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CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
God not existing is hardly a new revelation in human thought. You don't need God. All the tools you need are here on earth. People are part of the universe and people care about you, you just have to find them.
You are under great stress and my family has gone through a lot too. My dad died of cancer and left my mom with four kids aged 2 to 12. Then she married a guy molested two of us when I was 6. Then she married a man who died of cancer.
For over a decade I was constantly depressed and constantly thought about killing myself. I know how you are feeling and all I can say is this is your life's challenge, just like many people past and present. I've met so many people who were abused, neglected and addicted and what we all share is that we are struggling with the greatest burdon of our lives, pushing ourselves to the absolute limit of one person can take.
You have to reach way deep down inside you and find the energy to push yourself beyond your limits. Keep going until your body gives out.
Just keep going. Don't stop.
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I don't understand why you have to give one up. If you concede that constraints are what give our choices weight, or conversely, that limitless beings do not have to choose at all, then an omnipotent Christian God would give us choice, free will, and the suffering that comes with constraints. I mean, imagine what taking away our suffering actually means. What would be left? If you rob us of grief, how would we value those that we lose? If you remove our pining over choices, how would our choices matter? If you remove adversity, how would we overcome?
If there is a God, then he would be the source of meaning, given that we exist. And yes, choices are what gives existence purpose. Our choices are what define us, in just about every way. What we choose to do, or to not do, what we choose to say, and to not say. The sum of that is us, and if we assume moral realism, our goodness or badness.
Considering all of this, I don't really know what you mean by "is it worth it". What is the alternative?
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94k9lf
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CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
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joshingkatie
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e3mgihq
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e3m6ys1
| 2
| 1
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CMV: Humans will most likely never go extinct
The idea that humanity is doomed to extinction seems to be conventional wisdom at this point, and many believe our end is already right around the corner. However, that seems incredibly unlikely to ever happen. Let's go through some of the potential ways in which we might join the dinosaurs:
Asteroid impacts seem to be the prime suspect in popular belief. However, large impactors are much rarer in the inner solar system that one might think; after all, the last one to cause a mass extinction hit 65 million years ago. Humans will likely be able to divert such objects within one or two centuries at most; the chances that a huge comet or asteroid would hit us by then are extremely small.
Supernova and gamma ray bursts directed at Earth are much harder to protect a planet against than asteroids. However, supernovae are simply a non-issue for the near future; the closest candidate is over 150 light years away (enough to temporarily reduce the ozone layer, not to eradicate all life on Earth), and the star's trajectory in relation to our own will likely carry it much further away by the time it collapse. GRBs are less predictable, as they can hit from greater distances, but they seem to be even more rare as the jets have to be oriented towards our solar system in order to cause damage (only a few are estimated to hit us every billion years). Like supernovae, they aren't world-ending events unless one occurs in relative proximity to us, but they are still likely a greater threat than asteroids.
Supervolcanic eruptions are more frequent, but not quite powerful enough to cause a major extinction event. In fact, prehistoric humans survived one of these 74 000 years ago, when we were fewer than a million and barely had any technology beyond the mastery of fire. We can say for certain that Yellowstone will not be the end of us. However, flood basalt eruptions appear to be the main cause of major extinction events on earth, and were almost certainly the cause of the Great Dying at the end of the Permian. Surely one would kill us all, right? Volcanic eruptions are much more predictable than other natural phenomenons. If billions of cubic meters of magma were accumulating under the Earth's crust, we would know about it. Furthermore, the formation of large igneous provinces is a process that seems to take tens of thousands of years. This is just far too long to cause the extinction of a species with access to advanced technology.
What about nukes? Even an all-out nuclear war would likely leave the Southern Hemisphere in a bad shape (mostly from famine and the collapse of the global economy), but in a position to rebuild civilization. There may be some extinctions, but no Fallout-like post apocalypse and certainly no change to Earth's orbit.
Diseases, especially biological weapons, stand perhaps the best chance of killing us all. But even that is assuming said disease can resist all treatment, spread to every human and have a >99% fatality or sterility rate. Very few diseases meet even one of these criteria.
Climate change is an often quoted example, and not a bad one at that. Let me be clear, the science is clear on this: man-made climate change is a fact. However, while the worst-case scenario (a serious possibility at this point) is a mass extinction and societal collapse, most scientists agree that a runaway greenhouse effect analogous to the one on Venus, which would render Earth uninhabitable, cannot be caused by human activity. In fact, the aforementioned flood basalt eruptions caused even greater rises in global temperature with catastrophic, but not quite world-ending results.
AI uprisings, self-replicating nanites, alien invasions and other more hypothetical scenarios might be more or less likely to destroy us all that we think, but it's too early to speculate on those.
As for events in the very far future, such as the end of the carbon cycle, the cooling of Earth's core or the Sun becoming a red giant, we have no idea what humankind will be capable of in billions of years. The same goes for the theorized heat death of the universe in trillions of years.
Most importantly. any humanity-ending event would have to happen in the next few centuries. The moment we have self-sufficient colonies on other planets, driving us to extinction goes from difficult to practically impossible.
Perhaps I am missing something, overestimating our ability to adapt or conversely underestimating the destructive potential of one or more of these disasters. What do you think?
EDIT : "Humanity" here is defined rather broadly as Homo Sapiens and all its potential descendants. If, in the future, a post-human species diverged from our own either through natural evolution or artificial means, they would still be a part of humanity under this definition.
EDIT 2 : While I still maintain that the survival of humanity is overwhelmingly likely in the foreseeable future, there is currently no reason to assume we will be able to alter the laws of physics and avoid end-of-the-universe scenarios such as the Big Freeze (heat death) or Big Rip. I've awarded two deltas for the comments pointing out my mistake, so I'll consider discussion on that particular aspect closed for now. I'm still willing to change my view on every other aspect of my position.
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>we have no idea what humankind will be capable of in billions of years
This alone rebuts your title. We don't know what is possible with regards to those problems (though there a lot of things we can be pretty certain won't work). And it's not just an inspirational "humans are capable of unimaginable things" - regardless of what humans do, it's also dependent on how life-friendly the undiscovered laws of physics are. Even if humans were the undisputed platonic ideal of intelligent life, we could happen to live in a universe that does not allow any complex arrangement of matter/information to exist indefinitely.
The most you can say is that we don't know that humans will go extinct. But you can't assess the likelihood of human existing forever when it's dependent on completely unknown laws of physics being friendly to life.
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Its not conventional wisdom at all. I studied biology for my undergrad under some of the most respected scientists in north america and not one ever expressed the belief that humans are going extinct. Even my sustainability and enviro sci profs didnt say that. Stop watching mainstream news, its brain cancer (neuroblastoma)
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e2n503
|
CMV: Humans will most likely never go extinct
|
The idea that humanity is doomed to extinction seems to be conventional wisdom at this point, and many believe our end is already right around the corner. However, that seems incredibly unlikely to ever happen. Let's go through some of the potential ways in which we might join the dinosaurs:
Asteroid impacts seem to be the prime suspect in popular belief. However, large impactors are much rarer in the inner solar system that one might think; after all, the last one to cause a mass extinction hit 65 million years ago. Humans will likely be able to divert such objects within one or two centuries at most; the chances that a huge comet or asteroid would hit us by then are extremely small.
Supernova and gamma ray bursts directed at Earth are much harder to protect a planet against than asteroids. However, supernovae are simply a non-issue for the near future; the closest candidate is over 150 light years away (enough to temporarily reduce the ozone layer, not to eradicate all life on Earth), and the star's trajectory in relation to our own will likely carry it much further away by the time it collapse. GRBs are less predictable, as they can hit from greater distances, but they seem to be even more rare as the jets have to be oriented towards our solar system in order to cause damage (only a few are estimated to hit us every billion years). Like supernovae, they aren't world-ending events unless one occurs in relative proximity to us, but they are still likely a greater threat than asteroids.
Supervolcanic eruptions are more frequent, but not quite powerful enough to cause a major extinction event. In fact, prehistoric humans survived one of these 74 000 years ago, when we were fewer than a million and barely had any technology beyond the mastery of fire. We can say for certain that Yellowstone will not be the end of us. However, flood basalt eruptions appear to be the main cause of major extinction events on earth, and were almost certainly the cause of the Great Dying at the end of the Permian. Surely one would kill us all, right? Volcanic eruptions are much more predictable than other natural phenomenons. If billions of cubic meters of magma were accumulating under the Earth's crust, we would know about it. Furthermore, the formation of large igneous provinces is a process that seems to take tens of thousands of years. This is just far too long to cause the extinction of a species with access to advanced technology.
What about nukes? Even an all-out nuclear war would likely leave the Southern Hemisphere in a bad shape (mostly from famine and the collapse of the global economy), but in a position to rebuild civilization. There may be some extinctions, but no Fallout-like post apocalypse and certainly no change to Earth's orbit.
Diseases, especially biological weapons, stand perhaps the best chance of killing us all. But even that is assuming said disease can resist all treatment, spread to every human and have a >99% fatality or sterility rate. Very few diseases meet even one of these criteria.
Climate change is an often quoted example, and not a bad one at that. Let me be clear, the science is clear on this: man-made climate change is a fact. However, while the worst-case scenario (a serious possibility at this point) is a mass extinction and societal collapse, most scientists agree that a runaway greenhouse effect analogous to the one on Venus, which would render Earth uninhabitable, cannot be caused by human activity. In fact, the aforementioned flood basalt eruptions caused even greater rises in global temperature with catastrophic, but not quite world-ending results.
AI uprisings, self-replicating nanites, alien invasions and other more hypothetical scenarios might be more or less likely to destroy us all that we think, but it's too early to speculate on those.
As for events in the very far future, such as the end of the carbon cycle, the cooling of Earth's core or the Sun becoming a red giant, we have no idea what humankind will be capable of in billions of years. The same goes for the theorized heat death of the universe in trillions of years.
Most importantly. any humanity-ending event would have to happen in the next few centuries. The moment we have self-sufficient colonies on other planets, driving us to extinction goes from difficult to practically impossible.
Perhaps I am missing something, overestimating our ability to adapt or conversely underestimating the destructive potential of one or more of these disasters. What do you think?
EDIT : "Humanity" here is defined rather broadly as Homo Sapiens and all its potential descendants. If, in the future, a post-human species diverged from our own either through natural evolution or artificial means, they would still be a part of humanity under this definition.
EDIT 2 : While I still maintain that the survival of humanity is overwhelmingly likely in the foreseeable future, there is currently no reason to assume we will be able to alter the laws of physics and avoid end-of-the-universe scenarios such as the Big Freeze (heat death) or Big Rip. I've awarded two deltas for the comments pointing out my mistake, so I'll consider discussion on that particular aspect closed for now. I'm still willing to change my view on every other aspect of my position.
| 1,574,890,077
|
D3v1ous
|
f8wkhuu
|
f8whfht
| 7
| 3
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
I think a short and sweet answer might be nice throughout all your suffering.
I heard this on the TV show Young Sheldon
A scientist once said, “If we don’t know if god exists or not, what is the harm in being optimistic. If there is a god, great. If there isn’t, you aren’t in any worse of a position for at least having faith”
|
Problems and pain aren’t evidence there is no God. How much problems and pain might God have prevented and we don’t know it?
I have adult children. I don’t solve all their problems for them. If I did, I wouldn’t be doing them any *real* favors. If I’m wise enough to know that, surely God is far more wise and knows what’s too much.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3mrssp
|
e3lwfwp
| 2
| 1
|
CMV: America is woefully unprepared for a major disaster
Examples include an invasion by a foreign country, civil war, nuclear attack, running out of fossil fuels, EMP blast, severe worldwide drought, asteroid strike or a massive volcanic eruption like the entirety of Yellowstone national park erupting.
Surviving the event itself will be easier than surviving the days, weeks, months and years afterward.
If all things electric shutdown because of an EMP blast including semi trucks, there goes 99% of the food supply for major cities. If the EMP goes off in the winter, many northern cities will see millions of people freeze to death in the cold. So, now everyone rushes to the supermarket to raid for food and those are scenes of major bloodbath and murders. Even if you have food and water storage, you may be dozens of miles away from land that can produce food through fishing, hunting or farming in the long term and that journey into the countryside may be more risky than what it is worth
At this point, horse drawn carriages will become a necessity and we don't have too much of those right now.
Meanwhile, the Amish are not as severely effected by this disaster as they are MUCH more self reliant than the average American. It might be a great idea for the federal government to consult with the Amish on an American disaster plan.
The beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic we saw people fist fighting over toilet paper... imagine when people start fighting over food...
|
> If all things electric shutdown because of an EMP blast including semi trucks, there goes 99% of the food supply for major cities.
The actual long-term impacts of an EMP are, at best, somewhat unclear. It seems likely that many vehicles would survive an EMP given they’re mostly covered in metal and not connected to a power grid to get induced current from the grid.
Actual testing with EMP simulators corroborates this assumption—most modern computer-controlled cars and trucks do not suffer permanent damage when subjected to simulated EMPs. Most have no effects at all, other need to be power cycled and reset to clear minor issues. It’s highly likely that trucks would continue to operate.
A bigger concern would probably be ports and food processing factories. Unloading cargo would be pretty impractical if the cranes and computer systems that are used to unload ships were not functioning. Factories would very likely have substantial damage.
It’s highly likely that most disconnected, portable devices would continue to function after an EMP because they don’t have the sort of miles-long power lines that are most vulnerable to an EMP. That includes cars, cell phones, laptops (that aren’t plugged in), etc.
> If the EMP goes off in the winter, many northern cities will see millions of people freeze to death in the cold.
Possibly, though that’s by no means certain given that they get most of their heat from natural gas rather than electric heating, and build buildings a to be more insulted in the first place.
> So, now everyone rushes to the supermarket to raid for food and those are scenes of major bloodbath and murders.
This is a frequent trope in urban myths, but there’s not really a lot of support for this idea in reality. Generally speaking people tend to get a lot more cooperative and helpful after disasters, not more brutal and dangerous.
> Even if you have food and water storage, you may be dozens of miles away from land that can produce food through fishing, hunting or farming in the long term and that journey into the countryside may be more risky than what it is worth
OTOH, cities can pretty drastically reduce water usage in an emergency and it’s likely that water service could be restored pretty quickly since water systems are mostly gravity-fed using relatively few pumps that would have a high priority for repairs or replacement.
Proximity to land that could be used for farming would be pretty irrelevant—food transport would resume much faster than crops could be planted and harvested anyway.
> The beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic we saw people fist fighting over toilet paper
Which was certainly not the norm throughout the pandemic or lockdowns. Most people never saw a fist fight over toilet paper despite widespread shortages.
|
The Amish are like 300k people mostly in or around 3 states.
A nuclear attack could wipe most of them out. I'm not sure in what sense they are "prepared" unless being relatively oblivious to the outside world is "prepared".
Granted, probably nobody would bother nuking the Amish. However, the Amish also would be complete pushovers that likely wouldn't exist without being situated in a powerful first world country protecting them.
America is certainly among the least well ordered of first world countries and has severe political problems. However, calling it woefully unprepared relative to the Amish is kind of absurd.
Major disasters are also often something you can't be prepared for aside from having active institutions and technologies anticipating them. The Amish basically don't have this. America does, even if they're janky and corrupt such as they are.
|
mvnetg
|
CMV: America is woefully unprepared for a major disaster
|
Examples include an invasion by a foreign country, civil war, nuclear attack, running out of fossil fuels, EMP blast, severe worldwide drought, asteroid strike or a massive volcanic eruption like the entirety of Yellowstone national park erupting.
Surviving the event itself will be easier than surviving the days, weeks, months and years afterward.
If all things electric shutdown because of an EMP blast including semi trucks, there goes 99% of the food supply for major cities. If the EMP goes off in the winter, many northern cities will see millions of people freeze to death in the cold. So, now everyone rushes to the supermarket to raid for food and those are scenes of major bloodbath and murders. Even if you have food and water storage, you may be dozens of miles away from land that can produce food through fishing, hunting or farming in the long term and that journey into the countryside may be more risky than what it is worth
At this point, horse drawn carriages will become a necessity and we don't have too much of those right now.
Meanwhile, the Amish are not as severely effected by this disaster as they are MUCH more self reliant than the average American. It might be a great idea for the federal government to consult with the Amish on an American disaster plan.
The beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic we saw people fist fighting over toilet paper... imagine when people start fighting over food...
| 1,619,033,425
|
overhardeggs
|
gvdeixr
|
gvczifp
| 1
| 0
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
Not sure if this will reach you. I'm in a similar position in life, physically disabled, unable to work, poor, short life span. I dont have a family to care for though, thank god.
I do not believe in god, but I am studying a religion because I never had any faith growing up and I was curious.
In the bahai faith I was told that god doesn't have a grand plan for individual people, he doesn't intervene in the material world, otherwise what would be the point of free will?
I really respect that viewpoint, and through that perspective it seems that perhaps the people that are telling you about gods great plan are misguided and maybe don't actually know the nuances of how god interacts with the universe.
Personally I dont believe in god because theres no need to. It seems that most religions say that if youre a good person you have a successful afterlife anyway. So why bother bending over backwards to adhere strictly to gods word. Might be best to just live your life and try to be good, and if there is an afterlife, youre all set.
But your specific statement that human suffering is proof there is no god, is not a viable argument. For most religions teach that god does not force his will in the material world.
|
Something doesn't come from nothing, a series of events leads to SOMETHING. Talk to a scientist about their lack of knowledge or the inability to explain something and they'll tell you that it's ok, that is the natural progression of science, it's OK TO NOT UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING and we don't need to concoct wild fantasies of beings that are "all powerful" to explain those things. No, what we do is say, "ok I don't understand that, I'm going to develop a hypothesis and test it based on some ideas I have that could answer it", most of the time it doesn't work and it leads to more questions, but that is OK. Humanity has existed by for a microfraction of the universe's existence, we aren't going to know everything in a few hundred or thousand years, we may very well eradicate ourselves before even coming close to learning very complex things.
The basis for developing religion is control and the inability accept that we can't control everything. It's done by the mentally weak who NEED to have something control them, so they put their faith and belief into something that has zero tangible evidence and no way of proving, they give up their will to question it, and lower their mental capacity.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3mhnpy
|
e3ma9qm
| 2
| -1
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
First of all, your family is absolutely adorable! I know I’m late to commenting here, but I really want to mention a few things. I don’t know if I’ll change your mind, but there are a few things that need to be clarified.
First of all, “God’s plan” never once included your wife’s cancer, or any of the suffering that your family has faced. For people to try and explain your suffering away as part of a plan is foolish and insensitive. It’s true that God works all things together for good, but that doesn’t mean that he’s causing all this to happen. To give a cop out answer like that actually infuriated me as it cheapens your situation and makes God out to be a tyrant. In a way I feel like it’s a way for people to hide behind good intentions rather than actually help out where they can (and I apologize if that is wrong, that’s just been my experience).
Our own situation can definitely influence our perspective. When you look at all the negatives that are happening around you, you are bound to see an absence of God, but I encourage you to look at the positive and see the same thing, it’s much harder. Look at the smiles on your children’s faces. Look into your wife’s eyes. Take a breath of fresh air. Take a look at the night sky. You experience these things every day, yet it’s hard to place the sentence “God doesn’t exist” after those things. So while I can’t convince you that God does exist, what I can do is point out a bias where you back up your argument only with evidence that supports it and ignore the other side (which can obviously be hard to see given your situation).
To answer your question about God creating a different world, without the suffering and pain and loss that we experience now. What would that world look like? How do we achieve that world without becoming puppets to a Creator? Free will is a funny thing, and I can’t claim to know all the answers, but I challenge the fact that you can envision a world with one thing without giving up another. Even if your ideal universe existed, another in the world world dream up a different world, and so essentially we all start playing God ourselves.
This is such a tough topic to change someone’s mind about, but I’m willing to be the voice to answer questions. I don’t know it all, but I’m definitely willing to tread through it if you’re willing!
And even though it’s been said and may seem cliche or unhelpful, I will be praying for you, because I still believe healing is real (physical, emotional, spiritual, etc). I can’t help out financially, unfortunately, but if there’s anything else I can do to help, please let me know!
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So this is a Judaic view on suffering and God.
God Created man as a companion; before you question why, understand that God isn't in the realm of reason, law, or logic... unless He wants to be.
The Man was comfortably ignorant. They didn't know pain, suffering, or any 'negative' forces.
God said DON'T eat, but they did so they were privy to this painful reality. Now the revalation at Mt Sinai was originaly intended to undo this sin and restore our ignorance, but the sin of the golden calf happened and so we couldn't return to our pre-sin reality.
Now we are here... life sucks, we live and die, and nothing seems fair right?
Well, no. We have hope in the form of a saviour or messiah. This is where my view differs from orthodoxy. Yeshua(jesus) came and atoned for the sin, now we just have to wait until he comes back as a king instead of an offering and rules.
So with all that said while your situation is undeniably wrought with suffering there is a higher meaning to it. We may not see it, but it's there. We CAN have glimpses of this. please recognize this is a small example I by no means wish to diminish your troubles.
A man forgets his prayer bag in the terminal so he steps off the plane to get it forfiting his seat. Seems like a crappy situation but what flight did he miss? Flight 11 one of the planes involved in 9/11. There is an intelligent creator and you're an intelligent creation.
Don't take this as a guilt trip or a diss, but in a normal Jewish enviroment we look after eachother, We have a women that needed major hip surgery, we have fed her and drove her around. We have another lady that has thyroid cancer and no adrenal glands so we watch her youngest daughter when she goes out for treatments. These acts of kindness are the foundation of Torah and it makes these sufferings much more bearable and alot easier to see the good.
All in all. There is a creator, I have a bajillion proofs but the most important one is my life would lose almost all meaning, and a vibrant loving community would cease to exist.
Second most of the science used to disprove christianity was discovered by Jews 4000 years ago and has been slowly rediscoverd by Jews for the last 1000 years. Relativity, Germ Theory, the planets, the postion of earth, the relation ship between the sun and moon, the shape of the atom, and plenty of other "discoveries" that we have known from Torah.
The hebrew language is simply reality in digestible units. The word fire א aleph, ש shin, אש is a combination of two words ארץ 'eretz' 'land' and שמים 'shamyim' 'heaven'.
Combine them and you get earth mixing with air to creat guess what? Fire.
If anybody has questions I would love to answer.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3mpu05
|
e3mce8j
| 2
| 1
|
CMV: America is woefully unprepared for a major disaster
Examples include an invasion by a foreign country, civil war, nuclear attack, running out of fossil fuels, EMP blast, severe worldwide drought, asteroid strike or a massive volcanic eruption like the entirety of Yellowstone national park erupting.
Surviving the event itself will be easier than surviving the days, weeks, months and years afterward.
If all things electric shutdown because of an EMP blast including semi trucks, there goes 99% of the food supply for major cities. If the EMP goes off in the winter, many northern cities will see millions of people freeze to death in the cold. So, now everyone rushes to the supermarket to raid for food and those are scenes of major bloodbath and murders. Even if you have food and water storage, you may be dozens of miles away from land that can produce food through fishing, hunting or farming in the long term and that journey into the countryside may be more risky than what it is worth
At this point, horse drawn carriages will become a necessity and we don't have too much of those right now.
Meanwhile, the Amish are not as severely effected by this disaster as they are MUCH more self reliant than the average American. It might be a great idea for the federal government to consult with the Amish on an American disaster plan.
The beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic we saw people fist fighting over toilet paper... imagine when people start fighting over food...
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Ok, you got me there with the military invasion deal, but what about with civil war? !delta
|
The Amish are like 300k people mostly in or around 3 states.
A nuclear attack could wipe most of them out. I'm not sure in what sense they are "prepared" unless being relatively oblivious to the outside world is "prepared".
Granted, probably nobody would bother nuking the Amish. However, the Amish also would be complete pushovers that likely wouldn't exist without being situated in a powerful first world country protecting them.
America is certainly among the least well ordered of first world countries and has severe political problems. However, calling it woefully unprepared relative to the Amish is kind of absurd.
Major disasters are also often something you can't be prepared for aside from having active institutions and technologies anticipating them. The Amish basically don't have this. America does, even if they're janky and corrupt such as they are.
|
mvnetg
|
CMV: America is woefully unprepared for a major disaster
|
Examples include an invasion by a foreign country, civil war, nuclear attack, running out of fossil fuels, EMP blast, severe worldwide drought, asteroid strike or a massive volcanic eruption like the entirety of Yellowstone national park erupting.
Surviving the event itself will be easier than surviving the days, weeks, months and years afterward.
If all things electric shutdown because of an EMP blast including semi trucks, there goes 99% of the food supply for major cities. If the EMP goes off in the winter, many northern cities will see millions of people freeze to death in the cold. So, now everyone rushes to the supermarket to raid for food and those are scenes of major bloodbath and murders. Even if you have food and water storage, you may be dozens of miles away from land that can produce food through fishing, hunting or farming in the long term and that journey into the countryside may be more risky than what it is worth
At this point, horse drawn carriages will become a necessity and we don't have too much of those right now.
Meanwhile, the Amish are not as severely effected by this disaster as they are MUCH more self reliant than the average American. It might be a great idea for the federal government to consult with the Amish on an American disaster plan.
The beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic we saw people fist fighting over toilet paper... imagine when people start fighting over food...
| 1,619,033,425
|
overhardeggs
|
gvd09fu
|
gvczifp
| 1
| 0
|
CMV: America is woefully unprepared for a major disaster
Examples include an invasion by a foreign country, civil war, nuclear attack, running out of fossil fuels, EMP blast, severe worldwide drought, asteroid strike or a massive volcanic eruption like the entirety of Yellowstone national park erupting.
Surviving the event itself will be easier than surviving the days, weeks, months and years afterward.
If all things electric shutdown because of an EMP blast including semi trucks, there goes 99% of the food supply for major cities. If the EMP goes off in the winter, many northern cities will see millions of people freeze to death in the cold. So, now everyone rushes to the supermarket to raid for food and those are scenes of major bloodbath and murders. Even if you have food and water storage, you may be dozens of miles away from land that can produce food through fishing, hunting or farming in the long term and that journey into the countryside may be more risky than what it is worth
At this point, horse drawn carriages will become a necessity and we don't have too much of those right now.
Meanwhile, the Amish are not as severely effected by this disaster as they are MUCH more self reliant than the average American. It might be a great idea for the federal government to consult with the Amish on an American disaster plan.
The beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic we saw people fist fighting over toilet paper... imagine when people start fighting over food...
|
Bruh...how many Amish people do you know?
I live in Amish country. They are much more connected to the normal world than you seem to understand.
|
Hey, okay, I agree with a lot of what you said but I think you underestimate the power of one trillion dollars of defense spending. I'm not one of those guys, but we can probably take anyone in combat at any time. The rest of anything else, though. Yeah-we screwed.
|
mvnetg
|
CMV: America is woefully unprepared for a major disaster
|
Examples include an invasion by a foreign country, civil war, nuclear attack, running out of fossil fuels, EMP blast, severe worldwide drought, asteroid strike or a massive volcanic eruption like the entirety of Yellowstone national park erupting.
Surviving the event itself will be easier than surviving the days, weeks, months and years afterward.
If all things electric shutdown because of an EMP blast including semi trucks, there goes 99% of the food supply for major cities. If the EMP goes off in the winter, many northern cities will see millions of people freeze to death in the cold. So, now everyone rushes to the supermarket to raid for food and those are scenes of major bloodbath and murders. Even if you have food and water storage, you may be dozens of miles away from land that can produce food through fishing, hunting or farming in the long term and that journey into the countryside may be more risky than what it is worth
At this point, horse drawn carriages will become a necessity and we don't have too much of those right now.
Meanwhile, the Amish are not as severely effected by this disaster as they are MUCH more self reliant than the average American. It might be a great idea for the federal government to consult with the Amish on an American disaster plan.
The beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic we saw people fist fighting over toilet paper... imagine when people start fighting over food...
| 1,619,033,425
|
overhardeggs
|
gvd03xe
|
gvczw1q
| 13
| 3
|
CMV: Humans will most likely never go extinct
The idea that humanity is doomed to extinction seems to be conventional wisdom at this point, and many believe our end is already right around the corner. However, that seems incredibly unlikely to ever happen. Let's go through some of the potential ways in which we might join the dinosaurs:
Asteroid impacts seem to be the prime suspect in popular belief. However, large impactors are much rarer in the inner solar system that one might think; after all, the last one to cause a mass extinction hit 65 million years ago. Humans will likely be able to divert such objects within one or two centuries at most; the chances that a huge comet or asteroid would hit us by then are extremely small.
Supernova and gamma ray bursts directed at Earth are much harder to protect a planet against than asteroids. However, supernovae are simply a non-issue for the near future; the closest candidate is over 150 light years away (enough to temporarily reduce the ozone layer, not to eradicate all life on Earth), and the star's trajectory in relation to our own will likely carry it much further away by the time it collapse. GRBs are less predictable, as they can hit from greater distances, but they seem to be even more rare as the jets have to be oriented towards our solar system in order to cause damage (only a few are estimated to hit us every billion years). Like supernovae, they aren't world-ending events unless one occurs in relative proximity to us, but they are still likely a greater threat than asteroids.
Supervolcanic eruptions are more frequent, but not quite powerful enough to cause a major extinction event. In fact, prehistoric humans survived one of these 74 000 years ago, when we were fewer than a million and barely had any technology beyond the mastery of fire. We can say for certain that Yellowstone will not be the end of us. However, flood basalt eruptions appear to be the main cause of major extinction events on earth, and were almost certainly the cause of the Great Dying at the end of the Permian. Surely one would kill us all, right? Volcanic eruptions are much more predictable than other natural phenomenons. If billions of cubic meters of magma were accumulating under the Earth's crust, we would know about it. Furthermore, the formation of large igneous provinces is a process that seems to take tens of thousands of years. This is just far too long to cause the extinction of a species with access to advanced technology.
What about nukes? Even an all-out nuclear war would likely leave the Southern Hemisphere in a bad shape (mostly from famine and the collapse of the global economy), but in a position to rebuild civilization. There may be some extinctions, but no Fallout-like post apocalypse and certainly no change to Earth's orbit.
Diseases, especially biological weapons, stand perhaps the best chance of killing us all. But even that is assuming said disease can resist all treatment, spread to every human and have a >99% fatality or sterility rate. Very few diseases meet even one of these criteria.
Climate change is an often quoted example, and not a bad one at that. Let me be clear, the science is clear on this: man-made climate change is a fact. However, while the worst-case scenario (a serious possibility at this point) is a mass extinction and societal collapse, most scientists agree that a runaway greenhouse effect analogous to the one on Venus, which would render Earth uninhabitable, cannot be caused by human activity. In fact, the aforementioned flood basalt eruptions caused even greater rises in global temperature with catastrophic, but not quite world-ending results.
AI uprisings, self-replicating nanites, alien invasions and other more hypothetical scenarios might be more or less likely to destroy us all that we think, but it's too early to speculate on those.
As for events in the very far future, such as the end of the carbon cycle, the cooling of Earth's core or the Sun becoming a red giant, we have no idea what humankind will be capable of in billions of years. The same goes for the theorized heat death of the universe in trillions of years.
Most importantly. any humanity-ending event would have to happen in the next few centuries. The moment we have self-sufficient colonies on other planets, driving us to extinction goes from difficult to practically impossible.
Perhaps I am missing something, overestimating our ability to adapt or conversely underestimating the destructive potential of one or more of these disasters. What do you think?
EDIT : "Humanity" here is defined rather broadly as Homo Sapiens and all its potential descendants. If, in the future, a post-human species diverged from our own either through natural evolution or artificial means, they would still be a part of humanity under this definition.
EDIT 2 : While I still maintain that the survival of humanity is overwhelmingly likely in the foreseeable future, there is currently no reason to assume we will be able to alter the laws of physics and avoid end-of-the-universe scenarios such as the Big Freeze (heat death) or Big Rip. I've awarded two deltas for the comments pointing out my mistake, so I'll consider discussion on that particular aspect closed for now. I'm still willing to change my view on every other aspect of my position.
|
> The same goes for the theorized heat death of the universe in trillions of years.
There is literally zero reason to believe that human kind will be capable to doing anything against heat death. Regardless of self-sufficient colonies on other planets.
|
Human extinction is unpredictable but inevitable. Extend your timeline far enough into the future and you'll find that the part of the universe human beings are capable of inhabiting will necessarily become inhospitable to life. We can't change the fundamental laws of physics.
|
e2n503
|
CMV: Humans will most likely never go extinct
|
The idea that humanity is doomed to extinction seems to be conventional wisdom at this point, and many believe our end is already right around the corner. However, that seems incredibly unlikely to ever happen. Let's go through some of the potential ways in which we might join the dinosaurs:
Asteroid impacts seem to be the prime suspect in popular belief. However, large impactors are much rarer in the inner solar system that one might think; after all, the last one to cause a mass extinction hit 65 million years ago. Humans will likely be able to divert such objects within one or two centuries at most; the chances that a huge comet or asteroid would hit us by then are extremely small.
Supernova and gamma ray bursts directed at Earth are much harder to protect a planet against than asteroids. However, supernovae are simply a non-issue for the near future; the closest candidate is over 150 light years away (enough to temporarily reduce the ozone layer, not to eradicate all life on Earth), and the star's trajectory in relation to our own will likely carry it much further away by the time it collapse. GRBs are less predictable, as they can hit from greater distances, but they seem to be even more rare as the jets have to be oriented towards our solar system in order to cause damage (only a few are estimated to hit us every billion years). Like supernovae, they aren't world-ending events unless one occurs in relative proximity to us, but they are still likely a greater threat than asteroids.
Supervolcanic eruptions are more frequent, but not quite powerful enough to cause a major extinction event. In fact, prehistoric humans survived one of these 74 000 years ago, when we were fewer than a million and barely had any technology beyond the mastery of fire. We can say for certain that Yellowstone will not be the end of us. However, flood basalt eruptions appear to be the main cause of major extinction events on earth, and were almost certainly the cause of the Great Dying at the end of the Permian. Surely one would kill us all, right? Volcanic eruptions are much more predictable than other natural phenomenons. If billions of cubic meters of magma were accumulating under the Earth's crust, we would know about it. Furthermore, the formation of large igneous provinces is a process that seems to take tens of thousands of years. This is just far too long to cause the extinction of a species with access to advanced technology.
What about nukes? Even an all-out nuclear war would likely leave the Southern Hemisphere in a bad shape (mostly from famine and the collapse of the global economy), but in a position to rebuild civilization. There may be some extinctions, but no Fallout-like post apocalypse and certainly no change to Earth's orbit.
Diseases, especially biological weapons, stand perhaps the best chance of killing us all. But even that is assuming said disease can resist all treatment, spread to every human and have a >99% fatality or sterility rate. Very few diseases meet even one of these criteria.
Climate change is an often quoted example, and not a bad one at that. Let me be clear, the science is clear on this: man-made climate change is a fact. However, while the worst-case scenario (a serious possibility at this point) is a mass extinction and societal collapse, most scientists agree that a runaway greenhouse effect analogous to the one on Venus, which would render Earth uninhabitable, cannot be caused by human activity. In fact, the aforementioned flood basalt eruptions caused even greater rises in global temperature with catastrophic, but not quite world-ending results.
AI uprisings, self-replicating nanites, alien invasions and other more hypothetical scenarios might be more or less likely to destroy us all that we think, but it's too early to speculate on those.
As for events in the very far future, such as the end of the carbon cycle, the cooling of Earth's core or the Sun becoming a red giant, we have no idea what humankind will be capable of in billions of years. The same goes for the theorized heat death of the universe in trillions of years.
Most importantly. any humanity-ending event would have to happen in the next few centuries. The moment we have self-sufficient colonies on other planets, driving us to extinction goes from difficult to practically impossible.
Perhaps I am missing something, overestimating our ability to adapt or conversely underestimating the destructive potential of one or more of these disasters. What do you think?
EDIT : "Humanity" here is defined rather broadly as Homo Sapiens and all its potential descendants. If, in the future, a post-human species diverged from our own either through natural evolution or artificial means, they would still be a part of humanity under this definition.
EDIT 2 : While I still maintain that the survival of humanity is overwhelmingly likely in the foreseeable future, there is currently no reason to assume we will be able to alter the laws of physics and avoid end-of-the-universe scenarios such as the Big Freeze (heat death) or Big Rip. I've awarded two deltas for the comments pointing out my mistake, so I'll consider discussion on that particular aspect closed for now. I'm still willing to change my view on every other aspect of my position.
| 1,574,890,077
|
D3v1ous
|
f8wko4s
|
f8wgv91
| 20
| 10
|
CMV: Your political views are not a reason to cut ties from family, friends, etc.
‘Tis the season for everyone to say “I have a racist uncle,” “drunk divorced aunt,” etc. I am not saying that your racist uncle or hypocritical aunt have acceptable and/or PC views. Please, let’s not debate the acceptability of these views.
What I want to discuss is the fact that these people, hopefully, mattered to you at some point. Whether it’s your family or a good friend, is it really worth it to cut those ties? “I can’t imagine having any relationship at all with someone who believes such reprehensible things!” Why? If you, or the other person, aren’t mature enough to have a polite, adult conversation about a topic, just don’t talk about it. “I can’t ignore it. They just hound me until I respond.” Be the bigger adult. Change the subject. Flatly tell them that you don’t want to discuss it.
Yes, it’s annoying and takes effort. I just feel that in a world where so many people feel lonely, cutting off people because you have disagreements seems immature and hasty.
I will clarify, I get that some people aren’t polite and you can’t avoid polarizing conditions/conversations. I’m not saying that everyone can be reasoned with. I’ve just been seeing a lot of posts across Reddit advocating for just cutting off family and friends who don’t share your beliefs, and it seems like a little bit of an overreaction.
Example: Every holiday season my mom finds a way to hound me about the fact that I no longer go to church. Every. Single. Time. Rather than let it escalate to a shouting match, I change the topic early and do my best to avoid it altogether. To me, it’s worth the effort to try and maintain my relationship with my mother, even though we have conflicting views.
|
you seem to find it easy to change the subject when people bring up topics you dislike in terms of politics-- presumably because most politicised things don't affect you on a personal level. for a lot of people their political views are informed by policies specifically targeting them.
for instance, if you're straight and for gay marriage, it might seem relatively removed from you as a person, it's just a viewpoint. if you're gay, then it's people who don't want you to be able to get married when they're against it.
likewise, in my case, i am mixed race and my grandmothers sister is (very) racist. she makes a lot of comments about how much better id look if i had "come from better stock on the other side" so it's not pleasant to experience. her political views are personal on my end.
most people who have cut ties over "just politics" probably have a personal stake, whether directly or as a result of a friend or partner.
|
I agree that family bonds are more important than political opinions.
But for some households, politics are personal. In history many family rivalries have been created in terms of cultural seperation or "family feuds" regarding certain individuals or people.
For example in the 1960's especially in the southern states, if a white girl started dating a black guy and brought him over for Christmas dinner, politically the family would not approve. Racism was ingrained not only personally but politics as the whole "seperate but equal" thing and policies regarding interracial marriage. By the girl bringing him over and imposing different social politcal views, these things became more normal and benefitted society eventually ending alot of racist concepts.
Maybe close minded alt right uncle jimbo needs to open his heart more and SJW little sister needs to accept reality by both being reminded of their extreme poltical agendas.
Families vary, cultural vary, aswell as different parts of the world.
|
a8jvtg
|
CMV: Your political views are not a reason to cut ties from family, friends, etc.
|
‘Tis the season for everyone to say “I have a racist uncle,” “drunk divorced aunt,” etc. I am not saying that your racist uncle or hypocritical aunt have acceptable and/or PC views. Please, let’s not debate the acceptability of these views.
What I want to discuss is the fact that these people, hopefully, mattered to you at some point. Whether it’s your family or a good friend, is it really worth it to cut those ties? “I can’t imagine having any relationship at all with someone who believes such reprehensible things!” Why? If you, or the other person, aren’t mature enough to have a polite, adult conversation about a topic, just don’t talk about it. “I can’t ignore it. They just hound me until I respond.” Be the bigger adult. Change the subject. Flatly tell them that you don’t want to discuss it.
Yes, it’s annoying and takes effort. I just feel that in a world where so many people feel lonely, cutting off people because you have disagreements seems immature and hasty.
I will clarify, I get that some people aren’t polite and you can’t avoid polarizing conditions/conversations. I’m not saying that everyone can be reasoned with. I’ve just been seeing a lot of posts across Reddit advocating for just cutting off family and friends who don’t share your beliefs, and it seems like a little bit of an overreaction.
Example: Every holiday season my mom finds a way to hound me about the fact that I no longer go to church. Every. Single. Time. Rather than let it escalate to a shouting match, I change the topic early and do my best to avoid it altogether. To me, it’s worth the effort to try and maintain my relationship with my mother, even though we have conflicting views.
| 1,545,474,942
|
tnel77
|
ecbmx0s
|
ecb9xps
| 9
| 1
|
CMV: You shouldn't have to pay taxes unless you have a direct say where your specific contribution is going.
I always thought it was stupid that you have to pay taxes, and especially such absurd amounts, without having any actual say in where it goes. Yeah, sure, you can vote, but again, that isn't really direct. I think if someone works for their money and Uncle Sam is just going to drop in and say: "I'll take some of that off your hands, and do whatever I want with it," there should be some accountability. (If you really think about it, if anyone other than the government told you that, you'd probably tell them to F off.)
Edit:
I might have had too optimistic of a view for how taxes should work. Sorry for the trouble everyone.
|
>(If you really think about it, if anyone other than the government told you that, you'd probably tell them to F off.)
Yeah, that's probably true -- because that anyone isn't paying for my roads, my emergency services, my law enforcement, the list goes on. You're implying that the government takes your money and spends it on booze and hookers.
Other people have already pointed out the sheer impracticality of having to determine exactly where all your tax dollars are spent on, so I don't need to touch upon that here. The bottom line is that if you follow your title to its logical end game, you'd be living in a third world country.
|
You live in this society; it costs money to maintain, you have to pay taxes.
If you gave people a choice what they had to pay for, nobody would pay for anything. Who wants to pay for roads? Who wants to pay for schools? Who wants to pay for a new tire for a convoy truck? In reality the federal government has a lot of things that it has to pay for, most of it uninteresting, and some that is controversial that still needs to be paid for. Your tax contribution is just a fraction of a drop in the bucket. It wouldn't be practical generate an entire itemized list of government spending, let alone let you know exactly what fraction of a fighter jet wing the government your individual tax payment funded
|
a8ngo9
|
CMV: You shouldn't have to pay taxes unless you have a direct say where your specific contribution is going.
|
I always thought it was stupid that you have to pay taxes, and especially such absurd amounts, without having any actual say in where it goes. Yeah, sure, you can vote, but again, that isn't really direct. I think if someone works for their money and Uncle Sam is just going to drop in and say: "I'll take some of that off your hands, and do whatever I want with it," there should be some accountability. (If you really think about it, if anyone other than the government told you that, you'd probably tell them to F off.)
Edit:
I might have had too optimistic of a view for how taxes should work. Sorry for the trouble everyone.
| 1,545,505,623
|
MyUsernameIsFree
|
ecc4w5f
|
ecc4t0q
| 8
| 3
|
CMV: Corporate Diversity Initiatives Generally Do More Harm Than Good
For this post, I will consider "corporate diversity initiatives" to be corporate policies intending to increase the number of "diverse" candidates that they hire or promote. This might include inviting diverse candidates to exclusive networking events, resume reviews, leadership workshops, etc., subjecting non-diverse candidates to greater scrutiny in the hiring/promotion process (or "double-checking" diverse candidates before ruling them out)\*, or evaluating recruiters on the basis of the diversity of the candidates they put forward. Simple statements about desiring diverse candidates or perspectives do not qualify under my definition.
\*Yes, I know of many anecdotal cases of both of these things happening.
Diverse candidates will be considered those whose major demographics (race, sex, sexual orientation, etc) differ from that of the "typical" worker in their industry. For instance, a female engineer, a male teacher, or a black doctor would all qualify under this definition.
As a female interested in computer science, I am one of the intended beneficiaries of these types of policies. However, I think they are harmful for a number of reasons:
1. They can make diverse workers susceptible to [Imposter Syndrome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome) by introducing the possibility that these individuals were hired, at least in part, because of the diversity they bring to the work environment. Even if this individual would have been hired regardless of demographics, they have no way of knowing this for sure and are still susceptible to this phenomenon (which can have severe psychological impacts).
2. They can contribute to a hostile work environment for diverse workers. Non-diverse workers may assume that diverse workers are less qualified (regardless of if that is really true) because of the apparent advantage they get in the hiring and promotion processes. This can cause a breakdown of trust within teams, which ultimately harms their productivity.
3A) *In most cases*, I don't think that diverse teams are inherently more effective than homogeneous ones when diversity is based on demographic characteristics. Yes, I have read several studies suggesting that diverse talent yields better results, but I haven't found any reason why diverse teams (in terms of demographics) would actually cause better results; I suspect that there are some confounding variables at play.
3B) I can think of a handful of contexts where diverse workers would likely have a significant and positive impact on performance, yet these do not seem to be the contexts in which diversity efforts are focused. For instance, it's reasonable to suggest that male elementary school teachers could be more effective in engaging male students, who are considered at-risk in our education system and who experience lower engagement, higher dropout rates, lower grades and lower rates of college attendance as compared to females. However, to my knowledge, there aren't any concerted efforts to encourage more young men to pursue careers in elementary education.
4) If the incentives are strong enough, it can lead to less qualified candidates being hired over more qualified ones due to their unchangeable demographic characteristics, which is both unfair and harmful to workplace productivity. I am not saying that diverse candidates are always (or even on average) less qualified than non-diverse candidates. As an example, let's say a tech company receives 70% of applications from males and 30% from females. If they desire 50% female representation, they will need to hire a greater percentage of the female applicants. Therefore, even if the distribution of qualification of males and females was exactly equal, less qualified female candidates would need to be hired.
5) Diversity in *viewpoint* is extremely important to the quality of a team's output, but I think this is too often conflated with diversity of demographics. Just because there are statistical differences in the way certain groups think about particular issues does not mean that a demographically-diverse team is necessarily more ideologically diverse than a demographically-homogeneous one. It also does not mean that systems are in place to ensure that those with diverse viewpoints are comfortable voicing these opinions to the group, which is necessary for the benefits of diverse opinions to be realized.
So, Change My View!
​
Edit: Thanks for the responses so far. There have been lots of good things discussed, so keep 'em coming!
|
> However, to my knowledge, there aren't any concerted efforts to encourage more young men to pursue careers in elementary education.
[NYTimes](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/07/sunday-review/why-dont-more-men-go-into-teaching.html) on the research into why men do not go into teaching and how we can fix it. [The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/12/programs-teachers-african-american-men/420306/) on recruiting programs for men in teaching.
The problem with teaching is that there is such a large shortage, and so few employers with the spare money for Google-like perks or recruiting programs, that schools just want anyone they can get. In some states, the only requirement to become a substitute teacher is a high school diploma.
A similar argument is about the shortage of men in nursing. There *is* a very strong push for men in nursing. Here's a post by a man on a [nursing forum](https://allnurses.com/why-push-get-men-nursing-t687537/) about the current campaigns and societal push to get men into nursing. Here's articles in [NPR](https://www.npr.org/2018/10/02/653570048/why-more-men-dont-get-into-the-field-of-nursing) and the [NYTimes](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/01/04/upshot/male-nurses.html). Here's an article about [organizations](https://healthcare.dmagazine.com/2018/01/22/why-more-men-are-becoming-nurses/) in the field. [Here's](https://www.nursingscholarships.org/male-nursing-scholarships/) just a few male-specific nursing scholarships, although since you can become a nurse through community college there isn't much need for scholarships in the field.
> a male teacher, or a black doctor would all qualify under this definition.
If you understand the benefit of male teachers and the reason for the demand, do you also understand the demand for diverse health professionals (including male nurses and black doctors)?
[Research](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1913079/) shows that black and hispanic populations have much less trust in the medical system than white populations do. This is not unfair, due to the ways in which black people and other minorities have been taken advantage of by the medical community; some of the most famous examples are the Tuskegee Syphilis Study, where hundreds of black men were nonconsensually and intentionally administered syphilis and denied treatment, and Henrietta Lacks, whose cells were taken without her consent.
[One study in 2013](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22818646) found that Black patients were given longer wait times than White patients for the same complaints, and other modern studies show that physicians spend less time with Black patients and consider them as less honest.
Black healthcare providers provide an option that black patients may feel more comfortable with, have a broader understanding of socioeconomic factors relevant to black populations, and may help to humanize the black community by just interacting with hospital staff as a capable and intelligent peer.
|
You say that there may be a possibility that diverse workers were hired more based on their diverse background and less on their qualifications. You can also safely assume that some non-diverse hires are there because of their privileged background and not their qualifications. Those that assume that a diverse hire is less qualified are probably less qualified as well then and were strictly hired for their privileged being, right? Yes.
You also state that you’ve seen research, FACTS, but instead of believing that, you’ll go with your feelings about the diverse hires being better for business. That’s not a logical way to form an opinion. Facts matter. Your feelings, not so much. Not without proof.
Finally, you yourself state that you can see how diversity helps in some instances. So why are you arguing against what you know for a fact, research, and believe, is true? What is the real underlying reason for your view since it is not based in fact???
Diversity is always best because it brings different ideas to the table. Yes, people need to be qualified, but no one, not even once, has advocated for hiring a less qualified person just because of how they look or where they are from. Oh wait, yes they have. And it’s called discrimination, generally in a patriarchal, in our case white male dominated society, which is outlawed. Diversity hiring is intended to combat that and it does.
|
e2mctn
|
CMV: Corporate Diversity Initiatives Generally Do More Harm Than Good
|
For this post, I will consider "corporate diversity initiatives" to be corporate policies intending to increase the number of "diverse" candidates that they hire or promote. This might include inviting diverse candidates to exclusive networking events, resume reviews, leadership workshops, etc., subjecting non-diverse candidates to greater scrutiny in the hiring/promotion process (or "double-checking" diverse candidates before ruling them out)\*, or evaluating recruiters on the basis of the diversity of the candidates they put forward. Simple statements about desiring diverse candidates or perspectives do not qualify under my definition.
\*Yes, I know of many anecdotal cases of both of these things happening.
Diverse candidates will be considered those whose major demographics (race, sex, sexual orientation, etc) differ from that of the "typical" worker in their industry. For instance, a female engineer, a male teacher, or a black doctor would all qualify under this definition.
As a female interested in computer science, I am one of the intended beneficiaries of these types of policies. However, I think they are harmful for a number of reasons:
1. They can make diverse workers susceptible to [Imposter Syndrome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome) by introducing the possibility that these individuals were hired, at least in part, because of the diversity they bring to the work environment. Even if this individual would have been hired regardless of demographics, they have no way of knowing this for sure and are still susceptible to this phenomenon (which can have severe psychological impacts).
2. They can contribute to a hostile work environment for diverse workers. Non-diverse workers may assume that diverse workers are less qualified (regardless of if that is really true) because of the apparent advantage they get in the hiring and promotion processes. This can cause a breakdown of trust within teams, which ultimately harms their productivity.
3A) *In most cases*, I don't think that diverse teams are inherently more effective than homogeneous ones when diversity is based on demographic characteristics. Yes, I have read several studies suggesting that diverse talent yields better results, but I haven't found any reason why diverse teams (in terms of demographics) would actually cause better results; I suspect that there are some confounding variables at play.
3B) I can think of a handful of contexts where diverse workers would likely have a significant and positive impact on performance, yet these do not seem to be the contexts in which diversity efforts are focused. For instance, it's reasonable to suggest that male elementary school teachers could be more effective in engaging male students, who are considered at-risk in our education system and who experience lower engagement, higher dropout rates, lower grades and lower rates of college attendance as compared to females. However, to my knowledge, there aren't any concerted efforts to encourage more young men to pursue careers in elementary education.
4) If the incentives are strong enough, it can lead to less qualified candidates being hired over more qualified ones due to their unchangeable demographic characteristics, which is both unfair and harmful to workplace productivity. I am not saying that diverse candidates are always (or even on average) less qualified than non-diverse candidates. As an example, let's say a tech company receives 70% of applications from males and 30% from females. If they desire 50% female representation, they will need to hire a greater percentage of the female applicants. Therefore, even if the distribution of qualification of males and females was exactly equal, less qualified female candidates would need to be hired.
5) Diversity in *viewpoint* is extremely important to the quality of a team's output, but I think this is too often conflated with diversity of demographics. Just because there are statistical differences in the way certain groups think about particular issues does not mean that a demographically-diverse team is necessarily more ideologically diverse than a demographically-homogeneous one. It also does not mean that systems are in place to ensure that those with diverse viewpoints are comfortable voicing these opinions to the group, which is necessary for the benefits of diverse opinions to be realized.
So, Change My View!
​
Edit: Thanks for the responses so far. There have been lots of good things discussed, so keep 'em coming!
| 1,574,887,021
|
thinker111111
|
f8wf1m3
|
f8wd44b
| 22
| 16
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
There's no convincing someone there is or isn't some sort of God so to speak, without them wanting, in some small part, to believe there is. There's just no way to logic it out because there's no way to know for certain. So I'll try to convince you to at least have a little faith in something *better.*
Faith gives many a hope that there is something better than what we are dealing with now. And hope is really what keeps people going: hope that things will get better, hope that you'll be happy, hope that others will be happy, hope that when this is over it'll all be better. If that faith is wrong we'll never know it, and if it's right then that's fantastic.
But what truly happens *after* isn't the point, I think. It's what happens *now.* I have faith that, if I continue to do the right thing by people, I will be rewarded with peace finally. Something, somewhere, will reward me for doing my damndest to try and be as objectively a good person as I can manage despite all the shit I don't understand. After all, I exist, therefore I am, or however that saying goes. What matters is I exist. And, I'd love for this current existence to be perfect, but it never will. So I choose to have faith that by doing good, I'll be closer to a perfect existence in whatever happens next, after I die. Maybe that perfect existence is non-existence, I don't know for certain, and none of us will until we die, but I have faith that it will be better than today.
This manifests, for me, as Islam. That may not be what it manifests as for you. It might just be as simple as "if I do as much good as possible I will be rewarded at some time."
If that's it, congratulations, you have faith. You have hope. And, really, that's all God is about. Maybe there is no God, maybe there's no cosmic judge, maybe there's nothing else to it. I can't convince you there's a being running this whole show, and I don't care if you believe in a being doing all of this or not.
But maybe there's something better waiting for you, and all you gotta do is try your best with the hand you've been dealt. That doesn't mean you have to pray 5x a day or stop eating pork or drink the blood of a guy you don't believe in, but just have faith that the good you do isn't for nothing and maybe you can get through today on that hope.
And hey, even if it is for nothing, does it really matter at that point?
I know I rambled a lot. Probably contradicted myself too, I just hope you can find some peace and hope.
|
Instead of convincing you to believe in God, I would rather let you believe that no such higher being exists. You may ask why? Because I wouldn't dare try Muhammad Ali to stop dancing and fight like Marciano or Tyson. And that too in the ring.
You are presently going through a very vwry tough face in your life. I lost my grandfather due to pancreatic cancer on the day the entrance exam for a university was to be held and of course I missed it. For a whole year I sat at home depressed and doubting my abilities while my friends enjoyed their first year at college, and failed that exam again. But I had given another exam for another university too, and I cleared it. So finally my ass was saved... But my situation was nowhere as complicated as yours and clearly I cannot comprehend the stress you are presently going through. All I can tell you from my experience is that this ain't the time to decide whether or not you must believe in God. This is the time when you instead of cursing God for his works, should instead take the bat in your hand and walk towards the pitch of life yourself. You get what I mean? Stop thinking about God or anything related to him. That's it. For centuries wise men on whose work our world now stands have contemplated on the existence of God and have always come into conflict with each other. What you can do at present is to fight. I say again that I cannot possibly imagine the pain you are going through, but at best all I can do is to help you in some way or the other. Life will be giving you uppercuts and jabs on a daily basis now, but try to find those golden moments with your family when you forget all the problems in the world. You must search for shortcuts, plan for battles ahead in advance, and to get some help. The opportunity, the golden moment when you will have found a way to win will present itself. And probably in your battle you may encounter God....
Well did i told you about a theory of God i made in my gap year? I don't believe in Big Bang coming just out of nowhere. It seems counter-intuitive. I believe that Gods and Godesses are beings of another universe who reached such a level of progress that they eventually decided to pass on their legacy to another race in another universe. Just like we have children so that they can carry our lagacy into tyr future, Gods created us so that their legacy continues in case their own universe ends (read Big Crunch and Big Bang. If the universe hosting the *parents* of human civilization has gone a big crunch, then my theory has some validity.) I believe that we all can at least consider the possibility of such Gods who don't interfere in this universe. :-)
At the end of my noob help, all I can do is to wish you with my standard greetings:
#Live long and prosper 🖖
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3m6ziw
|
e3lw6xy
| 5
| 4
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
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Sorry about your pain and struggles. I hope it gets better soon.
I’m somewhere between an atheist and a pantheist. I sometimes believe in God but not the religious notion of God. Pantheism’s ideal is of a God who is a totality of everything. Like someone commented earlier, we are like microscopic cells that make a part of him. Cells get worn out, repair, die and new ones come. Only the best survive and thrive.
I grew up religious but I’ve totally defenestrated their notion of God. I can’t believe in a floating man constantly ordering the affairs of over 7 billion people. Deists have a better grasp of things as they believe God does not interfere in anything - which makes sense but makes him cold. Why create mankind and leave them alone to suffer? Abrahamic religionists have all sorts of responses to why God allows us to suffer; a test of faith, it’s only temporal and God has a master plan of every one of us etc. I call all those balderdash. I can never understand a God who condones so much evil and wickedness in a world he created and so far theodicy has been an extremely weak attempt to explain things. It just doesn’t make sense.
Some people are born genetically flawed - illnesses, physical impairment and all that. Others are luckier but their environments are against them. No matter what they do - as they weren’t born into good circumstances - there’s a huge obstacle to how successful they can be. Take a look at the starving African kids and ghetto kids from all over. Many don’t even get a chance to be educated. Others still are born luckier; good genes, great health, wealthy parents and all that stuff. They have life working out for them and enjoy every bit of it.
There’s so much unfairness and inequality which contradicts any claims of a divine hand in control, at least to me.
Back to you OP. It’s going to be a hard struggle and things may never be the same. Someone mentioned something earlier about positivity and negativity and how people want to associate with positivity only. I understand - like you mentioned - that you’re in a dark place and have become very negative. People are naturally selfish and every interaction is a transaction. If they only get negative vibes from you (even though you have the right) they would gradually abandon you and you would become more dejected. Nobody is truly there for you, you have to find a means to make things better.
Whatever assistance you get from people, you should capitalise on it and create a means to survive. If you’re physically impaired and can’t get a job, try to look at other means of sustaining a livelihood. You write well, can you be a writer? Do you have a skill you can do at a desk? Perhaps programming, typing, knitting.. anything. The best way with is to analyse things thoroughly and choose the most expedient step. Think about something you can do, whatever it is, anything at all. You just have to keep living and you have to do it for your kids. It’s going to be so much harder than it was but it is what it is. We should get the most out of every situation.
“Il faut cultivar son jardin”
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>Please change my view, I'm in a very dark place right now.
I don't think I have to tell you this, but you're in hell. Now I'm not somebody who believes in God, at least not the traditional view of God. I'd still consider myself an atheist, but the Bible as a religious Doctrine is a philosophical one. It's essentially a text on metaphysics, just laced with metaphor and allegory.
To put it simply, God isn't a real thing, it's a concept. And God represents a few things, he represents the perfect moral person, he represents Society in order, he represents a bulwark against nature and chaos, and he represents the future.
Now the thing is that people can fall into hell without realizing it, or even any fault of their own. And hell isn't a place, at least not in the physical sense, it's a state of mind. When you reject God as a concept, you go to hell. In other words, when you reject the basic moral teachings, you go to a dark place. And that's the place that you found yourself in, it's within your own mind and it's a place that you could leave, but I completely understand that it's much more difficult than simply saying it.
The basic teachings that we are taught Through the Bible state that life is suffering, things will go horribly wrong and people will die, but it's up to us to act as moral individuals and be strong for ourselves, our family, our friends, and our community. But how can you be strong against the forces of the universe, a cold dark place where everyone dies, everyone suffers, and nothing matters? Realize that there is always something that you can do, there's always something that you could do better. That's meaning, and through meaning is the only path to leave hell, that dark place in your mind. Find the things that are left, the things that you are grateful for, maybe the time that you have left with your children, maybe the time that you have left with your wife, and take on the responsibility to make it as bearable for them as possible. If you give into suffering then the universe will crush you and it will be painful. But if you take on as much responsibility as you can to make your situation as nice as it could be, and that doesn't mean that everything gets better, it just means that it's slightly more bearable than it was before, then you'll be able to leave that place of suffering and hopelessness in your mind.
Obviously this isn't easy, but you really only have an ultimatum, you either pick up the burden, or you let It Crush you. If you let It Crush you, it will be a slow and agonizing death. So pick up what burden you can, and make what little you have and make it something that makes you want to keep going.
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL22J3VaeABQD_IZs7y60I3lUrrFTzkpat
I can't take credit for these ideas, they're a combination of different interpretations pulled together through a man named Jordan Peterson. He's a doctor of psychology of the University of Toronto who's become world famous, and although he has his own controversy associated with him, his biblical lecture Series has been an inspiration for millions of people. Take a look at it, it helped me better understand what I need to do and my life has gotten much better for it.
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94k9lf
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CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
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Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
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joshingkatie
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e3m418q
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e3lycdy
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CMV: I believe that the way you are raised can have long-lasting negative repercussions, that may not be reversible.
I have created this post specifically for myself and will provide personal context (as it does influence my view.) I will also provide a generalized version for discussion.
###Personal Context
>I was raised with the freedom to never have to do homework. I now have no study habits as a young adult, and cannot focus on a book or written material. I was never raised with concern to my hygeine, and as a young adult I still do not brush my teeth, and sometimes do not shower. I was raised by a man that never did anything but sit at a computer all day. Though I loved being outside as a child, here I sit.
>Even though I maintain awareness of my failures, I have yet to make dedicated change on any of them. The hardest part of anything is maintaining a daily routine. I even thought seeking outside help would work, but my significant other seems to have 'lowered' to my level and does not really force me to do anything.
> I really looked for an outside opinion. Therapy, psychiatric help, medication, books. I own a wealth of books intended to fix laziness/procrastination, or individual habits.
##Generalized points of my current view:
* Children are meant to be instilled with good habits early on in their life. They are eager to learn, often by example, and easily impressionable.
* If these habits are not instilled, or worse yet replaced with bad habits, it may be impossible to make change without severe outside influence (military training/other forced internment)
* If there were any reasonable way for an individual to correct these deficiencies, it is the nature of the general public to either *profit from it* or *share it.* One of the other almost universally happens.
* The general instruction is to just **do it.** I imagine this works for someone that just needs the inspiration to do the right thing, but doesn't seem appropriate for 10-20 years (or more) of bad habits having been built.
* This is usually the point where someone might make an immediate action, but I believe when you are raised in this manner (as opposed to acquiring bad habits) you will naturally fail to maintain them.
_____
> *This is a footnote from the CMV moderators. We'd like to remind you of a couple of things. Firstly, please* ***[read through our rules](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules)***. *If you see a comment that has broken one, it is more effective to report it than downvote it. Speaking of which,* ***[downvotes don't change views](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/guidelines#wiki_upvoting.2Fdownvoting)****! Any questions or concerns? Feel free to* ***[message us](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/changemyview)***. *Happy CMVing!*
|
> Children are meant to be instilled with good habits early on in their life. They are eager to learn, often by example, and easily impressionable.
While it's true that children that come from households with good parents statistically have better study/hygiene habits than children who do not, you have to realize it's not the end all be all.
Meeting the right friends at school makes a huge impact on your social skills/study skills/hygiene and generally how your carry yourself.
> If these habits are not instilled, or worse yet replaced with bad habits, it may be impossible to make change without severe outside influence (military training/other forced internment)
It's not impossible to change a bad habit. It's literally a personal choice. You can't blame other people or the environment for your own short comings. Because pointing fingers at factors that aren't in your control doesn't get you anywhere.
It's up to you in how you value certain skills and habits if it's worthwhile enough for you to invest time improving and/or changing yourself for the better. No one in this entire universe can force you to do that. It's your choice.
> If there were any reasonable way for an individual to correct these deficiencies, it is the nature of the general public to either profit from it or share it. One of the other almost universally happens.
And whats wrong about this? Help isn't always free and if you want to change something about yourself you have to be willing to make a sacrifice to do so.
If a goal can be reached without any effort, then it's not really a worthwhile goal anyway because it's too easy. You aren't going to suddenly pick up good hygiene/study skills overnight. It's a process. One step at a time.
> The general instruction is to just do it. I imagine this works for someone that just needs the inspiration to do the right thing, **but doesn't seem appropriate for 10-20 years (or more) of bad habits having been built.**
That's where you're wrong. If you're a heavy drug addict or alcoholic, you aren't dropping that addiction by a flick of a wrist or simply by being motivated. Being motivated isn't good enough. You actually have to want to do it. It's all about taking the first few steps to get your feet in the water. The rest comes easily.
> This is usually the point where someone might make an immediate action, but I believe when you are raised in this manner (as opposed to acquiring bad habits) you will naturally fail to maintain them.
This is where I agree. But this isn't because you're conditioned to naturally fail or make bad habits, but because you actively choose to keep making poor choices or prevent yourself from getting out of your comfort zone.
----------------------------------
**Listen. I'm pretty sure you didn't come to this sub-reddit because you actually think that because you've never been pressured to make study habits or work on personal hygiene is someone else's or something else's fault.**
I'm pretty sure at some level you know its your fault that you have bad habits, and you're just looking for someone else or something else to take the blame for your poor life decisions in certain areas.
You know why I believe this? Because this was me back in highschool. Horrible hygiene, terrible study habits and horribly in-personable. But I'll be damned if I blamed my parents, my friends, my school or that hot chick in grade 9 who turned me down because she thought I was a loser.
**My martial arts teacher always tells me that you can't and you shouldn't get frustrated or angry on things that are out of your control. In this case your childhood environment. Instead work on what IS under your control and go from there.**
I didn't sugar coat anything because I believe an honest CMV deserves an honest CMV reply.
I almost get the feeling you came here to try and run away from what you know you have to do and thought that maybe there was some magical way you could turn yourself overnight.
**You know that's bullshit.**
It's a process. Take one step at a time. Because believe me, the first step is always the hardest.
You don't take a shower every day? okay. Every other day. And work your way into everyday. Set a time. Evening? Morning?
You don't brush your teeth everyday? Okay. Try every morning before you go to work. Just once a day or once every other day if it's really going to kill you.
What you need to understand ultimately is that, you don't need to take 5 steps to start changing yourself. One will get the ball rolling. But you need to understand it's not enough. First you start off small and you work your way up.
I believe you're strong enough to do this on your own, but if you need your wife/significant other or other family/friends to help you take the baby steps. Ask them. But don't ask them if you don't have the fucking balls to actually do what you set out to do. Seriously consider what you want to do first.
|
while i can understand your reasoning i can disagree
As the common phrase, old habits die hard, suggest it can be extremly diffuclt and tiresome to break habits but speaking from personal experience the habits instilled in you at a young age are reverse able its important to set reasonable goals and work your way up to greater habits maybe dont do anything with hygiene every day but every other day and then make then transition. or instead of saying im going to push aside this much time any go over every thing for the test say this is when im going to have fun and do whatever and this time i dont want nor need to do anything so i studie . you should have small bursts of say 20 minutes of study several times over a longer period of time. im kind of bad at explaining this so i recommend watching cgp greys video 7 ways to maximize misery to get the set reasonable goal point across it also has several stuff thats helpful but not habit related
i hope this maybe helps best of luck
also dude brush your teeth like right now you could get a cavity
|
6qlmnn
|
CMV: I believe that the way you are raised can have long-lasting negative repercussions, that may not be reversible.
|
I have created this post specifically for myself and will provide personal context (as it does influence my view.) I will also provide a generalized version for discussion.
###Personal Context
>I was raised with the freedom to never have to do homework. I now have no study habits as a young adult, and cannot focus on a book or written material. I was never raised with concern to my hygeine, and as a young adult I still do not brush my teeth, and sometimes do not shower. I was raised by a man that never did anything but sit at a computer all day. Though I loved being outside as a child, here I sit.
>Even though I maintain awareness of my failures, I have yet to make dedicated change on any of them. The hardest part of anything is maintaining a daily routine. I even thought seeking outside help would work, but my significant other seems to have 'lowered' to my level and does not really force me to do anything.
> I really looked for an outside opinion. Therapy, psychiatric help, medication, books. I own a wealth of books intended to fix laziness/procrastination, or individual habits.
##Generalized points of my current view:
* Children are meant to be instilled with good habits early on in their life. They are eager to learn, often by example, and easily impressionable.
* If these habits are not instilled, or worse yet replaced with bad habits, it may be impossible to make change without severe outside influence (military training/other forced internment)
* If there were any reasonable way for an individual to correct these deficiencies, it is the nature of the general public to either *profit from it* or *share it.* One of the other almost universally happens.
* The general instruction is to just **do it.** I imagine this works for someone that just needs the inspiration to do the right thing, but doesn't seem appropriate for 10-20 years (or more) of bad habits having been built.
* This is usually the point where someone might make an immediate action, but I believe when you are raised in this manner (as opposed to acquiring bad habits) you will naturally fail to maintain them.
_____
> *This is a footnote from the CMV moderators. We'd like to remind you of a couple of things. Firstly, please* ***[read through our rules](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules)***. *If you see a comment that has broken one, it is more effective to report it than downvote it. Speaking of which,* ***[downvotes don't change views](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/guidelines#wiki_upvoting.2Fdownvoting)****! Any questions or concerns? Feel free to* ***[message us](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/changemyview)***. *Happy CMVing!*
| 1,501,468,536
|
ThePathLaid
|
dkya3pr
|
dky9wp0
| 18
| 2
|
CMV: There is literally no point in maintaining closed borders other than trying to feel special/nationalist
1. Immigrants don't take jobs, they compete with workers in that market for jobs, and if they can do it better/cheaper/more efficiently than everybody within your home country, why is that an issue? They simply do it better than you. An argument against this is essentially saying "I can't do work as effectively as this person, therefore he needs to stay out of my country".
2.When they send money away from the country they work in, that money doesn't just disappear, it goes to people who are in more dire situations than the country they migrated to. This amounts to foreign aid on a local level. It amounts to helping economies that needs the help. Hell, it might even mean we could lower foreign aid that goes to either massive organisations that make profit off donations, or rather corrupt governments in poorer regions that wouldn't give the money to the people. But money would instead be going directly to families in the regions.
3. They are not lazy, in fact migrants, of ALL kinds and nationalities, measurably set up more businesses ([warning, download only file from Kauffman](http://www.kauffman.org/~/media/kauffman_org/research%20reports%20and%20covers/2015/05/kauffman_index_startup_activity_national_trends_2015.pdf)) than white/natives per head. That makes us the lazy and complacent ones. In addition, most studies I've seen show that second generation immigrants are perfectly in line with their native counterparts in nearly [every way](http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/02/07/second-generation-americans/), from income to poverty to crime to college graduation (in America). In fact poverty rates seem to actually be slightly lower in 2nd gen immigrants.
4. Welfare. Maybe immigrants do use more welfare, I've seen some studies where they use less though, which is enough to balance the books. Even so, the purpose of welfare is to help those worse off, which would be a lot of the world. Why should you feel more kinship for a poor white man over a poor Mexican, or African, or an anywhere-man?
5. Culture. What even is this argument? How does the existence of differently coloured people within certain arbitrary borders stop the rest of us from making art of any form? From doing science? If people think our race is so advanced in comparison to everybody else, how about they maintain their own perfectly pure culture and see how long it takes for them to somehow become more technologically advanced than everyone else, when everyone is given an equal start, along with the historical domination over everywhere else to begin with.
Borders exist to maintain a status quo on both sides. It exists to paper over poverty because we feel more kinship with people who look similar to us. It ignores the problem across the globe of people being in dire situations. Surely if we can do anything to alleviate that, we should. Anything else I essentially see as superiority, which it is.
If you're a supporter of freedom, why should borders be any different? Why should you be entitled to freedoms that other people are raised outside of?
Globally open borders would ensure that the most people get to the right places to get the right help. It ensures we don't purposefully ignore the issues that exist outside of our own borders. It ensures everybody is given a somewhat equal opportunity, not just those who happened to be born into the home of a white person, or a European/American/First-worlder.
|
> Culture. What even is this argument? How does the existence of differently coloured people within certain arbitrary borders stop the rest of us from making art of any form?
I do not understand the connection you draw between cultures and skin color.
What **I** understand by culture is that some culture think that women not being covered in public should be harassed, and that gays and unbelievers in some imaginary god should be killed. Does it comes as a surprise that I'd rather not have them in my neighborhood ?
Also, some cultures think that one should have as many children as possible. A finite piece of the world to crowd would give them faster feedback wrt sustainability of such beliefs, for the greater good of all inhabitants (humans and otherwise) of this planet.
|
> There are a finite number of jobs and when someone takes one of them there are less jobs. If there are 100 available jobs and there are 200 people looking for jobs with 100 of them being legal citizens (immigrants included) and 100 being illegal immigrants (regardless of skin color) and say 35 of the illegals get the jobs that means that 35 legal citizens don't have those jobs.
The issue is far more complex than that. Immigrants both create jobs and occupy them; whether they do more of one or the other depends on the immigrant. There is not a finite supply of jobs because increasing the population increases aggregate demand for labor.
|
6xi3ey
|
CMV: There is literally no point in maintaining closed borders other than trying to feel special/nationalist
|
1. Immigrants don't take jobs, they compete with workers in that market for jobs, and if they can do it better/cheaper/more efficiently than everybody within your home country, why is that an issue? They simply do it better than you. An argument against this is essentially saying "I can't do work as effectively as this person, therefore he needs to stay out of my country".
2.When they send money away from the country they work in, that money doesn't just disappear, it goes to people who are in more dire situations than the country they migrated to. This amounts to foreign aid on a local level. It amounts to helping economies that needs the help. Hell, it might even mean we could lower foreign aid that goes to either massive organisations that make profit off donations, or rather corrupt governments in poorer regions that wouldn't give the money to the people. But money would instead be going directly to families in the regions.
3. They are not lazy, in fact migrants, of ALL kinds and nationalities, measurably set up more businesses ([warning, download only file from Kauffman](http://www.kauffman.org/~/media/kauffman_org/research%20reports%20and%20covers/2015/05/kauffman_index_startup_activity_national_trends_2015.pdf)) than white/natives per head. That makes us the lazy and complacent ones. In addition, most studies I've seen show that second generation immigrants are perfectly in line with their native counterparts in nearly [every way](http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/02/07/second-generation-americans/), from income to poverty to crime to college graduation (in America). In fact poverty rates seem to actually be slightly lower in 2nd gen immigrants.
4. Welfare. Maybe immigrants do use more welfare, I've seen some studies where they use less though, which is enough to balance the books. Even so, the purpose of welfare is to help those worse off, which would be a lot of the world. Why should you feel more kinship for a poor white man over a poor Mexican, or African, or an anywhere-man?
5. Culture. What even is this argument? How does the existence of differently coloured people within certain arbitrary borders stop the rest of us from making art of any form? From doing science? If people think our race is so advanced in comparison to everybody else, how about they maintain their own perfectly pure culture and see how long it takes for them to somehow become more technologically advanced than everyone else, when everyone is given an equal start, along with the historical domination over everywhere else to begin with.
Borders exist to maintain a status quo on both sides. It exists to paper over poverty because we feel more kinship with people who look similar to us. It ignores the problem across the globe of people being in dire situations. Surely if we can do anything to alleviate that, we should. Anything else I essentially see as superiority, which it is.
If you're a supporter of freedom, why should borders be any different? Why should you be entitled to freedoms that other people are raised outside of?
Globally open borders would ensure that the most people get to the right places to get the right help. It ensures we don't purposefully ignore the issues that exist outside of our own borders. It ensures everybody is given a somewhat equal opportunity, not just those who happened to be born into the home of a white person, or a European/American/First-worlder.
| 1,504,306,114
|
adamd22
|
dmgpv9u
|
dmg5kjh
| 3
| -1
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
Perception is reality. The material world is a story you tell yourself within your own consciousness. The material world likely is indifferent to you, but that's not how the universe manifests itself in reality. It manifests itself as direct experience within your own psychology. You can never experience an amoral world, or an uncaring world, because you are always stuck within yourself: a moral, caring being.
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Problems and pain aren’t evidence there is no God. How much problems and pain might God have prevented and we don’t know it?
I have adult children. I don’t solve all their problems for them. If I did, I wouldn’t be doing them any *real* favors. If I’m wise enough to know that, surely God is far more wise and knows what’s too much.
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94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3mq9o0
|
e3lwfwp
| 2
| 1
|
CMV: America is woefully unprepared for a major disaster
Examples include an invasion by a foreign country, civil war, nuclear attack, running out of fossil fuels, EMP blast, severe worldwide drought, asteroid strike or a massive volcanic eruption like the entirety of Yellowstone national park erupting.
Surviving the event itself will be easier than surviving the days, weeks, months and years afterward.
If all things electric shutdown because of an EMP blast including semi trucks, there goes 99% of the food supply for major cities. If the EMP goes off in the winter, many northern cities will see millions of people freeze to death in the cold. So, now everyone rushes to the supermarket to raid for food and those are scenes of major bloodbath and murders. Even if you have food and water storage, you may be dozens of miles away from land that can produce food through fishing, hunting or farming in the long term and that journey into the countryside may be more risky than what it is worth
At this point, horse drawn carriages will become a necessity and we don't have too much of those right now.
Meanwhile, the Amish are not as severely effected by this disaster as they are MUCH more self reliant than the average American. It might be a great idea for the federal government to consult with the Amish on an American disaster plan.
The beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic we saw people fist fighting over toilet paper... imagine when people start fighting over food...
|
Hey, okay, I agree with a lot of what you said but I think you underestimate the power of one trillion dollars of defense spending. I'm not one of those guys, but we can probably take anyone in combat at any time. The rest of anything else, though. Yeah-we screwed.
|
The Amish are like 300k people mostly in or around 3 states.
A nuclear attack could wipe most of them out. I'm not sure in what sense they are "prepared" unless being relatively oblivious to the outside world is "prepared".
Granted, probably nobody would bother nuking the Amish. However, the Amish also would be complete pushovers that likely wouldn't exist without being situated in a powerful first world country protecting them.
America is certainly among the least well ordered of first world countries and has severe political problems. However, calling it woefully unprepared relative to the Amish is kind of absurd.
Major disasters are also often something you can't be prepared for aside from having active institutions and technologies anticipating them. The Amish basically don't have this. America does, even if they're janky and corrupt such as they are.
|
mvnetg
|
CMV: America is woefully unprepared for a major disaster
|
Examples include an invasion by a foreign country, civil war, nuclear attack, running out of fossil fuels, EMP blast, severe worldwide drought, asteroid strike or a massive volcanic eruption like the entirety of Yellowstone national park erupting.
Surviving the event itself will be easier than surviving the days, weeks, months and years afterward.
If all things electric shutdown because of an EMP blast including semi trucks, there goes 99% of the food supply for major cities. If the EMP goes off in the winter, many northern cities will see millions of people freeze to death in the cold. So, now everyone rushes to the supermarket to raid for food and those are scenes of major bloodbath and murders. Even if you have food and water storage, you may be dozens of miles away from land that can produce food through fishing, hunting or farming in the long term and that journey into the countryside may be more risky than what it is worth
At this point, horse drawn carriages will become a necessity and we don't have too much of those right now.
Meanwhile, the Amish are not as severely effected by this disaster as they are MUCH more self reliant than the average American. It might be a great idea for the federal government to consult with the Amish on an American disaster plan.
The beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic we saw people fist fighting over toilet paper... imagine when people start fighting over food...
| 1,619,033,425
|
overhardeggs
|
gvczw1q
|
gvczifp
| 3
| 0
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
I'm not really advocating this for everybody but if it's ever been on your mind to explore something "other" or spirtual in nature I suggest looking into psychedelics.
But for now ask yourself this. Why does anything exist at all? It takes energy, effort, plan, form. It's so much easier for there no be absolutely nothing at all and yet there is existance. And the only way to know anything exists at all is to be a conscious entity. To have consciousness and self awareness.
You are consciousness, you are existence. And all this intelligence and form is contained in a system. All that you are is only allowed by the rules of the system itself (the universe). So in a sense the universe is a higher order of intelligence, for it creates all intelligence possible.
|
First off, the existence of God will not change yours or anyone's life in a major way. We will never really know how God works (if it exists in any way). For example, who's to say God didn't cause the Big Bang and is just being hands-off and letting life happen? "Fixing" the suffering of 7 billion people doesn't really make sense given that we all have free will. Technically, there is nothing stopping anyone from killing/assaulting/raping/robbing other people. God may very well exist, but it s/he cannot control the actions of other people. We would have no purpose to exist in the first place if God controlled everyone, and would really ruin all the effort put in to creating the universe.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3mwgdl
|
e3mldpv
| 2
| 1
|
CMV: America is woefully unprepared for a major disaster
Examples include an invasion by a foreign country, civil war, nuclear attack, running out of fossil fuels, EMP blast, severe worldwide drought, asteroid strike or a massive volcanic eruption like the entirety of Yellowstone national park erupting.
Surviving the event itself will be easier than surviving the days, weeks, months and years afterward.
If all things electric shutdown because of an EMP blast including semi trucks, there goes 99% of the food supply for major cities. If the EMP goes off in the winter, many northern cities will see millions of people freeze to death in the cold. So, now everyone rushes to the supermarket to raid for food and those are scenes of major bloodbath and murders. Even if you have food and water storage, you may be dozens of miles away from land that can produce food through fishing, hunting or farming in the long term and that journey into the countryside may be more risky than what it is worth
At this point, horse drawn carriages will become a necessity and we don't have too much of those right now.
Meanwhile, the Amish are not as severely effected by this disaster as they are MUCH more self reliant than the average American. It might be a great idea for the federal government to consult with the Amish on an American disaster plan.
The beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic we saw people fist fighting over toilet paper... imagine when people start fighting over food...
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In the sense that no country on the planet is prepared for disasters on a scale you're suggesting, then yes the USA isn't prepared, but then it would be a pointless statement. However, with its massive military and food production, it would probably do better than most.
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EMP blasts aren't exactly high on the list of likely major disasters. Focusing on a few technology related disasters that the Amish are relatively less affected by due to being luddites doesn't show how America is unprepared whether in relative terms or not.
|
mvnetg
|
CMV: America is woefully unprepared for a major disaster
|
Examples include an invasion by a foreign country, civil war, nuclear attack, running out of fossil fuels, EMP blast, severe worldwide drought, asteroid strike or a massive volcanic eruption like the entirety of Yellowstone national park erupting.
Surviving the event itself will be easier than surviving the days, weeks, months and years afterward.
If all things electric shutdown because of an EMP blast including semi trucks, there goes 99% of the food supply for major cities. If the EMP goes off in the winter, many northern cities will see millions of people freeze to death in the cold. So, now everyone rushes to the supermarket to raid for food and those are scenes of major bloodbath and murders. Even if you have food and water storage, you may be dozens of miles away from land that can produce food through fishing, hunting or farming in the long term and that journey into the countryside may be more risky than what it is worth
At this point, horse drawn carriages will become a necessity and we don't have too much of those right now.
Meanwhile, the Amish are not as severely effected by this disaster as they are MUCH more self reliant than the average American. It might be a great idea for the federal government to consult with the Amish on an American disaster plan.
The beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic we saw people fist fighting over toilet paper... imagine when people start fighting over food...
| 1,619,033,425
|
overhardeggs
|
gvd1i71
|
gvd0b27
| 11
| 2
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
We're all agnostic. There may be a God or there may not be. No one knows, or as Dawkin's stated once that its more likely we're in a highly complex computer simulation, just a comparison to how likely the sky-crane god may be. Don't listen to all that God talk, it may provide some comfort, but the best religion can do is offer a real support group of actual people (the church congregation). What we know is that we exist. Or at least we think we exist and make decisions and those decisions are a realization of consciousness and physical determinism. That all being said, the universe does care about suffering, because the people in the universe are the universe. The people in your life are your universe. They care if you suffer, and you care if they suffer. There's a philosophical underpinning to suffering leading to acknowledgement of conscious life. Life is suffering. Its how you know you are alive.
But its also a scale, and not quite linear by my estimation. Suffering compounds and exacerbates over time when left unmitigated. Your ice cream trip today was an exercise in reducing suffering. The people in this subreddit have done a part in reducing your suffering because they care. We, the universe, don't wish for you to suffer. So, as social animals, we empathize and maybe realize some compassion for your plight. I'd like to think this could be realized on a grandiose scale but we are all battling each other for a slice of the pie. But hope exists because of our ability to exercise the reduction of suffering. We should all be so motivated to delineate suffering from our lives and the lives of others.
In that sense, we all lift each other up when we care for each other. It's our responsibility as citizens of the world to reduce the suffering of others as that leads to the reduction of our own suffering. I hope you find the help you need. I wish I could offer more than just well wishes and condolences and maybe a different reference point for looking at reality. In a million years, will these moments matter? Of course, because we travel this path to the future together, and what we do along the way determines that future. I hope yours is bright with life and love.
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Let me try to give you another perspective.
First, the concept of God that you are fighting against, is a shadow of the reality, not the reality, religion is like the explanation of where do babies come from, to children, since they can't comprehend the complex reality, we talk to then using simplifications and symbolism. So instead of sex, we get birds carrying the children.
So let me break the baby talk to you and give my definition of god, that goes beyond religion and beyond atheism, there you will find a few people that call themselves pantheists.
In the pantheistic belief, god is the universe, God is everyone, we created the universe to experience the universe.
Now that is a hard pill to swallow, and for the ego entrapped mind, it is impossible, but if you can use your imagination, it all becomes really simple and obvious.
Now let's take another look at the suffering that you are referring to.
Since God is us, every child that starves is a god, but also everyone that goes by that child and never bother to help, they are God also.
Suffering is a symptom of the ignorance of our identity when we see ourselves as me and others as others, you are creating the suffering that you will at the same time experience.
But that is ok, there is no death, your wife, and all life is one.
We suffer to learn to care, we cant make people immortal, but we can give then love for the time that they are here.
And before you think this is the words of someone that never encountered suffering, my father died when I was 6 and my mother when I was 13. I didn't starve, but I remember thinking that no one really wanted me, they were encumbered by me and my younger brother. I had a lot of anger, and I blamed a god I didn't believe for what happened to me, but then I got it.
You are suffering because people are complacent to your suffering, no one cares, (a few do) but that is on us, we are the ones that are hurting, and we are the ones letting the hurt happen. We don't help others, and they don't help us.
Is a collective sin, but we are getting better, some of us are starting to understand that the suffering of one, is the suffering of us all. After a breaking point, there will be a new world.
Just like in westworld, we need to suffer in order to become human. Until then, we are little more than talking animals.
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94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3n2b15
|
e3lspr7
| 2
| 0
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
Human beings are part of this universe. You could even say we are (at least one) part of the universe that has become self aware. Human beings may be many things (irrational, selfish) , but we are not indifferent. I can't speak for whether this is a god, nor can I speak for the rest of the universe, but I believe humanity is trying to reduce suffering. On occasion we even succeed.
|
Sorry, u/obey_prezzzz – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5:
> **Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation**.
Comments that are only links, jokes or "written upvotes" will be removed. Humor and affirmations of agreement can be contained within more substantial comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_5).
If you would like to appeal, [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+5+Appeal+obey_prezzzz&message=obey_prezzzz+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/94k9lf/-/e3lmx8q/\)+because...).
|
94k9lf
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CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
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joshingkatie
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e3lut65
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e3lthga
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CMV: US Senators and Representatives should receive a salary which at minimum places them in the top 1% of earners nationally.
Actually, I would advocate for a salary much higher. Currently, congresspeople earn about $174k, with roughly $65k retirement pension. Top 1% national earner threshold is $389k.
I propose to pay members of Congress a multimillion dollar salary, paired with a restrictive set of future earnings regulations (e.g. former Senators are not allowed to serve as paid advisers to private firms for a period of 10 years after serving office).
I have a number of justifications for this view:
1. Being a member of congress is a tremendously important job, we should attract the best and brightest. This is obvious. We shouldn’t require benevolent financial sacrifice from what should be the most talented group of Americans. Tech workers in Silicon Valley regularly approach $174k in salary; I think we can objectively agree that US Congressman is a more important job, and therefore should be compensated accordingly.
2. It’s naive to think that most US Congressman are living off their government salaries alone. This salary, which I argue is modest, encourages a culture of what amounts to legalized bribery. This point should not need further clarification but I’m happy to if necessary.
Please, change my view!
[Edit] I have had my view modified:
To be clear, my goal is to attract the most talented members of our society (America) to run for congress. I'm talking about the cream of the crop, the intellectual outliers.
It has been pointed out to me that these individuals have likely already achieved their financial goals, or they have no financial goals. Therefore, an exorbitant salary is a non-factor for this person.
I do stand firm on my claim that a congressman deserves a salary near the top 1% of all earners, while noting that our nation's 0-100% income spread should not be nearly as wide as it is. I hold this 1% earnings view because I believe that being a congressman is an excruciatingly difficult and demanding job, if done well. If the congressman is doing his/her job well, he/she simply deserves an elite salary. Exorbitant no, but near the top 1%, yes. I also maintain my view that there should be much more strict rules in place regarding allowed forms of income after public service.
I have also noted that campaign finance reform is a more important issue than the one that I have raised. Lastly, I have noted that it should be much easier to vote an incumbent out of office (thus losing their nice salary, while keeping a modest pension).
Thank you for the discussion!
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Most of the brilliant types of people you are seeking to replace our current standard for congress members won’t be swayed by extra money. The simple reality is that many don’t want to have their personal lives and histories dragged through the mud while under a microscope. Most brilliant, innovative and ambitious individuals will never lack money, and the ones that do probably aren’t motivated by it.
A more elegant solution to a very real problem is simple term limits, along with a ban on campaign donations. I believe it would be best to have publicly funded campaigns, which would drastically reduce the amount of influence large donors wield. Lastly, your suggestion of restrictions on jobs after leaving office is a great one. I would go one step further and ban them from serving in any type of boardroom, finance (congressional members should be banned from investing period, outside of standard retirement funds due to their ability to inside trade) or lobbyist groups.
The choice to be a public servant should be just that, one of grace and servitude. It’s a public service, one only those who are both capable and selfless should pursue.
I understand this isn’t a traditional counter to your argument but thought it best to try and achieve the same outcome you desire through different means.
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I don't care if they can outright buy a $1,000,000 house in the richest part of the country. 174k is more than enough to survive and thrive. Generally these people are already wealthy anyways.
The corruption isn't because they aren't wealthy enough. The reason they are so corrupt is that they have to seek campaign donations from rich donors in order to continue getting reelected. After that they are expected to push for benefits for their donors in order to receive donations again next time.
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/277462-60-minutes-fundraising-demands-turning-lawmakers-into
>The House member told "60 Minutes" he sat behind closed doors with party leadership, where he was told he had six months to raise $2 million.
>"Your job, new member of Congress, is to raise $18,000 a day. Your first responsibility is to make sure you hit $18,000 a day," he said he was told.
>To do so, he said, members of Congress are given lists of names and scripts. Because members aren't allowed to fundraise on Capitol grounds, the campaign arms of the parties have setup call bank headquarters near the Capitol, where members can duck in to to spend a few hours on the phone.
I agree that the job is very important but the current system does not reflect that. Congresspeople spend just as much time campaigning for money as they do actually legislating.
They aren't even required to show up if they don't think they will get unseated for it.
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/marco_rubio/412491
>From Jan 2011 to Aug 2018, Marco Rubio missed 253 of 2,151 roll call votes, which is 11.8%.
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94mnt9
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CMV: US Senators and Representatives should receive a salary which at minimum places them in the top 1% of earners nationally.
|
Actually, I would advocate for a salary much higher. Currently, congresspeople earn about $174k, with roughly $65k retirement pension. Top 1% national earner threshold is $389k.
I propose to pay members of Congress a multimillion dollar salary, paired with a restrictive set of future earnings regulations (e.g. former Senators are not allowed to serve as paid advisers to private firms for a period of 10 years after serving office).
I have a number of justifications for this view:
1. Being a member of congress is a tremendously important job, we should attract the best and brightest. This is obvious. We shouldn’t require benevolent financial sacrifice from what should be the most talented group of Americans. Tech workers in Silicon Valley regularly approach $174k in salary; I think we can objectively agree that US Congressman is a more important job, and therefore should be compensated accordingly.
2. It’s naive to think that most US Congressman are living off their government salaries alone. This salary, which I argue is modest, encourages a culture of what amounts to legalized bribery. This point should not need further clarification but I’m happy to if necessary.
Please, change my view!
[Edit] I have had my view modified:
To be clear, my goal is to attract the most talented members of our society (America) to run for congress. I'm talking about the cream of the crop, the intellectual outliers.
It has been pointed out to me that these individuals have likely already achieved their financial goals, or they have no financial goals. Therefore, an exorbitant salary is a non-factor for this person.
I do stand firm on my claim that a congressman deserves a salary near the top 1% of all earners, while noting that our nation's 0-100% income spread should not be nearly as wide as it is. I hold this 1% earnings view because I believe that being a congressman is an excruciatingly difficult and demanding job, if done well. If the congressman is doing his/her job well, he/she simply deserves an elite salary. Exorbitant no, but near the top 1%, yes. I also maintain my view that there should be much more strict rules in place regarding allowed forms of income after public service.
I have also noted that campaign finance reform is a more important issue than the one that I have raised. Lastly, I have noted that it should be much easier to vote an incumbent out of office (thus losing their nice salary, while keeping a modest pension).
Thank you for the discussion!
| 1,533,418,587
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cricketsymphony
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e3mgtzz
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e3m97kd
| 3
| 1
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CMV: US Senators and Representatives should receive a salary which at minimum places them in the top 1% of earners nationally.
Actually, I would advocate for a salary much higher. Currently, congresspeople earn about $174k, with roughly $65k retirement pension. Top 1% national earner threshold is $389k.
I propose to pay members of Congress a multimillion dollar salary, paired with a restrictive set of future earnings regulations (e.g. former Senators are not allowed to serve as paid advisers to private firms for a period of 10 years after serving office).
I have a number of justifications for this view:
1. Being a member of congress is a tremendously important job, we should attract the best and brightest. This is obvious. We shouldn’t require benevolent financial sacrifice from what should be the most talented group of Americans. Tech workers in Silicon Valley regularly approach $174k in salary; I think we can objectively agree that US Congressman is a more important job, and therefore should be compensated accordingly.
2. It’s naive to think that most US Congressman are living off their government salaries alone. This salary, which I argue is modest, encourages a culture of what amounts to legalized bribery. This point should not need further clarification but I’m happy to if necessary.
Please, change my view!
[Edit] I have had my view modified:
To be clear, my goal is to attract the most talented members of our society (America) to run for congress. I'm talking about the cream of the crop, the intellectual outliers.
It has been pointed out to me that these individuals have likely already achieved their financial goals, or they have no financial goals. Therefore, an exorbitant salary is a non-factor for this person.
I do stand firm on my claim that a congressman deserves a salary near the top 1% of all earners, while noting that our nation's 0-100% income spread should not be nearly as wide as it is. I hold this 1% earnings view because I believe that being a congressman is an excruciatingly difficult and demanding job, if done well. If the congressman is doing his/her job well, he/she simply deserves an elite salary. Exorbitant no, but near the top 1%, yes. I also maintain my view that there should be much more strict rules in place regarding allowed forms of income after public service.
I have also noted that campaign finance reform is a more important issue than the one that I have raised. Lastly, I have noted that it should be much easier to vote an incumbent out of office (thus losing their nice salary, while keeping a modest pension).
Thank you for the discussion!
|
> We shouldn’t require benevolent financial sacrifice from what should be the most talented group of Americans.
True! But the mechanism isn't to pay elected representatives a disgusting amount of money. The mechanism ought to be to prevent anyone from earning that much.
> Tech workers in Silicon Valley regularly approach $174k in salary
As someone who's tech-adjacent in Silicon Valley, this represents a miserable failing of our society.
> It’s naive to think that most US Congressman are living off their government salaries alone. This salary, which I argue is modest, encourages a culture of what amounts to legalized bribery.
If you're not satisfied with $174k, which is SIX TIMES the median individual income in the country, then you won't be satisfied with $389k. It's absolutely true that congresspersons accept lavish bribes from lobbyists constantly and mysteriously earn vastly more than their salary every year. Paying them more does not cure their corruption: that is an incredibly indirect solution to a grievous problem. Destroy the corruption at the roots; if you accept a gift while in office, or have this type of improper financial relationship, then your salary for your entire time of service is retroactively forfeit, done.
Finally, the central issue here is that elected representatives are motivated only to serve the cause of capital. This will be true if they are bribed by lobbyists and it will be true if they are made rich by salaries. The possession of large amounts of money, *in and of itself*, will twist and distort your understanding of the world and your moral compass. At least when politicians are accepting corporate bribes, you understand exactly who owns them.
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I don't care if they can outright buy a $1,000,000 house in the richest part of the country. 174k is more than enough to survive and thrive. Generally these people are already wealthy anyways.
The corruption isn't because they aren't wealthy enough. The reason they are so corrupt is that they have to seek campaign donations from rich donors in order to continue getting reelected. After that they are expected to push for benefits for their donors in order to receive donations again next time.
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/277462-60-minutes-fundraising-demands-turning-lawmakers-into
>The House member told "60 Minutes" he sat behind closed doors with party leadership, where he was told he had six months to raise $2 million.
>"Your job, new member of Congress, is to raise $18,000 a day. Your first responsibility is to make sure you hit $18,000 a day," he said he was told.
>To do so, he said, members of Congress are given lists of names and scripts. Because members aren't allowed to fundraise on Capitol grounds, the campaign arms of the parties have setup call bank headquarters near the Capitol, where members can duck in to to spend a few hours on the phone.
I agree that the job is very important but the current system does not reflect that. Congresspeople spend just as much time campaigning for money as they do actually legislating.
They aren't even required to show up if they don't think they will get unseated for it.
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/marco_rubio/412491
>From Jan 2011 to Aug 2018, Marco Rubio missed 253 of 2,151 roll call votes, which is 11.8%.
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94mnt9
|
CMV: US Senators and Representatives should receive a salary which at minimum places them in the top 1% of earners nationally.
|
Actually, I would advocate for a salary much higher. Currently, congresspeople earn about $174k, with roughly $65k retirement pension. Top 1% national earner threshold is $389k.
I propose to pay members of Congress a multimillion dollar salary, paired with a restrictive set of future earnings regulations (e.g. former Senators are not allowed to serve as paid advisers to private firms for a period of 10 years after serving office).
I have a number of justifications for this view:
1. Being a member of congress is a tremendously important job, we should attract the best and brightest. This is obvious. We shouldn’t require benevolent financial sacrifice from what should be the most talented group of Americans. Tech workers in Silicon Valley regularly approach $174k in salary; I think we can objectively agree that US Congressman is a more important job, and therefore should be compensated accordingly.
2. It’s naive to think that most US Congressman are living off their government salaries alone. This salary, which I argue is modest, encourages a culture of what amounts to legalized bribery. This point should not need further clarification but I’m happy to if necessary.
Please, change my view!
[Edit] I have had my view modified:
To be clear, my goal is to attract the most talented members of our society (America) to run for congress. I'm talking about the cream of the crop, the intellectual outliers.
It has been pointed out to me that these individuals have likely already achieved their financial goals, or they have no financial goals. Therefore, an exorbitant salary is a non-factor for this person.
I do stand firm on my claim that a congressman deserves a salary near the top 1% of all earners, while noting that our nation's 0-100% income spread should not be nearly as wide as it is. I hold this 1% earnings view because I believe that being a congressman is an excruciatingly difficult and demanding job, if done well. If the congressman is doing his/her job well, he/she simply deserves an elite salary. Exorbitant no, but near the top 1%, yes. I also maintain my view that there should be much more strict rules in place regarding allowed forms of income after public service.
I have also noted that campaign finance reform is a more important issue than the one that I have raised. Lastly, I have noted that it should be much easier to vote an incumbent out of office (thus losing their nice salary, while keeping a modest pension).
Thank you for the discussion!
| 1,533,418,587
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cricketsymphony
|
e3mb2kw
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e3m97kd
| 3
| 1
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
This is the best post I’ve seen on reddit, and perfectly sums up my view of the universe.
|
Well since Trump is widely hated and mocked around the world (and for obviously good reason), I wouldn't be surprised.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3na3gk
|
e3luje3
| 2
| 0
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
Hello there. You sound like one of my closest friends, also a Christian (and like you doesn't buy into prosperity.) He doesn't know I am atheist, I keep it from him because he would be very concerned and possibly hurt by the truth. Likewise, I don't want to hurt you. I value your perspective and I think your insights are a good ambassador of your faith.
**Δ** Basically, you're advocating for selflessness and that does hold appeal with me. The self (personal identity) could very well be an illusion even.
|
Evolution isn’t about purpose, it’s more about the effect of accidents on successful reproduction. It’s reasonable to suggest that the collection of accidents that led to the existence of sadness created a situation that helped signal to the larger community that support was needed, thereby helping sad people recover and eventually increase their odds of reproducing. But that doesn’t imply that it’s a designed system that should work consistently.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3lrkbi
|
e3lp1a9
| 72
| 59
|
CMV: America is woefully unprepared for a major disaster
Examples include an invasion by a foreign country, civil war, nuclear attack, running out of fossil fuels, EMP blast, severe worldwide drought, asteroid strike or a massive volcanic eruption like the entirety of Yellowstone national park erupting.
Surviving the event itself will be easier than surviving the days, weeks, months and years afterward.
If all things electric shutdown because of an EMP blast including semi trucks, there goes 99% of the food supply for major cities. If the EMP goes off in the winter, many northern cities will see millions of people freeze to death in the cold. So, now everyone rushes to the supermarket to raid for food and those are scenes of major bloodbath and murders. Even if you have food and water storage, you may be dozens of miles away from land that can produce food through fishing, hunting or farming in the long term and that journey into the countryside may be more risky than what it is worth
At this point, horse drawn carriages will become a necessity and we don't have too much of those right now.
Meanwhile, the Amish are not as severely effected by this disaster as they are MUCH more self reliant than the average American. It might be a great idea for the federal government to consult with the Amish on an American disaster plan.
The beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic we saw people fist fighting over toilet paper... imagine when people start fighting over food...
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America is a big place. Short of a massive meteor or nuclear Armageddon, it is unlikely that any major disaster is going to impact more than a few thousand square miles. The people in areas unaffected by the disaster will simply assist those people in the areas that are affected by the disaster.
Yeah, could we see apocalyptical-like scenarios in some areas for some period of time? Obviously the answer to that is yes if you remember New Orleans in the few days after Hurricane Katrina. But could you see that from California to New York and Mexico to Canada? Only if something so catastrophic happened that the whole world is fucked anyway, and we ain't never gonna prepare for that. What are you looking for, evacuation rockets to the moon?
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The Amish are like 300k people mostly in or around 3 states.
A nuclear attack could wipe most of them out. I'm not sure in what sense they are "prepared" unless being relatively oblivious to the outside world is "prepared".
Granted, probably nobody would bother nuking the Amish. However, the Amish also would be complete pushovers that likely wouldn't exist without being situated in a powerful first world country protecting them.
America is certainly among the least well ordered of first world countries and has severe political problems. However, calling it woefully unprepared relative to the Amish is kind of absurd.
Major disasters are also often something you can't be prepared for aside from having active institutions and technologies anticipating them. The Amish basically don't have this. America does, even if they're janky and corrupt such as they are.
|
mvnetg
|
CMV: America is woefully unprepared for a major disaster
|
Examples include an invasion by a foreign country, civil war, nuclear attack, running out of fossil fuels, EMP blast, severe worldwide drought, asteroid strike or a massive volcanic eruption like the entirety of Yellowstone national park erupting.
Surviving the event itself will be easier than surviving the days, weeks, months and years afterward.
If all things electric shutdown because of an EMP blast including semi trucks, there goes 99% of the food supply for major cities. If the EMP goes off in the winter, many northern cities will see millions of people freeze to death in the cold. So, now everyone rushes to the supermarket to raid for food and those are scenes of major bloodbath and murders. Even if you have food and water storage, you may be dozens of miles away from land that can produce food through fishing, hunting or farming in the long term and that journey into the countryside may be more risky than what it is worth
At this point, horse drawn carriages will become a necessity and we don't have too much of those right now.
Meanwhile, the Amish are not as severely effected by this disaster as they are MUCH more self reliant than the average American. It might be a great idea for the federal government to consult with the Amish on an American disaster plan.
The beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic we saw people fist fighting over toilet paper... imagine when people start fighting over food...
| 1,619,033,425
|
overhardeggs
|
gvczp9o
|
gvczifp
| 9
| 0
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
All I can share is my personal experience. I was raised in church and family was religious. What I have come to learn is RELIGION is nothing!! It is a label of what kind of deity you may worship or a sect of common beliefs. Even the Christian faith means MANY things. Any faith that mentions anything about Jesus is out under the Christian umbrella. But when you study the Bible you learn that some “christian” sects are not following biblical Christianity. Catholic, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Baptist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Church of God, Evangelical, Pentecostal, etc all fall under the Christian umbrella but some of them believe things that are not in the Bible and are very far from being true Christianity.
What really matters is God’s Word, the Bible. MY Words mean nothing, only God’s Words.
My family was religious but I saw a lot of “bad Christians”. Just because someone goes to church, does not make them a Christian. Someone can be a Christian but not actively studying the Bible, therefore not living Christ-like. This is why the Bible tells us
Psalm 118:8
It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man.
Psalm 146:3
Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
So I knew a lot of what church said about the Bible and I thought I became a Christian around age 7. But later in life I realized I was not and will tell you how I knew that later. All I knew about the Bible was “head” knowledge, but it was not in my heart as truth.
There was abuse I suffered as a child. Not from my parents but family members. This abuse caused an anger in my heart. As a teen I was suicidal and self mutilated by cutting. I was not afraid of pain. The only thing that kept me from killing myself was the thought, “What if there is a God?” I wasn’t sure if God was real.
I graduate High School enlist into the United States Marines. I LOVED every moment in the Marines! I excelled at it and was meritoriously promoted three times. I always occasionally felt deep down inside an emptiness. One of those you lay in bed at night and wonder is there more to life?? Do I have a purpose? I thought ok if I excel at work and make $$ then I will feel that emptiness. I excelled in the Marines but still felt something missing. I had plenty of money to do what I wanted but that only was temporary and eventually again I felt empty.
So then I felt maybe if I had a good relationship, since I was lonely, it would fill the void. I got married to another Marine and as anyone who fell into this trap thought he would make happy. As many young people we just couldn’t figure out how to make it work. He was unfaithful and was with other women. I could not accept that and I was never unfaithful to him even though I could have been.
Again, as a Christian I know now that he nor any person could fill the emptiness in my heart. I feel there is a God-sized hole in all hearts that we try to fill with things; relationships, money, sex, food, pleasures, success, etc. And we enjoy those things but in the end, when we are laying at night thinking about life, we realize those things are great yet don’t fulfill the void. God doesn’t want us to be completely fulfilled without Him. Despite what many have said, God DOES want a relationship with you. He is personal and He does care!! It is hard to understand that when you look at the world and sorrows.
So we separated and I remember during that time I was so angry at him because he cheated and I felt hate for him. I also was very angry at God for messing my life up. I wasn’t even sure if He existed but if He did I blamed Him. I even shook my fist in the air and said, “God, I hate you!”
Over months my heart began to soften and I thought more about God. As I said I knew a lot about what the Bible said about Him. He loves us with an everlasting love!
Jeremiah 31: 3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.
He pursues us.
Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.
2Peter 3: 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
I began going to different churches. Each one though I still felt empty and some churches I went into and not ONE person spoke to me!! I got discouraged and stopped going. I was looking at the “people” to provide the happiness and again realized “place not your hope in man”.
When I stopped going to church I talked to God. I said, “God I don’t know if you are real. I don’t know if you care. But from what the Bible says, you love me, you want a relationship with me, you want me to know you, you are great and have a purpose for me. So IF you are real, you have to show me!”
Days later an old friend I had not seen since I was a teen came to my house and invited me to church. I accepted and went. I heard the truth about God’s love for me. I learned about how I was broken and empty because of my sin. But I also heard the cure for my sin....forgiveness.
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. Romans 3: 23
This means that no one can live up to the standard that God has established which is sinless perfection. Therefore, since we have all sinned, we all are under the penalty of our sins.
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23.
Therefore, we need salvation or to be saved.
God in His infinite mercy and love has provided a way of salvation through His Son, Jesus Christ. He did this because He loves you and me.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
Jesus Christ, God’s Son, took our place on the cross of Calvary. He bore our sins. He died in our place so we might have the opportunity to accept Him as our Saviour and receive that free gift of salvation. Sin has a penalty and that penalty is death. Jesus paid the penalty for us.
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10:9
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Romans 10:13
We need Jesus because we cannot be saved without Him. We cannot be good enough, give enough money, nor do enough nice things to get to Heaven.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9
Once I accepted these truths in God’s Word I ask Christ to forgive my sins and He did! I never felt so much PEACE in my life!! Weights had dropped from my shoulders and I felt new and free! This time I was saved and I KNEW it!! I knew it this time because of conviction now. When I do wrong or sin, I feel a feeling of a prick or stab in my heart. I never felt that before. The Bible tells us now the Holy Spirit lives inside me now as a Christian. He guides me to understand the Bible, teaches me, comforts me, and convicts me of sin.
If you want to discuss more with me the I will be happy to answer questions to anyone discussing civilly and not just seeking to argue. As I said it’s not MY words but GOD’S Word, the Bible, that matters.
I may not know much but I know the peace and comfort I now have in my life. And I no longer have an emptiness in my heart. PM me if you like!
|
I apologize for my English, my vaugness, and my inability to give you a perfect answer. Above the links is where I try to be as reasonable as possible, below the links I'm just streaming what I understand and believe. Take whatever half you wish. Take none of it if that's what you decide. I care about you. I don't think that I did a good job of my own explanation. I don't normally formulate one answer. A conversation works much better for me because I can try to respond to questions and concerns. I don't presume to know you and understand you, so I don't presume to have answered everything perfectly and anticipated all of your questions or concerns. It would be rude of me to decide that I understand you enough to have given an adequate answer. Please, pm me with questions or a reply if you'd like to talk more.
I'll start this off by saying that I can't explain something that is impossible to explain. No one can prove that a God exists. However, no one can prove that a God doesn't exist. I fall under the belief that one does. I didn't always believe this, in fact, I often doubted it. I think that it doesn't make "sense" to believe in God, but I do.
I'm sorry to hear about all the painful, exhausting, and awful things that you are having to endure. I want things to work out for you. I hope that they do. I'm not here to say that they will or they won't. It would make me so happy to know that things get better for you. What you're going through sucks. I'm sorry that it sucks so much.
I've included a couple of links at the bottom that explain a "wager" that was produced by Blaise Pascal (The international unit of pressure was named after him) in an attempt to prove that it is rational to believe that God does exist, not that God does or doesn't. He argues that it is rational to have a belief that God does. I don't agree with everything this wager suggests, but I do think that it makes a lot of compelling points.
After the links I'll include my opinion. Feel free to just read about the wager if you're looking for a rational method of changing your view. I am not as smart as Pascal by any means. I am flawed just like everyone else and can only offer an opinion. Pascal just has a much more intelligent and reasoned opinion than my own.
Please do more research than what I can provide here. I don't think that it's possible to explain proof of God into existence. I disagree with people who try to prove that God exists. You're asking for a reasonable explanation where there is none, so I've tried to give as reasonable an explanation as I can to something that cannot be explained by reason. Please bear in mind that all of this is according to my own understanding of the universe.
You come across to me as someone who is interested in knowing. You want to find out the answer, otherwise you wouldn't be asking. That is a great quality to have and I think that it serves you very well. I hope that you find peace with either solution that you come to. I encourage you to be earnest in your search for an answer. Be skeptical about the things that I say and the links I provide. Put effort into looking at the criticisms of what I have to say. Please just put as much effort into being open to them.
The wiki-
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager
A direct translation. (Look for section 233)-
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/18269/18269-h/18269-h.htm
An appropriate explanation in my opinion-
http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/pascals-wager.htm
As far as I understand it, we have to begin somehwere, right? Where I begin is that man is flawed. We aren't perfect. We can't understand perfect or impossible things. We do good things. We also do bad things. We understand some things. We can't understand others. If you are born blind, you can't understand color like a sighted person. You can have a kind of understanding when someone explains wavelengths, radiation, the spectrum, and brightness. But we won't ever see it. We won't ever really understand it. It's impossible for us to. As such, the idea of understanding something as comlex as the universe and an infinite God is an impossible task.
God gets to do whatever he wants because God is omnipotent. Which doesn't mean that he has the most power, it means that he has all of it. God has to be perfect to be able to create stuff from nothing. Or he has to at least be something that we have no concept of. The only way to understand something that you have no concept of is for someone who does understand it to explain it to you. Since we are imperfect, we will never understand on our own. He has to give us understanding for us to believe in him. He gets to choose who believes. If you don't believe, that means he hasn't chosen you to believe. The only reason that I belive in something that I can't understand is because he chooses for me to believe, not understand. I can't understand infinity, or the universe. I can't understand everything. I can't know completely in every detail all of the time. And it takes a perfect being to explain perfectness to someone who is imperfect.
God wants to be glorified. That's what I understand our purpose to be. We are to glorify him and enjoy him. Whatever joy you are experiencing, or even whatever pain you are going through is to glorify him first, and to cause you to seek for your satisfaction to be in him as second in importance. He gets to make the rules because he is in charge and has the power. I don't know why he made it this way. He tells me that he is good and is going to cause what is best for me. As I understand it, what's best for me is whatever he wants. He can want money, pain, love, loss, growth, disease, and whatever he chooses for me. Maybe all the bad things in my life happen to prove something to someone else that I don't even know about. And all of my life is worth it because he says that it is. What he wants is not what I want. I often want the things that he doesn't want. I don't want pain. I only want good thing. I'm imperfect and wanting perfection. The only way I can have it is if he makes me perfect.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
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joshingkatie
|
e3ntey5
|
e3lzgn4
| 3
| 0
|
CMV: Lolicon is a form of pedophilia and shouldn’t be treated like it’s normal.
I’m not saying we should persecute those who view it or enjoy it - but acting as if it’s a normal thing that should be encouraged in otherwise healthy individuals isn’t something I agree with. I could make this longer but my gist is this:
It doesn’t matter if the lore says it’s 1,000 years old. It doesn’t matter if they’re based on a real person whom is of legal age. Liking someone sexually based on their childlike appearance is, at a minimum, pedophilia adjacent.
For reference, I’m a mid 20s woman that is often mistaken for 15 or younger. People that age often hit on me and so do men much older - my actual age doesn’t take away from the fact that these people are interested because of how I look as well as the young characteristics I possess. Hell, I’ve even had boyfriends whom were heavily into Lolicon and admitted it to be a facet of why they liked me. I don’t think they’re bad people - I’m glad they choose people that can satisfy their desires while remaining perfectly legal.
It does squeak me out anyway, though.
Edit: a few things I want to clarify before I start sending out more replies:
1. Pedophilia is not having sex or molesting or raping kids. Pedophilia is STRICTLY the attraction to those whom are prepubescent. It does not denote any actions.
2. As such, I do not believe anyone who simply is a pedophilia should be persecuted at all.
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i like lolicon and shotacon, but not for the reasons you think
i like it because i like seeing the power fantasy of a younger person getting boned roughly by an older person, **i like to pretend i'm the younger person**, that's my fetish, i like the thought of getting boned by people older and out of my age range, that gets me off.
that being said, i'm not attracted to kids, i don't find them attractive at all. and i find actual child porn (real life) abhorrent and disgusting.
just saying, some people look at these things for different reasons.
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You also cannot breed with a drawn cartoon yet people find that attractive. There's a lot more to attraction then you seem to care to admit.
Also, humans are predators so I'm not sure what you're getting at? Pedophiles are human? Yes, we knew that. Being attracted to children is human and has been for thousands of years. Now we as a society cannot let people act on this because it's not ethical. Children cannot consent and sex with children has negative consequences for the children. This is where lolicon comes in. It lets humans be humans without harming other humans.
|
e2im6u
|
CMV: Lolicon is a form of pedophilia and shouldn’t be treated like it’s normal.
|
I’m not saying we should persecute those who view it or enjoy it - but acting as if it’s a normal thing that should be encouraged in otherwise healthy individuals isn’t something I agree with. I could make this longer but my gist is this:
It doesn’t matter if the lore says it’s 1,000 years old. It doesn’t matter if they’re based on a real person whom is of legal age. Liking someone sexually based on their childlike appearance is, at a minimum, pedophilia adjacent.
For reference, I’m a mid 20s woman that is often mistaken for 15 or younger. People that age often hit on me and so do men much older - my actual age doesn’t take away from the fact that these people are interested because of how I look as well as the young characteristics I possess. Hell, I’ve even had boyfriends whom were heavily into Lolicon and admitted it to be a facet of why they liked me. I don’t think they’re bad people - I’m glad they choose people that can satisfy their desires while remaining perfectly legal.
It does squeak me out anyway, though.
Edit: a few things I want to clarify before I start sending out more replies:
1. Pedophilia is not having sex or molesting or raping kids. Pedophilia is STRICTLY the attraction to those whom are prepubescent. It does not denote any actions.
2. As such, I do not believe anyone who simply is a pedophilia should be persecuted at all.
| 1,574,872,856
|
ThisAngryGirl
|
f8wl0cl
|
f8w2yi7
| 86
| 8
|
CMV: Lolicon is a form of pedophilia and shouldn’t be treated like it’s normal.
I’m not saying we should persecute those who view it or enjoy it - but acting as if it’s a normal thing that should be encouraged in otherwise healthy individuals isn’t something I agree with. I could make this longer but my gist is this:
It doesn’t matter if the lore says it’s 1,000 years old. It doesn’t matter if they’re based on a real person whom is of legal age. Liking someone sexually based on their childlike appearance is, at a minimum, pedophilia adjacent.
For reference, I’m a mid 20s woman that is often mistaken for 15 or younger. People that age often hit on me and so do men much older - my actual age doesn’t take away from the fact that these people are interested because of how I look as well as the young characteristics I possess. Hell, I’ve even had boyfriends whom were heavily into Lolicon and admitted it to be a facet of why they liked me. I don’t think they’re bad people - I’m glad they choose people that can satisfy their desires while remaining perfectly legal.
It does squeak me out anyway, though.
Edit: a few things I want to clarify before I start sending out more replies:
1. Pedophilia is not having sex or molesting or raping kids. Pedophilia is STRICTLY the attraction to those whom are prepubescent. It does not denote any actions.
2. As such, I do not believe anyone who simply is a pedophilia should be persecuted at all.
|
I like some loli characters in anime like I do a lot of characters in anime. I don't like children in real life, never had any sort of perverse thoughts of children in that way ever. I won't argue that it's normal, but it's not pedophilic.
Like the previous person said, yes there are some pedophiles that use lolis as an outlet for their actual pedophilic perversion. They're even some loli doujins that have been traced over from child porn. This definitely is an issue. However, I think what most normal people don't get is that loli is just an umbrella term for a bunch of archetypes that are seen and ONLY exist in anime. Their physical traits are hypersexualized versions of traits found in children yes, but you wouldn't find them on any child in real life. They're caricatures.
Think the furry community and the sexual deviancy aspect of it. Those who like furry porn aren't into actual bestiality, but the concept of furries.
|
Lolicon is a whole other thing in comparison to your good old child porn, you simply must take into account the fact that the children dont exist, fake anime children are hugely different to the actual real children in childporn, due to the fact that Lolicon Hentai causes no harm to the 0 people in it and also does not harm the reader, nobody has any right to ban, or in fact, oppose it, the simple fact that it harms nobody is plenty to prove that it is in a different league than actual child porn, therefore treating it as pretty normal shouldn't be too much of a problem, since it causes no harm nobody should mind its existence and "use" in general anime isnt treated like it's normal due to misinformation that it is all hentai, but if you are informed enough you can see it's actually pretty standard and normal depending on the show, and therefore it too can be called normal,
if it doesn't harm you or others you shouldn't care, to conlcude
|
e2im6u
|
CMV: Lolicon is a form of pedophilia and shouldn’t be treated like it’s normal.
|
I’m not saying we should persecute those who view it or enjoy it - but acting as if it’s a normal thing that should be encouraged in otherwise healthy individuals isn’t something I agree with. I could make this longer but my gist is this:
It doesn’t matter if the lore says it’s 1,000 years old. It doesn’t matter if they’re based on a real person whom is of legal age. Liking someone sexually based on their childlike appearance is, at a minimum, pedophilia adjacent.
For reference, I’m a mid 20s woman that is often mistaken for 15 or younger. People that age often hit on me and so do men much older - my actual age doesn’t take away from the fact that these people are interested because of how I look as well as the young characteristics I possess. Hell, I’ve even had boyfriends whom were heavily into Lolicon and admitted it to be a facet of why they liked me. I don’t think they’re bad people - I’m glad they choose people that can satisfy their desires while remaining perfectly legal.
It does squeak me out anyway, though.
Edit: a few things I want to clarify before I start sending out more replies:
1. Pedophilia is not having sex or molesting or raping kids. Pedophilia is STRICTLY the attraction to those whom are prepubescent. It does not denote any actions.
2. As such, I do not believe anyone who simply is a pedophilia should be persecuted at all.
| 1,574,872,856
|
ThisAngryGirl
|
f8wpqwr
|
f8wjkd0
| 58
| 1
|
CMV: The Prophet Muhammad, claimed under Islam as the Most Moral of All Men, was a child rapist.
The hadiths make it clear that he took his wife Aisha for marriage when she was 6. Many Muhammad apologists try to say she was actually much older and the Hadiths in question can't be trusted since they aren't "the word of Allah".. even though many are first hand accounts of the girl herself. By following the logic that the hadiths can't be trusted then we would have little to no knowledge of Muhammad himself and also getting rid of the hadiths turns the Quran into mound of disconnected contextless writings. The Hadith's in question :
* Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151
* 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. Sahih Muslim 8:3311
* A’ishah said : I used to play with dolls. Sometimes the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) entered upon me when the girls were with me. When he came in, they went out, and when he went out, they came in." Sunan Abu Dawud 4913 (Ahmad Hasan Ref)
* It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six, and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine, and I used to play with dolls." (Sahih) Sunan an-Nasa'i 4:26:3380
* It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "I used to play with dolls when I was with the Messenger of Allah, and he used to bring my friends to me to play with me." (Sahih) Sunan Ibn Majah 3:9:198
* Aisha said she was nine years old when the act of consummation took place and she had her dolls with her. Mishkat al-Masabih, Vol. 2, p 77
Many defenders also like to point to the context at the time being normal for child brides to take place. Agreed! It was! However again he is a prophet and he is the most moral of all men, there is no way to in todays day and age give him a pass and say its ok to that he only be held to the standards of the society around him at the time, He was founding an entire religion, he was a "holy man" so he should be rightly held to a higher standard, to which he has failed.
​
\*EDIT\* Please see my reply to u/[Subtleiaint](https://www.reddit.com/user/Subtleiaint/) for extensive additional sources
\*EDIT2\* Alright been replying for the better part of 4 hours, plenty of good discussions. Also I want to make it clear that while pointing out that Muhammad may have engaged in some very problematic practices, I'm not attempting to make a blanket commentary on modern day Islam or modern day Muslims, so for those of you that are trying, please stop turning it into that. That said I will have to come back later to continue the discussions and replies.
|
There is a single origin for the Hadith claiming Aisha was six or nine, originating from Ibn Hisham, a friend of the prophet. in his later years, ibn hisham was said to be going senile, and his writings from this time were ignored by his students, and his student’s students until all Hadith were compiled a century later. This Hadith was not considered valid until the 1800s with the rise of the salafi movement, a movement which considers Hadith infallible and as important as the Quran.
Hadith were passed down orally for 200 years after the prophet died before being compiled and standardized. Hadith were simply stories of the prophet and his interactions with individuals and small groups of people. When Hadith were compiled, the scholars who compiled it said they included all of them, just to be safe, even if they contradicted each other or seemed questionable. The Quran, on the otherhand, was standardized 10 years after the prophet died, and Quranic verses were recited to the entire Muslim community at mosques and Friday prayers, and were often repeated. The reason I bring this up is to show you the flaws in the historiography of Hadith. Half of all collected Hadith were found to contradict the Quran, and are considered fabricated. Other Hadith have their chains of transmission graded as strong or weak. A strong Hadith doesn’t mean it’s true, it just means the oral transmission seemed to have no known liars passing it down. Several strong Hadith contradict each other. Even harmless ones.
Now with that out of the way, the Hadith in question, about Aisha being 6 or 9 at the time of marriage is contradicted by several other Hadith and secular historical facts. Things like how the battle of badr started 1 year after the prophet and Aisha married, and Muhammad forbid anyone under 15 from going to the battle. Aisha was at that battle supporting the soldiers.
Another being Aisha’s sister was 30 at the time their wedding, and Aisha was said to be about 10 years younger than her sister.
The biggest contradictions to the claim Aisha was 6 or 9 a was that Arab nobility (which Aisha was) did not get married until the individual getting married could Understand their own finances. Muhammad established this practice for all Muslims, (along with puberty). A 6 or 9 year old has no ability to understand finances, and this wouldn’t have been allowed in Islam, or even under the culture of pre Islamic nobility. Also, before the modern era, people reached puberty later. It would’ve been very uncommon for Aisha to have reached puberty at 9.
The Arabs at the time did not have a standard calendar, so ages were estimated until the Muslims standardized time keeping during Muhammad’s time in Medina, which was years sheet Aisha and Muhammad married.
A side note, Muhammad first and favorite wife was Khadijah, Who was 40 when she wed Muhammad, who was 25 at the time. All of Muhammad’s 11 other wives were middle aged widows or divorcees. Muhammad married Aisha as a political alliance with abu bakr.
Lastly, in the old world, it wasn’t common for women to be married young because pregnancy would literally kill them if they weren’t old enough. Women were a very important resource in a healthy society, and keeping them alive was important because women are the only people who can give birth. Until the modern age, it was common for women to outnumber men, because men had to do all the risky stuff. Because a single man can impregnate multiple women, but women can only give birth to a single child a year. Aisha, bring nobility, would never be allowed to risk her life being pregnant young.
Secular historians estimate Aisha to be 16-19 at the time of marriage. Only ibn hishams original Hadith claims otherwise.
|
So first, a quibble:
> E, that we consider taking a prepubescent bride to be immoral by our current standards.
Do we? Are we just tossing arranged marriages on the funeral pyre? It has fallen out of fashion in the West, but if an Indian family arranges for two children to be betrothed do we have an objection to that? Or is the objection the implied sexual relationship with someone that age? Is it the same objection if both people are the same age? At what increment in age difference does society have the right and responsibility to intervene? You're opening a huge can of worms here.
Our society prefers to believe that children are not sexual beings until they cut the ribbon at some arbitrary age, or at puberty, but that view necessitates tossing aside the notion that humans are sexual animals (which is Dogmatic), and occupy some sort of space apart from the entire rest of the animal Kingdom (protozoa and mole rats aside). TL:DR babies masturbate in the womb and our society has no chill when it comes to human sexuality before our arbitrary age. Which varies country to country, state to state, and sometimes by county!
> F, that we consider our current standards of morality to be largely correct, well-informed, or at least better-so than what we had in Mohammed's time.
> If we discard F, then that means that we would consider Mohammed immoral but that we would not know "true", absolute morality
We *HAVE* to discard F. While I certainly believe that a certain amount of progress has been made myself over the centuries, I have to always acknowledge that my own cultural relativism is defining 'progress' along an axis of value that is personal: to wit; I likey individualism and personal freedom/dignity. But those values are not the be-all and end-all of human achievement and anyone with a little study can easily see how much(okay, all) of our so-called standard of morality goes out the window depending on circumstances. Every time there's a war or famine or sufficient over-crowding(read as insufficient resources and competition for same) a conversation begins about who's going to sacrifice what to preserve extant society. If we look at morality as a spectrum instead of a firmament we see that shifts are natural and that we need to maintain a certain amount of flexibility to avoid constant war with everyone who disagrees with us about every little thing(looking at you, Woke LibLeft). See for reference; the War on (Some) Drugs, the War on Poverty, the Culture War, etc. etc.
> Disclaimer: I am a philosopher, not a religious scholar. I have no skin in this game. I am speaking only to the logical flow of OP's argument.
Well I'm a little of both, and I like to remember that moral relativism is *always* present, unless you are a subscriber to Dogma, and **even then**, you have to believe in a clean chain of custody, which I think flies in the face of reason more than any personal religious beliefs. Books are written by humans and humans fucking lie. People who accept Dogma forget this and believe that their book is somehow infallible; usually because that book tells them it is! Lemme redo your postulates, for my own sanity and the related sake of brevity:
A, that **the Koran is a book that espouses an absolute system of morality**.
B, that **the Koran** is **perceived to be immutably correct by Muslims** and the source of that morality.
C, that **the story of Mohammed as conveyed by the Koran** conveys Allah's will to a significant extent.
D, that Muhammed took a prepubescent bride.
E, that we consider taking a prepubescent bride to be immoral **in any context**.
F, that we consider our current standards of morality to **be the only ones that contain immutable truths**
This is why E and F have to go; they are not sustainably, objectively true. Not over time, and not even in universal context in this time. The rest of our postulates become tautology with a little reframing. The question of what is true is the first and most important question, but it is also, morally, impossible to answer without participating in a value system. You can't not have skin in this game, any more than you can figure out where an electron is without losing it's velocity.
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mvqyoq
|
CMV: The Prophet Muhammad, claimed under Islam as the Most Moral of All Men, was a child rapist.
|
The hadiths make it clear that he took his wife Aisha for marriage when she was 6. Many Muhammad apologists try to say she was actually much older and the Hadiths in question can't be trusted since they aren't "the word of Allah".. even though many are first hand accounts of the girl herself. By following the logic that the hadiths can't be trusted then we would have little to no knowledge of Muhammad himself and also getting rid of the hadiths turns the Quran into mound of disconnected contextless writings. The Hadith's in question :
* Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151
* 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. Sahih Muslim 8:3311
* A’ishah said : I used to play with dolls. Sometimes the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) entered upon me when the girls were with me. When he came in, they went out, and when he went out, they came in." Sunan Abu Dawud 4913 (Ahmad Hasan Ref)
* It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six, and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine, and I used to play with dolls." (Sahih) Sunan an-Nasa'i 4:26:3380
* It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "I used to play with dolls when I was with the Messenger of Allah, and he used to bring my friends to me to play with me." (Sahih) Sunan Ibn Majah 3:9:198
* Aisha said she was nine years old when the act of consummation took place and she had her dolls with her. Mishkat al-Masabih, Vol. 2, p 77
Many defenders also like to point to the context at the time being normal for child brides to take place. Agreed! It was! However again he is a prophet and he is the most moral of all men, there is no way to in todays day and age give him a pass and say its ok to that he only be held to the standards of the society around him at the time, He was founding an entire religion, he was a "holy man" so he should be rightly held to a higher standard, to which he has failed.
​
\*EDIT\* Please see my reply to u/[Subtleiaint](https://www.reddit.com/user/Subtleiaint/) for extensive additional sources
\*EDIT2\* Alright been replying for the better part of 4 hours, plenty of good discussions. Also I want to make it clear that while pointing out that Muhammad may have engaged in some very problematic practices, I'm not attempting to make a blanket commentary on modern day Islam or modern day Muslims, so for those of you that are trying, please stop turning it into that. That said I will have to come back later to continue the discussions and replies.
| 1,619,043,608
|
Drewsef916
|
gvfwqm8
|
gvfnsta
| 1
| -2
|
CMV: The Prophet Muhammad, claimed under Islam as the Most Moral of All Men, was a child rapist.
The hadiths make it clear that he took his wife Aisha for marriage when she was 6. Many Muhammad apologists try to say she was actually much older and the Hadiths in question can't be trusted since they aren't "the word of Allah".. even though many are first hand accounts of the girl herself. By following the logic that the hadiths can't be trusted then we would have little to no knowledge of Muhammad himself and also getting rid of the hadiths turns the Quran into mound of disconnected contextless writings. The Hadith's in question :
* Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151
* 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. Sahih Muslim 8:3311
* A’ishah said : I used to play with dolls. Sometimes the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) entered upon me when the girls were with me. When he came in, they went out, and when he went out, they came in." Sunan Abu Dawud 4913 (Ahmad Hasan Ref)
* It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six, and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine, and I used to play with dolls." (Sahih) Sunan an-Nasa'i 4:26:3380
* It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "I used to play with dolls when I was with the Messenger of Allah, and he used to bring my friends to me to play with me." (Sahih) Sunan Ibn Majah 3:9:198
* Aisha said she was nine years old when the act of consummation took place and she had her dolls with her. Mishkat al-Masabih, Vol. 2, p 77
Many defenders also like to point to the context at the time being normal for child brides to take place. Agreed! It was! However again he is a prophet and he is the most moral of all men, there is no way to in todays day and age give him a pass and say its ok to that he only be held to the standards of the society around him at the time, He was founding an entire religion, he was a "holy man" so he should be rightly held to a higher standard, to which he has failed.
​
\*EDIT\* Please see my reply to u/[Subtleiaint](https://www.reddit.com/user/Subtleiaint/) for extensive additional sources
\*EDIT2\* Alright been replying for the better part of 4 hours, plenty of good discussions. Also I want to make it clear that while pointing out that Muhammad may have engaged in some very problematic practices, I'm not attempting to make a blanket commentary on modern day Islam or modern day Muslims, so for those of you that are trying, please stop turning it into that. That said I will have to come back later to continue the discussions and replies.
|
This piece of misinformation has led to the wrong view that The Holy Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) married a minor. . It must be noted that establishing the authenticity of hadiths, the narrators’ circumstances and the conditions at that time have to be correlated with historical facts. There is only one hadith by Hisham which suggests the age of Hazrat Aisha as being nine when she came to live with her husband.
​
Many authentic hadiths also show that Hisham’s narration is incongruous with several historical facts about the Prophet’s life, on which there is consensus. With reference to scholars such as Umar Ahmed Usmani, Hakim Niaz Ahmed and Habibur Rehman Kandhulvi, it can be proven that Hazrat Aisha was at least 18.
​
According to Umar Ahmed Usmani, in Surah Al-Nisa, it is said that the guardian of the orphans should keep testing them, until they reach the age of marriage, before returning their property [(4:6)](https://quran.com/4/6) . From this scholars have concluded that the Quran sets a minimum age of marriage which is at least puberty. Since the approval of the girl has a legal standing, she cannot be a minor.
​
Hisham bin Urwah is the main narrator of the hadith that say Hazrat Aisha was a child. His life is divided into two periods: in 131A.H. the Madani period ended, and the Iraqi period started, when Hisham was 71 years old. Hafiz Zehbi has spoken about Hisham’s loss of memory in his later period. His students in Madina, Imam Malik and Imam Abu Hanifah, do not mention this hadith. Imam Malik and the people of Madina criticised him for his Iraqi hadiths.
​
All the narrators of this hadith are Iraqis who had heard it from Hisham. Allama Kandhulvi says that the words spoken in connection with Hazrat Aisha’s age were tissa ashara, meaning 19, when Hisham only heard (or remembered), tissa, meaning nine. Maulana Usmani thinks this change was purposely and maliciously made later.
​
Historian Ibn Ishaq in his Sirat Rasul Allah has given a list of the people who accepted Islam in the first year of the proclamation of Islam, in which Hazrat Aisha’s name is mentioned as Abu Bakr’s “little daughter Aisha”. If we accept Hisham’s calculations, she was not even born at that time.
​
Some time after the death of the Prophet’s first wife, Hazrat Khadija, Khawla suggested to the Prophet that he get married again, to a bikrun, referring to Hazrat Aisha (Musnad Ahmed). In Arabic bikrun is used for an unmarried girl who has crossed the age of puberty and is of marriageable age. The word cannot be used for a six-year-old girl.
​
Some scholars think that Hazrat Aisha was married off so early because in Arabia girls mature at an early age. But this was not a common custom of the Arabs at that time. According to Allama Kandhulvi, there is no such case on record either before or after Islam. Neither has this ever been promoted as a Sunnah of the Prophet. The Prophet married off his daughters Fatima at 21 and Ruquiyya at 23. Besides, Hazrat Abu Bakr, Aisha’s father, married off his eldest daughter Asma at the age of 26.
​
Hazrat Aisha narrates that she was present on the battlefield at the Battle of Badar (Muslim). This leads one to conclude that Hazrat Aisha moved into the Prophet’s house in 1 A.H. But a nine-year-old could not have been taken on a rough and risky military mission.
​
In 2 A.H, the Prophet refused to take boys of less than 15 years of age to the battle of Uhud. Would he have allowed a 10-year-old girl to accompany him? But Anas reported that he saw Aisha and Umme Sulaim carrying goatskins full of water and serving it to the soldiers (Bukhari). Umme Sulaim and Umme Ammara, the other women present at Uhud, were both strong, mature women whose duties were the lifting of the dead and injured, treating their wounds, carrying water in heavy goatskins, supplying ammunition and even taking up the sword.
​
Hazrat Aisha used the kunniat, the title derived from the name of a child, of Umme Abdullah after her nephew and adopted son. If she was six when her nikah was performed, she would have been only eight years his senior, hardly making him eligible for adoption. Also, a little girl could not have given up on ever having her own child and used an adopted child’s name for her kunniat.
​
Hazrat Aisha’s nephew Urwah once remarked that he was not surprised about her amazing knowledge of Islamic law, poetry and history because she was the wife of the Prophet and the daughter of Abu Bakr. If she was eight when her father migrated, when did she learn poetry and history from him?
​
There is consensus that Hazrat Aisha was 10 years younger than her elder sister Asma, whose age at the time of the hijrah, or migration to Madina, was about 28. It can be concluded that Hazrat Aisha was about 18 years old at migration. On her moving to the Prophet’s house, she was a young woman at 21. Hisham is the single narrator of the hadith whose authenticity is challenged, for it does not correlate with the many historical facts of the time.
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Your interpretation of what is a “child” would be the issue here.
In modern times we have specific distinctions based on maturity of mind, maturity of body, but also arbitrary distinctions based on number of years.
Childhood for a female of that time would have ended with puberty at which time a female would be considered a woman if not one of much maturity.
So the crux of the issue would be whether Aisha had menstruated by the age of nine and that does happen.
Secondly there is the social implications of a consummated marital union of that time which is still the case in modern times... A consummated marriage creates a different legal bond and a bride would have been the symbol of a union of state and of matrimony.
If the consumption of that marriage was an act of sacrifice for a greater food you’d have to wrestle then with the moral implications of not consummating the marriage.
Lastly, is the issue of consummation and the degree to which it is valid or performed... there is no description in these texts of what actual act had taken place and all we know is that the act of consultation “took place” and without the specific description, for all we know, this older man may have very well explained what was to happen and explained why it would not given her young age but that she was complicit in keeping the secret that the act may have not taken place; Assuming he was the most moral of men.
The words are not definitive descriptions of what you perceive them to be which is a problem with cryptic texts that religions are based upon.
Edit: Apparently, some of you need clarification that sexual relations between adults and minors is bad, so...:
1. If you think it’s normal to have sexual thoughts or relations with minors, you should seek help... in no world is it healthy or acceptable to engage in sexual acts with a 9 year old, even if you’re 9 years old you shouldn’t be engaging in sexual behavior.
2. If you look to ancient cultures that treated their daughters like cattle and basically sold their children to men for status or remuneration as in the story OP has documented and you think that is the way it should be, there is something wrong with the way you think.
No person should be treated like property.
No six year old should be married to an adult.
No minor should be in a relationship with an adult.
3. The distinction above between mental maturity, emotional maturity, physical maturity, and age is important because over the millennia world cultures have changed for the better and have become more complicated.
The important part is that we have identified that mental and emotional maturity are far more important for a persons happiness and capability to pursue a successful future as opposed to physical maturity which only indicates the most base animal ability of reproduction.
The age we set for minors is to allow for that mental and emotional maturity to develop before a person starts making decisions to permanently alter their lives.
!IMPORTANT: If you are an adult that thinks a 9 year old or any minor is mature enough for a relationship, you are wrong.
4. Ancient documents, scripture, or cultures are not an excuse to abuse children or anyone...
They’re not an excuse to attack LGBTQ or non-binary people.
They’re not an excuse to commit genocide or seek retribution against an entire people or culture or religion.
They’re not excuse to treat women like property.
They are ancient writings by people who wanted to justify the way they wanted live, that’s all... doesn’t make it right and it probably makes it wrong.
5. Whoever flagged this comment that discusses the ancient interpretation of maturity as “sexualizing minors” actually only shut down any clarification that would have come from a dialog about why the types of behaviors OP listed are wrong.
Next time, comment and ask clarifying questions, just in case a pedo i’d feeling justified so they can read along and understand why children, ancient or modern, are not and should never be sexual objects for adults.
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mvqyoq
|
CMV: The Prophet Muhammad, claimed under Islam as the Most Moral of All Men, was a child rapist.
|
The hadiths make it clear that he took his wife Aisha for marriage when she was 6. Many Muhammad apologists try to say she was actually much older and the Hadiths in question can't be trusted since they aren't "the word of Allah".. even though many are first hand accounts of the girl herself. By following the logic that the hadiths can't be trusted then we would have little to no knowledge of Muhammad himself and also getting rid of the hadiths turns the Quran into mound of disconnected contextless writings. The Hadith's in question :
* Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151
* 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. Sahih Muslim 8:3311
* A’ishah said : I used to play with dolls. Sometimes the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) entered upon me when the girls were with me. When he came in, they went out, and when he went out, they came in." Sunan Abu Dawud 4913 (Ahmad Hasan Ref)
* It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six, and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine, and I used to play with dolls." (Sahih) Sunan an-Nasa'i 4:26:3380
* It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "I used to play with dolls when I was with the Messenger of Allah, and he used to bring my friends to me to play with me." (Sahih) Sunan Ibn Majah 3:9:198
* Aisha said she was nine years old when the act of consummation took place and she had her dolls with her. Mishkat al-Masabih, Vol. 2, p 77
Many defenders also like to point to the context at the time being normal for child brides to take place. Agreed! It was! However again he is a prophet and he is the most moral of all men, there is no way to in todays day and age give him a pass and say its ok to that he only be held to the standards of the society around him at the time, He was founding an entire religion, he was a "holy man" so he should be rightly held to a higher standard, to which he has failed.
​
\*EDIT\* Please see my reply to u/[Subtleiaint](https://www.reddit.com/user/Subtleiaint/) for extensive additional sources
\*EDIT2\* Alright been replying for the better part of 4 hours, plenty of good discussions. Also I want to make it clear that while pointing out that Muhammad may have engaged in some very problematic practices, I'm not attempting to make a blanket commentary on modern day Islam or modern day Muslims, so for those of you that are trying, please stop turning it into that. That said I will have to come back later to continue the discussions and replies.
| 1,619,043,608
|
Drewsef916
|
gve30bf
|
gvdvzl2
| 96
| 43
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
**Δ** Wow it's clear you're a bit ahead of my in Philosophy. I am slowly getting there, it's a relatively recent pursuit of mine. I will explore your recommendations further.
|
Hi. I totally agree with you. I’ve always thought this also. It’s nice to finally meet someone with a similar mind.
I would like to know more about your view.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3mm3di
|
e3m00te
| 12
| 3
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
|
OP u/joshingkatie: My nonsmoker mother-in-law also developed lung cancer not caught until Stage IV. Please have your home checked for radon. It is a common culprit. If you would like to PM me an email address, I’ll PayPal you the cost of testing (which you can use for whatever you want, of course!).
|
I think it's absolutely ridiculous for you to use such an analogy as our view of single-celled organisms. Single-celled organisms don't have personalities or feelings. If an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient God exists, and knows of our existence, he would obviously be smart enough to know that we have very complicated lives.
|
94k9lf
|
CMV: The universe indifferent to suffering, god is not there
|
Please do not downvote me, even if you resent my views. I am trying to build up 300 Karma so I can ask for assistance on my family on /r/assistance. Even after a year, I am struggling to build even 200ish Karma up. People say Karma doesn't matter, but in our case it does. I am not asking for upvotes, merely that you do not harm this pursuit. I realize the view I hold may be considered unkind, but what me and my whole family need at this point is kindness.
I became physically disabled in 2008, total and permanent disability awarded through SSA. Years go by and my wife developed stage-IV lung cancer (despite never smoking) while pregnant at the age of 29. She is very likely to die and leave me with three kids (all under age 7) that I will struggle (putting it mildly) to support. I attempt to go back to work (because she couldn't anymore), after trying my absolute hardest it worsens my condition and I just got laid off due to lack of productivity. Since I earned significant income in my attempt, SSA revoked my disability, upon trying to have it re-instated SSA informed me my attempts to re-apply for benefits will fail. My family and social network in general has struggles of their own, at capacity in their willingness to help us. At the rate things are going, we are going to be homeless, my wife will be dead and my children will be taken away by social services. I cannot work at this point and I have no prospective income in the foreseeable future.
I get the impression that all people are struggling to some degree, otherwise they would help us more. Struggling is largely accepted, human biases naturally make people less inclined to help those in need. Like assuming others might help-like god maybe? I hear all the time from my friends that god has a plan. That god's trying to teach us something with this cancer battle. That everything will work out, trust in god. That maybe we're not right with god and have invited demons to oppress our household. When things go good for my friends, they praise god for favoring them and rewarding their faith. When things go wrong for us, they just pray for us, without any effect. When I walk into the halls of MD Anderson Cancer Treatment Center (almost daily), the absence of god is glaringly obvious to me. Young mothers, little children- all dying, horribly maimed by cancer, they are horribly disfigured and horrific numbers of amputations of every variety. How can this be part of god's plan? What can these poor people learn? What omnipotent being comes up with suffering as a way of "soul-making" or any other theodicy I've heard people make for these atrocities, his apparent indifference?
The reality is there is no god. The universe is precisely what a scientist would expect to see if there were no intelligent creator behind it. It's a random ensemble of physical laws that just happened to give rise to conscious life, giving it the mere appearance of fine tuning. I would expect more from an omnipotent god. I would argue that an omnipotent being could make a world free of suffering, where free-will did not comprise a world where people's exercise of free will would anger him, provoking him into creating this painful existence. Conscious beings wouldn't have to kill and eat/pain other conscious beings for survival, the bible would be this perfect literary work and not rife with glaring contradictions and condoning morally questionable acts that were once acceptable for the time. In our case, we did not earn our misfortune, just some people by random chance have everything go wrong. As unlikely as it is (and indeed unlikely as our specific universe/laws are,) roll the dice enough and it happens. You'll find that a rare few people have extremely bad runs of 'luck' and conversely, a few with very good runs. The majority will fall in the middle of good and bad things happening to them, but nothing catastrophically bad or sensationally spectacular in their lifetimes. These people will attribute the random goings on as divine intervention, the will of god. They will interpret massive failure they see as the result of personal failings/judgement from god. They will interpret extreme success as brilliance with god's approval shining down.
Please change my view, I am in a horribly dark place devoid of all hope. I have no idea on a path forward, everything I try to do is not enough to save our family. I am trying to stave off a sense of learned helplessness at this point. So much pain and failure despite my very best efforts. Families silently die every day, but you just don't know- that's why it's a silent death. I am not the silent type, I will make a desperate scream in hopes it will be heard. My friends surround me saying god is there, I see the suffering around me (not just my own, or my family's) and it's pretty clear to me no one's home. I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, I would be extremely angry and appalled by his apparent indifference, his negligence.
<EDIT 2 PMish CST> Took a short break to go eat. All the support and counterpoints are really helping. I just realized I haven't eaten in a very long time. In fact, I lost 20 lbs in the last month and a half. I'm back to responding, slow going because I'm so overwhelmed with emotions right now.
<EDIT 3:58 PM CST> Wow I have been in a completely dark cloud. I have been holding together in some ways, but completely broken inside. I've just now come to the realization that my family is battle worn. We have been fighting for two whole years now with very little time to actually enjoy life. A very kind redditor (and really, you all have been extraordinarily kind) made a modest donation, which I am using a small portion to get the family out of the house for icecream- hopefully will boost morale around here. Will be back in a bit. I will be continuing to respond to everyone (here and PMs), even into the night. I hope you all know how grateful I am. I didn't have high hopes for today (or this post.) Thank you.
<EDIT 8:34 PM CST> Been recuperating from the outing. Being able to think more clearly, I think my emotional state took the worst nose dive around 7/11. My back completely failed me, which was terrifying given the state of things. Then on 7/12, I was notified I was officially being laid off. My wife's treatment last treatment failed around a month and a half before that, requiring a new one. Darkest place I've ever been guys, thanks for pulling me out of it. I'm back now and answering things. In the meantime, thanks everyone for enabling this:
[http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg](http://weirdscience.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/7CC35F6E-0EBE-42FF-902E-6776801966F6.jpg)
Given the state of things, I would have never imagined winding up there today. We had a nice break, really felt like there was a bit of normalcy. I am going to summarize everything I've learned from this, so this might one day help others feeling as I do. Truth be told, I do feel more open-minded about things, this subreddit is doing exactly what it was meant to do.
<EDIT 10:15ish PM CST> Holy moly, drinking philosophy through the fire hose at the moment. This whole thread has been amazingly educating. Brain a bit gooey, taking a break to watch Criminal Minds with my lady. It's our thing at the moment. Also just figured out there's this "Delta" thing I haven't been tending to. I will be going back and fixing that for all the people who contributed to changing my mind.
<EDIT 1 AMish CST> Been here for a while, just responding to some neglected PMs. Might take a quick doze and see if I can actually sleep tonight, tending to a few things on this thread during periods I can't sleep. Today has been simply incredible, I am so surprised how things have gone. I am deeply touched and inspired.
<EDIT 7:34 AM CST> Holy crap I actually slept the entire night! This hasn't happened in years! Back at it.
<EDIT 11:51 AM CST> Taking a break, noticed my wife's thinking is starting to spiral. She hasn't been here yet to benefit from all the support and perspective everyone is offering in this thread. I'm going to share the insights I derived here, just make her day a little better. Being in a far better place now, I can more clearly see she's been in the same bad place I've been these past few months, probably for far longer than I. Don't worry though, I am a person who values his commitments and I see everything I do to its conclusion. Will be back tonight (to tend to this amazing thread and all the wonderful PMs) after the family goes to sleep.
<EDIT 11:40 PM CST> Pssst. I'm back, everyone's asleep and I am back at it. Operation spirit lift was a success, my wife is feeling better- just in time for us to head to Houston to begin her new clinical trial. It's going to be a brutal week. Katie is getting a bone biopsy on Tuesday, it's really painful and scary. I have to stay behind until Tuesday night to go to a few doctor appointments to see what's up with my back. Been handing out those deltas, please let me know if I overlooked your comment, there's nearly 500 of them at this point and I'm only halfway through.
<EDIT 1:00 AM CST> Heading to bed for a bit. About 3/4 way through the comments. Really want to reiterate how amazing everyone has been. I really think a lot of good will come from this- not just me and my family, but everyone.
<EDIT 2:05 PM CST> Decided to brave the bounce house this morning, the kids haven't been in over a month. I was getting weird looks for having to lie down a lot, but the kids had an absolute blast. Their mom is now in Houston getting her MRI and other diagnostics. We will join her tomorrow night after all my doctors appointments for my back. To make sure my wife isn't alone through all of this, her dad took the next two days off to be with her. I really love that man, totally inspires me as a father. I'm back at home recuperating in bed while the kiddos are napping, might have to disappear suddenly. Until then, I'm back to responding.
<EDIT 3:27 PM CST> Kids are awake, will come back to this tonight.
<EDIT 2:17 AM CST> Yikes, totally wrecked from the day with the kiddos, just now getting back here after recuperating for a bit.
<EDIT 11:37 AM> Discharged as chronic pain patient, because "we don't work well together." Really he doesn't like when I challenge him by asking questions, or to do anything really (like paperwork.) He complained that I don't go in there for procedures and just get refills on meds. I'm an intractable pain patient, surgery, epidurals, PT, spinal stim, non-opioid meds all failed and he knows this. Every single appointment, I re-iterate that I am willing to try anything new treatment-wise (and they offer none)- I think it was just him doing CYA. Anyhow, just a small window into my world (and many others in intractable pain.) Due to the opioid crisis it will take a very long time to establish a new doctor, my current one says he won't write any further scripts so this could potentially screw me over really bad. I'm going to see if an other doctor in the practice will take me on. Back to this in a bit when I figure out my next move.
<EDIT 4:44 PM CST> Leaving for Houston a bit late. Waiting on house sitter. Answering PMs tonight, more of thread tomorrow.<EDIT 12:08 AM CST> In Houston, everyone's in bed. Answering PMs.
<EDIT 9:00 PM CST> Going to wrap up answering comments, almost there! Afterwards, will be contributing to ProjectWATT, perhaps also to the podcast. It would be a nice way to give back.
<EDIT 9:01 AM CST 8/11/18> This might be my final update to this comment, made my best effort to answer every comment in this thread. If I overlooked yours please do let me know, I will respond. I am now working on contributing to ProjectWATT as time permits.
My wife had a reaction to her infusion, she's completely debilitated from it, just laying in bed crying. I am extremely stressed, but still holding (thank you everyone!) For now, I will be fully tasked taking care of everyone. We could use help, if you feel like doing so please do so solidly in your means.
[paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac](https://paypal.me/homicidalbrainiac)
BTC: 16d7DwFTzhfSnrbznEnP4QB3XexwFnXcK1
Katie's best friend also established a gofundme a while back that was used to raise money for paying the full insurance deductible (ours is just over $5K) that MD Anderson requires up-front before allowing treatment every year. It's been inactive for a while up until recently, but still works.
[https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh](https://www.gofundme.com/z7pruh)
| 1,533,399,300
|
joshingkatie
|
e3mj9yg
|
e3m2juu
| 2
| 1
|
CMV: The Prophet Muhammad, claimed under Islam as the Most Moral of All Men, was a child rapist.
The hadiths make it clear that he took his wife Aisha for marriage when she was 6. Many Muhammad apologists try to say she was actually much older and the Hadiths in question can't be trusted since they aren't "the word of Allah".. even though many are first hand accounts of the girl herself. By following the logic that the hadiths can't be trusted then we would have little to no knowledge of Muhammad himself and also getting rid of the hadiths turns the Quran into mound of disconnected contextless writings. The Hadith's in question :
* Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151
* 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. Sahih Muslim 8:3311
* A’ishah said : I used to play with dolls. Sometimes the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) entered upon me when the girls were with me. When he came in, they went out, and when he went out, they came in." Sunan Abu Dawud 4913 (Ahmad Hasan Ref)
* It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six, and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine, and I used to play with dolls." (Sahih) Sunan an-Nasa'i 4:26:3380
* It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "I used to play with dolls when I was with the Messenger of Allah, and he used to bring my friends to me to play with me." (Sahih) Sunan Ibn Majah 3:9:198
* Aisha said she was nine years old when the act of consummation took place and she had her dolls with her. Mishkat al-Masabih, Vol. 2, p 77
Many defenders also like to point to the context at the time being normal for child brides to take place. Agreed! It was! However again he is a prophet and he is the most moral of all men, there is no way to in todays day and age give him a pass and say its ok to that he only be held to the standards of the society around him at the time, He was founding an entire religion, he was a "holy man" so he should be rightly held to a higher standard, to which he has failed.
​
\*EDIT\* Please see my reply to u/[Subtleiaint](https://www.reddit.com/user/Subtleiaint/) for extensive additional sources
\*EDIT2\* Alright been replying for the better part of 4 hours, plenty of good discussions. Also I want to make it clear that while pointing out that Muhammad may have engaged in some very problematic practices, I'm not attempting to make a blanket commentary on modern day Islam or modern day Muslims, so for those of you that are trying, please stop turning it into that. That said I will have to come back later to continue the discussions and replies.
|
You are going about this all wrong.
The founding myths of all religions are as unsubstantiated as LOTR. The founding myth is used by philosophers and power brokers of that era and subsequent ones to carve out a system of morality and ideology for all.
The actual belief system is merely a way to induct you in and keep you from leaving.
All adults are faced with the meaningless and utter chaos of life at some point. Religion adds structure to the chaos, and the founding myth helps you keep your blinders on so you can be content within all the compromises the structure entails. Nothing motivates a person like impossible promises of future reward or fear of future torture. Religion is your dad that looks under the bed to check for monsters. You know they don't exist, but it helps you sleep better at night.
Note: There is nothing wrong with that. I am not advocating for atheism or against religion. It serves a purpose.
Eventually, the unsubstantiated nature of every religion causes doubt in the believer. To that, the answer is always some variant of' "God works in mysterious ways". This is supposed to be a silver bullet, a dead end to your inquiry and a veiled threat for anyone who wishes to go past.
You are free to read 20k word rebuttals that go through the theology and tell you why your claims are wrong. They will jump through hoops and do logical backflips to bring you to an answer, that makes sense if you want it to make sense. But, it really is another version of "God works in mysterious ways".
Similarly, your central argument of, "The most moral islamic man did something incredibly immoral" is another variant of ,"Your religion has fundamental inconsistencies in its founding myth".
This is a weak complaint because 'it's not a bug, it's a feature'.
Islam is no exception.
|
I know where you're coming from, but is a man great only of they are morally unquestionable and pure to the core, morally incorruptible through the ages? Or is it when they create something that people relate to?
It's a combination of both and I believe just looking at one angle of the child marriage from modern perspective, which you should agree changes over times, is unfair to the progenitor of one of the major religions in the world.
Islam has many defunct principles which don't work in the modern society, but the basic behind each relegion is to provide a set of rules and stories to help us find discipline in an otherwise chaotic world. Even if Mohamad conformed to the general norm of his time, please don't belittle the man who founded Islam just because he didn't fit the morality of our age.
The fact remains that if you view it from our perspective, he did in fact commit a big crime marrying a kid, but calling him a rapist when tons of other great philosophers and godly men of other religions did the same is a bit agressive. I don't understand the point of debate when we project our perspective our morality onto the figures of the past and try to make them conform to our standards. This leads to corrupted views of the truth and I prefer if we judged people by thier own times. If we try to understand Mohammed, it shouldn't be with the taint of him being married to a little girl. It's easier for our brains to point out right and wrong and create easy perceptions of people according to our own beliefs but we must get ahead of ourselves and be objective whenever we can.
After all, if you view the world through rose tinted glasses, you'll only learn what you see not what you should perceive.
|
mvqyoq
|
CMV: The Prophet Muhammad, claimed under Islam as the Most Moral of All Men, was a child rapist.
|
The hadiths make it clear that he took his wife Aisha for marriage when she was 6. Many Muhammad apologists try to say she was actually much older and the Hadiths in question can't be trusted since they aren't "the word of Allah".. even though many are first hand accounts of the girl herself. By following the logic that the hadiths can't be trusted then we would have little to no knowledge of Muhammad himself and also getting rid of the hadiths turns the Quran into mound of disconnected contextless writings. The Hadith's in question :
* Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151
* 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. Sahih Muslim 8:3311
* A’ishah said : I used to play with dolls. Sometimes the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) entered upon me when the girls were with me. When he came in, they went out, and when he went out, they came in." Sunan Abu Dawud 4913 (Ahmad Hasan Ref)
* It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six, and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine, and I used to play with dolls." (Sahih) Sunan an-Nasa'i 4:26:3380
* It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "I used to play with dolls when I was with the Messenger of Allah, and he used to bring my friends to me to play with me." (Sahih) Sunan Ibn Majah 3:9:198
* Aisha said she was nine years old when the act of consummation took place and she had her dolls with her. Mishkat al-Masabih, Vol. 2, p 77
Many defenders also like to point to the context at the time being normal for child brides to take place. Agreed! It was! However again he is a prophet and he is the most moral of all men, there is no way to in todays day and age give him a pass and say its ok to that he only be held to the standards of the society around him at the time, He was founding an entire religion, he was a "holy man" so he should be rightly held to a higher standard, to which he has failed.
​
\*EDIT\* Please see my reply to u/[Subtleiaint](https://www.reddit.com/user/Subtleiaint/) for extensive additional sources
\*EDIT2\* Alright been replying for the better part of 4 hours, plenty of good discussions. Also I want to make it clear that while pointing out that Muhammad may have engaged in some very problematic practices, I'm not attempting to make a blanket commentary on modern day Islam or modern day Muslims, so for those of you that are trying, please stop turning it into that. That said I will have to come back later to continue the discussions and replies.
| 1,619,043,608
|
Drewsef916
|
gvgd7m2
|
gvfexht
| 1
| 0
|
CMV: Gay Pride Hurts LGBT People More Than It Helps Them
As a gay teen, I believe that pride and other such events hurt LGBT people more than it helps them.
What I mean by this is that the whole point of pride is to make a big deal about being gay or whatever you call yourself, to shout it loud and be proud. Except that's not what I, or most of my other gay friends actually want. We just want to be accepted into society as regular, everyday people. These events making a big deal about sexuality and acting like it's something to be proud of actively try to place us on a different level to straight people, which is the last thing I want
TLDR; Me and most of the other gay people I talk to just want to be treated like everyone else, and gay pride actively goes against that
CMV
|
"Harm" May be too strong of a word to use here, but that's not my point.
My point is that modern pride events try to elevate gay people and put them on a different level to everyone else by treating us like we're special and need special treatment, when really we just want to get on with out lives.
|
In most developed countries it was acceptable
|
6qiwi4
|
CMV: Gay Pride Hurts LGBT People More Than It Helps Them
|
As a gay teen, I believe that pride and other such events hurt LGBT people more than it helps them.
What I mean by this is that the whole point of pride is to make a big deal about being gay or whatever you call yourself, to shout it loud and be proud. Except that's not what I, or most of my other gay friends actually want. We just want to be accepted into society as regular, everyday people. These events making a big deal about sexuality and acting like it's something to be proud of actively try to place us on a different level to straight people, which is the last thing I want
TLDR; Me and most of the other gay people I talk to just want to be treated like everyone else, and gay pride actively goes against that
CMV
| 1,501,438,763
|
Just_an_Elf
|
dkxnxb9
|
dkxn8a2
| 1
| -1
|
CMV: There is more reason to believe that God does not exist than to believe that he does.
1- Which god?
In this specific post I’d like to discuss the god of Christianity; Yahweh. My view, plain and simple, is that there is more evidence against the concept of God than for him.
2- What about the _____ argument?
These are all very common arguments I often see on places like r/debateanatheist. If you believe any one of these is a strawman, please mention it and I will gladly link to a post legitimately making these points.
A- The cosmological argument.
This argument states that “Anything that begins to exist must have a cause.” This is possibly the weakest but yet strongest argument for God. If anything that begins to exist must have a cause, then what caused God? And so on so forth. Most apologists reply with “Well, God is eternal. He never began to exist, he simply is.” So I make the counterpoint, “Why can’t the universe have always existed? The matter in the Big Bang could always have been there.” And I have yet to find a compelling response.
But, let’s give this argument the benefit of the doubt. It stands up PERFECTLY. There are no flaws whatsoever. So what’s the issue? This argument does not in fact lead to theism, much less Christianity specifically. This argument will only go so far as deism. You’ve shown that the universe was created, not interacted with afterwards, and much less by the god of Christianity.
B- The moral argument.
This one is just silly. It goes like this. “Morality is objective, and it cannot be so without God.” This one is incredibly easy to debunk.
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
Epicurus – Greek philosopher, BC 341-270
The Bible (and obviously God) specifically state murder is wrong, but yet we still see murder in our world today. See point above.
3- Sure you’ve shown that there isn’t any evidence FOR him, but where’s this evidence AGAINST him?
So, the Bible claims to be infallible in 2 Peter 1:19, “We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable.” Peter continues with a description of how Scripture came to be: “No prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit” (2 Peter 1:20–21). This is essentially a claim that EVERYTHING in it’s scripture is true.
https://infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/contradictions.html
And here are a few hundred contradictions in the Bible. So we’ve basically demonstrated here that the Bible is not a reliable or accurate source of information. But wait! There’s more! Not only is the Bible unable to prevent it’s OWN information consistently, it also scientifically inaccurate.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_scientific_errors
https://m.news24.com/MyNews24/The-Problem-of-the-Bible-Inaccuracies-contradictions-fallacies-scientific-issues-and-more-20120517
So if the Bible is nearly entirely inaccurate, why should we give it a single pass regarding God?
My final point is, if God is omnipotent as described in the Bible, omnipotent meaning the ability to do ANYTHING, not just as much as possible, could he create a stone so heavy even he couldn’t lift it? If yes, then he’s not omnipotent because he’s not able to lift it. If no, then he’s not omnipotent because he can’t create it.
I’m looking forward to seeing the responses below! I’m very interested to hear some counterpoints!
|
So the evidence part is what your wrong on, there may not be evidence against him but just bc there isn't any evidence against your mom being replace by an alien it doesn't mean she is and alien
|
You didn’t outline any reasons. There is the entirety of human history. For theism. There is the millions of combined personal experiences, as anecdotal as it is, it is still more than the counter argument. There is nothing of substance that is a beginning to end explanation for existence from a observable data driven secular perspective.
One is not greater than the other, unless you have observations or replicable testing. However, believing in a singularity that exists outside of the laws of physics and may have influenced our existence is both logical and reasonable.
|
94nboa
|
CMV: There is more reason to believe that God does not exist than to believe that he does.
|
1- Which god?
In this specific post I’d like to discuss the god of Christianity; Yahweh. My view, plain and simple, is that there is more evidence against the concept of God than for him.
2- What about the _____ argument?
These are all very common arguments I often see on places like r/debateanatheist. If you believe any one of these is a strawman, please mention it and I will gladly link to a post legitimately making these points.
A- The cosmological argument.
This argument states that “Anything that begins to exist must have a cause.” This is possibly the weakest but yet strongest argument for God. If anything that begins to exist must have a cause, then what caused God? And so on so forth. Most apologists reply with “Well, God is eternal. He never began to exist, he simply is.” So I make the counterpoint, “Why can’t the universe have always existed? The matter in the Big Bang could always have been there.” And I have yet to find a compelling response.
But, let’s give this argument the benefit of the doubt. It stands up PERFECTLY. There are no flaws whatsoever. So what’s the issue? This argument does not in fact lead to theism, much less Christianity specifically. This argument will only go so far as deism. You’ve shown that the universe was created, not interacted with afterwards, and much less by the god of Christianity.
B- The moral argument.
This one is just silly. It goes like this. “Morality is objective, and it cannot be so without God.” This one is incredibly easy to debunk.
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
Epicurus – Greek philosopher, BC 341-270
The Bible (and obviously God) specifically state murder is wrong, but yet we still see murder in our world today. See point above.
3- Sure you’ve shown that there isn’t any evidence FOR him, but where’s this evidence AGAINST him?
So, the Bible claims to be infallible in 2 Peter 1:19, “We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable.” Peter continues with a description of how Scripture came to be: “No prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit” (2 Peter 1:20–21). This is essentially a claim that EVERYTHING in it’s scripture is true.
https://infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/contradictions.html
And here are a few hundred contradictions in the Bible. So we’ve basically demonstrated here that the Bible is not a reliable or accurate source of information. But wait! There’s more! Not only is the Bible unable to prevent it’s OWN information consistently, it also scientifically inaccurate.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_scientific_errors
https://m.news24.com/MyNews24/The-Problem-of-the-Bible-Inaccuracies-contradictions-fallacies-scientific-issues-and-more-20120517
So if the Bible is nearly entirely inaccurate, why should we give it a single pass regarding God?
My final point is, if God is omnipotent as described in the Bible, omnipotent meaning the ability to do ANYTHING, not just as much as possible, could he create a stone so heavy even he couldn’t lift it? If yes, then he’s not omnipotent because he’s not able to lift it. If no, then he’s not omnipotent because he can’t create it.
I’m looking forward to seeing the responses below! I’m very interested to hear some counterpoints!
| 1,533,424,309
|
Ned4sped
|
e3m9y4i
|
e3m9vu1
| 3
| -2
|
CMV: Airplane seats on short flights should not be able to recline at all.
No one likes it when someone on your flight reclines Infront of you. It limits the already limited space for your legs and it's generally a pain in the ass. However on longer flights (>5 hr) I see how It might be nice to do it.
My problem is with people who recline on shorter flights and I bet that other people do too. There is no real need to recline on those shorter flights.
Companies usually have different planes for different types of routes, so they should lock the seats for the planes That do the shorter routes so no one can recline on them while leaving the other planes untouched.
|
So if I understand correctly, your argument is that for short flights the happiness of the person behind the seat should be weighed greater than the person in the seat, but for longer flights the person in the seat takes precedence? That is to say, having a reclined position is more worthwhile for a longer amount of time, but having more leg room is more worthwhile for a shorter amount of time?
I’m trying to understand your logic in thinking this way. I’m a little confused on how the length of time has to do with it. Is it because on long haul flights its more likely for people to sleep?
|
The retooling necessary would be very expensive. Instead the attendants can announce the policy of no reclining. The problem is that more people will be pissed off at the loss of a freedom than people will be happy with the extra legroom.
|
86z27p
|
CMV: Airplane seats on short flights should not be able to recline at all.
|
No one likes it when someone on your flight reclines Infront of you. It limits the already limited space for your legs and it's generally a pain in the ass. However on longer flights (>5 hr) I see how It might be nice to do it.
My problem is with people who recline on shorter flights and I bet that other people do too. There is no real need to recline on those shorter flights.
Companies usually have different planes for different types of routes, so they should lock the seats for the planes That do the shorter routes so no one can recline on them while leaving the other planes untouched.
| 1,521,958,541
|
tk2a
|
dw8y7pj
|
dw8y30m
| 9
| 3
|
CMV: Climate Change is just another one of Earth's climate cycles (think Ice Age) and is only a short-term problem.
First of all, I should mention that I am not 100% climate change skeptic. In fact, the reason that I am posting this is because I know many people who believe that climate change is not the result of human actions (I live in Houston) and there are some points which seem pretty valid to me. And with Hurricane Harvey unleashing unprecedented amounts of water on Houston, I'm truly starting to realize the detrimental potential of climate change.
With that being said, I posted this CMV because I feel that this is a relatively legitimate counter-argument to man-made climate change, and allow me to explain.
After looking up how the Ice Age begun and ended, the first link to pop up showed me that changes in solar radiation a long time ago produced less heat for the Earth and hence caused the mass freezing of water around the globe. So is it not possible that the sun is undergoing some sort of change and releasing larger amounts of radiation which is in turn warming up the Earth?
And I don't want you pointing me to CO2 charts and their correlation with climate change. I, and the people providing these counter-arguments, are already aware of these charts. Don't explain why you're right, explain why I'm wrong. Change my (this) view.
EDIT: wording
|
First off, this post is at risk of deletion if you are trying to argue devil's advocate or don't really believe your argument.
Anyway, the solar radiation argument is a denialist favorite, and it's dealt with here: https://www.skepticalscience.com/solar-activity-sunspots-global-warming.htm
Basically, we CAN measure solar radiation output, and we do. We intimately know how the formation of sunspots affects those output levels. Solar output has actually reduced slightly in recent years, while the planet continues to warm.
We gather all sorts of measurements you might not consider, such as albedo (reflectivity), volcanic activity, and interplanetary readings. Scientists have already considered hundreds of possibilities to explain the warming data, but none fit better than the rapid rise of anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions.
|
Take a look at [this](https://xkcd.com/1732/). From what we know, the quickest recorded sustained climate change over the past 22,000 years has historically been on the order of 1 degree Celsius per 1000 years. Meanwhile, the climate has increased about 1 degree in the last 50 years. For the "natural climate cycle" argument to hold water, you have to explain why the climate is currently warming at a rate **20 times** the highest previously on record.
(Also, per Rule B you actually have to hold the belief you want changed, so this might get deleted)
|
6xrkgw
|
CMV: Climate Change is just another one of Earth's climate cycles (think Ice Age) and is only a short-term problem.
|
First of all, I should mention that I am not 100% climate change skeptic. In fact, the reason that I am posting this is because I know many people who believe that climate change is not the result of human actions (I live in Houston) and there are some points which seem pretty valid to me. And with Hurricane Harvey unleashing unprecedented amounts of water on Houston, I'm truly starting to realize the detrimental potential of climate change.
With that being said, I posted this CMV because I feel that this is a relatively legitimate counter-argument to man-made climate change, and allow me to explain.
After looking up how the Ice Age begun and ended, the first link to pop up showed me that changes in solar radiation a long time ago produced less heat for the Earth and hence caused the mass freezing of water around the globe. So is it not possible that the sun is undergoing some sort of change and releasing larger amounts of radiation which is in turn warming up the Earth?
And I don't want you pointing me to CO2 charts and their correlation with climate change. I, and the people providing these counter-arguments, are already aware of these charts. Don't explain why you're right, explain why I'm wrong. Change my (this) view.
EDIT: wording
| 1,504,417,970
|
monkeymalek
|
dmhzkv4
|
dmhz55w
| 99
| 29
|
CMV: Terms such as "Homophobia" and "Transphobia" should be renamed or done away with.
The Latin root "phobia" refers to a fear or panic in response to stimuli. However, terms such as "Transphobia" are not used in context of people being genuinely afraid of transgenders, but rather used as an insult simply to call people who do not agree with the prospect of changing your gender. This post isn't about whether or not you can do so or whether or not homosexuality is okay, it is about the specific word usage of homophobia and transphobia.
Most people you will encounter and have discussions with are not afraid of transgenders or homosexuals. In fact, you would be hard pressed to find someone genuinely afraid of them. This is not to say that there are no people who may discriminate against those people, but that the number of people who genuinely fear transgenders and homosexuals is way too low, especially in proportion to everyone else, to justify the widespread usage of words like trans/homophobia.
|
First off, *-phobia* is Greek, not Latin.
> However, terms such as "Transphobia" are not used in context of people being genuinely afraid of transgenders, but rather used as an insult simply to call people who do not agree with the prospect of changing your gender.
The hysteria around their responses to trans people indicates otherwise. Take a look at [this recent anti-trans ad](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYpko86x6GU), for example, and tell me that's not rooted in fear.
Obvious fear isn't good politics, so of course this gets wrapped up in "logic" (by which I mean "blatant lies about what trans people are and how transition works"). But fear is at the core.
Remember, elected officials - people popular enough to get a majority of votes in their districts - regularly spout off about how natural disasters are the result of too much acceptance. In fact, there was a story on this just today. Chik-Fil-A, a pretty median religious-right company, once funded organizations like the now-defunct Exodus International (whose founder, big surprise, turned out to be gay) as they campaigned in the third world, making claims about how gay men were going to prey on children in order to turn them gay and give them AIDS. Nearly every month there's a new piece by one of a few anti-trans crusaders that is full of speculative fears about rapes of young girls and an epidemic of children deceived into being trans - yet neither is supported by any evidence, and in fact ample evidence exists to *dis*prove both.
These are either signs of fear, or signs of a knowledge that they're manipulating fearful people.
|
Someone else mentioned hydrophobia and halophilia, so I won't go on those.
>The Latin root "phobia" refers to a fear or panic in response to stimuli.
>Most people you will encounter and have discussions with are not afraid of transgenders or homosexuals.
Well, would you argue that they have some sort of visceral reaction to lgbtq folks? That's gotta count for something. People who feel some type of way about lgbtq+ people "fear" that the normalcy of their day will be infringed upon. They fear that their silence on the subject will be regarded as complicity (so they speak down about it). They fear thay they'll have to change the foundations of their mind that assert that heterosexuality and cisgenderness are the norm.
This fear isn't one that would land in the DSM of course, but labeling it as a fear makes it more possible to deconstruct.
Fear is an old old emotion. Almost all vertebrates have some brain structure related to fear. When we frame homophobia and transphobia as fears we send the message that these people need to evolve.
|
94nwf4
|
CMV: Terms such as "Homophobia" and "Transphobia" should be renamed or done away with.
|
The Latin root "phobia" refers to a fear or panic in response to stimuli. However, terms such as "Transphobia" are not used in context of people being genuinely afraid of transgenders, but rather used as an insult simply to call people who do not agree with the prospect of changing your gender. This post isn't about whether or not you can do so or whether or not homosexuality is okay, it is about the specific word usage of homophobia and transphobia.
Most people you will encounter and have discussions with are not afraid of transgenders or homosexuals. In fact, you would be hard pressed to find someone genuinely afraid of them. This is not to say that there are no people who may discriminate against those people, but that the number of people who genuinely fear transgenders and homosexuals is way too low, especially in proportion to everyone else, to justify the widespread usage of words like trans/homophobia.
| 1,533,429,540
|
TheRougishSmithy
|
e3mgdgy
|
e3mfuhc
| 7
| 4
|
CMV: The idea that people only think audio from another language sounds better because you can't understand it and if you did it would be obvious it's poorly done is bullshit.
[This is a song by yu-yu in English.](https://streamable.com/ov6zr) This is a song by yu-yu, the same singer, [in Japanese.](https://streamable.com/khy2v) I prefer the English song out of these two individual tracks.
[This is a song by Lyn Inaizumi in Japanese.](https://streamable.com/gezuh) This is a song by Lyn Inaizumi [in English.](https://streamable.com/97kyr) Between these two, although they come very close, I slightly prefer the track in Japanese, simply because I like the overall song better.
[This is a song by Psychic Lover in Japanese.](https://streamable.com/agevd) This is **the same song** by **the same band** [in English.](https://streamable.com/em1qo) For no reason other than understanding more of the lyrics in the latter, I find it preferable out of the two.
All of these above are the same people with their same voice across languages. Obviously the simple ability I have to even tell it's the same person that I expect *anyone else to possess* if you aren't deaf in spite of the different levels of understanding I have for each language means there are qualities to the voice of an individual that are appealing for reasons beyond my level of comprehension for either.
[Here comes another video clip.](https://streamable.com/ohrll) These are fighting game grunts. That's it. No real words are spoken. However, their voice actors are different, the first being the one who did so for the English dub, the latter being the one who voiced him in Japanese. As far as my ears are concerned, **they are obviously different,** The former sounds rougher while the latter sounds younger. Of course this is the case. These are different voices from different people. How people receive sound and interpret it is not bound to understanding of language.
[This is a regular Japanese guy who has lived most of his life in Japan and continues to struggle to some minor degree in English speaking normally.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QH4yr245k0) [The same guy speaking in mostly fluent English.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XW-XdDe6j0) Yeah, he sounds different. I can tell he's more comfortable speaking his native language, as proficient as he is in his secondary one. There are different accents employed but it's still the same guy and I like hearing him either way.
So what the fuck is with the presumption anyone's reason for having more interest in sound spoken in another language is on the basis of their own incompetence? I don't even have consistent preferences for which language is employed on the same voice from the same person. If you've gone around in sub vs dub anime wars and videogames with differing audio tracks you know exactly who the people I'm talking about are. Some idiots go as far as to say that it's not how the real language sounds, at which point *the intended audience wouldn't even be able to understand it.*
I watched Infernal Affairs a long while ago. If you thought about how some people talk about Cantonese they should seem like they are bitching constantly to the untrained ear. I had no such issue with the actors in the movie for all of their dialogue. If they're relaxed they're relaxed. If they're angry they're angry. If they're tired they're tired. If they talk like familiar friends they talk like familiar friends. It's *obvious.* I have no reason to presume there's going to be a massive cultural disparity that divorces them from presenting their general humanity.
|
It would be ridiculous to jump to that assumption by default, but there are examples where it's true. For example, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon did well with western audiences but was poorly received in China because the mostly Cantonese speaking cast was stumbling through the dialogue in Mandarin.
|
This can be some an example of cognitive bias, where the first information you get is the one that rings most true with you. In this case the first version you hear of the song is the one you most likely will like the most. This doesn't always apply of course, but if the quality of the songs are simiu enough, the first impression is often the best.
|
a8lmpu
|
CMV: The idea that people only think audio from another language sounds better because you can't understand it and if you did it would be obvious it's poorly done is bullshit.
|
[This is a song by yu-yu in English.](https://streamable.com/ov6zr) This is a song by yu-yu, the same singer, [in Japanese.](https://streamable.com/khy2v) I prefer the English song out of these two individual tracks.
[This is a song by Lyn Inaizumi in Japanese.](https://streamable.com/gezuh) This is a song by Lyn Inaizumi [in English.](https://streamable.com/97kyr) Between these two, although they come very close, I slightly prefer the track in Japanese, simply because I like the overall song better.
[This is a song by Psychic Lover in Japanese.](https://streamable.com/agevd) This is **the same song** by **the same band** [in English.](https://streamable.com/em1qo) For no reason other than understanding more of the lyrics in the latter, I find it preferable out of the two.
All of these above are the same people with their same voice across languages. Obviously the simple ability I have to even tell it's the same person that I expect *anyone else to possess* if you aren't deaf in spite of the different levels of understanding I have for each language means there are qualities to the voice of an individual that are appealing for reasons beyond my level of comprehension for either.
[Here comes another video clip.](https://streamable.com/ohrll) These are fighting game grunts. That's it. No real words are spoken. However, their voice actors are different, the first being the one who did so for the English dub, the latter being the one who voiced him in Japanese. As far as my ears are concerned, **they are obviously different,** The former sounds rougher while the latter sounds younger. Of course this is the case. These are different voices from different people. How people receive sound and interpret it is not bound to understanding of language.
[This is a regular Japanese guy who has lived most of his life in Japan and continues to struggle to some minor degree in English speaking normally.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QH4yr245k0) [The same guy speaking in mostly fluent English.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XW-XdDe6j0) Yeah, he sounds different. I can tell he's more comfortable speaking his native language, as proficient as he is in his secondary one. There are different accents employed but it's still the same guy and I like hearing him either way.
So what the fuck is with the presumption anyone's reason for having more interest in sound spoken in another language is on the basis of their own incompetence? I don't even have consistent preferences for which language is employed on the same voice from the same person. If you've gone around in sub vs dub anime wars and videogames with differing audio tracks you know exactly who the people I'm talking about are. Some idiots go as far as to say that it's not how the real language sounds, at which point *the intended audience wouldn't even be able to understand it.*
I watched Infernal Affairs a long while ago. If you thought about how some people talk about Cantonese they should seem like they are bitching constantly to the untrained ear. I had no such issue with the actors in the movie for all of their dialogue. If they're relaxed they're relaxed. If they're angry they're angry. If they're tired they're tired. If they talk like familiar friends they talk like familiar friends. It's *obvious.* I have no reason to presume there's going to be a massive cultural disparity that divorces them from presenting their general humanity.
| 1,545,492,473
|
[deleted]
|
ecbqcn6
|
ecbozue
| 3
| 1
|
CMV: With the rise of automation and AI, there will eventually come a time where a universal basic income is necessary.
Throughout human history, advances in technology have allowed workers to be more productive. For instance, the steel plow allowed a farmer to farm much more land and the factory allowed a chain of workers to produce much more than they ever could on their own. In relatively recent history, many of these advances have caused job loss in their fields. The combine harvester, fertilizer, and many other staples of the modern farm have made farmers less than 2% of the population in the US, down from over half a century ago. Improvements in shipping have allowed many factory jobs to be shipped overseas where labor is cheaper, while at home, domestic factory jobs that remained were replaced by robotic assembly lines that are safer and much faster than hiring actual workers.
(Side note, I will be using the 5-sector model of the economy, described [here](https://www.thoughtco.com/sectors-of-the-economy-1435795), because it represents what jobs in the future are likely to be).
Thankfully, low-skill workers have always been able to find jobs. When the Primary sector decayed, they moved to manufacturing jobs. When the Secondary sector moved overseas, they moved to service jobs. Because of human adaptability, there have always been jobs that are easier for a low-skill human to work than a machine.
However, with the rise of information technologies, many jobs that employ millions of people will soon be at risk. [Retail clerks, for instance, are already growing obsolete.](https://www.theverge.com/2016/12/5/13842592/amazon-go-new-cashier-less-convenience-store) Many other jobs that can be handled by low-skill workers will be quick to follow. [Fast food workers](https://techcrunch.com/2017/03/07/meet-flippy-a-burger-grilling-robot-from-miso-robotics-and-caliburger/), [construction workers](http://money.cnn.com/2017/05/02/technology/3d-printed-building-mit/index.html), [taxi drivers](https://www.theverge.com/2017/2/21/14687346/uber-self-driving-car-arizona-pilot-ducey-california), and many more may soon find themselves out of work with no place to go. Most of the new and rising job markets, such as in web design, data analysis, and medicine require more than just a high school diploma. While there are still low-skill jobs that would be tough to automate, there will be a shortage of jobs that don't require a college degree.
While many of the problems I mentioned so far can be solved with more college education, it gets much worse when you throw machine learning into the mix.
Occupations such as administrative support, accounting and other financial services, data analysis, doctors, and even middle management can be automated through machine learning algorithms already in the works. It wouldn't be too far-fetched to assume that even Quaternary sector jobs could be automated by AI. Given the rate at which AI is advancing, it's likely that artificial intelligence will replace humans in every role that it can because it's cheaper, faster, and more effective at doing the same job.
This brings us to the universal basic income. Aside from service jobs that require human-to-human interaction, human creativity, or moral judgment and Quinary-sector jobs (I sincerely hope humans would not let AIs replace CEOs or politicians), there would be few jobs left for humans to fill. With a growing population, it's likely that there won't be enough jobs for everyone.
However, there would be way more than enough goods and services to go around. Fully automated farms and factories could get products to consumers with almost no human intervention while AIs and robots could provide people with nearly every service they could ever need. However, to pay for this abundance of services, people need money. With only a small fraction of the population in the workforce, most people would not be earning the money they'd need to pay for these services.
This doesn't make any sense. If there are more goods and services to go around than humanity could ever need, then everyone should be able to buy them. A universal basic income would be the only thing short of full communism that could make this possible.
Unfortunately, this economic system would be almost communist in nature. Is there anything else that can be done? If so, Change My View!
(Of course, none of this would matter if a cataclysm or dystopia happens and everyone is fighting for their survival. Let's just assume we make it through the next century with the peace and prosperity we have known and we adapt to or solve Climate Change.)
EDIT: This been up for about 4 hours, and while it's been good talking to you all, it's past midnight for me. Many of you have made some good points and will probably continue to do so for several more hours, so I will respond to them once I wake up in the morning.
EDIT 2: Sorry for the inactivity, I've been at an amusement park all day and it's hard to debate on my phone. I will read through your comments and respond from 8pm-12am EDT.
EDIT 3: After reading through the posts, I have come across a lot of good ideas. Many of you proposed alternative solutions to a UBI. There were also some plausible scenarios given where automation simply isn't worth the economic collapse, so there aren't enough poor people for a UBI to be necessary. My favorite was the idea that humans should merge themselves with computers rather than let AIs run rampant. Ironically, Elon Musk (who thinks that a UBI will be necessary) [actually has a venture devoted towards merging mind and machine.](https://www.theverge.com/2017/3/27/15077864/elon-musk-neuralink-brain-computer-interface-ai-cyborgs)
|
AI takes over peoples' jobs because robots are cheaper. Cheaper production of equally good goods means a cheaper end cost. The cost of living will decrease as AI takes more of our jobs. The solution may be to decrease the length of the traditional workweek over time so that most people have jobs.
|
Without massive, overreaching government control, everything will still have a cost. You can't make a product for negative money, therefore there is no incentive for companies or individuals to provide that product for free.
If everyone is getting some money(eg, welfare payments) to afford these things, then that's pretty darn close to universal income.
|
6qkn55
|
CMV: With the rise of automation and AI, there will eventually come a time where a universal basic income is necessary.
|
Throughout human history, advances in technology have allowed workers to be more productive. For instance, the steel plow allowed a farmer to farm much more land and the factory allowed a chain of workers to produce much more than they ever could on their own. In relatively recent history, many of these advances have caused job loss in their fields. The combine harvester, fertilizer, and many other staples of the modern farm have made farmers less than 2% of the population in the US, down from over half a century ago. Improvements in shipping have allowed many factory jobs to be shipped overseas where labor is cheaper, while at home, domestic factory jobs that remained were replaced by robotic assembly lines that are safer and much faster than hiring actual workers.
(Side note, I will be using the 5-sector model of the economy, described [here](https://www.thoughtco.com/sectors-of-the-economy-1435795), because it represents what jobs in the future are likely to be).
Thankfully, low-skill workers have always been able to find jobs. When the Primary sector decayed, they moved to manufacturing jobs. When the Secondary sector moved overseas, they moved to service jobs. Because of human adaptability, there have always been jobs that are easier for a low-skill human to work than a machine.
However, with the rise of information technologies, many jobs that employ millions of people will soon be at risk. [Retail clerks, for instance, are already growing obsolete.](https://www.theverge.com/2016/12/5/13842592/amazon-go-new-cashier-less-convenience-store) Many other jobs that can be handled by low-skill workers will be quick to follow. [Fast food workers](https://techcrunch.com/2017/03/07/meet-flippy-a-burger-grilling-robot-from-miso-robotics-and-caliburger/), [construction workers](http://money.cnn.com/2017/05/02/technology/3d-printed-building-mit/index.html), [taxi drivers](https://www.theverge.com/2017/2/21/14687346/uber-self-driving-car-arizona-pilot-ducey-california), and many more may soon find themselves out of work with no place to go. Most of the new and rising job markets, such as in web design, data analysis, and medicine require more than just a high school diploma. While there are still low-skill jobs that would be tough to automate, there will be a shortage of jobs that don't require a college degree.
While many of the problems I mentioned so far can be solved with more college education, it gets much worse when you throw machine learning into the mix.
Occupations such as administrative support, accounting and other financial services, data analysis, doctors, and even middle management can be automated through machine learning algorithms already in the works. It wouldn't be too far-fetched to assume that even Quaternary sector jobs could be automated by AI. Given the rate at which AI is advancing, it's likely that artificial intelligence will replace humans in every role that it can because it's cheaper, faster, and more effective at doing the same job.
This brings us to the universal basic income. Aside from service jobs that require human-to-human interaction, human creativity, or moral judgment and Quinary-sector jobs (I sincerely hope humans would not let AIs replace CEOs or politicians), there would be few jobs left for humans to fill. With a growing population, it's likely that there won't be enough jobs for everyone.
However, there would be way more than enough goods and services to go around. Fully automated farms and factories could get products to consumers with almost no human intervention while AIs and robots could provide people with nearly every service they could ever need. However, to pay for this abundance of services, people need money. With only a small fraction of the population in the workforce, most people would not be earning the money they'd need to pay for these services.
This doesn't make any sense. If there are more goods and services to go around than humanity could ever need, then everyone should be able to buy them. A universal basic income would be the only thing short of full communism that could make this possible.
Unfortunately, this economic system would be almost communist in nature. Is there anything else that can be done? If so, Change My View!
(Of course, none of this would matter if a cataclysm or dystopia happens and everyone is fighting for their survival. Let's just assume we make it through the next century with the peace and prosperity we have known and we adapt to or solve Climate Change.)
EDIT: This been up for about 4 hours, and while it's been good talking to you all, it's past midnight for me. Many of you have made some good points and will probably continue to do so for several more hours, so I will respond to them once I wake up in the morning.
EDIT 2: Sorry for the inactivity, I've been at an amusement park all day and it's hard to debate on my phone. I will read through your comments and respond from 8pm-12am EDT.
EDIT 3: After reading through the posts, I have come across a lot of good ideas. Many of you proposed alternative solutions to a UBI. There were also some plausible scenarios given where automation simply isn't worth the economic collapse, so there aren't enough poor people for a UBI to be necessary. My favorite was the idea that humans should merge themselves with computers rather than let AIs run rampant. Ironically, Elon Musk (who thinks that a UBI will be necessary) [actually has a venture devoted towards merging mind and machine.](https://www.theverge.com/2017/3/27/15077864/elon-musk-neuralink-brain-computer-interface-ai-cyborgs)
| 1,501,456,652
|
TechnostarBTD5
|
dky07sn
|
dkxzpeb
| 196
| 1
|
CMV: It is impossible to move to a single payer in the US, unless we are OK with a recession in the short-term and availability of healthcare being diminished
With ACA staying as the law of the land and many advocating to move to a single payer system, I started to think how would we exactly implement this. More importantly, what would be the implications of moving from the current system to a Single Payer. It seems that the headache of removing health insurance companies from the economy would be hurtful in the short term and we might not recover from it at all.
Pros: Now even though we would lose a lot of productivity geared toward health insurance we would be getting some benefits. Single Payer means that the government would pay providers 56 to 80 cents of what insurers currently pay them. That's a huge discount for the patients and the government. (https://www.forbes.com/sites/merrillmatthews/2015/01/05/doctors-face-a-huge-medicare-and-medicaid-pay-cut-in-2015/#7f651e923173)
Cons:
1) Economic downturn due to the elimination of healthcare insurance. Removing all insurance companies would cost up to 1M jobs (using United Healthcare as a proxy 230K EEs, and 20% of industry). If we were to say overnight that 1M people would lose their jobs that would impact the economy significantly, especially considering that these folks are generally paid significantly more than minimum wage. Using United Health care again as a proxy, that number is closer to $150B ($28B in Operating costs). In other words firing all these people would cost the economy $150B per year. Some cities like Hartford CT would just be devastated. I understand that some people would get a job with the government, or other private companies, but let's be honest the transition would be brutal.
2) Even though we stand to get a discount by moving to Single Payer, it is not likely it will be possible to have all providers agreeing with 20-40% reduction in pay. For example nurses who use to make $80K are going to now make $50-60K, or we will see less nurses available by firing them, or we will see less nurses because they won't want lower salaries. The last two situations will lead to less healthcare regardless, and longer lines. If we see such situation in the first 2 years of implementing single payer it will be its death. The other option for the government would be to pay exactly insurer rates, that would mean higher increase in taxation that we would anticipate.
3) Taxation will be much higher than people think: If the government were to take on the rest of healthcare (currently paying for 46% via Medicare / Medicaid), it would cost and additional $1.6 Trillion per year (https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics-Data-and-Systems/Statistics-Trends-and-Reports/NationalHealthExpendData/downloads/highlights.pdf). That's about $12K per worker (128M US workforce). This is huge. I make fairly good money but I would freak out having to pay such a huge bill for healthcare. My employer would need to pay me $10-15K more money to replace that loss in salary. I don't think all employers will do so, and more importantly, the cost of healthcare won't match over time.
Overall, I just don't see it happening. This seems like a political disaster at least in the first 3-4 years of implementation. I want to cheer for Singe Payer by seeing its success abroad, but it seems we are too far down the rabbit hole to do Single Payer in the US. Let me know what you think.
FYI: I am not considering whether the US government would be capable of administering a program like this. I am assuming it would be as good as the current Medicare/Medicaid programs.
Definitions: single payer means that anyone can walk to a hospital and get treatment, the Government (Federal or State) would pay for all the costs. I know there are slight differences but I would like if we can limit it to this definition: no taxpayer will pay for healthcare when sick, all the payments are made through taxation. Additionally, the government administers the system, no health insurance involved in providing health care (at least basic health care that we all want to benefit)
|
>Another point to note- while we will have decreased economic activity in the insurance sector we will have increased economic activity in the healthcare sector. This means more jobs for doctors, nurses, aides and other related services. The ACA basically funded a remodel of my SO's hospital (a nurse practitioner) by increasing the number of paying customers.
I am not following this 100%. Removing insurance jobs means insurance business productivity equaling to zero. More healthcare economic activity would happen only if you believe that currently healthcare professionals are under-productive, which I'd be surprised. Given we would have single payer wouldn't that mean a more money spent by the government if providers become so busy in the short term?
>As to the practicality, remember that these things don't happen overnight. There would be transition periods. Actually, the best way to do it would go public option (medicare for all) and slowly increase its scope. This avoids the shock to the markets and allows for a smooth transition
That's what I am looking for. What would it look like in practicality? If I am a shareholder of an insurance company and learned that we are transitioning to Single Payer wouldn't it make more sense to liquidate that company and take all the dividends, and hence collapsing the current system faster?
|
Regarding job elimination, wouldn't this just be the elimination of unnecessary jobs? If *more* people are getting *cheaper* healthcare with the involvement of *fewer people*, wouldn't this make the economy healthier? The healthcare industry would be less bloated and more efficient, and in the long run other sectors of the economy would benefit from cheaper, more-skilled labour. No?
|
6qkcwe
|
CMV: It is impossible to move to a single payer in the US, unless we are OK with a recession in the short-term and availability of healthcare being diminished
|
With ACA staying as the law of the land and many advocating to move to a single payer system, I started to think how would we exactly implement this. More importantly, what would be the implications of moving from the current system to a Single Payer. It seems that the headache of removing health insurance companies from the economy would be hurtful in the short term and we might not recover from it at all.
Pros: Now even though we would lose a lot of productivity geared toward health insurance we would be getting some benefits. Single Payer means that the government would pay providers 56 to 80 cents of what insurers currently pay them. That's a huge discount for the patients and the government. (https://www.forbes.com/sites/merrillmatthews/2015/01/05/doctors-face-a-huge-medicare-and-medicaid-pay-cut-in-2015/#7f651e923173)
Cons:
1) Economic downturn due to the elimination of healthcare insurance. Removing all insurance companies would cost up to 1M jobs (using United Healthcare as a proxy 230K EEs, and 20% of industry). If we were to say overnight that 1M people would lose their jobs that would impact the economy significantly, especially considering that these folks are generally paid significantly more than minimum wage. Using United Health care again as a proxy, that number is closer to $150B ($28B in Operating costs). In other words firing all these people would cost the economy $150B per year. Some cities like Hartford CT would just be devastated. I understand that some people would get a job with the government, or other private companies, but let's be honest the transition would be brutal.
2) Even though we stand to get a discount by moving to Single Payer, it is not likely it will be possible to have all providers agreeing with 20-40% reduction in pay. For example nurses who use to make $80K are going to now make $50-60K, or we will see less nurses available by firing them, or we will see less nurses because they won't want lower salaries. The last two situations will lead to less healthcare regardless, and longer lines. If we see such situation in the first 2 years of implementing single payer it will be its death. The other option for the government would be to pay exactly insurer rates, that would mean higher increase in taxation that we would anticipate.
3) Taxation will be much higher than people think: If the government were to take on the rest of healthcare (currently paying for 46% via Medicare / Medicaid), it would cost and additional $1.6 Trillion per year (https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics-Data-and-Systems/Statistics-Trends-and-Reports/NationalHealthExpendData/downloads/highlights.pdf). That's about $12K per worker (128M US workforce). This is huge. I make fairly good money but I would freak out having to pay such a huge bill for healthcare. My employer would need to pay me $10-15K more money to replace that loss in salary. I don't think all employers will do so, and more importantly, the cost of healthcare won't match over time.
Overall, I just don't see it happening. This seems like a political disaster at least in the first 3-4 years of implementation. I want to cheer for Singe Payer by seeing its success abroad, but it seems we are too far down the rabbit hole to do Single Payer in the US. Let me know what you think.
FYI: I am not considering whether the US government would be capable of administering a program like this. I am assuming it would be as good as the current Medicare/Medicaid programs.
Definitions: single payer means that anyone can walk to a hospital and get treatment, the Government (Federal or State) would pay for all the costs. I know there are slight differences but I would like if we can limit it to this definition: no taxpayer will pay for healthcare when sick, all the payments are made through taxation. Additionally, the government administers the system, no health insurance involved in providing health care (at least basic health care that we all want to benefit)
| 1,501,453,543
|
johnniewelker
|
dkxyyc7
|
dkxyb4r
| 2
| 1
|
CMV: the Dark Knight trilogy is much better than the marvel movies.
TDK trilogy was mind blowing. For starters, the cast is exceptional. Batman and all of the villains are portrayed as being more realistic, which makes it much more realistic in a thrilling/horror sense.
All marvel movies today feel like a cash generated flick. There’s not much depth, especially in the newer ones such as black panther, etc. I get that there’s 18 movies compared to 3, so there’s a lead up to a big movie (infinity war) but even then, the trilogy as a whole was much better than infinity war.
The obvious exceptional part of TDK cast was heath ledger. There’s just not ANY villains in ANY marvel movie that compare to him. Not even close. He played such a psychopath and his method acting and improvisation was the best I have ever seen in a movie. The make up was amazing as it wasn’t too comical. He PERFECTED the walk, laugh, mindset and everything the joker has to offer.
Tom Hardy was exceptional as Bane. Instead of being the veiny, lab rat that the comic books show, he’s portrayed as a beefy guy that can cause terror, which is realistic and makes it that much scarier. The destruction he caused was amazing. The mask was an awesome touch, although at times his voice was hard to understand the first time around.
Christian Bale was a good Batman. His voice in the first two movies were meh, but TDKR figured it out to be less raspy so that you could understand him. Overall, he played Bruce Wayne/Batman great and was memorable.
Don’t get me wrong, I like the marvel movies. Infinity war was a great movie. I love guardians. Maybe I’m inclined to the realism that TDK trilogy presents compared to the extra sci-fi found in the marcel movies, but overall I find the trilogy to have much better depth, acting, and plot.
|
>All marvel movies today feel like a cash generated flick. There’s not much depth, especially in the newer ones such as black panther, etc.
I'm going to contest you on this point. *Black Panther* deals with a lot of themes, including African heritage in today's world, traditionalism, colonialism vs. isolationism, and revolution vs. incremental reform. [This video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjqOCOAGTHw) is 14 minutes long, but it dissects these themes in the film better than I could.
*Infinity War* could easily have been a giant punch-fest, and in many respects it was, but it actually has a bit more going on philosophically than at first meets the eye. Killing off half of the life in the universe wouldn't truly solve overpopulation, but let's just assume for a minute that it will. Broadly speaking, we've got Thanos representing pure utilitarianism and the Avengers representing deontology. Thanos is willing to do whatever it takes to benefit the most people, even if that means genocide. The Avengers generally abide by more Kantian categorical impreatives: sacrificing a life is wrong in and of itself, no matter the consequence (recall Captain America's line about trading lives). Even within the Avengers, we've got the split between romanticism (Captain America and Black Panther running into glorious battle with the forces of Thanos) and rationalism (Iron Man trying to out-strategize Thanos to prevent him from obtaining the Time Stone) as approaches to counter Thanos. By having Thanos win the film seems to suggest that both the passion of Rogers and T'Challa and the logical thinking of Stark are necessary to accomplish one's goals.
And I haven't even touched the theme of fatherhood in *Infinity War*; here's [another video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72QQsWm7yFk) addressing it.
|
Would you claim it’s better than all marvel movies, or just marvel in general? If it’s the former, then I’ll argue that the original Iron man is the best big-budget superhero movie. If it’s the latter, then I have to agree with you (there are some marvel movies that I just can’t defend)
|
94nue5
|
CMV: the Dark Knight trilogy is much better than the marvel movies.
|
TDK trilogy was mind blowing. For starters, the cast is exceptional. Batman and all of the villains are portrayed as being more realistic, which makes it much more realistic in a thrilling/horror sense.
All marvel movies today feel like a cash generated flick. There’s not much depth, especially in the newer ones such as black panther, etc. I get that there’s 18 movies compared to 3, so there’s a lead up to a big movie (infinity war) but even then, the trilogy as a whole was much better than infinity war.
The obvious exceptional part of TDK cast was heath ledger. There’s just not ANY villains in ANY marvel movie that compare to him. Not even close. He played such a psychopath and his method acting and improvisation was the best I have ever seen in a movie. The make up was amazing as it wasn’t too comical. He PERFECTED the walk, laugh, mindset and everything the joker has to offer.
Tom Hardy was exceptional as Bane. Instead of being the veiny, lab rat that the comic books show, he’s portrayed as a beefy guy that can cause terror, which is realistic and makes it that much scarier. The destruction he caused was amazing. The mask was an awesome touch, although at times his voice was hard to understand the first time around.
Christian Bale was a good Batman. His voice in the first two movies were meh, but TDKR figured it out to be less raspy so that you could understand him. Overall, he played Bruce Wayne/Batman great and was memorable.
Don’t get me wrong, I like the marvel movies. Infinity war was a great movie. I love guardians. Maybe I’m inclined to the realism that TDK trilogy presents compared to the extra sci-fi found in the marcel movies, but overall I find the trilogy to have much better depth, acting, and plot.
| 1,533,428,997
|
stabler22
|
e3mfvz7
|
e3me98l
| 6
| 2
|
CMV: It should not be considered offensive to associate black people with fried chicken or watermelon.
While fried chicken's history in the US has ties to slavery, it is in fact a very popular dish, enjoyed by people of every race and class, and no longer has the connotation of cheap, poor people food or food made from discarded scraps of meat if it ever was. It is a positive association then, if unhealthy, but so is eating tons of red meat and people often venerate steak eating as some kind of desirable tough male activity.
Watermelon is also very popular. In 2017, [it was the 6th most popular fruit](https://www.pma.com/content/articles/2017/05/top-20-fruits-and-vegetables-sold-in-the-us) by volume sold in the US. It doesn't have any negative connotations on its own that I've ever heard of, unlike some fruits with negative metaphors, euphemisms, or imagery (ie. banana/eggplants are sometimes used as a penis substitute, the word "lemon" can be used as a synonym for something disappointing, avocados sometimes seen dismissively as hippie food).
However, when you associate black people with eating fried chicken and watermelon, the automatic reaction is that its offensive. Invite a black person to a BBQ and tell him "we'll have fried chicken and watermelon!" and watch them get offended. If a corporation, unless its KFC or Popeye's, shows black people enthusiastically eating fried chicken, they would be excoriated.
My contention is that because the foods themselves are popular and tasty and universally loved, people should stop being offended by the association of a specific group of people to those foods. While it might be annoying if you're black and someone automatically assumes you like those foods, it should be an annoyance borne from repeated inaccuracy rather than assumed malice.
For example, if someone assumes I'm smart and I'm not, I'll be annoyed if I keep getting asked to solve math problems, but I'd be in the wrong if I get annoyed solely because people think I'm smart, I should feel at least flattered. A similar mistake would be the perception that black men have larger penises. Sure, it would suck if you're a black male with a short or average penis, that might cause some awkwardness when you are with a woman for the first time, but the association itself is positive even if a specific black man can't live up to it.
I'm also not saying this will work in all cases. There are absolutely negative associations society has on some groups and people should be taught not to make those because they actually harm people. Positive associations are helpful even if not every person in that group is accurately described by it. At worse, the association of black people with fried chicken and watermelon is neutral if you don't care for those foods, and should not be reacted to as racist.
|
It’s just better to make as few assumptions based on race as possible, even if they are neutral, or positive, or even statistically significant. People like you more if you treat them as individuals, not as representatives of a group. Positive racial assumptions are often offensive because your attributing the positive quality not to the individual, but to the accident of their birth.
Also — do white people NOT like chicken and watermelon? Does anyone not like those foods?
And the stereotype comes from an assumption of poverty — they were both foods you could eat without owning silverware.
|
Even if it is offensive, people are allowed to get offended over anything they want all day long. What needs to stop is being told that if something offends you, it must be stopped or boycotted or the offender vilified. Some things offends some people, so what? People should just grow up and not be hyper sensitive. At least not about fried chicken it watermelon.
|
9fc1w4
|
CMV: It should not be considered offensive to associate black people with fried chicken or watermelon.
|
While fried chicken's history in the US has ties to slavery, it is in fact a very popular dish, enjoyed by people of every race and class, and no longer has the connotation of cheap, poor people food or food made from discarded scraps of meat if it ever was. It is a positive association then, if unhealthy, but so is eating tons of red meat and people often venerate steak eating as some kind of desirable tough male activity.
Watermelon is also very popular. In 2017, [it was the 6th most popular fruit](https://www.pma.com/content/articles/2017/05/top-20-fruits-and-vegetables-sold-in-the-us) by volume sold in the US. It doesn't have any negative connotations on its own that I've ever heard of, unlike some fruits with negative metaphors, euphemisms, or imagery (ie. banana/eggplants are sometimes used as a penis substitute, the word "lemon" can be used as a synonym for something disappointing, avocados sometimes seen dismissively as hippie food).
However, when you associate black people with eating fried chicken and watermelon, the automatic reaction is that its offensive. Invite a black person to a BBQ and tell him "we'll have fried chicken and watermelon!" and watch them get offended. If a corporation, unless its KFC or Popeye's, shows black people enthusiastically eating fried chicken, they would be excoriated.
My contention is that because the foods themselves are popular and tasty and universally loved, people should stop being offended by the association of a specific group of people to those foods. While it might be annoying if you're black and someone automatically assumes you like those foods, it should be an annoyance borne from repeated inaccuracy rather than assumed malice.
For example, if someone assumes I'm smart and I'm not, I'll be annoyed if I keep getting asked to solve math problems, but I'd be in the wrong if I get annoyed solely because people think I'm smart, I should feel at least flattered. A similar mistake would be the perception that black men have larger penises. Sure, it would suck if you're a black male with a short or average penis, that might cause some awkwardness when you are with a woman for the first time, but the association itself is positive even if a specific black man can't live up to it.
I'm also not saying this will work in all cases. There are absolutely negative associations society has on some groups and people should be taught not to make those because they actually harm people. Positive associations are helpful even if not every person in that group is accurately described by it. At worse, the association of black people with fried chicken and watermelon is neutral if you don't care for those foods, and should not be reacted to as racist.
| 1,536,788,698
|
TimeAll
|
e5vdaih
|
e5vd3md
| 5
| 1
|
CMV: Swearing in front of children should not be condoned, instead it should be used as a way to demonstrate a negative emotion (depending on context).
This has been on my mind from time to time. I normally don’t have spend much time around kids, so when I do I might say a few unkind words if it fits the conversation with friends/family. There are some individuals (a few of my friends) that outright say this is so wrong to so say in front of children. However the kids are eventually going to learn those words so I don’t see the issue in throwing them around now and then. I feel like it’s probably a good discussion to have if the child would say a swear word, that it should be used to convey a negative emotion.
|
To modify your view here:
>However the kids are eventually going to learn those words so I don’t see the issue in throwing them around now and then.
The challenge is, kids repeat a lot of what they hear in places like school and with their friends, where they can get in trouble for swearing.
If I may suggest upping your "swears" game to include neutral words when you are around kids, which you can express with the same emotional intensity (and use as an opportunity to discuss negative emotions if you like), and which kids can repeat without getting in trouble.
Here are 100 candidate faux "swear" words:
[https://wehavekids.com/parenting/101-Great-Cuss-Word-Alternatives](https://wehavekids.com/parenting/101-Great-Cuss-Word-Alternatives)
... but honestly, I'd just encourage you to get creative and make up your own, because when kids do copy your faux swears, it can be *highly* amusing.
I once saw a little kid who was red-faced with fury shouting "monkeys!!!" and 1) it was hilarious, and 2) he got to express his emotions while offending no one.
|
Lazy swearing shouldn’t be done around kids. Normalising violence (even spoken) shouldn’t be done around kids. Teaching them there’s a time and place for all ways of expressing yourself SHOULD be done around kids. If you want to model deadbeat disrespectful adult go hard, but I wouldn’t want to be that person in front of kids. There’s no need to add more disrespectful ignorant people in their life... like you said they will meet plenty of them anyway.
I have no problems with swearing I think it can be very effective in expressing emotion and adding creative flair to speech. But if someone says they don’t like it and if you don’t KNOW your audience I think it shows respect and thoughtfulness to restrain it.
|
mv9qez
|
CMV: Swearing in front of children should not be condoned, instead it should be used as a way to demonstrate a negative emotion (depending on context).
|
This has been on my mind from time to time. I normally don’t have spend much time around kids, so when I do I might say a few unkind words if it fits the conversation with friends/family. There are some individuals (a few of my friends) that outright say this is so wrong to so say in front of children. However the kids are eventually going to learn those words so I don’t see the issue in throwing them around now and then. I feel like it’s probably a good discussion to have if the child would say a swear word, that it should be used to convey a negative emotion.
| 1,618,986,317
|
GG90s
|
gvapmhp
|
gvapj14
| 3
| 2
|
CMV: Airplane seats on short flights should not be able to recline at all.
No one likes it when someone on your flight reclines Infront of you. It limits the already limited space for your legs and it's generally a pain in the ass. However on longer flights (>5 hr) I see how It might be nice to do it.
My problem is with people who recline on shorter flights and I bet that other people do too. There is no real need to recline on those shorter flights.
Companies usually have different planes for different types of routes, so they should lock the seats for the planes That do the shorter routes so no one can recline on them while leaving the other planes untouched.
|
Airlines exist that don't recline - they are discount ones. Most folks despise them.
Most people want a seat to recline. The second we take off that seat is going back, and I expect the person in front of me to do the same. It's not a "pain in the ass" by any means.
|
The retooling necessary would be very expensive. Instead the attendants can announce the policy of no reclining. The problem is that more people will be pissed off at the loss of a freedom than people will be happy with the extra legroom.
|
86z27p
|
CMV: Airplane seats on short flights should not be able to recline at all.
|
No one likes it when someone on your flight reclines Infront of you. It limits the already limited space for your legs and it's generally a pain in the ass. However on longer flights (>5 hr) I see how It might be nice to do it.
My problem is with people who recline on shorter flights and I bet that other people do too. There is no real need to recline on those shorter flights.
Companies usually have different planes for different types of routes, so they should lock the seats for the planes That do the shorter routes so no one can recline on them while leaving the other planes untouched.
| 1,521,958,541
|
tk2a
|
dw8y9bv
|
dw8y30m
| 4
| 3
|
CMV: China is #Winning
It appears as if China is outcompeting the United States.
China is sitting on reserves and reserves of American wealth and they have a positive trade deficit.
I really haven't heard a good refutation of how their system or scheme or strategy is faulty.
Only ad hominem attacks. "They kill girl babies" and "they repress journalism / free speech" Edited in: I added in this part about human rights abuses, so this thread would not go off topic. It's how conversations go irl, and I wanted to steer clear of it and focus on the economics of it. I don't condone it, and I heard that the policy was reversed.
Strategy is pretty simple:
1. Steal American innovations (take value from American freedoms)
2. Study Capitalistic ways in American universities
3. Do capitalism more efficiently w/ coordinated technocratic planning and labor
4. Sell that shit back to Westerners, at cheaper prices and quick obsolescence, so American wealth is redistributed (read: drained)
5. Turn around and invest that dough (like the Marshall plan) in other developing nations to become richer
Is this because of the agility and foresight of their economic system?
Am I missing something?
Please explain.
|
Neither were the Native Americans. that's why I said the logic was faulty. And the irl arguments were weak.
|
And you realize that there are several other countries we could buy them from. To name a few:
Vietnam
Taiwan
South Korea
Japan
India
|
86yhzl
|
CMV: China is #Winning
|
It appears as if China is outcompeting the United States.
China is sitting on reserves and reserves of American wealth and they have a positive trade deficit.
I really haven't heard a good refutation of how their system or scheme or strategy is faulty.
Only ad hominem attacks. "They kill girl babies" and "they repress journalism / free speech" Edited in: I added in this part about human rights abuses, so this thread would not go off topic. It's how conversations go irl, and I wanted to steer clear of it and focus on the economics of it. I don't condone it, and I heard that the policy was reversed.
Strategy is pretty simple:
1. Steal American innovations (take value from American freedoms)
2. Study Capitalistic ways in American universities
3. Do capitalism more efficiently w/ coordinated technocratic planning and labor
4. Sell that shit back to Westerners, at cheaper prices and quick obsolescence, so American wealth is redistributed (read: drained)
5. Turn around and invest that dough (like the Marshall plan) in other developing nations to become richer
Is this because of the agility and foresight of their economic system?
Am I missing something?
Please explain.
| 1,521,950,938
|
rowdyrider25
|
dw8ugb8
|
dw8uer8
| 3
| 2
|
CMV John Bolton is NOT a Patriot!
CMV: I believe that if John Bolton (and the others that have refused to appear) truly held the ideals of honesty and integrity and doing what is best for the country then they would appear and tell the truth to the Congressional committee.
A Patriot would put telling the truth for the best interest of the country above protecting the interest of an individual.
I was just reading an article about the expected court ruling on Monday whether Congress subpoenas have to be followed.
In this article it mentioned that John Bolton is watching this ruling to see if he should testify to Congress about what he knows.
It struck me that he is hiding behind the ruling of the judge. To me this is not the actions of a Patriot. A Patriot would speak out and let the chips fall where they may.
(Edit for spelling of chips :)
Update 11/25:
I was very close to being swayed by Abstractig_You with his presentation that Bolton's belief in that supporting/protecting Trump would be in the interest of the country would make his actions patriotic. Such as a loyal Russian's action would be patriotic to Russia.
However, several aspects kept my view interact, and have actually strengthened it.
What defines this country?
What is patriotism?
Are good intentions sufficient to be patriotic?
There are many ways to define the country. One aspect sticks out, especially for government officials, and that is upholding the Constitution and laws of the country.
Bolton described the Ukraine situation as a drug deal. This shows he saw illegal aspects to it.
Congress is an equal and separate branch of the government as said out in the Constitution. It is congresses duty and responsibility to investigate and determine if there was wrong doing.
By refusing to testify Bolton is undermining the duty of Congress by his belief he should protect Trump.
This is putting the interest of an individual about the interest of the Constitution.
Patriotism is putting the country above a party or an individual. Bolton is not doing this.
It does not matter if he feels his goals are ultimately in the interest of the country, he is not putting the country first.
It does not matter if he thinks that Biden did something wrong as the justification for Trump to do something wrong.
2 wrongs do not make it right.
Good intentions are not a justification to not put the country above a party or an individual.
So in the end I still hold the view that John Bolton is not a Patriot.
|
What is the definition of a ***patriot*** in your mind?
John Bolton and many of the people Trump has surrounded himself with are neorealists. To them, they *are* working towards the best interests of the nation. Trump getting into power has been the biggest boon for that camp since he is pretty much giving them carte blanche to implement realist policy on a national level, something Obama eschewed for most of his tenure.
If you are finally able to make the policy changes required to keep America safe and prosperous (their point of view, not mine), why would you flip on Trump and get him impeached? With Pence in office, it would not be as easy to get their policies approved.
|
What if you suspected the entire thing of being a political act and the "prosecution" of chomping at the bit to get material for an upcoming electoral campaign, and were trying to find out if talking to Congress right now would be damaging to a country in disunity, and would show fractures in the ranks of the leadership against a powerful foreign enemy by a top military official participating in a political game against the president, or if national security is threatened enough that this show of disunity in the face of a domestic threat is warranted?
|
e12hso
|
CMV John Bolton is NOT a Patriot!
|
CMV: I believe that if John Bolton (and the others that have refused to appear) truly held the ideals of honesty and integrity and doing what is best for the country then they would appear and tell the truth to the Congressional committee.
A Patriot would put telling the truth for the best interest of the country above protecting the interest of an individual.
I was just reading an article about the expected court ruling on Monday whether Congress subpoenas have to be followed.
In this article it mentioned that John Bolton is watching this ruling to see if he should testify to Congress about what he knows.
It struck me that he is hiding behind the ruling of the judge. To me this is not the actions of a Patriot. A Patriot would speak out and let the chips fall where they may.
(Edit for spelling of chips :)
Update 11/25:
I was very close to being swayed by Abstractig_You with his presentation that Bolton's belief in that supporting/protecting Trump would be in the interest of the country would make his actions patriotic. Such as a loyal Russian's action would be patriotic to Russia.
However, several aspects kept my view interact, and have actually strengthened it.
What defines this country?
What is patriotism?
Are good intentions sufficient to be patriotic?
There are many ways to define the country. One aspect sticks out, especially for government officials, and that is upholding the Constitution and laws of the country.
Bolton described the Ukraine situation as a drug deal. This shows he saw illegal aspects to it.
Congress is an equal and separate branch of the government as said out in the Constitution. It is congresses duty and responsibility to investigate and determine if there was wrong doing.
By refusing to testify Bolton is undermining the duty of Congress by his belief he should protect Trump.
This is putting the interest of an individual about the interest of the Constitution.
Patriotism is putting the country above a party or an individual. Bolton is not doing this.
It does not matter if he feels his goals are ultimately in the interest of the country, he is not putting the country first.
It does not matter if he thinks that Biden did something wrong as the justification for Trump to do something wrong.
2 wrongs do not make it right.
Good intentions are not a justification to not put the country above a party or an individual.
So in the end I still hold the view that John Bolton is not a Patriot.
| 1,574,620,787
|
estgad
|
f8lh2z3
|
f8lg7z4
| 10
| 4
|
CMV: Internet fact-checkers are bad for political discussion.
The main reason I dislike Politifact and other Internet “fact-checkers” is not because I disagree with their conclusions or think that they’re liberal (although their selection bias is obvious by now and they do take a number of quotes out of context). It’s because I think they’ve reframed politics into a matter of facts against lies and falsehoods instead of debates over differing world-views, philosophies, and ideologies. They completely remove the critical thinking aspect from political discussion and instead prioritize who has the more accurate data, who’s research is more up to date, whose web crawler gathers more information, etc. Not that these aren’t helpful in shaping policy, but it’s harmful to the idea of productive discourse if arguments based on ideology alone can be defeated simply by calling them “lies.”
Take Politifact’s 2010 “Lie of the Year” for example. It was that Obamacare is “a government takeover of healthcare.” The reasoning they used was that private insurance would still exist, and the new plan wouldn’t come close to mirroring the socialized systems in Europe. But what exactly constitutes a “government takeover” is subjective and depends on your ideology. If you lean conservative/libertarian and favor the free market, a system consisting of the individual mandate, several tax increases, and more government oversight of the healthcare system, Obamacare will definitely sound like a government takeover. If you lean liberal or progressive, that would not come close. It’s all relative and based on your own worldview and ideology, though Politifact framed the argument as one that can be factually disproven. There are many more similar examples.
Politics has never traditionally been a game of facts, as important as the facts are. And I think fact-checkers have reshaped politics away from how it has been traditionally: a field where people with different perspectives gather to discuss how leaders should govern and how a nation should function. Change my view.
|
First, the concept of fact checking:
I totally agree with you that larger world views and moral philosophy should be a part of political discussion. Fact checking can be handy when ensuring that these views are actually justified.
If I were to say “We should have an anti-immigration policy because immigrants are 10x more likely to commit violent crime than natural born citizens,” a fact checker would then step in to say “think what you will about this argument, but just know that the evidence he cited is inaccurate.” Whether or not you believe in my world view or policy decisions, voters and citizens in general should know when the evidence I use to support my claims is real or not. They can make their own conclusion from there.
As for certain liberal fact-checkers like politifact:
They’re generally accurate with their fact-checks in my experience. The example from 2010 that you used is not a good reflection on them, but I don’t think it’s representative of their general performance today.
If a fact checker is wrong, that’s obviously bad, but their presence is helpful to voters who don’t necessarily have the time to read all about these specific issues.
The alternative (no fact checking) is that candidates can really just say whatever they want, and people will have to go over the things they say and verify them bit-by-bit if they want to be sure they’re hearing a reasonable argument. This is a possible solution, but in the end it’s time consuming, and most people just wouldn’t do it.
|
Words only mean things if we understand what they mean. If you say somthing like "This is a government takeover of healthcare", you know darn well how people will interpret your words. So if you *also* know that that is not accurate, then you are lying.
The problem is that if you're lying--or exaggerating for effect--and it stands, then it can be taken as a true statement, even though it's false. Fact-checking serves to (try) to force people to engage *honestly* in the discussion. Opinions are not facts and cannot be factchecked, but inasmuch as they say something that is factual ("government takeover"), then either you're using those words in an extremely nonstandard way, or you're lying (or, more like, trying to exaggerate for effect).
As Danial Patrick Moynahan said "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts."
(Edited typo)
|
94o0cx
|
CMV: Internet fact-checkers are bad for political discussion.
|
The main reason I dislike Politifact and other Internet “fact-checkers” is not because I disagree with their conclusions or think that they’re liberal (although their selection bias is obvious by now and they do take a number of quotes out of context). It’s because I think they’ve reframed politics into a matter of facts against lies and falsehoods instead of debates over differing world-views, philosophies, and ideologies. They completely remove the critical thinking aspect from political discussion and instead prioritize who has the more accurate data, who’s research is more up to date, whose web crawler gathers more information, etc. Not that these aren’t helpful in shaping policy, but it’s harmful to the idea of productive discourse if arguments based on ideology alone can be defeated simply by calling them “lies.”
Take Politifact’s 2010 “Lie of the Year” for example. It was that Obamacare is “a government takeover of healthcare.” The reasoning they used was that private insurance would still exist, and the new plan wouldn’t come close to mirroring the socialized systems in Europe. But what exactly constitutes a “government takeover” is subjective and depends on your ideology. If you lean conservative/libertarian and favor the free market, a system consisting of the individual mandate, several tax increases, and more government oversight of the healthcare system, Obamacare will definitely sound like a government takeover. If you lean liberal or progressive, that would not come close. It’s all relative and based on your own worldview and ideology, though Politifact framed the argument as one that can be factually disproven. There are many more similar examples.
Politics has never traditionally been a game of facts, as important as the facts are. And I think fact-checkers have reshaped politics away from how it has been traditionally: a field where people with different perspectives gather to discuss how leaders should govern and how a nation should function. Change my view.
| 1,533,430,568
|
[deleted]
|
e3mg77f
|
e3mfp9k
| 9
| 2
|
CMV: An apprenticeship system is far superior to Colleges.
An apprenticeship system means starting at the bottom and working your way to the top using the skills you acquire along the way.
Example: To become a colo/rectal surgeon you would start a career path as a nursing assistant. After YOU feel you have learned what you need and have aquired the skills YOU feel you need to advance, you can take an aptitude test to become a nurse. As a nurse you would then do the same process to become a Nurse Practitioner, then a Doctor who assists on general surgery. Then they would apprentice under the specialty of colo/rectal surgeon and eventually get his License to be a full Colo/Rectal Surgeon in his own right.
I believe this for a multiple of reasons. First is because it would eliminate thousands of young people in debt for a vague chance at a job. Second, it would mean you learn practical skills on the job, not reading a book in the classroom. If you are like me, book learning is not the best way to learn. I have excelled at every job I have ever had because once I learn and am trained, I can grasp the concept easily. I know that a lot of jobs like a lawyer or doctor require book knowledge, but there is nothing saying you cannot learn those while also working in the field. Third, most of these jobs have an assistant with them most of the time as well. If you go to a learning E.R. they always have a student with them. Pharmacists have rotations they need in a pharmacy setting to graduate as well. I believe this is where most of the practical knowledge comes from anyway. Fourth, this would help supply and demand on labor. If the doctor field is becoming over saturated, people can still pass their doctors exam and either move to a new region, continue with thier current level of educational work, or if you feel the problem wont correct itself, start over. This is better than getting a Ph.D and finding out the field is over saturated and have to start with a job less than what you're trained for.
I think it's an overall better system than spending thousands upon thousands of dollars on vague chance that you may or may not get a job that you will be able to pay your debts. Not only that you can change at any time if you feel the current path isnt right for you.
|
Consider something like radio astronomy. Until you know Calculus, Linear algebra, Newtonian mechanics, relativity, quantum mechanics, and cosmology, as well as a bunch of computer science - you are basically worthless.
There is essentially a three year bridge of nothing but book learning, to transition you from noobie to radio astronomer.
Same for particle physicist, or chemical engineer, or micro-biologist.
Now, while all of these require 3 years of book learning, there is some overlap, such as Calculus and Newtonian mechanics. Wouldn't it be efficient if they all could learn, in the same place, at the same time, from the same teacher..... Oh wait, that's literally college.
If you aren't going heavy STEM, you have a point, but if you are doing engineering or chemistry or biology, a big part of those careers is literally, see these 20 books, know every single fact in all of them, and don't bother me until you've done that. College is really the only efficient way past that hurdle.
|
1. Being a nurse and a doctor are completely different skill sets. It’s an illogical progression.
2.However, since you used the doctor example, this is what they do. You start out of med school and become an intern, resident, senior resident, fellow, chief.
3. I can see this working for many things— and yes higher education is flawed— but as a Clinical Phycologist who went to 12 years total to learn.. it would take me 3x as long to acquire all this information in a work environment. Being a doctor, and working in a hospital in general is too fast paced and high stakes to be teaching the basics. Doctors do not have time to teach “wannabe doctors” these things. They already have to learn so much once out of new school, we wouldn’t have any doctors because of the time it would take.
4. You’re underestimating how much hands on work there is. For jobs that require an advanced degree there is a ton of research, and hands on work. I spent the last 4 years of my Ph.D in the lab, or in the field.
5. Education has value for its own sake, but this doesn’t mean it doesn’t need to be reformed.
6. If we get rid of the educational system who is researching and then teaching this new information?
|
b413e1
|
CMV: An apprenticeship system is far superior to Colleges.
|
An apprenticeship system means starting at the bottom and working your way to the top using the skills you acquire along the way.
Example: To become a colo/rectal surgeon you would start a career path as a nursing assistant. After YOU feel you have learned what you need and have aquired the skills YOU feel you need to advance, you can take an aptitude test to become a nurse. As a nurse you would then do the same process to become a Nurse Practitioner, then a Doctor who assists on general surgery. Then they would apprentice under the specialty of colo/rectal surgeon and eventually get his License to be a full Colo/Rectal Surgeon in his own right.
I believe this for a multiple of reasons. First is because it would eliminate thousands of young people in debt for a vague chance at a job. Second, it would mean you learn practical skills on the job, not reading a book in the classroom. If you are like me, book learning is not the best way to learn. I have excelled at every job I have ever had because once I learn and am trained, I can grasp the concept easily. I know that a lot of jobs like a lawyer or doctor require book knowledge, but there is nothing saying you cannot learn those while also working in the field. Third, most of these jobs have an assistant with them most of the time as well. If you go to a learning E.R. they always have a student with them. Pharmacists have rotations they need in a pharmacy setting to graduate as well. I believe this is where most of the practical knowledge comes from anyway. Fourth, this would help supply and demand on labor. If the doctor field is becoming over saturated, people can still pass their doctors exam and either move to a new region, continue with thier current level of educational work, or if you feel the problem wont correct itself, start over. This is better than getting a Ph.D and finding out the field is over saturated and have to start with a job less than what you're trained for.
I think it's an overall better system than spending thousands upon thousands of dollars on vague chance that you may or may not get a job that you will be able to pay your debts. Not only that you can change at any time if you feel the current path isnt right for you.
| 1,553,232,175
|
snopuppy
|
ej3leyq
|
ej3lccv
| 6
| 3
|
CMV: People shouldn't criticize YouTube for both implementing lots of ads and pushing YouTube Premium.
It's crazy to me that people get upset that YouTube's advertising structure has really ramped up lately, but then when YouTube offers a way to bypass all of it, people get upset. I could get beind upset at one or the other, but being upset at both the problem and solution seems dumb.
Additionally, from what I understand, content creators get paid more for YouTube Premium views than standard views. So, if you really want to support your favorite creators, YouTube Premium is a good way to do so - in addition to no ads.
I have YouTube Premium and I think it's a great deal because it also includes YouTube Music (formerly Google Play Music) which, in addition to being a good music streaming service, also allows you to lock your phone while using the YouTube app - effectively making every video/song on YouTube available to listen to.
​
EDIT: I'm adding this analogy because I like it. It's like someone in a restaurant complaining that their free sandwich is bland when they had the option to pay for a better-tasting sandwich.
|
Your premise is wrong. YouTube doesn’t decide how many ads will be on a video. Content creators choose if they want a video monetized or not and what type of ads to display: banner, unskippable video, skippable video. If the video is longer than ~10 minutes, YouTubers can then choose to place 2 or more ads on their video. A popular YouTuber, Shelby Church did a piece on this.
YouTube is just a broker, connecting people with ads to people who want to display them on their videos. YouTube doesn’t impose ads on creators. Any criticisms against the frequency of ads should not be targeted at YouTube.
My primary annoyance is that YouTubers are stretching their videos to the 10 minute mark, so they can double their ad revenue per video. I’ve seen videos that could’ve expressed their point in 2 minutes, stretch on for another 8 minutes with dull filler just to meet the 10 minute threshold
|
I agree in general, ads and Premium is what fundamentally supports the business and allows it to be free for anyone who wants to use it. If people don’t like it they don’t have to use it.
But at the same time, it’s valid for people to be annoyed by annoying ads. There’s a psychological aspect to it as well, similar to a toll road putting speed bumps on a non-toll road. YouTube is being pretty obnoxious with the quantity of ads and what not.
TL;DR everything is fair game, including complaining :)
|
mvilf4
|
CMV: People shouldn't criticize YouTube for both implementing lots of ads and pushing YouTube Premium.
|
It's crazy to me that people get upset that YouTube's advertising structure has really ramped up lately, but then when YouTube offers a way to bypass all of it, people get upset. I could get beind upset at one or the other, but being upset at both the problem and solution seems dumb.
Additionally, from what I understand, content creators get paid more for YouTube Premium views than standard views. So, if you really want to support your favorite creators, YouTube Premium is a good way to do so - in addition to no ads.
I have YouTube Premium and I think it's a great deal because it also includes YouTube Music (formerly Google Play Music) which, in addition to being a good music streaming service, also allows you to lock your phone while using the YouTube app - effectively making every video/song on YouTube available to listen to.
​
EDIT: I'm adding this analogy because I like it. It's like someone in a restaurant complaining that their free sandwich is bland when they had the option to pay for a better-tasting sandwich.
| 1,619,020,191
|
Red__Burrito
|
gvc5vtp
|
gvc5j1f
| 7
| 5
|
CMV: Insurance isn't worth it.
Ok so I don't really see the point in insurance. It seems a bit like a ripoff to me. Here's why:
**Insurance takes your money, which you may never get back**. So when you get insurance for something, you pay a company per month/year/whatever to "insure" something, which means that if there is a crisis or the insured object is damaged, they will pay for it to be fixed or replaced. This would be fine and dandy, but this doesn't happen a lot. I'd reckon that a lot of the time, these things don't happen. So you don't see a return on your investment.
Other times, when you do need payment, the insurance company decides whether it wants to pay out or not. For example, if I were to purchase insurance on my phone, and I dropped it in water, then depending on the terms of the insurance I might not see my investment returned in the form of a fixed or new phone.
Another reason why I believe that insurance isn't worth it is that **a savings account would do the same things, but better**. If you paid the money that would go into insurance into a savings account, you would be able to take that money out when you need it, on your own terms. That means that the problem of no return on the investment doesn't apply. In the case of you not having enough in your account, you could always take out a loan and pay it back with the money you would put into the account anyways. Also you would be able to get all the money back if you didn't require the savings any more. For example if I was putting money in an account for my pet but then my pet died, I would be able to use all that money for another purpose. Compare that to the case where I took out insurance, I would lose all the money.
I think I am missing something that is vital to why insurance works. Insurance is even required by law in some cases, like car insurance in the UK for example. CMV!
|
Insurance is useful when the potential damages go far beyond what you can afford to pay. For instance, my father had ample health insurance and was in a car accident in his 50s. He broke all of his ribs, punctured a lung, and sustained a brain injury. Hospital bills would have been in the millions had he not been insured. We would have had to make some very hard decisions (including taking him off life support in the first month) if we hadn't had insurance.
So to me, it's all about liquidity. If the potential costs of something are so high that I wouldn't be able to pay for it, then insurance is worth thinking about.
|
Insurance is here because a saving account may never get big enough. And making it legal is for your protection. Say you were to get hit and were hospitalized and needed a new car. Virtually no common person will have enough to pay for everything you need. This would leave you out of luck because you can’t get blood from a rock.
|
b45b0n
|
CMV: Insurance isn't worth it.
|
Ok so I don't really see the point in insurance. It seems a bit like a ripoff to me. Here's why:
**Insurance takes your money, which you may never get back**. So when you get insurance for something, you pay a company per month/year/whatever to "insure" something, which means that if there is a crisis or the insured object is damaged, they will pay for it to be fixed or replaced. This would be fine and dandy, but this doesn't happen a lot. I'd reckon that a lot of the time, these things don't happen. So you don't see a return on your investment.
Other times, when you do need payment, the insurance company decides whether it wants to pay out or not. For example, if I were to purchase insurance on my phone, and I dropped it in water, then depending on the terms of the insurance I might not see my investment returned in the form of a fixed or new phone.
Another reason why I believe that insurance isn't worth it is that **a savings account would do the same things, but better**. If you paid the money that would go into insurance into a savings account, you would be able to take that money out when you need it, on your own terms. That means that the problem of no return on the investment doesn't apply. In the case of you not having enough in your account, you could always take out a loan and pay it back with the money you would put into the account anyways. Also you would be able to get all the money back if you didn't require the savings any more. For example if I was putting money in an account for my pet but then my pet died, I would be able to use all that money for another purpose. Compare that to the case where I took out insurance, I would lose all the money.
I think I am missing something that is vital to why insurance works. Insurance is even required by law in some cases, like car insurance in the UK for example. CMV!
| 1,553,262,645
|
HanOnlyWan
|
ej490oq
|
ej48n0u
| 1,417
| 43
|
CMV: It is quite easy to work with people who are egoistic.
It is a general view that being egoistic is *bad*. Google defines ego as "a person's sense of self-esteem or self-importance." I personally believe that it is usually easier to work with people who have high levels of ego, as compared to people who aren't egoistic. Most people confuse superiority complex with egotism. People with superiority complex will try hard to make others believe that they are important. But Egoistic people, from that definition (and many other definitions I found online), must accept themselves as important people.
The original reason for adapting this view: I'm someone who likes helping others. Some of the people I have helped, keep coming back to me, even if they aren't truly in need of my help. They don't realize the amount of time I sacrifice in helping them. I'm able to handle that now, but an important lesson I learned (apart from the lesson: "avoid helping people who don't really need my help") was: **people with more ego, who feel they are worthy and important, usually try to solve all their problems themselves to declare their self-worth and are thus reliable in a team effort**. Thus, in a team, people who have heightened view of themselves, would like to **own** their work to declare their importance among other members in the group. It will also be possible to create a competitive environment to improve their productivity. Also, if an egoistic person is "lazy", and tries to avoid work, it would be more easier to remove him from the team than removing someone who is more friendly and has less ego, but isn't productive.
What do you think? Is Ego a good thing?
|
When you say people confuse superiority complex with egotism, I think you’re confusing egotism with egoism. Or maybe it’s just an autocorrect error or typo. But in any case, the people who argue with you are likely confusing egoism with egotism, not with a superiority complex. Egotism is always pejorative, whereas egoism is healthy (at least from a western perspective — Buddhists would disagree).
|
>people with more ego, who feel they are worthy and important, usually try to solve all their problems themselves to declare their self-worth and are thus reliable in a team effort
People with more ego tend to think they know more than they do. I've had egotistical coworkers who would assert things that were incorrect, say they didn't know why I couldn't understand, and walk away. I'd lose half a day chasing their false lead before finding the proof that they were wrong. They didn't help the team, they insulted them and wasted time. One of my former colleagues actually cited annoyance with that person as a primary reason for leaving. It's possible people who have earned their ego help teams, but people who think they're too good for questioning themselves and being questioned are usually harmful in my experience.
|
9fc5lc
|
CMV: It is quite easy to work with people who are egoistic.
|
It is a general view that being egoistic is *bad*. Google defines ego as "a person's sense of self-esteem or self-importance." I personally believe that it is usually easier to work with people who have high levels of ego, as compared to people who aren't egoistic. Most people confuse superiority complex with egotism. People with superiority complex will try hard to make others believe that they are important. But Egoistic people, from that definition (and many other definitions I found online), must accept themselves as important people.
The original reason for adapting this view: I'm someone who likes helping others. Some of the people I have helped, keep coming back to me, even if they aren't truly in need of my help. They don't realize the amount of time I sacrifice in helping them. I'm able to handle that now, but an important lesson I learned (apart from the lesson: "avoid helping people who don't really need my help") was: **people with more ego, who feel they are worthy and important, usually try to solve all their problems themselves to declare their self-worth and are thus reliable in a team effort**. Thus, in a team, people who have heightened view of themselves, would like to **own** their work to declare their importance among other members in the group. It will also be possible to create a competitive environment to improve their productivity. Also, if an egoistic person is "lazy", and tries to avoid work, it would be more easier to remove him from the team than removing someone who is more friendly and has less ego, but isn't productive.
What do you think? Is Ego a good thing?
| 1,536,789,432
|
deathconqueror
|
e5ve27y
|
e5vcspw
| 8
| 6
|
CMV: Asperger’s isn’t a thing
Please change my view. This argument is full of holes.
Here is my bad argument.
~~I don’t believe in Asperger’s. I know I’m setting myself up for downvotes or harassment, but in my opinion, people are just people. Others could have some of the same symptoms, but have a different label. Where does the “spectrum” end‽ Some people legitimately need help. A designation is needed so their condition isn’t ignored and they can get the help they need. **I am actually asking for help changing this point of view.**
Aggression can be normal because some people just get mad easily. That being said, it is still usually problematic. Compulsive behavior can be a symptom of many other conditions, which ties into autism being too arbitrary.~~
>Fidgeting
so what
>impulsivity
some people are just more impulsive. “Neurotypical” individuals can mentally become more impulsive by just choosing to ignore consequences and people who are can be taught to stop, so why the scarlet letter?
>repetitive movements
Humans make a lot of repetitive movements every day. Breathing, walking, typing Reddit comments, etc.
>social isolation
again, so what? they’re all just introverts, afraid, or people who need their alone time.
>persistent repetition of words or actions
see repetitive moments. Also, you can be repetitive and neurotypical, so...
>inability to combine muscle movements
combining *any* task can be hard.
>poor coordination
maybe they just have poor coordination, why is that an autistic trait?
>tic
I would point back to “repetitive actions”, but that would be “repetitive”.
>anger
>anxiety
>apprehension
there are normal reasons for all of these.
>depression
have you ever though that maybe it’s just... depression?
>intense interest in a limited number of things
Literally ***𝙀𝙑𝙀𝙍𝙔𝙊𝙉𝙀*** is guilty of this. [deep breath] Everyone is subscribed to different subreddits. Some of us like Facebook. Some like Instagram. Some like... Reddit. And everything is limited. Guess what, everyone has autistic traits. So why isn’t everyone autistic or some other “disorder”. Cue the “not a disorder, but different order” cliché here.
>learning disability
again, many reasons.
>nightmares
also too common to say for certain. Most of these are, but that one nightmare that you had back when you were 3 on top of whatever traits you have doesn’t magically push you over the line to Autismland.
>sensitivity to sound
misophonia? person from quiet place being bombarded with more noise than they’re used to? does the jet plane overhead make you an Aspie?
.~~
|
It's quite sad that some people see this as an attack on psychological academia. Or their oh-so-holy social justice psyches. IMO, it should be viewed as a prompt for meaningful conversation in the spirit of /r/changemyview. Here's my take (with a load of background info).
The American Psychology Association (APA) published the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Diagnosis of Disorders), and there are common elements to what makes/breaks a diagnosis (i.e what labels someone as afflicted vs someone who has a similar set of unrelated symptoms).
* Firstly, the symptoms generally must cause considerable distress and impairment of functioning. There is a difference in someone who has mild impulsiveness and one who cannot hold a job as a result of inability to focus and tendency act on slight urges.
* Secondly, you mention that the individual symptoms can all be explained in other ways. This is why to diagnose someone with an Autism Spectrum Disorder (Aspergers is no longer recognized as a Disorder)\*, many of the symptoms have clauses that say "\[social deficits \] not accounted for by general developmental delays, etc.". So social ineptitude does not count towards diagnosis if it is just a result of introversion.
* Thirdly, there is generally a time frame associated with these symptoms. A one-time nightmare or a desire to fidget in times of stress do not count, but a consistent, month-long series of nightmares qualifies as *one of many* contributing symptoms to a Diagnosis.
* Lastly, there is always a question of magnitude. Take schizophrenia for instance. Delusions are common. Me telling myself that I am intelligent in the face of performing poorly (intellectually or what have you) is a delusion. But it is quite a simple distortion of thought. A more troubling delusion that may be one of 3 things contributing to schizophrenia is thinking that I am immortal (and subsequently attempting to prove it through dangerous acts).
TL;DR:
1. Symptoms must cause a significant inability to function on an everyday level.
2. Psychologists agree with you on this front. If a symptom can be explained explicitly through other means, it may not count towards diagnosis (or be an indicator of another disorder).
3. Time frames and constancy are taken into account. One bad nightmare will not throw you into 'aspergersville' :P
4. Magnitude is considered as well.
A note about the removal of Asperger's in DSM-5:
While the argument can be made that this simple removal immediately invalidates any rebuttals against your point of view, the same arguments can be made against classifications on the 'low' end of the Autism Spectrum, or basically any other disorders.
​
Another note on the evolving nature of psychological diagnosis:
The post brings into light a rather important and pivotal question that psychological researchers have been addressing for many years. Preventing the wrongful diagnosis of a disorder due similar & unrelated symptoms has been a priority for years. The clinical practice of psychology becomes increasingly more intricate and public perceptions are always warped (with proponents of both views often misinformed).
​
I am aware that this answer contains elaborations/extensions of other answers, but hope that it provides some crucial background info!
|
When my son was diagnosed the specialist said that the one thing that made the difference was his IQ. At the age of 5 he had a 120 IQ. She said an IQ under 90 (if I am remembering correctly) would have put him in the category of high functioning Autism. Due to it being higher, he was diagnosed with Aspergers.
|
a8bobs
|
CMV: Asperger’s isn’t a thing
|
Please change my view. This argument is full of holes.
Here is my bad argument.
~~I don’t believe in Asperger’s. I know I’m setting myself up for downvotes or harassment, but in my opinion, people are just people. Others could have some of the same symptoms, but have a different label. Where does the “spectrum” end‽ Some people legitimately need help. A designation is needed so their condition isn’t ignored and they can get the help they need. **I am actually asking for help changing this point of view.**
Aggression can be normal because some people just get mad easily. That being said, it is still usually problematic. Compulsive behavior can be a symptom of many other conditions, which ties into autism being too arbitrary.~~
>Fidgeting
so what
>impulsivity
some people are just more impulsive. “Neurotypical” individuals can mentally become more impulsive by just choosing to ignore consequences and people who are can be taught to stop, so why the scarlet letter?
>repetitive movements
Humans make a lot of repetitive movements every day. Breathing, walking, typing Reddit comments, etc.
>social isolation
again, so what? they’re all just introverts, afraid, or people who need their alone time.
>persistent repetition of words or actions
see repetitive moments. Also, you can be repetitive and neurotypical, so...
>inability to combine muscle movements
combining *any* task can be hard.
>poor coordination
maybe they just have poor coordination, why is that an autistic trait?
>tic
I would point back to “repetitive actions”, but that would be “repetitive”.
>anger
>anxiety
>apprehension
there are normal reasons for all of these.
>depression
have you ever though that maybe it’s just... depression?
>intense interest in a limited number of things
Literally ***𝙀𝙑𝙀𝙍𝙔𝙊𝙉𝙀*** is guilty of this. [deep breath] Everyone is subscribed to different subreddits. Some of us like Facebook. Some like Instagram. Some like... Reddit. And everything is limited. Guess what, everyone has autistic traits. So why isn’t everyone autistic or some other “disorder”. Cue the “not a disorder, but different order” cliché here.
>learning disability
again, many reasons.
>nightmares
also too common to say for certain. Most of these are, but that one nightmare that you had back when you were 3 on top of whatever traits you have doesn’t magically push you over the line to Autismland.
>sensitivity to sound
misophonia? person from quiet place being bombarded with more noise than they’re used to? does the jet plane overhead make you an Aspie?
.~~
| 1,545,410,036
|
OkCustard
|
ecb4ujd
|
ec9rq22
| 1
| 0
|
CMV: the Dark Knight trilogy is much better than the marvel movies.
TDK trilogy was mind blowing. For starters, the cast is exceptional. Batman and all of the villains are portrayed as being more realistic, which makes it much more realistic in a thrilling/horror sense.
All marvel movies today feel like a cash generated flick. There’s not much depth, especially in the newer ones such as black panther, etc. I get that there’s 18 movies compared to 3, so there’s a lead up to a big movie (infinity war) but even then, the trilogy as a whole was much better than infinity war.
The obvious exceptional part of TDK cast was heath ledger. There’s just not ANY villains in ANY marvel movie that compare to him. Not even close. He played such a psychopath and his method acting and improvisation was the best I have ever seen in a movie. The make up was amazing as it wasn’t too comical. He PERFECTED the walk, laugh, mindset and everything the joker has to offer.
Tom Hardy was exceptional as Bane. Instead of being the veiny, lab rat that the comic books show, he’s portrayed as a beefy guy that can cause terror, which is realistic and makes it that much scarier. The destruction he caused was amazing. The mask was an awesome touch, although at times his voice was hard to understand the first time around.
Christian Bale was a good Batman. His voice in the first two movies were meh, but TDKR figured it out to be less raspy so that you could understand him. Overall, he played Bruce Wayne/Batman great and was memorable.
Don’t get me wrong, I like the marvel movies. Infinity war was a great movie. I love guardians. Maybe I’m inclined to the realism that TDK trilogy presents compared to the extra sci-fi found in the marcel movies, but overall I find the trilogy to have much better depth, acting, and plot.
|
The Dark Knight by itself? Couldn't agree more. The entire trilogy? Well, you might have issues with that view.
For full disclosure, here's how I rank the Dark Knight (DK) trilogy:
* Batman Begins - Great origin story, though kind of silly/muddled at times
* The Dark Knight - One of my all-time favorite movies, borderline superhero masterpiece
* The Dark Knight Rises - Potentially great movie filled with inconsistent plot development, wonky character development, and bizarre ending sequences
So again, for full disclosure, I saw The Dark Knight Rises once in the theaters and have no desire to ever see it again. In comparison, I've seen every Marvel movie a couple of times without any major qualms. I think the DK trilogy has some major flaws that could potentially change your view.
First, let's talk about the main plots of the DK Trilogy:
* Batman Begins - Bruce Wayne becomes Batman and eventually has to prevent Ras A Ghul from destroying Gotham
* The Dark Knight - The Joker becomes a dangerous presence to Batman and Gotham, sowing the seeds of chaos so that Gotham eventually destroys itself. Okay...
* The Dark Knight Trilogy - Bane comes back to avenge the death of Ras A Ghaul...oh, him again...he will also destroy Batman and finish the League of Shadows' plot to...destroy...Gotham....again.
I'm sensing a trend here. Not just destroying Batman, or maybe infiltrating the Government,or creating underground gang warfare, just "Destroy Gotham." Every time. That seems to be a bit played-out by the third movie. At least with Marvel, we have a WW2 heroic action movie, a super-genius battling with his past/internal demons to be better than his father, a God who is learning about Leadership while coming to terms with his brother's Shakespearean tragedy, etc. Marvel at LEAST tries to change the game up every movie. Hell, even Captain America's Trilogy does something different in its movies:
* Captain America - WW2 fight to defeat Nazi Hydra and win the war!
* Captain America: Winter Soldier - Cap battles with SHIELD to uncover the secret that HYDRA has been manipulating them the entire time. He also has to contend with a lost friend who will do anything to stop him
* Captain America: Civil War - Cap defies the Government to save a fallen friend at the detriment to his friends, creating rifts that may never be healed
There - one marvel movie trilogy that could at LEAST change the end-game from "Destroy \[insert city here\]." You'd think Christopher Nolan would've done SOMETHING a little different on that end.
Let's talk about the villains. Yes, Marvel has there fair share of generic villains. I would actually submit the idea that the DK trilogy has only one good villain - the Joker. That's it. Ras A Ghul was dead-set on destroying Gotham. Great. Only his plan was to use a vaporizing-water-device while having the Scarecrow and his men dump fear toxin into the water, etc. It was just so convoluted and unnecessary. Why not sow doubt in leadership by infiltrating Gotham's local officials? Why not destroy major structures? He went from "Careful planner of dissent" to "Evil madman destroys Gotham with fear-toxin-steam on a giant hover-train."
So let's also talk about Bane. Bane was an awesome concept of a character with one minor issue - he was completely unnecessary and his plan was beyond stupid. He came back to finish what Ras started - destroy Gotham. But why? In the beginning of The Dark Knight Rises, there's nothing but peace. Batman is gone because he's not needed. Things are seemingly under control. Gotham is in great shape. But Bane has to destroy it because...reasons? Let's also look at what he does:
* Creates a bizarre plane crash in order to cover-up stealing a nuclear scientist (for a future plan)
* Goes to Gotham and kind of hangs around in the sewers until Batman finds him and gets his ass kicked
* Bane decides to be a noble person and let all the criminals out because the Dent Act was based on a lie (since when did a man murdering tons of innocent random people throughout his build-up suddenly become all noble?)
* He then prevents people entering and exiting Gotham to create chaos and get revenge on the leaders of the city
* ...which doesn't matter because he eventually intends to just blowing up the city anyway
The best part? Bane's not the real villain! Surprise Talia A Ghul entrance! She was the REAL villain! For some reason! Oh, and eventually Batman fakes his own death-not-really-now-lives-in-France-like-no-one-would-recognize-Elon-Musk-in-the-middle-of-a-fucking-cafe-after-his-death-is-in-the-papers.
Wow that movie was so convoluted and a slog to get through. Marvel movies? At least they have the decency to zip along and not waste my time with over-complications that don't go anywhere or don't hold up after a tiny bit of scrutiny.
Ultimately, here's my opinion: The character/actors for the DK trilogy were phenomenal. Unfortunately, some of Christopher Nolan's (and his brother, a co-writer) ideas were not fully sussed out and the final product suffered. As individual movies? They work alright. As a trilogy that's supposed to have nuance and flow? Wow are they all over the place. It looks like Nolan had some grand ideas that would work individually but not as a series.
Where Marvel shines is that while their movies have through-lines in them, they make it a point to have each movie stand on it's own. Batman Begins can. The Dark Knight sort of can but falters a little bit. The Dark Knight Rises does NOT in any way stand up on it's own - it's a mess and tries to cling to The Dark Knight for consistency but goes out of the way to also disconnect itself at times too.
The DK trilogy had some amazing, show-stopping ELEMENTS that Marvel would not be able to do without them. As an entire trilogy, however, I think it just doesn't hold up due to the fact that Christopher Nolan did not have a concrete vision and faltered with the final movie. Marvel movies, love them or hate them, are consistent, stand up on their own, and work hard to make each movie within their own saga different enough to keep you interested in what they do next...and that's a sign of a good movie series. It doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be entertaining and different enough to keep you interested.
|
>All marvel movies today feel like a cash generated flick. There’s not much depth, especially in the newer ones such as black panther, etc.
I'm going to contest you on this point. *Black Panther* deals with a lot of themes, including African heritage in today's world, traditionalism, colonialism vs. isolationism, and revolution vs. incremental reform. [This video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjqOCOAGTHw) is 14 minutes long, but it dissects these themes in the film better than I could.
*Infinity War* could easily have been a giant punch-fest, and in many respects it was, but it actually has a bit more going on philosophically than at first meets the eye. Killing off half of the life in the universe wouldn't truly solve overpopulation, but let's just assume for a minute that it will. Broadly speaking, we've got Thanos representing pure utilitarianism and the Avengers representing deontology. Thanos is willing to do whatever it takes to benefit the most people, even if that means genocide. The Avengers generally abide by more Kantian categorical impreatives: sacrificing a life is wrong in and of itself, no matter the consequence (recall Captain America's line about trading lives). Even within the Avengers, we've got the split between romanticism (Captain America and Black Panther running into glorious battle with the forces of Thanos) and rationalism (Iron Man trying to out-strategize Thanos to prevent him from obtaining the Time Stone) as approaches to counter Thanos. By having Thanos win the film seems to suggest that both the passion of Rogers and T'Challa and the logical thinking of Stark are necessary to accomplish one's goals.
And I haven't even touched the theme of fatherhood in *Infinity War*; here's [another video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72QQsWm7yFk) addressing it.
|
94nue5
|
CMV: the Dark Knight trilogy is much better than the marvel movies.
|
TDK trilogy was mind blowing. For starters, the cast is exceptional. Batman and all of the villains are portrayed as being more realistic, which makes it much more realistic in a thrilling/horror sense.
All marvel movies today feel like a cash generated flick. There’s not much depth, especially in the newer ones such as black panther, etc. I get that there’s 18 movies compared to 3, so there’s a lead up to a big movie (infinity war) but even then, the trilogy as a whole was much better than infinity war.
The obvious exceptional part of TDK cast was heath ledger. There’s just not ANY villains in ANY marvel movie that compare to him. Not even close. He played such a psychopath and his method acting and improvisation was the best I have ever seen in a movie. The make up was amazing as it wasn’t too comical. He PERFECTED the walk, laugh, mindset and everything the joker has to offer.
Tom Hardy was exceptional as Bane. Instead of being the veiny, lab rat that the comic books show, he’s portrayed as a beefy guy that can cause terror, which is realistic and makes it that much scarier. The destruction he caused was amazing. The mask was an awesome touch, although at times his voice was hard to understand the first time around.
Christian Bale was a good Batman. His voice in the first two movies were meh, but TDKR figured it out to be less raspy so that you could understand him. Overall, he played Bruce Wayne/Batman great and was memorable.
Don’t get me wrong, I like the marvel movies. Infinity war was a great movie. I love guardians. Maybe I’m inclined to the realism that TDK trilogy presents compared to the extra sci-fi found in the marcel movies, but overall I find the trilogy to have much better depth, acting, and plot.
| 1,533,428,997
|
stabler22
|
e3mizfe
|
e3mfvz7
| 8
| 6
|
CMV: Terms such as "Homophobia" and "Transphobia" should be renamed or done away with.
The Latin root "phobia" refers to a fear or panic in response to stimuli. However, terms such as "Transphobia" are not used in context of people being genuinely afraid of transgenders, but rather used as an insult simply to call people who do not agree with the prospect of changing your gender. This post isn't about whether or not you can do so or whether or not homosexuality is okay, it is about the specific word usage of homophobia and transphobia.
Most people you will encounter and have discussions with are not afraid of transgenders or homosexuals. In fact, you would be hard pressed to find someone genuinely afraid of them. This is not to say that there are no people who may discriminate against those people, but that the number of people who genuinely fear transgenders and homosexuals is way too low, especially in proportion to everyone else, to justify the widespread usage of words like trans/homophobia.
|
> an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something
> an extreme or irrational fear or dislike of a specified thing or group
A phobia is an anxiety disorder or an extreme adversion to something. But the suffix can be used to describe different things. ln chemistry to describe chemical aversions (e.g. hydrophobic), in biology used to describe organisms that dislike certain conditions (e.g. acidophobia), and in medicine to describe hypersensitivity to a stimulus, usually sensory (e.g. photophobia). Should we replace "phobia" in all these words and re write text books as well just because there's a bit of confusion that it's associated with fear?
|
Do you also think that the word 'hydrophobia' should be changed?
|
94nwf4
|
CMV: Terms such as "Homophobia" and "Transphobia" should be renamed or done away with.
|
The Latin root "phobia" refers to a fear or panic in response to stimuli. However, terms such as "Transphobia" are not used in context of people being genuinely afraid of transgenders, but rather used as an insult simply to call people who do not agree with the prospect of changing your gender. This post isn't about whether or not you can do so or whether or not homosexuality is okay, it is about the specific word usage of homophobia and transphobia.
Most people you will encounter and have discussions with are not afraid of transgenders or homosexuals. In fact, you would be hard pressed to find someone genuinely afraid of them. This is not to say that there are no people who may discriminate against those people, but that the number of people who genuinely fear transgenders and homosexuals is way too low, especially in proportion to everyone else, to justify the widespread usage of words like trans/homophobia.
| 1,533,429,540
|
TheRougishSmithy
|
e3mf7ki
|
e3melev
| 14
| 6
|
CMV: Insurance isn't worth it.
Ok so I don't really see the point in insurance. It seems a bit like a ripoff to me. Here's why:
**Insurance takes your money, which you may never get back**. So when you get insurance for something, you pay a company per month/year/whatever to "insure" something, which means that if there is a crisis or the insured object is damaged, they will pay for it to be fixed or replaced. This would be fine and dandy, but this doesn't happen a lot. I'd reckon that a lot of the time, these things don't happen. So you don't see a return on your investment.
Other times, when you do need payment, the insurance company decides whether it wants to pay out or not. For example, if I were to purchase insurance on my phone, and I dropped it in water, then depending on the terms of the insurance I might not see my investment returned in the form of a fixed or new phone.
Another reason why I believe that insurance isn't worth it is that **a savings account would do the same things, but better**. If you paid the money that would go into insurance into a savings account, you would be able to take that money out when you need it, on your own terms. That means that the problem of no return on the investment doesn't apply. In the case of you not having enough in your account, you could always take out a loan and pay it back with the money you would put into the account anyways. Also you would be able to get all the money back if you didn't require the savings any more. For example if I was putting money in an account for my pet but then my pet died, I would be able to use all that money for another purpose. Compare that to the case where I took out insurance, I would lose all the money.
I think I am missing something that is vital to why insurance works. Insurance is even required by law in some cases, like car insurance in the UK for example. CMV!
|
Often insurance is required to protect others form your actions. This is both Car insurance and liability insurance companies are often required to carry. The primary purpose is so that when someone hits you or you plumber messes up and floods your house, there is someone who can afford to reimburse you. People have hit my car several times, luckily I have not been hurt and my car not totaled, but it could have easily lead to $50,000+ in damages if my car was nice enough or I was hurt enough. Few people have that just lying around. Without insurance I would be forced to sue this person in court which would take forever, then I would have to hope he actually has any money to take. Idk about England but in America a lot of people just stop having a bank account and only work for cash when they have such large debt. Or they declare bankruptcy and I would still not see a dime.
Other insurance is often helpful too. If I buy a home , I may owe the bank $300,000. Its worth it to me to pay a couple thousand a year to make sure that I don’t end up without a home while still opening the bank $300,000. And it is very worth it to the bank to ensure they have some way to get that $300,000 even if my house burns down.
|
>So you don't see a return on your investment.
Insurance isn't about ROI - it is about protecting yourself from an unlikely, but major, life event. The idea is that there is a low probability event (house burning down, major car accident, theft of an expensive item) that while unlikely, would be _devastating_ financially should it occur. You pay a small premium so that you can be assured that on the off-chance that event does occur, you won't suffer the major financial harm.
In finance terms, insurance is _transferring risk_. The insurance company takes over all the risk of financial loss and, in exchange, you pay them a small premium for doing so.
>For example, if I were to purchase insurance on my phone, and I dropped it in water, then depending on the terms of the insurance I might not see my investment returned in the form of a fixed or new phone.
If the terms of the policy don't cover the damage, then you should have either not gotten the policy or gotten one that covered the things you wanted it to cover.
If the terms of the policy do cover the damage and the company isn't paying, then they are a crappy company, but that doesn't negate the concept of insurance as a whole. A bad actor in an industry does not mean that entire industry is a bad idea.
>Another reason why I believe that insurance isn't worth it is that a savings account would do the same things, but better.
If you have the ability to save up for an unlikely event and pay out of pocket for the damage, you are right that you shouldn't get insurance. However, there are many situations were that is just not feasible. Homeowners insurance is a great example - it just isn't reasonable to expect people to keep an extra $500k lying around on the off chance that my home burns down. Insurance is meant for unlikely events that are financially devastating - not run of the mill things that you can absorb.
>In the case of you not having enough in your account, you could always take out a loan and pay it back with the money you would put into the account anyways.
_Highly_ you can do that for major financial events. If you have a mortgage on your house and the house burns down, the bank isn't going to lend you _more_ money to rebuild. You are going to be SoL, owing the bank for the original mortgage _and_ having no money to rebuild your house. Homeowners insurance is your protection from this.
In the case of things like medical insurance, _no way in hell_ the bank will lend a sick person money for medical treatment, particularly if there is almost no chance they will recoup that loan before the patient dies.
|
b45b0n
|
CMV: Insurance isn't worth it.
|
Ok so I don't really see the point in insurance. It seems a bit like a ripoff to me. Here's why:
**Insurance takes your money, which you may never get back**. So when you get insurance for something, you pay a company per month/year/whatever to "insure" something, which means that if there is a crisis or the insured object is damaged, they will pay for it to be fixed or replaced. This would be fine and dandy, but this doesn't happen a lot. I'd reckon that a lot of the time, these things don't happen. So you don't see a return on your investment.
Other times, when you do need payment, the insurance company decides whether it wants to pay out or not. For example, if I were to purchase insurance on my phone, and I dropped it in water, then depending on the terms of the insurance I might not see my investment returned in the form of a fixed or new phone.
Another reason why I believe that insurance isn't worth it is that **a savings account would do the same things, but better**. If you paid the money that would go into insurance into a savings account, you would be able to take that money out when you need it, on your own terms. That means that the problem of no return on the investment doesn't apply. In the case of you not having enough in your account, you could always take out a loan and pay it back with the money you would put into the account anyways. Also you would be able to get all the money back if you didn't require the savings any more. For example if I was putting money in an account for my pet but then my pet died, I would be able to use all that money for another purpose. Compare that to the case where I took out insurance, I would lose all the money.
I think I am missing something that is vital to why insurance works. Insurance is even required by law in some cases, like car insurance in the UK for example. CMV!
| 1,553,262,645
|
HanOnlyWan
|
ej499ey
|
ej493rh
| 55
| 38
|
CMV: Asperger’s isn’t a thing
Please change my view. This argument is full of holes.
Here is my bad argument.
~~I don’t believe in Asperger’s. I know I’m setting myself up for downvotes or harassment, but in my opinion, people are just people. Others could have some of the same symptoms, but have a different label. Where does the “spectrum” end‽ Some people legitimately need help. A designation is needed so their condition isn’t ignored and they can get the help they need. **I am actually asking for help changing this point of view.**
Aggression can be normal because some people just get mad easily. That being said, it is still usually problematic. Compulsive behavior can be a symptom of many other conditions, which ties into autism being too arbitrary.~~
>Fidgeting
so what
>impulsivity
some people are just more impulsive. “Neurotypical” individuals can mentally become more impulsive by just choosing to ignore consequences and people who are can be taught to stop, so why the scarlet letter?
>repetitive movements
Humans make a lot of repetitive movements every day. Breathing, walking, typing Reddit comments, etc.
>social isolation
again, so what? they’re all just introverts, afraid, or people who need their alone time.
>persistent repetition of words or actions
see repetitive moments. Also, you can be repetitive and neurotypical, so...
>inability to combine muscle movements
combining *any* task can be hard.
>poor coordination
maybe they just have poor coordination, why is that an autistic trait?
>tic
I would point back to “repetitive actions”, but that would be “repetitive”.
>anger
>anxiety
>apprehension
there are normal reasons for all of these.
>depression
have you ever though that maybe it’s just... depression?
>intense interest in a limited number of things
Literally ***𝙀𝙑𝙀𝙍𝙔𝙊𝙉𝙀*** is guilty of this. [deep breath] Everyone is subscribed to different subreddits. Some of us like Facebook. Some like Instagram. Some like... Reddit. And everything is limited. Guess what, everyone has autistic traits. So why isn’t everyone autistic or some other “disorder”. Cue the “not a disorder, but different order” cliché here.
>learning disability
again, many reasons.
>nightmares
also too common to say for certain. Most of these are, but that one nightmare that you had back when you were 3 on top of whatever traits you have doesn’t magically push you over the line to Autismland.
>sensitivity to sound
misophonia? person from quiet place being bombarded with more noise than they’re used to? does the jet plane overhead make you an Aspie?
.~~
|
Asperger's syndrome is a label that exists because the symptoms affect people to the extent that it negatively impacts their life.
I have Asperger's and so I will demonstrate (hopefully) the impact it has had in my life.
Isolation is something that goes beyond introversion, I would (and still do) spend all of my free time at home in a dark room until I had to leave it, such as for eating or going to school. Furthermore, I have never made a friend in my life, bar acquaintances (if they constitute friends).
Extreme interest goes beyond what is normal for most people. It (my interest at the time) became my existence and my sole purpose for living. My interests are like water, and losing them (which has happened multiple times) triggers a sense of grief. Without my interest, life becomes meaningless and a hellish torture.
Repetetive actions provide a sense of comfort to me - they are a constant in a chaotic world that comfort me and allow me to function more effectively, and without them, unpredictability becomes unbearable.
For depression, I have suffered with suicidal ideation since I was four years old, I am now fifteen but have lived constantly with a desire to die.
Ultimately, my point is that these things affect people with Asperger's far more than normal people. Moreover they do so to an extent that, without the proper support, makes their lives impossible to live.
|
The DSM-V does not include Asperger's syndrome as a possible diagnosis. People who would previously have been considered to have Asperger's syndrome are now diagnosed on the Autism Spectrum with Autism Spectrum Disorder. The Psychiatric and Psychological communities actually don't use the term "Asperger's" officially anymore in the US (it's still part of the ICD 10 classification system, which is international, though it's expected to be changed), though it is still sometimes used to refer to high-functioning autistic individuals.
|
a8bobs
|
CMV: Asperger’s isn’t a thing
|
Please change my view. This argument is full of holes.
Here is my bad argument.
~~I don’t believe in Asperger’s. I know I’m setting myself up for downvotes or harassment, but in my opinion, people are just people. Others could have some of the same symptoms, but have a different label. Where does the “spectrum” end‽ Some people legitimately need help. A designation is needed so their condition isn’t ignored and they can get the help they need. **I am actually asking for help changing this point of view.**
Aggression can be normal because some people just get mad easily. That being said, it is still usually problematic. Compulsive behavior can be a symptom of many other conditions, which ties into autism being too arbitrary.~~
>Fidgeting
so what
>impulsivity
some people are just more impulsive. “Neurotypical” individuals can mentally become more impulsive by just choosing to ignore consequences and people who are can be taught to stop, so why the scarlet letter?
>repetitive movements
Humans make a lot of repetitive movements every day. Breathing, walking, typing Reddit comments, etc.
>social isolation
again, so what? they’re all just introverts, afraid, or people who need their alone time.
>persistent repetition of words or actions
see repetitive moments. Also, you can be repetitive and neurotypical, so...
>inability to combine muscle movements
combining *any* task can be hard.
>poor coordination
maybe they just have poor coordination, why is that an autistic trait?
>tic
I would point back to “repetitive actions”, but that would be “repetitive”.
>anger
>anxiety
>apprehension
there are normal reasons for all of these.
>depression
have you ever though that maybe it’s just... depression?
>intense interest in a limited number of things
Literally ***𝙀𝙑𝙀𝙍𝙔𝙊𝙉𝙀*** is guilty of this. [deep breath] Everyone is subscribed to different subreddits. Some of us like Facebook. Some like Instagram. Some like... Reddit. And everything is limited. Guess what, everyone has autistic traits. So why isn’t everyone autistic or some other “disorder”. Cue the “not a disorder, but different order” cliché here.
>learning disability
again, many reasons.
>nightmares
also too common to say for certain. Most of these are, but that one nightmare that you had back when you were 3 on top of whatever traits you have doesn’t magically push you over the line to Autismland.
>sensitivity to sound
misophonia? person from quiet place being bombarded with more noise than they’re used to? does the jet plane overhead make you an Aspie?
.~~
| 1,545,410,036
|
OkCustard
|
ec9lz6u
|
ec9l8v9
| 16
| 8
|
CMV: Between a Melee class and a Ranged class, the Mage is realistically the best class.
Good day! I hope to stir up some good discussion with this view of mine. My view is this:
**Of the three main types of RPG classes: (Ranged, Melee, and Mage), Mage is realistically the best and most over-powered class.**
I have been playing RPGs for as long as I can remember, and I've DM'ed a few DnD campaigns in the past, and whenever I put these three *main* classes (I say main because, to me, all sub-classes are derived from them) in a realistic context, the mage always comes out to me as the most viable. If it helps, my image of mages has been mostly influenced by my experience with TES.
To start my explanation, I will first begin in explaining the negatives of being a mage, and then move on to the positives:
**Negatives**
*Magic and the intelligence to use it is what makes the mage strong*, not his strength nor agility which are (typically) reserved for the other two classes. Because of this, without magic, mana, or spells, the mage is just an intelligent dude with a stick and marginal martial skill. Useful for solving puzzles but not as much for surviving battles. If, in any way, a mage's magic is silenced or stripped away from him, he easily becomes the least useful class compared to the other two.
Furthermore, mages have a lot of reliance to objects, trinkets and enchantments, and this makes their power even more difficult to maximize. Great magic powers are hidden in artifacts or godly objects like in tomes or jewelry, and unlike the warrior and the ranger who can train their skills to perfection and be strong by virtue of their natural skill, the capacity of a mage is heavily limited to what he has material access to. Since the power of the mage is mostly external and not as accessible compared to warriors and rangers, he needs to search for his sources of power, be it in study or in relics, to achieve his greatest potential.
Also, training as a mage is a lot more complicated compared to the other classes. There are way too many schools/areas of magic to master and a mage would usually devote his life to just one. It takes a lot of time to master just one school or area, compared to the other classes, which are more narrow yet more compact in the mastery of their skills. Perhaps this is why the most powerful mages are the oldest and most ancient ones, while the most powerful rangers and warriors are usually depicted as being in their "prime".
You might say that mages are usually anti-social and comprise a great deal of villainous powers. For the former, I say that a class does not automatically determine the personality of a character. There are anti-social rangers and warriors just as there mages. For the latter, that is merely testament to the kind of power a mage has. The fact that mages are go-to antagonists means that they have the influence and power to twist macro-elements of a world, like politics, course of nature, and balance of order and chaos in order to cause conflict. Why? Because magic.
**Positives**
That said, now for the main supporting arguments to my view:
*The primary power of the mage is his ability to bend natural laws through magic.*
The other classes are focused on mastering them, like in the fast reloading of a bow or the strong cleave of an axe. Those follow natural laws, only that these classes can do them more efficiently and to a greater effect. Mages, however, *bend them to their will* using magic. Because of this, mages can easily compensate for most of their flaws. Their dependency to magic isn't a problem if they somehow magic an unlimited source of mana or an ultra mana-regenerative enchantment. Their weakness to silence is negligible if they have enchantments that protect them from it. Mages have the potential to be extremely adaptive by right of their magic.
You might say: "Well, that's a cop-out since you're basically arguing that mages are the most powerful class since they can have unlimited source of power and can prevent nullifying forces from taking this power away from them. That's obvious." To counter this, I argue that mages can make more of their unlimited source of power compared to if rangers and warriors had access to a similar source of power with respect to their class:
Mages can master all sorts of powers, like the elements, conjuration, necromancy, and divine influence. Mages are closer to primordial gods than rangers and warriors are solely because of how godly their powers could be. They can raise the dead, conjure objects from nothing, spark fire from their fingertips, throw a gust of wind, contain huge objects in tiny spaces, and many more. While rangers and warriors can cut, pierce, and test the elements, mages can do so much more with *just* the elements (earth, wind, fire, water). They can teleport, turn invisible, transmute materials, charm, enchant objects, enhance their own physical abilities through magic, and understand a great deal of worldly and arcane things through their study.
Moreover, a large fraction of the power of warriors and rangers rely on enchantments which *come from mages*. A warrior would take a flaming sword enchanted by a mage over a normal one. A ranger would take a hood that improves his/her accuracy woven by a mage over an ordinary hood. Even these two classes need magic to gain a higher level of power, and mages are masters of magic.
Also, mages are the most survivable class. Mages can conjure food, water, and shelter. They don't need to construct bridges over rivers simply because they can make bridges out of thin air. They can also heal others and themselves. Mages bring a lot of utility and thus why a lot of sub-types of support classes are more related to mage-types.
I am therefore thoroughly convinced that the strongest mage is more powerful than the strongest warrior or ranger simply because the strongest mages are literally gods. Their power is meant to be *over-powered*. They bend the rules. They have better chances of changing the world physically and politically through their magical power, and thus, the mage is the most powerful class.
This is not to say that the other classes are useless. In fact, all classes complement each other. My argument is that, in the bigger picture, the mage has the most power and I am sure that this view of mine is open to change. I have presented much of the arguments given to me in the past that oppose my view, but my view still stands because of how *easily the mage can compensate for them*. To change it, arguments to the contrary would be appreciated.
Thank you.
|
Your question requires some clarification. it sounds like you are assuming a few things:
First, you appear to be looking past the pure mechanical abilities built into RPGs and instead focusing on your (subjective) interpretation as to what the world would realistically be. This is a hard point to argue, as we cannot refute something that is not based on fact.
For example, let's look at your "negatives". You assume magic is based on intelligence, when we know from DnD that magic can be based on intelligence, wisdom, or charisma. Next you say that magic relies on objects. We also know this to be false in the realm of DnD, where many abilities require no magical focus or material components. Next, you state that training is more complex for a magic wielder. Once again, this is not necessarily true. It's certainly not built into DnD, and we know that the EXP progression for all classes is the same.
And now the "positives". others have already noted that mages DON'T have an unlimited source of power. In DnD, they have spell slots that are used up every long rest. "Survivable" is also subjective. DnD monks eventually don't need to eat or drink. And not all mages can conjure water, food, shelter, etc. They have utility, yes, but that doesn;t necessarily mean they are more "survivable".
You may notice that I'm circling around a common theme: not all RPG universes are created equal. The answer to any of the above may very well be different depending on the RPG you choose. I used DnD as an example above, where I personally agree that magic wielders have an immense amount of power over the laws of nature and can be basically gods. I could choose dozens of other RPGs where magic wielders CAN'T manipulate weather, time, gravity, etc. It makes your point once again hard to argue, because either side can cherry-pick an example that supports their view.
At the end of the day, I don't necessarily disagree with your statement, because it is too ambiguous to properly argue against. I would suggest you narrow down your argument to a single RPG, and even then, narrow down your scope to the established lore of that universe rather than the "realistic context" you may be able to imagine.
|
I'd say mages would usually win. Not because of their powers, but because they scale with int/wisdom. That is something we can not replicate in-game because the player doesn't become smarter or dumber accordingly to his stats.
If a mage were truly 5 times smarter than anyone else, they could prepare for literally everything. Prediction and countering any attack will always lead to the mage winning. Not because they are a mage, but because they are smarter and better prepared.
Realistically, a smart mage would simply avoid running into traps and dangerous situations, because they understand very clearly what could be dangerous for them. It's the same way speed counters strenght. If you can't hit it, you can't kill it. Being smart counters both, because even if you could hit it, it will plan the encounter in a way that you simply won't.
Being smart makes even mediocre powers much, much more efficient. Having roughly the same power-level with int/wisdom smartness will essentially always lead to the mage dominating the others. Especially when the gap becomes larger and larger due to level ups.
Since we are talking about games this is obviously unrealistic because super-OP. Yet, if you were some dude with an IQ of 250 compared to that 65 IQ Orc Warrior....I mean that orc will be strong and resilient as fuck. Yet, even a normal person would be smart enough to out-smart that Orc heavily. That 250 IQ mage would use tactics so complex, even a smart human being would not be able to comprehend what is going on at all. There is no way that mage would lose, ever.
|
870i2j
|
CMV: Between a Melee class and a Ranged class, the Mage is realistically the best class.
|
Good day! I hope to stir up some good discussion with this view of mine. My view is this:
**Of the three main types of RPG classes: (Ranged, Melee, and Mage), Mage is realistically the best and most over-powered class.**
I have been playing RPGs for as long as I can remember, and I've DM'ed a few DnD campaigns in the past, and whenever I put these three *main* classes (I say main because, to me, all sub-classes are derived from them) in a realistic context, the mage always comes out to me as the most viable. If it helps, my image of mages has been mostly influenced by my experience with TES.
To start my explanation, I will first begin in explaining the negatives of being a mage, and then move on to the positives:
**Negatives**
*Magic and the intelligence to use it is what makes the mage strong*, not his strength nor agility which are (typically) reserved for the other two classes. Because of this, without magic, mana, or spells, the mage is just an intelligent dude with a stick and marginal martial skill. Useful for solving puzzles but not as much for surviving battles. If, in any way, a mage's magic is silenced or stripped away from him, he easily becomes the least useful class compared to the other two.
Furthermore, mages have a lot of reliance to objects, trinkets and enchantments, and this makes their power even more difficult to maximize. Great magic powers are hidden in artifacts or godly objects like in tomes or jewelry, and unlike the warrior and the ranger who can train their skills to perfection and be strong by virtue of their natural skill, the capacity of a mage is heavily limited to what he has material access to. Since the power of the mage is mostly external and not as accessible compared to warriors and rangers, he needs to search for his sources of power, be it in study or in relics, to achieve his greatest potential.
Also, training as a mage is a lot more complicated compared to the other classes. There are way too many schools/areas of magic to master and a mage would usually devote his life to just one. It takes a lot of time to master just one school or area, compared to the other classes, which are more narrow yet more compact in the mastery of their skills. Perhaps this is why the most powerful mages are the oldest and most ancient ones, while the most powerful rangers and warriors are usually depicted as being in their "prime".
You might say that mages are usually anti-social and comprise a great deal of villainous powers. For the former, I say that a class does not automatically determine the personality of a character. There are anti-social rangers and warriors just as there mages. For the latter, that is merely testament to the kind of power a mage has. The fact that mages are go-to antagonists means that they have the influence and power to twist macro-elements of a world, like politics, course of nature, and balance of order and chaos in order to cause conflict. Why? Because magic.
**Positives**
That said, now for the main supporting arguments to my view:
*The primary power of the mage is his ability to bend natural laws through magic.*
The other classes are focused on mastering them, like in the fast reloading of a bow or the strong cleave of an axe. Those follow natural laws, only that these classes can do them more efficiently and to a greater effect. Mages, however, *bend them to their will* using magic. Because of this, mages can easily compensate for most of their flaws. Their dependency to magic isn't a problem if they somehow magic an unlimited source of mana or an ultra mana-regenerative enchantment. Their weakness to silence is negligible if they have enchantments that protect them from it. Mages have the potential to be extremely adaptive by right of their magic.
You might say: "Well, that's a cop-out since you're basically arguing that mages are the most powerful class since they can have unlimited source of power and can prevent nullifying forces from taking this power away from them. That's obvious." To counter this, I argue that mages can make more of their unlimited source of power compared to if rangers and warriors had access to a similar source of power with respect to their class:
Mages can master all sorts of powers, like the elements, conjuration, necromancy, and divine influence. Mages are closer to primordial gods than rangers and warriors are solely because of how godly their powers could be. They can raise the dead, conjure objects from nothing, spark fire from their fingertips, throw a gust of wind, contain huge objects in tiny spaces, and many more. While rangers and warriors can cut, pierce, and test the elements, mages can do so much more with *just* the elements (earth, wind, fire, water). They can teleport, turn invisible, transmute materials, charm, enchant objects, enhance their own physical abilities through magic, and understand a great deal of worldly and arcane things through their study.
Moreover, a large fraction of the power of warriors and rangers rely on enchantments which *come from mages*. A warrior would take a flaming sword enchanted by a mage over a normal one. A ranger would take a hood that improves his/her accuracy woven by a mage over an ordinary hood. Even these two classes need magic to gain a higher level of power, and mages are masters of magic.
Also, mages are the most survivable class. Mages can conjure food, water, and shelter. They don't need to construct bridges over rivers simply because they can make bridges out of thin air. They can also heal others and themselves. Mages bring a lot of utility and thus why a lot of sub-types of support classes are more related to mage-types.
I am therefore thoroughly convinced that the strongest mage is more powerful than the strongest warrior or ranger simply because the strongest mages are literally gods. Their power is meant to be *over-powered*. They bend the rules. They have better chances of changing the world physically and politically through their magical power, and thus, the mage is the most powerful class.
This is not to say that the other classes are useless. In fact, all classes complement each other. My argument is that, in the bigger picture, the mage has the most power and I am sure that this view of mine is open to change. I have presented much of the arguments given to me in the past that oppose my view, but my view still stands because of how *easily the mage can compensate for them*. To change it, arguments to the contrary would be appreciated.
Thank you.
| 1,521,982,479
|
onesix16
|
dw9hsnl
|
dw9dowr
| 4
| 3
|
CMV: Between a Melee class and a Ranged class, the Mage is realistically the best class.
Good day! I hope to stir up some good discussion with this view of mine. My view is this:
**Of the three main types of RPG classes: (Ranged, Melee, and Mage), Mage is realistically the best and most over-powered class.**
I have been playing RPGs for as long as I can remember, and I've DM'ed a few DnD campaigns in the past, and whenever I put these three *main* classes (I say main because, to me, all sub-classes are derived from them) in a realistic context, the mage always comes out to me as the most viable. If it helps, my image of mages has been mostly influenced by my experience with TES.
To start my explanation, I will first begin in explaining the negatives of being a mage, and then move on to the positives:
**Negatives**
*Magic and the intelligence to use it is what makes the mage strong*, not his strength nor agility which are (typically) reserved for the other two classes. Because of this, without magic, mana, or spells, the mage is just an intelligent dude with a stick and marginal martial skill. Useful for solving puzzles but not as much for surviving battles. If, in any way, a mage's magic is silenced or stripped away from him, he easily becomes the least useful class compared to the other two.
Furthermore, mages have a lot of reliance to objects, trinkets and enchantments, and this makes their power even more difficult to maximize. Great magic powers are hidden in artifacts or godly objects like in tomes or jewelry, and unlike the warrior and the ranger who can train their skills to perfection and be strong by virtue of their natural skill, the capacity of a mage is heavily limited to what he has material access to. Since the power of the mage is mostly external and not as accessible compared to warriors and rangers, he needs to search for his sources of power, be it in study or in relics, to achieve his greatest potential.
Also, training as a mage is a lot more complicated compared to the other classes. There are way too many schools/areas of magic to master and a mage would usually devote his life to just one. It takes a lot of time to master just one school or area, compared to the other classes, which are more narrow yet more compact in the mastery of their skills. Perhaps this is why the most powerful mages are the oldest and most ancient ones, while the most powerful rangers and warriors are usually depicted as being in their "prime".
You might say that mages are usually anti-social and comprise a great deal of villainous powers. For the former, I say that a class does not automatically determine the personality of a character. There are anti-social rangers and warriors just as there mages. For the latter, that is merely testament to the kind of power a mage has. The fact that mages are go-to antagonists means that they have the influence and power to twist macro-elements of a world, like politics, course of nature, and balance of order and chaos in order to cause conflict. Why? Because magic.
**Positives**
That said, now for the main supporting arguments to my view:
*The primary power of the mage is his ability to bend natural laws through magic.*
The other classes are focused on mastering them, like in the fast reloading of a bow or the strong cleave of an axe. Those follow natural laws, only that these classes can do them more efficiently and to a greater effect. Mages, however, *bend them to their will* using magic. Because of this, mages can easily compensate for most of their flaws. Their dependency to magic isn't a problem if they somehow magic an unlimited source of mana or an ultra mana-regenerative enchantment. Their weakness to silence is negligible if they have enchantments that protect them from it. Mages have the potential to be extremely adaptive by right of their magic.
You might say: "Well, that's a cop-out since you're basically arguing that mages are the most powerful class since they can have unlimited source of power and can prevent nullifying forces from taking this power away from them. That's obvious." To counter this, I argue that mages can make more of their unlimited source of power compared to if rangers and warriors had access to a similar source of power with respect to their class:
Mages can master all sorts of powers, like the elements, conjuration, necromancy, and divine influence. Mages are closer to primordial gods than rangers and warriors are solely because of how godly their powers could be. They can raise the dead, conjure objects from nothing, spark fire from their fingertips, throw a gust of wind, contain huge objects in tiny spaces, and many more. While rangers and warriors can cut, pierce, and test the elements, mages can do so much more with *just* the elements (earth, wind, fire, water). They can teleport, turn invisible, transmute materials, charm, enchant objects, enhance their own physical abilities through magic, and understand a great deal of worldly and arcane things through their study.
Moreover, a large fraction of the power of warriors and rangers rely on enchantments which *come from mages*. A warrior would take a flaming sword enchanted by a mage over a normal one. A ranger would take a hood that improves his/her accuracy woven by a mage over an ordinary hood. Even these two classes need magic to gain a higher level of power, and mages are masters of magic.
Also, mages are the most survivable class. Mages can conjure food, water, and shelter. They don't need to construct bridges over rivers simply because they can make bridges out of thin air. They can also heal others and themselves. Mages bring a lot of utility and thus why a lot of sub-types of support classes are more related to mage-types.
I am therefore thoroughly convinced that the strongest mage is more powerful than the strongest warrior or ranger simply because the strongest mages are literally gods. Their power is meant to be *over-powered*. They bend the rules. They have better chances of changing the world physically and politically through their magical power, and thus, the mage is the most powerful class.
This is not to say that the other classes are useless. In fact, all classes complement each other. My argument is that, in the bigger picture, the mage has the most power and I am sure that this view of mine is open to change. I have presented much of the arguments given to me in the past that oppose my view, but my view still stands because of how *easily the mage can compensate for them*. To change it, arguments to the contrary would be appreciated.
Thank you.
|
so your argument is essentially that magic is better than not having any magic. Do you consider a rogue that mainly focuses on archery with a little bit of teleportation magic to be a "mage?" Do you consider a warrior with a little bit of healing magic to be a mage?
Do you ever find Silencing to be a thing in your DnD campaigns? Or enemies that are resistant to the element that the given mage specializes in?
One thing mages are known for in class based games is having high AOE damage. Against single targets and bosses they're generally not as good because they run out of MP resources before the enemy dies. Making them more of a stick-wielder with no armor. Being resource-independent makes the other classes better for longer, attritional campaigns and fights.
Also, in the rock-paper-scissors of rogue > mage > warrior > rogue. The mage usually loses to the rogue because stringing and loosing an arrow takes less time than casting a spell. Depending on the game, being damaged can interrupt casting. And rogues being quicker and able to close on a mage makes them less able to cast their big AOE spells without catching themselves in the blast.
Some universes balance magic out with non-magic by giving it downsides. For example in FF tactics having high faith used for casting magic also makes you vulnerable to it. In Divinity, using Source Magic attracts the Voidwoken monsters or makes you more vulnerable to being possessed. Magic is oftentimes less predictable than the other skills and specialties. Status effects might not take hold, a freak rainstorm could cause your fire spells to fizzle, using magic might take a toll on a player's health and/or sanity. In a fictional universe where none of these downsides apply then of course magic would be stronger.
|
In what context are you framing this argument? Because it sounds like you're pulling from a bunch of different kinds of games and fantasy universes, and many of these points are very context specific. "Ranged, Melee, and mage" are not really universal 3 character archetypes across all games/fantasy worlds.
If you're talking about a video game, any game where a specific class is overpowered compared to the others is not a well designed game. You say that mages can do all of these kinds of things that other kinds of classes can't, which implies that not only are they as useful in combat, but they're more versatile, but video games don't work that way. You've got a set amount of points to spend on skills/attributes/abilities/whatever. If your character is putting points into making powerful fireballs, they shouldn't also have enough points to cast invisibility, magic barriers, mind control, and all of the other kinds of crazy types of magic.
There have been games where magic classes were objectively overpowered (D&D version 3.5 being a notable example), for most of the reasons that you've stated, but most people agree that setting things up that way is a mistake, not proof that it's the "natural" state of classes.
|
870i2j
|
CMV: Between a Melee class and a Ranged class, the Mage is realistically the best class.
|
Good day! I hope to stir up some good discussion with this view of mine. My view is this:
**Of the three main types of RPG classes: (Ranged, Melee, and Mage), Mage is realistically the best and most over-powered class.**
I have been playing RPGs for as long as I can remember, and I've DM'ed a few DnD campaigns in the past, and whenever I put these three *main* classes (I say main because, to me, all sub-classes are derived from them) in a realistic context, the mage always comes out to me as the most viable. If it helps, my image of mages has been mostly influenced by my experience with TES.
To start my explanation, I will first begin in explaining the negatives of being a mage, and then move on to the positives:
**Negatives**
*Magic and the intelligence to use it is what makes the mage strong*, not his strength nor agility which are (typically) reserved for the other two classes. Because of this, without magic, mana, or spells, the mage is just an intelligent dude with a stick and marginal martial skill. Useful for solving puzzles but not as much for surviving battles. If, in any way, a mage's magic is silenced or stripped away from him, he easily becomes the least useful class compared to the other two.
Furthermore, mages have a lot of reliance to objects, trinkets and enchantments, and this makes their power even more difficult to maximize. Great magic powers are hidden in artifacts or godly objects like in tomes or jewelry, and unlike the warrior and the ranger who can train their skills to perfection and be strong by virtue of their natural skill, the capacity of a mage is heavily limited to what he has material access to. Since the power of the mage is mostly external and not as accessible compared to warriors and rangers, he needs to search for his sources of power, be it in study or in relics, to achieve his greatest potential.
Also, training as a mage is a lot more complicated compared to the other classes. There are way too many schools/areas of magic to master and a mage would usually devote his life to just one. It takes a lot of time to master just one school or area, compared to the other classes, which are more narrow yet more compact in the mastery of their skills. Perhaps this is why the most powerful mages are the oldest and most ancient ones, while the most powerful rangers and warriors are usually depicted as being in their "prime".
You might say that mages are usually anti-social and comprise a great deal of villainous powers. For the former, I say that a class does not automatically determine the personality of a character. There are anti-social rangers and warriors just as there mages. For the latter, that is merely testament to the kind of power a mage has. The fact that mages are go-to antagonists means that they have the influence and power to twist macro-elements of a world, like politics, course of nature, and balance of order and chaos in order to cause conflict. Why? Because magic.
**Positives**
That said, now for the main supporting arguments to my view:
*The primary power of the mage is his ability to bend natural laws through magic.*
The other classes are focused on mastering them, like in the fast reloading of a bow or the strong cleave of an axe. Those follow natural laws, only that these classes can do them more efficiently and to a greater effect. Mages, however, *bend them to their will* using magic. Because of this, mages can easily compensate for most of their flaws. Their dependency to magic isn't a problem if they somehow magic an unlimited source of mana or an ultra mana-regenerative enchantment. Their weakness to silence is negligible if they have enchantments that protect them from it. Mages have the potential to be extremely adaptive by right of their magic.
You might say: "Well, that's a cop-out since you're basically arguing that mages are the most powerful class since they can have unlimited source of power and can prevent nullifying forces from taking this power away from them. That's obvious." To counter this, I argue that mages can make more of their unlimited source of power compared to if rangers and warriors had access to a similar source of power with respect to their class:
Mages can master all sorts of powers, like the elements, conjuration, necromancy, and divine influence. Mages are closer to primordial gods than rangers and warriors are solely because of how godly their powers could be. They can raise the dead, conjure objects from nothing, spark fire from their fingertips, throw a gust of wind, contain huge objects in tiny spaces, and many more. While rangers and warriors can cut, pierce, and test the elements, mages can do so much more with *just* the elements (earth, wind, fire, water). They can teleport, turn invisible, transmute materials, charm, enchant objects, enhance their own physical abilities through magic, and understand a great deal of worldly and arcane things through their study.
Moreover, a large fraction of the power of warriors and rangers rely on enchantments which *come from mages*. A warrior would take a flaming sword enchanted by a mage over a normal one. A ranger would take a hood that improves his/her accuracy woven by a mage over an ordinary hood. Even these two classes need magic to gain a higher level of power, and mages are masters of magic.
Also, mages are the most survivable class. Mages can conjure food, water, and shelter. They don't need to construct bridges over rivers simply because they can make bridges out of thin air. They can also heal others and themselves. Mages bring a lot of utility and thus why a lot of sub-types of support classes are more related to mage-types.
I am therefore thoroughly convinced that the strongest mage is more powerful than the strongest warrior or ranger simply because the strongest mages are literally gods. Their power is meant to be *over-powered*. They bend the rules. They have better chances of changing the world physically and politically through their magical power, and thus, the mage is the most powerful class.
This is not to say that the other classes are useless. In fact, all classes complement each other. My argument is that, in the bigger picture, the mage has the most power and I am sure that this view of mine is open to change. I have presented much of the arguments given to me in the past that oppose my view, but my view still stands because of how *easily the mage can compensate for them*. To change it, arguments to the contrary would be appreciated.
Thank you.
| 1,521,982,479
|
onesix16
|
dw99q1n
|
dw99oan
| 10
| 1
|
CMV: It should not be considered offensive to associate black people with fried chicken or watermelon.
While fried chicken's history in the US has ties to slavery, it is in fact a very popular dish, enjoyed by people of every race and class, and no longer has the connotation of cheap, poor people food or food made from discarded scraps of meat if it ever was. It is a positive association then, if unhealthy, but so is eating tons of red meat and people often venerate steak eating as some kind of desirable tough male activity.
Watermelon is also very popular. In 2017, [it was the 6th most popular fruit](https://www.pma.com/content/articles/2017/05/top-20-fruits-and-vegetables-sold-in-the-us) by volume sold in the US. It doesn't have any negative connotations on its own that I've ever heard of, unlike some fruits with negative metaphors, euphemisms, or imagery (ie. banana/eggplants are sometimes used as a penis substitute, the word "lemon" can be used as a synonym for something disappointing, avocados sometimes seen dismissively as hippie food).
However, when you associate black people with eating fried chicken and watermelon, the automatic reaction is that its offensive. Invite a black person to a BBQ and tell him "we'll have fried chicken and watermelon!" and watch them get offended. If a corporation, unless its KFC or Popeye's, shows black people enthusiastically eating fried chicken, they would be excoriated.
My contention is that because the foods themselves are popular and tasty and universally loved, people should stop being offended by the association of a specific group of people to those foods. While it might be annoying if you're black and someone automatically assumes you like those foods, it should be an annoyance borne from repeated inaccuracy rather than assumed malice.
For example, if someone assumes I'm smart and I'm not, I'll be annoyed if I keep getting asked to solve math problems, but I'd be in the wrong if I get annoyed solely because people think I'm smart, I should feel at least flattered. A similar mistake would be the perception that black men have larger penises. Sure, it would suck if you're a black male with a short or average penis, that might cause some awkwardness when you are with a woman for the first time, but the association itself is positive even if a specific black man can't live up to it.
I'm also not saying this will work in all cases. There are absolutely negative associations society has on some groups and people should be taught not to make those because they actually harm people. Positive associations are helpful even if not every person in that group is accurately described by it. At worse, the association of black people with fried chicken and watermelon is neutral if you don't care for those foods, and should not be reacted to as racist.
|
There's zero evidence black people like watermelon anymore than white people. It hasn't been extensively studied, but the only study we have showed that black people purchased accounted for less watermelon sales per capita than the national average.
What there is, however, is [mountains of racist depictions of black people eating watermelon.](https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/12/how-watermelons-became-a-racist-trope/383529/) There are different reasons for the stereotype. One of the biggest was to depict black people as [lazy simpletons who did nothing but eat watermelon.](https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/05/11/310708342/recall-that-ice-cream-truck-song-we-have-unpleasant-news-for-you) Remember the ice cream song (Turkey in the Straw)? Yeah, [there's a racist minstrel show version related to watermelon.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1x6RcYxDc7s) (The video here is not related to the song.)
So, why do you associate watermelon with black people? You should be associating it with white people. It's more true and doesn't have a long history of racism associated with it.
|
Absolutely I would agree that "people often denote their own race and ascribe positive aspects of it in order to associate themselves with perceived benefits". At the same time this leads to a sense of being better than others not in that race, and not just a sense of exclusion by those left out. In so many ways people manage to take something good and work it into a negative.
Yes, you chose fried chicken and watermelon well, which Is exactly why I had to think of vegimite for my counterexample. Come to think of it, even religions use food as an exclusionary device, even so far as to the day of the week some foods may not be eaten, as in Catholics eat fish on Fridays and observe Lent. And Muslims observe Ramadan.
I think that while absolute homogeneity would be a terrible thing we could stand to achieve a bit more commonality between us all.
I like this CMV.
Edit spelling.
|
9fc1w4
|
CMV: It should not be considered offensive to associate black people with fried chicken or watermelon.
|
While fried chicken's history in the US has ties to slavery, it is in fact a very popular dish, enjoyed by people of every race and class, and no longer has the connotation of cheap, poor people food or food made from discarded scraps of meat if it ever was. It is a positive association then, if unhealthy, but so is eating tons of red meat and people often venerate steak eating as some kind of desirable tough male activity.
Watermelon is also very popular. In 2017, [it was the 6th most popular fruit](https://www.pma.com/content/articles/2017/05/top-20-fruits-and-vegetables-sold-in-the-us) by volume sold in the US. It doesn't have any negative connotations on its own that I've ever heard of, unlike some fruits with negative metaphors, euphemisms, or imagery (ie. banana/eggplants are sometimes used as a penis substitute, the word "lemon" can be used as a synonym for something disappointing, avocados sometimes seen dismissively as hippie food).
However, when you associate black people with eating fried chicken and watermelon, the automatic reaction is that its offensive. Invite a black person to a BBQ and tell him "we'll have fried chicken and watermelon!" and watch them get offended. If a corporation, unless its KFC or Popeye's, shows black people enthusiastically eating fried chicken, they would be excoriated.
My contention is that because the foods themselves are popular and tasty and universally loved, people should stop being offended by the association of a specific group of people to those foods. While it might be annoying if you're black and someone automatically assumes you like those foods, it should be an annoyance borne from repeated inaccuracy rather than assumed malice.
For example, if someone assumes I'm smart and I'm not, I'll be annoyed if I keep getting asked to solve math problems, but I'd be in the wrong if I get annoyed solely because people think I'm smart, I should feel at least flattered. A similar mistake would be the perception that black men have larger penises. Sure, it would suck if you're a black male with a short or average penis, that might cause some awkwardness when you are with a woman for the first time, but the association itself is positive even if a specific black man can't live up to it.
I'm also not saying this will work in all cases. There are absolutely negative associations society has on some groups and people should be taught not to make those because they actually harm people. Positive associations are helpful even if not every person in that group is accurately described by it. At worse, the association of black people with fried chicken and watermelon is neutral if you don't care for those foods, and should not be reacted to as racist.
| 1,536,788,698
|
TimeAll
|
e5vlg21
|
e5vj6u4
| 3
| 2
|
CMV: the Dark Knight trilogy is much better than the marvel movies.
TDK trilogy was mind blowing. For starters, the cast is exceptional. Batman and all of the villains are portrayed as being more realistic, which makes it much more realistic in a thrilling/horror sense.
All marvel movies today feel like a cash generated flick. There’s not much depth, especially in the newer ones such as black panther, etc. I get that there’s 18 movies compared to 3, so there’s a lead up to a big movie (infinity war) but even then, the trilogy as a whole was much better than infinity war.
The obvious exceptional part of TDK cast was heath ledger. There’s just not ANY villains in ANY marvel movie that compare to him. Not even close. He played such a psychopath and his method acting and improvisation was the best I have ever seen in a movie. The make up was amazing as it wasn’t too comical. He PERFECTED the walk, laugh, mindset and everything the joker has to offer.
Tom Hardy was exceptional as Bane. Instead of being the veiny, lab rat that the comic books show, he’s portrayed as a beefy guy that can cause terror, which is realistic and makes it that much scarier. The destruction he caused was amazing. The mask was an awesome touch, although at times his voice was hard to understand the first time around.
Christian Bale was a good Batman. His voice in the first two movies were meh, but TDKR figured it out to be less raspy so that you could understand him. Overall, he played Bruce Wayne/Batman great and was memorable.
Don’t get me wrong, I like the marvel movies. Infinity war was a great movie. I love guardians. Maybe I’m inclined to the realism that TDK trilogy presents compared to the extra sci-fi found in the marcel movies, but overall I find the trilogy to have much better depth, acting, and plot.
|
It’s not exactly fair to compare three movies with a fairly unitary vision produced by one of the truly auteur filmmakers of his generation to ~20 movies by different filmmakers in different genres trying to accomplish different things. That said, what the MCU has pulled off is frankly more impressive than the Nolan trilogy.
Great filmmakers produce great movies, and there have been many great filmmakers who made great trilogies. Nolan applied that to a comic book-based trilogy, but he’s still in the same general artistic space as many of his predecessors. And, frankly, they don’t hold up as well as they could once you start to scratch at them. I’ve never heard anyone say “Wow, Batman Begins, what a movie!” The Dark Knight Rises really doesn’t make that much sense if you think about it too hard. The Dark Knight is a great film, but that’s still one out of three once you really stare hard at them.
Pulling together a 20+ film universe that is reasonably coherent, consistently at least decent in quality, and often outright really good? That’s a damn impressive feat that no one else has managed to do before. Maybe no single MCU film is as good as Dark Knight, but a number of them are at least as good as Batman Begins and some are arguably better than both that and Dark Knight Rises. Heck, I’d argue that Thor 3’s ability to be serious, epic and still incorporate the absurdity of comic books in a respectful way is a far more interesting take on the genre than just using “dark and gritty” as a stand-in for “deep and realistic.”
|
Would you claim it’s better than all marvel movies, or just marvel in general? If it’s the former, then I’ll argue that the original Iron man is the best big-budget superhero movie. If it’s the latter, then I have to agree with you (there are some marvel movies that I just can’t defend)
|
94nue5
|
CMV: the Dark Knight trilogy is much better than the marvel movies.
|
TDK trilogy was mind blowing. For starters, the cast is exceptional. Batman and all of the villains are portrayed as being more realistic, which makes it much more realistic in a thrilling/horror sense.
All marvel movies today feel like a cash generated flick. There’s not much depth, especially in the newer ones such as black panther, etc. I get that there’s 18 movies compared to 3, so there’s a lead up to a big movie (infinity war) but even then, the trilogy as a whole was much better than infinity war.
The obvious exceptional part of TDK cast was heath ledger. There’s just not ANY villains in ANY marvel movie that compare to him. Not even close. He played such a psychopath and his method acting and improvisation was the best I have ever seen in a movie. The make up was amazing as it wasn’t too comical. He PERFECTED the walk, laugh, mindset and everything the joker has to offer.
Tom Hardy was exceptional as Bane. Instead of being the veiny, lab rat that the comic books show, he’s portrayed as a beefy guy that can cause terror, which is realistic and makes it that much scarier. The destruction he caused was amazing. The mask was an awesome touch, although at times his voice was hard to understand the first time around.
Christian Bale was a good Batman. His voice in the first two movies were meh, but TDKR figured it out to be less raspy so that you could understand him. Overall, he played Bruce Wayne/Batman great and was memorable.
Don’t get me wrong, I like the marvel movies. Infinity war was a great movie. I love guardians. Maybe I’m inclined to the realism that TDK trilogy presents compared to the extra sci-fi found in the marcel movies, but overall I find the trilogy to have much better depth, acting, and plot.
| 1,533,428,997
|
stabler22
|
e3mfuc1
|
e3me98l
| 10
| 2
|
CMV: We shouldn't censor hate speech.
There are certain things that aren't protected under freedom of speech, those being things like incitement of violence, immediate threats, yelling fire in a crowded theater, etc. I'm not talking about those things. Slander and stuff like that aren't ok, and to my knowledge, aren't legal. It should stay that way.
I'm talking about bigotry and genuinely damaging political views, like Nazism and white supremacy. I don't these things should be censored. I think that censorship of some undeniably bad political positions would force a similar thing to what prohibition or the war on drugs caused: pushing the problem into the underground and giving the public a perspective of "out of sight, out of mind". Censorship of political opinions doesn't do much to silence political positions, it just forces them to get clever with their rhetoric.
This happened in Germany in the interwar period. The SPD, the party in charge of Germany at the time, banned the Nazi party after they had tried to stage an uprising that we now know as the Beer Hall Putsch. We also know that the SPD's attempts to silence the Nazis ultimately failed. Nazi influence grew in the underground, until Hitler eventually convinced Bavaria to repeal the ban on the Nazi party. Banning the party didn't suddenly make the people and their influence vanish, it just forced the Nazi's to get clever, and, instead of using blatant means, to utilize legal processes to win.
This also happened after the Civil War, when the Union withdrew from the South. After Union withdrawal, Southern anti-black sentiment was still powerful and took the form of Jim Crow laws. After the social banning and the legal banning of discrimination in the form of Americans no longer accepting racist rhetoric en masse and the Civil Rights Act, racism didn't suddenly disappear. It simply got smarter. The Southern Strategy, and how Republicans won the South, was by appealing to White voters by pushing economic policies that 'just so happen' to disproportionately benefit white people and disproportionately hurt black people.
Censorship doesn't work. It only pushes the problem out of sight, allowing for the public to be put at ease while other, generally harmful, political positions are learning how to sneak their rhetoric under the radar.
Instead, we must take an active role in sifting through policies and politicians in order to find whether or not they're trying to sneak possibly racist rhetoric under the radar. And if we find it, we must publicly tear down their arguments and expose the rhetoric for what it is. If we publicly show exactly how the alt-right and other harmful groups sneak their rhetoric into what could be seen as common policy, we can learn better how to protect ourselves and our communities from that kind of dangerous position.
An active role in the combatting of violent extremism is vital to ensure things like the rise of the Nazi party, the KKK, and the Capitol Insurrection don't happen again.
Edit: I should specify I'm very willing to change my opinion on this. I simply don't see a better way to stop violent extremism without giving the government large amounts of power.
|
I might have to give you a !delta here. I still think that they will spread their message regardless, but there isn’t a very logical reason why they’d fear deplatforming.
|
Once a private company gets to a certain size I don't see a practical difference. Major social media sites are practically the new public square and most principled reasoning's against censorship carry over.
|
muvrf4
|
CMV: We shouldn't censor hate speech.
|
There are certain things that aren't protected under freedom of speech, those being things like incitement of violence, immediate threats, yelling fire in a crowded theater, etc. I'm not talking about those things. Slander and stuff like that aren't ok, and to my knowledge, aren't legal. It should stay that way.
I'm talking about bigotry and genuinely damaging political views, like Nazism and white supremacy. I don't these things should be censored. I think that censorship of some undeniably bad political positions would force a similar thing to what prohibition or the war on drugs caused: pushing the problem into the underground and giving the public a perspective of "out of sight, out of mind". Censorship of political opinions doesn't do much to silence political positions, it just forces them to get clever with their rhetoric.
This happened in Germany in the interwar period. The SPD, the party in charge of Germany at the time, banned the Nazi party after they had tried to stage an uprising that we now know as the Beer Hall Putsch. We also know that the SPD's attempts to silence the Nazis ultimately failed. Nazi influence grew in the underground, until Hitler eventually convinced Bavaria to repeal the ban on the Nazi party. Banning the party didn't suddenly make the people and their influence vanish, it just forced the Nazi's to get clever, and, instead of using blatant means, to utilize legal processes to win.
This also happened after the Civil War, when the Union withdrew from the South. After Union withdrawal, Southern anti-black sentiment was still powerful and took the form of Jim Crow laws. After the social banning and the legal banning of discrimination in the form of Americans no longer accepting racist rhetoric en masse and the Civil Rights Act, racism didn't suddenly disappear. It simply got smarter. The Southern Strategy, and how Republicans won the South, was by appealing to White voters by pushing economic policies that 'just so happen' to disproportionately benefit white people and disproportionately hurt black people.
Censorship doesn't work. It only pushes the problem out of sight, allowing for the public to be put at ease while other, generally harmful, political positions are learning how to sneak their rhetoric under the radar.
Instead, we must take an active role in sifting through policies and politicians in order to find whether or not they're trying to sneak possibly racist rhetoric under the radar. And if we find it, we must publicly tear down their arguments and expose the rhetoric for what it is. If we publicly show exactly how the alt-right and other harmful groups sneak their rhetoric into what could be seen as common policy, we can learn better how to protect ourselves and our communities from that kind of dangerous position.
An active role in the combatting of violent extremism is vital to ensure things like the rise of the Nazi party, the KKK, and the Capitol Insurrection don't happen again.
Edit: I should specify I'm very willing to change my opinion on this. I simply don't see a better way to stop violent extremism without giving the government large amounts of power.
| 1,618,940,153
|
Butterboi_Oooska
|
gv8ne08
|
gv89mkj
| 5
| -2
|
CMV: Terms such as "Homophobia" and "Transphobia" should be renamed or done away with.
The Latin root "phobia" refers to a fear or panic in response to stimuli. However, terms such as "Transphobia" are not used in context of people being genuinely afraid of transgenders, but rather used as an insult simply to call people who do not agree with the prospect of changing your gender. This post isn't about whether or not you can do so or whether or not homosexuality is okay, it is about the specific word usage of homophobia and transphobia.
Most people you will encounter and have discussions with are not afraid of transgenders or homosexuals. In fact, you would be hard pressed to find someone genuinely afraid of them. This is not to say that there are no people who may discriminate against those people, but that the number of people who genuinely fear transgenders and homosexuals is way too low, especially in proportion to everyone else, to justify the widespread usage of words like trans/homophobia.
|
Words don’t always use the direct definition of their Latin/Greek roots. For example, halophilic bacteria don’t really “love” salt, they just have adapted to an environment with high salinity.
If your response is “then we should do away with those words too,” I would say that you’re right to not like the misuse of roots, but we can’t just overhaul our entire language. Sometimes things just don’t quite make sense, so we have to learn exceptions to rules.
|
Do you also think that the word 'hydrophobia' should be changed?
|
94nwf4
|
CMV: Terms such as "Homophobia" and "Transphobia" should be renamed or done away with.
|
The Latin root "phobia" refers to a fear or panic in response to stimuli. However, terms such as "Transphobia" are not used in context of people being genuinely afraid of transgenders, but rather used as an insult simply to call people who do not agree with the prospect of changing your gender. This post isn't about whether or not you can do so or whether or not homosexuality is okay, it is about the specific word usage of homophobia and transphobia.
Most people you will encounter and have discussions with are not afraid of transgenders or homosexuals. In fact, you would be hard pressed to find someone genuinely afraid of them. This is not to say that there are no people who may discriminate against those people, but that the number of people who genuinely fear transgenders and homosexuals is way too low, especially in proportion to everyone else, to justify the widespread usage of words like trans/homophobia.
| 1,533,429,540
|
TheRougishSmithy
|
e3mf5e8
|
e3melev
| 32
| 6
|
CMV: Asperger’s isn’t a thing
Please change my view. This argument is full of holes.
Here is my bad argument.
~~I don’t believe in Asperger’s. I know I’m setting myself up for downvotes or harassment, but in my opinion, people are just people. Others could have some of the same symptoms, but have a different label. Where does the “spectrum” end‽ Some people legitimately need help. A designation is needed so their condition isn’t ignored and they can get the help they need. **I am actually asking for help changing this point of view.**
Aggression can be normal because some people just get mad easily. That being said, it is still usually problematic. Compulsive behavior can be a symptom of many other conditions, which ties into autism being too arbitrary.~~
>Fidgeting
so what
>impulsivity
some people are just more impulsive. “Neurotypical” individuals can mentally become more impulsive by just choosing to ignore consequences and people who are can be taught to stop, so why the scarlet letter?
>repetitive movements
Humans make a lot of repetitive movements every day. Breathing, walking, typing Reddit comments, etc.
>social isolation
again, so what? they’re all just introverts, afraid, or people who need their alone time.
>persistent repetition of words or actions
see repetitive moments. Also, you can be repetitive and neurotypical, so...
>inability to combine muscle movements
combining *any* task can be hard.
>poor coordination
maybe they just have poor coordination, why is that an autistic trait?
>tic
I would point back to “repetitive actions”, but that would be “repetitive”.
>anger
>anxiety
>apprehension
there are normal reasons for all of these.
>depression
have you ever though that maybe it’s just... depression?
>intense interest in a limited number of things
Literally ***𝙀𝙑𝙀𝙍𝙔𝙊𝙉𝙀*** is guilty of this. [deep breath] Everyone is subscribed to different subreddits. Some of us like Facebook. Some like Instagram. Some like... Reddit. And everything is limited. Guess what, everyone has autistic traits. So why isn’t everyone autistic or some other “disorder”. Cue the “not a disorder, but different order” cliché here.
>learning disability
again, many reasons.
>nightmares
also too common to say for certain. Most of these are, but that one nightmare that you had back when you were 3 on top of whatever traits you have doesn’t magically push you over the line to Autismland.
>sensitivity to sound
misophonia? person from quiet place being bombarded with more noise than they’re used to? does the jet plane overhead make you an Aspie?
.~~
|
Honestly, your argument seems to be to rip apart a diagnose in pieces, and then either dismiss or find another explanation for all of that.
Problem is, with that nonsense logic you can dismiss pretty much anything.
For example :
>depression
...
>hose who suffer from depression experience persistent feelings of sadness and hopelessness and lose interest in activities they once enjoyed. Aside from the emotional problems caused by depression, individuals can also present with a physical symptom such as chronic pain or digestive issues.
You can dismiss each of those things. Everyone is sad once, everyone feels hopelessness at some point, everyone changes hobbies, everyone can have a bit of pain or digestive issues.
|
>The reason I think it shpuld is a vague memory of reading an article that noted differences in MRIs between Asperger patients and autistics
I mean, yes, there are differences between people who used to be diagnosed with Asperger's and the old diagnosis for ASD, but there is significant evidence that they are actually just different presentations of the same type of condition. That's why people who were considered "Asperger's" are now classified as being on the autism spectrum.
|
a8bobs
|
CMV: Asperger’s isn’t a thing
|
Please change my view. This argument is full of holes.
Here is my bad argument.
~~I don’t believe in Asperger’s. I know I’m setting myself up for downvotes or harassment, but in my opinion, people are just people. Others could have some of the same symptoms, but have a different label. Where does the “spectrum” end‽ Some people legitimately need help. A designation is needed so their condition isn’t ignored and they can get the help they need. **I am actually asking for help changing this point of view.**
Aggression can be normal because some people just get mad easily. That being said, it is still usually problematic. Compulsive behavior can be a symptom of many other conditions, which ties into autism being too arbitrary.~~
>Fidgeting
so what
>impulsivity
some people are just more impulsive. “Neurotypical” individuals can mentally become more impulsive by just choosing to ignore consequences and people who are can be taught to stop, so why the scarlet letter?
>repetitive movements
Humans make a lot of repetitive movements every day. Breathing, walking, typing Reddit comments, etc.
>social isolation
again, so what? they’re all just introverts, afraid, or people who need their alone time.
>persistent repetition of words or actions
see repetitive moments. Also, you can be repetitive and neurotypical, so...
>inability to combine muscle movements
combining *any* task can be hard.
>poor coordination
maybe they just have poor coordination, why is that an autistic trait?
>tic
I would point back to “repetitive actions”, but that would be “repetitive”.
>anger
>anxiety
>apprehension
there are normal reasons for all of these.
>depression
have you ever though that maybe it’s just... depression?
>intense interest in a limited number of things
Literally ***𝙀𝙑𝙀𝙍𝙔𝙊𝙉𝙀*** is guilty of this. [deep breath] Everyone is subscribed to different subreddits. Some of us like Facebook. Some like Instagram. Some like... Reddit. And everything is limited. Guess what, everyone has autistic traits. So why isn’t everyone autistic or some other “disorder”. Cue the “not a disorder, but different order” cliché here.
>learning disability
again, many reasons.
>nightmares
also too common to say for certain. Most of these are, but that one nightmare that you had back when you were 3 on top of whatever traits you have doesn’t magically push you over the line to Autismland.
>sensitivity to sound
misophonia? person from quiet place being bombarded with more noise than they’re used to? does the jet plane overhead make you an Aspie?
.~~
| 1,545,410,036
|
OkCustard
|
ec9ozys
|
ec9o2nj
| 24
| 4
|
CMV: Glitter is terrible and has no redeeming qualities
Glitter makes me want to die. It never stays where it's supposed to, it looks pretty tacky outside of 1st Grade arts and crafts, it resists lint rollers and vacuums, and given the opportunity it would probably resist duct tape (so don't give it to 1st Graders anyway).
If you send me a greeting card with glitter on it, you will lose happy friend points™ with me. If you wear a dress with glitter on it and enter my house, you get to pay for the Hazmat team and the new furniture.
Like asbestos, the only sensible thing to do with it is submerge it entirely in glue for safe transportation and then melt it down into its harmless components.
|
> the only sensible thing to do with it is submerge it entirely in glue for safe transportation
Why not just start with a product that fixes that? Such as [glitter glue](https://www.amazon.com/Elmers-Liquid-Glitter-Washable-Assorted/dp/B008M56YZU). I don't have any of the issues you're describing with glitter glue. Or things like glitter nail polish. Glitter is great in those kinds of products.
|
It's shiny though. People like shiny things, especially kids.
I was wrapping Christmas gifts with other people yesterday and we had a lot of different wrapping paper to choose from. I used the shiny wrapping paper that glimmered. Everyone was asking me when I'd be done with it because they also wanted to use it rather than the matte looking paper. Granted glitter is messy, but for many the mess is worth the shiny and receiving the shiny is worth the slight side effects of eternal shiny dots.
|
a8dgsd
|
CMV: Glitter is terrible and has no redeeming qualities
|
Glitter makes me want to die. It never stays where it's supposed to, it looks pretty tacky outside of 1st Grade arts and crafts, it resists lint rollers and vacuums, and given the opportunity it would probably resist duct tape (so don't give it to 1st Graders anyway).
If you send me a greeting card with glitter on it, you will lose happy friend points™ with me. If you wear a dress with glitter on it and enter my house, you get to pay for the Hazmat team and the new furniture.
Like asbestos, the only sensible thing to do with it is submerge it entirely in glue for safe transportation and then melt it down into its harmless components.
| 1,545,420,480
|
xXavailablenameXx
|
ec9vpv2
|
ec9ukdd
| 30
| 13
|
CMV: Black American Nationalism is far more ethical and justified than White American Nationalism is.
Ethnic Nationalist movements in the past have been about protecting an ethnic minority from further oppression by giving them their own country. Examples include the independence of Greece from the Ottoman Empire, and the creation of the state of Israel. There have been ethnic nationalist movements involving a racial majority instead of an ethnic minority, but this was generally due to slavery or direct colonization. The examples of that would be the Haitian Revolution or the Irish War of Independence.
So looking at the USA's race relations and history, there is a very obvious case for African-Americans wanting to form their own ethnostate. Clearly, they have been viciously oppressed for hundreds of years, have serious trouble integrating into a majority non-Black country, and have developed a distinctive culture and identity for themselves apart from the general American mainstream. Therefore, creating a sovereign state that only consists of African-Americans, where they can rule themselves and no longer depend on another race that continually mistreats them, would be an effective solution to Black racial issues and would just be another typical example of ethnic nationalism. There is also a clear case for similar ethnic nationalism movements for other involuntary minorities in the USA like Native Americans, Puerto Ricans, Hawaiians, Native Alaskans, etc. Black Nationalism and similar movements are about simply improving the main racial community and trying to separate from a relationship with the greater society, similar to a divorce. For African-Americans, ethnic nationalism is just a means to an end (the end being living in a prosperous society free of bigotry) not an end in and of itself. Black Americans would have no problem with multiculturalism or assimilation or miscegenation or civic nationalism into a greater American identity if Whites and non-Blacks in the USA fully accepted them, since that is not happening, ethnic nationalism is a tool to help protect the African-American community.
White Nationalism in the 21st Century though, is nothing like the Ethnic Nationalist movements in the past. White Americans currently have demographic, political, and economic control of the United States. So in this case, there is no clear picture of victimization or segregation from the mainstream because White Americans by and large are the ones in power and they are the mainstream of the USA. So the question is, why do some White Americans want to separate from a nation they already own? The answer seems to be some Whites are scared of losing control of the country because of non-White immigration. But as long as White Americans can maintain their own careers and neighborhoods, why is non-White immigration a problem? And this is where American White Nationalism seriously departs from other ethnic nationalist movements in the past. While ethnic nationalism of the involuntary minorities is about stopping the further marginalization of groups by giving them their own nation-state, White Nationalism seems to be about clinging to national dominance at the expense of others. This is why a lot of White nationalists activists and forums are about how undesirable non-Whites are physically and intellectually and socially and culturally and biologically and aesthetically. White Nationalists also tend to live vicariously through the accomplishments of their ancestors and how European culture and ancestry must be preserved in North America. American White Nationalism is not a defensive move to protect an ethnicity but is really just thinly-veiled fascism. For White Nationalists, ethnic nationalism is the desired end instead of a tool. Even in a multicultural and multi-ethnic utopia full of wonderful people, White separatists would still want to break off into their own country because they want a special land with special privileges just for themselves. I can see why White Separatism would make sense in countries where White people are a minority that could be potentially victimized like in South Africa or Brazil, but in 2019 America, White Nationalism seems excessively reactionary at best and an excuse for ethnic cleansing at worst.
So that is why Black Nationalism or Native American Nationalism is far more justifiable than White Nationalism. Black Pride and Native Pride is about celebrating the history and culture of a ethnic minority despite the various hardships they went through. White Pride on the other hand, is either redundant in a lot of cases because White culture is the norm, or is inherently inflammatory since Whiteness in American history/society has been generally used to segregate and marginalize unwanted groups of people. Black Nationalists simply want what White people have currently, a complete control of a country that looks out for their own interests; White Nationalism is just being used as an excuse to dispossess and marginalize other groups of people. Black Nationalists don't care about how other races compare culturally or physically or economically, as a matter of fact, Black Nationalists doesn't really care about the scientific validity of race at all because Black Nationalism's purpose is to give power to an oppressed group of people. White Nationalists however, cannot justify their views or actions without creating a racial hierarchy that gives particular value to people of European descent and paints people of color as undesirable. Maybe if White Americans somehow become a tiny minority, a White separatist state might make more sense, but even such a scenario, I doubt White Americans will ever be in as much of a dire need for ethnic nationalism as the involuntary minorities of the United States are right now.
TL;DR: Black Nationalism generally goes like "Being an ethnic minority is not working out good for us. Non-Blacks keep persecuting and oppressing us and we are unable to integrate into this society. We need our own country." White Nationalism tends to goes like "These foreign subhumans are polluting our pure European race. Let's nationalize and kick the inferiors out of this land."
To Change My View, I don't really care about the logistics of Ethnic Nationalism. My argument is that Black Nationalism (or nationalism for any involuntary minority) is morally and politically justified, and the reasons they're justified does not apply to White Nationalism in the slightest.
|
I wouldn't use Israel as a successful example. Ironically, they are doing to their neighbors what their historical oppressors did to them. They've encroached into Palestinian territory, taken over foreign settlements, built walls and turned their neighbors' land into tightly regulated slums. And when the local palestinians fight back, they are called "terrorists" and used to justify more aggression and military action.
I think all nationalism is bad. All civil rights ultimately resolve down to human rights. What tribe you're part of, as history shows, often becomes a catalyst to justify an inconsistent treatment of other fellow humans. The emphasis should not be nationalism or tribalism, but *humanism*.
Yes, not all countries, races or tribes are treated equal, but looking at all people as part of the one human tribe, will allow us to identify these inequities and deal with them more efficiently. When you single out a specific race, you may be able to temporarily offset inequity for that race, but you don't gain any great equity in the long term struggle for universal human rights for all.
|
Obviously there is no question that black nationalism doesn't carry the same connotations as white nationalism. It would be ridiculous to compare the two.
The problem is that even reactive ethnic nationalism, motivated by genuine grievances, has been used to justify violence and further dispossession. Look at the example that you gave, of Israel. Justified grievances and fear of further oppression has resulted in a hardline far right nationalism in Israel that promotes violence against non-Jewish people in that country. The origins of that nationalism are very far from the origins of white supremacy, but when the state is bulldozing houses, seizing land, and behaving like any other colonial power, it's not a great situation and maybe nationalism isn't the solution.
Another example to consider is Liberia: African Americans colonized a territory in Africa in the 1820s and oppressed the local African population, who couldn't even vote and existed as second class citizens. The Americo-Liberians' original intentions seem very justifiable, but that didn't make the results any better for the locals.
|
e2hdvx
|
CMV: Black American Nationalism is far more ethical and justified than White American Nationalism is.
|
Ethnic Nationalist movements in the past have been about protecting an ethnic minority from further oppression by giving them their own country. Examples include the independence of Greece from the Ottoman Empire, and the creation of the state of Israel. There have been ethnic nationalist movements involving a racial majority instead of an ethnic minority, but this was generally due to slavery or direct colonization. The examples of that would be the Haitian Revolution or the Irish War of Independence.
So looking at the USA's race relations and history, there is a very obvious case for African-Americans wanting to form their own ethnostate. Clearly, they have been viciously oppressed for hundreds of years, have serious trouble integrating into a majority non-Black country, and have developed a distinctive culture and identity for themselves apart from the general American mainstream. Therefore, creating a sovereign state that only consists of African-Americans, where they can rule themselves and no longer depend on another race that continually mistreats them, would be an effective solution to Black racial issues and would just be another typical example of ethnic nationalism. There is also a clear case for similar ethnic nationalism movements for other involuntary minorities in the USA like Native Americans, Puerto Ricans, Hawaiians, Native Alaskans, etc. Black Nationalism and similar movements are about simply improving the main racial community and trying to separate from a relationship with the greater society, similar to a divorce. For African-Americans, ethnic nationalism is just a means to an end (the end being living in a prosperous society free of bigotry) not an end in and of itself. Black Americans would have no problem with multiculturalism or assimilation or miscegenation or civic nationalism into a greater American identity if Whites and non-Blacks in the USA fully accepted them, since that is not happening, ethnic nationalism is a tool to help protect the African-American community.
White Nationalism in the 21st Century though, is nothing like the Ethnic Nationalist movements in the past. White Americans currently have demographic, political, and economic control of the United States. So in this case, there is no clear picture of victimization or segregation from the mainstream because White Americans by and large are the ones in power and they are the mainstream of the USA. So the question is, why do some White Americans want to separate from a nation they already own? The answer seems to be some Whites are scared of losing control of the country because of non-White immigration. But as long as White Americans can maintain their own careers and neighborhoods, why is non-White immigration a problem? And this is where American White Nationalism seriously departs from other ethnic nationalist movements in the past. While ethnic nationalism of the involuntary minorities is about stopping the further marginalization of groups by giving them their own nation-state, White Nationalism seems to be about clinging to national dominance at the expense of others. This is why a lot of White nationalists activists and forums are about how undesirable non-Whites are physically and intellectually and socially and culturally and biologically and aesthetically. White Nationalists also tend to live vicariously through the accomplishments of their ancestors and how European culture and ancestry must be preserved in North America. American White Nationalism is not a defensive move to protect an ethnicity but is really just thinly-veiled fascism. For White Nationalists, ethnic nationalism is the desired end instead of a tool. Even in a multicultural and multi-ethnic utopia full of wonderful people, White separatists would still want to break off into their own country because they want a special land with special privileges just for themselves. I can see why White Separatism would make sense in countries where White people are a minority that could be potentially victimized like in South Africa or Brazil, but in 2019 America, White Nationalism seems excessively reactionary at best and an excuse for ethnic cleansing at worst.
So that is why Black Nationalism or Native American Nationalism is far more justifiable than White Nationalism. Black Pride and Native Pride is about celebrating the history and culture of a ethnic minority despite the various hardships they went through. White Pride on the other hand, is either redundant in a lot of cases because White culture is the norm, or is inherently inflammatory since Whiteness in American history/society has been generally used to segregate and marginalize unwanted groups of people. Black Nationalists simply want what White people have currently, a complete control of a country that looks out for their own interests; White Nationalism is just being used as an excuse to dispossess and marginalize other groups of people. Black Nationalists don't care about how other races compare culturally or physically or economically, as a matter of fact, Black Nationalists doesn't really care about the scientific validity of race at all because Black Nationalism's purpose is to give power to an oppressed group of people. White Nationalists however, cannot justify their views or actions without creating a racial hierarchy that gives particular value to people of European descent and paints people of color as undesirable. Maybe if White Americans somehow become a tiny minority, a White separatist state might make more sense, but even such a scenario, I doubt White Americans will ever be in as much of a dire need for ethnic nationalism as the involuntary minorities of the United States are right now.
TL;DR: Black Nationalism generally goes like "Being an ethnic minority is not working out good for us. Non-Blacks keep persecuting and oppressing us and we are unable to integrate into this society. We need our own country." White Nationalism tends to goes like "These foreign subhumans are polluting our pure European race. Let's nationalize and kick the inferiors out of this land."
To Change My View, I don't really care about the logistics of Ethnic Nationalism. My argument is that Black Nationalism (or nationalism for any involuntary minority) is morally and politically justified, and the reasons they're justified does not apply to White Nationalism in the slightest.
| 1,574,867,802
|
PlaneSoftware4
|
f8w5nv6
|
f8vwnl0
| 5
| 1
|
CMV: "Free" healthcare would result in the care being too expensive, or the care quality being reduced
This view occurred to me the other day when a friend was telling me about their experience at the dentist. They are self-employed, and very healthy. So this person has chosen to have health insurance that doesn't cover much, but doesn't cost much.
At the dentist, she didn't want to get x-rays because they have never revealed anything significant, and she has no outward issues. I'm sure there is flaws in her view here, but that isn't the point. The dentists office said "go ahead and get the xrays, they are free, insurance will cover the full cost".
Essentially the attitude is that if insurance normally covers the full cost, they want to just go ahead and do it even if they can't produce a good reason to do so.
So what if EVERYTHING were covered? Now clinics are going to orders cat scans and a whole bunch of others things routinely without any analysis as to why. And why wouldn't they? It's all "free" after all. Costs will skyrocket. And that's on top of the increase in demand since the services are now free to the patient as well.
Government could crack down on this of course, but now the quality of the care will be reduced since there will be less preventative care.
Something would need to give. The services that are "free" would need to be the most basic of care, or everyone would need to pay a lot more in taxes. Or government would need to cap prices on everything.
Before you make a comment comparing the US to other countries, please read this: [https://www.forbes.com/sites/physiciansfoundation/2018/04/09/u-s-health-outcomes-compared-to-other-countries-are-misleading/#5243665d1232](https://www.forbes.com/sites/physiciansfoundation/2018/04/09/u-s-health-outcomes-compared-to-other-countries-are-misleading/#5243665d1232)
It's a good summary of my view that the metrics on quality of healthcare are missing massive amounts of very important data. So comparing us against another country is unlikely to help change my view.
|
I'm going to point you to \[[this study](https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/pdf/10.1377/hlthaff.2014.1414)\] which is a study that showed that there are 50 hospitals in this country that charge 10 times the medicare allowable rate while the national average is 3.4 times the medicare allowable rate. 49 out of the 50 were for profit hospitals.
This means the hospitals have willingly decided to give service to medicare patients and will accept that fee when the government sets the rate but when they set the rate themselves they charge 3.4 times as much and for 50 hospitals they charge 10 times as much. In other words, they can afford to give treatment at the medicare rate but realize they can charge insurance companies up to 10 times the medicare rate.
​
The reason hospitals can get away with this is because in many cities there is only one healthcare provider so they have a monopoly. Another reason is because the there is no effective way for customers to compare health care costs between multiple plans. In other works, there is little to no market influence on most health care providers.
​
You may say that the hospitals might have to charge more to non medicare recipients to cover the medicare patients. My argument against that would be that it would still drive the costs way down because the government would still be setting the healthcare rates and the hospital would either accept it or go out of business. For example, the VA currently pays 40% as much for medication compared to private pharmacies because they buy in such large quantities, they can negotiate much lower rates.
|
But the only reason they do things like that is because they want to get as much money from insurance companies as possible. It's like when I cut my finger trying to wittle wood, they just absolutely "needed an x-ray in case there was wood in the cut." If the government took over with universal healthcare, they'd 1) be able to demand costs closer to actual value, like they do with eminent domain. 2) cut down on the often times just wasteful nature of hospitals by telling hospitals that nobody is paying for those.
As far as care and quality goes, there is some argument for that but it's pretty weak in my opinion. If we adopted something like what the UK has, then we would see certain things happen that might be construed as a drop in quality. You may run into a long wait time because the way the UK works (from my understanding) is much like the ER in that they're going to handle the most dire issues first. So that means you might have to book your regular check-up 6 or 7 months in advance, and you may end up having to wait 4 months to get that ingrown toenail cut out. But my thoughts on this issue are that most people go to the doctor before they need to anyways and most people can learn to be a little bit more patient towards minor inconveniences.
|
e2les2
|
CMV: "Free" healthcare would result in the care being too expensive, or the care quality being reduced
|
This view occurred to me the other day when a friend was telling me about their experience at the dentist. They are self-employed, and very healthy. So this person has chosen to have health insurance that doesn't cover much, but doesn't cost much.
At the dentist, she didn't want to get x-rays because they have never revealed anything significant, and she has no outward issues. I'm sure there is flaws in her view here, but that isn't the point. The dentists office said "go ahead and get the xrays, they are free, insurance will cover the full cost".
Essentially the attitude is that if insurance normally covers the full cost, they want to just go ahead and do it even if they can't produce a good reason to do so.
So what if EVERYTHING were covered? Now clinics are going to orders cat scans and a whole bunch of others things routinely without any analysis as to why. And why wouldn't they? It's all "free" after all. Costs will skyrocket. And that's on top of the increase in demand since the services are now free to the patient as well.
Government could crack down on this of course, but now the quality of the care will be reduced since there will be less preventative care.
Something would need to give. The services that are "free" would need to be the most basic of care, or everyone would need to pay a lot more in taxes. Or government would need to cap prices on everything.
Before you make a comment comparing the US to other countries, please read this: [https://www.forbes.com/sites/physiciansfoundation/2018/04/09/u-s-health-outcomes-compared-to-other-countries-are-misleading/#5243665d1232](https://www.forbes.com/sites/physiciansfoundation/2018/04/09/u-s-health-outcomes-compared-to-other-countries-are-misleading/#5243665d1232)
It's a good summary of my view that the metrics on quality of healthcare are missing massive amounts of very important data. So comparing us against another country is unlikely to help change my view.
| 1,574,883,395
|
ZeusThunder369
|
f8w9qve
|
f8w6zac
| 23
| 1
|
CMV: We shouldn't censor hate speech.
There are certain things that aren't protected under freedom of speech, those being things like incitement of violence, immediate threats, yelling fire in a crowded theater, etc. I'm not talking about those things. Slander and stuff like that aren't ok, and to my knowledge, aren't legal. It should stay that way.
I'm talking about bigotry and genuinely damaging political views, like Nazism and white supremacy. I don't these things should be censored. I think that censorship of some undeniably bad political positions would force a similar thing to what prohibition or the war on drugs caused: pushing the problem into the underground and giving the public a perspective of "out of sight, out of mind". Censorship of political opinions doesn't do much to silence political positions, it just forces them to get clever with their rhetoric.
This happened in Germany in the interwar period. The SPD, the party in charge of Germany at the time, banned the Nazi party after they had tried to stage an uprising that we now know as the Beer Hall Putsch. We also know that the SPD's attempts to silence the Nazis ultimately failed. Nazi influence grew in the underground, until Hitler eventually convinced Bavaria to repeal the ban on the Nazi party. Banning the party didn't suddenly make the people and their influence vanish, it just forced the Nazi's to get clever, and, instead of using blatant means, to utilize legal processes to win.
This also happened after the Civil War, when the Union withdrew from the South. After Union withdrawal, Southern anti-black sentiment was still powerful and took the form of Jim Crow laws. After the social banning and the legal banning of discrimination in the form of Americans no longer accepting racist rhetoric en masse and the Civil Rights Act, racism didn't suddenly disappear. It simply got smarter. The Southern Strategy, and how Republicans won the South, was by appealing to White voters by pushing economic policies that 'just so happen' to disproportionately benefit white people and disproportionately hurt black people.
Censorship doesn't work. It only pushes the problem out of sight, allowing for the public to be put at ease while other, generally harmful, political positions are learning how to sneak their rhetoric under the radar.
Instead, we must take an active role in sifting through policies and politicians in order to find whether or not they're trying to sneak possibly racist rhetoric under the radar. And if we find it, we must publicly tear down their arguments and expose the rhetoric for what it is. If we publicly show exactly how the alt-right and other harmful groups sneak their rhetoric into what could be seen as common policy, we can learn better how to protect ourselves and our communities from that kind of dangerous position.
An active role in the combatting of violent extremism is vital to ensure things like the rise of the Nazi party, the KKK, and the Capitol Insurrection don't happen again.
Edit: I should specify I'm very willing to change my opinion on this. I simply don't see a better way to stop violent extremism without giving the government large amounts of power.
|
“I’m talking about bigotry and genuinely damaging political views...” this shines light on one of the issues here. Speech isn’t pure idea or symbol, there’s also an element of action to it. If these view are tangibly damaging and harmful to others, there’s an active, rights-infringing element to speech which prevents things like hate speech from being clearly categorized as idea/thought separable from action. That said, I think market forces do a better job at regulating speech than legislation does, and when I look at all the hooplah about censorship and thought policing I pretty much just see market forces at work when Twitter, Facebook, CNN, Fox, Google, Nike, etc. are the entities leading the speech regulation charge. And these companies don’t care about morality or principles, it’s just more profitable to cater to the socially liberal market than the socially conservative market now, for better and worse. That’s how markets work.
|
The crucial part that you are missing is that they are not children being placed in the custody of a separate authority to work towards a specific purpose, I.e. learning.
They are free citizens engaging in their government protected rights. hate speech is free speech plain and simple. It is a trusism at this point but it needs to be stated, common pleasant speech wouldnt need to be protected. What one person considers hate speech another might not. You pass a law today to outlaw and censor nazi hatespeech, tomorrow the reigns of power are in the hands of an christian/islamic majority who believe as much as you do, that pro lgbtq speech is hate speech that should be banned.
The principals from which your argument stands is one that will inevitably bite you back and make life worse for everyone.
|
muvrf4
|
CMV: We shouldn't censor hate speech.
|
There are certain things that aren't protected under freedom of speech, those being things like incitement of violence, immediate threats, yelling fire in a crowded theater, etc. I'm not talking about those things. Slander and stuff like that aren't ok, and to my knowledge, aren't legal. It should stay that way.
I'm talking about bigotry and genuinely damaging political views, like Nazism and white supremacy. I don't these things should be censored. I think that censorship of some undeniably bad political positions would force a similar thing to what prohibition or the war on drugs caused: pushing the problem into the underground and giving the public a perspective of "out of sight, out of mind". Censorship of political opinions doesn't do much to silence political positions, it just forces them to get clever with their rhetoric.
This happened in Germany in the interwar period. The SPD, the party in charge of Germany at the time, banned the Nazi party after they had tried to stage an uprising that we now know as the Beer Hall Putsch. We also know that the SPD's attempts to silence the Nazis ultimately failed. Nazi influence grew in the underground, until Hitler eventually convinced Bavaria to repeal the ban on the Nazi party. Banning the party didn't suddenly make the people and their influence vanish, it just forced the Nazi's to get clever, and, instead of using blatant means, to utilize legal processes to win.
This also happened after the Civil War, when the Union withdrew from the South. After Union withdrawal, Southern anti-black sentiment was still powerful and took the form of Jim Crow laws. After the social banning and the legal banning of discrimination in the form of Americans no longer accepting racist rhetoric en masse and the Civil Rights Act, racism didn't suddenly disappear. It simply got smarter. The Southern Strategy, and how Republicans won the South, was by appealing to White voters by pushing economic policies that 'just so happen' to disproportionately benefit white people and disproportionately hurt black people.
Censorship doesn't work. It only pushes the problem out of sight, allowing for the public to be put at ease while other, generally harmful, political positions are learning how to sneak their rhetoric under the radar.
Instead, we must take an active role in sifting through policies and politicians in order to find whether or not they're trying to sneak possibly racist rhetoric under the radar. And if we find it, we must publicly tear down their arguments and expose the rhetoric for what it is. If we publicly show exactly how the alt-right and other harmful groups sneak their rhetoric into what could be seen as common policy, we can learn better how to protect ourselves and our communities from that kind of dangerous position.
An active role in the combatting of violent extremism is vital to ensure things like the rise of the Nazi party, the KKK, and the Capitol Insurrection don't happen again.
Edit: I should specify I'm very willing to change my opinion on this. I simply don't see a better way to stop violent extremism without giving the government large amounts of power.
| 1,618,940,153
|
Butterboi_Oooska
|
gv99yb4
|
gv8durb
| 7
| -1
|
CMV: We shouldn't censor hate speech.
There are certain things that aren't protected under freedom of speech, those being things like incitement of violence, immediate threats, yelling fire in a crowded theater, etc. I'm not talking about those things. Slander and stuff like that aren't ok, and to my knowledge, aren't legal. It should stay that way.
I'm talking about bigotry and genuinely damaging political views, like Nazism and white supremacy. I don't these things should be censored. I think that censorship of some undeniably bad political positions would force a similar thing to what prohibition or the war on drugs caused: pushing the problem into the underground and giving the public a perspective of "out of sight, out of mind". Censorship of political opinions doesn't do much to silence political positions, it just forces them to get clever with their rhetoric.
This happened in Germany in the interwar period. The SPD, the party in charge of Germany at the time, banned the Nazi party after they had tried to stage an uprising that we now know as the Beer Hall Putsch. We also know that the SPD's attempts to silence the Nazis ultimately failed. Nazi influence grew in the underground, until Hitler eventually convinced Bavaria to repeal the ban on the Nazi party. Banning the party didn't suddenly make the people and their influence vanish, it just forced the Nazi's to get clever, and, instead of using blatant means, to utilize legal processes to win.
This also happened after the Civil War, when the Union withdrew from the South. After Union withdrawal, Southern anti-black sentiment was still powerful and took the form of Jim Crow laws. After the social banning and the legal banning of discrimination in the form of Americans no longer accepting racist rhetoric en masse and the Civil Rights Act, racism didn't suddenly disappear. It simply got smarter. The Southern Strategy, and how Republicans won the South, was by appealing to White voters by pushing economic policies that 'just so happen' to disproportionately benefit white people and disproportionately hurt black people.
Censorship doesn't work. It only pushes the problem out of sight, allowing for the public to be put at ease while other, generally harmful, political positions are learning how to sneak their rhetoric under the radar.
Instead, we must take an active role in sifting through policies and politicians in order to find whether or not they're trying to sneak possibly racist rhetoric under the radar. And if we find it, we must publicly tear down their arguments and expose the rhetoric for what it is. If we publicly show exactly how the alt-right and other harmful groups sneak their rhetoric into what could be seen as common policy, we can learn better how to protect ourselves and our communities from that kind of dangerous position.
An active role in the combatting of violent extremism is vital to ensure things like the rise of the Nazi party, the KKK, and the Capitol Insurrection don't happen again.
Edit: I should specify I'm very willing to change my opinion on this. I simply don't see a better way to stop violent extremism without giving the government large amounts of power.
|
Hate speech *is* incitement of violence. Flying a Nazi flag is *directly equivalent* to calling for the murder of Jewish people. KKK calls for the murder of black people.
Your specific examples are direct calls to action for the murder of people.
|
People aren't rational or principled. Having this speech out in the open spreads it, and if it connects with people on an emotional level there is no rationing them out of it. The "sunlight is the best disinfectant" reasoning doesn't and has never worked in this regard.
|
muvrf4
|
CMV: We shouldn't censor hate speech.
|
There are certain things that aren't protected under freedom of speech, those being things like incitement of violence, immediate threats, yelling fire in a crowded theater, etc. I'm not talking about those things. Slander and stuff like that aren't ok, and to my knowledge, aren't legal. It should stay that way.
I'm talking about bigotry and genuinely damaging political views, like Nazism and white supremacy. I don't these things should be censored. I think that censorship of some undeniably bad political positions would force a similar thing to what prohibition or the war on drugs caused: pushing the problem into the underground and giving the public a perspective of "out of sight, out of mind". Censorship of political opinions doesn't do much to silence political positions, it just forces them to get clever with their rhetoric.
This happened in Germany in the interwar period. The SPD, the party in charge of Germany at the time, banned the Nazi party after they had tried to stage an uprising that we now know as the Beer Hall Putsch. We also know that the SPD's attempts to silence the Nazis ultimately failed. Nazi influence grew in the underground, until Hitler eventually convinced Bavaria to repeal the ban on the Nazi party. Banning the party didn't suddenly make the people and their influence vanish, it just forced the Nazi's to get clever, and, instead of using blatant means, to utilize legal processes to win.
This also happened after the Civil War, when the Union withdrew from the South. After Union withdrawal, Southern anti-black sentiment was still powerful and took the form of Jim Crow laws. After the social banning and the legal banning of discrimination in the form of Americans no longer accepting racist rhetoric en masse and the Civil Rights Act, racism didn't suddenly disappear. It simply got smarter. The Southern Strategy, and how Republicans won the South, was by appealing to White voters by pushing economic policies that 'just so happen' to disproportionately benefit white people and disproportionately hurt black people.
Censorship doesn't work. It only pushes the problem out of sight, allowing for the public to be put at ease while other, generally harmful, political positions are learning how to sneak their rhetoric under the radar.
Instead, we must take an active role in sifting through policies and politicians in order to find whether or not they're trying to sneak possibly racist rhetoric under the radar. And if we find it, we must publicly tear down their arguments and expose the rhetoric for what it is. If we publicly show exactly how the alt-right and other harmful groups sneak their rhetoric into what could be seen as common policy, we can learn better how to protect ourselves and our communities from that kind of dangerous position.
An active role in the combatting of violent extremism is vital to ensure things like the rise of the Nazi party, the KKK, and the Capitol Insurrection don't happen again.
Edit: I should specify I'm very willing to change my opinion on this. I simply don't see a better way to stop violent extremism without giving the government large amounts of power.
| 1,618,940,153
|
Butterboi_Oooska
|
gva2i6q
|
gv9emso
| 1
| 0
|
CMV: Article 13 passing in the EU isn't a bad thing.
Yes, it may affect the ability of people to post stuff online, such as memes, that they do not have the rights to use. However, coming from the standpoint of a photographer and graphic designer, I can't say that I would want a photo I took to get constantly shared on the internet without any credit coming to me. Everyone would know my work, but I would not benefit from it at all. Copyright should be respected, and it will help photographers/artists. I can't really think of a good reason, from a legal standpoint, to oppose Article 13. It may be annoying, but I think it will help the people whose photos get shared constantly without them giving consent or receiving compensation. That is just my take, but I don't have strong opinions either way yet. I'll be interested to see what the opposite perspective is.
|
The biggest problem with it is that there are no fair use exemptions in the law. none at all. It does not matter if your work is trans-formative, it does not matter if you are doing a news report,
|
In my understanding, 'fair use' means whatever rich corporations want it to mean.
|
9fcmgj
|
CMV: Article 13 passing in the EU isn't a bad thing.
|
Yes, it may affect the ability of people to post stuff online, such as memes, that they do not have the rights to use. However, coming from the standpoint of a photographer and graphic designer, I can't say that I would want a photo I took to get constantly shared on the internet without any credit coming to me. Everyone would know my work, but I would not benefit from it at all. Copyright should be respected, and it will help photographers/artists. I can't really think of a good reason, from a legal standpoint, to oppose Article 13. It may be annoying, but I think it will help the people whose photos get shared constantly without them giving consent or receiving compensation. That is just my take, but I don't have strong opinions either way yet. I'll be interested to see what the opposite perspective is.
| 1,536,792,969
|
ekill13
|
e5vn1wt
|
e5vjr7u
| 7
| 5
|
CMV: I should secretly record (audio, video, or both) all of my sexual encounters to provide evidence in the off chance I'm falsely accused of rape
In today's society (I can only speak for the US since that's where I live) men have little to no defense to a rape accusation if they truly are innocent. Rape is the only crime I can think of where if it does go to court, the man is usually presumed to be guilty until proven innocent even though the legal system should in theory work the opposite way.
Let's say I hookup with a girl consensually but after the fact the girl regrets it. Or I have sex consensually but the girl later threatens to publicly accuse me of rape in order to either get back at me for something unrelated or to blackmail me into doing or giving her something else. Even though falsely accusing someone of rape is technically illegal, the girl would know that the chance of actually getting in trouble for it is pretty slim since proving malicious intent is incredibly difficult.
In this case, what defense does the guy have? It'll likely be just his word against hers and most of society will lean towards believing the girl.
In order to provide some form of defense in these cases, I believe I should secretly record all of my sexual encounters (both random hookups or sex with a girlfriend and everything in between) without the girl knowing I'm doing so. This way I can use this recording as evidence of my innocence in a court of law should it ever escalate to that level.
Another advantage of this recording would be to prevent a public false rape accusation in the first place. If a girl threatens to publicly accuse you of rape, you can tell her about this recording (after making all appropriate backup copies) to dissuade her from going public. **This is advantageous because even if you are able to prove your innocence in court through other means, simply being accused of rape can be disastrous to your life.** People you know might think you did rape the girl, you could lose your job, and if anyone in the future ever searches for you on Google you'll forever be associated with a rape charge even when you weren't found guilty.
The last advantage I can think of is that you can use this recording to prove cases where the girl rapes the man. Even though it's false, many people tend to be believe that men cannot be raped. So if this does ever go to court, the man has a small chance of actually winning. With the recording, his chances go up because the recording will the judge/jury hear/see exactly what happened rather than rely on each other's words and pre-existing biases.
-----------------
Common rebuttals I'm anticipating:
**1) Recording another person without their knowledge is illegal and/or immoral**
I live in a one-party consent state (as with most other US States) so doing so is legal here. Even if it was illegal, I'd much rather be found guilty of that crime than rape. Also even though this evidence would be inadmissible in court, I could use it to potentially deter the girl or prosecutor from publicly accusing me in the first place.
As far as morality or ethics goes, I personally don't consider this to be immoral. Even if I did, I'd much rather act immorally and retain my freedom then be moral and potentially spend a significant portion of my life in prison as an innocent man.
**2) You don't have to worry about being falsely accused of rape since statistically there's an extremely low chance of this occurring. You're much better off worrying about other things**
While this is true, you never know if you're that statistically outlier or not. Unless there is a 100% guarantee (not 99% or 99.99%) that this will never occur to me, I believe it's better to be safe than sorry if I'm going be involved in sexual activity. Also recording a sexual encounter secretly is extremely easy to do, just turn on a hidden camera or tape recorder in your bedroom if you believe there's any chance a girl (or anyone for that fact) might be coming over. Takes not even 20 seconds. If you're going over to her place, then turning on your phone's audio recorder is sufficient and also takes only a few seconds.
**3) Don't have sex with anyone you don't fully trust**
Sometimes people you trust can break that trust. What if I've been having sex with my girlfriend, who I trust, and then one day I decide to break up with her. There's a small chance she can falsely accuse me of rape to get back at me. If it's a new girl, then you might not fully know if she's crazy or not until either it's too late or you decide to wait a long time for sex. What if I wanted to have consensual sex with random girl I met at a bar? Under this logic, one night stands aren't possible if I also wanted to protect myself legally.
**4) If the girl finds out you've been recording her, she's not going to be too happy**
If she finds out, there's nothing she can do except leave me (unless you live in a two-party consent state). I'd much rather risk losing a girl than risk having no defense and potentially spending 5, 10, 15+ years in prison. As I mentioned above, even though the risk of spending time in prison innocently is incredibly small, if you do happen to be that one unlucky guy then the consequences are gargantuan. Girls will always come and go, but you only get 1 life (which I don't intend spending it in prison).
**5) In cases of false rape accusations, there are other ways to gather evidence**
The only ways I can think of is either baiting the girl into saying she'll falsely accuse me of rape on audio/video or getting some form of documented confirmation after sex that the sex was entirely consensual (whether it be a text or verbally on audio/video). The problem with these 2 ways is there is some level on control on the girl's side of whether you obtain that evidence or not. Secretly recording a sexual encounter gives the man 100% control over the collection of the evidence.
|
>If you're trying to prove that you didn't have sex with someone without their consent, revealing that you have taped or recorded sex with them without their consent seems like a terrible idea.
If there is reason to believe the tape would not help my defense, why would I reveal it? That just sounds like a bad idea from a self-defense point-of-view. Even if I did reveal it, it's not like I'll get into legal trouble for it (assuming you live in a one-party consent state, which is the majority of America)
>sounds like blackmail, which is also illegal.
I would much rather risk adding in a blackmailing charge to the rape charge in exchange for potentially not having to deal with the rape charge in the first place. Even better, replacing the rape charge with a blackmailing charge will do a lot less damage to your life than a rape charge (for ex: not being put on the sex offender list). If you're already being charged with rape, adding in an extra charge isn't as big of a deal because your life is already more or less completely ruined.
|
how would it be blackmail?
|
6xq9an
|
CMV: I should secretly record (audio, video, or both) all of my sexual encounters to provide evidence in the off chance I'm falsely accused of rape
|
In today's society (I can only speak for the US since that's where I live) men have little to no defense to a rape accusation if they truly are innocent. Rape is the only crime I can think of where if it does go to court, the man is usually presumed to be guilty until proven innocent even though the legal system should in theory work the opposite way.
Let's say I hookup with a girl consensually but after the fact the girl regrets it. Or I have sex consensually but the girl later threatens to publicly accuse me of rape in order to either get back at me for something unrelated or to blackmail me into doing or giving her something else. Even though falsely accusing someone of rape is technically illegal, the girl would know that the chance of actually getting in trouble for it is pretty slim since proving malicious intent is incredibly difficult.
In this case, what defense does the guy have? It'll likely be just his word against hers and most of society will lean towards believing the girl.
In order to provide some form of defense in these cases, I believe I should secretly record all of my sexual encounters (both random hookups or sex with a girlfriend and everything in between) without the girl knowing I'm doing so. This way I can use this recording as evidence of my innocence in a court of law should it ever escalate to that level.
Another advantage of this recording would be to prevent a public false rape accusation in the first place. If a girl threatens to publicly accuse you of rape, you can tell her about this recording (after making all appropriate backup copies) to dissuade her from going public. **This is advantageous because even if you are able to prove your innocence in court through other means, simply being accused of rape can be disastrous to your life.** People you know might think you did rape the girl, you could lose your job, and if anyone in the future ever searches for you on Google you'll forever be associated with a rape charge even when you weren't found guilty.
The last advantage I can think of is that you can use this recording to prove cases where the girl rapes the man. Even though it's false, many people tend to be believe that men cannot be raped. So if this does ever go to court, the man has a small chance of actually winning. With the recording, his chances go up because the recording will the judge/jury hear/see exactly what happened rather than rely on each other's words and pre-existing biases.
-----------------
Common rebuttals I'm anticipating:
**1) Recording another person without their knowledge is illegal and/or immoral**
I live in a one-party consent state (as with most other US States) so doing so is legal here. Even if it was illegal, I'd much rather be found guilty of that crime than rape. Also even though this evidence would be inadmissible in court, I could use it to potentially deter the girl or prosecutor from publicly accusing me in the first place.
As far as morality or ethics goes, I personally don't consider this to be immoral. Even if I did, I'd much rather act immorally and retain my freedom then be moral and potentially spend a significant portion of my life in prison as an innocent man.
**2) You don't have to worry about being falsely accused of rape since statistically there's an extremely low chance of this occurring. You're much better off worrying about other things**
While this is true, you never know if you're that statistically outlier or not. Unless there is a 100% guarantee (not 99% or 99.99%) that this will never occur to me, I believe it's better to be safe than sorry if I'm going be involved in sexual activity. Also recording a sexual encounter secretly is extremely easy to do, just turn on a hidden camera or tape recorder in your bedroom if you believe there's any chance a girl (or anyone for that fact) might be coming over. Takes not even 20 seconds. If you're going over to her place, then turning on your phone's audio recorder is sufficient and also takes only a few seconds.
**3) Don't have sex with anyone you don't fully trust**
Sometimes people you trust can break that trust. What if I've been having sex with my girlfriend, who I trust, and then one day I decide to break up with her. There's a small chance she can falsely accuse me of rape to get back at me. If it's a new girl, then you might not fully know if she's crazy or not until either it's too late or you decide to wait a long time for sex. What if I wanted to have consensual sex with random girl I met at a bar? Under this logic, one night stands aren't possible if I also wanted to protect myself legally.
**4) If the girl finds out you've been recording her, she's not going to be too happy**
If she finds out, there's nothing she can do except leave me (unless you live in a two-party consent state). I'd much rather risk losing a girl than risk having no defense and potentially spending 5, 10, 15+ years in prison. As I mentioned above, even though the risk of spending time in prison innocently is incredibly small, if you do happen to be that one unlucky guy then the consequences are gargantuan. Girls will always come and go, but you only get 1 life (which I don't intend spending it in prison).
**5) In cases of false rape accusations, there are other ways to gather evidence**
The only ways I can think of is either baiting the girl into saying she'll falsely accuse me of rape on audio/video or getting some form of documented confirmation after sex that the sex was entirely consensual (whether it be a text or verbally on audio/video). The problem with these 2 ways is there is some level on control on the girl's side of whether you obtain that evidence or not. Secretly recording a sexual encounter gives the man 100% control over the collection of the evidence.
| 1,504,400,813
|
thowaay
|
dmhqgpv
|
dmhpt3c
| 0
| -1
|
CMV: Gay Pride Hurts LGBT People More Than It Helps Them
As a gay teen, I believe that pride and other such events hurt LGBT people more than it helps them.
What I mean by this is that the whole point of pride is to make a big deal about being gay or whatever you call yourself, to shout it loud and be proud. Except that's not what I, or most of my other gay friends actually want. We just want to be accepted into society as regular, everyday people. These events making a big deal about sexuality and acting like it's something to be proud of actively try to place us on a different level to straight people, which is the last thing I want
TLDR; Me and most of the other gay people I talk to just want to be treated like everyone else, and gay pride actively goes against that
CMV
|
I think you're conflating what you want with what lgbt people want. If you don't want to stick out then you don't need to attend. For others, the very affirming and unapologetic nature if pride lets them express sexuality in a way that would otherwise be shamed.
|
> make a big deal about being gay or whatever you call yourself, to shout it loud and be proud
Do similar parades for other groups hurt their overall groups as well or is this limited to LBGT?
For example does the NYC St. Patrick's Day parade hurt the larger Irish community?
|
6qiwi4
|
CMV: Gay Pride Hurts LGBT People More Than It Helps Them
|
As a gay teen, I believe that pride and other such events hurt LGBT people more than it helps them.
What I mean by this is that the whole point of pride is to make a big deal about being gay or whatever you call yourself, to shout it loud and be proud. Except that's not what I, or most of my other gay friends actually want. We just want to be accepted into society as regular, everyday people. These events making a big deal about sexuality and acting like it's something to be proud of actively try to place us on a different level to straight people, which is the last thing I want
TLDR; Me and most of the other gay people I talk to just want to be treated like everyone else, and gay pride actively goes against that
CMV
| 1,501,438,763
|
Just_an_Elf
|
dkxm5hl
|
dkxlof3
| 10
| 6
|
CMV: We shouldn't censor hate speech.
There are certain things that aren't protected under freedom of speech, those being things like incitement of violence, immediate threats, yelling fire in a crowded theater, etc. I'm not talking about those things. Slander and stuff like that aren't ok, and to my knowledge, aren't legal. It should stay that way.
I'm talking about bigotry and genuinely damaging political views, like Nazism and white supremacy. I don't these things should be censored. I think that censorship of some undeniably bad political positions would force a similar thing to what prohibition or the war on drugs caused: pushing the problem into the underground and giving the public a perspective of "out of sight, out of mind". Censorship of political opinions doesn't do much to silence political positions, it just forces them to get clever with their rhetoric.
This happened in Germany in the interwar period. The SPD, the party in charge of Germany at the time, banned the Nazi party after they had tried to stage an uprising that we now know as the Beer Hall Putsch. We also know that the SPD's attempts to silence the Nazis ultimately failed. Nazi influence grew in the underground, until Hitler eventually convinced Bavaria to repeal the ban on the Nazi party. Banning the party didn't suddenly make the people and their influence vanish, it just forced the Nazi's to get clever, and, instead of using blatant means, to utilize legal processes to win.
This also happened after the Civil War, when the Union withdrew from the South. After Union withdrawal, Southern anti-black sentiment was still powerful and took the form of Jim Crow laws. After the social banning and the legal banning of discrimination in the form of Americans no longer accepting racist rhetoric en masse and the Civil Rights Act, racism didn't suddenly disappear. It simply got smarter. The Southern Strategy, and how Republicans won the South, was by appealing to White voters by pushing economic policies that 'just so happen' to disproportionately benefit white people and disproportionately hurt black people.
Censorship doesn't work. It only pushes the problem out of sight, allowing for the public to be put at ease while other, generally harmful, political positions are learning how to sneak their rhetoric under the radar.
Instead, we must take an active role in sifting through policies and politicians in order to find whether or not they're trying to sneak possibly racist rhetoric under the radar. And if we find it, we must publicly tear down their arguments and expose the rhetoric for what it is. If we publicly show exactly how the alt-right and other harmful groups sneak their rhetoric into what could be seen as common policy, we can learn better how to protect ourselves and our communities from that kind of dangerous position.
An active role in the combatting of violent extremism is vital to ensure things like the rise of the Nazi party, the KKK, and the Capitol Insurrection don't happen again.
Edit: I should specify I'm very willing to change my opinion on this. I simply don't see a better way to stop violent extremism without giving the government large amounts of power.
|
Censorship plays two advantages:
1. If I’m a minority, I have a life, I don’t wanna hear racist shiz, it would just ruin my day and be annoying, I don’t wanna have to deal with that
2. It stops the virus from spreading, the people will still talk about their bad views amongst their peers who already share the view, but by censoring things, new people will not find the views, people don’t go around actively looking for views to pick up, so if they don’t see white supremacy they won’t follow it at it doesn’t exist to them
|
There's a line between allowing the government to punish these people and giving them a respectful platform.
If some Nazi comes along and says "I would like to discuss my views!" then the appropriate response is "Fuck off, you piece of shit!" No one should listen to them or show them any respect whatsoever. They should be shamed and shunned to the greatest extent possible. No private business or organization should willingly associate with them.
Deplatforming is fine. I draw the line at initiating violence or government punishment.
Edit: Downvote me if you please, but what's the problem with what I've said?
|
muvrf4
|
CMV: We shouldn't censor hate speech.
|
There are certain things that aren't protected under freedom of speech, those being things like incitement of violence, immediate threats, yelling fire in a crowded theater, etc. I'm not talking about those things. Slander and stuff like that aren't ok, and to my knowledge, aren't legal. It should stay that way.
I'm talking about bigotry and genuinely damaging political views, like Nazism and white supremacy. I don't these things should be censored. I think that censorship of some undeniably bad political positions would force a similar thing to what prohibition or the war on drugs caused: pushing the problem into the underground and giving the public a perspective of "out of sight, out of mind". Censorship of political opinions doesn't do much to silence political positions, it just forces them to get clever with their rhetoric.
This happened in Germany in the interwar period. The SPD, the party in charge of Germany at the time, banned the Nazi party after they had tried to stage an uprising that we now know as the Beer Hall Putsch. We also know that the SPD's attempts to silence the Nazis ultimately failed. Nazi influence grew in the underground, until Hitler eventually convinced Bavaria to repeal the ban on the Nazi party. Banning the party didn't suddenly make the people and their influence vanish, it just forced the Nazi's to get clever, and, instead of using blatant means, to utilize legal processes to win.
This also happened after the Civil War, when the Union withdrew from the South. After Union withdrawal, Southern anti-black sentiment was still powerful and took the form of Jim Crow laws. After the social banning and the legal banning of discrimination in the form of Americans no longer accepting racist rhetoric en masse and the Civil Rights Act, racism didn't suddenly disappear. It simply got smarter. The Southern Strategy, and how Republicans won the South, was by appealing to White voters by pushing economic policies that 'just so happen' to disproportionately benefit white people and disproportionately hurt black people.
Censorship doesn't work. It only pushes the problem out of sight, allowing for the public to be put at ease while other, generally harmful, political positions are learning how to sneak their rhetoric under the radar.
Instead, we must take an active role in sifting through policies and politicians in order to find whether or not they're trying to sneak possibly racist rhetoric under the radar. And if we find it, we must publicly tear down their arguments and expose the rhetoric for what it is. If we publicly show exactly how the alt-right and other harmful groups sneak their rhetoric into what could be seen as common policy, we can learn better how to protect ourselves and our communities from that kind of dangerous position.
An active role in the combatting of violent extremism is vital to ensure things like the rise of the Nazi party, the KKK, and the Capitol Insurrection don't happen again.
Edit: I should specify I'm very willing to change my opinion on this. I simply don't see a better way to stop violent extremism without giving the government large amounts of power.
| 1,618,940,153
|
Butterboi_Oooska
|
gv8ty2l
|
gv8euba
| 1
| 0
|
CMV: Between a Melee class and a Ranged class, the Mage is realistically the best class.
Good day! I hope to stir up some good discussion with this view of mine. My view is this:
**Of the three main types of RPG classes: (Ranged, Melee, and Mage), Mage is realistically the best and most over-powered class.**
I have been playing RPGs for as long as I can remember, and I've DM'ed a few DnD campaigns in the past, and whenever I put these three *main* classes (I say main because, to me, all sub-classes are derived from them) in a realistic context, the mage always comes out to me as the most viable. If it helps, my image of mages has been mostly influenced by my experience with TES.
To start my explanation, I will first begin in explaining the negatives of being a mage, and then move on to the positives:
**Negatives**
*Magic and the intelligence to use it is what makes the mage strong*, not his strength nor agility which are (typically) reserved for the other two classes. Because of this, without magic, mana, or spells, the mage is just an intelligent dude with a stick and marginal martial skill. Useful for solving puzzles but not as much for surviving battles. If, in any way, a mage's magic is silenced or stripped away from him, he easily becomes the least useful class compared to the other two.
Furthermore, mages have a lot of reliance to objects, trinkets and enchantments, and this makes their power even more difficult to maximize. Great magic powers are hidden in artifacts or godly objects like in tomes or jewelry, and unlike the warrior and the ranger who can train their skills to perfection and be strong by virtue of their natural skill, the capacity of a mage is heavily limited to what he has material access to. Since the power of the mage is mostly external and not as accessible compared to warriors and rangers, he needs to search for his sources of power, be it in study or in relics, to achieve his greatest potential.
Also, training as a mage is a lot more complicated compared to the other classes. There are way too many schools/areas of magic to master and a mage would usually devote his life to just one. It takes a lot of time to master just one school or area, compared to the other classes, which are more narrow yet more compact in the mastery of their skills. Perhaps this is why the most powerful mages are the oldest and most ancient ones, while the most powerful rangers and warriors are usually depicted as being in their "prime".
You might say that mages are usually anti-social and comprise a great deal of villainous powers. For the former, I say that a class does not automatically determine the personality of a character. There are anti-social rangers and warriors just as there mages. For the latter, that is merely testament to the kind of power a mage has. The fact that mages are go-to antagonists means that they have the influence and power to twist macro-elements of a world, like politics, course of nature, and balance of order and chaos in order to cause conflict. Why? Because magic.
**Positives**
That said, now for the main supporting arguments to my view:
*The primary power of the mage is his ability to bend natural laws through magic.*
The other classes are focused on mastering them, like in the fast reloading of a bow or the strong cleave of an axe. Those follow natural laws, only that these classes can do them more efficiently and to a greater effect. Mages, however, *bend them to their will* using magic. Because of this, mages can easily compensate for most of their flaws. Their dependency to magic isn't a problem if they somehow magic an unlimited source of mana or an ultra mana-regenerative enchantment. Their weakness to silence is negligible if they have enchantments that protect them from it. Mages have the potential to be extremely adaptive by right of their magic.
You might say: "Well, that's a cop-out since you're basically arguing that mages are the most powerful class since they can have unlimited source of power and can prevent nullifying forces from taking this power away from them. That's obvious." To counter this, I argue that mages can make more of their unlimited source of power compared to if rangers and warriors had access to a similar source of power with respect to their class:
Mages can master all sorts of powers, like the elements, conjuration, necromancy, and divine influence. Mages are closer to primordial gods than rangers and warriors are solely because of how godly their powers could be. They can raise the dead, conjure objects from nothing, spark fire from their fingertips, throw a gust of wind, contain huge objects in tiny spaces, and many more. While rangers and warriors can cut, pierce, and test the elements, mages can do so much more with *just* the elements (earth, wind, fire, water). They can teleport, turn invisible, transmute materials, charm, enchant objects, enhance their own physical abilities through magic, and understand a great deal of worldly and arcane things through their study.
Moreover, a large fraction of the power of warriors and rangers rely on enchantments which *come from mages*. A warrior would take a flaming sword enchanted by a mage over a normal one. A ranger would take a hood that improves his/her accuracy woven by a mage over an ordinary hood. Even these two classes need magic to gain a higher level of power, and mages are masters of magic.
Also, mages are the most survivable class. Mages can conjure food, water, and shelter. They don't need to construct bridges over rivers simply because they can make bridges out of thin air. They can also heal others and themselves. Mages bring a lot of utility and thus why a lot of sub-types of support classes are more related to mage-types.
I am therefore thoroughly convinced that the strongest mage is more powerful than the strongest warrior or ranger simply because the strongest mages are literally gods. Their power is meant to be *over-powered*. They bend the rules. They have better chances of changing the world physically and politically through their magical power, and thus, the mage is the most powerful class.
This is not to say that the other classes are useless. In fact, all classes complement each other. My argument is that, in the bigger picture, the mage has the most power and I am sure that this view of mine is open to change. I have presented much of the arguments given to me in the past that oppose my view, but my view still stands because of how *easily the mage can compensate for them*. To change it, arguments to the contrary would be appreciated.
Thank you.
|
>Of the three main types of RPG classes: (Ranged, Melee, and Mage), Mage is realistically the best and most over-powered class.
Depends on what your playing. In Dnd for example (5th edition) the warrior takes the cake, as he has the best parameters, resistances, and flexibility to take on almost anyone. Then again, that could take with additions, and updates.
In games, classes are usually balanced. Since warrior is the most easier to implement, he usually remains the baseline around which you optimize other classes. And that means, usually the most optimal class to play.
Now, since your talking about dnd, let's stick with Dnd, and more closely the 5th edition.
Now, the usually classes warrior - rogue - cleric - mage. Then hybrids (paladin = warrior + cleric, druid = mage + cleric, ranger = warrior + rogue, monk = 1/3 warrior + 1/3 cleric + 1/3 rogue, etc...
Tend to specialize in different aspects of gameplay. Warriors are the tanks, let's take on the world class. They have huge health pool, can endure nuking, and still deal good damage. Rogues are the rebels, they aren't good in direct combat, but are excellent and reliable dps, and have reliable defensive abilities (stealth, dodge, etc...). Clerics are the healers. Great in combat and great with buffs. Smaller health pool, worse defensive abilities, but huge buffs. Now mages, they are the obstacle removers.
They can usually SOLVE an obstacle that would take hours, or caused huge problems with a flick of a wrist. There is a cliff, let's use fly. There is a locked door, let's use knock. A guard won't let us pass, let's charm him. We have to sneak and kill someone, let's cast stealth.
In combat, they are they are usually the nukers. They have the highest utility and combat potential. Buuut only for single combat and/or encounter. Then their value both in utility and combat decreases exponentially. On top of that, playing mage is expensive and management heavy. Players have to keep focused on managing spells. In morning they have to spend substantial amount of time to remember spells. If ambush happens, tough luck.
They don't have passive resistances. Meaning one peasant with a rusty dagger who gets an ambush on you, and grapples you down, can even kill you (happened to me, ugh). Or one blow from warrior of higher level can decapitate you. Meaning mage players usually tend to die first.
>I am therefore thoroughly convinced that the strongest mage is more powerful than the strongest warrior or ranger simply because the strongest mages are literally gods. Their power is meant to be over-powered. They bend the rules. They have better chances of changing the world physically and politically through their magical power, and thus, the mage is the most powerful class.
Now let's think about this. Mage is one Shot God. They can burst most enemies. However a warrior of the same level can resist and withstand those first moments, quite easily in fact. After that it's a battle of attrition. Mage, has no chance in a battle of attrition.
So since Mage's power spike comes from within. Warriors power spike comes from his resistances and equipment he is wearing. So in this hypothetical, say both players play their classes optimally. That means while mages have really good combat potential based solely on abilities a warrior will have magical items and healing potions. And overall good mix of offensive and defensive items, both magical and not. Warriors were designed to be the best class in battle of attrition. One good hit from a warrior, and mage is dead. While mage must nuke him down to even have a chance.
It's basically whether a warrior can survive the first one or two rounds.
|
> Moreover, a large fraction of the power of warriors and rangers rely on enchantments which come from mages.
This does not make mages more powerful. It just makes warriors and rangers have the same power as mages.
> Also, mages are the most survivable class.
Lack of food, water and air are pretty rare ways to die. Risk of death is more commonly from losing hit points, which mages have the least amount and so least able to survive.
> Their power is meant to be over-powered.
But the balance is that they are weak via lack of physical ability.
|
870i2j
|
CMV: Between a Melee class and a Ranged class, the Mage is realistically the best class.
|
Good day! I hope to stir up some good discussion with this view of mine. My view is this:
**Of the three main types of RPG classes: (Ranged, Melee, and Mage), Mage is realistically the best and most over-powered class.**
I have been playing RPGs for as long as I can remember, and I've DM'ed a few DnD campaigns in the past, and whenever I put these three *main* classes (I say main because, to me, all sub-classes are derived from them) in a realistic context, the mage always comes out to me as the most viable. If it helps, my image of mages has been mostly influenced by my experience with TES.
To start my explanation, I will first begin in explaining the negatives of being a mage, and then move on to the positives:
**Negatives**
*Magic and the intelligence to use it is what makes the mage strong*, not his strength nor agility which are (typically) reserved for the other two classes. Because of this, without magic, mana, or spells, the mage is just an intelligent dude with a stick and marginal martial skill. Useful for solving puzzles but not as much for surviving battles. If, in any way, a mage's magic is silenced or stripped away from him, he easily becomes the least useful class compared to the other two.
Furthermore, mages have a lot of reliance to objects, trinkets and enchantments, and this makes their power even more difficult to maximize. Great magic powers are hidden in artifacts or godly objects like in tomes or jewelry, and unlike the warrior and the ranger who can train their skills to perfection and be strong by virtue of their natural skill, the capacity of a mage is heavily limited to what he has material access to. Since the power of the mage is mostly external and not as accessible compared to warriors and rangers, he needs to search for his sources of power, be it in study or in relics, to achieve his greatest potential.
Also, training as a mage is a lot more complicated compared to the other classes. There are way too many schools/areas of magic to master and a mage would usually devote his life to just one. It takes a lot of time to master just one school or area, compared to the other classes, which are more narrow yet more compact in the mastery of their skills. Perhaps this is why the most powerful mages are the oldest and most ancient ones, while the most powerful rangers and warriors are usually depicted as being in their "prime".
You might say that mages are usually anti-social and comprise a great deal of villainous powers. For the former, I say that a class does not automatically determine the personality of a character. There are anti-social rangers and warriors just as there mages. For the latter, that is merely testament to the kind of power a mage has. The fact that mages are go-to antagonists means that they have the influence and power to twist macro-elements of a world, like politics, course of nature, and balance of order and chaos in order to cause conflict. Why? Because magic.
**Positives**
That said, now for the main supporting arguments to my view:
*The primary power of the mage is his ability to bend natural laws through magic.*
The other classes are focused on mastering them, like in the fast reloading of a bow or the strong cleave of an axe. Those follow natural laws, only that these classes can do them more efficiently and to a greater effect. Mages, however, *bend them to their will* using magic. Because of this, mages can easily compensate for most of their flaws. Their dependency to magic isn't a problem if they somehow magic an unlimited source of mana or an ultra mana-regenerative enchantment. Their weakness to silence is negligible if they have enchantments that protect them from it. Mages have the potential to be extremely adaptive by right of their magic.
You might say: "Well, that's a cop-out since you're basically arguing that mages are the most powerful class since they can have unlimited source of power and can prevent nullifying forces from taking this power away from them. That's obvious." To counter this, I argue that mages can make more of their unlimited source of power compared to if rangers and warriors had access to a similar source of power with respect to their class:
Mages can master all sorts of powers, like the elements, conjuration, necromancy, and divine influence. Mages are closer to primordial gods than rangers and warriors are solely because of how godly their powers could be. They can raise the dead, conjure objects from nothing, spark fire from their fingertips, throw a gust of wind, contain huge objects in tiny spaces, and many more. While rangers and warriors can cut, pierce, and test the elements, mages can do so much more with *just* the elements (earth, wind, fire, water). They can teleport, turn invisible, transmute materials, charm, enchant objects, enhance their own physical abilities through magic, and understand a great deal of worldly and arcane things through their study.
Moreover, a large fraction of the power of warriors and rangers rely on enchantments which *come from mages*. A warrior would take a flaming sword enchanted by a mage over a normal one. A ranger would take a hood that improves his/her accuracy woven by a mage over an ordinary hood. Even these two classes need magic to gain a higher level of power, and mages are masters of magic.
Also, mages are the most survivable class. Mages can conjure food, water, and shelter. They don't need to construct bridges over rivers simply because they can make bridges out of thin air. They can also heal others and themselves. Mages bring a lot of utility and thus why a lot of sub-types of support classes are more related to mage-types.
I am therefore thoroughly convinced that the strongest mage is more powerful than the strongest warrior or ranger simply because the strongest mages are literally gods. Their power is meant to be *over-powered*. They bend the rules. They have better chances of changing the world physically and politically through their magical power, and thus, the mage is the most powerful class.
This is not to say that the other classes are useless. In fact, all classes complement each other. My argument is that, in the bigger picture, the mage has the most power and I am sure that this view of mine is open to change. I have presented much of the arguments given to me in the past that oppose my view, but my view still stands because of how *easily the mage can compensate for them*. To change it, arguments to the contrary would be appreciated.
Thank you.
| 1,521,982,479
|
onesix16
|
dw99kfj
|
dw98zr5
| 2
| 1
|
CMV: Popular religions such as Christianity and Islam, all stem from Cults
I am under the belief that all major religions (Christianity, Hinduism, Islam) all stem from a what we today would consider a cult, and therefore I often find it hypocritical when people who are religious criticize cults for simply being *evil*, *immoral* or *undesirable* and at the same time don’t necessarily think the same of other major religions. For example: A christian who claim that they are not against the existence of Muslims, but also claim that they are against the existence of cults are the people I think to be hypocritical.
So before I explain my position I find it necessary to first lay out some of my definitions regarding the terms *religion* and *cult* and how I differentiate them. For these definitions I am using sources such as *Wikipedia* and *Oxford English Dictionary*.
**Religion**: A religion is a system of faith often revolving around a particular god or a set of gods, or in some cases a spiritual leader.
**Cult**: A cult is often described as a small group of people who practice an *unusual* set of beliefs, either religious or ideological.
Now applying these definitions to the real world and how historically religions have formed, I would like to focus my attention to Christianity and Islam’s origin as those are the ones I am most familiar with.
**Judaism:**
Before moving on to Islam and Christianity, is important to mention Judaism as both Christianity and Islam are “branches” of Judaism. Jews follow the *Torah* or the first testament. In the *Torah* there is a prophecy relating to a Messiah or savior figure. The Jews today hold the belief that the Messiah is yet to arrive, but they will know who it is once that person arrives at earth.
**Christianity:**
Christianity formed through the belief that Jesus Christ was the Messiah that the Jew’s have been waiting for. The only way to know who the Messiah is, is through the actions that the proclaimed Messiah takes and enough people believed that the actions taken by Jesus Christ (mainly of being altruistic) were enough to convince them that he was in fact, the Messiah.
**Islam:**
Islam follows the notion that instead of Jesus Christ being the Messiah, it is instead, Mohammed. Why particularly Mohammed was chosen is for the same reasons Jesus Christ was thought to be the Messiah.
Anyways, under these assumptions, it is clear that Jesus and Mohammed, without any historically proven inhumane capabilities, were only decided to be the Messiah under the grounds that the actions and things they said convinced people of it. Under this premise, it is not inconceivable that the Messiah has yet to come (the jew’s being “correct”) or that the Messiah will never come. Therefore anyone proclaiming that they are the Messiah in the modern world, and also happen to attract a following similar to that of Jesus or Mohammed, could under the same evidence that people used 2000 years ago, be the real Messiah.
Originally, when Jesus Christ started out, his ideas were unorthodox. For example, anyone could become a follower of god. At the time, the only way to become a Jew, was for your mother to be Jewish. Jesus instead believed anyone could accept god into their hearts. He also held the belief that women and men were seen equally before the eyes of god, an idea that was also unpopular at the time. Therefor, when Jesus had gained a following of people, this would follow the definition of a cult, as the idea’s had yet to be clearly established.
Through this reasoning I believe that it is unreasonable for modern society to hold the origins of Christianity and Islam in higher regards than that of a cult. If a person today did the same thing as Jesus Christ 2000 years ago, I am certain that today we would label them as a cult leader, possible even diagnose them with a mental illness. Anyways, I have discussed the topic with Muslims, Christians and Atheists alike, and while religious people often disagree with my notion without providing any arguments that I find compelling, most Atheists seem to agree with this proposition. So I was wondering if I could have some insight and perhaps change my views.
|
I looked at a few other definitions of cult and while I don't disagree with the definition you gave, I don't think the term "unusual" is accurate. Some definitions used words like unusual or strange, but more that I found used the words like extreme, sinister, unorthodox and spurious. I think this accurately represents the negative connotation that accompanies the word cult.
At the time of the conception of said religions, it's arguable whether or not the general public saw the group's in a negative light. The government and religious leaders certainly did, but I don't know enough about the time period to say either way for the average Joe. And that also raises the argument of if a whole government is corrupt and say that a positive movement is a cult, does that actually make it a cult? Nowadays I'd argue that neither Christianity or Islam are viewed in an overall negative light.
But if we are judging whether or not they were cults by the perception of the time they were gaining a following, then you can apply the same logic to movements like civil rights, gay rights, climate change, or any other other progressive movement. They were small groups of people with an unusual and negatively viewed ideology. If we're using the modern perception of the movement, than I'd say that neither religions nor progressive social movements can be defined as originating from a cult.
|
Historical figures tend to be put on a pedestal, the bad things they do being erased from their legend while the good things are taking epic proportions.
It's even more visible with religions that try to get credibility despite being based on illogical magical premises. As such, they think you can't compare a 21th century con artist to a venerated magician that could transform water to wine and give back sight to blind people.
**TL;DR; 1:** Magic is real, my prophet was a real magician, so he is totally different from nowdays gurus / cult leaders who has no God-given magic.
An atheist will see a wacko that lived 2000 years ago and created a cult that worked well, just like some people are still trying nowadays. The religious guy, on the other side, won't see it that way, because their prophet **was** someone special. Either he was **really** talking with God, or he was an incarnation of God himself, or his son, or things like that. As such, he wasn't teaching "unusual" set of beliefs, he was teaching the truth. And even if these beliefs were not majority at that time, they could not be "unusual" as they were truth.
**TL;DR; 2:** Religious people read the Cult word definition with "unusual" meaning "wrong", instead of reading it like "not shared by the majority of people". That's even reinforced by the fact that "Cult" has a pretty bad subtext in current society.
|
e2ewf2
|
CMV: Popular religions such as Christianity and Islam, all stem from Cults
|
I am under the belief that all major religions (Christianity, Hinduism, Islam) all stem from a what we today would consider a cult, and therefore I often find it hypocritical when people who are religious criticize cults for simply being *evil*, *immoral* or *undesirable* and at the same time don’t necessarily think the same of other major religions. For example: A christian who claim that they are not against the existence of Muslims, but also claim that they are against the existence of cults are the people I think to be hypocritical.
So before I explain my position I find it necessary to first lay out some of my definitions regarding the terms *religion* and *cult* and how I differentiate them. For these definitions I am using sources such as *Wikipedia* and *Oxford English Dictionary*.
**Religion**: A religion is a system of faith often revolving around a particular god or a set of gods, or in some cases a spiritual leader.
**Cult**: A cult is often described as a small group of people who practice an *unusual* set of beliefs, either religious or ideological.
Now applying these definitions to the real world and how historically religions have formed, I would like to focus my attention to Christianity and Islam’s origin as those are the ones I am most familiar with.
**Judaism:**
Before moving on to Islam and Christianity, is important to mention Judaism as both Christianity and Islam are “branches” of Judaism. Jews follow the *Torah* or the first testament. In the *Torah* there is a prophecy relating to a Messiah or savior figure. The Jews today hold the belief that the Messiah is yet to arrive, but they will know who it is once that person arrives at earth.
**Christianity:**
Christianity formed through the belief that Jesus Christ was the Messiah that the Jew’s have been waiting for. The only way to know who the Messiah is, is through the actions that the proclaimed Messiah takes and enough people believed that the actions taken by Jesus Christ (mainly of being altruistic) were enough to convince them that he was in fact, the Messiah.
**Islam:**
Islam follows the notion that instead of Jesus Christ being the Messiah, it is instead, Mohammed. Why particularly Mohammed was chosen is for the same reasons Jesus Christ was thought to be the Messiah.
Anyways, under these assumptions, it is clear that Jesus and Mohammed, without any historically proven inhumane capabilities, were only decided to be the Messiah under the grounds that the actions and things they said convinced people of it. Under this premise, it is not inconceivable that the Messiah has yet to come (the jew’s being “correct”) or that the Messiah will never come. Therefore anyone proclaiming that they are the Messiah in the modern world, and also happen to attract a following similar to that of Jesus or Mohammed, could under the same evidence that people used 2000 years ago, be the real Messiah.
Originally, when Jesus Christ started out, his ideas were unorthodox. For example, anyone could become a follower of god. At the time, the only way to become a Jew, was for your mother to be Jewish. Jesus instead believed anyone could accept god into their hearts. He also held the belief that women and men were seen equally before the eyes of god, an idea that was also unpopular at the time. Therefor, when Jesus had gained a following of people, this would follow the definition of a cult, as the idea’s had yet to be clearly established.
Through this reasoning I believe that it is unreasonable for modern society to hold the origins of Christianity and Islam in higher regards than that of a cult. If a person today did the same thing as Jesus Christ 2000 years ago, I am certain that today we would label them as a cult leader, possible even diagnose them with a mental illness. Anyways, I have discussed the topic with Muslims, Christians and Atheists alike, and while religious people often disagree with my notion without providing any arguments that I find compelling, most Atheists seem to agree with this proposition. So I was wondering if I could have some insight and perhaps change my views.
| 1,574,854,741
|
TheRavaen
|
f8vstb1
|
f8v5bs6
| 3
| 2
|
CMV: We shouldn't censor hate speech.
There are certain things that aren't protected under freedom of speech, those being things like incitement of violence, immediate threats, yelling fire in a crowded theater, etc. I'm not talking about those things. Slander and stuff like that aren't ok, and to my knowledge, aren't legal. It should stay that way.
I'm talking about bigotry and genuinely damaging political views, like Nazism and white supremacy. I don't these things should be censored. I think that censorship of some undeniably bad political positions would force a similar thing to what prohibition or the war on drugs caused: pushing the problem into the underground and giving the public a perspective of "out of sight, out of mind". Censorship of political opinions doesn't do much to silence political positions, it just forces them to get clever with their rhetoric.
This happened in Germany in the interwar period. The SPD, the party in charge of Germany at the time, banned the Nazi party after they had tried to stage an uprising that we now know as the Beer Hall Putsch. We also know that the SPD's attempts to silence the Nazis ultimately failed. Nazi influence grew in the underground, until Hitler eventually convinced Bavaria to repeal the ban on the Nazi party. Banning the party didn't suddenly make the people and their influence vanish, it just forced the Nazi's to get clever, and, instead of using blatant means, to utilize legal processes to win.
This also happened after the Civil War, when the Union withdrew from the South. After Union withdrawal, Southern anti-black sentiment was still powerful and took the form of Jim Crow laws. After the social banning and the legal banning of discrimination in the form of Americans no longer accepting racist rhetoric en masse and the Civil Rights Act, racism didn't suddenly disappear. It simply got smarter. The Southern Strategy, and how Republicans won the South, was by appealing to White voters by pushing economic policies that 'just so happen' to disproportionately benefit white people and disproportionately hurt black people.
Censorship doesn't work. It only pushes the problem out of sight, allowing for the public to be put at ease while other, generally harmful, political positions are learning how to sneak their rhetoric under the radar.
Instead, we must take an active role in sifting through policies and politicians in order to find whether or not they're trying to sneak possibly racist rhetoric under the radar. And if we find it, we must publicly tear down their arguments and expose the rhetoric for what it is. If we publicly show exactly how the alt-right and other harmful groups sneak their rhetoric into what could be seen as common policy, we can learn better how to protect ourselves and our communities from that kind of dangerous position.
An active role in the combatting of violent extremism is vital to ensure things like the rise of the Nazi party, the KKK, and the Capitol Insurrection don't happen again.
Edit: I should specify I'm very willing to change my opinion on this. I simply don't see a better way to stop violent extremism without giving the government large amounts of power.
|
>Slander and stuff like that aren't ok, and to my knowledge, aren't legal.
So... prepare to have your world rocked:
Expressed racism *is* slander. It is making untrue statements about a bunch of people, which harms their reputation, based on stereotypes.
The fact that it is slander against lot of people rather than against *one* person actually makes it worse... you do understand why that's worse, right?
|
Actually, I have a question - part of the Nazi strategy to gain and control power was by banning the speech of opposing parties, and preventing them from ever effectively speaking out - similar to what you argue.
Since you want to ban all Nazi-related speech, then shouldn’t I have every right to ban/censor YOU for having a Nazi-related idea?
|
muvrf4
|
CMV: We shouldn't censor hate speech.
|
There are certain things that aren't protected under freedom of speech, those being things like incitement of violence, immediate threats, yelling fire in a crowded theater, etc. I'm not talking about those things. Slander and stuff like that aren't ok, and to my knowledge, aren't legal. It should stay that way.
I'm talking about bigotry and genuinely damaging political views, like Nazism and white supremacy. I don't these things should be censored. I think that censorship of some undeniably bad political positions would force a similar thing to what prohibition or the war on drugs caused: pushing the problem into the underground and giving the public a perspective of "out of sight, out of mind". Censorship of political opinions doesn't do much to silence political positions, it just forces them to get clever with their rhetoric.
This happened in Germany in the interwar period. The SPD, the party in charge of Germany at the time, banned the Nazi party after they had tried to stage an uprising that we now know as the Beer Hall Putsch. We also know that the SPD's attempts to silence the Nazis ultimately failed. Nazi influence grew in the underground, until Hitler eventually convinced Bavaria to repeal the ban on the Nazi party. Banning the party didn't suddenly make the people and their influence vanish, it just forced the Nazi's to get clever, and, instead of using blatant means, to utilize legal processes to win.
This also happened after the Civil War, when the Union withdrew from the South. After Union withdrawal, Southern anti-black sentiment was still powerful and took the form of Jim Crow laws. After the social banning and the legal banning of discrimination in the form of Americans no longer accepting racist rhetoric en masse and the Civil Rights Act, racism didn't suddenly disappear. It simply got smarter. The Southern Strategy, and how Republicans won the South, was by appealing to White voters by pushing economic policies that 'just so happen' to disproportionately benefit white people and disproportionately hurt black people.
Censorship doesn't work. It only pushes the problem out of sight, allowing for the public to be put at ease while other, generally harmful, political positions are learning how to sneak their rhetoric under the radar.
Instead, we must take an active role in sifting through policies and politicians in order to find whether or not they're trying to sneak possibly racist rhetoric under the radar. And if we find it, we must publicly tear down their arguments and expose the rhetoric for what it is. If we publicly show exactly how the alt-right and other harmful groups sneak their rhetoric into what could be seen as common policy, we can learn better how to protect ourselves and our communities from that kind of dangerous position.
An active role in the combatting of violent extremism is vital to ensure things like the rise of the Nazi party, the KKK, and the Capitol Insurrection don't happen again.
Edit: I should specify I'm very willing to change my opinion on this. I simply don't see a better way to stop violent extremism without giving the government large amounts of power.
| 1,618,940,153
|
Butterboi_Oooska
|
gv9wj2i
|
gv98pnc
| 2
| 0
|
CMV: Whether people are born male or female, they should be free to dress and act absolutely however they want. Changing your pronoun to be "in line" with these actions, however, is ultimately harmful to society.
The implication that dressing or acting differently than is typical for your "gender" requires a different pronoun is simply adding more stereotypes to the labels "male" and "female." As a queer woman, I have spent much of my life feeling like I didn't necessarily dress or act the same as the other girls around me. I have many of what are typically considered very masculine characteristics. I never wanted to or allowed myself to feel like my pronoun somehow defined who I had to be or what I had to act like. I figured women can do or be anything. I think it would ultimately be more beneficial to youth growing up to create a society in which your pronoun is not associated with a way to act or even feel. For me, watching those who were born men put on makeup and feminine clothing and say they now "identify as women" is now associating those attributes to the female persona, though they are attributes I do not hold. Am I less of a woman for lacking them? What does that even mean - identifying as a woman? Will people think differently of me because of my pronoun? If so, stop. My "she" doesn't define me and I don't think others' pronouns should define them as we let them do. I really wish that when people called me "she" it really only referred to my sex and didn't put all these other implications on me.
​
I want to be clear I am completely open to people dressing, acting, and thinking outside of what society has defined as normative for you (as evidence by my own life). What I think needs to change, though, is society's associations with our gender pronouns as opposed to people changing their own and thereby reaffirming all of the stereotypes we've associated with them.
Edit: My view has changed! I realized that while I don’t feel it, some people have a very strong sense of gender identity which is why their pronouns are so important to them. Does this strong sense of identity create more of a divide between the genders? How much of it is socialized? Like though there are tons of questions to be asked - asking people to not change their pronouns if they do feel so passionately about it is just not really effective. After all of the discussion, I think more of what I wanted was simply lowered expectations of what it means to be male or female (no matter cis or trans)
Thanks to everyone who gave really articulate arguments without bashing me for my views. I would love to keep discussing the questions I posed in my edit if anyone wants.
|
what does that mean I am not one of them? am i not human? do I not have a brain like them? why am i so different? because of a higher pitched voice and boobs? i'm really asking.
|
Kind of agreeing with OP. If your desired/mentally natural body is what you think makes you not a man are you willing to go the step to surgically change that? If not aren't you simply doing what OP describes and just conforming to gender stereotypes to compensate for being born the wrong sex?
I'll call you whatever you want and I'm not looking to take anyones rights or dignity away, but I do think it's a little hypocritical to both decide you're not what you're born as but then also not be willing to actually change anything (cost prohibiting I understand) biological about yourself to match what you believe to be your real sex or gender.
|
a851eu
|
CMV: Whether people are born male or female, they should be free to dress and act absolutely however they want. Changing your pronoun to be "in line" with these actions, however, is ultimately harmful to society.
|
The implication that dressing or acting differently than is typical for your "gender" requires a different pronoun is simply adding more stereotypes to the labels "male" and "female." As a queer woman, I have spent much of my life feeling like I didn't necessarily dress or act the same as the other girls around me. I have many of what are typically considered very masculine characteristics. I never wanted to or allowed myself to feel like my pronoun somehow defined who I had to be or what I had to act like. I figured women can do or be anything. I think it would ultimately be more beneficial to youth growing up to create a society in which your pronoun is not associated with a way to act or even feel. For me, watching those who were born men put on makeup and feminine clothing and say they now "identify as women" is now associating those attributes to the female persona, though they are attributes I do not hold. Am I less of a woman for lacking them? What does that even mean - identifying as a woman? Will people think differently of me because of my pronoun? If so, stop. My "she" doesn't define me and I don't think others' pronouns should define them as we let them do. I really wish that when people called me "she" it really only referred to my sex and didn't put all these other implications on me.
​
I want to be clear I am completely open to people dressing, acting, and thinking outside of what society has defined as normative for you (as evidence by my own life). What I think needs to change, though, is society's associations with our gender pronouns as opposed to people changing their own and thereby reaffirming all of the stereotypes we've associated with them.
Edit: My view has changed! I realized that while I don’t feel it, some people have a very strong sense of gender identity which is why their pronouns are so important to them. Does this strong sense of identity create more of a divide between the genders? How much of it is socialized? Like though there are tons of questions to be asked - asking people to not change their pronouns if they do feel so passionately about it is just not really effective. After all of the discussion, I think more of what I wanted was simply lowered expectations of what it means to be male or female (no matter cis or trans)
Thanks to everyone who gave really articulate arguments without bashing me for my views. I would love to keep discussing the questions I posed in my edit if anyone wants.
| 1,545,356,269
|
mybadwolf
|
ec841vm
|
ec81692
| 2
| -5
|
CMV: Detroit, MI is a dying city and will eventually be surpassed by Grand Rapids, MI as the largest city in Michigan.
1) The population in Detroit has been steadily falling every year since 1950 when it hit an all-time high of 1,850,000 residents; it now has 673,104 residents according to the 2017 US Census.
2) Large sections of Detroit have undergone severe urban decay, which is extremely expensive to fix-- something a cash-strapped city Detroit does not have. This will obviously just get worse over time as abandoned neighborhoods continue to decay and take up space that could be utilized for other things.
3) Despite mostly falling crime statistics over the past few years, Detroit is still listed as the second most dangerous city in America by the FBI (2018 report), and the single most dangerous city in America by Forbes for several years in a row.
4) All of these above stats are the state of the city during the single longest period of economic growth in recent US history. On the flip side, we know that recessions hit auto industries rather hard since vehicles are so expensive. During the 2008 recession, the Big 3 auto manufacturers all nearly went bankrupt, and Detroit was hemorrhaging people during the same periods in time. A lot on signs point toward the next recession being as bad, or worse than the 2008 recession, so Detroit will be hit even harder this time around. Furthermore, the Trump Administration has shown itself to not be too fond of certain auto manufacturers, so they may not get bailed out this time around-- all at a time that Ford is already hurting due to falling car sales, tariffs, and plant fires.
5) The population of Grand Rapids has been steadily growing since 1850, with only two or three recorded censuses showing a decline. Addituonally, Grand Rapids wasn't nearly as hard-hit by the recession as Detroit was and recovered far quicker, which indicates that may very well happen again during this next recession.
|
While it is true that the population of Detroit has declined in recent years, the population of the greater Metro Detroit area has been relatively stable since the 1970's, and it has even grown in the past 20 years [Source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Metro_Detroit) The current numbers are 673,000 for the City of Detroit, and 4.2 million for the greater metro area.
Grand Rapids on the other hand has maintained a relatively stable population in the city, while the greater metro area has expanded quickly. The city has a current population of 198,000 with the metro area having a population of 1 million.
For Grand Rapids to meet or exceed the population of Detroit, it would have to increase the population by over 400,000 people. For the metro area it would have to add 3 million. Also keep in mind the the are of Detroit is 142 square miles, where Grand Rapids is 45 square miles. To fit the additional 400,000 people in the city it would have to have a population density similar to the outer boroughs of New York.
Then there is the infrastructure differences. Grand Rapids has one major interstate highway; Detroit has three. Grand Rapids has one mid-size airport. Detroit has one of the largest in the country along with several smaller airports throughout the metro area. Detroit has an international port facility; Grand Rapids does not. Detroit has 11 intermodal interchanges, Grand Rapids has 2.
I love Grand Rapids, but the only way that it will ever surpass the population of Detroit is if Detroit is cordoned off and all the people there are forced to move elsewhere.
|
Downtown Detroit has seen some decent development. And is on the upswing.
And Detroit proper isn't a fair way to look at Detroit. The Detroit metropolitan area has a population of 4.3 million.
The city might be decaying but the suburbs are among the richest in the country. Oakland County has over a million people and is in the top 10 for average incomes.
|
b3t23h
|
CMV: Detroit, MI is a dying city and will eventually be surpassed by Grand Rapids, MI as the largest city in Michigan.
|
1) The population in Detroit has been steadily falling every year since 1950 when it hit an all-time high of 1,850,000 residents; it now has 673,104 residents according to the 2017 US Census.
2) Large sections of Detroit have undergone severe urban decay, which is extremely expensive to fix-- something a cash-strapped city Detroit does not have. This will obviously just get worse over time as abandoned neighborhoods continue to decay and take up space that could be utilized for other things.
3) Despite mostly falling crime statistics over the past few years, Detroit is still listed as the second most dangerous city in America by the FBI (2018 report), and the single most dangerous city in America by Forbes for several years in a row.
4) All of these above stats are the state of the city during the single longest period of economic growth in recent US history. On the flip side, we know that recessions hit auto industries rather hard since vehicles are so expensive. During the 2008 recession, the Big 3 auto manufacturers all nearly went bankrupt, and Detroit was hemorrhaging people during the same periods in time. A lot on signs point toward the next recession being as bad, or worse than the 2008 recession, so Detroit will be hit even harder this time around. Furthermore, the Trump Administration has shown itself to not be too fond of certain auto manufacturers, so they may not get bailed out this time around-- all at a time that Ford is already hurting due to falling car sales, tariffs, and plant fires.
5) The population of Grand Rapids has been steadily growing since 1850, with only two or three recorded censuses showing a decline. Addituonally, Grand Rapids wasn't nearly as hard-hit by the recession as Detroit was and recovered far quicker, which indicates that may very well happen again during this next recession.
| 1,553,187,923
|
BeastOfOne
|
ej23p7e
|
ej1zt8a
| 2
| 1
|
CMV: Trucks and commercial trailers should be restricted to the rightmost lane only
Many states already have laws in place restricting trucks to specific lanes. It's a good start, but I believe that these regulations:
- Should be adopted nationwide
- Should extend to trucks hauling commercial trailers, such as those typically used by lawn-care companies or contractors. Trailers-for-rent (UHaul) should also be included in these restrictions.
A truck attempting to overtake another on the freeway can cause dangerous stackups, especially when both are going below the speed limit. Driving around a semi, especially one that's weaving, requires a considerable amount of attention. With their large blind spots, semis are unfit to merge repeatedly at high speeds. Regardless, truckers frequently merge without regard to the cars around them, the responsibility falling solely on the cars to avoid the haphazard merging of an impatient trucker. If one single motorist isn't paying attention --almost a certainty-- the consequence could be remarkably fatal.
If trucks were restricted to the right lane, dangerous backups would be avoided. Traffic flow would be consistently smoother, especially during rush hour. Cars would be able to pass without fear of being in the truck's blind spot.
The same principle also extends to large trailers, which also have a similarly large blind spot and slow the tow-car down to similar speeds.
EDIT: I should have been more clear in my post - of course, every motorist's utmost responsibility is to avoid danger. Trucks and cars alike are frequently required by law to move over a lane if there is a hazard in the rightmost lane, which is obviously acceptable.
|
There's a cheap and free online highway traffic sim [here](http://www.traffic-simulation.de/)
I suggest you play around with it.
When you restrict larger vehicles to the right lane, you're doing three things:
1. Reducing the ability for vehicles to get on/off the highway
2. Effectively reducing the highway to one lane for trucks
3. Effectively reducing the highway by one lane for cars
Highways with less lanes are, by and large, slower to travel in compared to those with more lanes (i.e. 5 lanes vs 2 lanes is on average a faster commute. So for points 2 and 3, everybody takes a hit on their travel time.
​
Further elaborating point 1 - having a single-file line of big vehicles will inevitably result in a line of vehicles in the second-right lane *waiting to merge*. This results in 2 merges to exit, not one. This slowdown during rush hour periods will definitely result in higher congestion.
|
It often happens that a car or truck must travel at the minimum speed of 45 MPH in the right hand lane. Without the option to pass these very slow moving vehicles an extremely long line of slow and large trucks would happen. This would make it difficult and dangerous for others to accelerate to 70 MPH in the short transitional area between one lane and the next.
Trucks should be allowed to pass the very slow vehicles in the right hand lane, and promptly return to that lane after safely passing.
|
9fbdy3
|
CMV: Trucks and commercial trailers should be restricted to the rightmost lane only
|
Many states already have laws in place restricting trucks to specific lanes. It's a good start, but I believe that these regulations:
- Should be adopted nationwide
- Should extend to trucks hauling commercial trailers, such as those typically used by lawn-care companies or contractors. Trailers-for-rent (UHaul) should also be included in these restrictions.
A truck attempting to overtake another on the freeway can cause dangerous stackups, especially when both are going below the speed limit. Driving around a semi, especially one that's weaving, requires a considerable amount of attention. With their large blind spots, semis are unfit to merge repeatedly at high speeds. Regardless, truckers frequently merge without regard to the cars around them, the responsibility falling solely on the cars to avoid the haphazard merging of an impatient trucker. If one single motorist isn't paying attention --almost a certainty-- the consequence could be remarkably fatal.
If trucks were restricted to the right lane, dangerous backups would be avoided. Traffic flow would be consistently smoother, especially during rush hour. Cars would be able to pass without fear of being in the truck's blind spot.
The same principle also extends to large trailers, which also have a similarly large blind spot and slow the tow-car down to similar speeds.
EDIT: I should have been more clear in my post - of course, every motorist's utmost responsibility is to avoid danger. Trucks and cars alike are frequently required by law to move over a lane if there is a hazard in the rightmost lane, which is obviously acceptable.
| 1,536,784,040
|
JeNePasParleFrancais
|
e5v7c8k
|
e5v7c6n
| 7
| 1
|
CMV: Between a Melee class and a Ranged class, the Mage is realistically the best class.
Good day! I hope to stir up some good discussion with this view of mine. My view is this:
**Of the three main types of RPG classes: (Ranged, Melee, and Mage), Mage is realistically the best and most over-powered class.**
I have been playing RPGs for as long as I can remember, and I've DM'ed a few DnD campaigns in the past, and whenever I put these three *main* classes (I say main because, to me, all sub-classes are derived from them) in a realistic context, the mage always comes out to me as the most viable. If it helps, my image of mages has been mostly influenced by my experience with TES.
To start my explanation, I will first begin in explaining the negatives of being a mage, and then move on to the positives:
**Negatives**
*Magic and the intelligence to use it is what makes the mage strong*, not his strength nor agility which are (typically) reserved for the other two classes. Because of this, without magic, mana, or spells, the mage is just an intelligent dude with a stick and marginal martial skill. Useful for solving puzzles but not as much for surviving battles. If, in any way, a mage's magic is silenced or stripped away from him, he easily becomes the least useful class compared to the other two.
Furthermore, mages have a lot of reliance to objects, trinkets and enchantments, and this makes their power even more difficult to maximize. Great magic powers are hidden in artifacts or godly objects like in tomes or jewelry, and unlike the warrior and the ranger who can train their skills to perfection and be strong by virtue of their natural skill, the capacity of a mage is heavily limited to what he has material access to. Since the power of the mage is mostly external and not as accessible compared to warriors and rangers, he needs to search for his sources of power, be it in study or in relics, to achieve his greatest potential.
Also, training as a mage is a lot more complicated compared to the other classes. There are way too many schools/areas of magic to master and a mage would usually devote his life to just one. It takes a lot of time to master just one school or area, compared to the other classes, which are more narrow yet more compact in the mastery of their skills. Perhaps this is why the most powerful mages are the oldest and most ancient ones, while the most powerful rangers and warriors are usually depicted as being in their "prime".
You might say that mages are usually anti-social and comprise a great deal of villainous powers. For the former, I say that a class does not automatically determine the personality of a character. There are anti-social rangers and warriors just as there mages. For the latter, that is merely testament to the kind of power a mage has. The fact that mages are go-to antagonists means that they have the influence and power to twist macro-elements of a world, like politics, course of nature, and balance of order and chaos in order to cause conflict. Why? Because magic.
**Positives**
That said, now for the main supporting arguments to my view:
*The primary power of the mage is his ability to bend natural laws through magic.*
The other classes are focused on mastering them, like in the fast reloading of a bow or the strong cleave of an axe. Those follow natural laws, only that these classes can do them more efficiently and to a greater effect. Mages, however, *bend them to their will* using magic. Because of this, mages can easily compensate for most of their flaws. Their dependency to magic isn't a problem if they somehow magic an unlimited source of mana or an ultra mana-regenerative enchantment. Their weakness to silence is negligible if they have enchantments that protect them from it. Mages have the potential to be extremely adaptive by right of their magic.
You might say: "Well, that's a cop-out since you're basically arguing that mages are the most powerful class since they can have unlimited source of power and can prevent nullifying forces from taking this power away from them. That's obvious." To counter this, I argue that mages can make more of their unlimited source of power compared to if rangers and warriors had access to a similar source of power with respect to their class:
Mages can master all sorts of powers, like the elements, conjuration, necromancy, and divine influence. Mages are closer to primordial gods than rangers and warriors are solely because of how godly their powers could be. They can raise the dead, conjure objects from nothing, spark fire from their fingertips, throw a gust of wind, contain huge objects in tiny spaces, and many more. While rangers and warriors can cut, pierce, and test the elements, mages can do so much more with *just* the elements (earth, wind, fire, water). They can teleport, turn invisible, transmute materials, charm, enchant objects, enhance their own physical abilities through magic, and understand a great deal of worldly and arcane things through their study.
Moreover, a large fraction of the power of warriors and rangers rely on enchantments which *come from mages*. A warrior would take a flaming sword enchanted by a mage over a normal one. A ranger would take a hood that improves his/her accuracy woven by a mage over an ordinary hood. Even these two classes need magic to gain a higher level of power, and mages are masters of magic.
Also, mages are the most survivable class. Mages can conjure food, water, and shelter. They don't need to construct bridges over rivers simply because they can make bridges out of thin air. They can also heal others and themselves. Mages bring a lot of utility and thus why a lot of sub-types of support classes are more related to mage-types.
I am therefore thoroughly convinced that the strongest mage is more powerful than the strongest warrior or ranger simply because the strongest mages are literally gods. Their power is meant to be *over-powered*. They bend the rules. They have better chances of changing the world physically and politically through their magical power, and thus, the mage is the most powerful class.
This is not to say that the other classes are useless. In fact, all classes complement each other. My argument is that, in the bigger picture, the mage has the most power and I am sure that this view of mine is open to change. I have presented much of the arguments given to me in the past that oppose my view, but my view still stands because of how *easily the mage can compensate for them*. To change it, arguments to the contrary would be appreciated.
Thank you.
|
I feel like the biggest reason mages are "op" in the D&D / Pathfinder context is because no adventure publisher and almost no GM is a sufficiently large asshole to FUCK UP your mage.
I primarily play PF, so that's where a lot of my examples will come from. They don't cast Silence on a Dimensional Devish Monk that can blink in and smack your squishy butt multiple times. They don't Dimension Door parties on top of your mage, they don't use Anti-magic fields liberally, nor Archers with readied actions to shoot your mage AS THEY cast, or Dispel Magic on your mage flying 50 ft above the battlefield.
My point is, there are numerous ways to ruin a mage's day that make the martial classes important to a balanced party. Your GM just doesn't do it. It's true that a phenomenally paranoid wizard of a sufficiently high level can protect against almost anything, but those costs can add up for spells like Contingency.
Aside from the monk, I acknowledge most of those tasks needed spells. You're right that magic is important to have, I'm just saying having a class that doesn't have the above issues is similarly vital.
|
In what context are you framing this argument? Because it sounds like you're pulling from a bunch of different kinds of games and fantasy universes, and many of these points are very context specific. "Ranged, Melee, and mage" are not really universal 3 character archetypes across all games/fantasy worlds.
If you're talking about a video game, any game where a specific class is overpowered compared to the others is not a well designed game. You say that mages can do all of these kinds of things that other kinds of classes can't, which implies that not only are they as useful in combat, but they're more versatile, but video games don't work that way. You've got a set amount of points to spend on skills/attributes/abilities/whatever. If your character is putting points into making powerful fireballs, they shouldn't also have enough points to cast invisibility, magic barriers, mind control, and all of the other kinds of crazy types of magic.
There have been games where magic classes were objectively overpowered (D&D version 3.5 being a notable example), for most of the reasons that you've stated, but most people agree that setting things up that way is a mistake, not proof that it's the "natural" state of classes.
|
870i2j
|
CMV: Between a Melee class and a Ranged class, the Mage is realistically the best class.
|
Good day! I hope to stir up some good discussion with this view of mine. My view is this:
**Of the three main types of RPG classes: (Ranged, Melee, and Mage), Mage is realistically the best and most over-powered class.**
I have been playing RPGs for as long as I can remember, and I've DM'ed a few DnD campaigns in the past, and whenever I put these three *main* classes (I say main because, to me, all sub-classes are derived from them) in a realistic context, the mage always comes out to me as the most viable. If it helps, my image of mages has been mostly influenced by my experience with TES.
To start my explanation, I will first begin in explaining the negatives of being a mage, and then move on to the positives:
**Negatives**
*Magic and the intelligence to use it is what makes the mage strong*, not his strength nor agility which are (typically) reserved for the other two classes. Because of this, without magic, mana, or spells, the mage is just an intelligent dude with a stick and marginal martial skill. Useful for solving puzzles but not as much for surviving battles. If, in any way, a mage's magic is silenced or stripped away from him, he easily becomes the least useful class compared to the other two.
Furthermore, mages have a lot of reliance to objects, trinkets and enchantments, and this makes their power even more difficult to maximize. Great magic powers are hidden in artifacts or godly objects like in tomes or jewelry, and unlike the warrior and the ranger who can train their skills to perfection and be strong by virtue of their natural skill, the capacity of a mage is heavily limited to what he has material access to. Since the power of the mage is mostly external and not as accessible compared to warriors and rangers, he needs to search for his sources of power, be it in study or in relics, to achieve his greatest potential.
Also, training as a mage is a lot more complicated compared to the other classes. There are way too many schools/areas of magic to master and a mage would usually devote his life to just one. It takes a lot of time to master just one school or area, compared to the other classes, which are more narrow yet more compact in the mastery of their skills. Perhaps this is why the most powerful mages are the oldest and most ancient ones, while the most powerful rangers and warriors are usually depicted as being in their "prime".
You might say that mages are usually anti-social and comprise a great deal of villainous powers. For the former, I say that a class does not automatically determine the personality of a character. There are anti-social rangers and warriors just as there mages. For the latter, that is merely testament to the kind of power a mage has. The fact that mages are go-to antagonists means that they have the influence and power to twist macro-elements of a world, like politics, course of nature, and balance of order and chaos in order to cause conflict. Why? Because magic.
**Positives**
That said, now for the main supporting arguments to my view:
*The primary power of the mage is his ability to bend natural laws through magic.*
The other classes are focused on mastering them, like in the fast reloading of a bow or the strong cleave of an axe. Those follow natural laws, only that these classes can do them more efficiently and to a greater effect. Mages, however, *bend them to their will* using magic. Because of this, mages can easily compensate for most of their flaws. Their dependency to magic isn't a problem if they somehow magic an unlimited source of mana or an ultra mana-regenerative enchantment. Their weakness to silence is negligible if they have enchantments that protect them from it. Mages have the potential to be extremely adaptive by right of their magic.
You might say: "Well, that's a cop-out since you're basically arguing that mages are the most powerful class since they can have unlimited source of power and can prevent nullifying forces from taking this power away from them. That's obvious." To counter this, I argue that mages can make more of their unlimited source of power compared to if rangers and warriors had access to a similar source of power with respect to their class:
Mages can master all sorts of powers, like the elements, conjuration, necromancy, and divine influence. Mages are closer to primordial gods than rangers and warriors are solely because of how godly their powers could be. They can raise the dead, conjure objects from nothing, spark fire from their fingertips, throw a gust of wind, contain huge objects in tiny spaces, and many more. While rangers and warriors can cut, pierce, and test the elements, mages can do so much more with *just* the elements (earth, wind, fire, water). They can teleport, turn invisible, transmute materials, charm, enchant objects, enhance their own physical abilities through magic, and understand a great deal of worldly and arcane things through their study.
Moreover, a large fraction of the power of warriors and rangers rely on enchantments which *come from mages*. A warrior would take a flaming sword enchanted by a mage over a normal one. A ranger would take a hood that improves his/her accuracy woven by a mage over an ordinary hood. Even these two classes need magic to gain a higher level of power, and mages are masters of magic.
Also, mages are the most survivable class. Mages can conjure food, water, and shelter. They don't need to construct bridges over rivers simply because they can make bridges out of thin air. They can also heal others and themselves. Mages bring a lot of utility and thus why a lot of sub-types of support classes are more related to mage-types.
I am therefore thoroughly convinced that the strongest mage is more powerful than the strongest warrior or ranger simply because the strongest mages are literally gods. Their power is meant to be *over-powered*. They bend the rules. They have better chances of changing the world physically and politically through their magical power, and thus, the mage is the most powerful class.
This is not to say that the other classes are useless. In fact, all classes complement each other. My argument is that, in the bigger picture, the mage has the most power and I am sure that this view of mine is open to change. I have presented much of the arguments given to me in the past that oppose my view, but my view still stands because of how *easily the mage can compensate for them*. To change it, arguments to the contrary would be appreciated.
Thank you.
| 1,521,982,479
|
onesix16
|
dw9hi3o
|
dw99oan
| 2
| 1
|
CMV: Suicide is an act of courage, not cowardice
At it's very core, it's the symbolism of human will being stronger than evolutionary instinct of survival. It's a mark of high independence, freedom and a strength of character which refuses to compromise on its ideals.
People give up on life to protect something more valuable to them - their idea of a good, meaningful life. People who have lost hope due to long term suffering and weakened by circumstances, it's an act of strength. A meaningful death is always more superior than a meaningless life and suicide is a means to achieve that.
People who have been humiliated, or who regret doing something they shouldn't have, it's an act of pride and self respect. Right or wrong, nonetheless, it takes a huge amount of courage to call it all an end.
Such people are romanticists, idealists who want to be remembered for the best version of themselves, the best according to who they are at the moment and they don't care who they would be afterwards because they mightn't like that person anyway. Accepting to live, would mean a compromise on who they are, their ideals - the only thing one can hold in highest regard irrespective of the situation, then fear of death is merely an obstacle in achieving their highest ideals.
I don't care if they change their statement after a failed suicide. Later the context changes, and suicide becomes meaningless. The story ends but its a poor ending. Moreover, the near death experience is terrifying and nobody would want to relive that, besides a fear a hospitalization and having to explain their feelings to deaf ears of reason. Their biology defeats their will and they let go out of weakness.
Except the cases where they are being forced by an internal construct or under the influence of a drug, where it happens in the spur of the moment, where the person is not self aware, it's more appropriate to call it an accident. We are not talking about those cases or related borderline cases, but about the idea itself.
Prevention of suicide is essentially the realists suppressing the expression of idealists and romanticists. People who commit suicide should be respected rather than ridiculed for being foolish. Each suicide is a message to the world saying "I will not bend my knees".
Leo Tolstoy once said - "If we admit that human life can be rules by reason, then all possibility of life is destroyed."
#
​
​
​
|
>it's the symbolism of human will being stronger than evolutionary instinct of survival
The terrifying fact that so many people commit suicide every year, more in the US than die from car crashes, shows that it is not an evolutionary instinct in humans. Clearly, if humans kill themselves so often, they must have a toned down survival instinct compared to other creatures, or an innate ability to overcome it. There's nothing courageous about something everyone else can very ably do as well.
Also, if you furthered this line of thinking, it leads to a dead end. If overcoming your "evolutionary instinct of survival" is brave, then knowingly letting your children die is also brave because people have a [proven biological instinct](https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/03/07/maternal-instinct-is-wired-into-the-brain/) to protect their kids. Running away from a loved one dying could be considered brave because you are overcoming an evolutionary desire to protect them. It's true that your instinct to run away may be stronger than that to save the loved one, but that's pointing back to what i said earlier where it's not bravery if all humans just have a relatively weak survival instinct. But the situation I just mentioned is cowardice by definition. So this concept is contradictory.
>it takes a huge amount of courage to call it all an end
Only in some cases, not in all. When you are being oppressed and you use suicide as a means to advance a political movement, like the woman who jumped in front of a racing horse with the message "Votes for women" written on her, that could be seen as courage. But suicide where you're taking the easier way out, like killing yourself to avoid prison, or killing yourself even though you know you have a family member that needs you right now, is cowardice by definition. It is avoiding the difficult choice for the easy choice because of your own fear, possibly at the expense of others.
|
[r/suicidewatch](https://www.reddit.com/r/SuicideWatch/)
I feel like you can't emphasize this enough. It's selfish to leave your friends and family to cope with your death and deal with the fallout. Your logic is also very similar to the logic of suicide bombers or people like the Columbine killers. It's not courageous to resist society by killing yourself, it's courageous to stand up for your well being and make your life better.
|
b3zeu9
|
CMV: Suicide is an act of courage, not cowardice
|
At it's very core, it's the symbolism of human will being stronger than evolutionary instinct of survival. It's a mark of high independence, freedom and a strength of character which refuses to compromise on its ideals.
People give up on life to protect something more valuable to them - their idea of a good, meaningful life. People who have lost hope due to long term suffering and weakened by circumstances, it's an act of strength. A meaningful death is always more superior than a meaningless life and suicide is a means to achieve that.
People who have been humiliated, or who regret doing something they shouldn't have, it's an act of pride and self respect. Right or wrong, nonetheless, it takes a huge amount of courage to call it all an end.
Such people are romanticists, idealists who want to be remembered for the best version of themselves, the best according to who they are at the moment and they don't care who they would be afterwards because they mightn't like that person anyway. Accepting to live, would mean a compromise on who they are, their ideals - the only thing one can hold in highest regard irrespective of the situation, then fear of death is merely an obstacle in achieving their highest ideals.
I don't care if they change their statement after a failed suicide. Later the context changes, and suicide becomes meaningless. The story ends but its a poor ending. Moreover, the near death experience is terrifying and nobody would want to relive that, besides a fear a hospitalization and having to explain their feelings to deaf ears of reason. Their biology defeats their will and they let go out of weakness.
Except the cases where they are being forced by an internal construct or under the influence of a drug, where it happens in the spur of the moment, where the person is not self aware, it's more appropriate to call it an accident. We are not talking about those cases or related borderline cases, but about the idea itself.
Prevention of suicide is essentially the realists suppressing the expression of idealists and romanticists. People who commit suicide should be respected rather than ridiculed for being foolish. Each suicide is a message to the world saying "I will not bend my knees".
Leo Tolstoy once said - "If we admit that human life can be rules by reason, then all possibility of life is destroyed."
#
​
​
​
| 1,553,221,084
|
DarkSoulMasterFrodo
|
ej394em
|
ej392hq
| 8
| 6
|
CMV: reading fiction novels is a bad way to learn how the world works
I've always had this priblem with fiction books, that are not based on a true story. They seem to usually describe how humans think and behave in great detail, giving you a strong emotion and teaching you something about life. However, how can you not be sceptical of it?
Take the much beloved Dostoyevskyand his "Crime and punishment" for instance. The book describes the psychology of a murderer in great detail, the inner thoughts that he has and so on. When I read it, I can't help but think "Are people actually like that? Is this something Dostoyevsky came up with just to shock people?".
For this reason, most of the books I read are based on true stories or are biographies/autobiographies. I feel like basing your understanding of the world on fiction books will inevitably cloud the person's understanding of other people and themselves. Am I wrong?
|
So I think that there's a difference between 'reading fiction to enrich your understanding of the world' and 'basing your worldview exclusively on fiction'.
Let's look at a couple scenarios:
1. Fiction as autobiography, or semiautobiography. Many works are based on lived experience that may be worth talking about but are fictionalized to smooth over parts that don't make for an interesting read. This is generally better for emotional responses and not actual "true facts" but it still serves a purpose in letting us know what it is like to have certain experiences from the point of view of the person experiencing it.
2. Fiction as metaphor. I recently read *The Woman in the Dunes* by Koto Abe. Most of this is an allegory for the sort of slavery that modern daily life traps us in, and it has a lot in common with *The Myth of Sisyphus* which is an essay (and I suppose by virtue of that fact nonfiction). Both raise mostly the same points, and if the only real difference is that one is fiction and one isn't, then *The Woman in the Dunes* is no worse a way to learn about the world than *The Myth of Sisyphus* except that, by your argument, it is worse simply by nature of it being fiction.
I think it's important to note about this point that the two works in question aren't interested in informing the reader of technical details or events. Rather they are essentially persuasive. You are meant to read them, agree with the author's beliefs about the world (or not!), and alter your worldview thusly. I think this is probably the most common way that people use fiction to 'learn about the world' in a way that can't be replicated by biographies that only look at verifiable events that have taken place.
If anything, only reading biographies and books that are based on true stories give you a relatively limited worldview since they are, again, only concerned with events and sometimes reported emotions. However, a philosophical essay (for example) is going to attempt to answer a question that those works are incapable of answering by their very nature. Philosophical essays often use "thought experiments" to try and give a hypothetical where they can prove that their ideas are the only ones that make sense. These though experiments are fiction but they are still attempting to *prove* something about the world. A famous thought experiment would be Descartes' idea that an evil demon is completely deceiving him in every conceivable way, and then trying to figure out what he can still say that he knows to be true (this is where "I think, therefore I am" comes from). There's no reason why a thought experiment couldn't be turned into a fictitious story with the exact same goals in mind and lose nothing other than maybe the nuance of an author speaking directly to his audience about his conclusions instead of having to have it make sense within the narrative.
Additionally, *even if* a novel presents a flawed, skewed, inaccurate view of reality, we can still use that information to tell us something about the *author* which in turn tells us something about the world. Would it be accurate to say 'People basing their worldview on fiction can have an inaccurate worldview'? Sure. Would it be accurate to say 'Fiction is an inherently bad way to learn about the world'? I think not.
|
Using fiction as a snapshot of people is something I think you can do, but you necessarily have to understand that this snapshot is a snapshot of what the author's trying to tell you. Any ideas conveyed here are produced in the context of the author's mindset and conveyed in the context of the story.
And that's kind of the point. If the author believes something, you will be opening a window into the mind of someone who thinks these things.
But it's very hard to think things you don't believe.
And that's kind of why Dostoyevsky's story is so hard to believe. It's not about how it's fine to murder. And that's kind of the issue.This book essentially sets out to show that just because the murder was as close to justified as he could make it, and it wasn't punished by society, it didn't matter because there was more to him. It was kind of written in response to this idea that the death of religion would send people into this state of nihilism where they felt like nothing mattered and that there would be a dissolution of morality as such until such time as we built new ones.
So, I think thtat's kind of what you need to remember about books. You're not reading what you might be reading on surface value. You're reading what is essentially a system of beliefs held by the author that is being explored. Once you understand the narrative, you can pick over it properly and assess the biases.
And also, you're saying that you're basing your idea of people on biographies and autobiographies. These are not necessarily reasonable accounts of the truth either. If you're writing about yourself, then you think you're right and you will downplay your negatives and play up your positives. All you're doing here, then is reading one person's account of what life is like through the context that they're likely playing themselves up to be better than they really are.
|
94ms4z
|
CMV: reading fiction novels is a bad way to learn how the world works
|
I've always had this priblem with fiction books, that are not based on a true story. They seem to usually describe how humans think and behave in great detail, giving you a strong emotion and teaching you something about life. However, how can you not be sceptical of it?
Take the much beloved Dostoyevskyand his "Crime and punishment" for instance. The book describes the psychology of a murderer in great detail, the inner thoughts that he has and so on. When I read it, I can't help but think "Are people actually like that? Is this something Dostoyevsky came up with just to shock people?".
For this reason, most of the books I read are based on true stories or are biographies/autobiographies. I feel like basing your understanding of the world on fiction books will inevitably cloud the person's understanding of other people and themselves. Am I wrong?
| 1,533,419,599
|
kerakter
|
e3m9yan
|
e3m9xhc
| 3
| 2
|
CMV: Detroit, MI is a dying city and will eventually be surpassed by Grand Rapids, MI as the largest city in Michigan.
1) The population in Detroit has been steadily falling every year since 1950 when it hit an all-time high of 1,850,000 residents; it now has 673,104 residents according to the 2017 US Census.
2) Large sections of Detroit have undergone severe urban decay, which is extremely expensive to fix-- something a cash-strapped city Detroit does not have. This will obviously just get worse over time as abandoned neighborhoods continue to decay and take up space that could be utilized for other things.
3) Despite mostly falling crime statistics over the past few years, Detroit is still listed as the second most dangerous city in America by the FBI (2018 report), and the single most dangerous city in America by Forbes for several years in a row.
4) All of these above stats are the state of the city during the single longest period of economic growth in recent US history. On the flip side, we know that recessions hit auto industries rather hard since vehicles are so expensive. During the 2008 recession, the Big 3 auto manufacturers all nearly went bankrupt, and Detroit was hemorrhaging people during the same periods in time. A lot on signs point toward the next recession being as bad, or worse than the 2008 recession, so Detroit will be hit even harder this time around. Furthermore, the Trump Administration has shown itself to not be too fond of certain auto manufacturers, so they may not get bailed out this time around-- all at a time that Ford is already hurting due to falling car sales, tariffs, and plant fires.
5) The population of Grand Rapids has been steadily growing since 1850, with only two or three recorded censuses showing a decline. Addituonally, Grand Rapids wasn't nearly as hard-hit by the recession as Detroit was and recovered far quicker, which indicates that may very well happen again during this next recession.
|
I think you underestimate the amount of momentum a city the size of the Detroit has. It has a major airport, trains,highways, and a port already making it easy to get to. It has every major sports franchises and giant stadiums for concerts to drive tourism. It has fortune 500 companies. It borders Canada so there is plenty of international business from that. What does Grand Rapids have? A branch of GE, a river that's only good to send logs down and a couple of breweries?
Sure Grand Rapids could get all those things eventually that would give it staying power as a major city but that would require a significant amount of organic growth that is just not happening in the upper Midwest right now.
|
Sorry, u/iAmBear85 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
> **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1).
If you would like to appeal, [**you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list**](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1), before [messaging the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+1+Appeal+iAmBear85&message=iAmBear85+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+[his/her+post](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/b3t23h/-/ej208um/\)+because...). Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
|
b3t23h
|
CMV: Detroit, MI is a dying city and will eventually be surpassed by Grand Rapids, MI as the largest city in Michigan.
|
1) The population in Detroit has been steadily falling every year since 1950 when it hit an all-time high of 1,850,000 residents; it now has 673,104 residents according to the 2017 US Census.
2) Large sections of Detroit have undergone severe urban decay, which is extremely expensive to fix-- something a cash-strapped city Detroit does not have. This will obviously just get worse over time as abandoned neighborhoods continue to decay and take up space that could be utilized for other things.
3) Despite mostly falling crime statistics over the past few years, Detroit is still listed as the second most dangerous city in America by the FBI (2018 report), and the single most dangerous city in America by Forbes for several years in a row.
4) All of these above stats are the state of the city during the single longest period of economic growth in recent US history. On the flip side, we know that recessions hit auto industries rather hard since vehicles are so expensive. During the 2008 recession, the Big 3 auto manufacturers all nearly went bankrupt, and Detroit was hemorrhaging people during the same periods in time. A lot on signs point toward the next recession being as bad, or worse than the 2008 recession, so Detroit will be hit even harder this time around. Furthermore, the Trump Administration has shown itself to not be too fond of certain auto manufacturers, so they may not get bailed out this time around-- all at a time that Ford is already hurting due to falling car sales, tariffs, and plant fires.
5) The population of Grand Rapids has been steadily growing since 1850, with only two or three recorded censuses showing a decline. Addituonally, Grand Rapids wasn't nearly as hard-hit by the recession as Detroit was and recovered far quicker, which indicates that may very well happen again during this next recession.
| 1,553,187,923
|
BeastOfOne
|
ej24my0
|
ej24db5
| 2
| 1
|
CMV: Men and Women are not equal and they shouldn't be.
This might be a fairly unpopular opinion and I might seem to be like a critter from stone age but I believe that the two are not equal. I believe that men and women are different and couldn't be compared to each other. Comparing them would be like comparing apples and oranges.
Saying that they are equal would be like saying 1kg is equal to 1km.
In the name of feminism trying to bring the women at par with men is completely unreasonable. Both of them have their own roles to play in a family and the society. Historically, women used to look after the family and kids while men used to go out to earn bread and toast. Women's work in no way was inferior to that of men.
**I am not against women rights, education or their empowerment.** I am a strong believer of their empowerment. But to achieve it, they shouldn't change their role as nurturer of children or caretaker of the family.
[Working mohers risk damaging child's prospects](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-30342/Working-mothers-risk-damaging-childs-prospects.html)
Mother's care for child is of extreme importance and I don't think how anyone can deny it. But if mother has to work for some reason then I think that father must stay to take care of child. Something is better than nothing.
Even speaking biologically, men and women were not made equals. Women have an entire different set of organs from that of men. Women's physiology is wee different from that of men. And, infact, women are more prone to certain diseases than men are. For example, UTI. [Why are urinary tract infections more common in women?](http://kidney.org.au/your-kidneys/detect/urinary-tract-infections/why-are-urinary-tract-infections-more-common-in-women)
So shouldn't we humans, to achieve equality among the two sexes, try to alter their anatomy and physiology? (Sarcasm)
To end it, I would reiterate that in no way is either sex inferior to the other. **Men shouldn't oppress women**. And women shouldn't try to compete with men. It is not equality we need. It is change of perspective we need. We need to aim our society to a state where both sexes are respected, none feels inferior to the other, and where they cooperate with each other.
|
I think you are arguing against something that doesn't actually exist.
Literally no one thinks that men and women are _equivalent_. Equivalency would be "apples to apples". The question on hand about men and women is whether they are both "good fruit", worthy of equal representation in the salad.
While I believe that both parents should nurture their child and that aside from the health benefits of breast milk, that it doesn't matter particularly much which parent in a male/female two parent family is home with the child or which is the primary caregiver, the rest of what you see is pretty identical to what people mean by "equal", you just don't seem to think that the word is right.
The question of equality is about things like equal access to jobs, equal access to respect, power, opportunity - to be evaluated on merit rather then prejudice and so on. It's not about "being the same", it's about _having access that is equal using equal criteria_.
Why shouldn't women compete with men? Men compete with men, why shouldn't women? Men compete with women...why shouldn't women compete with men? Competition really exists in the world, why would you cut off women from participation in it if you _don't think men should oppress women_?
|
I am confident I can change your view as you stated it here.
I think that the correct perception is that men and women are equal in one way, but are never equal in another way. In terms of your soul, personality, value of thought, etc... you should definitely consider yourself equal--male or female. If you don't, that means you are valuing someone else's existence as lower than your own based on the sex you were born as. Which is dumb.
On the other hand, based on straight science, the way nature always do: females are weaker than men physically and have different anatomy. I think that it's biologically stupid when people that say women are equal in the context of, for example, a physical and competitive sport.
So, if you can agree with all of that, then view should be that men and women are, equal and not-equal at the same time.
|
86xvor
|
CMV: Men and Women are not equal and they shouldn't be.
|
This might be a fairly unpopular opinion and I might seem to be like a critter from stone age but I believe that the two are not equal. I believe that men and women are different and couldn't be compared to each other. Comparing them would be like comparing apples and oranges.
Saying that they are equal would be like saying 1kg is equal to 1km.
In the name of feminism trying to bring the women at par with men is completely unreasonable. Both of them have their own roles to play in a family and the society. Historically, women used to look after the family and kids while men used to go out to earn bread and toast. Women's work in no way was inferior to that of men.
**I am not against women rights, education or their empowerment.** I am a strong believer of their empowerment. But to achieve it, they shouldn't change their role as nurturer of children or caretaker of the family.
[Working mohers risk damaging child's prospects](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-30342/Working-mothers-risk-damaging-childs-prospects.html)
Mother's care for child is of extreme importance and I don't think how anyone can deny it. But if mother has to work for some reason then I think that father must stay to take care of child. Something is better than nothing.
Even speaking biologically, men and women were not made equals. Women have an entire different set of organs from that of men. Women's physiology is wee different from that of men. And, infact, women are more prone to certain diseases than men are. For example, UTI. [Why are urinary tract infections more common in women?](http://kidney.org.au/your-kidneys/detect/urinary-tract-infections/why-are-urinary-tract-infections-more-common-in-women)
So shouldn't we humans, to achieve equality among the two sexes, try to alter their anatomy and physiology? (Sarcasm)
To end it, I would reiterate that in no way is either sex inferior to the other. **Men shouldn't oppress women**. And women shouldn't try to compete with men. It is not equality we need. It is change of perspective we need. We need to aim our society to a state where both sexes are respected, none feels inferior to the other, and where they cooperate with each other.
| 1,521,943,828
|
The_Almighty_Bob
|
dw8nyx5
|
dw8nu3c
| 17
| 4
|
CMV: Facebook did nothing wrong.
First of all, regarding the consent issue, Facebook's data policy states that, if you share data with a friend, then that friend can re-share that data with third party apps, and according to Facebook's Platform Policy, apps can "Only use friend data (including friends list) in the person’s experience in your app."
This, I believe, is a reasonable policy. If your friend shares some data with someone, it would be completely reasonable for you to feed that data into say an app that determines the diversity of your friends group. At the same time, however, this policy protects your friends' privacy by disallowing the use of their data beyond your experience with the app.
Secondly, Facebook did not sell CA people's data. CA [hired Professor Aleksandr Kogan](http://www.businessinsider.com/cambridge-analytica-trump-firm-facebook-data-50-million-users-2018-3) to serve as a front, pretending to be making a personality prediction app for research purposes. They then used that app to harvest friend data in volation of platform policy. In other words, CA obtained the data by defrauding Facebook.
When Facebook found out in 2016, they performed their due diligence in protecting their data. They demanded that CA and Kogan delete the data, and CA [certified](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/17/us/politics/cambridge-analytica-trump-campaign.html) (meaning it's perjury if they lie) that they deleted said data.
So in short:
* Users consented to the sharing of their data on Facebook, and the policy the consented to was reasonable.
* Facebook did not sell CA user data. CA acquired the data through fraud and perjury.
* Facebook performed their due diligence in protecting user data when they discovered the fraud.
|
>When Facebook found out in 2016, they performed their due diligence in protecting their data.
They violated a consent decree they made with the FTC in 2011 to report unauthorized sharing of data with users. This agreement was reached after the FTC found Facebook to be in violation of privacy laws. In exchange for signing the consent decree, they didn't have to pay any fines.
|
Well I don’t. I’m not ok that everything about me because I’m friends with some is being downloaded so they can manipulate people.
FB saw this. Did nothing. Because they don’t give a shit a about your privacy. All they care about is 💰
As they say: If the product is free, your the product.
|
86rgys
|
CMV: Facebook did nothing wrong.
|
First of all, regarding the consent issue, Facebook's data policy states that, if you share data with a friend, then that friend can re-share that data with third party apps, and according to Facebook's Platform Policy, apps can "Only use friend data (including friends list) in the person’s experience in your app."
This, I believe, is a reasonable policy. If your friend shares some data with someone, it would be completely reasonable for you to feed that data into say an app that determines the diversity of your friends group. At the same time, however, this policy protects your friends' privacy by disallowing the use of their data beyond your experience with the app.
Secondly, Facebook did not sell CA people's data. CA [hired Professor Aleksandr Kogan](http://www.businessinsider.com/cambridge-analytica-trump-firm-facebook-data-50-million-users-2018-3) to serve as a front, pretending to be making a personality prediction app for research purposes. They then used that app to harvest friend data in volation of platform policy. In other words, CA obtained the data by defrauding Facebook.
When Facebook found out in 2016, they performed their due diligence in protecting their data. They demanded that CA and Kogan delete the data, and CA [certified](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/17/us/politics/cambridge-analytica-trump-campaign.html) (meaning it's perjury if they lie) that they deleted said data.
So in short:
* Users consented to the sharing of their data on Facebook, and the policy the consented to was reasonable.
* Facebook did not sell CA user data. CA acquired the data through fraud and perjury.
* Facebook performed their due diligence in protecting user data when they discovered the fraud.
| 1,521,874,289
|
zacker150
|
dw7rfxr
|
dw7cip4
| 4
| 2
|
CMV: We should start saying "majority privilege" instead of "white privilege" because it'd be a much more effective term
For the purposes of this discussion, I'm just going to assume that we all agree that privilege exists in the first place - I'm not too interested in debating that.
Basically, I think it's important for white people in the USA to understand the concept of privilege and racism - but I'm not sure that "white privilege" is the best term when describing it to them.
As a white person I first felt angry and annoyed when talking about "white privilege" - I felt personally attacked, or that I was being criticized for some innate quality I could not change about myself. Unfortunately I think this delayed my full understanding of this concept a little bit since I'd often become defensive whenever the term was used in conversation or debate - and its well documented in studies that being defensive literally limits your understanding, you become more rigid in your beliefs and you begin to enter survivalist thinking (fight or flight).
I'm now a full believer in white privilege and I'm trying to understand and listen to other's experiences, but it frustrates me that this conversation tends to often turn people off exactly when it should be reaching out to them.
For that first reason (and more) I believe "majority privilege" would be a far more effective term when talking about the privilege we experience (without diluting who the majority is)...it would also be a much more flexible term that could help explain other "majority privileges" (say between straight vs. gay, etc).
"Majority privilege" also better define the power dynamics the term is seeking to explore - because the actual power structure actually has nothing to do with skin color (well, obviously it does but let me explain). Yes, this *current* power structure we reference as white privilege is about skin color but skin color is the defining variable, not the prime motivator - white skin in and of itself does not create privilege or power absent of demographics, history, population, and tribalism.
There's already a backlash among people who believe they aren't racist that grow furious when told they have "white privilege" - I'd suggest that this is first and foremost because they feel under attack by the term "white privilege" and that they'd be far more open to understanding their privilege as the **majority** demographic in this country...this removes blame over something the person can't control (their skin color) and instead moves their attention to the power structure itself.
Maybe you'd like to argue that white feelings are not that important, and it's their fault if they aren't listening to minorities about the privileges they experience. Maybe, but I always think it's important - no matter how frustrating - to consider the best way to reach an audience, even if you don't think they deserve any kindness. "Majority privilege" would certainly be a less divisive term. Is there any reason to believe that if our roles were completely reversed, and the country was 70% black or Latino or Asian, I'd argue that the same frustrations, micro aggressions, and systemic pressure would exist in favor of the new majority group...so again, "majority privilege" keeps the conversation focused on the important defining principle in the power structure - majority - which you can still connect to race obviously but you're audience will be more open.
I think that's it. I'll maybe update this if I think of anything else.
EDIT: ∆ I didn't think this through very well. Mind changed very quickly.
|
Apartheid.
The privileged group isn't always in the majority.
Also, the majority of people in the US are women, I still have male privilege at my CS job.
|
I think that arguing to make the term less divisive is challenging. The idea of white privilege is going to make people uncomfortable no matter how it is explained or referred to. I'm worried that making the message "less divisive" would, in practice, water down the concept until it is effectively meaningless.
Another important idea is that it disconnects the whiteness from white privilege. It almost reminds me of arguments that the Civil War wasn't fought over slavery, that it was economic issues and states' rights. Those were both results of slavery, and making the cause seem less divisive provides more of an out for the perpetrators than it draws people into the conversation. I think the same thing would happen if you avoid confronting white privilege head on.
|
6xqkr9
|
CMV: We should start saying "majority privilege" instead of "white privilege" because it'd be a much more effective term
|
For the purposes of this discussion, I'm just going to assume that we all agree that privilege exists in the first place - I'm not too interested in debating that.
Basically, I think it's important for white people in the USA to understand the concept of privilege and racism - but I'm not sure that "white privilege" is the best term when describing it to them.
As a white person I first felt angry and annoyed when talking about "white privilege" - I felt personally attacked, or that I was being criticized for some innate quality I could not change about myself. Unfortunately I think this delayed my full understanding of this concept a little bit since I'd often become defensive whenever the term was used in conversation or debate - and its well documented in studies that being defensive literally limits your understanding, you become more rigid in your beliefs and you begin to enter survivalist thinking (fight or flight).
I'm now a full believer in white privilege and I'm trying to understand and listen to other's experiences, but it frustrates me that this conversation tends to often turn people off exactly when it should be reaching out to them.
For that first reason (and more) I believe "majority privilege" would be a far more effective term when talking about the privilege we experience (without diluting who the majority is)...it would also be a much more flexible term that could help explain other "majority privileges" (say between straight vs. gay, etc).
"Majority privilege" also better define the power dynamics the term is seeking to explore - because the actual power structure actually has nothing to do with skin color (well, obviously it does but let me explain). Yes, this *current* power structure we reference as white privilege is about skin color but skin color is the defining variable, not the prime motivator - white skin in and of itself does not create privilege or power absent of demographics, history, population, and tribalism.
There's already a backlash among people who believe they aren't racist that grow furious when told they have "white privilege" - I'd suggest that this is first and foremost because they feel under attack by the term "white privilege" and that they'd be far more open to understanding their privilege as the **majority** demographic in this country...this removes blame over something the person can't control (their skin color) and instead moves their attention to the power structure itself.
Maybe you'd like to argue that white feelings are not that important, and it's their fault if they aren't listening to minorities about the privileges they experience. Maybe, but I always think it's important - no matter how frustrating - to consider the best way to reach an audience, even if you don't think they deserve any kindness. "Majority privilege" would certainly be a less divisive term. Is there any reason to believe that if our roles were completely reversed, and the country was 70% black or Latino or Asian, I'd argue that the same frustrations, micro aggressions, and systemic pressure would exist in favor of the new majority group...so again, "majority privilege" keeps the conversation focused on the important defining principle in the power structure - majority - which you can still connect to race obviously but you're audience will be more open.
I think that's it. I'll maybe update this if I think of anything else.
EDIT: ∆ I didn't think this through very well. Mind changed very quickly.
| 1,504,404,493
|
supermanbluegoldfish
|
dmhrznn
|
dmhriro
| 455
| 6
|
CMV: Maple Syrup is a topping and not a condiment
A friend of mine and I have had this debate for years, so I thought I would bring this to Reddit, to see if they can change my view. I argue that maple syrup is a topping and not a condiment. I feel like it is a topping because it is used sparingly on only a few different food products and is normally found on top of these items, thus making it a topping. My feeling is that a condiment is something that is used a lot more commonly, like ketchup or mustard.
The definitions don't help much:
Topping: a layer of food poured or spread over a base of a different type of food to add flavor.
Condiment: a substance such as salt or ketchup that is used to add flavor to food.
My friend has pointed out that he has seen syrup on the condiment isle at a grocery store, but I have seen the opposite as well, as I found syrup in the topping isle of my local Kroger. It is obvious there is some societal disagreement as to where maple syrup stands, but I am sure that it is a topping and not a condiment. Change my view.
|
> The definitions don't help much:
> Topping: a layer of food poured or spread over a base of a different type of food to add flavor.
> Condiment: a substance such as salt or ketchup that is used to add flavor to food.
How do they not help? Maple syrup is absolutely a condiment and also absolutely a Topping by those definitions.
Maple syrup is also on this [list of condiments](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_condiments)
> My friend has pointed out that he has seen syrup on the condiment isle at a grocery store, but I have seen the opposite as well, as I found syrup in the topping isle of my local Kroger.
That makes sense if it is both.
|
I can see it as both. I think the word “topping” is usually seen as a sweet item (strawberries, crumbled Oreos, M&M’s, whipped cream) with the exception of nuts. Saying this, as sweet as syrup is, I guess it can be seen as a topping. I think I’d classify it as a condiment, personally, but I guess it could honestly be both.
|
a8b717
|
CMV: Maple Syrup is a topping and not a condiment
|
A friend of mine and I have had this debate for years, so I thought I would bring this to Reddit, to see if they can change my view. I argue that maple syrup is a topping and not a condiment. I feel like it is a topping because it is used sparingly on only a few different food products and is normally found on top of these items, thus making it a topping. My feeling is that a condiment is something that is used a lot more commonly, like ketchup or mustard.
The definitions don't help much:
Topping: a layer of food poured or spread over a base of a different type of food to add flavor.
Condiment: a substance such as salt or ketchup that is used to add flavor to food.
My friend has pointed out that he has seen syrup on the condiment isle at a grocery store, but I have seen the opposite as well, as I found syrup in the topping isle of my local Kroger. It is obvious there is some societal disagreement as to where maple syrup stands, but I am sure that it is a topping and not a condiment. Change my view.
| 1,545,407,103
|
capta1n_sarcasm
|
ec9epia
|
ec9edin
| 12
| 2
|
CMV: Whether people are born male or female, they should be free to dress and act absolutely however they want. Changing your pronoun to be "in line" with these actions, however, is ultimately harmful to society.
The implication that dressing or acting differently than is typical for your "gender" requires a different pronoun is simply adding more stereotypes to the labels "male" and "female." As a queer woman, I have spent much of my life feeling like I didn't necessarily dress or act the same as the other girls around me. I have many of what are typically considered very masculine characteristics. I never wanted to or allowed myself to feel like my pronoun somehow defined who I had to be or what I had to act like. I figured women can do or be anything. I think it would ultimately be more beneficial to youth growing up to create a society in which your pronoun is not associated with a way to act or even feel. For me, watching those who were born men put on makeup and feminine clothing and say they now "identify as women" is now associating those attributes to the female persona, though they are attributes I do not hold. Am I less of a woman for lacking them? What does that even mean - identifying as a woman? Will people think differently of me because of my pronoun? If so, stop. My "she" doesn't define me and I don't think others' pronouns should define them as we let them do. I really wish that when people called me "she" it really only referred to my sex and didn't put all these other implications on me.
​
I want to be clear I am completely open to people dressing, acting, and thinking outside of what society has defined as normative for you (as evidence by my own life). What I think needs to change, though, is society's associations with our gender pronouns as opposed to people changing their own and thereby reaffirming all of the stereotypes we've associated with them.
Edit: My view has changed! I realized that while I don’t feel it, some people have a very strong sense of gender identity which is why their pronouns are so important to them. Does this strong sense of identity create more of a divide between the genders? How much of it is socialized? Like though there are tons of questions to be asked - asking people to not change their pronouns if they do feel so passionately about it is just not really effective. After all of the discussion, I think more of what I wanted was simply lowered expectations of what it means to be male or female (no matter cis or trans)
Thanks to everyone who gave really articulate arguments without bashing me for my views. I would love to keep discussing the questions I posed in my edit if anyone wants.
|
I'm a trans man who tried very hard to be a queer woman for a long time, so I can say from experience: if you are living as a queer woman and it feels like you really exist, like people can really see you, that's what makes you a woman, not your clothes or pronouns or any other window-dressing.
That is to say, if you are fully content with people, including yourself, seeing a queer woman when they look at you… if you can look in the mirror and think "That's me, a queer woman" and not feel like something's gone very wrong somewhere along the line… well, you're doing better than I did.
The thing is, I don't act much differently than I did before I transitioned, except in situations where it would be unsafe to be seen as anything other than a cis straight person (more on that in a moment). I still own nail polish and even a few of my old skirts, which I wear once in a while in safe queer settings.
The only difference is... I'm a guy. That's it. I dress mostly the same and do most of the same stuff I did as a queer woman, but with stubble on my face, thicker shoulders, muskier sweat and a deeper voice. When I do wear one of those skirts, I look like a guy in a skirt. I get called ‘he’ without having to ask for it anymore.
Can you imagine having that happen to you and actually enjoying it? Can you imagine getting top surgery and seeing a broad, flat male chest with dinky little nipples in the mirror? Can you imagine more hair on your body and less on your head? More fat on your belly, less on your hips?
Or is your gut reaction a big "nope"? If so, you're probably not trans, congratulations! If thinking about it inspires a strange feeling of longing… you might have some soul searching to do.
Please understand that when trans women go femme-to-the-max, it's not because they think heels, a dress and lots of makeup are what make them women. Often they do it because they enjoy it, of course, or because they want to make up for a lifetime of having to repress all traces of femininity. But for many, it's also an issue of respect, safety, and believe it or not, access to healthcare.
Same for trans men and masculinity. The last time I ever wore nail polish at work (orange, for the record – that's a masculine enough color, right?), I overheard my boss asking a coworker, "Why is she wearing nail polish? I thought she wanted to be a guy."
This was someone who was usually okay at calling me 'he' (this was early in my transition so people were still getting used to it), but all it took was the gendered visual of paint on my nails to trip him up. That's how powerful our cultural symbols of gender can be. So I stopped wearing it, except occasionally on weekends with my queer friends.
So there's often a lot of pressure on trans women and men to conform to our new gender, even more than for cis women and men. As I said, this can even affect our access to medical transition, which is often subject to gatekeeping. Trans women who wear jeans to their therapy sessions have been asked if they're really serious about transitioning. Things like that.
One last point: in one of your comments you refer to "the pronouns you were born with." Nobody's born with pronouns. 'He' and 'she' are just grammar, not laws of nature. Third-person pronouns are a convenient way to refer to someone without saying their name over and over. Dividing them by gender is just an arbitrary way to make it a little bit clearer who you might be talking about in a mixed group. Not all languages do this. For example, Finnish has only one pronoun, hän, which applies to everyone. It's all made up, so why not use the pronouns people are comfortable with?
|
There's two things you're conflating here: gender *performance* and gender *identity*.
Gender performance is basically acting like a particular gender. Wearing a dress and makeup might be part of a woman's gender performance. Growing a mustache and beard might be part of a man's gender performance.
Gender identity is who you are. Whether you consider yourself a he or a she.
It is possible to be a woman who wears a dress. It is possible to be a woman who doesn't wear a dress (with children, this might be the more tomboy end of the spectrum). It is possible to be a man who wears a dress (cross-dressing). It is possible to be a man who doesn't wear a dress.
Similarly, most bearded people are men, but there are clean-shaven men and also women with beards (eg pcos is a medical condition that causes facial hair).
So you're getting the causality backwards. A trans woman doesn't wear a dress and therefore claim the right to be called a woman. A trans woman **identifies as a woman** and therefore wears a dress / wears makeup / etc.
There's also some amount of gatekeeping at work: someone AFAB who identifies as a man will be more likely allowed to transition (including hormones or surgery or whatever) if they come to an evaluation in a suit and tie than if they come in a dress. Someone who was AMAB but identifies as female might be called "not trans enough" if they refuse to look the part.
We already have people who perform as the opposite gender without transitioning. Drag queens are an extreme example. Women wearing pants is something that started out as radical cross-dressing, even though it's accepted now.
So if that were enough for trans people, you wouldn't need to make this cmv. They transition because of identity, not performance.
|
a851eu
|
CMV: Whether people are born male or female, they should be free to dress and act absolutely however they want. Changing your pronoun to be "in line" with these actions, however, is ultimately harmful to society.
|
The implication that dressing or acting differently than is typical for your "gender" requires a different pronoun is simply adding more stereotypes to the labels "male" and "female." As a queer woman, I have spent much of my life feeling like I didn't necessarily dress or act the same as the other girls around me. I have many of what are typically considered very masculine characteristics. I never wanted to or allowed myself to feel like my pronoun somehow defined who I had to be or what I had to act like. I figured women can do or be anything. I think it would ultimately be more beneficial to youth growing up to create a society in which your pronoun is not associated with a way to act or even feel. For me, watching those who were born men put on makeup and feminine clothing and say they now "identify as women" is now associating those attributes to the female persona, though they are attributes I do not hold. Am I less of a woman for lacking them? What does that even mean - identifying as a woman? Will people think differently of me because of my pronoun? If so, stop. My "she" doesn't define me and I don't think others' pronouns should define them as we let them do. I really wish that when people called me "she" it really only referred to my sex and didn't put all these other implications on me.
​
I want to be clear I am completely open to people dressing, acting, and thinking outside of what society has defined as normative for you (as evidence by my own life). What I think needs to change, though, is society's associations with our gender pronouns as opposed to people changing their own and thereby reaffirming all of the stereotypes we've associated with them.
Edit: My view has changed! I realized that while I don’t feel it, some people have a very strong sense of gender identity which is why their pronouns are so important to them. Does this strong sense of identity create more of a divide between the genders? How much of it is socialized? Like though there are tons of questions to be asked - asking people to not change their pronouns if they do feel so passionately about it is just not really effective. After all of the discussion, I think more of what I wanted was simply lowered expectations of what it means to be male or female (no matter cis or trans)
Thanks to everyone who gave really articulate arguments without bashing me for my views. I would love to keep discussing the questions I posed in my edit if anyone wants.
| 1,545,356,269
|
mybadwolf
|
ec8vixr
|
ec80sly
| 34
| 22
|
CMV: All medicine should be available for purchase without a prescription.
Using a doctors advice is an option, not something I am required to do. I follow my doctor because I didnt go to medical school and I trust his/her experience and knowledge base. BUT if I want a certain medicine then I should be free to misuse, abuse, self diagnose to my hearts content. The governments job is not to babysit me. Personal responsibility is just that, its personal. Following my doctor is personal responsibility. I should be free to do with myself as I please. No one prevents a 630lb man from ordering a few meals from mcdonalds for lunch but I have to see a doctor if I want a xanax for a long flight and then he feels weird because he could potentially lose his medical license with all the drug hunting the DEA does.
"I thought this was America" - randy marsh.
|
Overuse of antibiotics is a major cause of strains that are resistant to antibiotics.
Allowing people to buy these over the counter will greatly exacerbate this already serious problem.
|
The difference here is the misuse of food is truly personal. It's affecting the 630lb man's life, and in most circumstances, no one else's.
If you acquire and misuse drugs you don't understand, and everyone else was also free to do so, the affects are not likely to be personal. People would have a high chance of harming others. You may pop 2 pills, die at the wheel, and drive into a crowd of 50 people. Suddenly this personal decision is no longer personal. It's other people's responsibility to make sure that you don't become a danger to other people, the same way criminals and the mentally ill are prevented from harming others too. The doctor's involvement ensures that potentially dangerous medications are given to those who need them, not those who would inadvertently harm society. That's not the same as babysitting everyone.
|
6xrh5h
|
CMV: All medicine should be available for purchase without a prescription.
|
Using a doctors advice is an option, not something I am required to do. I follow my doctor because I didnt go to medical school and I trust his/her experience and knowledge base. BUT if I want a certain medicine then I should be free to misuse, abuse, self diagnose to my hearts content. The governments job is not to babysit me. Personal responsibility is just that, its personal. Following my doctor is personal responsibility. I should be free to do with myself as I please. No one prevents a 630lb man from ordering a few meals from mcdonalds for lunch but I have to see a doctor if I want a xanax for a long flight and then he feels weird because he could potentially lose his medical license with all the drug hunting the DEA does.
"I thought this was America" - randy marsh.
| 1,504,416,579
|
badabinglove
|
dmhyar8
|
dmhy9xh
| 48
| 5
|
CMV: Maple Syrup is a topping and not a condiment
A friend of mine and I have had this debate for years, so I thought I would bring this to Reddit, to see if they can change my view. I argue that maple syrup is a topping and not a condiment. I feel like it is a topping because it is used sparingly on only a few different food products and is normally found on top of these items, thus making it a topping. My feeling is that a condiment is something that is used a lot more commonly, like ketchup or mustard.
The definitions don't help much:
Topping: a layer of food poured or spread over a base of a different type of food to add flavor.
Condiment: a substance such as salt or ketchup that is used to add flavor to food.
My friend has pointed out that he has seen syrup on the condiment isle at a grocery store, but I have seen the opposite as well, as I found syrup in the topping isle of my local Kroger. It is obvious there is some societal disagreement as to where maple syrup stands, but I am sure that it is a topping and not a condiment. Change my view.
|
Like most people are saying ITT it is very much both. However, if it must be categorized in one and not the other I would say it is a condiment. While it is often used as a topping, it belongs in the greater category of condiments because of its diverse uses.
Sprinkles are toppings because you don't really use them for anything other than toppings. Maple syrup can be used in baking, as a dipping sauce, in candies, etc.
If i was looking for maple syrup for a maple glazed ham I wouldn't be going to topping isle.
|
Here's my disclaimer: I don't like pancakes or waffles, especially for breakfast. Sweet stuff makes me feel like hell all day. That being said, there's still a few things to note:
I can purchase maple bacon, or maple sausages for breakfast. I can make oatmeal or granola, or Greek yogurt. In any of these foods, the maple isn't on top. It's an integrated and central part of the dish. You don't put mustard on top of a burger, you put it inside it. In the same way, I don't pour maple syrup on bacon, but I certainly don't mind it when it's already cured with maple.
|
a8b717
|
CMV: Maple Syrup is a topping and not a condiment
|
A friend of mine and I have had this debate for years, so I thought I would bring this to Reddit, to see if they can change my view. I argue that maple syrup is a topping and not a condiment. I feel like it is a topping because it is used sparingly on only a few different food products and is normally found on top of these items, thus making it a topping. My feeling is that a condiment is something that is used a lot more commonly, like ketchup or mustard.
The definitions don't help much:
Topping: a layer of food poured or spread over a base of a different type of food to add flavor.
Condiment: a substance such as salt or ketchup that is used to add flavor to food.
My friend has pointed out that he has seen syrup on the condiment isle at a grocery store, but I have seen the opposite as well, as I found syrup in the topping isle of my local Kroger. It is obvious there is some societal disagreement as to where maple syrup stands, but I am sure that it is a topping and not a condiment. Change my view.
| 1,545,407,103
|
capta1n_sarcasm
|
ec9fdus
|
ec9et7w
| 1
| 0
|
CMV: Reproduction is not mainly a social construct.
Hello my redditors, so I've been having various intellectual discussions and recently, I thought critically and read some articles on this matter. So I found out that over the past several years, fertility scientists have been working on a new fertility treatment that has the potential to allow more infertile people to produce biological offspring. This technology is called *in vitro gemetogenesis* or IVG for short. It would involve the extraction of human cells such as skin or muscle cells, which would then be transformed into pluripotent stem cells through exposure to certain chemicals. Once that is completed. The pluripotent stem cells would then get exposed to another set of chemicals that would cause them to transform into gametes (either sperm or egg cells).
Once the egg or sperm cells are formed, then the egg/sperm would be paired with an opposite gamete from the other prospective biological parent. This would allow people who are sterilized due to certain medical conditions to produce biological children of their own. In addition, *in vitro gametogenesis* in theory would allow couples where at least one is considered LGBT+ to have biological children of their own.
---
* Scenario A: Through IVG, a male same-sex couple (both are cisgender) can have biological children through parent A having their skin cells extracted and converted into an egg cell through *induced pluripotent stem cell treatment*. Sperm cells are extracted from parent B through ejaculation. IVG produced egg cell and natural sperm are then paired for fertilization through IVF.
* Scenario B: Through IVG, a female same-sex couple (both are cisgender) can have biological children through parent A having their skin cells extracted and converted into sperm cells through *induced pluripotent stem cell treatment*. An egg cell are extracted from parent B through an incision. IVG produced sperm cells and natural sperm are then paired for fertilization through IVF.
* Secnario C: Through IVG, a heterosexual couple where one partner is a cisgender male and the other is a transgender female (both are assigned male at birth) can have biological children through the mother having her skin cells extracted and converted into an egg cell through *induced pluripotent stem cell treatment*. Sperm cells are extracted from parent B through ejaculation. IVG produced egg cell and natural sperm are then paired for fertilization through IVF.
---
Now that I have explained what IVG is and assumed that you have a basic understanding of human reproduction (if you don't, please refer to the sources), lets move on to my view.
Recently, there have been sociologists at universities making the argument that human reproduction is a social construct (an idea, custom, or act that is created by a society and exists only in the confines of human civilization). While some have stated that many parts of human reproduction are biologically constructed, there are those that downplay the biological aspects of reproduction to make it seem that reproduction is mainly a social construct. I think that those who use the premise *human reproduction is mainly a social construct* are also arguing that *if something is a social construct, then its definition can change over time (malleable)*.
I think that calling human reproduction primarily a social construct is very problematic. My reasoning behind this is that human reproduction is an essential part of the development of new human life and what biologically distinguishes *the majority* of males and females. To call human reproduction a social construct would be to belittle, degrade, and downplay the value and worth of human dignity and life.
For instance, if people had an affordable and accessible way to reproduce through artificial means, then people would then decide to sterilize themselves through artificial means in order to engage ins casual sexual activity without the fear of unwanted pregnancy. If that were to take place, then more people would view sex *merely* as a means of sexual gratification than reproduction. If human reproduction was primarily a social construct, that the definition of human reproduction can change over time, then someone can use the premise that *human reproduction is mainly a social construct* as an argument for the legalization and moral affirmation of IVG.
* Note: There was actually a dystopian novel called *Brave New World* by Aldous Huxley who depicted the majority (three-quarters) in the fictional world as infertile. Since ways of artificial procreation have already been made, the government (Big Brother) didn't see the need for most women to have natural fertility. In addition, in *Brave New World*, the dystopian nation had already developed the technology for artificial gestation incubators. By decoupling sex with procreation, the women in the society gradually lost their role in being the nurturing and caring mothers and mainly shifted their view on sex from being an end of itself to a means to an end.
I however understand that different people view issues like this in different lights and as part of my resolution for 2017, I would like to open dialogue to people with dissenting views because I do not believe that respectful disagreement is hate. So, without further ado, please try to change my view.
---
### Sources
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/16/health/ivg-reproductive-technology.html
http://anthropology.msu.edu/anp270-fs2012/2013/10/29/social-construction-fo-reproduction/
http://anthropology.msu.edu/anp270-fs2012/2013/10/29/week-10-social-construction-of-reproduction-2/
https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/you-won-t-believe-what-baby-making-science-could-soon-n714411
|
> While some have stated that many parts of human reproduction are biologically constructed, there are those that downplay the biological aspects of reproduction to make it seem that reproduction is mainly a social construct.
I bet the trouble people in this thread will have. Is to exactly imagine what you mean, since not many people are versed with this argument. And where it "starts" and where it "ends".
For example. Is eating social construct? Many would say no, taking in sustenance is biological necesity.
What about eating processed sugary food? Many here would say yes. But Does that therefore mean therefore that human bodies did not evolve in a way to view sugar as high value sustenance and adds countless mental loopholes in order to force you to eat it?
If yes, does that make it entirely biological? And diminishes this the social construct entirely? I mean, what is the answer? Must the biology be entirely irrelevant? Or irrelevant to what degree?
I would say your definition of "characteristics existing only in one civilization" is great at drawing a hard line between biology / social construct. According to your definition eating sugary foods would absolutely be social construct. Since many other societies aren't used to this diet.
Okay, so about human reproduction. We as a human race at on a point that we could for example forget "theoretically" natural human reproducition all together. Why not have 100% pregnancies to be in-vitro-fertilized? The egg being fertilized manually in a laboratory dish outside of womb, then implanted into a womb?
Hell, let's look further in future. Where human womb won't be even necessary. In such a scenario, it doesn't strike me as impossible that one nation could adopt this method of reproduction to bolster declining birth rates for example. Which other nations would not do.
Which would if I'm not mistaken make it by your definition a social construct.
>o call human reproduction a social construct would be to belittle, degrade, and downplay the value and worth of human dignity and life.
But that's irrelevant isn't it? It's the "Feels before reals" argument. Which in past mainly religious people used. Make it it sound, as if ancknwoledging that humans are nothing special "just a tiny blip on a ball of dirt hurling through space, not affecting anything else" is somehow diminishing our sense of worth.
Bullshit. Ancknowledging the fact that we are just a dirty mammals sharing less more than 90% DNA similarities with chimpanzee's. Does absolutely not diminishes of who we are. And if it does, so what? It doesn't changes the facts.
>For instance, if people had an affordable and accessible way to reproduce through artificial means, then people would then decide to sterilize themselves through artificial means in order to engage ins casual sexual activity without the fear of unwanted pregnancy. If that were to take place, then more people would view sex merely as a means of sexual gratification than reproduction.
Sex is already viewed as a means of sexual gratification rather than reproduction. In fact in the civilized world birth rates plumit rappidly. It's because we have the luxury of exploring our sexuality that we see it that way. The weird thing is, why do you view it as something bad?
> If human reproduction was primarily a social construct, that the definition of human reproduction can change over time, then someone can use the premise that human reproduction is mainly a social construct as an argument for the legalization and moral affirmation of IVG.
First your argument goes backwards. Instead of following evidence to figure out what thte human reproduction even is. You are trying to define human reproduction in a way, it concurs to some sort of agenda (which to you is some sort of Anti IVG), which is bad?
I don't even know why it is bad. You only assume it is bad, and therefore we need ot redefine what human reproduction is in order to somehow deciding other forms of reproductions are not IVG?
it doesn't make any sense. Why is IVG bad? Why is IVG as a main source of human reproduction bad if it brings some sort of benefit? And why would you want less options in human reproduction?
>Note: There was actually a dystopian novel called Brave New World by Aldous Huxley who depicted the majority (three-quarters) in the fictional world as infertile. Since ways of artificial procreation have already been made, the government (Big Brother) didn't see the need for most women to have natural fertility. In addition, in Brave New World, the dystopian nation had already developed the technology for artificial gestation incubators. By decoupling sex with procreation, the women in the society gradually lost their role in being the nurturing and caring mothers and mainly shifted their view on sex from being an end of itself to a means to an end.
Okay, would it change your mind. if I came up with a story of a human future where our ideals of freedom and justice and "everything else you hold as morally important" we perfected to astoundingly high levels. And we use IVG as main source of human reproduction, rather than taking risks with old fashioned human reproduction?
Why is that bad?
|
You're misrepresenting the position, slightly. For example one of the authors you reference argues that "although there are evident biological components to reproduction, there are many characteristics that are created by society." She clearly acknowledges the biological roles of the sexes and how we are equipped to perform those roles. However, her argument identifies those aspects of reproduction that aren't based in biology- namely inequality, politics and societies interpretation of female biology. Although it's hard to delve into the crux of the author's argument without a primary source- I'm assuming you haven't read the primary source either.
It is undeniable that sex, including reproduction, are woven into the fabric of every society. Biology doesn't tell women when they can have sex, set an appropriate age for having children, or dictate how many men a woman can have children with, society does. Irrespective of how we feel towards certain behaviours, our perceptions stem from our understanding of the world we live in and our ever-evolving sense of civilisation.
In the context of your argument, a woman being branded a slut for having children with four different men isn't a biological fact, but a socially constructed consequence designed to promote monogamy and one way of life another. The consequence of being branded a slut and essentially outcast as a pariah effectively shapes how the majority of women approach reproduction. What is deemed desirable will, of course, vary depending on the society, particularly the makeup of the leadership, economic and other realities therein.
I don't get your test tube point. If technology advances to such a point that sex is no longer required for reproduction and is had purely for pleasure what significant consequences do you envision? Aside from the abandonment of theological practices, of course.
|
6qg2ec
|
CMV: Reproduction is not mainly a social construct.
|
Hello my redditors, so I've been having various intellectual discussions and recently, I thought critically and read some articles on this matter. So I found out that over the past several years, fertility scientists have been working on a new fertility treatment that has the potential to allow more infertile people to produce biological offspring. This technology is called *in vitro gemetogenesis* or IVG for short. It would involve the extraction of human cells such as skin or muscle cells, which would then be transformed into pluripotent stem cells through exposure to certain chemicals. Once that is completed. The pluripotent stem cells would then get exposed to another set of chemicals that would cause them to transform into gametes (either sperm or egg cells).
Once the egg or sperm cells are formed, then the egg/sperm would be paired with an opposite gamete from the other prospective biological parent. This would allow people who are sterilized due to certain medical conditions to produce biological children of their own. In addition, *in vitro gametogenesis* in theory would allow couples where at least one is considered LGBT+ to have biological children of their own.
---
* Scenario A: Through IVG, a male same-sex couple (both are cisgender) can have biological children through parent A having their skin cells extracted and converted into an egg cell through *induced pluripotent stem cell treatment*. Sperm cells are extracted from parent B through ejaculation. IVG produced egg cell and natural sperm are then paired for fertilization through IVF.
* Scenario B: Through IVG, a female same-sex couple (both are cisgender) can have biological children through parent A having their skin cells extracted and converted into sperm cells through *induced pluripotent stem cell treatment*. An egg cell are extracted from parent B through an incision. IVG produced sperm cells and natural sperm are then paired for fertilization through IVF.
* Secnario C: Through IVG, a heterosexual couple where one partner is a cisgender male and the other is a transgender female (both are assigned male at birth) can have biological children through the mother having her skin cells extracted and converted into an egg cell through *induced pluripotent stem cell treatment*. Sperm cells are extracted from parent B through ejaculation. IVG produced egg cell and natural sperm are then paired for fertilization through IVF.
---
Now that I have explained what IVG is and assumed that you have a basic understanding of human reproduction (if you don't, please refer to the sources), lets move on to my view.
Recently, there have been sociologists at universities making the argument that human reproduction is a social construct (an idea, custom, or act that is created by a society and exists only in the confines of human civilization). While some have stated that many parts of human reproduction are biologically constructed, there are those that downplay the biological aspects of reproduction to make it seem that reproduction is mainly a social construct. I think that those who use the premise *human reproduction is mainly a social construct* are also arguing that *if something is a social construct, then its definition can change over time (malleable)*.
I think that calling human reproduction primarily a social construct is very problematic. My reasoning behind this is that human reproduction is an essential part of the development of new human life and what biologically distinguishes *the majority* of males and females. To call human reproduction a social construct would be to belittle, degrade, and downplay the value and worth of human dignity and life.
For instance, if people had an affordable and accessible way to reproduce through artificial means, then people would then decide to sterilize themselves through artificial means in order to engage ins casual sexual activity without the fear of unwanted pregnancy. If that were to take place, then more people would view sex *merely* as a means of sexual gratification than reproduction. If human reproduction was primarily a social construct, that the definition of human reproduction can change over time, then someone can use the premise that *human reproduction is mainly a social construct* as an argument for the legalization and moral affirmation of IVG.
* Note: There was actually a dystopian novel called *Brave New World* by Aldous Huxley who depicted the majority (three-quarters) in the fictional world as infertile. Since ways of artificial procreation have already been made, the government (Big Brother) didn't see the need for most women to have natural fertility. In addition, in *Brave New World*, the dystopian nation had already developed the technology for artificial gestation incubators. By decoupling sex with procreation, the women in the society gradually lost their role in being the nurturing and caring mothers and mainly shifted their view on sex from being an end of itself to a means to an end.
I however understand that different people view issues like this in different lights and as part of my resolution for 2017, I would like to open dialogue to people with dissenting views because I do not believe that respectful disagreement is hate. So, without further ado, please try to change my view.
---
### Sources
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/16/health/ivg-reproductive-technology.html
http://anthropology.msu.edu/anp270-fs2012/2013/10/29/social-construction-fo-reproduction/
http://anthropology.msu.edu/anp270-fs2012/2013/10/29/week-10-social-construction-of-reproduction-2/
https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/you-won-t-believe-what-baby-making-science-could-soon-n714411
| 1,501,397,511
|
Questyman
|
dkxbdgl
|
dkx6uc3
| 3
| 1
|
CMV: Students enrolled in public schools should receive the same education, regardless of their religious beliefs.
I am an elementary school music teacher. I serve a school of about 700 students and I teach every single one of them. This will be my 2nd year teaching elementary age students who are required to have music, art, physical education, computer, and library classes once a week as part of their education.
I was approached by a few of the teachers at my school this past week to let me know about their students who are Jehova's Witnesses. I've done some research to learn more about their beliefs, practices, etc. As a teacher, I feel that is is important that students aren't singled out due to their (or their family's) religious practices. Since music is incredibly diverse, our standards require that we instruct students how music is related to history and culture. This leaves which cultures and parts of history to the teacher's discretion as to what should be taught.
At Halloween, I have LOTS of students who can't sing songs about Halloween because their parents don't want them to learn about witches, black magic, witchcraft, superstitions, etc. I use a state-based curriculum and it NEVER tells students to practice or celebrate any of these things, but instead mentions them in a humorous light.
Last year during the holiday season, I did an "Around The World in 80 Days" unit that taught students about holidays celebrated around the world and some of the songs and dances from different countries. We never actually celebrated these holidays but we did listen to songs and talk about what others did to celebrate.
EDIT: Just to mention, I have ALWAYS provided alternate assignments for students who are unable to participate and have found ways for students to take part in all lessons so they don't feel left out. However, there have been times where the modifications haven't been substantial enough and I have been told that the student needs to leave my class or be given headphones so that they don't hear the music/songs being played.
After consulting with many other teachers, a lot of them simply provide headphones and a kid-friendly playlist of songs and some worksheets or music books to read while the remainder of the class participates, and the Jehovah's Witness student isn't allowed to participate.
I don't believe that a parent should be able to enroll their child in a public school then dictate what their child can and cannot learn. EDIT: I think it's wrong to ask teachers to omit parts of their curriculum or change it entirely to omit certain items for all students simply to ensure that one student is included. This is precisely what private, home, and online schools are for. Change my view.
TLDR: As a music teacher, it is important that I teach students about songs from different cultures and world views. Students who are Jehovah's Witnesses often cannot participate due to their beliefs. I don't think it is right to ask the teachers to change their curriculum for all students so that one can participate.
EDITED TWICE TO CLARIFY CONTENT
|
I think what the previous poster is trying to say, is that public school is available by law for all, and it is a state run institution. The 1st amendment days the government cannot restrict a person's exercise of religion, and schools are government institutions. A student being forced to participate in something at a public school which violates their religious beliefs is tantamount to the government restricting free exercise.
As a comparison, the pledge of allegiance is elective as well.
Saying that in order to not have their constitutional right to free exercise violated, they must pay for private school or homeschooling materials is *in itself* a violation of constitutional rights.
(Edited for autocorrect error)
|
You cannot deny the rights of a student to practice their religion. If their religious doctrine calls for them to not participate in some things it is morally wrong for you to force them to do so. This is doubly true if you are a part of the public school system as that means you are a part of the government and that makes you denying them the ability to practice their religion violates the 1st amendment.
Now I do not believe you should completely rework your curriculum either, but you do need to give the student the ability to step out and not be penalized by you for doing so.
|
6xpx85
|
CMV: Students enrolled in public schools should receive the same education, regardless of their religious beliefs.
|
I am an elementary school music teacher. I serve a school of about 700 students and I teach every single one of them. This will be my 2nd year teaching elementary age students who are required to have music, art, physical education, computer, and library classes once a week as part of their education.
I was approached by a few of the teachers at my school this past week to let me know about their students who are Jehova's Witnesses. I've done some research to learn more about their beliefs, practices, etc. As a teacher, I feel that is is important that students aren't singled out due to their (or their family's) religious practices. Since music is incredibly diverse, our standards require that we instruct students how music is related to history and culture. This leaves which cultures and parts of history to the teacher's discretion as to what should be taught.
At Halloween, I have LOTS of students who can't sing songs about Halloween because their parents don't want them to learn about witches, black magic, witchcraft, superstitions, etc. I use a state-based curriculum and it NEVER tells students to practice or celebrate any of these things, but instead mentions them in a humorous light.
Last year during the holiday season, I did an "Around The World in 80 Days" unit that taught students about holidays celebrated around the world and some of the songs and dances from different countries. We never actually celebrated these holidays but we did listen to songs and talk about what others did to celebrate.
EDIT: Just to mention, I have ALWAYS provided alternate assignments for students who are unable to participate and have found ways for students to take part in all lessons so they don't feel left out. However, there have been times where the modifications haven't been substantial enough and I have been told that the student needs to leave my class or be given headphones so that they don't hear the music/songs being played.
After consulting with many other teachers, a lot of them simply provide headphones and a kid-friendly playlist of songs and some worksheets or music books to read while the remainder of the class participates, and the Jehovah's Witness student isn't allowed to participate.
I don't believe that a parent should be able to enroll their child in a public school then dictate what their child can and cannot learn. EDIT: I think it's wrong to ask teachers to omit parts of their curriculum or change it entirely to omit certain items for all students simply to ensure that one student is included. This is precisely what private, home, and online schools are for. Change my view.
TLDR: As a music teacher, it is important that I teach students about songs from different cultures and world views. Students who are Jehovah's Witnesses often cannot participate due to their beliefs. I don't think it is right to ask the teachers to change their curriculum for all students so that one can participate.
EDITED TWICE TO CLARIFY CONTENT
| 1,504,396,969
|
Flytly
|
dmhmrzy
|
dmhm29p
| 12
| 5
|
CMV: In TCG's, the solution to free cards that produce raw card advantage is to introduce "completely useless cards" as a deckbuilding requirement
**EDIT: Thanks for replying, everyone! I've given plenty of deltas to acknowledge how weak my view is. Hopefully I've gotten to everyone already! I apologize if I missed your comment.**
This is a rather weak view of mine. I only really began thinking about it after watching a video yesterday on Pot of Greed.
The scope of this view applies only to TCG's with rather low card volatility. Notably, Pokémon TCG is not within the scope, due to how easily cards are accessed in that game.
If you've ever played Yu-Gi-Oh, you likely know about the card Pot of Greed. You know, the one that everyone memes about. It allows you to draw two cards from your deck, for free, by using up the Pot of Greed card itself. This is +1 card advantage for no cost.
Such huge card advantage on a single free card is problematic. Since it's free, it can be stocked into every deck, lowering the deckbuilding requirement from 40 to 39 cards. As I understand it, it's because of this that Pot of Greed is currently banned in Yu-Gi-Oh competitive play.
My solution to this is to have these cards be legal (either restricted or not), but to force extra cards to be put in the deck as part of deck construction to compensate for having a lower probability of getting the cards needed to win. To avoid having the extra cards be significant enough to the point where they can also contribute to a win, these extra cards would be completely useless "Dud" cards.
I actually have much more knowledge with Magic than with Yu-Gi-Oh, so the remainder of this post will use Magic terminology. It can also be applied to Yu-Gi-Oh with its equivalent terms and game elements.
Magic's Divination does the following:
>Divination {2}{U}
>Sorcery
>Draw two cards.
The free, would-be-legal version would be something like this:
>Free-Divination {0}
>Sorcery
>If ~ is in your deck, shuffle in ten (arbitrary number) Dud cards from outside the game before the game begins.
>Draw two cards.
The Dud cards put into the deck would reduce the chances of drawing the cards needed for the relevant strategy to win.
Here are the functional points on how Dud cards would work:
* They have no characteristics whatsoever, not even name. Effects that refer to name can't refer to "Dud" as a name.
* They can be discarded, exiled, and put back into the library. However, these actions are completely invisible to the game, and do not trigger the relevant abilities. In addition, they cannot be willingly discarded, exiled, or put into the library by their owner; an effect must do this to the card without the owner's input. Notably, the owner of a Dud card can't discard it due to maximum hand size.
* They are considered cards, so they increase hand size and library size by 1 for relevant effects.
* As a special action, the owner of a Dud card may forfeit a land play to remove a Dud card in their hand from the game completely. This is distinct from exiling the Dud card.
* Dud cards can't be cast or be on the battlefield. They are put into their owner's graveyard immediately as a state-based action.
Logistical points:
* Like with all other cards, whether to include these cards, or how they function, may be altered depending on a particular casual group's prior agreements.
* In a tournament, it is the deck owner's responsibility to ensure any accompanying Dud cards are in the deck alongside the associated free cards. If a player is deck-checked in the middle of a game and the player's deck is illegal, they will be punished with the usual punishments for an illegal deck (or higher, if appropriate).
* Dud cards removed from the game via the special action are to be shuffled back in between games in a match.
* If a free card is somehow no longer in a deck but is also not in a player's sideboard, any Dud cards that may still be in the deck remain in the deck.
* If a free card is put into the sideboard, the associated Dud cards may be removed from the deck if desired. Technically, a player would be allowed to put in as many Dud cards they wish into their deck without penalty, as long as the minimum required is in the deck.
* Dud cards take zero sideboard space.
If I recall correctly, some digital card games already have some notion of Dud cards. I think Hearthstone has some cards that put useless cards in hand?
To qualify for a delta, you must specifically explain why this balance implementation of otherwise-broken cards is bad. Convincing me that one of my functional or logistical points should be changed might also qualify as a delta. I am aware that there are other mechanisms for making sure cards aren't always drawn (such as "Flip N coins, draw one for each heads"), but I am more concerned with the viability of this implementation in this post.
As it happens, I am extensively familiar with Magic's non-tournament rule set, so if there needs to be any clarifications to the functional points in order for your argument to work, please do ask.
Lastly, I am on mobile, so my response time may be rather slow.
CMV!
|
I'm also more familiar with MTG than Yugioh, but I've played both enough to know this cannot work. The main reason is for these duds to be fully "invisible" they simply cannot exist at all.
Some examples:
* Muka Muka (Yugioh) benefits from cards in your hand. If you cannot discard duds due to max had size, this gives you a second benefit instead of penalty for duds.
* Battle of Wits (MTG) let's you win by having lots of cards in your deck. By having a free divination + duds, you again get two for one in pumping up deck size and drawing capacity.
A second reason not to do this is the future. By having these duds, all future cards must be designed with them in mind. That means cool cards like battle of wits need to take these duds into consideration and balance around them. Maybe instead of 200 required we'll see 250 or 300. That restricts the viable decks that can play that strategy to require the free card instead of just being an option.
|
Well in your example divination already had a coat with it so it wasn’t really free. That mana was the cost. Since it’s magic it’s a cost that is probably balanced. Magic has gotten pretty good at balancing things like that. Your change on that one just changes the cost and probably in a way that makes it useless.
Pot of greed was a mistake. That’s why it’s banned. Card games are always going to have those kind of screw ups. They usually do try to make it so that there are rarely “free” cards that are just an instant stick into your deck because they give you cards for free type thing.
Your proposed solution deals with the aftermath but if they had realized it was a bad idea at the time they wouldn’t have made the card the way it was.
Like magic it generally tries to balance those draw cards with an appropriate mana cost. Balancing is hard.
Hearthstone did have a free card but they then cut its effect in half. So that it gave you a little mana advantage at the cost of a card. Before it gave you too much free.
|
9fa2fg
|
CMV: In TCG's, the solution to free cards that produce raw card advantage is to introduce "completely useless cards" as a deckbuilding requirement
|
**EDIT: Thanks for replying, everyone! I've given plenty of deltas to acknowledge how weak my view is. Hopefully I've gotten to everyone already! I apologize if I missed your comment.**
This is a rather weak view of mine. I only really began thinking about it after watching a video yesterday on Pot of Greed.
The scope of this view applies only to TCG's with rather low card volatility. Notably, Pokémon TCG is not within the scope, due to how easily cards are accessed in that game.
If you've ever played Yu-Gi-Oh, you likely know about the card Pot of Greed. You know, the one that everyone memes about. It allows you to draw two cards from your deck, for free, by using up the Pot of Greed card itself. This is +1 card advantage for no cost.
Such huge card advantage on a single free card is problematic. Since it's free, it can be stocked into every deck, lowering the deckbuilding requirement from 40 to 39 cards. As I understand it, it's because of this that Pot of Greed is currently banned in Yu-Gi-Oh competitive play.
My solution to this is to have these cards be legal (either restricted or not), but to force extra cards to be put in the deck as part of deck construction to compensate for having a lower probability of getting the cards needed to win. To avoid having the extra cards be significant enough to the point where they can also contribute to a win, these extra cards would be completely useless "Dud" cards.
I actually have much more knowledge with Magic than with Yu-Gi-Oh, so the remainder of this post will use Magic terminology. It can also be applied to Yu-Gi-Oh with its equivalent terms and game elements.
Magic's Divination does the following:
>Divination {2}{U}
>Sorcery
>Draw two cards.
The free, would-be-legal version would be something like this:
>Free-Divination {0}
>Sorcery
>If ~ is in your deck, shuffle in ten (arbitrary number) Dud cards from outside the game before the game begins.
>Draw two cards.
The Dud cards put into the deck would reduce the chances of drawing the cards needed for the relevant strategy to win.
Here are the functional points on how Dud cards would work:
* They have no characteristics whatsoever, not even name. Effects that refer to name can't refer to "Dud" as a name.
* They can be discarded, exiled, and put back into the library. However, these actions are completely invisible to the game, and do not trigger the relevant abilities. In addition, they cannot be willingly discarded, exiled, or put into the library by their owner; an effect must do this to the card without the owner's input. Notably, the owner of a Dud card can't discard it due to maximum hand size.
* They are considered cards, so they increase hand size and library size by 1 for relevant effects.
* As a special action, the owner of a Dud card may forfeit a land play to remove a Dud card in their hand from the game completely. This is distinct from exiling the Dud card.
* Dud cards can't be cast or be on the battlefield. They are put into their owner's graveyard immediately as a state-based action.
Logistical points:
* Like with all other cards, whether to include these cards, or how they function, may be altered depending on a particular casual group's prior agreements.
* In a tournament, it is the deck owner's responsibility to ensure any accompanying Dud cards are in the deck alongside the associated free cards. If a player is deck-checked in the middle of a game and the player's deck is illegal, they will be punished with the usual punishments for an illegal deck (or higher, if appropriate).
* Dud cards removed from the game via the special action are to be shuffled back in between games in a match.
* If a free card is somehow no longer in a deck but is also not in a player's sideboard, any Dud cards that may still be in the deck remain in the deck.
* If a free card is put into the sideboard, the associated Dud cards may be removed from the deck if desired. Technically, a player would be allowed to put in as many Dud cards they wish into their deck without penalty, as long as the minimum required is in the deck.
* Dud cards take zero sideboard space.
If I recall correctly, some digital card games already have some notion of Dud cards. I think Hearthstone has some cards that put useless cards in hand?
To qualify for a delta, you must specifically explain why this balance implementation of otherwise-broken cards is bad. Convincing me that one of my functional or logistical points should be changed might also qualify as a delta. I am aware that there are other mechanisms for making sure cards aren't always drawn (such as "Flip N coins, draw one for each heads"), but I am more concerned with the viability of this implementation in this post.
As it happens, I am extensively familiar with Magic's non-tournament rule set, so if there needs to be any clarifications to the functional points in order for your argument to work, please do ask.
Lastly, I am on mobile, so my response time may be rather slow.
CMV!
| 1,536,775,125
|
Criminal_of_Thought
|
e5ux1ow
|
e5uwadu
| 7
| 2
|
CMV: The 14th Amendment to the United States Constitution defines a citizen, then states that all citizens have equal rights under the law. This means that all "age" laws are unconstitutional.
Here's the actual text of the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution:
> All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
It has long been my contention that this constitutional provision specifically outlaws "age" laws - including driving age, age to purchase alcohol or tobacco products, etc.
If a citizen is a citizen at birth (or naturalization), then their rights and privileges under the law cannot be curtailed without "due process".
The only argument I have heard against this idea is related to "due process" and the government's compelling state interest to not have 3 year olds driving around the city streets. I'm fine with that, but I do think that depriving 18 year olds, for example, from purchasing alcohol amounts to 'collective punishment' for the acts of a few 18 year olds who couldn't handle it.
Perhaps a better approach would be to have people demonstrate, at any age, their ability to drive a car or handle alcohol - then license them for legality.
Lastly, I get that this is a super controversial position, but it's one I have held for the last 40+ years, and has continued well past the age where these laws affect me directly.
I'm willing to be persuaded!
|
> The only argument I have heard against this idea is related to “due process” and the government’s compelling state interest to not have 3 year olds driving around the city streets. I’m fine with that,
Wait how does this not undermine your whole point. You spend several paragraphs taking a very strong view that age restrictions are unconstitutional then you say it’s constitutional for the state to enforce age restrictions for the public good.
Your not disagreeing with concept of age restrictions or the core reasons why we do them. Your only issue is with the specific ages and restrictions.
How do you feel about minors having sex with adults? By the logic in this first half of your post they have this constitutional right. The courts have already ruled that adults have a constitutional right to have sex with each other, so this would extend to ban age restrictions.
Edit: it is also worth clarifying if we are talking about what is right, or about a correct interpretation of the current US constitution, because those don’t always align.
|
If you were able to legally defend this, all that would happen is that the constitution would be changed. Nobody would ever accept not having any restrictions on what kids can do
|
e2ghau
|
CMV: The 14th Amendment to the United States Constitution defines a citizen, then states that all citizens have equal rights under the law. This means that all "age" laws are unconstitutional.
|
Here's the actual text of the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution:
> All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
It has long been my contention that this constitutional provision specifically outlaws "age" laws - including driving age, age to purchase alcohol or tobacco products, etc.
If a citizen is a citizen at birth (or naturalization), then their rights and privileges under the law cannot be curtailed without "due process".
The only argument I have heard against this idea is related to "due process" and the government's compelling state interest to not have 3 year olds driving around the city streets. I'm fine with that, but I do think that depriving 18 year olds, for example, from purchasing alcohol amounts to 'collective punishment' for the acts of a few 18 year olds who couldn't handle it.
Perhaps a better approach would be to have people demonstrate, at any age, their ability to drive a car or handle alcohol - then license them for legality.
Lastly, I get that this is a super controversial position, but it's one I have held for the last 40+ years, and has continued well past the age where these laws affect me directly.
I'm willing to be persuaded!
| 1,574,863,676
|
TonyWrocks
|
f8vagjn
|
f8va726
| 1
| 0
|
CMV: It should not be considered offensive to associate black people with fried chicken or watermelon.
While fried chicken's history in the US has ties to slavery, it is in fact a very popular dish, enjoyed by people of every race and class, and no longer has the connotation of cheap, poor people food or food made from discarded scraps of meat if it ever was. It is a positive association then, if unhealthy, but so is eating tons of red meat and people often venerate steak eating as some kind of desirable tough male activity.
Watermelon is also very popular. In 2017, [it was the 6th most popular fruit](https://www.pma.com/content/articles/2017/05/top-20-fruits-and-vegetables-sold-in-the-us) by volume sold in the US. It doesn't have any negative connotations on its own that I've ever heard of, unlike some fruits with negative metaphors, euphemisms, or imagery (ie. banana/eggplants are sometimes used as a penis substitute, the word "lemon" can be used as a synonym for something disappointing, avocados sometimes seen dismissively as hippie food).
However, when you associate black people with eating fried chicken and watermelon, the automatic reaction is that its offensive. Invite a black person to a BBQ and tell him "we'll have fried chicken and watermelon!" and watch them get offended. If a corporation, unless its KFC or Popeye's, shows black people enthusiastically eating fried chicken, they would be excoriated.
My contention is that because the foods themselves are popular and tasty and universally loved, people should stop being offended by the association of a specific group of people to those foods. While it might be annoying if you're black and someone automatically assumes you like those foods, it should be an annoyance borne from repeated inaccuracy rather than assumed malice.
For example, if someone assumes I'm smart and I'm not, I'll be annoyed if I keep getting asked to solve math problems, but I'd be in the wrong if I get annoyed solely because people think I'm smart, I should feel at least flattered. A similar mistake would be the perception that black men have larger penises. Sure, it would suck if you're a black male with a short or average penis, that might cause some awkwardness when you are with a woman for the first time, but the association itself is positive even if a specific black man can't live up to it.
I'm also not saying this will work in all cases. There are absolutely negative associations society has on some groups and people should be taught not to make those because they actually harm people. Positive associations are helpful even if not every person in that group is accurately described by it. At worse, the association of black people with fried chicken and watermelon is neutral if you don't care for those foods, and should not be reacted to as racist.
|
An inherent problem is the use of the word "race" in the first place to distinguish peoples of the world. It automatically connotes seperateness and differences that give rise to the opportunity to broadly insult or praise.
Basically what I'm saying here is that using the word "race" is itself inherently racist. And a good way to counter the problem is only to refer to humanity as a race as a whole.
There is no single characteristic we can point to and say that only belongs to white people, or people of color alone, etc. There are only overlapping characteristics some groups seem to have more of or less of. And every time you think there's a benefit to grouping a "race" of people under one umbrella you're both leaving out the people not in that group that have that characteristic and the people that otherwise would be in the group that have a characteristic that otherwise excludes them.
Add to that the fact that a taste for foods is likely as much cultural as anything else (isn't vegimite disgusting to those who didn't grow up on it?), using foods to distinguish between racial differences that really aren't there is a terrible idea. It just perpetuates a false separation when we should be concentrating on uniting peoples.
|
> stereotyping people based on race is, generally speaking, offensive, because it’s racist.>
You’re basically saying “it’s bad because it’s bad.”
I disagree with you because we all generalize about a ton of things. You generalize that when the light turns green that it’ll be safe to go. It’s generally safe, but you’re acting on a generalization.
How the fuck can saying a true statement like “rice is a huge part of the Chinese diet” be racist? Sure, there’s gotta be some minority of Chinese that don’t eat rice, but that doesn’t mean it’s not generally true.
People allow generalizations for all kinds of things, even allow people to generalize about their own race, but the reason it’s taboo to generalize about other races is that they don’t trust you to be not racist. That’s an attitude I don’t like. I’m allowed to say “most white people don’t dance well” but if I say something equivalent about another race, people like you will assume the worst and say I’m racist. I know you think you’re improving race relations, but in fact you’re not allowing a level of trust. We should be able to make little digs at each other cause that’s what friends do.
|
9fc1w4
|
CMV: It should not be considered offensive to associate black people with fried chicken or watermelon.
|
While fried chicken's history in the US has ties to slavery, it is in fact a very popular dish, enjoyed by people of every race and class, and no longer has the connotation of cheap, poor people food or food made from discarded scraps of meat if it ever was. It is a positive association then, if unhealthy, but so is eating tons of red meat and people often venerate steak eating as some kind of desirable tough male activity.
Watermelon is also very popular. In 2017, [it was the 6th most popular fruit](https://www.pma.com/content/articles/2017/05/top-20-fruits-and-vegetables-sold-in-the-us) by volume sold in the US. It doesn't have any negative connotations on its own that I've ever heard of, unlike some fruits with negative metaphors, euphemisms, or imagery (ie. banana/eggplants are sometimes used as a penis substitute, the word "lemon" can be used as a synonym for something disappointing, avocados sometimes seen dismissively as hippie food).
However, when you associate black people with eating fried chicken and watermelon, the automatic reaction is that its offensive. Invite a black person to a BBQ and tell him "we'll have fried chicken and watermelon!" and watch them get offended. If a corporation, unless its KFC or Popeye's, shows black people enthusiastically eating fried chicken, they would be excoriated.
My contention is that because the foods themselves are popular and tasty and universally loved, people should stop being offended by the association of a specific group of people to those foods. While it might be annoying if you're black and someone automatically assumes you like those foods, it should be an annoyance borne from repeated inaccuracy rather than assumed malice.
For example, if someone assumes I'm smart and I'm not, I'll be annoyed if I keep getting asked to solve math problems, but I'd be in the wrong if I get annoyed solely because people think I'm smart, I should feel at least flattered. A similar mistake would be the perception that black men have larger penises. Sure, it would suck if you're a black male with a short or average penis, that might cause some awkwardness when you are with a woman for the first time, but the association itself is positive even if a specific black man can't live up to it.
I'm also not saying this will work in all cases. There are absolutely negative associations society has on some groups and people should be taught not to make those because they actually harm people. Positive associations are helpful even if not every person in that group is accurately described by it. At worse, the association of black people with fried chicken and watermelon is neutral if you don't care for those foods, and should not be reacted to as racist.
| 1,536,788,698
|
TimeAll
|
e5vfjxs
|
e5vekkl
| 1
| 0
|
CMV: The 14th Amendment to the United States Constitution defines a citizen, then states that all citizens have equal rights under the law. This means that all "age" laws are unconstitutional.
Here's the actual text of the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution:
> All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
It has long been my contention that this constitutional provision specifically outlaws "age" laws - including driving age, age to purchase alcohol or tobacco products, etc.
If a citizen is a citizen at birth (or naturalization), then their rights and privileges under the law cannot be curtailed without "due process".
The only argument I have heard against this idea is related to "due process" and the government's compelling state interest to not have 3 year olds driving around the city streets. I'm fine with that, but I do think that depriving 18 year olds, for example, from purchasing alcohol amounts to 'collective punishment' for the acts of a few 18 year olds who couldn't handle it.
Perhaps a better approach would be to have people demonstrate, at any age, their ability to drive a car or handle alcohol - then license them for legality.
Lastly, I get that this is a super controversial position, but it's one I have held for the last 40+ years, and has continued well past the age where these laws affect me directly.
I'm willing to be persuaded!
|
>Perhaps a better approach would be to have people demonstrate, at any age, their ability to drive a car or handle alcohol - then license them for legality.
Would you do this for *every* instance of age laws then? Working, pornography, signing contracts, making medical decisions... there's tons of things we could probably scrounge up here. That's a *lot* of tests, and a lot of money going into said tests.
|
The 14th amendment applies to rights laid out in the constitution to all citizens.
There is no right to alcohol, tobacco or anything. If there was an Amendment that stated “all persons shall be able to buy alcohol” then yes - 14th amendment would apply. However, it doesn’t.
|
e2ghau
|
CMV: The 14th Amendment to the United States Constitution defines a citizen, then states that all citizens have equal rights under the law. This means that all "age" laws are unconstitutional.
|
Here's the actual text of the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution:
> All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
It has long been my contention that this constitutional provision specifically outlaws "age" laws - including driving age, age to purchase alcohol or tobacco products, etc.
If a citizen is a citizen at birth (or naturalization), then their rights and privileges under the law cannot be curtailed without "due process".
The only argument I have heard against this idea is related to "due process" and the government's compelling state interest to not have 3 year olds driving around the city streets. I'm fine with that, but I do think that depriving 18 year olds, for example, from purchasing alcohol amounts to 'collective punishment' for the acts of a few 18 year olds who couldn't handle it.
Perhaps a better approach would be to have people demonstrate, at any age, their ability to drive a car or handle alcohol - then license them for legality.
Lastly, I get that this is a super controversial position, but it's one I have held for the last 40+ years, and has continued well past the age where these laws affect me directly.
I'm willing to be persuaded!
| 1,574,863,676
|
TonyWrocks
|
f8va6zt
|
f8va2wh
| 22
| 2
|
CMV: Gay Pride Hurts LGBT People More Than It Helps Them
As a gay teen, I believe that pride and other such events hurt LGBT people more than it helps them.
What I mean by this is that the whole point of pride is to make a big deal about being gay or whatever you call yourself, to shout it loud and be proud. Except that's not what I, or most of my other gay friends actually want. We just want to be accepted into society as regular, everyday people. These events making a big deal about sexuality and acting like it's something to be proud of actively try to place us on a different level to straight people, which is the last thing I want
TLDR; Me and most of the other gay people I talk to just want to be treated like everyone else, and gay pride actively goes against that
CMV
|
If you happen to live in the small corner of the world, where surviving every new day as a gay teen, *doesn't* feel like a special accomplishment for you, a unique experience that sets you apart from straight people, then good for you. Congratulations.
But your experience is not universal. First of all, not everyone at pride parades is a teen. Many of them are people who have spent the formative decades of their lives living in the kind of environment where the burned victims of the UpStairs Lounge gay bar's arson attack have tried to desperately avoid hospitalization, so they employers won't learn that they were at a gay bar and fire them for it.
In the kind of environment, where the White House did it's best for years to avoid admitting that the AIDS epidemic is going on, and taking lives by the tens of thousands, much less to publcize preventive mesures.
For those people, Pride in the face of a violently hateful majority culture that most definitely *didn't want to let them* fit in like everybody else, has represented community, and a backbone of resistance.
And even if you feel that it is different *for you today*, that's still not true for everyone. Today, even in "gay-friendly" countries, LGBT teens are being mercilessly bullied, kicked out of their homes, sent to conversation therapy, raped, or murdered on the account of their identity, regardless of how much they would prefer to just fit in.
For them, surviving every new day, and looking in the mirror with dignity, is a reason for a kind of Pride that straight people don't have to have.
|
I think you're conflating what you want with what lgbt people want. If you don't want to stick out then you don't need to attend. For others, the very affirming and unapologetic nature if pride lets them express sexuality in a way that would otherwise be shamed.
|
6qiwi4
|
CMV: Gay Pride Hurts LGBT People More Than It Helps Them
|
As a gay teen, I believe that pride and other such events hurt LGBT people more than it helps them.
What I mean by this is that the whole point of pride is to make a big deal about being gay or whatever you call yourself, to shout it loud and be proud. Except that's not what I, or most of my other gay friends actually want. We just want to be accepted into society as regular, everyday people. These events making a big deal about sexuality and acting like it's something to be proud of actively try to place us on a different level to straight people, which is the last thing I want
TLDR; Me and most of the other gay people I talk to just want to be treated like everyone else, and gay pride actively goes against that
CMV
| 1,501,438,763
|
Just_an_Elf
|
dkxmeyq
|
dkxm5hl
| 36
| 10
|
CMV: Deportation of illegals isn't really a punishment in the way people breaking the law are punished for doing so
Let me use an analogy to explain this. There are 3 situations a person breaking the law finds themselves in, that occur linearly in time.
A: The situation of the person before they break the law
B: The situation of the person after they break the law but before they are caught.
C: The situation of the person after they are caught, tried and penalized. Usually the penalization is some form of retribution such as imprisonment or in some cases even execution.
When an illegal immigrant is deported, they are simply being reverted back from B to A. They never reach the C situation. Deporting an illegal immigrant is the equivalent of just having a mugger return stolen money to his victim without any jail-time.
|
One important issue you are missing is that when an illegal immigrant is deported they are then barred from entering the US for an extended period of time, putting them in a worse position than before.
|
They way our legal system works is that you are not a criminal until you are convicted of a crime. If the government chooses not to press charges, then they are not criminals and it isn’t relevant.
|
94llwm
|
CMV: Deportation of illegals isn't really a punishment in the way people breaking the law are punished for doing so
|
Let me use an analogy to explain this. There are 3 situations a person breaking the law finds themselves in, that occur linearly in time.
A: The situation of the person before they break the law
B: The situation of the person after they break the law but before they are caught.
C: The situation of the person after they are caught, tried and penalized. Usually the penalization is some form of retribution such as imprisonment or in some cases even execution.
When an illegal immigrant is deported, they are simply being reverted back from B to A. They never reach the C situation. Deporting an illegal immigrant is the equivalent of just having a mugger return stolen money to his victim without any jail-time.
| 1,533,409,872
|
ElephantFool
|
e3m17uq
|
e3lwwzm
| 3
| 0
|
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