#xubuntu-devel 2015-12-28
<dkessel> Are you guys aware of the build problems of xubuntu-docs on xenial? Seems apache fop related...
<dkessel> https://launchpad.net/~dkessel/+archive/ubuntu/xubuntu-docs-daily/+build/8767702/+files/buildlog_ubuntu-xenial-amd64.xubuntu-docs_16.99-201512260536~201512281650~ubuntu16.04.1_BUILDING.txt.gz
<pleia2> flocculant had mentioned issues with building the pdfs
<dkessel> looks like fop is not putting libbatik in its classpath
<flocculant> dkessel: been like it since cycle start more or less
<pleia2> elmo is helping me bring up a backup of our doc/static things <3
<pleia2> this is just temporary, it may not be perfect (they don't have access to the old server, which went sideways)
<pleia2> but next step (hopefully this weekend) is to get our VPS running so no moar IS tickets for static/docs, just one last dns change
<pleia2> then we can fix up whatever is broken in the temporary tarball I just gave them
 * flocculant likes elmo 
<pleia2> temporary http://docs.xubuntu.org/ is restored
<pleia2> and http://static.xubuntu.org/ is also restored
<flocculant> thanks pleia2 :)
<pleia2> sure
<knome> pleia2, \o/
<knome> pleia2, i guess we should talk about which subdomains we want to enable on the server so we can make IS point them there
<pleia2> knome: for now I think it's just tracker, status and docs
<knome> what about wiki
 * knome hides
<knome> and pad
 * knome hides deeper in the cave
<pleia2> x_x
<knome> ahahaha!
<knome> well i think at least wiki we have talked about
<knome> and i still think that would make sense
<knome> pad was mostly a joke
<knome> (though i wouldn't mind if we ran our own too, but otoh, i don't mind the ubuntu pad much myself)
<pleia2> I think we're gonna need a bigger boat :P
<knome> lol
<knome> didn't we consider the wiki when thinking about the VPS?
<knome> i mean, dokuwiki is light, and it's not like it will be hammered all the time anyway
<pleia2> I meant the pad
<knome> haha
<knome> just forget it now
<knome> :)
<knome> static, docs, tracker and wiki sounds good to me
<knome> and potentially a subdomain where we serve a countdown banner from
<pleia2> why not just static?
<knome> but that's not current
<knome> countdown banner is not static, it's dynamic?
<pleia2> do not want a zillion subdomains
<knome> besides <img src="//countdown.xubuntu.org" /> is cooler than <img src="//static.xubuntu.org/countdown/1604" /> or whateva
<pleia2> heh
<knome> but it's not something we need to think about now
<knome> we haven't even decided we're doing a countdown banner
#xubuntu-devel 2015-12-29
<pleia2> do we have apport enabled on stable releases? I always thought we only kept it on in dev
<Unit193> I believe it's disabled during dev, enabled for release. :P
<flocculant> Unit193 pleia2 - as far as I know it is disabled on stable and at some point turned on for dev 
<bluesabre> flocculant: yup, though they turned it on verrrrry late last cycle
<bluesabre> https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu/xenial/apport/ubuntu/view/head:/debian/changelog
<bluesabre> https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu/xenial/apport/ubuntu/view/head:/debian/changelog#L174
<bluesabre> :D
<knome> trÃ¶Ã¶t
<flocculant> bluesabre: yep - hence me making sure I have the info for people to do that early before they wake up :)
<flocculant> pleia2: lol @ yourworshipfulness :p
<pleia2> :D
<Unit193> Hrm, really not much going on this cycle.
<knome> christmas, new year
<flocculant> Unit193: did you expect more? 
<Unit193> flocculant: Not really, due to LTS.  But really there's not been anything much for me to poke at, so that's something.
<flocculant> hhe
<flocculant> just core ... 
<Unit193> Yeah no, that was done last cycle....
<flocculant> certainly seems to have been done with 
<flocculant> seems like a good enough reason to have a meeting which you run next, to either give up with or push :D
<flocculant> hate me in the other channel ;)
<Unit193> Meh, not really much we can do, we've poked them quite a few times and "it's on the todo list"...
<flocculant> so we should officially give up waiting - I will make sure we have a monthly report 
<flocculant> I really don't see why 'our' people should think this is our fault
<bluesabre> it's certainly troublesome
<bluesabre> hi all
<bluesabre> and....
<bluesabre> dinner time
<bluesabre> bbabl
<flocculant> bluesabre: yea for sure it is, my position is if we're giving up then we should let all know it's not us that's doing so 
<flocculant> just basically someone not liking we called it core first
<knome> is it really just about the name?
<flocculant> I think so
<knome> think, but are not sure?
<flocculant> slangasek dressed it up in other stuff for LP
<flocculant> call me a cynic
<knome> (sorry, do not mean to be a prick...)
<flocculant> ofc
<knome> you mean he called it something else?
<knome> has anybody asked why?
<flocculant> neither do I
<flocculant> adam wondered why we called it core 
<knome> right, and?
<knome> i think it was slangasek who i had this argument over the name with
<knome> he proposed a lot of other things, and i told why they aren't as good as core
<flocculant> should you call it that? then whatever you want to call it .. then slanglasek came up with another reason, then has studiously ignored it
<flocculant> adam was in channel not on LP
<knome> well i was in channel too
<knome> i haven't followed the LP side
<knome> if you have a link handy...
<flocculant> anyway - pretty obvious after months they are ignoring it now - so why should we not bring it up in meeting and vote to drop or not - citing canonical ? 
<knome> drop what?
<flocculant> core for lts
<knome> why should we drop core for lts because somebody isn't content with what we are calling it?
<knome> if that is the only aspect that is problematic, that is
<flocculant> knome: but if we want it on cd.image then we have to at least to try it 
<flocculant> and quite frankly I have enough to test on day 0 on my own as it is 
<knome> if the name is the problem, let's call it "xubuntu humpty dumpty" to get it tested
<knome> i do acknowledge there are other issues too, but let's make sure a silly name argument doesn't make this fall
#xubuntu-devel 2015-12-30
<flocculant> knome: and just how long do you think we should play this game with them? 
<flocculant> I've got to have a cut off point 
<knome> if they won't allow the core name, let's just change it then
<knome> but if they don't, they'd better have a good argument
<flocculant> and given they are just playing games then my cut off off point is the 1st 
<flocculant> of January
<knome> it's their infrastructure; i'm sure they'll happily let us run our own and call our products whatever we like
<knome> do you have a link to LP where the naming discussion is?
<flocculant> the more I see of this issue the more I can see why people were /o\ over other debian issues
<flocculant> and yes it is the same ;)
<flocculant> knome: no - the name discussion was with adam in -release
<knome> maybe.
<knome> ok, do you remember the date?
<flocculant> 2015/4
<Unit193> infinity didn't seem to care, just wanted to point it out.
<flocculant> I've given up tbh on caring much, my position is if they eventually come through a day or so prior to release then that's really too bad and much much too late
<flocculant> yea
<Unit193> I'll poke again, I suppose.
<knome> i haven't seen anybody explicitly say "no"
<flocculant> then slangasek disapproved - and has ignored it since
<flocculant> well
<Unit193> And wonder why they don't get contributors?
<flocculant> other than an apparent 'it's on my queue' comment to Unit193 
<flocculant> which is as meaningless as any other comment
<flocculant> oh good lord is the wiki down again 
<flocculant> should make sure we bring this up on the pointless CC chat I guess
<knome> the wiki works for me.
<flocculant> mmm
<flocculant> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<flocculant> that one? 
<knome> that too
<flocculant> must be local for some reason then - I can get anywhere else
<flocculant> or firefox - chromium landed fine
<knome> i would personally find out if this is about the name or not
<knome> if it's about the name, then get on with it and change to something else
<knome> if it's something else... well, then just push forward
<flocculant> cc meeting is 2 working days before b1 freeze so that's pointless
<knome> and figure out possible blockers and see what we can do with it
<knome> i don't think the CC is the right council to resolve this anyway
<flocculant> I'll pinh mhall119 for the last 30 minutes of this discussion
<flocculant> ping
<knome> or if somebody feels like we'd like to get them involved, we can just poke them outside a meeting
<knome> yes, something like that ^
<flocculant> maybe not - but given they are all on holiday till god only knows when - who do we poke? 
<knome> i don't know
<flocculant> sorry, but I think this is about the name - perhaps amongst themselves - but ... 
<knome> then they should clearly state that to us
<flocculant> and any reason to slow is enough
<knome> in which case we will come up with a new one
<flocculant> I have no trust in them anymore tbh
<flocculant> as a 'group' 
<knome> i guess i can see that, but otoh, that attitude doesn't help at all (as you also know)
<knome> we can blame them to the end of the world, but that won't make them do decisions we want
<knome> might do quite the opposite
<flocculant> knome: currently we're waiting for one person to find time in their queue 
<knome> if that's the real status (and they just don't want to do it because of the name), then we should wait
<knome> we should also be in touch with them and probably get an ETA at some point
<flocculant> right now - they work for me, it's taking too long so I don't even have to think about testing it ;)
<knome> but i don't think there is much more to do
<flocculant> as far as I now 'we' can't do more than we have 
<flocculant> Unit193: is that right ^^ ?
<knome> not much at least
<flocculant> we did what they asked
<knome> yes, i have the same point of view to it
<flocculant> anyway - bed for me now :)
<knome> yep, have a good night and don't worry too much about things
<flocculant> oh I won't :)
<flocculant> if it turns up in March - too late ;)
<knome> let's target for january.
<flocculant> mmm
<flocculant> night :)
<knome> good night!
<Unit193> Well we could fix it so it applies cleanly, but I've already done that before and don't see a reason to do so again unless it'll be reviewed before I'd have to fix it yet again.
<knome> at least i'd make sure the name isn't a showstopper before doing that.
<Unit193> I'd have thought they'd say that...
<Unit193> flocculant: Hi.  So I'm still activly using Xenial somewhere, but haven't done much reporting except for the upgrade.  Is there something specific there that'd help you, or should I just continue to mention things/file reports as they crop up?
<flocculant> Unit193: just carry on as you are is great :)
<knome> some improvements about to land to xubuntu.org
<knome> as soon as the IS team pushes the new branch revision
<knome> bbl
<pleia2> ooh, rt tickets being addressed \o/
<knome> yup
<mhall119> flocculant: I read the backlog, but I don't understand the problem or it's context, can you give me a tl;dr?
<knome> mhall119, we've been waiting for a merge since september; merging this change would enable a new version of xubuntu (named "xubuntu core") to be built and thus appear on cdimage.ubuntu.com; we're not exactly sure what is taking so long
<knome> mhall119, one possibility is the naming; some concerns have been raised because it conflicts with "ubuntu core", but afaik, nobody has said that's the reason
<knome> mhall119, another possibility is that people are simply busy
<knome> mhall119, this is more problematic for us every day because as long as the official builds aren't up, we can't do official testing
#xubuntu-devel 2015-12-31
<bluesabre> mhall119: with that, we'll have to update our branch to merge with the current trunk, but it doesn't do much good for us to update it without a guarantee of a merge soon after as we just fall behind after a few more commits
<bluesabre> mhall119: ideally, we could get somebody ready to merge and then we could provide a then merge-ready branch, or have the merger handle when they are ready. We're flexible if we can get it in one way or another :)
<Unit193> knome: Waiting since August, technically.
<pleia2> knome: I don't know what to do with the -contacts email
<knome> hmm..
<knome> i'll handle it today then
<pleia2> I took a few minutes to look into the distro being mentioned, but that was not enough to figure out exactly what they're doing differently (or what this person is proposing exactly)
<knome> i don't think we should try to figure out what he proposes; if he wants to propose something, he should clearly state what it is
<knome> J21, connection problems?
<knome> or is that Unit193's bot
<knome> :p
<knome> pleia2, ok, done
<pleia2> knome: thanks
<knome> np
<knome> somebody should probably also discard the message from the queue :P
<pleia2> k
<knome> ta
<Unit193> Hmm?
#xubuntu-devel 2016-01-01
<J21> knome: my shell had problems at the dc
<knome> J21, hope it's better now :)
<Unit193> Respinning, fwiw.
<ochosi> happy new year everyone, sorry for the absence, was in bed with 39' for a week now...
<knome> huh
<knome> get well soon
<knome> and huh also because another friend just joined another channel and said exactly the same
<mhall119> knome: bluesabre: thanks for that, do you have a link to the MP?
<Unit193> https://code.launchpad.net/~unit193/ubuntu-cdimage/xubuntu-core/+merge/268167
#xubuntu-devel 2016-01-02
<pleia2> knome: we have a server now
<knome> cool!
<Unit193> knome: Get us the wiki!
<Unit193> knome: And going with a Debian server? :---D
<knome> Unit193, everything in time
<knome> looks like pleia2 set up ubuntu 15.10
<Unit193> Interesting.
<knome> complaints etc to her inbox, plz
<knome> :P
<Unit193> Nono, we don't like harassing her, she's too busy for that.  All go to you!
<knome> my complaints department for server OS related issues is closed temporarily.
<pleia2> I'll go to 16.04 and leave it there until the next LTS
<pleia2> Debian is always twmpting though, I run it everywhere else
<Unit193> I guessed as much, tbh.  And yeah it is pretty tempting.  I think that's wise to do .10 since you won't have to jump init systems honestly.
<pleia2> I am wise \o/
<bluesabre> indeed!
<knome> yes
<flocculant> pleia2: \o/
<amjjawad> Hi knome :) happy new year :)
<knome> to you too
<amjjawad> Thanks
<knome> so, what's the question?
<amjjawad> ubuntugnome.org is hosted with Canonical AFAIK. I can't even update WordPress, nor install any plug-in nor do anything whatsoever.
<amjjawad> I can only create pages and add posts, that's all.
<knome> you can send requests via rt.ubuntu.com
<knome> that's how canonical-hosted sites work
<amjjawad> For Xubuntu, do you guys host with them too?
<knome> yes
<amjjawad> website + ISOs too?
<knome> yes
<amjjawad> From your own experience, do you think it's a bad idea to host somewhere else? should we stick with them?
<knome> there are benefits with both ways
<knome> when you host with canonical, and have figured out a stable environment, you don't have to deal with the maintaining overhead yourself
<knome> and by stable environment i mean you know which theme/plugins you want to use
<amjjawad> True. We're planning to replace the current website with a better designed one. However, due to limited access, we're unable to do that and I was wondering how to do it but now, you told I need to contact rt.ubuntu.com
<knome> rt.ubuntu.com is where you can request canonical to update the website files with new ones
<amjjawad> Someone mentioned they're so slow :( not sure if that's true.
<amjjawad> I guess one way to find out is to actually send and see.
<knome> as i said, once you have figured out a stable environment, it's ok
<amjjawad> Yes
<knome> our requests for theme updates are *usually* responded to within 1-2 days
<knome> anyway, i would strongly suggest, regardless how you build the theme, to maintain it in a bzr (or any other) repository so you can ask the canonical IS to update to a certain revision
<knome> this also enables them to see a diff between the version you are running now and the version you are requesting
<knome> this is important because all changes more or less go through code review to make sure it's safe
<amjjawad> Indeed.
<amjjawad> Can I share this with my team?
<knome> this is a public channel - of course
<amjjawad> I know, just thought to double check :)
<amjjawad> Many thanks. If that will work for us, we're sticking with them. If not, I have a decent web hosting service (a friend) and he has been a great help and just given me some discount for non-profit projects. We will see which option is best for us.
<knome> good luck
<amjjawad> To be honest, I love the design of Xubuntu. I wish I could build something similar.
<amjjawad> Thank you knome appreciate your time :)
<knome> np
<knome> and thanks for the compliments
<amjjawad> You welcome :D
<amjjawad> is it possible to use something similar? to your theme? or that's not possible?
<knome> of course it's possible to use something similar
<amjjawad> hmm, but how? :( 
<knome> ok, few things
<knome> 1) our theme is in a repository here: https://launchpad.net/xubuntu-website/theme
<knome> feel free to look at it and build your theme around it
<knome> however,
<knome> 2) the theme does not have a license yet, so without further notice, it's copyright are with me
<knome> that said, i'm fine with you using this theme to build off your theme, as long as you make it substantially different so the ubuntu gnome website doesn't look like the xubuntu website to avoid confusion
<knome> once i've seen your modifications, i will either approve them if they make the sites different enough (and aren't a disservice for the theme) or disapprove them (until the theme is modified to a point where i can approve it)
<amjjawad> 100% fine by me. What if I want to use 'similar' theme for my own websites? with applying the same steps above of course. Is that still possible?
<knome> i would have to think twice about that, but at least the above would apply.
<knome> i think it's beneficial for xubuntu (etc) to have a distinct website theme from others
<knome> so i'm not sure if i'd generally like the idea of people using a similar theme for their personal websites
<amjjawad> Don't get me wrong, I'd surely do something different. Just the general layout or concept might be a bit similar.
<amjjawad> Okay, forget about the personal websites then ;)
<knome> if you look around, you can see that ubuntu.com is really similar - because the xubuntu website is inspired by that
<amjjawad> let's stick to Ubuntu GNOME to reduce confusion.
<amjjawad> To be, Xubuntu's website is much easier than Ubuntu's website.
<amjjawad> to me*
<knome> the differences i'm thinking about should be about the same level as with xubuntu/ubuntu
<knome> for example, just changing some colors and the header image wouldn't do it, i'm afraid
<amjjawad> I know, that won't be different for sure.
<amjjawad> Don't worry, since I'm not a coder, I won't be involved so chances to have similar website are low. However, I'll share this with my team so whoever will do the coding, if and only if he/she likes to modify the code, the rules above should apply.
<amjjawad> It's just like graping Ubuntu's Kernel and come up with something else. Same what we did with my other project, ToriOS
<knome> as long as it's approved by me, i'm fine with whoever works with the changes.
<amjjawad> https://launchpad.net/~torios
<amjjawad> I'll make sure to highlight that when I share this chat with the team.
<knome> thanks
<knome> pleia2, i found something... for some reason, the new server isn't picking up the bugs blueprint
#xubuntu-devel 2016-01-03
<knome> hmmh
<knome> now it is
<knome> without changes...
<amjjawad> knome, I sent an email to both ToriOS team and Ubuntu GNOME team. If anyone wishes to follow the steps and take it from there, they should be aware of howto do that. If not, I'm sorry if I wasted your time but that was very important information for me. Many thanks and good luck with 16.04 :)
<pleia2> knome: back from lunch
<pleia2> knome: does it need some kind of launchpad lib installed?
<pleia2> configuring postfix now
<knome> pleia2, no... it just didn't work, then it did
<knome> o.o
<pleia2> knome: oh good, magic
<pleia2> knome: you have sendmail command now
<knome> cool
<knome> i think my gmail is moving the mail to spam
<knome> maybe bluesabre can tell if it works :P
<knome> he gets daily mails
<pleia2> heh :)
<pleia2> it may dump them in spam because dns isn't set up yet
<pleia2> (just has some default linode thing)
<knome> no, i mean it has been doing that for weeks :P
<pleia2> it happens
<knome> yeah...
<knome> and i don't even care! :P
<pleia2> hah
<flocculant> never noticed this before, but I don't sit and watch make making ... but "awk: cmd. line:1: (FILENAME=- FNR=1) fatal: division by zero attempted../scripts/translate.sh: 57: [: Illegal number: "  when building docs
<knome> heh
<flocculant> I assume that means nothing to care about 
<knome> flocculant, i'll make sure to look at it at some point
<flocculant> aah ok - didn't know what heh meant there :)
<knome> well it doesn't seem like it's a huge issue
<flocculant> I assume not, means nothing to me - so I said I saw it
<flocculant> I can just as easily ignore these things in the future - no idea what people want there 
<knome> as long as it doesn't stop stuff from building (which you can notice), any warnings or errors should mean nothing
<knome> i mean, you will *always* get the warnings for missing files for C, because they will always be missing
<flocculant> ok - I can ignore it all now then - you know pdf fails 
<knome> yep
<flocculant> back off now - back in the week as normal time resumes :)
<knome> hf
<knome> bluesabre, Noskcaj_: are you using https://sigma.unit193.net/~unit193/xfce412.html actively?
<bluesabre> knome: it is a very useful tool
<bluesabre> when I am doing uploads, I do refer to it
<knome> ok, fair enough
<knome> considering http://xubuntu.org/dev/ is very high level page (eg. not linking to specific information), where do you think it would be good to link to that page?
<knome> actually i will move stuff around more, but still the question remains..
<bluesabre> maybe from the how to contribute... have /dev as a summary with links to more detailed or valuable links
<knome> well i don't know
<knome> that's kind of meh, because the website still isn't targeted at newbies
<bluesabre> we already have http://xubuntu.org/dev/ it makes sense to just have another section in there for our dev tools
<knome> but i disagree; it's still very high-level information, pointing people to where the real information is
<knome> i'll try to figure out something
<knome> but meh, this is still a mess :(
<bluesabre> :(
<knome> houston, we have a problem
<Unit193> Well, all 3 of us know where it is, does it need to be there at all?
<knome> otoh, i would like to make the communication methods really clear
<knome> otoh, i would like to make it hard to reach to avoid people asking support questions on the devel list and irc channel
<knome> ok, i think this is better now:
<knome> http://xubuntu.org/contribute/
<knome> this is the "Get Involved" stuff, which explains the basic stuff about contributing, lists the subteams and some activities everybody can do
<knome> it also refers to...
<knome> http://xubuntu.org/dev/
<knome> which points to the tracker, all the communication methods and the developer documentation (so far around the wiki, but will be a single link to the contributor documentation)
<knome> any complaints?
<knome> well i have one :P
<knome> added a mention of the meetings to the first one
<knome> bbl
