#ubuntu-mobile 2007-05-15
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(mdz/#ubuntu-mobile) Mithrandir: I changed the status of the hildon-libs branches to Abandoned so they don't show up and confuse people.  I assume you'll handle the package removal from the archive?
<heno> mdz: onBoard will need a few tweaks for the mobile edition, should I spec that up? Chris has said he can work on it
<Mithrandir> mdz: yes, I'll get it removed.
!RichiH:*! Hi all. As you probably noticed, one of our sponsors had trouble with his upstream. Everything should be back to normal, now. Sorry for the inconvenience, thanks for using freenode and have a great day :)
(mdz/#ubuntu-mobile) Mithrandir: how is hildon-1 coming along?  the URL that lucas posted to -mobile looks useful
<Mithrandir> yes, I found that a couple of days back; hildon-1 in bzr compiles, but I haven't uploaded packages of it yet.
<MDK> hey, I'm the hildon-1 maintainer on the nokia side
<MDK> so feel free to ask questions
<Mithrandir> coolie. :-)
<MDK> I think you might also want to include our development theme in your set
<MDK> since widgets without theming are pretty useless
<Mithrandir> they won't fall back to some default theming?
<MDK> it will
<MDK> but the 'default theming' is fairly ugly
<MDK> we relly on 100% pixmap-based theming
<Mithrandir> ok
<MDK> so in the code you have actual references to styles/pixmaps
* Mithrandir nods.
<Mithrandir> packaging a theme should be easy enough.
<Mithrandir> or we should just be able to sync from your sources.
<MDK> basically you want hildon-theme-layout-4 and hildon-theme-layout-plankton
<MDK> -layout-4 is a "matrix" for the theme, stuff shared among all themes
<MDK> -plankton is one particular implementation of the theme, our development theme
<MDK> I had a blog entry about the model: http://www.mdk.org.pl/articles/2007/02/13/maemo-theming
<Mithrandir> ok
<Mithrandir> http://www.linux.com/article.pl?sid=07/05/09/1637253 is a review of maemo 3.1; might be interesting to read.
* adilson thinks about getting a N800 and ditch the N770
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-05-16
<Mithrandir> MDK: you might want to pull http://codebrowse.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mobile/hildon-1/ubuntu/revision/tfheen%40err.no-20070514124620-1g8ub8curvba3c9w?start_revid=tfheen%40err.no-20070515135628-9qyogkww7ziss69s into upstream hildon-1
<mdz> Mithrandir: hi
<Mithrandir> hiya mdz
<mdz> Mithrandir: how is hildon-1 coming along?
<Mithrandir> I asked kyle to take a look at it last night, I'm not sure if he's done so yet.
<Mithrandir> I try not to NEW my own packages.
<mdz> let's ask someone more likely to be awake, we've no time to waste
<Mithrandir> I'll get seb to do it
<mdz> pitti? keybuk? seb128?
<mdz> ok
<seb128> mdz: pong
<Mithrandir> seb128: could you please wave hildon-1 through NEW?
<Mithrandir> if it's not too crackful for you
<mdz> with review of course :-)
<seb128> looking at it now
<seb128> mdz: of course ;)
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: can you explain to me what you meant by that? I'm not familiar with the local jargon yet ;)
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: crackful?  We have a bad habit of referring to various kind of unclean solutions, bugs and such as crack.
<Mithrandir> also excessive bling
<seb128> Mithrandir: is that "libhildon"?
<seb128> (there is no "hildon-1" to NEW)
<Mithrandir> sounds right, yes.
<Mithrandir> it's called hildon-1 in svn, so I got confused.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: No, sorry, I meant "wave hildon-1 through NEW?"
<seb128> Mithrandir: hum, the source package has debian/build full
<seb128> looks wrong to me
<Mithrandir> seb128: ugh, yes, clean doesn't really clean properly. :-/
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: oh, sorry.  NEW is a queue where all new packages (both source and binary) end up for a bit of manual review.
<seb128> why is there 3 changelog?
<seb128> (you might want to update Maintainer though that's a detail)
<Mithrandir> says in the header of the ChangeLog, it's from before it was renamed.
<seb128> debian/copyright is minimalistic (no mention of who packaged it, no "On Debian GNU/Linux systems... etc"
<seb128> Mithrandir: the package is a has no orig.tar.gz, is that on purpose?
<Mithrandir> I'm not sure where the upstream tarballs are stored; it's from an SVN snapshot
<seb128> hum
<agoliveira> seb128: IIRC, there's no tarballs in there :(
<seb128> Mithrandir: 
<seb128> $ dpkg -c libhildon1-dev_1.0.5-1ubuntu1_i386.deb | grep 1.so
<seb128> lrwxrwxrwx root/root         0 2007-05-16 13:59 ./usr/lib/libhildon-1.so -> libhildon-1.so.0.5.0
<seb128> lrwxrwxrwx root/root         0 2007-05-16 13:59 ./usr/lib/libhildon_1.so -> libhildon-1.so
<seb128> that's weird
<Mithrandir> two copies even
<Mithrandir> oh, no, I can't read.
<seb128> yes, how come?
<seb128> $ dpkg -c libhildon1_1.0.5-1ubuntu1_i386.deb | grep so
<seb128> -rw-r--r-- root/root    330988 2007-05-16 13:59 ./usr/lib/libhildon-1.so.0.5.0
<seb128> lrwxrwxrwx root/root         0 2007-05-16 13:59 ./usr/lib/libhildon-1.so.0 -> libhildon-1.so.0.5.0
<seb128> lrwxrwxrwx root/root         0 2007-05-16 13:59 ./usr/lib/libhildon_1.so.0 -> libhildon-1.so.0
<seb128> lrwxrwxrwx root/root         0 2007-05-16 13:59 ./usr/lib/libhildon_1.so.0.0.0 -> libhildon-1.so.0.0.0
<seb128> there is one lib using -1
<seb128> and one using _1
<Mithrandir> yeah, strange, I'll fix those problems then reupload.
<seb128> the package is a mess :/ Are the 2 libs required?
<seb128> ok, thanks
<seb128> the libs duplications and debian/build shipped with the source should be fixed
<seb128> out of this the packaging is quite ugly but that's not a stopper
<Mithrandir> yes, I agree it's ugly, but it blocks the rest of the stack.
<agoliveira> seb128: Don't worry. If you think this one is a mess, wait until you see the others :)
<bintut> hello all..
<seb128> hi bintut
<agoliveira> bintut: hi
<bintut> i'm thinking of installing an embedded linux on my network appliance but i don't know what distribution to use, package management to use, etc..
<bintut> hello seb128, agoliveira..
<bintut> honestly, i don't have any experience with embedded linux.. i am into big servers..
<bintut> but since i have a network appliance here, i want to give it a try..
<bintut> i am thinking if it really needs to have a package management for an embedded linux installed to a network appliance
<bintut> just like having .deb for debian based system or .rpm for rpm based system
<jsgotangco> ogra actually managed to install edubuntu in an intel classmate PC i guess that can be dscribed roughly as embedded as well, but on a different note
<bintut> does it make sense having a package management on an embedded linux?  what is the plan for this project?
* bintut waves to jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> bintut: hello, how is singapore :)
<bintut> jsgotangco: nice..
<bintut> anyone here knows the plans for the ubuntu mobile distribution?  will you be using a package management on this distro?
<jsgotangco> bintut: for what its worth, ubuntu embedded is starting off with hildon so it gives you a hint about package management
<bintut> jsgotangco: what's hildon?
<jsgotangco> maemo's UI
<bintut> jsgotangco: does this mean that the ubuntu mobile is targeting nokia internet tablet?
<agoliveira> bintut: No, the idea is to use in other platforms, initially x86 btw.
<bintut> agoliveira: ok.. i have here a via based processor network appliance..
<bintut> agoliveira: which is an x86 machine
<agoliveira> bintut: So should be no problem when it's done
<bintut> agoliveira: are you using the .deb package management for the ubuntu mobile?
<agoliveira> bintut: the packages are being created.
<agoliveira> bintut: but as it will be a version of Ubuntu, the package management will be the same as usual.
<bintut> agoliveira: are you using a package management for the ubuntu mobile?
<bintut> agoliveira: ok.. so, that will be a .deb packages
<agoliveira> bintut: Yep
<bintut> agoliveira: basically, embedded devices runs on a read only mode.. any idea on how will the embedded devices be able to update the packages if in case there will be an update to a certain package?
<agoliveira> bintut: this wasn't discussed yet IFAIK.
<bintut> agoliveira: i have here a 256mb cf disk..
<agoliveira> bintut: actually we don't have much designed yet as the project start last week only.
<Mithrandir> one option would be to use jffs or similar and not have / be read-only.
<bintut> agoliveira: i was also thinking of adopting the openembedded project but i was confused if i have to use a package management or not since what i think is that whenever you apply the updates to your embedded device, you have to re-flash your cfdisk
<agoliveira> bintut: not necessarely.There's a lot of differnt ways to do it, deppending on your application.
<bintut> because, even apt and it's dependencies eats disk spaces
<agoliveira> bintut: Sure. You can also have 2 partitions, one ro and one rw just for that.
<bintut> agoliveira: but cfdisk doesn't survive for a frequent write to it
<Mithrandir> with a write-levelling file system, that should not be very much of a problem.
<bintut> unless, using a host machine with a bootstrap to build the embedded OS first then from there dd the image to a cfdisk in such a way to update the system itself
<agoliveira> Indeed. It's being some time that cf's have a very good MTBF
<Mithrandir> as long as you turn off atime and such you should be fairly good
<bintut> anyway, i will subscribe to the mailing list to get an update to this development
<Mithrandir> sounds good
<agoliveira> A few years ago there was (is?) a special kind of CF called DiskOnChip that has an special hardware-level levelling system but I think most of the cf's today have it as well.
<agoliveira> I still have a few around as they we used a lot on PC/104s.
<tuxmaniac> Hello gang :-)
<agoliveira> tuxmanic: Hi
* tuxmaniac is Aanjhan working in a German MNC in INDIA as a Embedded Software developer, an ardent Ubuntu fan. Main job at workplace is to interface mobile devices with the Automotive Multimedia Devices. Hope I can contribute to this project initiated by the Ubuntu Community
<Mithrandir> tuxmaniac: what are you currently using for the UI layer in your work?
<tuxmaniac> Mithrandir, custom widgets
<tuxmaniac> Mithrandir, none from the FOSS world. We write widgets from scratch to suit customer requirements
<Mithrandir> ahkay, is there interest in changing that?
<agoliveira> tuxmanic: using what as base?
<agoliveira> tuxmanic: Ah, sorry. I meant if you use something like GTK, Qt, etc.
<agoliveira> tuxmaniac: ...X primitives :)
<tuxmaniac> agoliveira, no
<Mithrandir> seb128: just uploaded a new libhildon, it should make you cry slightly less
<seb128> Mithrandir: looking
<Mithrandir> cheers.
<seb128> Mithrandir: that one looks fine, you ship .bzr to the src though
<seb128> Mithrandir: do you want to fix it or should I accept this version?
<Mithrandir> yes, I noticed slightly too late, I'll try to remember next time.
<seb128> k, I accept it then
<seb128> Mithrandir: hum, libhildon1 Depends on osso-sounds-ui which is not available
<Mithrandir> I should fix that
* bintut waves to all... gtg now..
* tko adds one more channel to the idle list :)
<MDK> w 45
<MDK> err, sorry
<MDK> seb128: about the hildon-1 lib mess...
<MDK> yes, the '_' symlink is totally useless
<MDK> unfortunately, we needed it because of certain integration issues on our side
<MDK> you don't want to know more ;)
<MDK> in any case, you prolly want to remove it from your build
<seb128> we did
<seb128> but thanks for the information ;)
<ferulo> well MDK you don't want to know details about our python packages :)
<MDK> yes
<MDK> I dont ;)
<tko> I think you guys don't want to know about packaging :)
<seb128> MDK: do you plan to look at what we change? or is there a place where you want to get cleanup patches, etc?
<MDK> seb128: I'm following your bzr repos
<tko> seb128: is there an rss feed to subscribe to?
<MDK> seb128: and yes, we're definitelly interested in the changes
<tko> MDK: packaging included? :)
<seb128> tko: not that I know, but you can look happens in bzr ;)
<seb128> +what
<MDK> tko: always willing to learn something new ;)
<tko> guess I have to do it web1.0 way then
<mdz> tko: I thuoght there was an RSS feed available, but can't find it now that I look
<tko> mdz: so it wasn't just me then :)
<tko> mdz: I found the mail subscription though
<mdz> yes, there is that
<Mithrandir> MDK: if you're happy with just pulling patches out of our bzr branch, that's great.  If you prefer to get them some other way, tell us so we can post them to bugzilla, etc.
<Mithrandir> MDK: also, do you have release tarballs somewhere?  Having the packages be native ones is inefficient and slightly ugly.
<tko> Mithrandir: no, we don't generally do tarball releases
<tko> Mithrandir: it's basically just extra overhead since we need debian packages anyway
<Mithrandir> hmkay.  It'd be nice for us, but I guess we can make do without them
<tko> we know, and we've been talking about doing 'real' upstream maintenance for hildon
<tko> but we're big and slow :)
<tko> in the early ages I was actually maintaining gtk 'upstream' code and the debian packaging separately and that was just painful
<Mithrandir> depends on your VCS, I think
<tko> and your debian package, I think.. gtk was in tarball + patches mode
<tko> hct to the rescue! (?)
<Mithrandir> tarball + patches is utterly crackful.
<Mithrandir> I'm hoping we'll have the necessary infrastructure to make working with something a bit like tarball + patches, but without the pain (basically, orig tree + feature branches + integration branch) soon
<tko> when debconf was in finland there was this presentation about the hypothetical packaging tool that would do all the magic...
<Mithrandir> yes
<Mithrandir> this is an implementation of something along those lines.
<tko> oh cool. not that I'd been paying much attention but it kind of seemed to fade away
<Mithrandir> you were at dc5?
<tko> yep. I live/work close by
<tko> used to study at hut
<Mithrandir> I was there for NUCCC in, hmm, 2002? and then again for debconf 5
<Mithrandir> really nice campus
<mdz> Mithrandir: unless the tarballs are large enough that repeated uploads are inconvenient, native seems like the way to go for now
<Mithrandir> mdz: agreed, it's more of a nice to have.
<mdz> in fact I think it's preferable to stay native if possible, since all you need is the bzr repository, no need to find and fetch the tarball in order to do an upload
<Mithrandir> it's hardly ever impossible to stay native. :-)
<Mithrandir> I'm thinking we should avoid having the .bzr in the upload, though I'm not sure about that either.
<tko> how inconvient is it to have debian/ directory in upstream? I've understood it's pretty annoying in the tarball, but what about vcs?
<Mithrandir> it matters less there, especially with bzr's good merge capabilities.
<mdz> Mithrandir: yes, I think we should avoid .bzr in the source tarball
<mdz> I use DEBUILD_DPKG_BUILDPACKAGE_OPTS="-i'(?:^|/).*~$|(?:^|/)\..*\.swp|DEADJOE|(?:/CVS|/RCS|/\.svn|/\.deps|\{arch\}|\.arch-ids|\.arch-inventory|\.bzr|\.bzrignore|\.shelf)(?:$|/)' -ICVS -I.svn -I\{arch\} -I.arch-ids -I.arch-inventory -I.bzr -I.bzrignore -I.shelf -uc -us"
<Mithrandir> oh well, bedtime.  See you all on Friday since tomorrow is a doubly public holiday here in .no.
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-05-17
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) mdz: I think recent dpkg-source have been fixed to ignore most bzr/git stuff they failed to ignore in the past
<mdz> lool: ah, we haven't merged dpkg yet in gutsy
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tko: debian/ in upstream VCS is fine, but it's painful in tarballs
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) mdz: Then you have a good motivation to do so :)
* lool . o O ( I suppose the apt-getable archive isn't interesting for the tarballs if Ubuntu takes SVN snapshots of the upstream sources )
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) mdz: Are you recommending the use of native packages because it makes it easier to build/upload stuff from bzr checkouts?
<mdz> lool: yep
<mdz> lool: combined with the fact that there are no upstream tarball releases
<tko> would there be much benefit from us doing real tarball releases?
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tko: Speaking for Debian, which is currently *not* packaging hildon, there certainly would be benefit for other distros
<tko> right. annoying that being both upstream maintainer and packager doing so means extra work :-/
<mdz> lool: do you know of any reason why Debian could not adopt Ubuntu's packages verbatim?
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) mdz: Some developers have complained about the changelog entries, and they usually need some checks to meet Debian standards
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) mdz: Check libhildon, it has a couple of lintian errors
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) The copyright file is mostly clean, but Debian ftpmasters would require a download URL
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) etc;
<mdz> lool: I haven't seen tollef's new package, but with the old hildon-libs one, the only issue was the lack of descriptions
<mdz> which we have a plan to clean up later, not blocking entry into the archive for that
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) debhelper build-dep is >= 4 while debian/compat says 5
<mdz> lool: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-maemo-packaging-cleanup
<mdz> I added incorrect debhelper deps to the list; please feel free to add other problems you find
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) mdz: Thanks, didn't know about this spec
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) mdz: Coincidentally, I wondered this morning on #debian-devel-french whether anybody would be interesting about having hildon packages in Debian, and mentionned some use cases
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) It seems no awake french DD has particular interest on the packages though
<mdz> if anyone has such an interest, please point them to bzr
<mdz> so that we can stay in sync
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) mdz: I will; any shared source repository for packages is always a good idea
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) mdz: Is this MaemoPackagingCleanup supposed to happen on upstream debian/ or only in Ubuntu's bzr?
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) Do some people here already commit on the upstream debian/?
<mdz> all of our work will go into bzr
<mdz> if it can be merged from there to upstream, that would be good
<mdz> or if upstream would prefer to remove the packaging from svn and let that part happen in bzr, that's also ok
<mdz> but we definitely want it to be decentralized
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) (I understand that we want the changes to end up in the bzr, but I was wondering whether we could do them "upstream" in the SVN, and merge that in bzr from the upstream branch)
<mdz> lool: the point of using bzr is that anyone can create a branch and we can easily merge between them
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) Sure, I understand how Debian could create a debian branch and benefit from sharing the same repository; it's just that "upstream" is currently using SVN which makes me wonder whether changing debian/ in bzr is the best way to go -- but indeed, would they use bzr, they would have an easy time pulling the fixes :-)
<mdz> lool: we require the ability to grant commit access, including the packaging, to ubuntu mobile developers
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) Ah, dpkg-source -i doesn't work on native packages
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) Needs -I.bzr instead
<webjames> Hello
<webjames> is this the only information at the moment: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded
<webjames> will is have sms, and dialing using gsm?
<mdz> Mithrandir: hi
<Mithrandir> mdz: hiya
<mdz> Mithrandir: checking in to see how the hildon packaging is going
<Mithrandir> webjames: that would depend on the people distributing hardware.  We are currently working on the software stack and I am not aware of GSM capabilities of any of the current target platforms.
<Mithrandir> mdz: it's a public holiday in Norway so I'm not really here.
<mdz> Mithrandir: oh, norway too?
<Mithrandir> yes.  Doubly so, both Ascension day and constitution day.
<Mithrandir> so lots of people out in the streets with classical clothes on and such.
<mdz> what fun
<mdz> Mithrandir: let's catch up tomorrow then
<Mithrandir> sounds good.
<Mithrandir> have you seen any guide to what bits should be packaged first yet?
<mdz> Mithrandir: no response to my inquiries,  suspect it may be a holiday in finland as well
<ferulo> yup, it's holiday here
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) Concerning the descriptions: I found out that Maemo has a nicely documented trademark policy, but it might be a bit painful to use this name in the source packages; there are plenty of rules to follow, such as using the  (TM) symbol, or avoiding "based on maemo" in favor of "incorporating maemo"; so I recommend avoiding "maemo" altogether, except perhaps for the Homepage link
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) Links to TM policies: http://maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2007-May/010234.html
<adilson> lool: I've being looking at this a few days ago but, according to mdz, this should not be a problem as we are refering to maemo itself, not naming anything after it.
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) I suppose it would be fair use; I wondered about it for a Debian "pkg-maemo" project
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-05-18
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#ubuntu-mobile 2007-05-19
-dmwaters(i=dmwaters@freenode/staff/dmwaters)- {global notice} Good day all! It's that time again, I've got 4 major rotation servers to upgrade. They've been out of rotation for a while so shouldn't be too noisey, but will cause some major disturbence as this effects the tor servers to. I will give further notice in wallops, so /mode your_nick +w if you are interested. Thank you for your patience, and thank you for using freenode!
!dmwaters:*! Good day all, first server i'm updating has about 570 users on it.
!dmwaters:*! next box has 1422 users on it.
!dmwaters:*! ok, about 1600 users in this next round, 2 servers.
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#ubuntu-mobile 2007-05-20
<PP3-Man> Hi!
<PP3-Man> Any humans in here?
<PP3-Man> I'm trying to get Ubuntu working on my Pepper Pad 3.
<PP3-Man> Anyone know where to get the drivers for AMD Geode LX cs 5536 sound card ?
!christel:*! Hi all, we are currently experiencing some problems with one of our main rotation servers. It may be a tad bumpy as we look into and try justify the situation, bear with us please and thank you for using freenode.
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#ubuntu-mobile 2008-05-12
<jussi01> Hei all
<jussi01> recently there was a blog post on planet about running ubuntumobile in zephyr. it had a link to a guide on it. could someone point me to that guide?
<davmor2> Just got back off holiday.  I've installed beta4 into xephyr and most of the icons don't link to the thing they say they do :(
<stgraber> davmor2: confirmed here with a daily (from Wednesday), it usually starts the software located on the left or on the right of the icon you click
<Zic> davmor2 & stgraber : confirmed too
<Zic> but if I reboot Xephyr on UME build, it works, apparently
<davmor2> Zic: what did you say you did to get the apps to work please?
<Thus0> hello here
<Zic> david88_lin: apt-get update/apt-get upgrade and restart Xephyr session
<Zic> I don't think upgrades are responsible of the "correction" of this bug, because this morning, I have the same problem
<Zic> just try to restart your Xephyr session, it works here :}
<Valerie> when ubuntu mobile is released, will it be for windows mobile devices?
<agoliveira> Valerie: Hi. In short, no. Please check the FAQ.
<Valerie> that sucks :(
<agx> wich is the difference between the 2 images "mccaslin" and "menlow" on http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/moblin/ ?
<agx> i think that the UMPC i have has a Via processor, so i should use a normal ubuntu installation and just add the mobile packages later?
<agoliveira> agx: ï»¿mccaslin and ï»¿menlow are Intel platforms that UME is built for. Possibly none of those will work with your hardware as they are quite specific. I suggest you read the docs and use the image-builder to create your image.
<agx> i've putted boot.img.gz onto an USB stick and it booted... i think i can just use an i386 install (Via 1200Mhz processor) and add the gui packages by hand, ok???
<agx> wich ubuntu release include ubuntu-mobile? gutsy or the latest?
<agoliveira> agx: None. UME is a separate project.
<agoliveira> and it's not a distribuito as Ubuntu. It's a development platform.
<agx> agoliveira, yes i know but this page refer to gutsy: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/HildonDesktopManualProcedure ; perhaps i should s/gutsy/latest/g ??
<agoliveira> agx: This page is outdated.
<agoliveira> agx: BTW, this not only old as totally not recomended anymore. Use image-creator.
<agx> agoliveira, well i don't have an ubuntu installed to run it...
<agoliveira> agx: Unless you have the exact hardware, I don't see much of a chance doing anything without ubuntu installed.
<agx> agoliveira, ok i'll install ubuntu normal on it 1st :) later :)
<GrueMaster> davidm: ping - I heard you may need me to test some builds this week during UDS?
<davidm> GrueMaster, yes, tomorrows/Wednesdays build looks like it will be another Beta, instead of the RC.  The RC likely will happen on Friday night/Saturday morning, but at that point no one on my team will have access to a CB unit as we all with either be in Prague or in route to there.
<GrueMaster> Ok.  Just let me know.  I'll be here from 8-5 PST all week.
<Sulvaat> Anyone here can shed a little light as to some products available with ubuntu mobile on it?
<agoliveir1> Sulvaat: Currently, none. UME wasn't released yet.
<Sulvaat> Okay, thanks.
<chemboy> i like fucking hot and sexy girls!!!!!!!!! :'(
<agx> ok i got the device booting with ubuntu, it seems its running a VIA video card the default driver openchrome isn't working (blank screen) probably it cannot detect the right monitor. Using vesa driver works at 800x600 and the installer whine about "low graphic mode" and does not install. I booted from live-cd, fixed xorg.conf and installing again using the GUI at 800x600... probably i 've to use some other X driver or some special device c
<agx> the device is an Amtek T770 called "Evonbook T2"
<stgraber> agx: Looking at the description of your problem, I don't think you are using Ubuntu UME. If you are using standard Ubuntu on mobile devices, please use standard support channels like #ubuntu
<stgraber> agx: this channel is for Ubuntu Mobile and Embeded project which you can read more about following the links in the topic of this channel
<agx> stgraber, ok but yesterday someone told me to keep you informed about devices progress :)
<agx> good night :)
<persia> That was me.  Knowing that the video driver doesn't work even with default Ubuntu likely indicates there's a heap of work to be done before it that device would be supported by Ubuntu Mobile.
<stgraber> hmm, sorry about that, his message didn't seem related to UME testing at first sight ...
<persia> stgraber: No, and I'm not sure your response was incorrect without context :)
<persia> Personally, while the development focus is entirely on a certain class of machines, I'd like to see Ubuntu Mobile work on nearly any device for which the user would prefer the interface, from handhelds to refrigerators.
<stgraber> yes, unfortunately for most mobile devices that would mean porting Ubuntu to ARM
<persia> stgraber: Like http://mojo.handhelds.org/ ?  I think I've also a Super-H handheld around, but don't expect support for that any time soon (and perhaps never, given CPU/memory requirements).
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-05-13
<dijenerate> hi all
<dijenerate> has anyone tested this on the Vaio UX as yet?
<dijenerate> where can I get the latest build and how do I install
<dijenerate> I guess I should have asked if anyone is alive here and if anyone actually runs this from anything other than a flash drive
<jsg> Hi, do any of you know if there will be some official canonical phones (pre-installed) that can be ordered working out-of-the-box
<davmor2> jsg: Mobile isn't for phone yet it is just for Intel based mids (Mobile Internet Devices)
<jsg> ok - will it be for phones later on?
<davmor2> pass
<jsg> OK
<jsg> thx
<davmor2> cgregan: No the apps are still not tallying with the icons :(
<cgregan> Please ping StevenK to see if he can figure out what is going on with your help
<davmor2> StevenK: ping
<davmor2> cgregan: the top row in all mode are right it's just the rest :)
<cgregan> davmor2: Strange....I would think either they were all screwed up, or non-are.
<davmor2> cgregan: exactly :)  did you get yesterdays menlow image?
<cgregan> Steven might be offline at this point. He is in Sydney. I can catch up with him during his Wed morning.
<davmor2> cgregan: I got a couple hours of catchup to do tonight so I'll make it latter than earlier
<cgregan> davmor2: Ok...review the apps that you have access to from Home/All or try launching from terminal
<davmor2> cgregan: did you get yesterdays image in the end?
<cgregan> davmor2: Yes....In the process of re-building it for the Jax device
<davmor2> okay :)  If you find it has OO.o on it try it out I'm guessing you'll get the /%U does not exist error that me and stgraber are getting too.
<Hobbsee> cgregan: he should still be here somewhere.
<Hobbsee> more to the point, there somewhere.
<cgregan> davmor2: Actually...OOo should not even show up on the desktop
<cgregan> davmor2: Only the office document viewer "treb" should be there
<agoliveira> davmor2: Hi. I just saw your bug OO bug but I'm tending to make it invalid as OO is not to be used as a standalone application for UME. It's there for the sole porpouse of read MS office files using treb.
<agoliveira> cgregan: You just beat me :)
 * cgregan has mad launchpad ninja skills!
<agoliveira> As a matter of fact, the idea is to pull out OO's filters eventually and remove the rest of the package.
<davmor2> agoliveira: why then can I access it at all?
<agoliveira> davmor2: The binary is there but it shouldn't have any icons pointing to them.
<agoliveira> davmor2: What image/platform are you using?
<davmor2> agoliveira: http://www.davmor2.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/OO.o.png
<davmor2> from the icon on the desktop
<davmor2> it's in the bug.  Menlow.mic.tar.bz2 on xephyr.  Builds are 20080512/13/beta4
<agoliveira> davmor2: Did you build this using MIC?
<davmor2> yes
<davmor2> agoliveira: and using the terminal command ume-xephyr-start to boot it up
<agoliveira> davmor2: That's weird. Let me see something.
<davmor2> agoliveira: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/UMEScreenshots?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=main-screen.png is a shot of yesterday's desktop that I'm using for the testing wiki
<davmor2> agoliveira: any ideas on bug 229610  While I'm online still
<StevenK> I don't see how m-b-f would show all of those entires
<davmor2> StevenK: would you like to know how many icon I get in total on the desktop?
<agoliveira> davmor2: I just updated my Q1 and, as expected, the OO icons are not there. I don't see any OO files on PPA so I have no idea why they are showing up for you.
<davmor2> agoliveira: and stgraber from wednesdays version
<StevenK> davmor2: More than the 25 I get?
<davmor2> StevenK: I get 40
<davmor2> agoliveira: the Q1 version is that the samsung version?
<agoliveira> davmor2: Yes. I have the image from cdimage installed on it.
<davmor2> agoliveira: hang on a second
<davmor2> agoliveira: Right I'm using the menlow image here is a shot of the setup in mic.  http://www.davmor2.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ss-mic.png
<agoliveira> davmor2: I can only think that someone from intel or MSG made this change. I'm quite sure wasn't us.
<StevenK> But I've been using the dailes, and they don't have the same bug.
<davmor2> StevenK: actually I get 42 images
<agoliveira> StevenK: Yep. Just updated mine.
<agoliveira> StevenK: I can only think that Intel has being naughty.
<davmor2> StevenK: are you running in xephyr though? 
<davmor2> 47 even I'll get it right in a minute :(
<StevenK> davmor2: Nope. Which makes me think it's Xephyr specific
<davmor2> http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/moblin/hardy/menlow/20080513/menlow.mic.tar.bz2  this is the image I am downloading
<davmor2> using even
<davmor2> will the mccaslin version run in mic?
<davmor2> brb
<agoliveira> davmor2: Yes, it should.
<agoliveira> StevenK: But why would they show up in Xephyr and not on the device? Weird...
<StevenK> Exactly my thought.
 * agoliveira still thinks that Intel is playing a rule here :)
<davmor2> right I'm downloading the mccaslin version I'll let you know if there is a difference in about an hour 
<seppolie> hi, works ubutu mobile on sony ereicsson k800i? an how can i download or install?
<agoliveira> seppolie: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/FAQ
<seppolie> agoliveira, thnx
<davmor2> back :)
<davmor2> StevenK: agoliveira: so you guys are both using the mccaslin version on your q1's is that correct?
<StevenK> The Menlow images won't work on Q1U
<agoliveira> davmor2: Yes, it's the version that works on the Q1.
<davmor2> okay cool so the difference might be in that rather than with it being xephyr then.
<davmor2> would the randomness with the icons be xephyr though?
<agoliveira> davmor2: In theory there should be no difference betweek using on Xephyr and on the hardware. The only thing I can think of to see this is to take this image you're testing and install it on a real device.
<davmor2> agoliveira: no device or I would.
<davmor2> However I'm wondering now if the weirdness with the icons not tallying up with the apps might be down to it being menlow too so I'll check that out at the same time.
<agoliveira> davmor2: Well, I don't have any menlow devices here as well, sorry.
<martii> hi guys
<martii> I was wondering if ubuntu mobile is just for mobiles or eeepc is good target as well?
<davmor2> bugger slow band has kicked in :(
<lool> martii: We don't target the eeepc, but we would be happy to support it
<agoliveira> martii: UME is *not* for phones: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/FAQ
<davmor2> cgregan: on a plus side liferea is working :)
<cgregan> :-)
<davmor2> in fact most of the apps I've found work fine :)
<Bert_2> hi, anybody here ?
<GrueMaster> nope
<Bert_2> lol
<GrueMaster> :)
<GrueMaster> what's up?
<Bert_2> well, moblin-image-creator and xephyr seem to hate me
<GrueMaster> heh.  I avoid xephyr.  Too many headaches, not enough return.  I prefer vnc.
<Bert_2> I first made a standard project and target and tried to run it but I get an error, and then I tried the moblin image I have and that doesn't show after processing
<Bert_2> GrueMaster: the documentation didn't say anything about vnc
<Bert_2> how do you get things running then ?
<GrueMaster> oops, I meant virtual box.  And no, there is no documentation that I know of.
<Bert_2> can you get it working in virtualbox ?
<Bert_2> how ?
<GrueMaster> Yes, but it isn't easy.  You need to make your own image.  Modifying the live usb might work.
<GrueMaster> I have only done it a couple of times (lack of time on my end - I spend most of my days on real platforms.
<Bert_2> but does it work with the virtual hardware of virtualbox ?
<GrueMaster> The only thing that doesn't work is the video driver.
<GrueMaster> Everything else can be simulated.
<Bert_2> well, I'm very curious, I especially want to know if it works on the eeePC, cause I would love to run UME on it
<GrueMaster> You can run the image on the Eee PC.  Just use McCaslin as your platform base.  There is some minor tweaks from there, as the Eee doesn't have a touch screen.
<Bert_2> well, the 900 has one
<Bert_2> and I hope to buy one in June
<GrueMaster> OOOOO!
<Bert_2> didn't you know that
<Bert_2> have you been living under a rock the last month ?
<GrueMaster> Is that going to be Atom based?  I haven't had a chance to read the specs.
<GrueMaster> well, since you asked...
<Bert_2> right now it's Celeron, but in Juni/July the atom version will be there
<GrueMaster> Then it will be Menlow based (as far as MIC is concerned).
<martii> agoliveira: OK but what if I'd like to help you to support it?
<Bert_2> well GrueMaster that sounds very easy indeed :D
<Bert_2> GrueMaster: say, what is the precise aim of the UME-project, cause the wiki isn't very uniform
<GrueMaster> The current goals are geared around the upcoming Intel Atom based MID products.  There has been a lot of press lately on these handheld units.  Check youtube for some video from one of the trade shows.
<GrueMaster> The McCaslin platform is any ultra-mobile device on earlier technology, specifically the Samsung Q1 Ultra (the Eee uses similar components).
<GrueMaster> McCaslin is currently being used as a development platform for the next gen products due to the similarities (x86, touch screen, mobile, etc).
<Bert_2> GrueMaster: sounds very interesting, I'll check it out soon, but now I have to go
<Bert_2> thank you for your help ;)
<GrueMaster> Check out moblin.org as well.
<davmor2> yay mccaslin just finished :)
<davmor2> Okay things just got bizzarer I just tried the mccaslin image and it is identical to the menlow image in it's brokeness
<davmor2> so it looks like it's an xephyr issue
<agoliveira> martii: Well, just join the launchpad group, mailing lists and go for it :)
<davmor2> agoliveira: I got no idea why the OO.o stuff is showing up in xephyr but not on hardware.
<agoliveira> davmor2: Did you try the same umc-generated mcaslin image on Xephyr and Q1?
<davmor2> I don't have a Q1
<davmor2> But I'm going to guess that if it is not showing up on any of your Q1's that it's xephyr
<davmor2> we definitely need a better virtual way to test the images :)
<agoliveira> davmor2: Just in case, I'll cook up a brand new image here and install on my Q1.
<davmor2> I got a feeling that the issue with the mislinking icon - app might be caused by the same issue too if it isn't playing up on your system.
<agoliveira> davmor2: I was thinking that maybe one of the symlinks that mic does is the culprit.
<davmor2> agoliveira: it's definitely there though.  That's why I videoed it and it's been confirmed by stgraber who is running it in mic the same as me.
<GrueMaster> has anyone tried loading an image in VirtualBox?  The only major issue is the default video driver.
<agoliveira> davmor2, cgregan: Confirmed. If I run the same image on Xephyr I got all those weird icons. On Q1, they are not there, the same I have from running the daily. I suggest you open a bug for that and point it to Intel's direction.
<agoliveira> Ooops, there is a bug already :)
<davmor2> agoliveira: there's a bug for both
<davmor2> agoliveira: have you got the numbers or do you want them?  Also I'm wondering now if the weird buttons might be tied into it too.
<agoliveira> davmor2: My wild guess is they are related.
<davmor2> agoliveira: in that case there maybe 3 bugs that are tied in together
<agoliveira> davmor2: I just made #229957 invalid
<agoliveira> OpenOffice.org displays /%U does not exist
<agoliveira> which is also related
<davmor2> agoliveira: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/13895416/buttons%20error.png
<davmor2> do you get anything like that?
<davmor2> on hw
<agoliveira> davmor2: Hold on...
<agoliveira> davmor2: No, the dialog looks fine here.
<agoliveira> Looks like Xephyr is not a good bedtest now...
<davmor2> what about in xephyr?  In xephyr if you click on Neverputt it brings up the settings dialogue and chexk out the drop down menu
<agoliveira> davmor2: Neverput is not likely to work on Xephyr as it's a opengl applications and Xephyr does not support it.
<davmor2> agoliveira: no it is just the icon that brings up setting I told you they were screwy
<agoliveira> davmor2: On Q1 neverput works fine, sound and everything.;
<davmor2> agoliveira: Right but in xephyr it opens up the settings menu/page for the device
<agoliveira> davmor2: Forget about it. Those icons are all screwd up in Xephyr.
<davmor2> agoliveira: yes my point though is that the drop down menu on the settings page is screwy.  Which again I'm going to assume is an xephyr fault only
<agoliveira> davmor2: SO it seems as it looks fine to me.
<davmor2> okay thanks for confirming.  That's another we can put down to being xephyr
<davmor2> :)
<agoliveira> davmor2: I can only guess that one of those symliks the image creator does is mixing up gnome files into the chroot and causing this crap.
<davmor2> well there's loads of reasons that it could be I suppose but that sounds the most logical :)
<davmor2> anyway I'm off see you tomorrow :)
<agoliveira> davmor2: Bye,
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-05-14
<dholbach> good morning
<davmor2> guys can you check something out for me please.  I wrote a bug about the user not having /usr/games in their path.  I think I know why now.  By default xephyr sets you up as user root this user doesn't have /usr/bin in their path however user ume does which is why I think you guys get it but xephyr people don't
<lool> davmor2: I personally run Xephyr as ume, not as root and it's much saner; but the current Xephyr approach is a big hack, we should move away from this
<lool> davmor2: One option is to use vms; mvo started a script to create such vms
<lool> brz branch lp:~mvo/ubuntu-mobile/simple-image-builder
<davmor2> lool: Yeah I know now I hadn't bothered looking before :)
<agoliveira> Not only a hack but Xephyr, in it's current form, is becoming a problem. Me davmor2 and cgregan spent quite some time figuring out that bunch of "false" icons and associated bugs.
<lool> Please don't use Xephyr; I stopped doing so a while ago; it really sucks too much
<lool> It's extremely time consuming to set it up properly
<davmor2> agoliveira: you got a device haven't you?
<agoliveira> davmor2: Yes I do and I know that you don't so currently is the only way for you to test.
<agoliveira> davmor2: Well, I have a Q1 only, no CB boards.
<davmor2> agoliveira: No I was going to ask you if you have tried out Ekiga yet.  cgregan just tried he could hear me but I couldn't get hear him so looks like there might be an issue there
<agoliveira> davmor2: Oh, I just looked at the camera issue but didn't actually used for anything.
<agoliveira> davmor2: Did he check the micrpophone levels? Did the initial test worked?
<davmor2> agoliveira: Camera apart you switch that off
<agoliveira> davmor2: I beg your pardon?
<davmor2> agoliveira: Sorry not good English.  I mean you can ignore the camera it can be switched off.
<davmor2> agoliveira: I'll ask cgregan after if he uped the volume on the mic.  But I would guess he did.
<agoliveira> davmor2: Yes it can. I meant that there was a bug that the camera didn't work and I saw it does on Q1 at least - I mean, an external camera. There's no driver for Q1's 
<davmor2> agoliveira: Ah right
<agoliveira> davmor2: There's a test that ekiga does that let you loop back the mic and phones so you can hear yourself.
<davmor2> agoliveira: Yes loop back test 500@ekiga.net  That's how I set mine up correctly.
<davmor2> agoliveira: However it doesn't work at all in xephyr no mic no speaker.  So I was just using my standard Ekiga on my desktop.
<agoliveira> davmor2: I see. Well, in this case he has to test on the device as well and se if there's no problem on his side.
<agoliveira> cgregan: ^^^^^
<stgraber> davmor2: I guess you would have to kill pulseaudio before you can get ekiga to work with Xephyr
<stgraber> davmor2: the ekiga running in the chroot can't access the local pulseaudio which is probably locking the mic/speaker
<davmor2> stgraber: no it works on my desktop.  I have never had sound in xephyr
<davmor2> agoliveira: On a plus side most of the apps are working correctly.
<agoliveira> davmor2: Nice :) Thanks for the help, BTW.
<davmor2> Even though I'm needing to start them from command line :)
<Zic> lool: hello, I know I already asked about this, but I need more info about "switching to another engine" on UME : you told me to take a look at /etc/hildon-desktop, but what can I modify in this directory to switch to another engine ?
<lool> /etc/hildon-desktop/home-layout.conf points to /usr/share/applications/hildon-home/mobile-basic-home.desktop for example
<lool> Zic: Start by reading desktop.conf, it describes which plugins to load
<Zic> ok, thanks :)
<davmor2> agoliveira: Just a quicky this is probably another issue with xephyr.  On doc reader I select a doc to open and I get another window popup infront but there are no buttons on it etc so I can't close it.  Do you get that on the device at all?
<agoliveira> davmor2: Can you send me the document you're trying to see. Maybe it's a conversion bug.
<cgregan> ï»¿agoliveira: Hey..you caught me during lunch
<davmor2> agoliveira: I created one by doing ls /usr/bin > app-list.txt
<agoliveira> davmor2: Ah, makes sense. You're not using treb 0.9 are you?
<agoliveira> davmor2: Does the interface have a combo to select the file type?
<davmor2> It's okay I think I know why it's bleedin' evince opening up.
<davmor2> so treb is the office reader thing is it?
<davmor2> agoliveira: 
<Zic> lool: ok, I understood how it works, by default, there is no other engine installed, do you know if the engine which works with Clutter is available on repository ?
<davmor2> agoliveira: oh it is that one after all.
<davmor2> agoliveira: thought I was going mad
<davmor2> brb tea
<agoliveira> davmor2: Exactly. Treb is a laucnher that uses OO to convert MS office documents into PDFs and pass them to evince to display.
<agoliveira> (or "for displaying"? Hmmm...)
<lool> Zic: It is available from multiple places, the ppa to start with
<lool> moblin-clutter-home
<Zic> Yes, I have just finded the correct name of the package, "moblin-clutter-home"
<Zic> thanks :)
<Zic> hmm, I can load it with desktop-launcher -w, but not as an applet into UME like mobile basic ui
<Zic> I want something like this : http://www.ubuntu.com/files/u1/clutter-small.jpg, but I can't add home clutter applet via home_ap_view>home_me_select_applet
<davmor2> agoliveira: back right what the command to get the version number for treb
<Zic> or, like in the screenshot, via menu on the top panel
<Zic> an other question (sorry :)) : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/EmailUI are these just mockup ?
<agoliveira> davmor2: apt-cache show treb
<agoliveira> Zic: Yes, they are
<Zic> is there any plan to work on UI of claws-mail ?
<agoliveira> Zic: Nothing specific but UDS is coming so we may discuss that.
<Zic> ok, thanks
<Zic> because, for now to me, apps on UME are like apps on Maemo Platform : they seems not finger playable
<Zic> just computer apps (and, in reality, it just what it is on Embedded platform based on GMAE actually)
<Zic> except for the browser, nice work on both side :)
<agoliveira> Zic: Yes, for now it's what they look like. We still have a lot of work to do on that.
<Zic> I am sad not to be familiarized with integration GTK / Hildon sometimes:)
<Zic> (to play with UI integration of embedded devices)
<Zic> I must to leave, bye, and thanks for your help
<davmor2> agoliveira: yes it's treb 0.9 
<agoliveira> davmor2: And you're able to open any files? Did I add a * filter by mistake? :P
<davmor2> agoliveira: no I created a txt file and I get a blank window in front of it want a screen shot to make it easier to understand
<agoliveira> davmor2: It's not I'm asking about. I modified treb so you can't open any files that are not MS office's they should not show up into treb's interface that's why I'm asking how did you select it.
<agoliveira> davmor2: Let me make a test, hold on, please.
<agoliveira> do a test, actually...
 * agoliveira is tired...
<davmor2> agoliveira: do what I did ls /usr/bin > app-list.txt
<davmor2> quick easy text file
<davmor2> http://www.davmor2.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/weird1.png
<agoliveira> davmor2: No need. I know what I've done
<davmor2> okay cool
<agoliveira> davmor2: As I suspected, I added a "all files" filter as well (which actually means no filter at all) and you're trying to open a .txt which messes with openoofice's conversion process.
<agoliveira> davmor2: I'll open a bug to modify this.
<davmor2> agoliveira: No Prabs happy to help :)
<agoliveira> davmor2: Sure and thanks!
<davmor2> agoliveira: out of curiosity what app is being used for .txt files and the like?#
<agoliveira> davmor2: Well, one can use the mousepad but there's no file association AFAIK.
<davmor2> agoliveira: okay no probs
<davmor2> agoliveira: is the pim stuff in place and should it work against the clock/calendar?
<agoliveira> davmor2: For now it's standalone, not integrated with the clock applet.
<davmor2> so the pim includes contacts and tasks anything else?
<davmor2> agoliveira: can you try something for me.  I just tried running claws-mail from cli and nothing happened but it will run from desktop icon.  Bit concerning
<agoliveira> davmor2: Hold on.
<agoliveira> davmor2: Looks like a permission problem when trying to bind on /tmp but, anyway, no program is supposed to be run from the console so it's not a problem actually.
<davmor2> agoliveira: okay No probs
<davmor2> agoliveira: is gnash not plugged into the midbrowser by default?
<agoliveira> davmor2: I dont think so.
<davmor2> agoliveira: right so no flash on xephyr it dies trying to install
<agoliveira> davmor2: Have you tried adobe's plugin?
<davmor2> yes just jotting down the error message for you now :)
<davmor2> agoliveira: Error reads.  MidBrowser could not install this item because "install-ccx..rdf" (provided by the item) is not well formed or does not exist.  Please contact the author about this problem.
<agoliveira> davmor2: I have no idea what that means. Maybe asac can help?
<davmor2> asac: ping
<asac> yes?
<asac> yeah ... its adobes fault (i assume its installing flash)
<asac> use ubufox ;)
<davmor2> asac: It is indeed not up to me or I would :)
<asac> story is that the .xpi installer provided on adobe website uses a really old mechanism that predates firefox
<davmor2> asac: mind you when I saw that gnash was installed I'd of thought that the plugin would of been in too so you got youtube working at least :)
<asac> huh? so gnash isn't working?
<davmor2> asac: That's friggin' useful then :)
<davmor2> asac: when I click on a youtube vid it says plugin missing across the top at which point it tries to install flash from adobe
<asac> with gnash installed?
<asac> do you see gnash in about:plugins
<asac> ?
<davmor2> asac: http://www.davmor2.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/plugins.png
<asac> davmor2: yeah ... about:plugins?
<asac> not there as well?
<asac> is gnash installed?
<davmor2> asac: ah right sorry with you
<davmor2> hang on
<asac> update-alternatives --list xulrunner-addons-flashplugin
<asac> and update-alternatives --config xulrunner-addons-flashplugin
<asac> if you are sure gnash is the current alternative ... it should work ;)
<davmor2> asac: mozplugger contains loads but no flash
<davmor2> update-alternatives command not found.
<davmor2> I'm off now anyway I
<davmor2> it's getting late bye
<dijenerate> anyone here using a Vaio UX?
<dijenerate> I need a little help with Monday's build
<asac> any hard freezes on ubuntu-mobile archive right now? need to update xulrunner to include the critical fix we rolled to hardy-updates
<asac> if noone raises hands i will upload. should be low risk
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-05-15
<asac> lool: there?
<asac> i will upload language-pack-gnome-zh_8.04+20080415ubuntu1.804ume_source.changes to mobile ppa ... which includes the midbrowser translations for zh for now
<dholbach> good morning
<kennyyu> hi there, just wish to know if there is any proposed plan for adapting mobile-firefox on a really small-screen device e.g. a screen of 320-pixel width?
<z1o> kennyyu: I think ubuntu mobile is using a firefox derivative
<z1o> kennyyu: but I didnt have that close a look at it
<kennyyu> z1o: nvm :)
<z1o> kennyyu: got it figured out?
<kennyyu> z1o: not yet... well, wait i'm rebooting my PC
<z1o> o/
<lool> asac: Build is out since two days; next delivery Friday
<lool> hopefully
<davmor2> Right I'm beginning a test on todays image.  Yes I'm still using xephyr in mic but I know a lot of the differences to look out for now :)
<davmor2> are there any bugs that should be fixed now that you want to keep an eye out for?
<lool> EPARSE
<lool> persia: Around?
<lool> persia: If you are, we have the week phone call
<persia> OK.  I thought it was cancelled this week.
<lool> persia: Nah, it's run by me, which is worse
<lool> persia: thanks
<davmor2> Has anyone had any joy getting gnash to work on UME?
<Laibsch> Hi
<Laibsch> How do ubuntu mobile and handhelds mojo compare?
<Laibsch> Not trying to compare state-of-affairs, but more the perspective and potential
<suihkulokki> Laibsch: mojo is regular ubuntu for arm cpu's, ubuntu mobile is special ubuntu flavour for intel cpu's
<Laibsch> Second question, the FAQ claims that Zaurus are not supported because of the need for proprietary binaries.  I just added a note that this is not true.
<Laibsch> suihkulokki: My impression was that you also try to adapt better the UI experience
<Laibsch> Am I mistaken?
<suihkulokki> Laibsch: that's what the "special flavour" basicly means
<Laibsch> Yes, but you say for intel
<Laibsch> mojo targets arm
<Laibsch> Question is if they also will likely have that special flavour
<suihkulokki> there is no UME for arm (afaik) (atleast yet)
<Laibsch> suihkulokki: Sorry, I did not read carefully enough
<Laibsch> OK
<suihkulokki> who knows, why wait, just do it :)
<Laibsch> Zaurus is arm
<Laibsch> suihkulokki: I'd love to
<Laibsch> But I don't have an intel-based handheld
<Laibsch> And I don't want to buy one
<Laibsch> I'd be interested if the Zaurus can be supported though
<Laibsch> I have some background from openembedded.org, but I am not a regular developper by profession
<suihkulokki> it should not be hard to adapt Ubuntu Mobile UI etc changes to handhelds mojo (or debian/armel)
<Laibsch> that is the route you suggest as more promising?
<Laibsch> Are those UI changes in available in normal ubuntu as well?  Have you pushed that back?
<suihkulokki> disclaimer, I'm only lurking here, I'm actually working on debian/armel
<Laibsch> Are you plannign to
<Laibsch> ?
<suihkulokki> Laibsch: afaik (again I'm not authority here..) most changes go back to normal ubuntu (under lpia arch), but ubuntu and ubuntu mobile timetables are different
<Laibsch> suihkulokki: Is UME cross-compiled or natively?
<dijenerate> hi all
<dijenerate> anyone awake in here?
<agoliveira> dijenerate: Yes, it's a bit past noon for me :)
<dijenerate> ok, finally a living soul :)
<dijenerate> have you used the UME build on anything other than the Samsung or another official test unit?
<GrueMaster> I'm just working on waking up.
<dijenerate> I'm trying to setup a Vaio UX with UME
<dijenerate> I'm using last monday's build for the Samsung Q1U but ran into some problems
<dijenerate> I only just realize how stripped the kernel is for UME
<dijenerate> not even the usbserial module is present
<dijenerate> anyone here have a clue what I'm talking about?
<GrueMaster> That's odd.  I can understand stripping unnecessary things like scsi raid, but usb devices should be supported.
<GrueMaster> I haven't tested the latest Q1 images, though.  My main focus is on the melow platform integration.
<dijenerate> well usb mass storage is and most common periphs are 
<dijenerate> but there is no usbserial which the vaio needs for its WWAN to work in linux
<dijenerate> I also could not find the evtouch driver that's needed for the touchscreen to work
<davmor2> agoliveira: Under multimedia do you have gnash swf viewer?  If so does it work?
<GrueMaster> The evtouch should be there, but it may only be available to the menlow platform.
<dijenerate> considering this is supposed to be a 'touch' friendly version of ubuntu, I find that ironic
<GrueMaster> you might for grins try a menlow image, but you will need to change teh graphics driver in xorg.conf.
<agoliveira> davmor2: No, I don't. I suppose it's another of those weird Xephyr icons?
<dijenerate> and I think I was doing something wrong with the udev config
<GrueMaster> Currently, this image is under development, and focused on two specific pieces of hardware.  Future revisions may widen the scope of the project, but you need to start somewhere.
<davmor2> agoliveira: That might explain why it isn't working properly too then :)
<dijenerate> was trying to map the touchscreen and WWAN to specific IDs and lost pointer support after startup
<agoliveira> davmor2: I would say it's a fair assumption ;)
<dijenerate> so what is the eta for the first stable release of UME?
<GrueMaster> Not sure, but it should be soon.  The products that it is designed for are launching soon.
<dijenerate> because it seems like there is really a lot still to be done considering it was just supposed to be an optimized  branch off standard ubuntu desktop
<dijenerate> ...and are all atom based I take it
<dijenerate> atom is so much crud
<GrueMaster> Right now, my understanding is that it is a base image for OEMs to work from.
<dijenerate> I just saw the fujitsu announce an atom based follow up to the U810
<GrueMaster> Yes, atom is the target currently.
<dijenerate> basically, it's an upgrade from a system powered by a remote control's CPU to one powered by a calculator's CPU
<GrueMaster> Actually, you'd be surprised at the atom's capabilities.
<dijenerate> I truely would like to be
<dijenerate> I'm coming from the world of Core Solo on the Vaio UX, anything I replace it with has to outperform it
<dijenerate> can Atom do that?
<GrueMaster> It's hard to visualize by looking at the specs, but it really is something to see.  Wish I could give more detail.
<dijenerate> rough comparison, how does a full atom system under linux compare to a Vaio UX or Q1 Utra Premium?
<GrueMaster> I think the core solo is probably going to give you more performance, but then the package size is radically different.  So is the power usage.
<dijenerate> even though processors are faster and more powerful, we don't often use their full potential on mobile devices, so my question should really be, will I notice the difference?
<GrueMaster> I only have the Q1, and I can say atom performs quite well side by side.  Of course, my atom test units are 1/2 to 1/3 the size and weight.
<dijenerate> between say the Sharp D4 or Fujitsu U2010 and the Q1UP or Vaio UX
<dijenerate> ok
<dijenerate> but how is battery life because A110 did not live up to promise
<dijenerate> is this Q1 as in the Pentium M no-keyboard system or A110 (stealey) Q1Utra?
<GrueMaster> Not sure.  I don't have the means to test that.  I've been told (and some videos on youtube confirm) that it is ~4 hours.
<GrueMaster> I have both Q1 versions.  The original Ultra, and the "Vista" models.
<GrueMaster> I think they both have the same core, just more memory, keyboard, hdd, etc for the Vista model.
<dijenerate> so the Atom performs on par with the A110 at 800MHz?
<dijenerate> that's bad... that's really bad, because the A110 in my experience is weak
<GrueMaster> yes, but in a far smaller package.
<dijenerate> yeah, but a bigger calculator vs a smaller calculator is still a calculator trying to decode divx video
<dijenerate> lol
<GrueMaster> It really depends on what you are doing.  If you are running RC5 or Seti, then you probably won't like it.
<GrueMaster> Video wise it is much better.  There is hardware decoding.
<dijenerate> usually I have my machine on all day, doing everything I use without shutting down... the Vaio is poor on battery life so that annoys me hence I'm looking for a replacement
<GrueMaster> I looked at the vaio.  It's hugh compared with the units I have.  
<dijenerate> in ubuntu, I have compiz fusion running, thunderbird open, Xchat, amsn, pidgin, kbasket, firefox, opera, skype, gammu, system monitors and 9 desktops on gnome
<GrueMaster> That's more of a desktop usage model vs what these are designed for.
<dijenerate> the vaio performs adequately with this just has bad battery life and a tad small screen for its rez
<dijenerate> I know, but that's what I really want, my desktop in my pocket
<dijenerate> with me all day
<GrueMaster> I don't have any insights on what systems will look like with Atom, but I know some of them are for a market looking for a smaller platform.
<dijenerate> if I wanted smartphone power, I'd buy a nokia internet tablet and run frisky
<dijenerate> I'm all for smaller and longer battery but not at the cost of performance
<dijenerate> so that's where my issue with them comes from
<GrueMaster> Like I said, there is a wide market for this product.  I only see the smallest units.
<dijenerate> it's pointless to me to build a machine that is barely faster than a 'arm' based system like the Zaurus or nokia Internet tablet but still needs the ventilation of a regular x86
<dijenerate> and therefore can't be kept on in a pocket
<GrueMaster> I have heard that some OEMs will have units similar in size to yours running at full throttle.  The smaller units run slower due to heat and smaller battery size.
<dijenerate> my view may be a bit different from the mass market view of course
<GrueMaster> heh.  Everyone has a different view that marketing.
<GrueMaster> s/that/than
<dijenerate> yeah, but 1.8GHz atom benched next to a 1.8GHz celeron still got creamed
<GrueMaster> Again, what was the usage model?
<dijenerate> portable device, subnotebook
<dijenerate> class
<GrueMaster> I mean application usage?
<dijenerate> netbook class so design for mobile web in a ulcpc
<GrueMaster> If you are looking to run Doom3, your sol.  If you want to view office documents or browse the web, you're good.
<dijenerate> I get that, but apart from the size issues which don't even count if you consider that a celeron can also be made at a smaller process, what's the point of new processor that is slower than one they made 5 years ago
<dijenerate> seems like regression to me and if it's just for office docs and web, why not use a TI OMAP or Xscale again like the Nokia tablets or the sharp zaurus
<GrueMaster> Again, by what benchmark?  I haven't actually seen any reviews or comparisons.
<dijenerate> again regression
<GrueMaster> not necessarily.  XScale or OMAP can't run x86 applications.
<GrueMaster> Try loading Vista on a Nokia 800 series.
<GrueMaster> Or flash for that matter.
<dijenerate> these are 1.6GHz CPUs compared http://www.umpcportal.com/postimages/AtomCPUperformancefigures_EB03/atomperf.jpg
<lool> Well there's flash, no?
<dijenerate> but why will I need vista if I can run my web and office apps on a faster to respond more stable OS
<dijenerate> does the OS matter as much as it's ability to run the apps you need
<dijenerate> the point of Vista is to make MS money, the point of the OS for the consumer today is to run the apps
<suihkulokki> I doubt running vista is a argument that will shift attitudes positively in the audience of this channel =)
<GrueMaster> True.  One thing your image doesn't show is power consumption or heat dissipation. 
<dijenerate> if the apps run on linux on less and for less, then what's the point of vista and by extension the point of atom?
<GrueMaster> Let me ask this.  What is the cpu load playing mpeg2/mpeg4/vc1 video on the different systems?
<dijenerate> well the Via is a low power consumer and unless intel has drastically changed it's core design they are still consuming more power than everyone else as they have always been
<lool> dijenerate: The power consumptions of Intel CPUs are supposed to decrease further in the future; the platforms are also bigger irons than the ARM platforms right now
<lool> But apart of that I agree that ARM is a good option :)
<dijenerate> dedicated registers for popular media will always lower cpu load values, oldest CPU design trick in the book
<dijenerate> however, what's the load when editing a 12 workbook excel document the office just emailed to you on your trip?
<GrueMaster> About 40%
<GrueMaster> Tried and tested
<GrueMaster> Well, using OpenOffice.  
<dijenerate> real world performance is what will tell it apart vs lab test and synthetic benching
<GrueMaster> Back to your earlier question of "why would someone want this", I have to point to a quote from the quake-aa developers (who made an ascii art video driver for Quake):  "If you have to ask, it isn't for you".
<dijenerate> it boils down to this, if a poulsbo/silverthorne 1.6GHz machine that is all that much smaller (and still only 1/3 smaller than a UX) can do what the UX does at 1.2GHz overall real-world performance, as in I'm not annoyed by the lag on my everyday tasks, then I'll sing Atom's praises, but until then, I think I'll wait until the dual core (code named: molecule)
<GrueMaster> But can you put your Vaio in your shirt pocket?
<dijenerate> yeah I can
<dijenerate> but will I want to when it has a belt case? lol
<suihkulokki> ..if you don't want to look like a dork
<dijenerate> what the atom may be able to do over the vaio if it lives up to promise is give me more than 1:20hr battery life in ubuntu
<dijenerate> suihkulokki: touche... lol
<GrueMaster> Hey, looking like a dork is every pastafarian's FSM given right.
<dijenerate> but it still isn't acceptable (for me) if it is unable to do what the vaio currently does with ease
<HappyCamp> lool, is the SSH thing a big concern for the ubuntu-mobile/moblin stuff?
<lool> IRC meeting in one minute
<lool> HappyCamp: I don't understand your question
<GrueMaster> HappyCamp:  Sort of.  I use it for debugging and live monitoring.
<HappyCamp> The SSH key issue with debian derived systems.
<lool> HappyCamp: It's a concern for any usage of the openssl random generator over the last 19 months
<lool> HappyCamp: But it's fixed in hardy and daily UME builds if that's your question
<lool> #startmeeting
<HappyCamp> I was more wondering for our use case in particular.  Do we want to try to notify people or the notification out there is enough.
<lool> Welcome all
<HappyCamp> k
<lool> HappyCamp: Feel free to add the SSH questions in today's agenda
<lool> Let me start by reviewing action items from last week
<lool> [topic] Don ï»¿Johnson to email agoliveira a list with Intel's atendees for UDS.
<dijenerate> I chose the larger Q1UP over the U810 for performance and battery life issues
<lool> Hmm no mootbot
<Don_Johnson> I sent the list to agoliveria
<lool> dijenerate: We're in a meeting; please defer your discussion to after the meeting; thanks!
<dijenerate> sorry.. np
<lool> Don_Johnson: Hmm was this recently?
<lool> Don_Johnson: He told me an hour ago that he didn't receive it
<StevenK> lool: I'm here, but still wrangling e-mail
<Don_Johnson> I thougth I sent it last week right after the meeting.
<Don_Johnson> Let me check, maybe I sent it to David and got the cc wrong.
<Don_Johnson> OK, I'll recreate the emaila and send it out.
<lool> Don_Johnson: Perhaps it's easiest if you just copy-paste it right now? :)
<Don_Johnson> As soon as I find it again. I'll do past it in.
<lool> Don_Johnson: So who are the lucky fellows who get to get to visit Prague and sit in some 8 hours flights? ;)
<lool> Don_Johnson: Ok; let's defer to the end of the meeting
<lool> [topic] UME Logo draft
<lool> I received the first drafts for the UME logo http://people.ubuntu.com/~lool/ume-logo.pdf
<lool> [link] http://people.ubuntu.com/~lool/ume-logo.pdf
<lool> I'd be pleased if you could send me suggestions for these logos
<lool> Design comments, ideas, suggestions, everything is welcome
<lool> I'm also interested in votes on these logos, tell me which you absolutely hate, and which you love
<lool> Please send me an email to one of my email addresses
<lool> When we get some consensus and pick a logo, we'll work on the colors, fonts, etc.
<StevenK> lool: And yet, with no MootBot, you still do the [] :-)
<lool> StevenK: Yeah, it helps in the log ;)
<lool> Ok; if nobody has any question on the logos I'll move on
<GrueMaster> Colors are kind of bland.
<lool> GrueMaster: This can be easily fixed; the high level design / concept should be ironed out first, then the colors can be debated ad nauseam
<GrueMaster> k
<lool> [topic] Impact fo SSH/SSL vulnerability on UME
<lool> HappyCamp: Could you restate your question?
<lool> HappyCamp: My understanding is that your question was "how does the SSL/SSH vulnerability affect UME?", correct?
<lool> So the vulnerability has been plugged in all released and development Ubuntu repositories: intrepid, hardy, gutsy, feisty
<lool> The issue was that the random number generator wasn't random (enough)
<lool> This means that any SSH session with DSA keys started from a vulnerable host during the last 18 months would expose this DSA key, and that any key (whatever type) generated in the last 18 months from a vulnerable system should be considered vulnerable
<GrueMaster> you should see how many hits my home system has taken in the last couple of days trying to exploit this.
<lool> You're encouraged to change all your SSH keys to RSA if you generated or used it on a recent Ubuntu system
<lool> I personally updated my SSH key from DSA to RSA and uploaded the new one to Launchpad, Ubuntu systems and moblin.org for example
<lool> Also, new packages to allow detection and automatic or manual blacklisting of the compromised keys have been crafted
<lool> The new packages are openssh-, openssl-, etc. -blacklist
<lool> Any question on this topic?
<lool> Concerning UME, we're not released yet but a simple upgrade or a full reinstallation will get you a non-vulnerable system
<bspencer> if I don't change my keys, what is the risk?
<bspencer> what is "vulnerable" as you described above?
<ToddBrandt> bspencer: someone could log in as you
<bspencer> and fix my bugs?
<lool> bspencer: if your key was recently created (less than 18 months ago), it's easily guessable by brute force; some people could try logging in on systems where you authorized this key with all possible keus
<ToddBrandt> and fix your bugs yes
<bspencer> ok.
<lool> Your key is also vulnerable id it's DSA, older than 18 months, but was in use on vulnerable client systems
<lool> s/id/if
<bspencer> who created the mobuntu logos?
<lool> Basically, using a DSA private key on a system where the random generator is unsafe will expose your key
<lool> bspencer: "brilliant"
<lool> bspencer: A company working for Canonical
<bspencer> k
<lool> Katie Moody worked on them to be precise
<bspencer> I should send feedback via email or now?
<lool> Via email is preferred
<bspencer> k
<lool> I should have setup a polling site, but I didn't
<lool> But I still want to compile the impressions together as it allows a general overview of the plusses and minuses of each logo
<lool> Ok; I'm personally done talking about the SSL/SSH vulnerability, but I'm happy to give further clarifications
<lool> Any other topic to bring up?
<lool> Don_Johnson: That brings us back to you
<GrueMaster> Next beta/rc release schedule?
<Don_Johnson> OK here is the list: Yong Y Wang : Server and Desktop roadmap
<Don_Johnson> John Cherry : MID planning
<Don_Johnson> Marcel Holtmann : OTC
<Don_Johnson> Adam Le
<lool> GrueMaster: Last beta was a couple of days ago; should have been a RC, but too many critical bugs; next RC is currently scheduled for Friday /I think/; but that's a tentative date, I don't know whether StevenK is in good conditions to work on the build this week
<lool> Don_Johnson: You might want paste.ubuntu.com if your list is long
<Don_Johnson> Unfortunately it is not long.
<StevenK> I have spent 32 hours travelling, and I lost my bags. Not today.
<GrueMaster> Reason I asked is that I really didn't see any core changes.  Namely video drivers and helix support.
<lool> So these four persons?
<GrueMaster> stevenk:  sorry to hear that.
<Don_Johnson> yes, those four, are it.
<lool> StevenK: We're Thursday though :)
<lool> GrueMaster: Video drivers have been updated yesterday night and are being tested
<StevenK> GrueMaster: I don't think either of them released a new version in between beta4 and beta5?
<StevenK> If they did, no one told me.
<lool> StevenK: The kernel graphics drivers did change, amitk merged them yesterday night
<GrueMaster> No, but beta 5 didn't have the latest video drivers, which have been available for over a week.
<lool> StevenK: They are being tested by pmcgowan and amitk
<GrueMaster> That's why I asked.
<StevenK> The video drivers certainly didn't change from beta9 in the PPA when I rolled beta5
<GrueMaster> Should be build 2.0.0.32L.0014
<StevenK> GrueMaster: Could I get e-mailed when they get updated?
<lool> StevenK: I think it's the release version (PV), so you shouldn't get many updates anymore :)
<GrueMaster> I'm not sure who posts them on arms, but I can see.
<StevenK> Right.
<StevenK> I'll hit up David when he arrives.
<lool> StevenK: i forwarded you davidm's email on this release
<Don_Johnson> Generally I notify David and PatM when something is posted to ARMS. 
<lool> StevenK: Ask davidm to notify you when he gets Don_Johnson's notification
<lool> Don_Johnson: And as a safety, I'm happy if you tell me
<Don_Johnson> OK, I'll expend the list
<StevenK> lool: I am working through the 600 e-mail I got while flying here
<lool> Don_Johnson: In fact, you could directly mail all of us by mailing either the public list or the Canonical private list mobile@lists.canonical.com
<StevenK> Work e-mail, of which there is 120, is next
<GrueMaster> On that note, Don and I would both be happy if someone tells us when there is a release.
<lool> Don_Johnson: (you might get an email that your post is moderated)
<GrueMaster> :)
<StevenK> Hm. I thought David did that.
<GrueMaster> I haven't seen anything (unless he's selling viagra).
<Don_Johnson> Generally David does notify us.  But the Beta5 slipped by, 
<StevenK> I'm suspecting due to UDS looming
<Don_Johnson> David did tell me on the phone that there would be a Beta5, but not when it was posted.  I agree due to UDS prep.
<StevenK> Don_Johnson: Happy yo bring it up with him when I see him, if you wish.
<StevenK> s/yo/to/
<StevenK> (I hate .cz -> .au lag)
<Don_Johnson> Not a problem. I happended to check about an hour after it was posted. So no harm.
<StevenK> Excellent sense of timing there, Don_Johnson :-)
<StevenK> "I sense a disturbance in the Force ... Ahh yes, Beta5 is out." :-P
<Don_Johnson> ARMS notification: currently Steve Magoun, David Mandala, Pat M, and Loic have ARMS accounts and should recieve notices.  Although it is hard to figure out which ones to care about.
<GrueMaster> He has one of those lark thingys.
<lool> Don_Johnson: I didn't receive a notice, but I didn't subscribe to any either
<Don_Johnson> Should I add StevenK to list of people with ARMS accounts?
<lool> Don_Johnson: I guess I have to subscribe
<StevenK> Don_Johnson: I'd rather not have an ARMS account, and I can't update the 3D drivers until the 2D ones are anyway
<Don_Johnson> Still hard to figure out which ARMS notices to care about. I'll send out UME specific notices and include you and StevenK.
<GrueMaster> It shoudl be posted as one big package.
<StevenK> GrueMaster: Sure, but we don't use the 2D drivers as included in that package.
<Don_Johnson> stevenk: Ok I'll leave ARMS accounts as they are now.
<GrueMaster> The package should have the 2D source.  It should be able to drop into the current build environment.
<lool> Ok, we're discussing many things at the same time here
<lool> Don_Johnson: I thought you were sending the notifications to email addresses; if you can't do that, I think we should tell davidm to make sure our internal mailing list or list of people gets the notification when he does
<StevenK> GrueMaster: I just play with 3D. Other people work on 2D.
<GrueMaster> k
<Don_Johnson> lool, I will start maintaining a list of people at Canonical to pass notices along to.
<lool> Don_Johnson: That's nice of you; the public or Canonical mailing-lists are IMO good choices
<lool> It will simplify both your and our maintenance of this list I guess
<lool> Ok; any other business for today?
<Don_Johnson> OK, I'll look at using them
<lool> Closing the meeting then
<lool> I wish attendees a safe trip to UDS
<lool> #endmeeting
 * GrueMaster wishes he could attend.
<StevenK> GrueMaster: The person you should have begged just left? :-D
<GrueMaster> I know where he sits.  :D
<StevenK> Haha
<GrueMaster> But it isn't up to him.  We both report to the same manager.  Problem is, I'm a contract employee, and Intel won't fund any travel for us contractor types.
<GrueMaster> Let alone pay our wages.
<StevenK> Ahh
<GrueMaster> Sucks.
<GrueMaster> All the work of a full time employee, with none of the benefits (or politics).
<GrueMaster> But the pay is good.
<GrueMaster> StevenK:  is there any issues with the 3D packaging I should look into?
<StevenK> GrueMaster: At this point, I don't think so. 
<GrueMaster> k
<pmcgowan> StevenK, is Bryce working on packaging the graphics pieces do you know?
<StevenK> pmcgowan: I've been travelling for most of the last two days, so I'm fairly out of the loop.
<pmcgowan> StevenK, ok, I will ping him directly
<HappyCamp> GrueMaster, so are you sure that the people were trying exploit the SSH key issue on your system?
<HappyCamp> Just curious on when people started trying to exploit the issue
<HappyCamp> I have always seen lots of failures of login attempts via SSH in the past.
<GrueMaster> sorry, had to step out for a bit.
<GrueMaster> ï»¿HappyCamp:  Yes, I'm pretty sure.  I have logs showing 100's of ssh failure attempts from the same IP addresses.  Each originating IP address has at least 60 hits, usually in a 2 minute span.
<HappyCamp> GrueMaster, I wonder how you tell if it is a key attempt versus a password attempt
<HappyCamp> I get lots of ssh attempts in the past.
<dijenerate> hi all I'm back
<dijenerate> is the meeting still going on?
<dijenerate> ok, I'm guessing not
<lool> GrueMaster: Around?
<lool> GrueMaster: The graphics drivers don't seem to have changed between the last two releases
<GrueMaster> sorry, I stepped away for a second.
<GrueMaster> lool:  if you are referring to the ume beta releases, then you are correct.
<lool> GrueMaster: I mean between teh ARM files
<GrueMaster> I personally don't have access to arms, but there should be a 2.0.0.32L.0014 release up there.
<GrueMaster> If you don't see it let me know and I'll ping someone.
<lool> GrueMaster: I clarified; the problem is that we were comparing the lat two 0014 releases, but not the 0010 and the 0014 releases
<GrueMaster> Ah.
<GrueMaster> Well, 0014 needs to find it's way into the build.  Is there anything I can do to fix the packages to make this happen?  I've already tested 0014 on Beta4, and with the latest helix, it looks great.
<GrueMaster> It seems to fix other issues as well (S3/S4).
<lool> GrueMaster: Do you know why the xf86-video-psb master wasn't updated since March?
<lool> GrueMaster: I think only the GASTON branch was updated
<lool> GrueMaster: Is libva required for the graphics drivers beta 09?  Or only for helix stuff?
<lool> GrueMaster: Going afk now, but interested in your comments
<lool> persia: Could you look at seeding update-manager?  The seed is at ~ubuntu-mobile/ubuntu-seeds/mobile.hardy; the meta package in the ppa should be pulling from there
<lool> persia: This should pull u-m in the dailies
<lool> persia: TIA! :)
<lool> persia: bug #230821 BTW
<GrueMaster> lool:  sorry, I was at lunch.
<GrueMaster> lool:  AFAIK, there wasn't any changes to the xf86-video-psb source.  I believe most of the recent changes were for video playback (psb-kmd, libva, psb-video), but I could be wrong.  Libva is required for the helix cip codecs, and the latest cip codecs are compiled against 0014 bundle.
<GrueMaster> My understanding of how the modules inter-operate is that for basic video, you need only the open source 2D modules.  For 3D and video hardware playback, you need the closed source binary packages and firmware.
<ToddBrandt> tonyespy: you on?
<tonyespy> ToddBrandt: yes
<ToddBrandt> tonyespy: I have a potential fix for https://bugs.launchpad.net/moblin-applets/+bug/225465
<ToddBrandt> should I email you the .deb?
<ToddBrandt> it's like 1MB I think
<tonyespy>  sure...
<ToddBrandt> I'm rebuilding the .deb, one moment
<ToddBrandt> I basically just added a check inside the gdk window filter (the one inside moblin-settings-daemon that handles all the keyboard shortcuts). If it's already processing a previously recognized shortcut and it recieves another, it just removes it from the gdk queue and returns, i.e. it just gets ignored instead of getting processed right on top of the current one
<ToddBrandt> This situation should never actually occur, mind you, since the gdk filter function is supposed to be serial, but I have no idea what changes they did in the hardy version of xorg&gdk
<ToddBrandt> tonyespy: let's try irc 
<ToddBrandt> tonyespy: can you get a file through your IRC client?
<tonyespy> don't know...  it looks like it might work?
<tonyespy> doesn't look like it's working...
<ToddBrandt> yea it's sorta sitting there
<tonyespy> mail's probably best
<ToddBrandt> yea
<ToddBrandt> ok, 1 moment
<ToddBrandt> tonyespy: ok, I just sent out the .deb, if that doesn't fix it I'll create a version with some debug info to maybe help narrow down the issue.
<tonyespy> ToddBrandt: thanks!
<simoncm_training> Is the release still slated for shortly after 8.04?
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-05-17
<dijenerate> hi guys
<dijenerate> GrueMaster: howdy
<GrueMaster> hey.
<dijenerate> question, is the tiny atom based prototype you have about the size of a nokia N800?
<GrueMaster> very close.
<dijenerate> and the power requirements are also close
<GrueMaster> not sure.  I have no specs on the system.  
<GrueMaster> Other than it uses atom and i'm running Linux on it.
<dijenerate> so atom based systems can technically fit into the same footprint as 'arm' based PDAs
<GrueMaster> getting there, yes.
<dijenerate> 'almost'
<GrueMaster> http://www.engadget.com/2008/04/02/video-lenovos-ideapad-u8-mid-teases-with-intels-atom/
<dijenerate> I just saw the Aigo MID unboxing video and realized the battery is a 3.7V 2700MaH that manages to last 2.5hrs on an x86 machine
<GrueMaster> That's one sample.  
<dijenerate> I think I've found the point of the Centrino Atom!
<dijenerate> only question now is, can they run completely enclosed like 'arm' systems can?
<dijenerate> or do they still have 'stalker' fans
<dijenerate> lol
<GrueMaster> The unit I have has a very small fan on it that only kicks in under load.  Yea, it's warmer than a PDA, but considering the technology, it's not bad.
<dijenerate> does it support AMD64 instructions like the Core2 does?
<dijenerate> CPU-Z reports the Atom as a Core2 Silverthorne
<GrueMaster> no.  YOu hardly need it for desktop, why would you want it now for a unit the size of a psp?
<GrueMaster> The main benifit to x86-64 is memory addressing.  SO-Dimms aren't that small yet.
<dijenerate> ok
<dijenerate> the CPU is really a lot of smoke and mirrors when compared to a desktop CPU
<dijenerate> like being unable to handle rvmb encoded files at 644 x 488 881kbps without CPU usage hitting 100%
<dijenerate> but an mpeg4 avi at 512x388 25fps 539kbps plays smoothly at 40~50% CPU usage
<GrueMaster> what is rvmb?
<dijenerate> that makes no sense mathematically considering what each format requires of the CPU but when you consider that there are dedicated mpeg4 decoding registers in the silverthorne
<GrueMaster> And do you have any sample videos?
<dijenerate> along with mp3, mpeg2 and mpeg1 among others, the plot thickens
<dijenerate> real one HD format
<GrueMaster> I've been playing some of the 1080i VC1 videos from Microsoft, and they look great.  10% cpu usage.
<GrueMaster> Mainly for i/o
<dijenerate> dedicated registers
<GrueMaster> yep.
<dijenerate> supporting flash etc
<dijenerate> so the main CPU registers don't have to do the math
<dijenerate> that is cheating tho'
<GrueMaster> How?  Most video cards do hardware decoding.
<GrueMaster> nVidia and ATI both do that.
<dijenerate> gives good looking results when running layman demos, that and using the Centrino name seems a bit dishonest
<GrueMaster> Centrino Atom.  There's a difference.
<GrueMaster> Centrino is a name that defines a wireless mobile platform.
<dijenerate> yes because it makes sense to save energy
<dijenerate> but not because the video card's GPU can't do it
<GrueMaster> And that is a bad thing?
<dijenerate> but in this case the Atom can't
<GrueMaster> Can't what?
<GrueMaster> Last fall when I only had 2D drivers and software decoders, I could still do 1080i video, just with higher cpu utilization.
<dijenerate> yeah, originally, but users of the old Centrino line have come to expect a certain amount of performance... intel is banking on that
<dijenerate> it's not the graphics chipset I'm talking about
<GrueMaster> Again, for what?  YOu are assuming this is for high performance computing, which it is not.
<dijenerate> the CPU can't handle it
<dijenerate> if it had to do it conventionally, it would shoot up to 100% in no time
<dijenerate> but there is a specific application I can think of that can benefit from the Atom
<dijenerate> because of how close it is to the 'arm' platform
<GrueMaster> With the wireless world, one of the design ideas for this is as a remote terminal.  If you are travelling and you need to do some high powered number crunching, you can remote into your desktop system at home or work.
<dijenerate> I know, you have said this before, but a celeron is not for high performance computing either and still outperforms this
<dijenerate> which means that you could just as easily go 'arm'
<GrueMaster> But how many Centrino platforms do you see today that can perform like a cell phone?
<dijenerate> this is where I have the conflict...
<dijenerate> it does everything 'arm' already does but can't do the things that x86 has done for ages without 'cheats' like dedicated registers
<GrueMaster> Have you seen the video on moblin.org?  While the systems in the video are mostly mockups, they are pretty close.
<dijenerate> so if it isn't intended for high performance computing 'read: x86's domain' why not just use 'arm'
<GrueMaster> One of the issues with arm is the total web experience.  currently, there are ~12% of the plugins needed for most web sites available to arm, whereas there is ~80% available to x86 Linux.
<dijenerate> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJIymS3YdOo
<GrueMaster> Also, try running Linux AND windows on an arm simultaneously.
<dijenerate> this shows up the dedicated registers since there are none for the real video
<GrueMaster> Of course, no one in this forum cares about windows.
<dijenerate> we can see how weak the atom really is
<dijenerate> that is a good point
<dijenerate> so for x86 plugin support yes it is good
<GrueMaster> But again, you are leaving power out of the equation.
<dijenerate> but since the days when I did zaurus development, I wondered why plugins weren't just ported to 'arm'
<GrueMaster> The lowest powered mobile processor is currently ~25w.  This is ~3w.
<dijenerate> they were ported to powerpc
<dijenerate> my core solo is ~5W
<dijenerate> what are you talking about
<dijenerate> and the C7M is 7W
<dijenerate> the AMD geode is somewhere in that vicinity as well
<GrueMaster> The AMD is under powered in comparison.  I have seen those benchmarks.
<dijenerate> actually the Geode is a good example of what low power x86 should look like
<dijenerate> it's also very old
<GrueMaster> at any rate, it's beer time here on a hot Friday afternoon.
<dijenerate> so unless the atom blows it away, the comparison is something for intel to be ashamed of
<dijenerate> ok, np
<dijenerate> thanks for the time to discuss this with me
<dijenerate> ttyl
<dijenerate> !taking
<GrueMaster> Not necessarily.  The Atom is a partial core redesign, which means it almost is completely new architecture.
<GrueMaster> Not bad for a first attempt.
<GrueMaster> And I've been working with Intel processors since the first P6.  I know how they can be.
<GrueMaster> later.
<dijenerate> thing is intel hasn't really done a 'from scratch' core design since the Pentium M days, and now they licence AMD's tech, I have little respect for them these days
<dijenerate> so most of these 'new' processors don't count as first attempts in my books
<dijenerate> innovation begins with A these days not I
<dijenerate> what intel has over AMD is way better marketing, they are so good they even believe their own hype
<dijenerate> silly question, what's the difference between the menlow crownbeach and the standard menlow image
<dijenerate> I'm having this random looping problem with menlow when i try to run it on a core solo GMA950 based device
<Zic> lool: ping
<Zic> (it does not concern directly Ubuntu Mobile, if you can query me when you are here, it will be cool :))
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-05-18
<edisch> hello
<edisch> can i speak german?
 * suihkulokki presumes amitk is sitting around somewhere here at UDS ;)
<amitk> suihkulokki: went up to the room for a bit.. whats up?
<suihkulokki> just arrived.. seemingly nothing happening today.
<amitk> suihkulokki: on my way down... you on the 3rd floor?
<suihkulokki> amitk: yes
<Bang0o> hello
<Bang0o> i have a question:
<Bang0o> can i run mobile ubuntu on any mbile phone?
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-05-11
<N[]vA> morning
<N[]vA> any one tried running on a samsung omnia?
<astrolon> hi to all!
<astrolon> who is knowing, is ubuntu PDA version?
<astrolon> i would like to change my Wmobile on Linux in my PDA
<ian_brasil> the lpia version of phoronix-test-suite is just the same as the i386 version
<ian_brasil> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/lpia/phoronix-test-suite/1.6.0-0ubuntu1
<ian_brasil> that seems wrong for running tests on lpia v i386
<ian_brasil> maybe i will just rebuild  the package on lpia
<lool> ian_brasil: What do you mean "is the same"?
<lool> ian_brasil: If it's the same _all .deb, then it's probably arch indep?
<lool> ian_brasil: For instance it builds what it needs when you run the testsuite, or it's written in an arch indep language
<ian_brasil> that is what i thought but when i installed on MID i get no sensor information  
<ian_brasil> however i do on the same device with unr
<ian_brasil> i will run php pts-core/scripts/build-package-deb.php on lpia and see if that makes any difference
<lool> ian_brasil: The reason you get no sensor info on MID might be another issue, e.g. missing support from kernel or something
<ian_brasil> maybe but it seems unusual i get no sensors whatever CPU,battery,GPU
<lool> Well you might be missing a lib or a kernel config option, dunno
<ian_brasil> i will have a play around and see what i can find out
<rhpot1991> hmmmm this is weird, switched to desktop mode, restarted via terminal.  when it comes back up I get a background but no menus or icons and no netbook remix screen
<plars> rhpot1991: known bug
<rhpot1991> plars: yep, I've come across the bug report
<rhpot1991> think I have it all back now
<plars> rhpot1991: See https://bugs.launchpad.net/desktop-switcher/+bug/349519
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 349519 in desktop-switcher "Switch Desktop Mode corrupted settings" [Undecided,Fix committed]
<rhpot1991> plars: yep already there :)
<sivak> persia
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-05-12
<mobi> i want to program my mobile
<mobi> i want to program my mobile
<mobi> i want to program my mobile
<mobi> what do i do
<persia> Well, my recommendation would be 1) install ubuntu and 2) stick around on IRC long enough to see a response :)
<N[]vA> ola
<N[]vA> simple question, can ubuntu mobile be run on a samsung omnia?
<persia> What are the specs for the omnia?
<N[]vA> 240 x 400 pixels, 3.2 inches
<N[]vA> 8 GB/16 GB storage, 128 MB RAM, 256 MB ROM
<N[]vA> Marvell PXA312 624 MHz processor
<N[]vA> what else do you need info wise?
<persia> At that resolution, you'd need a special interface.  The RAM is kinda low, but some people get by with that little.  I've heard of using lower-spec processors, but you'd have to roll your own kernel.
<N[]vA> kewl thanks
<persia> The hard bit is probably to get Ubuntu installed in the first place, but I'm not sure I'd recommend running either of the Ubuntu Mobile flavours on that.
<N[]vA> think I will have to give that a try
<persia> It sounds more like a phone kinda thing, and you'd probably want a lower-res interface.
<N[]vA> can always change it back :D
<N[]vA> yea it is a phone
<pan1nx> lool, are you there?
<pan1nx> persia?
<persia> pan1nx, Yes?
<pan1nx> howdy :D
<pan1nx> persia, who is in charge in Canonical of the mobile business?
<pan1nx> I am talking management level?
<pan1nx> person...
<persia> Hrm.  I'm probably not the best person to answer that.
<lool> pan1nx: What do you mean?
<lool> pan1nx: Are you looking for Canonical commercial contacts?
<pan1nx> for the mobile business, yes, lool
<lool> pan1nx: I think the correct contact address is mobile@canonical.com albeit if you have more specific needs, I might have more specific contacts
<pan1nx> thanks lool and persia...
<sivak> exit
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-05-13
<shadeslayer> hi i was wondering if ubuntu-mid would run on my laptop,i would just like to try out the GUI 
<shadeslayer> its a XPS M1530
<shadeslayer> and one more thing,the UNR and MID are 2 different things right?
<ogra> should be possible, yes ... 
<ogra> UNR and MID are different, yes
<shadeslayer> ogra: ok thanks,just wanted to give it a shot and see if it improves battery life ;)
<ogra> MID rather targets the smaller screens and doesnt use any GL stuff in the UI while UNR fully relies on GL capable hardware and rather targets resolutions like 1024x600
<shadeslayer> ogra: ok
<shadeslayer> i have 1440X900
<jussi01> Is this the correct channel for UNR? if not, could someone direct me to the correct channel?
<ian_brasil> jussi01: maybe just ask your question?
<jussi01> ian_brasil: just trying to make sure Im on topic. 
<jussi01> anyway.
<jussi01> Hrm, never mind, my issue fixed itself. sorry to have bothered.
<shadeslayer> how do i switch b/w gnome and the MID UI ?
<shadeslayer> ping....
<shadeslayer> i feel like i wasted 1 hr in dowloading this thing :(
<ogra> the MID image doesnt have any gnome packages 
<ogra> so there is nothing to switch to
<shadeslayer> ogra: apt-cache search ubuntu-mid gave me ubuntu-mid - The Ubuntu MID system
<ogra> oh, no idea how you make that work at all
<shadeslayer> ogra: so what about the clutter interface?
<ogra> thats UNR
<ogra> not MID
<shadeslayer> ogra: no i *mean* the clutter interface of ubuntu MID
<ogra> there is no clutter interface of ubuntu MId
<shadeslayer> http://images.google.co.in/imgres?imgurl=http://news.cnet.com/i/bto/20080624/ubuntu_MID_screen_shot_6.24.2008.jpg&imgrefurl=http://news.cnet.com/newsblog/%3Fkeyword%3DUbuntu&usg=__u-M8hjSiybO5oIEX_IYv8kezqTY=&h=199&w=340&sz=11&hl=en&start=4&um=1&tbnid=7Imnx2sbZhZHQM:&tbnh=70&tbnw=119&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dubuntu%2BMID%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dcom.ubuntu:en-US:unofficial%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1
<shadeslayer> sorry for the flood
<ogra> that was mobile-basic-flash i think, it doesnt exist anymore
<ogra> http://packages.ubuntu.com/hardy/mobile-basic-flash
<shadeslayer> gah... ok no problems then...ill remove this,since i have no use for it
<ogra> its a fullscreen flash app, not clutter afaik
<shadeslayer> ogra: ok,gotcha
<ian_brasil> shadeslayer: that was a clutter mock up done upstream which was never pursued further
<ian_brasil> the flash interface was different - blue with sort of scroll handles either side http://ianlawrence.info/images/ume_flash.png
<ian_brasil> neither exist anymore
<lool> I think the clutter version worked to some extent, but was not really completed and needed porting to clutter 0.8
<ian_brasil> i would like to see an updated clutter interface for MID
<GrueMaster> The clutter-ui in the link above was in moblin1.0 as a preview.
<GrueMaster> Unfortunately, clutter requires working GL driver support, something severely lacking for the target MID platform.
<GrueMaster> Clarification:  It will run with the vesa driver and software GL, but it will be very slow.  Like playing doom3 in vista on a 386.
<GrueMaster> (if it were possible).
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-05-14
 * KaptenRodSkagg_ is away: Jag Ã¤r upptagen
<playya_> oh no. i can't import git repositories to lp :(
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-05-15
<termleech> is this the right channel to talk about Ubuntu Netbook Remix?
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-05-17
<mdke> anyone have an ubuntu-unr installation handy?
<persia> mdke, I do.  What do you need?
<mdke> persia: is "scrollkeeper" installed?
<persia> It *really* shouldn't be, although rarian should
 * persia checks
<mdke> yes, I'd expect rarian-compat to be installed
<persia> Oh, it is.  That's a mistake.
<mdke> thought so
<mdke> we've had a lot of crasher bug reports on ubuntu-docs with the ubuntu-unr tag
<mdke> we haven't seen those since the bad old scrollkeeper days
<mdke> shall I file a bug?
<persia> Please :)
<persia> It ought be filed against mobile-meta
<mdke> what package/project?
<mdke> ok, thanks
<persia> mobile-meta (Ubuntu)
<persia> I suspect rarian-compat needs to be explicitly seeded.
<persia> I'm not sure it can be fixed sensibly in an SRU though :(  We can make sure it's gone for karmic alpha 2 though.
<mdke> I'll leave that to you guys
<mdke> persia: ok, it's bug 377522, thanks for the help
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 377522 in mobile-meta "scrollkeeper is installed instead of rarian-compat" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/377522
<persia> mdke, Thanks for finding and reporting it :)
<mdke> no worries
#ubuntu-mobile 2010-05-17
<yigal> is this room still active, I see the topic was set last year?
<yigal> right, good to know
#ubuntu-mobile 2010-05-18
<lamalex> can anyone possibly give me a quick answer for what screen size you guys optimize for?
<persia> No.
<persia> Currently, there aren't any active Mobile flavours.
<persia> Different flavours optimised in different ways.  Some optimised for physical dimensions.  Others optimised for resolutions.
<persia> It's *easiest* to make a flavour for >800x600 and >4.5" because that gets to share more software with other flavours.
<jobi> is lucid shipped on squashfs + unionfs format on any platform?
#ubuntu-mobile 2010-05-19
<lool> jobi: It needs not be, but the desktop CDs usually are; there are also alternate CDs which contain the .debs which get installed with d-i
<lool> jobi: But we could also build pre-installed images with oem-config, which we intend to do for some combinations in the future
#ubuntu-mobile 2010-05-21
<cnd> amitk: have you guys looked at ureadahead on some of the arm platforms?
<cnd> I've found that the tracing needed for ureadahead isn't enabled for mvl-dove in 10.04
<Invisrcm> hey
<Invisrcm> would someone be able to help me set up my wireless, ive been trying for the past 5 hours lol
<Invisrcm> i cant even get a simple  sudo iwlist wlan0 scan
<Invisrcm> to work i just get no scan results
<zumbi> Invisrcm: ifconfig wlan0 up
<Invisrcm> even with that and then iwlist scan i get no results
<zumbi> Invisrcm: missing kernel module?
<zumbi> or firmware
<Invisrcm> im running xbmc
<Invisrcm> i had it working last week
<Invisrcm> but i had to reinstall it
<Invisrcm> and now i cant figure what i did last time to get it to work lol
<Invisrcm> any ideas
<Invisrcm> anyone lol
<Invisrcm12> hey
