#ubuntu-classroom 2007-02-12
<GaiaX11> What is this channel about?
<nalioth> hi fotf what exactly seems to be the problem?
<nalioth> GaiaX11: this is where we come to help folks (#ubuntu gets VERY busy)
<LjL> nalioth: basically he was just trying to install wine, and in the process i asked him to gksudo gedit /etc/apt/sources.list, which apparently he did successfully, and then (since the winehq list was in another place) i asked him to run gksudo gedit /etc/apt/sources.list.d/winehq.list, but that apparently doesn't work, and just gives that message
<LjL> fotf: do you get any errors if you type "sudo apt-get update" now?
<fotf> nope, everything is sucessful
<LjL> fotf: then try typing again  sudo apt-get install wine 
<fotf> Wine is updating
<LjL> updating? so you had it already installed...? :o)
<LjL> well anyway, it's installing, which is the important thing about WINE
<LjL> i'm still not quite sure why you can't start gedit but
<fotf> yeah, it says "Upgrading" but still, let's see if this works
<nalioth> i heard something mentioned about a 'root terminal'
<nalioth> was there a root terminal in use?
<LjL> nalioth: he mentioned root terminals, as opposed to Konsole, as opposed to X terminals... a bit of a mess :P
<LjL> nalioth: anyway, he certainly was root at a point, if you notice the bash prompt at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/5339/
<LjL> (and no i never told him to make a root login...)
<nalioth> starting kdesu/gksudo apps from a root terminal will fail, as root is not on the sudoers list (kinda redundant, don't you think?)
<LjL> nalioth: right, and i told him that, but he states that it doesn't work even from an unprivileged X terminal
<LjL> but apparently, it worked the first time when i asked him to paste sources.list
<nalioth> fotf: in the future, hit alt-f2 and then "gksudo" or "kdesu"
<fotf> Gotcha, but what does that do?
<nalioth> root terminals are aberrations (weren't designed into Ubuntu for a reason)
<LjL> fotf: you haven't read the !root page the bot sent you, have you? :P
<fotf> Okies, it now asking me where to run an app
<fotf> I have I have
<fotf> Use Sudo as apposed to su
<fotf> *opposed
<LjL> fotf: gksudo (and kdesu) are simply the "GUI versions" of sudo that are used for GNOME and KDE respectively. you should *always* use them over "sudo" for GUI apps
<fotf> Got it
<LjL> fotf: "su" doesn't work at all
<fotf> Uh-huh
<LjL> unless you've done something not recommended such as making up a root password, of course ;
<fotf> So what do I do with run application?
<fotf> Wine has finished "Upgrading"
<LjL> fotf: it's simple - when you need to start a GUI apps as root, you do "gksudo appfilename" (or "kdesu appfilename" under KDE), and you can do that easily from Alt+F2, which simply gives you a command prompt
<LjL> fotf: then you should now be able to type "wine programname.exe" (in Alt+F2, again, or in a terminal) to start a Windows program
<nalioth> if you use "sudo GUIapp", your permissions can be scrambled (and your linux won't work too well)
<fotf> so something like this?
<fotf> << Cd /media/cdrom0               wine setup.exe>> ?
<nalioth> yes
<fotf> Okay, do I need to create like, a directory for Wine to store the registery and other stuff?
<nalioth> nope
<nalioth> !tell fotf about wine
<nalioth> see the PM from the bot to get running
<fotf> Sorry, I'm not registered with the Nickserv
<LjL> uh?
<LjL> you should receive PMs anyway
<LjL> you just cannot *send* them
<LjL> (but i guess ubotu gets them anyway)
<fotf> I see it now
<LjL> fotf: anyway the directory where wine stores stuff is ~/.wine
<LjL> you don't need to create it, it's there
<fotf> kk
<fotf> I tried wine RegnumOnlineInstall.exe
<fotf> but then I get this error
<nalioth> fotf: ubotu is set up to help everyone
<fotf> ugh, you mind if I don't pastebin this?
<nalioth> pastebins are a goodness
<LjL> how long is it
<LjL> (but yeah, what's wrong with using the pastebin anyway, it's neat)
<fotf> Seven lines, and no one's using this channel excpet us anyhow
<LjL> well if you really dislike the pastebin that much... paste
<fotf> wine: creating configuration directory '/home/fotf/.wine'...
<fotf> libGL warning: 3D driver claims to not support visual 0x4b
<fotf> libGL warning: 3D driver claims to not support visual 0x4b
<fotf> libGL warning: 3D driver claims to not support visual 0x4b
<fotf> Failed to open the service control manager.
<fotf> wine: '/home/fotf/.wine' created successfully.
<fotf> wine: could not load L"c:\\windows\\system32\\RegnumOnlineInstall.exe": Module not found
<LjL> are you sure you're in the right directory where the .exe resides?
<fotf> I have it on my desktop...
<fotf> Hold on
<LjL> type  pwd  and paste the output
<fotf> I'll try moving it to another dir that I will direct the terminal to
<LjL> no
<LjL> didn't you mention it was in /media/cdrom0 anyway? now it's on the desktop?
<fotf> Oh, that was an example
<fotf> It's working now!!!
<fotf> (Although really !@#$ laggy...I need more ram)
<fotf> So, if I want to run a prog on wine, I do this right?
<fotf> <Cd      Cd ~/wine      wine Anything.exe>
<nalioth> you should have right-click-functionality now to open MS things in wine
<fotf> sweet
<fotf> so I won't have to hassle with the terminal?
<nalioth> not unless you want to
<nalioth> did you read what the bot sent?
<fotf> Everything
<nalioth> did you run winesetupcfg or whatever it is called?
<fotf> nope
<nalioth> you should do that first
<LjL> nalioth: what's that? winesetuptk? i don't think it's mentioned on our wiki
<nalioth> no? horrors!
<fotf> and just how do I do that?
<LjL> nalioth: actually, winesetuptk probably *is* the horror :P
<nalioth> fotf: disregard, they may have made advances from the time i used wine
<LjL> under KDE, installed Windows applications simply end up in the main menu, no need to do anything special... not sure about gnome
<fotf> thank god
<LjL> the wiki simply tells you how to add them manually, so i guess no cookie in GNOME
<nalioth> LjL: in gnome, there is context functionality, also
<LjL> nalioth: in KDE, i just double click on the executable :P
<nalioth> i think you can do that in gnome, too
<nalioth> i've not had an x86 in years
<nalioth> didn't run wine when i DID have one
<nalioth> who needs windows?
<LjL> gamers :P
<nalioth> that is slowly becoming a thing of the past
<LjL> and web designers, unfortunately for them
<LjL> well... quite slowly from what i can see
<LjL> keep in mind that - at least from what i'm told - the trend for games is to move *towards* Direct3D in spite of OpenGL
<LjL> if that's true, that certainly doesn't much encourage Linux ports
<nalioth> LjL: i disagree
<fotf> YES
<nalioth> web designers can use w3w standards and have fully functional websites that work in ALL browsers
<fotf> Well, let's just hope the windows genuine thing bundled with DirectX will have developers move toward OpenGL
<fotf> Btw, can any of you tell me what this means?
<LjL> nalioth: are you sure IE actually respects those standards? =)
<fotf> libGL warning: 3D driver claims to not support visual 0x4b
<nalioth> LjL: of course it does
<nalioth> LjL: microsoft makes its "own" tricks and adds them to IE and IIS but they are not 'standards'
<LjL> fotf, WINE spits tons of warnings. i don't know what that particular one means
<fotf> It has nothing to do with wine
<nalioth> since MS thinks it's gonna control the world, it figures those "special tricks" will become standards
<fotf> I tried running the Regnum Online linux binary, but it didn't work
<nalioth> LjL: you need to read up on some of the dirty tricks MS uses to make it seem IE is the best browser around
<fotf> that's why I needed wine
<nalioth> online binary?
<fotf> no no
<LjL> fotf: then i guess it's something to do with OpenGL support in your card...
<fotf> Regnum Online is the game name
<fotf> oh ****
<LjL> or, lack of support perhaps
<fotf> Intel is owned by MS right?
<nalioth> no
<LjL> mouarf
<fotf> Good
<fotf> Okay, I need some more help now that I know all this junk
<nalioth> yep, education sucks
<fotf> What is the defualt card that ships with the Dell Dimension 2400? (So old it's not on the dell site anymore)
<nalioth> teaches you that there is more to be taught
<nalioth> fotf: open a terminal please
<fotf> Had one open all this time
<nalioth> ok, type "sudo cal" <enter>
<fotf> A calender...
<nalioth> yes, i know it makes a calendar
<fotf> wheee
<nalioth> ok now type "sudo lshw > ~/Desktop/hardware" <enter>
<fotf> Okay, all it did was make all my drives spin
<fotf> now what?
<nalioth> open up the 'hardware' file on your Desktop with a text editor
<nalioth> nd enjoy
<fotf> Hey, does intel usually have OpenGL Drivers?
<nalioth> for their cards, i'd suspect they do
<fotf> Arg... I googled 82845G/GL[Brookdale-G] /GE Chipset Integrated Graphics Device openGL and everything is just so technical, my fragile newb mind cannot compute...
<fotf> I can't find a driver for my 82845G/GL[Brookdale-G] /GE Chipset Integrated Graphics Device
<fotf> Should I upgrade to nvidia soon?
<norty> yo
<jrib> norty: where is the partition mounted now?
<norty> to a folder on my desktop
<jrib> what's the full path?
<norty> /home/norty/Desktop/folder
<jrib> ok, and what happens if you 'cd /home/norty/Desktop/folder' in a terminal?
<norty> permission denied
<jrib> 'ls -ld /home/norty/Desktop/folder'
<norty> dr-x------ 1 root root 8192 2007-01-29 19:05 /home/norty/Desktop/folder
<jrib> since this is temporary, we'll just try with you as root instead of remounting...
<jrib> 'sudo -i'
<jrib> 'cd 21:45 <             jrib > what's the full path?
<jrib> erm wrong paste
<jrib> 'cd /home/norty/Desktop/folder'
<norty> ok im in there
<norty> what now
<jrib> norty: does 'ls' display your files?
<norty> ya
<jrib> ok then you have access.  type 'exit'
<jrib> then try 'gksudo nautilus /home/norty/Desktop/folder'
<norty> ok i can see them now
<jrib> ok
<norty> will i be able to copy them off to like an ipod or mp3 player?
<jrib> norty: do you want to learn how to mount it with proper permissions or are you ok with just working with root this time?
<jrib> norty: yeah, you can read the files so you can copy them anywhere you have write access
<norty> im fine with working with root this time, i just installed ubuntu incorrectly and didnt want to lose my data
<jrib> here's the link with info on using umask (for when you need to know in the future):
<jrib> !ntfs | norty
<ubotu> norty: To view your Windows/Mac partitions see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AutomaticallyMountPartitions . For write access see !ntfs-3g or !fuse
<norty> it doesnt let me drag and drop from the folder to my mp3 player..
<jrib> norty: can you copy to your desktop?
<norty> no
<jrib> norty: tell me the full path to a file you are trying to copy
<jrib> or just do what I am going to say next, in a terminal: sudo cp /path/to/file/you/want/to/copy ~/Desktop
<norty> /home/norty/Desktop/folder/file.txt
<norty> ok that worked
<jrib> how are you copying in nautilus?
<jrib> try to right click > select copy.  Then right click > select paste in the target
<jrib> dragging may try to move instead of copy
<norty> i tried both
<norty> didnt work
<norty> what is nautilus
<norty> im not sure im using it
<jrib> weird, just use the shell then
<norty> ?
<jrib> use cp commands to copy what you need, since that does work
<jrib> nautilus is the gui file manager thing
<norty> i havent used that
<norty> ive just been drag and dropping but thats not working
<jrib> we opened it when we did "gksudo nautilus ..."
<norty> it didnt open
<jrib> but you said "ok I can see them now"
<jrib> what did you mean?
<norty> i could see the files
<norty> is nautilus a file browser?
<jrib> yes
<norty> ok then its open
<norty> nevermind i was using it
<norty> ok so i want to copy the files from the folder to my sansa sandisk
<norty> i dont konw what the location of the sandisk is..
<jrib> is it mounted in /media somewhere?
<norty> let me lok
<norty> yes it is
<norty> its named Sansa e260
<jrib> k, you know how to copy the files now?
<norty> when i tried that sudo cp command with the destination Sansa e260 it didnt like the e260 part
<norty> how do i represent a space in the path?
<jrib> "file with space"  or  file\ with\ space
<jrib> or 'file with space'
<norty> so like /media/Sansa"file siwht space"e260
<norty> ?
<jrib> nah, '/media/sansa 260'
<norty> i tried that it didnt work
<cables> include the quotes
<jrib> paste the command and error
<norty> norty@norty:~$ sudo cp /home/norty/Desktop/folder/dinosaurs.jpg /media/Sansa e260
<cables> norty, put quotes around it
<norty> cp: target `e260' is not a directory
<cables> sry jrib, couldn't help but butt in...
<jrib> sudo cp /home/norty/Desktop/folder/dinosaurs.jpg '/media/Sansa e260'   thanks cables
<norty> huge that worked
<norty> can I somehow add a whole folder?
<jrib> cp -a foo bar
<norty> um what
<norty> say its in ~/Desktop/folder/theFolder
<jrib> cp -a /home/norty/Desktop/folder/SOMEFOLDER '/media/Sansa e260'
<norty> ok
<norty> let me try
<jrib> foo and bar are commonly used terms that mean "put something appropriate here"
<jrib> or just foobar I guess
<norty> awesome that worked
<norty> so like the files are read-only, when i copy them to my xp partition will they still be read-only?
<jrib> I don't really know how xp will handle that
<norty> im gunna go try this and see what happens, ill be back in like 5 minutes
<jrib> norty: but I'm pretty sure that even if they are read only you can make them not read only in xp
<norty> sweet it works
<norty> thanks dude
<jrib> norty: yw
<norty> <3
<norty> jrib
<norty> is there a way I can do this faster, its taking soo long
<jrib> norty: not that I know of
<jrib> norty: go make a sandwich :)
<norty> its taken 15 minute to transfer 1.5 gigs
<norty> would I be able to connect my laptop to this desktop via usb and transfer that way?
<jrib> there is probably some way, but I don't know how
<jrib> someone in #ubuntu might know
<nalioth> that only works with Apple hardware and firewire, i'm afraid
<norty> hmm
<norty> is there a way I can copy the files over a network to another computer?
<nalioth> sure
<norty> how
<nalioth> just like you said
<norty> ?
<nalioth> use cp or scp to copy the stuff
<norty> how do I connect to the computer though
<nalioth> scp or cp are both network aware
<nalioth> not sure what you're asking
<norty> my friend has a computer running xp
<norty> i want to be able to copy the files from my hd using ubuntu to his computer
<nalioth> do you have an sshd running?
<norty> i dont know
<nalioth>  type "ssh yourusername@localhost" and see what happens
<norty> in the terminal
<norty> ssh: connect to host localhost port 22: Connection refused
<nalioth> then please type "sudo apt-get install ssh" in the terminal
<norty> ok it did a bunch of stuff
<norty> now what
<nalioth> now try the ssh yourname@localhost
<norty> ok i connected..
<norty> now what
<nalioth> norty: now go to your windows machine, go to www.freewarehome.com and find an sftp program
<nalioth> it has to support sftp
<norty> ok
<nalioth> once you find one and get it set up on the windows box, you can use it to log into your machine and do what you like
<norty> i downloaded filezilla
<norty> i want to be able to copy files from my comp to his comp
<nalioth> right. you can do it from his computer
<nalioth> put filezilla on it
<norty> i put filezilla on his computer
<norty> and i have that shh installed on my linux computer
<norty> now what
<nalioth> on your computer, in the terminal, type "ifconfig" and get your computers IP address
<norty> ok got it
<nalioth> now remember the IP address, and use it in filezilla
<norty> ok
<norty> hold on let me try
<norty> doesnt work
<norty> it says i dont have permission to copy the files
<norty> can i somehow copy them from my computer to his computer? instead of using his computer to copy them from mine to his?
<norty> that way i dont have to deal with this permission stuff
<nalioth> did you log in with your user/pass ?
<nalioth> you should have full access to your home directory and its contents
<norty> i did, it didnt work
<norty> i dunno if you were here but i was having troubles getting permission the the folder im trying to copy from earlier
<norty> jribs helped me get permission somehow
<norty> so thats probably the issue again
<nalioth> probably
<norty> do you know of a way to do it through ubuntu?
<nalioth> he'd have to install an sshd on his windows
<nalioth> much much more problematic than the way you tried to do it
<norty> whats sshd?
<norty> like is it a program or something he can just easily install?
<nalioth> not easily
<norty> i see
<norty> how do I remove a directory?
<norty> cables how do I remove a directory that is on an external usb drive?
<cables> same way you do on any other drive
<norty> norty@norty:~$ sudo rmdir -r '/media/Sansa e260/MUSIC/Music'
<norty> rmdir: invalid option -- r
<norty> Try `rmdir --help' for more information.
<norty> thats what i get
<cables> not rmdir -r
<cables> rm -r
<norty> doh
<cables> :)
<cables> i see they're helping you in #ubuntu
<norty> it says permission denied
<cables> sudo rm -r then
<norty> i did that
<cables> with the sudo?
<norty> ya
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-02-13
<Slaughterer> could someone maybe help me please
<Slaughterer> i'm unable to browse my SATA NTFS HDD
<Slaughterer> when using 'sudo fdisk -l' it is listed
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-02-14
<xratex> anyone knows if this repos are working fine and wont cause troubles with ubuntu 6.10??       http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/BerylOnEdgy
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o LjL]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o LjL]  by LjL
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-02-16
* Mez slaps popey on the ass and calls him eilieen
<elkbuntu> rofl
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-02-17
<Apollyon_> Sorry!
<phaidros> wow, what kind of channel is this?
<unop> i'm here :)
<nalioth> unop: there are two ways of being a superuser in Ubuntu
<unop> was i just banned in #ubuntu?
<nalioth> one: use the 'custom install' and have it enable a root account (just like any other unix)
<nalioth> nope, you were not
<phaidros> which 'custom install' ?
<nalioth> if you use the custom install, Ubuntu looks, acts and behaves like any other unix
<phaidros> option during install? (never seen)
<nalioth> phaidros: when you boot the install cd, you have install options.  one is "custom"
<phaidros> k.
<nalioth> the 2nd way is "sudo password root"
<unop> nalioth,  you misunderstood me in there -- i know how root works on ubuntu, i've said it twice, you dont need root enabled, you can do without -- i'm just disagreeing and questioning the issue of breakage resulting from enabling root
<nalioth> this is wrong, as the system is not set up to recognzie "root" giving orders
<phaidros> thats what I'd like to know also!
<phaidros> nalioth, where?
<nalioth> phaidros: where what?
<phaidros> of course the system takes orders from root. where is an example setting of system not reacting proper on root?
<unop> nalioth,  that is not of my experience (TM) .. i have used ubuntu for quite sometime now and never had a problem with root
<phaidros> same same
<nalioth> unop: but the folks who write the wiki write it from experience gained in #ubuntu and the other help channels
<nalioth> we've seen how it can sometimes screw things up
<unop> nalioth, we arent newbies if thats what you are suggesting
<nalioth> your experience is great, but "works for me" doesn't work for everyone
<unop> nalioth,  and i am telling you from my own experience, from reading, learning, doing .. first hand
<phaidros> i understand that sudo is a policy, but there is no technical or logical reason (facts I've seen) on your argument ..
<phaidros> just zero, thats why I'm confused on that
<phaidros> and - I'd wonder if ubuntu coders would do like this: to build unix-incompatibilities
<nalioth> phaidros: the collective knowledge of lots of helpers in #ubuntu and the forums have led us to that.  you both are single users and probably don't administer more than 2 or 3 computers each
<unop> nalioth,  ok, i understand this is ubuntu policy, fine, i dont disrespect and wish to go against it .. for the fourth time, i'll give you my stance on root -- i dont recommend enabling it, sudo does you fine
<phaidros> 50
<unop> nalioth,  now, i'd like to know (since you are an op here and know ububntu well) what apps break as a result of having root enabled?
<nalioth> then please don't advise "sudo passwd root" instead "sudo -i"
<phaidros> I'm not here to make a stand to recommend root, I'm here to know facts :)
<unop> nalioth,  did you see me advise enabling root?
<nalioth> some of the server things don't work correctly
<phaidros> I was :)
<phaidros> sry for that
<phaidros> again, I understand the policy
<unop> nalioth,  please be specific, "some things" are what exactly?
<phaidros> but if someone asks if it works anyway, then: yes, passwd root gives ya root
<nalioth> apache, mysql, some other server level things
<phaidros> huh? really?
<nalioth> phaidros: just send them "!sudo"
<unop> nalioth,  they dont work because yo enable root.. thats not true
<nalioth> or !root
<phaidros> nalioth, ok. fine for me, nbut please tell me a real world example of what you state!
<unop> nalioth,  apache, mysql and pretty much everything else these days does now run under root anyway
<nalioth> unop: fine. "works for me" isn't always good advice in #ubuntu
<phaidros> sry nalioth your argument is pointless.
<unop> nalioth,  i dont disagree with that
<nalioth> it's pointless, fine.
<unop> nalioth,  i was just disagreeing with the facts about root
<phaidros> we are not here to here about what to say, we are here to know what you mean by" passwd root may break things!
<unop> nalioth,  not about whether users should have it enabled or not
<nalioth> i've been helping in #ubuntu for over 2 years and seen the phenomonon
<phaidros> example please! this should be considered as bugs!
<phaidros> imho
<phaidros> (no offence intented here, just want to know detail)
<phaidros> ;)
<unop> nalioth, i've been in and out of ubuntu for 4 months and see it too and i understand where you are coming from
<unop> nalioth,  but it's not right to say "things break" as a result of enabling root -- because that just isnt true, it has no bearing on the user's environment, the bootup, servers, services, why should it?
<nalioth> <sigh>
<nalioth> i'm not good at debating
<nalioth> i've seen what i've seen (and so have others)
<unop> nalioth,  thats not good enough now is it, you're playing a trump here ... yes, others might experience things "unusual", but then that behaviour should be considered "abnormal" an appropriate steps should be taken to remedy that
<phaidros> its no debate, its just requesting what you said ;)
<nalioth> unop: i agree. i don't file bugs on things i see in #ubuntu
<phaidros> I'd go for a bug if that would happen to me using root ..
<nalioth> talk to some of the other folks who've helped in #ubuntu a long long time
<nalioth> the bottom line is: do not help where it might bring harm
<nalioth> "works for me" is horrid lesson planning
<nalioth> if i helped with what "works for me" we'd all be broken
<phaidros> we still misunderstand each other.
<unop> nalioth,  i dont really classify this as a "works for me" scenario , because it is proven to work and work well on every other unix system out there, I believe it's a good thing ubuntu (and the mac, etc) lock root and give you sudo .. but enabling root comes handy in times of emergency, especially if the primary user forgets his credentials
<phaidros> I'm not stating I'd ever tell sudo passwd again.
<phaidros> I'm asking for the technical background (in facts) of your warning, because that concerns me
<nalioth> if the primary user forgets his credentials, he can boot a liveCD (like OSX) and get them back
<unop> i'll have to agree with phaidros -- the only actual reason I am here is because i know you are an op and has been working with ubuntu for quite sometime, so if you express concern, then i'd like to know what they really are
<phaidros> nalioth, its pointless to repeat how to live without root. we know. we are interested in the problems you suggested by saying root can brak things
<nalioth> ask some others, as i mentioned
<nalioth> there have been enough problems that it is a concern, not sure why/if/maybe a bug has been files
<nalioth> filed
<unop> nalioth,  but thats just an inconvenience -- if you can drop down to the VT and log in as root and reset the password, why go through all the hassle of booting up into the live CD, chrooting, etc etc .. that's a plain inconvenice
<nalioth> BUT if Ubuntu is not meant to have root enabled via the 2nd method, why would that be a "bug" ?
<phaidros> because thats unix standard, things should work with enabled root as well, imho.
<unop> nalioth,  and it's not only if the primary user forgets his/her password (which does happen) -- it's handy in emergency system admin (e.g. single user mode) .. in times when perhaps over the network, non-root users arent allowed login access, etc
<nalioth> phaidros: if you enable it during install, it works great
<unop> nalioth,  it works great otherwise too -- and should really
<phaidros> if not, ubuntu goes a trange way depending standards, which I have not seen in ubuntu yet. I like all the work in ubuntu !
<nalioth> unop: in that situation, i think the network admins will configure their boxen accordingly.  we are talking about NEW users here
<phaidros> nalioth, is there an more experienced #ubuntu channel?
<phaidros> like not only for noobs?
<nalioth> phaidros: #ubuntu+1 ?
<phaidros> kewl
<phaidros> topic says "feisty"
<unop> nalioth, ok, i'm talking more general now -- forget NEW users (i think we are all in agreement about them, "no root for you") .. it's the issue about the locked root account and what the repurcsions of enabling it are
<nalioth> unop: if the ubuntu designers had wanted an active root account to play well with others, they'd have not instituted a "sudo only" install by default
<phaidros> nalioth, imho is having only sudo a protection for noobs, to learn about root later.
<nalioth> at which time, they can continue using sudo
<nalioth> i've been using linux since 1997
<nalioth> i am familiar with root
<phaidros> to start with sudo is a very convenient thing, but asa people diggin deeper, root should not be considered harmful
<nalioth> i got an OSX box in 2001 and have not missed a root account since.
<nalioth> i can do ALL of my superuser tasks with sudo
<phaidros> me to, its inconvenient for me to state sudo in front of every command
<phaidros> so i like root.
<nalioth> phaidros: have you ever inadvertantly wiped your system because you were in a root shell and forgot?
<phaidros> others do too
<nalioth> phaidros: than increase the timeout
<nalioth> that is fine, phaidros but not the Ubuntu way
<unop> nalioth, i think it's safer and easier to have a "sudo only" authorization mechanism -- safer because you require a user's password to then become root and easier because it's a single password to remember -- but having said that, if ubuntu's developers "designed a sudo only" mechanism and broke conventional unix as a result of that, they're in the wrong (but i dont think anything is broken, nothing i see so far is as
<unop> a result)
<nalioth> believe it or not, we have some long term helpers in #ubuntu that use BSD (but they don't answer the questions with BSD answers)
<ompaul> phaidros, if you realllllly need root why not --- sudo -i the right way to do root from sudo
<nalioth> we have some old help that uses debian sarge
<phaidros> ompaul, its not about me, its not about sudo.
<phaidros> its about nalioth stating that using plain root is considered harmful on ubuntu and I want to know in which case thats happening
<unop> ompaul,  i disagee sometimes .. sudo -s  works if you want to preserve your environment and still be root
<nalioth> ompaul: it's about me and my mention of "enabling root by force" causing some things to not respond to the root account thus enabled
<nalioth> phaidros: i NEVER said that
<nalioth> phaidros: if you choose custom install, you are welcome to a fully root enabled Ubuntu
<phaidros> hm, ok.
<unop> nalioth,  but you did say it "broke things" .. which is what i am interested in really
<ompaul> phaidros, I already said it breaks single user mode
<nalioth> if you enable it AFTER a default install, you may have trouble with some things interacting with root
<ompaul> and don't give me the "remember the root password"
<phaidros> ompaul, could you give a more detailed example please?
<ompaul> people coming into the channel with broken boxes
<unop> ompaul,  what exactly does it break? if you set a root password, it doesnt change in the single user mode, you use the same password
<unop> nalioth,  yes, but what are those things exactly? thats my question
<ompaul> with some builds it stopped people from using single user mode  - cos they had to use a password to get into the box
<ompaul> now I have told you all that twice
<nalioth> we've gotten lots of problems with mysql and apache AS I MENTIONED ABOVE
<ompaul> don't suggest it in #ubuntu simple - and thanks
<phaidros> ompaul, the single user mode is the only issue ?
<unop> ompaul,  that should be considered "abnormal" behaviour and rectified immediately then
<phaidros> people have set root password and forgot it afterwards?
<ompaul> phaidros, yes
<nalioth> unop: not if it is designed that way
<ompaul> phaidros,  if they do most things by sudo after they learn about it - and then don't use it on a daily box
<phaidros> well, thats reson enough to not suggest it in #ubuntu, but does not brake things in my opinion .. again, I'm not about suggesting it, I'm wondering about the concerns ;)
<unop> nalioth,  right, so we are getting somewhere -- in what way are apache and mysql hampered as a result of an enabled root account .. what exactly? because i have installed apache and mysql and not experienced this at all
<phaidros> same same here
<nalioth> "works for me"
<phaidros> well ..
<unop> nalioth,  ah uh, you're playing a trump card here -- please justify yourself, with facts
<phaidros> thanks unop
<nalioth> gentlemen, i'm not here to file bugs
<ompaul> !root
<ubotu> sudo is a command to run programs with superuser privileges ("root"). Look at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RootSudo for all information.
<phaidros> but to give facts to your statements ;)
<ompaul> that is how we do it
<nalioth> the point is, enabling a root account is not called for under any circumstances with  Ubuntu
<ompaul> phaidros, that is what trolls expect are you a troll or do we all go back and start helping again?
<phaidros> ok, I tend to give up my humble request on facts here *sigh
<unop> nalioth,  ahh, this is pointless .. you tell us what to do and when questioned .. have nothing to back up your stances .. i've had enough of this beating aroudn the bush
<ompaul> unop, do this
<phaidros> ompaul, please not that level.
<nalioth> unop: you and phaidros are not the first folks we've had this talk with.  please help folks in #ubuntu with Ubuntu-centric help, not "works for me" help
<phaidros> we came here to find out about issues, and all we here is "ubuntu way" and "works for me arguments" .. sry thats not how i understand a talk between mature human beings. ..
<ompaul> then hang around and watch it fall down when someone uses the likes of automatix or some other crud
<phaidros> ompaul, you getting cynical ;)
<ompaul> phaidros, I have been helping people for more than 10 years on IRC
<phaidros> ok, is there an example for apache or mysql problems with enabled root? yes or no?
<ompaul> phaidros, I may have seen a few things fall apart on users
<phaidros> ompaul, and I just came swimming on a sea of soup over here ??
<ompaul> want me to find some -
<unop> nalioth,  you just arent understanding are you?? did i assert that user's must have root access?? NEVER AT ALL .. infact, i dont recommend users do that, i suggest sudo .. now, you dragged us in here for some reason .. i assume it was because you would clarify why exactly ubuntu takes this stance, but you havent .. and i think we're wasting time in here
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-02-18
<ompaul> unop, your missing the point
<unop> ompaul,  you're not giving me much to work on in understanding why
<phaidros> ompaul, yes would be great if you'd have an example !!
<unop> yes, examples puleeeese
<ompaul> go help in #ubuntu in a ubuntu centric way as it was phrased and I will find some
<ompaul> then I will ping you both here
<phaidros> ok. we can meet here then again :) thanks for diggin into, ompaul!
<unop> ompaul,  so you dont have anything concrete then .. and you're waiting for something to crop up?
<nalioth> unop: he has the same info as me, we don't keep this stuff on file, we just know that it's happened repeatedly
<unop> nalioth,  ok, so these are bugs then? what has this got to do with unix in it's normal operations???
<ompaul> unop, actually tell you what screw this for a game of soldiews
<nalioth> unop: Ubuntu is not "unix in its normal operation", it's Ubuntu in its normal operation
<nalioth> if you want unix, use slackware
<phaidros> nalioth, thats cynical again ;)
<ompaul> no use FreeBSD
<unop> i do use freeBSD .. infact i sit on it right now
<ompaul> my work has me using four different *nx versions
<ompaul> but I will condence that into one
<phaidros> so no examples for breaking things with root on *buntu ??
<unop> ompaul,  4 unices. and yet i find it hard you cant convince me that downsides to enabling root on ubuntu exist apart from "#ubuntu" policy and "works for me"
<ompaul> http://archives.free.net.ph/message/20070131.082448.b477d880.en.html
<ompaul> unop, - the fact is this I gave up trying to run ubuntu as debian or freebsd a long time ago
<ompaul> that is one person on my search
<ompaul> and having this on file as the op says is not what we do
<ompaul> we keep working solutions
<ompaul> http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/showthread.php?t=451478
<ompaul> still loooking for the lamp issue
<unop> ompaul,  both these examples are inconclusive and on random sites (is there nothing in ubuntu's database that is convincing?) .. in the first example, the guy edits the shadow file , well, hey guess what, you expect things like this to break if you do that (which is why visudo was written)..
<phaidros> are these examples occuring regularly ?
<ompaul> google and check it out people are making a mess of stuff
<unop> the second guy doesnt seem to know what he is doing and could have done anything apart from issue "passwd root" properly .. i'm not buying these as bugs
<ompaul> but my query is not right
<unop> ompaul,  you are an op right?
<ompaul> so they tell me
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o ompaul]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o ompaul]  by ChanServ
<ompaul> it appears to be so
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o unop]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o unop]  by ChanServ
<nalioth> looks can be deceiving
<ompaul> that is true
<nalioth> then again, unop should know better than to show off
<unop> so you've been in these channels for a few years atleast -- you must have definitely come across severe and conclusive implications of enabling the root account .. thats what i am after really
<unop> nalioth,  now i feel this is getting personal -- in no way am i showing off, i'm just getting to the bottom of this (with no apparent help from you)
<phaidros> I have to second unop, this is more a rant here, than a helping out with facts betweeen experienced users / ops
<ompaul> unop, and I have megs of logs how do you suggest I search them?
<nalioth> actually that is a good idea
<nalioth> !logs
<ubotu> Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs - See also !OpenWeek
<unop> ompaul,  only if i can find something conclusive where user error has been ruled out and i can readily replicate the problem .. otherwise no
<ompaul> phaidros, the other view is that the question is that four people are not helping that could be and that annoys me
<nalioth> you guys can search #ubuntu logs there for the past years
<phaidros> ompaul, I'm elping two users in private chats right now
<phaidros> tsss
<ompaul> well here is fun I am not
<phaidros> nalioth, I am getting annoyed
<phaidros> ompaul, nalioth sry, but you guys have been 0 (ZERO) help in a understandable question
<phaidros> I'll go and help ppl now.
<nalioth> phaidros: we are not devs, we are general help. we've both seen this problem, but unfortunately we don't catalogue every bobble on the radar
<phaidros> if one of you might come up with a reasonable base for sorting facts on root problem with e.g. apache or mysql i'd be very glad to hear
<nalioth> to know it exists is enough for us
<unop> 30 searches later on launchpad and still nothing - http://www.google.com/search?num=100&complete=1&hl=en&q=site%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Flaunchpad.net+sudo+%22passwd+root%22&btnG=Search
<ompaul> why lp
<ompaul> it is not a bug
<nalioth> no, Ubuntu was made that way.
<ompaul> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/kubuntu-2006-05-11.html
<phaidros> anyway, I'll go on with working, this is time waste. sry guys
<ompaul> that is not an example
<ompaul> that is one result I got
<ompaul> site http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/
<unop> ompaul,  ok what am i looking for here?
<ompaul> you are not use that as search criteria
<ompaul> or do this wait until we get someone who can find us an exact example
<unop> why lp? because thats where the complaints first start appearing (or as so far i have noticed)
<ompaul> ehh better to check lists
<ompaul> lp is only where you get specs and the like
<ompaul> lp is a plan to build and real bugs
<ompaul> having a root password is not a bug - it is a user error
<unop> ompaul,  thats not what that google page says -- it's gone into the bugs.launchpad.net
<unop> ompaul,  thats what you say tho and i outrightly reject .. it is not an error, it's just a preference
<nalioth> unop: it is the way Ubuntu is made.
<ompaul> well neither of us calls it a bug and bugs go in lp
<ompaul> so looking in lp is wrong
<unop> nalioth, yes, ubuntu comes that way but, are people not allowed to change preferences now? is that it? is that what you are saying?
<nalioth> it is not a preference in the default Ubuntu
<nalioth> if you want a root account, use the custom install and have one
<unop> i don't even find other linux users complain or laugh about the fact ubuntu breaks when enabling root (because that is what they'd do almost automatically)
<nalioth> most linux users give sudo a try and continue using it
<nalioth> if they do not, they are knowledgable and advanced enough to fix their own problems
<unop> nalioth,  as I have done too -- without any custom install
<nalioth> #ubuntu is for helping new users (users who have never used a computer or are just here from Windows(tm))
<unop> nalioth,  and most windows users rest in the comfort of having their "Administrator" account enabled and ready to use when needed
<unop> nalioth,  which is why the first question they as is "how do i enable superuser" .. and believe it or not, we tell them to use !sudo
<nalioth> unop: most windows user have no clue what an account is
<unop> nalioth,  thats not true -- a lot of power users know exactly what accounts are, file permissions , ACLs, process privileges, network security etc (they have to know or end up knowing about them, they use insecure systems)
<ompaul> and one side of the sign is gold and the other silver
<unop> anyway, this is drifting off-topic now .. the very reason you brougt me in here was to perhaps "educate" me about sudo on ubuntu -- but i'm unresolved and dont think i'll find an answer anytime soon -- do let me know when you guys find something concrete and replicable, i'm forever interested .. ciao :)
<nalioth> unop: my point is: the problem exists.
<nalioth> unfortunately i do not have every problem i've seen catalogued
<unop> nalioth,  or so you claim and arent definite, thats my challenge
<nalioth> unop: we've both seen it repeatedly in #ubuntu
<ompaul> unop, I'll turn one up maybe not tonight but I will
<nalioth> myself and ompaul
<unop> nalioth,  but surely you'd know or vaguely remember what one of the problems is
<unop> nalioth,  again, so you say and cannot readily show me
<ompaul> unop, I can't tell you what is wrong with automatix - orhter than it brokes stuff
<nalioth> i remember that all the users had enabled the root password
<ompaul> I can tell you that it used to be the worst written software I ever read
<ompaul> unop, when you have dealt with the outcome of other peoples lack of doing the standard thing (if you hang around that long)
<unop> ompaul,  we arent discussing automatix here tho -- whether or not it works, doesnt work, breaks systems doesnt have anything to do with root
<ompaul> it is similar
<unop> i dont think so .. not one bit similar infact
<nalioth> unop: automatix does things in a unix way, not an Ubuntu way.  and Ubuntu invarabily breaks.
<unop> i'm not interested in automatix
<ompaul> unop, as a paradigm it is comparible
<unop> again, i beg to differ and request you put it aside .. i have no contest with regards to automatix
<nalioth> unop: doing things the "unix way" or "the debian way" break Ubuntu
<unop> nalioth,  as i have seen , indeed .. and it's one of the downsides to ubuntu (i personally believe) .. but again, it has little to do with root on ubuntu
<nalioth> Ubuntu was not designed with an active root account in mind (by default) when you twist the design of something, do not expect it to work well
* nalioth has said enough
<ompaul> to change the subject do you like big hondas
* ompaul falls off his chair with tiredness
<ompaul> I have wasted 2 hours in this channel
<ompaul> make that one
<unop> my argument from the start has been that _it does work well_ with no downsides, you say there are, i say where, you say somewhere but i have seen .. :(
<ompaul> well why don't you quit arguing and put in the irc logs and read the 1300 or so entries with !root in them
<ompaul> and see the pain
<ompaul> each one being a day
<ompaul> and you never said if you liked big hondas
<unop> ompaul,  bahh, thats not the issue .. if you contend with me that NEW users fumble, please don't, i know what NEW users are like and _never ever ever_ suggest enabling root .. the _only reason_ i am here is to know the technical details of this preference, _that is all_
<nalioth> it's in the logs
<nalioth> many times
<ompaul> read them
<ompaul> have a nice night I am going to bed
<ompaul> it is seconds away from midnight
<Apollyon_> I have issues with firefox/mozilla and verysign. I am trying to make a payment, but verysign does not accept it. And if I do it with IE it accepts. So ... ???
<nothlit> You should ask in #ubuntu, but anyways you need elaborate more on whats the issue
<Apollyon_> I asked this question in #mozilla, #firefox, #ubuntu, #ubuntu-offtopic But no answer
<nothlit> Anyways, you can always run ie under wine
<nothlit> i wouldn't see why it wouldn't work under FF unless it requires active x
<Apollyon_> nothlit: The issue is: I fill a form, give all the infos and credit card number and then click in submit then verysing declines the deal. It happens with mozilla and firefox. But if I do it in IE it accepts!
<nothlit> i'm sure nobody knows what you mean by verisign declining
<Apollyon_> I don't have window$ in my machine though. I used to, but now no dual-boot at all
<Apollyon_> nothlit: Verysign declining is verysign don't accept the payment deal.
<nothlit> http://www.tatanka.com.br/ies4linux/page/Main_Page
<nothlit> use that, otherwise be more explicit
<Apollyon_> nothlit: What do you want to know more? I have been very explicit :-)
<nothlit> just use ies4linux then...
<Apollyon_> So, how to install that active x in firefox. Is it possible?
<nothlit> yes it sort of is i think
<nothlit> theres an emulation sort of thing, and also one that uses ie's
<Apollyon_> nothlit: Could you point me there?
<soundray> Hi novice
<novice> hi
<novice> can u plz guide me??
<soundray> First of all, have you got any firefox plugins or extensions that you want to keep?
<novice> forget abt dat....... i will do dat again......no  pro...
<soundray> novice: okay. Have you got a terminal open?
<novice> yup
<soundray> 'ls /var/cache/apt/archives/mozilla-firefox_*' -- how many files?
<novice> "no such file or directory"
<soundray> How about 'ls /var/cache/apt/archives/*firefox*'
<novice> next??
<soundray> Any lines from that?
<novice> it is just some arrow mark.....
<novice> *showing
<soundray> novice: Hit Ctrl-C, and don't enter the quotes :)
<novice> sorry......
<soundray> novice: that's fine. It's sometimes easier for me to show you where the command begins and ends with quotes.
<soundray> novice: have you tried again without the quote?
<novice> ya..... i'm getting some lines
<novice> 4 to 5 lines
<soundray> novice: give me one that looks like it's a recent 1.5 package of firefox
<novice> /var/cache/apt/archives/firefox_1.5.dfsg+1.5.0.9-0ubuntu0.5.10.1_i386.deb
<novice> /var/cache/apt/archives/firefox-gnome-support_1.5.dfsg+1.5.0.9-0ubuntu0.5.10.1_i386.deb
<soundray> novice: okay
<soundray> novice: remove the folder with the failed upgrade attempt: 'sudo rm -rf /usr/lib/firefox'
<novice> done......
<soundray> Now, do a 'sudo dpkg -i /var/cache/apt/archives/firefox_1.5.dfsg+1.5.0.9-0ubuntu0.5.10.1_i386.deb'
<soundray> novice: it'll probably complain about some error...
<novice> no..... it didn't show any error
<novice> it showed dat setting up firefox.....
<novice> now asking for next command......
<soundray> novice: it should have recreated the folder. Check with 'ls /var/lib/firefox'
<novice> no such file or directory
<soundray> Sorry, my bad
<soundray> novice: it should have recreated the folder. Check with 'ls /usr/lib/firefox'
<novice> yup........ done....
<novice> now can i start my firefox...
<soundray> novice: to get 2.0, check out this page: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FirefoxNewVersion
<soundray> Note it's better to keep 1.5 around
<novice> Y  dude??
<soundray> novice: that page will tell you
<soundray> novice: you can use 2.0 for browsing, of course
<novice> k.... i have some more doubts...... can i ask U??
<soundray> Of course
<novice> in order copy the folders present on the desktop i used nautilus command ...... instead can't i use any command line
<novice> i tried with sudo cp -r.......
<novice> but it didn't work
<soundray> novice: I don't quite follow. You've got a folder on the desktop that you want to move elsewhere?
<novice> i want to copy into root directory
<novice> for example i downloaded firefox 2.0 folder on to my desktop then i copied dat folder into root directory
<novice> can' t i use any command line
<soundray> novice: there are two directories that are called root directories. One is /root (which is the root user's home), the other is '/', which holds everything else (like /home, /etc, /usr etc.)
<soundray> novice: you shouldn't copy your stuff to either of those.
<soundray> The best place to put your stuff would be your home directory. Type 'echo $HOME' to see what it's called.
<novice> if i want to use then wat command should i use
<novice> echo $HOME
<soundray> 'mv Desktop/foldername $HOME'
<novice> no dude ........ wat i mean is ........ i downloaded some apple icons...... now i want them to put in /usr/share/pixmaps..... frm desktop...
<novice> wat command shld  i use to do dis function??
<novice> i tried with sudo cp -r ...... but didn't work
<novice> so i used nautilus.....
<soundray> novice: if you do 'sudo cp file.xpm /usr/share/pixmaps/', that should work
<novice> no dude it didn't work..... it showed missing destination files
<soundray> Oh, you probably haven't changed to the directory where your stuff is located
<novice> i did dat also....
<soundray> novice: does 'ls /usr/share/pixmaps/' return lots of filenames?
<novice> k........ wait.... i think there shld be gap b\w file name and destination...... rite??
<novice> is dat a pro??
<soundray> Yes, that would be essential ;)
<novice> ya....... dat was the mistake....
<novice> k.... thank u very much......
<novice> can u temme briefly wat u did to restore my firefox?? i just wanna know... if u have time...??
<soundray> No problem -- just give me a minute
<soundray> Okay, back. Still here?
<novice> can u temme briefly wat u did to restore my firefox
<soundray> We looked in your package cache, /var/cache/apt/archive, for a recent firefox package
<soundray> Then we installed that, bypassing the apt mechanism.
<soundray> This restored your botched /usr/lib/firefox
<soundray> dpkg is the program that apt or synaptic also calls in order to do actual installations.
<soundray> dpkg is sometimes more powerful when you're problem-solving.
<soundray> Think of synaptic as the Swiss army knife, and of dpkg as the scalpel ;)
<novice> ya.... i have observed that ....... many times ppl use dpkg to solve the pro
<novice> k..... thank u very much dude..... will u be in this server at this time daily??
<soundray> It varies
<soundray> I'm usually later in the day
<soundray> But there are usually helpful people around. If you ask and don't get a good answer straight away, it's a good idea to ask again after an hour or so
<novice> its k..... i will try to catch u daily ;)
<soundray> because new people keep logging on
<novice> ya ....... i have found many guys who help when i'm in trouble..
<soundray> BTW, have you considered upgrading to Dapper?
<novice> ya.... i will try it today night...
<soundray> Good luck
<novice> thanx....
<Gunirus> novice: Good luck
<novice> gunirus: thanx....
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-02-11
<protonchris> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 13 Feb 13:00: Education Team | 13 Feb 21:00: Server Team | 13 Feb 22:30: Forum Council | 14 Feb 14:00: Desktop Team | 15 Feb 04:00: MOTU | 20 Feb 01:00: TriLoCo-Midwest
<Xavier_Z> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 13 Feb 13:00: Education Team | 13 Feb 21:00: Server Team | 13 Feb 22:30: Forum Council | 14 Feb 14:00: Desktop Team | 15 Feb 04:00: MOTU | 20 Feb 01:00: TriLoCo-Midwest
<boim> \h
<Xavier_Z> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 13 Feb 13:00: Education Team | 13 Feb 21:00: Server Team | 13 Feb 22:30: Forum Council | 14 Feb 14:00: Desktop Team | 15 Feb 04:00: MOTU | 20 Feb 01:00: TriLoCo-Midwest
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-02-12
<joaquin_> ?
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-02-13
<fredrik>  /msg nickserv link <Frippe> <jamboree>
<fredrik>  /msg nickserv link Frippe jamboree
<fredrik> lol
<Frippe>  /msg NickServ IDENTIFY jamboree
<arualavi> o_O
<ktwilight_> no kidding :)
<Zober> hi all
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-02-14
<AlgorithmicContr> She embarrasses me.
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-02-15
<asdfji> hello
<dholbach> MOTU Q&A session in 17 minutes
<dholbach> Welcome to another MOTU Q&A session!
<dholbach> Who do we have here for the session today?
<dholbach> Come on now... don't be shy :)
 * albert23 is trying to fix some bugs
<dholbach> hey albert23 - excellent!
<dholbach> what are you working on?
<albert23> dholbach: gwget2 and gcal
<dholbach> what are the bugs you're looking at?
<albert23> dholbach: gcal fails to run on amd64
<albert23> a rebuild would be sufficient, but the package is quite old
<dholbach> so you're trying to update it at the same time?
<albert23> would I need to update the standards version and dh_compat?
 * HighNo wonders is MOTU Q&A means MOTUs asking stuff or users asking MOTUs... 
<dholbach> HighNo: whoever wants to ask questions about stuff related to MOTU, bring it on
<dholbach> albert23: if you update the standards-version, you say "this package complies with the specified version of the debian policy"
<albert23> dholbach: yes indeed, I checked the summary list of changes for that
<dholbach> for packages we inherit from debian it doesn't make much sense, since it's a one line change 1) we have to merge manually every time we merge with debian, 2) doesn't have any visible impact
<dholbach> albert23: great you read it - the debian policy is the number one document to look things up in
<albert23> So it would be ok to leave standards-version at 3.5.5?
<dholbach> we try to keep the diff between debian and ubuntu as small as possible
<dholbach> absolutely
<albert23> OK, and dh_compat=3, we can leave that as well?
<dholbach> even if lintian complains, it's not something worth doing the upload for
<dholbach> yes, that specifies the debhelper compatibility level - if you have no reason to change it, leave it as it is
<dholbach> we are (or are going to be) in Feature Freeze soon, this means that no new upstream versions are excepted
<albert23> dholbach: so then I just need to request the rebuild?
<HighNo> I tried my first fix on a security related bug and of course it took hours to get things done but I finally manged to upload a debdiff to the bug. I only did it for my system which is feisty - are we supposed to get the fix done for all versions once we started on one version? And is there a nice Wiki describing step by step how doing security fixes (for which an upstream bugfix as been released)?
<dholbach> but if the new version you would use fixes a lot of bugs, you might want to think about requesting a feature freeze exception
<theseinfeld> how long until you get an answer for a FFE?
<dholbach> albert23: just add a debian/changelog entry for the rebuild, then submit it for sponsoring
<albert23> dholbach: OK thanks
<dholbach> theseinfeld: pretty quickly - the 5 people that are on the team are all very good and very reactive
<dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess
<theseinfeld> thanks
<dholbach> is the document you might want to check up on
<dholbach> HighNo: I suggest you get in touch with keescook and jdstrand - they are both the security masters and know what to check and which documents to read
<HighNo> dholbach: thanks.
<dholbach> from the top of my head I don't know of any security related wiki pages or anything, but that's probably just because I always trusted them to do good work and never got into security stuff myself :)
<dholbach> it's great you're all interested in the MOTU landscape - how did you find your journey so far? is everything going OK? things you'd like to see improved?
<HighNo> I didn't do that before too. I was just hanging around in #ubuntu-motu and ScottK came up with it being something one could learn a lot from. So I gave it a try...
 * HighNo praises the MOTUs - #ubuntu-motu is hell of place for quick and good answers.
<dholbach> nice, security is hugely important, so if you can learn something and give Kees and Jamie a hand, that's awesome
<dholbach> what about the documentation? is it OK? do you have the feeling you're all progressing?
<HighNo> They helped me getting my package (not being packaged before) into hardy even 5 days before FF.
<theseinfeld> HighNo you are lucky :)
<HighNo> dholbach: packaging docs were kind of confusing
<dholbach> Feature Freeze is a very busy time
<dholbach> HighNo: do you have an example or anything specific you'd like to see change?
<HighNo> dholbach: it was the pure amount of information and not having a nice step-by-step thing.
<HighNo> dholbach: if there is a packaging guide hello-world thing, I didn't find it, if there is none - we need it :-)
<dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted links to it
<dholbach> it's http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide
 * albert23 thinks the packaging guide is great
<dholbach> if that's not obvious enough, we need to fix it
<dholbach> hey walmis
<dholbach> albert23: I'm glad you say that
<bardyr> how much programming/scripting knowledge do you need to create perfect debs?
<dholbach> I spent quite a lot of time merging millions of wiki pages into it :)
<dholbach> bardyr: good question :)
<HighNo> dholbach: as I said, there was too much info on it. I love check lists that have a linked 'why' thing on it. like this one: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UpstreamGuide  (not surprisingly I did the list part :-)
<theseinfeld> define perfect debs bardyr?
<dholbach> bardyr: check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/FAQ#head-1459f4f9811bc9dde6cae1af4c36c954ba1cad39
<theseinfeld> :D
<dholbach> if you start learning modifying packages, creating new packages from scratch is just a step away
<dholbach> HighNo: like http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/HandsOn ?
<bardyr> dholbach, thanks :)
<HighNo> dholbach: the problem is - I started by packaging a new one. qute adventurous :-)
<dholbach> yes it is, I learned a lot from looking at other packages and trying to fix them first
<HighNo> dholbach: Doh! I didn't read that one!
<theseinfeld> dholbach can you add about the debian files like .dirs, .install, .files something in the howto?
<HighNo> dholbach: it only took me 14 uploads to get my package advocated :-) I am sure some MOTUs have me on their ignore list (or were seriously thinking about it)
<theseinfeld> dholbach I know that people can find the info in some man pages or google, but to save them from the trouble...and yes, I know I could add them myself...but...heck I love delegating :))
<dholbach> theseinfeld: added to my todo list
<dholbach> I will put that Improving Docs todo list on the wiki somewhere soon
<dholbach> HighNo: not really
<dholbach> there's so much stuff to bear in mind
<theseinfeld> also a section about watch
<dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Recipes/DebianWatch
<theseinfeld> I don't remember seeing it in the howto's...ok...it is there now...I am getting old :))
<dholbach> if you come across a really good package and you can get others to agree on that, we should add it to http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Lists/ReferencePackages
<dholbach> any more questions?
<HighNo> I have to go now but will read the transscript later on. One last thing - even though it was a lot of work I had a great time creating the package and talking to all the geeks in #ubuntu-motu.
<albert23> dholbach: what is the exact requirement for build twice on a row?
<albert23> Does it also apply to source build after binary build?
<dholbach> albert23: are you referring to building a package two times (two different compile options for example)
<albert23> dholbach: I have a package using automake. It builds and runs fine, but doing debuild -S after a binary build fails
<dholbach> ahh ok
<albert23> The changes from automake cannot be represented in the diff
<dholbach> that's probably because the clean target does not do it's job alright
<dholbach> in the pristine tarball from upstream, does    make distcheck    work?
<dholbach> that's usually a good way to test it
<albert23> dholbach: I haven't tried that
<dholbach> if that fails, it's probably an upstream bug
<albert23> dholbach: This is one example: dpkg-source: cannot represent change to intltool-merge.in:
<dholbach> is the version number and the source directory name correct?
<dholbach> that can be a problem too
<albert23> yes, they seem to be ok
<dholbach> <package> (<upstreamversion>-<revision>)...    in debian/changelog
<dholbach> <package>-<upstreamversion>   <- as source directory name
<dholbach> oh and also the .orig.tar.gz
<dholbach> <package>_<upstreamversion>.orig.tar.gz
<dholbach> the versioning should be the problem in this case
<dholbach> intltool-merge.in is just a text file and the change should be easily representable in the diff
 * warp10 joins the classroom...
<dholbach> hey warp10
<dholbach> good to have you
<warp10> hi dholbach and all... and sorry for coming so late
<albert23> dholbach: it says new version is symlink,  old version is something else
<albert23> But I guess this is indeed a problem and I need to fix it
<dholbach> albert23: try to make it non-symlinks and stick to the pattern I mentioned above
<theseinfeld> dholbach, when you use launchpad PPA and REVU and you build in PPA, should you have a convention there as well?
<theseinfeld> dholbach I am asking you this because people might use PPA and later when they get the packages from REVU/distro might get into trouble with superseeding?
<dholbach> theseinfeld: I'm sorry, but I have to admit that we don't have a good review process around PPAs yet
<dholbach> yes, getting the versioning in PPA right is critically important
<theseinfeld> dholbach there is no review process there :) but the building itself, nevertheless, there are people using PPAs as repositories
<dholbach> 1.2.3-4ubuntu5~ppa6 for example would be OK
<theseinfeld> like KDE4 people
<theseinfeld> and then, when it gets into the upstream you find yourself in a mess
<dholbach> does everybody know about the ~ operator in versions?
<theseinfeld> yes
<theseinfeld> and still...
<theseinfeld> lets say 0ubuntu1~hardy1~svn123~ppa123
<dholbach> still=
<dholbach> still?
<theseinfeld> I am thinking that it might be good to have it mentioned somewhere?
<theseinfeld> for ethernity :)
<theseinfeld> s/ethernity/eternity/
<dholbach> it is mentioned in http://help.launchpad.net/PPAQuickStart
<dholbach> which is THE ppa howto
<dholbach> if you think there should be more capital letters, I can pass this on .)
<theseinfeld> checing
<dholbach> "Versioning:"
<theseinfeld> s/checing/checking/
 * dholbach needs a new keyboard, my shift key keeps on popping out
 * theseinfeld too...
<theseinfeld> Ok, you are right, it was there :)
 * theseinfeld recommends people to use the PPA for builds and publishing...
<dholbach> any other questions? things we could improve? wacky ideas about initiatives we should start?
<warp10> dholbach: I have a question
<dholbach> warp10: shoot
<warp10> I made it on -motu today, but didn't get an answer,
<theseinfeld> dholbach can we also suggest improvements for the revu?
<warp10> I made a debdiff for a bug I worked on. This debdiff has been rejected by a sponsor because it FTFBS. I pushed it on my PPA and it builds fine there. Do you think this is enough to say that my debdiff works and can resubscribe u-u-s?
<dholbach> theseinfeld: I'm not a REVU hacker or admin, but I can pass it on
<dholbach> warp10: sure, best to ask the sponsor what the problem was he mentioned
<dholbach> warp10: it could be that it just fails in a certain scenario or something
<warp10> dholbach: the sponsor attached its log to the bug report. It is bug #190845
<theseinfeld> dholbach it will be nice that you can login from the package page (if it sees that you are not in, instead of displaying the info that you should go in the main, it could just add the form so user can login) AND
<warp10> well, https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/seamonkey/+bug/190845
 * dholbach takes a look
<theseinfeld> dholbach revu after you submit a description, the package URL is not shown...(it goes as http push or something so it is not in the link...)
<dholbach> theseinfeld: I think there's a revu product in launchpad, maybe you can file a bug there?
<dholbach> theseinfeld: the suggestions sound good though
<dholbach> warp10: try to point Luke to the ppa build log
<warp10> dholbach: I will do. Probably TheMuso will be online this evening or tonight
<dholbach> he's in .au
<warp10> Is it correct to say that if a package builds in a PPA, it will surely build with buildd?
<dholbach> it should, afaik the buildds are nearly identical
<albert23> warp10: it might be the broken dpkg earlier this week...
<dholbach> minus some scripts that run on the ubuntu buildds
<dholbach> Can't locate POSIX.pm in @INC     is weird
<warp10> albert23: ah, good pointer... maybe that's the problem.
<dholbach> warp10: also you can ask asac - he's the mozilla king
<albert23> the error message refers to Dpkg/ErrorHandling.pm
<warp10> indeed, it shows Dpkg/ErrorHandling.pm
<dholbach> ahh!
<dholbach> good point
<warp10> dholbach: he mentored me for that debdiff :)
<dholbach> I see we have some people with detective skills here :)
<dholbach> rock and roll - good work everybody :)
 * warp10 loves PPA
<theseinfeld> dholbach bug #192120 for revu
<dholbach> yeah, it's nice
<dholbach> thanks theseinfeld
 * theseinfeld loves PPA too...
<dholbach> theseinfeld, warp10: I passed on the praise :)
 * theseinfeld grins...
<dholbach> :-)
<theseinfeld> check bug #191892
<warp10> :D
<theseinfeld> in soyuz
<dholbach> oh, speaking about PPA and stuff
<theseinfeld> It killed my brain 3 days ago
<dholbach> I hope you all come to Ubuntu Developer Week next week
 * theseinfeld nods at dholbach
<KEBA> are the lessons easy enaugh to unerstand for beginners, who use ubuntu since tweo month?
<dholbach> we have a bunch of good sessions coming up, one of them about PPAs
 * theseinfeld wishes to come...but too busy at work...
<warp10> dholbach: you can guess on it! I'm looking forward for UDW
<dholbach> KEBA: in this session right now we're asking and answering questions about the MOTU project
<dholbach> warp10: rock on
<dholbach> theseinfeld: at least they'll be logged
 * theseinfeld nods
<dholbach> any session you would have liked to see which is not on the schedule?
 * dholbach tried to get a diverse set of speakers
<warp10> dholbach: a session about merges and sync would be nice
<dholbach> if you guys are happy, I'm happy too
<jcastro> I have a debdiff question: Let's say I have a .patch from someone to fix a bug; which is more appropriate, to put a patch in debian/patches, or just generate a debdiff?
<warp10> maybe someone will speak about within another session
<dholbach> james_w will cover some of it in his debian session, and I'll try to do some of it in the motu processes one
<dholbach> warp10: but yeah, important and good point
 * warp10 loves merges and syncs too :)
<dholbach> jcastro: if the package uses a patch system like dpatch of cdbs' simple-patchsys, you stick the patch into debian/patches and then generate the debdiff
<jcastro> ok
<dholbach> jcastro: if it doesn't use a patch system it's usually not worth introducing a new dependency to use one
<dholbach> I think there's a script called what-patch in ubuntu-dev-tools which finds out for you which system is used
<jcastro> ah, ok, I will try that
<dholbach> afaik Kees wrote it
<jcastro> yes, you are correct, what-patch works, it's in ubuntu-dev-tools
<dholbach> nice
<dholbach> ubuntu-dev-tools is good stuff
<jcastro> yeah I just am looking at it -- manpages for me this morning!
<dholbach> hehe :)
<dholbach> are there any other questions?
<dholbach> in addition to UDW, I need to plug https://wiki.ubuntu.com/5-A-Day :)
<warp10> cool :)
<albert23> Will the sponsors still like us if we all do that :-)
<dholbach> yeah, the best thing since sliced bread
<dholbach> we will announce it during UDW, but it'd be great to have some traction before that :)
<warp10> I'll give a try to it, sounds pretty funny! :-)
<dholbach> rock and roll
<dholbach> if there are no more questions, let's close the session for today - my dog needs walking and the sun is shining right now :)
<dholbach> and ask all your questions in #ubuntu-motu
<albert23> Many thanks dholbach!
<warp10> thanks dholbach!
<jcastro> thanks!
<dholbach> thanks go to YOU guys
<dholbach> you rock :)
<dholbach> see you around
<andy2> exit
<AlgorithmicContr> Could someone help me set up an SSH server?
<astabeno> AlgorithmicContr: This is not a support channel, try #ubuntu for support
<billybobo231> wasn't there a class on packaging today?  I kept the IRC window logging all day to later read what I missed, and there really isn't anything here...
<Megaqwerty> billybobo231: yes, there was. I'll pastebin my logs for you if you'd like.
<billybobo231> please
<Megaqwerty> billybobo231: http://pastebin.ca/905729
<billybobo231> :) thanks Mega!
<Megaqwerty> You're welcome!
<billybobo231> whoa thats early AM!  i started my logging after that happened i guess!
<Megaqwerty> billybobo231: I'm PST
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-02-16
<Megaqwerty> billybobo231: so the time might be different for you. (PST = Pacific Standard Time)
<billybobo231> i'm CST
<billybobo231> so an hour diff
<billybobo231> oh wait two
<billybobo231> whatevs
<Megaqwerty> Yeah, I woke up and realized I'd missed the whole thing already ;)
<Megaqwerty> Lucky I kept my IRC window open.
<duo_> anybody here?
<duo_> when the Ubuntu Developer Week begin
<KEB1> so here?
<KEB1> is nobody of 60 people avaible?
<nalioth> KEB1: please read the /topic
<nalioth> KEB1: support is in #ubuntu
<KEB1> yes i know this, but cant we speak here about the next week?
<KEB1> why are more than sixty people in this channel?
<nalioth> lots of people idle
<KEB1> idle? what does that mean?
<nalioth> KEB1: it means to be here and not say anything for hours or weeks on end
<KEB1> ahh...
<KEB1> so theyre only waiting for next week?
<nalioth> some have joined here years ago and never left
<nalioth> some never speak
<KEB1> lol
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-02-17
<ryanakca> pleia2: ping
<tacone> jrib: we solved. thank you anyway
<tacone> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-vfs2/+bug/85608
<tacone> (it worked only restarting X afterwards) thank you very much for your support.
<jrib> tacone: cool thanks
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-02-09
<dou213> hi guys, can somebody help me set up my ftp-server correctly? i am behind my router, trying to connect with FileZilla within the lan on an ubuntu server box, when i connect unencrypted it works just fine, when i do it with SSL it gives me an error: Connection timed out!
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-02-10
<mitesh> I am a college student from India and ubuntu user. I wish to organize Global Bug Jam in my college and dont know how to begin, any suggestions?
<somaunn> hello
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-02-11
<d-b> hi is it appropriate to ask about a topic to be taught or explained ?
<d-b> (in this irc room)
<cprofitt> d-b, usre
<cprofitt> sure
<d-b> ok well i would like to learn about patching a bug.
<d-b> and debian diffs.
<cprofitt> I do not know about debian diffs
<cprofitt> what do you need to know about patching bugs?
<d-b> well if you fix or change the source of a package where do you note that ? if you wanted to..
<d-b> its in /src/debian (right ?)-> but where and how ...
<somaunn> hello
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-02-13
<dholbach> HEYA!
<dholbach> sorry for being ... a bit late :)
 * dholbach hugs y'all
<dholbach> thanks bac for reminding me
<dholbach> who's here for some bug jam loving?
<bac> me
 * pedro_ waves
<dholbach> hey pedro_
<dholbach> I just pinged the folks in #ubuntu-locoteams
<dholbach> let's wait another 2-3 minutes
<dholbach> hi somaunn
<dholbach> hiya mnemo
<mnemo> howdy :)
 * Rafik_ is here
<dholbach> alrighty... shall we start with a quick round of introductions?
<dholbach> who's who and which loco are you from?
 * dholbach is Daniel Holbach and from the Berlin team, Germany
 * bac is brad crittenden from the North Carolina, US loco
 * pedro_ is Pedro Villavicencio from the Chilean LoCo team
<dholbach> hiya _marx_
 * Rafik is Rafik Ouerchefani, from Tunisia.
<dholbach> come on guys... don't be shy :)
 * _marx_ Mark Cox US-NC team
<mnemo> martin olsson from gothenburg, sweden originally.. living in copenhagen though..
 * _marx_ has to go to work so I'm logging this session
<dholbach> hiya barcc_
<dholbach> alrighty...
 * _marx_ is away: at  work
<dholbach> how far have you guys got with organising your global bug jam session?
<dholbach> fortunately in Berlin we have a venue we can use for this kind of events, we just need to still pick a day (saturday or sunday) and announce it properly
<dholbach> how are you guys doing?
<bac> we've got an excellent venue and about 8-10 people coming
<bac> all first timers, including me
<dholbach> bac: wow, nice - did you have any trouble organising it?
<bac> no.  we have a local for-profit "co-working" site that let's sprint, etc use the space.  large conference room, projector, free wifi, lots of power outlets.  it rocks.
<dholbach> hi emmajane
<dholbach> bac: cool - how did you go about announcing it and reaching out?
<emmajane> dholbach, hello :)
<bac> so far just on the mailing list and IRC chats
<dholbach> cool
<dholbach> I was interested because I know that in the past a few teams have talked to LUGs in the area or even put up posters in book shops
<dholbach> how about everybody else?
<dholbach> does anybody have questions already?
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RunningBugJam#Material has a good bunch of material about how to run bug jams, but I realise that it might not be "everything" :)
<dholbach> so... ask :)
<bac> dholbach: how about if you start at the beginning.  what should be the goal for a loco group bugjam?
 * bac hasn't read through the materials yet. sorry.
<dholbach> right
<dholbach> the goal for the bug jam should only be: bring people together and have fun working directly on Ubuntu
<dholbach> even if you guys don't get to "fixing bugs" a few clever questions or reassigning some bugs is a good start
<dholbach> if you have a lot of fun together, even better
<dholbach> there's always a few things you need to organise: a venue, have a good announcement and preparing the session itself
<dholbach> if you can't find a venue and you're just a few people, you can even do it at your house, just ask everybody to bring a few snacks :-)
<dholbach> pedro_: want to talk a bit about how we can help newcomers to have a good start with bug triage?
<pedro_> sure
<pedro_> one of the issues that we have encounter here while organizing the bug jams
<pedro_> is that new triagers doesn't really know where to start
<pedro_> ok we have launchpad accounts, bugs, internet connection, etc so where to next?
<pedro_> what you can do first is a little talk about bug status
<pedro_> what triaged means, what's the difference between fix released and fix committed, etc
<pedro_> you're probably going to have a few questions regarding that
<dholbach> ther material section I talked about earlier has a presentation in English (and Spanish) that can help you with that
<pedro_> and it's pretty important to get to know those things before doing any change on the reports ;-)
<dholbach> hehe :)
<pedro_> yes there's a pretty good presentation about it, so please review it and if you have comments from the audience take some notes and then add them as a feedback to the page
<pedro_> or send them to us
<dholbach> one point that's really important about it is: try to make it all about people doing good work together and actually themselves trying to learn the ropes
<dholbach> it might be boring to stand 3-5 hours in front of an audience who is expecting a demo / talk, etc.
<dholbach> it help if you prepared a list of bugs you want the team to look at or something
<dholbach> and let them try
<dholbach> so move away from the front of the audience early :)
<pedro_> yes yes
<pedro_> well regarding targets what'd i suggest for start doing some triage is start with the bugs without a package
<pedro_> trust me we have *quite* a lot of that
<dholbach> hehe
<dholbach> do we have any questions about that already?
<pedro_> from where do you get the list of those bugs? :-)
<pedro_> at the GBJ page there's a list of easy tasks if you go there you'll see at the top of the list the one for the bugs without a package with even an example
<dholbach> Rafik, pedro_, bac, _marx_: do you have any tips you can share?
<pedro_> well here what we do is create bug lists (with bugnumbers) for people to work on based on the ones from the easy tasks page
<pedro_> and we work on them like announcing the bug number in which you're working on so other people can skip that one
<pedro_> that works fine for us at least
<Rafik> [Question] if we don't have a really experienced person in the team, where to ask for help if we unsure about something ? (#ubuntu-bugs, find a mentor on videoconf, ..)
<dholbach> #ubuntu-bugs is definitely a good answer there
<dholbach> if you can help people to ask their own questions in the bigger team you help them a lot already
<dholbach> any other questions=?
<bac> i have a question from reading https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs about package organization in LP
<bac> it says each package in ubuntu has a bugs page in LP
<bac> but, looking for bugs for 'initscript' for a friend, i see it doesn't exist.
<bac> er, 'initscripts', i mean
<pedro_> isn't that sysvinit ?
<bac> pedro, yes, but the package name, as shown by dpkg, is initscripts.  so is there not a 1:1 matching?
<soren> bac: All *source* packages have a bug page. Each source package might generate multiple (differently named) binary packages.
<bac> soren: ah, right.  thanks
<soren> sysvinit, for instance, generates all of these: sysvinit, sysvinit-utils, sysv-rc, initscripts, sysvutils
<bac> soren: and how does one find the source package for a given binary package?
<soren> bac: "apt-cache show initscripts" shows info about the binary package.
<bac> excellent
<soren> Among other things, it has a "Source: " field.
<soren> That's what you want.
<bac> dholbach: i think the materials on the wiki are very thorough and will be a great primer for our loco to do our first bug jam.
<dholbach> super
<dholbach> maybe you can ask the guys if they have interest in doing another one
<dholbach> I'm going to write up my experiences with the regular bug jams in berlin later today and send it to loco-contacts
<dholbach> do we have any open questions? everybody clear on how to proceed?
<dholbach> everybody added themselves and their teams to  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GlobalBugJam ?
<dholbach> all friends invited?
<dholbach> poked a few people from other locos already? :)
<bac> dholbach: how often does the berlin loco do bugjams?  what kind of turnout do you have?
<dholbach> bac: every two weeks
<dholbach> it's very different every time :)
<dholbach> we had events with 15 people, we have jams with 4
<dholbach> we sometimes had really new people who had never heard of launchpad before
<dholbach> we sometimes even manage to patch packages
<dholbach> I promise to write up my experiences later today :)
<dholbach> the most important thing is really making only very little about giving talks
<bac> dholbach: how long do you generally meet?
<dholbach> ~3h
<dholbach> some people wanted to extend it and we're thinking about it
<bac> thanks for the chat dholbach and pedro_.  it was helpful.
<dholbach> great :)
<dholbach> I so look forward to Global Bug Jam
<dholbach> it's going ot be great
<dholbach> Rafik: do you have everything planned yourself already?
<pedro_> yeah can't wait ;-)
<Rafik> dholbach> I tried to talk to friends and people around here. Many are very interested but don't know what bug triage is. I hope that this first experience will a least let the people know about how it works
<dholbach> Rafik: sounds good - so you have everything set up already?
<Rafik> I hope so. There is also a talk about having some people from others cities over internet
<pleia2> Rafik: that's not a bad idea :) I think I'll suggest that here too
<dholbach> nice
<Rafik> There is also an idea : If we ensure a good number of attendees, we'll maybe ask in #ubuntu-bugs if someone with more experience could assist us
<dholbach> sure... do ask!
<dholbach> shall we continue in #ubuntu-locoteams?
<Rafik> ok
<dholbach> thanks everybody!
<pedro_> thanks you
<Rafik> thank you
<YoBoY> hi, i missed the classroom :( (again)
<jcastro> 15 minutes warning!
<nhandler> I'm ready
<jacob> what a great way to start the UNIX new year: bugjam! :P
<jcastro> Happy 1234567890 everyone!
<jcastro> we'll give it a few more minutes just in case people are running late
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-02-14
<jcastro> ok everyone, let's get started
<jcastro> please announce yourself and from which LoCo you hail from
<jcastro> I'm Jorge Castro and I'm from ubuntu-michigan
<nhandler> I'm Nathan Handler and I'm with ubuntu-chicago
<jcastro> For the next hour I will be running a session on how to run an effective "bug jam" for your Local Team
<jcastro> LoCo teams from around the world will be participating in the Ubuntu Global Bug Jam: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GlobalBugJam
<jacob> jacob from ohio..!
<jcastro> so the primary goal of these sessions are to provide help, tips, and tricks in how to make that more efficient and fun for everyone
<jcastro> though a LoCo can have bug jams as much as they want
<jcastro> For example in Berlin they have a bug jam every 2 weeks!
<jcastro> Looks like we have good representation from the midwest
<jcastro> anyone else?
<jcastro> ok, let's continue. :)
<jacob> heh, small group.
<jcastro> So, the primary piece of documentation that is important for a bug jam is this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RunningBugJam
<jcastro> if you're doing a real life bug jam, ie. meeting someplace
<jcastro> then the venue is probably the most important part
<jacob> jcastro: bug jams have been done online? wasn't aware of that
<jcastro> because that takes planning and choosing a location that fits for the loco
<jcastro> yes, in fact, one of the most successful groups during the last GBJ was club-ubuntu
<jcastro> which is a group of people without a physical loco
<jacob> mm, interesting.
<jcastro> of course, we encourage people to get together physically
<jcastro> in fact, the goal of the bug jam isn't so much fixing bugs, as it is an opportunity for the loco to get together and have a good time
<jcastro> so you shouldn't have a goal of something like "We should try to do X bugs as a loco"
<jcastro> the goal should be that everyone has a good time
<jcastro> and learned something about ubuntu
<jcastro> so your venue should probably be centrally located
<jcastro> or on a place that's easy for people from around the area to congregate at
<jcastro> power and internet are of course important.
<nhandler> And a projector can come in handy too
<jcastro> yep
<jcastro> one thing we found useful
<jcastro> was to tell people to get their launchpad accounts ready beforehand.
<jacob> Panera has been friendly with the power and wireless, though they have a 30min cap on wifi as of a few months ago (d'oh)
<jcastro> new people will show up and need accounts, but it helps if you can get people to at least do those before they show up
<jcastro> the projector is useful because we used it to keep a list o bugs we were working on
<jcastro> and when someone got "stuck", someone would put the bug on the projector
<jcastro> and then the group would go over the bug, discuss possible actions, and then recommend what to do
<jcastro> this is useful because it allows new people to see how bug workflow works
<jcastro> and it allows you to work together
<jcastro> because it's easy to get rusty if you're not doing your 5-a-day. :)
<jcastro> Promoting the jam is also key
<jcastro> on the wiki page we provide a PDF that you can print
<jcastro> (someone even translated it to spanish!)
<jcastro> of course we encourage people to blog/dent/post on the forums, etc.
<jcastro> You'll want to take pictures of the jam so you can share those with other Local Teams
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GlobalBugJam
<jcastro> if you look on that page you'll see a list of bugs that we've classified from easy to hard.
<nhandler> jcastro: You mentioned 5-a-day a few minutes ago. I would just like to mention that Daneil Holbach is currently working on improving 5-a-day, and plans to release a new version prior to the Global Bug Jam.
<jcastro> right
<jcastro> it'll be easy to just join a team
<jcastro> instead of having an applet and all that
<jacob> cool, i think that was a bit of a barrier when introducing some to 5-a-d
<jcastro> For your new volunteers, something like "New bugs without a package assigned to them" would be useful
<jcastro> yeah, that's why it's going away
<jcastro> you'll just join your loco group in lp, and a 5-a-day group
<jcastro> and then that's it
<jcastro> Bugs marked for expiration are also good for beginners
<jcastro> one can probably check those bugs for days asking the reporter if they still experience the bug.
<jcastro> For more advanced and intermediate people we have lists as well
<nhandler> needs-packaging bugs are also pretty easy to triage.
<jcastro> yep
<jcastro> You can pair people off, or small groups, or individual, whatever works for your team
<jcastro> I tend to like pairing off experienced people with new people
<jcastro> the experienced person won't get as many bugs done, but in the long run teaching their knowledge pays off
<jcastro> plus since it's face-to-face, you can get alot of tutoring done, and then let the new person improve on their own after the GBJ
<jcastro> teaching someone to fish vs. giving them a fish kind of thing
<jcastro> any questions so far?
<nhandler> Nope
<jcastro> We also have a video of how to run a bug jam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBY7wfX2jpA
<jacob> would it be a good idea to try to get a bug jam of sorts going on during a release party?
<jcastro> also, all the videos in the developer channel
<jacob> those have been ohio's most successful events in terms of attendance
<jcastro> you could have those running on the projector too while people are doing stuff
<jcastro> yes
<nhandler> jacob: I believe that is what the French Loco did too
<jacob> while the idea of a bug jam on the mailing lists has been met with a bit of silence
<jcastro> in fact, we want LoCos to spontaneously run jams
<jcastro> we also encourage locos to run jams at events
<jcastro> so while we didn't have internet at the ohio linuxfest we still had a tutorial session on bug best practices, etc.
<jacob> (if only there was internet access at OLF, that would be a great place for one)
<jcastro> yeah
<jcastro> We didn't try this at my loco last year but we plan to try
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GlobalBugJam/Bingo
 * nhandler found the greasemonkey script annoying
<jcastro> you can also think of local prizes or ways of rewarding people who are doing well
<jcastro> again, don't worry about the actual numbers, worry about having a smooth run event where people are having a good time
<jcastro> some loco's have jams at pubs, or they might go to a pub after, or whatever
<jcastro> so it's very much a social thing
<jcastro> a new volunteered shouldn't feel bummed out if they only get through one bug for example
<jcastro> every little contribution is appreciated
<jacob> i think our (ohio's) main barrier is getting people to *go* to the actual events - plenty show up on irc ;)
<jcastro> well
<jcastro> for non-GBJ days you can always do what club ubuntu does
<jcastro> pick a date on the calendar and just do it in irc.
<jcastro> sometimes a LoCo might want to pick one thing and work on those bugs
<jcastro> for example "hey, we all like pidgin, let's focus on that."
<jcastro> or something
<jacob> jcastro: we've been doing that with a bit of success on Friday's, "5-a-day Friday"
<jcastro> ah, excellent.
<jcastro> I didn't know that, you should blog that. :D
<jacob> it's quieted down recently, but i think i'll poke some people to get it running :P
<nhandler> jacob: You might also consider turning it into a community-wide Bug Day
<jacob> yeah, that's an idea. something for #ubuntu-bugs perhaps?
<jcastro> whichever way works for your LoCo is encouraged.
<jcastro> yeah, there are existing bug days
<jcastro> called hug days
<jacob> right
<jcastro> it might be a good idea to just get your loco started in that
<jcastro> and just set some small but attainable goals
<jcastro> like "this cycle we'll do 2 hug days and the GBJ"
 * jacob searches for the next hugday
<nhandler> February 19 jacob
<jacob> nhandler: thanks, that's close
<jcastro> in our LoCo we really only do the release party and the GBJ as our two main events per cycle
<nhandler> jacob: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20090219
<jcastro> and inbetween people try to do their 5-a-day
<jcastro> any other questions or ideas?
<nhandler> What wiki pages would you recommend showing to new contributors at/prior to the GBJ?
<jcastro> ah
<jcastro> good question
<jacob> just remembered this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OhioTeam/5-A-Day-Friday if you're interested in that
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs
<jcastro> so we've revamped these pages to be easier to read
<jcastro> and not so daunting
<jacob> jcastro: indeed, those are much more pretty than I remember
<jcastro> triaging is probably the best thing to get people started on
<jcastro> It wouldn't hurt at the beginning of the jam for someone to go over a simple bug
<jcastro> and the documentation
<jcastro> though it's broken right now, remember staging.launchpad.net is a test instance of lp with test data
<jcastro> so you can  make example bugs in there to help teach people
<jcastro> without adding noise to the normal bug tracker
<nhandler> Will staging.launchpad.net be up again by the GBJ?
<jcastro> that is useful because people can click around and get a hang of it
<jacob> ah, another thing - ustream.tv, works out well for demonstrating bugs if you have the right video hardware for streaming
<jcastro> yeah it's been messed up today
<jcastro> normally it's up and around though
<jcastro> hmmm, any other tips?
<nhandler> We have the Greasemonkey scripts that are very helpfuli
<nhandler> s/helpfuli/helpful/
<jcastro> ah, good pointer
<jcastro> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/launchpad-gm-scripts
<jcastro> though I would let the intermediate/advanced users use those
<jcastro> I have found that explaining GM in the first place can get complicated for people
<nhandler> I find the karma script very useful. It shows a user's LP name next to their real name. It also shows their karma and certain teams that they are on. This is useful for spotting comments from more experienced users.
<jacob> nhandler: +1, i've added other teams to that script (our loco for example, makes it easy to spot team activity)
<jcastro> that's a good idea
<jcastro> I am trying to think of other wacky ideas
<jcastro> but this is pretty straightforward and both your LoCos have been around for a while
<jacob> bug jeopardy? "i'll have 'Bugs without a Package' for $500"
<jcastro> haha
<nhandler> What would you advise LoCo's that don't really have any experienced bug triagers do to participate in the GBJ?
<jcastro> nhandler: I always learn by following along
<nhandler> jcastro: Following along where? In #ubuntu-bugs?
<jcastro> one thing I find useful is finding a person who is an experienced triager and follow their work
<jcastro> yep, either in irc or on launchpad
<jcastro> for example (give me a sec)
<jcastro> ok so Pedro is a good example of an experienced bug person
<jcastro> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/~pvillavi
<jcastro> that's the list of bugs he's touched
<jcastro> you can have new people open a bunch of those in their browser
<jcastro> and see how he does his work
<nhandler> Most of the people at the top of the 5-a-day list (http://daniel.holba.ch/5-a-day-stats/) are pretty experienced too
<jcastro> yep
<jcastro> and also, ubuntu-bugs will be hopping with people
<jcastro> and of course they will be available to answer questions, etc.
<jcastro> one thing I find useful for the irc channel
<jcastro> is to have one person representing the group
<jcastro> and ask the questions on irc
<jcastro> and then announce the answer or whatever in the room
<nhandler> jcastro: Didn't bdmurray create a tag for LP that was used for new triagers to request help?
<jcastro> that way you don't have people sitting next to each other all asking the same questions.
<jcastro> hmm, I don't recall that
<jcastro> but that is a good idea
<jcastro> I will ask him and then add the info to the bug page
<nhandler> Thanks a lot jcastro
<jcastro> wow, that seems like a really great idea now that I think about it
<jcastro> but at the minimum, if someone is totally lost, having them follow along with someone else or just watching a bug will help them
<jcastro> bug work can be complicated and frustrating, so don't force it, go at their pace.
<jcastro> any other ideas or questions?
<jcastro> well, as always, people can ask questions on the loco lists
<jcastro> or get ahold of me via jorge@ubuntu.com
<jcastro> so go forth and conquer bugs!
<jcastro> if you use KDE, you can go forth and konquer bugs!
<nhandler> Thanks a lot for giving this great session jcastro !
<nhandler> :)
<jcastro> thank you for coming!
<jacob> great session jcastro :)
<jcastro> happy unix epoch everyone!
 * jacob parties \o/
<Rafik> thx jcastro :)
<jcastro> wow, a fourth person!
<nhandler> jcastro: I think you had a few people silently watching the session.
<mattt> i found out about this channel too late, doh!  :)
<nhandler> IRC Logs for jcastro's session are available here: http://paste.ubuntu.com/117893/
<mattt> handy, tnx
<nhandler> You're welcome matt
<andresmujica> hmm...
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-02-15
<Cyrille-Lauker> salut
<Cyrille-Lauker> quelqu'un pourrait m'aider?
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-02-15
<simo_> hi
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-02-16
<leoquant> leoquant
<cjohnston> I'm trying to teach my two year old to say his name too... ;-)
<mhall119|work> lol
<nikbes> exit
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-02-18
<wolter> Hi, can somebody teach me how to reprofile my ubuntu karmic koala system
<nigelb> wolter: please ask in #ubuntu, that is the main support channel.
<wolter> ok, thanks... nobody has replied to me, but ill keep the persistence going
<stasi_> hello!
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-02-21
<jimisrvrox> hey folks im in need of opinions...ive got 3 laptop choices that I am going to get one tomorrow LENOVO G530-24 Intel Pentium Dual Core Processor T3400, LENOVO G530 15.4" notebook featuring an Intel Pentium Dual Core Processor T4200, or LENOVO G530-23 Intel Pentium DualCore T3400 2GB Memory 160GB HDD Im pulling them off of frys.com but what im looking for is a laptop at around the 350 mark...
<jimisrvrox> ...that will play decently with linux
<persia> jimisrvrox: This channel is only used for scheduled classes.  You may find that you get more useful reponses to that class of query in #ubuntu
<jimisrvrox> oh heh
<jimisrvrox> well im just putzing around other chans besides that one
<jimisrvrox> seeing what other ubuntu chans are around that the forums are suggesting..and i really dont care to do chan listing in irc its rather slow :)
<jimisrvrox> I know you suggested #ubuntu but many times the chan is rather dead...any other chans that are good?
<persia> #ubuntu dead?  The usual complaint is that it's overfull.
<persia> You might try #ubuntu-CC for your country code (e.g. #ubuntu-qa for Qatar).
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-02-15
<sixtyby3> Hi all
<sixtyby3> Whoever is the admin here needs to change the link for the schedule. The https link seems to be broken. The http version works just fine.
<pleia2> yeah, is.gd isn't hugely reliable (sometimes neither of them work)
<pleia2> we should probably switch to something better
<zkriesse> tiny.url
<pleia2> yeah, there are a lot of services to choose from
<sixtyby3> Or a direct link. :) I think that's good enough.
<pleia2> the direct link is too long when we change the topic for sessions
<sixtyby3>  I think putting the http version seems to work.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Sessions in #ubuntu-classroom, chat and questions releated to sessions here || Upcoming Schedule in #ubuntu-classroom: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Preface questions with QUESTION:
<pleia2> ah, finally
<pleia2> netsplit is causing laggy chanserv
<pleia2> http works today, we switched to https when http stopped working for a few days ;)
<pleia2> just need to switch to something more reliable
<sixtyby3> Oh.
<sixtyby3> I think is.gd should change to not.gd
* holmes.freenode.net changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Sessions in #ubuntu-classroom, chat and questions releated to sessions here || Upcoming Schedule in #ubuntu-classroom: https://is.gd/8rtIi || Preface questions with QUESTION:
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-02-16
<vaibhav> which language is primarily used  for developing ubuntu?
<lithpr> wait- is the presentation here right now, or is it on ustream?
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-02-17
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<Disturbed1> hello
<fisch246> just to clarify... this is the room that the "UDW" event will be taking place in?
<pleia2> yep
<fisch246> k thanks
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-02-18
<b0o-awesome> 111111111x111111111 is?
<b0o-awesome> oh
<sebsebseb> hi
<jcastro> *tap tap*
<jcastro> this thing on?
<jcastro> 10 minutes until Q+A with Allison Randall, the Ubuntu Technical Architect!
<mikesanderson78> ?
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Current Session: Q and A with Allison Randall, Ubuntu Technical Architect - Instructors: wendar
<jcastro> welcome to our weekly Q+A sessions with engineering folks in Ubuntu
<jcastro> this week we  have Allison Randall, the Ubuntu Software Architect
<jcastro> as always, please post your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> wendar: ok, introduce yourself and take it away!
<wendar> greetings programs!
<wendar> I see interesting questions coming through
<jcastro> QUESTION:  What does being the Ubuntu Software architect mean?  What do you do?
<wendar> The technical architect is a new role for Ubuntu.
<wendar> I was brought in as a cross-hire from another open source project Parrot.
<wendar> I've been the Chief Architect there for 5 years.
<wendar> There are several pieces to a software architect role.
<wendar> A big one is being the person with the "overall" view.
<wendar> Most people focus on one piece of the distribution, the desktop, server, particular applications, etc.
<wendar> But, that means that sometimes things slip through the cracks because they're outside the core focus of all the little teams.
<wendar> Or, that things get missed because they involve 2 or more teams, who don't have good visibility into what the others are doing.
<wendar> Another aspect of an architect role is planning for the future.
<wendar> Not just "heads down" to the next release, but where do we need to be 2, 5, 10, 20 years from now.
<wendar> next question, jorge
<jcastro> Question: So what will Wayland mean for the future of Ubuntu. Could it help Wine with OpenGL based games?
<wendar> You've probably seen Mark's post on Ubuntu's intention to adopt Wayland in the future.
<wendar> In the short-term Wayland isn't quite ready, so we won't be using it in Natty, or even the "O" release.
<wendar> In the longer-term, Wayland has great potential.
<wendar> Wayland was designed with security as a central focus, so it makes more advanced sandboxing possible.
<wendar> It's lighter than X, because it's a more minimal subset of features.
<wendar> Performance improvements, especially on netbooks, etc are critical.
<wendar> On Wine/OpenGL, a lot depends on what those projects decide to do with Wayland.
<wendar> So, I can't predict, but I hope it solves some of the problems there.
<wendar> next
<jcastro> cheller> 	QUESTION: What is Ubuntu's plan/strategy for HPC in the coming years?
<wendar> great question :)
<wendar> I'll take a bit of a historical step back there first.
<wendar> It's intersting to watch how technology has grown over the decades, our phones today have as much power as a "supercomputer" several decades ago.
<wendar> So, in some sense HPC is a false categorization.
<wendar> And there's also some question whether monolithic "super computers" are the future of high-performance.
<wendar> Or, if we're approaching the limits (in terms of the laws of physics) on monolithic hardware, and so the future of high performance is actually cloud architectures.
<wendar> Our focus in Ubuntu is on two fronts:
<wendar> - Improving performance of the bare metal install
<wendar> That benefits all installs of ubuntu (whether monolithic or cloud)
<wendar> - Actively developing Ubuntu as both host and guest for cloud architectures
<wendar> With special focus on the ease of use in cloud architectures, which really *should be* as easy to administer as monolithic architectures (but currently are rather a pain to work with)
<wendar> next
<jcastro> kim0> QUESTION: Why do you think mobile OSs like iOS and Android are picking up developers and apps perhaps faster than most desktop OSs. What's Ubuntu's strategy to keep up
<wendar> That's something I've been thinking a lot about lately.
<wendar> There are several working theories on what attracts developers to a platform.
<wendar> One is to provide easy-to-use tools. That developers avoid pain, and so will flock to the easy path.
<wendar> That's partly true, and it's something we have immediate and long term plans to work on.
<wendar> Take a look at Quickly for a good example.
<wendar> We have some more changes coming for that in Natty that will make it much easier to get your Quickly applications distributed in the Software  Center.
<wendar> In the longer term, Ubuntu (and a whole bunch of other Linux-based environments) is looking at the toolchain in a deeper way.
<wendar> Not just for a patch here and there, but to really see the developer experience as a whole and remove the pain points.
<wendar> That's something I'm particularly interested in, having spent the past 10 years working toward an "easy" developer experience in Parrot.
<wendar> But, the "ease of development" is only part of the story.
<wendar> I don't know if you've used iOS or Android developer tools, but they're still a long way from "easy"
<wendar> An easy, well integrated, social developer experience is more along the lines of scratch.mit.edu
<wendar> So, there's another layer to look at, and that is "what motivates developers to target a platform even despite the pain"
<wendar> I could talk for an hour on that alone, but I'll summarize
<wendar> - Developers want people to use their software, so they'll go for a sympathetic audience
<wendar> Ubuntu has a large number of users, so it's growing to the point that it's  appealing for new app development
<wendar> - Developers want to feel connected with their users, so the new Ratings and Reviews feature in Natty is an important step forward
<wendar> (that feedback in iOS and Android is a big part of their success)
<wendar> - Developers want instant gratification
<wendar> It's a huge damper on motivation if you write a quick app in a weekend, and then have to wait 2 weeks (or worse, 6 months) before anyone sees it
<wendar> so, there's a good bit of work going on now to improve the developer experience with submissions, so they get apps up in days
<wendar> and with some good sandboxing for safety, we can get those days of review down to minutes
<wendar> I better say 'next'
<jcastro> om26er> 	QUESTION: which team are you part of?
<wendar> I'm on the Ubuntu Engineering team
<wendar> I'm a peer of Jason Warner (Desktop Manager), Robbie Williamson (Server Manager), Kate Stewart (Release Manager)
<wendar> And report to Rick Spencer (Ubuntu Engineering Director)
<wendar> next
<jcastro> mhall119> 	QUESTION: Since you brought it up, where do we need to be 2, 5, 10 and 20 years from now?
<wendar> Linux has traditionally played a little of a "catch up" role.
<wendar> Like, we're trying to implement features that other operating systems have already implemented.
<wendar> That seems a little odd, when you think about it.
<wendar> Free software is actually a very agile space.
<wendar> It has a very high pace of evolution.
<wendar> That is, having more than one way to do things is actually an advantage in pushing forward the state technology.
<wendar> We can rapidly try out 5 different ways to solve a problem, and then pick the best one and move on to the next generation.
<wendar> But, we aren't using that unique evolutionary advantage as well as we could.
<wendar> Linux shouldn't be following other OS's, we should be leading.
<wendar> That means deciding where we want technology to be 20 years from now, and actively making that reality happen.
<wendar> the 2, 5, and 10 years are all steps toward the future of technology
 * wendar debating whether to go into specifics
<wendar> better move on for time
<jcastro>  <subroot> 	QUESTION: why the ubuntu team dont make something "unique", not importing things from Windows and Mac OSx??
<wendar> (feel free to chat with me on freenode at any time, btw)
<wendar> Yes, exactly!
<wendar> So, I see Unity as a good example of this phenomenon.
<wendar> It's a bit of a change of pace in the desktop environment.
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<wendar> Not just "what should Linux be like", but "what should the computing experience be like".
<wendar> It's something unique to Ubuntu, and an evolutionary step forward.
<wendar> Not the highest evolved state (we've got decades ahead), but a great next step.
<wendar> next
<jcastro> om26er> 	QUESTION: for what I have seen there have been nothing done to boot performance work after 10.04 although the release notes of 10.10 claimed boot performance but I followed many blueprints closely and there was no work done on that side, are there any future plans on the boots speed.
<wendar> There's a standard statistical curve around performance improvements.
<wendar> The first set of improvements yield big gains for small effort.
<wendar> As you go on, you get smaller and smaller gains for greater effort.
<wendar> We assessed boot speed at the begining of the Natty cycle, and determined that although more gains were possible, they were relatively low impact.
<wendar> That is, the greatest slow downs now aren't the boot, but starting up services after the boot.
<wendar> I.e. what we need is more general performance fixes across the board.
<wendar> next
<jcastro>  <kim0> 	QUESTION: What's your view on where cloud computing is taking the world. Now that IaaS is almost nailed, is Platform as a Service what everyone actually wants
<jcastro> (one more after this)
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<wendar> briefly
<wendar> I'm pretty well convinced that future technology is going to be centered on distributed processing rather than monolithic processing.
<wendar> But, we haven't hit the even horizon yet.
<wendar> event horizon
<wendar> And cloud technology needs to be much easier to use before it can become truly universal.
<wendar> next
<jcastro> mhall119> 	QUESTION: How about getting developers of things like "Angry Birds" making their apps available on Ubuntu?
<jcastro> last one *chirp*
<wendar> I would love to have Angry Birds ported to Ubuntu.
<wendar> I'm one of the board members on the new Application Review Board.
<wendar> where we work on the "fast" process for lightweight apps like that to get into the Software Center
<wendar> If you know an app developer who's interested in making a lightweight app, put them in touch with us.
<wendar> end
<jcastro> (Like making Places for Unity!)
<jcastro> ok thanks everyone for participating but we are out of time
<jcastro> thanks allison! *clap* *clap*
<wendar> thanks all for the great questions
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/02/18/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<jcastro> hey alright, smoke if you got em
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-02-19
<raheel> can any one help me how to setup the maximum pages PER JOB using cups or lpadmin
<serfus> raheel, this is not a support channel, try at #ubuntu or rather at #cups
<jfi> raheel, try #ubuntu channel, #ubuntu-classroom is not for support
<raheel> ok thanks
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-02-20
<dve> if I create a file in a symlinked folder... is that folder created in the target only?
<dve> file*
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-02-14
<melvincv> hi all
<melvincv> what does the -C option in tar do?
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-02-15
<zilog_> c'Ã¨ qualcuno che parla italiano?
<Kerbero> no comprendo
<Kerbero> :(
<Kerbero> guess i should've pointed him to his country's channel
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-02-17
<ama2er> people i know this is kind of a basic question, but is it possible to use the % operator in a 'sh' script and not 'bash' because i keep getting the error '%' not found
<ama2er> thanks
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-02-18
<ceres> hi
<ceres> my name is Piter
<ceres> :>
<ceres> hello
<pleia2> ceres: this channel is for classes and there aren't any on the schedule at this time
<ceres> <pleia2> ok
#ubuntu-classroom 2013-02-11
<Dedunu> hi
<JoseeAntonioR> hey, Dedunu
<Dedunu> hi Josee
<Dedunu> I enjoyed your session lot
<JoseeAntonioR> thanks, Dedunu :)
#ubuntu-classroom 2013-02-12
<saqman2060_> this is awesome
#ubuntu-classroom 2013-02-13
<smartboyhw> Hmm the session isn't taking in
<JoseeAntonioR> We're having some tech problems over here, so please bare with us :)
<smartboyhw> Sorry
<smartboyhw> balloons2, tech problems here:P
<smartboyhw> The classbot isn't responding
* JoseeAntonioR changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || No Sessions Currently in Progress
* JoseeAntonioR changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: ChanServ has changed the topic to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Current Session: Your first ISO test - Instructors: smartboyhw
<JoseeAntonioR> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/02/13/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<smartboyhw> JoseeAntonioR, thanks!
<JoseeAntonioR> :)
<smartboyhw> Hello everyone!
<smartboyhw> I'm Howard Chan, an active QA contributor mainly doing ISO testing.
<smartboyhw> If you have been paying attention to our previous sessions, you would have learnt:
<smartboyhw> How to sign up in Launchpad and mailing list
<smartboyhw> How to use the wiki and IRC and toolset
<smartboyhw> How to write manual testcases and report bugs
<smartboyhw> How to use zsync, VirtualBox, KVM and testdrive
<smartboyhw> And finally, how to do laptop testing
<smartboyhw> So today we are doing ISO testing!
<smartboyhw> Why do we need to do ISO testing?
<smartboyhw> When a normal user goes and installs Ubuntu, there are many ways that he/she will install Ubuntu
<smartboyhw> For example, using a desktop image
<smartboyhw> Or using Wubi
<smartboyhw> Even maybe a netboot ISO
<smartboyhw> If a user meets a bug during installation, he will get unpleased or maybe even remove Ubuntu, which we absolutely don't want to
<smartboyhw> mote asked: ISO testing are mainly to test the installation process?
<smartboyhw> Well mote: You are correct!
<smartboyhw> We normally do ISO testing to make sure they are bug-free (at least critical-bug-free) and that they can install it
<smartboyhw> That's one of the main testing roles we do
<smartboyhw> So what do you need ?
<smartboyhw> 1. A Launchpad account. It shouldn't be difficult if you have been following balloons2's sessions
<smartboyhw> *session
<JoseeAntonioR> mote asked:  Are testing in WM, not insuffient, as many problems are due to hardware setup?
<smartboyhw> mote, I can't really understand the question.....
<smartboyhw> But if mote is asking about VMs are not good enough
<smartboyhw> Then yes!
<smartboyhw> For example, if we want to test UEFI bootloaders it would be difficult to do so in a VM.
<smartboyhw> So this is our second requirement for doing ISO tests: A real machine (spare one, don't use your main one) or a VM
<smartboyhw> You can have multiple choices
<smartboyhw> For example Oracle VM VirtualBox, VMware Player, Testdrive or KVm
<JoseeAntonioR> nearst asked: can we use this iso test for example when i backup my ubuntu with remastersys?
<smartboyhw> nearst, the ISO test must go through an ISO (image) installation
<smartboyhw> So if the backup is just simply an backup then no
 * smartboyhw has never used remastersys before
<JoseeAntonioR> plustwo asked: if using a VM for ISO testing, would the results be close enough to testing using physical h/w?
<smartboyhw> plustwo: Nice one
<smartboyhw> Answer: Not quite
<smartboyhw> As I have said before, it can be completely different
<smartboyhw> For example, you can't really do wireless connection in  a VM
<smartboyhw> But when you can't connect to the network in a real machine using wireless, that is a problem
<JoseeAntonioR> GridCube asked: Which tests are critical on alpha, beta, and final release tests?
<smartboyhw> GridCube, basically everything
<smartboyhw> We need to make sure all the tests can pass on release
<smartboyhw> GridCube, for example
<smartboyhw> Kubuntu can't release their 13.04 Alpha 1 amd64+mac images
<smartboyhw> Since the tests aren't met
<smartboyhw> Especially when final release all tests must be a passed one
<smartboyhw> In Alpha releases we normally use Virtual machines
<smartboyhw> In beta and especially in final releases though we use real machines to do testing
<smartboyhw> So, any questions about the requirements?
<smartboyhw> If not let's move on.
<smartboyhw> Now, if you have read the wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Activities/Classroom/Section3
<smartboyhw> (which is included in the classroom blog post
<smartboyhw> You should have downloaded an ISO.
<smartboyhw> I myself will test a Ubuntu 12.04.2 Desktop amd64 image today
<smartboyhw> Alongside you guys:)
<JoseeAntonioR> plustwo asked: can one select which part of the ISO testing to do and send the test results back to you guys?
<smartboyhw> plustwo, certainly!
<smartboyhw> That is exactly what I want to talk about later
<smartboyhw> The ISO tracker
<smartboyhw> But for the first part of the question: You can freely choose whatever flavour you want
<smartboyhw> For example, Ubuntu 12.04.2 Alternate amd64
<smartboyhw> Or Ubuntu Studio 12.04.2 DVD i386
<smartboyhw> Or Kubuntu Desktop 13.04 Alpha 2 amd64
<JoseeAntonioR> nearst asked: if im setup vmware with usb wireless connect to vm, is it pass for requirement?
<smartboyhw> nearst: Hmm
<smartboyhw> The problem is that even though you have done that
<smartboyhw> It still doesn't really emulate the real hardware environment
<smartboyhw> Sure that is also OK. It is just that it isn't good enough
<smartboyhw> Enough questions? We need to move on:P
<smartboyhw> Now if you haven't downloaded an ISO please download one at cdimage.ubuntu.com
<balloons2> it would help test the installer, and usb wireless may be used, but as smartboyhw said, if possible real hw is preferred. its very much a valid testpoint though and useful to have
<smartboyhw> That's the point of using real h/w
<smartboyhw> Of course if you want to test the same ISO as mine
<smartboyhw> Download it from http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/precise/daily-live/current
<balloons2> I actually think the usb wireless in a vm is kind of slick ;-)
<smartboyhw> Yes 1
<smartboyhw> * Yes !
<smartboyhw> Now let's drop in into the ISO QA Tracker!!!!
<smartboyhw> Go to iso.qa.ubuntu.com
<smartboyhw> You should see a "Log in" button on the left-hand side
<smartboyhw> Click on it, enter your Launchpad e-mail address and password
<smartboyhw> Then click "Log in again"
<smartboyhw> You should see a page about what credentials would you like to share
<smartboyhw> Just click "Yes, sign me in"
<smartboyhw> After login, you should see your launchpad nick on the top-right hand corner
<smartboyhw> Raring Alpha 2 and Precise 12.04.2 is going to be released tomorrow (seriously) so we need to set these images as priority
<smartboyhw> We shall ignore Raring Alpha 2 since only Kubuntu is going to have it, other flavours don't
<smartboyhw> So let
<smartboyhw> us click on "Precise 12.04.2"!
<smartboyhw> In this page you can see all the ISO images available for testing, the number of testcases done and also the number of bugs....
<smartboyhw> Since I downloaded a Ubuntu Desktop image, I shall select "Ubuntu Desktop amd64"
 * balloons2 notes if you have a different iso downloaded you can still follow along without worry
<smartboyhw> Then you shall see the testcases available for you to test:)
<smartboyhw> If you don't want to follow me no worries
<smartboyhw> Plenty of ISOs for you to choose from (LOL)
<smartboyhw> Now I'm going to do "Install (entire disk)" since I'm going to use VirtualBox
<smartboyhw> To start with:)
<smartboyhw> Click on the testcase you want to help test
<smartboyhw> And in the testcase page click on testcase
<smartboyhw> You might wonder why there is only a link to testcases.qa.ubuntu.com instead of a full testcase listed here for convenience
<smartboyhw> Truth be told: It isn't available for Precise only
<smartboyhw> If you go click on the Raring testcases you shall see full beautifully-written testcases, written by the testcase admins team
<smartboyhw> phillw should have taught you how to write one:)
<smartboyhw> So now: It is time to start installing the image!
<smartboyhw> So first of all I'm setting up my VirtualBox VM
<smartboyhw> Launch VirtualBox (If you haven't installed it, type "sudo apt-get install virtualbox virtualbox-dkms"
<smartboyhw> Select "New"
<smartboyhw> Click "Next"
<smartboyhw> Type whatever the name you want (it doesn't matter)
<smartboyhw> For me I will be using this name:
<smartboyhw> "Ubuntu 12.04.2 LTS 20130211 64-bit"
<smartboyhw> Make sure in "OS Type" the Operating System is "Linux" and the version is "Ubuntu" or "Ubuntu (64 bit)"
<smartboyhw> Select a suitable memory size
<smartboyhw> You don't want too much (unless you have a machine with 1TB ram:P)
<smartboyhw> Click "Next" (and sorry for missing it between the operating system and the memory part)
<smartboyhw> Tick "Start-up Disk" and choose "Create new hard disk"
<smartboyhw> Click "Next" again and the "virtual disk creation wizard" shall appear
<smartboyhw> For this test I will choose "VDI (VirtualBox Disk Image)
<smartboyhw> Click "Next"
<smartboyhw> You can either choose "dynamically allocated" or "fixed size".
<smartboyhw> However if you are planning to have a big Virtual disk use "dynamically allocated"
<smartboyhw> Click "Next"
<smartboyhw> Leave the file location by default
<smartboyhw> Select the disk size. Make sure it is at least 6 GB.
<smartboyhw> The default (8 GB) should be good enough anyway
<smartboyhw> Click "Next"
<smartboyhw> Make sure nothing is wrong, then select "Create"
<smartboyhw> Same screen again for the VM.
<smartboyhw> Click "create" and you have successfully created a VirtualBox VM!
<smartboyhw> Click "start" (don't worry about your ISO image not yet used, it is coming!)
<smartboyhw> You might have some messages popping out, so just click "OK" for these.
<smartboyhw> You shall see a "First run Wizard" if you hadn't chose an ISO image for the VM.
<smartboyhw> Click "next"
<smartboyhw> Select the ISO you downloaded
<smartboyhw> Click "Next" again
<smartboyhw> Click "start"
<smartboyhw> We are now booting the image!!!!!
<smartboyhw> Now listen: You might have problems using VirtualBox for this image because I delibrately selected one image that has a bug so you can see how to submit a failed result....
<smartboyhw> You should have a blank screen with a orange cursor
<smartboyhw> You might ask: Are you kidding me?
<smartboyhw> no
<smartboyhw> For those of you who are using other hardware, use these prodecures to test
<smartboyhw> Make sure you see a screen that has two buttons: "Try Ubuntu" and "Install Ubuntu"
<smartboyhw> Click on "Install Ubuntu"
<smartboyhw> Make sure all three requirements (or two) listed on the page are with a green tick!
<smartboyhw> You can choose whether to tick "Download updates while installing" and/or "Install this third-party software'
<smartboyhw> Click "Continue"
<smartboyhw> For "Installation type" click "Erase disk and Install Ubuntu"
<smartboyhw> Again click "continue"
<smartboyhw> Make sure that the full drive space is allocated, the drive space is correct and such.
<smartboyhw> Click on "Install now"!
<smartboyhw> You should then (if you have internet connection) put into a screen where your timezone is selected
<smartboyhw> Check that it is correct
<smartboyhw> If it is, click "Continue"
<smartboyhw> If it isn't, select the correct timezone and then continue
<smartboyhw> After that you should land on a "Keyboard Layout" page.
<smartboyhw> Select the correct Keyboard Layout, test it by typing into the test area, then click "Continue"
<smartboyhw> In the screen "Who are you?" you should input your real name, your computer name, your username, your password (twice) and select whether you want to login automatically or needing a password to log in
<smartboyhw> If you need a password to log in, you can also choose to encrypt your home partition
<smartboyhw> Then click "Continue"
<smartboyhw> The slides should be playing now and change automatically. Make sure you can navigate through slides via clicking on the arrows
<smartboyhw> Don't forget: If you have any question, use the QUESTION: tag to ask it in #ubuntu-classroom-chat !
<smartboyhw> The installation will take a while, so relax for a bit
<smartboyhw> If you have any bugs while installing, report them!
<smartboyhw> Press Ctrl+Alt+F1 to launch terminal
<smartboyhw> then type "apport-bug ubiquity" to report a bug against the installer
<smartboyhw> Actually
<smartboyhw> if you have problems with the ISO image, type "ubuntu-bug syslinux"
<JoseeAntonioR> GridCub asked: apport-bug its the same as ubuntu-bug?
<smartboyhw> GridCube, YES
<smartboyhw> apport-bug = ubuntu-bug
<smartboyhw> I used apport-bug more, but that's just your personal preference
<smartboyhw> If you have problems with graphics, use ubuntu-bug xorg
<smartboyhw> For VirtualBox users who can't install: Follow me!
<JoseeAntonioR> plustwo asked: if bugs are not reported like today and the release happens tomorrow, will the ISO tests results still be valid?
<smartboyhw> plustwo, frankly: Yes.
<smartboyhw> There would be no way to save the release
<smartboyhw> Also guys: The results you handed in might be invalid after the images went through a respin
<smartboyhw> VirtualBox users: At that page's "Results" box
<smartboyhw> Click on "failed"
<smartboyhw> In critical bugs type 1122072
<smartboyhw> Then click "Submit result"
<smartboyhw> Has anyone finished the test and it shows "Installation completed"?
<smartboyhw> If yes, click on "Restart now"
<smartboyhw> Remove the disk (if you used a real one), close the tray (if your CD driver is a tray) and press "Enter"
<smartboyhw> It should auto reboot
<smartboyhw> Login and that's it!
<smartboyhw> Don't hand in a pass result yet, instead, we need to do vertification
<smartboyhw> First of all, open a terminal, and type "arch"
<smartboyhw> It should show the correct architecture of the ISO you installed.
<smartboyhw> Then type "lsb_release -a"
<smartboyhw> The DIstributor ID should be Ubuntu
<smartboyhw> Description should be Ubuntu 12.04.2
<smartboyhw> Release should be 12.04
<smartboyhw> Codename should be precise
<smartboyhw> Then try "sudo apt-get update" and make sure it doesn't throw any errors.
<smartboyhw> Then you can really submit a pass result!
<smartboyhw> In the "results" block of the testcase page select "passed"
<smartboyhw> However if you got any bugs that you found during installation but doesn't block it, type the bug number in the "bugs" section
<JoseeAntonioR> GridCube asked: What if you finished a test, and it took a long time to complete, say you used a real hw which is slow, and you find a bug, but when you go to report it the iso was already rolled away for a different bug. can you still report the found bug against the new release?
<smartboyhw> GridCube, hmm. We need to test it again. However if that bug isn't related to the bug you found, it probably still exists
<smartboyhw> Make sure you test it again though.
<smartboyhw> Any more questions?
<phillw> GridCube: during daily testing, you get 24 hours to test an image, at milestone stages, e.g. beta 1. the re-spins are put on hold except for critical errors.
<phillw> this can be a little frustrating for tester, but the -release team do keep an etherpad going, so you can see what is planned to happen.
<phillw> if in doubt, ask on #ubuntu-quality and we can let you know what is planned in terms of re-spins when we are that stage
<phillw> ..
<JoseeAntonioR> plustwo asked: QUESTION: is there a timeframe or period of doing the test perhaps or they are done at any time?
<smartboyhw> plustwo, for the dailies we don't have any limits
<smartboyhw> However for the official releases we need to do it before release
<smartboyhw> Normally an e-mail goes out inviting everyone to test
<smartboyhw> and the deadline for test
<smartboyhw> is the release day
<smartboyhw> Normally a Thursday
<smartboyhw> And more normally, before 16:00 UTC
<JoseeAntonioR> GridCube asked: Is there a list of known bugs we should be on the watch off while testing an iso?
<smartboyhw> GridCube, when you are in a testcase you should see a box called "Bugs"
<smartboyhw> In it there is a section called "Bugs to look for"
<smartboyhw> In there it contains the bugs you need to watch *out*
<smartboyhw> Since the session was about to be an end, I need to do some advertisement
<smartboyhw> Tomorrow is 12.04.2 release day and Kubuntu 13.04 Alpha 2 release day (and strangely, Valentine's day)
<smartboyhw> So then, please help test the images!!!!
<smartboyhw> BTW, if you are really specially loving one of the images and want to know when new images are available, go into that ISO's page and click "subscribe"
<smartboyhw> An e-mail notification will be sent to you each time the build renews
<JoseeAntonioR> plustwo asked: on valentine's day? :)
<smartboyhw> plustwo, yes :P
<smartboyhw> Tomorrow @ 14:00-15:00 UTC @ #ubuntu-quality balloons2 (Nicholas Skaggs) and I will be at our QA Team IRC channel to help you submit testcase results
<smartboyhw> No need to worry eh?
<smartboyhw> and also Phill Whiteside (phillw) will be there too:)
<smartboyhw> Friendly reminder:
<smartboyhw> Lubuntu will not have any LTS releases, so no 12.04.2 testing for them (blame phillw for that, they said they don't have enough HR while they actually has)
<smartboyhw> And only Kubuntu will have a 13.04 Alpha 2 release
<smartboyhw> Please come today and tomorrow to get the images tested and released!
<smartboyhw> WE NEED YOUR SUPPORT!
<smartboyhw> balloons2, phillw any *last words* to say!?
<balloons2> I think not. thanks for attending everyone, and for helping test and contribute to ubuntu
<smartboyhw> Thank you for listening and wish you happy time testing
<smartboyhw> a happy Chinese New Year of the Snake
<smartboyhw> a happy 12.04.2 release day
<smartboyhw> and a romantic Valentine's day!!
<smartboyhw> :)
* JoseeAntonioR changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || No Sessions Currently in Progress
<smartboyhw> Thx JoseeAntonioR :)
<smartboyhw> Thx phillw
<smartboyhw> Thx balloons2
<smartboyhw> Thx GridCube
<smartboyhw> Thx nearst
<JoseeAntonioR> no prob, I'm happy we got it sorted out before I got desperate and started running in circles
<smartboyhw> Thx plustwo
<smartboyhw> JoseeAntonioR, ;(
<smartboyhw> Oops wrong
<smartboyhw> JoseeAntonioR, ;)
<saqman2060> is the iso class session today?
<JoseeAntonioR> saqman2060: it's already over, logs here: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/02/13/%23ubuntu-classroom.html#t13:11
<saqman2060> oh boy :(
<saqman2060> thanks for the link. Was happing problems connecting JoseeAntonioR
<JoseeAntonioR> saqman2060: no worries
<saqman2060> JoseeAntonioR, when is the next class session and what time if you don't mind me asking?
<JoseeAntonioR> saqman2060: http://is.gd/8rtIi has the schedule
<saqman2060> thanks
<saqman2060> to introduce myself. my name is istimsak abdulbasir and i have been an ubuntu iso tester since 11.04. Been very pleased of my experience using ubuntu and hope to contribute some of my own valuable efforts to the project.
<Mawaheb> Hello everyone , i missed the iso testing session today :( is there is a log for it ?
<Mawaheb> anyone ?
<Mawaheb> balloons, i missed the iso testing session today :( is there is a log for it ?
<balloons> Mawaheb, sorry
<balloons> yes, indeed there is
<balloons> actually I'll just send a reminder and update the classroom page
<IdleOne> !logs
<ClassBot> Logs for all classroom sessions that take place in #ubuntu-classroom can be found on http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/
<Mawaheb> okay ! thanks !
<IdleOne> Mawaheb: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/02/13/%23ubuntu-classroom.html#t13:11
<Mawaheb> thanks IdleOne
<IdleOne> welcome
<balloons> Mawaheb, here's the logs for everything included inline with the sessions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Activities/Classroom
<Mawaheb> Thanks alot balloons !
#ubuntu-classroom 2015-02-14
<CodeRed> Hi
