 * genii wanders off
<arosales> Hello, I think we will be kicking off the Ubuntu Server meeting here
<arosales> per https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting it looks like I am on point to chair
 * arosales gets commands set . .
<arosales> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Oct 20 16:01:06 2015 UTC.  The chair is arosales. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<arosales> Happy Wiley Release Week!
<arosales> :-)
<arosales> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<arosales> #info no actions from last week
<arosales> #topic Wily Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Wily Development
<arosales> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WilyWerewolf/ReleaseSchedule
<arosales> Oct 22, Thursday, is the big day; 15.10
<arosales> #info 15.10 release
<arosales> I suspect most folks are heads down on getting 15.10 out the door
<arosales> #subtopic Release Bugs
<arosales> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-w-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
 * arosales looking at high bugs
<arosales> 2 high bugs
<arosales> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1398999
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1398999 in OpenStack Compute (nova) "Block migrate with attached volumes copies volumes to themselves" [High,In progress]
<arosales> looks lto be fixed released in Wiley in libvirt
<arosales> but only triaged in Wily
<arosales> any nova folks taking a look at this one ^
<arosales> gnuoy`:  ^
<arosales> beisner: ^ seeing this in your testing
 * beisner looks at bug
<beisner> arosales, it's not a scenario that we exercise exactly
<arosales> ok so oustanding question for openstack to triage?
<arosales> thedac ^
<arosales> other high bug
<arosales> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/horizon/+bug/1506826
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1506826 in horizon (Ubuntu Wily) "Upgrade from kilo to liberty fails" [High,Fix committed]
<arosales> fix committed :-)
<beisner> woot
<arosales> those are the 2 highs we have
<arosales> moving onto updates
<arosales> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<rbasak> caribou can't make it today.
<arosales> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
<arosales> any updates from QA ?
<arosales> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
<smb> Nothing to report. Any questions?
<arosales> smb is quick :-)
 * smb is prepared... :-P
<arosales> thanks smb :-)
<arosales> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Upcoming Call For Papers
<arosales> no CFPs that I am aware of
<hallyn_> fosdem still ongoing?
<arosales> Scale is coming up . . .
<arosales> fosdem is, and the juju folks will be giving a session during config mgmt camp
<arosales> #link http://summit.juju.solutions/
<arosales> #link https://www.socallinuxexpo.org/scale/14x/cfp
<arosales> #link https://fosdem.org/2016/news/2015-09-24-call-for-participation/
<arosales> ones that I am aware of ^
<arosales> thanks hallyn_ for the reminder on FOSDEM
<arosales> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<arosales> ODS Tokyo next week
<arosales> #link https://www.openstack.org/summit/tokyo-2015/
<arosales> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<arosales> Any other topics?
<arosales> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<arosales> NEXT MEETING: Tuesday 2015-10-27 at 1600 UTC - #ubuntu-meeting
<arosales> #info NEXT MEETING: Tuesday 2015-10-27 at 1600 UTC - #ubuntu-meeting
<arosales> thanks!
<rbasak> Thanks arosales!
<arosales> until next time
<beisner> thx arosales
<arosales> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Oct 20 16:17:04 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-10-20-16.01.moin.txt
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Oct 20 17:00:01 2015 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Wily
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<arges> o/
<smb> o\
<ogasawara> o/
<kamal> o/
<sforshee> o/
<henrix> o/
<chiluk> o/
<rtg> o/
<bjf> o/
<ppisati> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://kernel.ubuntu.com/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Wily Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Wily Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We release Wily 15.10 in 2 days this Thurs Oct 22.  Any kernel patches submitted for Wily will now be queued for SRU and must adhere to SRU
<ogasawara> policy.
<ogasawara> -----
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WilyWerewolf/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara> Thurs Oct 22 - 15.10 Release (~2 days away)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's
<jsalisbury> The current CVE status can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://kernel.ubuntu.com/reports/kernel-cves.html
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Precise/Trusty/lts-utopic/Vivid (bjf)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Precise/Trusty/lts-utopic/Vivid (bjf)
<bjf> Status for the main kernels, until today:
<bjf>   *     Precise - Kernel Prep
<bjf>   *      Trusty - Kernel Prep
<bjf>   *  lts-Utopic - Kernel Prep
<bjf>   *      Vivid  - Kernel Prep
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/sru-report.html
<bjf>  
<bjf>  
<bjf> Schedule:
<bjf>  
<bjf> cycle: 18-Oct through 07-Nov
<bjf> ====================================================================
<bjf> 16-Oct   Last day for kernel commits for this cycle
<bjf> 18-Oct - 24-Oct   Kernel prep week.
<bjf> 25-Oct - 31-Oct   Bug verification & Regression testing.
<bjf> 01-Nov - 07-Nov   Regression testing & Release to -updates.
<bjf>  
<bjf> Note: Oct. 22 is release day
<bjf>  
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Oct 20 17:03:40 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-10-20-17.00.moin.txt
<kamal> thanks jsalisbury
<wxl> nhaines: aren't we? :)
<nhaines> I thought so.  :)
<wxl> nhaines: it just seems so quiet XD
<wxl> !lococouncil unite!
<wxl> !lococouncil
<ubottu> The LoCo Council is coolbhavi, PabloRubianes, nhaines, wxl, and lunapersa - they are here to help, just ask! :) You can send them an email at loco-council@lists.ubuntu.com
<PabloRubianes> hello
<wxl> hey PabloRubianes
<wxl> hahahahah!
<wxl> well i can vote
<wxl> the other two don't seem to be on
<nhaines> Three of five is a start.
<wxl> i just got a fridge notice that the time has changed?
<wxl> jose: what's the deal with the change to the meeting time?
<nhaines> I thought that started after this meeting.
<wxl> yeah i don't know, i'm just confused.
<wxl> PabloRubianes: what's the verification string thing? who's "he?"
<nhaines> wxl: the verification string is the code you're sent when you subscribe to a mailing list.  You have to confirm that you own the email address.
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-10-21
<Anho> ayyyy
<dupingping> Hello, all
<marcoceppi> o/ We'll be getting started in just a min
<FrozenZia> Hello hello.
<dupingping> When does the meeting start?
<popey> hello
<marcoceppi> #startmeeting 1200 UTC Ubuntu Membership Board
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Oct 21 12:04:24 2015 UTC.  The chair is marcoceppi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 1200 UTC Ubuntu Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<Kilos> hi dupingping FrozenZia
<dupingping> hi, Kilos
<dupingping> I am here.
<marcoceppi> Hello and welcome to the Ubuntu Membership Review Board for the 1200 UTC meeting for October 21, 2015.
<marcoceppi> The wiki page for the Review Board is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards
<marcoceppi> We will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting. If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off.
<marcoceppi> The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO).
<marcoceppi> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
<marcoceppi> During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
<marcoceppi> When the board is ready to vote, they will publicly vote in the channel with either +1, 0, or -1 (for membership, abstain, and against membership, respectively). If the sum of those numbers amounts to at least +1, then the applicant is now an official Ubuntu member! (feel free congratulate them!)
<marcoceppi> #votesrequired 4
<meetingology> votes now need 4 to be passed
<marcoceppi> #voters popey marcoceppi Kilos IdleOne hggdh belkinsa
<meetingology> Warning: Nick not in channel: IdleOne
<meetingology> Warning: Nick not in channel: belkinsa
<meetingology> Current voters: IdleOne Kilos belkinsa hggdh marcoceppi popey
<marcoceppi> Now, without any further ado, lets get started with the first applicant...
<marcoceppi> #subtopic FrozenZia
<popey> I'm glad you know how to operate this bot marcoceppi :)
<FrozenZia> Right, so Paul Brown, native of New Mexico originally, moved to Finland after a year as an exchange student.
<Kilos> yeah me too
<marcoceppi> well, except for subtopic didn't seem to  work :\
<marcoceppi> Welcome FrozenZia!
<FrozenZia> Zia is an indian symbol from the NM state flag, and being here in Finland nowadays, well, that's where FrozenZia came from.
<FrozenZia> Here's the Wiki link: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PaulVinsonBrown
<FrozenZia> I've basically been spending the last 4ish years trying to refurbish old computers, install Ubuntu on them, and sell them / donate them forward.
<FrozenZia> That's the very shortest version of the story, really.
<FrozenZia> Had an email from Walter Lapchynski pointing out that my contributions to the actual Ubuntu *project* in terms of bug reports, translating, code, etc...
<FrozenZia> has actually been very close to zero, but that for all that's lacking there I have done plenty of ADVOCACY.
<dupingping> Hi, everybody.
<marcoceppi> FrozenZia: I see you've done translation for Code Club World, which is awesome! Have you looked at doing translations for the Ubuntu projects?
<FrozenZia> I'm very much interested in doing more, but time time time...
<FrozenZia> marcoceppi: yes and no.
<FrozenZia> The few times I've looked at it, I've maybe gotten to the "first steps" page, and then got distracted with some other project, etc...
<FrozenZia> Don't really know at this point how really *easy* or *diffictult* it is to get started translating, but suggested that at OggCamp in Liverpool at the end of the month I'd be willing to try and organize a sort of "translating for newbies" workshop or something.
<FrozenZia> Problem being it'd be a blind leading the blind sort of situation at this point.
<marcoceppi> FrozenZia: I've found often teaching is the best way to learn something ;)
<marcoceppi> FrozenZia: have you been in contact with the Finland loco at all?
<FrozenZia> marcoceppi: so true. so very true.
<popey> I would prefer to see the testimonials on the page if possible, rather than emails to us, but that's just a personal preference.
<FrozenZia> marcoceppi: well, other than a few posts in the Finnish forums, not really -- have been disheartened there didn't seem to be much *local* activity (I'm *not* in Helsinki), and the
<FrozenZia> Tampere crowd has been meeting Wednesday nites which haven't worked for my schedule.
<Kilos> FrozenZia what was the problem of getting your testimonials that went to our mailing list on your wiki page
<FrozenZia> popey: Yeah, I just had people to ask for testimonials that would have found registering to be able to update the wiki "beyond them".
<Kilos> ah
<popey> Yeah, the wiki is obtuse for beginners
<FrozenZia> Even Vagrant, who is very capable, commented that he didn't know if he'd ever edited the Ubuntu Wiki and so I sent him the e-mail-address option.
<popey> ok.
<popey> My main concern is the lack of direct measurable contribution to Ubuntu.
<FrozenZia> Did definitely *not* mean to create extra e-mail for everyone.
<popey> It's fine, we don't get much email on that list :D
<FrozenZia> popey: understandable about the measurable contribution.
<popey> Typically we go through the wiki page and look at the contributions.
<popey> Like translations in launchpad, forum posts, blog entries and so on.
<FrozenZia> I could dig up some numbers of computers that are now "out in the wild" with Ubuntu installed due to my efforts, but it'd just be me "saying" that's how many are out there.
<popey> Right, you understand our problem then :)
<marcoceppi> FrozenZia: do you have any plans outside of a potential oggcamp talk and your current efforts with computers for the next 6 months in the Ubuntu universe?
<FrozenZia> ...and as Walter said, due to this, you would be largely looking at testimonials, which I suspect I haven't actually managed to get very many of.
<FrozenZia> marcoceppi: Definitely very interested in participating in translations.
<marcoceppi> Any other questions for FrozenZia, FrozenZia any comments before going to a vote?
<FrozenZia> A comment I sent to Walter earlier, and so I *think* you have all seen...
<hggdh> FrozenZia: I would like to hear more about your plans
<FrozenZia> hggdh: First the comment -- that I really am spending *so* much of my time in getting this business off the ground, and providing tech support for the machines we already have sold, that there's not a lot of time to do much else.
<FrozenZia> hggdh: Hmmm -- not sure what to tell you --
<FrozenZia> We've just moved our company out of a cellar and into a "real" premesis, so we've got LOTS more visibility,
<hggdh> FrozenZia: that's OK. The thing that worries me is a mix of shown sustainable work on Ubuntu
<hggdh> FrozenZia: We measure contributions to Ubuntu here...
<FrozenZia> what with the current refugee stuff going on we're contacting refugee -facilities and trying to provide them with machines for refugees to use while there,...
<hggdh> FrozenZia: I am personally inclined to suggest you wait a bit more while you collect data on your Ubuntu contributions
<FrozenZia> At this point, it's the advocacy.
<Kilos> FrozenZia imo you have the potential to be a great ubuntu member, you just need some more to add in contributions to ubuntu itself
<Kilos> like translations are needed all the time
<hggdh> FrozenZia: which we need to be able to check; if we cannot check, we cannot validate it to the point we accept your work in Ubuntu as *both* sustained and significant
<FrozenZia> I have a few bug reports, comments on some, some forum input, but they're really nothing compared to the other work I've done.
<FrozenZia> hggdh: Kilos: yep, disappointing, but understandable.
<marcoceppi> #vote FrozenZia
<meetingology> Please vote on: FrozenZia
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<popey> -1
<meetingology> -1 received from popey
<Kilos> 0
<meetingology> 0 received from Kilos
<hggdh> +0 I cannot really validate the two keywords for membership: sustained and significant
<meetingology> +0 I cannot really validate the two keywords for membership: sustained and significant received from hggdh
<marcoceppi> -1 I think you've got a great start. Keep up the advocacy and help share your knowledge/translations skill with the project and reapply again in the comming months!
<meetingology> -1 I think you've got a great start. Keep up the advocacy and help share your knowledge/translations skill with the project and reapply again in the comming months! received from marcoceppi
<Kilos> FrozenZia do a bit more thats visible to us please and try again
<marcoceppi> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: FrozenZia
<meetingology> Votes for:0 Votes against:2 Abstentions:2
<meetingology> Motion denied
<Kilos> FrozenZia dont give up
<FrozenZia> When trying again "later", what sort of time-frame would you suggest?
<hggdh> FrozenZia: you *ARE* on the right track. But we need to confirm you work. Please do come back in a few months
<marcoceppi> Thank you FrozenZia for taking time to apply, we appreciate all you've done so far but feel a little more sustained contributions would be good to show
<popey> we usually recommend coming back in ~3 months or more
<FrozenZia> See you all in January, then. =o)
<Kilos> thanks so far fo
<marcoceppi> FrozenZia: we look forward to it!
<Kilos> yes we do
<marcoceppi> Okay, without further ado!
<Kilos> hit them translations
<marcoceppi> #subtopic dupingping
 * FrozenZia thanks all for their time.
<popey> Thanks FrozenZia
<Kilos> yw
<marcoceppi> dupingping: welcome, please take a few lines to introduce yourself
<hggdh> FrozenZia: I expect you back here :-)
<dupingping> Hi, all. i'm here.
<dupingping> yes, I'm from china.
<dupingping> I have no jobs now in any company.
<marcoceppi> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DuPingping
<dupingping> And i am just contributing for Ubuntu.
<dupingping> I worked on Ubuntu precise and trusty.
<dupingping> I created two Ubuntu softwares.
<dupingping> Ubuntu Dock and Sticky Notes.
<dupingping> They are all only for Ubuntu.
<dupingping> And I worked on gtk3 and some others.
<dupingping> I know about compiz how to work, So i made some patches for metacity, that runs as compiz
<dupingping> I have my own site, http://korsoftware.com
<dupingping> I have a critical bug fix patch for precise.
<dupingping> yes, it's my Ubuntu wiki written by me.
<dupingping> I worked on askubuntu, too.
<dupingping> So i made good answers and questions many peoples like them.
<dupingping> I wish Ubuntu become a first Desktop OS in the world. I think it's possible completely.
<dupingping> I wrote about it on the my own site.
<popey> Nice to see the AskUbuntu answers!
<dupingping> thank you, popey
<dupingping> And i also worked on askubuntu as a reviewer for first question and answers.
<dupingping> So i got many budgets includes gold budget.
<marcoceppi> dupingping: Nice job on getting the Steward badge for review
<popey> Yeah, collecting badges on AskUbuntu is addictive :)
<dupingping> I can show you metacity patch to make metacity runs as compiz with wave effect and scale effect when window is resized.
<dupingping> marcoceppi, thank you.
<marcoceppi> dupingping: I see you've created apps for Ubuntu desktop, have you considered doing the same for the Ubuntu Phone?
<dupingping> Not yet on Ubuntu phone. but i plan to make some apps on Ubuntu Phone.
<dupingping> I'm really professor for C and gtk3 programming.
<popey> Is Ubuntu Dock based on some other software, or did you write it all yourself?
<dupingping> of course, by myself. from scratch.
<dupingping> I can show you the source fully to you.
<dupingping> If i created it based on another softwares, i'll not created anyone.
<dupingping> I always think not same as another persons.
<dupingping> I'll explain you why i created them on Ubuntu?
<popey> No, I don't need to see the source, I believe you :)
<dupingping> I want to make Ubuntu to the most beautiful and most useful OS in the world.
<dupingping> :) thank you.
<marcoceppi> #vote dupingping
<meetingology> Please vote on: dupingping
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<Kilos> dupingping ty for all your hard work so far
<Kilos> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Kilos
<popey> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from popey
<popey> Would love to see some translations - especially on the phone apps :D
<dupingping> Thank you Kilos and popey.
<hggdh> +1 please also try to join a Local community if at all possible
<meetingology> +1 please also try to join a Local community if at all possible received from hggdh
<marcoceppi> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from marcoceppi
<dupingping> Thank you for all.
<marcoceppi> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: dupingping
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<hggdh> dupingping: welcome in!
<marcoceppi> Keep up the great work!
<dupingping> Thank you very much.
<dupingping> I like Ubuntu and work on Ubuntu.
<Kilos> congratulations dupingping and welcome to the members
<FrozenZia> Congrats dupingping!
<dupingping> that's greatest news in my life.
<hggdh> dupingping: we are happy with you :-)
<popey> \o/
<Kilos> we are happy to have you with us
<dupingping> Now i'm a Ubuntu Member?
<hggdh> dupingping: yes you are
<popey> once someone adds you to the group on launchpad, yes
<dupingping> Now what do i do since now?
<popey> Keep doing awesome things!
<dupingping> that's great.
<Kilos> yes dont stop
<dupingping> yes i'll continue
<marcoceppi> No one else is on the list and we're nearing the top of the hour, thank you FrozenZia and dupingping for applying and to popey Kilos and hggdh for being present
<marcoceppi> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Oct 21 12:55:14 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-10-21-12.04.moin.txt
<Kilos> join a loco if you can and keep active
<dupingping> just a question to you. possible?
<FrozenZia> Hey 1 question.
<Kilos> ty marcoceppi for chairing for us
<Kilos> yes dupingping
<marcoceppi> Sorry, didn't mean to close so soon. dupingping FrozenZia we're still here, go for it
<dupingping> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership shows me certification card image.
<dupingping> How can i get certification card?
<marcoceppi> dupingping: fill out this form: https://forms.canonical.com/certificate/
<FrozenZia> I noticed in a map of ubuntu members that there's someone close to me -- any way to find out who that is? Or send them *my* contact info and a request to get in touch?
<dupingping> yes, i'll do it.
<marcoceppi> FrozenZia: that's a good question. I don't think there is a way - popey?
<Kilos> is there a loco in finland?
<popey> no
<popey> You should contact the loco
<FrozenZia> 'Course now I started thinking of alternatives -- ad in the local paper, "Do you Ubuntu?"
<FrozenZia> popey: alright, will do that.
<Kilos> FrozenZia you can also look for lugs there
<Kilos> all lugs have ubuntu users in them
<FrozenZia> Thanks again, and I guess see at least popey in OggCamp!
<dupingping> Please help me, just one question.
<dupingping> I went to https://forms.canonical.com/certificate/
<dupingping> And it request me enter verification code.
<dupingping> what is it?
<popey> uh, really?
<dupingping> yes, popey.
<popey> That's odd.
<dupingping> How can i recover the verification code?
<popey> Only Canonical employees should have to do that.
<popey> if you go to https://login.ubuntu.com/device-list do you see any devices listed?
<popey> like a 2-factor auth device
<Kilos> i think she must first have membership activated guys?
<popey> there is that too :)
<popey> dupingping is in ~ubuntumembers
<Kilos> elacheche normally does it quick
<popey> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntumembers
<Kilos> cool
<dupingping> yes, let me try.
<popey> try going to the form again dupingping
<dupingping> to modify the device, it request me enter the verification code.
<popey> ok, try the form again?
<popey> https://forms.canonical.com/certificate/
<dupingping> let me try again.
<dupingping> it shows me "Type your verification code" again,
<dupingping> perhaps, i forgot my verification code.
<popey> is it asking for a code that you get sent via email?
<popey> is there an option to re-send it?
<dupingping> yes, let me try again.
<dupingping> where i can ask my code? so i can get the code via my email?
<popey> dupingping: does it look like this? http://imgur.com/absPmXS
<dupingping> right
<popey> the same?
<dupingping> yes
<popey> okay
<dupingping> I need have any device?
<popey> Have you ever worked for Canonical?
<dupingping> yes. i am contributing for ubunut.
<Kilos> dupingping dont forget you are always welcome on the africa channel
<Kilos> cheers everyone
<dupingping> Kilos, yes, right.
<dupingping> popey, at the page, what code i need to enter?
<popey> dupingping: you should not be getting that page
<popey> dupingping: I am talking to our technical people, it might take some time to fix.
<popey> dupingping: can you drop me an email - alan.pope@canonical.com and I will follow up a little later.
<dupingping> yes, i'll do it, popey.
<popey> thanks
<popey> I'll follow up with our technical people
<dupingping> see you later. thank you today.
<popey> o/
<dupingping> lol
<dupingping> Hi, popey.
<popey> dupingping: hey
<dupingping> oh, my account was suspended.
<dupingping> :(
<dupingping> I tried to enter my verification code many and many times.
<popey> oh dear.
<dupingping> and it shows me your account is suspended.
<popey> can you join #canonical-sysadmin ?
<dupingping> let me try.
<dupingping> good, logged in.
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-10-25
<smoser> o/
<powersj> o/
<cpaelzer> o/
<jgrimm> o/
<powersj> ok let's get started and see who else drops in
<powersj> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Oct 25 16:03:03 2016 UTC.  The chair is powersj. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<caribou> o/
<powersj> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<powersj> (jamespage) checkin with old iscsitarget users on relevancy with new kernels
<powersj> jgrimm: any update here?
<jgrimm> openstack summit this week
<powersj> ah yes
<powersj> leave on for one more week?
<jgrimm> sure. i don't have any context on that item, but we can do over email if needed
<powersj> (cpaelzer) investigating severity of issues covered by qemu 2.5. stable releases and ask other Teams on
<cpaelzer> yo
<cpaelzer> all the Crits in the delta from us to the latest stable were already covered by the security Team
<cpaelzer> I got some feedback
<cpaelzer> all that I got referred to cases where doing it pro-actively broke stuff
<cpaelzer> so I guess the consensus is - unless we have any reason to do so we keep it as is
<cpaelzer> there are about two in there which could be considered "high" but it depends so much on the particular setup that it is hard to rate "comunity wide"
<cpaelzer> so TL;DR - not bringing in 2.5.1.1 proactively
<cpaelzer> powersj: that item done, ready for the next if there are now further questions
<powersj> #done cpaelzer investigating severity of issues covered by qemu 2.5. stable releases and ask other Teams on their input
<powersj> cpaelzer will try to ask Stephen Hemminger for more data on the netdev presentation
<cpaelzer> yeah that is the next one
<cpaelzer> I met him, and not only asked but discussed in detail
<cpaelzer> while this was an entertaining discussion there isn't much he could share that would help us to identify new issues or address them
<cpaelzer> but
<cpaelzer> I found good contact in Intel for openvswitch dpdk and at least for that will work on analyzing some East/West Traffic issues that our Testing in regard to ovs-DPDK inveiled in the last dev cycle
<cpaelzer> any questions on that?
<cpaelzer> powersj: you have the timout duty to call it none, mark it done and go on
<powersj> #done cpaelzer will try to ask Stephen Hemminger for more data on the netdev presentation
<powersj> powersj to update agenda to remove yakkety add in zesty
<powersj> #done powersj to update agenda to remove yakkety add in zesty
<powersj> that's all the action items, moving on
<powersj> #topic Zesty Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Zesty Development
<powersj> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZestyZapus/ReleaseSchedule
<cpaelzer> the page doesn't exist yet
<jgrimm> heh
<cpaelzer> But I'm sure your link will be correct one day
<powersj> Yeah I just changed yakkety -> zesty
<cpaelzer> one thing on zesty dev
<cpaelzer> I just discussed with rbasak on that earlier today
<cpaelzer> there is no debootstrap for zesty yet
<cpaelzer> that means you can hardly (only with workarounds) do sbuild, autopkgtest and such
<cpaelzer> the TL;DR of our discussion was that zesty atm should be considered only "somewhat open" for development
<cpaelzer> until that shows up in backports for your release - likely Xenial/Yakkety
<cpaelzer> rbasak: andyinth to add?
<cpaelzer> "anything"
<rbasak> No, that covers it.
<rbasak> It'll probably be in updates rather than backports.
<cpaelzer> true
<cpaelzer> ok, just thought worth to mention it here for all
<jgrimm> thanks, i hadn't known that. :(
<cpaelzer> jgrimm: you can just fire and forget upload - but if you like testing before :-)
<powersj> is it on us or foundations or other to get that updated?
 * rharper joins late
<cpaelzer> on foundation I think, the question is if we could get a hook somewhere to be notified once it is ready to go - and maybe an ETA
<rbasak> AFAICT, it usually happens when some developer gets fed up and JFDI
<rbasak> I don't think anyone would object if one of us did the update.
<rbasak> (though do coordinate in #ubuntu-devel to avoid duplicate effort, etc)
<jgrimm> would be good to know if its on someone's plate already/eta
<cpaelzer> rbasak: you likely have the best connections - would you reach out to them for the question of jgrimm?
<rbasak> ack
<rbasak> Is it just debootstrap?
 * powersj wonders how hard a symlink + change log entry could be ;)
<rbasak> powersj: it's not hard in the slightest - just needs someone to do it :)
<cpaelzer> powersj: quite often the devil is in the detail
<powersj> if I hear no movement I may just try
<cpaelzer> powersj: wait until rbasak pings us after inquiring maybe?
<powersj> yeah
<cpaelzer> rbasak: you could drop whatever you find out to server-dev list or such - ok ?
<rbasak> ack
<powersj> alright, any other topics for zesty dev?
<powersj> #subtopic Release Bugs
<powersj> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-y-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<jgrimm> nacc has imported a bunch of server packages
<jgrimm> he's out today
<powersj> ah yes!
<powersj> I'll capture in notes
<jgrimm> basically pre-imported list of server packages that are out of date wrt upstream version
<cpaelzer> I'm on the dovecot one and about 5 others, but while a lot of work non is like exploding the system for anybody
<powersj> anything else?
<jgrimm> #link https://code.launchpad.net/~usd-import-team/+git
<powersj> thx!
<jgrimm> that's all i had
<cpaelzer> did my first re-merge
<cpaelzer> using the toolchain
<cpaelzer> so far I could fix all I needed together with nacc
<jgrimm> nish still owes an email out to ml
 * smoser started a mega-import to see failures
<cpaelzer> smoser: did that mean many imports or a packet with weird and huge history?
<smoser> using https://gist.github.com/smoser/4c5480b3c98c37a4eff0715e51f2c27b
<jgrimm> always gotta break things
<smoser> just started top to bottom alpha on main
<jgrimm> :)
<cpaelzer> hehe
<smoser> lots of network errors :-(
<smoser> and then https://bugs.launchpad.net/usd-importer/+bug/1636529
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1636529 in usd-importer "UnicodeDecodeError on package gmp and others" [Medium,Confirmed]
<cpaelzer> you did that DDOS last week with all the git traffic :-P
<powersj> anything else?
<jgrimm> that's all i have
<powersj> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (caribou)
<powersj> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-x-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<caribou> on a personal note, waiting for upstream ACK of a patch so makedumpfile works on 4.8 kernels again
<smoser> cpaelzer, i wasnt pushing anything . just locally.
<caribou> and now adding a new segment to our weekly broadcast : Current SRU being worked on
<caribou> LP: #1626258 [SRU] AttributeError: 'Requirement' object has no attribute 'project_name'
<caribou>  - Uploaded to Z; X & Y to follow
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1626258 in python-pip (Ubuntu Zesty) "[SRU] AttributeError: 'Requirement' object has no attribute 'project_name'" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1626258
<caribou> LP: #1621835 multipathd reconfigure does not update /etc/multipath/wwids file on trusty
<caribou>  - Waiting on verification
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1621835 in multipath-tools (Ubuntu Trusty) "multipathd reconfigure does not update /etc/multipath/wwids file on trusty" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1621835
<caribou> btw, do you want them all in sequence or wait if discussion is needed ?
<caribou> LP: #1587261 [SRU] Swift bucket X-Timestamp not set by Rados Gateway
<caribou>  - Reviewing patch, preparing upload to Z
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1587261 in ceph (Ubuntu Zesty) "[SRU] Swift bucket X-Timestamp not set by Rados Gateway" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1587261
<caribou> well, this one is more about openstack though
<caribou> LP: #1584485 Upgrading samba to latest security fixes together with winbind in nsswitch.conf can harm entire OS
<caribou>  - Preparing upload to Z, X & Y to follow
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1584485 in samba (Ubuntu Yakkety) "Upgrading samba to latest security fixes together with winbind in nsswitch.conf can harm entire OS" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1584485
<jgrimm> caribou, i appreciate this. good to know about
<caribou> so these are all our current SRUs
<caribou> anything that the server team want to bring attention on ? (SRU wise I mean)
<caribou> (done)
<cpaelzer> sooner or later that will be an SRU bug 1633220
<ubottu> bug 1633220 in dovecot (Ubuntu Yakkety) "Dovecot panics when sieve filter outputs much data" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1633220
 * powersj will be filing SRU for debootstrap
<caribou> cpaelzer:we'll be keeping an eye on the release bug report
<powersj> anything else for caribou?
<jgrimm> caribou, i have an SRU for multipath-tools that you  may be interested in
<jgrimm> caribou, (i also need a sponsor)  given you have experience in that package
<caribou> jgrimm: got a fix for it yet ?
<jgrimm> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/multipath-tools/+bug/1611360
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1611360 in multipath-tools (Ubuntu Yakkety) "Xenial 32-bit: multipath exits with SIGSEGV" [High,In progress]
<caribou> (multipath-tools changelog got my name all over the place) :)
<jgrimm> caribou, already got it into zesty, just need a sponsor for xenial before it can move to sru team assist
<caribou> jgrimm: I'll add it to our list to sponsor if you want
<jgrimm> much appreciated if you have the time
<jgrimm> caribou, cool!
<caribou> jgrimm: ok, will do
<powersj> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
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<powersj> cloud-init integration testing is up on Jenkins with initial test lots of thanks to magicalChicken and his hard work. Plan is to focus on writing additional tests this week.
<powersj> Some other work on Jenkins slaves, capturing work done in Yakkety cycle and Zesty task planning.
<powersj> #link https://jenkins.ubuntu.com/server/
<powersj> anything for me?
<cpaelzer> powersj: don't forget me :-P
<powersj> cpaelzer: haven't ;)
<cpaelzer> powersj: no it's fine - finalize cloud-init and let me know once we make a nother turn on qemu then
<powersj> I don't like seeing all that red, so I'm still looking
<powersj> moving on
<powersj> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
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<smb> No smudged dairy animals this week. Noting else from us (kernel-team). Besides, next week we are at Linux Plumbers.
<powersj> thx smb! anything else for kernel folks?
<powersj> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
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<powersj> #link https://lwn.net/Calendar/Monthly/cfp/
<jgrimm> fosdem end of month, only thing i'm seeing
<powersj> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<jgrimm> OpenStack Summit, Linux Plumbers already mentioned, various folks attending both
<powersj> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<rbasak> Nobody is working on debootstrap
<rbasak> So powersj is taking it.
<rbasak> Thanks powersj!
<jgrimm> rbasak, you'll sponsor?
 * powersj may learn to keep his mouth shut ;)
<rbasak> Sure
<jgrimm> rbasak, cool, tx
<powersj> anything else?
<jgrimm> smoser, cloud-init updates?
<smoser> not a lot. i made a couple merges
<smoser> still have some to do, and really wanting to try magicalChicken's integration test.
<powersj> smoser: I proposed one to add coverage to unit tests
<smoser> yeah, saw that. will look again.
<powersj> ok thx
<powersj> final comments?
<jgrimm> smoser, i'm interested in snap-create-user support (rharper)..
<smoser> it is in trunk now.
<smoser> rharper and i working on getting an 'all-snap' image going.
<rharper> sometime today if cloud-init daily ppa kicks off; I'll have a new core snap recipe building against cloud-init daily ppa
<jgrimm> smoser, and https://bugs.launchpad.net/cloud-init/+bug/1611074
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1611074 in cloud-init "Reformatting of ephemeral drive fails on resize of Azure VM" [High,Fix committed]
<smoser> believed fixed in trunk
<jgrimm> yeah, needs fixed in xenial tho
<smoser> rharper, https://code.launchpad.net/~cloud-init-dev/+archive/ubuntu/daily is seemingly good to go
<rharper> cool,
<rharper> I'll create the recipe for core snap to build against that daily
<smoser> jgrimm, well, yes. i will look to update zesty today.
<jgrimm> smoser, cool. tx
<rharper> we've an almost fully working image for OpenStack;  currently chasing down why we don't mount the boot partition properly; this prevents snapd from confirming that we booted into grub (or uboot); which blocked installing new snaps;  a workaround is to bind mount it from where it got mounted
<rharper> hoping to get an image booted in EC2 sometime today and update the status in the document
<jgrimm> rharper, smoser \o/
<powersj> last call...
<jgrimm> that's all for me
<powersj> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<powersj> Same time, same place with your host: beisner
<powersj> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Oct 25 16:48:11 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-10-25-16.03.moin.txt
<powersj> o/
<jgrimm> thanks powersj
<caribou> thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-10-27
 * slangasek waves
<robru> o/
<cyphermox> hey
<pitti> bongiorno
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Oct 27 15:00:48 2016 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<pitti> lightning lotto time!
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox pitti tdaitx xnox chiluk mwhudson)
<slangasek> slangasek infinity tdaitx bdmurray xnox robru sil2100 caribou doko barry chiluk pitti cyphermox mwhudson
<cyphermox> d'oh
<slangasek> still writing, one sec ;)
<pitti> haha
<cyphermox> I'm decidedly unlucky.
<pitti> let's start from the end if slangasek still needs time :)
<slangasek>  * proposed-migration transition shepherding (openmpi, and some other thing before that, I don't remember)
<slangasek>  * merges
<slangasek>  * kernel security updates and reboots
<slangasek>  * tracking of critical issues for Snappy GA
<slangasek>  * prep for Cloud sprint next week
<slangasek>  * travel logistics for CDO Core sprint in December
<slangasek>  * next
<slangasek>   * swapping tomorrow
<slangasek>   * Romania next week
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> infinity not in channel, so
<slangasek> tdaitx:
<slangasek> not so fast!
<tdaitx> = OpenJDK Updates
<tdaitx> * Provided 8u111 packages for Yakkety and Xenial to the security team
<tdaitx> * Security team reported an issue with jtreg test flags (-othervm and -agentvm being used together); fixed locally but I missed to include them on the upload
<tdaitx> * Build new 8u111 packages, waiting for the build to succeed before providing new packages to the security team
<tdaitx> * Testing OpenJDK 7 packages
<tdaitx> (done)
<barry> romania!
<bdmurray> This covers a bit of time
<sil2100> ugh, got disconnected
<slangasek> barry: but not actually Transylvania
<bdmurray> updated error tracker for release of Y and dev of Z
<bdmurray> commited fixes (daisy, errors) for LP: #1322325
<bdmurray> created apport test crashes for zesty
<bdmurray> Attended Devices Sprint in The Hague
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1322325 in Errors "Create bug link is failing for python tracebacks" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1322325
<tdaitx> wow, romenia
<bdmurray> reported, fixed ubuntu-release-upgrader bug (LP: #1632047)
<bdmurray> investigated, fixed casper bug LP: #1619188
<bdmurray> xenial SRU of update-notifier bug LP: #1621629
<bdmurray> SRU verification of update-manager SRU for T, X (LP: #1574193)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1632047 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Yakkety) "DistUpgradeViewNonInteractive except hook hides the traceback" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1632047
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1619188 in casper (Ubuntu Xenial) "Unattended upgrades can break persistent live media" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1619188
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1621629 in update-notifier (Ubuntu Xenial) "package-data-downloader fails to process download requests" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1621629
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1574193 in update-manager (Ubuntu Yakkety) "ubuntu-support-status lists end-of-support packages (after EOL) as supported" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1574193
<barry> slangasek: too bad.  would have been perfect for halloween
<bdmurray> reported update-manager bug LP: #1633569
<bdmurray> uploaded Z, Y fixes for LP: #1633903, LP:#1632665, LP: #1635155
<bdmurray> updated meta release files / server for yakkety release
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1633569 in update-manager (Ubuntu Trusty) "ubuntu-support-status on 14.04 says -lts-xenial stack is unsupported" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1633569
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1633903 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Yakkety) "linux-image-4.8.0 not installed upon upgrade to yakkety if linux-generic not installed" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1633903
<slangasek> barry: this may have been someone's idea in picking the location
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1635155 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Xenial) "ubuntu-release-upgrader crashed with AttributeError: 'ReleaseNotesViewerWebkit' object has no attribute '_on_navigation_policy_decision_requested'" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1635155
<bdmurray> review / fixing of a bugpattern merge proposal
<bdmurray> SRU training of rbasak
<bdmurray> â done
<sil2100> Could someone tell me when it's my time? :)
<robru> sil2100: you're after me
<xnox> may I? =)
<xnox> * device sprint last week + report this week
<xnox> * Rebased zua patches on top of recent SRUs
<xnox> * Moving zua from gh to lp, for better access
<xnox> * Facilitating zua qa testing
<xnox> * syncing/uploading things for zesty
<xnox> * zesty todo: more merges, boost1.62 transition
<xnox> ..
<robru> lp:bileto
<robru> * new "ppa" ticket field which replaces "siloname" but without "ubuntu/" prefix
<robru> * rename "request_id" field to "id"
<robru> * rename "job_log" field to "log_url" for consistency with Comment.log_url
<robru> * rename Request class to "Ticket", avoiding confusion with flask/http requests.
<robru> * lots of minor code cleanups/maintenance
<robru> * drop last vestiges of long-forgotten sync_request code
<robru> * some qakit/ust iterations
<robru> lp:qakit
<robru> * updates to reflect aforementioned ticket field changes
<robru> lp:queuebot
<robru> * updates to reflect aforementioned ticket field changes
<sil2100> Oh, my turn
<sil2100> - Recovering from sprint last week
<sil2100> - Sick day on Wednesday
<sil2100> - Landing team work, silo coordination, preparing landing e-mails
<sil2100> - Some more work on various specs for Ubuntu Personal, discussions discussions
<sil2100> - Reviewing and pushing a dbus workaround to zesty for the systemd-logind ssh issue
<sil2100> - Checking dbus autopkgtest failures and migration issues
<sil2100> - Prepping ahven and dbusada rebuilds to get things moving
<sil2100> - Changes to the landing-team-tools as per Bileto API changes
<sil2100> - Started looking into ubuntu-image
<sil2100> - Note: need one more reserve trainguard for the EU timezone
<sil2100> - Off on Monday (partially) and Tuesday
<slangasek> xnox: "zesty zua"
<sil2100> (done)
<doko> - GCC update (6 & snapshot)
<doko> - met with Oracle to discuss some OpenJDK issues
<doko> - first preparations for GCC 7
<doko> (done)
<xnox> slangasek, yes need to upload zesty zua too. However, at the moment the new ppa does not generate s390x build records for uploads =(
<chiluk>  barry ??
<barry> ubuntu-image: 0.9 released & sru'd; 0.10 released w/sru on zenial blocked on LP: #1637181; 0.9+real1 (snap) file system corruption investigation (nmp :); LP: #1631156 investigation leading to upstream flake8 engagement (GL#239); LP: #1633232
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1637181 in Ubuntu Image "100% coverage for Xenial" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1637181
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1631156 in Ubuntu Image "flake8.extension entry point has global ramifications" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1631156
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1633232 in Ubuntu Image "do not create nocloud-net seed without --cloud-init parameter" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1633232
<barry> various beagleboardblack boot tests
<barry> various snapcrafting
<barry> debuntu: gtimelog 0.10.3-1; zope.interface 4.3.2-1; python-webob 1.6.2-1; distlib 0.2.4-1; pyflakes 1.3.0-1; zope.testing 4.6.0-1
<barry> --done--
<chiluk> No public work from me this week.
<chiluk> (done)
<pitti> autopkgtest:
<pitti>  - Add another arm64 lxd slave to get 4 more workers; now on par/slightly better than ppc64el
<tdaitx> doko, if you can, let me know more about the openjdk discussion with oracle
<pitti>  - Improve statistics, particularly more realistic/useful pass rates
<pitti>  - Fix autopkgtest-build-lxd proxy detection for current lxd
<pitti>  - Review/land Simon's patches to support r/o testbeds with QEMU runner
<pitti>  - britney: Rework autopkgtest integration to be a Policy; now much less intrusive, cleaner, and easier to maintain/forward-port (this was also blocking robru's PPA landing support)
<pitti> convergence-y-replace-upstart:
<pitti>  - Fix remaining issues of indicator systemd-ification landing; it landed now, after 4 months!
<pitti>  - Land ted's indicator-printers systemdification branch and corresponding unity fix to depend on that unit
<pitti>  - unity: Fix FTBFS due to new zesty cmake, and another FTBFS due to deprecated GdkScreen in zesty's Gtk
<pitti>  - unity-greeter: Port from upstart to systemd
<pitti>  - lightdm: Fix duplicate session bus in greeter
<pitti>  - Land seb128's hud upstartâ systemd branch
<pitti> distro:
<pitti>  - pango1.0: Fix autopkgtest regression
<pitti>  - python-apt: Add distro template for zesty to fix tests
<pitti>  - Try test kernels for slow boot kernel regression (#1626436)
<pitti> misc:
<pitti>  - Help tvoss with dynamic loopback devices for 14.04 (for snapd support)
<pitti>  - Set up apport retracers for zesty
<pitti>  - Travel preparations for cloud sprint next week
<pitti>  - lots of SRU reviews and archive admin
<pitti> ~ ze end ~
<doko> tdaitx: will do, when you're online, and neither at lunch or dinner ;p
<cyphermox> - shim, shim-signed, grub2, grub2-signed uploads to Zesty with new shim snapshot (LP: #1624096)
<cyphermox>   - shim revert in yakkety broke LP: #1581299, so we need to complete the SRUs ASAP.
<cyphermox> - initramfs-tools testing, upload to zesty (LP: #1621507)
<cyphermox> - working on bug LP: #1629972, to properly shut down iscsi remote rootfs.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1624096 in shim (Ubuntu) "yakkety: backport (or rebase to) fix eliminating a double-close in shim" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1624096
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1581299 in shim-signed (Ubuntu) "shim: set second stage not work" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1581299
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1621507 in initramfs-tools (Ubuntu Yakkety) "initramfs-tools configure_networking() fails to dhcp ipv6 addresses" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1621507
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1629972 in MAAS "networking stop incorrectly disconnects from (network) root filesystem" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1629972
<cyphermox> - isc-dhcp rework for initramfs /run/net{,6}-*.conf file contents (LP: #1636530)
<cyphermox> - golang-go.crypto snapshot and SRUs (LP: #1634609)
<cyphermox> - juju-core 2.0.0 release and SRUs (LP: #1617440)
<cyphermox> - started grub2 merge, rebasing patches onto ~beta3
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1636530 in isc-dhcp (Ubuntu Yakkety) "initramfs config script mixes IPv4 and IPv6 data in the net-$iface.conf file" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1636530
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1634609 in golang-go.crypto (Ubuntu Xenial) "de-vendorize golang-go.crypto from juju-core" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1634609
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1617440 in juju-core (Ubuntu Yakkety) "[SRU] Juju 2 GA" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1617440
<cyphermox> - investigating a possible bug in systemd-resolved's IPv4/IPv6 logic.
<cyphermox> - Plumbers next week, travelling on Monday; I'll try to be online whenever possible.
<cyphermox> (done)
<slangasek> any questions?
<slangasek> cyphermox: what's the outlook on having that isc-dhcp rework landed?
<cyphermox> isc-dhcp is already uploaded.
<cyphermox> it needs the SRU too, but it's simple and relatively safe, considering we reverted the initramfs magic.
<cyphermox> and well, initramfs-tools is also in zesty-proposed, waiting for tests.
<cyphermox> from there I was hoping jderose could also chime in, say if it looks good to him too.
<cyphermox> (but I haven't seen him online recently)
<cyphermox> on a very different note, we'll need to talk again about shims and secure boot and moving that forward, including making new keys and stuff.
<xnox> AOB NB! europe clocks fall back on sunday; USA clocks fall back the week after; AUS has already sprung forward.
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<barry> iow, no meeting will be fully attended until december
<pitti> in Athens we were mentioning using britney to land SRUs
<pitti> instead of manually doing sru-release and then forgetting about dependencies, broken tests, etc.
<slangasek> pitti: yeeeeess pleaaaase :)
<pitti> I think it's not actually that hard -- we already have a "7 day age" policy, and we'd just need to add a policy taht checks the verification tags
<pitti> is that worth pursuing?
<pitti> slangasek: so, something I should look at when I'm not stuck with high-prio bugs? :-)
<slangasek> pitti: ah, I have assumed that we would keep the stable releases frozen ('block-all') and require SRU team members to set unblock hints
<pitti> slangasek: or that, yes
<slangasek> pitti: I don't think we want auto-approval of SRUs based on tags, at least not for the first step
<xnox> and britney needs to know to copy things into -updates, rather than release pocket. =)
<pitti> slangasek: we actually already do have the block-all, as per e.g. http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/xenial/update_excuses.html
<xnox> what about -security, or screw that?
<pitti> I just don't have a good idea how the actual copying works -- who would know about that?
<slangasek> pitti: yes; we just need to change the tooling to do unblocking, and change proposed-migration to do the actual copying
<pitti> xnox: nah, there's no public info for that anyway
<slangasek> pitti: cjwatson or infinity are your best bet, but they may have forgotten and you may have to just look at the code :)
<slangasek> pitti: I believe 'heidi' is the key word
<pitti> yeah, HeidiResultsDelta is the list of "packages to copy", I just don't know where that goes
<pitti> well, I'll find out
<slangasek> ok, anything else?
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Oct 27 15:22:21 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-10-27-15.00.moin.txt
<pitti> thanks everyone
<slangasek> thanks!
<barry> thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-10-29
<linaporras_> Hi everyone
<linaporras_> is someone here from the LoCo Council?
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-10-23
<rbasak> o/
<rbasak> ddstreet: you're still down for this meeting on the agenda. Is this correct?
<ddstreet> yeah
<ddstreet> assuming the mtg is happening
<rbasak> Do you still want to proceed with the meeting?
<sil2100> o/
<ddstreet> rbasak i do, yes
<sil2100> (sorry for being late)
<jbicha> o/
 * rbasak has low confidence in the connection he's on today
<sil2100> \o
<rbasak> If I stop responding, assume I've dropped and I'm not coming back any time soon please.
<sil2100> Ok
<micahg> o/
<sil2100> I guess we have 4 at least?
<sil2100> Who wants to chair
<sil2100> ?
<micahg> sil2100: would you mind?  I'm a little distracted at the moment
<sil2100> Sure, but we'd need to do some rotation at one point ;)
<micahg> yeah, hopefully I can chair the next meeting
<sil2100> #startmeeting DMB
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Oct 23 15:11:10 2017 UTC.  The chair is sil2100. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic:
<sil2100> o/
<sil2100> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<BenC> o/
<sil2100> I guess the two (done) action items from the agenda are done and can be discarded
<sil2100> bdmurray: are you around?
<bdmurray> sil2100: Yeah, just got in an errand took longer than I expected
<sil2100> Did we get the PPU rights for fossfreedom enabled in the end?
<sil2100> bdmurray: o/
<sil2100> Hey!
<bdmurray> I think there is still a bug open that had some discussion in it
<sil2100> Oh my
<bdmurray> bug 1716770
<ubottu> bug 1716770 in ubuntu-community "[TB/DMB] New packageset ~personal-fossfreedom in Artful" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1716770
<sil2100> Ok, I'll try to find it and help with getting it through
<sil2100> Thanks
<sil2100> Because of the release things got a bit out of hand
<jbicha> I think it would make sense as a flavor set too instead of ppu
<bdmurray> So I think somebody needs to review the packageset vs his requested packages
<sil2100> +1 on that
<sil2100> Once we review those, is there anything else formal-wise that needs to be done for this to become an automatic packageset?
<sil2100> A TB bug or can we re-use this one?
<sil2100> Anyway, let's get that sorted after the meeting
<sil2100> #topic SRU Developer Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: SRU Developer Applications
<bdmurray> It sounded like slangasek had concerns about seeds being modified w/o DMB review.
<micahg> this wasn't meant to be a seed based package
<micahg> *packageset
<jbicha> micahg: why not?
<micahg> for exactly that reason :0
<micahg> :)
<micahg> it's not flavor upload rights, but rather personal upload rights for packages that he's worked on which coincides with some of the primary Budgie packaging (or that was my understanding at least)
<bdmurray> Regardless reviewing the seed vs the requested packages might make sense.
<micahg> sure, my vote was not for seed based upload rights though
<sil2100> I think originally fossfreedom just wanted upload rights for budgie packages
<sil2100> But this didn't really work as there was no packageset for budgie back then
<sil2100> So to avoid confusion he just went for PPU rights
<bdmurray> I think our debating of this is not helping the requestor. Maybe we should just do what they want.
<sil2100> Because we still couldn't really give him upload rights for the budgie packageset as this doesn't exist
<sil2100> Let's continue with the meeting and discuss later during AOB
<sil2100> (if needed)
<sil2100> #subtopic Dan Streetman
<sil2100> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ddstreet/UbuntuSRUDeveloperApplication
<sil2100> http://ubuntu-dev.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu-sponsorships.cgi?render=html&sponsoree=Dan+Streetman
<sil2100> ddstreet: o/
<sil2100> ddstreet: re-introduce yourself please
<ddstreet> hi all, i'm reapplying for sru developer
<ddstreet> last application: https://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2017/09/11/%23ubuntu-meeting.txt
<ddstreet> sponsored pkgs: http://ubuntu-dev.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu-sponsorships.cgi?render=html&sponsor=&sponsor_search=name&sponsoree=Dan+Streetman&sponsoree_search=name
<ddstreet> and this bug that i've created the debdiffs for is waiting https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/xenial/+source/mdadm/+bug/1617919
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1617919 in mdadm (Ubuntu Xenial) "mdadm segfault error 4 in libc-2.23.so" [High,Triaged]
<sil2100> Questions please
<jbicha> ddstreet: one question from before: is the Ubuntu kernel git repo public?
<ddstreet> jbicha yes the ubuntu kernel git repos are public
<jbicha> can you paste a link?
<ddstreet> from my git
<ddstreet> ubuntu/trusty	git://kernel.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ubuntu-trusty.git (fetch)
<ddstreet> ubuntu/trusty	git://kernel.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ubuntu-trusty.git (push)
<ddstreet> ubuntu/xenial	git://kernel.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ubuntu-xenial.git (fetch)
<ddstreet> ubuntu/xenial	git://kernel.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ubuntu-xenial.git (push)
<ddstreet> ubuntu/zesty	git://kernel.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ubuntu-zesty.git (fetch)
<ddstreet> ubuntu/zesty	git://kernel.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ubuntu-zesty.git (push)
<ddstreet> jbicha or if you mean the special kernel repos, they are in a different location, e.g.
<ddstreet> ubuntu/aws	git+ssh://git.launchpad.net/~canonical-kernel/ubuntu/+source/linux-aws (fetch)
<jbicha> I was looking for http://kernel.ubuntu.com/git/ubuntu/ubuntu-artful.git/log/?qt=author&q=streetman
<jbicha> :)
<ddstreet> sorry, i assumed you mean git url
<jbicha> no problem, I found it
<sil2100> ddstreet: a question from me: after you prepared an SRU, prepared the bug and uploaded the change to the archive (and this upload got accepted to -proposed), what work do you need to do next on that SRU?
<ddstreet> verify the proposed package and mark the bug as verification-done-RELEASE
<ddstreet> for affected releases
<sil2100> Anything else?
<ddstreet> add a comment to the bug with the details of the verification
<ddstreet> then after 7 days or more, ping a sru person to move it to -updates
<ddstreet> check the autopkgtest results
<ddstreet> of there are any failures, explain them in the bug - or if the failures are a result of the change, it will need reworking
<sil2100> Ok, thanks
<ddstreet> which likely would involve re-patching, then re-uploading to -proposed again
<sil2100> btw. the ping-the-sru-person is not required ;p
<ddstreet> heh well hopefully not ;-)
<sil2100> You can do that if the SRU is somehow priority but usually we'll just do it when the time comes ;)
<ddstreet> it's not always clear when that time is to outsiders ;-)
<jbicha> I'm looking at the last 2 SRUs from https://launchpad.net/~ddstreet/+uploaded-packages
<jbicha> and they got sponsored very quickly, like same day
<ddstreet> yes, last thurs i believe
<ddstreet> jbicha you mean the lshw upload?
<jbicha> well not initramfs-toolsbut the other 2 recent ones, just commenting
<jbicha> lshw and vlan
<ddstreet> sorry im not sure what vlan you mean?
<ddstreet> that was sept 20
<ddstreet> for vlan
<ddstreet> the two lshw uploads are the same bug, just one for x and other for t
<rbasak> o/
<jbicha> you uploaded the debdiff for LP: #1716964 and it got sponsored later that day
<ddstreet> jbicha am i misunderstanding you?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1716964 in vlan (Debian) "VLAN network script if-up.d/ip limits rp_filter value to 0 or 1" [Unknown,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1716964
<ddstreet> i think so yes
<ddstreet> sorry, i'm not clear if there is a question for me?
<jbicha> sometimes, things get stuck in the sponsoring queue for a very long time, so I was just commenting that you have got some much quicker than that
<jbicha> no question, just a comment
<ddstreet> oh ok thanks
<ddstreet> yes, i can't really let things hang out in the sponsorship queue, so since i don't have upload rights i have to actively find sponsors to pester
<ddstreet> obviously, that's why i am requesting upload rights
<bdmurray> previously you had mentioned being interested in sponsoring SRU uploads for other people. Is that still something you plan on doing?
<ddstreet> yes
<jbicha> it looks like you've done an average of 1 SRU set per month, sustained over the past year and a half (another comment, not really a question)
<ddstreet> yes, on average, although i think i've picked up the pace significantly in the last month, since my last application was rejected because i hadn't done enough SRUs
<ddstreet> before that, i had done mostly kernel fixes which don't show up in the sponsor list, and aren't relevant for this application
<ddstreet> well, i'm not one to say if kernel fixes are relevant for this application, that is what bdmurray suggested during my first application
<rbasak> No endorsements from two out of three of your latest sponsors?
<sil2100> I left a comment
<sil2100> It's like a soft endorsement ;)
<ddstreet> rbasak i believe i asked you a while back, and i did ask apw but he did not respond
<ddstreet> maybe didn't see my request
<ddstreet> thanks sil2100!
<jbicha> (no more questions from me for this application)
<sil2100> Any other questions?
 * rbasak is still reviewing
<ddstreet> re: endorsement i also asked cpaelzer but i don't think he saw my request either
<rbasak> So far, everything I see suggests a high quality of SRUswork.
<rbasak> I'm still a little concerned by not having a big enough sample size though.
<rbasak> What do other DMB members think of this?
<micahg> same
<ddstreet> rbasak micahg what would you consider a big enough sample size?
<rbasak> That's a good question. I think it's variable depending on the quality of work demonstrated and the strength of the endorsements.
<ddstreet> looks like i have ~22 separate SRUs so far, not counting multiple releases per SRU.
<rbasak> https://launchpad.net/~ddstreet/+uploaded-packages is showing me 23 in total, including development release uploads, and including series SRU duplication.
<rbasak> What am I missing?
<ddstreet> rbasak i'm going by http://ubuntu-dev.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu-sponsorships.cgi?render=html&sponsor=&sponsor_search=name&sponsoree=Dan+Streetman&sponsoree_search=name
<ddstreet> so 23 sounds right
<sil2100> It's hard to judge what sample size we require here
<ddstreet> what have you required of past applicants?
<sil2100> But I'm rather confident in ddstreet's knowledge about the SRU process
<bdmurray> I think there's only been one other applicant
<ddstreet> for SRU, yes
<micahg> usually a full cycle focused on whatever they're applying for
<ddstreet> the sru developer team was created for him, slashd, because you were not ready to give him coredev
<rbasak> To narrow it down, if I saw somewhere between 5 and 10 (not sure exactly) recent SRUs that required no significant review changes and had endorsements from >90% of sponsors from that sample, I'd be happy.
<jbicha> I think applicants tend to upload more frequently than you do but I'm ok with the total upload count
<sil2100> Should we start the vote?
<sil2100> Everyone ready?
<sil2100> We have this tendency to running over our meeting time
<rbasak> I'm +0 right now. I don't have a list of SRUs in front of me as qualified by my criteria above to review.
<rbasak> That seems to be mostly an issue of data mining.
<sil2100> Ok, I see rbasak started the voting so let's just start it formally
<sil2100> #vote Grant ddstreet SRU Developer
<rbasak> Perhaps, in hindsight, we could ask applicants for this team to provide this as a summary to save us all doing it individually.
<meetingology> Please vote on: Grant ddstreet SRU Developer
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<rbasak> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from rbasak
<jbicha> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from jbicha
<sil2100> +1, I have no good feeling on what criteria we have but I'm happy with ddstreet's SRUs so far
<meetingology> +1, I have no good feeling on what criteria we have but I'm happy with ddstreet's SRUs so far received from sil2100
<rbasak> To be clear, I _am_ happy with the quality of the work that I've seen.
<sil2100> bdmurray, BenC, micahg: ?
<micahg> +0 I have a good technically feeling, and am very close to voting in favor, but still feel like we should have a few more recent SRUs as rbasak mentioned
<meetingology> +0 I have a good technically feeling, and am very close to voting in favor, but still feel like we should have a few more recent SRUs as rbasak mentioned received from micahg
<bdmurray> +1 I think the working being done is of fine quality, but I'm still concerned about the posibility of things being sponsored. I guess the SRU team is a safety check there though.
<meetingology> +1 I think the working being done is of fine quality, but I'm still concerned about the posibility of things being sponsored. I guess the SRU team is a safety check there though. received from bdmurray
<ddstreet> bdmurray i don't quite understand what exactly you're concerned about there, but thanks for the +1
<sil2100> BenC: are you still around to vote? :)
<bdmurray> ddstreet: I think I'm concerned about you having the skills to judge the quality of an SRU.
<ddstreet> i see
<ddstreet> bdmurray feel free to point out any specific examples where I've done something wrong - that will help me improve myself, right
<ddstreet> so, is the voting done?
<jbicha> sorry, we're trying to figure out if we can end the vote now without BenC
<sil2100> Yeah, some discussions on the procedures
 * ddstreet refills coffee
<sil2100> Sorry about this, would be much better if we got this one more vote from BenC ;)
<jbicha> sil2100: maybe we should move on with the rest of the meeting?
<bdmurray> Please
<jbicha> rbalint: are you here?
<sil2100> Ok, let me end the vote
<sil2100> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Grant ddstreet SRU Developer
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:2
<meetingology> Motion carried
<sil2100> rbasak: did I end to early?
<sil2100> ddstreet: ok, sorry for the wait, congratulations!
<ddstreet> thanks
<sil2100> I think we have this settled
<sil2100> (I think)
<sil2100> Who wants to take the action?
<sil2100> I'll just take it
<sil2100> #action sil2100 to grant ddstreet SRU permissions
<meetingology> ACTION: sil2100 to grant ddstreet SRU permissions
<sil2100> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<sil2100> We probably had something but since we're already 25 minutes over, I'd say... let's discuss next time
<sil2100> We just need to make sure to push fossfreedom's upload rights forward
<sil2100> Anyway, if you don't mind, I need to finish the meeting since I need to go AFK
<sil2100> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Oct 23 16:26:30 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-10-23-15.11.moin.txt
<sil2100> Thanks everyone o/
<tyhicks> hello
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Oct 23 16:31:03 2017 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<mdeslaur> \o
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<leosilva> o/
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> hey
<jdstrand> This week I plan to:
<jdstrand> * finish some snappy-debug work based on sprint feedback
<jdstrand> * do a ton of snapd PR reviews. Some for layouts, which I expect to take a lot of time since they are attempting to use overlayfs
<jdstrand> * miscellaneous interface policy updates
<jdstrand> * get back to uid/gid seccomp arg filtering work as have time
<jdstrand> that's it from me. mdeslaur, you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm in the happy place this week
<mdeslaur> I have a short week as I'm off on friday
<mdeslaur> I just published a few updates
<mdeslaur> and I have a couple of others to test
<mdeslaur> I'll probably pick something new off the list after that
<mdeslaur> that's it, sbeattie, you're up
<sbeattie> I'm also in the happy place this week
<sbeattie> I'm doing some investigating on notifying snaps that they have security issues in embedded packaging
<sbeattie> I'm also going to be focusing on apparmor this week, in concert with some of the work debian is doing
<sbeattie> I also have an update to finish up, and the usual set of kernel triage to do
<sbeattie> that'll take up my week. tyhicks?
<tyhicks> happy_place++
<tyhicks> I need to finalize the upstream libseccomp-golang changes and update the PR
<tyhicks> update the seccomp(2) man page for the kernel logging changes
<tyhicks> eCryptfs patch review
<tyhicks> AppArmor work to support Debian's !AppArmor-in-Debian sprint
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> I don't think jjohansen is back yet
<tyhicks> sarnold: go ahead and we'll circle back to jjohansen
<sarnold> I'm on bug triage this week
<sarnold> I'll also be helping out the debian apparmor sprint as I can
<sarnold> and doing MIRs, I expect to finish spice-vdagent early in the week
<sarnold> with what time may be left I'll look at the pcp changes in response the last cycle's MIR
<sarnold> that's it for me, chrisccoulson?
<jbicha> yay, MIRs
<chrisccoulson> I've got a chromium update to test and publish
<chrisccoulson> Then I need to finish off the rust 1.20 update - artful is done, I just need to backport it. Fingers crossed there are no new problems and this is the end of it for a few weeks
<chrisccoulson> then hopefully fun stuff
<chrisccoulson> that's me done
 * tyhicks crosses fingers
<tyhicks> ratliff: you're up
<ratliff> I'm on community this week
<ratliff> After that I have quite a bit of internally focused work which will consume my week.
<ratliff> on to you, leosilva
<leosilva> I'm in CVE triage this week
<leosilva> I have a couple of UNS to publish for precise
<leosilva> besides that I'll do my hunting for pkgs to update and watch some git for triage in pkgs I'm waiting patches
<leosilva> that's for me
<leosilva> tyhicks: it's back to yu!
<tyhicks> jjohansen: any chance you're back yet?
<tyhicks> lets move on
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/swift-plugin-s3.html
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/sniffit.html
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ruby-rack.html
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/digikam.html
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/webfs.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jbicha> https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2017/10/msg00405.html
<jbicha> I think Debian GNOME would be ok with a totem apparmor profile in the totem packaging, except that I don't think the Debian GNOME has apparmor expertise to maintain it
<jbicha> (mentioned since y'all were talking about apparmor in Debian)
<tyhicks> jbicha: we're working closely with intrigeri all week on this sort of stuff
<tyhicks> jbicha: thanks for mentioning it
<jbicha> thanks, that's all from me :)
<tyhicks> cool :)
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson, ratliff, leosilva: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Oct 23 16:45:36 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-10-23-16.31.moin.txt
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks!
<leosilva> tks tyhicks !
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-10-24
<powersj> teward: you around to run in the meeting in 10?
<cpaelzer> o/
<rbasak> o/
<slashd> o/
<powersj> o/
<smb> o/
<powersj> well teward has not responded
<powersj> so.... here we go!
<powersj> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Oct 24 16:03:18 2017 UTC.  The chair is powersj. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<powersj> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<powersj> * nacc to write a release notes entry on ipv6 netboot (carried over)
<powersj> * nacc to write a server guide entry on ipv6 netboot (carried over)
<powersj> * rbasak to add maintainership info to mysql triage page (carried over)
<powersj> * dpb1 to follow up on #1686437
<powersj> nacc: rbasak: dpb1: updates?
<rbasak> Please carry
<cpaelzer> can we kill the ipv6 things?
<cpaelzer> if not important enough to do for 6 months maybe they are not important at all compared to what we thought when adding the action
<powersj> +1
<cpaelzer> nacc: would you ack to just drop the actions?
<rharper> o/
<cpaelzer> reality is catching up with is here, so why not resolving it that way instead of checking every week
<powersj> I agree, would rather us have a good solid list of things to do especially for the LTS
<powersj> versus carry over week after week
<rbasak> Sure, you can drop mine too.
<rbasak> I need to do a mass catchup on MySQL, but haven't got to it yet.
<rbasak> When I do, I'll try to remember to do the wiki triage page too.
 * cpaelzer waves the broom
<cpaelzer> I keep adding bugs to the triage tag
<powersj> #info dropping old action items. Owners can review and re-add with new items if necessary
<powersj> moving on
<powersj> #topic Ubuntu Server Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Development
<powersj> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BionicBeaver/ReleaseSchedule
<powersj> #action powersj: update irc agenda with bionic links
<meetingology> ACTION: powersj: update irc agenda with bionic links
<powersj> #link https://trello.com/b/U9HhWyT0/daily-ubuntu-server
<powersj> #info Artful released last Thursday!
<powersj> #info 18.04 LTS to be named Bionic Beaver
<powersj> anything to add about bionic?
<cpaelzer> zombeaver
<cpaelzer> sorry, could not resist
<powersj> :P
<powersj> ok moving on then
<powersj> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (slashd, ddstreet)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (slashd, ddstreet)
<powersj> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-z-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<powersj> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-x-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<slashd> Business as usual for us, everything under control -> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/25810426/
<powersj> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-t-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<cpaelzer> That percona bug is on a daily iteration between niedbalski and me
<powersj> #info Business as usual for us, everything under control -> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/25810426/
<cpaelzer> I know it has been some time but we get closer
<slashd> cpaelzer, thanks for your help on this btw, we appreciate it
<cpaelzer> yw
<powersj> slashd: thanks for update!
<cpaelzer> I'm just rbasak2 in this case
<powersj> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
<slashd> thanks rbasak as well ;)
<smb> The beaver just showed its head, so really nothing that could be told as news. Would there be questions?
<cpaelzer> smb: hey new release - you know the question
<cpaelzer> smb: what will the kernel be?
<cpaelzer> 4.15?
<smb> a Linux one
<cpaelzer> Hurd-beaver
<smb> cpaelzer, but yeah most likely 4.15 but don't blame me if it is not
<powersj> *slow clap to both answers*
<powersj> any other questions for kernel folks?
<powersj> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<powersj> anyone got anything?
<powersj> As a heads up we do have a section on the new community forums
<powersj> # linkhttps://community.ubuntu.com/c/server
<powersj> ugh let me try that again
<powersj> #link https://community.ubuntu.com/c/server
<powersj> #info server section on new community forum
<powersj> last call
<powersj> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<powersj> #info Next meeting Tuesday, 2017-10-24 at 1600 UTC, chair will be teward if he is around
<powersj> cheers
<powersj> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Oct 24 16:14:33 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-10-24-16.03.moin.txt
<cpaelzer> Thanks powersj!
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-10-25
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<eunuvr> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: ajmitch_ kees flexiondotorg Tribaal apw mwhudson tyhicks LocutusOfBorg coreycb Noskcaj dosaboy philroche ubottu wolsen pleia2 doko markthomas tinwood inetpro chiluk slickymaster powersj ejat sladen fnordahl czajkowski aisrael edwinksl ahoneybun Tm_T lool FJKong cydizen Odd_Bloke mcs_ sgclark maxb tinoco gsilvapt lionel ratliff thedac sarnold jose DJones Mmike Mister_Q yofel cliv
<eunuvr> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: sladen tinoco ajmitch_ tyhicks clivejo flexiondotorg apw Tribaal yofel mcs_ edwinksl lool lionel ratliff Mmike maxb thedac Mister_Q sgclark ubottu inetpro ochosi bdmurray Tm_T pleia2 slickymaster mwhudson powersj Odd_Bloke LocutusOfBorg fnordahl gsilvapt FourDollars abrody ts cargonza czajkowski chiluk ejat coreycb wolsen tinwood DJones Noskcaj Kamilion hyperair mariogrip djinni
<[sky][shebg> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: lifeless ubot9 popey genii jamespage Laney PotatoGim elopio retoaded ogasawara_ ubuntucraze davidcalle jjohansen rbasak mdeslaur cpaelzer slashd micahg sbeattie nacc hggdh Spydar007 meetingology leosilva arubislander ogra_ chrisccoulson kirb caribou Adri2000 xnox jdstrand bdrung ivan slangasek Mikaela rbalint JanC charles BenC gsilv Logan pavlushka mhall119 WaVeR bladernr
<[sky][shebg> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: rbasak cpaelzer Croepha Adri2000 micahg WaVeR genii slashd retoaded med_ ogra_ bdrung jjohansen mhall119 leosilva gaughen PotatoGim Spydar007 arubislander jamespage xnox BenC elopio kirb rcj jdstrand ubot9 ubuntucraze nacc gsilv lamont dax popey mdeslaur ddstreet lifeless bladernr pavlushka smoser slangasek meetingology hggdh Laney phunyguy Logan el rbalint ivan Mikaela d
<[sky][shebg> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: rbalint gsilv jamespage Croepha mhall119 jdstrand ogasawara_ caribou ubot9 med_ dax meetingology JanC jjohansen sbeattie genii slashd popey ivan lifeless rbasak gaughen Spydar007 BenC hggdh ubuntucraze ddstreet nacc Mikaela slangasek lamont leosilva davidcalle ogra_ charles kirb Adri2000 phunyguy WaVeR chrisccoulson bdrung micahg arubislander rcj cpaelzer pavlushka smoser
<[sky][shebg> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: elopio popey med_ ogasawara_ Spydar007 xnox micahg lamont Logan gaughen rcj bladernr ubot9 Adri2000 el davidcalle charles dax mhall119 retoaded pavlushka hggdh BenC arubislander slashd jamespage slangasek JanC bdrung phunyguy nacc Croepha ddstreet smoser mdeslaur jdstrand rbalint kirb lifeless sbeattie chrisccoulson ogra_ gsilv ivan cpaelzer caribou PotatoGim genii ubuntu
<eunuvr> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: Tribaal cydizen mariogrip DJones Tm_T mwhudson sarnold FourDollars chiluk bdmurray ajmitch_ ts philroche gsilvapt hyperair coreycb jose tinwood ahoneybun Kamilion tyhicks Mister_Q thedac kees ratliff powersj djinni ochosi doko lool mcs_ Odd_Bloke markthomas sgclark edwinksl acheronuk flexiondotorg Mmike dosaboy inetpro Noskcaj czajkowski sladen pleia2 lionel apw clivejo ejat sli
<eunuvr> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: czajkowski Tribaal mcs_ LocutusOfBorg abrody chiluk fnordahl jose sladen bdmurray Tm_T tyhicks Mmike tinwood ts coreycb DJones acheronuk yofel lionel clivejo dosaboy kees ubottu lool inetpro djinni markthomas gsilvapt FJKong slickymaster ochosi Noskcaj thedac tinoco pleia2 apw cargonza doko ejat Mister_Q edwinksl sarnold philroche sgclark flexiondotorg ratliff mwhudson mariogrip
<[sky][shebg> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: sbeattie retoaded charles Laney ogra_ lamont xnox jjohansen leosilva elopio genii kirb dax phunyguy slashd gsilv ubot9 davidcalle smoser jamespage ubuntucraze gaughen mhall119 rcj nacc ogasawara_ hggdh meetingology micahg med_ lifeless BenC WaVeR rbasak popey Adri2000 bladernr Spydar007 bdrung rbalint slangasek JanC mdeslaur Logan ivan PotatoGim cpaelzer ddstreet Croepha 
<eunuvr> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: FourDollars Tribaal jose clivejo FJKong gsilvapt ahoneybun sladen pleia2 tyhicks Kamilion ochosi Noskcaj abrody mwhudson Odd_Bloke sgclark LocutusOfBorg lionel ejat czajkowski tinwood fnordahl mariogrip djinni lool ratliff inetpro wolsen thedac maxb ajmitch_ flexiondotorg slickymaster doko Mmike bdmurray chiluk powersj dosaboy DJones sarnold mcs_ cydizen markthomas coreycb Tm_T 
<eunuvr> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: philroche markthomas Kamilion yofel tyhicks chiluk abrody gsilvapt FourDollars aisrael clivejo edwinksl mwhudson DJones sgclark pleia2 djinni cydizen Tm_T LocutusOfBorg slickymaster czajkowski wolsen thedac inetpro kees lool mcs_ Mister_Q hyperair ubottu mariogrip sarnold cargonza dosaboy Noskcaj coreycb Odd_Bloke ahoneybun tinoco bdmurray ochosi fnordahl doko tinwood lionel FJK
<[sky][shebg> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: meetingology leosilva caribou el WaVeR bdrung slashd gsilv ubot9 jamespage Logan lamont slangasek ubuntucraze PotatoGim mhall119 BenC Laney gaughen jjohansen micahg ddstreet Croepha Adri2000 sbeattie rbalint hggdh JanC ogasawara_ ivan cpaelzer xnox lifeless kirb popey arubislander Mikaela bladernr phunyguy rcj dax jdstrand ogra_ mdeslaur charles nacc genii retoaded davidc
<eunuvr> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: sarnold Kamilion djinni slickymaster ejat cydizen tinoco pleia2 gsilvapt ts sgclark aisrael DJones ajmitch_ edwinksl clivejo Mister_Q fnordahl ubottu tinwood mariogrip cargonza acheronuk lool apw FJKong LocutusOfBorg mwhudson wolsen tyhicks chiluk hyperair ochosi Tm_T kees sladen czajkowski philroche flexiondotorg dosaboy coreycb abrody jose yofel Mmike thedac bdmurray Noskcaj m
<[sky][shebg> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: meetingology elopio Mikaela lamont slangasek jjohansen el bdrung JanC WaVeR dax ubuntucraze smoser ddstreet ubot9 jamespage rbalint BenC genii rbasak Adri2000 jdstrand Croepha arubislander Spydar007 ogasawara_ hggdh PotatoGim davidcalle popey Laney ogra_ ivan rcj bladernr phunyguy sbeattie gaughen mhall119 caribou lifeless Logan micahg slashd med_ charles pavlushka chrisc
<[sky][shebg> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: Laney BenC pavlushka genii Adri2000 ivan phunyguy bdrung davidcalle lifeless jjohansen ogasawara_ slangasek JanC smoser dax gaughen ubot9 slashd Spydar007 sbeattie xnox kirb jdstrand ubuntucraze med_ meetingology ddstreet retoaded arubislander rbasak chrisccoulson Croepha el WaVeR nacc micahg hggdh rbalint PotatoGim Logan popey bladernr cpaelzer rcj ogra_ caribou leosilva
<eunuvr> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: tinwood hyperair tinoco lool clivejo cargonza markthomas Tribaal yofel apw cydizen acheronuk ejat mariogrip ratliff coreycb ahoneybun chiluk sarnold inetpro kees thedac Odd_Bloke FourDollars mcs_ DJones powersj Tm_T aisrael czajkowski ts abrody pleia2 Mmike lionel gsilvapt wolsen dosaboy Kamilion ochosi sladen Noskcaj slickymaster edwinksl flexiondotorg Mister_Q fnordahl maxb bd
<fox_dakk> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: cyphermox gaughen jamespage WaVeR rbasak Adri2000 jdstrand smoser arubislander Sarvatt bdrung charles sakrecoer bdmurray pavlushka slashd niedbalski popey Trevinho caribou wxl rcj blackboxsw philroche micahg hggdh YoBoY tsimonq2 [sky][shebg lamont rbalint elopio dragan-s Odd_Bloke rharper retoaded ogra_ jjohansen mhall119 broder slangasek tdaitx meetingology Laney Mikaela Tm
<fox_dakk> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: davidcalle slangasek ubuntucraze charles dgadomski lamont med_ rharper Spydar007 retoaded tdaitx cpaelzer micahg jamespage arosales niedbalski broder WaVeR pavlushka Ampelbein ddstreet smoser PotatoGim sforshee genii kirb Odd_Bloke YoBoY arubislander hggdh sbeattie leosilva elopio dkessel jjohansen xnox brookswarner philroche ubot9 teward Mikaela Adri2000 cjwatson Sarvatt ph
<diamorl> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: ddstreet Spydar007 rbasak med_ leosilv ivan Croepha cpaelzer Unit193 mdeslaur eunuvr JanC lamont Adri2000 davidcalle el WaVeR jjohansen phunyguy slangasek meetingology smoser ubuntucraze mhall119 genii bladernr Logan ogra_ sbeattie PotatoGim rbalint pavlushka caribou jamespage [sky][shebg lifeless fox_dakk rcj ubot9 ogasawara_ arubislander retoaded chrisccoulson BenC elopio po
<thewojw> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: dax BenC meetingology davidcalle Croepha lifeless genii jjohansen ubot9 ogasawara_ JanC Unit193 [sky][shebg ogra_ sbeattie ddstreet xnox rbalint bdrung Mikaela lamont caribou el ubuntucraze retoaded slashd rbasak Logan Adri2000 cpaelzer smoser WaVeR slangasek PotatoGim popey ivan Spydar007 elopio charles arubislander micahg kirb eunuvr fox_dakk Laney med_ jamespage gaughen mha
<thewojw> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: Laney jamespage lamont charles Spydar007 ogasawara_ ubuntucraze bdrung genii fox_dakk slangasek el ddstreet meetingology davidcalle smoser lifeless xnox hggdh JanC rcj ogra_ phunyguy BenC gaughen mdeslaur slashd elopio ubot9 rbalint Unit193 dax Logan chrisccoulson nacc kirb bladernr caribou cpaelzer mhall119 eunuvr diamorl arubislander pavlushka Croepha retoaded sbeattie jjoha
<diamorl> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: rbasak JanC Laney PotatoGim charles caribou ogasawara_ rbalint ddstreet leosilv bdrung mdeslaur nacc jdstrand eunuvr popey dax Adri2000 arubislander Unit193 elopio meetingology ivan ubuntucraze rcj gaughen chrisccoulson Mikaela smoser BenC bladernr davidcalle Logan slashd lamont [sky][shebg sbeattie retoaded phunyguy WaVeR med_ jamespage pavlushka xnox Croepha hggdh kirb cpael
<[sky][shebg> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: xnox ubot9 jdstrand ddstreet Adri2000 slashd nacc Croepha pavlushka caribou lifeless davidcalle bladernr el popey ogra_ arubislander rbalint smoser retoaded charles Spydar007 micahg ivan cpaelzer PotatoGim genii lamont jamespage mhall119 kirb rbasak JanC ogasawara_ hggdh ubuntucraze rcj slangasek sbeattie jjohansen Mikaela WaVeR BenC Laney mdeslaur med_ dax leosilva gsilv
<[sky][shebg> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: Croepha BenC ogra_ ubuntucraze arubislander med_ JanC ubot9 jdstrand mdeslaur hggdh sbeattie slashd PotatoGim xnox nacc phunyguy leosilva mhall119 retoaded ddstreet dax Spydar007 kirb Mikaela ivan davidcalle bdrung Logan genii gaughen lamont gsilv caribou lifeless Adri2000 chrisccoulson charles rbalint WaVeR rcj micahg meetingology popey bladernr el cpaelzer slangasek jjo
<eunuvr> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: bdmurray mariogrip hyperair ubottu fnordahl philroche Tm_T doko mwhudson pleia2 Tribaal edwinksl abrody DJones powersj apw ochosi wolsen gsilvapt tinoco ahoneybun ts aisrael sgclark djinni Odd_Bloke Kamilion sarnold maxb FJKong yofel slickymaster markthomas mcs_ inetpro cargonza tyhicks clivejo ratliff ejat Mmike czajkowski cydizen thedac chiluk Mister_Q dosaboy ajmitch_ FourDol
<eunuvr> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: yofel tyhicks markthomas lionel flexiondotorg Tribaal maxb aisrael coreycb hyperair tinoco mwhudson abrody Kamilion kees edwinksl powersj Mister_Q dosaboy clivejo inetpro sarnold ts ahoneybun wolsen acheronuk Odd_Bloke sladen bdmurray LocutusOfBorg cargonza thedac sgclark mcs_ czajkowski ochosi doko tinwood Tm_T FourDollars slickymaster cydizen Mmike philroche gsilvapt ubottu FJ
<BlackNigga> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: WaVeR lamont lifeless meetingology jjohansen eunuvr rbasak Laney JanC micahg pavlushka bdrung ubot9 ogasawara_ phunyguy popey med dax davidcalle caribou ubuntucraze slangasek xnox arubislander Spydar007 jamespage ogra_ ddstreet elopio rbalint Unit193 slashd PotatoGim smoser el ivan Logan mdeslaur sbeattie BenC hggdh charles gaughen cpaelzer Croepha chrisccoulson genii Mik
<Nitehawlo> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: thewojw mdeslaur PotatoGim dkessel lamont Ampelbein davidcalle blackboxsw gaughen WaVeR phunyguy Mister_Q mapreri chrisccoulson meetingology pavlushka rbasak marcoceppi Mikaela JanC YoBoY rharper elopio philroche dragan-s sakrecoer bdrung Croepha Laney apw micahg cpaelzer lifeless ubuntulog ubottu genii niedbalski jjohansen tdaitx slangasek #ub coreycb Adri2000 ddstreet Tr
<BlackNigga> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: elopio phunyguy retoaded genii Croepha ogasawara_ dax sbeattie ivan fox_dakk ubot9 ubuntucraze bdrung micahg PotatoGim ogra_ med gaughen cpaelzer JanC nacc xnox caribou [sky][shebg pavlushka Laney Spydar007 Unit193 charles rbalint mhall119 popey BenC meetingology lamont Logan el chrisccoulson Mikaela WaVeR rbasak jjohansen eunuvr hggdh mdeslaur slangasek smoser diamorl Ad
<occhiverdnc> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: retoaded mapreri blackboxsw mhall119 diamorl [sky][shebg apw arosales Mikaela Trevinho dgadomski Odd_Bloke ubot9 cjwatson bdrung bdmurray cpaelzer mdeslaur Tm_T tdaitx nacc phunyguy Croepha rbasak teward BlackNigga WaVeR Lo ogra_ cyphermox genii stgraber coreycb fox_dakk YoBoY arubislander ogasawara_ Mister_Q xnox wxl ubuntulog brookswarner broder chrisccoulson Spydar007
<gsilvapt> holy
<edwinksl> lol
<yofel> o.O
 * genii makes sure the coffee and cookies keep flowing in Unit193's direction
<clivejo> so el, why we being flooded?
<el> clivejo: because i banned him for spamming about someone else.
<el> who banned him for spamming about someone else
<clivejo> ah
<el> but i'm sure it's not the common denominator at all
<clivejo> just being nosy :)
<el> clearly it's all my fault
<el> yea ik :)
<sarnold> ah so we can expect some flooding about Unit193 in the near future then
<el> sarnold: correct
<Unit193> Nono, el unbanned the wrong one.  I just ban.
<clivejo> indeed, going to a lot of trouble
<el> i don't think he knew abotu the unban until now though
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-10-26
<slangasek> el: thanks for your work, as always
<el> np :)
<tr3m3nhs> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: lifeless
<tr3m3nhs> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: rcj
<Imalda> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: nzoueidi
<d_o_c_torku> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: jamespage
<Imalda> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: cjwatson
<n4n3tyj> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: koralgzm
<d_o_c_torku> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: pekkari
<n4n3tyj> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: chrisccoulson
<koralgzm> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: lamont
<caballerohw> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: ddstreet
<koralgzm> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: dragan-s
<caballerohw> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: bbcmicrocomputer
<afghanbaciu> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: caribou
<afghanbaciu> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: el
<dewdroos> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: hggdh
<tr3m3nhs> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: ubot9
<tr3m3nhs> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: kirb
<dewdroos> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: Imalda
<crespihg> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: redgat
<cloukq> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: niedbalski
<seliniy> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: d_o_c_torku
<crespihg> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: caribou
<Imalda> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: arosales
<cloukq> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: Mister_Q
<seliniy> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: dewdroos
<d_o_c_torku> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: wxl
<Imalda> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: ogra_
<d_o_c_torku> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: smoser
<sosue> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: phunyguy
<n4n3tyj> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: cpaelzer
<n4n3tyj> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: Croepha
<koralgzm> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: tsimonq2
<sosue> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: Croepha
<caballerohw> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: rbalint
<caballerohw> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: ogra_
<koralgzm> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: Trevinho
<snvl> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: ochosi
<flz> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: nzoueidi
<snvl> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: meetingology
<flz> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: aisrael
<cloukq> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: mapreri
<afghanbaciu> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: elopio
<afghanbaciu> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: n4n3tyj
<tr3m3nhs> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: tinwood
<tr3m3nhs> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: retoaded
<pipparozq> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: kasur
<pipparozq> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: leosilva
<evilheartdt> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: Mmike
<dewdroos> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: rbasak
<dewdroos> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: micahg
<crespihg> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: mapreri
<c00kiel> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: lamont
<puqc> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: pipparozq
<c00kiel> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: broder
<crespihg> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: tdaitx
<puqc> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: c00kiel
<d_o_c_torku> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: coreycb
<n4n3tyj> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: phunyguy
<n4n3tyj> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: lifele
<sosue> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: seliniy
<d_o_c_torku> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: sbeattie
<sosue> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: sbeattie
<im_yourew> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: xnox
<koralgzm> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: ubottu
<snvl> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: phunyguy
<maiczp> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: Ampelbein
<caballerohw> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: ivan
<caballerohw> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: cloukq
<snvl> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: Odd_Bloke
<maiczp> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: blackboxsw
<flz> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: redgat
<c00kiel> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: marcoceppi
<c00kiel> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: el
<ifrxm> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: ah
<ifrxm> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: redgat
<pipparozq> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: snvl
<pipparozq> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: rbalint
<uzguncx> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: Noskcaj
<crespihg> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: cking
<ribeljv> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: pipparozq
<ribeljv> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: snvl
<trixtvg> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: dairy
<cloukq> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: Trevinho
<tr3m3nhs> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: med_
<dewdroos> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: tinwood
<Rayliaqm> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: niedbalski
<trixtvg> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: djrakz
<dewdroos> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: meetingology
<ic4rih> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: LocutusOfBorg
<evilheartdt> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: arubislander
<evilheartdt> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: arubislander
<tr3m3nhs> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: popey
<Rayliaqm> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: abrody
<cloukq> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: Imalda
<cerb1atru> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: etot
<dairy> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: Kamilion
<dairy> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: smoser
<puppro> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: med_
<puppro> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: Croepha
<gardide> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: rharper
<d_o_c_torku> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: Tm_T
<snvl> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: JanC
<snvl> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: JanC
<darinms> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: ribeljv
<flz> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: pavlushka
<flz> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: slangasek
<darinms> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: sosue
<ifrxm> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: koralgzm
<ifrxm> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: bbcmicrocomputer
<pipparozq> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: retoaded
<pipparozq> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: rbalint
<c00kiel> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: n4n3tyj
<nazgqe> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: toddy
<nazgqe> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: im_yourew
<c00kiel> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: caribou
<birikkilh> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: dkessel
<uzguncx> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: mhall119
<crespihg> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: d_o_c_torku
<crespihg> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: yofel
<djrakz> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: FJKong
<djrakz> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: kasur
<uzguncx> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: Mister_Q
<puqc> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: leosilva
<puqc> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: snvl
<little-oyo> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: sosue
<little-oyo> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: el
<ankbeyefetx> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: cydizen
<ankbeyefetx> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: slickymaster
<kenshiof> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: acheronuk
<kenshiof> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: Trevinho
<mooninitv> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: caribou
<mooninitv> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: leosilva
<birikkilh> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: fnordahl
<ribeljv> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: DJones
<ribeljv> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: broder
<cerb1atru> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: lionel
<cerb1atru> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: djrakz
<trixtvg> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: marcoceppi
<trixtvg> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: nazgqe
<dewdroos> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: nacc
<dewdroos> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: sbeattie
<tr3m3nhs> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: kirb
<tr3m3nhs> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: Spydar007
<awmv> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: niedbalski
<awmv> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: LocutusOfBorg
<nikave> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: dkessel
<nikave> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: im_yourew
<evilheartdt> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: flz
<dairy> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: fnordahl
<Rayliaqm> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: dewdroos
<evilheartdt> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: seliniy
<gryzgv> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: hyperair
<gryzgv> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: dragan-s
<pipparozq> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: mdesl
<pipparozq> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: koralgzm
<crespihg> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: dgadomski
<crespihg> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: Trevinho
<uzguncx> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: apw
<caballerohw> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: xnox
<puqc> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: tr3m3nhs
<puqc> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: jamespage
<djrakz> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: rharper
<djrakz> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: Odd_Bloke
<uzguncx> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: Noskcaj
<mooninitv> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: crespihg
<mooninitv> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: toddy
<Energizjz> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: sgclark
<kenshiof> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: rharper
<kenshiof> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: jose
<Energizjz> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: arubislander
<d_o_c_torku> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: JanC
<d_o_c_torku> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: phunyguy
<n4n3tyj> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: WaVeR
<n4n3tyj> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: popey
<bastihaseka> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: ubottu
<powmw> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: nazgqe
<powmw> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: boruze
<snvl> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: meetingology
<gigmd> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: rharper
<gigmd> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: sosue
<c00kiel> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: sforshee
<c00kiel> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: retoaded
<haticlh> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: snvl
<acheronuk> !ops
<ubottu> Help! Seveas, Hobbsee, LjL, ompaulafk, Keybuk, mdz, sabdfl, janimo, ogra, mdke, dholbach, or jono
<cerb1atru> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: pavlushka
<ribeljv> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: dkessel
<ribeljv> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: snvl
<cerb1atru> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: bdmurray
<cloukq> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: mapreri
<trixtvg> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: seliniy
<dewdroos> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: el
<dewdroos> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: pavlushka
<trixtvg> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: pipparozq
<go|dfiaq> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: el
<tr3m3nhs> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: jds
<tr3m3nhs> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: sbeattie
<cerb1atru> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: lool
<cerb1atru> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: Tm_T
<awmv> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: gigmd
<awmv> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: KONSbz
<nikave> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: gryzgv
<nikave> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: Imalda
<ic4rih> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: darinms
<dairy> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: JanC
<pipparozq> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: toddy
<gardide> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: sakrecoer
<gardide> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: caballerohw
<pipparozq> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: redgat
<zoombd> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: cloukq
<zoombd> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: go|dfiaq
<c4rl3ttbx> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: zoombd
<KONSbz> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: Energizjz
<crespihg> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: dewdroos
<crespihg> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: phunyguy
<psotnioz> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: aisrael
<uzguncx> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: Trevinho
<uzguncx> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: wxl
<kenshiof> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: koralgzm
<kenshiof> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: dkessel
<psotnioz> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: ribeljv
<puqc> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: Croepha
<puqc> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: jjohansen
<djrakz> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: fnordahl
<djrakz> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: tsimonq2
<gigmd> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: cerb1atru
<gigmd> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: birikkilh
<n4n3tyj> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: mdeslaur
<n4n3tyj> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: sbeattie
<powmw> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: sladen
<powmw> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: nazgqe
<c00kiel> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: teward
<c00kiel> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: rbalint
<haticlh> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: [milidm
<haticlh> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: trixtvg
<ribeljv> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: cking
<ribeljv> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: ochosi
<chaoskimw> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: ifrxm
<chaoskimw> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: ifrxm
<cerb1atru> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: ubottu
<cerb1atru> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: ajmitch_
<YAyu> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: chaoskimw
<dewdroos> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: retoaded
<dewdroos> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: lamont
<trixtvg> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: redgat
<trixtvg> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: lionel
<go|dfiaq> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: ubot9
<tr3m3nhs> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: meetingology
<tr3m3nhs> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: xnox
<awmv> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: edwinksl
<awmv> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: ifrxm
<cloukq> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: inetpro
<nikave> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: dgadomski
<nikave> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: protuf
<Rayliaqm> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: n4n3tyj
<pipparozq> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: slangasek
<pipparozq> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: retoaded
<jloo> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: arosales
<jloo> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: gigmd
<KONSbz> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: ochosi
<psotnioz> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: lionel
<debiankl> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: leosilva
<zoombd> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: seliniy
<gardide> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: chrisccoulson
<uzguncx> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: maiczp
<psotnioz> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: Kamilion
<kenshiof> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: sumeoy
<djrakz> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: yofel
<crespihg> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: blackboxsw
<crespihg> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: wxl
<Energizjz> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: tinwood
<ankbeyefetx> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: afghanbaciu
<ankbeyefetx> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: FourDollars
<puqc> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: ogra_
<puqc> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: Croepha
<djrakz> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: koralgzm
<birikkilh> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: mooninitv
<birikkilh> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: cking
<little-oyo> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: jjohansen
<gigmd> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: cyphermox
<gigmd> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: seliniy
<n4n3tyj> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: lamont
<n4n3tyj> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: ogasawara_
<snvl> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: apw
<c00kiel> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: ogasawara_
<chaoskimw> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: c00kiel
<chaoskimw> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: crespihg
<ribeljv> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: pipparozq
<protuf> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: dkessel
<cerb1atru> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: abrody
<cerb1atru> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: mcs_
<kasur> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: dkessel
<kasur> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: apw
<tr3m3nhs> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: ogra_
<tr3m3nhs> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: redgat
<awmv> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: kamdw
<trixtvg> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: maiczp
<trixtvg> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: aisrael
<evilheartdt> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: sosue
<nikave> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: snvl
<nikave> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: marcoceppi
<dairy> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: dax
<dewdroos> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: n4n3tyj
<dewdroos> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: koralgzm
<gryzgv> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: Tribaal
<zoombd> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: broder
<zoombd> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: lionel
<psotnioz> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: pleia2
<psotnioz> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: jdstrand
<djrakz> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: ghostcube
<puqc> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: tinwood
<puqc> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: chrisccoulson
<umost> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: maiczp
<Energizjz> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: mapreri
<gardide> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: puqc
<ankbeyefetx> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: LocutusOfBorg
<ankbeyefetx> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: ejat
<birikkilh> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: mariogrip
<birikkilh> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: slangasek
<[milidm> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: chiluk
<[milidm> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: Odd_Bloke
<[milidm> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: LocutusOfBorg
<[milidm> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: slickymaster
<[milidm> ASK YOUR WONDERFUL OP EL WHY YOU ARE BEING FLOODED WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE: chaoskimw
<apw> or i could just assume you are a 5 year old, that seems most sensible
<ghostcube> idiots are coming
<ghostcube> :D
 * slangasek waves
 * infinity grunts
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Oct 26 15:00:44 2017 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<rbalint> o/
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e slangasek bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson rcj philroche Odd_Bloke tribaal fginther)
<slangasek> bdmurray rcj doko mwhudson tdaitx cyphermox slangasek Odd_Bloke fginther infinity xnox sil2100 rbalint tribaal philroche
<slangasek> and go!
<slangasek> bdmurray:
<sil2100> phew, still some time to prepare
<bdmurray> Here's a couple(?) of weeks worth of stuff
<bdmurray> bug triage of foundations-bugs
<bdmurray> rereview of ppc64-diag SRU / accepted with test case
<bdmurray> merge-o-matic MP review for jamespage
<bdmurray> updated merge-o-matic on merge.ubuntu.com
<bdmurray> reported gdm3 bug re external display LP: #1724017
<bdmurray> reported plymouth passphrase prompt bug LP: #1724020
<bdmurray> reported manual-tests bug LP: #1724046 re subiquity
<bdmurray> added subiquity stuff to iso.qa.ubuntu.com
<bdmurray> research into artful ubuntu-release-upgrader autopkgtest failure
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1723025 in gdm3 (Ubuntu) "duplicate for #1724017 no login screen when booting with an external monitor attached" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1723025
<bdmurray> research into / fixing of apport bug LP: #1723822
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1724911 in linux (Ubuntu Artful) "duplicate for #1724020 text VTs are unavailable on desktop after upgrade to Ubuntu 17.10" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1724911
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1724046 in Ubuntu Manual Tests "missing tests for subiquity (installer system for servers)" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1724046
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1723822 in apport (Ubuntu) "uncaught TypeError triggers ValueError" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1723822
<bdmurray> upstream apport switch to gio open LP: #1721948
<bdmurray> investigation into plymouth --ping bug reports
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1721948 in gvfs "gvfs-open/xdg-open shows message about 'gio open' which confuses user" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1721948
<bdmurray> updated meta-release files for Artful (17.10)
<bdmurray> uploaded 16.04 dpkg SRU for LP: #1601998
<bdmurray> reported gnome-shell(?) bug LP: #1726608
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1601998 in dpkg (Ubuntu Xenial) "/usr/bin/dpkg:6:do_internerr:deb_reassemble:process_archive:archivefiles:main" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1601998
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1726608 in console-setup (Ubuntu Zesty) "Alt+Arrow in gnome-shell unexpectedly switches VTs" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1726608
<bdmurray> upload of cracklib2 fixes (X, Z) for LP: #1681231
<bdmurray> SRU verification of cracklib-runtime SRU for the same bug
<bdmurray> investigation into unity removal blacklist LP: #1725605
<bdmurray> SRU verficiation of unity removal blacklist LP: #1725605
<bdmurray> special SRU review of distro-info-data LP: #1727355
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1681231 in apt (Ubuntu) "package cracklib-runtime 2.9.2-3 failed to install/upgrade: dependency problems - leaving triggers unprocessed" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1681231
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1725605 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Artful) "upgrade to 17.10 uncalculable without universe" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1725605
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1727355 in distro-info-data (Ubuntu Zesty) "Juju attempts to bootstrap bionic by default" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1727355
<bdmurray> manual retracing of recent apport LP retracer failures
<bdmurray> disable apport LP sending for artful LP: #1726647
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1726647 in apport (Ubuntu) "crash reports still sent to LP on artful" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1726647
<bdmurray> â done
<gaughen> o/
<bdmurray> rcj:
<slangasek> doko:
<doko> - valgrind SRU
<doko> - toolchain updates for bionic
<doko> - first transitions: icu, libcdio, boost
<doko> (done)
<slangasek> tdaitx:
<tdaitx> short week: sick on friday + monday morning
<tdaitx> openjdk 8 security update
<tdaitx> openjdk 7 security update backports
<tdaitx> (done)
<slangasek> cyphermox:
<cyphermox> - trying to avoid meetingitis today
<cyphermox> - preparing netplan 0.31 (UUID, breadcrumbs)
<cyphermox> - SRU verification for netplan 0.29 in X, Z
<cyphermox> - debugging minimized VM boot speed / boot success
<cyphermox> - jenkins mangling / rebuild
<cyphermox> - plan netplan
<cyphermox> - cat herding for shim-review
<cyphermox> - grub2 merge
<cyphermox> (done)
<slangasek>  * out yesterday
<slangasek>  * release!
<slangasek>  * bisecting my bionic kernel for LP: #1724911
<slangasek>  * helped with updating autopkgtest infra for bionic opening; improve the tooling to let autopkgtest runners be bootstrapped in parallel. https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-release/autopkgtest-cloud/+git/autopkgtest-cloud/+ref/series-bootstrapping
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1724911 in linux (Ubuntu Artful) "text VTs are unavailable on desktop after upgrade to Ubuntu 17.10" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1724911
<slangasek>  * start a single-threaded autopkgtest runner for arm64 to populate a test backlog, starting with xenial, while we wait for arm64 capacity in new scalingstack region
<slangasek>  * begin merges for bionic
<slangasek>   * play with git-ubuntu in anger as part of this
<slangasek>  * iteration on minimized images
<slangasek>  * many planning discussions for 18.04 cycle
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> Odd_Bloke:
<Odd_Bloke> * HIGHLIGHT: artful release last Thursday (and in to early this week for some partners)
<Odd_Bloke> * Cloud images vanguard for the week; triaging issues as they come up
<Odd_Bloke> * Working on cloud image boot speed reporting from our testing
<Odd_Bloke> * Out next week
<Odd_Bloke> (done)
<Odd_Bloke> fginther:
<fginther> * Continued library development to facilitate automated publication - final MPs
<fginther> now under review.
<fginther> * Updates to generate artful builder images.
<fginther> * Finished work on the lp-to-trello syncing tools.
<fginther> * Built and tested GCE images for a gce-compute-image-packages update and then threw away the work due to a newer package.
<fginther> (done)
<infinity> Last week:
<infinity>  - HIGHLIGHT: Ubuntu 17.10 released
<infinity> This week:
<infinity>  - HIGHLIGHT: Ubuntu 18.04 open for devel (once doko and xnox are done playing)
<infinity>  - Merges, merges.
<infinity>  - Lots of infra work for the opening checklist.
<infinity> (done)
<xnox> infinity, all play no work =)
<xnox> 17.10 released =)
<xnox> merged ocaml, boost for opening
<xnox> systemd SRUs shepparding
<xnox> systemd SRU release regressions
<xnox> working on WPA backport to xenial
<xnox> upgrade btrfs-progs
<xnox> done.
<xnox> ..
<Odd_Bloke> sil2100:
<sil2100> Uh oh
<sil2100> - Last week: 17.10 o/
<sil2100> - SRU reviews here and there
<sil2100> - ubuntu-image:
<sil2100>   * Debugging and resolving the xenial gadget tree build issues on autopkgtests
<sil2100>   * Merging in the classic support branch to master
<sil2100>   * Work on releasing 1.2, preparing manpage changes
<sil2100> - Sponsoring and SRUing new gce packages for Balint
<sil2100> - Preparing a new release of Google SDK, getting it into partner-proposed
<sil2100> - Work on the new uvp-monitor version
<sil2100> - Setting up my new laptop for work
<sil2100> (done)
<rbalint> * short weeks
<rbalint> * livecd-rootfs updates
<rbalint> * Hyper-V image generation and testing
<rbalint> * unattended-upgrades triaging & improvements
<rbalint> * sync requests for opengcs
<rbalint> * Hyper-V image testbed testing
<rbalint> * GCE new upstream LP: #1726810
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1726810 in gce-compute-image-packages (Ubuntu Artful) "Update google compute-image-packages to 20171019" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1726810
<rbalint> * things i can't report here
<rbalint> (done)
<Tribaal> * Found and tracked/filed an upstream kernel bug for nouveau on Artful (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1723619)
<Tribaal> * Testing on minimzed images (GCE/GKE)
<Tribaal> * Code reviews.
<Tribaal> * Vangarding tasks last week.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1723619 in Linux "Ubuntu Desktop ISO fails to boot with nouveau on a displayport" [Medium,Confirmed]
<Tribaal> (done)
<Tribaal> haha I mention a kernel bug and Leann rage quits :)
<slangasek> philroche is off
<slangasek> any questions on status?
<sil2100> No questions here
<slangasek> Tribaal: any chance that LP: #1723619 is a duplicate of LP: #1724911?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1723619 in Linux "Ubuntu Desktop ISO fails to boot with nouveau on a displayport" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1723619
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1724911 in linux (Ubuntu Artful) "text VTs are unavailable on desktop after upgrade to Ubuntu 17.10" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1724911
<Tribaal> slangasek: in my case the kernel doesn't boot at all
<slangasek> ah, you're getting an EDID error, so probably not the same
<Tribaal> right
<Tribaal> upstream seems to think it's a nouveau bug since they introduced a feature, and only on my hardware and newer cards
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<Tribaal> what's annoying is that it impacts the livecd since we boot with nouveau on nvidia by default (obviously)
<slangasek> not sure the standard incoming bug list serves us at this point in the cycle
<slangasek> bdmurray: is there anything we need to escalate here though?
<bdmurray> slangasek: I don't think so SRU wise
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else, then?
<doko> infinity: I prepared the opening email ....
<infinity> doko: Are we waiting on anything before I flip the switch, or shall we let 'er rip?
<doko> however, if xnox is sick, and I'm taking a swap day tomorrow, that opening won't be before monday
<infinity> doko: Oh, you still have things you want to do before we open?
<doko> yes, boost no-change uploads
<slangasek> looks like we're done
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Oct 26 15:29:58 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-10-26-15.00.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, all!
<tdaitx> thanks! o/
<sil2100> Thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-10-22
<rbasak> o/
<ddstreet> mtg happening today or not?
<rbasak> Let's see if other DMB members arrive.
<rbasak> We need four.
<cyphermox> I'm here
<cyphermox> sorry
<cyphermox> jbicha and slashd already mentioned they were likely not available
<cyphermox> micahg might be late
<rbasak> I guess we didn't get quorum this week then. Sorry. I see you've already scheduled for the next meeting - thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-10-25
<sil2100> o/
<rbalint> o/
<philroche> \o
<aleks_bogdanov> o/
<philroche> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Oct 25 15:02:24 2018 UTC.  The chair is philroche. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<philroche> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<philroche> echo $(shuf -e vorlon bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson rcj philroche Odd_Bloke juliank fginther cshep tobijk  aleks_bogdanov)
<philroche> tobijk fginther vorlon mwhudson xnox juliank infinity cyphermox Odd_Bloke doko aleks_bogdanov tdaitx sil2100 cshep philroche rbalint bdmurray rcj
<tobikoch> * Parallelizing image builds still ongoing.
<tobikoch> (done)
<tobikoch> fginther:
<fginther> * Lots of reviews
<fginther> * Resolve a couple of partner cases
<fginther> â done
<fginther> vorlon:
<fginther> xnox:
<xnox> * Refreshing markshuttleworth.com for new release name
<xnox> * Uploading SRUs
<xnox> * Preparing fixes from release sprint ideas re- signing, bootloaders, images theme, etc.
<xnox> done.
<philroche> juliank is OoO
<philroche> infinity is not present
<philroche> cyphermox:
<cyphermox> - design discussion on systemd PR #9956
<cyphermox> - netplan SRUs to fix rename issues in current release/SRU
<cyphermox> - implement better error reporting in netplan
<cyphermox> - various netplan.io PR merges
<cyphermox> - gnu-efi SRU verification: verifying syslinux rebuild
<cyphermox> - trusty shim-signed fix for xz
<cyphermox> (done)
<philroche> Odd_Bloke is at product sprint
<philroche> doko:
<doko> yeah, somebody harassing me on -release ;p
<doko> - prepared Python3 SRU updates
<doko> - prepare packages for d-series opening
<doko> - started packaging GCC 9
<doko> (done)
<xnox> doko, lol
<philroche> aleks_bogdanov:
<xnox> doko, you said you were bored! hence the harassing =)
<aleks_bogdanov> * partner work all week
<aleks_bogdanov> done
<aleks_bogdanov> tdaitx:
<tdaitx> * openjdk security update
<tdaitx>   - packaged, tested, and uploaded openjdk-11, openjdk-10, and openjdk-8 to the security team
<tdaitx>   - rebased openjdk-11 on debian's openjdk 11.0.1
<tdaitx>   - added autopkgtests to openjdk-11
<tdaitx>   - applied 11.0.1 patches to openjdk-10
<tdaitx>   - applied 8u191 patches to openjdk-8
<tdaitx>   - reviewing openjdk-8 jtreg failures in cosmic
<tdaitx>   - backporting of 8u191 to openjdk-7 (ongoing)
<tdaitx> * openjdk-11 migration in cosmic:
<tdaitx>   - junit fix
<tdaitx>   - investigating LP: #1796982 and Debian 911742
<tdaitx> * updated my coredev application
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1796982 in openjdk-lts (Ubuntu Cosmic) "[Regression] AArch64: log and cos/sin intrinsics give incorrect results" [Critical,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1796982
<ubottu> Debian bug 911742 in openjdk-10-jdk "openjdk-10-jdk: breaks maven-surefire-plugin" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/911742
<tdaitx> (done)
<tdaitx> sil2100:
<sil2100> Aaaaa, it's me already
<sil2100> Too much going on
<sil2100> - Release week last week - we released cosmic!
<sil2100> - SRU reviews and releases
<sil2100> - Kernel SRU reviews
<sil2100> - core18:
<sil2100>   * Prepared release-task tracking document
<sil2100>   * Lots of coordination between testing and snap releases
<sil2100>   * Promoting core18 to stable, promoting gadget snaps to stable
<sil2100>   * Preparing jenkins jobs for snap auto-rebuilds on archive/base changes
<sil2100>   * Tweaks to the auto-rebuild tooling
<sil2100>   * Requesting auto-testin from core18 beta
<sil2100> - Looking into MIRing ubuntu-image in xenial
<sil2100> - Paperwork for SRUing livecd-rootfs to xenial with the ubuntu-image changes
<sil2100> - Some work on the core image purging on cdimage
<sil2100> (done)
<philroche> cshep==platonical
<philroche> platonical:
<philroche> * Cosmic Cloud images GA
<philroche> * Cloud image build system vanguard
<philroche> (done)
<rbalint> (short week due to national holidays)
<philroche> rbalint:
<rbalint> * triaged LP: #1693948
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1693948 in init-system-helpers (Ubuntu Xenial) "useless diagnostics in dpkg.log from journalctl due to ellipses" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1693948
<rbalint> * verified all pending SRU fixes for unattended-upgrades and update-manager
<rbalint> * Added support for getting release version by codename in the distro-info Perl and Python API (Debian's #896640)
<rbalint> * unattended-upgrades bugs gardening and finally fixing InstallOnShutdown (pending review)
<rbalint> (done)
<rcj> bdmurray:
<bdmurray> This covers a bit of time
<bdmurray> merged my apport branch which uses a contents map instead of searching .gz file (LP: #1370230)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1370230 in Apport "apport-retrace has become slower" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1370230
<bdmurray> updated apport on Launchpad retracer and ET retracers with the fix for LP: #1370230
<bdmurray> submitted RT re removing retracer units since they are faster now
<bdmurray> submitted RT regarding update of daisy-retracer charm for the above
<bdmurray> discovered unique-users-daily-update wasn't running and fixed it
<bdmurray> ran backfil job for unique-users-daily-update to fix the main graph
<bdmurray> modified retracer-cache-restart cronjob not to run with -f when unneeded
<bdmurray> modified u-r-u upload re: blocking upgrades based on reviewer feedback
<bdmurray> uploaded u-r-u fix for LP: #1796940
<bdmurray> SRU verification of ubuntu-release-upgrader bug LP: #1797209 and LP: #1796940
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1796940 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "ubuntu-release-upgrader-core missing a dependency" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1796940
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1797209 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Xenial) "do-release-upgrade should block release upgrades in some circumstances" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1797209
<bdmurray> SRU verification of LP: #1786486 for juliank
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1786486 in fpc (Debian) "upgrade from 16.04 to 18.04 uncalculatable due to fpc packages" [Unknown,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1786486
<bdmurray> uploaded apport to cosmic which disables crash reporting to Launchpad
<bdmurray> reported bug re: friendly-recovery and u-r-u LP: #1799839
<bdmurray> migration of KPI data from prometheus to influxdb
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1799839 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "not possible to use "Repair broken packages"" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1799839
<bdmurray> â done
<rcj> rcj:
<rcj> * Improved image build request uniqueness
<rcj> * A number of design reviews on which I was delinquent
<rcj> * cloud image and automation development
<rcj> ð
<fginther> rcj, the launchpad-buildd bug to gather artifacts after a build has been fix-committed: https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad-buildd/+bug/1795877
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1795877 in launchpad-buildd "livefs builds fail without logs (possibly due to multiple large artifacts)" [High,Fix committed]
<fginther> rcj, do you know if we need to do anything to use this?
<xnox> bdmurray, hm the friendly-recovery one.... is that something to fix in friendly-recovery or in the ubuntu-release-upgrader?
<juliank> Thanks bdmurray
<bdmurray> xnox: ubuntu-release-upgrader
<xnox> bdmurray, ack
<philroche> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<fginther> rcj, ah, our most recent 18.10 base build indicates it is still using version 164, which doesn't have this change yet
<fginther> (we need 165)
<fginther> :sad face:
<rcj> I'll follow up with launchpad to understand when production will get the update
<philroche> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Oct 25 15:24:37 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-10-25-15.02.moin.txt
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-10-21
<sil2100> o/
<cyphermox> o/
<cyphermox> #startmeeting Developer Membership Board
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Oct 21 15:00:38 2019 UTC.  The chair is cyphermox. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<cyphermox> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<cyphermox> tsimonq2 to better document what we expect applicants to know
<cyphermox> oh, and I was forgetting
<cyphermox> #votesrequired 4
<meetingology> votes now need 4 to be passed
<cyphermox> #voters cyphermox slashd rbasak sil2100 tsimonq2 jbicha micahg
<meetingology> Warning: Nick not in channel: jbicha
<meetingology> Warning: Nick not in channel: micahg
<meetingology> Current voters: cyphermox jbicha micahg rbasak sil2100 slashd tsimonq2
<cyphermox> tsimonq2: you around?
<slashd> o/
<sil2100> uh oh
<cyphermox> ok; carrying over I guess
<sil2100> Yeah
<cyphermox> slashd to make ACL changes for xtrusia's successful contributing developer application
<cyphermox> reportedly done
<slashd> it is indeed done ^
<cyphermox> slashd to announce xtrusia's successful contributing developer application (done)
<cyphermox> cool, so all done; I'll update the agenda afterwards
<sil2100> \o/
<marcustomlinson> :(
<cyphermox> Expiry policy for flavor developer team membership
<cyphermox> oops
<cyphermox> marcustomlinson: what's wrong?
<marcustomlinson> won't meet quorum today?
<cyphermox> so far we're not quorate, no
<cyphermox> but there's a chance
<cyphermox> #topic Expiry policy for flavor developer team membership
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Expiry policy for flavor developer team membership
<sil2100> Well, so we have votes from Robie
<sil2100> So we can vote I think
<cyphermox> ah, good
<marcustomlinson> ah I see, I misread "cool, so all done"
<cyphermox> well, postpone expiry though?
<slashd> cyphermox, sil2100 : we are good to proceed with vote today
<cyphermox> yes okay
<cyphermox> but not quorate to discuss expiry policy?
<slashd> right
<sil2100> cyphermox: yeah, let's postpone the expiry
<cyphermox> and also, is there much to discuss or is it just implementing
<cyphermox> I think it's actually just implementing
<cyphermox> I'll take an action to actually start looking into a report for this at the very least
<cyphermox> #action cyphermox to build report for expiry from dev teams
<meetingology> ACTION: cyphermox to build report for expiry from dev teams
<cyphermox> #topic DMB elections for the expired 2 members
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: DMB elections for the expired 2 members
<cyphermox> so; me and jbicha had expired, because technically our term is over
<cyphermox> but I've asked the TB to reinstate us so we could be useful long enough to get voting done
<cyphermox> any one of us familiar enough with condorcet to set this up?
<cyphermox> otherwise I'll ask Laney for how to do it ^
<cyphermox> I'll take that as a no ;)
<cyphermox> #action cyphermox to setup nominations, voting for new DMB members
<meetingology> ACTION: cyphermox to setup nominations, voting for new DMB members
<cyphermox> #topic Package Set/Per Package Uploader Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Package Set/Per Package Uploader Applications
<cyphermox> #subtopic GunnarHj ibus-avro PPU
<cyphermox> GunnarHj doesn't seem to be around
<sil2100> hmm
<sil2100> Since it's just addition to the PPU, should we maybe just do it?
<sil2100> I can't remember the procedures for this
<cyphermox> if it's consistent, if it was a pacakgeset
<cyphermox> but this is PPU
<cyphermox> depends on whether he can upload things to Debian
<cyphermox> I think we at least need more than just an email
<Laney> "This way, any DMB member may update the glob expansions for Gunnar (by relying on their existing definition) without needing to refer to the full DMB for agreement or the TB to make the change. "
<Laney> since I got highlighted :-)
<sil2100> Laney: ;)
<cyphermox> ah, I didn't remember this one ;)
<cyphermox> Laney: thanks!
<sil2100> \o/
<cyphermox> #agreed
<cyphermox> so, JFDI
<cyphermox> sil2100: you want to do the honours?
<sil2100> cyphermox: sure o/
<cyphermox> cool
<cyphermox> #action sil2100 to update PPU for Gunnar, adding ibus-avro
<meetingology> ACTION: sil2100 to update PPU for Gunnar, adding ibus-avro
<sil2100> wheee
<cyphermox> #subtopic marcustomlinson - LibreOffice PPU
<cyphermox> marcustomlinson: hey hey
<marcustomlinson> o/
<cyphermox> marcustomlinson: Would you like to summarize why you're here today, and what your work has been on Ubuntu? We do have the wiki page but it's nice to hear anyway :)
<marcustomlinson> sure, Iâve been contributing to Ubuntu since late 2013
<marcustomlinson> much of the first 4 years was Unity heavy
<marcustomlinson> in the last year I've been deeply involved in snap integration on Desktop and LibreOffice
<marcustomlinson> Since starting on Libreoffice we've gone from over 800 open bugs to under 400 :)
<marcustomlinson> and I've prepared probably around 15 or so releases
<marcustomlinson> that's the short version :)
<cyphermox> awesome :)
<cyphermox> sil2100: rbasak: slashd: tsimonq2: any questions for marcustomlinson ?
<marcustomlinson> oh I see I've done 26 releases ;)
<slashd> marcustomlinson, at which point in the devel release you stop introducing new features ?
<marcustomlinson> feature freeze
<slashd> and how do you know when is the specific date ?
<marcustomlinson> Good question, I trust my team calendar at the mo
<slashd> F is not out yet, by here's the one for eoan: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EoanErmine/ReleaseSchedule
<marcustomlinson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EoanErmine/ReleaseSchedule
<marcustomlinson> ah too slow
<slashd> ;p
<sil2100> marcustomlinson: let's say you uploaded a new libreoffice to focal but it seems to be stuck in -proposed - what and where would you look for reasons 'why'?
<sil2100> How would you proceed?
<marcustomlinson> I'd ping a vanguard on #ubuntu-release
<sil2100> What vanguard would you ping?
<sil2100> And isn't there something you could investigate by yourself?
<marcustomlinson> I usually use the list here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<marcustomlinson> depending on day
<slashd> marcustomlinson, before pinging the vanguard, what can be done by yourself ?
<sil2100> marcustomlinson: this is a focal upload, so for the development release - the SRU team doesn't really take care of the devel release ;)
<marcustomlinson> slashd: to be honest I don't know
<sil2100> marcustomlinson: what about update_excuses?
<marcustomlinson> ah ok
<sil2100> marcustomlinson: did you have any experience with update_excuses so far?
<marcustomlinson> right, I always run all my autopkgtests before upload, but yes how it effects others
<marcustomlinson> sil2100: yes https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses.html#nspr
<marcustomlinson> I fixed a funk s390x issue recently in fact
<cyphermox> <3
<marcustomlinson> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libreoffice/+bug/1832360
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1832360 in libreoffice (Ubuntu) "autopkgtests flaky on s390x" [Medium,Fix released]
<sil2100> marcustomlinson: ok, just remember to always make sure to look at update_excuses for the uploads you make
<sil2100> Anyway, I have no other questions
<marcustomlinson> sil2100: indeed, brain fart
<slashd> no more questions as well
<cyphermox> okay
<cyphermox> #vote marcustomlinson  to gain Per-package upload rights for libreoffice
<meetingology> Please vote on: marcustomlinson  to gain Per-package upload rights for libreoffice
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<cyphermox> humm
<cyphermox> actually, is that wrong? because there are some satellite packages to libreoffice?
<marcustomlinson> such as? libreoffice-l10n?
<slashd> cyphermox, should we also vote for contribution developer ? I see 2 application from marcustomlinson
<slashd> ppu + contrib developer
<cyphermox> contrib developer is irrelevant if this vote passes :)
<cyphermox> marcustomlinson: yes, libreoffice-l10n
<marcustomlinson> libreoffice-l10n at least is not a thing anymore from Eoan (thanks to me - he says hinting at more votes :P)
<cyphermox> and IIRC some of your predecessors had once requested PPU for some other things
<marcustomlinson> but yes for SRUs from D back I'll need that
<cyphermox> ah, cool
<cyphermox> well, let's vote on libreoffice first, and then we can (maybe) vote on adding l10n, if the rest of the board agrees to it
<cyphermox> voting is already open; please cast your votes :)
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<slashd> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from slashd
<slashd> sil2100, ?
<sil2100> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from sil2100
<sil2100> (apologies, got pulled into a meeting)
<slashd> We also got an anticipated vote from rbasak (+1)
<cyphermox> that's a +4
<marcustomlinson> \o/
<cyphermox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: marcustomlinson  to gain Per-package upload rights for libreoffice
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion denied
<marcustomlinson> XD
<cyphermox> #agreed Motion carried; meetingology is drunk
<slashd> Congrats marcustomlinson !
<cyphermox> Now; why I said that contributing dev is irrelevant is because all it really gives you is Ubuntu Membership, which you get by being PPU unless you really didn't qualify
<marcustomlinson> will I be added to ubuntu-developer-members?
<cyphermox> and a little wrench badge on Launchpad
<cyphermox> yep
<cyphermox> well
<cyphermox> that was my point
<cyphermox> you'd be added to ~ubuntu-dev, which gets you membership
<slashd> ok
<marcustomlinson> cool :)
<cyphermox> the only thing the other team gives you is the wrench badge
<cyphermox> I'm not opposed to adding that too if you really care ;)
<marcustomlinson> I like badges
<marcustomlinson> :D
<cyphermox> but really, it's just one more thing to renew membership for
<cyphermox> ok
<cyphermox> volunteers to do the team additions?
<slashd> cyphermox, I'll do it
<cyphermox> ~ubuntu-dev; and ~ubuntu-developer-members
<marcustomlinson> thanks guys
<RikMills> marcustomlinson: congrats
<cyphermox> I'm on purpose skipping voting on Contributing Developer, because as stated, marcustomlinson gets membership by having PPU rights.
<cyphermox> marcustomlinson: congrats!
<cyphermox> #topic MOTU Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: MOTU Applications
<marcustomlinson> sorry to budge in, libreoffice-l10n?
<cyphermox> oh, right
<cyphermox> sil2100: slashd: do you care? do you think this really must be voted on?
<slashd> I'm good with it
<sil2100> +1 on that
<cyphermox> okay then
<cyphermox> #agreed Adding libreoffice-l10n to PPU for marcustomlinson as well, since it's a straightforward l10n satellite package to libreoffice
<marcustomlinson> awesome thanks
<cyphermox> oh, who does ACL? slashd you'll do it with teams?
<cyphermox> we might need TB help
<cyphermox> (I mean, alongside updating teams in LP)
<cyphermox> or I can deal with the ACL changes
<slashd> cyphermox, ok I'll deal with the team add
<cyphermox> #action slashd to add marcustomlinson to the right LP teams
<meetingology> ACTION: slashd to add marcustomlinson to the right LP teams
<cyphermox> #action cyphermox to update PPU for marcustomlinson, adding libreoffice and libreoffice-l10n
<meetingology> ACTION: cyphermox to update PPU for marcustomlinson, adding libreoffice and libreoffice-l10n
<cyphermox> okay; am I forgetting anything before we move on to the other requests?
<cyphermox> does everyone still have the time so we can vote?
<slashd> yeah I do
<slashd> let's take benefit of the quorum to do it
<cyphermox> yup
<cyphermox> #subtopic rafaeldtinoco - MOTU and Ubuntu Server Developer
<rafaeldtinoco> o/
<cyphermox> I'm a bit surprised that Ubuntu Server isn't a properly delegated team
<cpaelzer> cyphermox: I can only say this is as it was since before my time here and so far there never was a request/need to change it
<cpaelzer> all of us went through DMB to get server upload rights and somewhen later to core-dev
<cyphermox> well, I don't see any indication the DMB has rights to put people in ~ubuntu-server anyway
<cpaelzer> when rbasak is available on another day you might ask about the history of it
<cyphermox> oh, then upload rights wouldn't be synced with team though
<cpaelzer> but it shouldn't block the discussion of rafaeldtinoco today
<cyphermox> no, no, just trying to understand what we need to be voting for.
<Laney> It's ~ubuntu-server-dev
<sil2100> I guess this is just about the MOTU permissions here
<rafaeldtinoco> cyphermox: based on feedback - endorsements - I got from application, I'd like to to know if core-dev is also a possibility.
<cyphermox> well, rbasak probably only gave his vote formally for motu, not core-dev
<cyphermox> I wouldn't want to assume he's +1 on that, even though he might be
<sil2100> I think Robie said he had questions in case it was a core dev application
<cyphermox> okay
<cyphermox> then yeah, we wouldn't be quorate to vote for core-dev
<rafaeldtinoco> sounds good to me
<cyphermox> server or MOTU first?
<cyphermox> #vote rafaeldtinoco to gain MOTU upload rights
<meetingology> Please vote on: rafaeldtinoco to gain MOTU upload rights
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<slashd> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from slashd
<cyphermox> Also, if there are questions, don't hesitate
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<sil2100> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from sil2100
<cyphermox> what vote did rbasak leave us?
<slashd> +1 from rbasak
<meetingology> +1 from rbasak received from slashd
<rafaeldtinoco> \o/
<cyphermox> alright; #envote
<cyphermox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: rafaeldtinoco to gain MOTU upload rights
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion denied
<cyphermox> #agreed Motion carried; rbasak left a vote +1
<cyphermox> meetingology: keep up.
<cyphermox> rafaeldtinoco: congrats
<RikMills> rafaeldtinoco: congratulations :)
<rafaeldtinoco> thx a lot!
<cyphermox> let's vote for Server now
<cyphermox> #vote rafaeldtinoco to gain Ubuntu Server upload rights
<meetingology> Please vote on: rafaeldtinoco to gain Ubuntu Server upload rights
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<slashd> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from slashd
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<sil2100> +1 (seeing that ~4 people from server endorsed his application, makes sense!)
<meetingology> +1 (seeing that ~4 people from server endorsed his application, makes sense!) received from sil2100
<slashd> +1 from rbasak
<meetingology> +1 from rbasak received from slashd
<cyphermox> yup
<rafaeldtinoco> \o/
<cyphermox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: rafaeldtinoco to gain Ubuntu Server upload rights
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion denied
<cyphermox> #agreed motion carried!
<slashd> Congrats rafaeldtinoco
<sil2100> ;)
<rafaeldtinoco> thank you very much ! ill keep up with the work =)
<cyphermox> congrats rafaeldtinoco
<sil2100> rafaeldtinoco: congrats! Keep up the good work!
<rafaeldtinoco> thx!
<cyphermox> okay, volunteers to do team additions then?
<slashd> cyphermox, I'll do it
<cyphermox> #action  slashd to add rafaeldtinoco  to ~ubuntu-server-dev and ~motu
<meetingology> ACTION: slashd to add rafaeldtinoco  to ~ubuntu-server-dev and ~motu
<cyphermox> #topic Outstanding mailing list requests to assign
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Outstanding mailing list requests to assign
<cyphermox> are there any?
<cyphermox> looks like negative
<cyphermox> #topic Select a chair for the next meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Select a chair for the next meeting
<cyphermox> I nominate...
<cyphermox> rbasak; he's not around to say no! ;)
<cyphermox> (actually, trying to stick to the rotation)
<cyphermox> #topic Any other business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Any other business
<cyphermox> anything else?
<cyphermox> I guess not
<slashd> I think we are good
<cyphermox> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Oct 21 16:15:00 2019 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2019/ubuntu-meeting.2019-10-21-15.00.moin.txt
<cyphermox> thanks everyone!
<marcustomlinson> thanks!
<slashd> \o
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-10-22
<cpaelzer> cyphermox: didrocks: jamespage: doko: I'll miss MIR meeting today but there is nothing special from the Server team this week to contribute from me
<didrocks> cpaelzer: ack, no worry
<doko> yes, I think we can skip the meeting
<didrocks> same
<joeubuntu> hey all
<didrocks> hey joeubuntu, cpaelzer isn't around, but nothing special discuss, doko and I think we can skip the meeting, anything from your side?
<joeubuntu> fine by me.
<joeubuntu> thanks for the update didrocks . have a great day.
<didrocks> thanks, you too!
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-10-24
<sil2100> o/
<cyphermox> o/
<rbalint> o/
<infinity> \o
<waveform> o/
<bdmurray> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Oct 24 15:02:16 2019 UTC.  The chair is bdmurray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<bdmurray> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<bdmurray> doko mwhudson cyphermox infinity bdmurray xnox vorlon sil2100 tdaitx rbalint waveform
<bdmurray> doko:
<doko> * archive opening & python3.8
<doko> (done)
<xnox> nice
<bdmurray> cyphermox:
<cyphermox> - shim reviews: Oracle, CentOS, zkey (in progress)
<cyphermox> - submitted our own new shim for review
<cyphermox> - discussing shim reviewing processes with Microsoft, shim-review community
<cyphermox> - preparing unicode-data SRUs
<cyphermox> - got context back from Julian about grub chainloading of bootctl-based binaries
<cyphermox> - spec updates for UC20 plugin and openvswitch
<cyphermox> - more debugging on reports of Windows chainloading issues; so far unable to reproduce and reports are rather of broken/misinstalled systems for a variety of reasons :(
<cyphermox> - finished removing net-tools from seeds; left with figuring out the future of ubuntu-core-libs to complete the removal of net-tools in favor of iproute2
<cyphermox> - filed bugs for files in /etc that don't belong there (UC20)
<cyphermox> - NM plugin work
<cyphermox> (done)
<infinity>  * Released the Ermines.
<infinity>  * Opened Focal in LP, snakefruit, cdimage, etc.
<infinity>  * Fixed a bnuch of FTBFS bugs to move perl along.
<infinity>  * Working on the last bits of the perl transition.
<infinity> (done)
<bdmurray> release sprint!
<bdmurray> manager stuff
<bdmurray> xnox:
<xnox> Uploaded casper with UUID validation fix for netboot and linux overlay bug reproducer. TODO investigate/fix autopkgtest
<xnox> Working on cleaning up pc-amd64-gadget snap, and building it for the core20
<xnox> Working with snapcraft team to get core20 into snapcraft (committed)
<xnox> Filed lp bug against lp to get core20 enabled
<xnox> Roundtrip gcc-9 bumping ISA to z13 with IBM w.r.t. Testsuite regression analysis. They will work on improving it, and we are good to bump ISA to z13
<xnox> Send linux config change patch to bump ISA to z13
<xnox> Uploaded s390-tools SRU to bionic to fix two bugs
<xnox> Uploaded opencryptoki
<xnox> Trianging numpy s390x failure with doko & mwhudson
<xnox> done
<cyphermox> xnox: casper uuid validation fix?
 * cyphermox goes to look at the diff instead
<vorlon>  * happy release!
<vorlon>  * focusing on the fantastic fossa
<vorlon>  * helping burn down the autopkgtest regressions to get perl 5.30 in for archive opening
<vorlon>  * roadmap for 20.04
<vorlon>  * debugging various idiosyncratic issues on my laptop after upgrade to eoan
<vorlon> (done)
<xnox> cyphermox:  so, when doing netmount uuid was not checked to match; only when mounting usb sticks / cdrom / partitions it was checked.
<bdmurray> xnox: re s390-tools SRU does it need a review / queue jump?
<sil2100> - Release sprinting last week
<sil2100> - Poking peeps for some focal-related stuffs that needed to be done
<sil2100> - SRU reviews and releases
<sil2100> - Kernel reviews
<sil2100> - Looking through multiverse package licenses
<cyphermox> ahhh
<sil2100> - Meeting with snapd guys regarding uc20 ubuntu-image changes
<sil2100> - Modifying the uc20 ubuntu-image support branch with some additional changes, fixing merge conflicts
<sil2100>   * Will be landing this after a formal ACK from Michael on the spec
<sil2100> - Backporting various missing livecd-rootfs bits to bionic
<sil2100> - Almost finished the sanity-report for langpack sanity testing
<sil2100> - Modified core promotion scripts to take the new snapd-team core18 edge testing into consideration
<sil2100> - Poking around regarding the linux-hwe FTBFS against the security-enabled gcc-5 no-change-rebuild
<sil2100> - DMB meeting
<sil2100> - Discussing ESM autopkgtest feasibility
<sil2100> (done)
<xnox> bdmurray:  IBM will appreciate if it is bumped
<tdaitx> * OpenJDK 8 & 11 security update
<tdaitx>   - package & upload for Xenial (8 only), Bionic, Disco, and Eoan
<tdaitx>   - no regressions found on all archs/releases
<tdaitx> * whoopsie & apport security fixes
<tdaitx>   - backports to xenial, bionic, disco
<tdaitx>   - testing each vulnerability (and retesting eoan + focal after release)
<tdaitx> Other:
<tdaitx> - need to upgrade to focal
<tdaitx> (done)
<rbalint> (short week after release week)
<rbalint> * Debian uploads: p8-platform, unattended-upgrades 1.15
<rbalint> * updated wslu to 2.3.2, also adding autopkgtest
<bdmurray> Is there somebody who can review s390-tools then?
<rbalint> * tested Eoan install, filed LP: #184852
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 184852 in initramfs-tools (Ubuntu) ""dpkg-reconfigure --all" invokes update-initramfs(8) multiple times" [Wishlist,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/184852
<rbalint> * unattended-upgrades fixes and SRUs
<rbalint> * libevent transition releated fixes
<rbalint> * uploaded systemd 243-2ubuntu1, waiting for archive opening
<rbalint> (done)
<waveform> * Reported / worked on Pi 3A+ boot issue; LP: #1848247
<waveform> * Reported / worked on Pi 4 arm64 USB issue; LP: #1848790
<waveform> * Worked on SRUs for Pi 4 boot support on Bionic:
<waveform> - flash-kernel (package prepped, tested)
<waveform> - u-boot-rpi (ongoing)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1848247 in linux-firmware-raspi2 (Ubuntu) "3A+ boot failure on Eoan" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1848247
<waveform> - linux-firmware-raspi2 (package prepped, testing ongoing)
<waveform> - kernel (awaiting)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1848790 in linux-raspi2 (Ubuntu) "USB not working under arm64 on Pi4" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1848790
<waveform> - base image (investigating)
<waveform> * Updated RaspberryPi wiki page with Eoan details
<waveform> (done)
<bdmurray> Any questions regarding status?
<bdmurray> sil2100: Can you review s390-tools?
<sil2100> bdmurray: sure
<bdmurray> sil2100: thanks
<sil2100> bdmurray: which series? d/b?
<sil2100> Ah, b
<bdmurray> xnox: ^^
<sil2100> Will do that during the meeting
<bdmurray> #topic Release incoming bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Release incoming bugs
<xnox> sil2100:  b for one d/e/f for another
<xnox> (s390-tools & opencryptoki respectevly)
<bdmurray> seb128: Do you have any idea on how to separate foundations ubiquity bugs from desktop ones? e.g. bug 1847719.
<ubottu> bug 1847719 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "zfs "Write to change disks" message prints that an ext4 partition will be created" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1847719
<bdmurray> bug 1844805 seems worth fixing and is rather easy
<ubottu> bug 1844805 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "virtualbox, virtualbox-dkms, virtualbox-qt fail during upgrade from 19.04 to 19.10" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1844805
<seb128> bdmurray, tagging I guess?
<bdmurray> seb128: zfs-something-something
<infinity> I mean, it's telling the truth.  It creates an ext4 partition, then deletes it. :P
<xnox> "foundations-not-it" and "desktop-not-it"
<sil2100> bdmurray: I could take a look at tackling the u-r-u one
<infinity> I'm still curious about why it doesn't use partman-zfs.
<bdmurray> sil2100: great, I guess you knew I was gonna volunteer you
<xnox> yeah, cause then it could have "reorganize zfs pools" rather than "transform ext4"
<seb128> bdmurray, 'zfs' seems to exist as a tag/being used today
<bdmurray> sil2100: because its do-release-upgrade it will need SRU'ing to disco - its not part of the tarball
<sil2100> hm, ok
<sil2100> Is this carded already? ;)
<bdmurray> doko: have you seen bug 1848211?
<ubottu> bug 1848211 in valgrind (Ubuntu) "valgrind fails to use debug symbols from glib/gtk" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1848211
<xnox> ubiquity could re-wrtie debconf template to say zfs, although ext4 is used =)
<bdmurray> sil2100: I will card it and give it to you
<sil2100> bdmurray: thanks!
<bdmurray> seb128: let's just use zfs then
<bdmurray> Okay, we will card the valgrind issue and get it worked on.
<bdmurray> Is there anybody interested in learning more about apport and whoopsie?
<bdmurray> bug 1848064
<ubottu> bug 1848064 in apport (Ubuntu) "/usr/share/apport/whoopsie-upload-all:PermissionError:/usr/share/apport/whoopsie-upload-all@168:collect_info:process_report" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1848064
<bdmurray> I've moved to rls-ee-incoming
<bdmurray> waveform: ^?
<waveform> bdmurray, I can take a look
<bdmurray> waveform: okay, I'm happy to help if you want to meet later today.
<bdmurray> cyphermox: Since we've some experience culling bug lists - would you mind helping me with rls-ee?
<bdmurray> rls-bb has bug 1848880
<ubottu> bug 1848880 in debian-installer (Ubuntu) "Server 18.04.3 OEM Install option doesn't work" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1848880
<bdmurray> Is there somebody who can test that to see if it is accurate?
<bdmurray> Specifically "oem-config-prepare" not being found
<bdmurray> cyphermox: ^?
<cyphermox> sure
<cyphermox> oem-config-prepare not found is... weird
<bdmurray> seb128: it's rls-x-incoming. ;-) I went to rls-xx-incoming report so made the same mistake!
<bdmurray> bug 1849004
<ubottu> bug 1849004 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "update-manager stop to load update descriptions" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1849004
<seb128> bdmurray, ahah, thx for pointing it out!
<bdmurray> it looks like there might even be a fix in that update-manager bug
<bdmurray> I'll go ahead and card that and we can sort it out later.
<bdmurray> #topic Team proposed-migration report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Team proposed-migration report
<bdmurray> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html#foundations-bugs
<bdmurray> We've agreed to just start tackling the issues on that list.
<bdmurray> And we'll coordinate the things on which we are working in #ubuntu-devel.
<cyphermox> not -release?
<bdmurray> cyphermox: I think #ubuntu-devel has more people on it.
<cyphermox> ack
<rbalint> if something is to be stuck in -proposed longer you can record your observation in a but and mark it with 'update-excuse' tag
<cyphermox> yup :)
<rbalint> bugg
<sil2100> rbalint: let's get that documented somewhere for people to easily access, maybe the promosed-migration wiki page?
<bdmurray> and then what happens with 'update-excuse' does it show up on the report?
<cyphermox> rbalint: that would be a good blog post
<cyphermox> (and we can retweet and whatnot ;)
<rbalint> bugs with 'update-excuse' show up on update_excuses.html
<rbalint> cyphermox, thanks, will write that post
<bdmurray> There also used to be "Public Service Announcement" emails to ubuntu-devel
<cyphermox> cool
<bdmurray> I think those would be good to bring back.
<cyphermox> discourse topic on coordinating proposed work?
<bdmurray> cyphermox: a discourse topic on what?
<cyphermox> I'm suggesting using a discourse topic on meta-discussing how to prioritize
<vorlon> no thank you
<cyphermox> ie: is there more we can do that using a bug tag? any other tech tools we can build to help
<cyphermox> and discourse topic is interchangeable with mailing list thread.
<rbalint> cyphermox, changing nick to name_working_on_foo :-)
<cyphermox> yuck
<bdmurray> I think before solving a problem we should keep track of how often the problem happens.
<vorlon> discourse is way too heavy weight, the state of -proposed changes hourly
<sil2100> I'd still like it added to the wiki page
<cyphermox> I'm specifically not talking about the coordination itself
<vorlon> oh
<sil2100> I mean, how to use the tag of course
<vorlon> ok
<cyphermox> about the process of coordinating
<bdmurray> So let's keep track of how often we have the duplicated effort.
<cyphermox> ie. how we can improve, if things go wrong, postmortem ,etc.
<bdmurray> Let's move on.
<sil2100> cyphermox: sounds good
<bdmurray> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<bdmurray> I'd like to move this meeting to 30 minutes earlier.
<infinity> bdmurray: -12
<cyphermox> no opinion
<bdmurray> Okay, I don't want to lose anybody and we've had this slot for a long time.
<bdmurray> Anything else?
<bdmurray> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Oct 24 15:47:44 2019 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2019/ubuntu-meeting.2019-10-24-15.02.moin.txt
<sil2100> bdmurray: thanks!
<vorlon> thanks, all
